You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas.
I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now
trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other
victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway
murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together
with Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a
researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social
media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner
in crime, Bill Thomas. Thank you so much for coming. We're so
excited to have you here for this live podcasting event. This is a very
first time we've hosted a podcast, let alone one that was also live recording
at the same time, so we're excited about it. I don't know if
you're familiar with the Mind over Murder podcast. How many people listen? Wonderful,
kay, So I'm guessing you might know two of these people up here
and maybe more. We wanted to welcome Kristin Dilly and Bill Thomas along with
their guest No Joyce, Call Canada, who's the sister of Keith Call.
If anybody deserves any applause. Yes, this is definitely a different format for
them, but they're going to start with the presentation and then there will be
questions and answers afterwards, So hold your questions until then and you'll be able
to hang out on this awesome mic for those questions. Without further ado,
I'm going to hand it off to Kristin and Bill and we'll go ahead and
start with our traditional opening. So thank you so much to everybody you're listening
to the Mind of a Murder podcast. I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas,
and we're here for a live podcasting event at the Yorktown Library and this
is definitely a first for us. Thank you to everybody who came out tonight.
We appreciate you so much. Give yourselves a round of applause. We're
coming out with us. Thank you. All right, are you ready for
questions? We welcome them. Will ask you to step up to the mic
and seriously come up. Line up before the first person asked a question,
keep in mind now your question is going to go out on the world Wide
Web. If you don't want to say your full name or you want to
use an alias, feel free and we're serious. You don't have to say
my name is John Smith. You can just say call me John or whatever.
I'm the second Bill in the room, so call me Bill. Okay.
And I noticed Bill that you keep mentioning these wonderful people in Lancaster County
that you seem to admire and appreciate their coming forward with information. Back in
nineteen eighty five, we had a good friend of ours in Lancaster County who
lived close to Alan Wilmer Senior. She was murdered. A man was accused
of that murder and found guilty, and after thirty five years he was exonerated.
In the meantime, the true murderer escape the end of the law,
and a lot of things happened then. I think a lot of it was
corruption on behalf of the prosecutors and the police, and they've never acknowledged that.
I'd like to somehow advise the state police and the FBI to come forward
and be honest about this. A lot of people are not coming forward with
information because they don't trust the police. And in this case in Lancaster County
in nineteen eighty five, there's a lot of good reasons not to trust the
police, local sheriff prosecutors, as well as the state police and the FBI.
This was a loved one of ours who was taken from us. I
come from a family of eight kids, and this woman who was murdered came
from a family of nine kids, and our family's aligned. Her brother was
my best friend, her sister was my sister's best friend. And it still
hurts this very day that has not been solved. But I must call you
out on the carpet today also because there was no mention of her today in
this despite the fact that he lived very close to her. He committed these
other murders he's been found guilty of. But tonight you neglected to mention her
name, and so please tell us who you're referring to. I'm not going
to say her name. Oh I'm sorry. So I would love to talk
with you afterwards, and I do apologize. It's your name that you know.
How many murders were committed in nineteen eighty five within a mile of Alan
wid Wilmer Senior right with respect to her family, I just don't feel comfortable
saying her name without it. I understand, and I think I know who
you're referring to, and I would love to talk with you afterwards. But
we mean no one any disrespect by failing to mention them. But I appreciate
everything you're saying, Bill, and I would absolutely like to And Bill,
I do appreciate yours and Christian's work on this because it does bring to light
a lot of things that need to be brought to light. So thank you
for that. And I don't mean to be such an antagonist either, but
no, you're totally fine thanks to the opportunity. Thank you. In prayers
out to everybody and all the families who have lost members of their families.
Thank you, Bill. I was just staying here supporting my friend Bill because
she was a very good friend of mine. Matter of fact, she introduced
us and played basketball with her. So when all this came out and the
connections and we just it just blew our minds because I'm familiar with all of
this, and so it is this is wonderful because we really want answers.
We want the state police FBI, whatever needs to be done with Cotis and
all of that, to just I'm not going to use the word closure,
but just to want some answers. Thank you, Oh, thank you.
I appreciate it. Thank you. Hello, my name is Lorie. You've
gotten multiple emails and posts from me. Okay, sure you're aware. I
would like to go back to Lancaster County as well. In nineteen eighty five,
the population of Lancaster County was ten four hundred people. Nineteen seventy six,
there was a horrific murder of the Rogers family in their home. The
Rogers family lived just down the street from a man named Gary Logan Langford.
I'm not going to use any names here people who haven't been prosecuted or charged.
I promise. It's my understanding that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior also lived very
close to the Rogers family. You are correct, it was Dale and shar
Rogers. They were shot with a rifle, they believe in their home.
Their home has frontage to the I'm going to mispronounce the heck out of this
Carodamin River with a long deck because they or Pierre should say, because they
had a sailboat once they were murdered. Whomever murdered them left the home in
their Volkswagen bug, drove it about two or three miles to the main road,
and deserted it there. And if you can't see how that could be
connected to the murders of these young people with a car often being moved for
no good reason. A couple being killed. Now, granted it was in
their home, it wasn't in a car, But I honestly believe that the
Virginia State Police and FBI, who both investigated this in the first place,
need to take a good hard look at it now. The other thing I
want to mention is Gary Logan. Lankford was convicted of raping Olivia Thorndike in
nineteen eighty three. A week or maybe even just days before his trial for
that rape, she was murdered in her home in Henricho County, Virginia,
which is what led me to your cases in the first place. She was
found at the base of the stairs, having been stamped. And just prior
to that, another name, Richard Slaughter, had phoned Olivia's mother and over
the phone said to her, Olivia should not have charged Gary. She's going
to be dead or she is dead something to that effect. He was found
guilty of making that phone call and Henraiko County Lease did charge him with slaughter.
He was actually charged with Thorndyke's murder, and then a key witness in
the case. This is a rumor, the key witness in the case wasn't
going to testify. I moved out of the area. She was so afraid,
so they had to actually withdraw those charges. Then we have Alan Wade
Wilmer Senior, who lived just down the street and also participated in these murders.
In a county of ten four hundred people, you have three predators,
two actually convicted of rape, one charged with a murder that was dropped.
As to Richard Slaughter, he was actually one of the first people in the
country ever found civilly liable, not criminal, the laws weren't there yet,
unfortunately, but actually found civilly liable for stalking a woman in Maine. So
I guess I don't know if it's a question so much as a statement,
but I find it just appalling that they can't put this all together, have
another look at the Rogers murder, the Thorndyke murder. I just find it
odd three of them would be in that very small area and not know each
other and not cooperate in some of these crimes. We totally agree we're not
experts in those cases, but we've absolutely been taking a look at them.
And one of the things that you know, our new friends from Lancaster have
been incredibly helpful. There are a lot of people that live in Lancaster County,
or have lived in Lancaster County, grew up there, et cetera,
who have brought I think both of the cases that you've mentioned so far.
One of the things that we're hoping is that this new media attention to the
Colonial Parkway murders and all of these other unsolved rapes and murders in Virginia,
that they get another look. And I completely agree with your point, and
I think Kristin feels the same. That I've driven through Lancaster County. It's
a beautiful place. I can't believe how many unsolved rapes and murders there are.
When we get to the place where people are explaining this to us,
and we get to the part where we're like explaining to us the proximity,
just how close this is. And I said to Kristin, I feel like
the Wilmer family are surrounded by violence and all of these unsolved rapes and murders.
I don't know if it's incompetence or corruption or some combination thereof, but
it seems like it was open season up there. And it's amazing how many
times the Wilmer brothers names come up in connection with all of these unsolved murders.
I think there's absolutely something to it, and you're I think both of
the last two speakers are definitely onto something. I'd like to make one more
point. The speaker before me the murder he mentioned the day that the grand
jury came back and charged the man who served thirty five years wrongly for that
murder, was also the day that they charged Gary Logan Langford for the murder
of the Rogers family. And he was twice tried and twice acquitted for that
or I'm sorry, hung jury, I should say. And the other thing
that really bothers me is the murder of the Rogers family that Langford was tried
for. They had hair evidence that was found in the car, and they
had a fingerprint that did not match him. Why didn't they dig deeper?
Do they still have that evidence, can it be processed? Totally agreed,
Totally agreed, and thank you. As I think next time we have to
sort people out by height. Now we're going in the opposite direction. That's
not a shot at our petite friends there, Robert Gray, Hey, Robert
pat you guys in person. So one question I have is there any indication
of an overlap or some tie with Ron Little? And you want to take
it that you've come across there's nothing definitive. We're hearing reports that put Wilmer
and Little in some of the same bars and nightclubs. That's not enough from
our perspective to say that there's a relationship there. But for instance, both
of them have been mentioned to us in the last few months as being regulars
at Club Zodiac, the Zodiac club where Teresa Howell may have met her rapist
and murderer. It's something we're definitely looking at, and we hope that our
partners in law enforcement are doing the same thing. On a different note,
any of the tips that have come in about Wilmer harassing people on or near
the Parkway, was there ever any indication that there was another person present with
him during those tips that have come in, not in the tips that were
rooted through us. Now we're hoping that there are dozens of other tips that
have come forward that you don't need to talk to Kristen and Bill to talk
to the FBI or the Virginia State Police. The stories we've heard, he
seems to be the only person. Interestingly, the stories we've heard all involve
that same very distinctive blue green truck. We don't ever seem to have another
person in a vehicle with him in the stories we've heard so far. So
at this point in time, do you think, if he is the suspect
in at least more than one of these cases, that he was acting alone
or there was an accomplice after the fact. I'd be curious to hear all
three of your personal opinions on that, especially with the moving of the vehicle.
Let me let the ladies go first on this one. Okay, that
was a total cop out, but now I can think of a good answer.
I didn't have any time to do that, but our Oh, I'm
sorry, would you like to go second? You're good? I mean.
Talking to a number of our different profiler friends, Jim Fitzgerald and Clemente,
they have both put forward scenarios where you could do this singly or you could
do this with an accomplice. I don't think we know enough about Wilmer yet
to be able to say definitively one way or the other was he working with
someone? And I know a lot of people are wondering could he have been
working with say, we don't have that information yet. I don't think I
would like to learn more about Wilmer's movements and patterns before I commit to an
answer, and they know that sounds wishy washing it. I'm sorry, but
I want to operate on the principle of the more information I have, the
better informed I can be. And I don't have that information yet. I've
been It's a podcast, changed my mind many times due to gears on what
I think and even where I think his car was when I look back.
My answer too is I don't know. But a lot of these victims were
young and strong and fit, and it makes me wonder you really had to
have a lot of control, because I know for a fact my brother would
have fought, and I can only know that Cassandra would have too, and
so it just would not be surprised if he did. I don't know that.
I've been out to all of the crime scenes with Kristen. Sometimes with
the actual investigators, we've struggled with something and I don't know the answer to
this one yet. But there are times when we've thought with the movement of
the vehicles and the staging of the crime scenes, and that's actually one of
the elements of the Colonial Parkray murders is that these crime scenes seem to be
stage to create certain impressions by the killer or killers. Sometimes we've said,
though, when you're out there stomping around, this would be a heck of
a lot simpler at the end of the killing part and the staging part if
he had a ride, if he had somebody to pick him up. Now,
we didn't know who the he was at that point, but the assumption
in saying that is that there's one killer. But then when you start looking
at the logistics of moving the vehicles around and everything, and I've had it
explained to me and to us how it could work with one person. But
there have been a number of times when we've looked at each other and said,
this would be a lot simpler with two people. Even if this person
isn't necessarily participating in the raping and the murdering. Maybe this is the kind
of person who would pick you up, no questions asked. Do you know
what I mean? I hope this comes out because to us this has been
one of the greatest mysteries about how did these cases work and how did things
actually transpire? And on that note, I'll close. I know you talk
a lot about there's no such thing as closure, but you want answers other
than identifying a perpetrator. What are some of the answers you guys are most
looking to have at this point in time. And what do you think is
realistic after this many years and the potential that the primary perpetrator is deceased.
No, yeah, you're the And where is my brother's remains? Yeah?
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. I'd go with the why. And by
the way, I said this today to some folks earlier, I think sometimes
we're trying to apply logic to an inherently illogical act. It's not like I
got in a bar fight with somebody and he hits me on the head and
my head hits the bar and I end up dead. My point is not
that it was very smart that the two of you were drunk Bill and got
into a fight in a bar, which, by the way, has never
happened. But I think sometimes we're trying to apply logic, and we know
you well and you ask really good questions, we appreciate it. Sometimes we
might be stretching our imagination because we're dealing with people that are not necessarily rational
people. I think we're talking about sociopaths here. I think sometimes the answers
that we're going to get are not necessarily going to be satisfactory. Although I'm
totally on board with choice. I want to know, why did you kill
these people? Why did you kill my sister? How does that make any
sense? Thanks so much for your time, Thank you, Thank you.
There have to be more questions. My name's Chris. I've lived in this
area all my life. I was a police officer in the eighties. I
was not involved in any of these cases, but I have a comment more
than a question. These cases have interested me for years. I guess in
twenty twenty one or two, the Virginia State Police started a Virginia cold case
database. Yes, I was very encouraged by that, and I searched the
database and found that the two victims from the Ragged Island were in there,
but none of these other victims were in there at all, which really concerned
me because of all places to advocate and to hope for tips and look for
things to put out information. I was encouraged and felt like that would be
a good place to do it. I did send a feedback for him back
to the State Police and asked that question. The response I got was that
it is strictly a voluntary database. For law enforcement agencies who decide that they
want to enter these people into the database, they can. It's basically a
homicides area and a missing person's area. Now I last looked at it probably
last year sometime, and they were still not in there. I guess what
I would ask tonight, maybe in the future, maybe you could add that
to your list of steps. Personally, I would like to see that be
similar to what you were saying Bill earlier about some mandatory things for them to
do would be to put unsolved cases into that database. With that said,
at least with the people, the families and all that are looking for some
information and looking for solving these crimes and finding the remains of those that are
still listed as missing. I think it's absolutely essential that they at least add
those victims to the database. On my list of disappointments with the Federal Bureau
of Investigation, which seems to go longer by the day, is things like
that, the fact that the FBI doesn't put our loved ones cases on the
unsolved database. Because the Unsolved database it's not perfect, but it's a good
start every single unsolved homicide. If law enforcement agencies aren't going to do the
right thing and put up their goddamn cold cases on a database that was set
up by the state legislature, then I guess we're going to have to make
it mandatory because they're not doing their job. They say they want help,
they say they want public support, they say they want information. It's very
frustrating to have one of the double homicides in the Colonial Parkway murders up there,
which is great, and that information is really helpful, but where are
all of the others. And the FBI, unfortunately is and I know you're
listening, is they're infamous for not participating in these kind of initiatives. We
interviewed the Murder Accountability Project, which is a fascinating interview on Mind over Murder,
talking to Thomas Hargrove, who set that organization up, and they create
murder statistics for the United States because the United States Department of Justice won't do
their job and collect all this data, the FBI won't participate in those.
In a way, it feels because my sister and Rebecca Dowski died in a
national park, they don't count because the freaking FBI won't do their job,
even something as simple as putting them up in a database, which might actually
lead to a tip that could help solve a case. I think it's outrageous.
Thank you, Chris. I want to say thank you for thank you.
I know a lot of times we're talking too veterans and we say this,
but thank you for your service, and I think your observations are spot
on. We really appreciate it. Thank you very much. Thank you.
And speaking of veterans blankenship. My question is they said there was more people
involved in this, and nothing else has come out. I'm wondering what happened
to the other people. You understand what I'm saying. They said that people
were killed in a different place than where they were dropped off. Where does
all this go. Are you talking about in terms of accomplices? I can't
hear you, ma'am. I'm sorry. Are you talking about it in terms
of accomplices? Are you thinking of accomplices? Somebody that helped assistem? From
what I understand is they were killed. The two women were killed somewhere else
and brought over somewhere else. This guy could we agree. We don't have
any answers there, but you're absolutely right. It's frustrating. Now let me
ask you this. For some reason, don't forget to ask on the mic
so we can hear it on the podcast. For some reason, this guy
was writing a book on this. He had more information than the FBI.
He had pictures of the trunk and all that stuff. Makes me think he
had something else to do with it. We're actually hoping that our friend Blaine
Pardo and his daughter Victoria Hester, who co wrote the book A Special Kind
of Evil on the Colonial Parkway murders. We're actually hope oh is a person
waving the book in the back. It's a wonderful book, and we do
urge you to read it. We're actually hoping that Blaine will be our special
guest next month because He's a really smart guy and knows a lot about this
case, and we would dearly love to have him be our special guest.
He has said he would like to come to next month's podcast, and of
course Kristin and I looked at each other and said, oh no, we
want to get you up here and get you to answer some questions. Blaine
had a lot of great information, and he and Victoria did a fantastic job
with the book. I think you're absolutely right. There's a lot of open
questions Ray that need to be answered. Yes, thank you for thank you
for your service. The way off film and what's going on, and there's
a whole lot of stove move in there. I agreed, I agreed,
agreed, I agree. More questions and comments. We welcome them, all
them all. Right, Look, so we do someone Okay, So you've
done a lot of hard work over the years with your help and your friendships
that you made within law enforcement and the FBI. Out of the seventeen foias
that were denied before, have you ever gotten any feedback where those getting a
little bit lenient to be released to you. We've not had a lot of
luck with for you, Blaine and Victoria have had some luck. Interestingly,
it's usually with the secondary agencies. The primary investigative agencies usually have given all
of us the it's an open case. We can't answer those questions even to
this day. Interestingly, we've got some very good intelligence over the years from
agencies that attended briefings of various law enforcement agencies over the years. They've provided
good information, even to the point of sending us copies of handwritten notes that
the officers jotted down while they were discussing the cases for us so far,
the Foyer request, I'm sorry freedom of Information Act requests, which is supposed
to be about transparency and good government, He said, rolling his eyes,
I'm sorry, did that sound skeptical? We have not had a lot of
luck with Freedom of Information Act requests. Doesn't mean we won't keep trying.
And we've talked to some other podcasters and journalists and we're going to try some
new things. We'll keep trying. So far, we haven't had great results.
And then the last I know this has been asked many times, but
as of today, do you have any feedback of whether the hair that was
in Kathy's hands have been tested? I cannot get a straight answer from the
Federal Bureau of Investigation, thank you. Yeah, I'm running back up.
Apparently it has to be adjusted for Land of the Giants here. So the
talk of Foya's made me think of this question with Edward's nobling. Now a
perpetrator is identified, and I assume it's close to being closed or is it
still act. Oh, we got a lot of pushback. They said on
January eighth, the case was closed. Blaine Pardo, who is He's a
pitbull, He's a great He jumped on this even before Kristin and I had
a chance to even think about it. The response is, Oh, it's
not really a closed case. If it does close, would that open the
door for Foya's to come rolling through? We hope. I think part of
the reason why they're saying it's not closed is because they don't want that.
I don't think they want Bill Thomas and Kristen Dilly knocking on their door and
saying, give us everything you've got, because I don't think they're going to
do that. So I'm wondering if maybe just logistically because I don't want to
do with this guy, but this gal, if you're the worst offender of
the two of them. Oh, I'm the problem. You're the You've got
the Irish temper. My dude, wonder if maybe they are continuing to say
no, it's still an open case because they don't want for a request rolling
in. But that's just my theory and maybe it's a paranoid one. And
let me tell you a story. In response to your question. About a
year ago, we got a tip from a DNA lab that will remain anonymous
that Virginia State Police had applied for and received a SAKI grant. And SAKI
stands for Sexual Assault Kit Initiative Grant. It's actually a terrific program federal money
put aside for agencies to apply for grant money to cover the cost of outside
labs to test rape kits that have gone untested, which is in and of
itself, should be a national scandal. We got a tip that they had
applied for a SAKI grant and received it and were sending the evidence in the
Robin Edwards case to an outside DNA lab. We were thrilled, but we
have been advised and don't mean the lab any disrespect. Our experts behind the
scenes said to us they didn't think that the particular lab that had been chosen
was necessarily the best lab for this particular, very challenging DNA sample. This
is the last bit of DNA from Robin Edwards rape kit. Now remember Robin
Edward's body was in the water for three days, so this is a very
small, highly degraded DNA sample that has been exposed to seawater and is over
thirty years old. So it's a nightmare. I got a hold of Jeanette
Edwards Santiago, who's Robin's sister. She's absolutely wonderful, another potential special guest
for a future live event like this. We went back to the Virginia State
Police, because of course they don't tell you that they're doing this, which
heaven forbid, they keep the families informed. We expressed what I just said
to you, and the agent, who I think is actually very sharp,
came back to us a couple of days later and he dealt with Jeannette.
Remember I'm not a family member to Robin Edwards, so I don't officially have
a role here. Jeannette is next to Ken. They came back and said,
we're sorry, the evidence already went to the lab and we can't call
it back. So we were disappointed. But I talked to Jeanette about it
at the time and I said, I can't speak for your family, but
from my point of view, if this is the last shot we have,
let's take it. We're not getting any younger. More than half the mothers
and fathers, the moms and dads of the victims and the Colonial Parkway murders
have gone to their graves waiting for answers in this case. So Jeannette and
I, talking over the phone that night, said time's a wasting Let's go
even if it means that's the last bit of evidence from Robin's rape kit.
Let's burn it if we have to, because some of the tests consume the
evidence. So they came back to us. They said they were unable to
get a result, which does happen. And I'm not criticizing anybody. The
good news is that they kept going. And I have to give the Virginia
State Police and the Virginia Department of Forensic Sciences a shout out here. They
kept going. They took the evidence back from the first lab that had struck
out, and they sent it to another independent lab. I think I know
who it is, but I won't say because I'm not sure, but other
very well respected lab did the tests a second time and their equipment and their
parameters were different, and they're the ones that got the result. So they
stuck with it, even though Jeannette and I had both said if this burns
the last bit of evidence in Robin's case, then so be it. We're
thrilled they actually took the gamble and this is what resulted in Alan Wade Wilmer
being identified as the suspect. Props all the way around. I just wanted
to tell you that story, tying into what you're saying, thank you,
And one last thing. I know the truck has played a major role in
trying to garner tips and stuff. Do you know if he had access to
any other vehicles? And I'm thinking specifically, I know you and your brother.
Chris did an episode with Bill and Christian probably a year or two back,
and he had said on that episode that night when he was on the
park Way at around four am, saw a van speeding out of the Ringfield
Plantation area, acting in a very suspicious manner, and so it made me
think, are there other vehicles out there that Wilmer or some of the people
on the shortlist might have had access to that fit that identification of that vehicle.
Yeah, Chris. Chris was coming home that night from Richmond and he
saw that van just pulled right out and it was driving erradically. It turned
around and came up behind him and was driving erradically and passed him. He
thought that strange. People don't do that on the parkway. He's going to
get a ticket. He just he remembers it very vividly. As he was
going by, he looked over and saw a car on the overlook. Had
no idea in a million years that was his brother's car, and kept going.
And to this day I feel the same way too. But I just
know that van had something to do with it. I just know it.
So yes, So do we know that Wilmer had access to other cars?
Is that's what you're asking about. I'm trying to figure it. Is this
something we're trying to be careful. We're trying to be careful on some stuff
here. The FBI and the Virginia's Day Police have looked at this in connection
with Wilmer. They have looked at a number of vehicles that he drove over
the years. Nothing so far that they've found matches the kind of vehicle that
Chris call saw on the Parkway that night. I think that's a responsible answer.
My mom would be proud of me. Yeah, so the party line
is just the truck for now. He did drive different trucks, and he
did have access to different vehicles. The work that he was in mostly involved
the use of pickup trucks, and Wilmer does not seem to have owned a
van that would match that description. Thank you, thank you. You're listening
to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors.
We're back here at mindover Murder. Sure, come on down. We're
not charging for the questions the right height. Okay, So there have been
serial killers in the past who have killed in concert with another person an accomplice,
and then also had murders that they committed single Do you think it's possible
that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior worked in concert with someone for the couple murders and
then singularly on say miss Howell's case. And the reason I bring that up
is it seems to me these couple murders were very well organized. He took
a lot of time to dispose of bodies, move cars, do things he
didn't need to do. But when it came to Miss Howell, from the
sounds of it, he raped her and he discarded her alongside the road.
Very sloppy, very unorganized. So do you think it's possible that there was
someone who worked in concert with him for the Colonial Parkway murders, yet he
singularly committed a number of other murders. I think that, And I want
to be careful that I'm not speaking out of turn, largely because I'm not
a profiler, I'm not an investigator. I did not go to school for
any of this. I'm, like I said, I'm a public educator.
But I do think that it is entirely possible that, based on what we
have heard from our various profiler friends and psychologist friends, that what serial killers
will try to do is they will try to challenge themselves, just up the
ante and up the excitement. I think that you've made some excellent points that
anyone who's investigating this case should definitely look into. So do I think it's
a possibility. Yeah, But I also think that, like I said before,
and I know I son wishy washy on this, but I'm just trying
to be responsible about it. I think there is so much that we don't
know about Wilmar at this point. We still need to gather more information.
But do I take your point and do I agree with you? I do.
I think it is possible. I think we need to learn more to
be able to answer definitively. But absolutely I think your points are excellent.
We had interviewed Jim Fitzgerald and Ray Carr to FBI profilers, and one of
the things they said, which is very interesting, and again one of the
reasons why we started this podcast is Kristin and I thought we've met so many
interesting people we could share these interesting people with an audience. So here you're
talking to two FBI profilers, one of whom was key to solving the unibomber
case. He did the linguistic profile that led to the unibomber's identification. Fits
is very quick to push back on the idea that he did it by himself.
This is all part of a very large team. They talked about something
which is very interesting and educational for Kristin and me, which is they talk
about organized defenders and dis organized defenders, and clearly whoever committed the Colonial Parkway
murders is approaching things in a certain way, and there is a very strong
it may be bizarre, it may be distasteful, but there's a strong sense
that he or they are doing these things in a certain way for a certain
reason, and as I mentioned before, even staging the vehicles to create certain
impressions. But they also mentioned that somebody who's very systematic like that could also
be opportunistic. Yesterday, my friend Keith and I went out and we went
to the site where the Zodiac Club had been, and then he took me
to where Teresa Howell's body was found. And then I was rereading information this
morning about the Howell case, and we had spoken to Teresa's niece last night
on the phone and learned a lot more than we knew about that case.
That could be an opportunistic situation, one of our other profilers said, Laura
Richards said to us, it isn't even necessary for us Allen Wilworth to go
inside the bar. He can hang out in the parking lot. He maybe
he's watching for a single woman by herself, maybe a woman who might have
had a bit too much to drink. Next time, he's swooping in there,
her judgment might be impaired. And again I'm not passing any value judgment
in any of this. That isn't the mo as we understand it, of
the Colonial Park murders. With this highly organized, systematic approach, I'm going
to go out and hunt and kill couples. The impulse strikes him, he
sees an opportunity and he goes with it. And this is what Fits and
Ray were telling us about opportunistic offenders. And you can be both. It
may depend on the situation. And this is where you end up with situations
where someone who has preyed on a particular age group of individuals and then suddenly
they'll rape someone that's far younger or older or whatever it is, and it
seems outside the sphere, but it was just an opportunity presented itself and they
went with it. One of the things that all the profilers have said to
us is you have to remember that a killer like Alan Wade Wilmer Senior is
thinking about killing all the time, and he's thinking about his next kill if
something kind of lands in his lap. If I don't mean to make that
sound like I'm being flipped, because I'm not he may go with it,
and that's where something like the Teresa Howell murder could fit that kind of scenario.
The one comparison that fitzmade that has been sticking with me for quite a
while is the fact that he called he called a serial killer like Alan Wade
Wilmer and apex predator. That has been really circulating over and over in my
mind. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that he would
take the opportunity that happened to present itself. And I don't think it's out
of the possibility that he could have changed or altered his mom or the people
that he worked with, or that he could have killed on his own.
I think that with someone like Wilmer, if you want to use the label
apex predator, I think that there are any number of ways that he could
have been operating over the years, and that the FBI and the VESP need
due diligence and look at all of them. Like Kristin, I'm also a
civilian, but you said something super interesting a second ago, and I don't
want to let you go without highlighting it. I could totally see him working
in a concert with an accomplice or an assistant, as Kristen said, could
be a brother, could be somebody else, and then at another time working
on his own. He's been described to us by law enforcement agents who are
working this case as a loaner. I don't think that necessarily means that he's
always working alone. Thank you, thank you, thank you. More questions
or comments. Yes, now we have to fix the mic so it works
for a tall person. Hi, guys, thank you for being here.
My name's Heather. I'm sorry for your loss, and I'm sorry that it's
been so long that you guys haven't had any answers. But my question is
probably what everyone in this room is wondering. Besides passing out the flyers for
you, how can we help you? You have a very active audiods of
people that care about your cause and the victims and want to help you find
answers. If his DNA being loaded into codis is a rule, are there
signatures that are needed? What can we do to help you? Is my
question. This is such a great question, and we have spent the last
couple of months since January eighth, racking our brains and asking ourselves the exact
same thing. Because you all are wonderful and people have reached out immediately and
said exactly the same thing, what can we do, how can we help?
And we are still working very hard to figure out what is it that
we need. More to the point, I think, what are we allowed
to do? People have asked, for example, hey, can we support
evidence testing monetarily? We do not have access to the evidence, so we
cannot accept those sorts of donations. We are still trying to parse out for
ourselves what are the best ways that y'all can help. But the number one
thing that you can do, like right now leaving here tonight, is please
take our information with you. Hand out those postcards to anybody that you know
who may be aware of Wilmer, lived adjacent to him, anyone who lives
in Lancaster County. The more information that we can get to the FBI and
the VSP, the better. Anything else beyond that, petitions and so on
and so forth. That is still stuff that we are trying to sess out.
But as soon as we have that information, please believe me, we
will tell you. We want to put we want to put all of you
to work. We really want all of the help and support that you guys
have given. You know, and I know that the family is appreciated and
all of us who are working with them appreciated too. Did I cover it
or do you want to know? One bit of clarification. We did approach
the FBI a couple of years ago because we were getting a lot of feedback
from a very positive feedback from Mind over Murder listeners and people that are very
supportive of the families. The Call family had been very successful in raising funds
as needed some years ago. This is back in the eighties. That was
something that we had talked amongst ourselves about being willing to do, but we
wanted to earmark this for forensic testing, and the FBI actually said we cannot
accept gifts of this type. And I said to the senior agent, it's
not a gift, but they refused the money. They didn't want to take
the money. Now, the good news is there seems to be especially with
the traction that we're seeing now in the case where we finally identified a suspect
and started to get some answers, it's not all the answers we're looking for.
They seem to be a lot more open to supporting advanced forensic testing.
So this is something Kristin and I are really trying to figure out. We
don't want to ask you all for things that are a waste of your time
or your money, or your support, your energy, your goodwill. We're
trying to be real careful about this, but it is definitely something we're thinking
about. Thank you, Thank you. Last questions, comments, criticisms all
right, Oh, go right ahead, No apologies necessary. Michell, just
she feels that intuition that the white van was involved in her brother's case.
How do you, as Kathy's brother, feel that Wilmer was involved in yours?
Wilmer checks a lot of boxes potentially in Kathy and Becky's murder. And
remember when the murder series started, it's not for another year that we have
another murder, the murder of Robin Edwards and David Nobling. The FBI told
us from very early on that they were looking at watermen and there were a
lot of things about the circumstances of how Kathy and Becky died. I won't
get into the graphic details here, but they thought that a waterman was a
very likely suspect, and they did look at a number of people that fit
that category, including we believe Alan Wade Wilmer Senior. There are other suspects
that are also pretty viable, particularly now we're talking about Kathy and Becky's case.
Remember the Colonial Parkway murders may not be as right up one, two,
three, four series here. I could see Wilmer being identified as Kathy
and Becky's killer. But I think we're just going to have to let this
one play out in terms of they are doing a lot of good work here,
and I think law enforcement and the investigative teams are more motivated than they've
ever been before. It's really hard for me to be patient. After thirty
seven years, I think we have to give this one a little bit more
time. Bill Kristen Joyce, Folks, I have a comment. I want
to give an announcement. My name is Ed Taylor, Junior, and I'm
president of a historic organization clear up in the western end of the state of
Maryland entitled the Cumberland Historic Cemetery Organization and where the group last year that installed
the monument for Joyce's brother Keith call at Rosewell Memorial Cemetery over in Gloucester County.
I have been running this organization for forty years, and we have erected
monuments from Florida to northern Pennsylvania through the two hundred and fifty year American spectrum
from the Revolution to current day. And we've erected almost a little over nine
hundred monuments. And I will say that out of all the monuments we ever
put it was in the ground. It was such an honor and a special
experience to do this one. Because this story is still going on, and
tonight I came down here. It was a six and a half hour drive
to make the announ announcement. In twenty twenty eight or twenty nine, at
the end of this decade, we will be installing a rather large monument.
I'll know tomorrow morning, one hundred percent for sure what cemetery it's going to
be in. It'll be in Gloucester County to all the Colonial Park Wy murder
victims. The reason why we're waiting several years, as everyone in this room
knows and has heard tonight, this story is still being written. Kristin Dilly,
Bill, Thomas Joyce Call and Blaine Pardo have already committed that they will
be monument committee members and between the few of us. We will decide what
will go on the monument, and it will be a rather large monument containing
the pictures of the victims. Who knows, by the time this rolls around,
there may be other victims other than just the nine that we know of
tonight. As the years go by, we'll have more information on this project.
And before I sit down, I want to make a public comment.
If this country had more people like Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley, we wouldn't
have half the problems we have in this damn country right now. So let's
give these folks a truly good hand. Now, thank you, thank you,
thank you, thank you. Ed Now we're both blushing, I think
we have time for one last question. All right. My name is Kim.
My sister and I are both here tonight, and we grew up in
Williamsburg. We are their ages. We were on the parkway doing things we
shouldn't have been doing at our tag in our teenage years, and yet it
amazes me that we knew about it, But it was amazing how much we
didn't know about it. Obviously, social media has changed that. So what
I was going to suggest and going on with, I don't know where she
went. But the woman that wanted to thank you and ask what we could
do to help. We all, I think, came here because of social
media and heard about it that way. With your permission, would you consider
it a help if we were to take the pamphlets that you guys have given
us tonight, maybe post them on our Facebook pages. Obviously I grew up
in Williamsburg. I still have tons of friends like my sister does that knew
about everything that was going on. And if we all have that same kind
of connection, then if we all posted it and maybe put the FBI link
or put invite them to the podcast or something that just you know, more
people on the local level may see it that haven't seen it yet. So
maybe some of the folks that are here tonight, if they have social media,
they can do that and maybe could lead to smart tips. We would
love that. We would love that. Thank you very much. Yeah,
absolutely, please do feel free to take those, share those, post them
everywhere. Our goal is to get as much information out about the case and
about Wilmer. That looks like we're almost out of time, you thought.
The one thing I would add is I love the idea. I just think
in the comments. We'll try to avoid getting into what Kim and her sister
and their friends were into back in the day. She see you taught her
how to use social media and no, it's a wonderful idea. I think
we're going to wrap it up. That is going to do it for this
episode of mind Over Murder live at the Yorktown Library. Thank you so much
for joining us. We'll see you next time. Please take postcards, that's
why we printed them, and thank you all. Thank you to Beth and
the library staff. They did an incredible job. Thank you very much,
so much. D Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog
Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art
is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over
Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. You can follow us on
Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the
Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on
Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.