WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.399 --> 00:00:07.200 Some of you may not know this, but we have a great team of 2 00:00:07.400 --> 00:00:12.199 therapists and educators at the Expansive Group. The team at the Expansive Group has 3 00:00:12.240 --> 00:00:17.519 been hard at work behind the scenes developing an educational platform that I am super 4 00:00:17.600 --> 00:00:21.719 excited about, particularly because, at least for me, the coming out experience, 5 00:00:21.760 --> 00:00:26.239 coming into my own sexuality was an extraordinarily lonely experience. So we built 6 00:00:26.280 --> 00:00:32.000 this platform centered around community. You'll be able to learn through courses, workshops, 7 00:00:32.079 --> 00:00:36.399 worksheets, and probably my favorite part, which is tender Queer Hangs several 8 00:00:36.520 --> 00:00:41.840 different weekly hangs on topics like non monogamy, sensuality, where you can go 9 00:00:41.920 --> 00:00:46.560 hang out with other sex nerds, other queer folks, other therapists, people 10 00:00:46.759 --> 00:00:51.119 like you who have been following this podcast or queer sex therapy for a long 11 00:00:51.159 --> 00:00:56.920 time. This platform launches on January first. The best way to get involved 12 00:00:57.039 --> 00:01:00.520 is to follow the newsletter. Because our newsletters, subscribe will get access first, 13 00:01:00.840 --> 00:01:06.040 and there are a limited number of spots for those founding member positions. 14 00:01:06.359 --> 00:01:11.000 So sign up for the newsletter and I really hope to see you on Expansive 15 00:01:11.159 --> 00:01:15.200 ED. I truly can't wait for this to launch and to see what this 16 00:01:15.239 --> 00:01:19.159 looks like and how it comes together. I know it's going to be an 17 00:01:19.200 --> 00:01:23.640 incredibly communal place where everyone can kind of get together no matter where you are, 18 00:01:23.920 --> 00:01:33.920 and really excited to run to it first. I'm Casey Channer and I'm 19 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:38.680 Camille Lewis, and this is safe Word. Safe Word is sex Therapy unhinged 20 00:01:38.760 --> 00:01:42.159 because instead of being a blank slate that's just here to support you, we're 21 00:01:42.200 --> 00:01:45.840 telling you the details on our own sex lives, relationships, identities, and 22 00:01:45.959 --> 00:01:49.680 more. This isn't sex and it's not therapy, but we are a sex 23 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:53.480 therapists and what you hear today may excite you. Each week we tackle a 24 00:01:53.519 --> 00:01:57.120 thame related to sex, relationships, gender and more. This week we're diving 25 00:01:57.120 --> 00:02:28.120 into religious trauma. M m mmm mm hmm, Oklahoma, I knocking. 26 00:02:36.280 --> 00:02:42.919 This episode contains some fairly heavy themes related to trauma, religious trauma, sexual 27 00:02:42.960 --> 00:02:46.599 trauma, and child abuse. So take care of yourself in the way that 28 00:02:46.639 --> 00:02:50.400 you need pause, don't listen to the episode, whatever you need to do 29 00:02:50.960 --> 00:02:55.080 before we jump into what is bound to be a somewhat heavy topic. I 30 00:02:55.120 --> 00:03:00.560 wanted to do a little celebrating with you, Camille about yeah fired by our 31 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:05.400 Spotify wrapped. Yes, I'm just so proud of us. I love that 32 00:03:05.439 --> 00:03:08.039 this is something that we thought about before we even really knew each other, 33 00:03:08.319 --> 00:03:14.039 when we were in our famous ideating stage. This was an idea that you 34 00:03:14.439 --> 00:03:19.759 came up with and was just looking forward to talking with you when we record. 35 00:03:19.800 --> 00:03:25.759 And I just know that I've received so much positive feedback from listeners and 36 00:03:27.000 --> 00:03:31.280 people in my community, and it feels just really good that people are gaining 37 00:03:31.879 --> 00:03:37.400 so much from it, and I'm really proud of us. I had a 38 00:03:37.439 --> 00:03:44.159 really cute story. My cousin is a young queer person and would tell me 39 00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:49.879 that she and her girlfriend would listen to the episodes and then go think about 40 00:03:49.919 --> 00:03:53.080 them separately and then come back together and discuss. Okay, that's the sweetest 41 00:03:53.120 --> 00:03:57.479 thing ever, and I love it. And I was like, yay to 42 00:03:57.560 --> 00:04:02.080 all the baby gays getting the info. How cool is it that you me 43 00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:06.960 an ET producer just get to come here and hang out once a week. 44 00:04:08.080 --> 00:04:12.080 ET just gives us great compliments after each show, whether we've done well or 45 00:04:12.120 --> 00:04:15.680 not, and that it also happens to be helping people who knew that people 46 00:04:15.680 --> 00:04:19.000 in seventy six different countries listen to this. I know to all of you 47 00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:24.040 who are listening. Truly, thank you for sitting in on these unhinged, 48 00:04:24.360 --> 00:04:27.959 really friend hangouts that we have. Thank you for being part of that. 49 00:04:28.360 --> 00:04:31.800 Yeah, the reception has been so positive and letting us be humans in it. 50 00:04:32.279 --> 00:04:35.079 We know we're talking about but sometimes we are working through all of this 51 00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:39.079 too, and it feels like a really wonderful space to be able to do 52 00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:42.560 so so happy to do this with you. I feel like I've learned so 53 00:04:42.639 --> 00:04:46.240 much about you in the last year, and I think this topic is one 54 00:04:46.319 --> 00:04:49.240 that I'm like, I actually don't know what your orientation is to know, 55 00:04:49.600 --> 00:04:57.480 I'm really curious. So what is your history relationship with religious trauma purity culture? 56 00:04:57.720 --> 00:05:00.639 Oh? Yeah, just like a super light question and to start us 57 00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:08.399 off, Sally, you know, I think interestingly, I grew up going 58 00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:14.920 to like Black Baptist churches with my mom. My dad didn't go to church 59 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:16.879 with us growing up. It was very much just kind of the thing that 60 00:05:17.199 --> 00:05:23.240 my brother and I did with my mom pretty regularly. My grandparents were also 61 00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:26.920 really involved in the church, and I liked it from a communal aspect. 62 00:05:26.959 --> 00:05:30.000 You know, I'm from Colorado, I'm from Aurora and went to a public 63 00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:34.560 school there, so it was incredibly actually really really diverse, but that there 64 00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:39.079 were elements of black culture that I wanted to be a part of more. 65 00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:42.319 And my mom is from Chicago and I would grow up going there and I 66 00:05:42.399 --> 00:05:44.839 was just like, this is what I'm trying to this is what I'm trying 67 00:05:44.879 --> 00:05:47.959 to experience, and so I think that for me that that's what church represented 68 00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:51.519 is just like being around black people. And so I was like in the 69 00:05:51.600 --> 00:05:56.399 choir and I was like a junior usher and mostly I was just like trying 70 00:05:56.399 --> 00:06:00.120 to kick it and like see like other people from other schools that I would 71 00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:03.920 never have hung out with, and so that was like kind of it for 72 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:09.720 me, and it was it was never something that I didn't enjoy until I 73 00:06:09.759 --> 00:06:14.279 just stopped caring. Like I used to love going and listening to the music. 74 00:06:14.319 --> 00:06:20.800 I don't ever really remember being truly like moved by a sermon really, 75 00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:26.439 and it never was something that in my house was like drilled into us by 76 00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:28.439 any means. I was just like, yeah, we go to church and 77 00:06:28.480 --> 00:06:30.639 that's what we do. And my dad didn't go, so I was like, 78 00:06:30.680 --> 00:06:33.560 well, I had these examples right of like my mom who goes every 79 00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:36.399 Sunday and my dad, who doesn't go at all. So I kind of 80 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:39.839 was like, okay, so like this is just a thing that people can 81 00:06:40.040 --> 00:06:44.160 choose to do or not do. And I wasn't baptized as a kid. 82 00:06:44.279 --> 00:06:47.199 I was actually baptized when I was in middle school, when I'd decided for 83 00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:51.279 myself that I wanted to join the church. The day after that, I 84 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:56.480 had left this notebook out on my dining room table where it was just like 85 00:06:56.560 --> 00:07:00.839 me and my friends talking shit, like just talking about all kind of like 86 00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:04.319 raunchy middle school stuff. And my dad found it. It was like, 87 00:07:04.839 --> 00:07:09.439 this is right after you decide to join the church, and now you're like, 88 00:07:09.879 --> 00:07:15.800 what is this a baptized exactly exactly so, and I was just like, 89 00:07:15.959 --> 00:07:20.519 God, damn it, it's so weird that baptism didn't completely change you 90 00:07:21.079 --> 00:07:27.279 into a totally different person, right, Yeah, so weird. Since then 91 00:07:27.439 --> 00:07:30.680 I don't go to church. I don't really know what I believe in, 92 00:07:30.079 --> 00:07:33.879 as you know, like I have a brother who converted to Islam about ten 93 00:07:33.959 --> 00:07:39.519 years ago and is incredibly religious and you know, praise five times a day 94 00:07:39.560 --> 00:07:46.240 and goes to getting his doctorate and religious studies. That's over there. I'm 95 00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:48.879 over here and now my dad goes to church twice a week and my mom 96 00:07:48.920 --> 00:07:54.199 goes every week. But it still doesn't feel like something that I was forced 97 00:07:54.319 --> 00:07:58.319 into. I mean, you know, I get the little comments about me 98 00:07:58.399 --> 00:08:03.240 being a heathen, but you know, I welcome this. I love that 99 00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:05.879 though. That's a compliment to you, absolutely, as it should be so 100 00:08:05.959 --> 00:08:09.959 much more community and a culture thing. And it sounds like maybe at some 101 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:13.639 point some of the things that you were really getting out of it you started 102 00:08:13.720 --> 00:08:16.839 getting elsewhere, like yeah, and maybe you didn't need it for that as 103 00:08:16.920 --> 00:08:20.319 much. Maybe the opposite's true for your dad, who knows. Yeah, 104 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:26.120 Like I would still go to church if I ever wanted to, mostly for 105 00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:31.399 the music, Like black gospel music is just so powerful, So I really 106 00:08:31.439 --> 00:08:33.399 liked that part of it. I wish I had seen you in a choir 107 00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:39.559 getting my life. I needn't need to see a video that I'm sure you 108 00:08:39.559 --> 00:08:45.440 were amazing. I need to find one. My experience was. There are 109 00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:48.799 some parallels, but quite opposite to that. Probably at this point most people 110 00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:52.679 know that I went to school originally to become a pastor, and I wasn't 111 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:56.840 forced to do that at that time. Was an authentic choice for me. 112 00:08:56.120 --> 00:09:00.639 I prescribed to the faith of like not knowing, that's my faith. I'm 113 00:09:00.679 --> 00:09:07.120 like, I feel really comfortable not knowing, and that position of humility is 114 00:09:07.679 --> 00:09:11.440 not a neutral place. Actually, I think I was taught growing up that 115 00:09:11.600 --> 00:09:16.080 not being religious, you still are bound to worship other things. And maybe 116 00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:20.279 I do like evangelized queerness now in the same way I used to evangelize Christianity. 117 00:09:20.559 --> 00:09:24.399 Maybe I do worships and things, But I don't think that the position 118 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:28.360 of not knowing is one of neutrality. I don't think it's a passive position. 119 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:31.320 I think it really actively drives me. That being said, I every 120 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:35.960 year was sent to this horrific evangelical Christian camp that has recently been uncovered as 121 00:09:35.960 --> 00:09:39.399 a child sex ring. Actually it's like being all over the news. This 122 00:09:39.519 --> 00:09:45.759 was a place where they were like very much training young girls and boys at 123 00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:50.919 least assumed to be girls and boys to be an incredibly gendered roles based on 124 00:09:50.960 --> 00:09:54.720 a science sex at birth, like women being incredibly submissive, men being very 125 00:09:54.759 --> 00:10:00.080 dominant, and purity culture was I mean, that doesn't even begin to to 126 00:10:00.159 --> 00:10:03.519 describe it. My sister came home from camp one year with a brick that 127 00:10:03.799 --> 00:10:07.039 was a gift that she was supposed to give her future husband to indicate like, 128 00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:11.480 this is how long I've been saving myself for you. I had a 129 00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:16.360 journal to my future husband. His name was David. I would write to 130 00:10:16.440 --> 00:10:20.759 him on the regular and I felt at the time that I had a deep 131 00:10:20.840 --> 00:10:24.840 relationship with God. I talked to God all of the time. I was 132 00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:28.679 heavy into church. I was at church multiple times a week. The community 133 00:10:28.679 --> 00:10:33.519 component was there, but it was like a pretty individualistic version of religion. 134 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:39.519 And yeah, I felt immense amount of shame around anything related to sexuality. 135 00:10:41.080 --> 00:10:46.440 I remember one summer I came home from this camp where they basically said, 136 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:48.799 you know, most people go to hell unless you, of course, accept 137 00:10:48.919 --> 00:10:52.200 Jesus as your savior and your sins are washed away. And I'd come home 138 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:54.960 from this camp where I was told like, if you hear a swear word, 139 00:10:56.519 --> 00:10:58.399 you will go to hell. And my mom had thrown me this little 140 00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:03.639 camp ice party with my friends and they were playing music on the radio and 141 00:11:03.679 --> 00:11:07.240 there was a swear word and I ran to the bathroom. I'm like twelve 142 00:11:07.320 --> 00:11:11.399 years old, and I just shut the door and I cried, and I 143 00:11:11.440 --> 00:11:13.200 wouldn't let anyone in because I was so worried that I was going to hear 144 00:11:13.240 --> 00:11:16.120 them swear, and I just cried, and I didn't know where to go. 145 00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:20.799 I didn't know what to do. I couldn't like, I couldn't reconcile 146 00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:24.000 all of these things and yet worked on me. I mean I chose to 147 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:26.799 go to a school where I literally signed a document that said I wouldn't be 148 00:11:26.840 --> 00:11:31.600 gay and had a full mental breakdown, I mean not surprisingly after all of 149 00:11:31.639 --> 00:11:37.360 that, Like, I was in very, very sick person until until I 150 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:43.720 started reading Freud, actually until I started reading Freud and his work in helping 151 00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:50.600 me understand that, like for many people, the purpose of religion is for 152 00:11:50.679 --> 00:11:56.600 attachment. It's to find an identity somewhere when you can't find it in yourself 153 00:11:56.720 --> 00:12:00.919 or when you're not getting adequate mirroring. And like I respect to people who 154 00:12:00.960 --> 00:12:05.840 practice religion in a way that is social justice oriented and that works for them, 155 00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:11.360 total respect for that. I think it came to conceptualize evangelical Christianity as 156 00:12:11.639 --> 00:12:18.159 a coping skill for generational trauma. And once I understood my religious beliefs that 157 00:12:18.200 --> 00:12:22.200 way, I like opened up the door to start seeing myself for the person 158 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:26.799 I was is queer and slowly sort of have come to a new ideology around 159 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:35.279 psychology and sociology and now understand my extremism essentially being an occult as a way 160 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:39.600 of trying to get needs met when there were a lot of unmet needs. 161 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:43.840 I feel like, even though I knew most of this about you, it 162 00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:50.039 still feels really hurtful to hear like I feel like so much pain for you, 163 00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:56.159 and like anger and wanting to just like hug you and protect you from 164 00:12:56.200 --> 00:13:00.480 anything. I would love a hug and I love her protective are of me. 165 00:13:00.960 --> 00:13:05.000 But here's the good news, Like, I do not struggle with remaining 166 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:09.480 symptoms of purity culture anymore after a decade of very intense work, So the 167 00:13:09.559 --> 00:13:11.480 shit like does not have to have a hold on you for your whole life. 168 00:13:11.480 --> 00:13:15.679 And that's why I'm so glad we're going to be talking about this and 169 00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:20.519 answering questions from folks who I think are really worried about how long they'll have 170 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:26.600 to struggle with the remnants of this shit. I don't know before we dive 171 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:31.559 into these questions, there's something that is like pulling me to talk more about 172 00:13:31.639 --> 00:13:37.519 you and I and like our relationships with religion and experience. So I don't 173 00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:41.080 know, how do you feel about No, I feel the same way a 174 00:13:41.559 --> 00:13:45.679 little more. Yeah, doesn't feel right to dive into questions yet, and 175 00:13:45.720 --> 00:13:48.159 maybe we'll get there. Maybe what brought this up is like the name of 176 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:52.000 your future husband because I dated this guy with the same name. He broke 177 00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:58.600 up with me because he wanted to go into being a pastor actually in college 178 00:13:58.840 --> 00:14:05.639 and was wild in terms of shame around sex. I never really felt it 179 00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:11.159 from a religious perspective because I think that rather than they're being like a you 180 00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:13.159 will go to hell if you do these things, it was just like sex 181 00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:16.600 is not a thing, you know. It was like it just wasn't really 182 00:14:16.679 --> 00:14:20.840 talked about. Identity wasn't really talked about. I went to all black churches 183 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:24.559 and all black spaces, it wasn't really talked about at all. I think 184 00:14:24.559 --> 00:14:26.679 that that was the first time that I felt shame for being a sexual person. 185 00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:31.519 He was literally like, I don't want to be with you because I 186 00:14:31.559 --> 00:14:35.320 can't have I need to be celibate, and you are a temptation to me. 187 00:14:35.840 --> 00:14:39.120 And I was like, by the way, I was studying abroad in 188 00:14:39.159 --> 00:14:41.720 Africa at the time, and he called me. And it was a really, 189 00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:45.840 really terrible experience for me in general. I was having a really hard 190 00:14:45.879 --> 00:14:48.399 time in my study abroad experience and he knew that, and he called me, 191 00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:52.200 and I was walking to class and he's like, yeah, like it's 192 00:14:52.279 --> 00:14:56.480 over, like I need like a pious woman or something. And I was 193 00:14:56.519 --> 00:15:01.039 just like, h you're such a temptation when you're literally a continent away, 194 00:15:01.080 --> 00:15:07.120 like that language around wild people being a temptation. It's just in itself fucked 195 00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:11.799 up. And just this whole thing reminds me like religious trauma is perpetrated by 196 00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:15.960 people. It is perpetrated by people. It is relational trauma at the end 197 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:18.639 of the day, and you don't have to be somebody who goes to church 198 00:15:18.759 --> 00:15:22.960 or a particular kind of church to have experienced it, because it's people that 199 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:26.759 perpetrate it. Oh that is such a good point. Yeah, exactly, 200 00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:28.960 Like and I was just like, wait, what do you mean. I 201 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:33.080 was like okay, And like for me, I was ay. I was 202 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:37.799 across the world, so it's not like there was I like, I'm like, 203 00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:39.360 I'm not a threat to you over here, and like I also really 204 00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:43.080 cared about him, so I was like well we could. Why don't we 205 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:46.080 talk about like what this looks like like? Even then, when I was 206 00:15:46.120 --> 00:15:48.840 like twenty or twenty one years old, I was like, well, why 207 00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:52.039 don't we like talk about this because if we need to like rethink what sex 208 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:54.440 looks like. Like I was like, okay, like you were a therapist, 209 00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:56.960 yeah, literally, and it was like and he was like no, 210 00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:00.639 bye, And I was just like, you know what I bet happened. 211 00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:04.440 This is like a thousand percent of projection. But I've just been in these 212 00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:11.279 conversations, like sitting down with other Christian mentors, other evangelical mentors, who 213 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:15.200 are like, I really need you to reevaluate this relationship you're in with Camille. 214 00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:18.480 It really feels like it's pulling you away from God. And like I 215 00:16:18.519 --> 00:16:22.720 can just imagine somebody feeding that to him and him going into that conversation being 216 00:16:22.759 --> 00:16:26.159 like this is it. This is what I have to do. Yeah, 217 00:16:26.240 --> 00:16:29.840 yeah, like this is an impediment to my relationship with God. I'll sever 218 00:16:29.960 --> 00:16:34.000 the limb immediately. And I was just like, Okay, I guess I 219 00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:38.440 just got dumb, right, And there's no well, first, like Camille, 220 00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:45.279 fuck, Like that's that's awful and so confusing and so shitty. Yeah, 221 00:16:45.320 --> 00:16:47.320 I think that that's the first time I was like, oh, am, 222 00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:49.279 I like a slut, like and not in a good way, because 223 00:16:49.320 --> 00:16:52.919 like now I definitely and now I like, it's like one of my favorite 224 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:56.279 things about myself. But I was like, oh my god, like I 225 00:16:56.320 --> 00:17:00.080 am, like I'm bad for a person because of this, right, And 226 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:03.000 that's the shame, right, It's like you don't have to have those beliefs 227 00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:07.240 to feel shame as a result of purity culture just running rampant generally. I 228 00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:12.799 have a similar story. I was dating a person, a man in seminary, 229 00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:18.240 and we were taking it extremely slow because both of us believed that that 230 00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:22.640 was the right way to do things. And before we had even kissed, 231 00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:26.480 he asked me to be his girlfriend. And this will tell you about my 232 00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:30.279 mindset at the time. I said, okay, before you asked me that 233 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:34.720 there's something I need to confess to you, and I told him about my 234 00:17:34.960 --> 00:17:38.720 sexual assault that i'd experienced a few months prior, and he never spoke to 235 00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:42.799 me again and he didn't want to date me at that. Yeah. Yeah, 236 00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:48.240 it was like, yeah, I mean the same feeling that you just 237 00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:51.559 described, Like I had no idea how bad. This made me, how 238 00:17:52.279 --> 00:17:59.680 undesirable, how this could overshadow every other part of me that's good and that 239 00:18:00.200 --> 00:18:07.119 this person was drawn to It's just gaslighting. Gosh, like that it's unfathomable, 240 00:18:07.720 --> 00:18:11.799 is really unfathomable. And I think that that story happens for so many 241 00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:18.519 people of like what sharing assault will mean for someone, I think particularly for 242 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:22.920 men and religious men of like well like sounds like like you know, like 243 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:29.079 the damaged goods type of the damage narrative. Yeah, well, that's the 244 00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:33.599 virginity narrative too, right, It's like, if you don't have your virginity, 245 00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:37.640 then your damaged goods. As if virginity is real, which we know 246 00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:42.240 that it's not. It is not real. I'm so sorry that is Oh, 247 00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:48.400 that's just like so unbelievably cruel. And I think that that's what happens, 248 00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:52.519 like when I think about the rigidity of the way in which some people 249 00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:59.720 practice religion of yeah, like completely not in the gray, not considering the 250 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:04.160 multitude and the variance that everybody possesses and adjust being like this is correct and 251 00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:07.640 this is not correct. My brother and I like he is like the joy 252 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:11.359 in my life, and I feel like we've had like so many ruptures as 253 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:15.640 a result. He was asking me. He was like, so, like, 254 00:19:15.720 --> 00:19:18.319 what's the difference between a sex therapist and a sex coach? And I 255 00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:22.519 was telling him because he recently got married in like an Islamic tradition and some 256 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:25.880 things that he was struggling with, right, And I was like curious. 257 00:19:25.960 --> 00:19:27.920 I was like, you know, i'd be curious about like what Islam tells 258 00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:33.759 you about about sex. And I was trying to just like be curious about 259 00:19:33.799 --> 00:19:40.039 religious shame. And he was so mad at me for saying for even asking, 260 00:19:40.359 --> 00:19:42.119 and he got like he was just like, you could never work with 261 00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:45.440 a religious client. And I was just like, that's interesting. I work 262 00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:49.400 with tons of religious clients, right, And that's the question you would one 263 00:19:49.480 --> 00:19:52.920 question that you would absolutely ask them anybody. I was like, this is 264 00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:56.240 literally what I would do in my job. I would be curious about shame 265 00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:02.240 because that is inextricably linked for so many people to sex. So be asking 266 00:20:02.279 --> 00:20:07.480 about how does this very salient part of your identity view this thing is their 267 00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:11.359 shame around it, because that could like, let's look at it. I 268 00:20:11.480 --> 00:20:15.279 wasn't even like, well, because you're Muslim, this means that this and 269 00:20:15.400 --> 00:20:17.559 you need to not be Like I was just like, well, I'd like 270 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:19.359 tell me a little bit more about He's like, wow, you like you 271 00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:23.640 Like he was pissed, and I was just like, okay, big rupture. 272 00:20:23.880 --> 00:20:27.680 I feel like like within certain religions, as you get to the more 273 00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:33.839 extreme ends of them, what makes them so similar to cults or cults is 274 00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:38.799 that they're teaching you apologetics, meaning they are teaching you how you should react 275 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:45.039 in what you should say when anybody does anything that even resembles attacking the belief 276 00:20:45.079 --> 00:20:49.000 system or attacking the group. Right So, literally, I was trained at 277 00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:55.400 these camps if anyone were to suggest to me that Jesus was not the way 278 00:20:55.400 --> 00:21:00.079 the truth in the life, how to how to as a Christian soul to 279 00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:04.079 defend myself against those questions, right like, because the more could is ship 280 00:21:04.119 --> 00:21:08.039 becomes more easily threatened there. So I don't know, I wonder if any 281 00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:12.680 of that's going on, you know, this ideology of anyone who is questioning 282 00:21:12.680 --> 00:21:18.599 it is against me automatically. Yeah, I think that that was really helpful 283 00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:21.839 to hear, I think, and it's hard. I think it was a 284 00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:25.680 good and I also have to recognize that the judgments and myself that come up 285 00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:29.720 when people are are quite religious, and I think that what it is because 286 00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:33.640 of like my relationship with my brother, and there's like different parts of his 287 00:21:33.720 --> 00:21:37.759 identity that I truly feel like shifted with this. And I think that to 288 00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:41.960 your point about like finding community, like I do believe that Islam probably saved 289 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:48.799 his life in a number of ways. And I also feel like he has 290 00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:52.039 changed so dramatically that I feel like I'm more in it, And so I'm 291 00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:56.559 I have to check my hyper criticism of people like I think that. You 292 00:21:56.559 --> 00:22:00.920 know, it's it's hard for me too. I think religion, people who 293 00:22:00.039 --> 00:22:07.440 find themselves to be religious, it confuses me. Well, it's not like 294 00:22:07.599 --> 00:22:11.480 faith is never to me, that's my opinion. But like faith is never 295 00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:17.880 the issue. It's how that faith gets enacted into harm that's the issue. 296 00:22:17.880 --> 00:22:19.359 It's not the faith. So there are many many people for whom faith is 297 00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:23.039 life saving. In fact, I've had many many queer clients who, upon 298 00:22:23.240 --> 00:22:30.359 finding really queer affirming religious community, yeah, are more themselves than ever. 299 00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:36.119 So so yeah, we're talking about is extremism, We're not talking about faith. 300 00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:40.160 Your story with your brother reminds me of something else that I think is 301 00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:44.519 so pervasive with religious trauma is the splitting off of the self. You have 302 00:22:44.599 --> 00:22:48.079 now opted into, or been pulled into, or forced into this thing that 303 00:22:48.200 --> 00:22:51.920 is so rigid, and the only way you can stay there is to lose 304 00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:56.160 other parts of yourself. Right, So, your boyfriend, who probably was 305 00:22:56.160 --> 00:22:59.680 really into you, that was one part of him, probably also really into 306 00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:03.920 religion. They made him choose one part of himself, and he chose religion. 307 00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:08.480 Your brother loves his family, deeply cares about you, deeply cares about 308 00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:11.480 this religion that says, well, you can't have both in the same way, 309 00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:17.359 and and defaults to religion or not even defaults, is trained to choose 310 00:23:17.359 --> 00:23:22.359 religion. And that's what happened to me too. I literally split the queer 311 00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:26.960 part of myself off for two decades, and because it precluded me, I 312 00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:30.599 thought it precluded me from being part of this thing that I thought was saving 313 00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:36.039 my life. So it's that splitting off that it teaches us to do, 314 00:23:36.119 --> 00:23:40.279 and that we keep doing sometimes even when we're out of it. I think 315 00:23:40.279 --> 00:23:44.039 that like all of us have like different sorts of rituals and different sorts of 316 00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:47.319 things that make us cling to, like hope, I'm learning to be, 317 00:23:47.319 --> 00:23:51.519 Like, what does spirituality look like for me? I wonder if what you 318 00:23:51.640 --> 00:23:56.000 just said is a parallel between religious trauma and sexual trauma, because when you've 319 00:23:56.039 --> 00:24:03.079 experienced trauma in either of those realms, one symptom might be like over generalizing 320 00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:06.599 that all of it will be bad or dangerous, and that can be a 321 00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:10.680 trauma reaction, right, Like that sort of extreme way of labeling and thinking. 322 00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:14.039 The first stage of my recovery was all religion is bad. I hate 323 00:24:14.039 --> 00:24:17.079 everyone who's religious? How Stage one? Yeah, right for sure? Stage 324 00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:22.359 two, three, four is I see nuance now, I've seen how life 325 00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:25.240 giving it can be. I even see how life giving at times it was 326 00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:27.799 for me, and I think that can be true of all kinds of types 327 00:24:27.799 --> 00:24:33.839 of trauma. Yeah, nuance, baby, that's the name of the game. 328 00:24:37.039 --> 00:24:41.039 So there is a question that says it's asking for tips on navigating partnership 329 00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:47.680 with someone who is recovering from purity culture. Yeah, what do you think? 330 00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:52.480 I don't know. The phrase purity culture is relatively new to me. 331 00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:56.599 When I think of that, I think of like white evangelical Christians, So 332 00:24:56.759 --> 00:25:00.319 I think that's mainly what it refers to. Yeah, Yeah, think of 333 00:25:00.359 --> 00:25:07.039 a chastity belt. I guess my initial response would be that acknowledgement is just 334 00:25:07.079 --> 00:25:10.880 a really big part of I think, any sort of recovery, if you 335 00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:14.240 want to use that language of just like I know that this is happening for 336 00:25:14.319 --> 00:25:18.160 you. I don't know that it requires let me jump in and fix this. 337 00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:23.759 Let me like let's like I think sometimes when we feel confused or when 338 00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:26.599 we feel hurting for someone, we want to throw the book at it, 339 00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:29.920 so to speak. We want to put a bunch of resources in. We 340 00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:33.079 want to just like okay, like everything I read this, I have this, 341 00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:36.119 I couldn't do this. And I think rather than that, just being 342 00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:41.160 like I know that this is something that is real for you, and like 343 00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:44.720 when we need to talk about it, let's talk about it, and I 344 00:25:44.759 --> 00:25:48.720 think integrating it into your relationship in a way that doesn't feel like God, 345 00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:53.240 hold my breath because we have to have the tough conversation and rather like yeah, 346 00:25:53.240 --> 00:25:56.759 like when we were watching that movie, my first thought was like, 347 00:25:56.759 --> 00:25:59.559 oh my gosh, I need to look away because there was nudity on screen, 348 00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:03.039 and being like okay, yeah, so what does that feel like to 349 00:26:03.079 --> 00:26:06.640 have that initial reaction and what did you deal, how did you change that 350 00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:10.519 reaction or how does it feel now? Or I think you know, I 351 00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:15.559 think also just patience, like to have conversations with this person and to have 352 00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:22.519 experiences with this person that are like really full, and I think that there 353 00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:26.920 are lots of different ways that you can really affirm that part of them. 354 00:26:26.920 --> 00:26:32.359 And I think maybe part of it is also like not demonizing the religion and 355 00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:36.599 not being like well fuck this and fuck everybody who believes this, and like, 356 00:26:36.680 --> 00:26:38.720 let's like it could maybe look like okay, well what parts of that 357 00:26:40.200 --> 00:26:42.839 feel good to you? And maybe you like the ritual of doing something on 358 00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:48.160 a Sunday morning. What can we do on Sunday morning because now that maybe 359 00:26:48.200 --> 00:26:52.039 I have a gap in my time there, or how do we form different 360 00:26:52.039 --> 00:26:56.279 communities? I love that it reminds me when I walked away from religion, 361 00:26:56.759 --> 00:27:00.440 I missed the morning routine of my devotional and I started doing morning tarot card 362 00:27:00.519 --> 00:27:03.680 ratings for myself and it was it was yeah, I mean, there were 363 00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:07.559 there are parts of it that genuinely worked for me. So I love the 364 00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:11.559 idea of validating that not throwing out the baby with the bathwater necessarily. I 365 00:27:11.559 --> 00:27:15.799 think two in purity culture shows up in a relationship. There might be partners 366 00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:17.920 who are like, yeah, I'm not really affected by that, but I 367 00:27:17.960 --> 00:27:22.759 think in my experience working with queer folks, most folks, it affects a 368 00:27:22.839 --> 00:27:27.200 partner because they've grown up in that same error and it reminds them of their 369 00:27:27.200 --> 00:27:32.640 own experiences. Or potentially maybe you're navigating shame around your queerness that you don't 370 00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:36.839 define as purity culture related shame, and your partner's bringing in a ton of 371 00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:40.720 shame from purity culture around their queerness, and now you're confronting that shame around 372 00:27:40.759 --> 00:27:45.240 your queerness again. So it can play out in these relational ways, and 373 00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:51.599 my advice there would be take your reactions and feelings about that seriously, but 374 00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:56.920 not personally meaning that. Let's say that you have queer sex with your partner, 375 00:27:57.119 --> 00:28:02.160 or maybe you of your relationship and you have some hot a mo anogma 376 00:28:02.200 --> 00:28:07.839 sex and maybe your partner like one part of them is like I'm here for 377 00:28:07.880 --> 00:28:11.720 this, and that part that's so affected by religious trauma is like, I'm 378 00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:15.920 having a really negative reaction to what we just did. Take your feeling about 379 00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:19.480 that seriously. You're allowed to feel hurt by that. You're allowed to feel 380 00:28:19.519 --> 00:28:23.720 disappointed by that reaction. And also, it isn't about you like it is 381 00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:27.440 about trauma. It's not because the sex was bad. It's not because you're 382 00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:33.200 bad. If you can both take your feeling seriously but name it for what 383 00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:37.599 it is, call it religious trauma, then I think there's a lot of 384 00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:44.920 hope for navigating that within a relationship. Why don't I want intimacy when I'm 385 00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:48.160 on my period because this is a religious trauma episode. I'll take it from 386 00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:52.759 that lens. But also I just want to validate that, like horimonally, 387 00:28:52.079 --> 00:28:56.359 you might not want task sex when you're on your period because you're not interested 388 00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:00.279 in it from a hormonal perspective. I think also there's been a lot of 389 00:29:00.359 --> 00:29:06.759 language around periods, around menstruation and being clean or not, and I think 390 00:29:06.759 --> 00:29:10.920 that that goes in line with purity culture, being clean or not clean or 391 00:29:10.920 --> 00:29:15.319 dirty. I think already having like shame around bodies, this person has a 392 00:29:15.400 --> 00:29:19.359 volva and being like already, you know, we're told a cross your legs, 393 00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:22.480 don't look at that part of yourself, don't touch that part of yourself. 394 00:29:22.519 --> 00:29:27.559 So when it's it smells bad, it looks weird. Yeah, exactly. 395 00:29:27.599 --> 00:29:30.440 It smells bad, it looks weird, but it does this weird thing. 396 00:29:30.839 --> 00:29:37.680 When we have internalize these messages about dirtiness, that is not what is 397 00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:41.440 going to make us feel most sexy. If it's like this is disgusting to 398 00:29:41.680 --> 00:29:45.240 me, my partners or partners are also going to find it really disgusting. 399 00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:48.799 And why would anyone want to do this. I don't want to touch myself, 400 00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:52.640 I don't want to look at myself. I feel all of these things. 401 00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:57.480 So I think that that can really affect how you see yourself. And 402 00:29:57.799 --> 00:30:03.160 I think when self confidence is really like waning, it feels hard to reach 403 00:30:03.160 --> 00:30:08.079 for intimacy with somebody else, right, And those thoughts might not even be 404 00:30:08.119 --> 00:30:14.920 conscious. You might not be actively thinking my period is disgusting. But religious 405 00:30:14.920 --> 00:30:17.359 trauma, like any other trauma, doesn't just live in the thoughts, or 406 00:30:17.480 --> 00:30:19.440 it also lives in the body. So you might logically now be in a 407 00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:22.599 place where you like, I've embraced my period. I know it's not disgusting, 408 00:30:22.599 --> 00:30:27.240 but your body might still be holding the shame surrounding it. So so 409 00:30:27.279 --> 00:30:32.160 if you're confused about why, it might be because your body's holding onto some 410 00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:36.039 of that trauma. I also just as a caveat here, I have a 411 00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:41.279 friend who is incredibly sex positive, does not like period sex and has sort 412 00:30:41.319 --> 00:30:45.000 of been on her own journey around realizing like, liking period sex isn't the 413 00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:52.079 definition of sex positivity. So don't define your journey of recovery from purity culture 414 00:30:52.160 --> 00:30:56.920 as liking period sex or many people who are like super sex positive who are 415 00:30:56.960 --> 00:31:00.400 like, yeah, this is like not my thing, and sex positivity isn't 416 00:31:00.519 --> 00:31:03.799 doesn't mean you say yes everything. Yeah, it means you know when to 417 00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:08.559 say yes to things. So yeah, that's a good point that I think 418 00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:11.839 that helps check something in me. Like I feel like when I have sex 419 00:31:11.880 --> 00:31:17.119 with men, I will ask them what's your thoughts on period sex? And 420 00:31:17.440 --> 00:31:19.440 if they say like no, I'm like, oh fuck you, like you 421 00:31:19.599 --> 00:31:26.240 idiot, you don't know anything, you fucking misogynists and you're a little boy 422 00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:30.160 or whatever. I don't have that reaction too, even after what I just 423 00:31:30.200 --> 00:31:33.559 said. So maybe we both need to check ourselves. I mean we do, 424 00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:37.079 but I think also we can check them first. Yeah, well yes, 425 00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:41.759 yeah, because I'm like, well, like, do you not like 426 00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:47.000 it? Because you know, periods have been shamed and you think that they're 427 00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:52.559 gross or do you find it to just be a texture thing or is it 428 00:31:52.599 --> 00:31:56.680 like it can get messy, but sex can get messy. So you know 429 00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:05.640 what steps should I take to work through religious trauma? Because religious trauma takes 430 00:32:05.640 --> 00:32:09.119 place in the context of relationships with human beings. I really believe that, 431 00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:15.680 like impactful recovery takes place in relationships with human beings. And if you can 432 00:32:15.759 --> 00:32:20.400 find other people who were disenfranchised in the same way that you were, like 433 00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:25.880 I found so much healing from queer people who are ex evangelicals, Like that 434 00:32:27.079 --> 00:32:30.599 is where my healing originated, where we could all talked about this fucked up 435 00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:36.920 shit together. And also all trauma, most trauma, it doesn't live in 436 00:32:36.920 --> 00:32:39.319 our brain in a narrative form, right, We can't just pull a story 437 00:32:39.359 --> 00:32:43.359 about it out of nowhere. But as we can learn to tell our stories 438 00:32:43.640 --> 00:32:47.599 and piece that language together, we can heal our brains. So by actively 439 00:32:47.640 --> 00:32:51.480 telling your story to people who know how to listen, who you can trust 440 00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:54.440 to respond the way that you need to, I think that's an incredibly powerful 441 00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:58.359 way. And obviously therapy is an option for that too. I mean, 442 00:32:58.440 --> 00:33:01.200 I just second everything that you see. I think that like healing in community 443 00:33:01.319 --> 00:33:06.720 is just really essential. And I think that that is also a big loss 444 00:33:06.759 --> 00:33:10.440 that people can experience when they move away from particular practice of religion, and 445 00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:15.920 so to find community elsewhere that validates it, that interrogates it, I think 446 00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:22.359 can be really powerful. And I think just acknowledging to yourself that it doesn't 447 00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:24.359 mean that, like you have identified it so you wake up the next day 448 00:33:24.359 --> 00:33:28.920 and it is all washed away, and just being like this might be something 449 00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:34.680 that I contend with for a while and I can acknowledge to be true for 450 00:33:34.759 --> 00:33:39.359 me in this moment, and I'm seeking support around it because you deserve too. 451 00:33:39.920 --> 00:33:44.279 And unlike those religious contacts that said, like, you can't have multiple 452 00:33:44.319 --> 00:33:47.160 parts of yourselves, you have to choose this one, recovery, looks like 453 00:33:47.240 --> 00:33:52.319 I do have multiple parts of myself and one part feels really ashamed about this 454 00:33:52.599 --> 00:33:54.880 sex and one part is really fucking into it, and I'm allowed to have 455 00:33:55.039 --> 00:33:59.119 both of those in a way that I wasn't allowed to when I was in 456 00:33:59.160 --> 00:34:06.839 this context, and claiming that can be really empowering. How do you overcome 457 00:34:07.240 --> 00:34:09.920 And I think this relates to the concept of virginity, So maybe I'll ask 458 00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:14.679 these to you both at the same time, how do I overcome the feeling 459 00:34:14.760 --> 00:34:21.840 of giving myself away and reframe the concept of virginity. M I don't know. 460 00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:23.159 As I worked with my thoughts on this, I have like a lot 461 00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:27.760 of things coming up because you know, like that happens, and like traditional 462 00:34:27.760 --> 00:34:30.880 wedding ceremonies as well of like in a very gendered way, a father giving 463 00:34:30.920 --> 00:34:35.840 away a daughter and being like, this is now for you. You own 464 00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:39.760 lists now. And I think of like I think about agency, I think 465 00:34:39.800 --> 00:34:45.599 about making decisions that feel thoughtful, as decisions that sometimes don't feel thoughtful, 466 00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:51.239 but that you are allowed to make decisions about your life that don't have to 467 00:34:51.480 --> 00:34:55.360 mean something just because they have been assigned meaning in the past. With the 468 00:34:55.400 --> 00:35:00.039 concept of virginity, of thinking it not as a law us as something that 469 00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:04.840 you have to be Like, I have this really delicate thing that is only 470 00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:12.159 defined as being lost by a very rigid like definition of what intercourse is. 471 00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:15.239 And even when I think back to the first time I had sex, it 472 00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:19.480 didn't feel that deep to me, and I know that that's not everybody's experienced, 473 00:35:19.480 --> 00:35:21.920 but I was just like, I don't know, I do shit that 474 00:35:21.960 --> 00:35:24.960 I've never done before. All the time because I'm a teenager. So I'm 475 00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:29.760 just gonna do this thing, I guess, and I change your life. 476 00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:31.639 It doesn't have to change your life at all. And it didn't. Like 477 00:35:31.719 --> 00:35:36.960 I think that I was expecting the next morning or next day to be like, 478 00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:38.360 I can't believe I've done this thing, and I was just like, 479 00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:42.719 all right, cool whatever, like, but I know that that's not everyone's 480 00:35:42.719 --> 00:35:45.239 experience, So I think that it is, like I think it is part 481 00:35:45.280 --> 00:35:50.159 of it is like looking at what your experience around that is and being like 482 00:35:50.599 --> 00:35:53.719 I have done something new, and similarly to when I do new things, 483 00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:59.239 like how do I acknowledge that? For myself? I love that metaphor of 484 00:35:59.360 --> 00:36:01.960 comparing it to other new things, like what if every time? But if 485 00:36:01.960 --> 00:36:06.920 you were a dancer and every time you did a dance, somebody conceptualized it 486 00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:09.840 as as losing a part of yourself. Yeah, yeah, so fucking weird 487 00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:14.360 when you put it that way. Your body, your heart, your soul, 488 00:36:15.320 --> 00:36:17.559 your penis, your vulva, whatever is not a zero sum game, 489 00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:22.199 Like it is not a zero sum game. My hope would be that you 490 00:36:22.239 --> 00:36:25.639 know, if you're listening to this episode and still struggling around the idea of 491 00:36:25.719 --> 00:36:30.159 virginity, to like do a little bit of a dive into the history of 492 00:36:30.559 --> 00:36:37.880 what virginity is. The concept was created by people to control people, to 493 00:36:37.400 --> 00:36:42.960 place a value, sometimes even a dollar or property value on people. People 494 00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:45.400 that have not even figured out really how to accurately define it, because for 495 00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:49.639 so long it was defined as the breaking of the hymen, which we know 496 00:36:49.800 --> 00:36:54.400 can happen from walking. There are so many weird, arbitrary loopholes and the 497 00:36:54.400 --> 00:37:00.960 way that's certain religions define virginity where we've you had an eye to talking about, 498 00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:05.480 like the Mormon concept of virginity, and you tellvis, tell me what 499 00:37:05.599 --> 00:37:07.199 you tell them, what you told me? I can't remember the name, 500 00:37:07.239 --> 00:37:12.159 and I'm dying, bt. Do you know this so oking? Soaking? 501 00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:15.360 I think it's soaking. I think about it more because I saw it once 502 00:37:15.400 --> 00:37:17.599 on TikTok and now TikTok makes all these parodies of it. It's like the 503 00:37:17.639 --> 00:37:23.280 concept of like someone the penis puts their penis into some into the vagina, 504 00:37:23.400 --> 00:37:29.639 but doesn't move, like you're not allowed to like us, that's sinful. 505 00:37:30.199 --> 00:37:35.719 Yeah, maybe somebody would like rock the bed for them, And I'm like, 506 00:37:36.199 --> 00:37:38.599 y'all don't think that this is a little bit queer that you like are 507 00:37:38.639 --> 00:37:44.800 having your homeboy like rock you, um, so that you can like not 508 00:37:44.920 --> 00:37:49.159 have sex type vibes. I think similar to like you know when people are 509 00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:52.639 like anal isn't it or oral sex and just be like, I'm I'm a 510 00:37:52.719 --> 00:37:59.000 virgin. I've only done bunch of blow jobs. Yeah yeah, yeah, 511 00:37:59.039 --> 00:38:00.280 I mean like, I don't know, I love that. I think it's 512 00:38:00.280 --> 00:38:05.559 so I love I just the image of soaking. It's so fun to me. 513 00:38:06.119 --> 00:38:12.960 It just tickles me. Virginity is a state of mind. Um, 514 00:38:13.079 --> 00:38:15.400 I don't know, I don't even know. It's it's not real moral, 515 00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:19.800 it's notorious, it's not real. It's not maybe call it, um i've 516 00:38:19.800 --> 00:38:23.079 heard sexual debut, yeah, like or you don't even need a word for 517 00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:27.400 it, yeah, or just like pat sex for the first time, that's 518 00:38:27.440 --> 00:38:30.760 really like right, or the first time I had sex, the first time 519 00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:32.480 I had intercourse, the first time I'm made out. You know. We 520 00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:37.599 think about things like that, like my first kiss isn't like you'll never have 521 00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:42.280 a kiss to give again, although yeah, sometimes that was like that. 522 00:38:42.559 --> 00:38:52.920 Yeah, although I think about other people I kissed on the playground stories too. 523 00:38:52.079 --> 00:38:54.599 I know, I feel like I was acting up and I just I'm 524 00:38:54.639 --> 00:38:58.840 like, what, I feel like I was out there. I'm like, 525 00:38:58.880 --> 00:39:00.480 do most kids like kiss each other on the playground? Or was that just 526 00:39:00.920 --> 00:39:05.119 me and the people I was kissing? No, you're not. You're not 527 00:39:05.159 --> 00:39:07.119 the only one. You're not the only one. Yeah, I was. 528 00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:15.119 I was wildent on the Juncle Gym for sure, and haven't stopped since. 529 00:39:15.159 --> 00:39:17.639 I wish I had known that version of you. Although, yes, I 530 00:39:17.679 --> 00:39:21.920 guess I still kind of do you still do? Cool? Good episode? 531 00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:28.239 Fun? Yeah, weirdly fun, given how yeah dark it has gotten at 532 00:39:28.280 --> 00:39:31.079 times. Yeah, thanks for sticking with us on this journey, listeners. 533 00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:38.719 This week's safe word is Labradoodle from Magnus. Thank you. Also, Magnus 534 00:39:38.880 --> 00:39:45.199 is a good safe word. It reminds me of Matilda. What I think 535 00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:47.800 Matilda's dad was named Magnus. That is a great movie. Great movie, 536 00:39:49.519 --> 00:39:57.639 but phenominal film. Fuck Matilda, all right, Thanks Magnus. Safe Word 537 00:39:57.679 --> 00:40:00.320 is hosted by Casey Tanner and Camille Lewis and produced by Coordinator at E J. 538 00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:05.119 Townsend. Our theme song is written and performed by Emma Jane and Toria 539 00:40:05.199 --> 00:40:07.800 Rainey. To support the show, please follow us on Spotify and take a 540 00:40:07.840 --> 00:40:12.679 moment right now to give us five stars. We also love free of reviews 541 00:40:12.840 --> 00:40:17.400 on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Every other week we put 542 00:40:17.400 --> 00:40:22.480 a question box out on Instagram, giving you the opportunity to ask for advice 543 00:40:22.840 --> 00:40:27.199 on the topic at hand. To submit long form questions in writing or in 544 00:40:27.239 --> 00:40:30.039 your own voice, go to the Safe Word or Queer Sex Therapy Instagram page 545 00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:34.760 and click on our link tree in the bio to write out those long form 546 00:40:34.880 --> 00:40:39.360 questions. If anything today made you curious about seeking support, the Expansive Group 547 00:40:39.400 --> 00:40:44.440 has a great team of therapists and mentors to discuss challenges you might be facing. 548 00:40:44.920 --> 00:40:47.559 Go to the Expansivegroup dot com, submit a contact form and we'll help 549 00:40:47.599 --> 00:40:52.000 you get connected. Four behind the scenes look at safe Word in podcast updates, 550 00:40:52.039 --> 00:40:55.840 find us on Instagram at safe Word Pod. We'll be back in two 551 00:40:55.920 --> 00:40:58.840 weeks with a new episode of Safe Word