WEBVTT

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Good morning, friends and friends,
I am Julio Pérez and this is the

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train of life, a radio adventure
along the routes of the heart. I

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want to invite you to travel with
me and dream together in a better world,

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a different world where men and women
of good will can live in peace

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and freedom. The train of life
is a magaxine of good news and hope.

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This is a radio time specially designed
for people like you and like so

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many truth seekers, of the only
truth that can make us authentic free come

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I invite you to travel with us
on the safest train of all, which

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will definitely take you to safe harbour. This is the train of life.

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Well, very good morning, Spain, bon day, friends, from this

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corner of the Iberian solar, of
this mixture of cultures as fabulous as is

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our dear Spain. From here,
Julio Pérez, a communicator who has been

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an impenitent traveller for many years,
speaks to them. This morning we travel

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together on the train of life Let' s go, ladies, yes,

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gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, also
because if there are there, they are

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not in the cortijos, but in
life, in everyday life, because here

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we are already. The train has
begun its departure. They know that when

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we are in the station and we
travel in bird and I travel with a

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certain frequency in the bird usually more
of Barcelona, Madrid and other points of

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the Spanish geography, but when the
train starts is almost imperceptible, you do

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not realize and we are already going, And well, until it is already

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taking sprint and you already realize,
because the tunnels that are already before coming

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out in the light of the day. But so is this traveling train and

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it is perceptible, because we travel. It is like life itself is a

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living parable. Life is a parable
Look when you' re going in to

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me, I really like the train. I remember those trains of old,

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that I remember some long journey that
I made as one of my older brothers

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who already passed away, my brother
Ginés. And we were going, because

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it was a long trip. We
were going to Andalusia, the Sevillian,

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it looked like a train from those
of the American West and then, well,

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we were going on our feet.
Only in a few moments people were

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getting off. We could find the
seat and wooden seats. Yeah, yeah,

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farwest style, but well, this
has changed a lot, of course,

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no. And so, and when
you go by train you enjoy the

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company, sometimes pleasant or sometimes not
so pleasant, but of people who are

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around and you have a spontaneous conversation, you have a coffee, you read

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a book, you are looking at
the landscape, you get up, you

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go a little to the bar,
you come back, etcetera, etcetera.

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You have and that you enjoy the
trip. That' s life. You

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have to enjoy the journey of life
and don' t forget or live with

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anxiety and anxiety and it seems that
you can' t enjoy your family,

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your friends, the family of faith
also that you are an eternal family of

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care. Eh, in addition,
and also enjoy the good moments of life,

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to like them and to have that
ability to appreciate those moments, the

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beauties of life, sometimes insignificant beauties
and some not so insignificant, but very

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attractive that life has, that has
that miscellanea of colors that there is on

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the horizon truth as a flowery field. And this morning, because we have

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something very special, look we wanted
to dedicate at least I thought I have

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a very great affection for the gypsy
people, since I have a knowledge,

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especially Christian. I remember that shortly
after I met Jesus in my youth and

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discovered the church in my own neighborhood, in the Raval of Barcelona, I

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discovered a pastor gypsy church such as
Alfredo. I remember many years ago a

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man, a man of faith,
a man such and such, and I

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was not taught in that line,
but every time I went there, to

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that place, on the street count
the assault, for I about the Ramblas

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of Barcelona and I went sometimes and
caught my attention, his spirit, his

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joy, his fervor and I was
always blessed. Then I began to establish

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contacts, as we have known many
in their time, the snoring, the

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tucho, the pelón that we had
with us in our churches, all of

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them, especially the snoring and the
tucho a long time, many times Pichico,

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a great friend, a friend of
the soul. And then, for

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so many others also Marvel Mudez in
his time was more sporadic, but also

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and he was an excellent preacher.
And then, then, so many more,

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for, evidently, the sysqueet and
endless of people to the pelon that

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we also had, to forgiveness,
the pelon I have already told the Pelele

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and also brother Pelele, who also
had a close relationship with him, and

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to so many others I no longer
remember. Many names do not sell Juan

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Ramón and others I no longer tell
brothers like Sicus Carboney and endlessly there has

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been a closeness and one and one
affection. And not only a fondness,

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but a great respect for Gypsy culture
and rediscovering the values of Gypsy culture.

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And, of course and above all, in the evangelic Christian world, the

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gypsies have massively emigrated to the evangelical
faith because it goes more with them,

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it is more expressive, more spontaneous, more direct, without intermediaries, without

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mysteries, no and without all that
religious fetishism that exists in other cases.

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And then, I discovered a lot
of good things about them and of course

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there I remember the brother yen who
left with the lord or just with the

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pandemic. He got married and couldn' t get over it. Just a

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month before I was with him in
Madrid in a meeting and I was happy

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with a barbarity. We embraced each
other very dearly, but so many brothers

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and sisters and would remember this way
on the march and how not our dear

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guests this morning José Carmona, a
man who is a charm of person,

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for his affection, his empathy and, besides, his good doing, because

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he is a man who you will
already see, his book that we are

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going to talk about today, that
you have to know him, of Punjaba

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Canarias, the whole history of the
Gypsy people in general and then the history

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in Spain and the Canary Islands as
well. But you have to read this

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book. This book is an essential
document to learn about gypsy culture. Then

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we also have José Carmona, a
doctor of psychology, this morning. There

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' s nothing to see. You
are of course the figures of Gitana,

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the gypsy, have been arantemized many
times, because there is a social stereotype,

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but not the gypsies have anything to
do with stories that say good is

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that crime and crime is in the
world of payo and in the gypsy world

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and in the Latin American world and
in the world everywhere. The fact is

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that the living conditions must be analyzed
by this group, which has been very

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marginalized over many years and also in
Spain until now, because there are voices

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that have been talking and have been
putting the thing up to category of recognition,

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of social importance, a social minority
signified, and that, well,

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they are changing many things, but
still have to change and put to make

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a bet a day. Well,
José Carmona is an expert. He is

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a professor at the University of La
Laguna. They have several needs is,

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a name, an intellectual like the
cup of a pyro. He has also

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written Christian books such as La Cruz, a great book that we will also

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talk about this and well, we
will also enjoy these Gypsy intellectuals that we

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have with us today, which are
some of so many. There are many

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in Spain professionals, some are politicians
who militate in some parties and are also

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in citizens in the Popular Party,
some in some other party. Then we

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also have Antonio Carmona, writer,
great theologian wherever they are. He holds

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a degree in theology and also a
doctorate in divinities from several Spanish and American

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universities in the United States. Author
of the two very interesting books as well.

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Freedom for the forgotten is one of
his previous books. But today we

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' ll talk about a book you' ve just published to me. It

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' s called The Bible. He
makes a memorandum and synthesis of the history

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of the Bible, which is a
book for those who know nothing and to

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make a bet to the day on
how the Bible has come to us.

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Read Antonio Carmona' s book.
It' s magnificent. It' s

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great, well, let' s
talk to him. It is a pleasure

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and an honor to have you on
the train of life. And of course

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not, because my admired and dear
Séfora Vargas, because she is a friendly

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fighting woman, with a character,
but the character, that good character that

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has to be determined, resolutional,
determined. And so a worker is speaking

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on the occasion of International Working Women' s Day, for she who has

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written this also this very important book
about getting out of freedom, the cry

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of freedom. I have here the
title of the book that I like,

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The Cry of Freedom. It'
s the book. It is a book

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on the emancipation of women, of
gypsy women, that a culture, because

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in some archaic aspects. As far
as women are concerned as well and in

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other respects, but as she has
been able to give some tones, emancipators

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and also women in general, then
we will be talking to her, but

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also her book, which also speaks
of a story of the Gypsy people for

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Damis dumis, who understand, for
initiates, for people who have to know

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basically, this book is impressive.
I think it is a book with many

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historical references, very well documented and
then focused on stories that reach your soul.

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You get to very concrete stories of
the Gypsy people during the soa Nazi

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genocide, that the gypsies were exterminated
massively along with the Jews, thousands of

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gypsies were killed and also by the
Nazi genocide, as well as homosexuals and

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people who were discarded for the Nazis
of humanity. Well, then, we

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have these three champions because they are
truly people with a combative, fighting spirit.

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They have a spirit when you talk
to them, as long as you

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get it. José Carmona, doctor
of psychology. Antonio Carmona, also a

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doctor of theology and writer. Both
writers and also gone rod is that she

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is a lawyer and is also a
writer and lecturer. This conference these days

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in many forums and tomorrow, even
on the occasion of International Women' s

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Day, will be on several programs. So much is on Spanish television radio

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programs, the Burgués ester program.
It' s also going to be at

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night, Burguese Time, et cetera, et cetera. It is with us

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that we also make a note of
the issue of women, also with it

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of International Women' s Day.
Well, then, all this and more

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stuff, good music, the music
we' re going to hear. We

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will start with a music my friend
Alex, who is in the sound control,

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who watch it sing by Roberto Hernández
and Juan Ramón, Juan Ramón de

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Rocío, and then it is a
composition made by Roberto Hernández. The grace

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of God. Bellisim This song I
love. Both of you. They both

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sing it, both of them.
Then we will have asiks Carboney also one

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of his compositions to the system how
we will not listen this morning also that

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they are very dear and well known
voices among us and I invite you to

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travel with me this morning on the
train of life. Come on. You

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can send your message through our Facebook. Through our Facebook, entering between your

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double- pointed see the train of
life. Point is the train of life.

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Point is Remember that in this way
you collaborate with us. Tell us

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00:16:41.159 --> 00:16:48.080
your impressions, ask us and participate
actively. We want to meet you,

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we want to meet you. Enter
our website three his month double point train

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of life. Together it is and
follow us through Facebook. Through Facebook your

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God' s grace is like the
wind and it reaches you in a moment

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embraces you, take the hand of
feeling forgive something happens in you. The

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grace of God that they brown the
hair a token of his love is like

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that du deserved. You know I
arrested him, but we didn' t

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explain it. The grace of God
does not come sora, accompanying the hours

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the compassion of per And if it
does not wander the memory and remember your

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story, will know that God grace
led you to God surrenders that which gag

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of God. He said what came
on the way open to eternity, not

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meringo, but vera God. The
grace of God is like the wind.

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It hits you in a moment,
hugs your heart and comes to you they

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take you off the manna, you
feel forgiven and something happens. God'

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s grace is his jute. I
want to caress the pebo a token of

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his love, like that domimbecio.
You know what has been received, but

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they do not explain it, but
God' s grace does not come alone,

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it accompanies my forgiveness at all times
and if you do not miss the

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memory and you remember your story,
you will know that God to God,

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Grace, the day brings what is
not and what grace of God said does

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not come heart, whether it comes
from God, the way opened to the

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Esther by the seafaring see God give
gift to burn radia of God said,

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the delected Heart, grace of God, the way opened to the Eternity because

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I deserve mere Godheads these things have
been given to us from his eternal,

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power and deity. Pure Grace.
Pray you don' t come hour his

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promise, until he comes, until
today closer than ever. We invite you

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to the second edition of this Interdenominational
Congress aimed at the whole body of Christ

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in Spain and Europe, which will
take place from 26 to 28 April in

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the Fira de Reus, Tarragona.
They will be with us, international speakers,

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Mariano sen Egual, Benjamin Núñez and
Marcos brunet To want wamado bu plotted

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for more information, You can enter
our www ww website until he comes.

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00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:07.039
It is either to write to the
six, one, six, eight,

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eight, one, five, seven, one, six hundred, sixteen,

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00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:15.960
eight hundred and eighty- one,
five hundred and seventy- one and to

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00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:19.559
consult prices and registration modalities. Don' t miss the opportunity to participate in

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this great call until he comes.
Until he comes or that prunes your home

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before your glory and lower your plowing
well and every eye will see if you

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want to visit our website the wwwww. The train of life. The train

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of life, Post or, ladies
and gentlemen, are we traveling on the

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train of life? Here, in
the master car, where we always welcome

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good friends. You know you say
that journalists are accountants of things. Yes,

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it' s true, sometimes good
things and sometimes not so good,

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sometimes true things and other uncertain things
in the worst cases. But we have

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to talk about a town that is
between a millennial flight, such as the

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gypsy people, and we are going
to talk to one of them, a

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test gypsy, plus a man who
is an intellectual, a man with a

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great academic background and a doctor in
theology, forgiveness in psychology. In theology

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we will later have Antonio Carmona,
but we have José Carmona, the doctor

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in psychology and also writer of several
books, one of them very interesting,

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from punjat to the Canary Islands,
the history of the Gypsy people and goes

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through many historical challenges, including Spain
and also the Canary Islands, also where

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he currently resides. And well,
they' re going to realize in their

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tone, in their knowledge of the
subject, because the importance, the relevance

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of gypsy history and gypsy culture and
we' re going to talk to him

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and I want to welcome José Carmona. Good morning, Jose, good morning.

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Greeting you for July and in principle, I can thank you for the

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opportunity and congratulations for those thirty years
being in the air, making a difference

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00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:03.119
and thanking you for the opportunity you
give me as well as my colleagues Antonio

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Carmona and went on a journey to
make that costly work visible that we are

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doing. People who are of Roma
ethnicity, but who, besides sharing that

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ethnic nuance, I think we have
a superior identity, because it is more

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transcendent and is that we are evangelical
Christians redeemed by the work of Jesus Christ

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in the Court of Calvary. And
I believe that if the three of us

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are in this program, we thank
you mainly that it has been moved by

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God, but it is thanks to
the unconditional work that the evangelical people have

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done, for the inclusion of the
Gypsy people, because if it had not

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been for the Gospel of Jesus Christ, without doubting either Séphora, Antonio or

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a servant, we would be here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Well, honorable to go about this, because I think that' s

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true, that we have to give
glory to our good God, because that

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' s where our there originates makes
sense, our history of each one in

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particular. Then we can see identities
of this or that background. But Jesus

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Christ gives us identity and also makes
us love life in its best version.

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Yes, yes, well, hear
about topics talk to us a little bit

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about your formation, your trajectory,
your current performance, so that our listeners

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remember those who did not hear you
before and those who make a reminder tell

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us about you from your family.
A little good, because I belong to

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that generation of gypsies that my family
know about a hundred years that we no

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longer live in the Peninsulary, our
most remote origins. According to research carried

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out by my cousins, We come, therefore, all of what is the

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part of the Granadina alpujarra, we
descend to the archada Malagueña and from there

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my great- grandmothers, certainly that
grandmothers, also of Antonio de Arbona,

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00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:23.279
go to Amelidia and our family has
always been, therefore, a saleswoman of

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very disturbing clothes. We arrived in
Canaria. In the case of my generation,

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we were born in Argentina and there
the Evangelical Church Philadelphia is the one

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who owes much and to those pioneers
the Gospel begins in the year seventy-

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six, which I was only one
and a half years old, and then

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in the year eighty- three,
already nine years old, because we are

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in it comes to us. I
went to second grade. I practically learn

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to read with the Bible and when
I am nineteen years old, I am

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already a pastor and we start here
in the Canary Islands. Thanks also to

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among them, Antonio de Argona,
who is a cousin of mine and is

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older than me a couple of years, and to an uncle we both shared,

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who today is in the presence of
Mr Juan Maldonado, and other friendly

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pastors. We started studying at Saving. The fact is that I really learn

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to write thanks to the work that
he knows about the Center for Biblical Research

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00:29:22.599 --> 00:29:27.039
of Canaria, with José Manuel Díaz
Yane and very linked to Barcelona, because

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there was Pedro Pusperl, Bernardo Sánchez, that magnificent generation that God has given

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us. And thanks to them and
because I learn to write. The point

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00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:42.839
is, I graduated in two years
high school social work. It has already

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been a very accelerated race, because
it has been the grace of God.

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I can say that both Séfora and
Antonio a server. While it is true

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that there are many inclusion programmes for
the people of Mexico, none of the

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three of us have been part of
those programmes. We are the fruit of

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the effort of our family and the
support of the Christian people, who have

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believed in the transformation of people and
who know that education is the most powerful

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weapon that can transform society. And
for one thing, we are recognized as

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the people of the book. The
Christian people are the people of the book,

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and it is that all revolve around
us of Jesus Christ and the legacy

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of Christ, the message of Christ. While it is true that we have

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transcendent mystical experiences, that the Holy
Spirit is real, but our faith is

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based on a historical fact, by
a book that has two thousand years of

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00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:41.799
survival with the greatest persecutions and that
in none of the attempts have been able

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to stop it. And that has
come to us and transformed us and for

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us it is a pride. Well
said, it is an injection of self

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- esteem to know that we are
the result of those principles, of the

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principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. What a beautiful synthesis of your history

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00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:08.160
and your family we celebrate. Well, there' s this last book.

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We will talk about the other also
that is interesting, the Cross, but

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the one from Punjab to Punhat to
the Canary Islands, the history of the

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Gypsy people, that of Arbert Box, which can be found in Amazon.

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I imagine not yes, the book
right now we were modifying, because the

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idea of this book I am not
a historian. My training is social work

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00:31:33.079 --> 00:31:38.119
and I am in social sciences,
in social sciences, in the elaboration of

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the thesis, in my cocon as
a scientist, who is really a social

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00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:48.920
researcher, is what I do.
I have a personal self- discovery with

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00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:56.319
my gypsy identity, but I discover
that in the Canary Islands neither the majority

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00:31:56.400 --> 00:31:56.920
society knows the history of the gypsy
people. And the saddest thing is that

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the gypsy people know the most important
elements of their leader Meri their symbol,

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00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:08.000
that is, the history of the
gypsy people is unknown not only to the

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00:32:08.079 --> 00:32:12.480
majority society, but also to the
gican people. So, in this elaboration

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of thesis and thanks to the lord
the opportunities that I have to work as

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a researcher, cultural promoter and working
for the inclusion of the Gypsy people,

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because of all the cuts that have
been made, the end- of-

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grade works, scientific publications, thesis
works, because then I have the initiative,

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00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:38.119
with the support of the institutions with
which I work at the moment,

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00:32:38.599 --> 00:32:44.559
with the Cabildo de Tenerife, thanks
to the Federation of Rome BAX, to

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00:32:44.680 --> 00:32:49.680
make a historical compilation, which is
not the most exhautive research, if it

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00:32:49.680 --> 00:32:52.799
has a clearly scientific character, because
what we want to demonstrate is that the

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Gypsy people, a canarian, is
here in force since the seventeenth century,

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since the beginning of the twentieth century, is centered and sadly the Gypsies that

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00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:06.319
we are in shared Canary Islands are
lucky with the rest of the Canaries,

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00:33:06.559 --> 00:33:07.839
that we are ultra peripheral and in
the great national research, like the national

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00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:09.960
housing survey. We didn' t
show up the relational health surveys by the

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00:33:09.960 --> 00:33:15.240
gypsies. Nor do the state plans
come then, because the Gypsy people are

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00:33:15.319 --> 00:33:21.039
a people who are settled in the
Canary Islands and are part of that history,

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00:33:21.480 --> 00:33:27.680
because it was opportune to take them
out In principle it has been free.

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00:33:27.759 --> 00:33:32.000
Which happens that in order to be
able to hang it and give it

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00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:35.000
matidor diffusion in some places, they
are putting it in sales. We recommend

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00:33:35.079 --> 00:33:37.640
that you do not pay, because
we have all the channels so that you

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00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:42.599
can download it in the digital version
for free. One of the very important

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things because for me this book is
important, because, in addition to promoting

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00:33:46.799 --> 00:33:52.680
gypsy culture is the key, it
has been the door to entering the social

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00:33:53.119 --> 00:33:59.480
sphere and now we are also working
on a second research with brothers and sisters,

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00:33:59.599 --> 00:34:02.039
friends and friends are doing end-
of- grade work, since I

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00:34:02.160 --> 00:34:07.559
am linked to Benia Docenti and to
teaching in the degree of social work of

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00:34:07.640 --> 00:34:15.079
the University of La Laguna, because
the gypsy Canarian people are culturally evangelical.

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00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:21.800
So, while here the work of
the air of evangelical religious teaching hardly small

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00:34:21.840 --> 00:34:24.800
to schools, we are having opportunity, through the history of the Gypsy people,

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00:34:25.039 --> 00:34:30.599
from that anthropological and cultural element,
to share as the Gypsy people is

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00:34:30.760 --> 00:34:37.079
an evangelical people and that really the
work of inclusion of the Gypsy people unselfishly

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00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:43.360
without expecting anything. In return,
giving their lives with blood and sweat and

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00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:46.960
tear, to the pastors and evangelical
pastors, because all the programs, behind

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00:34:47.079 --> 00:34:53.559
all the state programs that there are
municipal, autonomous, we are already talking

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00:34:53.719 --> 00:34:59.079
about public suspensions, people who work
for the gypsies, but also home and

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00:34:59.159 --> 00:35:05.440
live thanks to that work. But
if there are figures to be highlighted are

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00:35:05.559 --> 00:35:09.840
pastors, those factors, those families
who have gone to English, places to

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00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:16.519
preach open church, they have acted
as social mediators, they have acted as

328
00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:22.440
psychologists, they are even acting as
lawyers, as lawyers. I don'

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00:35:23.239 --> 00:35:28.920
t know the factors. If I
have to value a profession here on Earth,

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00:35:29.239 --> 00:35:31.760
in pastoral function, because the factors
are the only ones working twenty-

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00:35:32.280 --> 00:35:38.400
four, seven, three hundred,
sixty- five days. So that job

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00:35:38.639 --> 00:35:44.400
we' re in, we want
people to know it. That' s

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00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:52.360
good. How interesting the origins you
tell us about the implantation in the Canary

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00:35:52.719 --> 00:35:59.599
Islands itself, where you reside of
the Roma minority. But in your book

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00:35:59.639 --> 00:36:06.800
begins to the origins of the Roma
Roma Gypsy people and the Roma Roma Gypsy

336
00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:13.480
people. Also then in the Iberian
Peninsula, make us a breviary of this

337
00:36:13.480 --> 00:36:19.440
origin. I explain. Let'
s see that the prehistory of the Gypsy

338
00:36:19.559 --> 00:36:22.679
people goes back to Punjab. It' s an area in India Pakistan.

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00:36:23.360 --> 00:36:30.159
It' s prehistory, that is, data. I understand that there are

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00:36:30.199 --> 00:36:32.039
people who start from hypothesis theories,
but for me, what does not have

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00:36:32.039 --> 00:36:37.159
an empirical scientific value, I cannot
contrast it by my scientific character. Then

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00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:43.280
the prehistory of the gypsy people is
India that formerly India would come from elsewhere.

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00:36:43.800 --> 00:36:46.199
We don' t know that and
there' s no scientific evidence that

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00:36:46.199 --> 00:36:49.079
we can assert it. We would
have to go into faith, but in

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00:36:49.159 --> 00:36:53.000
scientific empirical matters it is India in
its migration process. By the year a

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00:36:53.199 --> 00:36:58.280
thousand begins this migration process, one
thousand and four hundred and twenty- five.

347
00:36:58.360 --> 00:37:04.400
One thousand and four hundred and twenty- five arrive in the Iberian Peninsula

348
00:37:04.400 --> 00:37:06.960
and they begin there. The one
thousand four hundred and ninety- two fought

349
00:37:07.079 --> 00:37:12.679
a series with the totalitarianism of Catholic
kings. Jews are expelled, Muslims and

350
00:37:12.719 --> 00:37:17.159
gypsies are expelled. They do not
agree to expel him because the gypsies,

351
00:37:17.239 --> 00:37:22.320
for one place, on the one
hand, are the belt containing the Muslim

352
00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:27.079
invasion. They have also been the
hand of works of the mines and were

353
00:37:27.159 --> 00:37:30.400
also the rowers of the Jalera.
Then, from there, the Gypsy people

354
00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:36.000
fought against cloak and sword to maintain
their identity and run the same fate as

355
00:37:36.119 --> 00:37:42.679
the evangelicals, the Casaña brothers,
the Cyprian monks of Valera, almost of

356
00:37:42.800 --> 00:37:45.920
Reina. To say, we evangelicals
and gypsies have run the same fate in

357
00:37:46.039 --> 00:37:54.039
the Iberian Peninsula. Total Catholic monarchic
vitarism exterminates all the different if successively,

358
00:37:54.840 --> 00:38:00.880
for the Gypsy people in the 20th
century, when there begins to be a

359
00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:04.400
little hope, that is where.
That is where my family, who go

360
00:38:04.440 --> 00:38:07.719
to my light come to the Canary
Islands, appears, and here, in

361
00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:14.800
Canaria, thanks to the interculturality of
the Canary Islands Archipelago and also because in

362
00:38:14.920 --> 00:38:17.199
the year from the years at the
end of the seventies, the Gypsy people

363
00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:22.639
embrace the Protestant faith. In this
way the book so ends, we show

364
00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:27.679
how there are almost forty people who
have overcome that which, compared to the

365
00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:31.719
rest of the majority society, is
insignificant. But considering that school failure in

366
00:38:31.800 --> 00:38:39.360
Spain, those who are gypsies and
gypsies researchers estimate it waiting. Ninety percent

367
00:38:39.480 --> 00:38:47.440
canary, we have one, we
have girls who are lawyers, psychologist,

368
00:38:47.719 --> 00:38:52.039
social workers, we have boys who
are nurses, Antonio who is a theologian,

369
00:38:52.639 --> 00:38:55.760
we have philosophers. And the most
interesting thing is that more than eighty

370
00:38:55.960 --> 00:39:01.559
- five percent of them your parents
are evangelical factors and that they share the

371
00:39:01.679 --> 00:39:08.639
Christian faith, because truly the transformation
of those gypsies and gypsies who have overcome

372
00:39:08.719 --> 00:39:15.800
all the barriers of stereotypes, all
the barriers of anti- Gypsy. The

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00:39:15.920 --> 00:39:20.320
main driving force in most cases has
to do with the principles of the Gospel

374
00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:24.000
of Jesus Christ, so I am
more than convinced that if there is a

375
00:39:24.159 --> 00:39:31.800
philosophical element, no longer only spiritual, but theoretical philosophical, that can bring

376
00:39:31.960 --> 00:39:38.000
equality, that can bring interculturality,
capacity for dialogue, they are the principles

377
00:39:38.079 --> 00:39:45.360
of Protestant reform, without taking away
that there is any other extremist. Unfortunately,

378
00:39:45.519 --> 00:39:49.760
in all human groups there is.
But I do believe and I am

379
00:39:49.880 --> 00:39:52.760
convinced that the Christian faith has all
the elements to create an inclusive world.

380
00:39:54.239 --> 00:40:00.000
No doubt, without a doubt,
you make a magnificent challenge, s synthesis

381
00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:07.280
to situate us. Then, from
the origins that we see of the Gypsy

382
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:14.280
people there in India, also the
Roma Roma people in the Iberian Peninsula And

383
00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:21.000
then, evidently, the periods of
persecution that have been very recurrent, because

384
00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:28.840
it is a characteristically persecuted people,
very similar to the Jews. Yeah,

385
00:40:29.000 --> 00:40:32.719
we share, keep in mind that
we' ve been sharing since a thousand

386
00:40:32.719 --> 00:40:37.039
four hundred and ninety- two.
We begin with more than 250 pragmatics.

387
00:40:37.599 --> 00:40:40.840
Of course, it has also been
forged by something that is the popular imagination.

388
00:40:42.679 --> 00:40:47.719
The figure of the gypsy has not
only been persecuted by systemic lexs,

389
00:40:49.440 --> 00:40:53.280
but also the worst that we are
currently fighting with them with the popular imaginary,

390
00:40:53.719 --> 00:40:58.199
bearing in mind that until not long
ago and in fact, it is

391
00:40:58.519 --> 00:41:02.159
still collected as one of the sections
is that the gigitano is synonymous with a

392
00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:07.239
trapper. Yeah, that image We' re fighting with that footage. On

393
00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:09.920
the one hand, the Gypsy people. All this has served to be an

394
00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:14.800
hermetic, indogamic people and, on
the other hand, the popular imaginary,

395
00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:19.519
because it finds the evidence that they
need to keep commenting on it. For

396
00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:21.639
me, what' s the saddest
thing. The saddest thing is that the

397
00:41:21.719 --> 00:41:24.400
gypsy people as a people are a
people who, from the sixties onwards,

398
00:41:25.039 --> 00:41:32.360
embrace Protestantism, Protestant reform, a
very significant amount in the national territory.

399
00:41:34.840 --> 00:41:43.079
Since the gypsy churches exceed a thousand
churches, they are in a position to

400
00:41:43.239 --> 00:41:50.519
be warmed up, i e they
are in a position where they are rejected

401
00:41:50.519 --> 00:41:52.599
and self- rejected, i e
they marginalize and self- marginate. Thus,

402
00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:58.320
considering this, the inclusion of the
Roma people not only key slave from

403
00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:02.280
a social political perspective, but also
is very important from a missionary perspective,

404
00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:08.679
bearing in mind that Spain is part
of the great missionary investigations of the 70th

405
00:42:08.760 --> 00:42:14.159
window of the peoples less reached today
by the Gospel of Jesus, when we

406
00:42:14.239 --> 00:42:19.559
have a thousand churches in which neither
the majority society has access nor those churches

407
00:42:19.599 --> 00:42:24.519
are in a position to be inclusive, is the sad reality with which we

408
00:42:24.599 --> 00:42:31.639
are living. So, I dream
that one day there will be that opening

409
00:42:31.760 --> 00:42:36.280
from both inside and outside, that
is, that there is a change in

410
00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:40.559
the system, because if those churches
and the inclusion of the Gypsy people is

411
00:42:40.559 --> 00:42:47.280
impossible. It would mean that a
thousand churches would be incorporated to preach the

412
00:42:47.679 --> 00:42:52.599
gospel in Spain sun all the potential
involves more than a thousand churches. It

413
00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:54.880
says it' s a fight.
The inclusion of the gypsy people not only

414
00:42:54.880 --> 00:43:00.400
has a political, socio- economic
and cultural scope, and what is also

415
00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:07.679
something that we evangelicals have to take
very seriously, because I have no doubt

416
00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:12.440
that the gypsy people are one of
the peoples with the greatest potential for the

417
00:43:12.440 --> 00:43:16.920
evangelization of Europe. In November of
the two thousand twenty- two I was

418
00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:22.119
in Prague at a congress that is
held by the nations, by the European

419
00:43:22.159 --> 00:43:28.920
Union, where they had digitized thirty- seven, of thirty- seven localities,

420
00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:34.039
but specifically twenty- eight of Europe
and the most significant that more than

421
00:43:34.039 --> 00:43:37.119
seventy percent were evangelicals. Yes,
if that public reflection and that I do,

422
00:43:37.320 --> 00:43:42.760
I can subscribe it with all the
affection and love that I personally feel

423
00:43:42.880 --> 00:43:47.920
towards the Gypsy people and my friends
of the soul. No, and I

424
00:43:47.960 --> 00:43:52.719
think a lot of us think the
same way. But the self- inclusion,

425
00:43:52.800 --> 00:44:00.800
the self- inclusion of the one
of whether the existing gypsy communities very

426
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:06.480
immense of Philadelphia, but other branches
also of networks of gypsy churches that are

427
00:44:06.599 --> 00:44:13.400
not Philadelphia, that exist also in
Spain, have that sensitivity, that ability,

428
00:44:14.079 --> 00:44:20.039
of that grace, of inclusiveness,
of being also heterogeneous churches. And

429
00:44:20.519 --> 00:44:25.000
this is a bomb. It'
s a bomb to reach everyone, all

430
00:44:25.159 --> 00:44:30.719
kinds of people. True, it
is given to a small extent. But

431
00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:36.239
suddenly, with the missionary vision of
reaching the world, the surrounding world.

432
00:44:37.000 --> 00:44:43.800
In the churches that are of Gnia
gypsy they are projected in all directions.

433
00:44:44.760 --> 00:44:50.960
This is true that you have thrown
a bomb there, a proposal that is

434
00:44:51.320 --> 00:44:57.440
interesting and it is true that I
am an ecclesiologist also because I am responsible

435
00:44:57.440 --> 00:45:02.519
for a network of churches, but
church planter, saw them the pros and

436
00:45:02.960 --> 00:45:09.800
cons, both sociological ecclesiological that are
given in favor and against the planting of

437
00:45:09.880 --> 00:45:14.199
churches. This is one of them. Yes, sir, therefore, we

438
00:45:14.199 --> 00:45:19.480
must take good note to go much
further. But speaking in the book,

439
00:45:19.639 --> 00:45:27.960
you talk to us in your book
about the gypsy cante origin of flamenco that

440
00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:31.119
I imagined had a lot to do
with it. Of course, another of

441
00:45:31.159 --> 00:45:37.000
the stigmatizations that we are suffering from
the Gypsy people has to do with singing,

442
00:45:37.400 --> 00:45:42.039
because I understand for myself the concept
of redemption in the light of the

443
00:45:42.039 --> 00:45:45.559
Bible. I am a frustrated theologian, because I have never been able to

444
00:45:45.639 --> 00:45:49.400
study all the triology that I like, although the study is a graduate,

445
00:45:49.920 --> 00:45:54.559
I am a graduate in theology by
the Seisving, but really my social work

446
00:45:54.679 --> 00:46:00.280
and the concept of redemption is that, after all, I am a panto

447
00:46:00.400 --> 00:46:01.920
ecnotis the mateo twenty- eight,
eighteen, all ethnicities. We must be

448
00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:07.480
disciples of Jesus Christ the arts.
The arts must be redeemed to give glory,

449
00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:12.159
for that is the purpose that Jesus
Christ be all in all, all

450
00:46:12.599 --> 00:46:17.480
in him for his glory. So, if we see how the gypsy people

451
00:46:17.559 --> 00:46:22.719
express their culture, there are pictures
that reveal it since the thousand six hundred

452
00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:28.239
works of art, the gypsy singing, the dance, the cultural expression.

453
00:46:28.920 --> 00:46:32.679
There is a mix in Baja Andalucía
and we cannot say that flamenco is its

454
00:46:32.760 --> 00:46:37.960
own gypsy, but that main contribution
is from the gypsy. What happens is

455
00:46:37.119 --> 00:46:42.239
that the saddest thing or a fellow
Christian who is doing a very important job

456
00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:47.519
in prisons in Spain, called José
Suárez el Torombo. We have shared a

457
00:46:49.199 --> 00:46:52.840
lot and considering that Seville, for
example, has more than 300 places where

458
00:46:52.880 --> 00:46:59.480
flamenco is put. Sadly the artists
who have taken flamenco to become patriotic mons

459
00:46:59.519 --> 00:47:02.519
of humanity, as we could speak
of the families of the Revuelo, of

460
00:47:02.519 --> 00:47:06.519
the Raimundo, of the whole family
of Reimundo, to the greatest remedy Amalia.

461
00:47:07.159 --> 00:47:12.480
Well, we' re talking about
the pop of the flamenco top.

462
00:47:13.079 --> 00:47:16.280
They are, unfortunately, in a
stigmatized neighborhood. The neighborhood is not the

463
00:47:16.360 --> 00:47:21.320
problem or its people. The problem
is anti- Gypsy. And how is

464
00:47:21.440 --> 00:47:25.199
it possible for the pastor to have
three hundred places where flamenco is exposed and

465
00:47:25.320 --> 00:47:30.719
that those people who are flamenco since
birth are not occupying the best places.

466
00:47:31.280 --> 00:47:37.519
If we look right now at all
the flamenco programs, where there is teaching

467
00:47:37.639 --> 00:47:43.360
of flamenco, where flamenco is taught, because flamenco is an eibe of Spain,

468
00:47:43.840 --> 00:47:46.960
that is to say, in the
interior, the interior product group is

469
00:47:47.119 --> 00:47:52.599
surpassing 7%. And how is
it possible that those gypsies who have that

470
00:47:52.719 --> 00:47:59.760
capacity to generate that culture, that
service that branded Spain, are happening in

471
00:47:59.800 --> 00:48:02.280
those cities. If you' re
going to hurt yourself, you can find

472
00:48:02.440 --> 00:48:07.559
the best guitarists who aren' t
working and don' t have a decent

473
00:48:07.559 --> 00:48:10.199
life. You can find the singers
who have given all their lives on board

474
00:48:10.280 --> 00:48:15.440
and haven' t even been working
all their lives and don' t even

475
00:48:15.519 --> 00:48:21.199
qualify for a decent retirement. That' s what strikes me. It doesn

476
00:48:21.239 --> 00:48:23.400
' t catch my eye if anyone' s gypsy singing space doesn' t

477
00:48:23.920 --> 00:48:28.760
kick. What strikes me is that
if the gypsy has that capacity and that

478
00:48:28.920 --> 00:48:35.440
ability to do culture, it is
from the redemption of that culture that they

479
00:48:35.599 --> 00:48:40.440
can have a dignified life. Working
in a theatre, giving dance teachers to

480
00:48:40.599 --> 00:48:46.239
be the ones selling gypsy clothes,
i e flamenco or a culture. How

481
00:48:46.320 --> 00:48:51.559
can we have a people who are
going through need, who live marginality,

482
00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:57.800
when culturally it has an ability to
produce economy that generates seven percent of a

483
00:48:58.039 --> 00:49:00.079
country. I' m not here. I' m not so interested in

484
00:49:00.159 --> 00:49:06.559
musical nuance. I' m interested
in the transformational nuance. You imagine,

485
00:49:07.039 --> 00:49:12.280
pastor, if that gypsy and that
gypsy were the owners of the galleries,

486
00:49:12.800 --> 00:49:16.239
where they put on the faralage costumes, all the cosmetics and the gypsy aesthetics,

487
00:49:16.760 --> 00:49:22.400
the food that is around, the
academies that are around, the musical

488
00:49:22.519 --> 00:49:28.320
productions, the theaters, the villages
that in ninety percent spread the Gospel of

489
00:49:28.360 --> 00:49:34.239
Jesus Christ. We would be the
show button that the Gospel transforms. That

490
00:49:34.239 --> 00:49:37.360
' s right, that' s
right, I' m good. There

491
00:49:37.400 --> 00:49:43.280
are many there are many variables of
what you' re saying interesting that we

492
00:49:43.360 --> 00:49:46.119
might even have just one program about
this. But, for example, good

493
00:49:46.159 --> 00:49:52.960
flamenco singing in the voice of gypsy. Well Camarón, for example, a

494
00:49:52.039 --> 00:49:59.480
pro gypsy who raised flamenco to the
highest level that, by the way,

495
00:49:59.800 --> 00:50:04.559
in the latter part of his life, had an encounter with the lord also

496
00:50:04.760 --> 00:50:09.119
already at the critical moment of his
life that was already so sick, thank

497
00:50:09.159 --> 00:50:13.960
God. But it means it'
s evidence and there' s so many

498
00:50:13.960 --> 00:50:16.760
there. That' s a list. I am using memory, but good

499
00:50:17.199 --> 00:50:22.559
is also an interesting note in the
book about the gypsy cante origin of flamenco.

500
00:50:22.440 --> 00:50:27.639
But the gypsy people in the Spanish
Civil War and then the gypsy people

501
00:50:28.280 --> 00:50:32.199
and Francoism, for a part of
the civil war and then Francoism. These

502
00:50:32.320 --> 00:50:40.239
two stages are complicated stages. True, if they are complicated stages and not

503
00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:44.760
well known. I' m going
to tell you an example that I didn

504
00:50:44.840 --> 00:50:45.559
' t pick up in the book
because I told myself. A later uncle

505
00:50:45.599 --> 00:50:52.079
of mine, a good aunt of
mine, my great aunt, to her

506
00:50:52.079 --> 00:50:55.400
son at the age of sixteen.
My grandfather' s first- born uncle

507
00:50:55.519 --> 00:51:00.679
passes the red truck called red,
they wear that. What happens that in

508
00:51:00.800 --> 00:51:06.840
the village, the people were people
and re- Franquist and to her the

509
00:51:07.679 --> 00:51:13.159
captain of the village that had there, the captain calls her and takes her

510
00:51:13.159 --> 00:51:17.239
to the barracks, when my aunt
wanted to justify them and take her life

511
00:51:17.320 --> 00:51:22.800
with the rest of the reds in
the village, My aunt told the captain

512
00:51:23.079 --> 00:51:25.880
what she called me and you told
her it' s called loneliness, no,

513
00:51:25.880 --> 00:51:28.159
she didn' t tell her.
No, no, what you call

514
00:51:28.199 --> 00:51:31.400
me when I' m not present, then he said well, no,

515
00:51:31.719 --> 00:51:36.400
don' t tell me and in
the end he presses it so hard that

516
00:51:36.400 --> 00:51:37.960
it ends up telling him. The
gypsy says, because that' s what

517
00:51:37.079 --> 00:51:39.719
we are. We' re gypsies, we' re not red, we

518
00:51:39.719 --> 00:51:44.920
' re not Francoists. In the
end, he showed her that she had

519
00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:49.920
her hair cut to give a lesson
and thus saves her life. But that

520
00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:52.760
is the reality that the history of
the Gypsy people is reflected in the civil

521
00:51:52.760 --> 00:51:58.760
war. The Gypsy and Gypsy people. The Gypsy people, unfortunately, do

522
00:51:58.760 --> 00:52:01.800
not have a political apparatus. Not
removing that yes, I show you in

523
00:52:01.920 --> 00:52:07.639
evidence that there have been gypsies who
have been from the right, others,

524
00:52:07.840 --> 00:52:12.400
who have been from the left,
others who, that is, there have

525
00:52:12.559 --> 00:52:16.719
been different gypsies, characters who have
been able to build a political apparatus,

526
00:52:17.119 --> 00:52:22.440
with which they were linked to certain
positions, but in general, it was

527
00:52:22.559 --> 00:52:27.639
not the position of the gypsy people, because the gypsy people, so many

528
00:52:27.719 --> 00:52:30.880
years of repression, what they are
least interested in between quotation marks, I

529
00:52:30.880 --> 00:52:32.719
say, was the conflict of the
cloths. That is why it is very

530
00:52:32.920 --> 00:52:38.199
important to rescue him, because,
on the other hand, the Gypsy people

531
00:52:38.320 --> 00:52:46.320
need to start building a different political
apparatus positively right now. It is interesting

532
00:52:46.360 --> 00:52:54.320
all the reflections we are gnawing at, of course because there are details developed

533
00:52:55.199 --> 00:53:00.480
about the Gypsy people and Francoism.
During Francoism, how it was treated,

534
00:53:00.599 --> 00:53:07.559
how it was ignored, and also
the Gypsy people during the Spanish Civil War

535
00:53:07.599 --> 00:53:13.039
all the avatars it meant for all
the citizens. But also, evidently,

536
00:53:13.360 --> 00:53:19.960
you have told that anecdote that is
very descriptive. You speak also of gypsy.

537
00:53:20.639 --> 00:53:24.199
To the ghetto what do you mean
by that? Oh. That'

538
00:53:24.239 --> 00:53:29.679
s one of the chapters where it' s the most open to me,

539
00:53:29.840 --> 00:53:31.599
because I' ve all been a
self- discovery. Anyone who today takes

540
00:53:31.639 --> 00:53:37.519
any highway of the big cities and
you can see the mine, the three

541
00:53:37.519 --> 00:53:40.519
thousand houses, the thousand houses,
the palm for midi in Malaga and at

542
00:53:40.559 --> 00:53:47.039
first sight we say the gypsies,
growing that these constructions have been created by

543
00:53:47.239 --> 00:53:52.079
the gypsies and that this is the
habitat the guitars like to have. However,

544
00:53:52.400 --> 00:53:59.360
when we dig a little bit in
history, we discover that the gypsy

545
00:53:59.440 --> 00:54:04.320
shops so called as are the Jewish
Quarters, because they have been Jewish Quarters

546
00:54:04.440 --> 00:54:08.400
and that nowadays Jewish Quarters are preserved
in Córdoba, in part, in other

547
00:54:08.400 --> 00:54:15.400
parts, in Granada, the gypsies
have had their own territory, which have

548
00:54:15.480 --> 00:54:17.119
always been on the outskirts of the
cities. And so where the gypsies have

549
00:54:17.199 --> 00:54:24.519
managed to elaborate their culture and turn
them into gypsy centers, they have expropriated

550
00:54:24.519 --> 00:54:29.480
them, they have taken their places. It serves as an example Triana.

551
00:54:30.199 --> 00:54:35.679
The gypsy has been Entriana since 1, 500 seventy, where there were fourteen

552
00:54:35.760 --> 00:54:38.960
forges, which must be understood that
in those moments of the time, the

553
00:54:39.039 --> 00:54:45.960
gypsies were what supplied the Spanish army
with everything that was blacksmith and all the

554
00:54:45.960 --> 00:54:49.920
maintenance, both agricultural and war Spain. I was at war at the time.

555
00:54:50.119 --> 00:54:53.079
Then that place. There they develop
a way of life. In fact,

556
00:54:53.559 --> 00:55:00.280
in the 1950s the first Gypsy school
appeared. We are talking, that

557
00:55:00.280 --> 00:55:04.039
is, the level of inclusion there
was absolutely total. There they have been,

558
00:55:04.639 --> 00:55:07.880
there have been cribs of bullfighting like
the cocks. And what to say

559
00:55:07.039 --> 00:55:12.239
about the gypsy before that was the
forge. For in the years from the

560
00:55:12.360 --> 00:55:16.639
fifties and sixties, behind a political
economic interest, they use the Gypsies and

561
00:55:16.639 --> 00:55:22.239
turn them literally, they leave it
outside and in the late sixties, as

562
00:55:22.559 --> 00:55:29.079
in the San Pablo polygon, it
is a urbanistic failure, because the Sevillian

563
00:55:29.199 --> 00:55:32.800
worker does not want to go to
live and do not know what to do

564
00:55:32.880 --> 00:55:38.400
with that housing. They host these
gypsies by staying from the three thousand living

565
00:55:38.480 --> 00:55:44.360
and many empty, that many gypsies
coming from other parts, which were to

566
00:55:44.440 --> 00:55:50.199
walk rivers, end up creating a
ghetto. In the 1980s, the issue

567
00:55:50.360 --> 00:55:54.039
of drugs, heroin, has become
a ghetto where for many years they have

568
00:55:54.199 --> 00:56:00.599
been stigmatized, but Gypsies do not
seek to live in it. Another thing

569
00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:06.400
is that there are already four or
five generations who have grown up in that

570
00:56:06.679 --> 00:56:09.840
context and I have seen it.
Another reality that you will like to live

571
00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:14.760
here surrounded by misery and that the
nearest health center has it twelve kilometers away.

572
00:56:15.920 --> 00:56:22.360
We all like mon Iberian, of
course, of course, he'

573
00:56:22.400 --> 00:56:25.440
s true. This reflection is interesting. I remember when I started, that

574
00:56:25.519 --> 00:56:30.800
I also learned to read. I
learned to read well, because I had

575
00:56:30.840 --> 00:56:32.920
gone too little alcohol, because I
was very sick. I was eight to

576
00:56:32.960 --> 00:56:38.199
twelve and barely read more. I
learned to read well by reading the New

577
00:56:38.199 --> 00:56:43.199
Testament. He was a young man, he was a kid, but I

578
00:56:43.199 --> 00:56:45.360
started reading. I was late for
culture. I started reading everything not and

579
00:56:46.599 --> 00:56:52.039
I started reading Paco Candela, Francisco
Candel, who was then senator for a

580
00:56:52.079 --> 00:57:00.480
political party during democracy and was a
man who advocated human rights and such an

581
00:57:00.559 --> 00:57:07.760
interesting one. But Paco Candel lived
in the cheap houses here, in the

582
00:57:07.880 --> 00:57:15.320
free trade zone, which was populated
mostly by gypsies, the vast majority and

583
00:57:15.039 --> 00:57:20.400
has several books. Well he is
the famous author of the other Catalans to

584
00:57:20.480 --> 00:57:25.679
the Catalan salters that the other Catalans, no, but that is a book

585
00:57:25.800 --> 00:57:30.719
of very interesting inclusivity, but he
has several books I was moved to start

586
00:57:30.719 --> 00:57:34.800
reading. They were the first books
I started reading. And that' s

587
00:57:34.880 --> 00:57:39.679
where the city changes its name.
There are some social descriptions of the misery,

588
00:57:40.079 --> 00:57:45.920
of the marginalization, especially of the
gypsies. And then they have killed

589
00:57:46.000 --> 00:57:50.320
a man, they have broken a
landscape, I remember, another one of

590
00:57:51.159 --> 00:57:54.159
his books and or the character in
question was such, the gypsy who was

591
00:57:54.239 --> 00:58:00.760
a gypsy too and such and to
me it was my soul to read stasis

592
00:58:00.800 --> 00:58:07.320
that he described them so that they
became aware of these marginal groups, but

593
00:58:07.519 --> 00:58:14.199
not socially marginalized, and that he
demanded social justice for all and especially for

594
00:58:14.199 --> 00:58:17.039
them. So, and that was
him, he started in the' 60s

595
00:58:17.159 --> 00:58:21.800
and it started in the' 60s. There in the cheap houses, like

596
00:58:21.880 --> 00:58:28.559
the three thousand houses of Seville,
so emblematic that you told us. I

597
00:58:28.599 --> 00:58:30.480
mean, it means it' s
true. It is the history of marginalization

598
00:58:30.480 --> 00:58:36.800
that, well, it seems that
the public authorities, little by little sections

599
00:58:36.840 --> 00:58:45.000
of the public authorities, are awakening
to inclusiveness. That is precisely where it

600
00:58:45.039 --> 00:58:49.239
is also very important to bear in
mind that, for example, three thousand

601
00:58:49.320 --> 00:58:54.920
sevillaapolícalo houses south of the Barcelona mine, but the Evangelical Church, with a

602
00:58:55.039 --> 00:59:00.960
very important empresía and there are doactors
that I do not today part of the

603
00:59:00.960 --> 00:59:02.519
work of Philadelphia. But for me
that' s insignificant. What a human

604
00:59:02.599 --> 00:59:06.440
organization I belong to. For me
the most important thing is Jesus Christ,

605
00:59:06.840 --> 00:59:12.320
the body of Christ and the evangelical
faith transcending human organizations. But from here

606
00:59:12.440 --> 00:59:16.840
I want to pay a tribute to
those protors who are in those slums,

607
00:59:16.920 --> 00:59:22.039
who are essated, who the majority
society, say that you are from the

608
00:59:22.400 --> 00:59:24.480
mine, who are of the three
thousand houses that from Palma, for me

609
00:59:24.559 --> 00:59:29.760
already produce a rejection. These pastors
are there working, sitting in front of

610
00:59:29.880 --> 00:59:34.679
the drugs, facing marginality, facing
social exclusion, school failure, and those

611
00:59:34.880 --> 00:59:40.800
men do not have those resources anymore. I don' t think any of

612
00:59:40.840 --> 00:59:44.039
them don' t even have a
living wage to live on. Of them

613
00:59:44.440 --> 00:59:50.360
those pastors who are there make markets
or are working at other hours to prepare

614
00:59:50.360 --> 00:59:53.320
yes, those pastors, I say
and the ministerial body and the rest of

615
00:59:53.480 --> 01:00:00.400
members, but keep in mind that
really the autonomous state plans of city hall,

616
01:00:01.000 --> 01:00:07.920
which do have economic resources, do
not develop or do such important social

617
01:00:08.000 --> 01:00:13.199
work or are doing those evangelical churches. Yeah, without that, it'

618
01:00:13.199 --> 01:00:15.519
s pretty accurate. I am a
witness, I am the director of the

619
01:00:15.639 --> 01:00:22.199
Evangelical Council of the Churches of Barcelona
and I know all these pitfalls and from

620
01:00:22.320 --> 01:00:30.800
near and far, and it is
very true and neighborhoods like the Mina or

621
01:00:30.920 --> 01:00:37.920
San Roque and so many others,
or the Dusterín of other cities also and

622
01:00:38.880 --> 01:00:44.679
what the Gypsy churches have in those
places. And this we want to put

623
01:00:44.679 --> 01:00:46.760
into value and vindicate it, because
it is very true. Besides, I

624
01:00:46.840 --> 01:00:52.920
would say it as a sociologist also
although I am a training journalist, but

625
01:00:53.000 --> 01:00:59.480
I also have features of that.
It means where the gypsy evangelical churches are.

626
01:01:00.079 --> 01:01:07.920
They exercise a social influence, a
catalyst against the surrounding crime, against

627
01:01:07.000 --> 01:01:14.800
marginalization, against all kinds of negative
things. That is, the benign positive

628
01:01:15.119 --> 01:01:22.679
effect of the Gypsy churches. Where
they are is very high. Some politicians

629
01:01:22.760 --> 01:01:30.880
have noticed little and have favored the
ground. There are few cases, but

630
01:01:31.000 --> 01:01:35.920
there are. One of them is
the mine. By the way, the

631
01:01:36.000 --> 01:01:39.920
City Hall was very sensitive to this. But that the social influence they exert

632
01:01:40.039 --> 01:01:50.239
positive and reintegration, the redemption of
substantial changes in the Community, surrounding the

633
01:01:50.960 --> 01:01:54.400
siglesiacity, is barbarous. So this
is one thing to put into value.

634
01:01:58.440 --> 01:02:02.000
I put in a professional worker.
By chance yesterday we were in a meeting

635
01:02:02.039 --> 01:02:06.679
with a town hall here, on
the island of Tenerife, and when they

636
01:02:06.760 --> 01:02:09.920
the technicians, ask for reference that
or social worker more of community court.

637
01:02:10.440 --> 01:02:15.400
I understand that the Evangelical Church in
the case of the Gypsy people, not

638
01:02:15.480 --> 01:02:17.679
only in the Gypsy people, the
churches that work with migrations, that is,

639
01:02:17.920 --> 01:02:22.159
this is a work that the Evangelical
Church does, regardless of the last

640
01:02:22.239 --> 01:02:28.199
name we want to put assemblies of
God Philadelphia free brothers, the Evangelical Church

641
01:02:28.760 --> 01:02:32.480
in Spain is the best ally that
social services have, because in the largest

642
01:02:32.519 --> 01:02:40.159
support network that works you are interested. The evangelical people are an altruistic people,

643
01:02:40.280 --> 01:02:45.960
100 per cent of whom are on
canyons working multilevelly in different spheres.

644
01:02:47.639 --> 01:02:52.960
If there is a problem of marriage, conflict resolution or an anti- drug,

645
01:02:52.880 --> 01:02:58.840
vice, anti- crime message and
a reintegration holiday, who accepts those

646
01:02:58.960 --> 01:03:01.599
100 percent principles are not psychologists,
it' s true, but I don

647
01:03:02.400 --> 01:03:06.239
' t know what they have that
after all, one is talk, Pastor

648
01:03:06.400 --> 01:03:07.880
tells you, ends up transforming life. I don' t know what you

649
01:03:07.880 --> 01:03:10.320
' re doing. They are not
a doctor, it is true, but

650
01:03:10.400 --> 01:03:16.360
a prayer of these people produces a
well- being if the majority society were

651
01:03:16.360 --> 01:03:21.639
aware of the effects. He has
the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ

652
01:03:21.760 --> 01:03:24.760
without a doubt, although I understand
that every free and willing person has to

653
01:03:24.840 --> 01:03:30.519
take to the faith and how he
wants to live and are respectable, but

654
01:03:30.719 --> 01:03:34.440
it is sad that, as the
Gypsy people are stigmatized. I suffer from

655
01:03:34.719 --> 01:03:39.039
a number of discriminations, but I
suffer more discrimination because I am evangelical than

656
01:03:39.119 --> 01:03:42.880
because I am gypsy and sometimes because
I am gypsy because I am evangelical.

657
01:03:42.880 --> 01:03:45.320
I don' t know why I' m discriminated against anymore, but if

658
01:03:45.440 --> 01:03:50.800
there' s something that hurts me
so much, it' s discrimination that

659
01:03:50.800 --> 01:03:52.519
I also suffer because I' m
evangelical. We are stigmatized so that,

660
01:03:52.679 --> 01:04:00.880
having a message of hope, a
message of ugly resilient elements, we will

661
01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:04.920
not be able to get it to
the majority society free of prejudice. Another

662
01:04:05.039 --> 01:04:11.159
thing is that I want to assist
them later, but I do believe that

663
01:04:11.239 --> 01:04:15.239
we must fight as much as gypsies
as Latinos as evangelicals. One of the

664
01:04:15.400 --> 01:04:19.960
great problems we have in Spain is
called prejudices yes, we have to overcome

665
01:04:20.000 --> 01:04:26.519
that because, for example, I
recently launched an article in my weekly blog

666
01:04:26.559 --> 01:04:30.960
of digital protestation, which the evangelical
churches contribute to Spanish society an endless number

667
01:04:31.000 --> 01:04:38.880
of things not only laculto or cultual, which is of our vein of faith,

668
01:04:39.480 --> 01:04:43.199
of course it is very important for
us. But beyond that, the

669
01:04:45.280 --> 01:04:53.800
evangelical social work is imposing. It
is imposing comparatively and in addition that the

670
01:04:53.920 --> 01:04:59.679
car we finance with own resources from
personal donations. But this is true.

671
01:05:00.440 --> 01:05:03.760
In social mediation, in human conflicts, mediation in families, in the community

672
01:05:03.760 --> 01:05:10.519
between people, accompaniment, everything is
that value from the human point of view,

673
01:05:10.639 --> 01:05:15.880
all this is a tremendous enormous value
that we pastors and believers also bring

674
01:05:16.039 --> 01:05:26.400
to this work. There is an
interesting chapter that you have already made notes

675
01:05:26.480 --> 01:05:30.000
about the Gypsy people, Spanish citizens
of full right. That' s where

676
01:05:30.039 --> 01:05:33.920
you give us a note. Yes, to see is that many people,

677
01:05:34.119 --> 01:05:40.039
even those who have been the most
surprised up to a thousand nine hundred and

678
01:05:40.320 --> 01:05:45.119
seventy- eight, do not begin
to recognize us as full citizens, that

679
01:05:45.199 --> 01:05:48.639
is, in the case of my
families, as we are living in Melidia,

680
01:05:49.440 --> 01:05:54.639
that belonged to the Spanish protectorate in
Spain and that, in fact,

681
01:05:54.639 --> 01:05:58.639
it is still Mély of Spain.
There is one when you meet another,

682
01:05:59.079 --> 01:06:02.159
another ethnic group, another a genic
group that are in the social strata,

683
01:06:02.559 --> 01:06:08.719
moreover, you can be access to
public schools and so on. But a

684
01:06:09.159 --> 01:06:13.880
very famous singer who is Amaya remedies, who shares the Christian faith. Regardless,

685
01:06:14.039 --> 01:06:17.519
I haven' t had the pleasure
to meet her, but to have

686
01:06:17.599 --> 01:06:20.159
seen her act some time again.
She' s one of the interviews that

687
01:06:20.280 --> 01:06:25.679
makes her realize that her illusion was
to go to school. Her father,

688
01:06:25.920 --> 01:06:29.480
her mother buys her a pen and
she goes with two leaves, with her

689
01:06:29.559 --> 01:06:33.440
little eye and her pen is twelve
years old and when she goes to school,

690
01:06:34.920 --> 01:06:40.639
she is made and told that gypsies
cannot enter. A thousand nine hundred

691
01:06:40.760 --> 01:06:44.199
and eighty- five, the Amen
ochente program can be put on YouTube,

692
01:06:45.840 --> 01:06:54.280
you can see it Vicálvaro and different
central parts of Madrid are barricaded so that

693
01:06:54.440 --> 01:06:58.880
the gypsy children do not go to
school. Yeah, it' s just

694
01:06:58.880 --> 01:07:02.639
very important. A cousin of mine
who by national he. Speaking with him,

695
01:07:02.719 --> 01:07:08.480
Joseph tells me you have to keep
in mind that a good part of

696
01:07:08.559 --> 01:07:14.239
the gypsies who live in the great
cities Padrid. We' re in the

697
01:07:14.400 --> 01:07:19.880
second generation that you have sanitation at
home. I mean. It' s

698
01:07:19.880 --> 01:07:27.039
sad. It is sad to know
that there is some generation that people who

699
01:07:27.039 --> 01:07:30.760
are thirty, thirty- five years
old individuals in shantytown and, in fact,

700
01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:35.199
right now the real pregnant, as
they exceed the thousands of people who

701
01:07:35.320 --> 01:07:39.360
do not have in a plenum and
a winter kur like two years ago,

702
01:07:40.800 --> 01:07:47.760
with temperatures below five degrees, you
did not even have light. Tremendous tremendous

703
01:07:47.920 --> 01:07:54.800
is really painful. Sorry, because
this topic gives a lot of itself,

704
01:07:55.320 --> 01:08:00.679
but I love it is your descriptive
way of explaining to us and making a

705
01:08:00.800 --> 01:08:03.840
breviary, because the theme is to
read it from the Canarian punch. It

706
01:08:03.880 --> 01:08:08.119
' s the story of the Gypsy
people. Da Arvel Botch. Can you

707
01:08:08.159 --> 01:08:15.119
on Amazon platforms against José Carmona Santiago? José Carmona Santiago and this magnificent book

708
01:08:15.800 --> 01:08:19.800
make a bet a day. But
before we say goodbye, I' d

709
01:08:19.840 --> 01:08:21.880
like you to give us a review
of your book. The Cross. The

710
01:08:21.960 --> 01:08:29.199
title caught my attention, because the
Cross always strikes me. So deep is

711
01:08:29.279 --> 01:08:36.560
the inexhaustible theme and there Alex now
puts us on Facebook lights. This book

712
01:08:36.680 --> 01:08:45.079
The Cross is the result of my
personal emotions. I, although right now

713
01:08:45.159 --> 01:08:48.119
I exercise it as a pastor,
because I am in science, in research,

714
01:08:48.199 --> 01:08:51.640
because I collaborate with the different ones. It is all the churches that

715
01:08:51.720 --> 01:08:59.000
allow me to do so, so
they are part of emotional and I understand

716
01:08:59.000 --> 01:09:01.840
that the whole base, the whole
basis of Christian identity, has to do

717
01:09:01.840 --> 01:09:06.159
with the cross. Christian conversion is
the fact, as we identify with the

718
01:09:06.279 --> 01:09:11.119
work of Jesus Christ, we identify
with that death and with that resurrection.

719
01:09:12.239 --> 01:09:15.479
And from there is where the new
life is in Christ. So if we

720
01:09:15.640 --> 01:09:20.079
understand that our new life in Christ
is contact with the Cross, on the

721
01:09:20.119 --> 01:09:24.960
Cross, through the Cross, the
Cross has been an element that for centuries,

722
01:09:25.239 --> 01:09:28.279
for the Greeks, the barbarians,
the Romans, in a place of

723
01:09:28.520 --> 01:09:33.279
cruelty, of reproach, of contempt
for the Jews, even cursed, when

724
01:09:33.359 --> 01:09:38.720
Jesus is on the Cross, has
made it the symbol of hope the Cross.

725
01:09:40.159 --> 01:09:44.239
The human being who has fallen on
the Cross has been able to have

726
01:09:44.239 --> 01:09:49.560
forgiveness for his sins, salvation,
justification, redemption, and has been able

727
01:09:49.560 --> 01:09:51.920
to have expation and reconciliation with God. And if there is a transformative message

728
01:09:53.039 --> 01:09:57.880
of the peoples. It is the
message of the cross, which breaks down

729
01:09:57.920 --> 01:10:02.000
all ethnic barriers, that what you
use all even denominational barriers, which separates

730
01:10:02.000 --> 01:10:08.720
everything that can separate us. When
we get to the Cross, that'

731
01:10:08.840 --> 01:10:11.800
s where we meet. That'
s one of my big fights. My

732
01:10:11.880 --> 01:10:15.119
struggle is not focused today on what
separates us. My struggle is focused on

733
01:10:15.239 --> 01:10:19.119
what unites us. And I believe
that the element of the cross is the

734
01:10:19.560 --> 01:10:23.680
key for there to be a people
and Jesus, and by this they will

735
01:10:23.720 --> 01:10:25.640
know that you are my disciples and
their hamas to one another. And it

736
01:10:25.720 --> 01:10:29.319
is precisely in this Union with Christ, through the resurrection death of Jesus,

737
01:10:29.720 --> 01:10:35.920
that we can project a different Christianity. It is a super simple book of

738
01:10:36.000 --> 01:10:42.319
devotional character and with some brief theological
explanations of the grandeur of the Cross,

739
01:10:43.079 --> 01:10:46.520
simply because it does not reach a
particle of sand on the immense beaches of

740
01:10:46.920 --> 01:10:51.479
the depth of the Cross. How
interesting, well, what wealth, how

741
01:10:51.600 --> 01:10:56.439
many things not. And we can
see from the history of a people,

742
01:10:57.159 --> 01:11:02.000
from a people as dear to many
of us as the Gypsy people in general,

743
01:11:02.760 --> 01:11:10.840
and not also that immense number of
believers, of faithful evangelical Christians who

744
01:11:10.920 --> 01:11:19.960
are that immigration from popular Catholic religiosity
to a biblical evangelical Christianity and also to

745
01:11:20.880 --> 01:11:26.560
a whole series of expressions that go
more into the vein of the Gypsy people.

746
01:11:27.880 --> 01:11:33.359
Also then and then all the historical
avatars that are many, there are

747
01:11:33.920 --> 01:11:41.159
countless then we will also talk to
other friends, also gypsy writers, writers

748
01:11:41.279 --> 01:11:45.640
who will give us even more data
to make a bet to the day on

749
01:11:45.720 --> 01:11:50.800
this important topic. José Carmona,
the Truth, dear Saint Joseph Carmona Santiago,

750
01:11:51.399 --> 01:11:56.960
dear friend, the truth and brother
God, we will see you shortly,

751
01:11:57.239 --> 01:12:01.359
for I send you a very affectionate
embrace. Thank you so much for

752
01:12:01.439 --> 01:12:06.199
the opportunity and thanks for the beautiful
work that makes us visible the work that

753
01:12:06.279 --> 01:12:11.199
the evangelical people put us in value
in front of society. God honor you

754
01:12:11.239 --> 01:12:30.720
and God bless you. Thanks a
lot, buddy. Until always you on

755
01:12:30.800 --> 01:12:45.800
the train of life life. Today
I want to introduce you to an incomparable

756
01:12:45.800 --> 01:12:51.520
lord. I give you a view, but for your life to change who

757
01:12:53.000 --> 01:13:05.439
walks over the sea. We'
re blind already I present Jesus to you.

758
01:13:05.479 --> 01:13:15.039
I' ll make you walk ahead
of stare watch you walk in front

759
01:13:15.039 --> 01:13:19.399
of me. If it weren'
t for Jesus, I wouldn' t

760
01:13:19.600 --> 01:13:29.880
be there, but walk in front
of my face of You, look in

761
01:13:29.880 --> 01:13:36.399
front of me, son, one
last chance, that is, that you

762
01:13:36.520 --> 01:13:45.920
have at your disposal walk and let
yourself embrace Dome be a coward that he

763
01:13:45.079 --> 01:13:50.079
died for you in the cru and
shed all his blood for forgiveness of your

764
01:13:50.079 --> 01:13:59.520
sins. Jesus, don' t
stop me. Walk forward, look great

765
01:14:00.079 --> 01:14:03.479
at me walking on the side of
me, the walk looks ahead of me.

766
01:14:04.079 --> 01:14:10.840
If it wasn' t for Jesus, I dream already and hope that

767
01:14:11.000 --> 01:14:15.880
he walks before me the look walks
The camera of Aia of You, my

768
01:14:16.079 --> 01:14:33.720
camera looks ahead of me. Well, well, Mr Hallelujah, but my

769
01:14:34.119 --> 01:14:40.520
mother. I don' t want
to scratch this, nor do I want

770
01:14:40.520 --> 01:14:44.239
the money. I prepare your face- to- face. I come to

771
01:14:44.600 --> 01:14:51.079
heaven. This look ahead of this
look forward look look vintage look, look

772
01:14:51.520 --> 01:15:03.279
forward to me before you walk look
forward or become holy compare r or not.

773
01:15:17.880 --> 01:15:21.399
No. I' m sure,
but I' m not sure.

774
01:15:23.079 --> 01:15:30.720
But the Traffic and Road Safety Act
has changed. We changed the rules,

775
01:15:30.239 --> 01:15:33.960
because the way we moved has also
changed. So, now, if you

776
01:15:34.039 --> 01:15:40.159
' re not wearing your belt,
you can lose four points, new times,

777
01:15:40.560 --> 01:15:44.039
new rules. Directorate- General for
Traffic, Ministry of the Interior,

778
01:15:44.159 --> 01:15:45.960
Government of Spain. And never leave
me alone in the tub or places with

779
01:15:46.079 --> 01:15:49.479
water. Don' t let them
emit luis fingers are a hinchufi. Don

780
01:15:49.560 --> 01:15:53.399
' t leave me in the face
of an open window. You tell her

781
01:15:53.479 --> 01:15:58.600
within reach of tissue substances or a
thousand paths. You tell him to swallow

782
01:15:58.760 --> 01:16:02.319
me the small pieces of If you
neglect, your eyeball can be dangerous for

783
01:16:02.399 --> 01:16:05.359
your children. Don' t worry, avoid accidents. For what you want

784
01:16:05.439 --> 01:16:11.720
most Ministry of Health and Consumer Affairs
a Government of Spain. Juan invests 180

785
01:16:11.800 --> 01:16:16.319
euros a month in suffering. Alberto
invests 200 euros in extortion. Carlos invests

786
01:16:16.439 --> 01:16:21.359
150 euros in kidnappings. Every time
you pay you' re investing in mobs,

787
01:16:21.800 --> 01:16:27.520
extortion, harassment, help them out, don' t invest in suffering

788
01:16:27.600 --> 01:16:33.720
against trafficking in women. Be aware, Government of Spain, you travel on

789
01:16:33.840 --> 01:17:05.159
the train of life. Or ladies
and gentlemen, well, I have the

790
01:17:05.319 --> 01:17:14.800
pleasure and I believe the honor of
interviewing our friend Cfora Vargas. Sefora Vargas

791
01:17:15.079 --> 01:17:18.880
is a lawyer, also a writer, a good writer. Besides, I

792
01:17:19.000 --> 01:17:24.600
' m pleased when you look when
you write and I don' t know

793
01:17:24.720 --> 01:17:29.000
if you' re good or not
so good, because you skip not and

794
01:17:29.000 --> 01:17:30.000
say good is a writer or writer. But when he' s a good

795
01:17:30.479 --> 01:17:34.479
writer, we underline him. This
is the case of Sefora Vargas, who

796
01:17:34.600 --> 01:17:40.560
has several publications on the emancipation of
women and particularly of women in general,

797
01:17:41.319 --> 01:17:45.600
and of the gypsy woman, who
she also represents very dignifiedly. Not good,

798
01:17:45.640 --> 01:17:50.399
because she is a defender of women' s rights, also on this

799
01:17:51.199 --> 01:18:00.239
Thursday, practically this day eight that
we are celebrating just these days, which

800
01:18:00.319 --> 01:18:05.760
is International Working Women' s Day, on 8 March always this week.

801
01:18:10.199 --> 01:18:15.239
Well, today we talk to Sefora
Vargas about a book, a second book

802
01:18:15.960 --> 01:18:23.439
that is the history of the Gypsy
people. For Dumis, this is an

803
01:18:23.479 --> 01:18:30.560
addition to the survival of silenced heroes. It is an interesting book, historical,

804
01:18:31.000 --> 01:18:40.119
rigorous, dramatic, descriptive, but
also that in some way vindicates the

805
01:18:40.239 --> 01:18:44.840
figure of the citizen or gypsy,
of the man and the woman, of

806
01:18:44.840 --> 01:18:50.039
the young, of the child,
of the gypsy, which is, a

807
01:18:50.119 --> 01:18:55.560
good measure, already inserted in society. But there is still obscure in the

808
01:18:55.680 --> 01:19:00.760
social sphere about the stigma of the
gypsy. So, well, I think

809
01:19:00.840 --> 01:19:04.800
that this contribution is very interesting,
as we have seen with other authors,

810
01:19:06.199 --> 01:19:13.039
also very affectionate gypsies, like my
dear friend José Carmona, doctor in psychology,

811
01:19:13.800 --> 01:19:18.720
or Antonio Carmona also theologian and doctor
in theology, etcetera. No and

812
01:19:18.880 --> 01:19:24.560
that we have been able to talk
about these things, because I want to

813
01:19:24.800 --> 01:19:29.439
welcome Séfora Vargas, ladies and gentlemen, good morning, Séfora Hello, good

814
01:19:29.960 --> 01:19:31.479
morning, how are you? Everything. Thank you so much for the invitation.

815
01:19:32.560 --> 01:19:36.039
It' s a pleasure to be
able to hear you Séphora, how

816
01:19:36.039 --> 01:19:40.000
are you? From Andalusia, from
Seville, we don' t talk,

817
01:19:40.359 --> 01:19:44.880
yes, I' m from Seville. I live here and well, everything

818
01:19:44.880 --> 01:19:47.680
' s great. The truth is, it' s time I did a

819
01:19:47.840 --> 01:19:49.119
lot of work, because it actually
makes me a woman. It is international

820
01:19:49.199 --> 01:19:55.439
of women and with motifs of the
8th day, because they are celebrated and

821
01:19:55.520 --> 01:20:00.239
they are carried out a lot of
faction throughout the whole of the Then there

822
01:20:00.359 --> 01:20:02.880
is already a little drop go on
the 8th day because I am already flanking

823
01:20:02.880 --> 01:20:06.600
energy. Yeah, all right,
thank God. I have seen you announced

824
01:20:06.800 --> 01:20:12.880
at some public conferences on Working Women' s Day about International Women' s

825
01:20:13.399 --> 01:20:16.960
Day, International Women' s Day, and I have seen that you are

826
01:20:17.000 --> 01:20:23.960
already giving lectures. And, well, how good, how nice that you

827
01:20:24.119 --> 01:20:29.439
can so dignify the emancipation of women, of women oppressed by their rights.

828
01:20:31.960 --> 01:20:42.319
Of course, I know outside the
theme of the history of the Gypsy people

829
01:20:42.399 --> 01:20:47.399
for dumis the survival of some Sidential
heroes. This is a book that claims

830
01:20:48.479 --> 01:20:57.079
in a loud way the reintegration to
all the effects of the city or gypsy,

831
01:20:57.239 --> 01:21:00.000
of the city of Agita. Right, well, the history of the

832
01:21:00.039 --> 01:21:03.760
Agitan people for dance. It pretends
to be, and seems to be,

833
01:21:04.000 --> 01:21:13.000
thank God that I have managed to
do an exhautive study of law and comparative

834
01:21:13.079 --> 01:21:17.359
victory that encompasses not only the history
of Spain, which we also have magnificent

835
01:21:17.399 --> 01:21:21.680
historians and people who have contributed to
the discovery and the contribution of the history

836
01:21:21.680 --> 01:21:26.119
of the Gypsy people. I don' t eat e- e- e

837
01:21:26.119 --> 01:21:26.119
- e- e- e-
e- e- e- e-

838
01:21:26.119 --> 01:21:26.119
e- e- e- e- e- e- e- e

839
01:21:26.119 --> 01:21:26.119
- e- e- e-
e- e- e- e-

840
01:21:26.119 --> 01:21:26.119
e- e- e- e- e- e- e- e

841
01:21:26.119 --> 01:21:26.119
- e- e- e-
e- e- e- e-

842
01:21:26.119 --> 01:21:26.119
e- e- e- e- e- e- e- e

843
01:21:26.119 --> 01:21:26.119
- e- e- e-
e- e- e- e-

844
01:21:26.119 --> 01:21:26.119
e- e- e- e- e- e- e- e

845
01:21:26.119 --> 01:21:26.119
- e- e- e-
e- e- e- e-

846
01:21:26.119 --> 01:21:26.119
e- e- e- e- e- e- e- e

847
01:21:26.119 --> 01:21:26.119
- e- e- e-
e- e- e- e-

848
01:21:26.119 --> 01:21:26.119
e- e- e- e- e- e- e- e

849
01:21:26.119 --> 01:21:26.119
- e- e- e-
e- e- e- e-

850
01:21:26.119 --> 01:21:29.880
e- e. Manuel Martínez Martínez, in fact, is my Prologosist a

851
01:21:29.960 --> 01:21:34.439
pride to me that he has been
and a great friend. But what I

852
01:21:34.479 --> 01:21:41.000
intended was to bring history closer to
people. Why, because history is often

853
01:21:41.319 --> 01:21:45.800
written in such a technical way,
so rigorous, so difficult that so difficult

854
01:21:45.119 --> 01:21:48.000
to access, because not everyone has
the ability to understand a legal slang.

855
01:21:50.000 --> 01:21:56.920
I hear historiographical, as are the
history books and it was necessary to create

856
01:21:57.760 --> 01:22:01.199
an easy book, accessible, but
at the same time intense discouragement, where

857
01:22:01.319 --> 01:22:06.079
you would leave the national territory and
where you could compare what happened, for

858
01:22:06.159 --> 01:22:11.079
example, in the United States,
how did the gypsies arrive in the United

859
01:22:11.439 --> 01:22:15.680
States, what has been the treatment
in much of all the countries of Europe,

860
01:22:15.880 --> 01:22:18.840
how has the treatment been in the
United Kingdom? To tell unusual facts

861
01:22:19.000 --> 01:22:24.880
that are not yet known about the
Second World War and the Nazi gypsy holocaust,

862
01:22:25.399 --> 01:22:29.159
which there are many people who still
do not know, that three quarters

863
01:22:29.239 --> 01:22:39.359
of the Roma population in Europe died
and were so many rights silenced, so

864
01:22:39.520 --> 01:22:43.439
many historical events so important that,
moreover, not only have been hidden,

865
01:22:44.000 --> 01:22:46.359
but, moreover, they have almost
always been counted by people who are not

866
01:22:46.359 --> 01:22:50.880
gypsy. And thank God that at
the time they were able to get the

867
01:22:50.920 --> 01:22:58.479
story out of that hidden intraictoria,
but the identity component of ours was missing,

868
01:22:58.760 --> 01:23:00.760
there was a need for a titan
voice with a jar. How did

869
01:23:00.840 --> 01:23:04.800
these persecutions affect us, those prasmatics, for example, how is the case

870
01:23:04.880 --> 01:23:13.760
here in Spain? Not how we
lost our tongue, why our ancestor often

871
01:23:13.800 --> 01:23:16.039
joked, does not tell the anecdote
many times of a uncle of mine who

872
01:23:16.119 --> 01:23:18.920
told me to you I go through
all ears and my brother and I hid

873
01:23:19.239 --> 01:23:25.960
terrified and covered our ears and we
ran to hide. And then I discovered

874
01:23:26.039 --> 01:23:31.479
later that the cutting of the ears
was practiced as reoffending symbols for all those

875
01:23:31.560 --> 01:23:40.439
Africans who had contravened the plasmas.
Then we had to unite history, comparative

876
01:23:41.439 --> 01:23:45.279
history and, in addition, the
identity component of how it impacted, of

877
01:23:45.359 --> 01:23:49.720
how we feel and how we live
gypsy culture. And those stages of assimilation,

878
01:23:49.800 --> 01:23:56.239
which is why and that is African
victory. Then I already have people

879
01:23:56.319 --> 01:24:04.000
who have criticized me for being paranoid
in my intention to include the term for

880
01:24:04.439 --> 01:24:09.279
Damis was more than anything for making
a book that was sensitive, that was

881
01:24:09.680 --> 01:24:13.760
easy, that was counted from an
easy perspective, that was not complex.

882
01:24:15.399 --> 01:24:20.359
However, I already have a good
person, I have yesterday and I received

883
01:24:20.359 --> 01:24:26.119
a beautiful message, a criticism from
a law professor of my faculty who has

884
01:24:26.239 --> 01:24:30.960
read the book and tells me that
the book involves a research work so great

885
01:24:31.600 --> 01:24:39.279
that it deserves them to include the
term dance and the truth that touched me.

886
01:24:40.000 --> 01:24:43.560
Then I' m happy with the
work you' re doing. Yeah.

887
01:24:43.640 --> 01:24:45.600
Yeah, yeah, well, I
think it' s very interesting story

888
01:24:45.680 --> 01:24:51.439
of the Gypsy pole for Damis the
survival of some silent publishing heroes. Remember

889
01:24:51.439 --> 01:24:56.359
us, he doesn' t have
an editorial. Julio I have the custom,

890
01:24:56.880 --> 01:25:01.920
the wonderful habit of avoiding with today
I had to tell a video explaining

891
01:25:02.000 --> 01:25:06.039
why. Yes, yes, and
he explained why briefly, because in the

892
01:25:06.119 --> 01:25:14.399
first book I had criticisms of some
publishers who had the boldness of not allowing

893
01:25:14.479 --> 01:25:16.279
the cover of the first book to
be the one it was. Te.

894
01:25:16.319 --> 01:25:20.520
I appeared with my hands tied with
a rope in a defensive position. No

895
01:25:21.600 --> 01:25:26.399
and I knew perfectly well that this
image of the book had to be the

896
01:25:26.520 --> 01:25:29.720
cover, because that' s how
we have felt most women throughout history and

897
01:25:29.760 --> 01:25:35.199
especially in the Thescana. And then
they also wanted to correct me in how

898
01:25:35.600 --> 01:25:40.479
I counted some very important parts,
such as the bathroom test. I count

899
01:25:40.560 --> 01:25:44.800
it with incredible respect, both for
those who want to continue practicing it and

900
01:25:44.880 --> 01:25:49.000
people who do not want to do
it. And they wanted to change my

901
01:25:49.000 --> 01:25:56.920
narrative. And, finally, they
also wanted to forbid me from making presentations

902
01:25:57.039 --> 01:26:02.039
in humble neighborhoods or neighborhoods of social
exclusion, because I said that for a

903
01:26:02.159 --> 01:26:06.039
Nobel writer that took away. Perfu
then literally sent them for a walk and

904
01:26:06.159 --> 01:26:11.640
I told myself that in my work
I commanded that no one knows more than

905
01:26:11.640 --> 01:26:15.880
I of what I have lived,
suffered or worked, that I can affect

906
01:26:15.960 --> 01:26:20.359
orthotypeographic corrections and all the collections I
want with respect to narrative, but not

907
01:26:20.439 --> 01:26:24.199
to what I tell neither as I
tell it, let alone to the cover.

908
01:26:24.760 --> 01:26:27.560
And I already took the thing submerged
because it was great, because besides,

909
01:26:27.680 --> 01:26:31.800
that way I could reach other continents. In the United States I have

910
01:26:31.960 --> 01:26:36.640
many followers who buy me, who
read me university professors and I have stayed

911
01:26:36.760 --> 01:26:42.479
away with love. Yeah, yeah, well, perfect, perfect. Look.

912
01:26:43.000 --> 01:26:45.920
I have to publish some books and
I am thinking about Amazon more than

913
01:26:46.000 --> 01:26:53.800
anything else, because I also want
to be independent, I want to be

914
01:26:54.119 --> 01:27:00.720
myself too and I think I subscribe
to that statement look at the book The

915
01:27:00.720 --> 01:27:03.079
History of the Gypsy People. For
Dumis, the survival of non- silent

916
01:27:03.119 --> 01:27:09.479
beings is an accessible work, easy
to understand, but with an overwhelming intensity,

917
01:27:09.600 --> 01:27:14.640
as was being said, because historically, society has maintained a vision of

918
01:27:14.760 --> 01:27:17.960
the impoverished, perverse and linked gypsy
pole of crime, for having concealed the

919
01:27:18.039 --> 01:27:23.600
atrocities carried out on them, as
it was, for example, slavery,

920
01:27:24.399 --> 01:27:30.319
forced settlement, mass deportations, torture
and degrading treatment, mutilations punishments of public

921
01:27:30.399 --> 01:27:38.239
shame, exemplary punishments, drownings,
hangings, shootings, attempts at biological exterminations,

922
01:27:38.920 --> 01:27:44.439
genocides and crimes against humanity, massive
deteriorations, as was the case.

923
01:27:45.560 --> 01:27:50.960
Also from the Nazi genocide with the
Gypsies there were many medical experiments, retreaded

924
01:27:51.039 --> 01:27:56.560
from the custody of their children,
erased and lost and identity is overwhelming.

925
01:27:57.439 --> 01:28:01.600
Then the group work is total.
Your life' s work with the real

926
01:28:01.680 --> 01:28:08.600
facts of a surviving Nazi family.
I like it a lot in the first

927
01:28:08.600 --> 01:28:14.880
good, in the introduction you talk
about that about this person you knew about,

928
01:28:15.119 --> 01:28:19.399
tell us a little bit about this
case of the family survivor who had

929
01:28:19.439 --> 01:28:24.039
survived the concentration camp. Yeah,
he wants me to tell the story a

930
01:28:24.159 --> 01:28:26.960
little bit so people can come in, mouth to buy the book that needs

931
01:28:26.960 --> 01:28:29.119
to be done. This book is
a book you have to have, you

932
01:28:29.159 --> 01:28:31.680
have to buy it and go back
to it several times. It' s

933
01:28:31.760 --> 01:28:35.760
a hist ear. Thank you very
much, Julio Mira, it' s

934
01:28:35.840 --> 01:28:39.479
a hard story to tell. What
happens is that I made a step with

935
01:28:39.600 --> 01:28:42.439
that older man, with that gypsy, with the respect that we would tell

936
01:28:42.560 --> 01:28:45.640
him in due course. But I' ve silenced her since the year two

937
01:28:45.720 --> 01:28:48.520
thousand eight, which was when I
met him. I was working in an

938
01:28:48.640 --> 01:28:55.119
entity and suddenly no child, a
group of very tall gypsies, very good

939
01:28:55.199 --> 01:29:00.520
plant, apri helps us. He
needed to be a medicine for his father,

940
01:29:00.960 --> 01:29:06.920
because the father was diabetic and did
not sell him medicines without prescription.

941
01:29:09.680 --> 01:29:16.760
Respectfully. Then it caught my attention
because they were nomadic gypsies and wanderers.

942
01:29:17.680 --> 01:29:25.239
They were still living in caravans and
I was the first holdings they had with

943
01:29:25.640 --> 01:29:28.479
European gypsies at those levels. Not
then did I pick up the phone,

944
01:29:29.600 --> 01:29:33.119
we helped him and in the afternoon
they had also told me that their ladies

945
01:29:33.159 --> 01:29:36.960
had not allowed her to enter the
shops of the Center of Seville because they

946
01:29:38.039 --> 01:29:43.359
are seen leagues that were gypsy and
because there are racism and classism that there

947
01:29:43.359 --> 01:29:46.319
are many times in the big capitals, because they could not buy the summer

948
01:29:46.319 --> 01:29:49.119
shoes that they needed. So,
I, at the time, was an

949
01:29:49.920 --> 01:29:56.000
entrepreneur, had shoe stores, apart
from working in that entity, and I

950
01:29:56.159 --> 01:30:01.119
carried two boxes of two pairs of
slippers and the real ones, the beautiful

951
01:30:01.199 --> 01:30:05.439
esparto dagger shoes. He tells them
in gratitude, for he came out of

952
01:30:05.439 --> 01:30:10.399
the old man, just the one
who needed that recipe and invited me to

953
01:30:10.520 --> 01:30:15.000
his house, to his caravan and
well, he served us an exquisite tea,

954
01:30:15.479 --> 01:30:19.239
a t with fruit in between with
strawberries that I in life had tasted

955
01:30:19.279 --> 01:30:21.560
with dried fruit when I was in
that caravan. I was given the beautiful

956
01:30:21.600 --> 01:30:27.319
knitting, because it is as if
I had this first brutal encounter with the

957
01:30:28.239 --> 01:30:32.039
oldest of our identity, because,
as the Spanish gypsy people lost their identity

958
01:30:32.279 --> 01:30:36.239
almost at all levels, one of
them, because that element of movement did

959
01:30:36.359 --> 01:30:43.680
not force us to strengthen ourselves,
to leave our trades. When I was

960
01:30:43.760 --> 01:30:49.520
there and I was hallucinating and many
times I got lost even in the course

961
01:30:49.560 --> 01:30:54.000
of his conversation, there were things
that didn' t pay attention to him,

962
01:30:54.239 --> 01:30:58.840
until, suddenly, in an older
gypsy he was very magno, very

963
01:30:58.920 --> 01:31:00.520
bad, very bad. I don' t know what I had. I

964
01:31:00.960 --> 01:31:03.479
wouldn' t be around the'
90s or' 90s. So much was

965
01:31:03.560 --> 01:31:06.279
very old. I can' t
say age. A man is very revered

966
01:31:08.199 --> 01:31:13.600
as an impressive shiner like wrinkles and
scars in the soul that it was noticed,

967
01:31:14.000 --> 01:31:17.880
not and suddenly he discovers his arm, lifts it up and teaches me

968
01:31:17.960 --> 01:31:28.319
a tattooed triangle and a number like
a blade forward. Then I knew what

969
01:31:28.359 --> 01:31:32.159
I was at the time. My
body was cut off, we had tears

970
01:31:32.239 --> 01:31:38.119
sitting down and the man daughter told
me you were studying, because there to

971
01:31:38.159 --> 01:31:44.680
David I was studying straight. I' m going to tell you a story

972
01:31:44.840 --> 01:31:49.479
that no one knows and I hope
that someday you' ll tell it very

973
01:31:49.840 --> 01:31:54.399
briefly, the man told me how
he could escape a concentration camp. He

974
01:31:54.479 --> 01:31:58.039
didn' t even give me the
pis field data. It was not able

975
01:31:58.119 --> 01:32:01.560
to say what or audio, because
when I was late I had completely lost

976
01:32:01.720 --> 01:32:04.520
the notion of the time of life. It was a killing machine here.

977
01:32:04.920 --> 01:32:12.640
The older man and the man,
in an oversight by the guards who were

978
01:32:13.439 --> 01:32:18.119
guarding the barracks of the gypsy family, said that he took advantage of a

979
01:32:18.199 --> 01:32:24.760
hole that they had barbed because nights
earlier an African lady had tried to escape

980
01:32:24.800 --> 01:32:29.279
and logically had amplified her and had
beaten her to death. And then they

981
01:32:29.319 --> 01:32:32.880
had taken advantage of that barbed wire
and had a triple barbed wire that I

982
01:32:32.880 --> 01:32:36.039
had managed to make. The hole
in the three barbed wires caught his own,

983
01:32:36.279 --> 01:32:42.119
whom he could, including a little
boy or I little ones he had

984
01:32:42.840 --> 01:32:48.239
and ran away. They ran out
through the woods. Then neither his health,

985
01:32:48.840 --> 01:32:55.880
nor his shoes, nor his clothes, nor anything was nourished. You

986
01:32:55.960 --> 01:33:00.960
know what the bodies of the camp
prisoners were like. No points to imagine

987
01:33:00.079 --> 01:33:08.600
the situation, how those children were
and in that flight, in that terrifying

988
01:33:08.600 --> 01:33:12.119
stampede, because the man told you
and I couldn' t stop crying.

989
01:33:13.159 --> 01:33:16.520
As they ran, ran and ran, they began to listen to the fields

990
01:33:16.640 --> 01:33:21.600
forgiveness, to the dogs that had
already given the alarm voice, they had

991
01:33:21.680 --> 01:33:28.880
already put in the siren. They
were focusing the forest so that the vecences

992
01:33:28.960 --> 01:33:31.720
would be behind them and they could
locate him, capture him and bring us

993
01:33:31.720 --> 01:33:38.319
back to the field. They contemplate
in the midst of that agonic flight,

994
01:33:38.560 --> 01:33:43.359
his son, little boy, falls
and he thinks he broke his leg because

995
01:33:43.439 --> 01:33:46.560
of the deformity he had. Then
I didn' t stop crying. He

996
01:33:46.640 --> 01:33:51.720
panicked at the barking of the hills, at the sound of the mermaid,

997
01:33:53.720 --> 01:33:58.159
at the panic of everything he was
living, and that child couldn' t

998
01:33:58.239 --> 01:34:00.680
get over the crying or even the
pain. Then they kept getting closer to

999
01:34:00.760 --> 01:34:05.960
the dogs, sometimes they had closer. They reached a river and supposedly just

1000
01:34:06.079 --> 01:34:10.199
behind the river, they were already
entering the border with another country where they

1001
01:34:10.239 --> 01:34:15.119
could no longer be perceived. And
one didn' t even know what country

1002
01:34:15.239 --> 01:34:16.079
it was, what a fool it
was, what a river it was.

1003
01:34:16.640 --> 01:34:24.399
Nothing, not a completely traumatised mexico
memory. When they arrived at the river

1004
01:34:24.520 --> 01:34:27.800
he said that the dogs were already
at Cosner' s points, they were

1005
01:34:27.800 --> 01:34:31.520
very close. Then the father has
to make a choice between life and death,

1006
01:34:31.720 --> 01:34:38.000
between choosing to save fifteen people and
the rest of his family or not

1007
01:34:39.079 --> 01:34:43.439
doing in any way the crying in
his man took his child' s head,

1008
01:34:43.640 --> 01:34:48.359
put it under the water, rustled
the river if they were not wide

1009
01:34:48.680 --> 01:34:56.479
and when they reached the other line, logically they already arrived at a situation

1010
01:34:56.560 --> 01:35:01.560
where they were safe. They tried
the animal. Not a chance. It

1011
01:35:01.640 --> 01:35:08.399
' s hard for me to tell
it, because having to sacrifice your own

1012
01:35:08.760 --> 01:35:15.359
child to save all your family is
terrible. Then I' d had a

1013
01:35:15.520 --> 01:35:18.960
lot of years with those points and
that was in my head, but I

1014
01:35:19.039 --> 01:35:24.840
had promised him final. I'
ll tell you about it sometime. And

1015
01:35:24.920 --> 01:35:30.439
so it is, when I saw
the moral obligation to make a book where

1016
01:35:30.039 --> 01:35:34.319
everyone recongests the maximum that had come
to give my information, it does not

1017
01:35:34.319 --> 01:35:42.399
forgive here in emotions. But as
an activist, as a lawyer, as

1018
01:35:42.439 --> 01:35:46.159
a professional, I have accumulated not
only thousands of experiences of these twenty-

1019
01:35:46.239 --> 01:35:50.399
four or twenty- five years of
activism, but of knowledge of everything one

1020
01:35:50.560 --> 01:35:53.880
has to study and investigate in order
to face your profession. Not then was

1021
01:35:53.960 --> 01:35:58.800
it time for all of us to
be counted together, not only the part

1022
01:35:58.840 --> 01:36:03.199
that the distoriators count, but our
memory, the memory to nieica, the

1023
01:36:03.600 --> 01:36:10.960
memories, the importance of our religious
rituals or even in funerary, the importance

1024
01:36:11.079 --> 01:36:15.119
of the Marine system, the importance
of those survival strategies. This man was

1025
01:36:15.800 --> 01:36:18.319
a hero, but at the same
time very much for his own son.

1026
01:36:19.119 --> 01:36:24.119
Or it is terrible the sacrifice that
in some moments has had to face the

1027
01:36:24.199 --> 01:36:27.760
people of Agrican to put on me
but harder of everything up to it.

1028
01:36:28.239 --> 01:36:35.479
Until the eighties and twos the cap
was never recognized of making me what story

1029
01:36:35.760 --> 01:36:47.439
excited me against injustices. We must
fight at all costs of whatever it takes.

1030
01:36:47.880 --> 01:36:54.279
Not Jesus was the most just man
in human history, but he also

1031
01:36:54.359 --> 01:37:01.560
tells us that blessed are the peacemakers
and those who do justice. I like

1032
01:37:01.600 --> 01:37:06.560
it very much in the first chapter, our destiny can only be changed if

1033
01:37:06.680 --> 01:37:11.159
we allow ourselves to imagine a different
one. This word, this phrase is

1034
01:37:12.520 --> 01:37:18.439
precious, makes us dream of the
possibility of true change. You have to

1035
01:37:18.479 --> 01:37:23.640
dream if you don' t,
you dream, if you don' t

1036
01:37:23.760 --> 01:37:28.640
have the ability to change your reality, to imagine what your life would be

1037
01:37:28.840 --> 01:37:31.800
if it could be or give to
do you never do. You need to

1038
01:37:32.159 --> 01:37:38.920
see visions have dreams. I,
when I was a child, was unthinkable

1039
01:37:39.000 --> 01:37:44.159
many things, but I was always
sleepy. I had the magnificent opportunity and

1040
01:37:44.279 --> 01:37:48.680
luck that I was born in a
Christian, that my father would say Christian

1041
01:37:48.800 --> 01:37:53.600
and gypsies and allow me a lot, but there were things that were unthinkable,

1042
01:37:53.600 --> 01:37:57.880
even to me. And that exercise
of overcoming and believing in your own

1043
01:37:58.119 --> 01:38:02.359
are and never sell your identity,
neither your values nor your beliefs. I

1044
01:38:02.439 --> 01:38:08.000
really do make books and then the
title of that book is a little wink.

1045
01:38:08.520 --> 01:38:15.600
To this must be believed in another
opportunity and emphatic or introduce the need

1046
01:38:15.399 --> 01:38:21.800
of the Gypsy people. Not that
that' s going to be that article

1047
01:38:21.920 --> 01:38:26.479
of rewriting our own story. It
is not enough there, because we are

1048
01:38:26.479 --> 01:38:31.560
known, because as the critical qualifying
arguments adjectives that give upon us throughout the

1049
01:38:31.640 --> 01:38:38.399
history of literature, as ruffians,
the dirty, vag a thief, a

1050
01:38:38.520 --> 01:38:44.279
trapper. Well we have even been
accused that we were the ones who forged

1051
01:38:44.319 --> 01:38:49.680
the nails and chrysso imagine, there
is no legend of all colors. Then

1052
01:38:50.880 --> 01:38:59.239
we had to take that visionist look, raise up, not dignify our position

1053
01:39:00.600 --> 01:39:05.039
and create our own vision of who
it is and why we have given this

1054
01:39:05.079 --> 01:39:12.159
suffering and made it professed an assimilation. How many things there are in this

1055
01:39:12.279 --> 01:39:15.359
book and what you are saying comes
out of the heart, but also from

1056
01:39:15.359 --> 01:39:21.760
the truth, from the social truth, from the anatemization of the gypsy,

1057
01:39:21.960 --> 01:39:26.840
much more in the past and in
the present. Some stereotypes still need to

1058
01:39:28.680 --> 01:39:38.680
be overcome that are socially entangled by
saying gypsies. So it is and clear

1059
01:39:38.760 --> 01:39:43.159
when we discover good people, there
are many you are, you séphora,

1060
01:39:43.279 --> 01:39:51.640
it is, josé is or there
is a list of gypsy intellectuals who contribute

1061
01:39:51.640 --> 01:39:59.239
and who, besides, claim not
only the gypsy culture, but the reintegration

1062
01:40:00.079 --> 01:40:06.079
into the social consciousness of the gypsy
as a singular citizen, but as others

1063
01:40:06.159 --> 01:40:11.159
are and as others are. In
one of the chapters, when you say

1064
01:40:11.239 --> 01:40:15.319
claudicate or die page in these three
chapters, in bold, you say I

1065
01:40:15.359 --> 01:40:17.279
pick up the Spanish stage in a
very close and experiential way. Hence the

1066
01:40:17.399 --> 01:40:23.199
term for Damis, because I am
not only interested in exalting the two hundred

1067
01:40:23.279 --> 01:40:28.600
and fifty gypsy legal provisions that were
promulgated, but also, transfer to the

1068
01:40:28.760 --> 01:40:30.760
reader, the experiences of the persecuted, the suffering of these families. Therefore,

1069
01:40:30.960 --> 01:40:35.279
they are told by genetic memory,
by the knowledge it has transmitted to

1070
01:40:35.319 --> 01:40:42.560
us, with its community silences and
traumas and adapted with all the rigor of

1071
01:40:42.720 --> 01:40:47.640
the scientific method and gypsy historiography.
So here we are already a little bit

1072
01:40:47.680 --> 01:40:56.239
on specific cases. No, I
don' t. What I do is

1073
01:40:56.359 --> 01:40:59.439
it' s safe. A family. It is a family, the family

1074
01:40:59.720 --> 01:41:05.199
of the Eye, with all its
children, its characters, the wife of

1075
01:41:05.279 --> 01:41:13.279
Juan Dolores is not the emblematic name
Dolores suffering and in those fictional characters.

1076
01:41:14.439 --> 01:41:17.439
Actually, what it does is I
cover what really happened to all the gypsy

1077
01:41:18.479 --> 01:41:24.560
families. There comes this context of
historical professor, of assimilations, of anti

1078
01:41:25.000 --> 01:41:31.079
- gypsy laws. I' ve
heard and I' ve been told hundreds

1079
01:41:31.239 --> 01:41:35.960
of my anecdote about taking three oranges
from the Civil Guard. At the time

1080
01:41:36.039 --> 01:41:43.600
there were battles and we all know
that the righteous are not even condemnable to

1081
01:41:43.600 --> 01:41:45.520
Mexico. In other words, care
must be taken, but the presumption of

1082
01:41:45.600 --> 01:41:51.960
innocence has always been violated with the
gypsy. So, all those experiences of

1083
01:41:53.079 --> 01:41:57.880
persecutions, those events that have told
me, I have introduced it, not

1084
01:41:58.319 --> 01:42:01.520
only by telling what they achieved,
for example, the first pragmatic Catholic challenge,

1085
01:42:02.279 --> 01:42:08.640
which was the great raid, is
the first attempt at a cbiological genocide,

1086
01:42:08.760 --> 01:42:12.359
where they separated us men from women
so that we would not own them,

1087
01:42:12.640 --> 01:42:20.359
so that they would be extinguished.
I tell you how far I'

1088
01:42:20.520 --> 01:42:28.079
ve been able to find out by
investigating and interviewing skilled personnel A tidad is

1089
01:42:28.119 --> 01:42:30.319
the sum of all of their memories
is the sum of those experiences. That

1090
01:42:30.439 --> 01:42:34.920
' s why I pick up appearance
is as important as fighting, burials.

1091
01:42:35.439 --> 01:42:40.039
He respects the deceased. It'
s not a history book, it'

1092
01:42:40.159 --> 01:42:42.560
s just a lot more. That' s it. It is not the

1093
01:42:42.680 --> 01:42:48.039
mixture of history, culture, experience, lithic memory. I explain what critical

1094
01:42:48.399 --> 01:42:56.239
memory and trauma is. It is
very important, the community traumas, because

1095
01:42:56.279 --> 01:43:02.359
after the great raid there is a
generational silence, a silence so great that,

1096
01:43:02.520 --> 01:43:06.119
in reality, the majority of the
gypsy people do not even know that

1097
01:43:06.199 --> 01:43:10.720
it was the great tida. Our
mothers arrived for a moment, our great

1098
01:43:11.359 --> 01:43:15.760
- grandmothers who stopped telling us the
horrors. There are things that haven'

1099
01:43:15.840 --> 01:43:18.359
t even cost her. They'
ve never told us what the big raid

1100
01:43:18.359 --> 01:43:24.199
was. They told you one percent. They were rapping us, punishing us,

1101
01:43:24.760 --> 01:43:29.039
beating us, but they didn'
t tell you what they were separated

1102
01:43:29.039 --> 01:43:31.680
from their husbands. There is a
silence there, a silence scientifically demonstrated.

1103
01:43:32.600 --> 01:43:36.439
No, we don' t have
access to them. And then, after

1104
01:43:36.439 --> 01:43:43.560
all my research, he came to
the conclusion that if there is, for

1105
01:43:43.560 --> 01:43:47.600
example, the Lise syndrome that develops
Atrin, seven stages, which is the

1106
01:43:47.680 --> 01:43:53.880
one that occurs when an immigrant person
leaves his country, comes in pasture,

1107
01:43:54.479 --> 01:43:59.239
suffers what I drink from crossing the
sea and then tries to adapt to a

1108
01:43:59.319 --> 01:44:02.119
culture that is not his own.
Yes, yes, that is justified,

1109
01:44:02.279 --> 01:44:08.720
studied and has a name. How
is it possible that the flight is suffering

1110
01:44:08.800 --> 01:44:13.039
six hundred years, for example,
in Spain, practically of discrimination up to

1111
01:44:13.039 --> 01:44:16.399
one thousand nine hundred seventy- eight, which was proclaimed the Constitution and entered

1112
01:44:16.399 --> 01:44:19.600
the process of democracy. How is
it possible that no one has studied the

1113
01:44:19.600 --> 01:44:26.920
gican people since repective, from the
social, community, intergnidational traumas, what

1114
01:44:27.000 --> 01:44:32.560
consequence that has had No one naga
with teaching it. Then there are questions

1115
01:44:32.640 --> 01:44:38.800
and approaches that I even name the
theories that no one had done, the

1116
01:44:38.880 --> 01:44:42.880
theory of shutting up for love.
Our mothers let us teach our own self,

1117
01:44:43.920 --> 01:44:45.239
because if we talked about it,
we were worried or could kill.

1118
01:44:46.640 --> 01:44:50.000
And that' s it. We
talk about trauma, whether it' s

1119
01:44:50.119 --> 01:44:55.119
the theory of shutting up for love, we also talk about the secret,

1120
01:44:56.520 --> 01:45:01.680
the grammar, the secret of not
saying what the gypsy, the secret genes

1121
01:45:01.800 --> 01:45:09.199
the secret gene. Then it'
s very complete. The book doesn'

1122
01:45:09.399 --> 01:45:15.479
t just tell you about historical events. It is interwoven between anecdotes like the

1123
01:45:15.560 --> 01:45:23.680
one you have told us about experiences
or you make a simulation of a family

1124
01:45:23.720 --> 01:45:29.920
scene, like the one you told
us. The latter that identifies identify Let

1125
01:45:30.560 --> 01:45:34.680
' s say the social paradigm of
the Gypsies in general, seen from the

1126
01:45:34.800 --> 01:45:36.880
outside and how they did not live, not and how they did not live.

1127
01:45:38.119 --> 01:45:43.840
For example, I didn' t
just want to see July to read

1128
01:45:43.920 --> 01:45:45.680
the history of the Gypsy people.
In Spain there are hundreds of books,

1129
01:45:46.439 --> 01:45:50.680
there are many and some very good, but for you to know how they

1130
01:45:50.840 --> 01:45:57.920
lived, how they felt, they
had to be described by a gypsy person

1131
01:45:58.000 --> 01:46:00.760
and then how they ate, what
they did to eat, how they got

1132
01:46:00.760 --> 01:46:01.920
up in the morning, what you
were going through. One of them died

1133
01:46:02.159 --> 01:46:06.479
where I found him. What happened
when he wasn' t allowed to make

1134
01:46:06.600 --> 01:46:13.479
a deal. What happened when they
were already prevented from making a living?

1135
01:46:14.000 --> 01:46:16.000
This is the part that I do. What I do is that one has

1136
01:46:16.039 --> 01:46:21.079
already done so the reader automatically in
what it does is that empatist commented without

1137
01:46:23.159 --> 01:46:28.239
much in history gets in to such
an extent that in the end I suffer

1138
01:46:28.319 --> 01:46:32.039
a lot because I have people and
they have already told me about it.

1139
01:46:32.119 --> 01:46:36.399
I think there have been ten people
who have told me that the book cannot

1140
01:46:36.439 --> 01:46:43.760
read it received, that there is
already a part of the book where they

1141
01:46:43.880 --> 01:46:47.920
suffer so much that it causes anxiety
and that they have to stop reading about,

1142
01:46:48.199 --> 01:46:54.079
two or three days and then take
them back from the intensity it has.

1143
01:46:54.520 --> 01:46:59.159
Yes, it is a very intense
book, but it is intertwined with

1144
01:46:59.359 --> 01:47:04.880
these anecdotes that are very descriptive and
also the stories, for example, the

1145
01:47:05.000 --> 01:47:12.199
gypsies in the Americas, brief study
on slavery in general and especially the slavery

1146
01:47:12.279 --> 01:47:16.359
of the gypsies in Romania, the
chronology of exhaustive persecution and much more.

1147
01:47:18.600 --> 01:47:23.960
The geometry of hatred, the Nazi
horror in the fields and many things derived

1148
01:47:24.520 --> 01:47:29.560
from them gitated them in England and
Scotland and many more. Survival strategies,

1149
01:47:29.720 --> 01:47:33.760
the theory of shutting up for love
and the power of the verb. There

1150
01:47:33.760 --> 01:47:40.760
is, for example, gypsy engineering. It' s also another very interesting

1151
01:47:40.880 --> 01:47:53.079
thing you describe here in this book. True yes, I love giving names

1152
01:47:53.199 --> 01:47:59.359
to things that society had not named. Gypsy engineering is the ability, resilience,

1153
01:48:00.920 --> 01:48:04.920
the ingenuity that a gican people have
had to power over it. That

1154
01:48:05.039 --> 01:48:09.600
' s what I had to put
my name on. They are social engineers,

1155
01:48:10.560 --> 01:48:16.760
of great intentions, of supervisory strategies
and there is bread from tricks to

1156
01:48:17.800 --> 01:48:26.800
be able to sell a lame horse, as it was to prick an intention

1157
01:48:26.920 --> 01:48:29.239
of I do not remember what it
was now. I don' t think

1158
01:48:29.239 --> 01:48:32.800
I remember now my memory fails,
but I' ve got it pointed out

1159
01:48:32.800 --> 01:48:35.319
for him to leave. It was
like a relaxing pocular, to lengthen his

1160
01:48:35.800 --> 01:48:42.319
leg and hide the coast from those
tricks that today I could say that'

1161
01:48:42.439 --> 01:48:46.279
s an escape, it' s
a hidden vice. The moment has been

1162
01:48:46.399 --> 01:48:51.359
sold in the midst of that oppression
and persecution. If what they had in

1163
01:48:51.439 --> 01:48:57.359
a lame burrito or they had to
sell it you know, then it goes

1164
01:48:57.439 --> 01:49:04.720
from those survival strategies to great intentions
of knowing the breasts of nature, of

1165
01:49:04.840 --> 01:49:11.359
how to know the time, depending
on the flowers, of how to be

1166
01:49:11.560 --> 01:49:15.920
able to deduce the time they incline
the theriological, depending on how the flowers

1167
01:49:15.000 --> 01:49:21.520
were opened or created, of how
they left silueles when there was neither the

1168
01:49:21.640 --> 01:49:27.239
phone nor the whatsapp to be able
to communicate with other relatives of theirs who

1169
01:49:27.239 --> 01:49:31.359
came after them. So they'
re such nice things that I' ve

1170
01:49:31.439 --> 01:49:36.439
been able to investigate, and I' ve been able to scratch every place

1171
01:49:36.439 --> 01:49:40.199
that was worth putting together the clears. And there are also survival strategies that

1172
01:49:40.319 --> 01:49:44.359
are very hard I speak it,
to the rest I speak from my family

1173
01:49:44.399 --> 01:49:50.079
' s team. There were people
who had to change their surname to avoid

1174
01:49:50.199 --> 01:49:57.720
persecution and tense ones. There are
people who have had to live who were

1175
01:49:58.399 --> 01:50:02.680
titans in order to survive people,
for example, in the UK, who

1176
01:50:02.680 --> 01:50:06.399
there, specifically the Gypsies, were
very dark when they arrived and called him

1177
01:50:06.439 --> 01:50:13.560
the Christian. Also in order to
change their appearance they began to mix with

1178
01:50:13.680 --> 01:50:17.720
more blonde, whiter or dangerous women
so that there would be mutations in the

1179
01:50:17.720 --> 01:50:25.600
meth. Imagine to the point,
to what extent the engineering of survival was

1180
01:50:25.720 --> 01:50:30.840
set in motion to be able to
face persecution and death is strong. And

1181
01:50:31.039 --> 01:50:35.359
now he' s also invited that
there are people and they tell me,

1182
01:50:35.600 --> 01:50:38.279
but don' t tell me that. No, don' t count how

1183
01:50:38.359 --> 01:50:41.920
I won' t tell if I
have a commitment to absolute truth and to

1184
01:50:42.000 --> 01:50:45.279
history, as I' m going
to. For example, my grandfather,

1185
01:50:45.359 --> 01:50:50.520
my father' s military diego,
that he was if I gave you your

1186
01:50:50.560 --> 01:50:56.640
day of words. Don' t
see you. Yes, yes, it

1187
01:50:56.760 --> 01:50:59.880
' s very strong. Yeah,
yeah, yeah, look at that jutism.

1188
01:51:00.119 --> 01:51:03.000
It changes them a lot gypsy that
they had to do it, and

1189
01:51:03.119 --> 01:51:08.600
not because they had an ideology from
right to cream much less, but because

1190
01:51:08.640 --> 01:51:12.399
it was the way to ally you
on one side or another in order to

1191
01:51:12.399 --> 01:51:16.880
survive, to protect. I can
support their families with something exact another acquaintance

1192
01:51:17.000 --> 01:51:19.760
that I put in my book as
well. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

1193
01:51:19.840 --> 01:51:24.800
yeah, no, it' s
not interesting. It' s just that

1194
01:51:24.920 --> 01:51:30.560
well I' m going to remind
our listeners that we' re talking to

1195
01:51:30.720 --> 01:51:35.560
Vargas and look at history of the
Gypsy people for Damis the survival of silenced

1196
01:51:35.560 --> 01:51:40.119
heroes. Without a doubt they have
been now many years ago, they have

1197
01:51:40.239 --> 01:51:45.159
not, because we are talking to
someone properly gypsy and we have talked and

1198
01:51:45.199 --> 01:51:53.159
talked these days with several gypsy intellectuals
who, besides they also have a confessional

1199
01:51:53.199 --> 01:51:59.119
Christian worldview of life. In addition, this, then, also enriches one

1200
01:51:59.119 --> 01:52:02.640
of the already practically last chapters,
the brief topic consideration on gypsy identity,

1201
01:52:03.319 --> 01:52:10.520
a chapter where the conventional parameters from
where they have studied and considered us are

1202
01:52:10.560 --> 01:52:15.359
broken and criticized. You tell us
a break with anthropology, sociology and a

1203
01:52:15.439 --> 01:52:20.199
critique of medicine for not having developed
or studied the diseases that concern the Gypsy

1204
01:52:20.279 --> 01:52:28.520
people specifically. This, this is
big. Yeah, it' s strong.

1205
01:52:28.640 --> 01:52:30.560
Yeah, somebody had to say it
and it' s my turn.

1206
01:52:31.319 --> 01:52:35.319
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, yeah, let' s

1207
01:52:35.880 --> 01:52:39.800
start with the first thing that'
s been followed by anthropology. No,

1208
01:52:40.119 --> 01:52:45.000
yeah, yeah, look, when
I was six, I couldn' t

1209
01:52:45.199 --> 01:52:50.199
find books referring to the history of
the gypsy people. I asked my father,

1210
01:52:50.439 --> 01:52:55.159
my good mother, who knows the
right of the Gypsy people and always

1211
01:52:55.560 --> 01:53:00.800
had the same answer. And that' s already been lost, but it

1212
01:53:00.840 --> 01:53:04.800
' s worth nothing. If we' re still here in the hospital,

1213
01:53:04.800 --> 01:53:09.039
there' ll be something. There
was such a big void. He stopped

1214
01:53:09.159 --> 01:53:12.560
to know. He made me do
a lot of research, but until the

1215
01:53:12.560 --> 01:53:15.920
eighties and sixs and eighty- seven
eighty- eight there were no good publications

1216
01:53:15.920 --> 01:53:23.399
on this. Then, a few
years later, a prolification of publications and

1217
01:53:23.520 --> 01:53:30.680
books begins that certain anthropologists with a
very strong respect and consideration at national and

1218
01:53:30.800 --> 01:53:36.920
international level. Where they pass that
the identity to titana was practically unexcindable,

1219
01:53:38.600 --> 01:53:44.840
of the marginality and of the poverty
in Lafan. When I read that to

1220
01:53:44.880 --> 01:53:48.439
me it' s a very decent
I did, a rehearsal people. You

1221
01:53:48.520 --> 01:53:55.880
can say that, because of the
assimilation, the persecution, the historical and

1222
01:53:56.199 --> 01:54:00.439
political processes, the suffering of war, the civil war, the persecution of

1223
01:54:00.560 --> 01:54:04.039
the franc, the regime of the
Second Republic, that the law that will

1224
01:54:04.159 --> 01:54:11.479
catch thugs is not nourished by the
frankness of the Second Republic. You can

1225
01:54:11.560 --> 01:54:15.279
tell me that, based on all
the legislation that has followed logically, there

1226
01:54:15.359 --> 01:54:23.000
has not been an ostrafism and an
enormous economic, critical and cultural delay and

1227
01:54:23.079 --> 01:54:26.560
that is that fr can. But
you cannot say that the identity of which

1228
01:54:26.640 --> 01:54:32.399
the giants are inextensible from misery,
because it is causality. It is the

1229
01:54:32.600 --> 01:54:38.479
cause of that time that the book, that part, that specific chapter,

1230
01:54:38.960 --> 01:54:42.720
is a criticism, but to the
way in which we have been studied,

1231
01:54:43.039 --> 01:54:46.680
to the approaches that have been made
many cases without ricotor and moreover, we

1232
01:54:46.800 --> 01:54:50.399
have been studied in a biased way
on the one hand, anthropologists, on

1233
01:54:50.479 --> 01:54:56.520
the other, sociologists by others,
historians, doctors have not even paid attention

1234
01:54:56.520 --> 01:55:01.199
to us. There are many important
gretical flats that your friend gtana that because

1235
01:55:01.319 --> 01:55:06.279
of this that our culture many times
three montabou do not say, but I

1236
01:55:06.359 --> 01:55:13.239
know cases where they have been born
with three facts and that is very related

1237
01:55:13.239 --> 01:55:18.159
also to problems of inbreeding to marry
each other cousins brothers, cousins brothers very

1238
01:55:18.279 --> 01:55:25.279
many, many problems of hormonals,
desutism, women who have a lot of

1239
01:55:25.359 --> 01:55:29.439
hairs, even men who have developed
breast more than they have had to have

1240
01:55:29.439 --> 01:55:34.760
surgery. It has not occurred to
anyone to think that it is the result

1241
01:55:34.840 --> 01:55:41.079
of many historical causes, it has
had a direct impact on health, or

1242
01:55:41.239 --> 01:55:45.600
that certain internal circumstances of culture,
as in inbreeding, already by result a

1243
01:55:45.640 --> 01:55:49.359
series of consequences, a series of
diseases. So, the book is also

1244
01:55:49.520 --> 01:55:56.560
a criticism of those lack of rigorousness, that lack of study and that lack

1245
01:55:56.600 --> 01:56:08.159
of will to contend with a very
interesting decr. It becomes essential as we

1246
01:56:08.239 --> 01:56:14.720
talk to Sefora Vargas that to enter
into matter, I advise our listeners of

1247
01:56:14.800 --> 01:56:20.199
the train of life in so many
Spanish cities to take this book from the

1248
01:56:20.279 --> 01:56:30.600
platform also of Amazon. You are
the author Acéfora Vargas, this dear lawyer

1249
01:56:30.720 --> 01:56:36.319
and also a lecturer. The story
of the Gypsy people for Damis and the

1250
01:56:36.520 --> 01:56:44.039
survival of silenced heroes. One topic
is the subtitle no, but very interesting

1251
01:56:44.279 --> 01:56:50.760
to be up to date and find
answers. I believe that social natermination of

1252
01:56:50.920 --> 01:56:58.359
the gypsy. I believe we are
in a process of change and social change.

1253
01:56:58.479 --> 01:57:03.640
I mean. You' re asking
me. I say I don'

1254
01:57:03.720 --> 01:57:12.760
t think out loud. I am
a little costy July, because, in

1255
01:57:12.840 --> 01:57:17.680
my view, we have a regression
in values, in rights and in the

1256
01:57:17.960 --> 01:57:26.960
evolution of the pelostal. If society
in general, we are suffering from the

1257
01:57:27.039 --> 01:57:30.640
shame of bad political decisions of the
covid crisis. After the Covid, the

1258
01:57:30.760 --> 01:57:35.600
post Covid has changed the lives of
many people and is changing the economic situation

1259
01:57:35.760 --> 01:57:42.039
and has left many people in the
Gypsy cube. There are other issues that

1260
01:57:42.159 --> 01:57:49.399
affect him and especially the mutation.
In my view, he could still have

1261
01:57:49.560 --> 01:57:57.880
adapted. There are some weighty arguments
I don' t want to discuss here.

1262
01:57:58.479 --> 01:58:00.960
It is not going to be appropriate, but above all that is related

1263
01:58:00.039 --> 01:58:08.119
to radicalist positions of the Bible and
interpretations that are sometimes very delicate, that

1264
01:58:08.199 --> 01:58:13.119
are very stopped and end up being
behaviors are sometimes scavenging where they are re

1265
01:58:13.439 --> 01:58:17.840
- invisibilizing and is re- dinnering
progress, no longer just the silence of

1266
01:58:18.079 --> 01:58:24.920
women. We are talking about progress, the ability to leave, the ability

1267
01:58:25.039 --> 01:58:29.880
to work, the ability to work
in other jobs, in other social roles.

1268
01:58:30.399 --> 01:58:33.560
I believe that everything that evolved in
the first moment with the Gospel,

1269
01:58:33.800 --> 01:58:39.520
which was extraordinary because it helped many
gypsies to get out of that situation of

1270
01:58:39.560 --> 01:58:45.640
social exclusion, is today well sectioned
by bad paintings. I was remembering your

1271
01:58:45.760 --> 01:58:53.920
previous book than about the emancipation of
women. Remember is the title called the

1272
01:58:54.000 --> 01:59:00.000
price of freedom, which cost some
gypsy women to be free. There'

1273
01:59:00.000 --> 01:59:03.720
s two of them. This book
can also be obtained by Amazon. Also

1274
01:59:05.560 --> 01:59:10.279
Yes, the two books are in
love with the appreciation of our friend'

1275
01:59:10.399 --> 01:59:16.039
s freedom if it were vargas.
It was dealt with there, Yes,

1276
01:59:17.439 --> 01:59:20.399
it was about the she specific approach
of women, as it is logical,

1277
01:59:20.640 --> 01:59:23.760
although in this one I also do, because in this book I talk about

1278
01:59:23.760 --> 01:59:28.000
the Marine system. The marine system
is inspired by the system of the pure

1279
01:59:28.119 --> 01:59:30.800
and unimpure, as it could in
the Old Testament, in the Jewish seye

1280
01:59:30.920 --> 01:59:35.079
of purity, impurity and woman.
And how today, because we continue to

1281
01:59:35.119 --> 01:59:42.960
be unconsciously affected by that scroll and
continue to determine customs. But the Book

1282
01:59:43.039 --> 01:59:47.800
of Enterprises of Freedom, my Strong
Book, where you check the price that

1283
01:59:47.880 --> 01:59:55.159
cost us that first generation of gypsy
women break with social bites, we suffer

1284
01:59:55.159 --> 02:00:02.800
trigeo, quadruple, description and create
new gypsy identities, new values, a

1285
02:00:02.800 --> 02:00:09.680
thing as simple as it is to
show that studying as until you lose your

1286
02:00:09.720 --> 02:00:15.159
identity as a gypsy gave us blood, sweat and tear. I remember going

1287
02:00:15.199 --> 02:00:18.479
for the merchadin myself and many people
criticized and looked at me badly. I

1288
02:00:18.600 --> 02:00:24.199
remember and in pants and condemn myself
and put in sin three quarters of the

1289
02:00:24.239 --> 02:00:28.319
titan population and trousers front in our
meshes that are put on. Now that

1290
02:00:28.439 --> 02:00:34.920
they all mark it, then everything
that has symbolized a self- determining and

1291
02:00:35.039 --> 02:00:42.920
camera exercise on the xican woman is
still a conviction. He' s still

1292
02:00:42.920 --> 02:00:45.640
a danger. He' s a
Christ of danger. Two days ago,

1293
02:00:45.960 --> 02:00:51.159
I received attacks from angelic pastors,
where she spoke to me as if I

1294
02:00:51.199 --> 02:00:58.680
had been a vulgar feminist. You' re a vulgar feminist Look at the

1295
02:00:58.680 --> 02:01:03.920
camentelable hour. Forgive ignorance is magnified
and ignorance is very bad, ignorance of

1296
02:01:04.760 --> 02:01:12.039
things, of the identity of people, of the reality of things. And

1297
02:01:12.399 --> 02:01:15.920
of course, ignorance is very daring. And then, well, that is

1298
02:01:16.039 --> 02:01:24.239
why these contemptuous attitudes are born and
between us it happens not only in the

1299
02:01:24.279 --> 02:01:29.720
Gypsy people, but in the Christian
people in general. There is a lot

1300
02:01:29.720 --> 02:01:33.319
of ignorance, a lot, but
a magnified ignorance and you have to get

1301
02:01:33.319 --> 02:01:36.399
out of that circle. Yes,
yes, yes, yes, many times

1302
02:01:36.520 --> 02:01:41.880
my own father, my brother,
tells me, but don' t write

1303
02:01:42.279 --> 02:01:45.319
anything, but let' s see. Forgive what my profession is, that

1304
02:01:45.640 --> 02:01:49.680
all revolutions began by an act of
rebellion, especially the laws, and are

1305
02:01:49.840 --> 02:01:58.640
unjust or unconstitutional or contrary to human
rights. They can' t be respected

1306
02:01:58.680 --> 02:02:04.119
as simple as that is legitimate is
the but of course, that' s

1307
02:02:04.239 --> 02:02:09.439
easy to say, but you face
it every day by saying woman and being

1308
02:02:09.439 --> 02:02:12.079
gypsy, it can complicate the truth. Yeah, well, thank you,

1309
02:02:12.399 --> 02:02:15.399
Jadeo. He' s been very
brave. That forum has been very brave.

1310
02:02:15.520 --> 02:02:19.359
If I congratulate you, thank you
very much. I really do.

1311
02:02:20.479 --> 02:02:27.439
Besides, you' re saying things
of common sense and against humanity and besides,

1312
02:02:29.319 --> 02:02:31.800
things that both inside and outside.
We have to make a bet a

1313
02:02:32.399 --> 02:02:38.399
day of this, of this kind
of principles and, of course, the

1314
02:02:38.880 --> 02:02:42.079
theme of your book is also very
interesting. I think we' ll be

1315
02:02:42.720 --> 02:02:45.880
able to enjoy it. You have
to enjoy this book History of the Gypsy

1316
02:02:45.960 --> 02:02:51.119
people for Damis the survival of silenced
heroes and they have certainly been silenced.

1317
02:02:51.439 --> 02:02:55.920
But not anymore, it' s
not over anymore. You have to break

1318
02:02:56.000 --> 02:03:00.720
the silence and leave varga. It' s being built. That' s

1319
02:03:00.840 --> 02:03:03.479
it, so be out. The
truth is that it has been a great

1320
02:03:03.560 --> 02:03:10.520
pleasure to talk to you, listen
to you, listen to your statements and

1321
02:03:10.680 --> 02:03:13.079
listen to your heart, that this
is what I like to hear better.

1322
02:03:13.479 --> 02:03:15.720
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, well, I just don' t

1323
02:03:15.760 --> 02:03:20.479
know how to talk about another humanity
that I' m honest with and always

1324
02:03:20.560 --> 02:03:24.720
go straight ahead, despite the consequences, so I always tell the truth,

1325
02:03:25.079 --> 02:03:28.039
not as doomed to tell the truth, but I wanted to thank you.

1326
02:03:28.760 --> 02:03:34.239
Thank you for giving me a hole
in your beautiful show. Thank you size

1327
02:03:34.239 --> 02:03:39.640
visibility, the story that so concrete
today in Mira and for doing this beautiful

1328
02:03:39.720 --> 02:03:44.520
and wonderful interview with a lot of
pleasure and an honor. He' s

1329
02:03:44.520 --> 02:03:46.920
with you. Thank you very much, with pleasure, eager to greet you

1330
02:03:47.039 --> 02:03:51.680
on one of my visits to Seville
and see us there that I have so

1331
02:03:51.840 --> 02:03:55.560
many friends, it will be a
pleasure, an honor. Meet you in

1332
02:03:55.560 --> 02:03:58.560
person, of course I do.
Of course I do. This year it

1333
02:03:58.640 --> 02:04:03.359
is planned that Go, for good, because until soon sephora, we speak

1334
02:04:03.399 --> 02:04:08.760
again and God Median will continue to
travel on the train of life. Likewise,

1335
02:04:09.119 --> 02:04:54.479
yes, goodbye, many blessings.
Bye bye Chaoy I have the decesity

1336
02:04:54.680 --> 02:05:06.600
of my soul of Ramba. I
want to brown your man oy. I

1337
02:05:06.960 --> 02:05:19.119
want to stop the time locked in
my room. I want to worship your

1338
02:05:21.760 --> 02:05:42.600
man you are, and I want
to break the jar that I keep for

1339
02:05:42.880 --> 02:06:11.000
years and to branch it to your
foot venerfomar your holy throne on my knees

1340
02:06:14.560 --> 02:06:45.000
and chorado proclaim that love venguadorta love
before you show amara, venguadorata loves before

1341
02:06:45.000 --> 02:07:00.840
you, show him or I don' t want to ask you to walk

1342
02:07:00.840 --> 02:07:00.840
away, I want to see you
pour out the alarm, I want to

1343
02:07:00.840 --> 02:07:08.159
see you a king, offer you
a young man. To dedicate these words

1344
02:07:08.880 --> 02:07:24.720
to you only. Oy want to
promise me the fraspo that keeps durandaño and

1345
02:07:25.199 --> 02:07:53.039
brother your smoke your throne holy dero
say lady, proclaim you want to look

1346
02:07:57.399 --> 02:08:26.279
venguara mana amara before it shows me
bites me, mom, before showing mom,

1347
02:08:26.840 --> 02:09:15.359
come guarate, mom before prostra?
When they called my or beloved,

1348
02:09:22.159 --> 02:10:01.560
we love me we anterior plama ma
venguadora, loves before prostra until the one

1349
02:10:01.680 --> 02:10:09.800
coming today closer than ever we invite
you to the second edition of this Interdenominational

1350
02:10:09.960 --> 02:10:15.119
Congress aimed at the whole Body of
Christ in Spain and Europe, which will

1351
02:10:15.479 --> 02:10:18.079
take place from 26th to 28th April
in the Fira de Reus, Tarragona.

1352
02:10:18.640 --> 02:10:26.279
With us will be international speakers Mariano
sen Igual, Benjamin Núñez and Marcos Brunet

1353
02:10:26.680 --> 02:10:39.479
All Walton wamado bi bu famed.
For more information you can enter our wwwww

1354
02:10:39.680 --> 02:10:46.399
website. Until he comes point is
either write to the six about, six,

1355
02:10:46.840 --> 02:10:50.680
eight, eight, one, five, seven, one, six hundred,

1356
02:10:52.199 --> 02:10:56.079
sixteen, eight hundred eighty- one, five hundred seventy- one and

1357
02:10:56.199 --> 02:11:01.239
consult prices and registration modalities. Do
not miss the opportunity to participate in this

1358
02:11:01.359 --> 02:11:09.159
great call. Until he comes.
Until he comes to her, he prunes

1359
02:11:09.439 --> 02:11:31.920
home before turia and ramado and everything
or you will see the train of life,

1360
02:11:33.199 --> 02:11:39.520
an exciting journey along the routes of
the heart, an unforgettable journey at

1361
02:11:39.680 --> 02:12:37.880
the pace of clan train so much
or, ladies and gentlemen, we continue

1362
02:12:37.960 --> 02:12:41.439
on the train of life. Antonio, how are you, how are you

1363
02:12:41.560 --> 02:12:46.119
doing out there, in your town, where are you exactly good? I

1364
02:12:46.239 --> 02:12:48.079
' m in the palms of Grancanaria. I don' t know if I

1365
02:12:48.199 --> 02:12:52.439
' m heard perfect now. Yeah, all right, good day, thank

1366
02:12:52.439 --> 02:12:56.239
God. Yeah, a little frisket, but we' re going hot.

1367
02:12:58.119 --> 02:13:05.920
All right, all right. Antonio, Antonio, Antonio Carmona, also graduated

1368
02:13:05.960 --> 02:13:11.800
in Theology, Doctor in Divinities,
magnificent writer. Where you know, we

1369
02:13:11.000 --> 02:13:20.920
were talking to your cousin, José
Carmona, about the subject we are talking

1370
02:13:20.960 --> 02:13:30.359
about this morning about the whole Gypsy
world and how you give him personality and

1371
02:13:30.560 --> 02:13:39.000
also historical contributions to make a social
pedagogy of what is the history of the

1372
02:13:39.159 --> 02:13:46.600
Gypsy people in general and also the
Gypsy world in Spain and their contributions and

1373
02:13:46.720 --> 02:13:52.960
their real needs. So here we
are this morning talking about this, but

1374
02:13:54.000 --> 02:13:56.079
talking about your books. Precisely you
have a book before the last that you

1375
02:13:56.159 --> 02:14:01.319
have published Freedom for the Forgotten,
what you wanted to do with this book,

1376
02:14:01.720 --> 02:14:05.640
what you wanted to say what your
message was. Well, this book

1377
02:14:05.720 --> 02:14:09.920
was my master' s thesis in
the know yes, and what I intended

1378
02:14:11.239 --> 02:14:16.479
is to claim those forgotten ones that
we have been the gypsies for a long

1379
02:14:16.520 --> 02:14:22.119
time and from the theological point of
view, for I have tried to make

1380
02:14:22.119 --> 02:14:24.640
my pinitos, as it is usually
said, because I have spoken of liberation

1381
02:14:24.640 --> 02:14:30.560
theology. It was practically a people
oppressed by the society we lived in and

1382
02:14:31.319 --> 02:14:35.199
where we lived and had hopes.
Our hope has been the word of God,

1383
02:14:35.720 --> 02:14:39.359
the living Christ, which has been
transformed into our hearts and that the

1384
02:14:39.439 --> 02:14:46.560
Gypsy community is a community with great
power, much, this is a church

1385
02:14:46.640 --> 02:14:50.960
with great potential and good, today
we can see it in the Church of

1386
02:14:50.039 --> 02:14:56.960
Philadelphia and other Gypsy churches that have
done extraordinary work in our country. Yeah,

1387
02:14:56.239 --> 02:15:00.479
yeah, that' s exactly what
we' re talking about. But

1388
02:15:00.560 --> 02:15:05.520
you, speaking there of Christians,
that is, of this world, of

1389
02:15:05.520 --> 02:15:11.560
the forgotten, referred to marginality,
truth freedom part of marginality, of course,

1390
02:15:11.720 --> 02:15:16.079
from the point of view, well, what was a multidisciplinary study from

1391
02:15:16.159 --> 02:15:24.000
an anthropological, philosophical, theological,
historical point of view and also to know

1392
02:15:24.000 --> 02:15:31.239
a little bit about the history of
the Gypsy people and how we inserted ourselves

1393
02:15:31.319 --> 02:15:37.159
in Spain. Yeah, well,
this book is also available. You can

1394
02:15:37.279 --> 02:15:43.399
get it on Amazon, right good. I think so, the book was

1395
02:15:43.479 --> 02:15:50.560
distributed by scaffolding. Yes, and
now possibly another publisher will edit it.

1396
02:15:50.359 --> 02:15:54.640
I think it' ll be just
a trust in this project. All right,

1397
02:15:54.800 --> 02:16:00.279
very good perfect for those interested.
And let' s talk about this

1398
02:16:00.359 --> 02:16:05.920
last book, which is yours,
before going on to give the review of

1399
02:16:05.000 --> 02:16:09.039
this book, The Bible, from
its beginnings to the translations in Spanish,

1400
02:16:09.560 --> 02:16:16.800
spoken a little bit of you.
Antonio Carmona, Heredia, graduated in Theology

1401
02:16:16.920 --> 02:16:22.640
from the Martín Lutter King University of
Nincaragua, graduated in Pastoral Theology from the

1402
02:16:22.720 --> 02:16:26.640
Center for Biblical Research ciby also has
a master' s degree in Theology from

1403
02:16:28.079 --> 02:16:33.760
the same Center of Studies Knows in
Tenerife, Spain, an honorary doctorate in

1404
02:16:33.159 --> 02:16:41.079
Divinities and a bachelor' s degree
in Theology from the Doctor wilds Hower Theological

1405
02:16:41.079 --> 02:16:46.079
Seminary in Chile. You also have
a degree in theology from the Universidad del

1406
02:16:46.159 --> 02:16:50.079
Norte de España, seat of Burgos. Anyway, you' ve devoted yourself

1407
02:16:50.319 --> 02:16:56.200
to matter in depth for many years. Bible and Truth Theology. Well,

1408
02:16:56.440 --> 02:17:03.799
yeah, I really liked studying because
I thought that one needed training. Well,

1409
02:17:03.319 --> 02:17:07.760
I think it' s important to
train, because it' s important

1410
02:17:07.799 --> 02:17:11.879
to talk about the word, but
with a formation, because if we don

1411
02:17:13.000 --> 02:17:16.239
' t have training then the problems
come and I think we need to be

1412
02:17:16.239 --> 02:17:18.000
careful. And in addition, the
Lord tells us in his word that we

1413
02:17:18.040 --> 02:17:22.840
have to prepare ourselves. No,
and now the forties or fifties are over.

1414
02:17:24.360 --> 02:17:28.879
We are already in the year two
thousand twenty- four and well,

1415
02:17:28.959 --> 02:17:33.280
I' ve been preparing for some
time now some long years. But we

1416
02:17:33.319 --> 02:17:37.239
must prepare ourselves because we have to
bear witness and reason for our faith.

1417
02:17:39.000 --> 02:17:43.559
That' s right and you'
ve collaborated on different literary projects, such

1418
02:17:43.120 --> 02:17:50.319
as Clie' s Great Dictionary of
the Psychopleric Bible, various journals of scientific

1419
02:17:50.399 --> 02:17:56.120
and academic kracter of Jornald and also, well, the book we' re

1420
02:17:56.200 --> 02:18:01.200
mentioning to you. Freedom for the
forgotten, this gypsy theological perspective, which

1421
02:18:01.280 --> 02:18:05.040
was also published by Editorial Mundo Bíblico
and your book Now The Bible, from

1422
02:18:05.120 --> 02:18:13.280
its beginnings to translations in Spanish,
and you have also collaborated in You have

1423
02:18:13.360 --> 02:18:20.280
made contributions in the Bible that Clie
has recently published on the patristic contributions of

1424
02:18:20.399 --> 02:18:24.440
the church' s parents. Also
in this book you do a collaboration.

1425
02:18:26.719 --> 02:18:31.120
Yeah, I' ve worked on
four final articles, mostly related to my

1426
02:18:31.120 --> 02:18:35.719
book. Talked a little bit about
the text of Hebraico, the sextualient of

1427
02:18:35.799 --> 02:18:45.760
the Vulgate and yet another subject,
very interesting Antonio The Bible since its origins.

1428
02:18:46.120 --> 02:18:52.000
This book has two distinct parts,
as expressed in the subtitle, from

1429
02:18:52.520 --> 02:19:00.200
its beginnings to Spanish translations. In
the first part of dedicating the yes in

1430
02:19:00.280 --> 02:19:05.479
the first pages, the first four
chapters, and in them dealing with the

1431
02:19:05.520 --> 02:19:09.239
questions of the formation of the Old
Testament and the role of the Greek version,

1432
02:19:11.280 --> 02:19:16.799
also of the Septuagint and the new
Latin translation of the Old Testament by

1433
02:19:16.920 --> 02:19:22.719
Jerome from the Hebrew. And in
these pages you make some very interesting contributions

1434
02:19:24.000 --> 02:19:31.879
towards a gross synthetic way, the
Bible is a miracle book. If it

1435
02:19:31.959 --> 02:19:33.159
' s a miracle book, right, I haven' t heard it.

1436
02:19:33.719 --> 02:19:37.600
The Bible you believe that because of
the avatars you have suffered, the Bible

1437
02:19:37.719 --> 02:19:43.600
is a miracle book. Let us
have it the way we really have it

1438
02:19:43.600 --> 02:19:48.079
today. After so many centuries,
the word of God in our hands is

1439
02:19:48.479 --> 02:19:54.319
a story of salvation that God has
wanted for His people with an insert that

1440
02:19:54.440 --> 02:19:58.120
is to save His people from the
sin of death and lead us to eternal

1441
02:19:58.200 --> 02:20:01.000
life. Of course, that'
s what I mean. But the processes

1442
02:20:01.040 --> 02:20:05.559
that have occurred have passed. It
has been unique and exclusive, that is,

1443
02:20:07.559 --> 02:20:13.239
how it is formed from oral tradition
to the written form where we have

1444
02:20:13.360 --> 02:20:18.760
our Bibles today. This has been
an incredible journey and, above all,

1445
02:20:18.159 --> 02:20:26.159
of many circumstances, because the formation
of the old one has been tremendous,

1446
02:20:26.399 --> 02:20:33.799
how it has reached us the new
one, how it has been reworking and

1447
02:20:33.280 --> 02:20:37.719
writing all the concepts and purposes that
we have today in the Christian world.

1448
02:20:37.200 --> 02:20:43.479
And besides, it' s been
something supernatural. I believe in the supernatural,

1449
02:20:43.280 --> 02:20:48.719
because God is in the supernatural and
this has been the great miracle the

1450
02:20:48.760 --> 02:20:52.639
great miracle which is the word of
God. We have already done it Carmen

1451
02:20:52.639 --> 02:20:56.520
Christ, but now he has come, as the Epistle said to the Hebrews

1452
02:20:56.719 --> 02:21:00.479
God, having spoken in many ways, in many ways, on these last

1453
02:21:00.479 --> 02:21:03.239
day, he has spoken to us
in the son and son in the written

1454
02:21:03.360 --> 02:21:07.920
word we have today, and I
believe that this is preeminent. Not before

1455
02:21:09.040 --> 02:21:13.639
a society where he does not believe, because the issue of postmodernity and relativism

1456
02:21:13.760 --> 02:21:20.639
has come a little. God'
s Word serves constantly before a society that

1457
02:21:20.799 --> 02:21:26.799
needs God and many people ask me
well what you are the people who carry

1458
02:21:26.879 --> 02:21:33.360
the book. We don' t
just carry a book. We are living

1459
02:21:33.520 --> 02:21:35.360
our Christian life, as that book
says, which is the word of God,

1460
02:21:37.120 --> 02:21:41.719
and I believe that is preeminent in
the midst of us. Julio Antonio,

1461
02:21:41.840 --> 02:21:46.719
the second part of your book The
Bible from its beginnings, that there

1462
02:21:46.760 --> 02:21:54.760
is a lot of material written to
consult and enjoy in this work by Antonio

1463
02:21:54.879 --> 02:22:01.840
Carmona, Heredia until translations in Spanish
languages. The second part, by contrast,

1464
02:22:01.319 --> 02:22:07.920
is much longer. It occupies two
thirds of the book, from page

1465
02:22:07.040 --> 02:22:11.879
ninety- nine to three hundred and
thirty- one and focuses on the history

1466
02:22:11.000 --> 02:22:16.920
of the Bible in Spain and first
facing the arrival of Christianity, its texts,

1467
02:22:18.360 --> 02:22:24.399
also original to the Iberian peninsula and
also translations into the language of Cervantes.

1468
02:22:26.879 --> 02:22:31.840
It' s all very important.
How interesting is the story of the

1469
02:22:31.879 --> 02:22:37.040
Bible in Spain? You can advance
us a little bit to make a mouth

1470
02:22:37.159 --> 02:22:41.120
so you can have books later.
One of the first July chapters, I

1471
02:22:41.200 --> 02:22:46.920
did not say, were introductory chapters
and then reached the heart of the book,

1472
02:22:48.479 --> 02:22:52.719
the epicenter of the book. We
speak, for example, the text

1473
02:22:52.799 --> 02:22:56.159
of the old one, the text
of the new one. We' re

1474
02:22:56.319 --> 02:23:03.280
talking about the sexualite, about her
formation. We spoke practically the early Christians,

1475
02:23:03.559 --> 02:23:07.079
the patristic theme of how the theme
of the Bible is developed, and

1476
02:23:07.159 --> 02:23:11.079
how they understood the subject of literature. Then we came practically to the Middle

1477
02:23:11.120 --> 02:23:16.959
Ages and their romanced and subsequent Bibles. And then we conclude we enter the

1478
02:23:16.440 --> 02:23:22.120
part that affects us most in the
Christian evangelical world, which is the world

1479
02:23:22.399 --> 02:23:26.079
of how the Bible enters Spain.
This is his first moment and then the

1480
02:23:26.239 --> 02:23:33.879
epoch of the sixteenth century unfolds,
the humanism that enters Spain, from Juan

1481
02:23:33.280 --> 02:23:39.920
de Valdés, how all humanism and
humanist concepts are formed, the development of

1482
02:23:39.520 --> 02:23:48.319
Cardinal Cisnero, the problem of the
Bible, complutense polyglot, complutense, matritense,

1483
02:23:48.479 --> 02:23:54.799
well, all the development and then
we reach the great ones. The

1484
02:23:54.879 --> 02:24:01.520
great problem of reform that also enters
Spain. A lot of people say there

1485
02:24:01.559 --> 02:24:05.479
were no reforms. Yes, there
have been reforms, because there are Christians

1486
02:24:05.600 --> 02:24:09.159
and there has been the blood of
the martyrs who have persisted and among them,

1487
02:24:09.559 --> 02:24:13.079
for example, we can see the
whole problem in the convent of the

1488
02:24:15.159 --> 02:24:18.639
Saint Jeromes to Casidoro de Reinas,
to Citiano de Valera and others who leave

1489
02:24:18.680 --> 02:24:24.159
there and then exile. And there
they write the Bible, the Bible that

1490
02:24:24.159 --> 02:24:28.120
we have, that we use the
evangelical world, which is Queen Valera.

1491
02:24:28.559 --> 02:24:33.520
And then, then, I also
talk about Francisco, Encina, Pérez de

1492
02:24:33.559 --> 02:24:41.000
Pineda, thus giving a space to
some important issues that many people don'

1493
02:24:41.079 --> 02:24:46.959
t even know about. July,
but I have left a very interesting footer

1494
02:24:46.040 --> 02:24:52.760
system so that people can expand,
because, of course, to cover so

1495
02:24:52.360 --> 02:24:58.879
many centuries we would have to make
seven or eight books as minimums to write

1496
02:24:58.959 --> 02:25:03.799
the history of the Bible, but
I have left a lot of material so

1497
02:25:03.920 --> 02:25:07.040
that they can enjoy it and then
I continue. In this part I speak

1498
02:25:07.120 --> 02:25:09.719
a chapter of the Bible, of
the history of the Bible in America,

1499
02:25:11.840 --> 02:25:18.639
Christopher Columbus in the courtesy Pizarro,
important corporators who carried the word all that

1500
02:25:18.680 --> 02:25:22.680
movement And of course, in that
movement, here, in Spain, there

1501
02:25:22.680 --> 02:25:26.319
was a problem. The Bible was
forbidden to read in Spanish, it is

1502
02:25:26.319 --> 02:25:33.799
not Latin, but in Spanish it
was forbidden and the only one that had

1503
02:25:33.879 --> 02:25:37.840
circulated at that time was the queen, that of Casidoro de Reina and then

1504
02:25:37.840 --> 02:25:41.479
Cipiano de Valera. What it does
is correct some things and it goes on

1505
02:25:41.479 --> 02:25:45.719
And then, already, well,
I talk a little bit about biblical society,

1506
02:25:46.280 --> 02:25:48.920
the movement of biblical society back in
the 20th century and what had happened

1507
02:25:48.959 --> 02:25:56.639
in Francoism and the own translations that
they have made of the Bible, that

1508
02:25:56.719 --> 02:26:01.719
is, clearly, well, they
are very interesting, especially in the 20th

1509
02:26:01.719 --> 02:26:07.959
century. At the end of the
20th and 21st centuries, translations of the

1510
02:26:09.000 --> 02:26:16.159
Bible have multiplied. There are all
the most accurate discoloured versions, plus some

1511
02:26:16.239 --> 02:26:22.079
that connect to the oldest manuscripts as
far as possible. That' s why

1512
02:26:22.120 --> 02:26:26.000
I told you that the Bible Anthony
is I consider it the Miracle Book,

1513
02:26:28.000 --> 02:26:33.360
because with so many avatars and the
Bible was also preserved a lot. Many

1514
02:26:33.479 --> 02:26:41.479
manuscripts of the Bible were preserved in
the monasteries of friars, which preserved many

1515
02:26:41.559 --> 02:26:46.280
of the true documents. Of course, I have elaborated the topic of the

1516
02:26:48.040 --> 02:26:54.280
Middle Ages and there in Madrid,
that there is an immense exhibition of manuscripts

1517
02:26:54.280 --> 02:26:56.200
in the Escorial. I' ve
picked up a lot of things and from

1518
02:26:56.200 --> 02:27:03.600
other sides. Then of course,
the relationship of knowledge. He went on

1519
02:27:03.680 --> 02:27:09.760
his own to convents, monasteries and
then to universities. That is the educational

1520
02:27:09.360 --> 02:27:15.600
project that exists for the extension of
knowledge. And there it will imply the

1521
02:27:15.680 --> 02:27:20.079
word of God the Bible. Of
course, of course, the Bible was

1522
02:27:20.159 --> 02:27:26.319
not accessible to you, you say, of course only the clerical caste that

1523
02:27:26.440 --> 02:27:33.360
studied Latin in seminaries and churches,
was practiced in Latin Masses and Latin Readings,

1524
02:27:33.879 --> 02:27:37.200
but of course there was no access
to the people in the times.

1525
02:27:37.239 --> 02:27:41.479
That' s why success. Not
only Luther in Germany, his first translation

1526
02:27:41.559 --> 02:27:48.600
into German, into popular German,
but also in Spain, Queen’ s

1527
02:27:50.159 --> 02:27:56.520
cassiodor make the Bible accessible to the
people who were genoese. Neither the Catholic

1528
02:27:56.680 --> 02:28:03.920
vulgate nor any of these bibles were
of popular access. Good truth. There

1529
02:28:03.920 --> 02:28:09.040
has always been the problem since Emperor
Charles V came to stay in Yuste,

1530
02:28:09.200 --> 02:28:13.520
because he cannot deal with the whole
subject of the Luther. The problem that

1531
02:28:13.639 --> 02:28:18.719
arises is that Philip II, his
son, also does not let any Bible

1532
02:28:18.879 --> 02:28:22.920
enter that is in Castellano, and
less that of Protestants. Then not only

1533
02:28:24.079 --> 02:28:26.920
maquí, but in the new world, as burning bibles. And how there

1534
02:28:28.200 --> 02:28:35.600
is a whole contradiction to having Bibles
in Castellano. It is only later when

1535
02:28:35.680 --> 02:28:39.440
there is an encyclical of the Pope, much later, centuries later that it

1536
02:28:39.440 --> 02:28:41.040
gives to the avenue to be able
to translate. And in fact, in

1537
02:28:41.040 --> 02:28:46.280
the forties, when the Abbot begins, the famous nacar Bible Colunga, which

1538
02:28:46.799 --> 02:28:52.159
is a Bible that began to translate
the Catholic Church into Spanish, comes out.

1539
02:28:54.680 --> 02:29:01.079
It is necessary to recognize and beyond
the deutorocanonics that the many Colunga nacars

1540
02:29:01.159 --> 02:29:09.200
to the Jerusalem Bible. Several Catholic
versions, the Bulgata are good translations of

1541
02:29:09.239 --> 02:29:16.559
the Bible with the additions of those
of the deutorocanonians, evidently appearing also in

1542
02:29:16.760 --> 02:29:22.079
the Ajinta section. Right, the
Torocanonians. Yes, yes, it appears

1543
02:29:22.120 --> 02:29:26.799
in the sectional. The problem is
we have. It is very practical that

1544
02:29:26.879 --> 02:29:31.799
the problem of knowing Hebrew and Greek. A man makes a subcursor and does

1545
02:29:31.840 --> 02:29:35.840
it, but the problem is to
turn it into Spanish. The Spanish knowledge,

1546
02:29:35.959 --> 02:29:39.920
the twists, the modisms, the
form. There' s the question.

1547
02:29:41.000 --> 02:29:46.200
For example, we have translations into
Spanish, such as modern ones,

1548
02:29:46.280 --> 02:29:50.799
such as the Pilgrim' s Bible
or the new Spanish Bible or others that

1549
02:29:50.840 --> 02:29:54.920
are more up- to- date, for example, from the Episcopal Offer,

1550
02:29:56.479 --> 02:29:58.760
which are wonderful translations. But we
also have, for example, the

1551
02:29:58.799 --> 02:30:03.639
Biblical Society of the Word that has
come out new. I remember, for

1552
02:30:03.639 --> 02:30:07.079
example, from my friend Plutarconilla,
from the Kingdom of ninety- five,

1553
02:30:07.239 --> 02:30:11.440
who updated things to say, language
every twenty years is related, renewed and

1554
02:30:11.559 --> 02:30:16.360
translations are needed for the current world
to be added to that kind of language.

1555
02:30:18.200 --> 02:30:20.440
Yes, in fact, I am
part of the Board of Directors of

1556
02:30:20.559 --> 02:30:26.879
the Bible Society of Spain and well, we released the Bible of Queen Valera

1557
02:30:26.920 --> 02:30:33.120
two thousand twenty. That review by
Bible writers in depth, where terms that

1558
02:30:33.200 --> 02:30:39.920
have been translated still take great care
of the essences of grammar, because that

1559
02:30:39.040 --> 02:30:45.680
the Bibleists are very rigorous in that, which is a very very very,

1560
02:30:46.719 --> 02:30:50.440
very specialized plant on the subject,
but terms like Jehovah, who was a

1561
02:30:50.520 --> 02:30:56.360
man, who is the key name
or Jehovah popularly in the old versions,

1562
02:30:56.639 --> 02:31:03.840
the Lord says God then says that
on a popular level. It is more

1563
02:31:05.000 --> 02:31:09.559
because you realize that when the name
of Jehovah was mentioned, not many years

1564
02:31:09.559 --> 02:31:13.520
ago, people related us to Jehovah’ s Witnesses, telling them as if

1565
02:31:13.639 --> 02:31:18.120
we were all, because they did
a very popular job, they went through

1566
02:31:18.120 --> 02:31:22.559
the floors, through the houses and
although they were a minority that in their

1567
02:31:22.559 --> 02:31:28.760
time grew quite, it seemed they
were the owners. On the contrary,

1568
02:31:31.680 --> 02:31:35.600
they adulterated the Bible text with the
new tradition, the new translation into the

1569
02:31:37.520 --> 02:31:41.239
new world, because Jehovah’ s
Witnesses. They originally used Queen Valera until

1570
02:31:41.360 --> 02:31:46.600
they had their own, their own
translation. But, of course, Jehovah

1571
02:31:46.959 --> 02:31:50.559
’ s name, which is God’ s name, be it understood that

1572
02:31:50.639 --> 02:31:54.600
Jehovah already sees in Hebrew or the
consonants who put on vowels to give them

1573
02:31:54.600 --> 02:32:01.719
phonetics. But the matter, for
Jehovah, Jehovah, is as if he

1574
02:32:01.879 --> 02:32:07.520
had a bad press, the name
of Jeova. Popularly not, but now,

1575
02:32:07.719 --> 02:32:11.120
in the new version of the two
thousand and twenty of biblical society,

1576
02:32:11.840 --> 02:32:16.799
the term is God. The Lord
said God said, and such that it

1577
02:32:16.959 --> 02:32:24.639
is popularly understood. And other terms
and other grammatical adjustments, prayers much better

1578
02:32:24.719 --> 02:32:31.239
adapted to the grammatical mentality of contemporary, without losing the essences. And that

1579
02:32:31.319 --> 02:32:37.200
' s very important. Not well, I recently read a book by an

1580
02:32:37.479 --> 02:32:41.440
author named Thomas Rome. It is
called The Invention of God, a wonderful

1581
02:32:43.200 --> 02:32:48.760
book where it is studied thoroughly the
name of Iabé No and of course it

1582
02:32:48.799 --> 02:32:52.319
explains everything you have said about the
subject of Jehovah’ s vowels at the

1583
02:32:52.399 --> 02:32:58.159
end of a mistake by a man
who copied. Well, that' s

1584
02:32:58.319 --> 02:33:01.879
what happened. But the good thing
about all these things, Julio, is

1585
02:33:01.959 --> 02:33:05.159
that we now have knowledge and we
have to go back to the path.

1586
02:33:05.200 --> 02:33:11.280
Thus, correction is something precious,
sometimes it hurts, but it produces its

1587
02:33:11.399 --> 02:33:16.040
effect. No, and when we
begin to talk about the verb being in

1588
02:33:16.159 --> 02:33:20.559
Hebrew the famous Hayat, we understand
what it is already sees and how,

1589
02:33:20.639 --> 02:33:26.879
for example, in the text,
practically when it speaks of exodus that it

1590
02:33:26.920 --> 02:33:31.719
sees its people suffering that verb,
it must be the almighty God of Abranda.

1591
02:33:31.799 --> 02:33:35.760
Isa reveals in that flame of fire
in the middle of the sauce,

1592
02:33:35.000 --> 02:33:41.760
that that is very important. The
great I am the great I am clear

1593
02:33:41.879 --> 02:33:50.600
because the Jews to God the unprovoked. It will separate the Adona and the

1594
02:33:50.600 --> 02:33:54.959
Lord. Okay. There are the
names of God that appear in the scriptures

1595
02:33:54.959 --> 02:34:01.799
themselves, the Salai, the Adonai
and many names, but just like Jave

1596
02:34:01.000 --> 02:34:05.680
and Jehovah. Of course to them
it was the unprovoked because they, for

1597
02:34:05.760 --> 02:34:11.719
them, had the name of God
sacred and did not want to profane it

1598
02:34:11.719 --> 02:34:13.799
in any way. To take the
name of God in vain was at least

1599
02:34:15.559 --> 02:34:20.280
a somewhat legalistic view, but it
was their own fear, or not to

1600
02:34:20.360 --> 02:34:24.920
say, or God' s terror
that they had about these things. But

1601
02:34:24.719 --> 02:34:31.520
it is good that we can have
the Bible from its beginnings to translations with

1602
02:34:31.520 --> 02:34:37.799
tongues, also in more recent versions. And that' s where he takes

1603
02:34:37.799 --> 02:34:43.000
a tour. Our dear friend and
brother Antonio Carmona Heredia. I' ve

1604
02:34:43.120 --> 02:34:48.559
talked to you before about your previous
book too. But how good that we

1605
02:34:48.399 --> 02:34:54.559
can his previous work, freedom for
the forgotten that has to do with the

1606
02:34:54.959 --> 02:35:01.559
gypsy world, a vision, a
gypsy theological perspective, also very interesting that

1607
02:35:01.600 --> 02:35:05.920
there is some point more than you. You' d stand out from your

1608
02:35:07.079 --> 02:35:13.680
book for our listeners to say good
this book, let' s lay hands

1609
02:35:13.760 --> 02:35:15.959
on him to be groggy, it
seems true. Yeah, I think so.

1610
02:35:16.920 --> 02:35:20.280
A hundred and two things, from
the two books of mine, which

1611
02:35:20.280 --> 02:35:24.799
I think are a contribution because writing
for what is already written. I'

1612
02:35:24.840 --> 02:35:28.000
m sure there are a lot of
people better than me who write better than

1613
02:35:28.280 --> 02:35:33.399
me Julio, but honestly, for
example, the subject of freedom for the

1614
02:35:33.399 --> 02:35:37.479
forgotten. It is important that many
people know the Gypsy world, because they

1615
02:35:37.600 --> 02:35:41.920
do not know it if we live
here in Spain. We' re Spanish,

1616
02:35:41.120 --> 02:35:43.600
but they don' t know much
about our customs. In our form,

1617
02:35:45.159 --> 02:35:48.920
in this book, at least,
I try to make the history of

1618
02:35:48.000 --> 02:35:52.239
the Gypsies known in a brief chapter
and, above all, the weight of

1619
02:35:52.520 --> 02:35:58.200
what it brings in a society,
racism and xenophobia. The problem that brings

1620
02:35:58.319 --> 02:36:01.239
us closer, as Manuel says,
to elevating the other age, the one

1621
02:36:01.319 --> 02:36:05.920
in front of me suffering and I
believe that my people have suffered many,

1622
02:36:07.959 --> 02:36:15.799
many racisms and many impediments so that
they can reach many places and the other

1623
02:36:15.799 --> 02:36:18.479
book. Yes, I would like
to tell you that there is a thread

1624
02:36:18.600 --> 02:36:26.120
in the book of the Bible and
the drivers that you have to look deeply

1625
02:36:26.239 --> 02:36:33.040
at this text of this book,
because it has cost me a lot to

1626
02:36:33.159 --> 02:36:33.399
gather so much data, but it
is important with that one that there is

1627
02:36:33.399 --> 02:36:37.680
a thread. The word of God
remains forever and comes to pass from the

1628
02:36:37.760 --> 02:36:43.879
avatars with a statement that is salvation. It is a story of salvation,

1629
02:36:45.920 --> 02:36:50.280
and that Bible has cost a lot
of blood, a lot of sweat,

1630
02:36:50.760 --> 02:36:52.600
a lot of tears, and today
many people do not value it. And

1631
02:36:52.719 --> 02:36:58.879
it is important that we value the
word of God. I was recently preaching

1632
02:36:58.959 --> 02:37:01.399
at a place I was invited to
and a brother was saying to see.

1633
02:37:01.920 --> 02:37:05.520
Hey, you sent people up when
you were gonna talk about the word.

1634
02:37:05.920 --> 02:37:09.040
Of course, if God is present, if he had King Oes, there

1635
02:37:09.159 --> 02:37:13.360
was another a president of the state, you would not rise as he passed

1636
02:37:13.479 --> 02:37:16.959
by, for we will rise to
give glory to the Lord. What I

1637
02:37:16.040 --> 02:37:20.840
have tried with this book is to
give the glory to the Lord knowing it

1638
02:37:20.920 --> 02:37:24.639
is not the story and the avatars
that have happened so that we have that

1639
02:37:24.680 --> 02:37:31.239
precious book, which is the Bible, the word of God, because the

1640
02:37:31.360 --> 02:37:35.079
truth is that I believe that many
of our listeners are going to say we

1641
02:37:35.079 --> 02:37:39.879
want to take advantage of this book, get it from the platform of amazon.

1642
02:37:39.239 --> 02:37:45.600
Almost everything can be achieved there.
And if you forgive July this book,

1643
02:37:45.799 --> 02:37:48.239
you can do it with the last
one that has been published alone to

1644
02:37:48.639 --> 02:37:52.360
Fide, if you can do it
on the website is the FIDE editorial cefes

1645
02:37:52.360 --> 02:37:54.719
Solafide. Yes, sir, it' s very intense. Can you ask

1646
02:37:54.760 --> 02:38:01.399
that it is in order to be
able to ask perfect only fi of the

1647
02:38:01.399 --> 02:38:07.079
publisher only fide perfect, perfect,
even more direct and the publisher of angelican

1648
02:38:07.079 --> 02:38:07.799
is Yes? Yeah? Yeah?
Yeah? That' s great, that

1649
02:38:07.799 --> 02:38:13.559
' s great? Well, Antonio, I really appreciate your appearance. I

1650
02:38:13.639 --> 02:38:20.239
congratulate you on these two books,
which are very interesting contributions, One from

1651
02:38:20.319 --> 02:38:28.959
the theological perspective, also gypsy and
also from society regarding that important minority in

1652
02:38:30.159 --> 02:38:35.959
the Gypsy world. But then also
this book of the Bible, this from

1653
02:38:35.079 --> 02:38:41.719
its origins to the most recent translations, which we are always interested in the

1654
02:38:41.719 --> 02:38:46.319
Bible. We are the people of
the book. The Bible is the master

1655
02:38:46.479 --> 02:38:50.680
' s book, the master'
s book of life. He has stories,

1656
02:38:52.799 --> 02:38:58.799
has stories, has poetry, has
biographical records about the person of Jesus

1657
02:39:00.319 --> 02:39:05.440
has epistolary letters from the apostles,
especially from the apostle Paul. And then

1658
02:39:05.600 --> 02:39:13.520
he has books also the biblical apocalyptic, such as the book of Daniel,

1659
02:39:13.799 --> 02:39:22.399
the book of Revelation, very important
that have a connection after seven hundred years

1660
02:39:22.479 --> 02:39:30.319
later history. They have a prophetic
connection in very important parts that authenticate the

1661
02:39:30.399 --> 02:39:35.680
prophetic message of the apostles. Anyway, it' s for when you find

1662
02:39:35.799 --> 02:39:41.639
out that the Bible is God'
s book and that it' s like

1663
02:39:41.239 --> 02:39:45.280
discovering the, say, the secret
of life. The great secrets of life

1664
02:39:45.360 --> 02:39:50.840
are revealed in the Bible. So, well, then, let' s

1665
02:39:50.840 --> 02:39:56.040
get rid of this book of our
friend and dear brother Antonio Carmona. Heredia.

1666
02:39:56.479 --> 02:40:05.079
The Bible from its origins to the
most recent translations. Antonio, my

1667
02:40:05.120 --> 02:40:09.479
dear friend, I send you a
very affectionate hug. Thank you so much

1668
02:40:09.600 --> 02:40:13.399
for inviting me to July and the
second time. I thank you so much

1669
02:40:13.559 --> 02:40:18.319
for being able to talk about my
books and for being able to collaborate with

1670
02:40:18.360 --> 02:40:20.479
you, which has been a pleasure
and an honor to be here on your

1671
02:40:20.479 --> 02:40:22.879
show. Of course, for me, I' ll send you a hug

1672
02:40:22.879 --> 02:40:46.799
forever. Until always I miss the
train of life, an exciting journey along

1673
02:40:46.920 --> 02:41:07.280
the routes of the heart, an
unforgettable trip at the pace of trem the

1674
02:41:07.879 --> 02:41:13.440
evangelical churches a place of peace and
friendship. You can freely attend the nearest

1675
02:41:13.479 --> 02:41:18.239
evangelical church in your neighborhood or your
population. You' ll be very welcome.