WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:04.759 How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with no ads? Easy? 2 00:00:05.320 --> 00:00:09.880 Become a patron For just five dollars a month you get access to a private 3 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:14.359 RSS feed where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month will 4 00:00:14.400 --> 00:00:18.800 get you that and a special dot net Rocks patron mug. Sign up now 5 00:00:18.839 --> 00:00:24.760 at Patreon dot dot net rocks dot com. Hey Carlin Richard here. As 6 00:00:24.760 --> 00:00:30.120 you may have heard, NDC is back offering their incredible in person conferences around 7 00:00:30.120 --> 00:00:34.640 the world, and we'd like to tell you about them. NDC Copenhagen is 8 00:00:34.679 --> 00:00:40.320 happening August twenty seventh through the thirty first. Go to NDC Copenhagen dot com 9 00:00:40.560 --> 00:00:45.719 for more information. NDC Porto is happening October sixteenth through the twentieth. The 10 00:00:45.759 --> 00:00:50.719 early bird discount for ADC Porto ends July twenty first. Go to Dcporto dot 11 00:00:50.799 --> 00:00:56.039 com to register and check out the full lineup of conferences at NDC Conferences dot 12 00:00:56.079 --> 00:01:00.880 com. Hey there, this is Jeff Fritz, the purple blazer guy from 13 00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:04.359 Microsoft, letting you in on a little secret about my friend Carl Franklin. 14 00:01:06.079 --> 00:01:08.760 You know, the guy who started dot net rocks. The first podcast about 15 00:01:08.760 --> 00:01:14.640 dot Net in two thousand and two. The guy who's been teaching Blazer on 16 00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:19.760 YouTube since twenty twenty, Yeah, that Carl Franklin. Well, Carl's joined 17 00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:23.680 up with the folks from Code in a Castle to teach a week long hands 18 00:01:23.719 --> 00:01:29.599 on Blazer class. Are you ready to get this? At a castle slash 19 00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:34.840 villa in Tuscany. It's sort of a luxury vacation with Blazer learning built in. 20 00:01:37.000 --> 00:01:42.920 Carl's calling it the Blazer Master Class. You'll learn Blazer from the ground 21 00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:47.640 up, finishing the week with the ability to build and deploy Blazer applications. 22 00:01:48.799 --> 00:01:52.599 Since the training happens for only four hours in the morning over six days, 23 00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:57.599 you can bring your significant other, your partner with you and you should right 24 00:01:57.359 --> 00:02:01.920 This part of Italy's absolutely beautiful. There's so much to see and do, 25 00:02:02.280 --> 00:02:07.840 and in Larion Marco from Code in a Castle are organizing daily activities both at 26 00:02:07.840 --> 00:02:13.080 the castle and in the area. The castle is in the Marema, a 27 00:02:13.159 --> 00:02:17.840 less touristed region of Tuscany, offering both classic Tuscan hill country as well as 28 00:02:17.960 --> 00:02:23.840 easy access to the Etruscan Riviera, with sublime local food, wine and olive 29 00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:29.599 oil around every corner. Breakfast is included. Every day there will be two 30 00:02:29.639 --> 00:02:34.400 communal dinners at the castle book ending the experience, and most other meals and 31 00:02:34.599 --> 00:02:38.800 all activities are included. And did I mention you'll learn Blazer in person from 32 00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:44.759 Carl Franklin. Listen, space is limited and for very good reason. This 33 00:02:44.879 --> 00:02:50.520 is quality training in a beautiful setting. Go to code in Acastle dot com 34 00:02:50.879 --> 00:02:58.280 slash Blazer twenty twenty three that's bla z o R two zero two three to 35 00:02:58.360 --> 00:03:04.000 take advantage of this amazing opportunity to join Carl in Tuscany for an unforgettable week 36 00:03:04.280 --> 00:03:17.840 of La dolce vita while advancing your programming skills in this important new technology. 37 00:03:23.360 --> 00:03:25.639 Welcome back to dot net Rocks. Is Carl Franklin, and this is Richard 38 00:03:25.680 --> 00:03:30.800 Cavill. And uh, we're starting like a five show recording run, aren't 39 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:34.560 we. I think we've already done part of it, just been the next 40 00:03:34.599 --> 00:03:40.039 one days carry us down through into into July. So I really do enjoy 41 00:03:40.120 --> 00:03:44.879 to any shows with you and our guests over the years. It's been a 42 00:03:45.199 --> 00:03:49.080 it's been an amazing ride in a long time. And I have a better 43 00:03:49.080 --> 00:03:52.800 no framework for us all guys. Oh by yeah, so roll the music 44 00:03:52.879 --> 00:04:08.879 awesome at well Gate is still making non SSD drives. The current technology for 45 00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:14.199 platter drives that they're using is h AMR spinning rusts. Yeah, I know 46 00:04:14.439 --> 00:04:18.000 right. H A m R stands for Why Richard Heat assisted magnetic recording, 47 00:04:18.120 --> 00:04:24.040 right, So they actually heat up the platters so that you can put more 48 00:04:24.079 --> 00:04:28.079 bits on the metal or something. We just come up with new tricks ways 49 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:36.920 to align rust atoms really precisely. Pretty crazy. Thirty two terabytes they're coming 50 00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:43.519 up to. Wow, they're gonna give you a thirty two terabyte regular SATA 51 00:04:43.639 --> 00:04:50.040 drive, Yeah, and followed by a forty terabyte SAT. I don't have 52 00:04:50.199 --> 00:04:54.759 enough stuff, I know, right, isn't that nuts? Yeah? I 53 00:04:54.759 --> 00:04:59.000 think gonna I'm gonna open up a competitor to uh, you know, Dropbox. 54 00:04:59.040 --> 00:05:00.480 That's what I'm gonna do. You're just gonna buy like a million of 55 00:05:00.560 --> 00:05:04.480 these things. Oh man, not, that's amazing. Not anyway. I 56 00:05:04.600 --> 00:05:10.240 still do use some of these drives, but only ten terabytes. As hard 57 00:05:10.279 --> 00:05:13.199 as I go, a mere ten terabytes. Yeah, I think I've got 58 00:05:13.399 --> 00:05:18.240 I've got four twelves in my synology. But it is interesting to consider the 59 00:05:18.279 --> 00:05:23.000 idea that, yeah, you could triple that easily with four new drives. 60 00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:26.600 I can't imagine they'll be all that cheap, but it is amazing to see 61 00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:30.279 that they're still innovating in the space. Yep, it is cool. Anyway. 62 00:05:30.399 --> 00:05:32.360 That's when I have for the old guys. Great talking to us today, 63 00:05:32.480 --> 00:05:36.519 Richard. I grabbed a comment top of the show eighteen eighteen which I 64 00:05:36.519 --> 00:05:41.000 don't think you'd be surprised, you know that I went back to David Whitney's 65 00:05:41.079 --> 00:05:46.319 Well, of course that that show we did at INDC and OSLOW kicked off 66 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:50.480 a lot of conversation and still does to this day. I think this would 67 00:05:50.519 --> 00:05:55.199 be like the fourth comment I've read from that show. So this is from 68 00:05:55.319 --> 00:05:58.560 Joseph hiller Up, who said, I think the basic idea is great and 69 00:05:58.639 --> 00:06:00.720 needed, but the actual and Holman will need to be refined to work, 70 00:06:00.759 --> 00:06:05.600 which is how do we pay open source maintainers? One issue that comes to 71 00:06:05.639 --> 00:06:10.360 mind is how funny would work when an open source library uses another open source 72 00:06:10.399 --> 00:06:14.240 library. I mean, who gets paid by whom and how much? So 73 00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:16.759 you know, if the funding model was based on utilization, that's an interesting 74 00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:23.720 problem. Should should the one project help fund the other because they are to 75 00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:27.800 have dependency on it. Another is the funding model would work fine for startups 76 00:06:27.800 --> 00:06:30.439 and the like, but it wouldn't work a lot and enterprise organizations and need 77 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:33.639 contracts and possible even vendors to be located in certain countries when paying out significants 78 00:06:33.639 --> 00:06:36.560 amounts of money for licenses. Yeah, I don't know that that's true. 79 00:06:36.680 --> 00:06:41.319 I think every organization can approach it the way they want to. It'll be 80 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:46.079 more about the standards around what you're expected to do. But I don't see 81 00:06:46.120 --> 00:06:50.920 this as payment. I see this as donation. Realistically, making contributions just 82 00:06:50.959 --> 00:06:55.480 to keep that thing going. If you want certainty, hire a team and 83 00:06:55.560 --> 00:07:00.920 run it yourself. But I do think the discussion is important, and like 84 00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:05.279 you said, the current model is likely unsustainable, and we're going to talk 85 00:07:05.319 --> 00:07:09.360 about that further. Joshua, I'm not entirely sure. Now. I don't 86 00:07:09.399 --> 00:07:11.240 know that I should read this last part because there has nothing to do with 87 00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:13.720 the show, but I'm going to do it anyway. Okay, here we 88 00:07:13.759 --> 00:07:16.560 go. PS. I hate to say this for Richard, who's actually wrong 89 00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:21.600 here. Possibly for the first time ever, VHS was technically a superior format, 90 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:26.120 just beta a lot for faster speeds so people were carrying fast speed on 91 00:07:26.160 --> 00:07:29.240 Beta who use the tape in half an hour, versus a slower speed on 92 00:07:29.240 --> 00:07:31.000 the VHS that would last for hours when you can pay the same amount of 93 00:07:31.000 --> 00:07:35.079 tape used per secon with uni formats, VHS looked better. Yeah, so, 94 00:07:35.160 --> 00:07:39.759 well, the popularity doesn't necessarily mean it's the better format. Well, 95 00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:43.000 it's also that Joshua is completely wrong, like, not even close to correct. 96 00:07:43.000 --> 00:07:46.839 He's reversed a bunch of the facts. That the Beta Max format was 97 00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:50.680 physically smaller in the VHS format, it was more portable. The original versions 98 00:07:50.680 --> 00:07:54.519 of Beta Max, which came out a couple of years before VHS, had 99 00:07:54.600 --> 00:07:58.759 more length than VHS. You're remembering the later versions of VHS when they met 100 00:07:58.800 --> 00:08:01.600 a tape thinner and things got longer and they slowed down the speeds. Beta 101 00:08:01.639 --> 00:08:07.079 Max was higher resolution, it was faster to seek on. It was better 102 00:08:07.079 --> 00:08:11.879 in every expect except one thing. Only Sony was allowed to make them. 103 00:08:11.959 --> 00:08:18.040 Sony refused to allow other companies to manufacture Beta Max players, and so they 104 00:08:18.199 --> 00:08:24.160 failed the inferior format and essentially every respect VHS, because it was open, 105 00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:28.720 multiple manufacturers made it and so became the most popular one in the network effect 106 00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:31.799 took a hold. There were more players, so more movies were released on 107 00:08:31.799 --> 00:08:37.039 it, and so it dominated. But you're not going to argue technical merit 108 00:08:37.080 --> 00:08:39.279 of VHS over Beta, and be right if you think VHS was a superior 109 00:08:39.320 --> 00:08:46.120 technology, it wasn't. It was the winner, and Sony learned once again 110 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:50.840 because they continue to do this. If you don't open up a product line 111 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:54.679 like that to other vendors, you're going to lose. That being said Joshua, 112 00:08:56.039 --> 00:08:58.840 I think you may already have a music to Code buy. I'd happily 113 00:08:58.799 --> 00:09:03.159 send you another one, because you know you need to when you're that wrong. 114 00:09:03.720 --> 00:09:07.600 Yeah, but contact me at Richard at pwop dot com and we'll figure 115 00:09:07.639 --> 00:09:09.080 it out. Thanks so much. And if you'd like a copy of music 116 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:11.679 code By, write a comment on the website at dot at rocks dot com 117 00:09:11.799 --> 00:09:15.679 or on the facebooks. We publish every show there and if I read it 118 00:09:15.720 --> 00:09:18.159 on the show, we'll send you copy of music go By. And you 119 00:09:18.159 --> 00:09:20.799 know you can follow us on Twitter. But the real fund is happening over 120 00:09:20.919 --> 00:09:24.279 on Mastodon. I'm at Carl Franklin at tech Hub dot social and now I'm 121 00:09:24.360 --> 00:09:28.320 rich Campbell at Mastodon dot social. Send us a two. We like him. 122 00:09:28.399 --> 00:09:31.799 By the way, I just got my blue Sky account too, because 123 00:09:31.799 --> 00:09:35.000 if I don't have enough social media accounts, what's blue Sky just another one? 124 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:39.879 Really, it's another Twitter alternative. Okay, as soon as I get 125 00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:41.000 an invite, all send you one, then we can have even more, 126 00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:46.360 because you know, you can't have enough bay at least barely functional social media. 127 00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:50.320 And if you say so, all right, Well, before we leave 128 00:09:50.360 --> 00:09:54.559 the whole VHS beta thing, do you remember the format that was competing with 129 00:09:54.679 --> 00:10:01.480 Blu Ray was hd DV HDDVD. That's right, So before I knew that 130 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:05.960 that Blu Ray was going to be the and it was probably like the week 131 00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:11.759 before, I ordered an HDDVD player right right, and and it sat in 132 00:10:11.799 --> 00:10:18.240 the box because Blu Ray one, and it was completely unusable, and so 133 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:22.000 I kept it in storage and kept in storage. And finally we're cleaning out 134 00:10:22.039 --> 00:10:26.000 the garage and my wife goose, what is this and can we sell that? 135 00:10:26.080 --> 00:10:28.919 And I'm like, no, we cannot sell that. Nobody will buy 136 00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:33.840 it. Nobody wants that. It's going in the garbage. Not a thing. 137 00:10:33.080 --> 00:10:37.320 Yeah, Unfortunately, I think I had an HDDVD player. I think 138 00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:41.440 it was in the old Xbox. Actually, huh, that's the only one 139 00:10:41.480 --> 00:10:45.919 we had, and then of course the new ones had Blu Ray. And 140 00:10:46.039 --> 00:10:50.440 who uses spinning media at all anymore? Yeah? I really don't. Yeah, 141 00:10:50.759 --> 00:10:54.600 other than other than those really large hard drives in your mass storage device. 142 00:10:54.759 --> 00:10:56.519 Yeah, it's about it for spinning media of any thirty two terabytes. 143 00:10:56.960 --> 00:11:03.519 Okay, let's bring back Sean Walker to the program. Sean is the original 144 00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:07.080 creator of Octane and before that, dot Net Nuke Yay. Both of those 145 00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:11.320 are web application frameworks that have earned the recognition of being amongst the most pioneering 146 00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:16.919 and widely adopted open source projects native to the Microsoft platform. He has over 147 00:11:18.039 --> 00:11:22.360 thirty years of professional experience in architecting and implementing enterprise software solutions for private and 148 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:28.679 public organizations and based on significant community contributions, He's been recognized as a Microsoft 149 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:35.639 MVP for over fourteen years and was recognized in twenty eleven as a Leading Entrepreneur 150 00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:41.480 and the BIV forty under forty Business Awards, and is currently the chair of 151 00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:46.159 the Project committee for the dot Net Foundation. Wow by busy Man. Every 152 00:11:46.200 --> 00:11:50.200 time I'm on the show, I think I better reduced my bio. That's 153 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:54.559 too long winded, but I always forget to do that, so I replaced 154 00:11:54.559 --> 00:11:58.639 it. I'd replaced the longer one with this one. Actually this is the 155 00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:01.120 short one. Yeah, oh boy, I mean, how many more stories 156 00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:05.639 could I tell about you, Sean? Like we've known each other a really 157 00:12:05.720 --> 00:12:09.399 long time? Yeah, yeah, going back to the eclipse days. Hey, 158 00:12:09.440 --> 00:12:13.600 can we take like a minute and talk a bit about the dot Net 159 00:12:13.639 --> 00:12:16.919 Foundation, Like, how are things going? Yeah? Yeah, I've been 160 00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:22.879 on the Foundation as a volunteer for a long time, since twenty fourteen. 161 00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:28.399 In fact, lately have been focused on the Project Committee. I'm glad a 162 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:33.879 lot. We're coming up to another election actually for the Board of Directors, 163 00:12:33.879 --> 00:12:37.679 so there's going to be I think I have voted excellent. Yeah. I 164 00:12:37.679 --> 00:12:41.039 think there's three seats that have opened up, so there'll be three new members 165 00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:48.200 joining and three existing members rolling off the current board. At least the members 166 00:12:48.279 --> 00:12:52.320 that have been interacting with regularly are very invested in trying to move the needle 167 00:12:52.360 --> 00:12:58.600 forward when it comes to the foundation initiatives, and also the professional services company 168 00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:03.200 that we're working with, Virtual Inc, Is also helping us get organized better, 169 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:07.639 trying to hone in on what the value proposition is better or trying to 170 00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:11.759 identify the benefits. So a lot of progress is being made behind the scenes 171 00:13:11.799 --> 00:13:16.639 that isn't exactly visible yet, but I'm excited about where it's going. It 172 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:22.440 seems to me that Microsoft has been a lot more hands off on the dot 173 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:26.279 Net Foundation these days since the departure of the last executive director, and it's 174 00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:31.279 just not really been replaced, And I kind of see that as a good 175 00:13:31.279 --> 00:13:33.399 thing, but I don't know that everybody sees it that way. Yeah, 176 00:13:33.399 --> 00:13:37.559 that was a big change. Up until last fall, the executive director had 177 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:43.200 always been a Microsoft employee and that wasn't part of the by laws or anything 178 00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:48.759 that was a requirement. It was more that Microsoft was willing to provide a 179 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:54.159 resource to the foundation to fill that role. And usually that person was sort 180 00:13:54.200 --> 00:13:58.360 of doing two roles, right they were doing work for Microsoft still and working 181 00:13:58.360 --> 00:14:07.039 on the foundation. But after Claire Nevotney left there was actually a professional firm 182 00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:11.679 that was hired to help with or like managing the foundation, and since then 183 00:14:11.720 --> 00:14:15.279 there's been a couple of folks from that firm that have filled the role of 184 00:14:15.320 --> 00:14:18.559 executive director. And it does it definitely right. It feels more objective, 185 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:22.200 more impartial a little and you're right, a little bit more arms length from 186 00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:26.279 Microsoft. Yeah, well, I mean I want dot net to be bigger 187 00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:31.399 than Microsoft. Really, you know, that's my thinking when I when I 188 00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:33.759 think about what the potential of the foundation is, it's like, hey, 189 00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:35.039 look, dot net can live in a lot of places, does live in 190 00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:39.200 a lot of places, and it doesn't have to all be driven by Microsoft. 191 00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:41.840 If there's any possibility this is going to come true, it's going to 192 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:46.240 come from the Foundation. Yeah. Yeah. And of course with any foundation, 193 00:14:46.279 --> 00:14:50.759 the challenge is most of the resources, if not all, are volunteer, 194 00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:54.879 and so it's just it's hard to get consensus in a sort of a 195 00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:58.279 volunteer structure and to make significant progress. A lot of folks are putting in 196 00:14:58.279 --> 00:15:01.240 a lot of effort. Yeah, So I hope that, you know, 197 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:05.639 people will start to see the results soon. Well, I'm glad you're involved 198 00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:09.000 in the project side. Any particular projects you want to call out before we 199 00:15:09.080 --> 00:15:13.919 move on. One thing I guess I would like to mention is that it's 200 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:18.639 been a little bit slow in terms of new projects making applications to become members 201 00:15:18.679 --> 00:15:22.320 of the Foundation. That's been the case for probably the last six months. 202 00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:28.279 Prior to that, there was always a regular flow of new project applications. 203 00:15:28.519 --> 00:15:31.600 I think there's more than one hundred projects that are part of the Foundation at 204 00:15:31.639 --> 00:15:37.279 this point, and that includes Microsoft projects as well as community projects. But 205 00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:39.960 if there's any projects that are, you know, dot net based, that 206 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:46.399 are looking to become members of the Foundation, they should definitely consider submitting the 207 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:52.639 application and going through the process. Awesome. I'm looking at the website dot 208 00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:56.360 Net Foundation Project Trends, which has some nice graphs and stuff, and apparently 209 00:15:56.399 --> 00:16:00.840 that was written with Octane who knew. Yes, yeah, should think have 210 00:16:00.879 --> 00:16:04.120 happened? How good that have happened? Yes, I know, Yeah, 211 00:16:04.120 --> 00:16:07.440 we needed a way to track like which projects were the most active, and 212 00:16:07.480 --> 00:16:12.200 in fact you weren't at the next Pauli's on that, yeah as well. 213 00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:15.600 A lot of great work going on in Polly. Yeah, amazing stuff happening 214 00:16:15.639 --> 00:16:22.639 now that the dot net team got involved, and really um is making a 215 00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:26.960 new version that's kind of completely blow away the old stuff and be completely backward 216 00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:30.039 compatible. We talked about that before. I think I think we're getting Joel 217 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:33.279 on the show at some point. Richard too. Yeah, they wanted to 218 00:16:33.320 --> 00:16:37.440 wait a little bit till the new bits were closer to ready before we record, 219 00:16:37.480 --> 00:16:40.399 but yeah, it's on the radar. I think it's will be involved 220 00:16:40.440 --> 00:16:45.480 as well. Yes, yes, so speaking of Voctane, because we were 221 00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:48.360 Yeah, let's you. You talked about it a little bit on the last 222 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:52.759 show here in twenty nineteen that you did that you were working on this thing. 223 00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:57.960 But I guess now it's there, it's done, growed up, it's 224 00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:06.200 all ye nineteen. At early stage, it was just getting started. At 225 00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:10.160 that point, I think I had just released the first version as an open 226 00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:12.079 source project on the hub. Well what is it? Let's start at the 227 00:17:12.119 --> 00:17:18.240 top. Okay, So I mean I've kind of changed the messaging around it 228 00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:22.079 a little bit over time. It's one of those things where I wanted to 229 00:17:22.119 --> 00:17:26.559 position it as a web application framework focused on developers, and I really was 230 00:17:26.599 --> 00:17:30.519 trying to avoid the term CMS because there's a lot of CMSs and I felt 231 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:34.759 like there's no need for another CMS. However, the more I talked to 232 00:17:34.799 --> 00:17:40.000 developers, they tell me Octane is a CMS. So I'm like, if 233 00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:41.759 it walks like a duck quacks like a duck, I guess it is a 234 00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:45.200 duck like in some respects and some stop resisting it, and so now I've 235 00:17:45.240 --> 00:17:49.680 been referring to it as a CMS and application framework. And obviously it's built 236 00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:53.839 on Blazer. Started with the very early previews of Blazer and has grown up 237 00:17:53.880 --> 00:17:59.400 since then with every successive version. And we'll be having a like a dot 238 00:17:59.400 --> 00:18:02.640 in at seven version coming out later this month. So it's a it's a 239 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:08.160 it's a Blazer thing though right in particularly so it fully like so it's a 240 00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:15.519 headless model where it's got the full back end API to manage users and sites 241 00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:18.720 and all of the standard sort of entities you would expect in a in a 242 00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:22.920 common sort of web application, but the front end is all Blazer um. 243 00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:26.640 Yeah, so it took it. It's taking advantage of the Blazer component model 244 00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:32.440 to build a very composable UI, which is wonderful. By the way. 245 00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:36.480 I know you're a big fan of the best thing that's happened web development since 246 00:18:36.519 --> 00:18:40.559 I can remember. Yeah, I was never a big fan of javascripts. 247 00:18:40.599 --> 00:18:42.960 So the fact that you can kind of put that to the background and you 248 00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:48.400 can really be productive in writing like front end c sharp UI is amazing. 249 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:52.240 Yep, great, Yeah, for the way you want to work, right, 250 00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:55.920 I mean, that's the whole thing. This will this will work with 251 00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:59.720 you. I do I know why you want to avoid CMS. I mean, 252 00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:02.759 it is an overblown term, and it's one of those great things where 253 00:19:02.759 --> 00:19:04.480 if it's simple enough to be easy to use, and it's not powerful enough, 254 00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:07.920 and if it's sophisticated enough to do all the things you want, then 255 00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:11.519 it's too bloody complicated. But I do think you hit this point of it's 256 00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:17.240 a dev tool, it's a framework, but writing your own how do I 257 00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:22.799 let non dev's add content code is just not smart. That's a solved problem. 258 00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:26.000 So to me, the CMS part of Octane is the and when the 259 00:19:26.079 --> 00:19:30.200 user wants to add content, here's your mechanism ready to go. Right. 260 00:19:30.359 --> 00:19:36.440 So do people drop parallels between this and dot neet nuke old dot neet nuke 261 00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:40.200 users? Do they like this? Is this like their new version? So 262 00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:47.359 it's a good question because early on I wanted to make it clear that this 263 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:52.480 was quite differentiated right from dot net nuke, because obviously I created dot neet 264 00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:56.000 nuke way back and web forms days whatever it was two thousand and three. 265 00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:00.599 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the reality is, I guess a lot 266 00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:10.440 of the concepts for developing components and how users would interact with the application. 267 00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:15.240 Those are all very similar to the way that dot neet Nuke worked, and 268 00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:21.079 even the underlying data model is very similar to the dotet new data model, 269 00:20:21.119 --> 00:20:26.599 at least the core data model. So it's really the implementation which is completely 270 00:20:26.599 --> 00:20:30.960 different, right, like built from the ground up using all the latest technology 271 00:20:30.119 --> 00:20:36.680 dotnet core Blaser. So it really has no resemblance at all to the way 272 00:20:36.680 --> 00:20:41.480 that dotnet nuke was was built. Yeah, but from a usability standpoint though, 273 00:20:41.559 --> 00:20:45.160 from is it it does fill a similar need? It does. Yeah, 274 00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:48.720 it's very similar because it has a lot of the same concepts, like 275 00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:52.440 multi tendency, meaning you can have multiple sites that are hosted out of the 276 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:56.960 same installation. Each site has its own set of users and roles and content 277 00:20:57.079 --> 00:21:02.480 and things that you can manage. So a lot of that existed in dott 278 00:21:02.519 --> 00:21:04.160 who as well. So you just said the magic word roles, And I 279 00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:08.640 know that role based authorization has kind of fallen out of favor in the last 280 00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:14.160 few years, I guess, And you know now it's all about claims and 281 00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:18.519 all this stuff, But what are you using for that mechanism on the back 282 00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:26.960 end? So I'm using the the dot net identity service like that the library 283 00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:32.720 that Microsoft provides for self hosted off scenarios, Yeah, because that was one 284 00:21:32.759 --> 00:21:36.960 thing that I felt was like really lacking in a lot of the templates is 285 00:21:37.079 --> 00:21:40.480 a self hosted model. Like, yes, you can use things like identity 286 00:21:40.519 --> 00:21:45.559 server and third party tools to get remote off working, but a lot of 287 00:21:45.559 --> 00:21:48.319 the time in development scenarios, you just want to self host it off. 288 00:21:48.599 --> 00:21:52.960 I'm actually really happy to see Microsoft's going to deliver something in dot neet aid 289 00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:56.440 in this regard. Yeah, me too. But yeah, so it's self 290 00:21:56.480 --> 00:22:02.559 host using the standard Microsoft bits there um, and then it also has open 291 00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:10.720 id and DC or OIDC like connections, right, so you can have remote 292 00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:15.759 authentication yeah sickond logging with Google and Twitter and Facebook and yeah, and I 293 00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:22.119 did that using no third party like libraries or extensions because basically Microsoft already provided 294 00:22:22.119 --> 00:22:26.160 all the bits that are necessary to interface with those different remote services without using 295 00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:30.279 an identity server or open id, dick or any of these other you know, 296 00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:33.920 third party options. Yeah, that's great, it's yeah. It's interesting 297 00:22:34.039 --> 00:22:37.519 how many projects you've been involved in that it basically been open source projects that 298 00:22:37.559 --> 00:22:42.839 had then been gone on to be successful, like and making money, Like, 299 00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:47.440 is octained profitable in any way? How does it sustain itself? Yeah, 300 00:22:47.480 --> 00:22:52.400 so that's sort of a good lead into the whole commercialization of open source. 301 00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:56.799 But um so, I only recently, within the last month, actually 302 00:22:56.799 --> 00:23:02.200 stepped away from my full time job a bit Cognizant, where I was leading 303 00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:08.920 professional services team, and with the intent of going fully um like fully focused 304 00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:15.599 on Octane, both developing out the product commercially and offering services around it commercially. 305 00:23:15.559 --> 00:23:19.640 But I'm only doing this because I have confidence that I can succeed based 306 00:23:19.799 --> 00:23:25.119 on the fact that I was able to do this with dot mat Nuke as 307 00:23:25.119 --> 00:23:27.559 well. Yeah, I was thinking, you should have some confidence. You've 308 00:23:27.559 --> 00:23:32.640 got a bunch of decades of succeeding at this stuff. So yeah, yeah, 309 00:23:32.680 --> 00:23:34.640 And I also yeah, so I kind of under And this is where 310 00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:38.319 I think a lot of people don't really understand some of the fundamentals of open 311 00:23:38.359 --> 00:23:44.039 source UM and these things came up in some of the prior prior shows, 312 00:23:44.039 --> 00:23:47.839 which is why I reached out and said, there's an alternate perspective I think 313 00:23:47.880 --> 00:23:52.240 that could be shared about some of the ideas that David Whitney shared in that 314 00:23:52.279 --> 00:23:59.440 session. And so Nevotney as well. Yeah, and they are they are 315 00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:03.359 well okay, So I mean David's whole perspective was that package managers like newged 316 00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:10.240 and GitHub could provide probably an ability for maintainers to make money off of their 317 00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:15.119 open source projects. Right, It's an interesting idea. Obviously, Carl lapsed 318 00:24:15.160 --> 00:24:18.039 onto that idea really quickly, thought it was a great idea. But then 319 00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:22.559 when Sarah came on the show, she kind of explained that it doesn't really 320 00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:26.160 conform to the ideals of open source. Right, And I would say that 321 00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:32.240 they're both correct, but they're both incorrect at the same time. And I 322 00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:37.799 did a presentation in January at the last dot Net Foundations summit and it was 323 00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:41.359 the title of the presentation was open Source Sustainability, but really what it was 324 00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:45.680 focused on was commercial open source. And I think what you really have to 325 00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:52.400 understand about open source is that is when it comes to licensing. So if 326 00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:56.480 you are the copyright holder of an open source project, then you have the 327 00:24:56.480 --> 00:25:03.640 ability to specify whatever license you would like to provide so that users can take 328 00:25:03.640 --> 00:25:07.200 advantage of your IP right. If you choose an open source license, it 329 00:25:07.240 --> 00:25:11.400 offers a lot of freedom and a lot of abilities for people to use it, 330 00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:15.960 but it also restricts your ability to make money directly off of that IP. 331 00:25:17.799 --> 00:25:22.880 However, it's completely possible for you to dual license your IP, so 332 00:25:22.920 --> 00:25:26.799 you can have an open source license and a commercial license, and people can 333 00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:30.599 choose the license that they want. And it's the same way that when you 334 00:25:30.680 --> 00:25:33.319 go to buy a cell phone today or rent a car whatever, right, 335 00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:37.200 you can choose to get the insurance or not get the insurance. Yeah, 336 00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:41.200 right, A lot of people choose to get the insurance because they're worried about 337 00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:45.000 mitigating the risk if something goes wrong. Same exact thing with open source, 338 00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:49.279 and don't people actually switch halfway through? It's like, hey, start with 339 00:25:49.319 --> 00:25:53.559 the open source product absolutely to a certain point where you either run into obstacles 340 00:25:53.640 --> 00:25:57.000 or it becomes critical where it's like, how are we going to protect ourselves? 341 00:25:57.119 --> 00:26:00.240 Hey, let's flip to the commercial license comes with the protection. Yeah. 342 00:26:00.279 --> 00:26:04.400 I'm thinking of Identity Server as the sort of the iconic example of that 343 00:26:06.119 --> 00:26:11.039 and all the heartache that they went through with their customers. You know about 344 00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:15.640 Andy and Microsoft too over that, and I think that that's maybe there's there 345 00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:22.359 really shouldn't be that much resistance to it as long the resistance and I actually 346 00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:29.880 faced this at Dot and nukes if you neglect the open source version in favor 347 00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:33.200 of the commercial version, because there's dual licensing where you offer the same exact 348 00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:38.359 piece of IP under two different licenses, and then there's things like open coore 349 00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:44.400 where you add extra functionality to the commercial version, which makes it clear that 350 00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:48.480 one version is better than the other. And then you're you know, you're 351 00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:52.920 forcing people to make a decision, and that's where the open source community starts 352 00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:56.160 to get a little bit anxious. Kay Growley, Well, the reason I 353 00:26:56.200 --> 00:26:59.799 was so excited about David Whitney's idea is that it was an option. You 354 00:26:59.839 --> 00:27:03.680 know. It wasn't like, um, you know, you're it wasn't like 355 00:27:03.720 --> 00:27:07.160 you're abandoning one one project for another or one other thing. It's that, 356 00:27:07.839 --> 00:27:12.880 you know, I've I've got these core this core set of features in this 357 00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:18.359 thing, and I'm now building a version that I'm going to charge for that 358 00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:22.519 has these features added to it. Right, It's it's an option, and 359 00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:25.839 if you don't want to buy it, you don't have to. But I 360 00:27:25.880 --> 00:27:32.519 think that it may not, you know, be open source. Um, 361 00:27:33.319 --> 00:27:34.200 why should I say, yeah, I think you said it best. It's 362 00:27:34.279 --> 00:27:38.240 like, that's not the open source you way to do things right, but 363 00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:44.920 be at GitHub or whatever is the perfect place to to to put that hook. 364 00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:48.880 I think, you know, but it's still an option. I saw 365 00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:52.279 no downside in that idea. Yeah, and I think that if you had 366 00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:56.960 even just even if you just took the standard dual license approach, let's say 367 00:27:56.960 --> 00:28:02.079 you had. Let let's pick a project like image sharp, that's a popular 368 00:28:02.279 --> 00:28:07.039 image library rate in the dot in an ecosystem. That project could have an 369 00:28:07.079 --> 00:28:11.920 open source license, very pure open source license, and a commercial license and 370 00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:15.720 the commercial and they could offer two packages of it, one under one license, 371 00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:18.799 one under the other, and people could choose to opt for the commercial 372 00:28:18.839 --> 00:28:22.279 license. And they would need a way to pay for it. And that's 373 00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:26.160 why I think what David was suggesting, right, is something like newget or 374 00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:32.319 get hub could facilitate that financial transaction. However, you have to realize then 375 00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:34.759 the maintainer of that open source project is on the hook to provide value, 376 00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:38.519 right, because people aren't paying for the IP, they're paying for the service 377 00:28:38.599 --> 00:28:44.000 they get around the IP. Yeah, yeah, they're not doing they're not 378 00:28:44.039 --> 00:28:45.839 doing it for fun. I also think you're there's different classes of project, 379 00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:51.880 like clearly Octane, while it has a developer component, has a feature set 380 00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:55.839 that some enterprises are going to value. I would argue that's where your differentiation 381 00:28:55.880 --> 00:28:59.000 comes in. Is often with a paid product, you can add features to 382 00:28:59.119 --> 00:29:03.440 have license or requirements on it for from third parties, or have cloud dependencies, 383 00:29:03.440 --> 00:29:07.720 things that would be valuable to an enterprise but cost money and so only 384 00:29:07.720 --> 00:29:11.359 appear in the commercial license. But I also think you have projects that are 385 00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:18.359 pure internal code libraries that largely aren't licensable or make don't make sense in that 386 00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:22.759 space, and that's where maybe some of these other mechanisms would be more credible. 387 00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:26.160 Although that basically I think this was more Sarah's position. It's like, 388 00:29:26.519 --> 00:29:30.319 listen, if you've taken a dependency on a piece of software chip the guy 389 00:29:30.440 --> 00:29:36.000 twenty bucks, like, come on, I know, yeah, yeah, 390 00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:41.519 especially if it's providing sort of critical functionality. Yeah yeah, because one day 391 00:29:41.720 --> 00:29:45.119 that person has to move on work on other things or job calls, and 392 00:29:45.119 --> 00:29:48.759 there's there's no cycles for it, and you need something and it's not going 393 00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:52.480 to happen. Right. You certainly weren't willing to take on or at least 394 00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:55.559 contribute, Like that's the whole Thing's like a it doesn't have to be money. 395 00:29:55.559 --> 00:29:57.759 It could also be time. Like there are a bunch of ways to 396 00:29:57.759 --> 00:30:02.759 do this. Yeah. One thing that we did here at dot and Nick 397 00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:07.200 when it was just a pure open source project is we would say, like 398 00:30:07.240 --> 00:30:11.400 you could donate. There was there wasn't options for people to donate to the 399 00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:14.519 project, and they would say, well, my company can't really donate, 400 00:30:14.680 --> 00:30:18.359 you know, if you had a commercial license and we'd buy it, because 401 00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:22.440 that's like a traditional sort of procurement purchasing kind of process that companies can do. 402 00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:27.759 Donating to things is not. It's kind of like a foreign concept for 403 00:30:27.799 --> 00:30:32.799 a lot of corporate entity. Yeah, I don't know how to put that 404 00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:37.079 through my payment chain. Now, that's more of a question of getting up 405 00:30:37.079 --> 00:30:40.119 to the CFO and saying, let's build a mechanism for this, which can 406 00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:42.960 be done. It's just that most people think the CFO, you know, 407 00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:48.279 lives on clouds and is unapproachable. Right, there's a palace guard there that 408 00:30:48.279 --> 00:30:52.119 will stab you, and so you know, you just follow the practices or 409 00:30:52.119 --> 00:30:55.640 replace. The idea of creating new business flows is beyond most folks. That's 410 00:30:55.680 --> 00:30:59.440 not what they want to do. And yeah, so I appreciate the idea 411 00:30:59.480 --> 00:31:03.720 of just creating a something that will fit into the existing payment system, makes 412 00:31:03.759 --> 00:31:08.279 life better. It's just easy to do, Sean, when I maybe we 413 00:31:08.279 --> 00:31:11.799 should take a break now, but I have a question for us. Let's 414 00:31:11.799 --> 00:31:14.160 do that. Let's take a break, and we'll be right back with Sean 415 00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:22.000 Walker after this very important message, and we're back stottnet Rocks. I'm Carl 416 00:31:22.039 --> 00:31:26.000 Franklin. That's Richard Campbell, hey, and that's Sean Walker. We're talking 417 00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:29.839 about Octane and open source and all that good stuff. I was looking at 418 00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:34.640 the website earlier this morning and looking for a documentation that a developer would use, 419 00:31:36.079 --> 00:31:41.039 and I ended up in a repo that wasn't like an MD files or 420 00:31:41.079 --> 00:31:45.000 anything that I could read. It was code, And then it said something 421 00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:51.039 about the documentation is generated, and I wondered, if that is generated for 422 00:31:51.519 --> 00:31:55.240 my app that I'm going to build with Octane, or if that's the Octane 423 00:31:55.319 --> 00:31:59.039 docs and how do I actually figure out how to use this thing? Yeah, 424 00:31:59.079 --> 00:32:07.920 so that's a good example of where open source projects often fall short in 425 00:32:07.160 --> 00:32:13.640 providing sort of the services around the project that some people are looking for and 426 00:32:13.720 --> 00:32:20.680 it's very difficult to encourage people to contribute to documentation. For whatever reason, 427 00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:24.079 I've been on the Octane project. I've been hoping for you know, the 428 00:32:24.119 --> 00:32:28.519 last three or four years, that people could step up and provide assistance in 429 00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:30.319 that area, but nobody does. And it was the same without and new. 430 00:32:30.400 --> 00:32:34.200 So I feel like this is just an area where, you know, 431 00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:37.079 in open source, it attracts more of a developer crowd. They want to 432 00:32:37.079 --> 00:32:40.519 write code, they want to maybe test code, they don't want to write 433 00:32:40.519 --> 00:32:45.200 docs. So this is another reason why I feel like I need to create. 434 00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:49.400 In order to get serious with an open source project, you do need 435 00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:52.160 to provide dedicated, paid resources to do some of this work. Right, 436 00:32:52.200 --> 00:32:58.039 I'm going to pay a tech writer to write docs ultimately, and that's just 437 00:32:58.119 --> 00:33:00.160 what's going to be required in order to move the next level or yeah, 438 00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:02.759 or it's just not going to happen. I mean, there's just reality. 439 00:33:02.920 --> 00:33:07.319 Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. I mean it's a it's a 440 00:33:07.319 --> 00:33:10.519 it's a limitation. And if you look at a lot of open source projects, 441 00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:17.680 yeah, you're going to read I'm finding goods. Yeah yeah. But 442 00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:22.680 but and to that point, it's like you often see this absurdity in the 443 00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:23.799 open source community. It's like, why would I pay that guy you know, 444 00:33:23.960 --> 00:33:27.000 just going to spend the money. It's like, now the most likely 445 00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:30.359 thing is going to do is go spend it on people that will do stuff 446 00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:34.839 they're not going to do, right, Yeah, yeah, like invested into 447 00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:38.519 their product to make it better for everyone. Yeah yeah. Yeah. This 448 00:33:38.599 --> 00:33:42.720 isn't buy me a cup of coffee kind of thing. Yeah yeah. But 449 00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:45.599 it's the point, like there's a lot They've always got this long list list 450 00:33:45.640 --> 00:33:49.839 of things that need to get done, and you can only do so many 451 00:33:49.880 --> 00:33:52.359 of them, and there's only certain ones that you're good at too, you 452 00:33:52.400 --> 00:33:57.000 know, like especially if it's a sole maintainer, like they have a particular 453 00:33:57.039 --> 00:34:01.400 skill set. It's not necessarily comprehensive. Writing Documentation is a separate skill and 454 00:34:01.559 --> 00:34:06.960 almost incompatible in some respects. It's hard to be you know, effective at 455 00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:10.800 running a project and also be effective at that much less you know, training 456 00:34:10.840 --> 00:34:15.920 materials and demos and samples, like all of these different skills that come into 457 00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:21.320 play. Yeah. I think that was a large topic of my presentation that 458 00:34:21.480 --> 00:34:25.760 in January was if you're approaching an open source project, you should be thinking 459 00:34:25.800 --> 00:34:30.800 about it as if you were starting a business. Think about all the things 460 00:34:30.800 --> 00:34:35.119 that go into starting a business, right if you're not prepared to follow through 461 00:34:35.119 --> 00:34:37.119 on those things, And maybe starting an open source project is also not a 462 00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:43.000 great idea. Yeah, otherwise you're just going to get buried. Yeah, 463 00:34:43.119 --> 00:34:45.800 and they and the open source maintainer again it can do all the thing is 464 00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:51.679 just as mythical as the full stack developer, right, like you, nobody's 465 00:34:51.719 --> 00:34:55.280 good at everything. It shouldn't work that way, So what some parts of 466 00:34:55.280 --> 00:35:00.079 it are going to fall down unless you get some help. Yeah. You 467 00:35:00.199 --> 00:35:04.199 run into time constraints as well, which is you can't do it. He 468 00:35:04.360 --> 00:35:07.519 be everywhere, You can't do all things. Yeah. And it's also interesting 469 00:35:07.559 --> 00:35:16.239 because even if you do start attracting a decent group of contributors, like Octane 470 00:35:16.360 --> 00:35:21.760 has had more than forty contributors over time. Now, some of them, 471 00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:24.320 you know, just submit you know, a few little poll requests here and 472 00:35:24.360 --> 00:35:29.920 there. Others have done more significant work. But in all those cases it's 473 00:35:29.960 --> 00:35:35.760 on It's up to the maintainer to really vet all those poll requests right interact 474 00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:39.280 with the community. It actually creates a large amount of management work for the 475 00:35:39.320 --> 00:35:45.480 maintainer as you increase the number of contributors, right, because it takes a 476 00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:47.920 long time before a contributor gets to the point where you can trust that they're 477 00:35:47.920 --> 00:35:51.800 going to make all the same decisions that you would make as a maintainer. 478 00:35:51.880 --> 00:35:53.880 Yeah. Well, and they almost certainly won't, even when even when you 479 00:35:53.920 --> 00:35:58.239 do trust them, it's like, I know this person take approaches this differently. 480 00:35:58.760 --> 00:36:00.639 Is that going to be a problem here? And odd? Yeah, 481 00:36:00.639 --> 00:36:02.400 And there's a lot of people out there. We're having this question in the 482 00:36:02.440 --> 00:36:07.960 dot net Foundation right now. People are becoming members of the Foundation and they're 483 00:36:07.960 --> 00:36:09.360 like, we would really like to contribute to the projects. How do we 484 00:36:09.400 --> 00:36:14.280 do that? And it's like, well, first of all, it would 485 00:36:14.280 --> 00:36:15.679 be great if you actually, if if there's a certain project you want to 486 00:36:15.679 --> 00:36:19.599 contribute to, start using that project, like, become a user of it, 487 00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:22.000 understand how it works, Like don't just show up and say I want 488 00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:27.239 to write some code. Yeah, like really understand the use cases that are 489 00:36:27.239 --> 00:36:30.519 involved here, and then you'll start to see whether there are limitations in certain 490 00:36:30.559 --> 00:36:37.559 areas and then and then submit something that's valuable right yeah, so yeah, 491 00:36:37.639 --> 00:36:40.440 well, and getting to that point, it's also a rush when you actually 492 00:36:40.480 --> 00:36:45.960 make those contributions successfully, like it won't be confusing once you've done it, 493 00:36:46.599 --> 00:36:50.519 You know, like that that you're because the amount of engagement it takes you 494 00:36:50.519 --> 00:36:52.760 get to that point where that pr makes sense and makes contribution to the code 495 00:36:52.760 --> 00:36:58.960 base and so forth. That's the hill you climb to be successful. Did 496 00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:02.840 you write Octane all by yourself? A large portion of the code has been 497 00:37:02.840 --> 00:37:07.639 written by me. Yeah, there has been a like I said, a 498 00:37:07.719 --> 00:37:12.960 number of other contributors as well that have contributed in more, some of them 499 00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:16.559 over like over time, some of them in bursts, like one of my 500 00:37:16.639 --> 00:37:20.800 colleagues that I worked with on dot net Newke in fact, Charles Nurse, 501 00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:27.559 helped in making it support multiple databases and so he did a bunch of work 502 00:37:27.559 --> 00:37:30.440 for a couple of months to get that to happen. So that was very 503 00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:34.920 appreciated. And there's been other folks who have been more consistent over time. 504 00:37:35.719 --> 00:37:38.320 But yeah, largely I've written a lot of code, and these contributors are 505 00:37:38.320 --> 00:37:42.880 like, did they come in needing a feature and so write it themselves? 506 00:37:42.920 --> 00:37:47.679 Like shape of the contributors. Yeah, sometimes that's the case. Sometimes you 507 00:37:47.679 --> 00:37:52.800 know they were trying to do something quite unique, and the framework won't have 508 00:37:52.920 --> 00:37:57.599 the specific feature they're looking for, so they'll create it themselves. Other times 509 00:37:58.679 --> 00:38:01.159 it'll be more that maybe I've observed that there's, you know, a gap 510 00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:05.679 in some area, and I'll ask if somebody's interested in filling that gap, 511 00:38:05.800 --> 00:38:10.599 right with a within some some parameters. So yeah, there's there's a few 512 00:38:10.599 --> 00:38:15.039 different ways that people can contribute. So there is a retail version of Octane. 513 00:38:15.679 --> 00:38:20.599 There is not yet that is coming because I only just formed Octane Labs 514 00:38:21.639 --> 00:38:28.119 just within the last month. Now, did you have customers asking you for 515 00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:30.880 a retail version of it? Like? What was the catalyst of this? 516 00:38:30.079 --> 00:38:35.320 Yeah? Yeah, so there were folks reaching out and asking if they could 517 00:38:35.400 --> 00:38:40.480 have like support, like a licensed version that it included support and other kind 518 00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:46.239 of features like that, or could have assistance with implementations, right, so 519 00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:52.440 system integrator type health as well s side side, the tech support side, 520 00:38:52.480 --> 00:38:55.480 like all valid things. So you and that's melis must have been going on 521 00:38:55.559 --> 00:38:58.960 for quite some time that you finally built at the point where it's like, 522 00:38:59.000 --> 00:39:01.559 I think there's a business here. Yeah. Yeah. And then also I 523 00:39:01.559 --> 00:39:07.159 think and Carl would understand this. Microsoft's really done a great job with this 524 00:39:07.559 --> 00:39:12.679 with Blazer, right. This journey with Blazer has been incredible, and they 525 00:39:12.760 --> 00:39:16.000 keep adding on more capabilities as time goes on, and so Octane has been 526 00:39:16.039 --> 00:39:20.599 able to kind of build on top of that ride the wave sort of speak 527 00:39:20.679 --> 00:39:22.719 right, and it's sort of got to a point now where there's a lot 528 00:39:22.760 --> 00:39:25.480 of there's a lot of interesting value right in this, in this product, 529 00:39:25.760 --> 00:39:30.000 and I think it's like the optimal time kind of to you know, create 530 00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:36.679 a commercial entity around it. I am have created a I create a lot 531 00:39:36.719 --> 00:39:40.639 of repos for Blazer Train and the dot net show just a little projects that 532 00:39:40.719 --> 00:39:45.920 I show off. And sometimes I think to myself, should I like put 533 00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:49.599 an MIT license on this, or you know, should I do like it 534 00:39:49.719 --> 00:39:54.159 officially? And I just never do And I'm just wondering if that's a that's 535 00:39:54.159 --> 00:39:58.360 a good idea. I mean, I I basically show them off in YouTube 536 00:39:58.440 --> 00:40:00.800 videos and I bring people to that, and I don't really get a lot 537 00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:07.760 of people contributing back once in a while, but they essentially sort of public 538 00:40:07.800 --> 00:40:10.320 access then people can average the ideas in the code. Absolutely yeah, I 539 00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:14.880 mean I'm doing it for public good, you know, I just want people 540 00:40:14.920 --> 00:40:17.800 to use it and modify it. If they have some modifications, send it 541 00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:21.920 back. And I don't really think anybody's going to say, you know, 542 00:40:22.039 --> 00:40:23.599 steal it and say, hey, look at this great thing. Then I 543 00:40:23.639 --> 00:40:27.639 wrote, you know, I don't care. I don't care about that. 544 00:40:27.760 --> 00:40:30.280 Yeah. I mean, if they're an example and not intended to be a 545 00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:34.880 full blown product, right, then I think you're probably taking the right path 546 00:40:34.960 --> 00:40:38.840 there and providing the most value you can to developers. Right. They're free 547 00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:43.559 to use your ideas however they exactly. Yeah, and if they go to 548 00:40:43.559 --> 00:40:45.599 the trouble of actually turning it into a product, well, fully on them. 549 00:40:45.679 --> 00:40:47.960 That's a lot of work. Yeah, go for it. I'm certainly 550 00:40:47.960 --> 00:40:52.239 not going to do that for a living. Yeah, I mean, who 551 00:40:52.239 --> 00:41:00.679 would do that? Sean write software and for a living, and that's crazy 552 00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:05.800 talk. It does feel that way sometimes, and I did after I got 553 00:41:06.280 --> 00:41:07.679 done with dot at Nuke. I think I did tell myself at one point, 554 00:41:07.719 --> 00:41:13.320 yeah, I'm not doing that again. So. I mean, you 555 00:41:13.559 --> 00:41:19.199 did your blog posts just a few days ago about creating octane labs and yeah 556 00:41:19.320 --> 00:41:22.920 and dead answers and so forth. Have you had much response yet, had 557 00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:27.599 the pitchforks come out? No pitchforks at all actually, and that's one thing 558 00:41:27.639 --> 00:41:30.320 that's been interesting. Yeah. So I don't know if it's just the general 559 00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:37.119 feeling around open sources starting to shift, right. So, I remember the 560 00:41:37.119 --> 00:41:43.679 commercialization of dotnet Nuke was much more tense, more that there was more resistance 561 00:41:43.719 --> 00:41:47.480 in the community. Um this the idea of having a company that was somehow 562 00:41:47.519 --> 00:41:53.800 associated with this open source project was like it really rubbed people the wrong way. 563 00:41:53.840 --> 00:42:00.280 But in this case it's been very fluid. Um. Yeah. I 564 00:42:00.320 --> 00:42:04.800 think that people are maybe it's coming to the realization that in order to have 565 00:42:05.159 --> 00:42:09.840 great software, you sometimes need to have a resource model for it, right, 566 00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:14.039 so that it can provide the services people need to make a living. 567 00:42:14.840 --> 00:42:21.079 Yeah, like con and it's reasonable to do so. And arguably like Octane's 568 00:42:21.079 --> 00:42:24.519 about to get better because it's got the full attention of Sean Walker, and 569 00:42:25.440 --> 00:42:30.159 you're also going to get As people pay for this product, they're going to 570 00:42:30.159 --> 00:42:34.000 put new pressures on you as well, and that will shape the product also, 571 00:42:34.039 --> 00:42:37.880 it'll make the product better. That definitely happened in DNN. So as 572 00:42:37.880 --> 00:42:42.000 soon as we had a commercial license, then there were certain types of companies 573 00:42:42.320 --> 00:42:45.159 that maybe had been toying with the idea of using it. But then they 574 00:42:45.199 --> 00:42:50.639 became real users and they they don't want to share their ideas about how to 575 00:42:50.639 --> 00:42:53.199 make the product better in a public form, so they would like to have 576 00:42:53.239 --> 00:42:58.000 a private place right to interact with you. And so a lot of great 577 00:42:58.039 --> 00:43:01.159 ideas came through those channels, right yeah, and they were real ideas that 578 00:43:01.199 --> 00:43:06.119 could be put into the field. Like this is no speculation. This is 579 00:43:06.199 --> 00:43:07.840 you know, not just dashing an issue. It's like, Okay, we've 580 00:43:07.880 --> 00:43:12.159 gone this far with your product. Here's the walls we're hitting. How do 581 00:43:12.199 --> 00:43:16.800 we get past these? Exactly? Yeah, just like any commercial software product, 582 00:43:16.840 --> 00:43:21.760 right, they get better based on the usage and based on the feedback 583 00:43:21.760 --> 00:43:24.480 that you get from the community. And you don't always get the full feedback 584 00:43:24.519 --> 00:43:28.400 in an open source project. A lot of people are just driving by. 585 00:43:28.719 --> 00:43:30.679 They'll use it, they'll run into a wall, and then they won't tell 586 00:43:30.719 --> 00:43:34.840 you that they don't. They just move on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 587 00:43:34.920 --> 00:43:39.360 next thing. So yeah, it's interesting. The financial commitment is an 588 00:43:39.400 --> 00:43:45.400 interesting element of engagement. You know. I've certainly run into that on the 589 00:43:45.519 --> 00:43:49.840 ht box side, where giving away the software is as much a problem as 590 00:43:49.880 --> 00:43:53.920 a benefit, because it's hard for people to value free software. Yeah, 591 00:43:54.119 --> 00:43:59.920 it's the same as with your conference activities. To a free conference versus a 592 00:44:00.039 --> 00:44:02.920 paid conference, you get a whole different type of attendee. I get it. 593 00:44:02.960 --> 00:44:07.159 You had fifty percent fall off, right Like, so you know you've 594 00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:10.360 gone and gotten food through sponsorship and then half of it doesn't get eaten when 595 00:44:10.519 --> 00:44:14.000 when things are free, like in some ways, I'm like, at least 596 00:44:14.239 --> 00:44:19.400 charge one hundred bucks enough that people will show up, right just because of 597 00:44:19.480 --> 00:44:23.719 you know that kind of pain. Um, yeah, I'm I'm with you. 598 00:44:23.800 --> 00:44:29.039 It's like money is also an expression of intent. It is. It's 599 00:44:29.039 --> 00:44:31.760 like, if you're gonna have a you know, a party, and you 600 00:44:31.960 --> 00:44:35.880 put an event right thing out there something like that, and you want to 601 00:44:35.960 --> 00:44:39.400 charge money, don't say, you know, twenty dollars at the door or 602 00:44:39.519 --> 00:44:44.320 ten dollars at the door, because people will reserve a spot, you'll go 603 00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:47.119 buy all your food and party stuff, and then nobody will show up because 604 00:44:47.199 --> 00:44:52.480 they didn't have any commitment in any skin in the game ticket not enough. 605 00:44:52.760 --> 00:44:54.760 Well, sell tickets ahead of time. Just don't say bring the money at 606 00:44:54.760 --> 00:44:59.920 the door, right Yeah. I learned that the hard way too, Yeah 607 00:45:00.880 --> 00:45:02.239 yeah, yeah. And again it's like, how do you get the commitment 608 00:45:02.280 --> 00:45:06.519 from it. The real the real question is how the product ultimately gets shaped 609 00:45:06.559 --> 00:45:09.440 and things have changed, Like I gotta think there's areas of development that you 610 00:45:09.480 --> 00:45:15.320 wouldn't do unless you had the commercial aspects, just because they invariably have an 611 00:45:15.320 --> 00:45:19.440 expense, right, like the old cloud proxy thing. Like and I'm an 612 00:45:19.480 --> 00:45:23.519 admirer of the home Assistant open source project and how they transform themselves because it 613 00:45:23.639 --> 00:45:29.719 became apparent they needed a cloud proxy and charging people five bucks a month for 614 00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:34.559 the cloud proxy change the whole dynamic. It brought a lot of money to 615 00:45:34.639 --> 00:45:37.079 the equation because it made and it made a huge difference there, Like it 616 00:45:37.119 --> 00:45:40.239 doesn't have to be a complicated thing, but it's also a thing that is 617 00:45:40.360 --> 00:45:46.159 not free because it can't be operated for free, and that sort of just 618 00:45:46.360 --> 00:45:51.440 shapes the equation. Now. It's like your customer relationship changes, the opportunity 619 00:45:51.440 --> 00:45:55.599 space changes, the expectations change, and generally for the better if you're prepared, 620 00:45:57.000 --> 00:45:59.239 Like I have every confidence in you, Sean. We've don't showed it 621 00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:01.239 a long time, You've been down this road before, but I think a 622 00:46:01.239 --> 00:46:06.679 lot of maintainers looking for I really want to do this project as a living 623 00:46:06.800 --> 00:46:09.039 just don't have an idea of what's going to happen to you right when you 624 00:46:09.079 --> 00:46:14.840 turn when you switch commercial, right, yeah, Yeah, And it is 625 00:46:14.840 --> 00:46:22.280 a matter of thinking about creating a real business around it and and what's entailed 626 00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:23.280 in doing that. And I guess you're right A lot of a lot of 627 00:46:23.320 --> 00:46:27.960 maintainers are just developers who have always just worked for other companies, yeah, 628 00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:30.679 and don't have any insight into, you know, the business aspects of that. 629 00:46:31.519 --> 00:46:35.199 Yeah. And I would have to say even when I got like when 630 00:46:35.199 --> 00:46:37.480 I transitioned in Dot and Nuke, I was pretty naive, right too, 631 00:46:38.400 --> 00:46:43.840 all that was involved. It was a lot. It was also very early 632 00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:46.320 days, like open source wasn't really a thing in the in the Microsoft community 633 00:46:46.400 --> 00:46:51.199 when you guys were first headed down that like that was part of the problem, 634 00:46:51.280 --> 00:46:54.760 I thought, and you make mistakes, Yeah, yeah, it was. 635 00:46:58.119 --> 00:47:02.039 It wasn't a friendly environment towards open source at all, definitely from Microsoft, 636 00:47:02.079 --> 00:47:05.440 although there was certain pockets, right, Like there was always the folks 637 00:47:05.440 --> 00:47:08.800 like Scott Guthrie, that team that was very pro open source, right, 638 00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:13.039 and so they're the ones who sponsored gotten that knuke great in the early days, 639 00:47:14.239 --> 00:47:19.920 Hanselman and Hack and Connery and like the Ninja Army. Yeah, yeah, 640 00:47:20.079 --> 00:47:23.800 they transformed the company kind of from the inside out, right, Yeah, 641 00:47:24.079 --> 00:47:27.559 some ways. You know, someday I might actually finish the book that 642 00:47:27.599 --> 00:47:30.840 explains a lot of that stuff. It's a very interesting set of forces, 643 00:47:30.920 --> 00:47:35.000 Like Richard, I am to come there and like, babysit you to write 644 00:47:35.039 --> 00:47:37.760 this book. Do I need to bring some whiskey? I think I need 645 00:47:37.880 --> 00:47:45.440 riddle it actually, But you know, there's this great moment and I've never 646 00:47:45.480 --> 00:47:51.119 fully written this part out where leadership has figured out that it's essential, and 647 00:47:51.400 --> 00:47:53.519 there's folks down in the trenches that have figured out that it's essential, but 648 00:47:53.559 --> 00:47:57.800 the folks in the middle still haven't gotten it yet. And there's this sort 649 00:47:57.840 --> 00:48:00.639 of pressure. How do you push in, Like you don't want to dictate 650 00:48:00.679 --> 00:48:02.639 from on high, You wanted to come from grass roots, but they were 651 00:48:02.679 --> 00:48:06.960 resisting all that time. Like this is this fascinating moment where it's like, 652 00:48:07.239 --> 00:48:09.519 you know, two thirds of you guys are on the same side. You 653 00:48:09.639 --> 00:48:15.599 just don't know. Interesting, but that seemed to happen when Satya kind of 654 00:48:15.719 --> 00:48:21.880 came in right that maybe it was coincidental that had happened at that time, 655 00:48:21.880 --> 00:48:24.880 but that seemed to be there was a big shift that happened. Yeah, 656 00:48:25.159 --> 00:48:29.920 we definitely then the leadership was in that space. And one would argue that 657 00:48:30.199 --> 00:48:35.159 that Bomber realized that he was an obstacle to the new company and so needed 658 00:48:35.199 --> 00:48:37.840 to move on too. But this really comes down to the shift of the 659 00:48:37.880 --> 00:48:42.599 cloud, because the shift of the cloud means I just want workloads and if 660 00:48:42.599 --> 00:48:45.840 some of them are open source whatever, Right, We're not a Windows companymore, 661 00:48:45.840 --> 00:48:49.519 We're a cloud company. And so you know, and you look at 662 00:48:49.519 --> 00:48:52.079 it now, like forty percent of there were cloathes or Linux. Yeah, 663 00:48:52.280 --> 00:48:55.719 because who cares? They make their own flavor or Linux. For crying out 664 00:48:55.719 --> 00:49:00.119 loud, there's like half a diven different flavors of Linus you can download from 665 00:49:00.119 --> 00:49:07.199 the Windows Store. The Windows Store at a different time it is from when 666 00:49:07.199 --> 00:49:09.679 we started. I was actually talking to my brother yesterday because and he worked 667 00:49:09.719 --> 00:49:17.559 with me in DNN Corp. And we got a lot of partnership value from 668 00:49:17.559 --> 00:49:22.159 Microsoft in like the twenty like two thousand and nine through twenty and twelve era 669 00:49:22.559 --> 00:49:28.639 because they were still fixated on competing with Linux and Php and WordPress, you 670 00:49:28.719 --> 00:49:31.000 know, all of those, yes, and they wanted to showcase that there 671 00:49:31.000 --> 00:49:36.039 were options available on Windows, like native options, right. Dot Nuke was 672 00:49:36.039 --> 00:49:40.559 one of those options, and so we got a lot of marketing visibility as 673 00:49:40.559 --> 00:49:44.440 a result of that. Right, But yeah, that is not the world 674 00:49:44.440 --> 00:49:46.239 we're in anymore. No, not at all. Right now, it's embrace 675 00:49:46.320 --> 00:49:51.159 everyone, which is great. Well I'm not saying that's a bad thing. 676 00:49:51.360 --> 00:49:54.559 And also trying to interoperate too, That's all part of it is like can 677 00:49:54.559 --> 00:49:57.800 we all work and play well with each other? Like in some ways the 678 00:49:57.800 --> 00:50:01.079 operating systems just kind of become irrelevant. I don't care. Just can you 679 00:50:01.159 --> 00:50:05.880 can you consume my Jason feter or not? You know? That's what that's 680 00:50:05.880 --> 00:50:10.440 what as matters. I had the surreal experience of having this conversation with my 681 00:50:10.480 --> 00:50:16.039 wife which culminated in her admitting she didn't know what the operating system was, 682 00:50:17.039 --> 00:50:21.960 you know, and and I think most users don't know Windows. What's Windows? 683 00:50:22.239 --> 00:50:23.960 Kind of a it's a good day, isn't it? Yeah? Because 684 00:50:23.960 --> 00:50:28.199 it is a releavant. Well, what's what's Windows? Windows? You know? 685 00:50:28.360 --> 00:50:30.039 The operating system? What's that? I mean? Is that the my 686 00:50:30.119 --> 00:50:35.159 tabs? Or is it the things on my desktop? Is that Windows? 687 00:50:35.320 --> 00:50:39.840 Yeah? You know, it's hard it's hard to know. Yeah, you 688 00:50:39.840 --> 00:50:44.480 know that desktop Windows. If you weren't around you know, and you didn't 689 00:50:44.519 --> 00:50:50.280 understand what part of the technical terms the hardcore Mac users that's Windows. Yeah, 690 00:50:50.320 --> 00:50:54.679 that's true. I love telling this story when I when I was younger, 691 00:50:54.960 --> 00:50:59.280 um, because I was a PC guy in this Mac guy came up 692 00:50:59.280 --> 00:51:02.519 to me, was learning programming stuff. What what are these things called files? 693 00:51:05.119 --> 00:51:07.920 What's a file? You didn't know because you know his environment was draggy, 694 00:51:07.960 --> 00:51:13.199 droppy and documents and whatever. Well, that's dial the norm. Most 695 00:51:13.239 --> 00:51:15.159 people don't know where they're stuff stored anymore because it just gets stored and they 696 00:51:15.159 --> 00:51:19.159 can find it when they need it. Yeah. The idea that lives on 697 00:51:19.199 --> 00:51:22.920 a Google drive or a one drive or any of those. How many Who 698 00:51:22.159 --> 00:51:28.920 doesn't matter? Who makes good hard disk hierarchies anymore? Right, Yeah, 699 00:51:29.079 --> 00:51:32.960 nobody sort of thing. Yeah, even when I had folders to Google Drive 700 00:51:34.039 --> 00:51:37.679 or something like that, I don't. I don't make folders and subfolders and 701 00:51:37.679 --> 00:51:39.639 stuff. I just make documents because you can just find him by searching. 702 00:51:40.119 --> 00:51:43.840 Yeah, it doesn't matter, It doesn't matter. On the on the topic 703 00:51:43.880 --> 00:51:45.280 of books, So you've been working on a book a long time, Richard. 704 00:51:45.519 --> 00:51:50.800 Yeah, but um, have you noticed that there seems to be a 705 00:51:50.880 --> 00:51:54.679 lot more technical books coming out again? Like it felt like I thought books 706 00:51:54.679 --> 00:51:59.960 were going away, but I keep seeing more and more announcements on things like 707 00:52:00.119 --> 00:52:05.119 LinkedIn about people writing books. I think the publication costs have dropped enough now 708 00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:08.480 that they the then minimum number of sales for it to be worthwhile for the 709 00:52:08.480 --> 00:52:13.519 publisher is small. Well, when you say publisher, are most people self 710 00:52:13.559 --> 00:52:16.159 publishing? Now? Some folks are, But the drive you're seeing right now, 711 00:52:16.199 --> 00:52:21.199 it's like I get a lot of messages from different publishers that now have 712 00:52:21.320 --> 00:52:24.360 new engines and are keen to find authors of things. Yeah, I mean 713 00:52:24.360 --> 00:52:29.039 I most likely will self published the history of dot net. Yeah, I 714 00:52:29.079 --> 00:52:31.079 hadn't really excited. I think it's become pretty clear that most people just want 715 00:52:31.119 --> 00:52:36.360 the audiobook anyway, I want the coffee table book with the glossy photos and 716 00:52:36.400 --> 00:52:39.639 everything, totally. Yeah, they reaction to Really, nobody's going to read 717 00:52:39.679 --> 00:52:44.159 the physical book. What they want is to spine in their video shop behind 718 00:52:44.199 --> 00:52:47.400 them, right that it says history down, that's what the library. Yeah, 719 00:52:47.599 --> 00:52:50.880 and then it may be on their kindle and it might be you know, 720 00:52:51.000 --> 00:52:52.960 in there and on their phone. Yeah, and that's really what's going 721 00:52:53.000 --> 00:52:57.719 to happen, and that and the director's commentary, I'll tell all the ridiculous 722 00:52:57.760 --> 00:53:05.079 stories of trying to assemble the stupid Yeah. All right, well, where 723 00:53:05.519 --> 00:53:07.159 where are we going next? Here? Sean? What's what's next for you? 724 00:53:09.679 --> 00:53:15.800 Like? So this release for dot at seven obviously coming up this month, 725 00:53:15.840 --> 00:53:20.119 but then moving towards course dotin at eight. There's a lot of changes 726 00:53:20.320 --> 00:53:24.119 coming with Blazer, a lot of interesting possibilities with this new server side rendering 727 00:53:24.159 --> 00:53:28.840 model, right, So I'm trying to wrap my head around that because there's 728 00:53:28.880 --> 00:53:34.760 some things that we did in Octane which are you know, pushing the envelope 729 00:53:34.760 --> 00:53:37.840 a little, Like, for example, we don't use the default Blazer router. 730 00:53:37.119 --> 00:53:42.480 We have our own custom router, and there are you know, certain 731 00:53:42.519 --> 00:53:46.320 dependencies that have kind of emerged over time that are dependent on the default routers. 732 00:53:46.320 --> 00:53:51.159 So we have to figure out how to reconcile those differences to unleash this 733 00:53:51.239 --> 00:53:58.320 new functionality. So how have you found the process of updating Blazer projects or 734 00:53:58.360 --> 00:54:01.800 any project for that matter. M one version of dot net to the next, 735 00:54:01.800 --> 00:54:06.440 and I don't mean dot Net Windows Framework. Um, you know, 736 00:54:06.559 --> 00:54:12.400 done Core from say done or three to five to six to seven? How 737 00:54:12.480 --> 00:54:15.159 many of those have you done? And have you found them as easy as 738 00:54:15.159 --> 00:54:17.199 everybody says they are. Yeah, so I've done all the full sort of 739 00:54:17.440 --> 00:54:21.960 you know, version upgrades, and it's been seamless, to be honest, 740 00:54:22.360 --> 00:54:27.880 like, and that's pretty amazing considering that Octane is a pretty large codebase at 741 00:54:27.920 --> 00:54:31.000 this point. UM. But like, for example, moving from six to 742 00:54:31.079 --> 00:54:36.800 seven was like just changing the references. That's there was not a single breaking 743 00:54:36.880 --> 00:54:40.440 change. Wow, And yeah there was, and I think even from five 744 00:54:40.519 --> 00:54:46.960 to six it was like very minimal animal yeah, yeah, yeah, So 745 00:54:47.400 --> 00:54:52.760 Microsoft's done a very good job at that um And in fact, it's it's 746 00:54:52.800 --> 00:54:57.559 interesting because when I talk to other folks that are in other ecosystems like Angular, 747 00:54:58.480 --> 00:55:04.679 especially Angular, they seem to be really frustrated at the breaking changes that 748 00:55:04.760 --> 00:55:08.679 happened constantly in every release. Right, So this is a real advantage I 749 00:55:08.719 --> 00:55:13.800 think for Blazer, certainly, Angular one to two was the most painful, 750 00:55:13.840 --> 00:55:16.320 I think, wasn't it. I think lately it's been super painful even with 751 00:55:16.760 --> 00:55:22.239 recent versions. Jeez, what are they out at sixteen? Like this should 752 00:55:22.280 --> 00:55:25.199 be smoothed that by now, but I would argue that Blazer being such a 753 00:55:25.280 --> 00:55:30.320 young product, it would be more likely to twitch more. Agreed, But 754 00:55:30.360 --> 00:55:35.639 I think you're also dealing with a very experienced team that does know how to 755 00:55:35.760 --> 00:55:38.320 smooth a lot of this. Yes, I was going to say that, 756 00:55:38.440 --> 00:55:43.079 you know, when Steve Sanderson had that first demo, you look at the 757 00:55:43.119 --> 00:55:45.960 first demo, not a whole lot has changed in the component model since that 758 00:55:46.159 --> 00:55:51.239 very first demo he did at NDC. Granted it was pretty simple, but 759 00:55:51.360 --> 00:55:53.400 I mean, and things have been added to it, but it still kind 760 00:55:53.400 --> 00:55:57.480 of looks the same, and the underlying cobase has been completely changed, but 761 00:55:57.559 --> 00:56:00.039 they have not moved away from the core meta. Yes, I don't know 762 00:56:00.119 --> 00:56:02.960 the Blazer United is even on your radar, you Sean, because it's not 763 00:56:04.119 --> 00:56:07.760 really Yeah no, that's what I was talking to about the servers, Yeah, 764 00:56:07.840 --> 00:56:12.599 because I think they're moving away from that United name. Yeah, it's 765 00:56:12.639 --> 00:56:17.400 like a United concept now it's going to be yeah yeah, yeah, But 766 00:56:17.480 --> 00:56:22.400 yeah, I'm excited about that because like in a in an application like Octane, 767 00:56:22.440 --> 00:56:29.239 there are certainly pages where there is just content that could be rendered and 768 00:56:29.280 --> 00:56:32.760 not necessarily anything that's interacting, and that's a perfect candidate for server side rendering. 769 00:56:34.400 --> 00:56:37.880 Yeah, so yeah, I think it's a good fit. Yeah. 770 00:56:37.880 --> 00:56:39.960 Why I push that stuff to the client, you'll get you'll get good results 771 00:56:40.199 --> 00:56:45.400 without doing that. So just it's just the ability for you as the manager 772 00:56:45.440 --> 00:56:47.880 of that CMS to go through today, how that can be server that's best 773 00:56:47.880 --> 00:56:52.840 client, you know, and so on and yeahs and that should produce better 774 00:56:52.880 --> 00:56:55.280 performance of the application in general because it doesn't have to render things twice. 775 00:56:55.599 --> 00:57:00.840 Yeah. Yeah. And it's to be interesting. Yeah, it's going to 776 00:57:00.880 --> 00:57:05.159 be. It's a good ride. And do you think people are finally gotten 777 00:57:05.199 --> 00:57:08.559 past the idea that this is the next silver Light Yeah? God, thank 778 00:57:08.599 --> 00:57:13.559 god for that. You still every once in a while I still get some 779 00:57:13.639 --> 00:57:17.440 pushback on that and I have to explain it all over again. Yeah, 780 00:57:17.840 --> 00:57:22.199 I mean people are still angry. It's remarkable as long ago as it was, 781 00:57:22.599 --> 00:57:27.119 But that's because Microsoft has a history of always building paths for developers going 782 00:57:27.119 --> 00:57:32.039 forward, and silver LIGHTY is just glaring hole of except there where you did 783 00:57:32.079 --> 00:57:37.920 nothing. You basically abandoned us. We're five or six years into this now, 784 00:57:37.960 --> 00:57:44.440 so it's pretty clear that there's like a roadmap. Yeah, And of 785 00:57:44.440 --> 00:57:47.639 course the difference between the plug in model and web assembly is remarkable. And 786 00:57:47.960 --> 00:57:52.719 you know, the thing is is that maybe the real thing about silver Light 787 00:57:52.760 --> 00:57:57.199 to what would have prevented that was making it in the first place, because 788 00:57:57.239 --> 00:58:00.039 at the time, the plug in model was the only way to do it 789 00:58:00.519 --> 00:58:05.320 in the browser, and it wasn't secure and it wasn't safe. And should 790 00:58:05.360 --> 00:58:07.800 they have known that, you know that, I don't know. Yeah, 791 00:58:07.840 --> 00:58:10.800 they were competing for against flash, right, like that was what they're right, 792 00:58:10.880 --> 00:58:15.920 we're concerned about it, and it got transformed into something more. But 793 00:58:16.039 --> 00:58:19.599 I mean, you know, that's in twenty ten. In April, it 794 00:58:19.719 --> 00:58:24.320 was the way to build enterprise out and by November it was nowhere, basically 795 00:58:24.679 --> 00:58:29.639 disappeared, but not even announce just yeah, there were no sessions at PDC 796 00:58:29.960 --> 00:58:31.960 like that was a thing. But that's also when they were freaking out about 797 00:58:31.960 --> 00:58:35.639 what would become win A, so they were all pretty locked out. I 798 00:58:35.679 --> 00:58:37.159 mean, it was a very bizarre time. I don't expect to be repeated, 799 00:58:37.159 --> 00:58:40.119 No, I don't. I don't see that happening again. But I 800 00:58:40.119 --> 00:58:43.920 mean, look at the differences in Blazer too. Ye open source right, 801 00:58:44.239 --> 00:58:46.760 like Microsoft could walk away from it, but the code ain't going to disappear 802 00:58:47.079 --> 00:58:55.440 and everybody uses everybody embraces web assembly, everybody even Safari. Yeah finally, 803 00:58:55.519 --> 00:58:59.880 but yes, and all of that is true. I still think a lot 804 00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:04.000 out of the folks that came up are coming out of web Forms are enamtor 805 00:59:04.039 --> 00:59:08.559 Blazer because it's the all C sharp experience. Y Yeah. It's surprising how 806 00:59:08.599 --> 00:59:15.360 many web forms applications are still out there yep. And millions don't have I 807 00:59:15.440 --> 00:59:19.000 don't think really a good path forwards. No, I just wonder how many 808 00:59:19.000 --> 00:59:22.480 of them are no longer buildable. Why, like the companies depend on them, 809 00:59:22.480 --> 00:59:24.519 but yeah, the code basis, they don't have a working de environment 810 00:59:24.519 --> 00:59:28.440 for We did a new version of an app for that was a web forms 811 00:59:28.480 --> 00:59:31.440 app for a customer and when you know, I said, so, so 812 00:59:31.599 --> 00:59:36.360 what's your timeline? He's like, well, I'm not so sure this is 813 00:59:36.360 --> 00:59:40.159 gonna make it through the winter. Like you know, it's running with duct 814 00:59:40.199 --> 00:59:45.760 tape and bailing wire crashes often, and you know, we may not see 815 00:59:45.760 --> 00:59:47.639 it towards the end of the couple of months. There's a couple of assists 816 00:59:47.639 --> 00:59:52.000 admins that have written a whole bunch of scripts to keep rebooting things or restarting 817 00:59:52.400 --> 00:59:55.760 repairing stuff and so forth, and they're all tired. Yeah I know, 818 00:59:58.400 --> 01:00:00.519 yeah, I feel sorry for the people and had to deal with that stuff 819 01:00:00.599 --> 01:00:06.519 back then. Now it's a kickwalk compared to that. I still keep running 820 01:00:06.519 --> 01:00:08.840 across dot at nukes sites out in the wild. In fact, like my 821 01:00:09.000 --> 01:00:13.960 local municipality where I live, they have a dotinet nukes site running their public 822 01:00:14.039 --> 01:00:20.119 utilities site still and probably a vintage site like A four like probably yeah, 823 01:00:20.239 --> 01:00:23.039 yeah, so well, any this the thing is you find these little nooks 824 01:00:23.039 --> 01:00:29.000 and crannies of unmaintained software that the company has a dependency on there, you 825 01:00:29.039 --> 01:00:32.320 know, way out of date on versions, probably don't have a working dev 826 01:00:32.400 --> 01:00:35.920 environment, more that they couldn't build it if they even wanted to, much 827 01:00:36.039 --> 01:00:39.119 less that you'd have any chance I'm doing. Do you have an upgrade path 828 01:00:39.320 --> 01:00:45.000 for dot net nuke users to get their content running and octane. Not a 829 01:00:45.000 --> 01:00:49.679 automated one, but I believe there could definitely be one created because, like 830 01:00:49.679 --> 01:00:53.559 I said, the data models are very similar, so the data would move 831 01:00:53.599 --> 01:00:57.920 across. But the apps, like if you have custom modules that you wrote 832 01:00:58.039 --> 01:01:00.480 for of course web forms, they would have to be rewrit shirtleaser components. 833 01:01:01.039 --> 01:01:05.199 No, we do way to do that. Yeah, well, congratulations man, 834 01:01:05.239 --> 01:01:07.719 I mean I'm hoping we'll you'll help me back to talk about how the 835 01:01:07.760 --> 01:01:15.800 commercialization side is going on and the land mines you haven't seen yet. I'd 836 01:01:15.800 --> 01:01:20.159 be happy to be back you two, Sean, take care and thanks for 837 01:01:20.239 --> 01:01:45.280 listening, and we'll see you next time. I'm dot net Rocks. Dot 838 01:01:45.280 --> 01:01:49.679 net Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios, 839 01:01:50.039 --> 01:01:54.320 a full service audio, video and post production facility located physically in New London, 840 01:01:54.360 --> 01:02:00.960 Connecticut, and of course in the cloud online at pwop dot com. 841 01:02:00.239 --> 01:02:04.719 Visit our website at d O T N E t R O c ks dot 842 01:02:04.719 --> 01:02:09.119 com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments, and access to 843 01:02:09.159 --> 01:02:14.840 the full archives going back to show number one, recorded in September two thousand 844 01:02:14.880 --> 01:02:17.320 and two. And make sure you check out our sponsors. They keep us 845 01:02:17.320 --> 01:02:22.760 in business. Now go write some code, see you next time. You 846 01:02:22.880 --> 01:02:23.199 got a Dan