1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:21,359 M h. The paper reports that two of the male constitutes to give him 2 00:00:21,359 --> 00:00:54,200 a White Night two of the White House last year. You want answers? 3 00:00:54,359 --> 00:00:58,439 I think I'm entitled. You want answers? What the truth? You can't 4 00:00:58,479 --> 00:01:03,920 handle the truth? Pretty is? Everyone? Welcome to the Nick Bryant Podcast 5 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:11,239 Today. My guest is Jay Dyer and he wrote two books called Esoteric Hollywood 6 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:17,120 and also Esoteric Hollywood Too, which I found to be very edifyed like no 7 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:22,280 other book before it. His works delve deep into the dark, mysterious undertones 8 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:29,239 hidden in Tinseltown. After years of scholarly research, Jay Dyer has compiled his 9 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:34,359 most read essays combining philosophy compared to religion, symbolism, geopolitics, and all 10 00:01:34,439 --> 00:01:40,400 kinds of other dark subject matter. Readers will watch movies with new eyes, 11 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:46,640 able to decipher on their own as the secret medians of cinema are unveiled. 12 00:01:47,799 --> 00:01:51,120 Jay, how you doing today? I'm doing good? Thank you, Nick. 13 00:01:51,159 --> 00:01:53,879 I know we've been talking for a long time about doing a podcast and 14 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:57,159 we finally got around to doing it, and I want to have you come 15 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:00,760 on my channel as well and discuss some of your work. I'll be more 16 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:06,840 than happy to so you get into a lot of esoteric stuff. I read 17 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:14,280 esoteric Hollywood too, but you get into a lot of esoteric stuff in your 18 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:20,840 riding, I think, where you really go below the surface to show an 19 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,560 esoteric occult side. But with these two movies, there are kind of no 20 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:31,400 brainers as far as the occult side. And you can talk about them in 21 00:02:31,439 --> 00:02:38,240 your esoteric Hollywood too, you say, littered with Masonic and al chemical enter 22 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:43,080 imagery. The Ninth Gate is a film about a cult initiation as much as 23 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:49,039 I argued Kubrick's Eyes Wide Shut is. So let's talk about The Ninth Gate 24 00:02:49,159 --> 00:02:53,879 and Eyes Wide Shut. Yeah, those are good two pairs. They go 25 00:02:53,960 --> 00:03:00,199 together. They're very close in terms of timeline when they came out in a 26 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:02,680 few years of one another. There's a lot of similar scenes going on. 27 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:09,479 So you know, I don't know what type of relationship Kubrick or Roman Polanski 28 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:13,800 had if they if they knew each other very well, but both scenes, 29 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:16,960 you know, both films have the themes of sort of a cult initiation, 30 00:03:17,199 --> 00:03:23,120 Satanic groups running and things in the background reaching to very high levels of nobility, 31 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:30,439 and and you know European dynasties and you know these sort of quests that 32 00:03:30,479 --> 00:03:34,080 the protagonist is on to figure out what's really going on, Who's running this 33 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:39,759 stuff, What's what's a true Satanic initiation or a true Satanic philosophy? I 34 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:44,479 think. But but of course they diverge in very distinct ways as well. 35 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:47,759 They're very different films and other respects. But yeah, I think you probably 36 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:53,439 couldn't think. I couldn't think of two better examples of you know, accult 37 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:58,879 Hollywood films other than Ninthgate and I wad Shot. So in the first book, 38 00:03:58,879 --> 00:04:01,879 I devoted think about one hundred and eighty ninety hundred pages to Kubrick, 39 00:04:02,039 --> 00:04:08,199 and I think the first significant essay as the Eyes Wideshut essay. I put 40 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,599 a lot of time and effort into studying that film, particularly about eight or 41 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:16,680 nine years ago, because I was in college and taking film classes. We 42 00:04:16,759 --> 00:04:21,720 had a class on Oliver Stone. That's actually what kind of introduced me to 43 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:29,399 a lot of trying day books. I ended up coming across the Senator Forces 44 00:04:29,439 --> 00:04:31,319 trilogy. I read the whole trilogy, and that kind of piqued my interest, 45 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:38,000 as well as other books i'd read on the connections between Hollywood cults and 46 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:42,639 intelligence agencies, and there hadn't been a whole lot of mainline literature at that 47 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:47,759 time. You could really only find a few academics like Tricia Jenkins and Donald 48 00:04:47,879 --> 00:04:50,879 I forget the guy's name, but there's a book called Operation Hollywood, and 49 00:04:51,199 --> 00:04:56,759 those really kind of just scratched the surface when it comes to the Pentagon and 50 00:04:56,759 --> 00:05:01,720 the CIA having kind of liaison offices to Salt on various film projects. But 51 00:05:01,759 --> 00:05:04,759 I really wanted to go deeper into you know, well, it seems like 52 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:10,839 quite a few of these actors have pretty consistent intelligence connections. Seems like some 53 00:05:10,959 --> 00:05:16,160 famous people in Hollywood have even been spies at a high level, a listers. 54 00:05:16,199 --> 00:05:20,160 Even so, the more that I dove into it, you just it 55 00:05:20,199 --> 00:05:25,879 turns out there's a whole rabbit hole of information about the connection between these realms. 56 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:30,240 And I think certain movies also are really windows into that world as well. 57 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:34,279 And these two, these two films are great examples. It's so interesting. 58 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:42,879 Oliver Stone's kid, Sean Stone, made a documentary about the propaganda that 59 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:46,680 Hollywood kicks out about the medical industrial complex, and I was interviewed in that 60 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:54,240 series. Actually it was true documentaries, and I thought it was very elucidating. 61 00:05:55,160 --> 00:06:00,439 So with Kubrick. He's born in the Bronx, does all right as 62 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:04,199 a photographer, starts to do really well as a director, and he goes 63 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:15,759 to the UK and kind of lives almost he's very insulated, and I've always 64 00:06:15,759 --> 00:06:21,199 wondered about that. And then he comes out with eyes wide shut. And 65 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:25,279 what's really interesting about that. The first time I saw it, it was 66 00:06:25,319 --> 00:06:28,959 before I got into the Franklin scandal and all the other crazy stuff that I 67 00:06:28,959 --> 00:06:34,120 write about, and it didn't I just it wouldn't have gotten more than thirty 68 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:39,480 five or forty on the Tomato meter for me Ron Tomato. But after I 69 00:06:39,519 --> 00:06:45,879 got into Franklin and this other stuff, I went, Wow, he is 70 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:51,000 capturing a reality that no one has yet captured in the way that he has 71 00:06:51,079 --> 00:06:55,439 captured it. Yeah, I think you're right. I think you know. 72 00:06:55,480 --> 00:07:00,920 I remember hearing about your work many years ago when I heard about other texts 73 00:07:00,959 --> 00:07:05,639 that books that just that discussed similar types of you know, really grewsome subject 74 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:09,439 matter. And I think in the last maybe even eight years, as more 75 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:14,399 and more of these types of things came out with Epstein or with Savile in 76 00:07:14,439 --> 00:07:17,759 the UK, we started to see this pattern that you know, this isn't 77 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:23,639 really conspiracy theory. This is a lot of fact, and it's an unfortunate, 78 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,800 you know way that government's work, which is to utilize compromise and to 79 00:07:27,839 --> 00:07:31,639 be involved in these kinds of high level uh you know, escapades and parties 80 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,600 and whatnot and filming it and all of that. And then so it would 81 00:07:35,639 --> 00:07:41,040 just it just seemed logical to me that if Kubrick has made for example, 82 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:46,279 underage stuff and compromise, it's actually made that a theme in many of his 83 00:07:46,399 --> 00:07:49,839 films, right going back to Lolita, going back to Barry Lyndon, It 84 00:07:49,959 --> 00:07:54,839 just seemed logical to me that when we dissect something like Eyes White Shot, 85 00:07:54,879 --> 00:07:57,439 we're going to notice the same types of patterns. We're going to see, 86 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:01,560 you know, the the shop, the costume shop owner. Right, He's 87 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:07,560 got lely Sobieski there playing the role of this underage girl who seems to kind 88 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:11,600 of know what's going on in this operation because she's the one that of course 89 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:18,360 tells Bill Harford to wear an ermine cloak, which signifies nobility to roll to 90 00:08:18,399 --> 00:08:24,360 the upper class in the traditional European ideas, So so she knows what's going 91 00:08:24,399 --> 00:08:28,959 on. We see this with her character as just one example, and yeah, 92 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:33,720 I think that that's again why it's emblematic of you know, Kubert was 93 00:08:33,799 --> 00:08:35,720 kind of like you said, he he may have been exposed to some of 94 00:08:35,759 --> 00:08:39,440 this upper class stuff so to speak, when he was in the UK, 95 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:43,840 and then he puts it into this film. People at the time thought the 96 00:08:43,879 --> 00:08:46,600 film was kind of crazy. I remember at the time when it came out, 97 00:08:46,639 --> 00:08:50,480 I was I've always been a film buff, so I remember reading reviews 98 00:08:50,519 --> 00:08:52,600 and it was it was lampooned, and it was just like, this is 99 00:08:52,759 --> 00:08:56,320 is boring, it doesn't make sense, it's irrelevant. But as time has 100 00:08:56,320 --> 00:09:00,960 gone by, I think he's been vindicated that it does make sense. I 101 00:09:01,039 --> 00:09:03,360 agree with that one hundred percent. More and more people that I've talked to 102 00:09:03,639 --> 00:09:13,120 understand eyes wide shut as the occult and various initiation rights are kind of starting 103 00:09:13,159 --> 00:09:22,639 to just merge with the mainstream, or basically on the verge of merging with 104 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:28,240 the with the mainstream. And then you got into They Live, which is 105 00:09:28,279 --> 00:09:33,480 a very interesting movie and I've always liked it. It's about a guy who 106 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:39,960 sees reality when he's living in the matrix. Basically, extraterrestrials have taken over 107 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:46,559 the world, and then they've made everybody Stepford husbands and Stepford wives and Stepford 108 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:52,480 kids. But this one guy can see it, and you say, of 109 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:58,519 they live amazingly. Carpenter's film even reveals the core sign up of Hollywoodism that 110 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:03,960 the narses sistic indulgence of fame and the camera lens can bring fulfillment, probably 111 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:09,919 demonstrated in the television scene with the woman describing her fantasy of being famous and 112 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:18,120 thereby attaining meeting in her life. Yeah, I think Carpenter is interesting. 113 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:22,399 I've always liked John Carpenter's movies. I think the film is an allegory. 114 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:26,480 I don't as far as I know, Carpenter doesn't believe in any sort of 115 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:31,879 supernatural or any kind of alien to existence. So I think he's using the 116 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:37,399 imagery of the alien as kind of a symbolic, allegorical description of the ruling 117 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:41,000 class and the tendency that they have to undermine us in ways that we wouldn't 118 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:46,679 expect, even to the point of perhaps even utilizing signals and signals intelligence and 119 00:10:46,759 --> 00:10:52,240 EMFVLF stuff that we don't even know about, probably in the mainstream at a 120 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,159 very high level. And I think there's some truth to that. I'm not 121 00:10:56,159 --> 00:10:58,679 trying to go full crazy person, but I mean there are you know, 122 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:07,039 military studies research into that kind of stuff. So I think probably Carbenter had 123 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:11,200 heard of that kind of of a of a weapon that existed or that weaponization 124 00:11:11,399 --> 00:11:16,639 going on, and then he expands it into the consumer culture into uh two, 125 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:22,559 mass media. And so I've always appreciated directors and writers that use the 126 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:26,240 medium that they that they use as a means to critique that very medium. 127 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:31,799 Right, So you know, when we talk about the military industrial complex or 128 00:11:31,799 --> 00:11:37,679 Hollywood being connected to the CIA, excuse me, CIA ME, and mild 129 00:11:37,919 --> 00:11:41,360 complex being connected to Hollywood and music, even what we start to see is 130 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:46,679 that it's for a reason. It's not it's not just trying to make a 131 00:11:46,759 --> 00:11:50,480 quick book. It's actually a huge part of social engineering. So like at 132 00:11:50,519 --> 00:11:54,399 the beginning of the second book, I cited the National Security Cinema book where 133 00:11:54,399 --> 00:12:01,519 they talked about thousands of declassified hundreds of pages of doc documents that were declassified, 134 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:07,440 discussing tons and tons of TV shows, hundreds of examples and movies where 135 00:12:07,519 --> 00:12:11,919 you know, the Pentagon, the deep State had had specific messages placed into 136 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:16,840 those films. So even things as innocuous those Cupcake Wars or Hawaii five. 137 00:12:16,919 --> 00:12:20,279 Oh. I mean, it goes way back. You've got the messaging going 138 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:26,440 on for the purpose of defending the overall superstructure of the regime. And I 139 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:31,240 can think even when I was a kid, my dad was in the Navy, 140 00:12:31,279 --> 00:12:33,320 and I remember all the Navy movies that came out in the nineteen eighties, 141 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,960 Top Gun, you know, and there was Navy Seals with Charlie Sheen, 142 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:43,039 and there's all this Navy propaganda, military Propagain, that was because Reagan 143 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:48,919 really at that time wanted to beef up America's defenses and the national security state, 144 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:52,240 right, and he did that on purpose. And there was a lot 145 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:56,360 of tie in with the Pentagon at that time, between Hollywood and Pentagon at 146 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:01,799 that time on purpose. So even though we typically think of Hollywood as leftists, 147 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,759 there can also be these phases where there's a lot of militarization military propaganda 148 00:13:05,799 --> 00:13:11,679 as well. And that was kind of an overturning of the previous era of 149 00:13:11,759 --> 00:13:16,799 a lot of you know, Oliver Stone's style films or war films critiquing Vietnam 150 00:13:16,919 --> 00:13:20,000 and war films critiquing you know, apocalypse. Now these kinds of films. 151 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:24,960 Then you get a shift over to the sort of Reagan Neo Connish era of 152 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,840 Hollywood in the nineteen eighties. And so in other words, these are examples 153 00:13:28,879 --> 00:13:33,399 of what you're talking about with with They Live. That are it's being parodied 154 00:13:33,399 --> 00:13:37,879 in the movie, but these are hard, hardcore, real life examples of 155 00:13:37,879 --> 00:13:41,240 what's in the film. Well, you have a number of examples and They 156 00:13:41,279 --> 00:13:50,440 Live. Now propaganda just permeates everything, and you bring in Everard Bates and 157 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:54,840 the tactics that he used. Edward Barnees was the nephew of Sigmund Freud, 158 00:13:54,320 --> 00:14:01,320 and actually Sigmund wasn't doing so good, but Edward Burnees Readnicle Sigmund's books and 159 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,000 he thought, you know, I think I could do something with these books. 160 00:14:05,039 --> 00:14:09,960 And he's considered to be one of the founders of modern pr and actually 161 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:16,480 the United States hired him when we fomented a coup in Guatemala. We wanted 162 00:14:16,519 --> 00:14:22,000 some good PR on that, and so Edward Brene's came to the rescue. 163 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:28,279 And then you will also get into Michael Lachino, and he was a he 164 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:33,840 was an American intelligence He was a Satanist and he wrote a book from ssiop 165 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:43,639 to Mind War, and that book is about not necessarily doing a siop on 166 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:50,519 your enemy, your enemy's populist. It's about doing a siop on your own 167 00:14:50,559 --> 00:14:54,759 populace so you can make them all believe in war. I mean, And 168 00:14:56,000 --> 00:15:03,120 I just found that pretty fascinating that you would stick Yeah, I forgot in 169 00:15:03,159 --> 00:15:05,440 that essay. You're right, I did stick that in there because it was 170 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:13,000 a great example of the what what Carpenter's lampooning or satirizing. But it's also, 171 00:15:13,039 --> 00:15:16,639 like you're pointing out, very serious because you know in that essay, 172 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:20,399 towards the end of it, in the footnotes, uh A Keno and his 173 00:15:20,519 --> 00:15:24,639 co author talk about signals into I mean, like using EM E, M 174 00:15:24,759 --> 00:15:30,559 F E, L F BLF signals to actually alter people's body frequencies. So 175 00:15:30,639 --> 00:15:33,080 this is actually a real thing. I don't know if John Carpenter knew about 176 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,799 that. I just found it interesting that, you know, the film is 177 00:15:35,799 --> 00:15:41,200 about UH signals and what not, TV signals and satellite signals and all of 178 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:46,279 that, and and how that brainwashes us, and that the h the a 179 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:52,759 keynote paper, UH just kind of a sort of stating the the Army's doctrine 180 00:15:52,879 --> 00:15:58,639 of psychological warfare at the time and how it would need it needed to transition 181 00:15:58,759 --> 00:16:04,759 over into a lot more what they call in their white papers. There's a 182 00:16:04,879 --> 00:16:08,240 NATO document that came out that we covered, I think a couple of years 183 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:12,360 ago. In the NATO document on cy war basically said the same thing. 184 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:18,240 It said, it's time to go beyond thinking about changing people's minds and rather 185 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:23,960 thinking about changing their actual brains. So the biological chemistry itself needs to alter. 186 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:32,679 And that included everything from the same types of elf elf stuff to microchips, 187 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:37,360 et cetera. So yeah, so it's becoming a lot more explicit in 188 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,559 the white papers and the documents as to what they're really referring to. And 189 00:16:40,639 --> 00:16:44,000 I just think that, you know, fiction always has this amazing almost quasi 190 00:16:44,039 --> 00:16:48,879 prophetic element where fiction will, whether it's books or movies, a lot of 191 00:16:48,879 --> 00:16:52,159 times kind of predict the future in a way. I mean, I don't 192 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:53,879 literally think the predicting the future. I think that, you know, if 193 00:16:53,879 --> 00:16:56,919 you think of somebody like Philip K. Dick, you know, he was 194 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,159 hanging out with a lot of people from Silicon Valley at the time, and 195 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,720 he kind of knew what they wanted to do, and so he would put, 196 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:07,400 you know, in his fiction what they planned to do, and so 197 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,279 you get this dystopian fiction as a result. And then in that way, 198 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:15,680 you know, I think fish could be kind of prophetic. I was amazed 199 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:22,880 that the media and the government sold the Iraq War to eighty percent of Americans 200 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:29,079 because it was obviously predicated on lies, and those lines were being told almost 201 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:33,000 they were being exposed almost in real time on the Internet. But yet eighty 202 00:17:33,039 --> 00:17:40,839 percent of Americans wanted thought that Saddam Hussein was connected del Kaida and not various 203 00:17:40,839 --> 00:17:47,480 things. And you talk about and they live that the Pentagon hired pr firm 204 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:56,960 Bell Pottinger and gave them five hundred and forty million dollars to show what amenace 205 00:17:56,279 --> 00:18:03,400 ISIS was to America. Yeah, a lot of these groups we find out 206 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,440 have been I mean, there's a degree to which the groups are real. 207 00:18:07,559 --> 00:18:11,119 They get funding. Of course, ISIS is sort of the continuation of al 208 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:17,039 Qaeda and the Mujahideen and so forth. But you know that's in the nineteen 209 00:18:17,079 --> 00:18:19,480 eighties. You know, they were at the White House with Reagan. You 210 00:18:19,519 --> 00:18:25,519 have the Mujahideen freedom fighters. They're being awarded and congratulated by Reagan. There 211 00:18:25,599 --> 00:18:30,200 was movies made at the Bond Films in the nineteen eighties with Timothy Dalton have 212 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,279 him fighting alongside the Mujahadeen. They even have these sort of been lauden esque 213 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:38,079 characters in the film. I think it's a Living Daylights, but it's one 214 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:45,039 of the Timothy Dalton installments which Rambo as well. Rambo fights alongside the Mujahideen, 215 00:18:45,519 --> 00:18:48,119 and then of course we get in the very nineteen eighty four fashion, 216 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,319 the flipping oh no, actually there are are enemies, and you know, 217 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:56,720 we messed up and we did too much. Now now it's blowback and all 218 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,599 this kind of stuff. But yeah, I think a big part of al 219 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,119 Qaeda, Mujahidin and then the creation and rise of ISIS, a lot of 220 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:08,400 it was pr A lot of it was media played a big role in that. 221 00:19:10,319 --> 00:19:14,759 I mean, obviously there was also I think funneling of aid and support 222 00:19:14,759 --> 00:19:19,440 from Turkey to ISIS throughout the particularly during the attempt to overthrow a SOD. 223 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:25,240 We saw a lot of Western support for that that failed. But regardless, 224 00:19:25,319 --> 00:19:26,799 you know, it's kind of the same game pattern I think we see with 225 00:19:27,759 --> 00:19:32,079 the CIA funding and aiding and supporting rebels. In fact, I went and 226 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:36,319 read. One of the talks I did a couple of years ago was Miles 227 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:40,759 Copeland's book Game of Nations, And in that book, Copeland talks about being 228 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:44,960 in Egypt and in Syria and basically saying, of course we do false flags. 229 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:48,680 Of course we fund radical Islamic groups. Like did you think we didn't, 230 00:19:48,839 --> 00:19:53,640 he says, He says, this is one of our greatest tools is 231 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:59,519 to utilize the Islamic radical for our purposes. There's a old chapter on it, 232 00:19:59,599 --> 00:20:03,119 so yeah, it's pretty prevalent in the literature. So yeah, but 233 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:07,119 I'd forgotten about that specific amount of money. But that's that's wild. It's 234 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:11,799 so half a billion dollars. They're really just to help create the image of 235 00:20:11,839 --> 00:20:21,799 ISIS. But and then and then the threats also become the justification for the 236 00:20:21,839 --> 00:20:25,319 salvation that the system offers. So then when they get rid of bin Lot, 237 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,920 and oh we'll see Obama's a hero. He got rid of bin Lad 238 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:33,200 and they dumped the body at sea, and it's all nonsense in my view. 239 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:34,759 And even say Hirsh writes a big thing talking about how it was all 240 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:40,799 seemingly fake and made up. So anyway, long story short, back to 241 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:42,880 Hollywood and Bernees and all that. Yeah. I remember at the time when 242 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:48,480 I wrote the second Hollywood book, I wasn't I'd read Bernees and I'd read 243 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:53,240 Propaganda, but I hadn't gone into Walter Lippmann, hadn't gone deep into the 244 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:57,559 Tavistock. I'd read Estlin's book from Trying Day. But then I went and 245 00:20:57,599 --> 00:21:03,519 read doctor John Coleman's book on Tavistock was actually really good, and he goes 246 00:21:03,519 --> 00:21:08,599 into the history of how the same Reese Report style of propaganda that they used 247 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:15,680 against the Kaiser to get World War One, going that the predecessor to uh 248 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:22,200 this Tavistock was the I forget the name of it, but it's something starts 249 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,880 with a W. But it's like it was the Ministry of Warfare that the 250 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:30,880 Brits used to start World War One and say that the Kaiser what they called 251 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:37,359 him, the Butcher, They used the same propaganda calling Saddam the butcher Bagnun 252 00:21:37,519 --> 00:21:41,920 because like they literally just mirrored one hundred year old propaganda from Tavistock or the 253 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,920 predecessor to Tavistock. And that's why as you're pointing out y' all these guys 254 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:52,240 like Brene's, like Lipmann, they're just borrowing from the techniques of both Freud 255 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,880 and H. G. Wells, who was a big forefather and pioneer of 256 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:02,279 propaganda techniques. And then you see that that gets used in film. Absolutely. 257 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:06,160 In fact, Brene has said that the greatest medium of propaganda the world's 258 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:12,319 ever known is Hollywood. And he even made his uncle's books in Vogue. 259 00:22:12,319 --> 00:22:15,720 Again. I mean, he was a busy guy. And actually, it's 260 00:22:15,799 --> 00:22:23,079 kind of interesting Joseph Gebels was quite fond of reading Burnet's books despite his Jewish 261 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:30,720 lineage. Well actually and Tavistock individuals who were also Jewish were open about being 262 00:22:30,799 --> 00:22:37,279 fans of Gebels, and they appreciated the type of propaganda techniques that he was 263 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,440 using as well. So there's a lot of cross pollination there in those areas. 264 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,079 Gebels would be if he saw a television today, I mean, that 265 00:22:45,279 --> 00:22:48,079 would be his wet dream, which we'll get into a little bit later when 266 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:53,319 you talk about when I talk about Poltergeist with Ghostbusters, you brought in something 267 00:22:53,400 --> 00:23:00,640 kind of interesting the government tapping into metaphysical forces, and you mentioned Stargate there 268 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:08,039 was an mk Ultra subproject that was tapping into psychic abilities and with Stargate. 269 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:18,039 Stargate was financed for twenty years and then Bill Clinton said it doesn't work, 270 00:23:18,519 --> 00:23:22,640 and the military said it doesn't work. So they ostensibly financed something for twenty 271 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:27,599 years that didn't work, and now there's no more Stargate. But I believe 272 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:36,440 that there is a stargate and it's gone black. Yeah, that's interesting because 273 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,400 we just revisited this topic. I hadn't thought about this in many years, 274 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:45,319 but I got some of my old SRI at Stargate research out the other day 275 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:51,119 because we did a podcast covering the recent discussion of Gateway Process, which is 276 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:56,519 another one of these declassified CAIA documents, where they were supposedly delving into a 277 00:23:56,559 --> 00:24:02,319 lot of kind of consciousness techniques and meditation technique and trying to hit to hemi 278 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,880 sync which has merged both hemispheres of the brain, and see what you could 279 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:11,799 tap into by doing this. And so the guy who ran that was part 280 00:24:11,839 --> 00:24:17,799 of this Esslin connected institute. I forget the name of the foundation that they 281 00:24:17,839 --> 00:24:19,680 were doing this research at, but it was all part of SRI as well, 282 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,039 and a lot of the people at SRI involved in that project, you 283 00:24:25,079 --> 00:24:30,039 know, come up in a lot of the text that Chris has printed at 284 00:24:30,079 --> 00:24:34,039 Trying Day, and that then the Boharics and these characters so also have a 285 00:24:34,039 --> 00:24:40,759 lot of interest in the occult a gnosticism and quantum physics. So it's hard 286 00:24:40,799 --> 00:24:44,680 to know what's real or not real in that whole domain of a cult and 287 00:24:44,759 --> 00:24:49,279 metaphysics and quantum physics and consciousness meditation techniques. I think there's definitely something there 288 00:24:49,319 --> 00:24:55,200 because, as you pointed out, what you get just double bind and the 289 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,000 creation of the First Earth Battalion, and you know, the book that Ronson 290 00:24:59,559 --> 00:25:02,920 writes, Minister at Ghats becomes the George Clooney film. So here we get 291 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:07,200 another crossover into Hollywood with the very stuff that we're talking about. Because although 292 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,160 I don't I think I mentioned Minister at Goats, I didn't do an essay 293 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:15,119 on it. You know, Clooney is another character, for example, who 294 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:21,200 seems to pretty consistently have direct CIE connections, perhaps even working with the CIA, 295 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,440 much like Angelina Joe Lee being a member of the Council on Foreign Relation. 296 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,559 So we see it. We always see these patterns, and if you're 297 00:25:26,559 --> 00:25:32,680 remembering Minister at goats. You know, he's doing all these different techniques the 298 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:37,160 the George Clooney character, like cloud busting with his mind and he's trying to 299 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,200 he's trying to kill a goat with his mind. But what's what happens at 300 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:45,240 the end of the movie is that if I recall there, it fast forwards 301 00:25:45,279 --> 00:25:52,200 to present day of Gulf War one and they're in Iraq and they're figuring out 302 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:59,799 ways to hand out American DVDs and movies to push American pop culture in Iraq. 303 00:26:00,079 --> 00:26:04,319 So again the irony is that the movie becomes a sort of a testament 304 00:26:04,319 --> 00:26:08,599 to the movie itself being propaganda and kind of you know, bringing a full 305 00:26:08,599 --> 00:26:12,119 circle. But yeah, you're absolutely right to say that there's quite a few 306 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:18,079 of these projects where the government's you know, it's not just SRI and Uri 307 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,680 gell Are and remote viewing. It's it's quite a few things and probably much 308 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:26,960 more that we don't know about. It's interesting you talked about under Poohich and 309 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:33,960 he worked at SRI and was was part of startating and he was a notorious 310 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:41,519 pedophile. He was he was definitely a very depraved individual and he was he 311 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:48,319 was the guy that founded or discovered Jury Gallop and your his ability to bend 312 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:53,319 spoons and other things. And but there are accounts of poo Haich being like 313 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:59,400 a notorious pedophile, and I knew someone that was, well I still know 314 00:26:59,559 --> 00:27:03,720 him, don't really talk too much anymore. I said he was involved in 315 00:27:03,079 --> 00:27:11,240 stargating slright And I said, how did you guys rationalize using Andre Pouharich. 316 00:27:11,559 --> 00:27:18,440 Yeah, he's such a malignant character. And this guy said to me, 317 00:27:18,519 --> 00:27:25,279 well, we knew there was something weird about him. And with Cloney, 318 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:29,519 it's kind of interesting. You have Confessions of a Dangerous Mind, you have 319 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:37,119 Syriana, and then you have Michael Clayton, which really show some amazing truths, 320 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,559 right, but then he does a U turn and doesn't seem to be 321 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,440 making movies about stuff like that anymore. Yeah, that's a good point. 322 00:27:45,839 --> 00:27:49,720 I did like Michael Clayton. I thought that was good sort of critique and 323 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:57,559 exposing corporate power. And then Siana, I want to say, that's based 324 00:27:57,559 --> 00:28:00,680 on a Robert Bayer book, and that would mean then that you know, 325 00:28:00,759 --> 00:28:07,160 that's kind of this supposedly critical side of the CIA, which which Bear is 326 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,920 kind of a similar character where every now in he'll say is really kind of 327 00:28:11,839 --> 00:28:15,680 revealing things, and then help be back on CNN touting the you know, 328 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:21,359 Russia runs Trump narrative, which is all nonsense in my view. But yeah, 329 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,440 so it's hard to know with some of these characters, like what where 330 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,640 they're come. But you know, with Clooney again, you know, you've 331 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:32,680 got tons and tons of people who that's more speculative in his case, I 332 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:37,519 don't think it's outlandish, but quite a few people in Hollywood have been actually 333 00:28:37,559 --> 00:28:42,960 you know, CIA assets, and I think that speaks to really the where 334 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:47,279 I'm going to take things in the third book I'm working on, Sir Calywood. 335 00:28:47,279 --> 00:28:52,400 Three is I'm going to focus a little more on hard cases and evidences 336 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,480 of people who you know, were Hollywood spies who did work with the OSS. 337 00:28:56,839 --> 00:29:00,440 When I was writing the first two books, you know, there's a 338 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,039 lot of information that wasn't even out yet, and so you know a lot 339 00:29:03,039 --> 00:29:06,880 of books, biographies get written and things get declassified since you you know, 340 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,240 you're writing stuff eight ten years ago, and you learn a lot more about 341 00:29:10,279 --> 00:29:12,000 it and you realize, oh, actually, you know, there's been Affleck 342 00:29:12,039 --> 00:29:15,559 in an interview saying that Hollywood and the CIA are flip sides of the same 343 00:29:15,599 --> 00:29:22,079 coin. Here's you know, information that comes out about this studio is actually 344 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,799 up front for running intelligence operation. You know, all these kinds of crazy 345 00:29:25,839 --> 00:29:30,319 stories that come out, all of which are true. But yeah, I 346 00:29:30,359 --> 00:29:33,599 mean it's it's sort of like once you see it, it's like, well, 347 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,200 how did I never see that? Of course, of course the CIA 348 00:29:36,359 --> 00:29:40,720 is using all these Hollywood people. Of course, you know you've got people 349 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,319 like going back to Julia Child or the first TV chef, She's comes out 350 00:29:44,319 --> 00:29:47,480 of the OSS and people think, well, why would that be, Well, 351 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,920 it's because it's called culture creation. So you mentioned Burne earlier. Uh 352 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,880 brene is, I mean, that's that's really what a lot of these groups 353 00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:03,720 do, is they want to create, grow, and steer culture. And 354 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:07,640 then it makes perfect sense why they would have, you know, assets in 355 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:15,920 Hollywood. And let's jump to a clockwork Orange and the drugs. You said 356 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:25,160 something pretty interesting that Alex he was the head drug who was on the homicidal 357 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:30,359 side, and that you pointed out and this was a Kubrick film, and 358 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:37,480 you pointed out that he had endured sexual abuse very early on, and ultimately 359 00:30:37,559 --> 00:30:44,720 he went through government sponsored mind control give us some insights into a clackwork orange. 360 00:30:44,799 --> 00:30:48,079 Yeah. Actually I forgot about that scene where they show Alex and his 361 00:30:48,559 --> 00:30:53,559 sort of government CPS handler agent guy showing up, and it's very clearly implies 362 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,839 that there's sexual something going on there in that scene where he's standing in his 363 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:02,279 white e tidies there with the CPS guy or whatever that guy's supposed to be. 364 00:31:03,519 --> 00:31:07,960 Yeah, this is a near future dystopio in the UK where basically we 365 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:14,359 have these sort of street gangs running wild. You've got the parental middle class, 366 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,240 upper class people. They're all sort of oblivious to what's going on that 367 00:31:18,319 --> 00:31:22,880 they really don't care. Alex's parents are totally out to lunch. They're just 368 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,400 sort of mesmerized by the TV, the game shows and whatnot. And Alex 369 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,759 is just sort of this one. He's just sort of a creature of pure 370 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:37,640 inner animalistic passion. Basically, he just sort of wanders around the town sleeping 371 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,359 with whoever he wants. But for some reason he has this fixation on Beethoven 372 00:31:41,119 --> 00:31:49,559 h and he's always playing Beethoven. And after a brutal rape event with him 373 00:31:49,559 --> 00:31:55,400 and his gang, he ends up and put into this program which is called 374 00:31:55,440 --> 00:32:00,400 the Ludovico method. And to me this really just smacks of again ultra. 375 00:32:00,839 --> 00:32:07,240 Its macks of reprogramming and imprinting and the actual fact a lot of the MK 376 00:32:07,319 --> 00:32:15,319 ultra experiments were done with various prisoners. So we had cases in Kentucky not 377 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,880 far from me, where they were experimenting on people in prisons. We had 378 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:24,319 people in military prisons and confinement that were experimented on. So I think there's 379 00:32:24,319 --> 00:32:28,720 some truth to this. And actually I read a book a couple of years 380 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,160 ago about projects in Australia. It's something I never even heard about. Some 381 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:39,079 guy wrote a little internet online book is a well written book about M culture 382 00:32:39,119 --> 00:32:43,960 projects that were done in Australia that hardly anybody knew about. So M culture 383 00:32:44,039 --> 00:32:47,599 actually wasn't just a US based or even a Canada based or it was actually 384 00:32:49,359 --> 00:32:52,319 particularly it seems to be places within the Queen's Commonwealth, with which I think 385 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:59,200 is suspicious. So a lot of Canada, Australia, America and UK projects, 386 00:33:00,599 --> 00:33:04,559 but a lot of the stuff that we that you read about in what 387 00:33:04,559 --> 00:33:09,039 what appears to be uh in culture related projects in Australia also seem to match 388 00:33:09,119 --> 00:33:14,680 up very closely to Ludovico method type of stuff. But yeah, so the 389 00:33:14,759 --> 00:33:20,279 idea is, can we can we engineer out of the you know, wild 390 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:25,200 teenage criminal, his basic animalistic nature and turn him into this sort of just 391 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:32,000 controlled pacifist character, right, And what I like about the film, and 392 00:33:32,079 --> 00:33:37,400 I think probably the point of the book too, is that you think that 393 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,559 this is done for under the auspices of, you know, reducing crime. 394 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:47,160 But as we pointed out earlier with the methodology of a Kino, that research 395 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:51,880 and development of that technique in that study is not just about reducing crime. 396 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,480 It's about how to take those techniques and turn it on the population to make 397 00:33:54,519 --> 00:34:00,279 sure the population is docile and controllable. That's the key point here. And 398 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:04,279 and you know, and I think Chris has the same idea. I never 399 00:34:04,359 --> 00:34:08,840 understood Vietnam until I started trying to understand it from that perspective. And if 400 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:14,199 you read Douglas Valentine's book on Vietnam, he makes the point that really Vietnam 401 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:20,519 wasn't even about research and development for warfare, it was about how to manage 402 00:34:20,519 --> 00:34:24,519 population and control population. And that's kind of the ending thesis because then he 403 00:34:24,599 --> 00:34:30,679 transitions over into the Bush era and how the Bush Ran Contrast stuff and the 404 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:36,559 School of Americas and all that was the development out of the Vietnam sciops programs. 405 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,440 So I think the same thing's going on here with what Burgess and and 406 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:44,559 clukoral Orange is talking about is that these are these are these are It's an 407 00:34:44,599 --> 00:34:52,079 artistic portrayal of the techniques that are done for the excuses of reducing crime and 408 00:34:52,159 --> 00:34:58,280 helping society or whatever. But it's all just for control. What's interesting about 409 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:07,320 Valentine's book about Vietnam the Phoenix program. We're training people, Our government is 410 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:14,920 training Americans to be serial killers, right, I mean, it's I don't 411 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:20,199 know how else you can put it. And there was a movie called Apartment 412 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:27,920 Zero and it was about South African mercenary and he was quite fond of killing 413 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,559 people. And then and then all the wars dried up, at least the 414 00:35:31,599 --> 00:35:37,440 ones that he could be part of, so he returns. He goes to 415 00:35:37,519 --> 00:35:40,440 London and lives with somebody, and then he starts killing people because he had 416 00:35:40,519 --> 00:35:46,440 learned to enjoy it. And my uncle he died last year. He was 417 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:53,320 in Vietnam, and he and I had a number of talks about Vietnam. 418 00:35:53,719 --> 00:36:00,400 And he felt really guilty about Vietnam, and I said, al, you 419 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:07,840 were put into a situation, and a highly abnormal situation, and that's a 420 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:13,440 normal response, is you want to kill somebody, I mean they're trying to 421 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,119 kill you, they're killing your friends, of course you're going to want to 422 00:36:16,199 --> 00:36:22,280 kill them. And he died last year and I went to La and married 423 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:31,159 him, and I saw he had painted paintings of g I's standing over dead 424 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:38,880 children. And at that point I realized, now I know why he just 425 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:44,400 could I mean, he couldn't shake it. It haunted him his entire life. 426 00:36:45,039 --> 00:36:51,679 Yeah, really really sad, and we were very close, but he 427 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,719 kept that from me. I just like I said, I didn't find out 428 00:36:54,719 --> 00:37:00,239 about it until he died. Yeah, I didn't really understand movies like Apocalypse 429 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,679 now, you know, like I was telling you earlier, I grew up 430 00:37:02,679 --> 00:37:07,079 in the eighties, so I didn't really experience or know that kind of stuff 431 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:09,800 from you know, sixties, seventies and so forth. But you know, 432 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,760 when I was in high school, I really got into film and became a 433 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,119 movie buff. And I watched Apocalypse. Now back in high school, I 434 00:37:16,119 --> 00:37:19,480 did, but I didn't really understand it or know what the point of it 435 00:37:19,639 --> 00:37:22,960 was. After reading Valentine's book and then going back and watching you know, 436 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:27,559 Apocalypse, now it makes a lot more sense than I can understand. You 437 00:37:27,599 --> 00:37:30,960 know, You've got not just LSD, but you got this sort of like 438 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:35,360 people going like Colonel Kirks going nuts, and but he makes sense in the 439 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,039 in the light of a Phoenix program idea, now I do. I'm not 440 00:37:37,119 --> 00:37:40,159 saying that he's supposed to be the Phoenix program. I don't know, but 441 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:46,360 definitely in the film you get a lot of elements of what was experimental psychological 442 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:52,199 warfare at the time of Vietnam, like well Kubrick's Full Metal Jacket, for 443 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:57,280 example. You have the idea of it being filmed live time. That was 444 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,400 the first war that was that was filmed. They would send the transmissions of 445 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:05,599 the war live, which was a new I think that was a new experiment 446 00:38:05,679 --> 00:38:10,920 in social engineering to to show to the domestic population war in lifetime. You 447 00:38:12,039 --> 00:38:15,400 get, you know, the playing of Wagner as the helicopters are coming over 448 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:22,639 the horizon. That was another experiment in psyops to villagers who'd never heard something 449 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:24,320 like this. So and then, of course, as you pointed out, 450 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:30,440 you know, you've got this this training of and probably profiling of like like 451 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:35,320 we've said, like you know, the CIA being involved, even corporate consultants 452 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,280 going over and being involved. It was a run out of Michigan University, 453 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:42,400 Michigan State, which is odd. And then they're they're basically consulting on finding 454 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:46,159 serial killers to go and murder and put corpses in the most you know, 455 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:53,440 offensive terrorizing way, particularly with the eye of God and nails in the third 456 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:59,000 eye there to freak out the Buddhists and whatnot. So, yeah, you 457 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,320 basically were any people to be serial killers. This is kind of wild, 458 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:05,480 this is nuts. And then you find out, you know, you dive 459 00:39:05,519 --> 00:39:10,960 deeper into people like William Colby and his whole background and his role in Gladio 460 00:39:12,159 --> 00:39:15,639 and the whole fiasco Operation Gladio. I mean, all this stuff for me 461 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:23,079 just kind of came unraveled with you know, being sort of a GOP Navy 462 00:39:23,119 --> 00:39:29,760 family raised by GOP Navy family. You know, after nine to eleven, 463 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,880 I pretty much just sort of gave up all that kind of stuff because you 464 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,480 see, you see that these big families are all kind of in the same 465 00:39:36,519 --> 00:39:38,719 crime syndicates, right, So it's not like, well, I'm gonna switch 466 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:42,519 from the Bush Family to I like the Bill you know, I like Bill 467 00:39:42,559 --> 00:39:45,679 Clinton. Now, well they're all involved in you know, the same stuff. 468 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:47,599 So for me, the good part of all that was that, you 469 00:39:47,639 --> 00:39:53,000 know, this kind of broke the left right paradigm for me back around the 470 00:39:53,039 --> 00:39:58,719 time of you know, two thousand and three. But that's biographical data. 471 00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:00,840 We were talking about the movies Apologize I got all fun to We're talking about 472 00:40:01,199 --> 00:40:06,440 Vico Method, and we were talking about I like, but you know what, 473 00:40:06,559 --> 00:40:08,559 Yeah, that's the thing is a lot of movies actually have this theme 474 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:15,920 of the uh, you know, the crazy Vietnam Vet, and that's a 475 00:40:15,039 --> 00:40:17,320 kind of a joke that people do, and I don't I don't mind the 476 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:22,880 joke. But there turns out the reason for the crazy Vietnam Vet is that 477 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:28,159 the military was trying to find crazy guys right to tournament into serial killers. 478 00:40:29,079 --> 00:40:34,719 And my uncle was just a runner of the milk kid from the Midwest. 479 00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:40,480 I did well in high school, very smart, and what he was turned 480 00:40:40,519 --> 00:40:47,480 into obviously was pretty horrific. You tangle twin Peaks, which I find interesting, 481 00:40:47,639 --> 00:40:52,000 and you address a number of the occult teams in Twin Peaks, and 482 00:40:52,039 --> 00:40:58,159 some of them jump right out at you, but you focus on Jack Parsons 483 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:04,599 when you talk about Twin Peaks. Give us some background about Jack Parsons aka 484 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:14,360 the Beast. Well, he was a prodigious rocketeer and scientists, I guess 485 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:19,599 you could say. And of course the jet Propulsion Laboratory is sort of his 486 00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:24,800 baby. It's it's it comes from his work. He was into the occult 487 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:30,639 and for a time was involved in the circles of Croley, the Oto and 488 00:41:30,519 --> 00:41:37,280 various lodges out in California. And his specific plan was this idea that you 489 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:42,800 could meld science with full on you know, occultism and kind of produce these 490 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,880 big ritual workings. And one of those, I mean, I think all 491 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,519 rockets are also kind of like in his mind, like sending the rocket into 492 00:41:49,559 --> 00:41:52,880 space is like this you know, phallic sort of seminal transmission where you're impregnating 493 00:41:53,119 --> 00:41:58,039 the universe or something like that. But he also had this idea of the 494 00:41:58,079 --> 00:42:04,119 Babylon working, which was to re enact or actually create the apocalypse. So 495 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,519 for Crollians and people in that sphere, they tend to think that John's apocalypse 496 00:42:07,519 --> 00:42:12,599 at the end of the Book of the Bible is this sort of coded magical 497 00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:17,440 text that you can invoke through some sort of ritual working. So Parsons was 498 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:22,280 involved in I think an incestuous sort of ritual working at one point, and 499 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:24,519 then there was another incident where he thought he could create a homunculus, and 500 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:30,360 so he really seemed to want to take these occult ideas and put them into 501 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:36,400 practice. Probably people have heard of l Ron Hubbard and I think it was 502 00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:40,320 was it l Ron Hubbard stole Marjorie Cameron from Jack Parsons, right, so, 503 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:45,920 and some money too, Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, I'm 504 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:50,719 trying to remember all these details. But yeah, but what's interesting about Parsons 505 00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:54,159 is that he seemed to take everything that you would think is science and kind 506 00:42:54,199 --> 00:42:59,199 of give it this esoteric alchemical meaning. So, you know, the idea 507 00:42:59,199 --> 00:43:01,800 of splitting the me or something like that. I mean, this is not 508 00:43:02,039 --> 00:43:07,000 Parsons, but you know, people who have that attitude would think that it's 509 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:12,119 like a ritual working where you're releasing the energy and perhaps even opening a portal. 510 00:43:12,159 --> 00:43:16,320 And the reason that relates so that you have this this idea that Parsons 511 00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:21,920 thought he might could open up some sort of dimensional spiritual portal, and I 512 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,280 remember when I was watching Twin Peaks, I didn't actually I wasn't actually sure 513 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:30,639 that that's what Mark Frost and David Lynch had in mind. So I wrote 514 00:43:30,639 --> 00:43:35,920 a pretty speculative essay that I put in I think the first Hollywood book about 515 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,639 Twin Peaks, because I'd noticed throughout the series I had to watch it a 516 00:43:38,679 --> 00:43:42,559 couple of times to really understand what was going on, because it's a pretty 517 00:43:42,639 --> 00:43:45,519 sophisticated kind of deep thing there, with a lot of philosophy and a lot 518 00:43:45,559 --> 00:43:51,079 of esoteric stuff. And it's also a satires because David Lynch is kind of 519 00:43:51,079 --> 00:43:54,480 making fun of soap operas, which were really popular in the early nineties. 520 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,760 But then when you watch it, it's like, well, there's this really 521 00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:00,880 weird kind of esoteric stuff going on too. I wonder what that's all about. 522 00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:06,519 And I first encountered the idea that it might be something deeper in the 523 00:44:06,559 --> 00:44:09,360 centersor Force's trilogy, where there's a discussion of David Lynch in one of the 524 00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:13,079 chapters, and so I thought, well, let me just dive deeper into 525 00:44:13,119 --> 00:44:15,760 this and see what I can come up with. And I noticed in some 526 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:21,440 of the scenes that you know, actually put ritual magic schiguls up there on 527 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,920 the board where Cooper is doing a lot of his investigation work. And so 528 00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:29,960 I wrote an essay basically saying that I think this probably relates to the Babylon 529 00:44:30,079 --> 00:44:34,599 working of Parsons and Crowley and this kind of stuff. And then Mark Frost 530 00:44:34,599 --> 00:44:37,119 puts out this big fat book on the history of Twin Peaks and says all 531 00:44:37,159 --> 00:44:42,320 of that. So I'm not saying that Mark Frost read my essay. Maybe 532 00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:44,480 he did, I don't know, but I just thought it was funny to 533 00:44:44,519 --> 00:44:47,480 be vindicated because literally, in the Twin Peaks history book by Mark Frost, 534 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,559 I mean, he goes into Crowley, he goes into the Parsons, he 535 00:44:51,599 --> 00:44:54,039 goes into the Babylon working, he goes into all of that, saying that, 536 00:44:54,119 --> 00:44:58,400 yeah, that's really what we were drawing from when we did the mythology 537 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:06,360 of Twin Peaks. So, yeah, another example of esoteric Hollywood's ohto, 538 00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:15,760 that's what Jack Parsons embraced. He was a croleide and and he helped develop 539 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:22,360 rocket engines, as Jay was saying, and he was a fairly nasty piece 540 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:27,239 of work. But there's a crater on the moon named after him, Yeah, 541 00:45:27,559 --> 00:45:34,039 a crater named after an Alison appolyte. And then he took in a 542 00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:42,719 very I think shell shocked l Ron Hubbard, and Elron stole his wife and 543 00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:46,800 some money too, and oh and I forgot Parsons also sold the secrets to 544 00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:52,360 Israel. Yes, he got in trouble for that and what he had his 545 00:45:52,639 --> 00:45:59,480 top security clearance revoked like five times for I mean, you know, he's 546 00:45:59,559 --> 00:46:02,880 a he's a guy that's quite fond of black magic. I could see, 547 00:46:04,119 --> 00:46:07,519 you know, that could rub certain people wrong. Although I'm I mean, 548 00:46:07,559 --> 00:46:10,280 he always got a security client's bank, so it's kind of interesting. Yeah, 549 00:46:12,079 --> 00:46:16,800 but I find it interesting that he after el Ron Hubbard stole his wife 550 00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:23,199 and money, that he blew himself up. Yeah. Wasn't this in this 551 00:46:24,039 --> 00:46:29,360 humunculous experiment or what he thought was going to create some kind of space being 552 00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:30,639 or something. I forget what he thought it was going to do, but 553 00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:35,159 it ended up blowing up? Right? Or do you do you think there 554 00:46:35,199 --> 00:46:40,000 was something else like he was he was killed or I don't know, I 555 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:44,920 could see a guy like that, well he was, I mean, he 556 00:46:45,119 --> 00:46:50,760 was a genius with those types of chemicals. I mean, without a doubt, 557 00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:57,960 he was way ahead of everybody. Did he kill himself or was it 558 00:46:58,079 --> 00:47:04,119 something going awry? I do not know, but I can see how a 559 00:47:04,119 --> 00:47:10,840 guy like Jack Parsons could have a lot of enemies and what a better way 560 00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:15,199 to get rid of him than to blow him up? All he works on 561 00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:22,119 chemicals. Well he got blown up. Convenient and I don't subscribe to that, 562 00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:30,599 but it's a possibility. Let's get into Poultergeist and it's director Toby Hopper. 563 00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:36,880 You said some very interesting things. And again we've got a connection with 564 00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:44,280 Alistair Crowley because the television, the cathode ray that was designed, and the 565 00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:49,800 television plays a central part in Polterge, a central piece of it's an essential 566 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:55,440 piece of poultry Poultergeist, and and it was developed by someone who is also 567 00:47:55,599 --> 00:48:02,400 in The Gold Guy, right, which which probably was. So we've got 568 00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:08,840 some heavy duty occult stuff going on there. Give us tell us about Poultrygeist 569 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:15,760 and what Toby Hooper was trying to get at. Yeah, if I remember, 570 00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:22,039 If I remember, the screenplay is Spielberg and it specifically mentions the beast, 571 00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:25,599 but you don't really hear that if you're watching the movie. I had 572 00:48:25,599 --> 00:48:30,079 to go look up the screenplay to see what what what the original attention was. 573 00:48:30,159 --> 00:48:35,599 And so the critique there, I think is that television is the means 574 00:48:35,679 --> 00:48:43,000 by which you would have a sort of spiritual toxifying of the youth, in 575 00:48:43,039 --> 00:48:49,760 particular because it's the little girl that's really transfixed by the TV, and she's 576 00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:53,280 she's the one that's really having the experiences with you know, the dead and 577 00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:58,559 the spirits and the demons by the TV, and and the rest of the 578 00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:01,440 family and particularly the parents, they don't even notice. They're sort of oblivious 579 00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:07,039 to what's really going on because we have the story that it's built on an 580 00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:12,000 Indian burial ground or something like that. But I really think that's secondary to 581 00:49:12,039 --> 00:49:15,480 the point of, you know, the the movie is really about, again 582 00:49:15,119 --> 00:49:20,280 similar to what we find and they live, except that it's pointing out, 583 00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:23,320 maybe maybe even in a revelation of the method way that the real way that 584 00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:27,840 the society and the youth will be sacrificed to the beast. I think is 585 00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:32,159 what I said, is via the toxic culture that would come through mainstream media, 586 00:49:32,159 --> 00:49:36,840 through the TV. And you were talking about the Goldandawn, it was 587 00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:40,840 Crooks William Crooks. The Crooks Tube is the origin of the of television. 588 00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:44,760 And that's a guy who was in the Golden Dawn, which is Curly's a 589 00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:49,360 first magical group before he started the the OT or before he joined the OTO. 590 00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:53,760 He didn't start it, but he joined. H yeah, yeah, 591 00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:59,440 yeah, so so yeah, that was my reading of Poultry, guys. 592 00:49:59,519 --> 00:50:02,039 I' watched it in a long time, went back and watched it and you 593 00:50:02,039 --> 00:50:05,239 know, took a lot of notes and paid close attention to it when did 594 00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:07,280 a bunch of research on it and kind of what the screenplay was originally intended 595 00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:13,360 to be. So sometimes movies go in a different direction than what the screenplay 596 00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,159 has, right, So sometimes there'll be stuff like the Beast, you know 597 00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:19,960 that's in the screenplay, that's not that doesn't really come out of the movie. 598 00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:24,960 But it makes a lot more sense when you know that what's interesting the 599 00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:31,880 television becomes the vortex, the wormhole. Well, and what did Levey say, 600 00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:37,880 right? LaVey said that trying to paraphrase him of something like every home 601 00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:44,559 would have a satanic altar and that would be the TV. He said something 602 00:50:44,599 --> 00:50:47,639 like that. Yeah, and you get into MK ultra at that point. 603 00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:54,679 Again, you talk about John Lilly's work with children as far as being able 604 00:50:54,679 --> 00:50:59,639 to make tomatons out of children, and he actually wrote a book about it. 605 00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:04,840 Yeah, he's got a book called What's Up over Here? It's Programming 606 00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:07,639 and meta Programming in the Human Biocomputer. And actually bought that because I didn't 607 00:51:07,679 --> 00:51:10,559 think that. I was skeptical. I thought surely he wouldn't put that in 608 00:51:10,599 --> 00:51:15,280 the book. Man, it's almost unreadable. If you try to read the 609 00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:17,280 book, it just most of it doesn't make any sense. I have no 610 00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:22,519 idea what he's talking about. Which that could be that I don't know the 611 00:51:22,559 --> 00:51:25,639 science of what he's trying to talk about, or it's just he was so 612 00:51:27,079 --> 00:51:29,679 tripped out on LSD that he didn't know what it was. I could go 613 00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:32,559 either way. But there is a chapter towards the end where he does talk 614 00:51:32,599 --> 00:51:37,880 about doing this with children, and he claims he was able to sort of. 615 00:51:38,199 --> 00:51:43,280 He talks about it as if everything is a program. So he's basically 616 00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:47,320 saying the human mind is like a biological computer, and that there's these base 617 00:51:47,599 --> 00:51:52,039 layer programs that run like which are your drives, like to eat, to 618 00:51:52,119 --> 00:51:55,880 sleep, and then there's other layers and programs that have been tacked on. 619 00:51:57,159 --> 00:52:00,760 Maybe through genetic memories. I'm going from I haven't looked at the book in 620 00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:05,679 many years, but something like that, Like maybe he thinks there's genetic memories 621 00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:09,519 that evolved and are in your programming through your ancestors, and then there's things 622 00:52:09,519 --> 00:52:14,960 that you encountered in your life that the program that imprinted you. And he 623 00:52:15,039 --> 00:52:20,480 thinks that through a lot of LSD and then reprogramming, kind of like you 624 00:52:20,559 --> 00:52:23,320 and Cameron did with the reimprinting, you can wipe the slate and kind of 625 00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:30,559 create a new being by tinkering with their base programs. And this is interesting 626 00:52:30,639 --> 00:52:34,480 because there's something to this. I don't know a whole lot about this field, 627 00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:39,159 but I was watching the famous Jordan Peterson course a couple months ago, 628 00:52:39,639 --> 00:52:43,440 the one that he did that he's had up online for a long time. 629 00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:47,599 It's his full psychology personality course. It's I don't know, twenty thirty lectures 630 00:52:49,119 --> 00:52:52,079 and about four or five lectures. Then he actually gets into this and he 631 00:52:52,199 --> 00:52:54,599 uses a very similar type of menal. I'm not saying that he does what 632 00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:58,679 Lily does. I'm just saying that there's something to this because he starts talking 633 00:52:58,679 --> 00:53:04,239 about base your programming that is how the human mind functions and so forth. 634 00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:07,000 So I think there's something to this, and that leads me to think that 635 00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:12,920 Lily is talking about something legitimate. But a lot of the book is like 636 00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:19,760 I said, it's really just the the terminological baggage is just who knows what 637 00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:22,480 he's talking about. But it's it's a real book. It's crazy. I 638 00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:25,360 mean, it's like wow, but it should. I don't guess it's that 639 00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:29,679 far fetched though. If we know that Alfred Kinsey, you know, he 640 00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:30,960 did this kind of stuff to kids, So I don't guess it's that far 641 00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:36,440 fetched that Lily would be involved in doing this kind of stuff. Subproject went 642 00:53:36,559 --> 00:53:42,079 thirty six talks about giving a life for a shock to children. And then 643 00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:47,400 you've got Loretta Bender. She was a famous psychiatrist at Melview and she was 644 00:53:47,559 --> 00:53:52,079 dosing children for weeks on end. I mean, well, there you go. 645 00:53:52,119 --> 00:53:54,559 There's another example. Yeah, so it's not fun. That is youngest 646 00:53:54,599 --> 00:53:59,960 five or six. Wow, she would dose them for months and she was 647 00:54:00,159 --> 00:54:07,480 being uh the Human Ecology Fund, which was the CIA front, So who 648 00:54:07,519 --> 00:54:10,639 knows. I mean, these are examples that we know about what the CI 649 00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:17,199 has done to children. Yeah, and most of that mk Altra documentation was 650 00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:22,360 destroyed, destroyed, right, but it really shows how sadistic they were, 651 00:54:22,639 --> 00:54:28,320 how sadistic they were to children. And I just, uh, when I 652 00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:34,000 started reading about this type of stuff made me very very angry that that there 653 00:54:34,039 --> 00:54:38,360 was no lines. I mean, there's no moral lines. Yeah, it's 654 00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:45,519 like a mad science thing, right, like Mangola's idea of science or you 655 00:54:45,519 --> 00:54:49,400 know, there's a lot of parallels with well thing back to like didn't Skinner 656 00:54:49,519 --> 00:54:52,599 Skinner put his daughter in a box? Didn't he because he thought he could 657 00:54:52,679 --> 00:54:58,000 program his daughter. It wouldn't surprise me, but there's some story about him 658 00:54:58,039 --> 00:55:05,400 like putting his putting his kids in his Skinner box to reprogram them. So 659 00:55:05,519 --> 00:55:13,480 you write that Hollywood, with all points where are confronted by phony dialectics, 660 00:55:13,559 --> 00:55:19,039 which are essentially false paradigms of opposition, and they are almost always wrong, 661 00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:22,960 maintaining only a piece of the puzzle. And when you write about that, 662 00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:32,400 you write about individualism versu the collective, and you talk about Hollywood trying to 663 00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:40,559 destroy the individualism and make everyone a part of the collective consciousness of the propaganda 664 00:55:40,599 --> 00:55:45,360 that's being produced in Hollywood. Could you explicate that a little bit. I'm 665 00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:49,119 trying to remember that. I think that's in the context that when I was 666 00:55:49,159 --> 00:55:54,519 talking about B for Vendetta and how bper Vendetta is about, you know, 667 00:55:54,639 --> 00:56:01,760 anarcho individualistic rebellion, but the the way it's presented in the story is kind 668 00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:07,719 of like, yeah, but in reality, we're all collectively Guy Fox or 669 00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:09,760 something like that. And so I think I was just trying to point out 670 00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:16,159 that, in my view, anarchism has a long history of being a tool 671 00:56:16,199 --> 00:56:22,079 as well for intelligence operations and false flags. I think in one of the 672 00:56:22,079 --> 00:56:28,679 British intelligence writers, maybe Conrad, you know, there's this discussion of where 673 00:56:28,679 --> 00:56:31,079 the I think it's British intelligence does a false flag with anarchists or something like 674 00:56:31,119 --> 00:56:36,199 that. So that was kind of what I was getting at the same idea 675 00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:43,880 comes up in the Guy Ritchie Sherlock Holmes. This the part two where these 676 00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:49,880 anarchists engage in these bombings. But it turns out it was actually Moriarty who 677 00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:52,920 in the story actually kind of appears to be a British and he's like an 678 00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:59,159 Oxford professor or Cane British and he's working with military Dove complex to arm difference 679 00:56:59,239 --> 00:57:04,559 both sides the war for World War One. In the Robert Downey Junior Jude 680 00:57:04,639 --> 00:57:07,639 Law Guy Ritchie version of Charlot Combs. I always thought that part two of 681 00:57:07,679 --> 00:57:12,079 Charlot Combs is pretty revealing in that regard to But yeah, That's what I 682 00:57:12,119 --> 00:57:15,920 was getting at, was just that when the movies give you even the idea 683 00:57:16,039 --> 00:57:22,119 of something like the rugged individual or the anarcho individual, even that's really just 684 00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:27,920 kind of a corporate, fraudulent type of rebellions. It's an inauthentic rebellion, 685 00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:30,639 I guess, is what I was trying to get at. And you're right. 686 00:57:30,719 --> 00:57:37,519 Both cultic groups and government agencies have the desire for control, and particularly 687 00:57:37,559 --> 00:57:43,159 the control of thought. And one of the most effective groups to achieve this 688 00:57:43,519 --> 00:57:51,920 is through childhood manipulation, which we're just talking about. And I've got a 689 00:57:52,000 --> 00:58:02,079 quote here that I that I liked. There are many many There are many 690 00:58:02,119 --> 00:58:08,920 many problems for positing ultimate reality or the absolute as an impersonal force. If 691 00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:14,840 ultimate reality is impersonal and chaotic, then all localized of ads, phenomena, 692 00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:20,639 and objects are also devoid of any ultimate meaning. Language, mathematics, logic, 693 00:58:21,079 --> 00:58:27,199 et cetera. Are thus also annihilated as merely mental fictions or at best 694 00:58:27,519 --> 00:58:34,239 some cosmic force we do not understand. These are servants of chaos and the 695 00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:43,199 abyss. So basically what you're saying is that there you can look at come 696 00:58:43,199 --> 00:58:50,440 at reality one of two ways, metaphysically or materially, And if you come 697 00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:58,440 at reality materially, then everything loses its meaning. Yeah, if all reality 698 00:58:58,519 --> 00:59:06,280 is reduced to is pure matter reductionism, then ultimate reality is impersonal and other 699 00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:10,280 things would follow from that too, Like in philosophy there's fancy words like the 700 00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:15,719 world of the universe would be disteleological. That just means that there's no telos 701 00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:19,239 or purpose to it. Everything's just sort of random chaos. So if everything's 702 00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:22,519 random chaos, then it follows from that that, well, my life is 703 00:59:22,519 --> 00:59:28,199 also chaos. This week is chaos, today's chaos. My argument is our 704 00:59:28,199 --> 00:59:31,320 discussion today is chaos. So essentially kind of it becomes a form of nihilism 705 00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:37,239 ultimately, And yeah, I think I was trying to argue that nihilism is 706 00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:40,480 sort of the end result of a lot of revolutionary anarcho philosophy. Right, 707 00:59:40,519 --> 00:59:45,960 So the same would apply to communism as well, Right, So I'm not 708 00:59:45,039 --> 00:59:51,400 just just saying that revolutionary philosophy in terms of anarchists are problematic, but also 709 00:59:52,039 --> 00:59:59,480 socialism, collectivism. All revolutionary philosophies kind of have this this issue with whether 710 00:59:59,719 --> 01:00:02,639 the actually makes sense and has a purpose or a goal. And you know, 711 01:00:02,639 --> 01:00:07,159 if you read Brave New World, he kind of says, well, 712 01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:10,199 all the revolutions were for this, for Brave New World. So well, 713 01:00:10,199 --> 01:00:14,599 wait a minute, I thought revolutions were about freedom and humanity. No, 714 01:00:14,599 --> 01:00:17,719 no, they're actually anti freedom and they're antihum. So so it's like revolutions 715 01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:24,639 kind of seem to go in that uh, irrational disteleological direction. And I 716 01:00:24,679 --> 01:00:30,159 was pulling from an argument there that doctor Phil Cherrard and father Dimitri Steniloi, 717 01:00:30,199 --> 01:00:37,679 a famous Orthodox theologian. They kind of make this point that certain religions posit 718 01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:44,039 and impersonal absolute and if if all reality is impersonal, if the absolute is 719 01:00:44,079 --> 01:00:47,360 just a force or impersonal, then you would have this sort of nihilistic end 720 01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:53,440 result. What would you call, Well, you've got like hardcore atheism, 721 01:00:53,559 --> 01:00:59,800 but then you've got deism, which basically says that God made a watch and 722 01:01:00,480 --> 01:01:06,079 this is the watch. There are Buddhists, like they're about of Buddhism doesn't 723 01:01:06,119 --> 01:01:08,800 believe in a God, but they believe in karma. But to me, 724 01:01:10,679 --> 01:01:16,280 if you're going to believe in karma, you're believing in something metaphysical and incomprehensible, 725 01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:22,800 which I think could easily substitute for God. And actually am manual Kant, 726 01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:25,559 that's one of his arguments for the existence of God is karma, and 727 01:01:25,599 --> 01:01:32,360 of course he doesn't call it karma. But so I like your take on 728 01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:37,159 that. Yeah, there's areas of Kant that I like. For example, 729 01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:43,880 I believe in what I think is the best sort of logical philosophical argument for 730 01:01:43,880 --> 01:01:49,159 God's existence is the transcendental argument for God's existence, and it has some parallels 731 01:01:49,199 --> 01:01:52,840 and overlap with Kant in that Kant did a lot of transcendental arguments. He 732 01:01:52,920 --> 01:01:57,719 didn't, however, do the transcedental argument for God because Kant thought that all 733 01:01:57,719 --> 01:02:02,719 the transcendental categories were purely mental, and so they're kind of mental structuring features 734 01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:07,800 that you impose on the world for the raw sense data that comes in. 735 01:02:08,039 --> 01:02:12,960 I'm not a Hegelian, but one interesting thing that Hegel did was he took 736 01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:16,480 that insight from Kant and he said, it doesn't really make sense to think 737 01:02:16,519 --> 01:02:21,119 that these categories are grounded in the human mind, because the human mind is 738 01:02:21,159 --> 01:02:25,760 finite, and there's a pretty serious problems and cons of you. For example, 739 01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:31,440 Kant couldn't ever know if other minds operate the way he thought the mind 740 01:02:31,519 --> 01:02:35,880 worked, because other minds would be, for example, in the realm of 741 01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:39,840 the numena that goes outside of what Kant thinks you can know the phenomena. 742 01:02:39,960 --> 01:02:45,960 So Hegel says a better move would be to say that the structuring categories or 743 01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:52,199 the transcendental categories that make knowledge possible are grounded in the divine mind. Now, 744 01:02:52,199 --> 01:02:55,639 I don't believe in Hegel's view of God or his political philosophy. I 745 01:02:55,800 --> 01:03:04,280 just specifically think that that move that he made is a possible solution to one 746 01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:07,480 of the problems in CONT's view. And so the transcendental argument for God is 747 01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:13,280 basically saying that the transcendental categories that talks about have to be the case for 748 01:03:13,440 --> 01:03:16,519 knowledge to even be possible, and that God's existence is the very thing that 749 01:03:16,559 --> 01:03:22,480 would make knowledge possible. So that's the move I would agree with. As 750 01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:25,400 for Buddhism, I'm not super studied in Eastern philosophy, but I think that 751 01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:32,400 a lot of Eastern philosophies tend to kind of fall over into basically viewing reality 752 01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:37,960 typically as something illusory, or they tend to sort of embrace a lot of 753 01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:45,679 contradictions at times. So to me, that would kind of just negate whether 754 01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:50,440 they have the ability in an epistemic sense to justify knowledge. So I always 755 01:03:50,559 --> 01:03:54,199 put a high value in my argumentation on whether the knowledge that we have or 756 01:03:54,199 --> 01:04:00,079 the knowledge claims can be epistemically justified. And typically, uh, I've never 757 01:04:00,119 --> 01:04:03,400 I had one interaction with a Buddhist gay maybe three years ago, we had 758 01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:10,119 a discussion on a podcast, but it's not it's not a field I've interacted 759 01:04:10,159 --> 01:04:13,719 with a lot, But typically they don't really care about the kinds of things 760 01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:16,559 that people in Western philosophy are looking for, like justified true belief. I 761 01:04:16,559 --> 01:04:19,280 think most Buddhists said, well, we don't really, we're not really interested 762 01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:27,840 in doing that. I read Hegel as an undergrad, and we're he'd completely 763 01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:33,599 lost me was absolute spirit hovering over Prussia. Yeah, I definitely think that 764 01:04:33,679 --> 01:04:38,239 his overall, his system is ridiculous. So I don't want to give the 765 01:04:38,239 --> 01:04:41,760 impression that I'm a Hegelian. I just thought that one move that he makes 766 01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:45,480 to critique con is an interesting insight. It actually works for people who do 767 01:04:45,559 --> 01:04:50,199 believe in uh in philosophy, it's theology. It's called divine conceptualism, and 768 01:04:50,239 --> 01:04:57,280 this is an approach where reality is grounded in the divine mind. Basically is 769 01:04:57,599 --> 01:05:02,840 what that's all about. So with Kant, you had the rationalists and they 770 01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:10,000 said that truth can be deciphered within, and then you had the empiricists who 771 01:05:10,079 --> 01:05:17,440 said that you can only decipher truth by measuring by external experience. And they 772 01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:23,559 were at odds with each other. But Emmanuel Kant brought them together and he 773 01:05:23,719 --> 01:05:30,639 said that we have twelve categories of reason, and that we have this we 774 01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:35,519 called it intuition of space and time, and that these twelve categories of reason 775 01:05:35,599 --> 01:05:42,639 have to align with the space and time, and that's how we ultimately discern 776 01:05:42,719 --> 01:05:45,239 truth. So he was able to bring the rationalists and the empiricists together. 777 01:05:46,519 --> 01:05:51,880 And a lot of people have argued that so cont is basically saying, and 778 01:05:53,239 --> 01:05:56,559 I don't know how many categories and pure reason there are, but it sounds 779 01:05:56,599 --> 01:06:01,559 like I'm sure that I believe that humans are hardwired. And that's one of 780 01:06:01,559 --> 01:06:08,960 the things that Kant is driving now and an Eastern thought. In many Eastern 781 01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:15,920 schools, humans are hardwired. Plato, humans are hardwired. And we had 782 01:06:16,039 --> 01:06:23,039 Chomsky come out and say that humans are hardwired for language, which was kind 783 01:06:23,039 --> 01:06:29,960 of revolutionary because it completely overturned what we thought was tabula rasa. But when 784 01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:36,719 we get into mathematics, I've got, you know, I'm kind of our 785 01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:44,159 mathematics a truth. There is mathematics a truth. I'm a little bit torn 786 01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:54,360 with that because I believe, I mean, the Fibonacci sequence shows up a 787 01:06:54,400 --> 01:07:01,360 lot of places in nature, so obviously that is mimicking reality, the Fibonacci 788 01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:06,800 sequels. Now, with Kant, he would say he had what's called an 789 01:07:08,360 --> 01:07:14,960 a priori synthetic argument, And what he meant by that is such truths are 790 01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:19,280 known a priori since they apply with strict and universal necessity to all objects of 791 01:07:19,320 --> 01:07:25,840 our experience, what without having been derived from that experience itself. So Kant 792 01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:31,079 would say that when you're measuring the hypotenuse of the right triangle, a escort 793 01:07:31,159 --> 01:07:35,480 plus b s cort equals c squord. He would say that that because that's 794 01:07:35,639 --> 01:07:40,840 always going to be that way. He would say that we have knowledge of 795 01:07:40,880 --> 01:07:47,440 that within ourselves and that it is a constant truth. And here is my 796 01:07:48,679 --> 01:07:59,280 problem with kant and mathematics those when you get into Euclidean geometry, you've got 797 01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:08,599 wonderful equations that are really simplistic and elegant, like the pythagora in theorem maysquare 798 01:08:09,119 --> 01:08:15,640 scored equals scored. But then Einstein came along with general relativity and he showed 799 01:08:15,640 --> 01:08:20,560 that straight lines are only in the minds of humans, that they do not 800 01:08:20,720 --> 01:08:29,600 exist in reality. And Euclidean geometry is predicated on straight lines. So what 801 01:08:29,720 --> 01:08:32,079 are we to make of that. Well, one way that you could kind 802 01:08:32,079 --> 01:08:38,239 of bypass that whole discussion about the status of geometrical objects or whatever would be 803 01:08:38,239 --> 01:08:42,600 to talk about universals and universal claims. Right, So, for example, 804 01:08:42,680 --> 01:08:48,039 to say, like all straight lines only exist in the mind as a straight 805 01:08:48,119 --> 01:08:54,319 line would be a universal claim. So, even though perhaps Einstein wouldn't be 806 01:08:54,359 --> 01:08:59,159 interested in revisiting these kind of medieval discussions, the fact that people don't want 807 01:08:59,199 --> 01:09:02,880 to revisit those tops which doesn't mean that they're not underlying the possibility of predication. 808 01:09:03,079 --> 01:09:08,439 So I think that this just brings us back to questions of uh, 809 01:09:08,520 --> 01:09:13,720 you know, the existence of universals, which I think that language I always 810 01:09:13,720 --> 01:09:17,279 already the language requires it. So we need we need metaphysics, we need 811 01:09:17,479 --> 01:09:23,600 universals, we need universal categories, and we can't escape those things by you 812 01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:29,039 know, the Kantient move to psychologize it, or the skeptical move to basically 813 01:09:29,159 --> 01:09:32,000 say that there's only particulars like David Hume or something like that. All of 814 01:09:32,079 --> 01:09:38,520 those positions end up being kind of destructive to the possibility of having knowledge. 815 01:09:38,600 --> 01:09:44,600 So so I would just say that we can broaden the question beyond the status 816 01:09:44,680 --> 01:09:49,159 of math or geometrical objects to return it to the question of universals. And 817 01:09:50,279 --> 01:09:54,439 there have to be universal categories. The only way to have a universal is 818 01:09:54,520 --> 01:09:59,680 to say that there's a divine mind that houses the universals. I would agree 819 01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:04,840 with that. It's interesting. I wrote a book that or a co author 820 01:10:04,880 --> 01:10:13,920 of a book that run in Kantian thought, and there were two other co 821 01:10:14,039 --> 01:10:16,319 authors, and they weren't really familiar with Khan. So I was the guy 822 01:10:16,359 --> 01:10:20,640 that kind of carried the water on that one. And I didn't realize you 823 01:10:20,720 --> 01:10:24,600 were a philosophy guy until today, So I just knew of you as kind 824 01:10:24,600 --> 01:10:30,439 of the you know, the journalist guy that writes about well, I am 825 01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:34,960 somewhat multi dimensional, but Kanty is. If you look at his critigue of 826 01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:40,399 Peer Reason, I mean it's a t KO in the first like five pages. 827 01:10:40,439 --> 01:10:44,560 For most people, it's probably the most esoteric book ever written, except 828 01:10:44,640 --> 01:10:55,640 for maybe James Joycean's Wake. But I became a kantient to a certain degree. 829 01:10:55,720 --> 01:11:00,439 I mean, I see where his thought is problematic. But I rated 830 01:11:00,520 --> 01:11:04,880 Kant into this book that we wrote and what was interesting and which kind of 831 01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:08,680 gives you an idea that you know, I have pretty good working knowledge of 832 01:11:08,760 --> 01:11:12,399 kind. And I was going out with a woman who had the Critique of 833 01:11:12,479 --> 01:11:16,960 Pure Reason on her bookshelf. Wow, And I started to page through it 834 01:11:17,960 --> 01:11:20,359 and I started to read it, and then I realized, you know, 835 01:11:20,399 --> 01:11:27,399 if I continue to read this book, I will not know con I'm more 836 01:11:27,439 --> 01:11:30,199 amazed that you were dating a woman that was in the I've never heard of 837 01:11:30,439 --> 01:11:33,600 of a woman at the cont That's interesting. So, Jay, I really 838 01:11:33,680 --> 01:11:36,319 want to thank you for coming on the Nick Brian podcast. You've been a 839 01:11:36,359 --> 01:11:40,279 great guest. Thank you. Yeah, I want to have you on and 840 01:11:40,319 --> 01:11:42,720 we can get into some of your work as well. I didn't mean to 841 01:11:43,359 --> 01:11:45,640 to uh, pigeonhole you as one dimensional. I just didn't know that you 842 01:11:46,640 --> 01:11:50,680 those other topics I didn't. I don't mind being pigeonholed, doesn't me too 843 01:11:50,760 --> 01:11:54,840 much. Have yourself a great night, all right, Thank you, Nick, 844 01:11:54,880 --> 01:11:56,680 appreciate it. Have a good night. Take care. Jay,