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Hello friends, and welcome to the
Superhero Ethics Podcast. Today, I'm going

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to be talking about the Last of
Us Part two video game with Danielle Written

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the Star Wars and Professor Matthew Capelle. If you're look curious to do why

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we're doing this, it's because I
know that the Part two of the show

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is going to be coming out.
I know that I do not trust the

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Internet not to spoil me on the
things that happen in the game, which

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may or may not happen the show. But there's a good enough possibility that

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I knew I wanted to play the
game through, and I've done so,

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and there's a lot to talk about, and so we're presenting this as if

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you want to watch. If you
want to either play part two and or

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watch season two and not get spoiled, this is probably not for you.

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I'd suggest hitting pause then come back. If you've played Part two, great,

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If you haven't played Part two and
aren't planning to, but you want

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to know all about it to kind
of get ready for season two, then

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this is also for you. Or
if you've just in you don't care anything

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about this, but you're interested in
ethical conundrums and what happens in a post

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apocalyptic society. Because in a lot
of ways the last US Part two,

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the zombies are now just a plot
device, and we're just telling a great

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story about post apocalyptic revenge and vengeance
and family and how it all works.

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Then maybe this is the episode for
you. We'll we'll find out more right

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after this commercial break that we have
no control over, but if it's for

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any kind of global flower prot you
know, like like flower, like making

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bread, be careful. Welcome back
everyone to Matthew, your host. As

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I said all that at the end, Matthew was silently gesturing to himself and

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pointing to himself in regard to the
flower. I'll point out to Matthew that

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this is radio, not visual,
but that we will quite possibly be webcasting

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pretty soon, in which case that
will be awesome. But Matthew, with

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all that, let me ask you
introduce yourself and who you are and where

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you're coming from and what your experience
with this game has been. Sure,

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you know, just start with the
introduction and we'll get to the game.

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Sure. I was, by the
way, gesturing at my wife, who

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stuck her head in the drawer,
saying to say, I love you.

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So, Oh, it makes a
lot more sense now, it doesn't it.

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Hi, I'm Matthew Cappelle. I
teach at Pace University in Lower Manhattan,

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New York. Teach American studies and
anthropology and sometimes writing, and I

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also edit a book series for a
small press, academic press in the United

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States on game studies. So at
some point there will be a book on

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this game. I haven't found a
person who's going to do it for me,

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and I might have to do it
myself. But studies studies in gaming

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exists, and you can just google
it with my name and you will find

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it. And it's about fifty books
in it now, on everything from Paul

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of Duty to dungeons the dragons.
So it's awesome, and one day I

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think there should be a Matthew Fox
book quite possibly, quite possibly. I

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am currently under an NDA about all
things Wizard of the Coast given my time

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there, but I do I love
talking about the ethics of magic the gathering.

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I won't say anything about the collection
of cards that may or may not

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have been sent out improperly, though
I was surprised to learn that the Pinkerton's

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do quite literally still exist as wizards
of the Oh yeah again, I will

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talk off air about that one,
but yeah no, and I will say

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relevant to this as well. A
friend of mine is getting ready to start

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a D and D campaign, so
I was looking through the druid class because

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the druids were fun in the recent
D and D movie, even if they

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didn't properly show what a t fling
it looks like, and was reminded that

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there are many different, you know, kind of ways to be a druid

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in D and D, one of
which is the Way of Spores, and

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in this you are a druid who
has control over fungi and spores and can

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do things like at level six reanimate
a corpse with fungus. So you know,

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if you want to play the Last
of Us downe the Dragons, the

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rules are right there for you.
Danielle tells about about yourself. Yeah,

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I'm Danielle written in the Star Wars
on TikTok danny s three nine four on

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Twitter, and I'm also a PhD
researcher at the very end about to be

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about to finally officially have that doctor
title, So I'll be doctor Danielle.

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Very excited for that, and I
love the Last of Us, So excited

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to talk about it. Nice.
Nice, I always love it gathering where

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my master's degree in divinity and master's
degree in Sociology of Religion is completely outclassed

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by all of my guests. So
enjoy your academic debt and congrats on all

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of that. So awesome to have
you both here. And I will start

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by saying for those of you who
are patrons. At the end of the

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last time I had Danielle and Matthew
on, which is when we talked about

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Star Wars celebration over on the Star
Wars Unrouse podcast, I did a little

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bonus content where I talked about the
Last of Us video game, which I

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thought at that point I was about
halfway through, and I thought, you

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know what, let's just do a
little bit here and then well, when

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I finished the game another couple more
weeks, we'll get you back. Well,

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they both, as it's been the
running theme, did a very good

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job of not spoiling me that I
was like, one more big battle scene

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away from the end of the game, one more incredibly brutal battle scene away

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from the end of the game,
but nonetheless, so that's why we have

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them back so quick. And I'm
I'm really looking forward to this discussion because

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I do feel like the last of
us. I think it's easy to think

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of it as just a zombie to
show and game, and to some extent

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it is. But to some extent
we talked about this sum in our coverage

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of season one, but I think
even more in this one and here's we're

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kind of want to start the discussion. This really felt to me like the

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zombies were no longer a major part
of the story. They were a way

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to build tension, a way to
every now and then give you the play

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or a chance to press some buttons
and kill some things and use some weapons.

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But for the most part, the
story is now not at all about

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the zombies. It's about we're in
this post apocalyptic society. There is no

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sort of overall, you know,
system of law and order injustice, and

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you know, we can say if
that's a good thing or not. Maybe

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it's there's there's some definite advantages there, but the point is when people are

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wronged, all they can really do
is maybe try and go wrong the other

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people. And it felt to me
like this was it wasn't even any more

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about like huge governmental systems and the
Fireflies versus Federal or I think it's just

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about individual stories of revenge and how
we get caught in the cycles. Is

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that Is that kind of how you
took this took this game? Yeah,

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I think that when the show first
came out, or right before it came

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out, I was, you know, seeing a lot of people talk about

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how, you know, they were
kind of tired of you know, zombie

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stories, and like that was a
fad ten years ago. We're over it

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now, we don't really want to
get back into that. And I was

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trying to say that, you know, this isn't a zombie story. It's

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it's a love story, a story
about love in many different manifestations, including

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the negative aspects of love, including
the awful, horrible side effects of love

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that we don't like to often you
know, interrogate in ourselves. And it

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uses the zombies as a backdrop,
and it uses the infection as a you

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know, you know, something to
add a little bit of tension and an

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instigator to some of these forms of
love. But it's not about the zombies

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in the same way that or in
the way that The Walking Dead was like.

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And I know that all zombie media
is saying something deeper than just you

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know, zombies and infections. I
get that, but for the Last of

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Us, for me at least,
it feels like that is so much more

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apparent in this story than in a
story like The Walking Dead, at least

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the show version of it, or
you know, I Zombie or any of

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those other shows or movies. And
I think the second game really like kind

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of tries to get that through as
well. So unfortunately it's like Matthew's having

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some audio trouble. He's gonna hopefully
jump back in in just a few minutes,

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but then ye just pick up what
you're saying. Yeah, I think

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that's such a good way of putting
it in terms of how it feels like

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they were doing something so different.
And like, one thing I really noticed

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is from the game to the show, just there weren't very many zombies in

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season one, you know, and
I it made me remember that in the

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show. In a game, they're
popping up all the time. I don't

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think because it's supposed to be inherent
to the story, but because just that's

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the fun part of the games.
You're using the weapons to you know,

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kill all the zombies and stuff.
And I do think Professor Doctor Matthew Capella

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is rejoining us because we were just
talking about this idea of how and I'm

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curious your thoughts on this. You
and I have talked before on air about

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how there is really interesting imagery and
iconography around vampires versus zombies, and like

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how those represent different fears and stuff
like that, and in the other iur

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getting into the idea of how,
particularly by part two, the zombies don't

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seem to be a central theme anymore. They're now just kind of a plot

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device to create this apocalyptic everyone's out
for themselves in their little communities. There's

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no overarching society or government or justice
system. Where would you stand on those

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kind of ideas? Oh? Yeah, you know, the zombies are the

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spoonful of sugar to help the rest
of the narrative go down, really and

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they're just there to give you something
to shoot at in a non ethically difficult

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spot so that you can get to
the important parts. Yeah, yeah,

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I do think that there is an
aspect there of how the brutality of the

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fighting against the zombie is it is
so high and kind think how best to

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say this kind of a thought You've
triggered that like, there's something about it

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that it helps tell me that,
like when you're when your own For me,

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the idea of like brutally killing someone
is an incredibly difficult idea to think

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about, both just because you know
killing is wrong, but also just because

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it feels so like, I don't
know if I could make my muscles do

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those things, and I don't know
this is what you're getting at, Matt,

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but it feels like one of the
things that the game kind of helps

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to convey is that when for everybody, your daily existence is sometimes you have

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to take a baseball bat to the
head of what was a human being but

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as now a zombie, that that
kind of makes the brutality against other humans

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unfortunately easier to handle, or I
think you could reverse that. It allows

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you to see brutality in a way
that will make brutality against actual sentient beings

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harder to handle. You mean there
for the player, not the character.

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Yeah, for the player, not
the character. I think there's you know,

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I spent a lot of time killing
things on my PlayStation, as I

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think we all do, but I
tend to like pick games where the things

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I have to shoot at are not
other people, unless those people are wearing

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Nazi uniforms. So I kill a
lot of Nazis, I kill a lot

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of robots, and I kill a
lot of zombies. But I really don't

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like any game that requires me to
kill a lot of people. And I

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think Last of Us has zombies in
it just to welcome you to the notion

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that there's a game here, so
that people who might not want to think

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too hard yet we'll get the message
before they're done and go, well,

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shit, now I have to think
about stuff, right. I think that

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one other purpose the zombie aspect also, or rather there's a lot of debates

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about whether you can call them zombies
or if it's just like the infected whatever,

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but that the infection itself has for
the story, which is what is

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doing the most damage in this society
after it collapses, the infection or the

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people, and the infection is attacking
the people, yes, but the people

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are also attacking the people, and
it's you know, you're kind of stuck

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between a rock and a hard place
in that instance, because you know,

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there's there's no There are individual communities
that we see in this post apocalyptic society

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that have joined together and protect each
other, but that's not all of humanity

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that has done that, which is
like, can you expect that? Should

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you expect that? Or will there
always be differences? And will there always

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be splits between people that make them
go after each other? And I think

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that having that with a zombie infected
background is a really good kind of like,

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you know, there's this awful thing
that's happening, and yet we're still

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doing awful things to each other,
and which is the case in most of

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you know, human history that can
be seen outside of a zombie apocalypse as

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well. Definitely, let me give
it just a quick plot summary for those

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either who haven't played the game but
are curious, or who play the game

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some time ago and need to be
reminded. We're not gonna get too much

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into my new details of the plot, but this will hopefully give a kind

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of a broad sketch and I'm not
going to go linearly in the game just

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kind of hit the main ideas.
So we start with we're introduced to a

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new group of characters who are making
a journey, and there's a couple of

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them. Abby is kind of our
main point of view character who's this very

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strong, very woman. There's some
kind of a love triangle thing going on

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with her and this guy oh In
and this woman Mel, and we learned

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that Mel is pregnant and they're kind
of going on this journey, and we

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eventually realized that the journey that they're
going on is because is to go and

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kill Joel, Joel being one of
our hero characters, our main point of

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view character from part one. As
more of the story unfolds, we learned

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that Abby is the is the daughter
of the doctor, the doctor who was

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going to operate on Ellie and hopefully
cure the effectedness, and so this is

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for her revenge, you know,
and that on some level there's kind of

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a clear tension of that, on
some level, this is a thing they

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should be doing because this could have
saved the world, etcetera, etcetera.

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But really it's about her father and
her father's death and her getting revenge.

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And what I think is a very
important moment for that they don't take the

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group that goes to kill Joel doesn't
take Ellie with them, Like there's no

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sense of this being about we're going
to recapture Ellie so that we can try

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again to say the world, It
is just about dealing with Joel because of

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the terrible things he did. Abby
then find Ellie finds this out. Ellie

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now needs to now go on her
own revenge plot against Abbey, and we

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also find out that Ellie isn't kind
of a love triangle she is. She

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begins this relationship with another woman named
Dinah, and it's a wonderfully portrayed lesbian

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relationship, our sapphic relationship, so
happy that we get that, including a

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very erotic scene between the two of
them. We'll also get another erotic scene

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with Abbe that is not expecting a
video game. But again, you know,

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my days of Mario Kart and Zelda
are clearly I you know, I've

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grown up as a video games.
But so Ellie goes on her own her

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quest for revenge, in part because
Tommy already went as well and she's trying

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to go and help Tommy and then
Dina and the guy who Dina was with

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is named Jesse, So Ellie is
now dating Jesse's ex girlfriend. But the

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song Jesse's Girl is never mentioned by
any of the eighties music lovers in a

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game, which I think is a
horrible plot flaw. But that being said,

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I'll put that aside, they go
to Seattle. In Seattle, they

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find that there's this whole backstory of
the Western Liberation Front. A group called

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the Wolves took over the city from
Federa in as Danielle was kind of saying,

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a story that plays out again and
again and again in this world.

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The group that was fighting tyranny winds
up becoming tyrannical, so they're kind of

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ruling in a very tyrannical way.
Meanwhile, there's this other group of a

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religious group that's referred to as the
Scars by everyone else because they have scars

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on their face as a religious ritual
thing they do. Those two groups are

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kind of a war. Ellie gets
caught in the middle of that war,

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and we get to see both Ellie
and Abbey as they're making their way through

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this city. Through everything that's happening. Abby winds up befriending a member of

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that other group, a trans boy
named Lev, which again is a beautiful

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piece of representation the way it's done. Everybody's going on adventures and side quests,

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and sometimes zombies pop up, but
a lot of times it's humans who

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pop up. A lot of brutality
happens Eventually we get to a point where

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Ellie and Abbey have both killed most
of the people who are most important to

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each other. Owen has been killed, Tommy has been killed, Jesse has

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been killed. Dinah does survive,
wouldn't get you in a second. Tommy

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survives, just real quick. Tommy
doesn't die. Oh you're right. No,

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No, he's shot in a way
that looks like he's gonna die,

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but you're right. He does survive. And we get just this brutal battle

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between Abby and Ellie and my partner
Mary, who was the one actually playing

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the game and I'm just watching.
I'm not My hand eye coordination is just

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awful, and she was she kept
wanting to put the controller down. She's

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like, I hate fighting this fight. And there'd be times where like one

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of them would be knocked down and
then the fight would go on. She's

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like, why is it just done
yet? Why? Because it was just

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incredibly brutal. And so that fight
ends finally with Abby getting the upper hand

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but not killing Ellie and just saying
Ellie, this is over. You need

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to be done. Ellie goes back
and spends like a year and a half

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living this nice life with Dinah,
Dina, who was again Jesse's girl,

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but the song's never sung. I'm
not bitter about that. I promise she

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has a child. Jesse was the
biological father, but clearly her and Ellie

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are raising this child together and it's
the most lesbian Cottage Corps situation you've ever

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00:18:59.799 --> 00:19:06.359
seen scene. It's utterly beautiful.
It feels like an epilogue until Tommy turns

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up with news about where Abbey is
and we realized that Ellie needs to go

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on yet another revenge plot and it's
This was the point at which that I

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was talking to the two of them
in the Patreon We're both me and Mary

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were like, we don't want to
keep doing this. This is why is

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Ellie doing this? But Ellie still
has that need for the revenge. She

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tracks Abbey to Santa Barbara, where
we've been told the Fireflies now are so

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again like everything for both of us. We were because we kept thinking,

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Okay, the point is eventually that
Abbey and Ellie are going to team up,

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right, and that's when we'll get
back to the Fireflies plot. We'll

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get back to maybe Ellie will get
to have her what she's always wanted,

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which is to you know her life
to mean something. Along the way,

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she has found out all the terrible
things that Joel did at the end of

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Game one, season one of the
show, and she's clearly at him.

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She wishes that she had let him, that let it go forward, that

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she had died and her life would
have meeting. And there's all kinds of

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stuff wrapped up and that, obviously, but a lot of it's about her

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agency. And I think a big
part of why she has this need for

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revenge on for revenging Joel's death is
that he died with her still very mad

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at him, and obviously her feelings
are very mixed up about that, and

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it's a kind of like, well, I could sit and process my feelings,

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or I could beat up the person
who caused these feelings, and in

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this world that we're always going to
do option to be. She gets to

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Santa Barbara, there's more adventures.
Abby and Ellie have yet again another dragged

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down knockout fight. This time Ellie
gets the upper hand. This fight is

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even more brutal. Abby is about
to be killed and Ellie, eventually,

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just again thinking about Joel, thinking
about everything with him, decides to just

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let Abbie live and walk away,
and at which point Mary screamed at the

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TV, don't you dare make me
keep playing this game because we were so

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mad that it was just going to
be yet another Okay, but now someone

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else is going to go on on
avenge plot and then they're going to get

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together and work together. But no, they just and you just get to

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Ellie gets back to Jackson where everyone's
living, finds that Dina Dina has left

287
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her, and she finds Joel's guitar, plays it a little bit, thinks

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about Joel, and walks off into
the sunset, and that's the end of

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the game. Yeah, did I
miss any major plot stories? I would

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say that. I mean, we
can talk about this later because there's a

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whole, in my opinion, significance
behind it. But daring her last fight

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with Abby, Ellie loses two fingers
on the hand that she uses for the

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chords on the guitar, and so
when she's playing the song that Joel for

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her at the beginning of the game, she can't play it fully because she

295
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can't she's not used to being able
to play without those two fingers. And

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yeah, I'll admit we completely missed
that. Yeah, I think we are

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both so wracked up in brutality of
it all. But yeah, that makes

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sense, understandable. I've played this
game too many times. That's fair well,

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So let's start with I'm gonna add
something too, which is it's important

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to recognize that before that last fight
happens, essentially Abbey is being crucified.

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Yeah, yes, and she is. She's taken down from a post in

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which she is essentially being crucified,
and then the fight happens, and we

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have to remember what all of the
symbolism of the crucifixion is supposed to be

304
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about. But it's mostly supposed to
be about forgiveness, So that fight really

305
00:22:57.279 --> 00:23:06.039
operates around notions of can vengeance keep
going on? Yeah, yeah, we'll

306
00:23:06.079 --> 00:23:10.480
definitely get to that, But let
me just start with Abby, because in

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many ways I think this is one
of the most risky but powerful things the

308
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story does. Is you know,
we all fell in love with Joel in

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game one, part one. We're
all so angry at what he does at

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the end of season one, but
I think many people still love him,

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love his character and Ardanielle, You've
talked about him so much. Abby kills

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him and doesn't kill him in battle. He is lying knocked down on the

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ground and she beats his head in
I think with a golf club. How

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do we not hate Abby? What? Like? Because tell me about your

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journey about playing Abby, a character
who killed the character you loved so much.

316
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Oh, it was hard. I
remember when I first started playing.

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So when he first meet Abby is, as you said, you don't know

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who she is. You just know
that she's the stranger traveling and they see

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Jackson in the distance and they're looking
for this person, and you don't know

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who they're looking for, and you
go off with Abby, and I'm like,

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Okay, this is pretty cool.
I appreciate that there's, you know,

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a female character that you know surpasses, you know, typical stereo stereotypes

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of what a female character in video
games looks like. And so I appreciated

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that. I was a little suspicious
of her because I didn't know, like

325
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what was going on. Maybe she's
someone to team up with Ellie or something,

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I don't know. And then you
like slowly start to realize Joel helps

327
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Joel and Tommy help her, which
is the most heartbreaking part. It's so

328
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hard still to play. Every time
I play it is you're like, no,

329
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Joel, Tommy, just leave her. I don't want Abby to die,

330
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but maybe she can find a way
out herself. Just go away,

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don't tell her your name, And
that, to me, was one of

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the best ways they could have introduced
her, because you don't know yet.

333
00:25:04.279 --> 00:25:10.759
You have suspicions, but you have
no idea what Joel's relevance to her life

334
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is. And you still don't know. You you don't know until you get

335
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to her part halfway through the game, and then you go back and you

336
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are with her when she's fifteen years
old and Joel and Ellie arrive at the

337
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hospital and you slowly find out who
her father is, and you literally have

338
00:25:32.519 --> 00:25:36.759
to play out those scenes of Joel
killing everyone, but from her perspective.

339
00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:42.440
Yeah, And so I was when
they made the switch between Ellie and Abbey

340
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in Seattle. I was mad at
first. I was. I wasn't mad,

341
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:52.200
but I was like, they're really
going to make me play as this

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person who killed Joel, who not
only killed him, but, as he

343
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said, brutally murdered him in front
of Ellie. And I was absolutely not.

344
00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:03.920
I'm I don't know how I feel
about this. I haven't don't like

345
00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:07.359
put the controller down. I went
and told my boyfriend without any spoilers because

346
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he hadn't gotten to that part yet. I said, I think I might

347
00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:12.799
be mad. I think I might
not like where the game is going.

348
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He was like, really you,
And I said, yes, but I'm

349
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gonna I'm just gonna stop playing today
and then I'll go back tomorrow and we'll

350
00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:26.720
see how it goes. And slowly
they did such a good job of telling

351
00:26:26.759 --> 00:26:33.839
her story that slowly I began to
understand, and I allowed myself think it's

352
00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:36.799
so important to come to her story
with an as open of a mind as

353
00:26:36.839 --> 00:26:42.920
you can have, because you need
to question yourself of if I'm excusing what

354
00:26:44.039 --> 00:26:48.240
Ellie's doing right now, if I've
excused every death she's done, she's dealt,

355
00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:52.880
and the anger that she feels,
how can I not excuse Abby's or

356
00:26:52.920 --> 00:27:00.640
maybe not excuse it, but understand
it. Abby felt the same horror and

357
00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:07.079
anger and grief that Ellie felt.
If I'm going to understand Ellie's, how

358
00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:11.079
can I not understand Abby's? And
then I said this on the patroon last

359
00:27:11.079 --> 00:27:15.319
time we talked about this, but
the moment that I fell in love with

360
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Abby as a character, didn't just
accept her, didn't just you know,

361
00:27:19.039 --> 00:27:22.599
deal with her, but actually fell
in love with her. Character is when

362
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she tells Love, you're my people, after Love has lost his sister and

363
00:27:30.200 --> 00:27:33.440
is you know, has already lost
his community in the Seraphites because they've turned

364
00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:41.240
their backs on him because he's trans
has lost his family, and Abby has

365
00:27:41.240 --> 00:27:47.119
lost everything at this point too.
Abby says you're my people, and I

366
00:27:47.240 --> 00:27:49.359
just like that still gives me chills, It still makes me cry. And

367
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that was a moment where I's like, I love Abby. I'm never gonna

368
00:27:52.279 --> 00:27:56.640
not stick up for her because she
deserves the same understanding as Ellie does,

369
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and so many people in the Last
of Us and Them don't give her that

370
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just because she killed Joel. And
I feel like that line is so significant

371
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and this is something we'll get into
more, or maybe we can dive into

372
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it now, because one thing I'm
so struck buying the game is how every

373
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community loves each other and watches out
for each other, but is incredibly insular

374
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and views everybody else as potential enemies. And that there are all these times

375
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where Mary and I were almost joking
about it by the end because I'd be

376
00:28:33.319 --> 00:28:36.400
like, oh, yeah, I
want to learn more about the world.

377
00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:38.440
Oh the minute Allie gets close to
them, they start shooting at her.

378
00:28:38.759 --> 00:28:41.839
Oh I want to learn more about
the serif fight. Oh wait, the

379
00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:45.319
minute Abby gets close to them,
they start shooting. Like all of these

380
00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:49.160
groups have a shoot first, ask
questions later mentality, which to me feels

381
00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:56.319
very what I would thought it think
of as hobbsy in. But the professor

382
00:28:56.599 --> 00:29:00.559
has pointed out that my reading of
Thomas Hobbs thirty five years years ago or

383
00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:03.480
thirty years ago is perhaps not the
best remember it, but but just this

384
00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:11.599
idea of that it's it's looking I'm
looking for the right word, But it's

385
00:29:11.599 --> 00:29:17.039
just that this idea that everybody is
in their own little community is and views

386
00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:21.480
everyone else as a threat, which
is, you know, unfortunately very much

387
00:29:21.480 --> 00:29:23.480
a reflection of our own world,
but just taken to even more of an

388
00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:27.920
extreme. And so that actually for
her to say that it's not just hey,

389
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you you're a person, you're my
family. I am from this one

390
00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:34.599
community, you're from the other community, and I'm seeing you as my family.

391
00:29:36.319 --> 00:29:38.759
That's the boundary breaking moment that no
one else in this world seems to

392
00:29:38.759 --> 00:29:47.400
be able to do. Yeah,
the The thing about zombie narratives is they're

393
00:29:47.400 --> 00:29:52.039
almost never about the zombies, right. The thing about zombie narratives is they're

394
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almost always about how horrible humans can
be to other humans. And you can

395
00:29:56.759 --> 00:30:02.279
pick any zombie story going back the
early nineteen seventies now and you kind of

396
00:30:02.319 --> 00:30:06.160
get that unless it's like a zombie
or something which is a little bit more

397
00:30:06.200 --> 00:30:11.480
comedic. Here, this is the
one moment, Danielle is so right,

398
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This is the one moment where it
undermines every other zombie narrative you've ever experienced.

399
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I mean, it's not just like, here's the point of this game.

400
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It's like, here's what this game
is saying about every other zombie story

401
00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:33.400
you have ever thought about. And
that's what makes it really an emotionally wreck

402
00:30:33.640 --> 00:30:38.799
of a moment right well, and
matview, especially for you as someone who

403
00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:42.279
studied games. You know, it's
interesting because a lot of people who I

404
00:30:42.279 --> 00:30:48.200
know who really love video games often
either love or hate this game because one

405
00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:51.440
thing they often talk about is that
the great, the great part of video

406
00:30:51.480 --> 00:30:55.799
games as a form of media is
how much control it gives you the player.

407
00:30:56.640 --> 00:30:59.279
Whereas this one, we'll talk We've
talked a little bit about the reasons

408
00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:02.200
for this, we'll talk about about
them. But as we've all said,

409
00:31:02.279 --> 00:31:03.720
like, there are these things that
we the player don't want to do,

410
00:31:04.119 --> 00:31:07.480
but you're not given an option.
There's no other dialogue option, there's no

411
00:31:07.519 --> 00:31:11.079
other choice. Where does this kind
of fit for you in terms of other

412
00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:17.839
video game narratives where there is so
little choice on behalf of the player of

413
00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:22.119
what happens next. The fact that
there's so little choice is kind of the

414
00:31:22.200 --> 00:31:26.839
point, right, I mean,
both games. Both games function in a

415
00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:30.640
way that if you're going to finish
the game as the player, you eventually

416
00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:33.480
are going to have no choice but
to do something you really don't want to

417
00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:41.000
do. The way the first game
ends is you spend a lot of time

418
00:31:41.079 --> 00:31:42.680
in a hospital going I don't want
to be doing this. I don't want

419
00:31:42.680 --> 00:31:45.880
to be doing this, I don't
want to be doing this, and then

420
00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:48.400
the game is over and then you
lie, and then the game is over,

421
00:31:49.039 --> 00:31:55.359
right, and the second game takes
that and just keeps doing it.

422
00:31:56.119 --> 00:31:59.559
At no point do you want to
do the thing you're doing? I think,

423
00:32:00.680 --> 00:32:06.680
and so I think the genius of
this particular narrative is by forcing players

424
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:14.079
to play abbey it really drives home
the point that these are games about not

425
00:32:14.200 --> 00:32:22.119
having choice, which makes it powerful
in a game narrative sense. Most open

426
00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:23.960
world games, and I'm not a
big fan of open world games because they

427
00:32:23.960 --> 00:32:27.519
tend to be like, go find
this plan, to go find that plan.

428
00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:36.519
Most games give you lots of choice, and then programmers and publicity people

429
00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:40.240
let game companies go. You have
so much you can do, And the

430
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:45.519
purpose of these games is to show
you that in real life sometimes you don't

431
00:32:45.559 --> 00:32:49.799
have choice, and that might be
a thing we need to think about.

432
00:32:50.839 --> 00:32:53.680
So the first game is, you
know, the overarching thing we always say

433
00:32:53.720 --> 00:32:58.559
about the first game is it's about
the positive inegment aspects of love. This

434
00:32:58.599 --> 00:33:05.920
game is exclusively about revenge. Yeah, and revenge is almost never positive.

435
00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:12.119
Yeah. I one thing I like
about it because I do. We talked

436
00:33:12.200 --> 00:33:15.839
as time also about you know,
the Cassandra aspect of this and how the

437
00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:19.400
player is Cassandra because we know what
they shouldn't be doing, but we are

438
00:33:19.480 --> 00:33:23.519
forced to watch it happen anyway and
partake in it happening anyway. But one

439
00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:29.599
thing I think is so interesting when
it it forces you to do things you

440
00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:35.039
don't want to do to characters you
end up liking, but it gives you

441
00:33:35.079 --> 00:33:42.680
the choice on how you maneuver through
the through the what are they called the

442
00:33:42.759 --> 00:33:47.720
NPC's how you maneuver through them in
the hospitals, out in the you know,

443
00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:52.359
the neighborhoods and everything. Because you
don't have to kill everybody you come

444
00:33:52.400 --> 00:33:57.079
across. There are some instances you
can completely sneak through. Depending on your

445
00:33:57.119 --> 00:34:01.039
skill level. Of course, a
playing you can sneak through some of these

446
00:34:01.079 --> 00:34:07.319
neighborhoods. I've seen playthroughs where in
the neighborhood where there's the most people that

447
00:34:07.359 --> 00:34:12.679
Ellie has to get through, there's
people and dogs everywhere. I've seen playthroughs

448
00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:15.440
of people completely sneaking their way through
and they don't kill a single person,

449
00:34:15.519 --> 00:34:22.159
a single animal. And I think
that that's so interesting because there are only

450
00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:23.960
a few, like you want to
call them, like canon deaths, deaths

451
00:34:23.960 --> 00:34:29.199
that have to happen for the narrative. It's up to you how you progress

452
00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:32.639
through the rest of it. And
I think that makes the choice there so

453
00:34:32.719 --> 00:34:37.480
much more meaningful when we don't have
the choice elsewhere, because then it's like

454
00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:42.239
you're you're okay with killing all of
these people, but you're not okay with

455
00:34:42.360 --> 00:34:45.840
killing this person or trying to kill
this person, and we're going to make

456
00:34:45.880 --> 00:34:49.079
you do that. Why are you
okay with one but not with the other?

457
00:34:49.679 --> 00:34:52.639
And I think that that's a really
interesting, like philosophical question that they

458
00:34:52.719 --> 00:34:57.840
ask. That they don't expect every
player to catch on too, I think,

459
00:34:57.880 --> 00:35:00.880
but it is there if you want
to wonder about it, Like it's

460
00:35:00.920 --> 00:35:05.599
possible to not kill everybody, but
sometimes you do. And sometimes it's not

461
00:35:05.679 --> 00:35:10.079
just because it's easier having to kill
the dogs. But my other partner was

462
00:35:10.159 --> 00:35:14.119
visiting at one point while we were
playing the game, and we just had

463
00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:17.199
to stop because for her, like
watching and killing the dog there a thing

464
00:35:17.239 --> 00:35:21.679
we could do and understandably, yeah, because there's some of them are dogs

465
00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:28.239
you really come to know like,
and to me, there's such an there's

466
00:35:28.239 --> 00:35:30.280
a couple of points there, but
I want to start with this one.

467
00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:35.440
There's such an interesting message here about
our complicity in systems of violence and systems

468
00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:37.960
of vengeance and all this kind of
thing, because it's the you know,

469
00:35:40.360 --> 00:35:44.920
I think there's an awful lot of
truth, but an awful lot of moral

470
00:35:45.639 --> 00:35:49.840
it's very awesome morally easy to say, oh, they're just claiming they were

471
00:35:49.880 --> 00:35:53.400
following orders they should have disobeyed.
That they're totally wrong, And I don't

472
00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:57.480
get me wrong, I do I
don't think I was just following orders is

473
00:35:57.519 --> 00:36:01.079
ever an excuse. But I think
one of the things that we can often

474
00:36:01.119 --> 00:36:07.119
forget is how much you know in
a horrible situation where it feels like your

475
00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:12.440
choices have been far more limited and
again, kind of as you were saying,

476
00:36:12.639 --> 00:36:15.519
Danny, all, actually that's a
perfect example. Sometimes they are very

477
00:36:15.559 --> 00:36:19.840
limited, or sometimes just because of
the world you've grown up in, it's

478
00:36:19.880 --> 00:36:22.519
hard to see any other option except
killing the people there. You know that

479
00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:25.039
the idea you can do something it's
hard for you to even to occur to

480
00:36:25.079 --> 00:36:30.039
you. There's such a powerful lesson
here about how easy it is yet to

481
00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:35.360
just become complicit and either to think, oh, it's not my fault because

482
00:36:35.400 --> 00:36:38.000
I had no choice, or I
hate myself because I had to do this,

483
00:36:38.079 --> 00:36:40.119
you know, I mean, there's
just there's so many ways to go

484
00:36:40.199 --> 00:36:45.280
with it. But it really it's
what I like about the games. It's

485
00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:47.480
not hitting you over the head with
here's the lesson. It's here's this hard

486
00:36:47.559 --> 00:36:51.559
question that these characters have to wrestle
with and by the way, player now

487
00:36:51.599 --> 00:37:00.679
you do too, which is why
a lot of really intense young men hate

488
00:37:00.760 --> 00:37:07.719
this game. Yea, yeah.
I also because it doesn't just let you

489
00:37:07.800 --> 00:37:10.079
go kill everybody, have fun pressing
the buttons and kill everybody with immunity,

490
00:37:10.840 --> 00:37:16.360
and it doesn't let you recreate a
hero narrative, hero narrative in your head,

491
00:37:17.639 --> 00:37:24.079
and man, we really love hero
narratives, right, and this game

492
00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:30.239
is very much like there aren't heroes
and there aren't villains, and there's context

493
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:36.400
for everybody. And I don't know
if say, sixteen year old me would

494
00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:39.960
have found that acceptable. So I
have a hard time judging people who really

495
00:37:39.960 --> 00:37:45.920
hate this game unless they're being toxic
online about it, because I can totally

496
00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:51.440
see where they're coming from. Yeah, the beauty of games in general tends

497
00:37:51.480 --> 00:37:53.760
to be that we allow people to
be a hero finally, instead of just

498
00:37:53.880 --> 00:37:58.880
read about them or watch them in
a movie. And here you don't get

499
00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:02.559
that. Yeah, I think it's
I think it's interesting also to see the

500
00:38:02.760 --> 00:38:09.679
different ways that I see men and
women react to this game, because one

501
00:38:09.760 --> 00:38:15.519
of the biggest complaints amongst the like
women and film fan base for this about

502
00:38:15.559 --> 00:38:22.880
part one is that Ellie I wouldn't
say she's too dimensional in Part one by

503
00:38:22.920 --> 00:38:27.079
any means, but she is.
How much you learn about her is dependent

504
00:38:27.119 --> 00:38:30.880
on how much you pay attention to
her as a player, and because you

505
00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:36.239
only you're only playing as her for
a short time, and all of the

506
00:38:36.280 --> 00:38:39.119
other interactions between her and jol are
a lot of them are dependent on you

507
00:38:39.199 --> 00:38:44.760
pressing that green triangle to instigate conversation
between them, to instigate dialogue. And

508
00:38:44.840 --> 00:38:49.840
one of the most refreshing aspects of
the show was that it forced that dialogue,

509
00:38:50.360 --> 00:38:52.519
not in a bad way. It's
not like they forced it upon you,

510
00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:54.519
but they made it a part of
the story, and that you didn't

511
00:38:54.559 --> 00:38:58.199
have an option to skip over it. You didn't have an option to ignore

512
00:38:58.239 --> 00:39:01.440
her. To watch her story play
through, you had to learn about her.

513
00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:07.719
And Part two, which I want
to state, was co written with

514
00:39:07.719 --> 00:39:12.239
a woman. I can't remember what
her name is, but Neil Druckman co

515
00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:15.480
wrote this with a woman, and
I think that that is very evident and

516
00:39:15.639 --> 00:39:22.559
very responsible of him, because the
two main characters are women. And I

517
00:39:22.639 --> 00:39:30.519
like the fact that you know this
game respected the fact that maybe sometimes a

518
00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:35.760
female writer knows just a little bit
more about how a female character would react

519
00:39:35.800 --> 00:39:37.639
in these situations, or how they
should be portrayed, how they should be

520
00:39:37.639 --> 00:39:45.280
written. And Part two has so
many more female fans, I think than

521
00:39:45.400 --> 00:39:51.119
Part one, just because of how, you know, we're with Ellie most

522
00:39:51.159 --> 00:39:54.000
of the time, we're with Abby
most of the time, and there's such

523
00:39:54.039 --> 00:40:00.000
a I don't know, a feminine
quality to the way that they're disagreement,

524
00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:07.280
the way that their vengeance against each
other exists. It's not the same as

525
00:40:07.639 --> 00:40:13.119
Joel going after some other guy.
It's you know, it's it's not the

526
00:40:13.159 --> 00:40:16.079
same if it was Joel versus David, for example. Um, it's something

527
00:40:16.119 --> 00:40:21.360
different. It's there's more emotion to
it. There's more of a subtlety to

528
00:40:21.480 --> 00:40:27.320
it. And I appreciate that so
much, and I know that. I

529
00:40:27.400 --> 00:40:30.119
just I like that they took that
turn for this game. And I know

530
00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:35.639
that a lot of a lot of
men onlines and to have issues with that,

531
00:40:36.039 --> 00:40:38.480
But I just wanted to point out
too that I wanted to stay back

532
00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:43.280
when we were talking about Abby that
UM, like, kudos to Laura Bailey

533
00:40:43.360 --> 00:40:46.559
who is the voice actress for her, because a lot of Abby is her

534
00:40:46.639 --> 00:40:53.760
voice and is just how much Laura
Bailey puts into that emotion when Abby speaking,

535
00:40:55.159 --> 00:40:59.840
Yeah, Hallie Gross by the way, I think I'm h A L

536
00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:02.400
L E y. So I don't
think it's Haley but with Halle, but

537
00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:07.760
Halle Gross is the is the writer
here. Mention the gender aspect that Danielle

538
00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:13.719
brings up, I think is a
really good one because it really does what

539
00:41:13.880 --> 00:41:20.079
she's saying in that regard. In
the first game. One of the things

540
00:41:20.079 --> 00:41:22.079
that people say about the first game, and that Neil Druckman has said,

541
00:41:22.199 --> 00:41:28.239
is he likes to watch people's reaction
at the moment in which they realize they're

542
00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:31.480
playing Ellie finally and they're like,
oh my god, I'm playing Ellie.

543
00:41:32.440 --> 00:41:37.440
But that whole chunk of the game
and all of the second game, both

544
00:41:37.480 --> 00:41:43.320
of them remind me very much of
this old Margaret Atwood quote, which I've

545
00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:46.800
always really liked. Margaret Atwood once
said she's the woman who wrote The Handmaid's

546
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:53.760
Tale. Once said men are afraid
that women will laugh at them, and

547
00:41:53.960 --> 00:42:01.719
women are afraid that men will kill
them. Yeah, And when when Ellie

548
00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:06.960
is fighting David, it's it's that
quote to me, And this whole second

549
00:42:06.960 --> 00:42:09.960
game is very much that quote to
me. So yeah, I think I

550
00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:15.679
think it's a really good point to
say that Truckman was very smart to bring

551
00:42:15.719 --> 00:42:21.440
out a co writer who who was
not another guy. Yeah right right,

552
00:42:21.559 --> 00:42:28.599
Yeah, I am I going off
of that. This isn't exactly related,

553
00:42:28.679 --> 00:42:35.599
but it kind of is because a
big part of what Part two asks the

554
00:42:35.679 --> 00:42:45.480
players to consider is the fact that
Ellie has had one very important figure in

555
00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:49.239
her life, probably the one.
She's had multiple important figures in her life,

556
00:42:49.239 --> 00:42:51.880
but one that goes above the rest
of them, and that's Joel.

557
00:42:52.440 --> 00:42:58.639
And he is a violent man.
He loves Ellie with everything he has,

558
00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:06.519
but he is a violent man,
and he has passed on that propensity for

559
00:43:06.679 --> 00:43:13.280
violence to her through his love.
And it's such a complicated thing when the

560
00:43:13.360 --> 00:43:17.760
person who teaches you the most about
about love and family also teaches you the

561
00:43:17.800 --> 00:43:22.840
most about violence and vengeance. And
I think you get the two mixed up

562
00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:28.440
in your mind. You get them. How do you love someone without seeking

563
00:43:28.519 --> 00:43:31.559
revenge for them? How do you
love someone without getting so angry when they're

564
00:43:31.559 --> 00:43:37.079
taking from you that you take out
an entire city? How do you do

565
00:43:37.159 --> 00:43:39.880
that? And I think that a
large part in like Ellie's mind is her

566
00:43:39.920 --> 00:43:45.039
trying to come to terms with that
as well. Is that the way that

567
00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:51.480
Joel showed his love for her before
Jackson was through violence, and maybe a

568
00:43:51.519 --> 00:43:54.599
part of her feels like she's not
because she was already mad at him when

569
00:43:54.639 --> 00:43:59.760
he died, that she's not showing
him enough love if she's not showing enough

570
00:44:00.039 --> 00:44:04.719
violence. And I think that that
that has always been a question in my

571
00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:07.400
mind of it, is that it's
such a difficult thing when those two things

572
00:44:07.440 --> 00:44:13.400
overlap. Yeah, I think I
think there's there's so much truth there because,

573
00:44:14.519 --> 00:44:21.039
first of all, like the game
shows us two First of all,

574
00:44:21.079 --> 00:44:24.440
the fact that Ellie's remembering primarily two
things that Joel did, one of which,

575
00:44:24.440 --> 00:44:27.880
as you said, is the violence
and all of that, the others

576
00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:31.039
his guitar playing. And I feel
like that is there's a real important thing

577
00:44:31.039 --> 00:44:34.880
of what she's doing. She's trying
to balance those two ideas of love.

578
00:44:35.440 --> 00:44:38.239
And I never really thought about it
this way but until you what you just

579
00:44:38.239 --> 00:44:42.519
said, But I think it's so
true. I think there's a way in

580
00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:50.159
which her going on this revenge quest
is somewhat her forgiving Joel for what he

581
00:44:50.199 --> 00:44:54.760
did, because it's her recognizing that
Joel that as much as she hated what

582
00:44:54.880 --> 00:45:00.239
he did. He did that out
of his love for her. But as

583
00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:04.199
we've said that, the whole point
is that his love for her became incredibly

584
00:45:04.199 --> 00:45:08.239
destructive, and now her love for
him is becoming destructive. And I'm so

585
00:45:08.239 --> 00:45:10.519
glad you pointed out the thing about
the fingers, because, like I said,

586
00:45:10.519 --> 00:45:15.199
I missed it, because now I'm
turned up just thinking about it,

587
00:45:15.480 --> 00:45:20.800
because what you get is her attempt
to love in the way he tried to

588
00:45:20.880 --> 00:45:27.000
love violently now means she can't love
in the way he did peacefully in terms

589
00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:30.440
of guitar playing, And like that
alone is just such a beautiful message there.

590
00:45:31.599 --> 00:45:35.800
Remember that in the first game,
one of the key moments is when

591
00:45:35.800 --> 00:45:42.920
Ellie says, everybody I've ever loved
has either died or left me. Yeah,

592
00:45:43.320 --> 00:45:51.599
so it's it's the perfect setup for
anger. Yeah I am. I

593
00:45:51.639 --> 00:45:54.719
also really love one thing I have
come to accept. I think I played

594
00:45:54.719 --> 00:46:00.519
this game about six or seven times, and I learned something different every time

595
00:46:00.679 --> 00:46:02.440
I play it. I come to
a different understanding every time I play it,

596
00:46:02.960 --> 00:46:09.400
And my most recent play through,
my understanding of it was that because

597
00:46:09.400 --> 00:46:15.159
there's there's a there's a specific scene
at the end when Ellie is about to

598
00:46:15.239 --> 00:46:20.840
kill Abby. Abbey's about to drown
under her hands. Um. She has

599
00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:24.639
a brief memory of Joel and it's
just like two seconds of him playing the

600
00:46:24.679 --> 00:46:30.000
guitar on the porch. And we
learned later that that memory is from after

601
00:46:30.039 --> 00:46:31.639
the dance, when Joel, you
know, stuck up for her and she

602
00:46:31.679 --> 00:46:36.280
got mad at him. And they're
about too They're about to have the beginning

603
00:46:36.400 --> 00:46:43.920
of their amends that will never happen. And I've always wondered why that scene

604
00:46:44.400 --> 00:46:47.280
at this moment, why that memory
at this moment, because those memories are

605
00:46:47.719 --> 00:46:51.800
very tied to the narrative there.
They're where they are for a reason,

606
00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:55.599
and um, but it's just this
one's not a full flashback. It's just

607
00:46:55.679 --> 00:47:00.280
two seconds of Joel playing the guitar, and what about it is significant to

608
00:47:00.320 --> 00:47:06.320
that moment. And I've always thought
that Ellie never had a parental figure in

609
00:47:06.360 --> 00:47:09.599
her life until Joel. She didn't
know what it was like to be a

610
00:47:09.679 --> 00:47:15.039
child to somebody, shouldn't know what
it was like to have a parent constantly

611
00:47:15.119 --> 00:47:22.400
there and loving her unconditionally. And
she can understand that that's what's happening,

612
00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:27.000
or except that that's what's happening without
truly understanding the depths of it. And

613
00:47:27.039 --> 00:47:32.719
I think that it wasn't that win. Joel told her that he would take

614
00:47:32.760 --> 00:47:37.199
her being angry at him all over
again. If it meant saving her life,

615
00:47:37.880 --> 00:47:39.159
he would do it. He would
do it all over again, even

616
00:47:39.199 --> 00:47:45.920
knowing the consequences. That in that
moment, she began to understand that he

617
00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:50.760
loved her unconditionally. And then it
wasn't until she was about to kill Abby

618
00:47:50.800 --> 00:47:53.800
that she realized he loved me so
much to do those things, to give

619
00:47:53.840 --> 00:47:58.079
me another life, to give me
a second chance at life. And this

620
00:47:58.159 --> 00:48:00.840
is what I've done with it.
This is what I've done. Yeah,

621
00:48:00.880 --> 00:48:07.360
I've nearly gotten myself killed. I've
killed all these people. And I think

622
00:48:07.440 --> 00:48:10.440
she starts to realize that Joel wouldn't
want that for her, even if he

623
00:48:10.480 --> 00:48:15.599
would do the exact same thing.
And I think that that's a very powerful

624
00:48:15.679 --> 00:48:21.480
message, and that that's her finally
coming to an understanding of if I kill

625
00:48:21.719 --> 00:48:23.880
this person, what will that do. It won't bring him back. It'll

626
00:48:23.920 --> 00:48:29.400
just have been another waste of a
life that he never wanted me to do.

627
00:48:30.079 --> 00:48:32.559
And that, like that was my
understanding this last time. I can't

628
00:48:32.559 --> 00:48:37.880
wait to see what else I can
do on my next play through, and

629
00:48:37.880 --> 00:48:39.519
then also keeps me into another part
of it, which is that because one

630
00:48:39.519 --> 00:48:43.239
of the other things that happens,
not in that flashback, but very tied

631
00:48:43.360 --> 00:48:47.800
up to them, is Joel being
very clear that he is happy for Ellie

632
00:48:47.960 --> 00:48:53.039
with Dina, you know, and
that I think that's also a part of

633
00:48:53.079 --> 00:48:57.800
it, because I think one of
the things that's happening, you know,

634
00:48:58.559 --> 00:49:01.320
Dina doesn't specifically say if you go
to Santa Barbara, I'm going to leave

635
00:49:01.360 --> 00:49:05.559
you, but she makes it like
when we get back in DNA, isn't

636
00:49:05.559 --> 00:49:08.519
there anymore? No one is surprised. I think dNaM is very clear that,

637
00:49:08.559 --> 00:49:10.599
like, I really don't want you
doing this. I'm not okay with

638
00:49:10.679 --> 00:49:14.760
you doing this. And so I
think that's another part, Like is that

639
00:49:14.800 --> 00:49:16.880
like that's you know, one part
of what Joel wanted for her was to

640
00:49:16.920 --> 00:49:21.320
have more family and her realizing that, and I think that's part of the

641
00:49:21.360 --> 00:49:24.239
acceptance at the end, is that
like, yeah, that like my,

642
00:49:24.239 --> 00:49:28.639
my, my, going on one
more of these revenge quests lost me that

643
00:49:28.960 --> 00:49:36.400
and yeah, it just it all
ties together so well to a certain extent.

644
00:49:36.440 --> 00:49:38.320
I think a lot of the second
game is built around the flashbacks,

645
00:49:39.079 --> 00:49:45.039
that that if you were just to
string together the flashbacks, you'd have a

646
00:49:45.039 --> 00:49:49.400
pretty good story just with them.
Yeah, and for me, the one

647
00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:52.199
that Okay, so I'm a space
nerd. Part of my PhD was on

648
00:49:52.320 --> 00:50:00.719
NASA. But man, that science
museum moment where she listens to the launch

649
00:50:00.760 --> 00:50:08.719
of Apollo eleven is the most strikingly
hopeful moment in both games, that there

650
00:50:09.000 --> 00:50:16.400
was this moment where humanity could have
done so much and now we wander the

651
00:50:16.440 --> 00:50:22.400
world killing zombies in each other.
I'm glad that's your science geek moment because

652
00:50:22.440 --> 00:50:24.679
for me, when I was a
kid, I wanted to be a marine

653
00:50:24.679 --> 00:50:28.320
biologist because I wanted to be one
of the people who worked with the whales

654
00:50:28.320 --> 00:50:30.440
in the Dolphin And so I got
that kind of feeling all the stuff in

655
00:50:30.480 --> 00:50:35.639
the aquarium and just that sense of
like, look where humanity used to be

656
00:50:35.639 --> 00:50:39.960
in Look leave walls. Yeah,
so I go oh, I was just

657
00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:45.840
gonna say. I also really love
in that moment. Two things. One

658
00:50:45.400 --> 00:50:49.800
is that we can see how Joel
is looking at Ellie, but she doesn't

659
00:50:49.840 --> 00:50:52.400
see how he's looking at her because
her eyes are closed, and he's told

660
00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:54.480
her to close her eyes so she
can imagine this, and that plays into

661
00:50:54.519 --> 00:51:00.199
the whole her not truly understanding the
depths of Joel's love for her until it's

662
00:51:00.239 --> 00:51:06.000
too late, but then also the
absolute power of and I had I've only

663
00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:10.320
just now thought of this Ellie's obsession
being space and this peaceful moment being in

664
00:51:10.400 --> 00:51:15.280
this museum with Joel talking about space
and expere listening to the tape and everything,

665
00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:20.480
which space is above, and Abby's
being in the aquarium, which is

666
00:51:20.559 --> 00:51:24.320
about the ocean, which is,
you know, the direct opposite of that,

667
00:51:24.840 --> 00:51:29.800
and that parallel, Like I had
never realized that until just now hearing

668
00:51:29.840 --> 00:51:36.000
you say, like the parallel between
you and doctor Matthew. But I just

669
00:51:36.039 --> 00:51:40.039
absolutely love that. Now good something
new every time I'm telling you, right,

670
00:51:40.719 --> 00:51:43.440
I think that's so true, And
honestly, I think that's one of

671
00:51:43.480 --> 00:51:47.079
the most brilliant parts of this whole
game, is the way that you know

672
00:51:47.320 --> 00:51:50.320
most of the time. And Matthew, you were kind of saying this the

673
00:51:50.320 --> 00:51:52.960
beginning in terms of like, if
we want to be comfortable killing people,

674
00:51:53.280 --> 00:51:57.440
we make them robots who make them
zombies, or often we make them coded

675
00:51:57.440 --> 00:51:59.880
as people of color, or you
know, aliens who look like people of

676
00:52:00.039 --> 00:52:02.920
color, see the Avengers and the
Tutari and all the research about that,

677
00:52:04.800 --> 00:52:08.280
and so having all these situations where
not only are you having to vote,

678
00:52:09.079 --> 00:52:14.079
not only like we have one character
who sees the other as completely all they

679
00:52:14.119 --> 00:52:19.280
see is the person who killed my
father or the person who who killed my

680
00:52:19.360 --> 00:52:22.639
father figure, or any of these
things. I mean, they're both dealing

681
00:52:22.679 --> 00:52:25.039
with the death of a father figure, but now we know. But we

682
00:52:25.199 --> 00:52:30.039
the player have to play both of
them and we have to see those connections.

683
00:52:30.679 --> 00:52:34.480
The one that I know Mary kept
focusing on my partner was how they're

684
00:52:34.480 --> 00:52:39.519
both collectors. You know, Abbey
is collecting coins and Ellie is collecting these

685
00:52:39.559 --> 00:52:44.199
comic book cards and all sorts of
stuff like that, and that alone it's

686
00:52:44.239 --> 00:52:49.559
just you know, I if you
listen to old Superhero Ethics episodes, one

687
00:52:49.559 --> 00:52:52.320
of the things I absolutely love is
is villains who aren't just mustache toilers,

688
00:52:52.360 --> 00:52:55.239
but we get their backstory, you
know, and that Batman has been very

689
00:52:55.239 --> 00:52:59.400
good at this for a long time, and this, to me is doing

690
00:52:59.400 --> 00:53:02.239
that to the point of you know, there's the old adage of everyone's a

691
00:53:02.280 --> 00:53:06.239
hero in their own story. That's
exactly what this is though, it's that

692
00:53:06.599 --> 00:53:08.000
there is no easy way to see
who's a hero of a villain. It's

693
00:53:08.039 --> 00:53:12.639
just who whose point of view are
you playing that's going to inform who you

694
00:53:12.639 --> 00:53:16.639
think is the villain. Yeah.
Absolutely, The collecting aspect is such a

695
00:53:16.719 --> 00:53:24.079
humanizing part of them because Abby's is
because that was her dad's obsession and she

696
00:53:24.239 --> 00:53:30.679
carried that on after him. Because
I don't think she collected them until that

697
00:53:30.199 --> 00:53:34.519
scene that we see. You don't
see like any extras in her bag at

698
00:53:34.519 --> 00:53:37.800
the time, but I think that, you know, that just adds so

699
00:53:37.880 --> 00:53:40.519
much to it, Like Ellie has
her comic book thing, which has so

700
00:53:40.639 --> 00:53:45.639
much more weight to it. I
think in the aspect of the show.

701
00:53:45.719 --> 00:53:49.599
Now if they do keep the comic
book card thing in the show too.

702
00:53:51.159 --> 00:53:53.480
But yeah, it's it's just another
parallel between them that, as you said,

703
00:53:53.800 --> 00:53:59.760
this game does so well, so
I think it's possible that Danielle is

704
00:53:59.760 --> 00:54:09.840
a genius. The ocean versus the
space thing is an incredibly useful way of

705
00:54:09.880 --> 00:54:16.440
thinking about this. I immediately went
to Jung right, because oceans, for

706
00:54:16.679 --> 00:54:22.599
Carl Jung are very much about the
unconscious, and it's a metaphor for that,

707
00:54:22.920 --> 00:54:27.800
and one of the most important followers
of Young was Joseph Campbell, who

708
00:54:27.880 --> 00:54:32.119
said the Space Program was very much
about finally closing the circle between the spirit

709
00:54:32.320 --> 00:54:38.320
world and the real world and finally
understanding how the unconscious and the conscious go

710
00:54:38.400 --> 00:54:45.760
together. And I'm just like amazed
by the insight you just had, Danielle.

711
00:54:46.559 --> 00:54:55.960
We're really talking about a much more
complex representation of how people's emotional realities

712
00:54:57.000 --> 00:55:01.000
work, both for their benefit and
against their benefit and they and it's beautifully

713
00:55:01.039 --> 00:55:07.320
done by contrasting space with the ocean. It's just beautifully done that way.

714
00:55:07.639 --> 00:55:13.440
And I never I've played it probably
five times, I never thought of that.

715
00:55:13.519 --> 00:55:16.199
It is great. It's very singul
Yeah, just now. That's why.

716
00:55:16.320 --> 00:55:20.280
So I feel like it's so gratifying
to talk about this with people because

717
00:55:20.719 --> 00:55:22.440
you can think of things on your
own as you're playing it, but then

718
00:55:22.519 --> 00:55:27.159
you get other people's perspectives and it's
just something clicks and you're like, oh

719
00:55:27.159 --> 00:55:29.760
my god, yeah, this thing. And so I really I love this

720
00:55:30.119 --> 00:55:34.000
well. And what I love about
podcasts like this is being able to have

721
00:55:34.000 --> 00:55:37.280
these conversations and hearing all these different
things. And like I said, I

722
00:55:37.320 --> 00:55:39.119
didn't even pick up on the thing
with the fingers, and I certainly would

723
00:55:39.119 --> 00:55:45.800
have connected the space and ocean in
that same kind of a way playing on

724
00:55:46.039 --> 00:55:51.280
the Campbell thing and knowing all of
us love Star Wars. There are two

725
00:55:51.320 --> 00:55:52.679
kinds of Star Wars points I wanted
to bring up and get your thoughts on.

726
00:55:53.199 --> 00:55:57.159
The first a little bit facetious,
but the second one a little deeper.

727
00:55:57.559 --> 00:55:59.840
First, just in prema what we're
talking about a while ago, about

728
00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:05.920
them the young people, primarily men, who often struggle with this game because

729
00:56:05.960 --> 00:56:08.960
what they're looking for in a game
is clear lines of you know, right

730
00:56:09.000 --> 00:56:13.920
and wrong, good and bad.
I tend to I have to imagine that

731
00:56:14.199 --> 00:56:19.079
these end the can't believe made a
mistake twice. The then diagram of uh,

732
00:56:19.320 --> 00:56:22.440
you know, those fans and the
fans who are really upset about the

733
00:56:22.480 --> 00:56:25.199
last Jedi or end or has to
have an awful lot of overlap in terms

734
00:56:25.239 --> 00:56:30.320
of, you know, people not
they want Luke just to be the hero.

735
00:56:30.440 --> 00:56:31.400
They want Joel just to be the
hero. You know, they don't

736
00:56:31.440 --> 00:56:36.280
want the moral complexity and all that
kind of thing. Um. But going

737
00:56:36.280 --> 00:56:40.039
a little further on that, one
thing I'm very struck by is, you

738
00:56:40.079 --> 00:56:45.440
know, one of the central ideas
of Star wars. Is this idea of

739
00:56:45.440 --> 00:56:50.480
that if you hate that that love
is great. But if you hate the

740
00:56:50.639 --> 00:56:55.119
thing that endangers what you love,
that that that's the path to the dark

741
00:56:55.159 --> 00:57:00.440
side, you know. And that's
everything from you know, Anakin's Fall to

742
00:57:00.920 --> 00:57:06.119
when Rose saves Finn and you know
about you know, we don't win by

743
00:57:06.239 --> 00:57:10.239
fighting things we hate, but protecting
the things we love overall. And it's

744
00:57:10.280 --> 00:57:15.039
a story that's told again and again
of when you hate the thing that threatens

745
00:57:15.079 --> 00:57:20.039
you, you to humanize it,
You stop seeing it as anything accepted the

746
00:57:20.159 --> 00:57:23.840
enemy, and now you're willing to
justify any terrible thing you do. I'm

747
00:57:23.840 --> 00:57:28.920
all right. That's basically the story
of this like that that that idea,

748
00:57:29.239 --> 00:57:31.760
like not a spiritual dark side of
that kind of a way of the force,

749
00:57:31.880 --> 00:57:37.920
but just that that same idea of
when the person you love is endangered

750
00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:40.119
or is killed and all you feel
is hate towards the ones who did it,

751
00:57:40.880 --> 00:57:44.559
now you become just as brutal as
the people who did the things.

752
00:57:44.599 --> 00:57:47.480
Like it feels very much a this
is the dark side that moved this was

753
00:57:47.519 --> 00:57:52.760
talking about, Well, I think
I think it comes from we view these

754
00:57:52.440 --> 00:57:59.519
acts of vengeance and revenge as selfless. Sometimes we view them as for the

755
00:57:59.599 --> 00:58:02.400
person and that therefore, but they're
not. They're they're for us, there

756
00:58:02.400 --> 00:58:06.679
to make us feel better about what
has happened, to make us feel like

757
00:58:06.719 --> 00:58:12.159
we did something or that we had
control over an event that was uncontrollable.

758
00:58:12.639 --> 00:58:16.800
And I think, especially for Ellie, that's true and Abby that they had

759
00:58:16.800 --> 00:58:22.239
no control over what happened to their
respective fathers, and so they want to

760
00:58:22.280 --> 00:58:29.079
take back that control by taking away
the control from the person who did that.

761
00:58:29.760 --> 00:58:36.519
And that is a very selfish act. That is understandable because we all

762
00:58:36.559 --> 00:58:39.880
do it in small ways, even
in our daily lives. But when it's

763
00:58:39.880 --> 00:58:45.639
on this magnitude where it leads to
the deaths of so many people and to

764
00:58:45.760 --> 00:58:50.719
the deterioration of your own self,
then that's when it becomes an issue.

765
00:58:50.840 --> 00:58:53.960
And I think that in Star Wars
or any media or any franchise really that

766
00:58:54.079 --> 00:58:58.599
tackles this question, is that that's
what the problem is. And when Rose

767
00:58:58.719 --> 00:59:01.760
says, you know, we should
protect what we love instead of fighting what

768
00:59:01.800 --> 00:59:07.480
we hate, Protecting what you love
is the purest form of love, and

769
00:59:07.599 --> 00:59:14.079
that is the selfish part or selfless
part of love, where us hating is

770
00:59:14.119 --> 00:59:19.239
the selfish part. It's it's very
much the old Buddhist line, which is

771
00:59:19.280 --> 00:59:22.079
something like, if you really want
to anger the person who has harmed you,

772
00:59:22.880 --> 00:59:29.480
forgive them, yeah right, which
is I think very central to Star

773
00:59:29.519 --> 00:59:36.079
Wars and is the journey both Abbey
and Elie are on in this game.

774
00:59:36.360 --> 00:59:40.039
Yeah, to go from I'm going
to harm the person that harmed me too,

775
00:59:40.880 --> 00:59:45.679
I will forgive the person that harmed
me? Yeah right, yeah tick

776
00:59:45.800 --> 00:59:50.320
not Han who is a Buddhist monk
but has written a lot of about when

777
00:59:50.320 --> 00:59:53.920
the overlaps between Christianity and Buddhism.
That particular line is when he talks about

778
00:59:53.920 --> 00:59:59.199
a lot quite because it's it's always
a central theme in Christianity and in Buddhism

779
00:59:59.239 --> 01:00:02.039
and in a lot of other faith
perspectives, but those two especially. And

780
01:00:02.360 --> 01:00:06.519
Yeah, you're right, And I
love Danielle what you're saying about control,

781
01:00:06.639 --> 01:00:09.480
because that's Anakin's thing as well.
He's he wants to be in control of

782
01:00:09.519 --> 01:00:15.960
everything. His mother is killed and
he wasn't in control, so he lashes

783
01:00:15.000 --> 01:00:19.800
out and kills all the Tuscans.
Uh, pad Me is going to die

784
01:00:19.960 --> 01:00:23.760
and he can't be in control of
it, and so his option is Therefore

785
01:00:23.800 --> 01:00:29.159
I'm willing to do anything, including
you know, helping Zemperor and killing miss

786
01:00:29.199 --> 01:00:32.079
Windu to protect to you know,
And that's weird because there it is,

787
01:00:32.320 --> 01:00:36.800
you think what he's That's almost more
of what you were kind of saying at

788
01:00:36.800 --> 01:00:39.280
the very beginning about how it can
become corrosive. He is acting out of

789
01:00:39.280 --> 01:00:44.280
a desire to protect the things he
loves. But it's for him, it's

790
01:00:44.320 --> 01:00:49.199
become that corrosive of I will do
anything. Joel is acting to protect the

791
01:00:49.280 --> 01:00:52.000
thing he loves. Oh, I
didn't even thought about that way. That.

792
01:00:52.079 --> 01:00:55.840
Yeah, what Rose Tico says is
so true, but also itself can

793
01:00:55.880 --> 01:01:06.599
become so corrupted. You guys,
You guys are really smart. So are

794
01:01:06.639 --> 01:01:09.440
you? Thank you? Thank you? So much of this is connections.

795
01:01:09.440 --> 01:01:14.079
You're helping point us do so keep
everyone credit. We're patting each other on

796
01:01:14.079 --> 01:01:19.559
the back. So I have a
I have a question that might help us

797
01:01:19.800 --> 01:01:23.480
move forward slightly. But here's my
question. M the first game very much

798
01:01:23.599 --> 01:01:28.079
was a one season HBO show.
I mean, there was no place to

799
01:01:28.119 --> 01:01:34.239
cut the first game and make it
two seasons. The second game is I

800
01:01:34.239 --> 01:01:37.400
don't know, three seasons worth of
stuff. I mean, it's a big

801
01:01:37.480 --> 01:01:42.000
game. Where do you make the
cuts? Where does the first season the

802
01:01:42.039 --> 01:01:45.960
second season of HBO's Last of Us
have to end with the narrative from the

803
01:01:45.960 --> 01:01:52.079
second game? Did I know?
I think I know where they will end.

804
01:01:52.119 --> 01:01:55.679
It is the obvious place. But
I'm curious what you both say.

805
01:01:57.000 --> 01:02:00.159
I did a video about this on
TikTok because I wanted to see other people's

806
01:02:00.159 --> 01:02:07.039
opinions as well and work through my
own. Because I absolutely love the way

807
01:02:07.039 --> 01:02:12.719
that the game is set up.
I don't know that it's conducive to television,

808
01:02:13.559 --> 01:02:19.559
especially a TV show with an audience
that is so even more attached to

809
01:02:19.719 --> 01:02:24.840
Joel than the game players were,
because they're petrophascal fans, And on one

810
01:02:24.840 --> 01:02:29.719
hand, they're used to seeing him
die, so maybe they might be prepared

811
01:02:29.760 --> 01:02:31.920
for it. On the other hand, I have already seen like a lot

812
01:02:31.960 --> 01:02:36.840
of people say that they're not going
to keep watching once he dies, which

813
01:02:36.880 --> 01:02:42.880
is such a stupid way to a
pro show. But and it's very disrespectful

814
01:02:42.920 --> 01:02:45.679
to his part in the story anyway, because his part in the story doesn't

815
01:02:45.800 --> 01:02:49.119
end when he dies, even if
we never saw him again in the flashbacks,

816
01:02:49.199 --> 01:02:53.760
his spirit is there through Ellie.
But anyway, and So I have

817
01:02:53.880 --> 01:03:00.599
wondered if they're going to keep the
same structure of the game because I love

818
01:03:00.599 --> 01:03:06.400
it. I don't know. I
don't know if if it's conducive to television,

819
01:03:06.559 --> 01:03:12.679
and I wonder if they might start
with the flashbacks instead and have the

820
01:03:12.719 --> 01:03:17.199
season end where you find out who
Abby is and what she's on a journey

821
01:03:17.199 --> 01:03:22.280
for. And then that way you
get pether Pascal for a whole season and

822
01:03:22.320 --> 01:03:25.480
then part of the next season after
that, so you get him a little

823
01:03:25.519 --> 01:03:32.199
bit longer, you get to dive
deeper into the emotional connection between him and

824
01:03:32.199 --> 01:03:37.920
Ellie a little bit and take time
to, you know, talk about what

825
01:03:38.000 --> 01:03:42.840
has happened in the space between the
end of season one and season in the

826
01:03:42.880 --> 01:03:45.840
beginning of season two. So I
don't know. I would love to see

827
01:03:45.880 --> 01:03:49.079
them to keep the structure of the
game because I love it, but I

828
01:03:49.119 --> 01:03:52.840
don't know. There's something about like
the game makes you keep going. You

829
01:03:52.960 --> 01:03:57.639
have to keep going, but when
you're watching a show, you don't have

830
01:03:57.679 --> 01:04:00.880
to keep watching. You can stop
whenever you want. And I worry that

831
01:04:00.880 --> 01:04:06.440
that might play into the into their
thinkings. It is such a great question,

832
01:04:06.840 --> 01:04:12.599
and it's one where I think I
hate that this is a thing because

833
01:04:12.679 --> 01:04:16.159
I want artists to have just a
purity of tell the story the way you

834
01:04:16.159 --> 01:04:21.559
want to tell it. But the
fact that HBO is does episodic television,

835
01:04:21.719 --> 01:04:28.039
not binge television, and the social
media environment, honestly, I think is

836
01:04:28.079 --> 01:04:30.559
the biggest reason why they couldn't do
it the way they do it, Because

837
01:04:30.599 --> 01:04:35.800
I would love it if a whole
bunch of viewers get to have like two

838
01:04:35.840 --> 01:04:41.920
episodes of Abby and Owen and now
going on this journey and being helped by

839
01:04:42.000 --> 01:04:47.000
Tommy and Joel all to get to
this shocking realization that they're there to kill

840
01:04:47.079 --> 01:04:49.960
Joel. I think that would make
for some of the best television ever.

841
01:04:51.079 --> 01:04:56.960
I think you would have to live
under a rock, come out of that

842
01:04:57.039 --> 01:05:00.920
rock to watch one episode of HBO
week, go back under rock, and

843
01:05:00.039 --> 01:05:03.840
not exist in any other way in
the world on the Internet in order to

844
01:05:03.880 --> 01:05:08.239
not find out before that reveal that
Abby is going to kill Joel. Yeah,

845
01:05:08.239 --> 01:05:09.920
Like, I just don't know how
they could do it. Yeah,

846
01:05:11.800 --> 01:05:15.559
so yeah. I feel like if
they were going to do three seasons,

847
01:05:15.599 --> 01:05:18.079
the way I would think it would
be broken up would be however you get

848
01:05:18.119 --> 01:05:24.519
there. Season one ends with Joel's
death, or season two ends with Joel's

849
01:05:24.519 --> 01:05:29.679
death, quite possibly with a lot
of flashbacks there. Season season three ends

850
01:05:29.719 --> 01:05:32.119
with the second to the next coming
the second Yeah, you know what I

851
01:05:32.119 --> 01:05:38.239
mean. The second of these seasons
would end with Abby letting Ellie go and

852
01:05:38.320 --> 01:05:43.199
Ellie going back to Cottage Corps Paradise, with the last scene being Tommy showing

853
01:05:43.280 --> 01:05:46.840
up and saying I found Abby and
Ellie looking determined and Dina looking heartbroken.

854
01:05:47.280 --> 01:05:50.960
And then season three would be the
journey to Santa Barbara and all that would

855
01:05:50.960 --> 01:05:56.199
happen, and it would give them
time. I'm convinced there's the Last of

856
01:05:56.280 --> 01:06:01.920
Us Part three coming. I am
convinced Troy Baker has been has been leaving

857
01:06:01.960 --> 01:06:05.840
some hints. I am convinced that
there's Last Us Part three coming. Um.

858
01:06:06.480 --> 01:06:10.800
They've not announced it yet, but
I'm absolutely convinced they would be stupid

859
01:06:10.840 --> 01:06:13.440
not to make a third one.
Well, I mean, Neil Juckman has

860
01:06:13.440 --> 01:06:15.679
said he only wants to make a
third one if it makes sense for the

861
01:06:15.719 --> 01:06:17.719
story and if it would be respectful
to the story, and I do appreciate

862
01:06:17.760 --> 01:06:21.079
that, but also there's got to
be like some money, some money making

863
01:06:21.199 --> 01:06:28.599
chimes in his head, because I
hope you're right. But the icy ball

864
01:06:28.639 --> 01:06:32.960
of fear that formed in my heart
as you said that about any idea where

865
01:06:32.960 --> 01:06:39.079
a story is being told in one
medium but hasn't being finished told in another

866
01:06:39.159 --> 01:06:42.760
medium Game of Thrones. Game of
Thrones poisoned all that for me so much.

867
01:06:43.440 --> 01:06:46.519
But but the good thing is is
that Neil Jukman is intrinsically tied to

868
01:06:46.559 --> 01:06:50.760
the show. So that's true that
in a way that George rr Martin never

869
01:06:50.800 --> 01:06:56.840
really wanted to be. And and
so I think that that would also give

870
01:06:56.880 --> 01:07:02.159
time for the story of Season of
Part three to be integrated into a potential

871
01:07:02.199 --> 01:07:06.119
season three, because I don't think
that there's enough material in that last like

872
01:07:06.239 --> 01:07:11.400
quarter of the Game of Part two
to be a full season on its own,

873
01:07:11.800 --> 01:07:15.719
but you could bring in, uh, you know, kind of ties

874
01:07:15.800 --> 01:07:19.559
to a potential future Part three.
And if if we got a season three

875
01:07:19.559 --> 01:07:26.760
that would probably come out in like
twenty twenty seven, that's potentially when a

876
01:07:26.800 --> 01:07:30.440
Part three video game could come out
or around the same time, So you

877
01:07:30.519 --> 01:07:34.119
never know, you never know,
Matt, what were your ideas about where

878
01:07:34.119 --> 01:07:41.360
it could go, where it might
end? Well, I don't I have

879
01:07:42.119 --> 01:07:46.360
published some short fiction in my life
but I am not a writer. I'm

880
01:07:46.440 --> 01:07:53.840
not good at framing stories. I
don't But I don't see how the first

881
01:07:53.880 --> 01:08:00.000
season doesn't end with the death of
Jewel. Yeah, even if the next

882
01:08:00.079 --> 01:08:03.519
season has a lot of the Jewel
flashbacks to keep Pedro Pascal around, right,

883
01:08:03.599 --> 01:08:14.360
Yeah. I actually I was talking
about this game with a husband of

884
01:08:14.400 --> 01:08:19.399
a friend of mine, a guy
from Sky actually, who said I never

885
01:08:19.399 --> 01:08:23.680
played the second game because I know
what happened and I'm not going to play

886
01:08:23.760 --> 01:08:30.079
that. Yeah, right, And
so I see where people are coming from

887
01:08:30.079 --> 01:08:38.359
in that regard. But but I
still think if you start fumbling the narrative

888
01:08:38.960 --> 01:08:43.840
enough to keep Pedro Pascal around more, you're going to undermine the actual point

889
01:08:43.840 --> 01:08:46.199
of the story. Yeah, And
I don't think. I don't think Craig

890
01:08:46.239 --> 01:08:50.680
Mason or Neil Druckman are going to
let them underline undermine the point of the

891
01:08:50.720 --> 01:08:57.199
story. And Neil Druckman and Dave
Filoni might have to have a talk sometime

892
01:08:57.239 --> 01:08:59.960
about Okay, when when does Pedro
get to go play with one of them?

893
01:09:00.119 --> 01:09:02.039
And when does Patre get to play
with the other one? Because depending

894
01:09:02.039 --> 01:09:05.279
on what the plan. I hate
to say it, but whatever the plans

895
01:09:05.279 --> 01:09:11.199
are for post Mandalorian TV shows and
movies and stuff. You know, Pagre's

896
01:09:11.239 --> 01:09:13.560
only one person. He's only got
so many hours in the day, so

897
01:09:13.640 --> 01:09:15.159
well, I would probably also happen. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised

898
01:09:15.159 --> 01:09:18.720
if he prioritizes the last of us. I would if I was him that

899
01:09:19.039 --> 01:09:23.079
I think. I mean, that's
that's the next step of his career that

900
01:09:23.159 --> 01:09:27.039
he's waited for for so long.
But now I acause we can see his

901
01:09:27.119 --> 01:09:30.600
face. Yeah, I absolutely believe
that they're going to keep Joel's death.

902
01:09:32.279 --> 01:09:34.760
I just think that if it was
the structure, same structure of the game,

903
01:09:34.840 --> 01:09:40.319
his death would happen in like episode
one, episode two, and I

904
01:09:40.319 --> 01:09:44.960
could see them wanting to stretch it
out, include some of the flashbacks before

905
01:09:45.000 --> 01:09:46.600
they have his death, and like
keep it at season one. But Neil

906
01:09:46.680 --> 01:09:50.479
Druckman has said that he doesn't care
what people didn't like about the game.

907
01:09:50.600 --> 01:09:55.000
He said, I'm staying true to
it. I don't care, and like,

908
01:09:55.119 --> 01:09:58.720
thank you, Neil, and Craig
Mason's a huge fan, so I

909
01:09:58.760 --> 01:10:01.359
know that he'll want to stay at
as true to it as as possible.

910
01:10:02.880 --> 01:10:05.920
Yeah, it'll be fascinating to see
and I think a really interesting class in

911
01:10:06.000 --> 01:10:09.840
terms of comedia adapting adaptation. I
think like that can't wait. That was

912
01:10:09.880 --> 01:10:13.039
my favorite part of season one.
Let me ask one more big question and

913
01:10:13.079 --> 01:10:15.359
then we're gonna wrap up, And
one day I'm going to set myself a

914
01:10:15.399 --> 01:10:17.800
challenge of the three of us trying
to do an hour of conversation. I

915
01:10:17.840 --> 01:10:20.800
don't think it's possible, but I'm
going to try. But I'm so grateful

916
01:10:20.840 --> 01:10:24.640
for both of your times. But
because Mattie, you know this is a

917
01:10:24.680 --> 01:10:28.960
topic you were pretily interested in,
I thought, you know, I'm a

918
01:10:29.000 --> 01:10:32.880
study student of religion and sociology of
religion, so introducing a religion that has

919
01:10:32.920 --> 01:10:39.760
formed in these times was fascinating to
me. And again I was deeply frustrated

920
01:10:39.800 --> 01:10:44.159
that we never really got to sit
with the history and the theology of this

921
01:10:44.199 --> 01:10:47.520
new religion, But again realizing that
that's not what the point, because the

922
01:10:47.520 --> 01:10:54.039
point of the story isn't about the
societal changes and the wolves versus Federa and

923
01:10:54.199 --> 01:10:58.399
like how should this world be governed? It's just about two people with revenge

924
01:10:58.960 --> 01:11:03.439
fans, with two people playing out
their own revenge needs against this larger backdrop.

925
01:11:04.359 --> 01:11:08.000
But I'm curious from both of you
but I'm after you. I'll start

926
01:11:08.000 --> 01:11:11.800
with you. What did you think
of the way they introduced that religion and

927
01:11:12.720 --> 01:11:16.760
the where it went in terms of
both storytelling but also just a sociological idea

928
01:11:16.800 --> 01:11:20.199
of like, yeah, of course
religions would start to come about in this

929
01:11:20.319 --> 01:11:28.359
kind of post apocalyptic world. Well, if there's one thing that historically,

930
01:11:28.359 --> 01:11:33.800
it turns out America is really good
at, it's inventing religion. Our national

931
01:11:33.920 --> 01:11:39.159
narrative is very much that. But
I mean, go to the nineteenth century

932
01:11:39.199 --> 01:11:43.199
and upstate New York and you can't
throw a stone without hitting a new prophet.

933
01:11:45.199 --> 01:11:51.560
Yea Church of Jesus Christ of Letter
des Saints. So it's not surprising

934
01:11:51.600 --> 01:11:56.840
at all, but it's But it's
also I think the most important thing to

935
01:11:56.920 --> 01:12:01.159
me of that new religion is how
quickly it got on her mind. And

936
01:12:01.199 --> 01:12:06.079
I think that's the main point,
and that's why that's the main point for

937
01:12:06.119 --> 01:12:12.640
its existence, is to show how
easily the affair I'm going to use,

938
01:12:13.079 --> 01:12:15.439
I'm going to use the old fashioned
sexist way of saying this, but how

939
01:12:15.640 --> 01:12:24.079
easily the affairs of men can be
corrupted. Because here is a new religion

940
01:12:24.359 --> 01:12:31.479
that in which the founder is a
woman, and which therefore gender had to

941
01:12:31.520 --> 01:12:36.000
have been a thing in which one
of the main non playable characters of the

942
01:12:36.039 --> 01:12:44.119
story is a statement about gender.
Who is rejected by this religious community,

943
01:12:44.319 --> 01:12:47.039
right, you're talking about love that
lab boy, Yeah, rejected specifically because

944
01:12:47.079 --> 01:12:50.960
he he shaves his hair, which
is something that women aren't supposed to do

945
01:12:50.960 --> 01:12:57.279
in our community. Yes, so, I think very much. The fact

946
01:12:57.279 --> 01:13:03.560
that the religion seems to have its
reformation almost immediately is kind of the point.

947
01:13:03.920 --> 01:13:08.039
And that point is a bigger point, which is, no matter how

948
01:13:08.119 --> 01:13:12.239
humans try to organize the world,
they're not good at it. Yeah,

949
01:13:13.479 --> 01:13:16.800
And when it's trying to organize the
spiritual world, we're even worse at it.

950
01:13:18.560 --> 01:13:23.840
And you, Matthew, as a
student of religion, know that much

951
01:13:23.880 --> 01:13:28.840
better than I do. But the
last two thousand years of the history of

952
01:13:28.920 --> 01:13:33.039
the Christian religion is point after point
after point of people arguing no, that's

953
01:13:33.079 --> 01:13:39.439
not right. And I'm often doing
so with swords and then with guns.

954
01:13:39.520 --> 01:13:45.079
Yes, And I'd be very interested
to heal more Neo drucman that I say

955
01:13:45.079 --> 01:13:47.560
his name, Yes, Yeah,
I would be curious to hear more of

956
01:13:47.600 --> 01:13:53.399
his thoughts on religion because I don't
think it's coincidental that the man who wrote

957
01:13:53.119 --> 01:13:58.399
The Seraphians the Scars, and as
he said, take this core of a

958
01:13:58.399 --> 01:14:01.920
religious idea that seems healthy, but
turn it very violent and very oppressive very

959
01:14:02.000 --> 01:14:09.640
quickly. That's the same person who
in Part one and season one wrote all

960
01:14:09.640 --> 01:14:13.520
of these characters, who, yes, are doing things that are hard for

961
01:14:13.600 --> 01:14:17.399
our main characters, but all have
a core of If I was in their

962
01:14:17.439 --> 01:14:20.520
shoes, I might do the same
thing they were doing. Except for one

963
01:14:21.000 --> 01:14:26.640
David, who's a religious leader.
I think there's a really interesting parallel there,

964
01:14:26.680 --> 01:14:31.760
and a really interesting statement being made
about how as much as there's a

965
01:14:31.840 --> 01:14:35.039
like, if you understand everything from
every person's side, they're the hero.

966
01:14:35.600 --> 01:14:41.079
When religion gets in, it's a
lot harder to have that like, well,

967
01:14:41.560 --> 01:14:44.479
they're just from a different point of
view, because the religion often becomes

968
01:14:44.840 --> 01:14:47.640
our way or else for everyone.
It's important I think, oh sorry,

969
01:14:48.119 --> 01:14:57.800
I think it's it's important to recognize
that Druckman is an Israeli chew. Yeah,

970
01:14:57.800 --> 01:15:03.479
so he brings both the Israeli part
and the Jewish part to his discussion

971
01:15:03.479 --> 01:15:10.720
of religion, and I think that's
really important. And I will say I

972
01:15:10.760 --> 01:15:15.319
did really appreciate that Dinah is Jewish
herself, and her Judaism is a part

973
01:15:15.359 --> 01:15:18.680
of her character in some very important
ways that were mentioned that I really right.

974
01:15:18.760 --> 01:15:23.600
If you look online at the toxic
backlash to the game, it's it's

975
01:15:24.000 --> 01:15:30.359
it's weird how people are almost more
upset about her jewishness than her lesbians right

976
01:15:30.479 --> 01:15:35.319
or bisexuality. But they're definitely upset
about both. But you can tell what

977
01:15:35.399 --> 01:15:40.880
kind of person they are by which
one is more upsetting. Yeah, I

978
01:15:40.920 --> 01:15:51.079
had to go to a synagogue.
Bisexual fascinating, and I'm glad you also

979
01:15:51.119 --> 01:15:58.199
mentioned I do like that the show
has Dina leaves a man for a woman,

980
01:15:58.880 --> 01:16:02.439
and yet it is never it never
does any character ever say that's what

981
01:16:02.439 --> 01:16:06.439
it's about. Ellie never makes a
joke about I'm glad you're finally playing for

982
01:16:06.479 --> 01:16:10.159
the right team. She says,
you know, oh god, I can't

983
01:16:10.199 --> 01:16:13.640
believe I ever thought I was attracted
to men's. There are two people who

984
01:16:13.720 --> 01:16:15.800
she's attracted to in the story.
Her relationship with one of them ends,

985
01:16:15.800 --> 01:16:20.199
her relationship with another begins, and
the fact that they are different genders has

986
01:16:20.239 --> 01:16:24.680
nothing to do with why that happened, And that there's never a moment of

987
01:16:24.720 --> 01:16:30.439
thinking that her now being attracted to
Ellie means that she wasn't attracted and Ellie,

988
01:16:30.479 --> 01:16:32.680
though I think is very clearly gay, I think she hasn't expressed any

989
01:16:32.680 --> 01:16:35.319
attraction to men at all. And
I love that we can have both of

990
01:16:35.359 --> 01:16:39.319
those characters. So this is a
completely tangent what you're saying. But I

991
01:16:39.359 --> 01:16:43.359
just need to go off on that
quick thing about Dina being awesome bisexual representation.

992
01:16:44.279 --> 01:16:47.439
But it's also sorry, I'm shutting
out, so it's okay. I

993
01:16:47.520 --> 01:16:53.079
was just gonna say about the Seraphites
and learning more about them. I think

994
01:16:53.079 --> 01:16:58.520
this is one thing that Neil and
the rest of the creative team at Naughty

995
01:16:58.560 --> 01:17:01.439
Dog, who produced the lat of
Us games, do with this game is

996
01:17:01.479 --> 01:17:06.399
that they they intrigue you by wanting
to learn the story and piecing it together

997
01:17:06.479 --> 01:17:10.840
by the letters and you know,
the flyers that you find, the little

998
01:17:10.880 --> 01:17:16.760
carvings and everything, but they leave
just enough out that they can tell the

999
01:17:16.840 --> 01:17:23.439
story elsewhere if they want to.
And that's such a good marketing employ is

1000
01:17:23.479 --> 01:17:26.680
such a good but also just like
a good narrative ploy as well, because

1001
01:17:26.680 --> 01:17:30.000
it leaves things open for future exploration. And I think that that is one

1002
01:17:30.000 --> 01:17:31.520
thing it has in common with Star
Wars, because Star Wars does that as

1003
01:17:31.520 --> 01:17:38.439
well, and I think they're finding
that incredibly useful when it comes to adapting

1004
01:17:38.439 --> 01:17:44.279
it to a TV show, because
then you have a lot of different narratives

1005
01:17:44.359 --> 01:17:48.039
you can explore. You have things
that can fluff up a season a little

1006
01:17:48.039 --> 01:17:55.680
bit more than just the you know, the Ellie just traveling through Seattle is

1007
01:17:55.680 --> 01:17:58.840
not going to make a really great
TV show on its own, but you

1008
01:17:58.840 --> 01:18:01.239
can break it up with looking at
the Seraphites. You can break it up

1009
01:18:01.279 --> 01:18:05.920
with looking at the Wolves by maybe
starting a little bit earlier and looking at

1010
01:18:05.920 --> 01:18:12.279
how the conflicts between the two started. And I could very easily see them

1011
01:18:12.319 --> 01:18:17.880
starting some episode in season two by
looking at the fall of Seattle and Wolves

1012
01:18:17.960 --> 01:18:23.760
versus certify Its to set that narrative
up. And they can do that because

1013
01:18:23.880 --> 01:18:28.880
Neil and his team and the team
around him created that open space. And

1014
01:18:29.000 --> 01:18:31.000
I think that's such good world building
on his part, and there's so much

1015
01:18:31.039 --> 01:18:34.359
that goes into it. He's talked
before about with things from part one in

1016
01:18:34.600 --> 01:18:39.520
going into season one that he has
written all of this, like he knows

1017
01:18:39.560 --> 01:18:42.760
the story behind it, and there's
so little that he gets to put in

1018
01:18:42.800 --> 01:18:45.560
the game, but when it comes
to the show, he can just give

1019
01:18:45.560 --> 01:18:47.039
that to Craig, and Craig's like, great, I can write this in

1020
01:18:48.479 --> 01:18:51.359
Yeah. In the same way during
our episode and Star Wars celebration, I

1021
01:18:51.399 --> 01:18:57.239
said, like, I want the
West Wing show about the Senate on Cortissant.

1022
01:18:57.279 --> 01:19:00.560
I want the full history of Fedrah, like, give me the politics

1023
01:19:00.560 --> 01:19:02.880
of it all. But the more
important thing I was gonna say about that

1024
01:19:03.000 --> 01:19:09.319
is that, Danielle, you mentioned
a while ago how you could play through

1025
01:19:09.359 --> 01:19:13.199
the first part of the game and
not learn anything about Ellie because you don't

1026
01:19:13.239 --> 01:19:15.439
notice her reactions and you don't click, you don't press the button when the

1027
01:19:15.479 --> 01:19:18.880
green triangle appears above her head,
and all that kind of stuff. I

1028
01:19:18.880 --> 01:19:24.520
think this game does that even more. Where you could go like, so

1029
01:19:24.640 --> 01:19:27.920
much of the story of this game
is through all the letters that we find,

1030
01:19:28.399 --> 01:19:30.239
and there are characters who I feel
like I know pretty well, but

1031
01:19:30.319 --> 01:19:34.880
we never see them on screen.
We just read their letters and it's beautiful

1032
01:19:34.920 --> 01:19:40.640
storytelling. But it also sort of
goes to his main point because you could

1033
01:19:40.640 --> 01:19:44.640
approach this game as I just want
to press buttons and use cool weapons to

1034
01:19:44.720 --> 01:19:49.399
kill people and never learn their story
and what a message is that about hate

1035
01:19:49.439 --> 01:19:54.199
and about violence and about how the
idea of I just want to kill things

1036
01:19:54.199 --> 01:19:58.079
and never learn their backstory. Like
that's the problem with every military in the

1037
01:19:58.079 --> 01:20:01.560
world, especially ours. Ye.
What I love about about Niel and Craig

1038
01:20:01.800 --> 01:20:06.560
is that they've kind of talked about
this on their podcast for the show um

1039
01:20:06.560 --> 01:20:12.520
mostly when when they were talking about
the end of season one, and they're

1040
01:20:12.560 --> 01:20:16.079
like, you can you can what
if this situation all you want? You

1041
01:20:16.119 --> 01:20:20.479
can say, Oh, well,
what if the the you know, the

1042
01:20:21.640 --> 01:20:25.239
I can't even think of the word
the inoculation doesn't work, Like what if

1043
01:20:25.239 --> 01:20:28.199
the cure doesn't work? You know, it can't work because of this,

1044
01:20:28.279 --> 01:20:31.000
this and this, How are they
going to get mass? And how are

1045
01:20:31.000 --> 01:20:34.199
they going to spread it in a
mass you know manner? They can't do

1046
01:20:34.279 --> 01:20:38.880
that. So Joel was justified in
doing and doing all of this stuff.

1047
01:20:39.079 --> 01:20:41.680
And they said, like they actually
said, if you do that, you're

1048
01:20:41.720 --> 01:20:45.560
missing the point of the story,
Like like, don't don't do that make

1049
01:20:45.560 --> 01:20:51.359
yourself uncomfortable. Take away those what
ifs, take away those explanations of you

1050
01:20:51.359 --> 01:20:55.600
know, of trying to defend Joel's
actions, and just look at the action

1051
01:20:55.720 --> 01:21:00.560
for what it is in that moment, and that's the point of the story.

1052
01:21:00.600 --> 01:21:03.880
And I think, in a kind
of a reverse way, is that's

1053
01:21:03.880 --> 01:21:10.000
the point of the whole game.
Is if you just play straight through and

1054
01:21:10.119 --> 01:21:13.960
don't do any of this stuff,
you can, but you're missing the point

1055
01:21:14.000 --> 01:21:18.039
of the story and you're not engaging
fully in the way that the creators want

1056
01:21:18.079 --> 01:21:21.920
you to. What did you to
engage with You're not getting the full story.

1057
01:21:23.199 --> 01:21:27.399
And so I always think it's interesting
when when you talked to usually like

1058
01:21:27.439 --> 01:21:30.520
the toxic fans of it about it, and they're like, Oh, you

1059
01:21:30.560 --> 01:21:31.479
don't have to do that. I
don't have to read all this stuff.

1060
01:21:31.479 --> 01:21:34.159
I don't have to like learn all
this stuff, and like, congratulations,

1061
01:21:34.279 --> 01:21:39.239
you are not getting the story that
you think you're getting, Like you're you're

1062
01:21:39.279 --> 01:21:42.880
not actually getting the full story.
You're not understanding it, you're not engaging

1063
01:21:42.920 --> 01:21:46.560
with it the way that you don't
have to. But why wouldn't you want

1064
01:21:46.600 --> 01:21:49.960
to? Why would you spend that
much money on the game, Why would

1065
01:21:49.960 --> 01:21:54.159
you spend so much time playing it
if you're not going to engage with it

1066
01:21:54.279 --> 01:21:57.760
fully, which people are allowed to
do. But I don't understand it.

1067
01:21:59.640 --> 01:22:02.880
I'm very much looking forward, not
that I want to encourage toxic social media,

1068
01:22:02.920 --> 01:22:08.399
but I'm looking forward to when we
will invariably get the why is this

1069
01:22:08.520 --> 01:22:11.399
character on screen? Blah blah blah
blah blah, and then so much makes

1070
01:22:11.439 --> 01:22:15.000
a TikTok response where they just put
the letter of like, here's that character,

1071
01:22:15.640 --> 01:22:19.000
they are the game you just missed
them. Yeah, well, I

1072
01:22:19.039 --> 01:22:21.920
think that's about a good place in
our patron section. We're gonna talk about

1073
01:22:21.960 --> 01:22:25.920
some other video games with it very
quickly. But is there any of the

1074
01:22:25.960 --> 01:22:31.279
last points either you wanted to make
about this game. I think Matthew said

1075
01:22:31.279 --> 01:22:35.920
this earlier, and I agree it
is which one doctor. Matthew said this

1076
01:22:36.000 --> 01:22:47.960
earlier that I truly believe this is
one of the best video game narratives ever,

1077
01:22:48.319 --> 01:22:56.800
and for me, it's probably my
favorite story period, and I just

1078
01:22:56.960 --> 01:22:59.800
I think it can become that for
people if you give it the chance,

1079
01:23:00.119 --> 01:23:02.880
if you if you if you allow
yourself to be uncomfortable, like Neil and

1080
01:23:02.920 --> 01:23:06.920
Craig have said, you're supposed to
feel uncomfortable. You're supposed to question yourself.

1081
01:23:06.920 --> 01:23:14.640
You're supposed to open your mind up
to more possibilities and more in depth

1082
01:23:15.039 --> 01:23:19.760
discussions with yourself and interrogate yourself.
And to me, that is the is

1083
01:23:19.760 --> 01:23:23.479
the most beautiful part of the story
is that it forces you to do that,

1084
01:23:26.159 --> 01:23:30.000
which is the most beautiful part of
just about any story. Yeah,

1085
01:23:30.039 --> 01:23:33.079
that's why humans make stories. Yeah, yeah, I mean that's to me,

1086
01:23:33.119 --> 01:23:38.239
the whole ethos of this podcast is
taking these stories that don't have the

1087
01:23:38.319 --> 01:23:43.439
right answers, you know, that
are about these hard questions first of all,

1088
01:23:43.479 --> 01:23:45.279
just to fully understand and appreciate it. If you don't appreciate just what

1089
01:23:45.359 --> 01:23:48.600
that means. When Dannielle says this
is her favorite story, please go to

1090
01:23:48.600 --> 01:23:54.479
her TikTok and just search for the
words Rogue one because that's the level of

1091
01:23:55.159 --> 01:24:00.159
other love for a story that's not
her favorite. So that's how high that

1092
01:24:00.199 --> 01:24:02.560
bar is set. Because your love
of Rogue One is phenomenal and has taught

1093
01:24:02.560 --> 01:24:06.640
me a lot about that that story, including the novelization, which apparently everybody

1094
01:24:06.680 --> 01:24:13.680
should reach. But yeah, like, and this kind of goes what you're

1095
01:24:13.680 --> 01:24:19.399
saying before with the philosophy part of
the people questioning the situation. This is

1096
01:24:19.399 --> 01:24:23.319
going to sound like a terrible thing, but I'm I'm a little bit of

1097
01:24:23.319 --> 01:24:28.880
a defender of trolley problems like,
yes, when they become intellectual exercises for

1098
01:24:28.920 --> 01:24:31.760
people who aren't affected by it,
it becomes really problematic. But I think

1099
01:24:31.800 --> 01:24:36.560
the idea of setting up a situation
of when you're faced with a terrible choice,

1100
01:24:36.640 --> 01:24:40.800
how would you choose? And what
does that say about you? Is

1101
01:24:40.840 --> 01:24:44.720
an interesting moral philosophical question. And
when people just want to say, oh,

1102
01:24:44.760 --> 01:24:46.439
but let's play with the question and
not make you make the choice,

1103
01:24:46.680 --> 01:24:54.039
you're missing the point. And all
of humanity being saved versus saving the person

1104
01:24:54.079 --> 01:24:58.279
who's become my daughter is quite literally
a trolley problem, and that's what Joel

1105
01:24:58.319 --> 01:25:02.239
has to do. And yeah,
so I just I really appreciate that you

1106
01:25:02.279 --> 01:25:10.640
brought that up and all there.
Uh non doctor Matthew, uh uh a

1107
01:25:10.800 --> 01:25:13.119
point? How do you what's the
actual batter way to refer to you,

1108
01:25:13.359 --> 01:25:19.359
professor doctor Matthew? Matt MWK Well, I definitely don't like matt but um

1109
01:25:19.600 --> 01:25:24.399
okay, but okay, So I
have a I have an old friend who's

1110
01:25:24.439 --> 01:25:30.800
a from from one of the families
in Italian New Yorker who's known as uh,

1111
01:25:30.840 --> 01:25:34.359
you know, people called him Nikki
um and he used to call me

1112
01:25:34.439 --> 01:25:40.319
Maddie the head. So how about
Maddie the Head. That that that's kind

1113
01:25:40.479 --> 01:25:44.680
that's kind of my that's kind of
my organized crime name. Okay, but

1114
01:25:44.920 --> 01:25:46.199
I thought I was gonna take all
that out, but now I'm keeping it.

1115
01:25:47.159 --> 01:25:51.680
But if you can call me anything
you want. And I'm very proud

1116
01:25:51.760 --> 01:25:55.880
of the damn doctorate, so I'm
not gonna really complain about it. Yeah,

1117
01:25:55.920 --> 01:26:00.199
okay, would you prefer doctor professor? Doctor doctor? Okay? All

1118
01:26:00.279 --> 01:26:04.039
right, well so doctor Maddy the
Head, do you have any other last

1119
01:26:04.039 --> 01:26:08.359
things you want to say before we
wrap up? I think that we got

1120
01:26:08.399 --> 01:26:11.680
a lot of in the first HBO
season. We got a lot of flashbacks

1121
01:26:11.680 --> 01:26:14.119
that aren't in the game, which
tips their hand that we're going to have

1122
01:26:14.159 --> 01:26:16.760
a lot of flashbacks going forward.
Yeah, and I think I'm very much

1123
01:26:16.800 --> 01:26:21.159
looking forward to finding out more about
the narrative than my five playthroughs of the

1124
01:26:21.239 --> 01:26:27.279
game have given me. Yeah.
I think that's episode three of season one

1125
01:26:27.439 --> 01:26:30.359
alone tells me that some of those
like stories we saw play out in the

1126
01:26:30.439 --> 01:26:34.039
letters will probably meet those characters on
screen and get their whole stories. Yes,

1127
01:26:34.159 --> 01:26:38.800
yeah, any ways, they'll be
really powerful and that's exciting. Well,

1128
01:26:38.800 --> 01:26:40.960
thank you both so much for being
a part of that, I said

1129
01:26:40.960 --> 01:26:43.760
in our patron section, I'm going
to ask them about some other video games

1130
01:26:43.760 --> 01:26:46.640
they love. But for those who
aren't going to hear that, just quickly,

1131
01:26:46.800 --> 01:26:53.840
where can people find you? I'm
on TikTok at, written in the

1132
01:26:53.880 --> 01:26:57.840
Star Wars and on Twitter at Danny
s three ninety four. I'm always talking

1133
01:26:57.920 --> 01:27:00.319
about Star Wars and the Last of
Us. Let's check out. Yeah,

1134
01:27:00.720 --> 01:27:04.840
great content, we're checking out.
Matthew and I'm old, so I'm not

1135
01:27:04.880 --> 01:27:10.720
anywhere, but but you can.
You can find my web page, which

1136
01:27:10.760 --> 01:27:14.279
is Matthew Capel dot com and where
I essentially tell you what I've taught and

1137
01:27:14.680 --> 01:27:18.560
why you should buy books. Um
and if you search for studies in gaming

1138
01:27:18.640 --> 01:27:23.159
and my last name Capell with one
pe, you'll get to that series.

1139
01:27:23.199 --> 01:27:26.840
And there are a lot of really
smart people, smarter than than me,

1140
01:27:27.000 --> 01:27:30.880
who have done books for that series
about some of the most important games that

1141
01:27:30.960 --> 01:27:33.640
have ever been released. So take
a look at those. Those are definitely

1142
01:27:33.680 --> 01:27:36.760
worth buying. My publisher wanted me
to say it that way too, but

1143
01:27:38.079 --> 01:27:41.399
I don't know. That's great.
I'm hoping your publishers one day. My

1144
01:27:41.439 --> 01:27:44.840
publisher, so it's good to keep
that person happy and of course, I

1145
01:27:44.880 --> 01:27:47.760
am Matthew Fox. I am the
Ethical Panda. You can go to the

1146
01:27:47.800 --> 01:27:50.920
Ethical Panda dot com. You find
all the podcasts. Most importantly, you

1147
01:27:50.920 --> 01:27:54.359
find ways to contact us. Let
us know. What do you think about

1148
01:27:54.359 --> 01:27:57.359
the game if you've played it,
what are you excited for for the upcoming

1149
01:27:57.399 --> 01:28:00.640
seasons? What are you worried about? How do you feel about all this?

1150
01:28:00.079 --> 01:28:02.880
Could you learn to love Abby?
We didn't even talk about it.

1151
01:28:02.880 --> 01:28:06.800
There's so much more about her character
we didn't get into. Let us know.

1152
01:28:08.119 --> 01:28:11.720
All that show information is at the
Ethical Panda dot com. Of course,

1153
01:28:11.760 --> 01:28:14.479
Also think about becoming a patron.
I love doing this show. It

1154
01:28:14.640 --> 01:28:15.640
is a lot of work. There's
a lot of expense that goes into it.

1155
01:28:15.920 --> 01:28:19.479
The patrons really helped to make that
possible. You get bonus content as

1156
01:28:19.520 --> 01:28:23.399
you're about to hear if you are
a patron, So please think about that.

1157
01:28:23.520 --> 01:28:27.520
All the information is again in the
show notes. So on behalf of

1158
01:28:27.520 --> 01:28:30.239
myself. Matthew and Danielle, thank
you all so much for being a part

1159
01:28:30.239 --> 01:28:39.600
of this. We have spoken.
First time seeing a monkey. It's such

1160
01:28:39.600 --> 01:28:41.479
a good boy.