1 00:00:26,519 --> 00:00:31,519 Thank you Stephen for joining me. I can't wait to speak to you about 2 00:00:31,519 --> 00:00:34,960 your new book. I've been talking to a lot of people about it over 3 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:39,359 the last couple of days, especially who are also really excited about it as 4 00:00:39,359 --> 00:00:43,600 well. It's really interesting. Before we speak about that, I just wondered 5 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:49,240 if I could get, like know more about you and how you got where 6 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:53,520 you are now, including your roles within the police force as well. Yeah. 7 00:00:53,799 --> 00:00:55,439 Well, first off, thanks for having me on, Kerry. I 8 00:00:55,439 --> 00:01:00,479 really appreciate that. So you my life story so long long time ago, 9 00:01:00,679 --> 00:01:03,159 like probably before you were born. I'm so open now. Yeah. I 10 00:01:03,239 --> 00:01:11,480 joined the police in nineteen ninety one as a youngster and I worked in southeast 11 00:01:11,519 --> 00:01:15,680 London, and I quickly realized that what I really enjoyed doing was arresting people. 12 00:01:17,079 --> 00:01:21,400 I like putting, I like going after bad people. So that kind 13 00:01:21,439 --> 00:01:23,799 of dragged me down being a detective because if you want to go after bad 14 00:01:23,799 --> 00:01:27,719 people, you become a detective. So I started doing that. That would 15 00:01:27,719 --> 00:01:34,319 have been around two thousand, about two thousand and then in two thousand and 16 00:01:34,519 --> 00:01:38,120 two I went to the anti terrorist branch that dealt with terrorists for a few 17 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:42,640 years, got promoted and went back to a local police station in East London, 18 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:48,680 that's Tower Hamlets, so I covered Whitechapel, which is obviously relevant to 19 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,760 chat The Ripper. Did that for a few years, and then in two 20 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:56,280 thousand and nine I went to a murder team and never left. I loved 21 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,840 it. I just enjoyed investigating murders. It was like and that sounds, 22 00:02:00,319 --> 00:02:04,200 but I found my calling. I really really enjoyed it, and I got 23 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:08,080 promoted there from DS to D and then I retired from the police in twenty 24 00:02:08,159 --> 00:02:16,080 twenty one, and my life has taken a direction I wasn't expecting. I 25 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:20,960 wrote a book, my first book, and originally i'd written that in order 26 00:02:21,039 --> 00:02:25,240 to support business, going into companies and training them around skills that you would 27 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:30,759 use in murder investigation. But then I'm dragging me down a route I never 28 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:35,599 expected. And now kind of I'm immersed in true crime and going to crime 29 00:02:35,719 --> 00:02:42,879 con and I do lots of TV things like going on to true crime documentaries 30 00:02:42,879 --> 00:02:46,599 and talking about police procedure, etc. I've got an exciting project coming up, 31 00:02:46,599 --> 00:02:51,240 but I can't talk too much about next year, which will involve me 32 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,800 on the screen a lot more. Yeah, I'm I'm just going with the 33 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,120 flow. And then my second book came out a couple of weeks ago, 34 00:02:58,319 --> 00:03:02,520 about Jack the Ripper, and I'm just enjoying it because that's where I actually 35 00:03:02,879 --> 00:03:06,680 first met you. Obviously I was aware of some of the work you did 36 00:03:06,719 --> 00:03:10,759 before, but I would I come and see your your panel work at crime 37 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:16,240 Com and watch the COVID and domestic violence talk. I actually spoke to you 38 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:25,400 afterwards. Yeah yeah, yeah, so yeah, So before this was like 39 00:03:25,479 --> 00:03:29,360 lots of humble beginnings, isn't it. So I did a little bit of 40 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:34,719 reading and you as accountant before this, So did you ever? Is that 41 00:03:34,759 --> 00:03:37,199 what you wanted to do? Did you know that you wanted to be a 42 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,360 police officer or is it something that, like the rest of your story has 43 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:44,280 just taking all these just going with the flow and seeing where it took you. 44 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:50,199 Is that what happened? Did I did accountancy at school. I did 45 00:03:50,199 --> 00:03:54,039 a level accountcy and I quite enjoyed it. And I come from a sort 46 00:03:54,039 --> 00:04:00,840 of background that you don't go to university. So for me from my from 47 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,039 my background, someone going into account and see you thinking all money, that 48 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:08,879 that will be good. And dad was a bus driver. I'm worked in 49 00:04:09,039 --> 00:04:13,439 bakers and we didn't come from money, so I thought, I'll go be 50 00:04:13,439 --> 00:04:17,639 an accountant. But money doesn't motivate me at all. So when I was 51 00:04:17,639 --> 00:04:20,839 there, I was just so bored. I was so bored doing it like 52 00:04:21,319 --> 00:04:25,759 it was. It was quite was it in the late eighties, early nineties, 53 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,319 and most of it wasn't on computer. It was in books. I 54 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:30,600 spent most of my time trying to work out why two columns didn't add up, 55 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,040 and it's like mine numbing. But my offices were right in the back 56 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:38,360 of the old bailey, and I used to see the comings and goings from 57 00:04:38,399 --> 00:04:42,959 the court. It was like we literally overlooked where the prison vans would come 58 00:04:43,079 --> 00:04:46,480 whizzing in with blue lights and sirens. And when you sat there all day, 59 00:04:46,519 --> 00:04:48,759 bored out your brain and you see when these people going around with his 60 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:53,560 blue lights and sirens, and it all looks really exciting. I was saying, 61 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:57,480 God, that's that looks like a better life than than what I'm doing. 62 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,160 And I enjoyed watching as a program at a time called the b or 63 00:05:00,319 --> 00:05:03,480 I'm watching that, and I thought, you know what, And it was 64 00:05:03,519 --> 00:05:10,319 weird because I mean, my family and everything more likely to go to prison 65 00:05:10,399 --> 00:05:14,920 than being the police. I had cousins and to all sorts of stuff. 66 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:16,839 So I was definitely the first person. I think I'm the first person in 67 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:20,519 my state that I'm the first person in my family to join the police. 68 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,839 But once I did it, I never looked back. I loved it. 69 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,439 It was like the better best decision I've been made. And I say, 70 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,120 I'm not motiv by money. So at the end of my life and I 71 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:31,399 look back and I think, right, I could have had a few noughts 72 00:05:31,439 --> 00:05:34,480 maybe in my bank account, or I can look back and think about all 73 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:38,319 the things I've done, and to me, that's more important. The amazing 74 00:05:38,319 --> 00:05:43,839 experiences you've had so far, fantastic opportunities and stuff. And so when we 75 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:48,279 talk about your journey and your career as a police officer and building up towards 76 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:53,439 that, is there anything Because when we go forward and we talk a little 77 00:05:53,439 --> 00:05:57,480 bit about the book, a lot of it is about like a comparison. 78 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:00,759 There was a there's a narrative in the story of comparison of the investigation back 79 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:04,000 then and how we do things or how the police force does things now. 80 00:06:04,519 --> 00:06:09,879 Did you see changes in your time that you think, how did we cope 81 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:15,720 without that? Before? Or any kind of adaptations and processes that kind of 82 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:20,040 really support investigations. Now, yeah, hugely so. I mean when I 83 00:06:20,079 --> 00:06:25,319 first started, we didn't we didn't use computers. They didn't they didn't exist 84 00:06:25,319 --> 00:06:29,759 within the police force. The only computers that we had were when they weren't 85 00:06:29,759 --> 00:06:31,439 really computers as such. So you know, when the calls came in nine 86 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:36,120 nine nine calls and whatever, it was called a CAD system and that was 87 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:40,279 kind of like a computer and that was literally the only one then you could 88 00:06:40,319 --> 00:06:45,120 do like vehicle checks and name checks and stuff on it. And then they 89 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,639 started so every every crime report would get put on paper. And then they 90 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:55,920 started bringing in computerized reports around ninety four ninety five something like that, So 91 00:06:55,959 --> 00:06:59,519 that massively changed things. It made it a first off, you don't we 92 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:01,680 don't like it. I just I like doing things on paper. But so, 93 00:07:02,199 --> 00:07:05,639 for instance, if I was investigating a crime now and with computers, 94 00:07:05,879 --> 00:07:11,879 I've got so much information, more information I can search on where people stopped, 95 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,079 where they were searched by police, crimes that reported, et cetera, 96 00:07:15,079 --> 00:07:17,399 et cetera, and all that was very very difficult to do back then. 97 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:23,319 So in terms of the intelligence, we had these cards with a photograph on 98 00:07:23,639 --> 00:07:27,240 and it was someone's job just to write on these cards when someone was stopped 99 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,319 and searched and intelligence on them. So you can imagine if to search that 100 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,759 you'd have to physically go to the room, go through all these files, 101 00:07:33,879 --> 00:07:36,800 be lucky that. First of you gotta be lucky that someone's actually written it 102 00:07:36,839 --> 00:07:40,720 down. Then you've got to be lucky enough to find it. Whereas now 103 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:45,279 the database is intelligence databases you can search are brilliant. So but what that 104 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,079 does mean is detectives spend a lot of time sitting on their backside compared to 105 00:07:48,199 --> 00:07:53,720 before because they're in front of computers and stuff. So computers have massively changed 106 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:59,199 things. DNA wasn't about when I first joined. I mean it was it 107 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:03,279 was about, but it wasn't really regularly used and we slowly started to get 108 00:08:03,279 --> 00:08:09,240 things through for burglaries and stuff. To now it's obviously some major part of 109 00:08:09,439 --> 00:08:16,120 crime investigations. Phones. Telephones were just like I mean, back then, 110 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:20,199 it might have been like the yuppy with like a big huge brick phone that 111 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:24,959 they wander around with. So people didn't have telephones. But now every single 112 00:08:24,959 --> 00:08:30,759 person's got one. That's massively changed now we'll do investigations. So the technology 113 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:35,840 has changed a lot, but the actual detective work and being a police So 114 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:39,679 being a detective right on, the most important thing about being a detective is 115 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:45,200 communication, and it's about how you get information from people, how you come 116 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,519 across the people and without getting their backs up, and you have to you 117 00:08:48,519 --> 00:08:50,320 have to be able to talk to people. You have to be able to 118 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:52,399 get information out of people. Sometimes they don't want to talk to you. 119 00:08:54,279 --> 00:08:56,600 Sometimes they want to talk to you, but they don't know, like it's 120 00:08:56,639 --> 00:09:00,440 in their brain and you've got to get it out. So commut unication. 121 00:09:00,759 --> 00:09:05,360 And so that wouldn't be any different to back in eighteen eighty eight with the 122 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:07,600 investigation into Jack the Ripper, So when I joined the police to now, 123 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:13,399 so that that hasn't changed, and the basic skills of being a police officer 124 00:09:13,399 --> 00:09:18,120 hasn't changed. It's just the technology around it, okay. And when you 125 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:26,879 talk about keeping how people keep a document interactions and investigations. When we look 126 00:09:26,919 --> 00:09:31,480 back at cold cases, even as backers like forty years ago, a lot 127 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:33,759 of the ones that are unsolved, it's really difficult to move forward with those. 128 00:09:35,039 --> 00:09:39,879 In particular, I did some work a little while ago about Bella who 129 00:09:41,039 --> 00:09:46,879 was an unsolved case over Birmingham, who was found inside of a tree inside 130 00:09:46,879 --> 00:09:48,879 of Hagley Woods, and there was so much media coverage with it, but 131 00:09:48,879 --> 00:09:54,240 there was not a lot of documentation most because of the war and stuff. 132 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:58,519 So going forward and trying to find out who people are victims and those that 133 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,919 cause the problems, the murderers and stuff, it's really hard to move forward 134 00:10:03,279 --> 00:10:07,399 now, isn't it? Because of what kind of when you looked back at 135 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:09,519 your research, when you were doing your research with your book, how did 136 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:13,440 you overcome that? How did you move forward with that? And could you 137 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:22,120 I love that. So my book isn't about trying to find new information. 138 00:10:22,279 --> 00:10:26,679 That's that wasn't what I was trying to do. It was my modern day 139 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:31,279 approach and mindset to the information is already there, and there has been some 140 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:39,480 fantastic work done by researchers around the Ripper and everything from the crimes themselves and 141 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:45,720 the victims and scenes the area. So I had the luxury of being able 142 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:50,039 to go to two, three, four books where all that information was there, 143 00:10:50,039 --> 00:10:52,399 all that work's already been done, so that I wasn't I wasn't trying 144 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:56,960 to find new stuff. I was just trying to bring a modern detective mindset 145 00:10:58,039 --> 00:11:01,759 to what's already there. So I cheated. Basically, someone had already done 146 00:11:01,759 --> 00:11:05,000 it for me. I love that, and I think, you know, 147 00:11:05,399 --> 00:11:11,039 students do that all the time, the university students. We do that all 148 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:16,679 the time. So why Jack the Ripper? Why why him? Why did 149 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:24,919 you choose his case? So where retired? I've been stumbling around doing various 150 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,600 things. I started a YouTube channel and it's still there. And when I 151 00:11:28,639 --> 00:11:33,240 first started doing it, I did it with a view too, could could 152 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:35,679 I make something of this? And it got a little bit of traction and 153 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,799 had a few thousand followers of what they call subscribers, and a lot of 154 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:46,279 them were American, and they kept asking me about Jack the Ripper. It's 155 00:11:46,279 --> 00:11:50,480 probably as popular over there as is over here. So I thought I'd have 156 00:11:50,519 --> 00:11:54,559 to do some work, and I do some. I look into it and 157 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:56,840 I realized that actually I didn't really know an awful lot about it. I 158 00:11:56,879 --> 00:12:01,399 knew I knew the area that it was in. I knew it was in 159 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,039 Whitechapel. I knew he killed some women. It was said to be prostitutes. 160 00:12:05,519 --> 00:12:07,840 I didn't even know how many had actually killed everyone I really know at 161 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,799 about it. But when I started digging into it, there was one thing 162 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:16,480 that jumped out of me that really sort of really dragged me into it and 163 00:12:16,519 --> 00:12:20,600 really piqued my interest, and that was the lead investigator was a man by 164 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:26,240 the name of Frederick Aberline. And when I started looking at him and his 165 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:31,840 background as mirrored each Our careers mirrored each other so much so. For instance, 166 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:35,759 so earlier on I said, so my career, I was on the 167 00:12:35,759 --> 00:12:39,879 Anceros branch dealing with terrorists. Then I went to Whitechapel and then I did 168 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:43,960 murders, and that was the same path he had. So he investigated terrorists, 169 00:12:43,039 --> 00:12:48,360 so where mine was mostly Islamists, his was Feenie and Irish terrorists. 170 00:12:48,759 --> 00:12:54,000 Then he went to back then it was called Whitechapel h Division. For me 171 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:56,759 it was called Tower Hamlet's but the same different name. It changed, it's 172 00:12:56,759 --> 00:13:00,440 the same area. And then he went to Scotland Old and Best to getting 173 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,919 murders, and that's what I did, and that naturally led me on to 174 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:07,519 start to think, right, well, so our careers have mirrored each other 175 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:11,440 so much, what would I do differently if I were in this position, 176 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:16,480 and I was presented with those murders, with the problems that he had to 177 00:13:16,639 --> 00:13:18,399 overcome. How would I do it? How would I do it differently? 178 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:24,480 And that that's what really led me to write in the book, and I've 179 00:13:24,519 --> 00:13:28,679 just found it a fascinating I write about this in the I think even in 180 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,399 the introduction to the book about it being a journey and it's a journey, 181 00:13:31,399 --> 00:13:35,759 that there was a journey for me. And unless you unless you know that 182 00:13:35,879 --> 00:13:39,720 the Ripper inside out, which obviously some people do, but I wasn't. 183 00:13:39,759 --> 00:13:43,360 I wasn't writing the book for them. I was writing the book for people 184 00:13:43,399 --> 00:13:46,399 that didn't were like me, that didn't know all about all the crimes and 185 00:13:46,399 --> 00:13:50,840 the victims and everything. So for me, it was a journey. I'd 186 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:56,879 like to think for most readers that aren't sort of sort of well well into 187 00:13:56,159 --> 00:14:01,960 the Ripper, it'll be a journey for them, and also as well as 188 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:05,159 the book is a journey for me and the journey for the reader, but 189 00:14:05,279 --> 00:14:07,879 what you see is the journey of the people involved in it as well. 190 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:13,960 So the police themselves, they were on a journey from how they dealt with 191 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:18,840 the first murders to where they got to and you see their journey of improvement, 192 00:14:18,879 --> 00:14:22,759 of learning, of realizing they're making mistakes and putting them right the next 193 00:14:22,759 --> 00:14:26,399 time. So you see that journey. But you also see the journey of 194 00:14:26,399 --> 00:14:31,240 the killer. You see Jack the Ripper's journey through his murders and the escalation 195 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:35,960 and the violence. And because because of the because of what's driving it, 196 00:14:35,039 --> 00:14:39,879 because it's being driven by emotion, is being driven by a desire and then 197 00:14:39,919 --> 00:14:43,679 a desire. He keeps pushing himself and you see and you witness that. 198 00:14:43,799 --> 00:14:48,000 So so the whole book is a journey. It's a journey for all of 199 00:14:48,039 --> 00:14:50,799 us, us writer as the readers, and they're in it for me. 200 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,759 That's what that's what the book is about. It's a journey. One of 201 00:14:54,759 --> 00:14:58,840 the things that I really enjoy the most is psychology, and there's and there's 202 00:14:58,879 --> 00:15:01,159 elements of this in the book. So when you talk about the emotional drivers 203 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,759 that you talk about that because why people kill? Why do people? And 204 00:15:07,399 --> 00:15:11,600 through your writing as well as for your police work, what have you? 205 00:15:11,919 --> 00:15:15,399 What have you? What are your kind of conclusions or your faults on that? 206 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:18,279 So when I did when I write my first book, like I said 207 00:15:18,279 --> 00:15:20,840 at the beginning, I was writing it for a business, but it kind 208 00:15:20,919 --> 00:15:26,200 of what I was writing, it just wasn't working. So I was trying 209 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:28,120 to say that this is how murders investigated and this is how it can help 210 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:33,080 your business, and it was trying to be two different things. So I 211 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:37,320 decided I would concentrate on how murders investigated. But then it was like, 212 00:15:37,399 --> 00:15:39,919 well, who's going to who wants to know about that? Who's who's interested 213 00:15:39,919 --> 00:15:43,480 in that? True crime fans? So I went to a couple of true 214 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:48,960 crime Facebook groups, one here and one in the States, and I've introduced 215 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:54,159 myself and I said it would anybody kindly take part in this survey? And 216 00:15:54,159 --> 00:15:58,000 I've got such a huge response. I've got six hundred and fifty I think 217 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:02,960 responses, And the number one question, without a doubt was why the people 218 00:16:03,039 --> 00:16:04,679 killed? So I thought, well, I'm going to have to answer that, 219 00:16:04,759 --> 00:16:08,440 and we have to think about that, not in a an obvious I 220 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,159 mean, I don't with so many murders and you think, you know, 221 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:15,320 you think, well you kind of get an understanding of why people kill. 222 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,679 But I thought that the way my brain work is quite quite logical, and 223 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:22,440 I think, right, is there a pattern? Is this something within the 224 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:30,039 people committed murders that is beyond what we love and jealousy and revenge. Is 225 00:16:30,039 --> 00:16:32,960 this something deeper than that? Is this something? Is there some kind of 226 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,320 pattern? And then I said this as I'm doing that, And it took 227 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:38,879 me a while and going through thinking about the murders of investigated, looking at 228 00:16:38,919 --> 00:16:42,720 other murders, and it just suddenly hit me. It was like what what 229 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:48,919 what I'm doing? And what everyone does is we try and we look at 230 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,600 murder as if it's something different, as if it's as if it's not so 231 00:16:52,159 --> 00:16:57,080 as human beings, we were motivated to act by one of three things. 232 00:16:57,799 --> 00:17:02,720 By what we're feeling, what we want to feel, and the benefit we're 233 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,119 going to get from it. And that if I talk about exercise, so 234 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:07,960 if you go to the gym, you're going to do it because of how 235 00:17:07,039 --> 00:17:11,440 you're feeling. You feel, you're feeling the lethargic, you're feeling ugly, 236 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,640 whatever it is you feel. I want to go to the gym because of 237 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,680 how I feel. Or I want to go to the gym because actually it 238 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:19,920 makes me feel good, it gives me a bus, I get a rushing 239 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:23,039 dolphins, whatever it is, Or I want to go because I I want 240 00:17:23,079 --> 00:17:26,240 to I want to lose weight, or I want to sleep better or want 241 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:30,240 to live longer. So whatever reason you're going to the gym, you're doing 242 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,200 it for one of those three reasons. I think what we do is we 243 00:17:33,279 --> 00:17:41,279 try it and we separate murderers if it's something completely different. Why do people 244 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:45,480 choose to murder? Somebody choose to kill, Well, they're doing it for 245 00:17:45,559 --> 00:17:48,440 exactly the same reason. They're doing it because of what they feel inside. 246 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:52,720 So when you're talking about revenge and jealousy and anger and fear, people kill 247 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:56,640 out of that, it's because they're being driven by what they're feeling inside. 248 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:02,799 Or if they kill out of a sense of power or control or sexual gratification 249 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,759 or enjoyment, they're doing it because they want to feel something. Or if 250 00:18:06,799 --> 00:18:11,519 it's robbery or gang violence where they're about turf wars and all this sort of 251 00:18:11,599 --> 00:18:14,880 thing, or terrorism, they're killing because of the game they're going to get 252 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,599 from it. And it was kind of a light bulb moment. It's like, 253 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,079 well, actually, every murder you can think of, apart from like 254 00:18:22,039 --> 00:18:26,359 people that are properly meant toly ill, and they're killing because they're hearing voices 255 00:18:26,519 --> 00:18:30,039 or their delusion or something. You can't really classify that the same. But 256 00:18:30,079 --> 00:18:34,680 where people are of the same sound mind and they choosing to do something, 257 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:38,960 whatever murder you come up with, whatever motive you come up with, it 258 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,920 will it will fall into one of those three categories. And I say it 259 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:48,240 was like a light bulb moment for me. And I'm not an academic, 260 00:18:48,279 --> 00:18:53,599 and other people may disagree, but I'm yectifying somebody or a murder that doesn't 261 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:59,759 fit in with one of those three things. And once I realize that it 262 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,640 was just everything else has become much more simple. So when I look at 263 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:07,759 the murder now, so I can I can understand and show I didn't know 264 00:19:07,799 --> 00:19:11,319 that when I was investigate murders really, but but you kind of know that 265 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:19,359 you haven't labeled it. Do you think so when it comes to understanding behavior, 266 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,920 as humans, we try and understand behavior, do you think that we 267 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:30,799 create in trying to understand why someone does hurt other people do things that are 268 00:19:30,839 --> 00:19:36,799 outside of our own being, our own ability to do something. Do you 269 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:41,880 do you think that that we create a demographic that kind of can create a 270 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:45,119 bias to who actually could be the person that's doing it. So, for 271 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:49,759 example, if someone created murders someone, then clearly that they're insane or there 272 00:19:49,839 --> 00:19:55,079 is something seriously wrong with them that is apparent to us when we look look 273 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:57,680 at them. They don't look like a murderer. So do you think that 274 00:19:57,759 --> 00:20:03,599 sometimes people can fall out for through the cracks because they don't fit that. 275 00:20:03,599 --> 00:20:07,359 Especially when it comes to women, people perceive women as being maternal. So 276 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:11,640 even with the Jack the Ripper murder, there's that a sumption. We don't 277 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,680 know who he is or the fact that he's he. He had to be 278 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:21,400 someone whoever this was, had to be really strong to be able to witnesses 279 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:25,720 saw saw him. So I think we can get away from it potentially being 280 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:30,920 a woman because he was seeing with the victims. So it's a really interesting 281 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:37,039 point what you're making. And if I related back to the book, they 282 00:20:37,039 --> 00:20:41,359 didn't catch Jack the Ripper. We know that it's a fact, and what 283 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:47,240 I think one of the issues they had was that they failed to recognize. 284 00:20:47,559 --> 00:20:51,559 So if we talk about those three categories categories of murder, I called them 285 00:20:51,599 --> 00:20:53,839 push of emotion, pull of emotion, and gain. So push of emotion 286 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:59,440 is where someone kills as a result of triggered emotion. So a triggered emotion, 287 00:20:59,599 --> 00:21:03,039 something happened that triggers something inside of someone. It's a jealousy, anger, 288 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:10,839 sense of revenge, whatever it is. And people back then completely got 289 00:21:10,839 --> 00:21:15,200 that. They've completely understood why someone would kill because they're angry, because they're 290 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,519 jealous or whatever. They've got that completely. And the game one, they 291 00:21:18,559 --> 00:21:23,319 completely got and understood why someone would kill because of a robbery, because they 292 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,920 were robbing someone of their money, whatever it is. They completely got that. 293 00:21:26,319 --> 00:21:30,759 But what they what they really really failed to recognize was that that middle 294 00:21:30,799 --> 00:21:36,880 one, the pull of emotion, where someone someone's killing someone, someone's hurting 295 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:41,799 someone in order to experience an emotion, because they couldn't because they didn't recognize 296 00:21:41,799 --> 00:21:45,319 that, they didn't understand that. What they what they were then doing, 297 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:49,359 they were labeling Jack the Ripper as a lunatic and they got dragged down into 298 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:56,039 lines of inquiry where they're going into this is their words, not lunatic asylums. 299 00:21:56,039 --> 00:22:00,160 That's what they call about that. So they go into lunatic asylums and 300 00:21:59,799 --> 00:22:03,200 they and they're obsessing over people that they can't they can't be normal, can 301 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:07,759 you no normal person I'm doing Bunny is now. You can't see it. 302 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:14,680 But no normal person would brutally kill someone in this way, remove body parts, 303 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:19,720 take them away with and commit inflick wounds that went beyond the need to 304 00:22:19,799 --> 00:22:22,720 kill. That can't be normal. That person must be mad. They must 305 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,319 be mad, They must be insane. But what we know, we know 306 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:30,240 better now, don't we. When you when you look at the last one, 307 00:22:30,279 --> 00:22:33,440 the Long Island, I can't they give them the name of it. 308 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,160 I never remember these names. But the last one is in the news in 309 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:42,279 America. Completely normal, fella, completely on the face of it, respectable, 310 00:22:42,279 --> 00:22:45,440 et cetera. I mean, when we when we look at our serial 311 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,839 killers in this country, they're not running around throfting at the mouth, aren't 312 00:22:48,839 --> 00:22:53,839 they They're just they're just normal. Twenty years ago. It doesn't work the 313 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:59,000 podcast, does it. But But but the perceptions people that are around them 314 00:22:59,039 --> 00:23:03,400 is that they're just they're just more people. So we know that now, 315 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:07,160 But back then, what you're talking about is exactly what they did. They 316 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:11,279 were, they were, they were They were making assumptions of the type of 317 00:23:11,279 --> 00:23:15,960 person that must be committing these crimes. And if you do that, you're 318 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,359 looking in the wrong place, aren't you. You're looking for the wrong person, 319 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:23,920 and you're likely to to overlook someone obvious because they don't fit your your 320 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:29,519 stereotype of what this kind of murders murderer should be. So I think what 321 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,440 you say is acsolutely right. It's a really good point, and it's something 322 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:37,359 that I think we're better at now than certainly they were back then. Okay, 323 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,759 thank you. So when we look at the story of Jack the Ripper, 324 00:23:41,079 --> 00:23:45,400 there is there anything? For example, I've always been aware aware of 325 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,440 five women that were murdered, but there is evidence or there's thoughts that there 326 00:23:49,519 --> 00:23:53,079 was more. Is that something that surprised you? And how do you what 327 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:57,039 are your thoughts? Do you think there's more than five? So for me 328 00:23:57,079 --> 00:24:00,359 that when when I wrote a book, that the main the main part of 329 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:07,079 the book is what happened in how was with the murder investigating in eighteen eighty 330 00:24:07,079 --> 00:24:11,720 eight and how how does that differ to how it be investigated today? So 331 00:24:11,759 --> 00:24:14,799 that's the main thrust of the book. So the difference between how we we 332 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,359 do it now and how were doing that. But during that what I've looked 333 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,279 to do is answer three questions, and one of them is why, why 334 00:24:22,279 --> 00:24:25,200 did he do it? What was motivating him? I think if I think 335 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:29,279 you have a clue from what I've been talking about. The other one was 336 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,880 which crime did he commit? Because there is that there is disagreement, and 337 00:24:33,599 --> 00:24:40,200 there's different views on the murders he committed, and and can I add anything 338 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,319 to who he would be? So why did he do it? What did 339 00:24:42,319 --> 00:24:45,200 he do? And who was he? So there are the three questions I 340 00:24:45,279 --> 00:24:49,799 tried to answer. So when I look at the crimes, the White Chapel 341 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:56,920 murders were eleven. There are eleven murders, all investigated in one file called 342 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:02,960 the White Chapel Murders, and the they were all investigated as if they could 343 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,319 be linked, they all could be by the same person. They weren't. 344 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:10,200 There was no way that Jack the Ripper committed all eleven of those murders. 345 00:25:10,799 --> 00:25:18,240 It is known as committing five and it gets known as described as the canonical 346 00:25:18,279 --> 00:25:22,960 five is what people call it. Now. I when I was everything I 347 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,000 did in this book, what I try to do is block out everything, 348 00:25:26,279 --> 00:25:30,440 all the theories, all the conjecture, all the ideas that people have had 349 00:25:30,599 --> 00:25:34,680 in the past, and included those five murders. So I didn't come into 350 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,319 it thinking, oh, he's committed five. I'll look at the other six 351 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:45,880 it was at eleven and make and try and bring a modern perspective to can 352 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,680 we say which ones it was likely to have committed? So what I do 353 00:25:49,799 --> 00:25:55,480 is I use a method known as similar fact evidence, And what that is 354 00:25:55,599 --> 00:26:03,079 you look for unusual characteristics within a crow I am that are common with with 355 00:26:03,319 --> 00:26:07,440 with at least at least two of them. So between the crimes a characteristic 356 00:26:07,519 --> 00:26:12,240 that isn't so, for instance, if you were talking about someone committing robberies, 357 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:18,000 the fact someone uses a knife, it is not is not unusual, 358 00:26:18,039 --> 00:26:21,240 it's it's common. So if you've got robbery over here with someone whousing knife 359 00:26:21,279 --> 00:26:23,279 and a robbery over here someone using knife, you can't say they're connected. 360 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,839 But if, for instance, during the robberies they stabbed the person in the 361 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,079 left buttock and they did that over and they did it over there, well 362 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:37,400 that could be used as a commonality and it's unusual that you could link the 363 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:38,880 two. Then if you add another one, so for instance, that they 364 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:44,160 were using specific words when they were doing the robbery, again you can strengthen 365 00:26:44,279 --> 00:26:48,279 the idea that they're linked. So I use that same basis for the crimes 366 00:26:48,319 --> 00:26:52,319 and what was going on, what was unusual in them, how do they 367 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:56,000 link? And by doing that, I personally have come up with a different 368 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:03,000 set of victims than these commonly accepted Okay, could you talk a lot about 369 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,720 all that. There's lots of different characters that you speak about in the book, 370 00:27:06,799 --> 00:27:11,559 and you humanize them. What they all have their own their own persona 371 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,680 comes through in the way that you change a dialect, the way they speak, 372 00:27:14,839 --> 00:27:18,200 and you kind of try and reflect how they were affected as well from 373 00:27:18,279 --> 00:27:23,359 the murders that took place. One of the main characters, the main main 374 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:29,119 person that was interested in the way that you presented the way that he worked, 375 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,240 was Ablaine. Could you tell me more about the part he played in 376 00:27:33,319 --> 00:27:37,359 particular? What I found quite interesting is the reluctance to work with the media 377 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:42,799 and stuff like that. What are your thoughts And yeah, he was the 378 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:48,319 lead investigator for you got taken off of it tools again. But certainly the 379 00:27:48,759 --> 00:27:52,200 sort of the main murders that were most of us all were. He was 380 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:57,319 a very humble man. It wasn't It wasn't a lot of them post the 381 00:27:57,319 --> 00:28:03,599 their police careers, wrote memoirs and talked about the murder investigations. He didn't 382 00:28:03,599 --> 00:28:07,480 do that. And there's only really one time where we got a glimpse of 383 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,279 his thoughts and his his ideas of what might go on. And he got 384 00:28:11,279 --> 00:28:19,559 interviewed by a newspaper and he it was shortly after there was there was one 385 00:28:19,599 --> 00:28:25,839 of the people that gets closely linked with the murders is he took a name 386 00:28:25,839 --> 00:28:34,000 of George Chapman, and he he killed his two of his partners or wives, 387 00:28:34,039 --> 00:28:37,119 and he was like, it's women, women he was in relationship with. 388 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:42,119 He poisoned them. And shortly after that's a reporter from one of the 389 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,720 local papers went to visit him his home, and it was a one and 390 00:28:45,799 --> 00:28:49,279 only time we really get a real insight into his feelings of what was going 391 00:28:49,319 --> 00:28:52,799 on at the time and what he was doing. And that's how way end 392 00:28:52,839 --> 00:28:56,400 the book. I in the book on the prologue is is that so the 393 00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,519 words that you see him saying that his words, so his thoughts, his 394 00:29:02,839 --> 00:29:06,920 ideas and what may have happened. He's got a suspect there. I'm not 395 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,680 saying that's the same suspect as maybe back then that's who he thought Jack the 396 00:29:10,759 --> 00:29:15,799 Ripper was so yeah, And when I came across that newspaper interview, I 397 00:29:15,839 --> 00:29:18,960 just faily and it was just it was so fascinating for me to get that 398 00:29:19,759 --> 00:29:23,240 insight from the man that was central to the investigation that I had to put 399 00:29:23,279 --> 00:29:27,000 in the book somewhere. So that's why it's there at the end. And 400 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,839 in terms of his work, do you feel like there might have been biases 401 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:37,119 that would have affected the investigation, how it was conducted, and the way 402 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:41,160 it was investigated as well? I think there definitely were mistakes, So Kerry, 403 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,160 I was if I were to ask you what Chack the Ripper looked like, 404 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,519 or if I was to ask ten people what Chack the Ripple look like, 405 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:49,400 I'm not saying you would do this, but amongst those ten, definitely 406 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:53,319 one hundred percent they would be mentioned in there of a black bag like a 407 00:29:53,359 --> 00:29:57,359 doctor's bag. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, that's what people associateped Chat the 408 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,400 Ripper. But how that came about is such a fascinating and I find it's 409 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,839 such an interesting story. So what what the police did back then is and 410 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,680 this is this was a decision taken above aveline's head. It was senior officers 411 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,119 at the time. Maybe maybe even the commission, I don't know. There's 412 00:30:11,119 --> 00:30:15,400 certainly senior officers. They made a conscious decision that they weren't going to engage 413 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,519 with the press. They had nothing to do with them. They weren't going 414 00:30:17,559 --> 00:30:21,200 to tell them about the investigation. If they needed them for some reason, 415 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:25,119 they would go to them, and if it's an appeal about a suspect or 416 00:30:25,119 --> 00:30:26,880 something, they might have gone to them. But in general they just kept 417 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:32,799 my arm's length and they didn't engage with them at all. And one of 418 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:36,759 the ladies that was murdered by the name of Elizabeth Stride, and she was 419 00:30:36,839 --> 00:30:41,480 murdered on the same night as another woman, Catherine Eddoes, but Elizabeth came 420 00:30:41,599 --> 00:30:45,160 first, and there was it was in Berner Street was where this murder took 421 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:53,000 place. And his name, though it's gone from my brain, what's the 422 00:30:53,119 --> 00:31:02,400 name? There was a weakness Fanny, Fanny something anyway, so she's she's 423 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:04,759 come forward to the police and said I saw a man running past my house 424 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,839 coming from the direction of the murder, and he was carrying a black, 425 00:31:08,839 --> 00:31:15,000 shiny bag. So the assumption was by the police and everybody that that must 426 00:31:15,039 --> 00:31:18,599 have been the murderer who's running away black shiny bag. Of course he got 427 00:31:18,599 --> 00:31:25,599 in it body paths and the knife who knows, And the press. Because 428 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,400 the police wouldn't engage with them, the press sort of they flooded the area 429 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:40,640 with their reporters, and a reporter or two spoke with Fanny. People can 430 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:47,240 read and missus Fanny Water, so they spoke with her. So that was 431 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,359 that was suddenly front page news, as it would be if someone's seen that, 432 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,240 someone's seen. He wasn't called Jack Ripper. Then he got his name 433 00:31:52,279 --> 00:31:56,960 a bit later. But someone's seen this murderer. He's running around and he's 434 00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,160 got a black shiny bag. So we've got a clue now is what he 435 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,759 looks like. So that was front page news. And some fellow was reading 436 00:32:02,799 --> 00:32:07,759 all the newspaper and said to himself, oh dear, that's me. So 437 00:32:07,799 --> 00:32:09,079 he's gone to the police station. He's gone to the police and said, 438 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,799 you know that man that was running past Fanny Morton was house. That was 439 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,079 me and in that black bag. I had some mental empty cegarette boxes. 440 00:32:17,599 --> 00:32:21,319 And the police checked it out and they were happy, so they eliminated him 441 00:32:21,359 --> 00:32:23,319 from their inquiries. He had nothing to do with it, so the black 442 00:32:23,319 --> 00:32:27,960 shiny bag had nothing to do with it, but because they weren't engaging with 443 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,759 the press, they didn't tell them. So, not only even in eighteen 444 00:32:31,799 --> 00:32:37,759 eighty eight, in twenty twenty three, one hundred and thirty plus years later, 445 00:32:37,039 --> 00:32:40,960 people still associate Jack Ripple with this black shiny bag, when at the 446 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,359 time they could have shut it down and said, actually, look, we've 447 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,519 a limited we've identified this man, we've eliminated from his choirs, all the 448 00:32:46,599 --> 00:32:50,519 usual police jargon, and they could have put that to bed, but I 449 00:32:50,599 --> 00:32:52,240 didn't. They let it run. So still to this day, you go 450 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,000 go on the internet, you do a search Jack the Ripper, and there's 451 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:59,200 a black shiny bag and it was this fellow that was running past with eventually 452 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:05,559 cegrette boxes. And it's that kind of thing that if you're investigating a murder 453 00:33:05,559 --> 00:33:08,519 and you've got the wrong description of the suspect out there, it can't help. 454 00:33:08,759 --> 00:33:14,279 It can't it can't, it can't benefit your investigation. Are people ignoring 455 00:33:14,319 --> 00:33:15,920 somebody else because he hasn't got a black shiny bag? He can't be Jack 456 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,599 Ripper, even even one of the victims, Oh, he hasn't got a 457 00:33:19,599 --> 00:33:22,079 black shiny bag. I feel comfortable walking off of him. And you know 458 00:33:22,079 --> 00:33:27,559 what I mean, So who knows what this decision and the failure to engage 459 00:33:27,599 --> 00:33:31,279 with the media or the press at the time, what were the repercussions? 460 00:33:31,279 --> 00:33:36,119 And it's those, It's little things like that you and bear in mind, 461 00:33:36,119 --> 00:33:37,920 we've got very we haven't got a lot of the paperwork, so we don't 462 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:42,640 know an awful lot about the police investigation. But if you've only got a 463 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,480 little bit of paperwork and you see mistakes like that, you start to thinking, 464 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,599 oh, what else have they done? So when you're investigating murder, 465 00:33:47,599 --> 00:33:53,680 now wet my job. And so during when I was investigating murders, I 466 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:58,680 had two different roles. I was a detective sergeant and detective inspector. Detective 467 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,039 sergeant was much more fun, how much I enjoy it so much more. 468 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:07,280 But I've got a bit more pension inspectors. I got promoted. Yeah, 469 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:13,559 I know, I said I wasn't votible on this one occasion I was. 470 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:16,880 I went on as an addictive detective inspective. One of my jobs was to 471 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:22,840 write strategies about everything about your house to house, CCTV, telephones, family 472 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:27,320 liaison. You'd write a strategy for every strand of an investigation. So the 473 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,679 people that were responsible for that strand were under no illusions what was being asked, 474 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,360 and they knew, they knew what evidence we were looking for and how 475 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,039 we were going to go and find it. And one of one of the 476 00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:42,280 strategies we do now was a media strategy because we understand the importance of engaging 477 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,679 with the press, engaging with all sorts of media. Now it's not just 478 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:51,079 the press and the benefits that it can it can give give an investigation. 479 00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:53,880 We know that now, we know we know how important it is. So 480 00:34:53,960 --> 00:35:00,800 back then for them to just not engage with the press at all can't have 481 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:07,199 helped their investigation, and I think it positively hindered it, and we can't. 482 00:35:07,679 --> 00:35:09,800 I've got a few questions, and I'm reluctant to ask them, because 483 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:13,280 obviously there's a lot of it's in the book, and we have some questions 484 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,719 on some people that I'm doing my interview this evening, and a lot of 485 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:23,320 it is looking at the comparisons between the investigative work that happened then and then 486 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:28,119 what would happen now. And we've spoken a little bit about that, and 487 00:35:28,159 --> 00:35:32,119 I asked some people what would they have asked the detective in eighteen eighty eight, 488 00:35:32,519 --> 00:35:36,719 and what would they ask the detective now if it was to happen now, 489 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:50,880 And a lot of it is who did it answer? Though? Yeah, 490 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:59,400 thank you, there was a couple that was interested to know if because 491 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,599 obviously Seventh Sanctum is the podcast that we're on. A lot of the work 492 00:36:02,639 --> 00:36:07,880 we do is with paranormal and other nurse and true crime, and there is 493 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:14,480 a link to work with Robert Lee's. So do you know that if the 494 00:36:14,519 --> 00:36:20,039 detective consulted with him more than he was a psychic medium at the time he 495 00:36:20,159 --> 00:36:23,320 was consulting with the police, I honestly don't know the answer to that. 496 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:28,679 It's not someone I've come across before. He wasn't he wasn't within the what 497 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:35,320 I'm what I researched. So then, so are you saying, would we 498 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:40,599 engage now with psychic Well, yeah, maybe not. To my knowledge, 499 00:36:40,639 --> 00:36:45,400 I've never never seen it. It's never been discussed. But that's not to 500 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:52,559 say as an individual it would be an individual decision by by by the investigators. 501 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:57,719 As a senior investigators, I've never come across it. I'm not aware 502 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:04,599 of it, but everybody's got their own thoughts and ideas. And I've been 503 00:37:04,639 --> 00:37:08,800 in murder investigations where you become desperate because you want to solve it, because 504 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,679 it becomes personal. You want you want to get justice for the victim, 505 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:14,960 you want to get justice for the family, You want to get them answers. 506 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:17,920 So I can imagine, and I mean this is just a guest best 507 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:23,000 guess, I can imagine that at some point somewhere someone has approached a detective 508 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:29,360 and said, and they've probably either through whether what harm can it do? 509 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,880 Or actually, I'll try anything. At this point, I would imagine somebody 510 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:37,360 probably has and does. That's saying I've not seen it, and I don't 511 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,239 know if they did in eighteen eighty eight, it wouldn't surprise me, wouldn't 512 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:42,840 surprise it. And one of the things they did try in eighteen eighty eight, 513 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:49,360 which I find is fascinating, is right, I can't remember this word 514 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,679 even. I think it's called optomology. It might be optomology. I might 515 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:54,920 have made that up. It's got an opto something in it. So what 516 00:37:54,960 --> 00:38:00,960 the the idea was? When a person dies, the last image that they 517 00:38:00,039 --> 00:38:06,920 see is burnt into their eyes. It remains within their eyes. So what 518 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:12,840 they did was is they took photographs of people's eyes. Theyad people with a 519 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,519 view to blowing up the image so that so, oh, look we can 520 00:38:15,519 --> 00:38:19,360 see the last thing they saw. We'll see, we'll see the murderer. 521 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,000 And you know, earlier I was talking about people did memo. Some officers 522 00:38:22,039 --> 00:38:28,000 wrote memoirs, and one of the officers involved in his memoir said that for 523 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:34,440 the seventh murder, or the fifth of the canonical five Mary Jane Kelly, 524 00:38:34,679 --> 00:38:42,159 that the police tried this and it was it was it was. Looking back 525 00:38:42,159 --> 00:38:45,199 now, you think that's crazy, but back then they I would imagine that 526 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:47,960 they look, if there's any chance at all, we'll try it. So 527 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,280 if you've got that mindset, and the psychic was come up to you and 528 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,000 say to you, I mean, I don't know how psychic's work, So 529 00:38:55,280 --> 00:39:00,559 I don't insult anybody, but psychic come up to somebody and said I've I've 530 00:39:00,559 --> 00:39:06,079 got this information. I'm sure they would have listened. How they acted on 531 00:39:06,159 --> 00:39:07,679 it, I don't know. I'm sure they would have listened. Okay, 532 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:12,840 And that's really fascinating. Okay, I didn't know that that they did it 533 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:19,119 with the eyes. Yeah, that's really fascinating. The crazy thing is that 534 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,320 was eighteen eighty eight and I put this in the book and I can't remember 535 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:27,760 all the dates now I should read my book more in the nineteen hundreds and 536 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,880 something about nineteen twenties, so it was quite a way after this. A 537 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:37,440 person was convicted in Germany for an axe murder where he killed eight people or 538 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:45,239 something and they used that as evidence against him. Really yeah, so crazy. 539 00:39:46,079 --> 00:39:52,239 I'm going to do my nighttime reading on now book. I can't remember 540 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,320 which section it's in, but it's in the book. Well, yeah, 541 00:39:54,360 --> 00:40:00,719 thank you. Another thing that keeps going. Another aspect that popping up is 542 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:06,119 the H. H. Holmes link. Obviously, I don't I know people 543 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:12,320 for people to read the book to no more. My information is that he 544 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,559 wasn't in the country at the time. That's my understanding. So so what 545 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:22,039 I've done so when it comes to suspects, you could you could throw fifty 546 00:40:22,119 --> 00:40:24,679 names at me, and I was the same answer every single time. As 547 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:30,480 a detective, I look at evidence. I don't I don't look at conjecture, 548 00:40:30,079 --> 00:40:36,280 theories, pine the sky ideas, which a lot of what I see 549 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:40,760 from the suspects, the reasons why people suspect them to me is pine and 550 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:44,119 the sky most of it. I look at evidence. So what is the 551 00:40:44,159 --> 00:40:47,199 evidence to get in these murders? And essentially what the evidence is comes from 552 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:55,079 witnesses, and the witnesses of three of the murders, three or four have 553 00:40:55,639 --> 00:41:04,800 four of them have seen the victim with another person, and they have given 554 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,280 descriptions that are quite vague to be honest, apart from one which is really 555 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:14,280 which is almost two too detailed that makes you wonder whether that's actually been made 556 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:20,679 up. But because you've got these vague, generic descriptions that could match basically 557 00:41:20,679 --> 00:41:27,880 anybody and actually evidence that would link someone to to the murders, you can 558 00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,800 come up with all these names. And my answer would always be, what's 559 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:34,400 the evidence, not not they were in they were in White Chapel at the 560 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:38,199 time, and they they they did some paintings that are a bit odd or 561 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:43,960 whatever whatever whatever these theories are, or they may have written the letters to 562 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,079 the press that named them miss jack Ripper, Well, what evidence is there 563 00:41:47,079 --> 00:41:51,000 that they commit to murder? And they will always, it will always always 564 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,280 fall back to exactly the same thing. There is none even the DNA that 565 00:41:54,440 --> 00:42:00,639 was said to have been on a shawl that there's no that that the continuity 566 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:06,679 and the provenance of this shaw is is non existent. So there's a garment 567 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:10,840 with some DNA on it, and using micro chondrial DNA, they believe that 568 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:15,559 it was linked to Cosminsky, one of one of the suspects. Well, 569 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:19,719 a load of rubbish, basically, an absolutely load of rubbish because there's no 570 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,679 evidence that this shaw is from the crime scene. So that's your first once 571 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:27,119 once, Once you say that, everything else that follows you just you just 572 00:42:27,199 --> 00:42:30,920 you just fall falls down. So when it comes to the suspects, every 573 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:35,360 single one of them must say exactly the same. There's no evidence that links 574 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,840 them to the murder. So a lotant to spoil. But what I do, 575 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:43,440 what I do in the book is a comit a different way, So 576 00:42:43,639 --> 00:42:47,800 I look at the most popular suspects. When we investigate murders, we have 577 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:53,000 a technique known as t I E. The what the t I E stands 578 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:58,119 will keeps changing, but at the moment, it's trace, investigate, evaluate, 579 00:42:58,639 --> 00:43:01,119 So it's a it's a method. So you generate a list of people 580 00:43:01,199 --> 00:43:04,599 where the suspect is likely to be on it. So it could be people 581 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,920 that somebody who has discovered the body, people that are in the air at 582 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:12,400 the time, people with a grievance against the victim, people that use similar 583 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:16,039 methods, People live in the area, has got intelligence that they might be 584 00:43:16,119 --> 00:43:21,559 violent. So you generate a list and in theory, your suspect should be 585 00:43:21,559 --> 00:43:27,320 on it, and then you use tie as a method of eliminating each suspect 586 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,119 that you can by the fact that, for instance, they were in a 587 00:43:30,119 --> 00:43:34,400 different area at a different time, they don't fit a description, their DNA 588 00:43:34,519 --> 00:43:37,119 profile doesn't match the profile we've got, whatever it is. You come up 589 00:43:37,119 --> 00:43:39,400 with a criteria how you eliminate people, and the idea is you knock on 590 00:43:39,519 --> 00:43:44,559 off and to eventually in an idea will joined up with one. In reality, 591 00:43:44,559 --> 00:43:46,360 you probably end up with a few, and then you use different methods 592 00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:50,119 to look at them. So you might do surveillance on them, you might 593 00:43:50,199 --> 00:43:52,360 arrest them, search their homes or whatever. So that's the method that we 594 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:59,159 would use on some murders. So I've applied that method to the most popular 595 00:43:59,199 --> 00:44:04,679 suspects and I've got it down to two, and of those two, I 596 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:08,239 favor one because if it's going to be one of those two, I think 597 00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:10,519 it would be more likely to be that one. But that's as far as 598 00:44:10,519 --> 00:44:15,519 I can go. I'm not going to in the very first chapter in the 599 00:44:15,519 --> 00:44:21,440 introduction I say this isn't about solving the crimes, because I don't think you 600 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:25,199 can do that. Sorry to disappoint people, no, no, no, 601 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:30,159 So if you as to so, yeah, So I'm current in a little 602 00:44:30,159 --> 00:44:36,159 book book club and we are currently reading your book and the moment so yeah, 603 00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:38,159 so I haven't got all the information as we do an interview. I 604 00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:43,760 wanted to kind of go in a little bit asking questions from of someone who 605 00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:46,760 hasn't read your book entirely or at all. So I hope that I'll see 606 00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,519 Kerry. I'll be very happy. This is an offer, and I'm not 607 00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:54,039 if you if your book club will have a big will get together zoom with 608 00:44:54,079 --> 00:44:57,400 me. I'll be happy. I'll be happy to do that and answer any 609 00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,000 questions for you people in your book club, if you want to do it 610 00:45:00,039 --> 00:45:02,000 afterwards, I'm happy to do that. That would be absolutely amazing. Yes, 611 00:45:02,039 --> 00:45:06,119 please a few times now. I'm more than happy to give up now 612 00:45:06,119 --> 00:45:09,760 all my time just people are spending their time reading my book. I'm happy 613 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:14,840 to do that. Definitely would arrange that. Thank you so much. So 614 00:45:15,039 --> 00:45:21,480 I think my last question to you is if there is another case, Is 615 00:45:21,519 --> 00:45:27,239 there another case that's picture interested you'd like to look into more? Not yet, 616 00:45:28,159 --> 00:45:31,199 But one of the things writing a book is really hard work. It 617 00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,760 takes up, it takes over your life. It's has a lot of hard 618 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,039 work. So if you were to ask me now, would you ever do 619 00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:43,519 this again on another crime? The flaw answer is no. If you ask 620 00:45:43,599 --> 00:45:45,519 me many years time and might I have changed my mind. But so funny 621 00:45:45,559 --> 00:45:49,639 enough, you were talking about the narrative style. Where are you introduced the 622 00:45:51,119 --> 00:45:54,760 witnesses in that way? And I did that for a very very some some 623 00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:59,400 very specific reasons. So one of them is what you what you highlighted is 624 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:04,519 that these real people and murder for me is real. So a lot of 625 00:46:04,599 --> 00:46:07,199 people that are in I'm not I'm not digging them out for this, but 626 00:46:07,199 --> 00:46:10,079 a lot of people that are into true crime it's like a it's like a 627 00:46:10,079 --> 00:46:13,519 form of entertainment and I'm not. I'm not that's not me having to go 628 00:46:13,559 --> 00:46:16,320 to people about that. I'm involved in that now, so fine, But 629 00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:20,800 for me, murder is real. It was about the crime scenes and the 630 00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:24,000 victims and the families that are left behind. So it's all murder, is 631 00:46:24,079 --> 00:46:28,559 very very It's not something that I read in a book. It's something that 632 00:46:28,559 --> 00:46:36,159 I've experienced, so I didn't want to just regurgitate the facts. And funny, 633 00:46:37,079 --> 00:46:38,840 when you're an author, you do you do read your reviews, and 634 00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:45,159 every bad review actually be fair, it's all. There was one one who 635 00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:47,599 was really bad, there was another which wasn't particularly good, and there was 636 00:46:47,599 --> 00:46:52,559 another which was four stars. But but all of them are people that are 637 00:46:52,599 --> 00:46:57,559 involved. They call themselves Ripperologists, and and they're very into into the Ripple 638 00:46:57,599 --> 00:47:00,599 world, which I'm not criticizing. It's so fast that well, but none 639 00:47:00,599 --> 00:47:07,239 of them like they don't like the fact that I've done that narrative style I'm 640 00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:09,840 using. I've had two invents and diagleogue. Obviously I can't. I can't. 641 00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:14,800 I don't know what the conversations are exactly between people, and they don't 642 00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:17,440 like that. But for me, I wasn't, as I said before, 643 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:21,079 I wasn't writing a book for them. I was writing the book for people. 644 00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:24,679 So most most people don't know about Jack Ripper, so I'm writing the 645 00:47:24,679 --> 00:47:30,679 book for most people. And I think there's a good reason why people most 646 00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:34,559 Jack the Ripper books aren't very popular. The ones that are, like the 647 00:47:34,639 --> 00:47:45,400 Five by Hallie Rubyn Hall the book by Patricia Cornwall corn And I think it's 648 00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:49,519 probably about it. I can't I can't think of any other books and they're 649 00:47:49,599 --> 00:47:52,360 they're popular for a reason. One is because Hallie's written about the victims, 650 00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:57,519 and the other ones because it's Patricia Cornwell and she's famous. Jack the Ripper 651 00:47:57,519 --> 00:48:00,039 books are very hard to get into because I just just a list of facts, 652 00:48:00,159 --> 00:48:02,239 essentially. I didn't want to do that. I didn't want to just 653 00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:06,360 I might as well just cut and pasted from someone else's book. I wanted 654 00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:10,480 to make it real and also wanted to introduce a kind of idea and a 655 00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:14,280 bit of atmosphere of what it was like in eighteen eighty eight at the time, 656 00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:17,960 and the challenges and what it was like to live there. And so 657 00:48:19,079 --> 00:48:22,159 as you go through you may not know it, but you're reading stuff that 658 00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:24,679 is actually happened at the time, or it's facts about the time, and 659 00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:30,719 so like one of the witnesses was somebody looked after one of the common lodging 660 00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:34,800 houses and they had to do things on a certain day. They had to 661 00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:37,519 do this every four weeks, have to do that after every day, they 662 00:48:37,519 --> 00:48:38,719 had to open the windows and all that. So I kind of put that 663 00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:42,079 in there because that's by law, that's what they had to do. So 664 00:48:42,119 --> 00:48:45,239 I was trying to introduce an element of what it was like in eighteen eighty 665 00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:50,519 eight. And I completely get that the people that used to reading Jack the 666 00:48:50,519 --> 00:48:52,239 Book of Jack, the Book Jack the Ripper, books that are just a 667 00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:55,639 list of facts don't like it. And I get that, but not wishing 668 00:48:55,679 --> 00:48:59,159 to be rude, I'm not writing it for them. I'm writing it for 669 00:48:59,199 --> 00:49:05,559 everybody else to make it more accessible and make it more real. And yeah, 670 00:49:05,599 --> 00:49:09,960 I think that humanizing people it's victims goes a long way, because, 671 00:49:10,039 --> 00:49:15,320 like you said, I go along to a lot of true crime things if 672 00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:17,960 I can, I go and see shows, whatever, and you do get 673 00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,559 lost in the fact that this is something that actually happened to an actual person 674 00:49:22,599 --> 00:49:27,519 who's got actual family, and you're just in the moment of the facts. 675 00:49:28,039 --> 00:49:31,400 But when you actually come away and think about, actually this is this is 676 00:49:31,559 --> 00:49:37,679 this person and then understanding who that person actually was, it does change the 677 00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:43,280 narrative a little or less about the person who did it, more about the 678 00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:45,840 people that went through it and the ones that had to survive it as well. 679 00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,719 It leaves the footprint, isn't it. That doesn't It's never gone to 680 00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:52,000 weigh the footprinter jack, the rip's never going to wait in there. So 681 00:49:52,639 --> 00:49:55,280 it kind of is a reminder. You went to Crime Call and one of 682 00:49:55,280 --> 00:50:00,880 the I'm so my first book, I wrote about how murgers investigated and I 683 00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:05,199 refer to some of my crimes that I investigated, but I don't use the 684 00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:07,840 victims names and I don't use the suspects names, and it's really important to 685 00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:08,440 me. I don't, I don't. I don't do that. I don't, 686 00:50:08,639 --> 00:50:12,559 I don't, I don't. When I first left I kind of where 687 00:50:12,559 --> 00:50:15,079 I was finding my feet, I said some things now that I regret. 688 00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:20,440 I talked about crimes I wouldn't wouldn't now talk about. So when I got 689 00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:23,199 involved with crime con it was very important to me that they're what is it 690 00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:28,480 they stand for, and they're very much about the victims, and that's that's 691 00:50:28,679 --> 00:50:34,320 I think sometimes that gets completely lost on an element within the true crime world, 692 00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:37,880 and I think that that was really highlighted around the Nickel a bully case 693 00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:40,599 and some of some of the some of the stuff I saw and read was 694 00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:45,679 just just terrible. And it's like this is like it was like a game 695 00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:49,800 to some people, whereas that that was a mum and a wife and a 696 00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:52,559 daughter and a sister, and that that kind of get lost in some people's 697 00:50:52,599 --> 00:50:57,880 minds. And as I say, and obviously if you carry you, you're 698 00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:00,079 in the same mindset that it's a real thing, and it's real people, 699 00:51:00,119 --> 00:51:05,239 and it's it's real lives are affected by it. Yeah, it's important that 700 00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:07,480 we can look at these things and maybe learn from different perspectives, from a 701 00:51:07,519 --> 00:51:14,400 police perspective or from just a human being understanding human nature and so forth. 702 00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:17,559 But yeah, thank you so much. Is there anything that I haven't asked 703 00:51:17,559 --> 00:51:22,840 that you feel it's a really important note in terms of your book and the 704 00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:24,519 work you have done with Jack the Ripper. I want to make sure we've 705 00:51:24,559 --> 00:51:28,440 covered everything. Yeah, no, no, I think I think we've covered 706 00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:31,800 everything that that's important to me. And as I say, the most important 707 00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:37,280 elements to me is always that these are real people. And and I know, 708 00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:39,400 I know there's some controversy over whether they were prostitutes or not. The 709 00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:43,639 victims that the evidence that I've seen is that they are. But to me, 710 00:51:43,679 --> 00:51:46,679 it makes no difference. Does it matter if they're if they're prostitutes or 711 00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:52,000 not. They're human beings that found themselves in the position where they ended up 712 00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:55,239 turning to prostitution out of desperation, not because not because it was it was 713 00:51:55,320 --> 00:52:01,000 it was fun and enjoyable, so so to to me that these were real 714 00:52:01,039 --> 00:52:06,079 people. The witnesses were real people, the police officers and real people everybody. 715 00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:09,559 If you see, if you if you are unlucky enough to witness be 716 00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:14,840 a witness within a murder, any part of it, especially finding the body 717 00:52:15,119 --> 00:52:16,880 that will live with you forever and ever. And I think that was one 718 00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:21,239 of the things that I wanted to get across, is that they're not. 719 00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:23,880 To me, they're not They're not names on a list of facts. They're 720 00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:30,519 real people that had traumatic experiences and I think they deserve in my own little 721 00:52:30,559 --> 00:52:31,840 way. And all right, yeah, I don't know what they said in 722 00:52:32,159 --> 00:52:36,320 real life, but to me, it was important that we bring bring those 723 00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:39,000 people to life. It's like this affected them, that this this really was 724 00:52:39,039 --> 00:52:43,320 a big part of their life that they probably carried until the way they died. 725 00:52:44,119 --> 00:52:45,880 And the truth is as well, these women were doing things that they 726 00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:50,679 needed to do to keep themselves safe. They put themselves in a position where 727 00:52:50,679 --> 00:52:52,920 they potentially be in danger to keep themselves safe at night, so they had 728 00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:55,480 somewhere to stay, so they had somewhere to sleep, so they could eat. 729 00:52:55,960 --> 00:53:00,480 So this wasn't something that it was life for them. It's how they 730 00:53:00,559 --> 00:53:05,000 survived. The money they earned, got a roof over the head and maybe 731 00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:08,119 some food on the table. It wasn't to get fancy clothes and whatever. 732 00:53:08,199 --> 00:53:13,360 It was literally to survive. Yeah, well, thank you so much, 733 00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:16,159 Steven, thank you for joining me. I'm going to share all the information 734 00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:20,360 about your book in the bio as well, so people can go ahead and 735 00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:25,039 catch themselves a copy. And yeah, we's sole out our book club meeting 736 00:53:25,119 --> 00:53:30,360 and maybe we can invite some of the viewers along as well they fancy. 737 00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:36,599 I don't know how to work technically, but technologically, but I'm very happy 738 00:53:37,079 --> 00:53:37,760 even do it on my YouTube channel. I can do it on it. 739 00:53:38,199 --> 00:53:42,639 I'm very happy to arrange something where we all sit down and people have read 740 00:53:42,679 --> 00:53:44,920 the book and ask me questions. I'm very happy to do that. So, 741 00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:45,840 yeah, just let me know but thank you very much for having me 742 00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:49,559 on Carre. I love I love talking about this. I could talk about 743 00:53:49,559 --> 00:53:52,519 it for hours and hours. I have to shut themselves up. No, 744 00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:57,320 it's yeah, when you're passionate about something, Yeah, it just flows, 745 00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:00,480 isn't it, Which is what It's good because you inspire and you educate and 746 00:54:00,519 --> 00:54:04,400 you informed. So there's nothing it's only good things that are going to come 747 00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:07,960 from having conversations like this, especially if someone so passionate. So thank you 748 00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:10,000 so much. I appreciate it. Thank you very much, Gerri, thank 749 00:54:10,039 --> 00:54:13,519 you. Well. I'm going to say goodbye to every one. Good evening, 750 00:54:13,679 --> 00:54:16,199 good morning, good afternoon, whenever you're listening. Can as see you 751 00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:19,159 next time? Thanke it