1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,520 Before I met Jonathan in the flesh, I might have a photograph of Jonathan 2 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:06,440 there, and my living them filling thing comes in and he moves into the 3 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:10,320 house. I don't need the photograph, you know, it's redundant Jonathan himself, 4 00:00:10,679 --> 00:00:14,119 and so there's it's interesting because you know, I'm so bound up in 5 00:00:14,199 --> 00:00:18,199 the question of symbolism. But you in the Orthodox, especially in the Orthodox 6 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,960 iconographic tradition, there's some aspect of it, which is you could call anti 7 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:27,079 symbolic, in the sense that moving towards saying Christ is the finality of these 8 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,719 images. And so when you have Christ, you're not necessarily wanting to represent 9 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,920 him in these shadows, but you have the thing itself. Doesn't mean that 10 00:00:35,119 --> 00:00:38,640 symbolism doesn't continue to exist in this typological way, but there's a sense in 11 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:54,640 which Christ is the is the end of the of the symbolic pyramid. This 12 00:00:54,759 --> 00:01:10,079 is Jonathan Pegel. Welcome to the symbolic world. My name is Margarita Mooney 13 00:01:10,159 --> 00:01:14,879 Clayton. I'm an associate professor in the Department of Practical Theology here at Princeton 14 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:19,439 Theological Seminary. I'm also the founder and executive director of Schala Foundation, which 15 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:23,719 is a nonprofit whose mission is to renew culture through liberal arts, education, 16 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:30,159 beauty and worship. I'm joining you here today from the studios at Princeton Theological 17 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:36,439 Seminary, where I have the pleasure of hosting Aiden Hart, an iconographer born 18 00:01:36,439 --> 00:01:40,359 in England, raised in New Zealand, now residing in England, and Jonathan 19 00:01:40,359 --> 00:01:45,519 Pagot from Quebec, Canada, who was also an iconographer and icon sculptor. 20 00:01:46,159 --> 00:01:51,480 Both Aiden and Jonathan are here this weekend for the conference on Art, the 21 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:57,239 Common Good and the Sacred being hosted by SCALA and Princeton Theological Seminary, And 22 00:01:57,319 --> 00:02:00,200 before we do that public event, I wanted to sit down with them and 23 00:02:00,239 --> 00:02:05,959 talk to the two of them as artists about how they think about the relationship 24 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:12,479 between scripture, image and symbol. Specifically, we're going to talk a bit 25 00:02:12,599 --> 00:02:17,240 about one particular icon, that of the transfiguration. But before we jump into 26 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:22,560 that particular icon, I wanted to say that for the class I'm teaching on 27 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:27,240 esthetics in Christian Education, I read very carefully Aiden Hart's book, Beauty, 28 00:02:27,599 --> 00:02:32,159 Spirit and Matter, Icons in the Modern World, and what struck me about 29 00:02:32,159 --> 00:02:39,360 this book was this idea that images remind us that life with Christ is above 30 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:46,960 all a relationship between persons, and in that book, Aiden explains that in 31 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:51,800 the tradition of icons, it's both Christ's divinity and his humanity are supposed to 32 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,080 be represented. So just as the words of scripture are supposed to reveal to 33 00:02:55,199 --> 00:03:00,000 us who God is, so images are supposed to help us understand Christ's divinity 34 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:07,840 and his humanity. Aiden also explains in this book some timeless principles of liturgical 35 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,759 art, and those principles, let me see if I get these right. 36 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,759 Aiden. I don't have them memorized, but I have them written down. 37 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:16,599 One timeless principle of liturgical art is that, well, what I just said, 38 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:21,319 that God became man the incarnation, right, so Christ showed himself as 39 00:03:21,319 --> 00:03:24,120 a man. Second that, in the Transfiguration, which is what we're going 40 00:03:24,199 --> 00:03:29,199 to talk about today, we got a glimpse of dimonized man, and I 41 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,919 want to unpack what that means and what that looks like. In the icons 42 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:37,520 of the Transfiguration. You're taking on a big stance here theologically when you say 43 00:03:38,199 --> 00:03:42,680 that matter can be grace bearing, so I want to talk about that. 44 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,719 And then you also say a fourth principle is that human beings are fulfilled in 45 00:03:46,879 --> 00:03:52,159 relationship. That's why it's important to see the faces of others. And fifth, 46 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:55,800 the fifth principle of liturgical art is that we have what's called the noos 47 00:03:55,879 --> 00:04:00,960 a noetic faculty, the eye of the heart. That we don't just know 48 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,800 about God. With the news, we can know God. Did I get 49 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:08,840 those five principles? Right? Yeah? Yeah, more or less? Yes, 50 00:04:09,319 --> 00:04:12,479 the news uh in lives them by the Holy Spirit. And no man 51 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:16,360 can see God, so it's almost to say say God sees himself through the 52 00:04:16,439 --> 00:04:19,079 news. So it's always a syner to a union of the two. But 53 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:23,439 yes, that's five points are really important. Well, let's stay on the 54 00:04:23,439 --> 00:04:25,839 news that Let's let's sail on the news for a second, because this was 55 00:04:25,879 --> 00:04:28,959 a I admit this was a new concept to me. Like the news, 56 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,040 How do you describe the news, Jonathan? I think, I mean the 57 00:04:31,079 --> 00:04:35,319 way to understand that the news, let's say, practically, is to understand 58 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:41,519 that there's an there's a capacity that humans have to grasp things directly. Maybe 59 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,639 the best way to understand it that is pre discursive. It's not it's not 60 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,319 a discursive it's not a description, it's not a it's a it's a contact 61 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:51,839 that is direct and full. Uh. And so the news is necessary for 62 00:04:51,879 --> 00:04:56,480 you to exist. But there's something about our thoughts and about our desires and 63 00:04:56,519 --> 00:05:00,600 about our passions that clouds us from being able to you live in that space. 64 00:05:01,199 --> 00:05:04,399 And much of the spiritual practice, you know, in the Orthodox Church, 65 00:05:04,439 --> 00:05:09,079 for example, is there in some ways to purify the news, that 66 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,360 is, to kind of still the thoughts, still the images, still the 67 00:05:12,959 --> 00:05:15,000 buzzing and the warring, so that we can enter into the heart. You 68 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:17,639 know, he talked about the eye of the heart, enter into the heart. 69 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,959 And then it's in that position that all of a sudden the news can 70 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:28,560 be open to revelation to the Holy Spirit, and then you can grasp things 71 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:32,439 directly, like you can see them pierced with God. But then ultimately the 72 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:38,399 contention is that you can also you know, see the divine light. You 73 00:05:38,439 --> 00:05:43,560 can enter into God himself. Wow. See, okay, these are big 74 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:49,439 claims. I do actually remember distinctly my senior year of college at Yale, 75 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:54,879 after I had taken classes in psychology and sociology, and I remember walking into 76 00:05:54,959 --> 00:05:59,959 church and thinking, this is a collection of rituals that human beings say means 77 00:06:00,079 --> 00:06:02,879 certain things, and other people in other points of time have come up with 78 00:06:02,959 --> 00:06:09,160 rituals that they say mean certain things, And how do I know that any 79 00:06:09,199 --> 00:06:14,199 of these symbols or any of these rituals are actually anything more than a human 80 00:06:14,759 --> 00:06:18,000 creation. So when I read your book now, I'm still a practicing Catholic, 81 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,759 I always have been. But as I'm teaching my students about these images, 82 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,600 the students might be captivated, maybe their news is being activated, They're 83 00:06:26,639 --> 00:06:30,879 having an encounter, but they're posing this question, how do I know that 84 00:06:30,959 --> 00:06:34,079 this image that I'm looking at is actually revelation or how do I know that 85 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:39,319 it's not something from my imagination? But another thing I loved reading in your 86 00:06:39,319 --> 00:06:43,639 books, Aiden, is that working as an iconographer, you have a way 87 00:06:43,639 --> 00:06:47,000 of approaching this question about what do we depict in art and why? So 88 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,199 that's what I wanted to talk to you about today. Can we just pick 89 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,759 the two of you pick? I thought, let's go with the transfiguration because 90 00:06:53,759 --> 00:06:57,920 that figures so centrally in your book Beauty, Spirit and Matter, And I 91 00:06:57,959 --> 00:07:01,240 wonder if we can unpack the events of the transfiguration, the encounter of the 92 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:05,959 symbols, the meanings, and from there just have a conversation about how do 93 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:13,000 we know when symbols come together to reveal who God is or what's the human 94 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,800 invention. That's a big question, I know. Well, let's start with 95 00:07:15,839 --> 00:07:23,000 the transfiguration. You know what happens to the transfiguration, Well, the Lord 96 00:07:23,079 --> 00:07:27,480 does. Going straight from the gospels, three of the gospels related ironically, 97 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:30,959 the One or the three Disciples. John who was there, didn't write about 98 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:34,600 it in his gospel, but the other three gospels describe it. Christ takes 99 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:38,920 Peter, James, and John up to a high mountain. It doesn't describe 100 00:07:38,959 --> 00:07:42,879 what the mountain is in the scriptures, bit by tradition it's table, and 101 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,480 this says that he's transfigured. And then Moses and Elijah appear with him, 102 00:07:46,959 --> 00:07:51,199 and they're conversing about his coming glory, which means his crucifixion. And then 103 00:07:51,439 --> 00:07:55,199 dear Peter, who always likes to blurt things out, says, Lord, 104 00:07:55,199 --> 00:08:00,240 it's good to be here. Let's make three tints, and then the voice 105 00:08:00,279 --> 00:08:03,680 of the Father speaks, and then Moses and nags a go and they come 106 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:05,920 back down again. So that's the basic story, but there's so much packed 107 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:11,879 into that. I think that's one reason because it's so pregnant that traditionally, 108 00:08:11,959 --> 00:08:15,720 I don't know how often it happens when an iconographer is fully trained, that's 109 00:08:15,759 --> 00:08:20,519 the first icon they paint. Why would that be it? It's everything the 110 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:26,480 incarnation communion. But also because much of the theology of the of the icon, 111 00:08:26,759 --> 00:08:28,959 you know, and the theology of Orthodox mysticism, is related to the 112 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,799 question of light and to this notion of divine light. And so the image 113 00:08:33,799 --> 00:08:39,559 of the transfiguration, right is that is that's what's going on in that in 114 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,840 that image, it's about light, and icons are about light, I mean, 115 00:08:43,919 --> 00:08:48,159 especially painted icons. That's what they're dealing with. And this light it 116 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:52,080 least to Orthodox theology, it's God himself. God doesn't create a gift of 117 00:08:52,159 --> 00:08:56,960 light and give it to us like the sun. We can't of course into 118 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:00,519 the orb of the sun, but the sun comes to us. So the 119 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,679 light in the warmth coming from the sun is Sun, isn't it. So 120 00:09:03,799 --> 00:09:07,679 this is the glory of God himself, the Chakina glory to use the Hebrew 121 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:11,279 coming to us. So it's symbolic, but it's much more than somebodic it's 122 00:09:11,279 --> 00:09:16,120 actually encounter with the living God. A lot of the old Testament is experiencing 123 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:24,639 God via something. Moses and Elijah, who appear with Christ, they get 124 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:30,120 an inkling of God. So Moses hears God's still sees God in the mount 125 00:09:30,159 --> 00:09:33,559 sign's sort of thunder and lightning, and he hears God but doesn't actually see 126 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:35,679 the Lord, and alied to Likewise, she comes to the mouth of the 127 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:41,240 cave and hears God is a still small voice, a partial evelation, but 128 00:09:41,519 --> 00:09:45,759 there transfiguration. They see the Lord face to face, incarnate Lord face to 129 00:09:45,759 --> 00:09:48,879 face. That's the opposite of symbolism, symbolism to the face of God. 130 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:54,840 Give me the op It's the opposite of symbolism in the sense that that which 131 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,679 they're seeing is the combination of symbolism. Maybe it's the best way to understand 132 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:03,399 it. It is our footsteps. Aden's got it exactly right. That is, 133 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:05,480 you know, it happens on a mountain, just like Elijah, just 134 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,240 like Moses. There's a sense in which you know it's going up towards that 135 00:10:09,399 --> 00:10:15,039 space where heaven and earth meat. But now what is seen there is the 136 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,200 source of revelation itself. It's the culmination of revelation at the same time, 137 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:22,000 and that's one of the reasons why. For example, Moses and Elijah are 138 00:10:22,039 --> 00:10:28,159 brought to see right the very source of creation. It's almost you could almost 139 00:10:28,159 --> 00:10:31,200 say that it's a little moment of eternity, right, It's like it's their 140 00:10:31,279 --> 00:10:35,080 encounter with God that is happening, the promise when they ask God. Right 141 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:39,000 when Moses asked, he said, God, show me, show yourself to 142 00:10:39,039 --> 00:10:41,120 me. And God has said, well, I'll show you my back. 143 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:46,399 And now he's getting the fullness of what he asked for. And this isn't 144 00:10:46,519 --> 00:10:50,120 just Jonathan and I dreaming things up. If we look at the because people 145 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:52,360 say, well, all the stuff, how do you know? It's in 146 00:10:52,519 --> 00:10:58,000 the turgical text, the face that the icon is brought out and put in 147 00:10:58,039 --> 00:11:01,080 a what's called an analoi on the face of the transfiguration, and then we 148 00:11:01,159 --> 00:11:05,159 hear all these incredible hymns. It just full of theology. I have a 149 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:09,240 book called the Fest of Manam which has the translations into English of all the 150 00:11:09,279 --> 00:11:13,679 fixed feasts, and it's just got underlining and notes. It's just profound theology. 151 00:11:15,879 --> 00:11:20,559 So it's from these texts that we're talking about, really, these patristic 152 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:24,399 texts that have been tried and tested and always related to the scriptures. The 153 00:11:24,159 --> 00:11:31,799 translation into English has notations underneath referring to every Biblical verse referred to directly or 154 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:35,240 tangentially in the text, and only about five references there, so there are 155 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:41,519 that much hinmographical text has got about five biblical references, so it's rooted in 156 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:45,480 the scripture. So Moses died, God buried him. It says Elijah went 157 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,679 to heaven. So it talks about Moses and Elijah represent all the living and 158 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,360 the dead, but together with Christ. And in the icon the top half 159 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:56,480 you have Christ with Moses and Elijah who are in heaven. Down below you 160 00:11:56,559 --> 00:12:01,879 have Peter, James and John who on earth. But the war within the 161 00:12:01,879 --> 00:12:05,200 rectangular the icon. So in fact this is the Church. Yeah, the 162 00:12:05,279 --> 00:12:09,080 Church living in dead prophets all together they are let's slow down for many here, 163 00:12:09,159 --> 00:12:16,960 because we have five scripture references, but all of this hymnology. So 164 00:12:16,279 --> 00:12:22,600 you're saying that the icon evolved both from the scriptural references. But as it 165 00:12:22,759 --> 00:12:26,240 was, there's also imagery or poetry. Let's say, in these liturgical texts 166 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:31,440 that talk about the feastis it makes profound truth through poetry and it's I mean 167 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:37,799 they're expressing typology and so it's not that the poet just thought up nice images. 168 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:41,919 Is that the poet is versed in the Psalms, its versed in the 169 00:12:41,919 --> 00:12:46,440 Old Testament, and that these insights through noedic experience, the insights of seeing 170 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:50,639 all of a sudden the transfiguration hinted at right, glimmers of it in Moses, 171 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:54,039 glimmers of it in different parts of the Old Testament, and then seeing 172 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:58,480 that this is all being connected in the story of the Gospel. It's interesting 173 00:12:58,519 --> 00:13:03,200 to what it's st hymnography is actual a kind of the Bible interpreting itself, 174 00:13:03,279 --> 00:13:07,679 right, referring to these old images, bringing them back and showing you how 175 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:09,799 they connect and how all this is brought together in the person of Christ. 176 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:16,679 So one hymn talks about when you are transfigured at Christ, you reveal the 177 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,200 original beauty of the human nature. And this refers back to a lot of 178 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:24,720 the fathers. Say that if I'm Syrian, for example, that when it 179 00:13:24,759 --> 00:13:28,559 says Adam and even naked, they've been clothed before. They've been clothed in 180 00:13:28,639 --> 00:13:31,279 light, the glory of God. So when they sin, where they lost 181 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:35,519 that light? Like if I pull out a plug or turn off a switch, 182 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:37,360 these lights go out, so it's a lamp, but yet it's not 183 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:45,360 a lamp because it's not radiant through electricity with light. So this shining Christ 184 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,960 is actually the new atom. He's put back on the garment of light. 185 00:13:50,039 --> 00:13:54,720 In other words, he's not just human. He's shining with divinity. And 186 00:13:54,759 --> 00:13:58,480 it's that it's really there. It's really there in the story because this is 187 00:13:58,519 --> 00:14:01,879 also happening during the Feast of Tabernacles. So the question that Peter asks, 188 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,240 it's almost a joke in this in the story. You know, Peter says, 189 00:14:05,399 --> 00:14:07,559 can we give you a garment? Can we cover this? Like? 190 00:14:07,639 --> 00:14:11,840 Can we make a house for it? And and Christ? This is this, 191 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:15,600 this moment is beyond that, right, This is not this is not 192 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,000 a This is more than a moment that can only be held within the tent 193 00:14:18,039 --> 00:14:22,240 of even the tent of the tabernacle, because that's what being alluded to. 194 00:14:22,519 --> 00:14:24,840 You hear the glory of God appearing to us. Can we build a tent 195 00:14:24,879 --> 00:14:28,879 around it to contain it? And not this one? Right, It's so 196 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,759 what you're saying, is that dialogue between Peter and Jesus just that simple thing. 197 00:14:33,799 --> 00:14:37,240 Can we put a tent around it is actually a reference. Yeah, 198 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:39,440 yeah, yeah, he can realize. No, no, it doesn't matter, 199 00:14:39,559 --> 00:14:41,840 right, It's like he was just in the moment in saying it. 200 00:14:41,879 --> 00:14:46,200 But then when you see it in retrospect, just like the disciples themselves at 201 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:50,279 Pentecosts, all of a sudden, you know, saw all these things that 202 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,080 Christ had done, and how they connected. They participated in that too, 203 00:14:54,799 --> 00:14:58,879 spoke throughpannacle. Except re first to the Feast of Tapernacles, and that was 204 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:01,000 to remember when I lived in the jest and God was with them in the 205 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:05,840 desert, because of course during the daytime the Lord led them forth as a 206 00:15:05,919 --> 00:15:11,759 pillar of a cloud. At night in a pillar of flyers. So the 207 00:15:11,799 --> 00:15:15,480 feasture Tapernacles was tore month that God was with them and the desert. So 208 00:15:15,639 --> 00:15:18,639 here, in fact, he's prophesying in a way page we're saying, this 209 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:24,120 is the fulfillment. The pillar of fire is here. Before I said to 210 00:15:24,159 --> 00:15:28,120 God himself and then Jesus response that no, we cannot put a tent around 211 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,799 it is to say, this is not the symbol of the glory. This 212 00:15:31,879 --> 00:15:35,919 is the exactly, this is the real thing. Like that's this, this 213 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:39,000 is the real thing. Before I met Jonathan in the flesh. I might 214 00:15:39,039 --> 00:15:43,960 have a photograph of Jonathan there and my living themforing thing comes in and he 215 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,519 moves into the house. I don't need the photograph, you know, it's 216 00:15:46,519 --> 00:15:50,279 redundant. I've got Jonathan himself. It's interesting because you know, I'm so 217 00:15:50,679 --> 00:15:54,759 bound up in the question of symbolism. But you in the Authodox, especially 218 00:15:54,759 --> 00:15:58,600 in the Orthodox iconographic tradition, there's some aspect of it which is you could 219 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:03,799 call anti symbolic in this sense that they moving towards saying Christ is the finality 220 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,240 of these images, and so when you have Christ, you're not necessarily wanting 221 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:11,440 to represent him in these shadows, but you have the thing itself. Doesn't 222 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,360 mean that symbolism doesn't continue to exist in this typological way, but there's a 223 00:16:15,399 --> 00:16:21,639 sense in which Christ is the end of the symbolic pyramid. Areas the price 224 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:25,919 or time for symbols represent to do well, And to go back to the 225 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:30,320 anecdote I shared with you before about myself as a senior in college, it's 226 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,519 a little bit frightening when you begin to realize that there's other rituals, and 227 00:16:33,559 --> 00:16:37,279 there's other symbols, and there's other meanings and there's other ways of thinking about 228 00:16:37,279 --> 00:16:40,960 worship, because I think for me, as a young person, I wanted 229 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,840 to believe that these rituals and these symbols truly were what I had been told 230 00:16:44,879 --> 00:16:47,159 they meant, and that I could have this encounter with God. Because the 231 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,440 alternative is to say, well, none of this means anything, and all 232 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,720 of this is just made up, and whatever I choose to believe the symbols 233 00:16:52,759 --> 00:16:56,240 mean is what they mean, and that's what it means to me, and 234 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:00,399 it's all the same, right, And that wasn't very satisfying to me either, 235 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,679 because if I just make up the meaning, then I'm not really getting 236 00:17:03,679 --> 00:17:06,559 the meaning of my life because I can just claim it to be one thing. 237 00:17:06,839 --> 00:17:08,359 You know. But what I hear you saying is, well, there's 238 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:14,519 a rich history of symbols and symbolic thinking, but Christianity is actually claiming this 239 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:18,599 isn't just about symbols. We're actually claiming you can meet God in his glory. 240 00:17:18,799 --> 00:17:21,759 Is that right, Well, that would be the point of symbols also, 241 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,559 I mean the point of You could say that the point of creation is 242 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:30,079 so that it can meet God, and so even the symbols or the symbolic 243 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:33,160 hierarchy or these these these inklings are there as they're there to act as a 244 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:37,480 ladder. That's the only thing they're Therefore, they're not just for our just 245 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:42,559 enjoyment in thinking about concepts, but they have to if they don't provide levels 246 00:17:42,599 --> 00:17:47,920 of insight that can bring you closer to a divine encounter than there, they're 247 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:49,400 kind of pointless, you know, you can be just turning around, going 248 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:53,200 around in circles. In fact, the word symbol is a combination to Greek 249 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:57,480 words and volus, which means literally to throw you together. So the aim 250 00:17:57,519 --> 00:18:03,519 of a symbol is to draw us together with the architectures Christ. So once 251 00:18:03,759 --> 00:18:07,319 you're together, then the symbol is fulfilled its function. You don't discard it. 252 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:11,720 You're sort of thankful for that tree or whatever that brought you closer to 253 00:18:11,759 --> 00:18:14,720 God. I came to believe in God's existence through trees. Now, I 254 00:18:14,799 --> 00:18:17,920 used to hide in trees as a child, playing hide and go seek, 255 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:22,160 and it's sort of quiet where I came to be. There must be a 256 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,920 God who made these incredible things called trees. So when I was a hermits 257 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,799 living in twenty acres of van, I planted five thousand trees and thanksgiving to 258 00:18:29,839 --> 00:18:32,960 God and thanksgiving to the trees, if you like, for being, like 259 00:18:33,079 --> 00:18:37,240 said John the Baptist, leading me to God. So it's not as so 260 00:18:37,319 --> 00:18:41,079 now matters Standard's job. I can spit it out. It could of makes 261 00:18:41,079 --> 00:18:45,559 the symbol richer. It remains there, but beside Christ instead of In Eastern 262 00:18:45,599 --> 00:18:52,039 and Western Christianity you have these three stages of movement toward Christ. In the 263 00:18:52,039 --> 00:18:57,400 West it's called purification, illumination, and union, and in the East it 264 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:03,839 tends to be called practical theology. From praxis something you do. You've got 265 00:19:03,839 --> 00:19:07,240 to act and make an effort to repent. And then Fisher kei theology or 266 00:19:07,319 --> 00:19:11,200 natural theology, perceiving God and the natural in the created world. And then 267 00:19:11,319 --> 00:19:15,519 mister Keith for your logi or mystical theology. So the first is repentance, 268 00:19:15,559 --> 00:19:19,279 being purified, as Jonathan was saying, you can't see unless you'd get the 269 00:19:19,319 --> 00:19:25,279 cataracts off. But the second, which is related to symbolism, is perceiving 270 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:29,440 the words of God within each created thing. So this plant behind us, 271 00:19:29,519 --> 00:19:32,759 it didn't just come out of nothing. God spoke plant whatever it is, 272 00:19:32,799 --> 00:19:36,880 rubber plant, and the rubber plant comes into existence. But that word that 273 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:40,559 the Lord spoke actually keeps that in existence. So when I see the rubber 274 00:19:40,559 --> 00:19:42,839 plant, I don't see a plant. It's a gift of love to me. 275 00:19:44,839 --> 00:19:47,599 My wedding ring, it's just hung of gold. But when I look 276 00:19:47,599 --> 00:19:51,720 at that, I see my wife's love for me. And then following these 277 00:19:51,759 --> 00:19:56,759 footsteps the log or implul these words embedded in creation, I eventually come to 278 00:19:56,839 --> 00:19:59,640 feet and a look up and there's the facial of the Lord. The logosso 279 00:19:59,759 --> 00:20:03,480 sound we can't see. We can't look at the sun straight away, but 280 00:20:03,559 --> 00:20:07,079 gradually our eyes suggust until eventually we can look at the face of the Sun 281 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:14,079 himself. Well, speaking of that kind of gradual assent maybe to the face 282 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:18,319 of God, I would say that the transfiguration is a feast in the church 283 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,799 or a part of the scriptures that I always struggle to relate to. It's 284 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:27,559 not that long, not that many words going on there, And I wasn't 285 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:32,720 until you know, a little bit later in life that there was something about 286 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:36,680 the transfiguration that captured my imagination and I wanted to try to understand it more 287 00:20:36,759 --> 00:20:40,720 because I wanted to believe that in the midst of these struggles that I was 288 00:20:40,759 --> 00:20:44,920 having in these issues and these problems that God still loved me and he loved 289 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,359 the people around me, and that things were going to be okay. And 290 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:49,799 I think that this as a very visceral human desire, right that in the 291 00:20:49,799 --> 00:20:52,880 midst of struggle and suffering, you begin to ask, okay, or is 292 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:56,759 this faith that I've been given? Is it really real? Like? Can 293 00:20:56,799 --> 00:21:00,119 I really see God even in the midst of all of this difficulty? But 294 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,640 I will say the transfiguration is not something I remember being taught about much in 295 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,200 catechism or having much of a way to think about it. So when I 296 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:08,880 picked up your book, as I mentioned Beauty, Spirit and Matter, I 297 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,640 said, Oh, finally here's someone's kind of unpacking the meaning of this to 298 00:21:12,839 --> 00:21:18,559 me. So let's let's talk a little bit about You mentioned that what an 299 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,839 iconographer begins to train, this is the first one once they finish their training. 300 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:23,920 Once they finished the training, the first one they would paint. So 301 00:21:25,319 --> 00:21:29,279 what are the pieces of the icon? We mentioned Moses and Elijah? Who 302 00:21:29,279 --> 00:21:33,319 are what does it describe the icon of the transfiguration? Like, what's that? 303 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,799 What are the elements in it? I know Moses and Elijah, there's 304 00:21:36,799 --> 00:21:41,200 some rays. There's Simon, Peter, Simon is Peter right, Simon, 305 00:21:41,319 --> 00:21:44,519 James and John, Peter, James and John. Okay, Peter, James 306 00:21:44,559 --> 00:21:48,519 and John. There's some mountains, okay, So just describe the image for 307 00:21:48,559 --> 00:21:53,960 me. Describe it well. So there's variation in the image, but usually 308 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:59,599 there's a a mountain. Sometimes there's three peaks, and Christ is in the 309 00:21:59,599 --> 00:22:04,400 center and then there's a glory around him. His vestments are white, and 310 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:11,200 then you have Elijah and Moses on either side of Christ. Below, then 311 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:15,880 you have in the mountain, you will have the three disciples that are reacting 312 00:22:15,039 --> 00:22:22,599 to the to their vision. Usually James and John are kind of tumbled over, 313 00:22:22,759 --> 00:22:27,599 falling back, you know, looking away, and then Peter is sometimes 314 00:22:27,799 --> 00:22:30,599 kind of looking towards Christ. It depends on the icon, but there's a 315 00:22:30,599 --> 00:22:34,200 sense of which he's gesturing towards Christ, and that's when he is asking the 316 00:22:34,799 --> 00:22:41,359 question about about the tabernacle. There are some little details that are interesting that 317 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:45,160 that appear in the transfigression. For example, often you'll have one or two 318 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:51,640 of the disciples losing their sandal during the during the the kind of being bowled 319 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:56,240 over by this this vision. And so those are the basic elements of the 320 00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:02,839 of the transfiguration, and from the the glory can be a circle that can 321 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:08,240 be Verius shaped. You have raised coming up, that's sometimes underneath Moses and 322 00:23:08,279 --> 00:23:15,000 Knowledge've got caves with golden some later on have the discamples going up and com 323 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,400 one size and coming down the other. And that's quite important. It's not 324 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:22,519 important, but it has important. It's important in the ideas of how revelation 325 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,240 works. Right, It's like this Moses going up and bringing something down with 326 00:23:26,319 --> 00:23:29,559 him, and so having that image is definitely They don't stay up there in 327 00:23:29,559 --> 00:23:33,400 a state of extasive. They're down high scopy, crucified. That've got to 328 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:37,359 carry the grace of God into the world, all right. So in that 329 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,319 one image, I'm hearing movement up and down. I'm hearing Old Testament, 330 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,759 I'm hearing dialogue. I mean, there's a lot happening in one image. 331 00:23:45,799 --> 00:23:47,880 Now, sorry, we're going to have to go back to basics here. 332 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,839 What are Moses and Elijah doing there? Well, there's several things that they're 333 00:23:51,839 --> 00:23:56,079 doing. One is that they are fulfilling the question they asked. Most of 334 00:23:56,119 --> 00:24:00,759 them asked, you know, Moses asked to see guy, and both of 335 00:24:00,799 --> 00:24:03,759 them had a partial revelation, you know, Elijah heard that soft, that 336 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,240 quiet voice, and Moses saw the back of God as he walked by. 337 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:11,960 And so they're there to see the fullness of the glory of God. That's 338 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:15,440 what they're there for. They're there to kind of finalize their their movement towards 339 00:24:15,759 --> 00:24:19,079 revelation. So it's like, it's what it's saying, is this is the 340 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:25,240 final this is it? Like this is the fullness of revelation is being shown 341 00:24:25,319 --> 00:24:27,839 here. You know, if there's an image without saying it that is saying 342 00:24:29,519 --> 00:24:33,759 this is God, it's the transfiguration. Because why are Moses and Elijah there 343 00:24:33,759 --> 00:24:37,640 looking at you know, standing next to Christ in the center, who is 344 00:24:37,759 --> 00:24:45,039 who is revealing this glory completely? And so so that's why there That's one 345 00:24:45,039 --> 00:24:48,559 of the reasons. The Law and the prophet and Elijah the prophet. So 346 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:55,680 Christ is a fulfillment of the Law and the prophets. They not commandments, 347 00:24:55,680 --> 00:25:00,839 but the tint of meeting and the temple of all types which types of really 348 00:25:00,839 --> 00:25:03,680 physical prophecies, all of Christ. So this is a fulfillment to of them. 349 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,839 Okay, so they're beholding the glory of God and Christ. That's the 350 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,519 fulfillment of their everything prophesied about all the low everything is there, Okay, 351 00:25:12,039 --> 00:25:18,200 okay, And then Jesus has invited Peter, James and John to be there. 352 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,519 And you said that sometimes Peter is shown looking at him. Yeah, 353 00:25:22,559 --> 00:25:26,839 he's kind of gesturing towards Either he's looking or somebody he's gesturing. It depends 354 00:25:26,839 --> 00:25:30,200 on the amide, but most of the time he's looking towards Christ and gesturing 355 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,079 towards him. And each of the three postures relate to the age. So 356 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,279 the oldest one is Peter, he's looking at Christ. John is the youngest. 357 00:25:36,279 --> 00:25:38,839 He's probably about nineteen. He's the one normally looking away. James is 358 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,119 middle aged. He's sort of between the two. But what's interesting is that 359 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,240 John is the mystic. I mean, I don't like the word, but 360 00:25:45,079 --> 00:25:48,799 his symbol is the egle, so the eagle flies really high. But interestingly, 361 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,799 he's often curled up. And there's a lot of teaching about the Jesus 362 00:25:52,799 --> 00:25:56,559 peer when you do the Jesus pay off, and you make a circle out 363 00:25:56,559 --> 00:25:59,480 of your body, but you don't want your thought to shoot out there, 364 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,960 want to meet God, the Holy Spirit in your heart, so you create 365 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:10,240 a circle. So he's seeing the Lord that mystically through his heart, as 366 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:17,000 it were. So the plaintive story is about Layan monastic people experiencing the Lord 367 00:26:17,079 --> 00:26:21,039 through that in a prayer. So it's three different ways of encountering God, 368 00:26:21,079 --> 00:26:23,759 and they're not contradictory. They're just different ways. So it's not that one 369 00:26:23,799 --> 00:26:27,759 posture is superior to the other. It's that they're different ways of letting the 370 00:26:27,799 --> 00:26:30,599 mist of seeing this. Each of us are three distinct people, and each 371 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:36,039 of us will experience God in distinct ways. Wow, and why would the 372 00:26:36,079 --> 00:26:37,400 sandal be falling off? I think I have noticed that before. Why is 373 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:41,640 the sandal falling off with us? At least for me? That now this 374 00:26:41,839 --> 00:26:44,920 becomes the land of speculation. But I do think that it has to do 375 00:26:45,039 --> 00:26:49,319 with Saint Gregory of Nissa's vision of what's called the removing of the garments of 376 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:53,160 skin. There's an image in the Ascent of Moses as he goes towards the 377 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:57,160 Burning Bush where God says, remove your sandals where you're in a holy place, 378 00:26:59,319 --> 00:27:03,440 and say, greg sees that as this kind of ascetic practice where you 379 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,480 remove the passions, you remove the externals in order to enter into the heart 380 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,480 once again. And so I've always when I see that sandal falling off, 381 00:27:11,519 --> 00:27:15,519 I feel like this is a gesture towards that saying like this is this is 382 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,000 this removing of the of the outer garments and moving into the holy place. 383 00:27:19,279 --> 00:27:22,279 And it's not that fish is bad, is it. It's not saying, 384 00:27:22,279 --> 00:27:25,440 oh, the fish is bad, and the anyway you can see God it 385 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:29,039 is to get rid of that bad material stuff called the flesh. It's Jonathan 386 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,880 used the ter impassions. We need to think of passions pejoratively. But the 387 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:37,759 passions are a God given energies, but you've got to direct them toward God. 388 00:27:37,039 --> 00:27:40,440 Well, I'd say there be two other elements as well. Is that 389 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:45,960 you've already alluded to Jonathan that the lord talves mooses to take his sandals off, 390 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,079 he's encountered God and his holy ground. So this shows us that Christ 391 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:53,279 is the burning bush, a bush's physical stuff. But then it's got this 392 00:27:53,559 --> 00:27:59,519 fire which doesn't consume it. So obviously the fire is not a created fire. 393 00:27:59,559 --> 00:28:02,880 It must have been a divine fib because otherwise it would have consumed the 394 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:07,599 bush. And thirdly, if you're afraid and you're shaking your sand, might 395 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:14,200 fall off. So that's also to show that this light is actually not just 396 00:28:14,319 --> 00:28:18,839 bright physical light, but this is divine light. It's a completely different order. 397 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,359 It's an encounter with something that's completely beyond anything we can imagine in the 398 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,400 created order. So this sort of fear and the shock and this falling over 399 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:33,000 and the disorder of the disciples is to emphasize that this light is divine light. 400 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:37,039 And you see this in icons of the Mother of God with Christ. 401 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:41,680 Sometimes the sandal falls off Christ's feet, and that's because as God he knows 402 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:47,440 he's going to die and rise, but also as a human he's afraid of 403 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:51,960 death. So the child is shaking out of fear. So it's a normal 404 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:53,960 thing to be afraid of death. So this sort of sandal falling off, 405 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,200 when the bladema richon it's called, it's an indication of a thing in Christ 406 00:28:57,319 --> 00:29:02,000 humanity in that case. In this case, it's a fair Christ divinity. 407 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:07,079 Wow, and the supernatural nature of this lies. Okay, So now let's 408 00:29:07,119 --> 00:29:08,559 go to Christ in this image. You know, as I mentioned at the 409 00:29:08,599 --> 00:29:12,400 start, you say that, you know, one of the purpose of icons 410 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:18,880 is to reveal Christ in his humanity and in his divinity. So it would 411 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:22,200 seem to me that the icon of the Transfiguration, we're clearly seeing Christ in 412 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,920 his divinity. But are we also seeing Christ in his humanity? What does 413 00:29:26,039 --> 00:29:29,880 Christ look like in the Transfiguration when you paint the Transfiguration, I mean, 414 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,960 he looks like it's an image of Christ. It's a recognizable image of Christ. 415 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,480 Christ has certain characteristics that makes us recognize that it's him, So it's 416 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:41,920 definitely representing him in his humanity. You can't represent the divinity of Christ. 417 00:29:42,039 --> 00:29:45,440 You can't represent it. You can gesture towards it. You can here's a 418 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,119 place where you can kind of symbolize or gesture towards Christ's divinity. And that's 419 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,240 what the Glory. That's the role that the Glory plays in this image, 420 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:59,039 right, the rays of divine light that emanate from him. But the important 421 00:29:59,039 --> 00:30:03,480 thing theologically, a person of Christ. We're depicting icons only, and the 422 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:08,119 fathers who defended icons against the iconic class we're always affirming we're not depicting the 423 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:14,079 divinity of Christ. We're depicting the person of Christ. But the person of 424 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:18,359 Christ is divine, that he's not a human created being whom God popped into 425 00:30:18,359 --> 00:30:22,839 it was he was a good lad the personhod the hypostesis to use the week 426 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:27,160 term of Christ is that of the second person of the trinity. So you're 427 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:33,200 seeing this man uses Christ, whose personhood is divine. But as I mentioned 428 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:38,039 earlier, what is interesting is that the texts say that he has shown us 429 00:30:38,039 --> 00:30:41,119 what it is to be truly human, which is to be not merely human, 430 00:30:41,599 --> 00:30:45,039 but to be deified, to be God bearers. So I think the 431 00:30:45,039 --> 00:30:48,119 miracle is not so much a Christ is transfigured, but the fact that he 432 00:30:48,279 --> 00:30:56,200 wasn't trans In fact, the miracles that he clothed himself as it were, 433 00:30:56,519 --> 00:31:00,599 to hide his divinity. And one of the aspects of the of the mandola 434 00:31:00,759 --> 00:31:06,640 or the glory that is around Christ is usually that it's represented as a darkness 435 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,440 that moves towards light. And so usually in the middle it's dark and on 436 00:31:10,519 --> 00:31:15,640 the outside it's white and moving different tones of blue towards the towards the light. 437 00:31:15,519 --> 00:31:19,400 And that has to do with this this idea that God is beyond, 438 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:25,200 is beyond the description God cares, Yeah, and so there's a there's a 439 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:29,359 divine darkness is what how Saint Gregory divine darkness? Yeah, what is that 440 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,119 tell me more about that. I thought I thought you said it was about 441 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:37,079 light. Well that's it. So there's a So it's represented in Apoia. 442 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:41,440 It's always represented paradoxically, So there'll be different ways of saying. It's something 443 00:31:41,519 --> 00:31:44,799 like a light so bright that it blinds you, something like that, or 444 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,559 or or the idea of or that which is beyond light, even that is 445 00:31:48,599 --> 00:31:52,720 the source of light. So how do you how do you figure that you 446 00:31:52,759 --> 00:31:55,640 know that which is beyond description, which is beyond name, which is beyond 447 00:31:55,640 --> 00:32:01,559 all capacity to frame, and that is the highest aspect of of of God 448 00:32:01,599 --> 00:32:07,079 in the mystical experience and in the descriptions, even in theological descriptions. This 449 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:13,200 idea that that I talked about Saint Gregor of Nisa and the ascension of Moses, 450 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,279 and when Moses goes up, he moves into the divine darkness and says 451 00:32:16,319 --> 00:32:21,200 that there's darkness covered the mountain, and there's lightning, darkness and light. 452 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,839 And in the story of the Transfiguration you get that because it says it says 453 00:32:23,839 --> 00:32:27,759 a very contradictory thing. In the story, it says, it says they 454 00:32:27,759 --> 00:32:31,359 were they were covered by they were covered by a cloud of light. It's 455 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,640 like, what what is that? It's like two contradictory things. A cloud 456 00:32:35,759 --> 00:32:39,720 is something that is shape, it sucks to light, and then but it's 457 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:44,319 a cloud and it's it's light at the same time. So even in the 458 00:32:44,359 --> 00:32:47,279 actual text, there seems to be a kind of a porria that's presented that 459 00:32:47,279 --> 00:32:52,279 that is implying both light and dark at the same time. So it sounds 460 00:32:52,319 --> 00:32:55,319 are freaky the doctness are gone or the doc's bad, isn't it? But 461 00:32:55,400 --> 00:33:00,119 really what we're just saying is that is the unknowable unknowability of God. In 462 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:05,680 orthodoxtriology, we discern distinguished between the essence of God, which even in the 463 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,359 age to come, is unknowable, and the energies of God. It's rather 464 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:15,440 unfortunate translation, but basically it's it's the living person or God in his nobleness. 465 00:33:15,759 --> 00:33:17,240 Like if I say it I've known you for two years, I know 466 00:33:17,319 --> 00:33:21,640 you entirely, you'll be bit offended by that. Even if I know for 467 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:25,680 two thousand years, Margharita will always be unknowable to some extent. You know, 468 00:33:27,359 --> 00:33:30,160 each of us is created in God's image, so each of us it's 469 00:33:30,519 --> 00:33:34,960 eternal in the sense that we never entirely know. I mean both of us 470 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,359 are married, well married, but we know we're never going to know us 471 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,680 faust than the entirety. So these anoble essence in a way, and the 472 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:45,759 physistory of humanity. Surely it's true of gone dark to come out point of 473 00:33:45,839 --> 00:33:50,200 view, it's not darkness in God himself. But we can know we're getting 474 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,160 closer to knowing. You can know your oh yeah, of course, yeah, 475 00:33:52,279 --> 00:33:57,279 and vigorous share. Donathan's referred to a lot. He uses the term 476 00:33:57,319 --> 00:34:00,160 from glory to glory a large of course, at Saint Paul's term that in 477 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:04,119 the age that can we if growing closer to God. It's in a term 478 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:09,239 on message journey. In the transfiguration, Christ is filled with light, and 479 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:15,159 I believe you've told me in that also it's important to depict the garments are 480 00:34:15,159 --> 00:34:16,679 also filled with light. It's not just his face, it's not just the 481 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:22,840 rays emanating out from his news maybe, but his garment is transfigured. That's 482 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:24,679 what the scriptures say. It's saying that face shines with that. But all 483 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:30,719 the all three gospels talk about the garments they do. This is I don't 484 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:31,599 know if you want to speak to this is one of my favorite subjects. 485 00:34:32,079 --> 00:34:35,920 Yeah, I mean, it's just the clothes we wear, and they're just 486 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:40,000 an animate aren't they. They're not personable, they're just waven linen. But 487 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:47,000 this inanimate matter and participates in this uncreated glory. So that this is and 488 00:34:47,119 --> 00:34:51,559 in Greek one of the terms used for what we now call nature rather sadly, 489 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,920 but this is called it the created world. It's cosmos. God created 490 00:34:54,920 --> 00:35:00,199 the cosmos, and cosmos in Greek means adornment. Cosmetics comes to that. 491 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:06,159 So Christ's cosmos, Christ's garment is really the whole of the created world, 492 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:10,159 which is wrapped around himself, and he's filled with light again, So maximistic 493 00:35:10,159 --> 00:35:14,719 Confessa talks a lot about this. At each stage of Christ, he's gathering 494 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:19,960 something which have been discarded by the fall. Adam and Eve discarded creation by 495 00:35:20,079 --> 00:35:23,199 not giving thanks. It just sort of became dead. Then if I take 496 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:27,400 this garment off, it just becomes dead, it just flops. But it's 497 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,519 on me, it takes on my form, it actually participates in my personhood. 498 00:35:31,119 --> 00:35:36,960 So really what's happening in the transfiguration is that the person of God who's 499 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,960 taken on our humanity before also it's the second atom is transfigured. But through 500 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,679 the second atom, who's like a priest between the Creator and the rest of 501 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:51,880 creation, the whole of the cosmos participates in his transfiguration. And Saint Paul 502 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,119 talks about this in Roman's eight, the whole of creation sort of a groaning 503 00:35:55,440 --> 00:36:00,119 waiting for the redemption of the children of God, because it too then be 504 00:36:00,199 --> 00:36:02,800 filled with glory all of creation. But I mean, are my clothes part 505 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:09,679 of creation? They are, But there's a very deep there's a very deep 506 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:14,719 understanding of even in terms of the story of the Fall. You know, 507 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:19,360 garments are very important because Adam and Eve are clothing glory. Right, That's 508 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,400 the way that at least s an Ephrem presents it in some of the many 509 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,079 of the Church Fathers. And then in the Fall is when they kind of 510 00:36:25,119 --> 00:36:30,079 see themselves as naked, as lacking, and then they feel like they have 511 00:36:30,199 --> 00:36:34,000 to add something to themselves, and so these dead garments of skin get added 512 00:36:34,039 --> 00:36:37,679 to them. But that doesn't stop there. It becomes also civilization. Right, 513 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:42,519 So Cain goes further down into the Fall and he builds this city, 514 00:36:42,639 --> 00:36:46,119 and he builds these walls and technology and these weapons and the idea is that 515 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:51,679 that is somehow a reaction or it's a movement of the fall that's going deeper 516 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:55,360 and deeper down into basically going all the way to the flood in the biblical 517 00:36:55,440 --> 00:37:01,239 narrative, and the surprise of Christ is that he fills all of that with 518 00:37:01,519 --> 00:37:06,400 light. So the final image, let's say, of the transfiguration is the 519 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,639 heavenly Jerusalem, which is now it's like, now it's really just the entire 520 00:37:10,079 --> 00:37:14,519 world that is filled with glory. But the hint of that, or the 521 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:19,119 promise of that is exactly like Aiden said, is that this garment that Christ's 522 00:37:19,199 --> 00:37:22,119 war is now no longer let's say, a dead garment of skin, but 523 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:28,519 is now fill like it's full of the of the very glory by participation in 524 00:37:28,599 --> 00:37:30,440 the person of Christ, because the garment takes on the form of the person 525 00:37:30,519 --> 00:37:35,360 wearing it, and it's only transfigure because it's part. Often it's not him, 526 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,920 but it sort of takes on his image. So what you're saying, 527 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:45,960 I think Aiden has really profound theological implications that the person of Christ has his 528 00:37:45,559 --> 00:37:47,920 garments are part of the person of Christ. Is that what I hear you 529 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:53,320 saying distinct but yes, like act you put it, well, they helped 530 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:58,360 to reveal the person. Yeah, I mean the whole creation is in God's 531 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,199 image. I mean, we are persons with freedom, so we are more 532 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:06,960 than the image of God. But everything in creation, even to a rock, 533 00:38:07,639 --> 00:38:09,880 it's a symbol, reflects some aspect of God's life. So in fact, 534 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:14,079 the whole creation was created as a temple for us to worship God. 535 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:16,400 Don't talk much about this, you're talking about how do we know the rituals 536 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:22,079 have significance. If it's true worship, it should reflect heavenly worship. This 537 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,960 is why God had revealed to Moses exactly how to build the tens of meeting 538 00:38:27,119 --> 00:38:32,280 and exactly how to model the year liturgically, because it wasn't just man's invention 539 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,960 reaping it up. He had to reflect, had to be an icon of 540 00:38:36,039 --> 00:38:40,840 heavenly worship. So the Holy Creation is created by God as a temple for 541 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,280 us to worship Him in, and it reflected the truth of who God is. 542 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:49,039 Okay, so in some ways, I mean, because we believe that 543 00:38:49,119 --> 00:38:52,199 human means are created in the image of God, and my clothes aren't created 544 00:38:52,199 --> 00:38:54,800 in the image of God, but yet they somehow reflect God's glory, which 545 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,840 is differently that they take on your shape and your image of God. So 546 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,840 that obviously a lot of image of God than you have because there's an animate 547 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,719 you could understand. I mean, if if you want a simple example that 548 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:08,800 it's not that it doesn't I see, it's kind of confusing, but you 549 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:13,599 can you can imagine that. Let's say when you go you go to church 550 00:39:14,159 --> 00:39:15,519 and then you have a chalice, right, It's like, here's this is 551 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:19,119 kind of a child. It's like we have cups, we have things, 552 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,719 but then all of a sudden, there's this possibility of taking something which we 553 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:28,519 use in common day life and then bringing it into service and bringing it into 554 00:39:28,599 --> 00:39:32,519 worship. Then it participates in this movement towards God. And so you know, 555 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,719 so in some ways you could say that for let's say that it's a 556 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,519 liturgical movement, but think about it in terms of with the promise is that 557 00:39:40,639 --> 00:39:45,239 this will fill the whole world, right, that is what the promise is. 558 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:49,559 That the reason for creation is that it can be theophanic, that it 559 00:39:49,599 --> 00:39:52,880 can be a place where God reveals himself. I mean, in some ways 560 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:57,559 that's the reason for creation. Without that, why did God create the world? 561 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,400 Like God? Here the world out of this, it's there to reveal 562 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:06,639 for him. Okay, So all of creation from you know, plants and 563 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:13,480 trees and clothing can participate in the glory of God. Is that well, 564 00:40:13,519 --> 00:40:16,079 God created it, But it says in Hebrews that by the word of His 565 00:40:16,199 --> 00:40:21,199 power all things sustained. So God just didn't create and then he walks away, 566 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,320 and that thing has its own God remains in that and gives it life. 567 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:29,719 So Bishop chlistos Ware says that Christians aren't pantheists, but they are panenttheists. 568 00:40:30,159 --> 00:40:31,559 God is in everything, sustaining it. This is the meaning of the 569 00:40:31,639 --> 00:40:36,119 logoi. The words means in the second stage of the spiritual life is to 570 00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,920 discern see here the words of God within each created thing. There was a 571 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:45,840 high Reichy. Obviously an animal is higher up on the hierarchy than a stone. 572 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,400 But nonetheless, everything in its own way is an image of reflection, 573 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,320 takes on some elements of God's form inverted calma. So that means that the 574 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:59,239 word monocost means one who is alone and all of us call to the monarchy 575 00:40:59,519 --> 00:41:01,039 monastic in the sense that wherever I look, if I look at Jonathan, 576 00:41:01,079 --> 00:41:06,199 look at you, look at look at a tree. I'm seeing God in 577 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,079 that you're not God, that I see God coming through you. So everything 578 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:15,679 becomes iconographic. And this is I think the essence of the fall that I 579 00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:19,440 think it's Ffram who suggests that the tree of knowledge good and evil, it's 580 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,519 the whole created world, and it would become knowledge of good Fadom and Eve. 581 00:41:22,599 --> 00:41:27,079 I ask if we give thanks for it. So when you give thanks, 582 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,440 you see the person the giver in that gift. If I just grab 583 00:41:30,639 --> 00:41:35,239 that gift and turn my back, then it becomes knowledge of evil, becomes 584 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,519 dead for me. Yeah, this is why the Eucharist, I think it's 585 00:41:37,559 --> 00:41:42,000 wonderful. But the central Christian act is the Euchist to give thanks. That 586 00:41:42,119 --> 00:41:45,400 everything then is a means of beholding the Lord. So then we're all living 587 00:41:45,519 --> 00:41:51,639 like monarchy monastics, and that we're living alone with God. In fact, 588 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:53,920 the whole Uverse is gathered in. So wherever I look is the Lord. 589 00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,920 I've interested in this class on the Virgin Mary, and I like the verb 590 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,119 kind of gathering. And it sounds like from what you were saying a moment 591 00:42:00,159 --> 00:42:05,320 ago, Jonathan, that the transfiguration of the clothing the matter were meant to 592 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:07,239 gather all of the creation of God and sort of bring it back, give 593 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:09,719 thanks kind of, you know, bring it back to God. So all 594 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,400 of these things God created at this point in time, but they're meant to 595 00:42:13,679 --> 00:42:17,360 be gathered and brought back thereby participate in this in this glory. See that 596 00:42:17,599 --> 00:42:22,639 did help me, right because as a young person, well what's the alternative 597 00:42:22,679 --> 00:42:24,440 to that? Well, you use things and you do things, but it's 598 00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:29,960 completely unrelated to your march towards God. Right, you just go towards God 599 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,239 in your head. But all these things that you're interacting with, nature, 600 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:37,320 objects, etc. That's sort of superfluous to the spiritual journey. And what 601 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,639 I hear you saying is no, no, no, All of those things 602 00:42:40,039 --> 00:42:43,880 are part of our spiritual journey. They don't have a soul, they don't 603 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:47,400 have a noose. But we're meant to gather. We're meant to steward and 604 00:42:47,559 --> 00:42:52,880 to appreciate the presence the creation of God and all of matter and steward that 605 00:42:52,119 --> 00:42:55,119 gather it, bring it back to Him. And that to me was very 606 00:42:55,639 --> 00:43:00,559 moving to think that that's a beautiful way to think about life. Life rather 607 00:43:00,679 --> 00:43:06,559 than using and throwing away or consuming just for pleasure that all of these things 608 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,320 can come together. So I guess in the time that we have left, 609 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:14,360 I wondered if you know, you could share with me what this feast means 610 00:43:15,159 --> 00:43:16,880 to you, or what the transfiguration means to you. I mean, was 611 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:21,480 there a moment in time when you asked yourself, like, what really is 612 00:43:21,559 --> 00:43:23,000 the meaning of the transfiguration? What does this look like in my life? 613 00:43:23,039 --> 00:43:29,079 Why do I need to meditate on this or to ponder this particular feast. 614 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:34,800 I think that Christ, in the Gospels there are moments in his story, 615 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:39,280 and each moment reveals an aspect of the mystery that Christ is, you know. 616 00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:45,360 And so to me, the transfer I see in some way the transfiguration 617 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:49,159 and the Crucifixion as almost kind of standing in contrast with each other. You 618 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:53,639 know, there's here's this moment of where Christ is revealed in his divinity through 619 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:58,320 a kind of glory, you know, really using all the symbolism or the 620 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:00,639 Old Testament, all the symbolism of the of the glory of God, the 621 00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:06,079 Shakina, all all this this imagery is brought there, and then you have 622 00:44:06,159 --> 00:44:09,000 this other contrasting images where the glory of God, the glory Christ is actually 623 00:44:09,039 --> 00:44:13,239 being shown on the cross as well, but in a very strange, inverted 624 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:17,039 and hidden way. And so to me, I love that, like there's 625 00:44:17,079 --> 00:44:22,679 something about have it holding those two stories intention which I think is important for 626 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:28,119 us, you know, in terms of even in terms of the turgical artists, 627 00:44:28,159 --> 00:44:32,239 for example. And so we we understand that the beauty of the church, 628 00:44:32,519 --> 00:44:35,719 right, the beauty of all the things that we make, you know, 629 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,880 the frescoes, the mosaics, all of this is in some ways participation 630 00:44:40,119 --> 00:44:45,119 in the in the in the transfiguration, and so and that we're called to 631 00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:49,519 kind of hold these two things intention you know, one which is the self 632 00:44:49,599 --> 00:44:52,239 sacrifice, when which is the helping the poor, to care for those in 633 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:55,800 need, to kind of give ourselves, to empty ourselves for others. But 634 00:44:55,880 --> 00:45:02,159 then there's also the possibility and the importance of celebrating that glorious aspect where all 635 00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:08,719 creation comes together and celebrates God. And so to me, the image of 636 00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:14,320 the transfiguration as an artist is in some ways a guiding light to say, 637 00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:19,000 like, no, there is this possibility of participating in that. And like 638 00:45:19,079 --> 00:45:22,280 you said, gathering the elements, gathering bits of wood, bits of gold, 639 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:27,360 bits of stone, and being able to hopefully offer something up so that 640 00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:30,400 it participates in that process. Oh that's beautiful, John, And let me 641 00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:34,920 see if I heard what you're saying that for you and your vocation is to 642 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:39,320 be a liturgical artist. You make sculptures, you do design and iconographic that 643 00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:45,000 the image of the Transfiguration, the meaning of the feasts of the Transfiguration, 644 00:45:45,159 --> 00:45:49,320 in some ways is like it gives meaning to your vocation or gives inspiration that 645 00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,840 what you're doing as an icon carver and iconographer, you're taking created material and 646 00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:58,039 you're working with it and putting it together in ways that participate even further in 647 00:45:58,079 --> 00:46:00,320 the glory of God, and it gives meaning. Is that you hope like 648 00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:05,000 someone it's the anchor. It's it's it's it's part of the anchor of what 649 00:46:05,159 --> 00:46:07,239 makes the liturgical artists do what they do. At least for me, is 650 00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:12,559 this idea of kind of stewarting and gathering the materials and then creating an image 651 00:46:12,599 --> 00:46:15,639 that's kind of bringing creation back to God in an act of thanksgiving. I 652 00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:19,360 liked very much what you said that part of our calling as people of faith 653 00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:22,119 is to serve the poor and to care for the needy. But we're also 654 00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:25,519 called to gather and to co create with God and to make beautiful things that 655 00:46:25,599 --> 00:46:30,880 give glory, that that celebrate that so celebrate that lead us into this place 656 00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:36,639 of rejoicing and celebrating that God's presence has come into the world and therefore matter 657 00:46:37,119 --> 00:46:39,760 has been can be sanctified and can be gathered and brought back. I think 658 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:44,280 that goes beyond liturgical artists, right for any kind of location, For anyone 659 00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,039 working in the world, doing anything like this is so inspiring because otherwise, 660 00:46:47,519 --> 00:46:51,599 you know, then your faith and your work are just completely separate from each 661 00:46:51,639 --> 00:46:53,679 other. So that's that's a very inspiring message. Thank you. What about 662 00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:58,599 for you Aiden? As you're talking us, thinking perhaps of three things, 663 00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:04,800 face, unity, and matter. I think I sort of nominally raised an 664 00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,840 Anglican, but never really had a conscious faith that. When I was fifteen, 665 00:47:07,679 --> 00:47:10,599 I had a conversion experience. As this man was speaking about the faith. 666 00:47:10,639 --> 00:47:15,719 I saw a face full of light, but also there were there was 667 00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:19,280 a crowd behind, there were people behind, and this is what converted me. 668 00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:22,000 So it was the face of Christ, but also it wasn't just him 669 00:47:22,079 --> 00:47:27,639 isolated and that sort of ended my heart and I've sort of measured everything against 670 00:47:27,679 --> 00:47:30,519 that in a way. So when I countered the Transfiguration Icon, there you 671 00:47:30,599 --> 00:47:34,480 have it, the face of Christ, but not alone. But being an 672 00:47:34,599 --> 00:47:37,719 artist, I started off as a Baptist, which I really loved. I 673 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,119 got to know the scripture as well, but I felt mattage hasn't really got 674 00:47:40,159 --> 00:47:44,159 a place here the material world. It's sort of just not mentioned really, 675 00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:50,079 So my journey kept going. And when I discovered the icon tradition and the 676 00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:54,599 Orthodox affirmation of the material world. When I saw the Transfiguration Icon and started 677 00:47:54,639 --> 00:47:58,719 reading about the theology, I realized, Ah, now I've got the face 678 00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,519 of Christ, got the king to the church. Here's matter transfigured. You 679 00:48:01,599 --> 00:48:07,519 were describing this process of taking God given matter up and making it even more 680 00:48:07,639 --> 00:48:13,960 articulate than the worship of God. That artistic process here is all in the 681 00:48:14,039 --> 00:48:19,840 Transfiguration icons. That's why the idea of Christ's garment being cosmos means a lot 682 00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,559 so much to me. The garments aren't a raw flax. Someone has taken 683 00:48:22,639 --> 00:48:27,880 the flax, spun it, woven it. So here this idea of a 684 00:48:28,039 --> 00:48:31,199 man as prophet, priest and king, and I understand kingship. It's like 685 00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:36,679 an artist like Jonathan's got to be master of his stereotype when he's carving it, 686 00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:39,519 but he's not master to crush it and grind it. He is master 687 00:48:39,599 --> 00:48:44,960 of it to raise that hunk of inanimate stone to become the faith of Christ. 688 00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:49,960 So kingship to me is the kingship of an artist to make creation more 689 00:48:50,039 --> 00:48:52,880 articulate and the praise of God. So that's what the transfigation says for me. 690 00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:57,360 That's very inspiring. And I know we'll hear more from you on Priest, 691 00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:01,280 prophet and King in your lecture tomorrow at the PTS and Scholar Foundation conference. 692 00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:06,599 And you know, Jonathan, I wondered if you could just give us 693 00:49:06,679 --> 00:49:08,760 a few minutes, just a few words. Really, what are you speaking 694 00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:13,480 about tomorrow at the scholar friends like PTS. Well, actually it has a 695 00:49:13,559 --> 00:49:15,840 little bit to do with what we're saying. You know, there's something about 696 00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:21,360 especially modern, especially contemporary art, there's a sense in which the artist is 697 00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:24,119 there to question, right. The artist is there to to poke at the 698 00:49:24,199 --> 00:49:29,119 system and to try to break, you know, the structures that are there. 699 00:49:29,639 --> 00:49:34,639 And what I want to explore tomorrow is how traditional art and how especially 700 00:49:34,679 --> 00:49:37,440 liturgical art is in some ways there to celebrate and to bring together and to 701 00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:43,760 kind of build identities. And so we're going to look at that the dangers 702 00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:45,199 of that also, there are dangers in that, and so we're going to 703 00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:49,400 try to look at in scripture and how it all kind of comes together in 704 00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,800 the person of Christ and like most stories. So that's great. And you 705 00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:55,719 know, as I mentioned at the start, the Scholar Foundation's mission is to 706 00:49:55,760 --> 00:50:00,880 restore culture through liberal arts, education, beauty and worship. And this event 707 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:05,400 that I've put together this weekend is going to bring together artists with educators, 708 00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:09,199 with scholars to experience the beauty of the campus here at Princeton Theological Seminary, 709 00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:15,320 the University Chapel, Sacred Music. And I wondered if you could comment on 710 00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:17,039 what was it that attracted you to be a part of Scholar's mission. What 711 00:50:17,079 --> 00:50:21,559 do you find about Scholar's mission that made you interested in being a part of 712 00:50:21,639 --> 00:50:24,239 this. I think the world is hungry for exactly the things you mentioned. 713 00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:30,880 You know, people are heavy because the world is quite ugly, especially in 714 00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:34,000 America and Europe. You have more luck than we do, We have more 715 00:50:34,079 --> 00:50:37,800 chance than we do. The suburbs, this plastic world in which we live. 716 00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:40,880 And also this world of consuming I think it in some ways it's sad, 717 00:50:42,199 --> 00:50:46,239 but it also is a kind of hunger, and people are looking for 718 00:50:46,519 --> 00:50:50,920 meaning and looking for beauty, and so if we can help people move in 719 00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:54,239 that direction, it's wonderful. Great. Well. I would encourage everybody watching 720 00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:59,960 this to look at Aiden Hart's website aiden Heart Icons. They are beautiful images, 721 00:51:00,639 --> 00:51:04,840 wonderful essays. Please do check out his books Beauty Matter and the Sacred. 722 00:51:05,159 --> 00:51:07,159 Also his book Festal Icons, which was really zaty Spirit Matter, Beauty 723 00:51:07,199 --> 00:51:10,519 Spirit Matter. Excuse me, Beauty Spirit Matter. Thank you. His book 724 00:51:10,599 --> 00:51:15,239 Festal Icons was released just in twenty twenty two, Is that right? And 725 00:51:15,559 --> 00:51:21,079 his book on drawing icons are Techniques of Icon on Wall Painting Techniques of Icon 726 00:51:21,119 --> 00:51:24,320 and Wallpapers. It's the best book on painting icons that exist. I mean, 727 00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:28,840 I think it's pretty unanimous. So if you're interested in icons of that 728 00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:31,199 book is the book to get. If you enjoy these videos and podcasts, 729 00:51:31,519 --> 00:51:36,360 please go to the Symbolic world dot com website and see how you can support 730 00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:39,559 what we're doing. There are multiple subscriber tiers with perks. There are apparel 731 00:51:39,639 --> 00:51:43,960 and books to purchase, so go to the symbolic world dot com and thank 732 00:51:44,039 --> 00:51:45,199 you for your support.