1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,759 Hello. Today, we're going to talking about two thousand and five movie Thank 2 00:00:03,759 --> 00:00:08,000 You for Smoking. We're going to be talking about the psychology of persuasion and 3 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:12,240 also mostly focusing on the character of Nick, played by Aaron Eckhart. But 4 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:15,679 before we jump into all that, I'm going to have our guests introduce himself. 5 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:21,199 Andy, go ahead, Hello, I'm Andy. I'm Andy. I'm 6 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:27,519 a professor of psychology, and I study this psychology of persuasion, including the 7 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:32,079 attitudes that we hold, the opinions that we develop about all sorts of things, 8 00:00:32,719 --> 00:00:35,679 and how they change. So in my day to day work, I 9 00:00:35,799 --> 00:00:40,840 teach out these topics at university, I conduct research on these topics in my 10 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:45,640 lab, and I also host and produce a podcast called Opinion Science, which 11 00:00:45,719 --> 00:00:50,679 is really built to explore this question in depth every couple weeks by talking to 12 00:00:50,759 --> 00:00:56,840 social scientists like psychologists, political scientists, communication scholars, and professional communicators like 13 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:02,479 film critics. I've talked to political campaign managers, people who do public opinion 14 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:07,040 polling to get to the bottom of where are people's opinions coming from and what 15 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:11,959 are they shaped by? All right, very cool, so perfect for today's 16 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:15,120 movie. So the plot, the Bare Bones plot of this movie is we 17 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:19,640 follow Nick Naylor, a spin doctor if you will, for the tobacco industry, 18 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:25,760 and we sort of follow him as he tries to schmooz his way through 19 00:01:25,799 --> 00:01:30,680 a lot of situations and then eventually loses his role as the big old like 20 00:01:30,719 --> 00:01:34,680 I said, like Sultan of spin and then who is he without his job? 21 00:01:34,879 --> 00:01:38,719 So I think what's interesting about this movie, we'll talk about this first 22 00:01:38,799 --> 00:01:44,560 part is what we see him do throughout the movie, which is convince people 23 00:01:44,599 --> 00:01:49,519 that smoking isn't bad for you. The question right is arguing. He focuses 24 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:56,159 his entire work as a lobbyist on the argument, and his entire job is 25 00:01:56,239 --> 00:02:04,519 to distract people away from their convictions by appealing to their logic and other emotions 26 00:02:04,599 --> 00:02:08,800 and uses mind games to direct their attention away from their own point to the 27 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:14,560 point they get confused. And he's really really good at it. He's very 28 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:15,639 good at it. He makes a point in the movie a few times to 29 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:20,560 basically say, you don't go to school for what he does. Either like 30 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,280 have it or you don't, and he has it in spades, and he's 31 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:28,560 very secure in that part of his identity a thousand percent. And if you 32 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,800 argue correctly. You are never wrong, oh, because it's not about being 33 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:37,759 wrong, it's about can you bamboozle the other person to the point of distraction. 34 00:02:38,039 --> 00:02:42,520 Sometimes that's all you need. So first, if you could you kind 35 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:46,960 of touch upon it already, Andy, But what exactly is the psychology of 36 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:52,360 persuasion? As you too? Yeah, So I was excited to revisit this 37 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:54,000 movie. I was trying to think, like, what is what in the 38 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:59,319 history of cinema, Like where is this persuasion? Where? What would I 39 00:02:59,319 --> 00:03:02,599 have something to talk about? And I remembered this movie that I saw a 40 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:07,599 long time ago, and as an anecdotal aside, this was the reason I 41 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:14,000 turned my DVD player on after probably the three to four years I wasn't we 42 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:15,560 couldn't remember if we had one. I was talking to my wife, I 43 00:03:15,599 --> 00:03:17,759 was like, we have to watch this on DVD, and she's like, 44 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:23,520 do we even have a DVD player? Because I bought the DVD in college, 45 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:27,919 I think whenever it came out, and I was interested in it at 46 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:32,360 the time because it was lauded, is this great satire and had no idea 47 00:03:32,479 --> 00:03:37,360 that you know, fast forward whatever fifteen years that this would be actually the 48 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:39,479 work that I'm doing is trying to understand the kinds of things that he's up 49 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:46,159 to. So persuasion, if we think of it psychologically, we often define 50 00:03:46,199 --> 00:03:53,759 it as communication of a message with the intention to change a person's attitude, 51 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:58,000 you could say, change people's belief or opinion at the same time. So 52 00:03:58,039 --> 00:04:02,159 it's a form of communication that ultimately is trying to shape the way the other 53 00:04:02,199 --> 00:04:08,360 person sees the world. And so in this case, his job is to 54 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:14,159 shape people's opinions about tobacco products such that they're not as negative as you know, 55 00:04:15,439 --> 00:04:19,000 Big Medicine is making it out to be. And so through various tactics, 56 00:04:19,079 --> 00:04:26,279 some just logical argument, some through storytelling, some through framing the issue 57 00:04:26,319 --> 00:04:29,959 in a very particular way. So as like Ben said, to distract people 58 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:34,879 from other considerations, he's aiming ultimately through all of that, to get people 59 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:40,399 to be more favorable in their personal opinions of tobacco products. So in that 60 00:04:40,439 --> 00:04:45,240 way, that's what he's doing, is persuading. I would say he's using 61 00:04:45,319 --> 00:04:48,759 kind of the classic techniques we sort of think of now when we think of 62 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:53,120 gas lighting, like you kind of put it, Ben, like swerving the 63 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:57,560 conversation so that you end up not even arguing about the thing where the topic 64 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:04,240 started and diverting it tension then also feeding on emotional responses in a way that 65 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:10,959 makes the argue worth or the person they're debating against feel less grounded in the 66 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:15,240 point they're making and more driven by their emotional responses, which then the person 67 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:17,959 who's doing the gaslighting can feed upon. I think a good example of that 68 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:25,240 is when he's in front of Bill William H. Macy's senator character whose name 69 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:27,480 I could not tell you. I can see it in my mind's eye, 70 00:05:27,519 --> 00:05:30,079 but I cannot remember how they pronounced it in that movie because it's a wild 71 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:34,279 name, and he gets the better of him so quickly by appealing to what 72 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:39,639 he knows, makes that senator emotional, and it was like genuinely disappointing to 73 00:05:39,639 --> 00:05:43,360 see the senator lose the plot so quickly. I'm like, why are you 74 00:05:43,399 --> 00:05:46,680 letting him get your goal? But that is like point of gaslighting in a 75 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:50,800 lot of ways is to make the other person so discombobulated emotionally that you can 76 00:05:50,879 --> 00:05:56,560 undercut them. I had never quite drawn it to gaslighting before. So one 77 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:02,120 thing that's worth maybe mentioning is historically they're actually the way that tobacco lobbyists have 78 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:06,439 done their job for ages. There's this great quote from these old documents that 79 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:12,199 they pulled up in you know, legislating about this stuff, internal memos from 80 00:06:12,319 --> 00:06:17,879 you know, some big tobacco lobbyer company that said doubt is the product their 81 00:06:17,959 --> 00:06:23,199 whole job. They go, I can't convince you that smoking is healthy. 82 00:06:23,639 --> 00:06:28,560 Will never win if that's our strategy. But what I can do is so 83 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,199 seeds of doubt, right, I can say, well, but how strong 84 00:06:31,319 --> 00:06:35,160 is the research that shows that it's bad for you? Don't these scientists have 85 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:41,639 a particular vested interest in finding some outcome. In the movie, he calls 86 00:06:41,639 --> 00:06:45,800 out this poor little girl who says, my mom says that smoking is bad 87 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:47,199 for you, And he says, well, that doesn't sound like a very 88 00:06:47,199 --> 00:06:54,160 credible expert to you, does it? Is your mama scientists or whatever is 89 00:06:54,199 --> 00:06:59,839 your mama doctor or a researcher yep. And so all of that is just 90 00:07:00,079 --> 00:07:02,439 sort of planting seeds of doubt. And there's this beautiful point later on where 91 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:06,439 he's talking to his son and they're trying to argue about the best flavor of 92 00:07:06,439 --> 00:07:10,639 ice cream, and in the end, the sun is like, well, 93 00:07:10,639 --> 00:07:14,480 but you never convinced me that chocolate is the best. You just convinced me 94 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:15,720 that the best is not vanilla. And he's like, well, I didn't 95 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,079 have to tell you, like I just needed to prove you wrong, and 96 00:07:19,279 --> 00:07:23,959 as a results, I'm right. And that sort of the idea. These 97 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:28,240 are folks who are not proving their own position to be true, but the 98 00:07:28,319 --> 00:07:33,879 only real chance they have at success is to suggest that the sort of prevailing 99 00:07:33,959 --> 00:07:42,439 narrative is faulty somehow. And in that argument style where the person playing the 100 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:48,759 game always has the advantage is that they have no vested interest in anything other 101 00:07:48,879 --> 00:07:55,759 than winning. That's it. So they are able to stay in their window 102 00:07:55,800 --> 00:08:03,639 of tolerance much easier and stay in their prefrontal cortex functioning instead of the exact 103 00:08:03,959 --> 00:08:09,800 opposite that is happening to their prey, who is getting stuck in emotional processing 104 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:15,839 and operating out of their Olympic system, and they're magulta driven responses which make 105 00:08:15,879 --> 00:08:22,839 them less logical and therefore unable to compete. And that is the entire game 106 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:28,800 is. If I can get you off base, off kilter, off your 107 00:08:28,839 --> 00:08:35,360 point, it doesn't matter what you prepared. I prepared nothing and I can 108 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:39,440 beat you. It reminds me of something my dad used to say, who 109 00:08:39,519 --> 00:08:43,960 is a political science professor, but you would tell me that it's important to 110 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:48,960 remember that the best swordsman in the world does not need to fear the second 111 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,799 best swordsman in the world because he's going to know absolutely everything he's going to 112 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:58,919 do. We does need to worry about is the worst swordsman in the world. 113 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:03,240 Oh wold card, mister Wines. We have you ever seen the show 114 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:11,039 Smart Guy when you all were kids? Disney Channel? Yeah? Little Brother, 115 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:15,240 Oh oh yeah, yeah, Yeah, there's this. It made such 116 00:09:15,279 --> 00:09:18,600 an impression on me. There's this episode where he's trying to beat a computer 117 00:09:18,799 --> 00:09:24,399 who's been programmed to play chess or something, and so this genius little kid 118 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:26,240 is working and working and trying to solve the dilemma of like how do I 119 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:31,919 win against this computer? And then like the idiot neighbor comes by and tries 120 00:09:31,919 --> 00:09:35,759 to play against him and just fries the circuits because he goes, You're the 121 00:09:35,799 --> 00:09:39,879 moves you're making don't make any sense. No reasonable person would do this, 122 00:09:41,039 --> 00:09:43,559 which, as I understand it, that's kind of what you're saying, right, 123 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,600 then, is it like it's so out of left field, it's it's 124 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,759 exactly like that. It's like that, or like playing poker with a drunk 125 00:09:50,799 --> 00:09:56,240 guy. He has a so much better chance him because he a doesn't isn't 126 00:09:56,279 --> 00:09:58,720 able to be connected to his motions, so he doesn't care, and you 127 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:03,440 have have literally no way of tracking what logic he's using, if any, 128 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:09,320 at any given moment, if you're sitting there trying to use counting or statistics 129 00:10:09,399 --> 00:10:13,960 or any other kind of reasonable strategy, you are quite possibly going to destroy 130 00:10:13,039 --> 00:10:16,840 him, or he is going to wipe you off the map and take all 131 00:10:16,879 --> 00:10:20,519 your money because he might go all in on nonsense and you never will. 132 00:10:20,879 --> 00:10:26,720 And therein lies exactly why Nick Naylor can defeat this entire When he goes on 133 00:10:26,759 --> 00:10:31,679 the talk show, he defeats an entire panel of people because he comes out 134 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,360 hot and answers the questions he wants to, not the ones he's asked, 135 00:10:35,879 --> 00:10:39,840 knocking them off balance and they don't even know where to do to begin to 136 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,879 recover, and they're left scrambling, which puts you in an emotional state. 137 00:10:43,039 --> 00:10:48,639 Yeah, they're definitely the weaker swordsman in that scenario for sure. Well, 138 00:10:48,639 --> 00:10:52,960 it's not even like, think about the battle in Princess Bride, right, 139 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:58,600 that is too equally matched competitors going playing games with each other, like, 140 00:10:58,879 --> 00:11:01,600 ha ha, I know something you don't know. I'm not left handed. 141 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:09,440 But if they were to battle somebody that makes just an incredibly bizarre random move 142 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:16,240 with no rationale, no thought, no anything but blind dumb luck, an 143 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:20,919 opportunity, with no perception of the risk that could be countered with strategy, 144 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:24,000 you can win. In my neck of the woods, there's this thing called 145 00:11:24,039 --> 00:11:28,320 inoculation theory, which is this very cute sea way of talking about how people 146 00:11:28,399 --> 00:11:33,480 resist persuasion by using this metaphor of how vaccines work. So I promise this 147 00:11:33,519 --> 00:11:37,200 is gonna be relevant in a second. So if you think about how vaccines 148 00:11:37,399 --> 00:11:41,279 work, right, we go, We're trying to protect the body against some 149 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:50,279 attack, right, and normally our bodies are vulnerable to attack because we haven't 150 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:54,480 had any opportunity to build defenses against it. Right, A novel virus comes 151 00:11:54,519 --> 00:11:58,720 along and you're not prepared for it. But if I take a vaccine, 152 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:03,159 which is essentially just preparing my body's immune response saying hey, hey body, 153 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:07,200 this is what that virus might look like if it shows up one day, 154 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:09,960 take a day or two to sort of build up how you might mount a 155 00:12:11,039 --> 00:12:15,879 defense, and then you've remembered that strategy for the day the virus really comes 156 00:12:15,879 --> 00:12:20,360 along. Okay, So in persuasion, the idea is that, well, 157 00:12:20,519 --> 00:12:26,759 sometimes we are defenseless against attack because we never saw the idea that this belief 158 00:12:26,879 --> 00:12:31,159 could be attacked coming. And so back in the day, this is stuff 159 00:12:31,159 --> 00:12:35,840 from the sixties, they would talk about things called cultural truisms, which are 160 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,919 these things that everybody believes, but nobody really has any reasons for believing things 161 00:12:39,919 --> 00:12:43,440 like an apple a day keeps the doctor away, and so we all sort 162 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,159 of believe it. But then if someone comes along and says, actually, 163 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:48,799 you know what, apples are not that great for your health, you go, 164 00:12:48,759 --> 00:12:54,600 I guess you're right. I don't I've never heard anyone challenge this viewpoint 165 00:12:54,639 --> 00:13:00,200 before, and I'm defenseless against it. But if you can give people of 166 00:13:00,279 --> 00:13:01,639 suggestion that, like, hey, you know what, someone might come along 167 00:13:01,759 --> 00:13:07,360 and say apples are not healthy, take a few seconds to think about what 168 00:13:07,399 --> 00:13:09,240 you might say to them. Here's a few things that you might say back 169 00:13:09,279 --> 00:13:13,480 to them, and then people are more able to resist persuasion. So in 170 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:20,120 this case, when you talk about people sort of being ill prepared to defend 171 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:24,000 their views, in some cases you go, who is this person who's saying 172 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:28,600 smoking is fine? Like, I'm not used to hearing that. I'm defenseless 173 00:13:28,639 --> 00:13:31,159 against it, and in this moment, I've got nothing to say, right, 174 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:35,000 But this is a guy. Naylor's a guy who spends his whole life 175 00:13:35,399 --> 00:13:37,720 thinking about what are the objections people are going to have to what I say, 176 00:13:39,159 --> 00:13:41,480 and I'm ready to take those down. And so it's a difference in 177 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:48,240 preparedness. So a little persuasion trivia that connected, I think to what you're 178 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:54,879 saying, absolutely and recognizing that the more prepared you are, the more you 179 00:13:54,960 --> 00:14:00,960 walk in with enough confidence to again stay within your window tolerance, which allows 180 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:05,519 you to stay on mission, stay on point, and resist anybody else's attempts 181 00:14:05,639 --> 00:14:11,240 to knock you off your point, especially once they become irrational and flustered, 182 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:16,279 because once you get your opening, they're now out of their technique. But 183 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:20,840 you have honed yours for that exact moment, and you have a huge advantage. 184 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,480 It's why you know, Andy, you basically just described Facebook. Over 185 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:30,799 the last three years, I was really resisting opportunity to ask you, like, 186 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:37,799 so, what if an apple is a hoax? Okay, yeah, 187 00:14:37,799 --> 00:14:41,600 but let's let's go ahead and disprove a nople hypothesis. Good luck. But 188 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,279 the for what it's worth, So, indoculation has been used to help people 189 00:14:46,879 --> 00:14:52,480 confront misinformation on social media. And so part of why we're swindled by misinformation 190 00:14:54,039 --> 00:14:56,879 is because we go, well, no one would just tell me something fake, 191 00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:01,919 like, no one would just make a up a user name that simulates 192 00:15:01,919 --> 00:15:05,240 a real person to convince me that something is real. But if you inoculate 193 00:15:05,279 --> 00:15:09,080 against that and say, hey, you know what, imagine you did see 194 00:15:09,159 --> 00:15:13,399 something like this, what might you look for to be on guard for the 195 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:18,360 possibility is that this isn't good information that is proving this is like in the 196 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:22,039 last two to three years to be like a really powerful strategy to help people 197 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:28,360 counter misinformation when they encounter it online. And that has been part of quite 198 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:33,879 a few continuing education training said I have done on trying to help people learn 199 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,679 how to deal with when you go to the family and dinner and uncle Timmy 200 00:15:37,799 --> 00:15:45,440 has had four beers and been obviously watching things that look like news on YouTube 201 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,840 and reading Q and on and here we go. But if you learn an 202 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:54,720 inoculation strategy to give yourself some defense to prepare for that argument, it gets 203 00:15:54,799 --> 00:16:00,360 much easier to stay in your window of tolerance, deflect the blows, or 204 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,600 guide the conversation away from that artfully. But when you get stuck in that 205 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:08,799 point where you're just feeling so incredulously called up, what did you just say? 206 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:15,000 Did you? Did you really just try to argue that I'm going to 207 00:16:15,559 --> 00:16:23,360 become a conduit for five G through nanotechnology that goes into my veins? Do 208 00:16:23,399 --> 00:16:26,679 you even know what these words mean when they're put together in a concrete sentence, 209 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:30,320 And they don't, but they feel like they do, so they lock 210 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:36,320 into their argument and they become a nick nayler who will argue you to death. 211 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:41,240 It's part of the old thing of never argue with an idiot, because 212 00:16:41,279 --> 00:16:45,799 they will take you down to their level and beat you with experience. But 213 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,000 I think kind of what you were saying, Andy, and like the last 214 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,759 like a few minutes of this movie, we do see him start to become 215 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,240 like an oculation expert, I guess, and that he starts to do what 216 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:59,559 you're talking about, which is teach Congress people. I think that's who they 217 00:16:59,559 --> 00:17:04,559 were politicians at least to prepare for someone like him, which is like a 218 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:08,319 great it was a great secondary career path for him to end up being. 219 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,799 It's like when people get arrested and then they end up being the expert in 220 00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:17,480 security or whatever for like the businesses that do that because they are the best 221 00:17:17,519 --> 00:17:22,039 thief. You know. It's a very very similar idea. And I think 222 00:17:22,039 --> 00:17:25,559 what it makes me think of two but I'll just mentioned it briefly because I 223 00:17:25,559 --> 00:17:27,079 don't want to get us caught on a tangent. Is it reminds me so 224 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:32,960 much too of how like this tactic of how I see a lot lately about 225 00:17:33,839 --> 00:17:38,640 men are men are logical, women are emotional, right of and people get 226 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:42,000 kind of in arguments of that. And I think this uses like that idea 227 00:17:42,039 --> 00:17:45,599 as well, which is this idea that some people are logically centered and other 228 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:52,599 people are emotionally centered, and realizing that that's not inherently true, but we 229 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,680 do take advantage of that and try to act like you can be one or 230 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:57,680 the other. Where what he's doing is a combination. That's what gaslighting is 231 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:03,200 too, is you're using logic to enact someone's emotion, but then acting like 232 00:18:03,279 --> 00:18:07,480 it isn't I don't know anyone else tetically a gas lighting because I know something 233 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:11,000 I want to touch upon was like the dehumanizing you see in this movie. 234 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,319 Nope, I'll go for it. Well, I think what this movie does 235 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:18,160 really artfully because I know it's a satire, so they were really making a 236 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:23,000 point obviously, is all the little moments throughout this movie where you see the 237 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:29,839 effect of dehumanization. Where one great example was when they go to LA and 238 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:34,079 there's that Asian man they do not give us his specific ethnicity, who is 239 00:18:34,759 --> 00:18:41,720 basically just uses I don't know, like a not a toy, but like 240 00:18:41,759 --> 00:18:45,759 an exhibit in the middle of their offices where he's just raking a zen like 241 00:18:45,799 --> 00:18:51,119 a stereotypical like what white people call, like a Japanese a zen garden, 242 00:18:51,759 --> 00:18:53,839 and they don't really mention him. He's just seen off screen. But then 243 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:59,559 also when they're going through the same LA building, this is inside joke where 244 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:00,920 like the one guy walking them through is really into the other guy. But 245 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:07,079 I think they were all just these little tiny ways that we dehumanize others as 246 00:19:07,079 --> 00:19:11,240 think as a way to make these arguments and live in these truth quote unquote 247 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,799 that are sort of awful is in order to take advantage of people, we 248 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:21,079 have to dehumanize them in order to live with ourselves, to take advantage of 249 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:23,759 them. And even in how the movie opens, the movie opens with this 250 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:30,039 character that's just called cancer boy, this boy with cancer, and how even 251 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:34,519 the way that they talk about him, yes, all the ways that they 252 00:19:34,559 --> 00:19:40,400 talk about him, because even the person is supposed to be like the quote 253 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:44,160 unquote good guy, the who Hannah, you said, was this is supposed 254 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:51,279 to be an insert for Bernie Sanders. Yeah, is he's even saying like 255 00:19:51,319 --> 00:19:56,359 that wasn't the right kind of cancer boy. And so everyone in this in 256 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:03,000 this spin cycle is using other people as pawns. And we have to, 257 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,119 like I said, to humanize others in order to live with ourselves and our 258 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:11,799 agendas. Like you would even see a big part of why there is continuing 259 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,160 race issues in America, I'll just name that, is because in order to 260 00:20:15,279 --> 00:20:19,200 have enslaved people, we had to dehumanize African American people. And now we 261 00:20:19,279 --> 00:20:26,279 are still dealing with the generations and generational impact of having done that for so 262 00:20:26,319 --> 00:20:32,559 long, and we see it happen all over the world and every atrocity that 263 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:38,759 has happened, where there's been any degree of racial extermination or ethnic cleansing, 264 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:45,240 any other horrible way that one human sought to gain power over another human by 265 00:20:45,279 --> 00:20:51,799 creating a common enemy. Right, we create some kind of xenophobia against some 266 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:56,759 unspecified other that we create a successful target and find some of those andy, 267 00:20:56,759 --> 00:21:00,880 I forgot what word you use to describe beliefs that people believe are what was 268 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:07,000 the truism? Look at that? Look how simple that is. Looking at 269 00:21:07,039 --> 00:21:14,720 these truisms that people may believe no basis, and then exploiting them by weaponizing 270 00:21:14,759 --> 00:21:19,920 the mothering of human beings. But when people can start locking into these little 271 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:26,079 things, they can start creating caricatures in their minds that allow them to access 272 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:33,839 evil parts of their brain that can view that person as biologically speaking, a 273 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:38,880 competitor for resources and marginalize them in order to take more for yourself. And 274 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:44,559 it's it's really horrible. How did the Holocaust happen? Let's start with how 275 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:49,759 much time did Hitler and the Nazi Party spend dehumanizing anyone who is Jewish or 276 00:21:51,599 --> 00:21:57,240 a Gypsy or different different, not you know, white basically, and the 277 00:21:57,319 --> 00:22:02,599 right kind of White, and I think it helps us understand from a psychological 278 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:10,240 standpoint with this movie of how can someone or how can multiple people defend something 279 00:22:10,279 --> 00:22:15,160 like tobacco, which we all know is inherently harmful and is a simple, 280 00:22:15,319 --> 00:22:22,640 like one of the most simplistically for profit, horrible for humanity things that exists, 281 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,640 products that exist as a lot of them. But even in the within 282 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:30,680 the tobacco world, they know they're creating a product that makes them a lot 283 00:22:30,759 --> 00:22:33,440 of money but also kills a lot of people. And so in order for 284 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:40,119 them to deal, they have to dehumanize them, like you can't even like 285 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:45,000 the sort of worst human being if you will, has to do that in 286 00:22:45,079 --> 00:22:48,720 order to keep going with the with the plot, with their mission. If 287 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:53,599 the mission is just making money, then I have to detach emotionally from the 288 00:22:53,599 --> 00:22:59,720 fact that I'm harming others for personal capital gain. And so you have to 289 00:23:00,039 --> 00:23:03,079 humanize in order to like not have a full blown, like mental breakdown. 290 00:23:03,279 --> 00:23:08,519 And I think a part of what when we see Joey engage in gaslighting with 291 00:23:08,599 --> 00:23:12,799 his mother, that he's that his dad has showed him how to dehumanize women, 292 00:23:14,519 --> 00:23:18,960 and how that is a part of how that is kind of a part 293 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:23,319 of what we see happening with Joey and his mother and how that has such 294 00:23:23,319 --> 00:23:27,720 a different impact on the dynamic of the family. But just more, it's 295 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:33,319 just kind of interesting how when parents model something that this is kind of what 296 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,519 we what can happen right away is that a kid wants to be able to 297 00:23:37,559 --> 00:23:42,079 do that. And I think that just so just shows how easy dehumanizing is 298 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:48,720 taught, is shown and just him, just him observing his father engage with 299 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:53,359 other people anyway, That's that's what I was thinking about. Sure I saw 300 00:23:53,440 --> 00:24:00,119 him dehumanize the stepdad a lot. Yeah, absolutely, he I mean, 301 00:24:00,319 --> 00:24:03,319 Nick is we're gonna talking about in a second, He's like, no, 302 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:04,400 I guess offense. I was gonna say, no offense. Why am I 303 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:10,640 were about offending him? He is like a royal dude, and he's living 304 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:15,359 through life isolated, way more isolated than I think he would he would acknowledge 305 00:24:15,839 --> 00:24:22,599 because he is hyper dehumanizing everybody around him. So it would be wild if 306 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,039 his child, after spending a decent amount of time with him, wouldn't take 307 00:24:26,039 --> 00:24:30,240 on some of those traits, because something we do see is him so clearly 308 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:34,200 wanting his dad's approval the way that you want the approval of any of either 309 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,400 of your parent, but especially a parent who's not as available, you tend 310 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,079 to want their approval way more than the parent who sticks around or is just 311 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:48,279 more available. And so, of course he wants to take on the traits 312 00:24:48,319 --> 00:24:51,200 of his dad. And you're right, like, what is misogyny if not 313 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:57,559 dehumanizing women and making them just a collection of annoying traits wearing a trench coat, 314 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:02,400 you know, and I don't actually like human being. That's the same 315 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:06,920 as you and so. And it's interesting because that switch for Joey happens so 316 00:25:07,039 --> 00:25:11,279 quickly. In the first thing of the movie where that he's in you can 317 00:25:11,319 --> 00:25:12,960 tell he does not like his dad. He even says like, do not 318 00:25:14,039 --> 00:25:18,759 ruin my childhood when he shows up at the career day, and by the 319 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:23,480 end of it, he's like fully indoctrinated and to like his dad's way of 320 00:25:23,519 --> 00:25:27,599 thinking. And I think he is at that very tender age though, when 321 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:33,519 that happens, when you're starting to be more aware socially and you're more wanting 322 00:25:33,559 --> 00:25:37,720 to align with the parent who's not around, I think it's important to mention 323 00:25:37,799 --> 00:25:45,000 with dehumanization that the opposite is true when people are receiving training on anti terrorism 324 00:25:45,079 --> 00:25:51,319 and how to deal with possibly being taken captive. Is it is encouraged to 325 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:56,279 humanize yourself to counter the processes that are going on in the mind of the 326 00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:03,799 cap tour And in a movie we haven't done yet because reasons you see that 327 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:11,680 so much happen in Silence with the Lambs, where Buffalo Bill is actively resisting 328 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:17,160 the girl in the pit trying to humanize herself, and you see him start 329 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:22,000 to freak out when she starts talking about being a person, and then he 330 00:26:22,039 --> 00:26:26,799 starts referring her to her as it so he can do what he's going to 331 00:26:26,799 --> 00:26:30,160 do. It puts the lotion on its skin, and when she's like, 332 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:36,640 I'm a person, I'm a woman, right. But we see Nick essentially 333 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:42,319 train his son that if you create a special pocket in your mind to put 334 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:47,759 other people in that you've made a game out of it makes it easier to 335 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:52,839 win and you don't have to care or think about their feelings. And I 336 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,359 didn't see him do that so much to the wife as I did to the 337 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,960 stepdad. He definitely is my suge Inness, Like, I'm not arguing that, 338 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:04,400 but he went after the stepdad because the stepdad has a position that Nick 339 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:10,440 once had and was expelled from, so he has resentment towards him, and 340 00:27:10,559 --> 00:27:15,279 he makes little offhand comments at mom, but he goes real specific in at 341 00:27:15,319 --> 00:27:19,400 stepdad. I meant, I meant more that he just picks it up from 342 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,720 his dad. I don't. I didn't mean that he saw the dad dehumanizing 343 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:30,119 the mom as much as he recognizes that he's always dehumanizing everyone that he's around, 344 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,960 and he just picked that up. So I know what you're Yeah, 345 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:34,960 so I know, but I know, I understand what you're saying. But 346 00:27:36,039 --> 00:27:40,000 it's more of that a kid will pick that up and try it out and 347 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,880 use that, and a part of that is him just watching him do that 348 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:48,559 to everybody. And I totally agree that Nick Naylor that he is attacking the 349 00:27:48,599 --> 00:27:53,200 stepdad in any way that he can, mostly because he's a bitch, because 350 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,680 he can't do with the fact that he acted like a complete maniac. I'm 351 00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,720 sure in that marriage that is a movie I would never want to watch. 352 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:07,160 Yeah, all right, Well, is there anything else about the psychology precision 353 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,160 we want to touch upon before we move on to Nick specifically? I was 354 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:15,400 only going to mention on dehumanization as a as a fairly self serving plug a 355 00:28:15,519 --> 00:28:19,799 year ago. I have a YouTube video on the psychology of dehumanization, which 356 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:22,960 when someone says I made a YouTube video, you better watch it, you're 357 00:28:23,039 --> 00:28:27,640 right to be suspicious. But this it's good. I think not all those 358 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:32,279 people have real PhDs. Andy, Yeah, yeah, And so I mean 359 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:34,559 internet on to that point. I mean, it's really built to be a 360 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,440 video that goes over like the research on this, like empirically, how can 361 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:44,240 we actually measure when someone is dehumanizing in others? We get into that who 362 00:28:44,279 --> 00:28:48,119 do we tend to humanize? One of the consequences. And I'll only say 363 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,799 as just to add a texture to what we're talking about. The intro the 364 00:28:52,839 --> 00:28:57,400 first like minute or two really was like a horrific and depressing thing to have 365 00:28:57,519 --> 00:29:04,440 to research to put this together, because it's in particular about this terrifying culture 366 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:11,279 of the kind of late nineteenth century early twentieth century, when there was this 367 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:17,039 phenomenon of human zoos at giant events, so at the world's fear. In 368 00:29:17,119 --> 00:29:22,119 order to sort of showcase these exotic peoples from the colonies, they literally would 369 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,119 take people from those places and put them on display in precisely the same way 370 00:29:26,119 --> 00:29:30,799 that we put non human animals on display in zoos. And here again it's 371 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:37,000 it's just sort of feeding a perception of some people as less than perfectly and 372 00:29:37,079 --> 00:29:41,880 fully human as a way to justify the ways in which those folks have been 373 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:48,839 treated, and so not to bring the mood in that direction, but you 374 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,440 know, it's the kind of thing that you can sort of look at through 375 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:56,160 a lot of different perspectives. So absolutely so we'll take a break here and 376 00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,000 we will be right back, all right. So, Nick, this piece 377 00:30:00,039 --> 00:30:07,160 of ships, well that just makes me think, I just like legitimately heard 378 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:12,200 you sound exactly like Natasha Lagaro when she was roasting Bieber like a compliment. 379 00:30:12,359 --> 00:30:15,440 I love her. Oh my god, I wish I had her voice. 380 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,240 You know, she's so specific. But when she was like time flies when 381 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:26,200 you're a piece of shit. Yeah, a quick plug if you guys. 382 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:30,480 If anyone here has ever watched Another Period, that is an excellent talk about 383 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:37,359 the dehumanization via reality TV. Another Period is a great mockery of reality TV. 384 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,000 Any who, So, Nick is someone I think one of the first 385 00:30:41,119 --> 00:30:45,319 notes I wrote when I was watching this movie is this guy is always on. 386 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:52,000 This is somebody who is fully doing this persona this like work version of 387 00:30:52,079 --> 00:30:59,000 himself constantly, like in his personal life and his professional life. He never 388 00:30:59,039 --> 00:31:03,720 seems like he's someone one who has different versions of himself, not in like 389 00:31:03,839 --> 00:31:07,960 a two face Beacha two have been not a two face sort of way. 390 00:31:08,319 --> 00:31:14,359 But you know you mentioning a Batman reference before I did in a movie where 391 00:31:14,359 --> 00:31:18,160 two faces in. It just makes my heart, you know. So you 392 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:19,960 know what's so funny though, is I did not even think about that tools 393 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,400 literally exiting my mouth that I was about to say two face about a man 394 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,720 who played two face. But did you just watch the words leave and just 395 00:31:27,759 --> 00:31:30,359 go? I was like, I have to grab them before Ben does. 396 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:38,920 Um. But no, this is someone, This is someone who his identity 397 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:44,880 is is two dimensional in that there is just this version of him all the 398 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,920 time. Absolutely, oh he is, and yeah he's in He's in a 399 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,640 part all the time. He has formed this part as a defense. We 400 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:56,000 don't see anything about his past to know why. We just get kind of 401 00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:00,359 little clues from him that something happened to him somewhere that he formed. But 402 00:32:00,839 --> 00:32:05,440 he is on all the time, and it is a full on caricature of 403 00:32:05,519 --> 00:32:09,279 himself. It is a limited function role aka a part of his personality that 404 00:32:09,279 --> 00:32:14,960 he is sectioned off in a walled off and honed to fill things that have 405 00:32:15,079 --> 00:32:19,119 been lost and taken from him. Yeah, this is one of those movies 406 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,200 where we say this a lot, but where we get no backstory, almost 407 00:32:22,839 --> 00:32:27,720 none, in that we are meeting this person, this character right when the 408 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,519 movie starts. We don't know really anything about his childhood. We don't even 409 00:32:30,519 --> 00:32:34,359 know why he got divorced, other than I assume it's because he's in the 410 00:32:34,599 --> 00:32:38,240 back. He's a dirt bag and he's gaslighting and cheating and he deserved it. 411 00:32:38,759 --> 00:32:43,240 Well, one thing I will say is he's clearly someone who's a quote 412 00:32:43,319 --> 00:32:49,880 unquote workaholic. Like he's always working, and he's always also wearing work clothes. 413 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,920 I notice, like even when he is playing top golf and stuff like 414 00:32:53,039 --> 00:32:57,519 that, or like at the batting of the golf range, he's always wearing 415 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,799 some version of his uniform. And I think the most dressed on we ever 416 00:33:00,839 --> 00:33:06,279 see him is he's wearing like a polo shirt with his son when they're getting 417 00:33:06,319 --> 00:33:07,920 dinner. But other than that, he is someone that's well you can tell 418 00:33:08,039 --> 00:33:14,200 right away that he gets his confidence and he says this too by being, 419 00:33:14,599 --> 00:33:17,359 like you said, been this part. And so he's someone that doesn't have 420 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:22,079 any work life balance. He's always working or he's being the version of him 421 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:28,720 that works, and it's not great to that point. One of my favorite 422 00:33:28,799 --> 00:33:34,960 little moments is so there's a plot point where he gets kidnapped and these actors 423 00:33:35,359 --> 00:33:39,640 are saying something. They're saying, you know, they're throwing these nicotine patches 424 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:44,519 on him and making claims about how dangerous smoking is, and even in that 425 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:46,799 moment where he is in danger, he goes, there's no data that supports 426 00:33:46,839 --> 00:33:52,799 your claim. So he's still on even during the moment when we should be 427 00:33:52,920 --> 00:34:00,400 the most like present and forgetting our work job, literally anything except the parts 428 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:07,799 of us that can survive, right. And I think that that is a 429 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:14,440 very important point that reinforces this idea that this man is very stuck in this 430 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:20,559 manufactured identity he's created for himself. And why he has done that or how 431 00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:24,559 he has done that is a mystery in this film, but we see that 432 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:34,800 he is constantly seeking reinforcement for being in it and surrounding himself with his little 433 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:42,039 club of folks comebacks. Yes. Well, that's a great point though, 434 00:34:42,079 --> 00:34:45,800 Ben that even when he's we see his version of downtime, it's with other 435 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:50,920 people who do the exact same thing that he does, so basically work meetings. 436 00:34:51,079 --> 00:34:55,400 Even when he is with his I guess friends, they're not friends, 437 00:34:55,599 --> 00:35:00,199 I mean friends, but that's the closest we see of friends in his life. 438 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:05,440 And they are people he doesn't even call friends. They're mostly just colleagues 439 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,320 that he blows off steam with, I would say, or just riffs with. 440 00:35:09,199 --> 00:35:12,360 Well, and I feel like and I feel like a part of the 441 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,360 reason why we see Joey asking him questions is because Joey is trying to get 442 00:35:15,519 --> 00:35:20,239 another version of his dad. He's trying to ask him questions and then he 443 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,719 just decides. It seems like he just decides that the only way he can 444 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:29,079 get his dad's attention is by asking him about his work, because that's all 445 00:35:29,119 --> 00:35:31,719 there is. Because that's all there is. But that when he's asking him 446 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:36,159 questions about other things, you can tell that. I mean, Joey is 447 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:40,239 literally like his whole body is leaning towards his dad when he's talking to him 448 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:45,400 about this. All of his body language is like I want to hear about 449 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,599 this. I want you to think that I'm interesting. I want you to 450 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:52,039 think that I know that I know how to ask questions. I want to 451 00:35:52,119 --> 00:35:55,320 think something. I want you to think something differently of me. And one 452 00:35:55,360 --> 00:36:00,119 of the first things I wrote was, Joey is wary as fuck. That's 453 00:36:00,159 --> 00:36:06,920 what I wrote when we saw his sad little face at his desk. Yeah. 454 00:36:07,079 --> 00:36:10,440 I think it's a really great example of if your work is your life, 455 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,760 you know, your kids so desperately want to be a part of your 456 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:19,719 life, Like when we talked about the this humanizing part, and kids pick 457 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,519 up stuff quick they pick up really quickly, like how to fit in and 458 00:36:22,639 --> 00:36:27,760 how to assimilate and how to get their needs met. And going back to 459 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,599 the work life balance. Even when he has his kid with him, they're 460 00:36:30,639 --> 00:36:35,360 always doing work stuff. He's taking him to LA, He's taking him to 461 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:40,360 see the Marlboro Man. You know, he's never cancer and he's yes, 462 00:36:40,639 --> 00:36:45,880 he's never just meeting Joey on Joey's terms, like let's go to the park, 463 00:36:46,039 --> 00:36:50,679 Let's go to a basket like a baseball game. Let's even when they're 464 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:52,679 in LA, he takes him to the boardwalk and they eat hot dogs. 465 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:58,320 But even still then they're talking about what his dad does. They're talking about 466 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,519 how to have good arguments and how can turn an argument about ice creamage an 467 00:37:00,599 --> 00:37:06,880 argument about liberty and freedom and if you hate freedom, And so it is 468 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:14,400 a shame because I don't think Nick realizes that he is not that the price 469 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:20,360 of only being in this part of your life is that you are forcing other 470 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:22,960 people to be a part of that life too, including your kid, and 471 00:37:22,079 --> 00:37:27,800 you are neglecting their needs. And you are forcing your kid to meet you 472 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:32,199 on your terms, not you meeting them on their terms, which is selfish. 473 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:37,159 It is just it's self centered, is more what it is? Yes, 474 00:37:37,639 --> 00:37:42,840 I think what is important to distinguish those The therapist brain in me is 475 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,639 always going, where's the why? Yeah? I don't think how about this? 476 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:46,760 I don't give a fuck about where the fucking why is what? This 477 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:53,119 book? An asshole, a therapist of us. And I see Hannah's having 478 00:37:53,159 --> 00:38:02,440 herself a day by myself thinking about this movie character. Go ahead, Ben, 479 00:38:02,639 --> 00:38:09,280 sorry, it's it's okay. Hannah as the representative blundish white male here, 480 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,480 I understand. I will take the blunt of your rage. It is 481 00:38:13,519 --> 00:38:17,000 well earned and deserved. Maybe not by me, but by this asshole who 482 00:38:17,039 --> 00:38:21,679 looks a little bit like me up, you know, more handsome and with 483 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:28,360 a more square jaw, you know. But anyway, I think the why 484 00:38:28,519 --> 00:38:32,440 part that gets triggered for me when I'm looking at something objectively or you know, 485 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:37,559 when I'm in my therapist chair is that people that are so stuck in 486 00:38:37,639 --> 00:38:44,320 a role that they don't have a well rounded life usually only do that because 487 00:38:44,599 --> 00:38:52,639 whatever core self they have that they are protecting has felt so vulnerable and hurt 488 00:38:52,199 --> 00:38:57,920 that this part of them evolved to protect that from ever getting hurt again. 489 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:05,079 Yeah, whatever he developed this four never got resolved, and he is pervasively 490 00:39:05,159 --> 00:39:08,119 stuck in it, to the point that he is so convinced that the only 491 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:15,679 way to stay safe and to keep my ego intact is to defend others away 492 00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:20,760 from it and maintain a dominant position at all times, at the expense of 493 00:39:21,559 --> 00:39:24,280 my morality and everything else. Yeah, I was going to say, at 494 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:31,039 the expense of literally everything. Well, because people like him who come off 495 00:39:31,159 --> 00:39:36,119 this way, the irony of it all is that he is wildly insecure. 496 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,320 When you dig down into the middle, this is what you're saying, Ben, 497 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:44,280 Like this is someone who's in a protective mode all the time. Like 498 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:50,719 this confidence and leaning into the one thing about himself that he knows is worthwhile 499 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:58,800 and that he feels really strong about is a way to not be not be 500 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:04,199 hurt, you know, not be undermined. And that's why, you know, 501 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,119 we don't know what happened with his marriage, but I will say, 502 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:13,519 as a family therapist and child therapist, the stepparent, unless it's like a 503 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,639 safety situation, you know, probably shouldn't step in the way that Brad stepped 504 00:40:16,679 --> 00:40:21,320 in in the beginning. The stepdad, like, don't come in and try 505 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:25,960 to like undermine the parenting of the bioparents unless that's necessary. But I will 506 00:40:27,039 --> 00:40:30,480 say Brad and not living in the home that he pays for, as he 507 00:40:30,559 --> 00:40:35,920 makes mention, you know, that is that's very that must be just firing 508 00:40:36,119 --> 00:40:42,280 the insecure parts of him to the moon. And so when he does try 509 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:46,719 to like pull Brad away and you know, intimidate Brad and all those things 510 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:52,360 like that is him using his strength, his mouth and his confidence in that 511 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:58,519 way to make him feel more secure about a situation which he has been kicked 512 00:40:58,559 --> 00:41:04,159 out. Like his family life, his personal life is very it's very insecure, 513 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:09,360 like he doesn't have loved ones besides his son and maybe his ex. 514 00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:15,119 You know, I'm sure she still feels some warmth towards him as just having 515 00:41:15,159 --> 00:41:20,880 a kid together, but not really. And so I mean it's the cliche 516 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,480 of like people that act like him are higher like covering up a lot of 517 00:41:24,039 --> 00:41:27,719 you know, a lot of lack of confidence. And that's very true. 518 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:32,039 And you see the facade break a bit when he is sick, you know, 519 00:41:32,119 --> 00:41:37,320 when he does get kidnapped and nicotine patched almost to death, and when 520 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:42,840 he's in the hospital, you can kind of see an opportunity from more and 521 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,840 Ben, you could probably more on this for maybe like those selves, to 522 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:51,599 start to shift around. And unfortunately, because he has crafted a life when 523 00:41:51,639 --> 00:41:55,559 every where everyone only sees him in this very specific way, they immediately approach 524 00:41:55,719 --> 00:42:00,559 him like are you back on? Like his son and his co workers, 525 00:42:00,679 --> 00:42:05,599 and even like his sort of friends, those other people the mod squad, 526 00:42:06,039 --> 00:42:09,880 they all only know how to interact with him in this very specific way about 527 00:42:10,079 --> 00:42:15,519 him being this very specific person, and so he falls right back into that 528 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:21,239 role because there isn't really an opportunity to be more vulnerable, to be different. 529 00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:25,079 Oh, he doesn't want to be vulnerable. But yeah, right, 530 00:42:27,199 --> 00:42:30,559 it's not just that he's looking for an opportunity to get back in here and 531 00:42:30,599 --> 00:42:35,840 said he can't resist it because he feels so profoundly unsafe that the first opportunity 532 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,159 he gets to reassert himself he does so. And you see him do that 533 00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:46,239 in every single chance. And which makes this a beautiful satire is that he 534 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:51,599 has no character growth, there is no arc, there is no development. 535 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,719 He every chance he gets to have a redemption arc, he misses it on 536 00:42:55,920 --> 00:43:01,199 purpose, like almost, or that he just not. But you see with 537 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:06,199 Brad like some of the details that stuck out to me, and get the 538 00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:10,079 details, the details, and I'll get Andy to talk about comedy writing at 539 00:43:10,119 --> 00:43:15,199 some point here, maybe against his will. But the is what he probably 540 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,599 hasn't told you is that we were both in the same comedy group, just 541 00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:22,840 at different times. But he felled us off. Mike, Oh did he? 542 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:28,400 Okay, But there's the grand reveal to that, right to the audience 543 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,239 or to to anybody who's listening to me, seeing me professionally and still tries 544 00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:36,159 to figure me out, which they can't. But sure, my identity is 545 00:43:36,159 --> 00:43:38,280 too complex. But the uh, oh my god, you're such a Gemini 546 00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:45,639 man. Anyway, I don't speak that well. I can tell you for 547 00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:50,639 I can tell you. I know you can't vouch, and I vouch for 548 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:55,480 her response. I'm used to that. But the uh, the thing that 549 00:43:55,519 --> 00:44:00,199 I think is is really valuable at recognizing is that the character I had, 550 00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:04,679 even alone, represents literally everything that could make him insecure. Bread is taller 551 00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:08,880 than him, Brad has better facial hair than him, Brad is a doctor. 552 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:14,239 Yes, he's wearing his little coat when we see him held the same 553 00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:16,599 hair color. I mean, part of me wonders if Brad was just him 554 00:44:16,639 --> 00:44:22,519 with a beard stuck on his face. Honestly, that up. Maybe I'm 555 00:44:22,559 --> 00:44:25,760 stilter with camera at work, but he's literally a foil of him. He's 556 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:30,000 like everything that he's educated, he's smart, he's living in his house, 557 00:44:30,079 --> 00:44:32,960 he's got all of these things. He's neutral. People like him, and 558 00:44:34,079 --> 00:44:38,000 then Nick just can't put it together and get out of his own way. 559 00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:45,239 To be a complete human, he has to be constantly in this self fulfilling 560 00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:49,559 mode of I am right and therefore I win, and the only way I 561 00:44:49,679 --> 00:44:52,360 am valid is if I'm winning, and if I am not winning, I'm 562 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:54,599 a loser, and the second he gets all this stuff taken away from him, 563 00:44:54,760 --> 00:45:00,199 we watch him crumble, much like we watched another character who is very 564 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:07,840 similar crumble when he lost his status, and that character is one mister Ronald 565 00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:14,800 Burgundy. I did not know that I was waiting for a Batman or Star 566 00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,599 Wars or Friends, but you're right, and if anyone is interested, it's 567 00:45:17,599 --> 00:45:21,320 one of the first episodes we ever did, and we talk a lot about 568 00:45:21,599 --> 00:45:25,320 toxic masculinity and the identity staff that goes along with this, also with David 569 00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:30,519 Kochner, that very fabulous actor, or some both of those. But yeah, 570 00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:36,440 I think I think something you brought up that that triggered an idea in 571 00:45:36,599 --> 00:45:42,079 me is something he says in the movie Nick is like moral flexibility. And 572 00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,760 I think an important point you made, Ben is he does not feel safe, 573 00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:51,880 like he is always working in order to keep himself safe, and so 574 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:58,639 if your priority is just to be safe, you will deprioritize things that other 575 00:45:58,679 --> 00:46:02,000 people wouldn't, and so it makes sense that he might like when watching this 576 00:46:02,079 --> 00:46:05,480 movie, I think a big question as someone watching would be how can this 577 00:46:05,519 --> 00:46:08,960 guy live with himself? And there is possibly a part of him. That's 578 00:46:09,039 --> 00:46:15,400 like, in order to stay safe, I have to neglect morals and be 579 00:46:15,519 --> 00:46:19,480 flexible in that morality. And as we've talked about many times before, our 580 00:46:19,519 --> 00:46:23,400 safety is king. If we will, we will devalue a lot in order 581 00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:29,440 to be safe, or in order to feel safe, we will devalue anything 582 00:46:29,559 --> 00:46:34,159 we need to, because once our parts take hold, parts evolve in order 583 00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:39,679 to limit the functions of unnecessary parts of our personality in reference to survival or 584 00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:44,280 surviving the moment. Right, So, the part of you that kisses your 585 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,679 children is not the same part of you that could put someone's head through a 586 00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:52,320 wall if they broke into your house who wasn't supposed to be there. That 587 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:54,400 animalistic part of you is not the same part of you that plays daddy, 588 00:46:54,599 --> 00:47:00,519 but it lives inside of you. And yesterday I realized that I have a 589 00:47:00,599 --> 00:47:04,159 part that doesn't care about anybody or anything, and that is the I have 590 00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:12,880 to pee part, the oldest bulldoze through people, kids down. It will 591 00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,840 be straight up, Master Skywalker, what do we do well? You don't 592 00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:22,559 let me think of that episode in Seinfeld when there's the fire and George Costanza 593 00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:28,599 flows through that birthday party of kids to get out of the part he pushes 594 00:47:28,639 --> 00:47:34,679 aside the grandmother you see her fall on the floor, and then the call 595 00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:37,760 back in the office where they do exactly the same thing and Michael Scott loses 596 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:42,440 it. But yeah, it's like those parts of us that when we feel 597 00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:46,679 safe, we would morally adhere to do, can have the ability to off 598 00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:52,159 the window, and we don't feel safe. And in this context, safety 599 00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,239 is like we said, the emotional safety, and he is like, yeah, 600 00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:59,360 he definitely little things he says here and there, the fact that it 601 00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:01,119 keeps bringing up that you don't have to go to school for what he does. 602 00:48:01,159 --> 00:48:06,679 It's inherent that speaks to someone who might be a little insecure or a 603 00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:14,960 lot insecure about their like innate intellectual intelligence, their school background, their academics. 604 00:48:15,039 --> 00:48:17,280 And I'm sure if he's hanging off a bunch of high falutin white guys, 605 00:48:17,679 --> 00:48:21,639 I'm sure there's a lot of guys who went to IVS and won't shut 606 00:48:21,679 --> 00:48:24,760 the fuck up about it, oh guarantee. And we're in those little secret 607 00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:30,920 societies that I want to get my eyeballs on. I was thinking one thing, 608 00:48:30,079 --> 00:48:37,440 or regarding the moral flexibility question, that I think there's an important moment 609 00:48:37,679 --> 00:48:45,159 in the movie, which is him acknowledging that smoking is harmful, right, 610 00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:52,960 Like he talks about death toll by smoking, and at some point even acknowledges, 611 00:48:52,039 --> 00:48:57,880 yet acknowledge is the dangers of tobacco to his close friends or non friends 612 00:48:58,039 --> 00:49:00,239 or whatever the case may be, in his group. And because you can 613 00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:05,119 imagine that, like all of this is a very you call it motivated reasoning, 614 00:49:05,199 --> 00:49:07,920 where he goes, well, I have to get the job done, 615 00:49:07,159 --> 00:49:10,440 and the best way to do that is to convince myself that I am actually 616 00:49:10,599 --> 00:49:14,559 right. So there's a version of the story where you go, this guy 617 00:49:14,679 --> 00:49:19,519 has just convinced himself that he's in the rights, and therefore he feels licensed 618 00:49:19,559 --> 00:49:23,639 to say this stuff all the time. But it's clear that he's saying things 619 00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:29,400 he doesn't believe, because he's acknowledged that's woking is harmful, and yet is 620 00:49:29,519 --> 00:49:35,400 choosing to engage in debate and conversation to make a point that he knows is 621 00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:38,719 not necessarily valid. And so that that's where some of that moral quantry comes 622 00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:44,559 in, where that is something that he is comfortable doing, but not something 623 00:49:44,679 --> 00:49:49,960 that others would be quite so comfortable doing. Right, I stick to it 624 00:49:50,079 --> 00:49:52,119 right. If I have a value, if I have a belief, I'm 625 00:49:52,159 --> 00:49:54,079 not going to betray that. I'm going to stick to it. And so 626 00:49:54,480 --> 00:50:00,840 he just is on the far end of the continuum, aware that duality is 627 00:50:00,159 --> 00:50:04,320 a okay yeah. And what's so interesting too, is in moments in the 628 00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:07,559 movie, I think specifically in one of the beginning scenes where his son's doing 629 00:50:07,639 --> 00:50:12,000 homework at his apartment and they're like, I have to write in a same 630 00:50:12,039 --> 00:50:15,159 way, America is the best country in the world, so stupid, and 631 00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:19,519 now watching this with like twenty twenty two eyes, it's like, are you 632 00:50:19,679 --> 00:50:22,239 kidding me? I don't know if folks teacher would ever put that essay question 633 00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:30,840 again, But you see that he does have almost like a nihilism that speaks 634 00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:36,679 to someone who is a little depressed and kind of knows what they're doing sucks 635 00:50:37,519 --> 00:50:42,960 and is really kind of how do I want to put it? He is 636 00:50:43,039 --> 00:50:45,960 like almost like put off by the world. You know, he sees the 637 00:50:45,039 --> 00:50:51,000 world very like well, nihilistically, and it makes me wonder how much this 638 00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:55,480 job does take a toll on him emotionally in a way that he also can't 639 00:50:55,519 --> 00:51:00,679 fully acknowledge because that would be too much oh, can the trauma therapist talk 640 00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:07,480 now? Because as resident trauma therapist. So someone's got a bingo card, 641 00:51:07,559 --> 00:51:10,960 right, because I just said trauma. The answer I will tell you is 642 00:51:12,039 --> 00:51:17,440 that, without question, whatever part of him he is dissociating from that is 643 00:51:17,559 --> 00:51:22,880 feeling all of this will come back and come out later, and it will 644 00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:29,519 be a hefty load to deal with. When that happens is anyone's guess. 645 00:51:30,079 --> 00:51:37,039 But when he has that reckoning, he will buckle and fall to the ground 646 00:51:37,639 --> 00:51:44,599 like Ebenezer Scrooge with the third Spirit. Very timely, the system of his 647 00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:50,239 parts will fail and the vulnerable self will shine through, and then the other 648 00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:53,960 parts that he has been putting, all of the shit he has been spewing, 649 00:51:55,079 --> 00:51:59,360 that he knows his shit, it's going to come out. It's like 650 00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:02,599 you can't eat shit without knowing it. Shit. You can put sprinkles on 651 00:52:02,679 --> 00:52:07,159 it, but at some point your internal systems are going to tell you, 652 00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:15,519 hey, buddy, we have sepsist. Tell me we got a problem here. 653 00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:19,119 Well, I think too, like when he has to go visit like 654 00:52:19,199 --> 00:52:23,079 the same Elliott character that whole time, like the actor does a good job 655 00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:28,800 of keeping you as the like as the audience member kind of on your toes 656 00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:31,639 a little bit about where his head's even at. He seems a lot more 657 00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:37,400 conflicted, and that seems like a point of the movie kind of what you 658 00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:42,719 mentioned before about like the possibility for redemption, where you see the potential of 659 00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:46,599 the facade slipping and you see these little glimpses in his eyes where he's like, 660 00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:50,920 Oh, I am a piece of shit, aren't it? Like I 661 00:52:51,079 --> 00:52:52,039 know that I am. I know that I am in this very like a 662 00:52:52,639 --> 00:52:57,280 sort of way, but I might actually like be one though, like like 663 00:52:57,480 --> 00:53:01,079 in my heart though, and so or at least like having a real sense 664 00:53:01,159 --> 00:53:07,880 of what I'm doing is really bad, Like his conscious is almost breaking through. 665 00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:10,519 But I think what makes this movie a satire instead of a classic like 666 00:53:10,639 --> 00:53:15,119 redemption art kind of story is that he like snapped right back like a like 667 00:53:15,159 --> 00:53:16,719 a rubber band. By the end of the movie, he's eating his own 668 00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:21,800 bullshit again. And but that's I think more realistic. Actually. I think 669 00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:30,119 someone like him would need several situations in which they have a mild internal reckoning 670 00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:34,400 before they actually decide to change something we talk about in therapy, and I've 671 00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:38,280 talked about this podcast about how in order to change in therapy, you need 672 00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:42,719 to be at a point of like ultimate discomfort, like I can't keep living 673 00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,960 like this. It's too uncomfortable that I am willing to change and do the 674 00:53:46,039 --> 00:53:51,719 work of changing because I can't deal with how things are now. And he's 675 00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:54,119 not there yet. In the movie, you seem kind of get he's starting 676 00:53:54,159 --> 00:53:58,440 to go on that road. So I think that there's a potential for like 677 00:53:58,559 --> 00:54:01,079 if we saw like the twenty years for this guy, I think we might 678 00:54:01,119 --> 00:54:07,280 get there eventually because I think also too, he's still fairly young, he's 679 00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:10,079 still good looking, you know, he's still kN schmooz and you know, 680 00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:15,599 probably get laid and all that stuff, and but there also is like an 681 00:54:15,599 --> 00:54:21,559 obvious emptiness in him, and I feel like eventually, I hope, I 682 00:54:21,599 --> 00:54:23,000 guess maybe this is optimist in me, think that there's going to be a 683 00:54:23,119 --> 00:54:28,480 point when he's like, my life sucks. And we do kind of see 684 00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:30,599 that when he loses his job though, So I guess like if he had 685 00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:34,599 maintained that, like lost his job and never found a way out of that 686 00:54:35,599 --> 00:54:40,239 back into that persona doing his job again, he might be someone that would 687 00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:45,719 finally go to therapy and get his shit together. Then this is definitely like 688 00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:50,719 a spoilers welcome podcast a thousand percent people, we're talking about everything. It 689 00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:53,039 didn't occur to me, having listened to a handful of him, It didn't 690 00:54:53,079 --> 00:54:54,960 occur to me until just now. I was like, oh wait a minute, 691 00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:58,880 No, Like I just watched the movie. That's that's something that happens 692 00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:04,519 towards the end we're going to we're telling people about it just right. And 693 00:55:06,039 --> 00:55:09,840 the movie did come out seventeen years ago, so you know, if you 694 00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:13,679 haven't seen it by now, it's you know, um that stuff, your 695 00:55:15,519 --> 00:55:22,559 right? Yeah, And so I don't know because and I think sliding into 696 00:55:22,639 --> 00:55:27,079 one of the tops we wanted to discuss is the idea of detachment um in 697 00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:30,239 that probably one of the clearest mental healthy things we see happen in this movie 698 00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:35,559 is the depression he falls into when he loses his job, in his position, 699 00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:39,239 and that does happen when, like we talked about Ben, when the 700 00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:45,159 only part of him that is activated, the only part of him that is 701 00:55:45,199 --> 00:55:51,360 worthwhile, is taken from you, you are fucked, correct, Once you 702 00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:54,480 lose your identity, once you lose whatever you've invested in. If that gets 703 00:55:54,559 --> 00:55:59,760 taken from you, you have to reinvent yourself or figure out how to reapply 704 00:56:00,559 --> 00:56:06,480 the known skills in a different context. And that takes grieving, and people 705 00:56:06,519 --> 00:56:10,639 don't want to do that because grieving hurts. Yeah, and he actively resists 706 00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:15,840 any opportunity to take any responsibility for his own feelings. Ever, Yeah, 707 00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:21,960 he just looks out and that he falls back into the role because in more 708 00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:27,719 in real life situations. And why I discourage people from getting totally involved in 709 00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:30,719 one area of their life is that, like I said, you're fucked if 710 00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:35,159 you lose that. And so you want to practice something called like I call 711 00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:39,239 healthy detachment, which is you never want one thing in your life to be 712 00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:43,840 the thing that gives you meaning and the thing that makes you who you are, 713 00:56:44,559 --> 00:56:46,920 because you don't have control over that thing maintaining in your life forever. 714 00:56:47,639 --> 00:56:54,320 You mean, like when you're so hell bent on being the lawyer that catches 715 00:56:54,440 --> 00:57:02,280 the mob bosses here we go, that you lose sight of the morality. 716 00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:12,920 Yeah, and you allow everything to be driven by chance and might literally become 717 00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:22,719 a batman villain and you let a quarter dictate your life. No, And 718 00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:28,760 so people will really buck against me as a therapist when I discourage attachment in 719 00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:31,559 that way, and because you're right, like in a sense, like people 720 00:57:31,679 --> 00:57:36,400 do want the relationship to be everything or their kid or being a parent, 721 00:57:36,719 --> 00:57:38,760 or their job. And I think on its face it doesn't seem that bad. 722 00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:43,119 But like you've seen in this if nothing else today away from this movie 723 00:57:43,239 --> 00:57:45,599 is that that's the that's what happens though. You need your identity to be 724 00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:52,159 multifaceted so that if something happens that's out of your control, you can still 725 00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:55,079 keep going on and you don't have to fall apart and just stare in your 726 00:57:55,079 --> 00:58:00,599 refrigerator like he does. Well. Often people who do jobs like his, 727 00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:07,159 any job that requires you to get into a flow state regularly. And this 728 00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:09,800 will be something I learned at Eastern Illinois, or both me and Andy achieved 729 00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:14,920 our basic psychological education, so high five there. What I learned in at 730 00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:19,320 Eastern that I always took with me is people who are engaged in high flow 731 00:58:19,519 --> 00:58:24,519 jobs often don't retire until they're ready to die, like ready to love and 732 00:58:24,519 --> 00:58:28,840 they die, yeah, or until they're made to retire. And you see 733 00:58:29,519 --> 00:58:37,000 police officers and surgeons and pilots and politicians, is why they don't retire until 734 00:58:37,039 --> 00:58:42,760 they literally cannot do the job anymore because they often have given so much to 735 00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:45,639 this job and get so addicted to being in that flow state where they feel 736 00:58:45,719 --> 00:58:52,119 like gods flow. It's that state where you are able to spontaneously access all 737 00:58:52,159 --> 00:58:57,159 of your resources in a dynamic way that allows you to solve problems with every 738 00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:01,679 bit of learning you've ever had without the danger state that usually produces it. 739 00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:07,880 And that's important because when you're in the same kind of flow state that survival 740 00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:09,719 activates, it's fucking scary and you don't want to do it again. But 741 00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:15,119 when you get to do it, when you're on stage or performing a surgery 742 00:59:15,199 --> 00:59:19,639 and you just find it and you are in the zone, it feels really 743 00:59:19,679 --> 00:59:23,719 good and it's addictive. And people that are in jobs like this often lose 744 00:59:24,679 --> 00:59:29,920 track of other parts of their life where they find meaning. And I work 745 00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:31,599 with police. This is something that I see a lot, and we have 746 00:59:31,719 --> 00:59:39,000 to do preretirement seminars with like it's important that you start investing in non police 747 00:59:39,039 --> 00:59:45,039 friends and non police activities because everything around you, much like Nick Naylor is 748 00:59:45,159 --> 00:59:51,960 investing everything is lobbyist friends. Your identity becomes so unfascinated that when that meaning 749 00:59:52,079 --> 00:59:57,320 you derived from that is taken from you. You lose the will to live 750 00:59:58,239 --> 01:00:05,719 for real, And it's essentially encountering logo therapy and reverse. It is learning 751 01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:09,199 that without purpose, people die and finding purpose is the meaning of life. 752 01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:15,719 That suffering is unavoidable, but purpose allows you to get through with a why, 753 01:00:15,039 --> 01:00:20,239 you can endure anyhow. But he loses his why, and we see 754 01:00:20,599 --> 01:00:23,719 glimpses of it when why is taken from him. When I cannot remember her 755 01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:28,360 name, but she will be Katie Holmes, because I don't know that Katie 756 01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:32,679 Holmes is capable of being other than Katie Holmes, but recognizing that when Katie 757 01:00:32,719 --> 01:00:37,320 Holmes takes from him and beats him at his own game, Yeah, and 758 01:00:37,519 --> 01:00:43,280 she legitimately whipped his ass like he thought he was able to be vulnerable with 759 01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:46,039 her, at least enough so he thought that their conversations were okay, he 760 01:00:46,119 --> 01:00:50,800 can actually process some of this stuff, unload that she's on his team and 761 01:00:51,079 --> 01:00:57,239 he's being drifted. And it wasn't until he was able to find leverage over 762 01:00:57,400 --> 01:01:02,440 her that we see him break out of this fired no job, no friends, 763 01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:06,800 not talking to anybody, not going anywhere, not leaving the house, 764 01:01:07,039 --> 01:01:12,199 moping state, where he has no meaning that he very may have well gotten 765 01:01:12,239 --> 01:01:19,480 suicidal from had that persisted. And it's very important that people recognize life must 766 01:01:19,599 --> 01:01:22,800 be multifaceted, meaning must come from many directions because the only constant in life 767 01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:28,639 has changed. I wonder if it's worth reframing a little bit of this one 768 01:01:28,679 --> 01:01:30,320 thing. I'm thinking as you're talking about this, I don't know the clinical 769 01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:35,239 literature, so maybe I'm off face here, But to frame that as detachment 770 01:01:36,159 --> 01:01:39,119 doesn't strike me as quite capturing it, right, Because for as much as 771 01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:45,519 our attachment to identities, roles and what have you and set us up for 772 01:01:45,079 --> 01:01:49,400 negative outcomes, yeah, they're also a vehicle for us to feel good. 773 01:01:49,519 --> 01:01:53,119 Right when we are attached right, we can celebrate our victories as though they 774 01:01:53,199 --> 01:01:57,960 are our own. We can feel good when we accomplish things in that domain. 775 01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:01,440 It seems like the critical thing is not leaning only on one identity. 776 01:02:02,039 --> 01:02:07,360 In there's some work and self esteem showing that people can have variance in the 777 01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:12,320 number of contingencies of self worth that they have, And so sometimes you go, 778 01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:15,039 well, I get my self esteem from a whole bunch of places. 779 01:02:15,079 --> 01:02:16,239 I get it from my family, I get it from my job, I 780 01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:22,679 get it from my after school activities. I get it from whatever. I've 781 01:02:22,679 --> 01:02:25,920 got a lot of contingencies of self worth. Others say I only feel good 782 01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:30,199 when I win the basketball game. I play basketball with my friends. The 783 01:02:30,239 --> 01:02:32,719 only time I feel good is when I win. There. Okay, well, 784 01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:36,760 that's as you're saying, dangerous because that sets you up for Hey, 785 01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:40,039 if you lose your basketball game, your self esteem plummets. You feel miserable. 786 01:02:40,639 --> 01:02:45,239 But if you had other contingencies of self worth, you get a buffer. 787 01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:47,719 You go, I can lose and I can feel the hits right. 788 01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:51,400 I'm attached to that. That's part of the thing that gets me going. 789 01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:55,880 But I have this array of other bases of self worth that I can turn 790 01:02:55,960 --> 01:03:01,800 to, other identities, other roles, other virtues, And so I don't 791 01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:06,239 know that I would quite. It doesn't seem like we're quite saying to detach 792 01:03:06,599 --> 01:03:10,719 from these domains, but just to diversify your portfolio of where you get the 793 01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:16,639 juice right and which you know. Ben's add took over here and will own 794 01:03:16,719 --> 01:03:20,599 that the medicine does not work at this point in time at night. But 795 01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:25,679 Anywaho, the no detachment comes in when you want to numb out and you 796 01:03:25,719 --> 01:03:30,000 don't want to feel any of that anymore, and then the detachment will set 797 01:03:30,079 --> 01:03:32,840 in. And that's I think where people are enabled to do things they would 798 01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:38,559 normally, where they start trading now feelings that give them what they feel like 799 01:03:38,639 --> 01:03:44,519 they can have or can't do, deserve that they can let themselves have versus 800 01:03:44,599 --> 01:03:47,239 what they really want. What goes it's consistent with their value, So they 801 01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:53,599 detach from their belief that they can pursue what they want and they accept what 802 01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:59,880 they feel they can have. It feels accessible to meet whatever need they can 803 01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:04,840 and have. Is why people who may really have a problem with alcohol or 804 01:04:05,519 --> 01:04:11,679 have a problem with casual sex, if they have been single long enough, 805 01:04:12,159 --> 01:04:15,679 may start trading where their moral stance on it is and go, well, 806 01:04:15,679 --> 01:04:18,119 I actually kind of have a need and I've been single for a long time 807 01:04:18,159 --> 01:04:20,880 and nobody's liked me, and this person doesn't want to date, but I 808 01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:26,079 mean they'll be with me for tonight. That's better than nobody with me at 809 01:04:26,119 --> 01:04:30,480 all. Well, and I can further clarify that clinically when I talk about 810 01:04:30,519 --> 01:04:32,239 detachment with clients, and I think I use this word but maybe I missed 811 01:04:32,239 --> 01:04:35,760 it. Is I say healthy detachment. I don't just say detachment period, 812 01:04:36,159 --> 01:04:40,920 I say healthy detachment. And I define that for clients as the sort of 813 01:04:41,039 --> 01:04:45,000 like antecdote or like counterpoint to enmeshment, because what he really is is he 814 01:04:45,159 --> 01:04:50,599 is enmeshed with work. And so diagram is one circle, yes, and 815 01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:56,239 so another term for it actually is non attachment too. But I just used 816 01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:59,960 attachment. And but yeah, you're right, like there's a difference between detached 817 01:05:00,039 --> 01:05:04,239 when I think how it's more used in mainstream language and then how I use 818 01:05:04,280 --> 01:05:08,039 it specifically as a clinician, which could be wrong. I don't know, 819 01:05:08,519 --> 01:05:12,920 but I like to make up my own concepts. But healthy detachment is what 820 01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:15,760 I'm talking about, which is where we can have separation from something without it 821 01:05:16,559 --> 01:05:23,599 fucking up our regulation, our emotional regulation. But is anything else I want 822 01:05:23,599 --> 01:05:27,280 to talk about about Nick? Before we shifted the treatment. Now I think 823 01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:32,239 we've nailed mister Naylor, just like we got the view of the relationship we 824 01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:35,480 should have gotten in the dark Night with two actors that actually had chemistry with 825 01:05:35,559 --> 01:05:42,360 each other. See there, it is all right. So we will take 826 01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:45,880 another break here to treatment. Who would like to go first? Dunt? 827 01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:49,280 Dunt talking about treatment? Oh, but maybe all volunteer because I'm going to 828 01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:56,000 have the most oddball approach to the question. Sure, that's someone who in 829 01:05:56,079 --> 01:05:59,559 my world we use treatment in quite a different way like we treat the treatment 830 01:05:59,639 --> 01:06:03,480 is the experiment that we're doing. But that's not quite what I'm going to 831 01:06:03,519 --> 01:06:06,239 say here, which is some of this got me thinking of I know, 832 01:06:06,320 --> 01:06:13,920 there's some work in the concept of authenticity, this idea of essentially what this 833 01:06:14,079 --> 01:06:17,559 guy, Nick Nayler's not being right, which is he's preventing he's presenting a 834 01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:25,920 very manicured and deliberate image of himself to the world to the point that is 835 01:06:26,079 --> 01:06:30,480 dishonest because he's saying things outwardly that we know he doesn't believe. And you 836 01:06:30,559 --> 01:06:35,119 know, within the domain of experimental and social psychology, there's a huge focus 837 01:06:35,239 --> 01:06:41,519 on positive psychology as it pertains to life satisfaction and well being, and there 838 01:06:41,559 --> 01:06:46,239 are data showing that authenticity is related to this. And so it sort of 839 01:06:46,599 --> 01:06:51,599 strikes me that some of the ills that this guy is facing that we've talked 840 01:06:51,639 --> 01:06:58,280 about could be stemming from the fact that he's not representing his authentic self to 841 01:06:58,360 --> 01:07:00,960 the world around him. The day to show that, for example, in 842 01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:03,519 relationships. When we feel like we're being guarded, when we're not revealing our 843 01:07:03,559 --> 01:07:09,440 true self to our partner, then relationship satisfaction isn't as high as it could 844 01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:15,719 be. And so I can't quite confidently take this kind of predictive correlational work 845 01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:19,719 and give a prescriptive like everyone ought to do this or this guy ought to 846 01:07:19,800 --> 01:07:25,960 do this. But I would encourage this fella to practice a little more authenticity, 847 01:07:26,519 --> 01:07:30,000 to reflect a little bit on who he actually is and let other people 848 01:07:30,239 --> 01:07:34,800 into that rather than being so guarded and deliberate in the way that he presents 849 01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:41,440 himself. Did I approach this treatment plation of the program honestly? Someone like 850 01:07:41,639 --> 01:07:44,559 him, though, I think where your kind of work would be really helpful, 851 01:07:44,599 --> 01:07:47,800 as I do think someone like him might need like actual evidence, like 852 01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:54,519 study based evidence to back up why us as clinicians would be encouraging him to 853 01:07:54,599 --> 01:07:58,119 do something that's going to make him want to barf on himself. I mean, 854 01:07:58,159 --> 01:08:01,199 first you'd have to figure out who often technique even is. But then 855 01:08:01,519 --> 01:08:06,159 yeah, Brittany M I love you, but I'm going to profoundly disagree with 856 01:08:06,239 --> 01:08:11,599 you here. We just watched an entire movie about a man who rejects evidence, 857 01:08:11,679 --> 01:08:15,840 and you said that he might need evidence too. Well, here's what 858 01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:17,680 I'm saying is he definitely try to spin it, and that'll be something as 859 01:08:17,720 --> 01:08:21,600 a therapist will have to address with him. Is like, is having a 860 01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:26,640 system for stopping his spin in your office? But I do think someone who 861 01:08:26,840 --> 01:08:32,279 is that guarded and that stuck sometimes and also no offense, a man like 862 01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:39,079 that needs like logic quote unquote, like evidence to prove why they should make 863 01:08:39,119 --> 01:08:41,600 a change like that, and not just like it might be better for your 864 01:08:41,640 --> 01:08:45,039 overall well being and mental health, not this man. Yeah, and alternatively, 865 01:08:45,119 --> 01:08:47,880 like if you look at what is the thing that really gets him going, 866 01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:50,840 it seems like he does want to have a good relationship with his kids, 867 01:08:51,039 --> 01:08:54,439 right, Yeah, it seems like there is part of that that is 868 01:08:54,520 --> 01:08:58,319 a value of his. And you could pitch it, right if I put 869 01:08:58,399 --> 01:09:00,960 my you know, how do you frame the message hat on? You could 870 01:09:00,000 --> 01:09:05,720 pitch this as sort of most in the interest of improving the relationship you have 871 01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:11,640 with your son, right, The way you foster a stronger relationship is to 872 01:09:12,199 --> 01:09:15,560 be true to yourself. I mean, you know, you can't tell your 873 01:09:15,640 --> 01:09:17,560 kid everything, but you could get a little closer maybe than this guy has 874 01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:21,680 gotten, or maybe in his case, a little bit less, a little 875 01:09:21,760 --> 01:09:26,920 further. Well, and maybe that expose is move in that direction, right, 876 01:09:27,000 --> 01:09:29,920 can't hide from it anymore? Right, there are secrets that were revealed, 877 01:09:30,439 --> 01:09:34,840 and maybe embracing that as a strategy for finally feeling a little more comfortable 878 01:09:34,880 --> 01:09:39,800 with yourself. That's very true. Well, Ben, would you like to 879 01:09:39,840 --> 01:09:45,880 go next? Sen since you know everything? I'm glad you finally openly acknowledge 880 01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:49,239 that. Can you tell my wife please? Because she's been with me for 881 01:09:49,359 --> 01:09:53,359 thirteen years and she hasn't learned yet. So I think maybe if we could 882 01:09:53,359 --> 01:09:59,680 get some validation on that point. No, never, never, I'll use 883 01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:02,279 the mighty edit hammer and we'll just delete the part where it sounds really sarcastic 884 01:10:02,359 --> 01:10:04,600 that you can have a little you can have to make a little you can 885 01:10:04,640 --> 01:10:08,279 make a little button out of it that you just, you know, wear 886 01:10:08,319 --> 01:10:11,960 on your neck roundhouse and you hit me saying that whenever your wife challenges you, 887 01:10:12,399 --> 01:10:15,359 I'm gonna put it in a build a bear and that way can press 888 01:10:15,399 --> 01:10:21,680 the heart of it. Knows everything, see validation. But any who not 889 01:10:21,800 --> 01:10:28,119 that they knew everything? I think I know working with this guy recognizing that 890 01:10:28,840 --> 01:10:31,960 if you get into the game with him, you will activate that part no 891 01:10:32,079 --> 01:10:36,359 matter what you are doing. And you have to get him to a spot 892 01:10:38,439 --> 01:10:41,399 where and he has to get himself with me be super clear about that. 893 01:10:41,520 --> 01:10:45,560 He has to be willing to let that armor down and put down his sword 894 01:10:45,720 --> 01:10:48,680 and be authentic like Andy is saying, like, you have to find somebody 895 01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:54,800 some way to access where the real himn is. And the only times I 896 01:10:54,880 --> 01:10:58,920 think we see that in this film we see a little glimpse of it is 897 01:10:58,960 --> 01:11:03,760 when he sees his because that breaks his demeanor every time, and he has 898 01:11:03,800 --> 01:11:06,079 to switch in and out of it, and you see that look of like, 899 01:11:06,279 --> 01:11:10,680 oh shit, what do I do with this? And Aaron Eckart's face 900 01:11:10,760 --> 01:11:13,800 was really good at that. His facial acting was really good at showing an 901 01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:20,000 affect change, which for non jargon languages, emotions are the biography and affect 902 01:11:20,199 --> 01:11:25,000 is the biology of our feelings. So it's the facial expressions, the body 903 01:11:25,079 --> 01:11:29,199 language, the tone of voice, those kinds of things as outward expressions that 904 01:11:29,239 --> 01:11:31,880 communicate to other humans what the feeling is in a way that can be perceived 905 01:11:32,640 --> 01:11:36,560 or subconsciously. Is the word I'm looking for there any who recognizing that for 906 01:11:36,800 --> 01:11:43,119 him, getting to that authentic part of him, that vulnerable side of him, 907 01:11:43,920 --> 01:11:47,520 is going to have to mean you take more of that kind of Fritz 908 01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:54,720 Pearl's approach or even the Carl Rogers approach, which neither of which I really 909 01:11:54,880 --> 01:11:59,640 love doing with clients, where when someone starts talking, you just don't give 910 01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:06,319 them anything other than and you sit with them and make them feel by not 911 01:12:08,399 --> 01:12:13,800 trying to do anything with their feeling but create space for it. And I 912 01:12:13,920 --> 01:12:20,800 think for him that would drive him bananas for a while, because people who 913 01:12:20,920 --> 01:12:28,640 have that like high drive, high anxiety, high enjoyment out of conflict when 914 01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:31,199 you aren't giving it to them, We'll try to elicit that kind of response 915 01:12:31,239 --> 01:12:35,039 from you. And I think for him, breaking out of the part that 916 01:12:35,199 --> 01:12:39,560 wants to play the game with you and wants to beat you and wants to 917 01:12:39,640 --> 01:12:43,399 win is going to be vital for any therapist to figure out if you're going 918 01:12:43,439 --> 01:12:45,119 to get anywhere. He has to figure that out in his end, but 919 01:12:45,239 --> 01:12:49,359 a therapist also has to recognize when they're going to do something to inevitably trigger 920 01:12:49,439 --> 01:12:54,119 that part and avoid that technique at all times. It is why Brittany I 921 01:12:54,479 --> 01:12:58,119 say I love you, but I disagree. Is that the minute you start 922 01:12:58,199 --> 01:13:00,439 taking out research, he's going to active the lobbyist part of him and he's 923 01:13:00,439 --> 01:13:04,399 going to challenge every fucking thing. And it's going to be like arguing with 924 01:13:04,560 --> 01:13:10,319 qann morons on the internet, where no matter what degree of evidence, they're 925 01:13:10,359 --> 01:13:12,560 just going to ask for more. And then they last, well, who 926 01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:15,119 wrote it, well, who funded it? Well? Peer reviewed? But 927 01:13:15,159 --> 01:13:18,359 they don't know what peer reviewed means. They haven't taken a research methods course 928 01:13:18,479 --> 01:13:24,720 and wouldn't know the difference between a peer reviewed article and something Some jackass on 929 01:13:24,760 --> 01:13:27,159 the internet wrote, oh wait, do we describe qn all? We already 930 01:13:27,159 --> 01:13:30,880 said, okay, we're good. Anyway, recognizing the importance of keeping him 931 01:13:30,880 --> 01:13:35,119 out of that part and keeping him in his authentic self is going to require 932 01:13:35,199 --> 01:13:39,640 doing the opposite of what he wants you to do and showing him that he 933 01:13:39,840 --> 01:13:44,920 cannot, in any way, shape or form draw you in to his game. 934 01:13:45,199 --> 01:13:47,920 You have to gray rock with him. Essentially. Yeah, where the 935 01:13:48,079 --> 01:13:56,399 therapist pulls a very calm, quiet, non engaging, non competitive is that 936 01:13:56,479 --> 01:14:00,159 the way you want to see it? Interesting? Like that kind of thing. 937 01:14:00,920 --> 01:14:03,319 I recognize that. And then when his body starts to react. You'd 938 01:14:03,359 --> 01:14:08,880 have to feel this out, but recognizing the more gestalt therapy like approach of 939 01:14:09,000 --> 01:14:11,159 looking at him and going, what's going on with your body right now? 940 01:14:11,800 --> 01:14:15,279 I wonder why you're doing that? What's that? What are you feeling? 941 01:14:15,640 --> 01:14:20,520 And watch him I think of him. I don't know if I've talked about 942 01:14:20,520 --> 01:14:23,880 this on the show before, but I talk about it with people I supervised 943 01:14:23,880 --> 01:14:27,760 because it had to profound impact on me of watching the Gloria videos, which 944 01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:32,880 I believe are on YouTube where yea three therapists, three classic white men therapists, 945 01:14:33,279 --> 01:14:39,960 but any who go through some of the foundational approaches to what we're used 946 01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:47,319 over the last forty years of RIBT versus. We see RIBT versus person centered 947 01:14:47,600 --> 01:14:55,600 versus Gestalt therapy in a showdown with the same client, and you see this 948 01:14:56,199 --> 01:14:59,560 person that's doing therapy with Gloria has a lot of parts of her that are 949 01:14:59,600 --> 01:15:02,000 a lot like Nick Nayler that want to fight, want to argue, want 950 01:15:02,039 --> 01:15:05,920 to contend and stay very defensive, very on guard, and keep the therapist 951 01:15:06,000 --> 01:15:12,880 off balance. And Pearls, Fritz Pearls, the creator of Gestalt therapy, 952 01:15:13,159 --> 01:15:15,920 draws her attention back to her body and doesn't engage with her stuff, and 953 01:15:15,560 --> 01:15:19,439 you see that start to really throw her off her game really fast. And 954 01:15:19,600 --> 01:15:27,399 then watching the ribt logical approach try to go after her, and she you 955 01:15:27,479 --> 01:15:30,239 know, as good and funny as Ellis's and be able to break her out 956 01:15:30,279 --> 01:15:34,199 of stuff. He doesn't get nearly as much work out of her as Carl 957 01:15:34,319 --> 01:15:41,479 Rogers does by not engaging with her ongoing narrative that she's spinning to keep her 958 01:15:41,560 --> 01:15:45,319 walls up. No matter what the other therapist order, she keeps spinning another 959 01:15:45,439 --> 01:15:48,319 thing to put up another defense, another wall, just like Nick Naylor does. 960 01:15:48,359 --> 01:15:54,279 And watching Rogers sit and stare at her and go and her get profoundly 961 01:15:54,359 --> 01:15:57,279 uncomfortable and start yelling at him and trying to draw him in and like, 962 01:15:57,439 --> 01:15:59,600 why aren't you saying you think? Why are you doing? Aren't you supposed 963 01:15:59,600 --> 01:16:00,479 to be helping, supposed to be about me? And he just goes, 964 01:16:02,439 --> 01:16:06,880 I see that upsets you, and then unbeknownst to her, because it does 965 01:16:08,000 --> 01:16:14,000 upset me, it makes me, And then he's she's forced to fill the 966 01:16:14,119 --> 01:16:17,439 space with her own, real, authentic feelings and she doesn't even realize she's 967 01:16:17,520 --> 01:16:21,239 doing it. But all he had to do to create that was not engage. 968 01:16:21,439 --> 01:16:25,199 And I think it's really important to recognize with a character like Nick, 969 01:16:25,439 --> 01:16:28,399 if you try to contend with him, if you try to be the expert, 970 01:16:28,800 --> 01:16:31,399 you can never prove his null hypothesis. You cannot win. And if 971 01:16:31,399 --> 01:16:34,640 you try to, he's already won. And he tells you that. So 972 01:16:34,880 --> 01:16:40,479 for me, it would be more of that with drawn quiet. I'm gonna 973 01:16:40,640 --> 01:16:43,399 help you and meet you where you're at, and when you're ready to engage, 974 01:16:43,680 --> 01:16:45,479 we can do the work and do the teaching and do the things I 975 01:16:45,560 --> 01:16:47,920 might do with clients you need it. But not him. He would eat 976 01:16:47,960 --> 01:16:51,079 that alive and just go home and research it and tear you apart on it 977 01:16:51,119 --> 01:16:54,880 and make you frustrated it by going, well, you know who says that, 978 01:16:55,319 --> 01:17:00,600 doctor Latreuelle. He says that if you try to convince people, I'm 979 01:17:00,600 --> 01:17:03,840 just be rejecting. And he went to Ohio state. Where did you go 980 01:17:03,920 --> 01:17:12,399 to? Don't bring me into this right state? Wrong college? All right? 981 01:17:12,560 --> 01:17:15,840 Weel, Hannah, would you like to go? Yeah? Sure? 982 01:17:16,199 --> 01:17:21,840 So I really thought about the family a lot in this film, and I 983 01:17:21,960 --> 01:17:26,840 have a couple of different ideas, but I think the main thing to know 984 01:17:27,199 --> 01:17:32,039 is before I could ever have Nick Naylor in session in any capacity, he 985 01:17:32,079 --> 01:17:36,199 would have to do individual work first. So that's that's just like a caveat 986 01:17:36,279 --> 01:17:41,720 to what I'm about to talk about. So I've been thinking about blended families 987 01:17:42,560 --> 01:17:46,680 and how do we if Nick Naylor comes around to it at some point, 988 01:17:47,720 --> 01:17:53,880 how do we help foster a better situation for Joey For a couple of different 989 01:17:53,960 --> 01:18:00,880 reasons. One, Joey has gotten the validation from his father already Eddie that 990 01:18:00,159 --> 01:18:04,239 the way that he's acting is good in some way, or that he is 991 01:18:04,279 --> 01:18:09,119 seen. And the behavior that I'm talking about is the gas lighting that he 992 01:18:09,199 --> 01:18:15,079 does with his mother. I think he's the reason why his dad comes around 993 01:18:15,119 --> 01:18:19,880 to deciding to turn on the reporter. He becomes the little genius of his 994 01:18:20,000 --> 01:18:26,600 own in terms of the awful behavior that his father has and so and that 995 01:18:26,720 --> 01:18:30,079 at some point when Nick Naylor has to diversify his portfolio, they will have 996 01:18:30,159 --> 01:18:35,760 to contend with his son have learned this bad behavior from him in the past, 997 01:18:35,880 --> 01:18:39,720 and how are they going to manage that? And also how are they 998 01:18:39,720 --> 01:18:45,560 going to manage that without the mother being activated by probably behavior that was present 999 01:18:45,680 --> 01:18:50,079 in their marriage as well. And so a part of what I was thinking 1000 01:18:50,119 --> 01:18:54,880 about, I don't know that we would include Brad or not. Brad's kind 1001 01:18:54,920 --> 01:18:59,279 of I feel like Brad might be because also he's not a permanent person yet, 1002 01:18:59,399 --> 01:19:02,760 Like he's not she's not married to him. Yeah, so you wouldn't 1003 01:19:02,800 --> 01:19:08,199 necessarily bring Brad into the picture, but it just makes me think about how 1004 01:19:08,600 --> 01:19:12,079 important it would be. So let's say I get this. I have the 1005 01:19:12,239 --> 01:19:15,439 family, I have the mom and the dad, and I have Joey, 1006 01:19:15,840 --> 01:19:18,920 and I have all of them in my office, and we're dealing with his 1007 01:19:19,119 --> 01:19:25,840 behavior towards a teacher who pulled something kind of what Ben was talking about, 1008 01:19:25,880 --> 01:19:30,359 how he would how he would work with Nick of not like, Joey's not 1009 01:19:30,439 --> 01:19:33,039 getting the response that he needs or that he wants in order to move forward 1010 01:19:33,079 --> 01:19:36,920 with something. And so let's say he gets really mad and starts cursing out 1011 01:19:36,960 --> 01:19:41,039 the teacher. Let's just say that's what happens. And so they come into 1012 01:19:41,159 --> 01:19:45,279 my office because this is like the sixth or seventh time this has happened. 1013 01:19:45,560 --> 01:19:49,520 This has happened enough times. So they come into my office, and a 1014 01:19:49,680 --> 01:19:55,680 part of what I would really want to help them do is a help Nick 1015 01:19:55,800 --> 01:20:00,199 take responsibility for his behavior in the first place. And a part of the 1016 01:20:00,239 --> 01:20:03,479 way that I would do that is we would just talk about different ways, 1017 01:20:04,479 --> 01:20:09,159 just talk about kind of asking Joey a little bit like what do you feel 1018 01:20:09,279 --> 01:20:15,079 like you did to contribute to this? And he might say nothing. He 1019 01:20:15,199 --> 01:20:18,680 might because he's a kid, and also that's pretty natural and normal, or 1020 01:20:18,760 --> 01:20:23,640 he would say I don't know. Then I would have I would be able 1021 01:20:23,720 --> 01:20:27,199 to kind of pull Mom and Dad in and say, well, do one 1022 01:20:27,279 --> 01:20:30,239 of you want to give us a better sense of what we think is contributing 1023 01:20:30,319 --> 01:20:33,880 to this, And a part of the work I would have to do is 1024 01:20:34,000 --> 01:20:38,760 really watch mom and dad to see whether or not that they would be activated. 1025 01:20:39,800 --> 01:20:42,920 Mom might be activated based on talking about this. She might want to 1026 01:20:42,960 --> 01:20:45,560 blame Dad for the behavior that he's shown in the past, which would make 1027 01:20:45,600 --> 01:20:49,239 a lot of sense, like those are all natural experiences that a parent would 1028 01:20:49,279 --> 01:20:55,119 have when you're trying to comparent with someone. And so a part of what 1029 01:20:55,239 --> 01:21:00,359 I would then try to help do is help them give examples and also just 1030 01:21:00,439 --> 01:21:03,920 take responsibility for some of the behavior that they've both engaged with in order to 1031 01:21:04,079 --> 01:21:11,800 help show Joey that it's okay to apologize. It's okay to take responsibility for 1032 01:21:11,920 --> 01:21:15,359 behavior that you have engaged in. And then what we're also doing is help 1033 01:21:15,439 --> 01:21:19,239 them look at each other more as a family instead of the mom and the 1034 01:21:19,359 --> 01:21:24,319 dad verses each other. If the mom and the dad are verses each other, 1035 01:21:24,479 --> 01:21:28,479 co parenting becomes much more complicated and has a more of a tendency to 1036 01:21:28,520 --> 01:21:31,199 put the kid in the middle. And so that's definitely that's definitely something that 1037 01:21:31,239 --> 01:21:35,479 we'd want to avoid in this setting, especially because that's a part of what 1038 01:21:35,800 --> 01:21:40,760 Nick Naylor's deal is is that he you know, he always wins. And 1039 01:21:40,960 --> 01:21:44,159 so that's kind of what I was thinking about and what I would want to 1040 01:21:44,199 --> 01:21:47,239 do with them as a family, because this family would be would have continued 1041 01:21:47,279 --> 01:21:51,840 to have problems in struggles, and they would come out from Joey because Joey 1042 01:21:53,119 --> 01:21:55,720 is just trying to get his needs met because he's a kid, And that 1043 01:21:55,880 --> 01:21:58,079 that would be a part of what I would want to do in order to 1044 01:21:58,159 --> 01:22:02,880 help this family unit continue to have dynamics that are manageable and healthy and livable 1045 01:22:03,159 --> 01:22:15,479 and sustainable. It's great, Hannah, you stole my answer Hannah's answers, 1046 01:22:15,680 --> 01:22:19,079 So I would think the only thing I would add is, yeah, I 1047 01:22:19,159 --> 01:22:21,840 was gonna speak on what you speak now, which is like the behavior's picking 1048 01:22:21,920 --> 01:22:26,399 up from his dad's definitely gonna get him in trouble at school, and or 1049 01:22:27,159 --> 01:22:31,319 we see already that he's undercutting his mother's parenting. And what I would have 1050 01:22:31,600 --> 01:22:35,520 to you have to build up the parents to realize that they have to keep 1051 01:22:35,560 --> 01:22:40,800 limits setting even if your kid kind of gets the best of you argumentatively, 1052 01:22:41,279 --> 01:22:45,079 you're still allowed to hold and set limits. And like the way that mom 1053 01:22:45,239 --> 01:22:49,159 gets played by him in that one scene where he like reads mom down and 1054 01:22:49,199 --> 01:22:53,119 then she lets him get what he wants, Like just you know, educating 1055 01:22:53,159 --> 01:22:58,760 parents, and that's rewarding the behavior that you're wanting to minimize or discourage. 1056 01:22:58,960 --> 01:23:02,800 And then also I think just a general psycho education I would give parents about 1057 01:23:02,840 --> 01:23:10,000 what i'd call kid business versus adult business, and that unfortunately, this kid 1058 01:23:10,079 --> 01:23:14,159 has been involved in a lot of adult business, which can happen when you're 1059 01:23:14,520 --> 01:23:17,960 when you're an only child and when you have parents who are just kind of 1060 01:23:18,119 --> 01:23:23,119 taking you around with them, you can accidentally or incidentally get a lot of 1061 01:23:23,159 --> 01:23:27,960 adult business. And so would have to really re establish those boundaries and if 1062 01:23:28,000 --> 01:23:30,880 I was working with Joey specifically, it's like a child therapist around this, 1063 01:23:31,000 --> 01:23:33,720 I think something you have to acknowledge, but you kind of stuff with the 1064 01:23:33,760 --> 01:23:36,960 apologizing part from the parents. And this is what I would do with kids 1065 01:23:38,000 --> 01:23:40,199 too, is yeah, you're right, it's not fair, Like when you're 1066 01:23:40,239 --> 01:23:43,159 a kid, like there are some things you're not supposed to know, and 1067 01:23:43,720 --> 01:23:45,640 if your parents are going to be good parents to you, part of their 1068 01:23:45,760 --> 01:23:50,079 job is to only is to not give you any adult business. You don't 1069 01:23:50,079 --> 01:23:54,359 need to know, Like your job is to be safe, feel safe and 1070 01:23:54,439 --> 01:23:57,800 be happy and to play and figure out who you are and go to school. 1071 01:23:58,319 --> 01:24:01,000 And knowing too much adult business it can feel cool or good at the 1072 01:24:01,079 --> 01:24:04,880 time because it can feel like you're part of the adult club, but it's 1073 01:24:04,920 --> 01:24:10,319 getting in the way of you being able to be a kid in the way 1074 01:24:10,399 --> 01:24:13,840 that you need to be a kid to feel good. And when I work 1075 01:24:13,880 --> 01:24:16,880 with kids who have gone through life in such a way that they just get 1076 01:24:16,920 --> 01:24:20,039 exposed to a lot of adult business, this is a really hard part I 1077 01:24:20,119 --> 01:24:24,720 have to practice. I have to like encourage a lot of radical acceptance about 1078 01:24:25,039 --> 01:24:28,159 being a kid. Sometimes I'll even just acknowledge for kids. Being a kid 1079 01:24:28,239 --> 01:24:32,199 can suck because you are a miner. I usually say, when you're till 1080 01:24:32,239 --> 01:24:36,840 you're not a minor anymore, until you're totally independent. The adults in your 1081 01:24:36,880 --> 01:24:40,159 life, the parents in your life, are allowed to tell you what to 1082 01:24:40,239 --> 01:24:43,560 do. They're allowed to control what you know to a certain extent, and 1083 01:24:44,079 --> 01:24:46,359 that does feel shitty. Sometimes I wouldn't say shitty, but maybe I would 1084 01:24:46,520 --> 01:24:50,479 this kid. It might get him to buy in with me. Yeah, 1085 01:24:50,520 --> 01:24:55,800 I might have. Yeah, But sometimes with those kids, you just have 1086 01:24:55,880 --> 01:24:57,960 to acknowledge, like, yeah, you're right, Like you've known a lot 1087 01:24:58,000 --> 01:25:02,199 of stuff that other kids probably wouldn't know or shouldn't know, and it's gonna 1088 01:25:02,239 --> 01:25:08,399 this adjustment's gonna feel bad, it's gonna suck, and it's happening against your 1089 01:25:08,439 --> 01:25:11,199 will. So part of what I think you have to do sometimes to get 1090 01:25:11,279 --> 01:25:14,680 kids to buy in is just fully acknowledge the things that they're pissed about and 1091 01:25:14,760 --> 01:25:17,039 validate it and not try to argue against it, like this is what's so 1092 01:25:17,159 --> 01:25:19,000 great about being a kid. You'd be like, yeah, a lot of 1093 01:25:19,039 --> 01:25:23,319 parts of being kids sucks, and there's a lot of part those are great. 1094 01:25:23,399 --> 01:25:26,199 There's a lot of parts of being an adult that sucks. No matter 1095 01:25:26,319 --> 01:25:28,720 what role you're in, parts are gonna suck and parts are gonna rock. 1096 01:25:28,880 --> 01:25:31,439 And like that's the long and the short of it. And he would be 1097 01:25:31,560 --> 01:25:34,119 a kid that I think you'd have to take. I feel like i'd probably 1098 01:25:34,199 --> 01:25:39,079 take a more yeah, a more like irreverent approach with because I think he'd 1099 01:25:39,119 --> 01:25:43,640 respect that more because you're trying to because there is a way that as a 1100 01:25:43,720 --> 01:25:47,199 child therapist you can both be boundary boundary and appropriately boundary with a kid while 1101 01:25:47,279 --> 01:25:50,920 also not talking down to them. He'd be a kid that if I talk 1102 01:25:50,960 --> 01:25:53,920 down to him, he would tell me to go fuck myself, and he'd 1103 01:25:53,960 --> 01:25:58,000 be right to do it, he would. Yeah, so might Therapists don't 1104 01:25:58,000 --> 01:26:00,600 have to be a parent, and we don't have to play the role of 1105 01:26:00,680 --> 01:26:04,399 parent. That's not our job. Our job isn't to maintain appropriate boundaries. 1106 01:26:04,439 --> 01:26:11,039 It's to be accessible and to facilitate, right. It's my parents sometimes can 1107 01:26:11,079 --> 01:26:14,039 get upside of like what you can swear with my kid. It's my job 1108 01:26:14,119 --> 01:26:16,439 to get to the emotional content and emotional root of the issue. Yeah, 1109 01:26:16,600 --> 01:26:18,880 and to also take that happening for the kid in a way that's safe for 1110 01:26:18,920 --> 01:26:21,560 them. Yeah, because we're not policing kids either. Like, if he's 1111 01:26:21,600 --> 01:26:24,520 in my office and he's swearing, I'm not going to be like, you 1112 01:26:24,600 --> 01:26:27,920 can't say the A word, like unless he's saying it to me, and 1113 01:26:27,960 --> 01:26:30,039 then I would say, you got to respect me. You can swear, 1114 01:26:30,119 --> 01:26:32,600 but but I'm not you can't swear at me. So that's the approach I 1115 01:26:32,720 --> 01:26:35,960 take with him is I'd probably treat him sort of like a little adult in 1116 01:26:36,039 --> 01:26:40,039 the way that I would talk to him, but as a therapist, as 1117 01:26:40,079 --> 01:26:45,319 a child therapist, I would always be mindful of boundaries so that I'm not 1118 01:26:45,800 --> 01:26:49,279 feeding into the dynamic that I'm trying to instill in his parents. Yeah. 1119 01:26:49,439 --> 01:26:53,840 Still, that's that. So we will take a final break here and then 1120 01:26:53,880 --> 01:26:57,560 come back for final thoughts. All right, so I can go first. 1121 01:26:57,760 --> 01:27:00,239 As like I said, this is my first time seeing this movie. I 1122 01:27:00,399 --> 01:27:02,680 liked it. I didn't realize it was the same director as Juno and the 1123 01:27:02,760 --> 01:27:08,119 New Ghostbusters movie, but yeah, I really liked it. It was zingier 1124 01:27:08,199 --> 01:27:11,600 than I thought it would be. I think I was in college when I 1125 01:27:11,640 --> 01:27:14,319 first came out, and I think because of the subject matter, I assumed 1126 01:27:14,359 --> 01:27:18,520 it was some boring political like adult movie in a way that, even though 1127 01:27:18,560 --> 01:27:24,640 I was nineteen, sounded very boring. So it was a lot quippier and 1128 01:27:25,279 --> 01:27:28,800 entertaining than I thought it would be. So I don't know if I've necessarily 1129 01:27:28,840 --> 01:27:32,720 watched it again because everyone is so awful that it didn't feel enjoyable in that 1130 01:27:32,880 --> 01:27:38,760 sense, but it was. It was a fun way to engage with more 1131 01:27:38,880 --> 01:27:42,520 serious subject matter. So that's kind of my final thoughts on this movie. 1132 01:27:42,720 --> 01:27:47,239 Al Right, okay, alread Anna, I'll go next, really really quickly. 1133 01:27:47,520 --> 01:27:55,760 I don't think that I would watch this movie again. I I hate 1134 01:27:55,920 --> 01:28:02,680 the main character. I'm sad for the on and he doesn't learn a lesson. 1135 01:28:02,960 --> 01:28:06,640 He doesn't learn any kind of lesson, and I really need him to 1136 01:28:06,800 --> 01:28:11,960 learn a lesson, and so I don't think that I would watch again. 1137 01:28:12,119 --> 01:28:14,720 Very well acted, it was fun to watch, like I did like in 1138 01:28:14,800 --> 01:28:17,479 some ways it was fun to watch, but mostly I hate the character, 1139 01:28:17,680 --> 01:28:25,439 and therefore I shan't. I shan't be watching this film again. That's all 1140 01:28:25,479 --> 01:28:29,359 I have. Oh right, Andy, you want to go sure? Yeah. 1141 01:28:29,439 --> 01:28:32,239 So I also enjoyed it, but I had seen it a long time 1142 01:28:32,279 --> 01:28:35,720 ago, and it was fun to watch again. I got my whatever I 1143 01:28:35,880 --> 01:28:41,600 paid a blockbuster fifteen years ago for it, so I got my five dollars 1144 01:28:41,720 --> 01:28:46,640 worth many years delayed. Yeah, I enjoyed it, and it's sort of 1145 01:28:47,279 --> 01:28:50,960 it is its own thing, right, If you're expecting redemption or growth, 1146 01:28:51,359 --> 01:28:55,560 you're not going to find it. But but that's not the point. Apparently 1147 01:28:55,560 --> 01:28:59,800 it was actually like a bestselling novel in the nineties, and it took him 1148 01:28:59,840 --> 01:29:03,279 forever to finally get all the pieces together and line up all the people that 1149 01:29:03,399 --> 01:29:06,640 needed to make it into a movie. But one thing that I think is 1150 01:29:06,720 --> 01:29:13,479 interesting about it is how prescient it was in that at the time, maybe 1151 01:29:13,479 --> 01:29:17,479 it was sort of novel to think about tobacco lobbies and sowing seeds of doubt 1152 01:29:17,600 --> 01:29:23,680 and presenting a debate that isn't actually a debate. It's settled science. Cigarettes 1153 01:29:23,680 --> 01:29:28,359 are bad. But you could plug kind of the same narrative into people who 1154 01:29:29,359 --> 01:29:34,439 champion climate change skepticism, again, sowing seeds of doubt, not necessarily making 1155 01:29:34,520 --> 01:29:40,439 a positive claim, but just casting doubt on claims that the Earth is warming. 1156 01:29:41,000 --> 01:29:44,439 And as I think about it, you know, over the last couple 1157 01:29:44,479 --> 01:29:48,720 of years of sowing doubt about the pandemic, about the value of health protective 1158 01:29:48,760 --> 01:29:54,960 behaviors. We sort of are now, maybe more cynical and attentive to the 1159 01:29:55,039 --> 01:29:59,239 fact that folks like Nick Naylor are a little more omnipresent than we may have 1160 01:29:59,319 --> 01:30:02,239 given credit when this came out in two thousand and five. So for that 1161 01:30:02,359 --> 01:30:06,399 reason, I think it's worth a watch today, even though it was made 1162 01:30:06,600 --> 01:30:12,479 quite a while ago. Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think the 1163 01:30:12,640 --> 01:30:15,159 last time I watched this movie, I was sitting in my dorm room in 1164 01:30:15,239 --> 01:30:17,079 Thomas Hall at Eastern Illinois when it was on the movie Channel, which was 1165 01:30:17,560 --> 01:30:24,000 among my favorite things, the campus movie channel. See right, you just 1166 01:30:24,720 --> 01:30:28,640 you are up at two am, board or studying or whatever else you may 1167 01:30:28,680 --> 01:30:31,199 be doing in college, and then man, there is a great movie that 1168 01:30:31,279 --> 01:30:33,960 is going to come on. Because whoever picked those, they would pick weird 1169 01:30:34,279 --> 01:30:39,319 movies, but they were all good, and this is one of them that 1170 01:30:39,439 --> 01:30:42,880 just like ran on a loop for a while, like they'd run a couple 1171 01:30:42,920 --> 01:30:45,279 of different movies all day for like a week or whatever. But this one 1172 01:30:45,399 --> 01:30:50,199 came on and I really enjoyed this. Then I enjoy it more now. 1173 01:30:50,359 --> 01:30:57,560 Although the prophecy told by movies made around this time that were supposed to be 1174 01:30:57,640 --> 01:31:06,520 satirical and not prophetic. Between this and the joyous film that Idiocracy, the 1175 01:31:06,680 --> 01:31:14,239 glorious gem that that was, is these have become almost predictive of the realities 1176 01:31:14,279 --> 01:31:16,840 that we live in. They were supposed to be warnings. We're not supposed 1177 01:31:16,880 --> 01:31:24,680 to be targets, and yet here we are sowing doubt. Having someone actively 1178 01:31:25,039 --> 01:31:30,239 tell everyone I am literally just going to say bullshit and that person be elected 1179 01:31:30,279 --> 01:31:35,159 president of the United States is not something I think any of us thought was 1180 01:31:35,279 --> 01:31:41,479 real, and yet here we are and that happened, and we went through 1181 01:31:41,520 --> 01:31:45,079 this time we're like, hey, there's a disease that's killing millions of people, 1182 01:31:45,119 --> 01:31:49,079 and people are like, nah, it's not real. What what? 1183 01:31:49,720 --> 01:31:55,239 And the number of us that got drawn into arguments with keyboard trolls that were 1184 01:31:55,359 --> 01:31:59,600 Nick Naylor's in training, maybe less smart and probably less handsome and a little 1185 01:31:59,640 --> 01:32:06,439 more neckity, but it became real. And watching this movie, now that 1186 01:32:06,880 --> 01:32:11,359 we're more on the other side of that than we were a couple of years 1187 01:32:11,399 --> 01:32:15,239 ago, I find the humor in it again and can see like the Okay, 1188 01:32:16,000 --> 01:32:21,399 maybe just maybe watching movies like this can help me inoculate myself a little 1189 01:32:21,439 --> 01:32:27,399 bit more against these people. And rather than take the approach we've all had 1190 01:32:27,439 --> 01:32:30,560 to take. I think just just the way that this film speaks to you 1191 01:32:30,640 --> 01:32:36,319 as an opportunity to consider the mentality of the person you're arguing against before getting 1192 01:32:36,359 --> 01:32:43,399 drawn into the argument and realize that you couldn't win anyway. There is literally 1193 01:32:43,479 --> 01:32:47,840 no way to win. So don't feed the troll. And it is probably 1194 01:32:47,920 --> 01:32:50,840 the best message you can give for your mental health that if you're sitting around 1195 01:32:50,880 --> 01:32:57,039 at the Thanksgiving table and all of a sudden, Grandpa Frank says, wow 1196 01:32:57,159 --> 01:33:01,399 about them democrats, you go like, oh, look at that my dog 1197 01:33:01,479 --> 01:33:05,640 shit on the floor, and you just leave. Well, what you don't 1198 01:33:05,680 --> 01:33:09,680 do? You don't feed the troll. You solve its three riddles and then 1199 01:33:09,720 --> 01:33:14,560 you cross the bridge and then you're good. But if right, but you 1200 01:33:14,640 --> 01:33:19,000 have to first ask it what the flying velocity of a swallow is? What? 1201 01:33:20,720 --> 01:33:24,920 I hear you? I got your bed all right? I'm ashamed. 1202 01:33:25,199 --> 01:33:30,640 I am ashamed, Brittany shame anyway, Anyway, I like this film. 1203 01:33:30,720 --> 01:33:32,680 I would watch it again, and I it may have been something I watched 1204 01:33:32,720 --> 01:33:36,199 in Psychopathology of Film that we we talked about at Eastern, which is my 1205 01:33:36,199 --> 01:33:40,920 favorite class ever. So I think this movie is great. All right, 1206 01:33:41,000 --> 01:33:44,520 Well, um, Andy, before we sign off, where would you like 1207 01:33:44,720 --> 01:33:53,199 to be found? Place of my choosing is so you can find out more 1208 01:33:53,199 --> 01:33:56,920 about me and the research that I do at Andy Latrelle dot com latrell with 1209 01:33:56,960 --> 01:34:01,640 twots, two oils, and podcast is called Opinion Science, which you can 1210 01:34:01,720 --> 01:34:04,439 get anywhere. And so most of those, like I said, are our 1211 01:34:04,479 --> 01:34:10,119 interviews with social scientists, but some of them are more narrative explorations of big 1212 01:34:10,279 --> 01:34:15,319 ideas in social psychology with some cool stuff hopefully on the horizon area, so 1213 01:34:15,479 --> 01:34:17,800 you can find that you know, all the places wherever you're listening to this, 1214 01:34:18,319 --> 01:34:23,119 just go ahead and type in opinion science and you'll find me there too. 1215 01:34:23,560 --> 01:34:26,960 Oh great, all right, And like always, you can find us 1216 01:34:27,079 --> 01:34:32,039 on Facebook and Instagram and TikTok at Poporn Psychology on Twitter for now at Popcorn 1217 01:34:32,159 --> 01:34:36,239 Underscore psych You can always email us at Popcorn Psychology at gmail dot com. 1218 01:34:36,600 --> 01:34:40,159 We have a t public account if you ever want to get any of our 1219 01:34:40,319 --> 01:34:43,279 merch and we also have a Patreon if you would like to be a generous 1220 01:34:43,319 --> 01:34:47,279 sponsor of our little rag tag podcast. So if that, we wish you 1221 01:34:47,439 --> 01:34:49,640 a happy day and don't let anyone get in your head