Good morning, friends and friends, I am Julio Pérez and this is the
train of life, a radio adventure along the routes of the heart. I
want to invite you to travel with me and dream together in a better world,
a different world where men and women of good will can live in peace
and freedom. The train of life is a magaxine of good news and hope.
This is a radio time specially designed for people like you and like so
many truth seekers, of the only truth that can make us authentic free come
I invite you to travel with us on the safest train of all, which
will definitely take you to safe harbour. This is the train of life.
Well, very good morning, Spain, bon day, friends, from this
corner of the Iberian solar, of this mixture of cultures as fabulous as is
our dear Spain. From here, Julio Pérez, a communicator who has been
an impenitent traveller for many years, speaks to them. This morning we travel
together on the train of life Let' s go, ladies, yes,
gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, also because if there are there, they are
not in the cortijos, but in life, in everyday life, because here
we are already. The train has begun its departure. They know that when
we are in the station and we travel in bird and I travel with a
certain frequency in the bird usually more of Barcelona, Madrid and other points of
the Spanish geography, but when the train starts is almost imperceptible, you do
not realize and we are already going, And well, until it is already
taking sprint and you already realize, because the tunnels that are already before coming
out in the light of the day. But so is this traveling train and
it is perceptible, because we travel. It is like life itself is a
living parable. Life is a parable Look when you' re going in to
me, I really like the train. I remember those trains of old,
that I remember some long journey that I made as one of my older brothers
who already passed away, my brother Ginés. And we were going, because
it was a long trip. We were going to Andalusia, the Sevillian,
it looked like a train from those of the American West and then, well,
we were going on our feet. Only in a few moments people were
getting off. We could find the seat and wooden seats. Yeah, yeah,
farwest style, but well, this has changed a lot, of course,
no. And so, and when you go by train you enjoy the
company, sometimes pleasant or sometimes not so pleasant, but of people who are
around and you have a spontaneous conversation, you have a coffee, you read
a book, you are looking at the landscape, you get up, you
go a little to the bar, you come back, etcetera, etcetera.
You have and that you enjoy the trip. That' s life. You
have to enjoy the journey of life and don' t forget or live with
anxiety and anxiety and it seems that you can' t enjoy your family,
your friends, the family of faith also that you are an eternal family of
care. Eh, in addition, and also enjoy the good moments of life,
to like them and to have that ability to appreciate those moments, the
beauties of life, sometimes insignificant beauties and some not so insignificant, but very
attractive that life has, that has that miscellanea of colors that there is on
the horizon truth as a flowery field. And this morning, because we have
something very special, look we wanted to dedicate at least I thought I have
a very great affection for the gypsy people, since I have a knowledge,
especially Christian. I remember that shortly after I met Jesus in my youth and
discovered the church in my own neighborhood, in the Raval of Barcelona, I
discovered a pastor gypsy church such as Alfredo. I remember many years ago a
man, a man of faith, a man such and such, and I
was not taught in that line, but every time I went there, to
that place, on the street count the assault, for I about the Ramblas
of Barcelona and I went sometimes and caught my attention, his spirit, his
joy, his fervor and I was always blessed. Then I began to establish
contacts, as we have known many in their time, the snoring, the
tucho, the pelón that we had with us in our churches, all of
them, especially the snoring and the tucho a long time, many times Pichico,
a great friend, a friend of the soul. And then, for
so many others also Marvel Mudez in his time was more sporadic, but also
and he was an excellent preacher. And then, then, so many more,
for, evidently, the sysqueet and endless of people to the pelon that
we also had, to forgiveness, the pelon I have already told the Pelele
and also brother Pelele, who also had a close relationship with him, and
to so many others I no longer remember. Many names do not sell Juan
Ramón and others I no longer tell brothers like Sicus Carboney and endlessly there has
been a closeness and one and one affection. And not only a fondness,
but a great respect for Gypsy culture and rediscovering the values of Gypsy culture.
And, of course and above all, in the evangelic Christian world, the
gypsies have massively emigrated to the evangelical faith because it goes more with them,
it is more expressive, more spontaneous, more direct, without intermediaries, without
mysteries, no and without all that religious fetishism that exists in other cases.
And then, I discovered a lot of good things about them and of course
there I remember the brother yen who left with the lord or just with the
pandemic. He got married and couldn' t get over it. Just a
month before I was with him in Madrid in a meeting and I was happy
with a barbarity. We embraced each other very dearly, but so many brothers
and sisters and would remember this way on the march and how not our dear
guests this morning José Carmona, a man who is a charm of person,
for his affection, his empathy and, besides, his good doing, because
he is a man who you will already see, his book that we are
going to talk about today, that you have to know him, of Punjaba
Canarias, the whole history of the Gypsy people in general and then the history
in Spain and the Canary Islands as well. But you have to read this
book. This book is an essential document to learn about gypsy culture. Then
we also have José Carmona, a doctor of psychology, this morning. There
' s nothing to see. You are of course the figures of Gitana,
the gypsy, have been arantemized many times, because there is a social stereotype,
but not the gypsies have anything to do with stories that say good is
that crime and crime is in the world of payo and in the gypsy world
and in the Latin American world and in the world everywhere. The fact is
that the living conditions must be analyzed by this group, which has been very
marginalized over many years and also in Spain until now, because there are voices
that have been talking and have been putting the thing up to category of recognition,
of social importance, a social minority signified, and that, well,
they are changing many things, but still have to change and put to make
a bet a day. Well, José Carmona is an expert. He is
a professor at the University of La Laguna. They have several needs is,
a name, an intellectual like the cup of a pyro. He has also
written Christian books such as La Cruz, a great book that we will also
talk about this and well, we will also enjoy these Gypsy intellectuals that we
have with us today, which are some of so many. There are many
in Spain professionals, some are politicians who militate in some parties and are also
in citizens in the Popular Party, some in some other party. Then we
also have Antonio Carmona, writer, great theologian wherever they are. He holds
a degree in theology and also a doctorate in divinities from several Spanish and American
universities in the United States. Author of the two very interesting books as well.
Freedom for the forgotten is one of his previous books. But today we
' ll talk about a book you' ve just published to me. It
' s called The Bible. He makes a memorandum and synthesis of the history
of the Bible, which is a book for those who know nothing and to
make a bet to the day on how the Bible has come to us.
Read Antonio Carmona' s book. It' s magnificent. It' s
great, well, let' s talk to him. It is a pleasure
and an honor to have you on the train of life. And of course
not, because my admired and dear Séfora Vargas, because she is a friendly
fighting woman, with a character, but the character, that good character that
has to be determined, resolutional, determined. And so a worker is speaking
on the occasion of International Working Women' s Day, for she who has
written this also this very important book about getting out of freedom, the cry
of freedom. I have here the title of the book that I like,
The Cry of Freedom. It' s the book. It is a book
on the emancipation of women, of gypsy women, that a culture, because
in some archaic aspects. As far as women are concerned as well and in
other respects, but as she has been able to give some tones, emancipators
and also women in general, then we will be talking to her, but
also her book, which also speaks of a story of the Gypsy people for
Damis dumis, who understand, for initiates, for people who have to know
basically, this book is impressive. I think it is a book with many
historical references, very well documented and then focused on stories that reach your soul.
You get to very concrete stories of the Gypsy people during the soa Nazi
genocide, that the gypsies were exterminated massively along with the Jews, thousands of
gypsies were killed and also by the Nazi genocide, as well as homosexuals and
people who were discarded for the Nazis of humanity. Well, then, we
have these three champions because they are truly people with a combative, fighting spirit.
They have a spirit when you talk to them, as long as you
get it. José Carmona, doctor of psychology. Antonio Carmona, also a
doctor of theology and writer. Both writers and also gone rod is that she
is a lawyer and is also a writer and lecturer. This conference these days
in many forums and tomorrow, even on the occasion of International Women' s
Day, will be on several programs. So much is on Spanish television radio
programs, the Burgués ester program. It' s also going to be at
night, Burguese Time, et cetera, et cetera. It is with us
that we also make a note of the issue of women, also with it
of International Women' s Day. Well, then, all this and more
stuff, good music, the music we' re going to hear. We
will start with a music my friend Alex, who is in the sound control,
who watch it sing by Roberto Hernández and Juan Ramón, Juan Ramón de
Rocío, and then it is a composition made by Roberto Hernández. The grace
of God. Bellisim This song I love. Both of you. They both
sing it, both of them. Then we will have asiks Carboney also one
of his compositions to the system how we will not listen this morning also that
they are very dear and well known voices among us and I invite you to
travel with me this morning on the train of life. Come on. You
can send your message through our Facebook. Through our Facebook, entering between your
double- pointed see the train of life. Point is the train of life.
Point is Remember that in this way you collaborate with us. Tell us
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God' s grace is like the wind and it reaches you in a moment
embraces you, take the hand of feeling forgive something happens in you. The
grace of God that they brown the hair a token of his love is like
that du deserved. You know I arrested him, but we didn' t
explain it. The grace of God does not come sora, accompanying the hours
the compassion of per And if it does not wander the memory and remember your
story, will know that God grace led you to God surrenders that which gag
of God. He said what came on the way open to eternity, not
meringo, but vera God. The grace of God is like the wind.
It hits you in a moment, hugs your heart and comes to you they
take you off the manna, you feel forgiven and something happens. God'
s grace is his jute. I want to caress the pebo a token of
his love, like that domimbecio. You know what has been received, but
they do not explain it, but God' s grace does not come alone,
it accompanies my forgiveness at all times and if you do not miss the
memory and you remember your story, you will know that God to God,
Grace, the day brings what is not and what grace of God said does
not come heart, whether it comes from God, the way opened to the
Esther by the seafaring see God give gift to burn radia of God said,
the delected Heart, grace of God, the way opened to the Eternity because
I deserve mere Godheads these things have been given to us from his eternal,
power and deity. Pure Grace. Pray you don' t come hour his
promise, until he comes, until today closer than ever. We invite you
to the second edition of this Interdenominational Congress aimed at the whole body of Christ
in Spain and Europe, which will take place from 26 to 28 April in
the Fira de Reus, Tarragona. They will be with us, international speakers,
Mariano sen Egual, Benjamin Núñez and Marcos brunet To want wamado bu plotted
for more information, You can enter our www ww website until he comes.
It is either to write to the six, one, six, eight,
eight, one, five, seven, one, six hundred, sixteen,
eight hundred and eighty- one, five hundred and seventy- one and to
consult prices and registration modalities. Don' t miss the opportunity to participate in
this great call until he comes. Until he comes or that prunes your home
before your glory and lower your plowing well and every eye will see if you
want to visit our website the wwwww. The train of life. The train
of life, Post or, ladies and gentlemen, are we traveling on the
train of life? Here, in the master car, where we always welcome
good friends. You know you say that journalists are accountants of things. Yes,
it' s true, sometimes good things and sometimes not so good,
sometimes true things and other uncertain things in the worst cases. But we have
to talk about a town that is between a millennial flight, such as the
gypsy people, and we are going to talk to one of them, a
test gypsy, plus a man who is an intellectual, a man with a
great academic background and a doctor in theology, forgiveness in psychology. In theology
we will later have Antonio Carmona, but we have José Carmona, the doctor
in psychology and also writer of several books, one of them very interesting,
from punjat to the Canary Islands, the history of the Gypsy people and goes
through many historical challenges, including Spain and also the Canary Islands, also where
he currently resides. And well, they' re going to realize in their
tone, in their knowledge of the subject, because the importance, the relevance
of gypsy history and gypsy culture and we' re going to talk to him
and I want to welcome José Carmona. Good morning, Jose, good morning.
Greeting you for July and in principle, I can thank you for the
opportunity and congratulations for those thirty years being in the air, making a difference
and thanking you for the opportunity you give me as well as my colleagues Antonio
Carmona and went on a journey to make that costly work visible that we are
doing. People who are of Roma ethnicity, but who, besides sharing that
ethnic nuance, I think we have a superior identity, because it is more
transcendent and is that we are evangelical Christians redeemed by the work of Jesus Christ
in the Court of Calvary. And I believe that if the three of us
are in this program, we thank you mainly that it has been moved by
God, but it is thanks to the unconditional work that the evangelical people have
done, for the inclusion of the Gypsy people, because if it had not
been for the Gospel of Jesus Christ, without doubting either Séphora, Antonio or
a servant, we would be here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, honorable to go about this, because I think that' s
true, that we have to give glory to our good God, because that
' s where our there originates makes sense, our history of each one in
particular. Then we can see identities of this or that background. But Jesus
Christ gives us identity and also makes us love life in its best version.
Yes, yes, well, hear about topics talk to us a little bit
about your formation, your trajectory, your current performance, so that our listeners
remember those who did not hear you before and those who make a reminder tell
us about you from your family. A little good, because I belong to
that generation of gypsies that my family know about a hundred years that we no
longer live in the Peninsulary, our most remote origins. According to research carried
out by my cousins, We come, therefore, all of what is the
part of the Granadina alpujarra, we descend to the archada Malagueña and from there
my great- grandmothers, certainly that grandmothers, also of Antonio de Arbona,
go to Amelidia and our family has always been, therefore, a saleswoman of
very disturbing clothes. We arrived in Canaria. In the case of my generation,
we were born in Argentina and there the Evangelical Church Philadelphia is the one
who owes much and to those pioneers the Gospel begins in the year seventy-
six, which I was only one and a half years old, and then
in the year eighty- three, already nine years old, because we are
in it comes to us. I went to second grade. I practically learn
to read with the Bible and when I am nineteen years old, I am
already a pastor and we start here in the Canary Islands. Thanks also to
among them, Antonio de Argona, who is a cousin of mine and is
older than me a couple of years, and to an uncle we both shared,
who today is in the presence of Mr Juan Maldonado, and other friendly
pastors. We started studying at Saving. The fact is that I really learn
to write thanks to the work that he knows about the Center for Biblical Research
of Canaria, with José Manuel Díaz Yane and very linked to Barcelona, because
there was Pedro Pusperl, Bernardo Sánchez, that magnificent generation that God has given
us. And thanks to them and because I learn to write. The point
is, I graduated in two years high school social work. It has already
been a very accelerated race, because it has been the grace of God.
I can say that both Séfora and Antonio a server. While it is true
that there are many inclusion programmes for the people of Mexico, none of the
three of us have been part of those programmes. We are the fruit of
the effort of our family and the support of the Christian people, who have
believed in the transformation of people and who know that education is the most powerful
weapon that can transform society. And for one thing, we are recognized as
the people of the book. The Christian people are the people of the book,
and it is that all revolve around us of Jesus Christ and the legacy
of Christ, the message of Christ. While it is true that we have
transcendent mystical experiences, that the Holy Spirit is real, but our faith is
based on a historical fact, by a book that has two thousand years of
survival with the greatest persecutions and that in none of the attempts have been able
to stop it. And that has come to us and transformed us and for
us it is a pride. Well said, it is an injection of self
- esteem to know that we are the result of those principles, of the
principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. What a beautiful synthesis of your history
and your family we celebrate. Well, there' s this last book.
We will talk about the other also that is interesting, the Cross, but
the one from Punjab to Punhat to the Canary Islands, the history of the
Gypsy people, that of Arbert Box, which can be found in Amazon.
I imagine not yes, the book right now we were modifying, because the
idea of this book I am not a historian. My training is social work
and I am in social sciences, in social sciences, in the elaboration of
the thesis, in my cocon as a scientist, who is really a social
researcher, is what I do. I have a personal self- discovery with
my gypsy identity, but I discover that in the Canary Islands neither the majority
society knows the history of the gypsy people. And the saddest thing is that
the gypsy people know the most important elements of their leader Meri their symbol,
that is, the history of the gypsy people is unknown not only to the
majority society, but also to the gican people. So, in this elaboration
of thesis and thanks to the lord the opportunities that I have to work as
a researcher, cultural promoter and working for the inclusion of the Gypsy people,
because of all the cuts that have been made, the end- of-
grade works, scientific publications, thesis works, because then I have the initiative,
with the support of the institutions with which I work at the moment,
with the Cabildo de Tenerife, thanks to the Federation of Rome BAX, to
make a historical compilation, which is not the most exhautive research, if it
has a clearly scientific character, because what we want to demonstrate is that the
Gypsy people, a canarian, is here in force since the seventeenth century,
since the beginning of the twentieth century, is centered and sadly the Gypsies that
we are in shared Canary Islands are lucky with the rest of the Canaries,
that we are ultra peripheral and in the great national research, like the national
housing survey. We didn' t show up the relational health surveys by the
gypsies. Nor do the state plans come then, because the Gypsy people are
a people who are settled in the Canary Islands and are part of that history,
because it was opportune to take them out In principle it has been free.
Which happens that in order to be able to hang it and give it
matidor diffusion in some places, they are putting it in sales. We recommend
that you do not pay, because we have all the channels so that you
can download it in the digital version for free. One of the very important
things because for me this book is important, because, in addition to promoting
gypsy culture is the key, it has been the door to entering the social
sphere and now we are also working on a second research with brothers and sisters,
friends and friends are doing end- of- grade work, since I
am linked to Benia Docenti and to teaching in the degree of social work of
the University of La Laguna, because the gypsy Canarian people are culturally evangelical.
So, while here the work of the air of evangelical religious teaching hardly small
to schools, we are having opportunity, through the history of the Gypsy people,
from that anthropological and cultural element, to share as the Gypsy people is
an evangelical people and that really the work of inclusion of the Gypsy people unselfishly
without expecting anything. In return, giving their lives with blood and sweat and
tear, to the pastors and evangelical pastors, because all the programs, behind
all the state programs that there are municipal, autonomous, we are already talking
about public suspensions, people who work for the gypsies, but also home and
live thanks to that work. But if there are figures to be highlighted are
pastors, those factors, those families who have gone to English, places to
preach open church, they have acted as social mediators, they have acted as
psychologists, they are even acting as lawyers, as lawyers. I don'
t know the factors. If I have to value a profession here on Earth,
in pastoral function, because the factors are the only ones working twenty-
four, seven, three hundred, sixty- five days. So that job
we' re in, we want people to know it. That' s
good. How interesting the origins you tell us about the implantation in the Canary
Islands itself, where you reside of the Roma minority. But in your book
begins to the origins of the Roma Roma Gypsy people and the Roma Roma Gypsy
people. Also then in the Iberian Peninsula, make us a breviary of this
origin. I explain. Let' s see that the prehistory of the Gypsy
people goes back to Punjab. It' s an area in India Pakistan.
It' s prehistory, that is, data. I understand that there are
people who start from hypothesis theories, but for me, what does not have
an empirical scientific value, I cannot contrast it by my scientific character. Then
the prehistory of the gypsy people is India that formerly India would come from elsewhere.
We don' t know that and there' s no scientific evidence that
we can assert it. We would have to go into faith, but in
scientific empirical matters it is India in its migration process. By the year a
thousand begins this migration process, one thousand and four hundred and twenty- five.
One thousand and four hundred and twenty- five arrive in the Iberian Peninsula
and they begin there. The one thousand four hundred and ninety- two fought
a series with the totalitarianism of Catholic kings. Jews are expelled, Muslims and
gypsies are expelled. They do not agree to expel him because the gypsies,
for one place, on the one hand, are the belt containing the Muslim
invasion. They have also been the hand of works of the mines and were
also the rowers of the Jalera. Then, from there, the Gypsy people
fought against cloak and sword to maintain their identity and run the same fate as
the evangelicals, the Casaña brothers, the Cyprian monks of Valera, almost of
Reina. To say, we evangelicals and gypsies have run the same fate in
the Iberian Peninsula. Total Catholic monarchic vitarism exterminates all the different if successively,
for the Gypsy people in the 20th century, when there begins to be a
little hope, that is where. That is where my family, who go
to my light come to the Canary Islands, appears, and here, in
Canaria, thanks to the interculturality of the Canary Islands Archipelago and also because in
the year from the years at the end of the seventies, the Gypsy people
embrace the Protestant faith. In this way the book so ends, we show
how there are almost forty people who have overcome that which, compared to the
rest of the majority society, is insignificant. But considering that school failure in
Spain, those who are gypsies and gypsies researchers estimate it waiting. Ninety percent
canary, we have one, we have girls who are lawyers, psychologist,
social workers, we have boys who are nurses, Antonio who is a theologian,
we have philosophers. And the most interesting thing is that more than eighty
- five percent of them your parents are evangelical factors and that they share the
Christian faith, because truly the transformation of those gypsies and gypsies who have overcome
all the barriers of stereotypes, all the barriers of anti- Gypsy. The
main driving force in most cases has to do with the principles of the Gospel
of Jesus Christ, so I am more than convinced that if there is a
philosophical element, no longer only spiritual, but theoretical philosophical, that can bring
equality, that can bring interculturality, capacity for dialogue, they are the principles
of Protestant reform, without taking away that there is any other extremist. Unfortunately,
in all human groups there is. But I do believe and I am
convinced that the Christian faith has all the elements to create an inclusive world.
No doubt, without a doubt, you make a magnificent challenge, s synthesis
to situate us. Then, from the origins that we see of the Gypsy
people there in India, also the Roma Roma people in the Iberian Peninsula And
then, evidently, the periods of persecution that have been very recurrent, because
it is a characteristically persecuted people, very similar to the Jews. Yeah,
we share, keep in mind that we' ve been sharing since a thousand
four hundred and ninety- two. We begin with more than 250 pragmatics.
Of course, it has also been forged by something that is the popular imagination.
The figure of the gypsy has not only been persecuted by systemic lexs,
but also the worst that we are currently fighting with them with the popular imaginary,
bearing in mind that until not long ago and in fact, it is
still collected as one of the sections is that the gigitano is synonymous with a
trapper. Yeah, that image We' re fighting with that footage. On
the one hand, the Gypsy people. All this has served to be an
hermetic, indogamic people and, on the other hand, the popular imaginary,
because it finds the evidence that they need to keep commenting on it. For
me, what' s the saddest thing. The saddest thing is that the
gypsy people as a people are a people who, from the sixties onwards,
embrace Protestantism, Protestant reform, a very significant amount in the national territory.
Since the gypsy churches exceed a thousand churches, they are in a position to
be warmed up, i e they are in a position where they are rejected
and self- rejected, i e they marginalize and self- marginate. Thus,
considering this, the inclusion of the Roma people not only key slave from
a social political perspective, but also is very important from a missionary perspective,
bearing in mind that Spain is part of the great missionary investigations of the 70th
window of the peoples less reached today by the Gospel of Jesus, when we
have a thousand churches in which neither the majority society has access nor those churches
are in a position to be inclusive, is the sad reality with which we
are living. So, I dream that one day there will be that opening
from both inside and outside, that is, that there is a change in
the system, because if those churches and the inclusion of the Gypsy people is
impossible. It would mean that a thousand churches would be incorporated to preach the
gospel in Spain sun all the potential involves more than a thousand churches. It
says it' s a fight. The inclusion of the gypsy people not only
has a political, socio- economic and cultural scope, and what is also
something that we evangelicals have to take very seriously, because I have no doubt
that the gypsy people are one of the peoples with the greatest potential for the
evangelization of Europe. In November of the two thousand twenty- two I was
in Prague at a congress that is held by the nations, by the European
Union, where they had digitized thirty- seven, of thirty- seven localities,
but specifically twenty- eight of Europe and the most significant that more than
seventy percent were evangelicals. Yes, if that public reflection and that I do,
I can subscribe it with all the affection and love that I personally feel
towards the Gypsy people and my friends of the soul. No, and I
think a lot of us think the same way. But the self- inclusion,
the self- inclusion of the one of whether the existing gypsy communities very
immense of Philadelphia, but other branches also of networks of gypsy churches that are
not Philadelphia, that exist also in Spain, have that sensitivity, that ability,
of that grace, of inclusiveness, of being also heterogeneous churches. And
this is a bomb. It' s a bomb to reach everyone, all
kinds of people. True, it is given to a small extent. But
suddenly, with the missionary vision of reaching the world, the surrounding world.
In the churches that are of Gnia gypsy they are projected in all directions.
This is true that you have thrown a bomb there, a proposal that is
interesting and it is true that I am an ecclesiologist also because I am responsible
for a network of churches, but church planter, saw them the pros and
cons, both sociological ecclesiological that are given in favor and against the planting of
churches. This is one of them. Yes, sir, therefore, we
must take good note to go much further. But speaking in the book,
you talk to us in your book about the gypsy cante origin of flamenco that
I imagined had a lot to do with it. Of course, another of
the stigmatizations that we are suffering from the Gypsy people has to do with singing,
because I understand for myself the concept of redemption in the light of the
Bible. I am a frustrated theologian, because I have never been able to
study all the triology that I like, although the study is a graduate,
I am a graduate in theology by the Seisving, but really my social work
and the concept of redemption is that, after all, I am a panto
ecnotis the mateo twenty- eight, eighteen, all ethnicities. We must be
disciples of Jesus Christ the arts. The arts must be redeemed to give glory,
for that is the purpose that Jesus Christ be all in all, all
in him for his glory. So, if we see how the gypsy people
express their culture, there are pictures that reveal it since the thousand six hundred
works of art, the gypsy singing, the dance, the cultural expression.
There is a mix in Baja Andalucía and we cannot say that flamenco is its
own gypsy, but that main contribution is from the gypsy. What happens is
that the saddest thing or a fellow Christian who is doing a very important job
in prisons in Spain, called José Suárez el Torombo. We have shared a
lot and considering that Seville, for example, has more than 300 places where
flamenco is put. Sadly the artists who have taken flamenco to become patriotic mons
of humanity, as we could speak of the families of the Revuelo, of
the Raimundo, of the whole family of Reimundo, to the greatest remedy Amalia.
Well, we' re talking about the pop of the flamenco top.
They are, unfortunately, in a stigmatized neighborhood. The neighborhood is not the
problem or its people. The problem is anti- Gypsy. And how is
it possible for the pastor to have three hundred places where flamenco is exposed and
that those people who are flamenco since birth are not occupying the best places.
If we look right now at all the flamenco programs, where there is teaching
of flamenco, where flamenco is taught, because flamenco is an eibe of Spain,
that is to say, in the interior, the interior product group is
surpassing 7%. And how is it possible that those gypsies who have that
capacity to generate that culture, that service that branded Spain, are happening in
those cities. If you' re going to hurt yourself, you can find
the best guitarists who aren' t working and don' t have a decent
life. You can find the singers who have given all their lives on board
and haven' t even been working all their lives and don' t even
qualify for a decent retirement. That' s what strikes me. It doesn
' t catch my eye if anyone' s gypsy singing space doesn' t
kick. What strikes me is that if the gypsy has that capacity and that
ability to do culture, it is from the redemption of that culture that they
can have a dignified life. Working in a theatre, giving dance teachers to
be the ones selling gypsy clothes, i e flamenco or a culture. How
can we have a people who are going through need, who live marginality,
when culturally it has an ability to produce economy that generates seven percent of a
country. I' m not here. I' m not so interested in
musical nuance. I' m interested in the transformational nuance. You imagine,
pastor, if that gypsy and that gypsy were the owners of the galleries,
where they put on the faralage costumes, all the cosmetics and the gypsy aesthetics,
the food that is around, the academies that are around, the musical
productions, the theaters, the villages that in ninety percent spread the Gospel of
Jesus Christ. We would be the show button that the Gospel transforms. That
' s right, that' s right, I' m good. There
are many there are many variables of what you' re saying interesting that we
might even have just one program about this. But, for example, good
flamenco singing in the voice of gypsy. Well Camarón, for example, a
pro gypsy who raised flamenco to the highest level that, by the way,
in the latter part of his life, had an encounter with the lord also
already at the critical moment of his life that was already so sick, thank
God. But it means it' s evidence and there' s so many
there. That' s a list. I am using memory, but good
is also an interesting note in the book about the gypsy cante origin of flamenco.
But the gypsy people in the Spanish Civil War and then the gypsy people
and Francoism, for a part of the civil war and then Francoism. These
two stages are complicated stages. True, if they are complicated stages and not
well known. I' m going to tell you an example that I didn
' t pick up in the book because I told myself. A later uncle
of mine, a good aunt of mine, my great aunt, to her
son at the age of sixteen. My grandfather' s first- born uncle
passes the red truck called red, they wear that. What happens that in
the village, the people were people and re- Franquist and to her the
captain of the village that had there, the captain calls her and takes her
to the barracks, when my aunt wanted to justify them and take her life
with the rest of the reds in the village, My aunt told the captain
what she called me and you told her it' s called loneliness, no,
she didn' t tell her. No, no, what you call
me when I' m not present, then he said well, no,
don' t tell me and in the end he presses it so hard that
it ends up telling him. The gypsy says, because that' s what
we are. We' re gypsies, we' re not red, we
' re not Francoists. In the end, he showed her that she had
her hair cut to give a lesson and thus saves her life. But that
is the reality that the history of the Gypsy people is reflected in the civil
war. The Gypsy and Gypsy people. The Gypsy people, unfortunately, do
not have a political apparatus. Not removing that yes, I show you in
evidence that there have been gypsies who have been from the right, others,
who have been from the left, others who, that is, there have
been different gypsies, characters who have been able to build a political apparatus,
with which they were linked to certain positions, but in general, it was
not the position of the gypsy people, because the gypsy people, so many
years of repression, what they are least interested in between quotation marks, I
say, was the conflict of the cloths. That is why it is very
important to rescue him, because, on the other hand, the Gypsy people
need to start building a different political apparatus positively right now. It is interesting
all the reflections we are gnawing at, of course because there are details developed
about the Gypsy people and Francoism. During Francoism, how it was treated,
how it was ignored, and also the Gypsy people during the Spanish Civil War
all the avatars it meant for all the citizens. But also, evidently,
you have told that anecdote that is very descriptive. You speak also of gypsy.
To the ghetto what do you mean by that? Oh. That'
s one of the chapters where it' s the most open to me,
because I' ve all been a self- discovery. Anyone who today takes
any highway of the big cities and you can see the mine, the three
thousand houses, the thousand houses, the palm for midi in Malaga and at
first sight we say the gypsies, growing that these constructions have been created by
the gypsies and that this is the habitat the guitars like to have. However,
when we dig a little bit in history, we discover that the gypsy
shops so called as are the Jewish Quarters, because they have been Jewish Quarters
and that nowadays Jewish Quarters are preserved in Córdoba, in part, in other
parts, in Granada, the gypsies have had their own territory, which have
always been on the outskirts of the cities. And so where the gypsies have
managed to elaborate their culture and turn them into gypsy centers, they have expropriated
them, they have taken their places. It serves as an example Triana.
The gypsy has been Entriana since 1, 500 seventy, where there were fourteen
forges, which must be understood that in those moments of the time, the
gypsies were what supplied the Spanish army with everything that was blacksmith and all the
maintenance, both agricultural and war Spain. I was at war at the time.
Then that place. There they develop a way of life. In fact,
in the 1950s the first Gypsy school appeared. We are talking, that
is, the level of inclusion there was absolutely total. There they have been,
there have been cribs of bullfighting like the cocks. And what to say
about the gypsy before that was the forge. For in the years from the
fifties and sixties, behind a political economic interest, they use the Gypsies and
turn them literally, they leave it outside and in the late sixties, as
in the San Pablo polygon, it is a urbanistic failure, because the Sevillian
worker does not want to go to live and do not know what to do
with that housing. They host these gypsies by staying from the three thousand living
and many empty, that many gypsies coming from other parts, which were to
walk rivers, end up creating a ghetto. In the 1980s, the issue
of drugs, heroin, has become a ghetto where for many years they have
been stigmatized, but Gypsies do not seek to live in it. Another thing
is that there are already four or five generations who have grown up in that
context and I have seen it. Another reality that you will like to live
here surrounded by misery and that the nearest health center has it twelve kilometers away.
We all like mon Iberian, of course, of course, he'
s true. This reflection is interesting. I remember when I started, that
I also learned to read. I learned to read well, because I had
gone too little alcohol, because I was very sick. I was eight to
twelve and barely read more. I learned to read well by reading the New
Testament. He was a young man, he was a kid, but I
started reading. I was late for culture. I started reading everything not and
I started reading Paco Candela, Francisco Candel, who was then senator for a
political party during democracy and was a man who advocated human rights and such an
interesting one. But Paco Candel lived in the cheap houses here, in the
free trade zone, which was populated mostly by gypsies, the vast majority and
has several books. Well he is the famous author of the other Catalans to
the Catalan salters that the other Catalans, no, but that is a book
of very interesting inclusivity, but he has several books I was moved to start
reading. They were the first books I started reading. And that' s
where the city changes its name. There are some social descriptions of the misery,
of the marginalization, especially of the gypsies. And then they have killed
a man, they have broken a landscape, I remember, another one of
his books and or the character in question was such, the gypsy who was
a gypsy too and such and to me it was my soul to read stasis
that he described them so that they became aware of these marginal groups, but
not socially marginalized, and that he demanded social justice for all and especially for
them. So, and that was him, he started in the' 60s
and it started in the' 60s. There in the cheap houses, like
the three thousand houses of Seville, so emblematic that you told us. I
mean, it means it' s true. It is the history of marginalization
that, well, it seems that the public authorities, little by little sections
of the public authorities, are awakening to inclusiveness. That is precisely where it
is also very important to bear in mind that, for example, three thousand
sevillaapolícalo houses south of the Barcelona mine, but the Evangelical Church, with a
very important empresía and there are doactors that I do not today part of the
work of Philadelphia. But for me that' s insignificant. What a human
organization I belong to. For me the most important thing is Jesus Christ,
the body of Christ and the evangelical faith transcending human organizations. But from here
I want to pay a tribute to those protors who are in those slums,
who are essated, who the majority society, say that you are from the
mine, who are of the three thousand houses that from Palma, for me
already produce a rejection. These pastors are there working, sitting in front of
the drugs, facing marginality, facing social exclusion, school failure, and those
men do not have those resources anymore. I don' t think any of
them don' t even have a living wage to live on. Of them
those pastors who are there make markets or are working at other hours to prepare
yes, those pastors, I say and the ministerial body and the rest of
members, but keep in mind that really the autonomous state plans of city hall,
which do have economic resources, do not develop or do such important social
work or are doing those evangelical churches. Yeah, without that, it'
s pretty accurate. I am a witness, I am the director of the
Evangelical Council of the Churches of Barcelona and I know all these pitfalls and from
near and far, and it is very true and neighborhoods like the Mina or
San Roque and so many others, or the Dusterín of other cities also and
what the Gypsy churches have in those places. And this we want to put
into value and vindicate it, because it is very true. Besides, I
would say it as a sociologist also although I am a training journalist, but
I also have features of that. It means where the gypsy evangelical churches are.
They exercise a social influence, a catalyst against the surrounding crime, against
marginalization, against all kinds of negative things. That is, the benign positive
effect of the Gypsy churches. Where they are is very high. Some politicians
have noticed little and have favored the ground. There are few cases, but
there are. One of them is the mine. By the way, the
City Hall was very sensitive to this. But that the social influence they exert
positive and reintegration, the redemption of substantial changes in the Community, surrounding the
siglesiacity, is barbarous. So this is one thing to put into value.
I put in a professional worker. By chance yesterday we were in a meeting
with a town hall here, on the island of Tenerife, and when they
the technicians, ask for reference that or social worker more of community court.
I understand that the Evangelical Church in the case of the Gypsy people, not
only in the Gypsy people, the churches that work with migrations, that is,
this is a work that the Evangelical Church does, regardless of the last
name we want to put assemblies of God Philadelphia free brothers, the Evangelical Church
in Spain is the best ally that social services have, because in the largest
support network that works you are interested. The evangelical people are an altruistic people,
100 per cent of whom are on canyons working multilevelly in different spheres.
If there is a problem of marriage, conflict resolution or an anti- drug,
vice, anti- crime message and a reintegration holiday, who accepts those
100 percent principles are not psychologists, it' s true, but I don
' t know what they have that after all, one is talk, Pastor
tells you, ends up transforming life. I don' t know what you
' re doing. They are not a doctor, it is true, but
a prayer of these people produces a well- being if the majority society were
aware of the effects. He has the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ
without a doubt, although I understand that every free and willing person has to
take to the faith and how he wants to live and are respectable, but
it is sad that, as the Gypsy people are stigmatized. I suffer from
a number of discriminations, but I suffer more discrimination because I am evangelical than
because I am gypsy and sometimes because I am gypsy because I am evangelical.
I don' t know why I' m discriminated against anymore, but if
there' s something that hurts me so much, it' s discrimination that
I also suffer because I' m evangelical. We are stigmatized so that,
having a message of hope, a message of ugly resilient elements, we will
not be able to get it to the majority society free of prejudice. Another
thing is that I want to assist them later, but I do believe that
we must fight as much as gypsies as Latinos as evangelicals. One of the
great problems we have in Spain is called prejudices yes, we have to overcome
that because, for example, I recently launched an article in my weekly blog
of digital protestation, which the evangelical churches contribute to Spanish society an endless number
of things not only laculto or cultual, which is of our vein of faith,
of course it is very important for us. But beyond that, the
evangelical social work is imposing. It is imposing comparatively and in addition that the
car we finance with own resources from personal donations. But this is true.
In social mediation, in human conflicts, mediation in families, in the community
between people, accompaniment, everything is that value from the human point of view,
all this is a tremendous enormous value that we pastors and believers also bring
to this work. There is an interesting chapter that you have already made notes
about the Gypsy people, Spanish citizens of full right. That' s where
you give us a note. Yes, to see is that many people,
even those who have been the most surprised up to a thousand nine hundred and
seventy- eight, do not begin to recognize us as full citizens, that
is, in the case of my families, as we are living in Melidia,
that belonged to the Spanish protectorate in Spain and that, in fact,
it is still Mély of Spain. There is one when you meet another,
another ethnic group, another a genic group that are in the social strata,
moreover, you can be access to public schools and so on. But a
very famous singer who is Amaya remedies, who shares the Christian faith. Regardless,
I haven' t had the pleasure to meet her, but to have
seen her act some time again. She' s one of the interviews that
makes her realize that her illusion was to go to school. Her father,
her mother buys her a pen and she goes with two leaves, with her
little eye and her pen is twelve years old and when she goes to school,
she is made and told that gypsies cannot enter. A thousand nine hundred
and eighty- five, the Amen ochente program can be put on YouTube,
you can see it Vicálvaro and different central parts of Madrid are barricaded so that
the gypsy children do not go to school. Yeah, it' s just
very important. A cousin of mine who by national he. Speaking with him,
Joseph tells me you have to keep in mind that a good part of
the gypsies who live in the great cities Padrid. We' re in the
second generation that you have sanitation at home. I mean. It' s
sad. It is sad to know that there is some generation that people who
are thirty, thirty- five years old individuals in shantytown and, in fact,
right now the real pregnant, as they exceed the thousands of people who
do not have in a plenum and a winter kur like two years ago,
with temperatures below five degrees, you did not even have light. Tremendous tremendous
is really painful. Sorry, because this topic gives a lot of itself,
but I love it is your descriptive way of explaining to us and making a
breviary, because the theme is to read it from the Canarian punch. It
' s the story of the Gypsy people. Da Arvel Botch. Can you
on Amazon platforms against José Carmona Santiago? José Carmona Santiago and this magnificent book
make a bet a day. But before we say goodbye, I' d
like you to give us a review of your book. The Cross. The
title caught my attention, because the Cross always strikes me. So deep is
the inexhaustible theme and there Alex now puts us on Facebook lights. This book
The Cross is the result of my personal emotions. I, although right now
I exercise it as a pastor, because I am in science, in research,
because I collaborate with the different ones. It is all the churches that
allow me to do so, so they are part of emotional and I understand
that the whole base, the whole basis of Christian identity, has to do
with the cross. Christian conversion is the fact, as we identify with the
work of Jesus Christ, we identify with that death and with that resurrection.
And from there is where the new life is in Christ. So if we
understand that our new life in Christ is contact with the Cross, on the
Cross, through the Cross, the Cross has been an element that for centuries,
for the Greeks, the barbarians, the Romans, in a place of
cruelty, of reproach, of contempt for the Jews, even cursed, when
Jesus is on the Cross, has made it the symbol of hope the Cross.
The human being who has fallen on the Cross has been able to have
forgiveness for his sins, salvation, justification, redemption, and has been able
to have expation and reconciliation with God. And if there is a transformative message
of the peoples. It is the message of the cross, which breaks down
all ethnic barriers, that what you use all even denominational barriers, which separates
everything that can separate us. When we get to the Cross, that'
s where we meet. That' s one of my big fights. My
struggle is not focused today on what separates us. My struggle is focused on
what unites us. And I believe that the element of the cross is the
key for there to be a people and Jesus, and by this they will
know that you are my disciples and their hamas to one another. And it
is precisely in this Union with Christ, through the resurrection death of Jesus,
that we can project a different Christianity. It is a super simple book of
devotional character and with some brief theological explanations of the grandeur of the Cross,
simply because it does not reach a particle of sand on the immense beaches of
the depth of the Cross. How interesting, well, what wealth, how
many things not. And we can see from the history of a people,
from a people as dear to many of us as the Gypsy people in general,
and not also that immense number of believers, of faithful evangelical Christians who
are that immigration from popular Catholic religiosity to a biblical evangelical Christianity and also to
a whole series of expressions that go more into the vein of the Gypsy people.
Also then and then all the historical avatars that are many, there are
countless then we will also talk to other friends, also gypsy writers, writers
who will give us even more data to make a bet to the day on
this important topic. José Carmona, the Truth, dear Saint Joseph Carmona Santiago,
dear friend, the truth and brother God, we will see you shortly,
for I send you a very affectionate embrace. Thank you so much for
the opportunity and thanks for the beautiful work that makes us visible the work that
the evangelical people put us in value in front of society. God honor you
and God bless you. Thanks a lot, buddy. Until always you on
the train of life life. Today I want to introduce you to an incomparable
lord. I give you a view, but for your life to change who
walks over the sea. We' re blind already I present Jesus to you.
I' ll make you walk ahead of stare watch you walk in front
of me. If it weren' t for Jesus, I wouldn' t
be there, but walk in front of my face of You, look in
front of me, son, one last chance, that is, that you
have at your disposal walk and let yourself embrace Dome be a coward that he
died for you in the cru and shed all his blood for forgiveness of your
sins. Jesus, don' t stop me. Walk forward, look great
at me walking on the side of me, the walk looks ahead of me.
If it wasn' t for Jesus, I dream already and hope that
he walks before me the look walks The camera of Aia of You, my
camera looks ahead of me. Well, well, Mr Hallelujah, but my
mother. I don' t want to scratch this, nor do I want
the money. I prepare your face- to- face. I come to
heaven. This look ahead of this look forward look look vintage look, look
forward to me before you walk look forward or become holy compare r or not.
No. I' m sure, but I' m not sure.
But the Traffic and Road Safety Act has changed. We changed the rules,
because the way we moved has also changed. So, now, if you
' re not wearing your belt, you can lose four points, new times,
new rules. Directorate- General for Traffic, Ministry of the Interior,
Government of Spain. And never leave me alone in the tub or places with
water. Don' t let them emit luis fingers are a hinchufi. Don
' t leave me in the face of an open window. You tell her
within reach of tissue substances or a thousand paths. You tell him to swallow
me the small pieces of If you neglect, your eyeball can be dangerous for
your children. Don' t worry, avoid accidents. For what you want
most Ministry of Health and Consumer Affairs a Government of Spain. Juan invests 180
euros a month in suffering. Alberto invests 200 euros in extortion. Carlos invests
150 euros in kidnappings. Every time you pay you' re investing in mobs,
extortion, harassment, help them out, don' t invest in suffering
against trafficking in women. Be aware, Government of Spain, you travel on
the train of life. Or ladies and gentlemen, well, I have the
pleasure and I believe the honor of interviewing our friend Cfora Vargas. Sefora Vargas
is a lawyer, also a writer, a good writer. Besides, I
' m pleased when you look when you write and I don' t know
if you' re good or not so good, because you skip not and
say good is a writer or writer. But when he' s a good
writer, we underline him. This is the case of Sefora Vargas, who
has several publications on the emancipation of women and particularly of women in general,
and of the gypsy woman, who she also represents very dignifiedly. Not good,
because she is a defender of women' s rights, also on this
Thursday, practically this day eight that we are celebrating just these days, which
is International Working Women' s Day, on 8 March always this week.
Well, today we talk to Sefora Vargas about a book, a second book
that is the history of the Gypsy people. For Dumis, this is an
addition to the survival of silenced heroes. It is an interesting book, historical,
rigorous, dramatic, descriptive, but also that in some way vindicates the
figure of the citizen or gypsy, of the man and the woman, of
the young, of the child, of the gypsy, which is, a
good measure, already inserted in society. But there is still obscure in the
social sphere about the stigma of the gypsy. So, well, I think
that this contribution is very interesting, as we have seen with other authors,
also very affectionate gypsies, like my dear friend José Carmona, doctor in psychology,
or Antonio Carmona also theologian and doctor in theology, etcetera. No and
that we have been able to talk about these things, because I want to
welcome Séfora Vargas, ladies and gentlemen, good morning, Séfora Hello, good
morning, how are you? Everything. Thank you so much for the invitation.
It' s a pleasure to be able to hear you Séphora, how
are you? From Andalusia, from Seville, we don' t talk,
yes, I' m from Seville. I live here and well, everything
' s great. The truth is, it' s time I did a
lot of work, because it actually makes me a woman. It is international
of women and with motifs of the 8th day, because they are celebrated and
they are carried out a lot of faction throughout the whole of the Then there
is already a little drop go on the 8th day because I am already flanking
energy. Yeah, all right, thank God. I have seen you announced
at some public conferences on Working Women' s Day about International Women' s
Day, International Women' s Day, and I have seen that you are
already giving lectures. And, well, how good, how nice that you
can so dignify the emancipation of women, of women oppressed by their rights.
Of course, I know outside the theme of the history of the Gypsy people
for dumis the survival of some Sidential heroes. This is a book that claims
in a loud way the reintegration to all the effects of the city or gypsy,
of the city of Agita. Right, well, the history of the
Agitan people for dance. It pretends to be, and seems to be,
thank God that I have managed to do an exhautive study of law and comparative
victory that encompasses not only the history of Spain, which we also have magnificent
historians and people who have contributed to the discovery and the contribution of the history
of the Gypsy people. I don' t eat e- e- e
- e- e- e- e- e- e- e-
e- e- e- e- e- e- e- e
- e- e- e- e- e- e- e-
e- e- e- e- e- e- e- e
- e- e- e- e- e- e- e-
e- e- e- e- e- e- e- e
- e- e- e- e- e- e- e-
e- e- e- e- e- e- e- e
- e- e- e- e- e- e- e-
e- e- e- e- e- e- e- e
- e- e- e- e- e- e- e-
e- e- e- e- e- e- e- e
- e- e- e- e- e- e- e-
e- e. Manuel Martínez Martínez, in fact, is my Prologosist a
pride to me that he has been and a great friend. But what I
intended was to bring history closer to people. Why, because history is often
written in such a technical way, so rigorous, so difficult that so difficult
to access, because not everyone has the ability to understand a legal slang.
I hear historiographical, as are the history books and it was necessary to create
an easy book, accessible, but at the same time intense discouragement, where
you would leave the national territory and where you could compare what happened, for
example, in the United States, how did the gypsies arrive in the United
States, what has been the treatment in much of all the countries of Europe,
how has the treatment been in the United Kingdom? To tell unusual facts
that are not yet known about the Second World War and the Nazi gypsy holocaust,
which there are many people who still do not know, that three quarters
of the Roma population in Europe died and were so many rights silenced, so
many historical events so important that, moreover, not only have been hidden,
but, moreover, they have almost always been counted by people who are not
gypsy. And thank God that at the time they were able to get the
story out of that hidden intraictoria, but the identity component of ours was missing,
there was a need for a titan voice with a jar. How did
these persecutions affect us, those prasmatics, for example, how is the case
here in Spain? Not how we lost our tongue, why our ancestor often
joked, does not tell the anecdote many times of a uncle of mine who
told me to you I go through all ears and my brother and I hid
terrified and covered our ears and we ran to hide. And then I discovered
later that the cutting of the ears was practiced as reoffending symbols for all those
Africans who had contravened the plasmas. Then we had to unite history, comparative
history and, in addition, the identity component of how it impacted, of
how we feel and how we live gypsy culture. And those stages of assimilation,
which is why and that is African victory. Then I already have people
who have criticized me for being paranoid in my intention to include the term for
Damis was more than anything for making a book that was sensitive, that was
easy, that was counted from an easy perspective, that was not complex.
However, I already have a good person, I have yesterday and I received
a beautiful message, a criticism from a law professor of my faculty who has
read the book and tells me that the book involves a research work so great
that it deserves them to include the term dance and the truth that touched me.
Then I' m happy with the work you' re doing. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, well, I think it' s very interesting story
of the Gypsy pole for Damis the survival of some silent publishing heroes. Remember
us, he doesn' t have an editorial. Julio I have the custom,
the wonderful habit of avoiding with today I had to tell a video explaining
why. Yes, yes, and he explained why briefly, because in the
first book I had criticisms of some publishers who had the boldness of not allowing
the cover of the first book to be the one it was. Te.
I appeared with my hands tied with a rope in a defensive position. No
and I knew perfectly well that this image of the book had to be the
cover, because that' s how we have felt most women throughout history and
especially in the Thescana. And then they also wanted to correct me in how
I counted some very important parts, such as the bathroom test. I count
it with incredible respect, both for those who want to continue practicing it and
people who do not want to do it. And they wanted to change my
narrative. And, finally, they also wanted to forbid me from making presentations
in humble neighborhoods or neighborhoods of social exclusion, because I said that for a
Nobel writer that took away. Perfu then literally sent them for a walk and
I told myself that in my work I commanded that no one knows more than
I of what I have lived, suffered or worked, that I can affect
orthotypeographic corrections and all the collections I want with respect to narrative, but not
to what I tell neither as I tell it, let alone to the cover.
And I already took the thing submerged because it was great, because besides,
that way I could reach other continents. In the United States I have
many followers who buy me, who read me university professors and I have stayed
away with love. Yeah, yeah, well, perfect, perfect. Look.
I have to publish some books and I am thinking about Amazon more than
anything else, because I also want to be independent, I want to be
myself too and I think I subscribe to that statement look at the book The
History of the Gypsy People. For Dumis, the survival of non- silent
beings is an accessible work, easy to understand, but with an overwhelming intensity,
as was being said, because historically, society has maintained a vision of
the impoverished, perverse and linked gypsy pole of crime, for having concealed the
atrocities carried out on them, as it was, for example, slavery,
forced settlement, mass deportations, torture and degrading treatment, mutilations punishments of public
shame, exemplary punishments, drownings, hangings, shootings, attempts at biological exterminations,
genocides and crimes against humanity, massive deteriorations, as was the case.
Also from the Nazi genocide with the Gypsies there were many medical experiments, retreaded
from the custody of their children, erased and lost and identity is overwhelming.
Then the group work is total. Your life' s work with the real
facts of a surviving Nazi family. I like it a lot in the first
good, in the introduction you talk about that about this person you knew about,
tell us a little bit about this case of the family survivor who had
survived the concentration camp. Yeah, he wants me to tell the story a
little bit so people can come in, mouth to buy the book that needs
to be done. This book is a book you have to have, you
have to buy it and go back to it several times. It' s
a hist ear. Thank you very much, Julio Mira, it' s
a hard story to tell. What happens is that I made a step with
that older man, with that gypsy, with the respect that we would tell
him in due course. But I' ve silenced her since the year two
thousand eight, which was when I met him. I was working in an
entity and suddenly no child, a group of very tall gypsies, very good
plant, apri helps us. He needed to be a medicine for his father,
because the father was diabetic and did not sell him medicines without prescription.
Respectfully. Then it caught my attention because they were nomadic gypsies and wanderers.
They were still living in caravans and I was the first holdings they had with
European gypsies at those levels. Not then did I pick up the phone,
we helped him and in the afternoon they had also told me that their ladies
had not allowed her to enter the shops of the Center of Seville because they
are seen leagues that were gypsy and because there are racism and classism that there
are many times in the big capitals, because they could not buy the summer
shoes that they needed. So, I, at the time, was an
entrepreneur, had shoe stores, apart from working in that entity, and I
carried two boxes of two pairs of slippers and the real ones, the beautiful
esparto dagger shoes. He tells them in gratitude, for he came out of
the old man, just the one who needed that recipe and invited me to
his house, to his caravan and well, he served us an exquisite tea,
a t with fruit in between with strawberries that I in life had tasted
with dried fruit when I was in that caravan. I was given the beautiful
knitting, because it is as if I had this first brutal encounter with the
oldest of our identity, because, as the Spanish gypsy people lost their identity
almost at all levels, one of them, because that element of movement did
not force us to strengthen ourselves, to leave our trades. When I was
there and I was hallucinating and many times I got lost even in the course
of his conversation, there were things that didn' t pay attention to him,
until, suddenly, in an older gypsy he was very magno, very
bad, very bad. I don' t know what I had. I
wouldn' t be around the' 90s or' 90s. So much was
very old. I can' t say age. A man is very revered
as an impressive shiner like wrinkles and scars in the soul that it was noticed,
not and suddenly he discovers his arm, lifts it up and teaches me
a tattooed triangle and a number like a blade forward. Then I knew what
I was at the time. My body was cut off, we had tears
sitting down and the man daughter told me you were studying, because there to
David I was studying straight. I' m going to tell you a story
that no one knows and I hope that someday you' ll tell it very
briefly, the man told me how he could escape a concentration camp. He
didn' t even give me the pis field data. It was not able
to say what or audio, because when I was late I had completely lost
the notion of the time of life. It was a killing machine here.
The older man and the man, in an oversight by the guards who were
guarding the barracks of the gypsy family, said that he took advantage of a
hole that they had barbed because nights earlier an African lady had tried to escape
and logically had amplified her and had beaten her to death. And then they
had taken advantage of that barbed wire and had a triple barbed wire that I
had managed to make. The hole in the three barbed wires caught his own,
whom he could, including a little boy or I little ones he had
and ran away. They ran out through the woods. Then neither his health,
nor his shoes, nor his clothes, nor anything was nourished. You
know what the bodies of the camp prisoners were like. No points to imagine
the situation, how those children were and in that flight, in that terrifying
stampede, because the man told you and I couldn' t stop crying.
As they ran, ran and ran, they began to listen to the fields
forgiveness, to the dogs that had already given the alarm voice, they had
already put in the siren. They were focusing the forest so that the vecences
would be behind them and they could locate him, capture him and bring us
back to the field. They contemplate in the midst of that agonic flight,
his son, little boy, falls and he thinks he broke his leg because
of the deformity he had. Then I didn' t stop crying. He
panicked at the barking of the hills, at the sound of the mermaid,
at the panic of everything he was living, and that child couldn' t
get over the crying or even the pain. Then they kept getting closer to
the dogs, sometimes they had closer. They reached a river and supposedly just
behind the river, they were already entering the border with another country where they
could no longer be perceived. And one didn' t even know what country
it was, what a fool it was, what a river it was.
Nothing, not a completely traumatised mexico memory. When they arrived at the river
he said that the dogs were already at Cosner' s points, they were
very close. Then the father has to make a choice between life and death,
between choosing to save fifteen people and the rest of his family or not
doing in any way the crying in his man took his child' s head,
put it under the water, rustled the river if they were not wide
and when they reached the other line, logically they already arrived at a situation
where they were safe. They tried the animal. Not a chance. It
' s hard for me to tell it, because having to sacrifice your own
child to save all your family is terrible. Then I' d had a
lot of years with those points and that was in my head, but I
had promised him final. I' ll tell you about it sometime. And
so it is, when I saw the moral obligation to make a book where
everyone recongests the maximum that had come to give my information, it does not
forgive here in emotions. But as an activist, as a lawyer, as
a professional, I have accumulated not only thousands of experiences of these twenty-
four or twenty- five years of activism, but of knowledge of everything one
has to study and investigate in order to face your profession. Not then was
it time for all of us to be counted together, not only the part
that the distoriators count, but our memory, the memory to nieica, the
memories, the importance of our religious rituals or even in funerary, the importance
of the Marine system, the importance of those survival strategies. This man was
a hero, but at the same time very much for his own son.
Or it is terrible the sacrifice that in some moments has had to face the
people of Agrican to put on me but harder of everything up to it.
Until the eighties and twos the cap was never recognized of making me what story
excited me against injustices. We must fight at all costs of whatever it takes.
Not Jesus was the most just man in human history, but he also
tells us that blessed are the peacemakers and those who do justice. I like
it very much in the first chapter, our destiny can only be changed if
we allow ourselves to imagine a different one. This word, this phrase is
precious, makes us dream of the possibility of true change. You have to
dream if you don' t, you dream, if you don' t
have the ability to change your reality, to imagine what your life would be
if it could be or give to do you never do. You need to
see visions have dreams. I, when I was a child, was unthinkable
many things, but I was always sleepy. I had the magnificent opportunity and
luck that I was born in a Christian, that my father would say Christian
and gypsies and allow me a lot, but there were things that were unthinkable,
even to me. And that exercise of overcoming and believing in your own
are and never sell your identity, neither your values nor your beliefs. I
really do make books and then the title of that book is a little wink.
To this must be believed in another opportunity and emphatic or introduce the need
of the Gypsy people. Not that that' s going to be that article
of rewriting our own story. It is not enough there, because we are
known, because as the critical qualifying arguments adjectives that give upon us throughout the
history of literature, as ruffians, the dirty, vag a thief, a
trapper. Well we have even been accused that we were the ones who forged
the nails and chrysso imagine, there is no legend of all colors. Then
we had to take that visionist look, raise up, not dignify our position
and create our own vision of who it is and why we have given this
suffering and made it professed an assimilation. How many things there are in this
book and what you are saying comes out of the heart, but also from
the truth, from the social truth, from the anatemization of the gypsy,
much more in the past and in the present. Some stereotypes still need to
be overcome that are socially entangled by saying gypsies. So it is and clear
when we discover good people, there are many you are, you séphora,
it is, josé is or there is a list of gypsy intellectuals who contribute
and who, besides, claim not only the gypsy culture, but the reintegration
into the social consciousness of the gypsy as a singular citizen, but as others
are and as others are. In one of the chapters, when you say
claudicate or die page in these three chapters, in bold, you say I
pick up the Spanish stage in a very close and experiential way. Hence the
term for Damis, because I am not only interested in exalting the two hundred
and fifty gypsy legal provisions that were promulgated, but also, transfer to the
reader, the experiences of the persecuted, the suffering of these families. Therefore,
they are told by genetic memory, by the knowledge it has transmitted to
us, with its community silences and traumas and adapted with all the rigor of
the scientific method and gypsy historiography. So here we are already a little bit
on specific cases. No, I don' t. What I do is
it' s safe. A family. It is a family, the family
of the Eye, with all its children, its characters, the wife of
Juan Dolores is not the emblematic name Dolores suffering and in those fictional characters.
Actually, what it does is I cover what really happened to all the gypsy
families. There comes this context of historical professor, of assimilations, of anti
- gypsy laws. I' ve heard and I' ve been told hundreds
of my anecdote about taking three oranges from the Civil Guard. At the time
there were battles and we all know that the righteous are not even condemnable to
Mexico. In other words, care must be taken, but the presumption of
innocence has always been violated with the gypsy. So, all those experiences of
persecutions, those events that have told me, I have introduced it, not
only by telling what they achieved, for example, the first pragmatic Catholic challenge,
which was the great raid, is the first attempt at a cbiological genocide,
where they separated us men from women so that we would not own them,
so that they would be extinguished. I tell you how far I'
ve been able to find out by investigating and interviewing skilled personnel A tidad is
the sum of all of their memories is the sum of those experiences. That
' s why I pick up appearance is as important as fighting, burials.
He respects the deceased. It' s not a history book, it'
s just a lot more. That' s it. It is not the
mixture of history, culture, experience, lithic memory. I explain what critical
memory and trauma is. It is very important, the community traumas, because
after the great raid there is a generational silence, a silence so great that,
in reality, the majority of the gypsy people do not even know that
it was the great tida. Our mothers arrived for a moment, our great
- grandmothers who stopped telling us the horrors. There are things that haven'
t even cost her. They' ve never told us what the big raid
was. They told you one percent. They were rapping us, punishing us,
beating us, but they didn' t tell you what they were separated
from their husbands. There is a silence there, a silence scientifically demonstrated.
No, we don' t have access to them. And then, after
all my research, he came to the conclusion that if there is, for
example, the Lise syndrome that develops Atrin, seven stages, which is the
one that occurs when an immigrant person leaves his country, comes in pasture,
suffers what I drink from crossing the sea and then tries to adapt to a
culture that is not his own. Yes, yes, that is justified,
studied and has a name. How is it possible that the flight is suffering
six hundred years, for example, in Spain, practically of discrimination up to
one thousand nine hundred seventy- eight, which was proclaimed the Constitution and entered
the process of democracy. How is it possible that no one has studied the
gican people since repective, from the social, community, intergnidational traumas, what
consequence that has had No one naga with teaching it. Then there are questions
and approaches that I even name the theories that no one had done, the
theory of shutting up for love. Our mothers let us teach our own self,
because if we talked about it, we were worried or could kill.
And that' s it. We talk about trauma, whether it' s
the theory of shutting up for love, we also talk about the secret,
the grammar, the secret of not saying what the gypsy, the secret genes
the secret gene. Then it' s very complete. The book doesn'
t just tell you about historical events. It is interwoven between anecdotes like the
one you have told us about experiences or you make a simulation of a family
scene, like the one you told us. The latter that identifies identify Let
' s say the social paradigm of the Gypsies in general, seen from the
outside and how they did not live, not and how they did not live.
For example, I didn' t just want to see July to read
the history of the Gypsy people. In Spain there are hundreds of books,
there are many and some very good, but for you to know how they
lived, how they felt, they had to be described by a gypsy person
and then how they ate, what they did to eat, how they got
up in the morning, what you were going through. One of them died
where I found him. What happened when he wasn' t allowed to make
a deal. What happened when they were already prevented from making a living?
This is the part that I do. What I do is that one has
already done so the reader automatically in what it does is that empatist commented without
much in history gets in to such an extent that in the end I suffer
a lot because I have people and they have already told me about it.
I think there have been ten people who have told me that the book cannot
read it received, that there is already a part of the book where they
suffer so much that it causes anxiety and that they have to stop reading about,
two or three days and then take them back from the intensity it has.
Yes, it is a very intense book, but it is intertwined with
these anecdotes that are very descriptive and also the stories, for example, the
gypsies in the Americas, brief study on slavery in general and especially the slavery
of the gypsies in Romania, the chronology of exhaustive persecution and much more.
The geometry of hatred, the Nazi horror in the fields and many things derived
from them gitated them in England and Scotland and many more. Survival strategies,
the theory of shutting up for love and the power of the verb. There
is, for example, gypsy engineering. It' s also another very interesting
thing you describe here in this book. True yes, I love giving names
to things that society had not named. Gypsy engineering is the ability, resilience,
the ingenuity that a gican people have had to power over it. That
' s what I had to put my name on. They are social engineers,
of great intentions, of supervisory strategies and there is bread from tricks to
be able to sell a lame horse, as it was to prick an intention
of I do not remember what it was now. I don' t think
I remember now my memory fails, but I' ve got it pointed out
for him to leave. It was like a relaxing pocular, to lengthen his
leg and hide the coast from those tricks that today I could say that'
s an escape, it' s a hidden vice. The moment has been
sold in the midst of that oppression and persecution. If what they had in
a lame burrito or they had to sell it you know, then it goes
from those survival strategies to great intentions of knowing the breasts of nature, of
how to know the time, depending on the flowers, of how to be
able to deduce the time they incline the theriological, depending on how the flowers
were opened or created, of how they left silueles when there was neither the
phone nor the whatsapp to be able to communicate with other relatives of theirs who
came after them. So they' re such nice things that I' ve
been able to investigate, and I' ve been able to scratch every place
that was worth putting together the clears. And there are also survival strategies that
are very hard I speak it, to the rest I speak from my family
' s team. There were people who had to change their surname to avoid
persecution and tense ones. There are people who have had to live who were
titans in order to survive people, for example, in the UK, who
there, specifically the Gypsies, were very dark when they arrived and called him
the Christian. Also in order to change their appearance they began to mix with
more blonde, whiter or dangerous women so that there would be mutations in the
meth. Imagine to the point, to what extent the engineering of survival was
set in motion to be able to face persecution and death is strong. And
now he' s also invited that there are people and they tell me,
but don' t tell me that. No, don' t count how
I won' t tell if I have a commitment to absolute truth and to
history, as I' m going to. For example, my grandfather,
my father' s military diego, that he was if I gave you your
day of words. Don' t see you. Yes, yes, it
' s very strong. Yeah, yeah, yeah, look at that jutism.
It changes them a lot gypsy that they had to do it, and
not because they had an ideology from right to cream much less, but because
it was the way to ally you on one side or another in order to
survive, to protect. I can support their families with something exact another acquaintance
that I put in my book as well. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,
yeah, no, it' s not interesting. It' s just that
well I' m going to remind our listeners that we' re talking to
Vargas and look at history of the Gypsy people for Damis the survival of silenced
heroes. Without a doubt they have been now many years ago, they have
not, because we are talking to someone properly gypsy and we have talked and
talked these days with several gypsy intellectuals who, besides they also have a confessional
Christian worldview of life. In addition, this, then, also enriches one
of the already practically last chapters, the brief topic consideration on gypsy identity,
a chapter where the conventional parameters from where they have studied and considered us are
broken and criticized. You tell us a break with anthropology, sociology and a
critique of medicine for not having developed or studied the diseases that concern the Gypsy
people specifically. This, this is big. Yeah, it' s strong.
Yeah, somebody had to say it and it' s my turn.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, yeah, let' s
start with the first thing that' s been followed by anthropology. No,
yeah, yeah, look, when I was six, I couldn' t
find books referring to the history of the gypsy people. I asked my father,
my good mother, who knows the right of the Gypsy people and always
had the same answer. And that' s already been lost, but it
' s worth nothing. If we' re still here in the hospital,
there' ll be something. There was such a big void. He stopped
to know. He made me do a lot of research, but until the
eighties and sixs and eighty- seven eighty- eight there were no good publications
on this. Then, a few years later, a prolification of publications and
books begins that certain anthropologists with a very strong respect and consideration at national and
international level. Where they pass that the identity to titana was practically unexcindable,
of the marginality and of the poverty in Lafan. When I read that to
me it' s a very decent I did, a rehearsal people. You
can say that, because of the assimilation, the persecution, the historical and
political processes, the suffering of war, the civil war, the persecution of
the franc, the regime of the Second Republic, that the law that will
catch thugs is not nourished by the frankness of the Second Republic. You can
tell me that, based on all the legislation that has followed logically, there
has not been an ostrafism and an enormous economic, critical and cultural delay and
that is that fr can. But you cannot say that the identity of which
the giants are inextensible from misery, because it is causality. It is the
cause of that time that the book, that part, that specific chapter,
is a criticism, but to the way in which we have been studied,
to the approaches that have been made many cases without ricotor and moreover, we
have been studied in a biased way on the one hand, anthropologists, on
the other, sociologists by others, historians, doctors have not even paid attention
to us. There are many important gretical flats that your friend gtana that because
of this that our culture many times three montabou do not say, but I
know cases where they have been born with three facts and that is very related
also to problems of inbreeding to marry each other cousins brothers, cousins brothers very
many, many problems of hormonals, desutism, women who have a lot of
hairs, even men who have developed breast more than they have had to have
surgery. It has not occurred to anyone to think that it is the result
of many historical causes, it has had a direct impact on health, or
that certain internal circumstances of culture, as in inbreeding, already by result a
series of consequences, a series of diseases. So, the book is also
a criticism of those lack of rigorousness, that lack of study and that lack
of will to contend with a very interesting decr. It becomes essential as we
talk to Sefora Vargas that to enter into matter, I advise our listeners of
the train of life in so many Spanish cities to take this book from the
platform also of Amazon. You are the author Acéfora Vargas, this dear lawyer
and also a lecturer. The story of the Gypsy people for Damis and the
survival of silenced heroes. One topic is the subtitle no, but very interesting
to be up to date and find answers. I believe that social natermination of
the gypsy. I believe we are in a process of change and social change.
I mean. You' re asking me. I say I don'
t think out loud. I am a little costy July, because, in
my view, we have a regression in values, in rights and in the
evolution of the pelostal. If society in general, we are suffering from the
shame of bad political decisions of the covid crisis. After the Covid, the
post Covid has changed the lives of many people and is changing the economic situation
and has left many people in the Gypsy cube. There are other issues that
affect him and especially the mutation. In my view, he could still have
adapted. There are some weighty arguments I don' t want to discuss here.
It is not going to be appropriate, but above all that is related
to radicalist positions of the Bible and interpretations that are sometimes very delicate, that
are very stopped and end up being behaviors are sometimes scavenging where they are re
- invisibilizing and is re- dinnering progress, no longer just the silence of
women. We are talking about progress, the ability to leave, the ability
to work, the ability to work in other jobs, in other social roles.
I believe that everything that evolved in the first moment with the Gospel,
which was extraordinary because it helped many gypsies to get out of that situation of
social exclusion, is today well sectioned by bad paintings. I was remembering your
previous book than about the emancipation of women. Remember is the title called the
price of freedom, which cost some gypsy women to be free. There'
s two of them. This book can also be obtained by Amazon. Also
Yes, the two books are in love with the appreciation of our friend'
s freedom if it were vargas. It was dealt with there, Yes,
it was about the she specific approach of women, as it is logical,
although in this one I also do, because in this book I talk about
the Marine system. The marine system is inspired by the system of the pure
and unimpure, as it could in the Old Testament, in the Jewish seye
of purity, impurity and woman. And how today, because we continue to
be unconsciously affected by that scroll and continue to determine customs. But the Book
of Enterprises of Freedom, my Strong Book, where you check the price that
cost us that first generation of gypsy women break with social bites, we suffer
trigeo, quadruple, description and create new gypsy identities, new values, a
thing as simple as it is to show that studying as until you lose your
identity as a gypsy gave us blood, sweat and tear. I remember going
for the merchadin myself and many people criticized and looked at me badly. I
remember and in pants and condemn myself and put in sin three quarters of the
titan population and trousers front in our meshes that are put on. Now that
they all mark it, then everything that has symbolized a self- determining and
camera exercise on the xican woman is still a conviction. He' s still
a danger. He' s a Christ of danger. Two days ago,
I received attacks from angelic pastors, where she spoke to me as if I
had been a vulgar feminist. You' re a vulgar feminist Look at the
camentelable hour. Forgive ignorance is magnified and ignorance is very bad, ignorance of
things, of the identity of people, of the reality of things. And
of course, ignorance is very daring. And then, well, that is
why these contemptuous attitudes are born and between us it happens not only in the
Gypsy people, but in the Christian people in general. There is a lot
of ignorance, a lot, but a magnified ignorance and you have to get
out of that circle. Yes, yes, yes, yes, many times
my own father, my brother, tells me, but don' t write
anything, but let' s see. Forgive what my profession is, that
all revolutions began by an act of rebellion, especially the laws, and are
unjust or unconstitutional or contrary to human rights. They can' t be respected
as simple as that is legitimate is the but of course, that' s
easy to say, but you face it every day by saying woman and being
gypsy, it can complicate the truth. Yeah, well, thank you,
Jadeo. He' s been very brave. That forum has been very brave.
If I congratulate you, thank you very much. I really do.
Besides, you' re saying things of common sense and against humanity and besides,
things that both inside and outside. We have to make a bet a
day of this, of this kind of principles and, of course, the
theme of your book is also very interesting. I think we' ll be
able to enjoy it. You have to enjoy this book History of the Gypsy
people for Damis the survival of silenced heroes and they have certainly been silenced.
But not anymore, it' s not over anymore. You have to break
the silence and leave varga. It' s being built. That' s
it, so be out. The truth is that it has been a great
pleasure to talk to you, listen to you, listen to your statements and
listen to your heart, that this is what I like to hear better.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, well, I just don' t
know how to talk about another humanity that I' m honest with and always
go straight ahead, despite the consequences, so I always tell the truth,
not as doomed to tell the truth, but I wanted to thank you.
Thank you for giving me a hole in your beautiful show. Thank you size
visibility, the story that so concrete today in Mira and for doing this beautiful
and wonderful interview with a lot of pleasure and an honor. He' s
with you. Thank you very much, with pleasure, eager to greet you
on one of my visits to Seville and see us there that I have so
many friends, it will be a pleasure, an honor. Meet you in
person, of course I do. Of course I do. This year it
is planned that Go, for good, because until soon sephora, we speak
again and God Median will continue to travel on the train of life. Likewise,
yes, goodbye, many blessings. Bye bye Chaoy I have the decesity
of my soul of Ramba. I want to brown your man oy. I
want to stop the time locked in my room. I want to worship your
man you are, and I want to break the jar that I keep for
years and to branch it to your foot venerfomar your holy throne on my knees
and chorado proclaim that love venguadorta love before you show amara, venguadorata loves before
you, show him or I don' t want to ask you to walk
away, I want to see you pour out the alarm, I want to
see you a king, offer you a young man. To dedicate these words
to you only. Oy want to promise me the fraspo that keeps durandaño and
brother your smoke your throne holy dero say lady, proclaim you want to look
venguara mana amara before it shows me bites me, mom, before showing mom,
come guarate, mom before prostra? When they called my or beloved,
we love me we anterior plama ma venguadora, loves before prostra until the one
coming today closer than ever we invite you to the second edition of this Interdenominational
Congress aimed at the whole Body of Christ in Spain and Europe, which will
take place from 26th to 28th April in the Fira de Reus, Tarragona.
With us will be international speakers Mariano sen Igual, Benjamin Núñez and Marcos Brunet
All Walton wamado bi bu famed. For more information you can enter our wwwww
website. Until he comes point is either write to the six about, six,
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great call. Until he comes. Until he comes to her, he prunes
home before turia and ramado and everything or you will see the train of life,
an exciting journey along the routes of the heart, an unforgettable journey at
the pace of clan train so much or, ladies and gentlemen, we continue
on the train of life. Antonio, how are you, how are you
doing out there, in your town, where are you exactly good? I
' m in the palms of Grancanaria. I don' t know if I
' m heard perfect now. Yeah, all right, good day, thank
God. Yeah, a little frisket, but we' re going hot.
All right, all right. Antonio, Antonio, Antonio Carmona, also graduated
in Theology, Doctor in Divinities, magnificent writer. Where you know, we
were talking to your cousin, José Carmona, about the subject we are talking
about this morning about the whole Gypsy world and how you give him personality and
also historical contributions to make a social pedagogy of what is the history of the
Gypsy people in general and also the Gypsy world in Spain and their contributions and
their real needs. So here we are this morning talking about this, but
talking about your books. Precisely you have a book before the last that you
have published Freedom for the Forgotten, what you wanted to do with this book,
what you wanted to say what your message was. Well, this book
was my master' s thesis in the know yes, and what I intended
is to claim those forgotten ones that we have been the gypsies for a long
time and from the theological point of view, for I have tried to make
my pinitos, as it is usually said, because I have spoken of liberation
theology. It was practically a people oppressed by the society we lived in and
where we lived and had hopes. Our hope has been the word of God,
the living Christ, which has been transformed into our hearts and that the
Gypsy community is a community with great power, much, this is a church
with great potential and good, today we can see it in the Church of
Philadelphia and other Gypsy churches that have done extraordinary work in our country. Yeah,
yeah, that' s exactly what we' re talking about. But
you, speaking there of Christians, that is, of this world, of
the forgotten, referred to marginality, truth freedom part of marginality, of course,
from the point of view, well, what was a multidisciplinary study from
an anthropological, philosophical, theological, historical point of view and also to know
a little bit about the history of the Gypsy people and how we inserted ourselves
in Spain. Yeah, well, this book is also available. You can
get it on Amazon, right good. I think so, the book was
distributed by scaffolding. Yes, and now possibly another publisher will edit it.
I think it' ll be just a trust in this project. All right,
very good perfect for those interested. And let' s talk about this
last book, which is yours, before going on to give the review of
this book, The Bible, from its beginnings to the translations in Spanish,
spoken a little bit of you. Antonio Carmona, Heredia, graduated in Theology
from the Martín Lutter King University of Nincaragua, graduated in Pastoral Theology from the
Center for Biblical Research ciby also has a master' s degree in Theology from
the same Center of Studies Knows in Tenerife, Spain, an honorary doctorate in
Divinities and a bachelor' s degree in Theology from the Doctor wilds Hower Theological
Seminary in Chile. You also have a degree in theology from the Universidad del
Norte de España, seat of Burgos. Anyway, you' ve devoted yourself
to matter in depth for many years. Bible and Truth Theology. Well,
yeah, I really liked studying because I thought that one needed training. Well,
I think it' s important to train, because it' s important
to talk about the word, but with a formation, because if we don
' t have training then the problems come and I think we need to be
careful. And in addition, the Lord tells us in his word that we
have to prepare ourselves. No, and now the forties or fifties are over.
We are already in the year two thousand twenty- four and well,
I' ve been preparing for some time now some long years. But we
must prepare ourselves because we have to bear witness and reason for our faith.
That' s right and you' ve collaborated on different literary projects, such
as Clie' s Great Dictionary of the Psychopleric Bible, various journals of scientific
and academic kracter of Jornald and also, well, the book we' re
mentioning to you. Freedom for the forgotten, this gypsy theological perspective, which
was also published by Editorial Mundo Bíblico and your book Now The Bible, from
its beginnings to translations in Spanish, and you have also collaborated in You have
made contributions in the Bible that Clie has recently published on the patristic contributions of
the church' s parents. Also in this book you do a collaboration.
Yeah, I' ve worked on four final articles, mostly related to my
book. Talked a little bit about the text of Hebraico, the sextualient of
the Vulgate and yet another subject, very interesting Antonio The Bible since its origins.
This book has two distinct parts, as expressed in the subtitle, from
its beginnings to Spanish translations. In the first part of dedicating the yes in
the first pages, the first four chapters, and in them dealing with the
questions of the formation of the Old Testament and the role of the Greek version,
also of the Septuagint and the new Latin translation of the Old Testament by
Jerome from the Hebrew. And in these pages you make some very interesting contributions
towards a gross synthetic way, the Bible is a miracle book. If it
' s a miracle book, right, I haven' t heard it.
The Bible you believe that because of the avatars you have suffered, the Bible
is a miracle book. Let us have it the way we really have it
today. After so many centuries, the word of God in our hands is
a story of salvation that God has wanted for His people with an insert that
is to save His people from the sin of death and lead us to eternal
life. Of course, that' s what I mean. But the processes
that have occurred have passed. It has been unique and exclusive, that is,
how it is formed from oral tradition to the written form where we have
our Bibles today. This has been an incredible journey and, above all,
of many circumstances, because the formation of the old one has been tremendous,
how it has reached us the new one, how it has been reworking and
writing all the concepts and purposes that we have today in the Christian world.
And besides, it' s been something supernatural. I believe in the supernatural,
because God is in the supernatural and this has been the great miracle the
great miracle which is the word of God. We have already done it Carmen
Christ, but now he has come, as the Epistle said to the Hebrews
God, having spoken in many ways, in many ways, on these last
day, he has spoken to us in the son and son in the written
word we have today, and I believe that this is preeminent. Not before
a society where he does not believe, because the issue of postmodernity and relativism
has come a little. God' s Word serves constantly before a society that
needs God and many people ask me well what you are the people who carry
the book. We don' t just carry a book. We are living
our Christian life, as that book says, which is the word of God,
and I believe that is preeminent in the midst of us. Julio Antonio,
the second part of your book The Bible from its beginnings, that there
is a lot of material written to consult and enjoy in this work by Antonio
Carmona, Heredia until translations in Spanish languages. The second part, by contrast,
is much longer. It occupies two thirds of the book, from page
ninety- nine to three hundred and thirty- one and focuses on the history
of the Bible in Spain and first facing the arrival of Christianity, its texts,
also original to the Iberian peninsula and also translations into the language of Cervantes.
It' s all very important. How interesting is the story of the
Bible in Spain? You can advance us a little bit to make a mouth
so you can have books later. One of the first July chapters, I
did not say, were introductory chapters and then reached the heart of the book,
the epicenter of the book. We speak, for example, the text
of the old one, the text of the new one. We' re
talking about the sexualite, about her formation. We spoke practically the early Christians,
the patristic theme of how the theme of the Bible is developed, and
how they understood the subject of literature. Then we came practically to the Middle
Ages and their romanced and subsequent Bibles. And then we conclude we enter the
part that affects us most in the Christian evangelical world, which is the world
of how the Bible enters Spain. This is his first moment and then the
epoch of the sixteenth century unfolds, the humanism that enters Spain, from Juan
de Valdés, how all humanism and humanist concepts are formed, the development of
Cardinal Cisnero, the problem of the Bible, complutense polyglot, complutense, matritense,
well, all the development and then we reach the great ones. The
great problem of reform that also enters Spain. A lot of people say there
were no reforms. Yes, there have been reforms, because there are Christians
and there has been the blood of the martyrs who have persisted and among them,
for example, we can see the whole problem in the convent of the
Saint Jeromes to Casidoro de Reinas, to Citiano de Valera and others who leave
there and then exile. And there they write the Bible, the Bible that
we have, that we use the evangelical world, which is Queen Valera.
And then, then, I also talk about Francisco, Encina, Pérez de
Pineda, thus giving a space to some important issues that many people don'
t even know about. July, but I have left a very interesting footer
system so that people can expand, because, of course, to cover so
many centuries we would have to make seven or eight books as minimums to write
the history of the Bible, but I have left a lot of material so
that they can enjoy it and then I continue. In this part I speak
a chapter of the Bible, of the history of the Bible in America,
Christopher Columbus in the courtesy Pizarro, important corporators who carried the word all that
movement And of course, in that movement, here, in Spain, there
was a problem. The Bible was forbidden to read in Spanish, it is
not Latin, but in Spanish it was forbidden and the only one that had
circulated at that time was the queen, that of Casidoro de Reina and then
Cipiano de Valera. What it does is correct some things and it goes on
And then, already, well, I talk a little bit about biblical society,
the movement of biblical society back in the 20th century and what had happened
in Francoism and the own translations that they have made of the Bible, that
is, clearly, well, they are very interesting, especially in the 20th
century. At the end of the 20th and 21st centuries, translations of the
Bible have multiplied. There are all the most accurate discoloured versions, plus some
that connect to the oldest manuscripts as far as possible. That' s why
I told you that the Bible Anthony is I consider it the Miracle Book,
because with so many avatars and the Bible was also preserved a lot. Many
manuscripts of the Bible were preserved in the monasteries of friars, which preserved many
of the true documents. Of course, I have elaborated the topic of the
Middle Ages and there in Madrid, that there is an immense exhibition of manuscripts
in the Escorial. I' ve picked up a lot of things and from
other sides. Then of course, the relationship of knowledge. He went on
his own to convents, monasteries and then to universities. That is the educational
project that exists for the extension of knowledge. And there it will imply the
word of God the Bible. Of course, of course, the Bible was
not accessible to you, you say, of course only the clerical caste that
studied Latin in seminaries and churches, was practiced in Latin Masses and Latin Readings,
but of course there was no access to the people in the times.
That' s why success. Not only Luther in Germany, his first translation
into German, into popular German, but also in Spain, Queen’ s
cassiodor make the Bible accessible to the people who were genoese. Neither the Catholic
vulgate nor any of these bibles were of popular access. Good truth. There
has always been the problem since Emperor Charles V came to stay in Yuste,
because he cannot deal with the whole subject of the Luther. The problem that
arises is that Philip II, his son, also does not let any Bible
enter that is in Castellano, and less that of Protestants. Then not only
maquí, but in the new world, as burning bibles. And how there
is a whole contradiction to having Bibles in Castellano. It is only later when
there is an encyclical of the Pope, much later, centuries later that it
gives to the avenue to be able to translate. And in fact, in
the forties, when the Abbot begins, the famous nacar Bible Colunga, which
is a Bible that began to translate the Catholic Church into Spanish, comes out.
It is necessary to recognize and beyond the deutorocanonics that the many Colunga nacars
to the Jerusalem Bible. Several Catholic versions, the Bulgata are good translations of
the Bible with the additions of those of the deutorocanonians, evidently appearing also in
the Ajinta section. Right, the Torocanonians. Yes, yes, it appears
in the sectional. The problem is we have. It is very practical that
the problem of knowing Hebrew and Greek. A man makes a subcursor and does
it, but the problem is to turn it into Spanish. The Spanish knowledge,
the twists, the modisms, the form. There' s the question.
For example, we have translations into Spanish, such as modern ones,
such as the Pilgrim' s Bible or the new Spanish Bible or others that
are more up- to- date, for example, from the Episcopal Offer,
which are wonderful translations. But we also have, for example, the
Biblical Society of the Word that has come out new. I remember, for
example, from my friend Plutarconilla, from the Kingdom of ninety- five,
who updated things to say, language every twenty years is related, renewed and
translations are needed for the current world to be added to that kind of language.
Yes, in fact, I am part of the Board of Directors of
the Bible Society of Spain and well, we released the Bible of Queen Valera
two thousand twenty. That review by Bible writers in depth, where terms that
have been translated still take great care of the essences of grammar, because that
the Bibleists are very rigorous in that, which is a very very very,
very specialized plant on the subject, but terms like Jehovah, who was a
man, who is the key name or Jehovah popularly in the old versions,
the Lord says God then says that on a popular level. It is more
because you realize that when the name of Jehovah was mentioned, not many years
ago, people related us to Jehovah’ s Witnesses, telling them as if
we were all, because they did a very popular job, they went through
the floors, through the houses and although they were a minority that in their
time grew quite, it seemed they were the owners. On the contrary,
they adulterated the Bible text with the new tradition, the new translation into the
new world, because Jehovah’ s Witnesses. They originally used Queen Valera until
they had their own, their own translation. But, of course, Jehovah
’ s name, which is God’ s name, be it understood that
Jehovah already sees in Hebrew or the consonants who put on vowels to give them
phonetics. But the matter, for Jehovah, Jehovah, is as if he
had a bad press, the name of Jeova. Popularly not, but now,
in the new version of the two thousand and twenty of biblical society,
the term is God. The Lord said God said, and such that it
is popularly understood. And other terms and other grammatical adjustments, prayers much better
adapted to the grammatical mentality of contemporary, without losing the essences. And that
' s very important. Not well, I recently read a book by an
author named Thomas Rome. It is called The Invention of God, a wonderful
book where it is studied thoroughly the name of Iabé No and of course it
explains everything you have said about the subject of Jehovah’ s vowels at the
end of a mistake by a man who copied. Well, that' s
what happened. But the good thing about all these things, Julio, is
that we now have knowledge and we have to go back to the path.
Thus, correction is something precious, sometimes it hurts, but it produces its
effect. No, and when we begin to talk about the verb being in
Hebrew the famous Hayat, we understand what it is already sees and how,
for example, in the text, practically when it speaks of exodus that it
sees its people suffering that verb, it must be the almighty God of Abranda.
Isa reveals in that flame of fire in the middle of the sauce,
that that is very important. The great I am the great I am clear
because the Jews to God the unprovoked. It will separate the Adona and the
Lord. Okay. There are the names of God that appear in the scriptures
themselves, the Salai, the Adonai and many names, but just like Jave
and Jehovah. Of course to them it was the unprovoked because they, for
them, had the name of God sacred and did not want to profane it
in any way. To take the name of God in vain was at least
a somewhat legalistic view, but it was their own fear, or not to
say, or God' s terror that they had about these things. But
it is good that we can have the Bible from its beginnings to translations with
tongues, also in more recent versions. And that' s where he takes
a tour. Our dear friend and brother Antonio Carmona Heredia. I' ve
talked to you before about your previous book too. But how good that we
can his previous work, freedom for the forgotten that has to do with the
gypsy world, a vision, a gypsy theological perspective, also very interesting that
there is some point more than you. You' d stand out from your
book for our listeners to say good this book, let' s lay hands
on him to be groggy, it seems true. Yeah, I think so.
A hundred and two things, from the two books of mine, which
I think are a contribution because writing for what is already written. I'
m sure there are a lot of people better than me who write better than
me Julio, but honestly, for example, the subject of freedom for the
forgotten. It is important that many people know the Gypsy world, because they
do not know it if we live here in Spain. We' re Spanish,
but they don' t know much about our customs. In our form,
in this book, at least, I try to make the history of
the Gypsies known in a brief chapter and, above all, the weight of
what it brings in a society, racism and xenophobia. The problem that brings
us closer, as Manuel says, to elevating the other age, the one
in front of me suffering and I believe that my people have suffered many,
many racisms and many impediments so that they can reach many places and the other
book. Yes, I would like to tell you that there is a thread
in the book of the Bible and the drivers that you have to look deeply
at this text of this book, because it has cost me a lot to
gather so much data, but it is important with that one that there is
a thread. The word of God remains forever and comes to pass from the
avatars with a statement that is salvation. It is a story of salvation,
and that Bible has cost a lot of blood, a lot of sweat,
a lot of tears, and today many people do not value it. And
it is important that we value the word of God. I was recently preaching
at a place I was invited to and a brother was saying to see.
Hey, you sent people up when you were gonna talk about the word.
Of course, if God is present, if he had King Oes, there
was another a president of the state, you would not rise as he passed
by, for we will rise to give glory to the Lord. What I
have tried with this book is to give the glory to the Lord knowing it
is not the story and the avatars that have happened so that we have that
precious book, which is the Bible, the word of God, because the
truth is that I believe that many of our listeners are going to say we
want to take advantage of this book, get it from the platform of amazon.
Almost everything can be achieved there. And if you forgive July this book,
you can do it with the last one that has been published alone to
Fide, if you can do it on the website is the FIDE editorial cefes
Solafide. Yes, sir, it' s very intense. Can you ask
that it is in order to be able to ask perfect only fi of the
publisher only fide perfect, perfect, even more direct and the publisher of angelican
is Yes? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? That' s great, that
' s great? Well, Antonio, I really appreciate your appearance. I
congratulate you on these two books, which are very interesting contributions, One from
the theological perspective, also gypsy and also from society regarding that important minority in
the Gypsy world. But then also this book of the Bible, this from
its origins to the most recent translations, which we are always interested in the
Bible. We are the people of the book. The Bible is the master
' s book, the master' s book of life. He has stories,
has stories, has poetry, has biographical records about the person of Jesus
has epistolary letters from the apostles, especially from the apostle Paul. And then
he has books also the biblical apocalyptic, such as the book of Daniel,
the book of Revelation, very important that have a connection after seven hundred years
later history. They have a prophetic connection in very important parts that authenticate the
prophetic message of the apostles. Anyway, it' s for when you find
out that the Bible is God' s book and that it' s like
discovering the, say, the secret of life. The great secrets of life
are revealed in the Bible. So, well, then, let' s
get rid of this book of our friend and dear brother Antonio Carmona. Heredia.
The Bible from its origins to the most recent translations. Antonio, my
dear friend, I send you a very affectionate hug. Thank you so much
for inviting me to July and the second time. I thank you so much
for being able to talk about my books and for being able to collaborate with
you, which has been a pleasure and an honor to be here on your
show. Of course, for me, I' ll send you a hug
forever. Until always I miss the train of life, an exciting journey along
the routes of the heart, an unforgettable trip at the pace of trem the
evangelical churches a place of peace and friendship. You can freely attend the nearest
evangelical church in your neighborhood or your population. You' ll be very welcome.