1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,640 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,719 --> 00:00:28,519 with Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,559 --> 00:00:32,479 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:37,799 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:43,479 in crime, Bill Thomas. Thank you so much for coming. We're so 10 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:46,960 excited to have you here for this live podcasting event. This is a very 11 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:51,799 first time we've hosted a podcast, let alone one that was also live recording 12 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,079 at the same time, so we're excited about it. I don't know if 13 00:00:55,079 --> 00:00:59,560 you're familiar with the Mind over Murder podcast. How many people listen? Wonderful, 14 00:01:00,079 --> 00:01:03,239 kay, So I'm guessing you might know two of these people up here 15 00:01:03,239 --> 00:01:08,879 and maybe more. We wanted to welcome Kristin Dilly and Bill Thomas along with 16 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:17,280 their guest No Joyce, Call Canada, who's the sister of Keith Call. 17 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,879 If anybody deserves any applause. Yes, this is definitely a different format for 18 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:23,359 them, but they're going to start with the presentation and then there will be 19 00:01:23,439 --> 00:01:27,840 questions and answers afterwards, So hold your questions until then and you'll be able 20 00:01:27,879 --> 00:01:32,439 to hang out on this awesome mic for those questions. Without further ado, 21 00:01:32,439 --> 00:01:34,319 I'm going to hand it off to Kristin and Bill and we'll go ahead and 22 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:40,359 start with our traditional opening. So thank you so much to everybody you're listening 23 00:01:40,439 --> 00:01:44,159 to the Mind of a Murder podcast. I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas, 24 00:01:44,239 --> 00:01:48,159 and we're here for a live podcasting event at the Yorktown Library and this 25 00:01:48,239 --> 00:01:51,000 is definitely a first for us. Thank you to everybody who came out tonight. 26 00:01:51,079 --> 00:01:53,200 We appreciate you so much. Give yourselves a round of applause. We're 27 00:01:53,200 --> 00:02:00,359 coming out with us. Thank you. All right, are you ready for 28 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:06,319 questions? We welcome them. Will ask you to step up to the mic 29 00:02:07,439 --> 00:02:12,719 and seriously come up. Line up before the first person asked a question, 30 00:02:13,039 --> 00:02:15,800 keep in mind now your question is going to go out on the world Wide 31 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:20,159 Web. If you don't want to say your full name or you want to 32 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,120 use an alias, feel free and we're serious. You don't have to say 33 00:02:23,159 --> 00:02:28,960 my name is John Smith. You can just say call me John or whatever. 34 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:31,960 I'm the second Bill in the room, so call me Bill. Okay. 35 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:37,319 And I noticed Bill that you keep mentioning these wonderful people in Lancaster County 36 00:02:37,479 --> 00:02:40,879 that you seem to admire and appreciate their coming forward with information. Back in 37 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:45,520 nineteen eighty five, we had a good friend of ours in Lancaster County who 38 00:02:45,599 --> 00:02:50,520 lived close to Alan Wilmer Senior. She was murdered. A man was accused 39 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:54,360 of that murder and found guilty, and after thirty five years he was exonerated. 40 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:59,960 In the meantime, the true murderer escape the end of the law, 41 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:01,240 and a lot of things happened then. I think a lot of it was 42 00:03:01,319 --> 00:03:07,080 corruption on behalf of the prosecutors and the police, and they've never acknowledged that. 43 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:10,719 I'd like to somehow advise the state police and the FBI to come forward 44 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,599 and be honest about this. A lot of people are not coming forward with 45 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:19,560 information because they don't trust the police. And in this case in Lancaster County 46 00:03:19,599 --> 00:03:23,360 in nineteen eighty five, there's a lot of good reasons not to trust the 47 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:28,639 police, local sheriff prosecutors, as well as the state police and the FBI. 48 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,039 This was a loved one of ours who was taken from us. I 49 00:03:32,159 --> 00:03:37,439 come from a family of eight kids, and this woman who was murdered came 50 00:03:37,439 --> 00:03:40,719 from a family of nine kids, and our family's aligned. Her brother was 51 00:03:40,759 --> 00:03:45,120 my best friend, her sister was my sister's best friend. And it still 52 00:03:45,159 --> 00:03:49,080 hurts this very day that has not been solved. But I must call you 53 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:53,240 out on the carpet today also because there was no mention of her today in 54 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:57,360 this despite the fact that he lived very close to her. He committed these 55 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,120 other murders he's been found guilty of. But tonight you neglected to mention her 56 00:04:00,199 --> 00:04:04,479 name, and so please tell us who you're referring to. I'm not going 57 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:08,960 to say her name. Oh I'm sorry. So I would love to talk 58 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:11,759 with you afterwards, and I do apologize. It's your name that you know. 59 00:04:11,919 --> 00:04:15,000 How many murders were committed in nineteen eighty five within a mile of Alan 60 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:19,399 wid Wilmer Senior right with respect to her family, I just don't feel comfortable 61 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:24,279 saying her name without it. I understand, and I think I know who 62 00:04:24,319 --> 00:04:28,199 you're referring to, and I would love to talk with you afterwards. But 63 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:34,160 we mean no one any disrespect by failing to mention them. But I appreciate 64 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:39,560 everything you're saying, Bill, and I would absolutely like to And Bill, 65 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:44,279 I do appreciate yours and Christian's work on this because it does bring to light 66 00:04:44,319 --> 00:04:46,800 a lot of things that need to be brought to light. So thank you 67 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:48,959 for that. And I don't mean to be such an antagonist either, but 68 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:54,240 no, you're totally fine thanks to the opportunity. Thank you. In prayers 69 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:57,279 out to everybody and all the families who have lost members of their families. 70 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,879 Thank you, Bill. I was just staying here supporting my friend Bill because 71 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,920 she was a very good friend of mine. Matter of fact, she introduced 72 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:10,279 us and played basketball with her. So when all this came out and the 73 00:05:10,319 --> 00:05:14,759 connections and we just it just blew our minds because I'm familiar with all of 74 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:19,319 this, and so it is this is wonderful because we really want answers. 75 00:05:19,319 --> 00:05:24,879 We want the state police FBI, whatever needs to be done with Cotis and 76 00:05:24,959 --> 00:05:28,519 all of that, to just I'm not going to use the word closure, 77 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,360 but just to want some answers. Thank you, Oh, thank you. 78 00:05:31,439 --> 00:05:42,480 I appreciate it. Thank you. Hello, my name is Lorie. You've 79 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:46,439 gotten multiple emails and posts from me. Okay, sure you're aware. I 80 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:49,279 would like to go back to Lancaster County as well. In nineteen eighty five, 81 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:55,879 the population of Lancaster County was ten four hundred people. Nineteen seventy six, 82 00:05:55,959 --> 00:06:00,160 there was a horrific murder of the Rogers family in their home. The 83 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,879 Rogers family lived just down the street from a man named Gary Logan Langford. 84 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:08,759 I'm not going to use any names here people who haven't been prosecuted or charged. 85 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:13,519 I promise. It's my understanding that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior also lived very 86 00:06:13,519 --> 00:06:17,040 close to the Rogers family. You are correct, it was Dale and shar 87 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:21,600 Rogers. They were shot with a rifle, they believe in their home. 88 00:06:23,199 --> 00:06:27,160 Their home has frontage to the I'm going to mispronounce the heck out of this 89 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:30,720 Carodamin River with a long deck because they or Pierre should say, because they 90 00:06:30,759 --> 00:06:36,519 had a sailboat once they were murdered. Whomever murdered them left the home in 91 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:42,000 their Volkswagen bug, drove it about two or three miles to the main road, 92 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:46,079 and deserted it there. And if you can't see how that could be 93 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:50,160 connected to the murders of these young people with a car often being moved for 94 00:06:50,199 --> 00:06:54,879 no good reason. A couple being killed. Now, granted it was in 95 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:58,040 their home, it wasn't in a car, But I honestly believe that the 96 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:00,839 Virginia State Police and FBI, who both investigated this in the first place, 97 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,439 need to take a good hard look at it now. The other thing I 98 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:12,199 want to mention is Gary Logan. Lankford was convicted of raping Olivia Thorndike in 99 00:07:12,319 --> 00:07:16,439 nineteen eighty three. A week or maybe even just days before his trial for 100 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,519 that rape, she was murdered in her home in Henricho County, Virginia, 101 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:25,079 which is what led me to your cases in the first place. She was 102 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:28,560 found at the base of the stairs, having been stamped. And just prior 103 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,879 to that, another name, Richard Slaughter, had phoned Olivia's mother and over 104 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:38,959 the phone said to her, Olivia should not have charged Gary. She's going 105 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,720 to be dead or she is dead something to that effect. He was found 106 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:49,680 guilty of making that phone call and Henraiko County Lease did charge him with slaughter. 107 00:07:49,959 --> 00:07:54,959 He was actually charged with Thorndyke's murder, and then a key witness in 108 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,839 the case. This is a rumor, the key witness in the case wasn't 109 00:07:57,839 --> 00:08:01,040 going to testify. I moved out of the area. She was so afraid, 110 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:05,240 so they had to actually withdraw those charges. Then we have Alan Wade 111 00:08:05,279 --> 00:08:09,519 Wilmer Senior, who lived just down the street and also participated in these murders. 112 00:08:09,839 --> 00:08:13,040 In a county of ten four hundred people, you have three predators, 113 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:18,519 two actually convicted of rape, one charged with a murder that was dropped. 114 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,480 As to Richard Slaughter, he was actually one of the first people in the 115 00:08:22,519 --> 00:08:26,800 country ever found civilly liable, not criminal, the laws weren't there yet, 116 00:08:26,839 --> 00:08:33,399 unfortunately, but actually found civilly liable for stalking a woman in Maine. So 117 00:08:33,639 --> 00:08:35,480 I guess I don't know if it's a question so much as a statement, 118 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:39,799 but I find it just appalling that they can't put this all together, have 119 00:08:39,879 --> 00:08:43,679 another look at the Rogers murder, the Thorndyke murder. I just find it 120 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:48,840 odd three of them would be in that very small area and not know each 121 00:08:48,919 --> 00:08:54,879 other and not cooperate in some of these crimes. We totally agree we're not 122 00:08:54,240 --> 00:09:00,000 experts in those cases, but we've absolutely been taking a look at them. 123 00:09:00,039 --> 00:09:03,759 And one of the things that you know, our new friends from Lancaster have 124 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,360 been incredibly helpful. There are a lot of people that live in Lancaster County, 125 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:11,639 or have lived in Lancaster County, grew up there, et cetera, 126 00:09:11,759 --> 00:09:15,399 who have brought I think both of the cases that you've mentioned so far. 127 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:20,159 One of the things that we're hoping is that this new media attention to the 128 00:09:20,159 --> 00:09:26,080 Colonial Parkway murders and all of these other unsolved rapes and murders in Virginia, 129 00:09:26,519 --> 00:09:31,600 that they get another look. And I completely agree with your point, and 130 00:09:31,639 --> 00:09:35,679 I think Kristin feels the same. That I've driven through Lancaster County. It's 131 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:41,279 a beautiful place. I can't believe how many unsolved rapes and murders there are. 132 00:09:41,639 --> 00:09:45,960 When we get to the place where people are explaining this to us, 133 00:09:46,039 --> 00:09:52,159 and we get to the part where we're like explaining to us the proximity, 134 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:56,000 just how close this is. And I said to Kristin, I feel like 135 00:09:56,039 --> 00:10:03,559 the Wilmer family are surrounded by violence and all of these unsolved rapes and murders. 136 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:09,519 I don't know if it's incompetence or corruption or some combination thereof, but 137 00:10:09,879 --> 00:10:16,720 it seems like it was open season up there. And it's amazing how many 138 00:10:16,759 --> 00:10:22,600 times the Wilmer brothers names come up in connection with all of these unsolved murders. 139 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:28,120 I think there's absolutely something to it, and you're I think both of 140 00:10:28,159 --> 00:10:31,159 the last two speakers are definitely onto something. I'd like to make one more 141 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:37,600 point. The speaker before me the murder he mentioned the day that the grand 142 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:41,440 jury came back and charged the man who served thirty five years wrongly for that 143 00:10:41,519 --> 00:10:46,320 murder, was also the day that they charged Gary Logan Langford for the murder 144 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:48,960 of the Rogers family. And he was twice tried and twice acquitted for that 145 00:10:50,879 --> 00:10:54,919 or I'm sorry, hung jury, I should say. And the other thing 146 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,559 that really bothers me is the murder of the Rogers family that Langford was tried 147 00:10:58,639 --> 00:11:01,000 for. They had hair evidence that was found in the car, and they 148 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:05,919 had a fingerprint that did not match him. Why didn't they dig deeper? 149 00:11:05,519 --> 00:11:09,840 Do they still have that evidence, can it be processed? Totally agreed, 150 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:18,879 Totally agreed, and thank you. As I think next time we have to 151 00:11:18,919 --> 00:11:24,759 sort people out by height. Now we're going in the opposite direction. That's 152 00:11:24,879 --> 00:11:30,759 not a shot at our petite friends there, Robert Gray, Hey, Robert 153 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:35,960 pat you guys in person. So one question I have is there any indication 154 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:41,320 of an overlap or some tie with Ron Little? And you want to take 155 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:50,120 it that you've come across there's nothing definitive. We're hearing reports that put Wilmer 156 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:58,559 and Little in some of the same bars and nightclubs. That's not enough from 157 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:03,399 our perspective to say that there's a relationship there. But for instance, both 158 00:12:03,399 --> 00:12:07,879 of them have been mentioned to us in the last few months as being regulars 159 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:13,399 at Club Zodiac, the Zodiac club where Teresa Howell may have met her rapist 160 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:18,399 and murderer. It's something we're definitely looking at, and we hope that our 161 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:22,039 partners in law enforcement are doing the same thing. On a different note, 162 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:26,639 any of the tips that have come in about Wilmer harassing people on or near 163 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:31,759 the Parkway, was there ever any indication that there was another person present with 164 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,440 him during those tips that have come in, not in the tips that were 165 00:12:35,519 --> 00:12:41,960 rooted through us. Now we're hoping that there are dozens of other tips that 166 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:45,639 have come forward that you don't need to talk to Kristen and Bill to talk 167 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:50,039 to the FBI or the Virginia State Police. The stories we've heard, he 168 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:54,759 seems to be the only person. Interestingly, the stories we've heard all involve 169 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,759 that same very distinctive blue green truck. We don't ever seem to have another 170 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,639 person in a vehicle with him in the stories we've heard so far. So 171 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,600 at this point in time, do you think, if he is the suspect 172 00:13:07,919 --> 00:13:13,240 in at least more than one of these cases, that he was acting alone 173 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:16,840 or there was an accomplice after the fact. I'd be curious to hear all 174 00:13:16,879 --> 00:13:22,440 three of your personal opinions on that, especially with the moving of the vehicle. 175 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:26,039 Let me let the ladies go first on this one. Okay, that 176 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:30,559 was a total cop out, but now I can think of a good answer. 177 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:33,039 I didn't have any time to do that, but our Oh, I'm 178 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:35,360 sorry, would you like to go second? You're good? I mean. 179 00:13:35,399 --> 00:13:41,200 Talking to a number of our different profiler friends, Jim Fitzgerald and Clemente, 180 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:46,240 they have both put forward scenarios where you could do this singly or you could 181 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,519 do this with an accomplice. I don't think we know enough about Wilmer yet 182 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:54,679 to be able to say definitively one way or the other was he working with 183 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,639 someone? And I know a lot of people are wondering could he have been 184 00:13:58,639 --> 00:14:03,360 working with say, we don't have that information yet. I don't think I 185 00:14:03,399 --> 00:14:09,279 would like to learn more about Wilmer's movements and patterns before I commit to an 186 00:14:09,279 --> 00:14:11,600 answer, and they know that sounds wishy washing it. I'm sorry, but 187 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:15,759 I want to operate on the principle of the more information I have, the 188 00:14:15,799 --> 00:14:20,799 better informed I can be. And I don't have that information yet. I've 189 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:26,000 been It's a podcast, changed my mind many times due to gears on what 190 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:30,399 I think and even where I think his car was when I look back. 191 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:35,080 My answer too is I don't know. But a lot of these victims were 192 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:39,159 young and strong and fit, and it makes me wonder you really had to 193 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:43,279 have a lot of control, because I know for a fact my brother would 194 00:14:43,279 --> 00:14:46,600 have fought, and I can only know that Cassandra would have too, and 195 00:14:46,679 --> 00:14:52,399 so it just would not be surprised if he did. I don't know that. 196 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,519 I've been out to all of the crime scenes with Kristen. Sometimes with 197 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:01,559 the actual investigators, we've struggled with something and I don't know the answer to 198 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,519 this one yet. But there are times when we've thought with the movement of 199 00:15:05,639 --> 00:15:09,120 the vehicles and the staging of the crime scenes, and that's actually one of 200 00:15:09,159 --> 00:15:15,039 the elements of the Colonial Parkray murders is that these crime scenes seem to be 201 00:15:15,399 --> 00:15:20,600 stage to create certain impressions by the killer or killers. Sometimes we've said, 202 00:15:20,639 --> 00:15:24,840 though, when you're out there stomping around, this would be a heck of 203 00:15:24,879 --> 00:15:31,799 a lot simpler at the end of the killing part and the staging part if 204 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:35,919 he had a ride, if he had somebody to pick him up. Now, 205 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:39,200 we didn't know who the he was at that point, but the assumption 206 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,799 in saying that is that there's one killer. But then when you start looking 207 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:48,759 at the logistics of moving the vehicles around and everything, and I've had it 208 00:15:48,799 --> 00:15:52,480 explained to me and to us how it could work with one person. But 209 00:15:52,519 --> 00:15:56,120 there have been a number of times when we've looked at each other and said, 210 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:00,720 this would be a lot simpler with two people. Even if this person 211 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:06,320 isn't necessarily participating in the raping and the murdering. Maybe this is the kind 212 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:10,559 of person who would pick you up, no questions asked. Do you know 213 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:15,279 what I mean? I hope this comes out because to us this has been 214 00:16:15,279 --> 00:16:21,000 one of the greatest mysteries about how did these cases work and how did things 215 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:25,799 actually transpire? And on that note, I'll close. I know you talk 216 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:30,399 a lot about there's no such thing as closure, but you want answers other 217 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:33,960 than identifying a perpetrator. What are some of the answers you guys are most 218 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,720 looking to have at this point in time. And what do you think is 219 00:16:37,759 --> 00:16:42,480 realistic after this many years and the potential that the primary perpetrator is deceased. 220 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:48,320 No, yeah, you're the And where is my brother's remains? Yeah? 221 00:16:48,519 --> 00:16:56,399 Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. I'd go with the why. And by 222 00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:00,720 the way, I said this today to some folks earlier, I think sometimes 223 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:07,400 we're trying to apply logic to an inherently illogical act. It's not like I 224 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:11,000 got in a bar fight with somebody and he hits me on the head and 225 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,720 my head hits the bar and I end up dead. My point is not 226 00:17:14,799 --> 00:17:17,400 that it was very smart that the two of you were drunk Bill and got 227 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:18,440 into a fight in a bar, which, by the way, has never 228 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:23,240 happened. But I think sometimes we're trying to apply logic, and we know 229 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:29,359 you well and you ask really good questions, we appreciate it. Sometimes we 230 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:36,200 might be stretching our imagination because we're dealing with people that are not necessarily rational 231 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:41,480 people. I think we're talking about sociopaths here. I think sometimes the answers 232 00:17:41,519 --> 00:17:44,799 that we're going to get are not necessarily going to be satisfactory. Although I'm 233 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:48,559 totally on board with choice. I want to know, why did you kill 234 00:17:48,559 --> 00:17:52,039 these people? Why did you kill my sister? How does that make any 235 00:17:52,079 --> 00:17:56,200 sense? Thanks so much for your time, Thank you, Thank you. 236 00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:02,279 There have to be more questions. My name's Chris. I've lived in this 237 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:06,519 area all my life. I was a police officer in the eighties. I 238 00:18:06,599 --> 00:18:11,680 was not involved in any of these cases, but I have a comment more 239 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,839 than a question. These cases have interested me for years. I guess in 240 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:22,240 twenty twenty one or two, the Virginia State Police started a Virginia cold case 241 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:27,799 database. Yes, I was very encouraged by that, and I searched the 242 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:33,759 database and found that the two victims from the Ragged Island were in there, 243 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:40,240 but none of these other victims were in there at all, which really concerned 244 00:18:40,279 --> 00:18:45,240 me because of all places to advocate and to hope for tips and look for 245 00:18:45,319 --> 00:18:49,519 things to put out information. I was encouraged and felt like that would be 246 00:18:49,519 --> 00:18:53,440 a good place to do it. I did send a feedback for him back 247 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:59,680 to the State Police and asked that question. The response I got was that 248 00:19:00,039 --> 00:19:06,000 it is strictly a voluntary database. For law enforcement agencies who decide that they 249 00:19:06,079 --> 00:19:11,759 want to enter these people into the database, they can. It's basically a 250 00:19:11,799 --> 00:19:18,839 homicides area and a missing person's area. Now I last looked at it probably 251 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:22,839 last year sometime, and they were still not in there. I guess what 252 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:27,079 I would ask tonight, maybe in the future, maybe you could add that 253 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,799 to your list of steps. Personally, I would like to see that be 254 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:36,599 similar to what you were saying Bill earlier about some mandatory things for them to 255 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:41,039 do would be to put unsolved cases into that database. With that said, 256 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:47,319 at least with the people, the families and all that are looking for some 257 00:19:47,839 --> 00:19:53,519 information and looking for solving these crimes and finding the remains of those that are 258 00:19:53,559 --> 00:20:00,160 still listed as missing. I think it's absolutely essential that they at least add 259 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:06,440 those victims to the database. On my list of disappointments with the Federal Bureau 260 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:11,680 of Investigation, which seems to go longer by the day, is things like 261 00:20:11,799 --> 00:20:18,240 that, the fact that the FBI doesn't put our loved ones cases on the 262 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:22,359 unsolved database. Because the Unsolved database it's not perfect, but it's a good 263 00:20:22,559 --> 00:20:27,160 start every single unsolved homicide. If law enforcement agencies aren't going to do the 264 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:33,200 right thing and put up their goddamn cold cases on a database that was set 265 00:20:33,279 --> 00:20:37,880 up by the state legislature, then I guess we're going to have to make 266 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:42,119 it mandatory because they're not doing their job. They say they want help, 267 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:47,839 they say they want public support, they say they want information. It's very 268 00:20:47,839 --> 00:20:52,920 frustrating to have one of the double homicides in the Colonial Parkway murders up there, 269 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,960 which is great, and that information is really helpful, but where are 270 00:20:56,039 --> 00:21:00,279 all of the others. And the FBI, unfortunately is and I know you're 271 00:21:00,319 --> 00:21:08,599 listening, is they're infamous for not participating in these kind of initiatives. We 272 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:15,720 interviewed the Murder Accountability Project, which is a fascinating interview on Mind over Murder, 273 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:21,160 talking to Thomas Hargrove, who set that organization up, and they create 274 00:21:21,519 --> 00:21:26,440 murder statistics for the United States because the United States Department of Justice won't do 275 00:21:26,839 --> 00:21:33,039 their job and collect all this data, the FBI won't participate in those. 276 00:21:33,319 --> 00:21:37,720 In a way, it feels because my sister and Rebecca Dowski died in a 277 00:21:37,799 --> 00:21:42,200 national park, they don't count because the freaking FBI won't do their job, 278 00:21:42,759 --> 00:21:48,160 even something as simple as putting them up in a database, which might actually 279 00:21:48,279 --> 00:21:53,519 lead to a tip that could help solve a case. I think it's outrageous. 280 00:21:53,519 --> 00:21:57,680 Thank you, Chris. I want to say thank you for thank you. 281 00:21:57,799 --> 00:22:00,880 I know a lot of times we're talking too veterans and we say this, 282 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,079 but thank you for your service, and I think your observations are spot 283 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:07,400 on. We really appreciate it. Thank you very much. Thank you. 284 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:17,519 And speaking of veterans blankenship. My question is they said there was more people 285 00:22:17,599 --> 00:22:23,200 involved in this, and nothing else has come out. I'm wondering what happened 286 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:30,319 to the other people. You understand what I'm saying. They said that people 287 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:34,640 were killed in a different place than where they were dropped off. Where does 288 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:38,400 all this go. Are you talking about in terms of accomplices? I can't 289 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,240 hear you, ma'am. I'm sorry. Are you talking about it in terms 290 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:49,079 of accomplices? Are you thinking of accomplices? Somebody that helped assistem? From 291 00:22:49,079 --> 00:22:55,000 what I understand is they were killed. The two women were killed somewhere else 292 00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:02,319 and brought over somewhere else. This guy could we agree. We don't have 293 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:11,160 any answers there, but you're absolutely right. It's frustrating. Now let me 294 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:15,440 ask you this. For some reason, don't forget to ask on the mic 295 00:23:15,519 --> 00:23:18,559 so we can hear it on the podcast. For some reason, this guy 296 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:23,519 was writing a book on this. He had more information than the FBI. 297 00:23:25,519 --> 00:23:27,839 He had pictures of the trunk and all that stuff. Makes me think he 298 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:32,720 had something else to do with it. We're actually hoping that our friend Blaine 299 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:37,759 Pardo and his daughter Victoria Hester, who co wrote the book A Special Kind 300 00:23:37,799 --> 00:23:41,200 of Evil on the Colonial Parkway murders. We're actually hope oh is a person 301 00:23:41,279 --> 00:23:45,519 waving the book in the back. It's a wonderful book, and we do 302 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,160 urge you to read it. We're actually hoping that Blaine will be our special 303 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:52,680 guest next month because He's a really smart guy and knows a lot about this 304 00:23:52,759 --> 00:23:56,839 case, and we would dearly love to have him be our special guest. 305 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:00,359 He has said he would like to come to next month's podcast, and of 306 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,039 course Kristin and I looked at each other and said, oh no, we 307 00:24:03,079 --> 00:24:07,799 want to get you up here and get you to answer some questions. Blaine 308 00:24:07,839 --> 00:24:11,799 had a lot of great information, and he and Victoria did a fantastic job 309 00:24:11,839 --> 00:24:15,799 with the book. I think you're absolutely right. There's a lot of open 310 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:22,079 questions Ray that need to be answered. Yes, thank you for thank you 311 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:26,640 for your service. The way off film and what's going on, and there's 312 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,519 a whole lot of stove move in there. I agreed, I agreed, 313 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:34,240 agreed, I agree. More questions and comments. We welcome them, all 314 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:41,880 them all. Right, Look, so we do someone Okay, So you've 315 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,799 done a lot of hard work over the years with your help and your friendships 316 00:24:45,799 --> 00:24:49,960 that you made within law enforcement and the FBI. Out of the seventeen foias 317 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,240 that were denied before, have you ever gotten any feedback where those getting a 318 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,079 little bit lenient to be released to you. We've not had a lot of 319 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:04,160 luck with for you, Blaine and Victoria have had some luck. Interestingly, 320 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:12,559 it's usually with the secondary agencies. The primary investigative agencies usually have given all 321 00:25:12,599 --> 00:25:18,160 of us the it's an open case. We can't answer those questions even to 322 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,400 this day. Interestingly, we've got some very good intelligence over the years from 323 00:25:22,599 --> 00:25:30,839 agencies that attended briefings of various law enforcement agencies over the years. They've provided 324 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,240 good information, even to the point of sending us copies of handwritten notes that 325 00:25:34,279 --> 00:25:41,039 the officers jotted down while they were discussing the cases for us so far, 326 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:45,960 the Foyer request, I'm sorry freedom of Information Act requests, which is supposed 327 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:51,039 to be about transparency and good government, He said, rolling his eyes, 328 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,119 I'm sorry, did that sound skeptical? We have not had a lot of 329 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,319 luck with Freedom of Information Act requests. Doesn't mean we won't keep trying. 330 00:26:00,519 --> 00:26:04,480 And we've talked to some other podcasters and journalists and we're going to try some 331 00:26:04,559 --> 00:26:10,519 new things. We'll keep trying. So far, we haven't had great results. 332 00:26:11,039 --> 00:26:12,799 And then the last I know this has been asked many times, but 333 00:26:14,039 --> 00:26:17,880 as of today, do you have any feedback of whether the hair that was 334 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:22,240 in Kathy's hands have been tested? I cannot get a straight answer from the 335 00:26:22,279 --> 00:26:30,519 Federal Bureau of Investigation, thank you. Yeah, I'm running back up. 336 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:37,720 Apparently it has to be adjusted for Land of the Giants here. So the 337 00:26:37,759 --> 00:26:44,599 talk of Foya's made me think of this question with Edward's nobling. Now a 338 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,480 perpetrator is identified, and I assume it's close to being closed or is it 339 00:26:48,519 --> 00:26:52,920 still act. Oh, we got a lot of pushback. They said on 340 00:26:53,039 --> 00:26:57,440 January eighth, the case was closed. Blaine Pardo, who is He's a 341 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:02,839 pitbull, He's a great He jumped on this even before Kristin and I had 342 00:27:02,839 --> 00:27:06,759 a chance to even think about it. The response is, Oh, it's 343 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:12,319 not really a closed case. If it does close, would that open the 344 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:17,720 door for Foya's to come rolling through? We hope. I think part of 345 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:19,880 the reason why they're saying it's not closed is because they don't want that. 346 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,200 I don't think they want Bill Thomas and Kristen Dilly knocking on their door and 347 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,599 saying, give us everything you've got, because I don't think they're going to 348 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,759 do that. So I'm wondering if maybe just logistically because I don't want to 349 00:27:30,759 --> 00:27:34,519 do with this guy, but this gal, if you're the worst offender of 350 00:27:34,519 --> 00:27:37,759 the two of them. Oh, I'm the problem. You're the You've got 351 00:27:37,759 --> 00:27:41,599 the Irish temper. My dude, wonder if maybe they are continuing to say 352 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,519 no, it's still an open case because they don't want for a request rolling 353 00:27:45,559 --> 00:27:48,799 in. But that's just my theory and maybe it's a paranoid one. And 354 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:53,319 let me tell you a story. In response to your question. About a 355 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:59,400 year ago, we got a tip from a DNA lab that will remain anonymous 356 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,839 that Virginia State Police had applied for and received a SAKI grant. And SAKI 357 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:11,000 stands for Sexual Assault Kit Initiative Grant. It's actually a terrific program federal money 358 00:28:11,039 --> 00:28:17,480 put aside for agencies to apply for grant money to cover the cost of outside 359 00:28:17,559 --> 00:28:22,440 labs to test rape kits that have gone untested, which is in and of 360 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,920 itself, should be a national scandal. We got a tip that they had 361 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:32,079 applied for a SAKI grant and received it and were sending the evidence in the 362 00:28:32,599 --> 00:28:37,200 Robin Edwards case to an outside DNA lab. We were thrilled, but we 363 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:42,279 have been advised and don't mean the lab any disrespect. Our experts behind the 364 00:28:42,279 --> 00:28:45,960 scenes said to us they didn't think that the particular lab that had been chosen 365 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:52,119 was necessarily the best lab for this particular, very challenging DNA sample. This 366 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:56,680 is the last bit of DNA from Robin Edwards rape kit. Now remember Robin 367 00:28:56,799 --> 00:29:00,400 Edward's body was in the water for three days, so this is a very 368 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:07,519 small, highly degraded DNA sample that has been exposed to seawater and is over 369 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:12,119 thirty years old. So it's a nightmare. I got a hold of Jeanette 370 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:18,799 Edwards Santiago, who's Robin's sister. She's absolutely wonderful, another potential special guest 371 00:29:18,839 --> 00:29:23,519 for a future live event like this. We went back to the Virginia State 372 00:29:23,559 --> 00:29:27,039 Police, because of course they don't tell you that they're doing this, which 373 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:33,200 heaven forbid, they keep the families informed. We expressed what I just said 374 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,799 to you, and the agent, who I think is actually very sharp, 375 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,160 came back to us a couple of days later and he dealt with Jeannette. 376 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,680 Remember I'm not a family member to Robin Edwards, so I don't officially have 377 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:47,359 a role here. Jeannette is next to Ken. They came back and said, 378 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,480 we're sorry, the evidence already went to the lab and we can't call 379 00:29:51,519 --> 00:29:56,319 it back. So we were disappointed. But I talked to Jeanette about it 380 00:29:56,359 --> 00:29:59,680 at the time and I said, I can't speak for your family, but 381 00:30:00,119 --> 00:30:03,599 from my point of view, if this is the last shot we have, 382 00:30:03,359 --> 00:30:07,799 let's take it. We're not getting any younger. More than half the mothers 383 00:30:07,799 --> 00:30:12,279 and fathers, the moms and dads of the victims and the Colonial Parkway murders 384 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:18,119 have gone to their graves waiting for answers in this case. So Jeannette and 385 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,400 I, talking over the phone that night, said time's a wasting Let's go 386 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:26,079 even if it means that's the last bit of evidence from Robin's rape kit. 387 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:32,440 Let's burn it if we have to, because some of the tests consume the 388 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,759 evidence. So they came back to us. They said they were unable to 389 00:30:36,799 --> 00:30:40,839 get a result, which does happen. And I'm not criticizing anybody. The 390 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,519 good news is that they kept going. And I have to give the Virginia 391 00:30:44,559 --> 00:30:48,799 State Police and the Virginia Department of Forensic Sciences a shout out here. They 392 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,880 kept going. They took the evidence back from the first lab that had struck 393 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,960 out, and they sent it to another independent lab. I think I know 394 00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:00,240 who it is, but I won't say because I'm not sure, but other 395 00:31:00,599 --> 00:31:06,200 very well respected lab did the tests a second time and their equipment and their 396 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:11,319 parameters were different, and they're the ones that got the result. So they 397 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,640 stuck with it, even though Jeannette and I had both said if this burns 398 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,960 the last bit of evidence in Robin's case, then so be it. We're 399 00:31:21,039 --> 00:31:26,000 thrilled they actually took the gamble and this is what resulted in Alan Wade Wilmer 400 00:31:26,119 --> 00:31:30,799 being identified as the suspect. Props all the way around. I just wanted 401 00:31:30,799 --> 00:31:33,920 to tell you that story, tying into what you're saying, thank you, 402 00:31:34,079 --> 00:31:40,039 And one last thing. I know the truck has played a major role in 403 00:31:40,319 --> 00:31:44,200 trying to garner tips and stuff. Do you know if he had access to 404 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:48,240 any other vehicles? And I'm thinking specifically, I know you and your brother. 405 00:31:48,359 --> 00:31:52,559 Chris did an episode with Bill and Christian probably a year or two back, 406 00:31:52,759 --> 00:31:56,160 and he had said on that episode that night when he was on the 407 00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:01,920 park Way at around four am, saw a van speeding out of the Ringfield 408 00:32:02,279 --> 00:32:07,400 Plantation area, acting in a very suspicious manner, and so it made me 409 00:32:07,519 --> 00:32:12,359 think, are there other vehicles out there that Wilmer or some of the people 410 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,640 on the shortlist might have had access to that fit that identification of that vehicle. 411 00:32:17,319 --> 00:32:22,319 Yeah, Chris. Chris was coming home that night from Richmond and he 412 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,759 saw that van just pulled right out and it was driving erradically. It turned 413 00:32:25,799 --> 00:32:30,519 around and came up behind him and was driving erradically and passed him. He 414 00:32:30,599 --> 00:32:34,960 thought that strange. People don't do that on the parkway. He's going to 415 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,279 get a ticket. He just he remembers it very vividly. As he was 416 00:32:37,319 --> 00:32:43,000 going by, he looked over and saw a car on the overlook. Had 417 00:32:43,039 --> 00:32:46,960 no idea in a million years that was his brother's car, and kept going. 418 00:32:47,119 --> 00:32:51,720 And to this day I feel the same way too. But I just 419 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,160 know that van had something to do with it. I just know it. 420 00:32:54,759 --> 00:32:59,000 So yes, So do we know that Wilmer had access to other cars? 421 00:32:59,079 --> 00:33:02,200 Is that's what you're asking about. I'm trying to figure it. Is this 422 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,960 something we're trying to be careful. We're trying to be careful on some stuff 423 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,440 here. The FBI and the Virginia's Day Police have looked at this in connection 424 00:33:09,559 --> 00:33:14,160 with Wilmer. They have looked at a number of vehicles that he drove over 425 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:19,000 the years. Nothing so far that they've found matches the kind of vehicle that 426 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,000 Chris call saw on the Parkway that night. I think that's a responsible answer. 427 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:27,400 My mom would be proud of me. Yeah, so the party line 428 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:31,400 is just the truck for now. He did drive different trucks, and he 429 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:37,640 did have access to different vehicles. The work that he was in mostly involved 430 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:44,759 the use of pickup trucks, and Wilmer does not seem to have owned a 431 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:51,680 van that would match that description. Thank you, thank you. You're listening 432 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:57,079 to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. 433 00:34:05,519 --> 00:34:10,920 We're back here at mindover Murder. Sure, come on down. We're 434 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:21,119 not charging for the questions the right height. Okay, So there have been 435 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:27,440 serial killers in the past who have killed in concert with another person an accomplice, 436 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,719 and then also had murders that they committed single Do you think it's possible 437 00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:37,880 that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior worked in concert with someone for the couple murders and 438 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:45,079 then singularly on say miss Howell's case. And the reason I bring that up 439 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:50,960 is it seems to me these couple murders were very well organized. He took 440 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,119 a lot of time to dispose of bodies, move cars, do things he 441 00:34:54,119 --> 00:34:58,880 didn't need to do. But when it came to Miss Howell, from the 442 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,960 sounds of it, he raped her and he discarded her alongside the road. 443 00:35:04,199 --> 00:35:08,639 Very sloppy, very unorganized. So do you think it's possible that there was 444 00:35:08,679 --> 00:35:14,760 someone who worked in concert with him for the Colonial Parkway murders, yet he 445 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:19,920 singularly committed a number of other murders. I think that, And I want 446 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,320 to be careful that I'm not speaking out of turn, largely because I'm not 447 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,239 a profiler, I'm not an investigator. I did not go to school for 448 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,880 any of this. I'm, like I said, I'm a public educator. 449 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:34,880 But I do think that it is entirely possible that, based on what we 450 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:39,719 have heard from our various profiler friends and psychologist friends, that what serial killers 451 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:44,000 will try to do is they will try to challenge themselves, just up the 452 00:35:44,079 --> 00:35:47,800 ante and up the excitement. I think that you've made some excellent points that 453 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:52,639 anyone who's investigating this case should definitely look into. So do I think it's 454 00:35:52,639 --> 00:35:55,760 a possibility. Yeah, But I also think that, like I said before, 455 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,800 and I know I son wishy washy on this, but I'm just trying 456 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:00,679 to be responsible about it. I think there is so much that we don't 457 00:36:00,679 --> 00:36:04,840 know about Wilmar at this point. We still need to gather more information. 458 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,280 But do I take your point and do I agree with you? I do. 459 00:36:07,599 --> 00:36:10,599 I think it is possible. I think we need to learn more to 460 00:36:10,599 --> 00:36:15,719 be able to answer definitively. But absolutely I think your points are excellent. 461 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:22,679 We had interviewed Jim Fitzgerald and Ray Carr to FBI profilers, and one of 462 00:36:22,679 --> 00:36:25,519 the things they said, which is very interesting, and again one of the 463 00:36:25,519 --> 00:36:30,960 reasons why we started this podcast is Kristin and I thought we've met so many 464 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:37,679 interesting people we could share these interesting people with an audience. So here you're 465 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:42,000 talking to two FBI profilers, one of whom was key to solving the unibomber 466 00:36:42,199 --> 00:36:46,320 case. He did the linguistic profile that led to the unibomber's identification. Fits 467 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:50,039 is very quick to push back on the idea that he did it by himself. 468 00:36:50,079 --> 00:36:53,000 This is all part of a very large team. They talked about something 469 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:58,199 which is very interesting and educational for Kristin and me, which is they talk 470 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:02,760 about organized defenders and dis organized defenders, and clearly whoever committed the Colonial Parkway 471 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:08,039 murders is approaching things in a certain way, and there is a very strong 472 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:13,239 it may be bizarre, it may be distasteful, but there's a strong sense 473 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,519 that he or they are doing these things in a certain way for a certain 474 00:37:16,559 --> 00:37:21,880 reason, and as I mentioned before, even staging the vehicles to create certain 475 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:27,440 impressions. But they also mentioned that somebody who's very systematic like that could also 476 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:31,280 be opportunistic. Yesterday, my friend Keith and I went out and we went 477 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:37,400 to the site where the Zodiac Club had been, and then he took me 478 00:37:37,519 --> 00:37:42,480 to where Teresa Howell's body was found. And then I was rereading information this 479 00:37:42,559 --> 00:37:46,360 morning about the Howell case, and we had spoken to Teresa's niece last night 480 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:51,000 on the phone and learned a lot more than we knew about that case. 481 00:37:51,599 --> 00:37:57,440 That could be an opportunistic situation, one of our other profilers said, Laura 482 00:37:57,519 --> 00:38:00,159 Richards said to us, it isn't even necessary for us Allen Wilworth to go 483 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:05,079 inside the bar. He can hang out in the parking lot. He maybe 484 00:38:05,159 --> 00:38:08,400 he's watching for a single woman by herself, maybe a woman who might have 485 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,760 had a bit too much to drink. Next time, he's swooping in there, 486 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,239 her judgment might be impaired. And again I'm not passing any value judgment 487 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:22,159 in any of this. That isn't the mo as we understand it, of 488 00:38:22,199 --> 00:38:27,079 the Colonial Park murders. With this highly organized, systematic approach, I'm going 489 00:38:27,159 --> 00:38:30,639 to go out and hunt and kill couples. The impulse strikes him, he 490 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:36,360 sees an opportunity and he goes with it. And this is what Fits and 491 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:42,039 Ray were telling us about opportunistic offenders. And you can be both. It 492 00:38:42,159 --> 00:38:45,199 may depend on the situation. And this is where you end up with situations 493 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:51,880 where someone who has preyed on a particular age group of individuals and then suddenly 494 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,880 they'll rape someone that's far younger or older or whatever it is, and it 495 00:38:54,920 --> 00:39:00,800 seems outside the sphere, but it was just an opportunity presented itself and they 496 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:04,119 went with it. One of the things that all the profilers have said to 497 00:39:04,199 --> 00:39:07,480 us is you have to remember that a killer like Alan Wade Wilmer Senior is 498 00:39:07,559 --> 00:39:14,480 thinking about killing all the time, and he's thinking about his next kill if 499 00:39:14,599 --> 00:39:17,199 something kind of lands in his lap. If I don't mean to make that 500 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:21,599 sound like I'm being flipped, because I'm not he may go with it, 501 00:39:21,679 --> 00:39:27,199 and that's where something like the Teresa Howell murder could fit that kind of scenario. 502 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,719 The one comparison that fitzmade that has been sticking with me for quite a 503 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:35,400 while is the fact that he called he called a serial killer like Alan Wade 504 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:39,000 Wilmer and apex predator. That has been really circulating over and over in my 505 00:39:39,039 --> 00:39:43,000 mind. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that he would 506 00:39:43,159 --> 00:39:46,320 take the opportunity that happened to present itself. And I don't think it's out 507 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:50,599 of the possibility that he could have changed or altered his mom or the people 508 00:39:50,639 --> 00:39:52,119 that he worked with, or that he could have killed on his own. 509 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,880 I think that with someone like Wilmer, if you want to use the label 510 00:39:55,880 --> 00:40:00,400 apex predator, I think that there are any number of ways that he could 511 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:04,039 have been operating over the years, and that the FBI and the VESP need 512 00:40:04,079 --> 00:40:07,960 due diligence and look at all of them. Like Kristin, I'm also a 513 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,880 civilian, but you said something super interesting a second ago, and I don't 514 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:15,519 want to let you go without highlighting it. I could totally see him working 515 00:40:15,559 --> 00:40:21,360 in a concert with an accomplice or an assistant, as Kristen said, could 516 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,079 be a brother, could be somebody else, and then at another time working 517 00:40:24,199 --> 00:40:28,719 on his own. He's been described to us by law enforcement agents who are 518 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,840 working this case as a loaner. I don't think that necessarily means that he's 519 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:36,679 always working alone. Thank you, thank you, thank you. More questions 520 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:38,920 or comments. Yes, now we have to fix the mic so it works 521 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:44,519 for a tall person. Hi, guys, thank you for being here. 522 00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,320 My name's Heather. I'm sorry for your loss, and I'm sorry that it's 523 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:52,679 been so long that you guys haven't had any answers. But my question is 524 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,440 probably what everyone in this room is wondering. Besides passing out the flyers for 525 00:40:55,519 --> 00:41:00,480 you, how can we help you? You have a very active audiods of 526 00:41:00,519 --> 00:41:06,360 people that care about your cause and the victims and want to help you find 527 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,880 answers. If his DNA being loaded into codis is a rule, are there 528 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:15,360 signatures that are needed? What can we do to help you? Is my 529 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:19,199 question. This is such a great question, and we have spent the last 530 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,480 couple of months since January eighth, racking our brains and asking ourselves the exact 531 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:28,639 same thing. Because you all are wonderful and people have reached out immediately and 532 00:41:28,639 --> 00:41:30,639 said exactly the same thing, what can we do, how can we help? 533 00:41:31,159 --> 00:41:35,559 And we are still working very hard to figure out what is it that 534 00:41:35,599 --> 00:41:38,039 we need. More to the point, I think, what are we allowed 535 00:41:38,199 --> 00:41:43,039 to do? People have asked, for example, hey, can we support 536 00:41:43,119 --> 00:41:46,280 evidence testing monetarily? We do not have access to the evidence, so we 537 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:51,400 cannot accept those sorts of donations. We are still trying to parse out for 538 00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:53,719 ourselves what are the best ways that y'all can help. But the number one 539 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,880 thing that you can do, like right now leaving here tonight, is please 540 00:41:58,199 --> 00:42:02,039 take our information with you. Hand out those postcards to anybody that you know 541 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:07,960 who may be aware of Wilmer, lived adjacent to him, anyone who lives 542 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,519 in Lancaster County. The more information that we can get to the FBI and 543 00:42:10,559 --> 00:42:15,400 the VSP, the better. Anything else beyond that, petitions and so on 544 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:17,480 and so forth. That is still stuff that we are trying to sess out. 545 00:42:17,519 --> 00:42:21,400 But as soon as we have that information, please believe me, we 546 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:23,679 will tell you. We want to put we want to put all of you 547 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:28,239 to work. We really want all of the help and support that you guys 548 00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:30,079 have given. You know, and I know that the family is appreciated and 549 00:42:30,119 --> 00:42:35,119 all of us who are working with them appreciated too. Did I cover it 550 00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:39,239 or do you want to know? One bit of clarification. We did approach 551 00:42:39,599 --> 00:42:45,199 the FBI a couple of years ago because we were getting a lot of feedback 552 00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:49,800 from a very positive feedback from Mind over Murder listeners and people that are very 553 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:54,639 supportive of the families. The Call family had been very successful in raising funds 554 00:42:54,679 --> 00:42:59,519 as needed some years ago. This is back in the eighties. That was 555 00:42:59,559 --> 00:43:04,000 something that we had talked amongst ourselves about being willing to do, but we 556 00:43:04,039 --> 00:43:08,480 wanted to earmark this for forensic testing, and the FBI actually said we cannot 557 00:43:08,639 --> 00:43:14,239 accept gifts of this type. And I said to the senior agent, it's 558 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,119 not a gift, but they refused the money. They didn't want to take 559 00:43:17,159 --> 00:43:22,360 the money. Now, the good news is there seems to be especially with 560 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,320 the traction that we're seeing now in the case where we finally identified a suspect 561 00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:29,800 and started to get some answers, it's not all the answers we're looking for. 562 00:43:30,199 --> 00:43:35,639 They seem to be a lot more open to supporting advanced forensic testing. 563 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:37,800 So this is something Kristin and I are really trying to figure out. We 564 00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:43,079 don't want to ask you all for things that are a waste of your time 565 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,039 or your money, or your support, your energy, your goodwill. We're 566 00:43:46,079 --> 00:43:51,239 trying to be real careful about this, but it is definitely something we're thinking 567 00:43:51,280 --> 00:44:00,239 about. Thank you, Thank you. Last questions, comments, criticisms all 568 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:04,000 right, Oh, go right ahead, No apologies necessary. Michell, just 569 00:44:04,119 --> 00:44:07,639 she feels that intuition that the white van was involved in her brother's case. 570 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:13,000 How do you, as Kathy's brother, feel that Wilmer was involved in yours? 571 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:19,519 Wilmer checks a lot of boxes potentially in Kathy and Becky's murder. And 572 00:44:19,639 --> 00:44:22,760 remember when the murder series started, it's not for another year that we have 573 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:28,119 another murder, the murder of Robin Edwards and David Nobling. The FBI told 574 00:44:28,199 --> 00:44:31,639 us from very early on that they were looking at watermen and there were a 575 00:44:31,679 --> 00:44:37,159 lot of things about the circumstances of how Kathy and Becky died. I won't 576 00:44:37,159 --> 00:44:40,880 get into the graphic details here, but they thought that a waterman was a 577 00:44:42,119 --> 00:44:45,880 very likely suspect, and they did look at a number of people that fit 578 00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:52,039 that category, including we believe Alan Wade Wilmer Senior. There are other suspects 579 00:44:52,079 --> 00:44:57,320 that are also pretty viable, particularly now we're talking about Kathy and Becky's case. 580 00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:00,719 Remember the Colonial Parkway murders may not be as right up one, two, 581 00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:05,880 three, four series here. I could see Wilmer being identified as Kathy 582 00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:07,400 and Becky's killer. But I think we're just going to have to let this 583 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:12,599 one play out in terms of they are doing a lot of good work here, 584 00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:15,920 and I think law enforcement and the investigative teams are more motivated than they've 585 00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:21,639 ever been before. It's really hard for me to be patient. After thirty 586 00:45:21,679 --> 00:45:23,599 seven years, I think we have to give this one a little bit more 587 00:45:23,639 --> 00:45:28,800 time. Bill Kristen Joyce, Folks, I have a comment. I want 588 00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:30,440 to give an announcement. My name is Ed Taylor, Junior, and I'm 589 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:35,440 president of a historic organization clear up in the western end of the state of 590 00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:42,559 Maryland entitled the Cumberland Historic Cemetery Organization and where the group last year that installed 591 00:45:42,559 --> 00:45:47,159 the monument for Joyce's brother Keith call at Rosewell Memorial Cemetery over in Gloucester County. 592 00:45:47,639 --> 00:45:51,960 I have been running this organization for forty years, and we have erected 593 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:57,920 monuments from Florida to northern Pennsylvania through the two hundred and fifty year American spectrum 594 00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:00,840 from the Revolution to current day. And we've erected almost a little over nine 595 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:05,400 hundred monuments. And I will say that out of all the monuments we ever 596 00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,039 put it was in the ground. It was such an honor and a special 597 00:46:08,079 --> 00:46:12,880 experience to do this one. Because this story is still going on, and 598 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,880 tonight I came down here. It was a six and a half hour drive 599 00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:19,960 to make the announ announcement. In twenty twenty eight or twenty nine, at 600 00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,280 the end of this decade, we will be installing a rather large monument. 601 00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:27,559 I'll know tomorrow morning, one hundred percent for sure what cemetery it's going to 602 00:46:27,559 --> 00:46:30,800 be in. It'll be in Gloucester County to all the Colonial Park Wy murder 603 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:36,360 victims. The reason why we're waiting several years, as everyone in this room 604 00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:38,960 knows and has heard tonight, this story is still being written. Kristin Dilly, 605 00:46:39,119 --> 00:46:44,800 Bill, Thomas Joyce Call and Blaine Pardo have already committed that they will 606 00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:49,480 be monument committee members and between the few of us. We will decide what 607 00:46:49,519 --> 00:46:52,000 will go on the monument, and it will be a rather large monument containing 608 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,360 the pictures of the victims. Who knows, by the time this rolls around, 609 00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:59,519 there may be other victims other than just the nine that we know of 610 00:46:59,559 --> 00:47:02,880 tonight. As the years go by, we'll have more information on this project. 611 00:47:04,199 --> 00:47:07,039 And before I sit down, I want to make a public comment. 612 00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:10,920 If this country had more people like Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley, we wouldn't 613 00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:15,679 have half the problems we have in this damn country right now. So let's 614 00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:23,039 give these folks a truly good hand. Now, thank you, thank you, 615 00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:28,000 thank you, thank you. Ed Now we're both blushing, I think 616 00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:30,440 we have time for one last question. All right. My name is Kim. 617 00:47:31,119 --> 00:47:34,800 My sister and I are both here tonight, and we grew up in 618 00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:39,360 Williamsburg. We are their ages. We were on the parkway doing things we 619 00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:45,880 shouldn't have been doing at our tag in our teenage years, and yet it 620 00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,039 amazes me that we knew about it, But it was amazing how much we 621 00:47:49,159 --> 00:47:52,119 didn't know about it. Obviously, social media has changed that. So what 622 00:47:52,199 --> 00:47:55,079 I was going to suggest and going on with, I don't know where she 623 00:47:55,159 --> 00:47:58,519 went. But the woman that wanted to thank you and ask what we could 624 00:47:58,559 --> 00:48:01,039 do to help. We all, I think, came here because of social 625 00:48:01,079 --> 00:48:07,159 media and heard about it that way. With your permission, would you consider 626 00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:10,440 it a help if we were to take the pamphlets that you guys have given 627 00:48:10,519 --> 00:48:15,039 us tonight, maybe post them on our Facebook pages. Obviously I grew up 628 00:48:15,039 --> 00:48:19,920 in Williamsburg. I still have tons of friends like my sister does that knew 629 00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,360 about everything that was going on. And if we all have that same kind 630 00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:27,480 of connection, then if we all posted it and maybe put the FBI link 631 00:48:27,599 --> 00:48:30,880 or put invite them to the podcast or something that just you know, more 632 00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:35,760 people on the local level may see it that haven't seen it yet. So 633 00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:37,840 maybe some of the folks that are here tonight, if they have social media, 634 00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:42,079 they can do that and maybe could lead to smart tips. We would 635 00:48:42,119 --> 00:48:44,480 love that. We would love that. Thank you very much. Yeah, 636 00:48:44,519 --> 00:48:47,440 absolutely, please do feel free to take those, share those, post them 637 00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:52,320 everywhere. Our goal is to get as much information out about the case and 638 00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:54,800 about Wilmer. That looks like we're almost out of time, you thought. 639 00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:59,800 The one thing I would add is I love the idea. I just think 640 00:49:00,159 --> 00:49:04,519 in the comments. We'll try to avoid getting into what Kim and her sister 641 00:49:04,639 --> 00:49:12,760 and their friends were into back in the day. She see you taught her 642 00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:16,800 how to use social media and no, it's a wonderful idea. I think 643 00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:19,960 we're going to wrap it up. That is going to do it for this 644 00:49:20,079 --> 00:49:23,159 episode of mind Over Murder live at the Yorktown Library. Thank you so much 645 00:49:23,159 --> 00:49:37,079 for joining us. We'll see you next time. Please take postcards, that's 646 00:49:37,159 --> 00:49:43,719 why we printed them, and thank you all. Thank you to Beth and 647 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:46,280 the library staff. They did an incredible job. Thank you very much, 648 00:49:46,760 --> 00:50:04,079 so much. D Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog 649 00:50:04,199 --> 00:50:09,039 Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art 650 00:50:09,079 --> 00:50:15,199 is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over 651 00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:20,480 Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. You can follow us on 652 00:50:20,519 --> 00:50:23,480 Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the 653 00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:29,400 Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on 654 00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:35,320 Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.