1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:04,759 How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with no ads? Easy? 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:09,880 Become a patron For just five dollars a month you get access to a private 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:14,359 RSS feed where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month will 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:18,800 get you that and a special dot net Rocks patron mug. Sign up now 5 00:00:18,839 --> 00:00:24,760 at Patreon dot dot net rocks dot com. Hey Carlin Richard here. As 6 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:30,120 you may have heard, NDC is back offering their incredible in person conferences around 7 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:34,640 the world, and we'd like to tell you about them. NDC Copenhagen is 8 00:00:34,679 --> 00:00:40,320 happening August twenty seventh through the thirty first. Go to NDC Copenhagen dot com 9 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:45,719 for more information. NDC Porto is happening October sixteenth through the twentieth. The 10 00:00:45,759 --> 00:00:50,719 early bird discount for ADC Porto ends July twenty first. Go to Dcporto dot 11 00:00:50,799 --> 00:00:56,039 com to register and check out the full lineup of conferences at NDC Conferences dot 12 00:00:56,079 --> 00:01:00,880 com. Hey there, this is Jeff Fritz, the purple blazer guy from 13 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:04,359 Microsoft, letting you in on a little secret about my friend Carl Franklin. 14 00:01:06,079 --> 00:01:08,760 You know, the guy who started dot net rocks. The first podcast about 15 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:14,640 dot Net in two thousand and two. The guy who's been teaching Blazer on 16 00:01:14,719 --> 00:01:19,760 YouTube since twenty twenty, Yeah, that Carl Franklin. Well, Carl's joined 17 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:23,680 up with the folks from Code in a Castle to teach a week long hands 18 00:01:23,719 --> 00:01:29,599 on Blazer class. Are you ready to get this? At a castle slash 19 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:34,840 villa in Tuscany. It's sort of a luxury vacation with Blazer learning built in. 20 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:42,920 Carl's calling it the Blazer Master Class. You'll learn Blazer from the ground 21 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:47,640 up, finishing the week with the ability to build and deploy Blazer applications. 22 00:01:48,799 --> 00:01:52,599 Since the training happens for only four hours in the morning over six days, 23 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,599 you can bring your significant other, your partner with you and you should right 24 00:01:57,359 --> 00:02:01,920 This part of Italy's absolutely beautiful. There's so much to see and do, 25 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:07,840 and in Larion Marco from Code in a Castle are organizing daily activities both at 26 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:13,080 the castle and in the area. The castle is in the Marema, a 27 00:02:13,159 --> 00:02:17,840 less touristed region of Tuscany, offering both classic Tuscan hill country as well as 28 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:23,840 easy access to the Etruscan Riviera, with sublime local food, wine and olive 29 00:02:23,879 --> 00:02:29,599 oil around every corner. Breakfast is included. Every day there will be two 30 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:34,400 communal dinners at the castle book ending the experience, and most other meals and 31 00:02:34,599 --> 00:02:38,800 all activities are included. And did I mention you'll learn Blazer in person from 32 00:02:38,879 --> 00:02:44,759 Carl Franklin. Listen, space is limited and for very good reason. This 33 00:02:44,879 --> 00:02:50,520 is quality training in a beautiful setting. Go to code in Acastle dot com 34 00:02:50,879 --> 00:02:58,280 slash Blazer twenty twenty three that's bla z o R two zero two three to 35 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:04,000 take advantage of this amazing opportunity to join Carl in Tuscany for an unforgettable week 36 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:17,840 of La dolce vita while advancing your programming skills in this important new technology. 37 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:25,639 Welcome back to dot net Rocks. Is Carl Franklin, and this is Richard 38 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:30,800 Cavill. And uh, we're starting like a five show recording run, aren't 39 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,560 we. I think we've already done part of it, just been the next 40 00:03:34,599 --> 00:03:40,039 one days carry us down through into into July. So I really do enjoy 41 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:44,879 to any shows with you and our guests over the years. It's been a 42 00:03:45,199 --> 00:03:49,080 it's been an amazing ride in a long time. And I have a better 43 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,800 no framework for us all guys. Oh by yeah, so roll the music 44 00:03:52,879 --> 00:04:08,879 awesome at well Gate is still making non SSD drives. The current technology for 45 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:14,199 platter drives that they're using is h AMR spinning rusts. Yeah, I know 46 00:04:14,439 --> 00:04:18,000 right. H A m R stands for Why Richard Heat assisted magnetic recording, 47 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:24,040 right, So they actually heat up the platters so that you can put more 48 00:04:24,079 --> 00:04:28,079 bits on the metal or something. We just come up with new tricks ways 49 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:36,920 to align rust atoms really precisely. Pretty crazy. Thirty two terabytes they're coming 50 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:43,519 up to. Wow, they're gonna give you a thirty two terabyte regular SATA 51 00:04:43,639 --> 00:04:50,040 drive, Yeah, and followed by a forty terabyte SAT. I don't have 52 00:04:50,199 --> 00:04:54,759 enough stuff, I know, right, isn't that nuts? Yeah? I 53 00:04:54,759 --> 00:04:59,000 think gonna I'm gonna open up a competitor to uh, you know, Dropbox. 54 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:00,480 That's what I'm gonna do. You're just gonna buy like a million of 55 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:04,480 these things. Oh man, not, that's amazing. Not anyway. I 56 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:10,240 still do use some of these drives, but only ten terabytes. As hard 57 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,199 as I go, a mere ten terabytes. Yeah, I think I've got 58 00:05:13,399 --> 00:05:18,240 I've got four twelves in my synology. But it is interesting to consider the 59 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:23,000 idea that, yeah, you could triple that easily with four new drives. 60 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,600 I can't imagine they'll be all that cheap, but it is amazing to see 61 00:05:26,639 --> 00:05:30,279 that they're still innovating in the space. Yep, it is cool. Anyway. 62 00:05:30,399 --> 00:05:32,360 That's when I have for the old guys. Great talking to us today, 63 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:36,519 Richard. I grabbed a comment top of the show eighteen eighteen which I 64 00:05:36,519 --> 00:05:41,000 don't think you'd be surprised, you know that I went back to David Whitney's 65 00:05:41,079 --> 00:05:46,319 Well, of course that that show we did at INDC and OSLOW kicked off 66 00:05:46,319 --> 00:05:50,480 a lot of conversation and still does to this day. I think this would 67 00:05:50,519 --> 00:05:55,199 be like the fourth comment I've read from that show. So this is from 68 00:05:55,319 --> 00:05:58,560 Joseph hiller Up, who said, I think the basic idea is great and 69 00:05:58,639 --> 00:06:00,720 needed, but the actual and Holman will need to be refined to work, 70 00:06:00,759 --> 00:06:05,600 which is how do we pay open source maintainers? One issue that comes to 71 00:06:05,639 --> 00:06:10,360 mind is how funny would work when an open source library uses another open source 72 00:06:10,399 --> 00:06:14,240 library. I mean, who gets paid by whom and how much? So 73 00:06:14,399 --> 00:06:16,759 you know, if the funding model was based on utilization, that's an interesting 74 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:23,720 problem. Should should the one project help fund the other because they are to 75 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,800 have dependency on it. Another is the funding model would work fine for startups 76 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,439 and the like, but it wouldn't work a lot and enterprise organizations and need 77 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,639 contracts and possible even vendors to be located in certain countries when paying out significants 78 00:06:33,639 --> 00:06:36,560 amounts of money for licenses. Yeah, I don't know that that's true. 79 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:41,319 I think every organization can approach it the way they want to. It'll be 80 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:46,079 more about the standards around what you're expected to do. But I don't see 81 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:50,920 this as payment. I see this as donation. Realistically, making contributions just 82 00:06:50,959 --> 00:06:55,480 to keep that thing going. If you want certainty, hire a team and 83 00:06:55,560 --> 00:07:00,920 run it yourself. But I do think the discussion is important, and like 84 00:07:00,959 --> 00:07:05,279 you said, the current model is likely unsustainable, and we're going to talk 85 00:07:05,319 --> 00:07:09,360 about that further. Joshua, I'm not entirely sure. Now. I don't 86 00:07:09,399 --> 00:07:11,240 know that I should read this last part because there has nothing to do with 87 00:07:11,279 --> 00:07:13,720 the show, but I'm going to do it anyway. Okay, here we 88 00:07:13,759 --> 00:07:16,560 go. PS. I hate to say this for Richard, who's actually wrong 89 00:07:16,639 --> 00:07:21,600 here. Possibly for the first time ever, VHS was technically a superior format, 90 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:26,120 just beta a lot for faster speeds so people were carrying fast speed on 91 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,240 Beta who use the tape in half an hour, versus a slower speed on 92 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:31,000 the VHS that would last for hours when you can pay the same amount of 93 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:35,079 tape used per secon with uni formats, VHS looked better. Yeah, so, 94 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:39,759 well, the popularity doesn't necessarily mean it's the better format. Well, 95 00:07:39,759 --> 00:07:43,000 it's also that Joshua is completely wrong, like, not even close to correct. 96 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,839 He's reversed a bunch of the facts. That the Beta Max format was 97 00:07:46,879 --> 00:07:50,680 physically smaller in the VHS format, it was more portable. The original versions 98 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,519 of Beta Max, which came out a couple of years before VHS, had 99 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:58,759 more length than VHS. You're remembering the later versions of VHS when they met 100 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,600 a tape thinner and things got longer and they slowed down the speeds. Beta 101 00:08:01,639 --> 00:08:07,079 Max was higher resolution, it was faster to seek on. It was better 102 00:08:07,079 --> 00:08:11,879 in every expect except one thing. Only Sony was allowed to make them. 103 00:08:11,959 --> 00:08:18,040 Sony refused to allow other companies to manufacture Beta Max players, and so they 104 00:08:18,199 --> 00:08:24,160 failed the inferior format and essentially every respect VHS, because it was open, 105 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:28,720 multiple manufacturers made it and so became the most popular one in the network effect 106 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,799 took a hold. There were more players, so more movies were released on 107 00:08:31,799 --> 00:08:37,039 it, and so it dominated. But you're not going to argue technical merit 108 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,279 of VHS over Beta, and be right if you think VHS was a superior 109 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:46,120 technology, it wasn't. It was the winner, and Sony learned once again 110 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:50,840 because they continue to do this. If you don't open up a product line 111 00:08:50,879 --> 00:08:54,679 like that to other vendors, you're going to lose. That being said Joshua, 112 00:08:56,039 --> 00:08:58,840 I think you may already have a music to Code buy. I'd happily 113 00:08:58,799 --> 00:09:03,159 send you another one, because you know you need to when you're that wrong. 114 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,600 Yeah, but contact me at Richard at pwop dot com and we'll figure 115 00:09:07,639 --> 00:09:09,080 it out. Thanks so much. And if you'd like a copy of music 116 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,679 code By, write a comment on the website at dot at rocks dot com 117 00:09:11,799 --> 00:09:15,679 or on the facebooks. We publish every show there and if I read it 118 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,159 on the show, we'll send you copy of music go By. And you 119 00:09:18,159 --> 00:09:20,799 know you can follow us on Twitter. But the real fund is happening over 120 00:09:20,919 --> 00:09:24,279 on Mastodon. I'm at Carl Franklin at tech Hub dot social and now I'm 121 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:28,320 rich Campbell at Mastodon dot social. Send us a two. We like him. 122 00:09:28,399 --> 00:09:31,799 By the way, I just got my blue Sky account too, because 123 00:09:31,799 --> 00:09:35,000 if I don't have enough social media accounts, what's blue Sky just another one? 124 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:39,879 Really, it's another Twitter alternative. Okay, as soon as I get 125 00:09:39,919 --> 00:09:41,000 an invite, all send you one, then we can have even more, 126 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:46,360 because you know, you can't have enough bay at least barely functional social media. 127 00:09:46,399 --> 00:09:50,320 And if you say so, all right, Well, before we leave 128 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:54,559 the whole VHS beta thing, do you remember the format that was competing with 129 00:09:54,679 --> 00:10:01,480 Blu Ray was hd DV HDDVD. That's right, So before I knew that 130 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:05,960 that Blu Ray was going to be the and it was probably like the week 131 00:10:05,039 --> 00:10:11,759 before, I ordered an HDDVD player right right, and and it sat in 132 00:10:11,799 --> 00:10:18,240 the box because Blu Ray one, and it was completely unusable, and so 133 00:10:18,399 --> 00:10:22,000 I kept it in storage and kept in storage. And finally we're cleaning out 134 00:10:22,039 --> 00:10:26,000 the garage and my wife goose, what is this and can we sell that? 135 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:28,919 And I'm like, no, we cannot sell that. Nobody will buy 136 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:33,840 it. Nobody wants that. It's going in the garbage. Not a thing. 137 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:37,320 Yeah, Unfortunately, I think I had an HDDVD player. I think 138 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:41,440 it was in the old Xbox. Actually, huh, that's the only one 139 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:45,919 we had, and then of course the new ones had Blu Ray. And 140 00:10:46,039 --> 00:10:50,440 who uses spinning media at all anymore? Yeah? I really don't. Yeah, 141 00:10:50,759 --> 00:10:54,600 other than other than those really large hard drives in your mass storage device. 142 00:10:54,759 --> 00:10:56,519 Yeah, it's about it for spinning media of any thirty two terabytes. 143 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:03,519 Okay, let's bring back Sean Walker to the program. Sean is the original 144 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:07,080 creator of Octane and before that, dot Net Nuke Yay. Both of those 145 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:11,320 are web application frameworks that have earned the recognition of being amongst the most pioneering 146 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:16,919 and widely adopted open source projects native to the Microsoft platform. He has over 147 00:11:18,039 --> 00:11:22,360 thirty years of professional experience in architecting and implementing enterprise software solutions for private and 148 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:28,679 public organizations and based on significant community contributions, He's been recognized as a Microsoft 149 00:11:28,879 --> 00:11:35,639 MVP for over fourteen years and was recognized in twenty eleven as a Leading Entrepreneur 150 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:41,480 and the BIV forty under forty Business Awards, and is currently the chair of 151 00:11:41,519 --> 00:11:46,159 the Project committee for the dot Net Foundation. Wow by busy Man. Every 152 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:50,200 time I'm on the show, I think I better reduced my bio. That's 153 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:54,559 too long winded, but I always forget to do that, so I replaced 154 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:58,639 it. I'd replaced the longer one with this one. Actually this is the 155 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,120 short one. Yeah, oh boy, I mean, how many more stories 156 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:05,639 could I tell about you, Sean? Like we've known each other a really 157 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,399 long time? Yeah, yeah, going back to the eclipse days. Hey, 158 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:13,600 can we take like a minute and talk a bit about the dot Net 159 00:12:13,639 --> 00:12:16,919 Foundation, Like, how are things going? Yeah? Yeah, I've been 160 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:22,879 on the Foundation as a volunteer for a long time, since twenty fourteen. 161 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:28,399 In fact, lately have been focused on the Project Committee. I'm glad a 162 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:33,879 lot. We're coming up to another election actually for the Board of Directors, 163 00:12:33,879 --> 00:12:37,679 so there's going to be I think I have voted excellent. Yeah. I 164 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:41,039 think there's three seats that have opened up, so there'll be three new members 165 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:48,200 joining and three existing members rolling off the current board. At least the members 166 00:12:48,279 --> 00:12:52,320 that have been interacting with regularly are very invested in trying to move the needle 167 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:58,600 forward when it comes to the foundation initiatives, and also the professional services company 168 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:03,200 that we're working with, Virtual Inc, Is also helping us get organized better, 169 00:13:03,759 --> 00:13:07,639 trying to hone in on what the value proposition is better or trying to 170 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:11,759 identify the benefits. So a lot of progress is being made behind the scenes 171 00:13:11,799 --> 00:13:16,639 that isn't exactly visible yet, but I'm excited about where it's going. It 172 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:22,440 seems to me that Microsoft has been a lot more hands off on the dot 173 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:26,279 Net Foundation these days since the departure of the last executive director, and it's 174 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:31,279 just not really been replaced, And I kind of see that as a good 175 00:13:31,279 --> 00:13:33,399 thing, but I don't know that everybody sees it that way. Yeah, 176 00:13:33,399 --> 00:13:37,559 that was a big change. Up until last fall, the executive director had 177 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:43,200 always been a Microsoft employee and that wasn't part of the by laws or anything 178 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:48,759 that was a requirement. It was more that Microsoft was willing to provide a 179 00:13:48,799 --> 00:13:54,159 resource to the foundation to fill that role. And usually that person was sort 180 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:58,360 of doing two roles, right they were doing work for Microsoft still and working 181 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:07,039 on the foundation. But after Claire Nevotney left there was actually a professional firm 182 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:11,679 that was hired to help with or like managing the foundation, and since then 183 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:15,279 there's been a couple of folks from that firm that have filled the role of 184 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,559 executive director. And it does it definitely right. It feels more objective, 185 00:14:18,639 --> 00:14:22,200 more impartial a little and you're right, a little bit more arms length from 186 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:26,279 Microsoft. Yeah, well, I mean I want dot net to be bigger 187 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:31,399 than Microsoft. Really, you know, that's my thinking when I when I 188 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:33,759 think about what the potential of the foundation is, it's like, hey, 189 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:35,039 look, dot net can live in a lot of places, does live in 190 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:39,200 a lot of places, and it doesn't have to all be driven by Microsoft. 191 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:41,840 If there's any possibility this is going to come true, it's going to 192 00:14:41,919 --> 00:14:46,240 come from the Foundation. Yeah. Yeah. And of course with any foundation, 193 00:14:46,279 --> 00:14:50,759 the challenge is most of the resources, if not all, are volunteer, 194 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:54,879 and so it's just it's hard to get consensus in a sort of a 195 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,279 volunteer structure and to make significant progress. A lot of folks are putting in 196 00:14:58,279 --> 00:15:01,240 a lot of effort. Yeah, So I hope that, you know, 197 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:05,639 people will start to see the results soon. Well, I'm glad you're involved 198 00:15:05,679 --> 00:15:09,000 in the project side. Any particular projects you want to call out before we 199 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:13,919 move on. One thing I guess I would like to mention is that it's 200 00:15:13,919 --> 00:15:18,639 been a little bit slow in terms of new projects making applications to become members 201 00:15:18,679 --> 00:15:22,320 of the Foundation. That's been the case for probably the last six months. 202 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,279 Prior to that, there was always a regular flow of new project applications. 203 00:15:28,519 --> 00:15:31,600 I think there's more than one hundred projects that are part of the Foundation at 204 00:15:31,639 --> 00:15:37,279 this point, and that includes Microsoft projects as well as community projects. But 205 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,960 if there's any projects that are, you know, dot net based, that 206 00:15:41,039 --> 00:15:46,399 are looking to become members of the Foundation, they should definitely consider submitting the 207 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:52,639 application and going through the process. Awesome. I'm looking at the website dot 208 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:56,360 Net Foundation Project Trends, which has some nice graphs and stuff, and apparently 209 00:15:56,399 --> 00:16:00,840 that was written with Octane who knew. Yes, yeah, should think have 210 00:16:00,879 --> 00:16:04,120 happened? How good that have happened? Yes, I know, Yeah, 211 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,440 we needed a way to track like which projects were the most active, and 212 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:12,200 in fact you weren't at the next Pauli's on that, yeah as well. 213 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,600 A lot of great work going on in Polly. Yeah, amazing stuff happening 214 00:16:15,639 --> 00:16:22,639 now that the dot net team got involved, and really um is making a 215 00:16:22,679 --> 00:16:26,960 new version that's kind of completely blow away the old stuff and be completely backward 216 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,039 compatible. We talked about that before. I think I think we're getting Joel 217 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,279 on the show at some point. Richard too. Yeah, they wanted to 218 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:37,440 wait a little bit till the new bits were closer to ready before we record, 219 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,399 but yeah, it's on the radar. I think it's will be involved 220 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:45,480 as well. Yes, yes, so speaking of Voctane, because we were 221 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,360 Yeah, let's you. You talked about it a little bit on the last 222 00:16:48,399 --> 00:16:52,759 show here in twenty nineteen that you did that you were working on this thing. 223 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:57,960 But I guess now it's there, it's done, growed up, it's 224 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:06,200 all ye nineteen. At early stage, it was just getting started. At 225 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:10,160 that point, I think I had just released the first version as an open 226 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,079 source project on the hub. Well what is it? Let's start at the 227 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:18,240 top. Okay, So I mean I've kind of changed the messaging around it 228 00:17:18,279 --> 00:17:22,079 a little bit over time. It's one of those things where I wanted to 229 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:26,559 position it as a web application framework focused on developers, and I really was 230 00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:30,519 trying to avoid the term CMS because there's a lot of CMSs and I felt 231 00:17:30,559 --> 00:17:34,759 like there's no need for another CMS. However, the more I talked to 232 00:17:34,799 --> 00:17:40,000 developers, they tell me Octane is a CMS. So I'm like, if 233 00:17:40,079 --> 00:17:41,759 it walks like a duck quacks like a duck, I guess it is a 234 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,200 duck like in some respects and some stop resisting it, and so now I've 235 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:49,680 been referring to it as a CMS and application framework. And obviously it's built 236 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,839 on Blazer. Started with the very early previews of Blazer and has grown up 237 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:59,400 since then with every successive version. And we'll be having a like a dot 238 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,640 in at seven version coming out later this month. So it's a it's a 239 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:08,160 it's a Blazer thing though right in particularly so it fully like so it's a 240 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:15,519 headless model where it's got the full back end API to manage users and sites 241 00:18:15,559 --> 00:18:18,720 and all of the standard sort of entities you would expect in a in a 242 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,920 common sort of web application, but the front end is all Blazer um. 243 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:26,640 Yeah, so it took it. It's taking advantage of the Blazer component model 244 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:32,440 to build a very composable UI, which is wonderful. By the way. 245 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:36,480 I know you're a big fan of the best thing that's happened web development since 246 00:18:36,519 --> 00:18:40,559 I can remember. Yeah, I was never a big fan of javascripts. 247 00:18:40,599 --> 00:18:42,960 So the fact that you can kind of put that to the background and you 248 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:48,400 can really be productive in writing like front end c sharp UI is amazing. 249 00:18:48,559 --> 00:18:52,240 Yep, great, Yeah, for the way you want to work, right, 250 00:18:52,279 --> 00:18:55,920 I mean, that's the whole thing. This will this will work with 251 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,720 you. I do I know why you want to avoid CMS. I mean, 252 00:18:59,759 --> 00:19:02,759 it is an overblown term, and it's one of those great things where 253 00:19:02,759 --> 00:19:04,480 if it's simple enough to be easy to use, and it's not powerful enough, 254 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,920 and if it's sophisticated enough to do all the things you want, then 255 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,519 it's too bloody complicated. But I do think you hit this point of it's 256 00:19:11,559 --> 00:19:17,240 a dev tool, it's a framework, but writing your own how do I 257 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:22,799 let non dev's add content code is just not smart. That's a solved problem. 258 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,000 So to me, the CMS part of Octane is the and when the 259 00:19:26,079 --> 00:19:30,200 user wants to add content, here's your mechanism ready to go. Right. 260 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:36,440 So do people drop parallels between this and dot neet nuke old dot neet nuke 261 00:19:36,559 --> 00:19:40,200 users? Do they like this? Is this like their new version? So 262 00:19:41,279 --> 00:19:47,359 it's a good question because early on I wanted to make it clear that this 263 00:19:47,519 --> 00:19:52,480 was quite differentiated right from dot net nuke, because obviously I created dot neet 264 00:19:52,559 --> 00:19:56,000 nuke way back and web forms days whatever it was two thousand and three. 265 00:19:56,359 --> 00:20:00,599 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the reality is, I guess a lot 266 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:10,440 of the concepts for developing components and how users would interact with the application. 267 00:20:10,559 --> 00:20:15,240 Those are all very similar to the way that dot neet Nuke worked, and 268 00:20:15,319 --> 00:20:21,079 even the underlying data model is very similar to the dotet new data model, 269 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:26,599 at least the core data model. So it's really the implementation which is completely 270 00:20:26,599 --> 00:20:30,960 different, right, like built from the ground up using all the latest technology 271 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:36,680 dotnet core Blaser. So it really has no resemblance at all to the way 272 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:41,480 that dotnet nuke was was built. Yeah, but from a usability standpoint though, 273 00:20:41,559 --> 00:20:45,160 from is it it does fill a similar need? It does. Yeah, 274 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:48,720 it's very similar because it has a lot of the same concepts, like 275 00:20:48,079 --> 00:20:52,440 multi tendency, meaning you can have multiple sites that are hosted out of the 276 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:56,960 same installation. Each site has its own set of users and roles and content 277 00:20:57,079 --> 00:21:02,480 and things that you can manage. So a lot of that existed in dott 278 00:21:02,519 --> 00:21:04,160 who as well. So you just said the magic word roles, And I 279 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:08,640 know that role based authorization has kind of fallen out of favor in the last 280 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:14,160 few years, I guess, And you know now it's all about claims and 281 00:21:15,039 --> 00:21:18,519 all this stuff, But what are you using for that mechanism on the back 282 00:21:18,599 --> 00:21:26,960 end? So I'm using the the dot net identity service like that the library 283 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:32,720 that Microsoft provides for self hosted off scenarios, Yeah, because that was one 284 00:21:32,759 --> 00:21:36,960 thing that I felt was like really lacking in a lot of the templates is 285 00:21:37,079 --> 00:21:40,480 a self hosted model. Like, yes, you can use things like identity 286 00:21:40,519 --> 00:21:45,559 server and third party tools to get remote off working, but a lot of 287 00:21:45,559 --> 00:21:48,319 the time in development scenarios, you just want to self host it off. 288 00:21:48,599 --> 00:21:52,960 I'm actually really happy to see Microsoft's going to deliver something in dot neet aid 289 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:56,440 in this regard. Yeah, me too. But yeah, so it's self 290 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:02,559 host using the standard Microsoft bits there um, and then it also has open 291 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:10,720 id and DC or OIDC like connections, right, so you can have remote 292 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:15,759 authentication yeah sickond logging with Google and Twitter and Facebook and yeah, and I 293 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:22,119 did that using no third party like libraries or extensions because basically Microsoft already provided 294 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:26,160 all the bits that are necessary to interface with those different remote services without using 295 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:30,279 an identity server or open id, dick or any of these other you know, 296 00:22:30,319 --> 00:22:33,920 third party options. Yeah, that's great, it's yeah. It's interesting 297 00:22:34,039 --> 00:22:37,519 how many projects you've been involved in that it basically been open source projects that 298 00:22:37,559 --> 00:22:42,839 had then been gone on to be successful, like and making money, Like, 299 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,440 is octained profitable in any way? How does it sustain itself? Yeah, 300 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:52,400 so that's sort of a good lead into the whole commercialization of open source. 301 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:56,799 But um so, I only recently, within the last month, actually 302 00:22:56,799 --> 00:23:02,200 stepped away from my full time job a bit Cognizant, where I was leading 303 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:08,920 professional services team, and with the intent of going fully um like fully focused 304 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:15,599 on Octane, both developing out the product commercially and offering services around it commercially. 305 00:23:15,559 --> 00:23:19,640 But I'm only doing this because I have confidence that I can succeed based 306 00:23:19,799 --> 00:23:25,119 on the fact that I was able to do this with dot mat Nuke as 307 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,559 well. Yeah, I was thinking, you should have some confidence. You've 308 00:23:27,559 --> 00:23:32,640 got a bunch of decades of succeeding at this stuff. So yeah, yeah, 309 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:34,640 And I also yeah, so I kind of under And this is where 310 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,319 I think a lot of people don't really understand some of the fundamentals of open 311 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:44,039 source UM and these things came up in some of the prior prior shows, 312 00:23:44,039 --> 00:23:47,839 which is why I reached out and said, there's an alternate perspective I think 313 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:52,240 that could be shared about some of the ideas that David Whitney shared in that 314 00:23:52,279 --> 00:23:59,440 session. And so Nevotney as well. Yeah, and they are they are 315 00:23:59,599 --> 00:24:03,359 well okay, So I mean David's whole perspective was that package managers like newged 316 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:10,240 and GitHub could provide probably an ability for maintainers to make money off of their 317 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:15,119 open source projects. Right, It's an interesting idea. Obviously, Carl lapsed 318 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,039 onto that idea really quickly, thought it was a great idea. But then 319 00:24:18,079 --> 00:24:22,559 when Sarah came on the show, she kind of explained that it doesn't really 320 00:24:22,559 --> 00:24:26,160 conform to the ideals of open source. Right, And I would say that 321 00:24:26,279 --> 00:24:32,240 they're both correct, but they're both incorrect at the same time. And I 322 00:24:32,279 --> 00:24:37,799 did a presentation in January at the last dot Net Foundations summit and it was 323 00:24:37,839 --> 00:24:41,359 the title of the presentation was open Source Sustainability, but really what it was 324 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,680 focused on was commercial open source. And I think what you really have to 325 00:24:45,759 --> 00:24:52,400 understand about open source is that is when it comes to licensing. So if 326 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,480 you are the copyright holder of an open source project, then you have the 327 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:03,640 ability to specify whatever license you would like to provide so that users can take 328 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,200 advantage of your IP right. If you choose an open source license, it 329 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,400 offers a lot of freedom and a lot of abilities for people to use it, 330 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,960 but it also restricts your ability to make money directly off of that IP. 331 00:25:17,799 --> 00:25:22,880 However, it's completely possible for you to dual license your IP, so 332 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,799 you can have an open source license and a commercial license, and people can 333 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,599 choose the license that they want. And it's the same way that when you 334 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,319 go to buy a cell phone today or rent a car whatever, right, 335 00:25:33,519 --> 00:25:37,200 you can choose to get the insurance or not get the insurance. Yeah, 336 00:25:37,279 --> 00:25:41,200 right, A lot of people choose to get the insurance because they're worried about 337 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:45,000 mitigating the risk if something goes wrong. Same exact thing with open source, 338 00:25:45,279 --> 00:25:49,279 and don't people actually switch halfway through? It's like, hey, start with 339 00:25:49,319 --> 00:25:53,559 the open source product absolutely to a certain point where you either run into obstacles 340 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,000 or it becomes critical where it's like, how are we going to protect ourselves? 341 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,240 Hey, let's flip to the commercial license comes with the protection. Yeah. 342 00:26:00,279 --> 00:26:04,400 I'm thinking of Identity Server as the sort of the iconic example of that 343 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:11,039 and all the heartache that they went through with their customers. You know about 344 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:15,640 Andy and Microsoft too over that, and I think that that's maybe there's there 345 00:26:15,759 --> 00:26:22,359 really shouldn't be that much resistance to it as long the resistance and I actually 346 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:29,880 faced this at Dot and nukes if you neglect the open source version in favor 347 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,200 of the commercial version, because there's dual licensing where you offer the same exact 348 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:38,359 piece of IP under two different licenses, and then there's things like open coore 349 00:26:38,559 --> 00:26:44,400 where you add extra functionality to the commercial version, which makes it clear that 350 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,480 one version is better than the other. And then you're you know, you're 351 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,920 forcing people to make a decision, and that's where the open source community starts 352 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,160 to get a little bit anxious. Kay Growley, Well, the reason I 353 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,799 was so excited about David Whitney's idea is that it was an option. You 354 00:26:59,839 --> 00:27:03,680 know. It wasn't like, um, you know, you're it wasn't like 355 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,160 you're abandoning one one project for another or one other thing. It's that, 356 00:27:07,839 --> 00:27:12,880 you know, I've I've got these core this core set of features in this 357 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:18,359 thing, and I'm now building a version that I'm going to charge for that 358 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,519 has these features added to it. Right, It's it's an option, and 359 00:27:22,559 --> 00:27:25,839 if you don't want to buy it, you don't have to. But I 360 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:32,519 think that it may not, you know, be open source. Um, 361 00:27:33,319 --> 00:27:34,200 why should I say, yeah, I think you said it best. It's 362 00:27:34,279 --> 00:27:38,240 like, that's not the open source you way to do things right, but 363 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:44,920 be at GitHub or whatever is the perfect place to to to put that hook. 364 00:27:45,839 --> 00:27:48,880 I think, you know, but it's still an option. I saw 365 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,279 no downside in that idea. Yeah, and I think that if you had 366 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,960 even just even if you just took the standard dual license approach, let's say 367 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:02,079 you had. Let let's pick a project like image sharp, that's a popular 368 00:28:02,279 --> 00:28:07,039 image library rate in the dot in an ecosystem. That project could have an 369 00:28:07,079 --> 00:28:11,920 open source license, very pure open source license, and a commercial license and 370 00:28:11,039 --> 00:28:15,720 the commercial and they could offer two packages of it, one under one license, 371 00:28:15,759 --> 00:28:18,799 one under the other, and people could choose to opt for the commercial 372 00:28:18,839 --> 00:28:22,279 license. And they would need a way to pay for it. And that's 373 00:28:22,319 --> 00:28:26,160 why I think what David was suggesting, right, is something like newget or 374 00:28:27,039 --> 00:28:32,319 get hub could facilitate that financial transaction. However, you have to realize then 375 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,759 the maintainer of that open source project is on the hook to provide value, 376 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,519 right, because people aren't paying for the IP, they're paying for the service 377 00:28:38,599 --> 00:28:44,000 they get around the IP. Yeah, yeah, they're not doing they're not 378 00:28:44,039 --> 00:28:45,839 doing it for fun. I also think you're there's different classes of project, 379 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,880 like clearly Octane, while it has a developer component, has a feature set 380 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,839 that some enterprises are going to value. I would argue that's where your differentiation 381 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,000 comes in. Is often with a paid product, you can add features to 382 00:28:59,119 --> 00:29:03,440 have license or requirements on it for from third parties, or have cloud dependencies, 383 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,720 things that would be valuable to an enterprise but cost money and so only 384 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,359 appear in the commercial license. But I also think you have projects that are 385 00:29:11,519 --> 00:29:18,359 pure internal code libraries that largely aren't licensable or make don't make sense in that 386 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,759 space, and that's where maybe some of these other mechanisms would be more credible. 387 00:29:22,799 --> 00:29:26,160 Although that basically I think this was more Sarah's position. It's like, 388 00:29:26,519 --> 00:29:30,319 listen, if you've taken a dependency on a piece of software chip the guy 389 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:36,000 twenty bucks, like, come on, I know, yeah, yeah, 390 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:41,519 especially if it's providing sort of critical functionality. Yeah yeah, because one day 391 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,119 that person has to move on work on other things or job calls, and 392 00:29:45,119 --> 00:29:48,759 there's there's no cycles for it, and you need something and it's not going 393 00:29:48,799 --> 00:29:52,480 to happen. Right. You certainly weren't willing to take on or at least 394 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,559 contribute, Like that's the whole Thing's like a it doesn't have to be money. 395 00:29:55,559 --> 00:29:57,759 It could also be time. Like there are a bunch of ways to 396 00:29:57,759 --> 00:30:02,759 do this. Yeah. One thing that we did here at dot and Nick 397 00:30:02,799 --> 00:30:07,200 when it was just a pure open source project is we would say, like 398 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,400 you could donate. There was there wasn't options for people to donate to the 399 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,519 project, and they would say, well, my company can't really donate, 400 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,359 you know, if you had a commercial license and we'd buy it, because 401 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,440 that's like a traditional sort of procurement purchasing kind of process that companies can do. 402 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:27,759 Donating to things is not. It's kind of like a foreign concept for 403 00:30:27,799 --> 00:30:32,799 a lot of corporate entity. Yeah, I don't know how to put that 404 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:37,079 through my payment chain. Now, that's more of a question of getting up 405 00:30:37,079 --> 00:30:40,119 to the CFO and saying, let's build a mechanism for this, which can 406 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,960 be done. It's just that most people think the CFO, you know, 407 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:48,279 lives on clouds and is unapproachable. Right, there's a palace guard there that 408 00:30:48,279 --> 00:30:52,119 will stab you, and so you know, you just follow the practices or 409 00:30:52,119 --> 00:30:55,640 replace. The idea of creating new business flows is beyond most folks. That's 410 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,440 not what they want to do. And yeah, so I appreciate the idea 411 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,720 of just creating a something that will fit into the existing payment system, makes 412 00:31:03,759 --> 00:31:08,279 life better. It's just easy to do, Sean, when I maybe we 413 00:31:08,279 --> 00:31:11,799 should take a break now, but I have a question for us. Let's 414 00:31:11,799 --> 00:31:14,160 do that. Let's take a break, and we'll be right back with Sean 415 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:22,000 Walker after this very important message, and we're back stottnet Rocks. I'm Carl 416 00:31:22,039 --> 00:31:26,000 Franklin. That's Richard Campbell, hey, and that's Sean Walker. We're talking 417 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,839 about Octane and open source and all that good stuff. I was looking at 418 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:34,640 the website earlier this morning and looking for a documentation that a developer would use, 419 00:31:36,079 --> 00:31:41,039 and I ended up in a repo that wasn't like an MD files or 420 00:31:41,079 --> 00:31:45,000 anything that I could read. It was code, And then it said something 421 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:51,039 about the documentation is generated, and I wondered, if that is generated for 422 00:31:51,519 --> 00:31:55,240 my app that I'm going to build with Octane, or if that's the Octane 423 00:31:55,319 --> 00:31:59,039 docs and how do I actually figure out how to use this thing? Yeah, 424 00:31:59,079 --> 00:32:07,920 so that's a good example of where open source projects often fall short in 425 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:13,640 providing sort of the services around the project that some people are looking for and 426 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:20,680 it's very difficult to encourage people to contribute to documentation. For whatever reason, 427 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,079 I've been on the Octane project. I've been hoping for you know, the 428 00:32:24,119 --> 00:32:28,519 last three or four years, that people could step up and provide assistance in 429 00:32:28,559 --> 00:32:30,319 that area, but nobody does. And it was the same without and new. 430 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,200 So I feel like this is just an area where, you know, 431 00:32:34,319 --> 00:32:37,079 in open source, it attracts more of a developer crowd. They want to 432 00:32:37,079 --> 00:32:40,519 write code, they want to maybe test code, they don't want to write 433 00:32:40,519 --> 00:32:45,200 docs. So this is another reason why I feel like I need to create. 434 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,400 In order to get serious with an open source project, you do need 435 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,160 to provide dedicated, paid resources to do some of this work. Right, 436 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:58,039 I'm going to pay a tech writer to write docs ultimately, and that's just 437 00:32:58,119 --> 00:33:00,160 what's going to be required in order to move the next level or yeah, 438 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,759 or it's just not going to happen. I mean, there's just reality. 439 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:07,319 Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. I mean it's a it's a 440 00:33:07,319 --> 00:33:10,519 it's a limitation. And if you look at a lot of open source projects, 441 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:17,680 yeah, you're going to read I'm finding goods. Yeah yeah. But 442 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:22,680 but and to that point, it's like you often see this absurdity in the 443 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:23,799 open source community. It's like, why would I pay that guy you know, 444 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,000 just going to spend the money. It's like, now the most likely 445 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,359 thing is going to do is go spend it on people that will do stuff 446 00:33:30,559 --> 00:33:34,839 they're not going to do, right, Yeah, yeah, like invested into 447 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,519 their product to make it better for everyone. Yeah yeah. Yeah. This 448 00:33:38,599 --> 00:33:42,720 isn't buy me a cup of coffee kind of thing. Yeah yeah. But 449 00:33:43,039 --> 00:33:45,599 it's the point, like there's a lot They've always got this long list list 450 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,839 of things that need to get done, and you can only do so many 451 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,359 of them, and there's only certain ones that you're good at too, you 452 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:57,000 know, like especially if it's a sole maintainer, like they have a particular 453 00:33:57,039 --> 00:34:01,400 skill set. It's not necessarily comprehensive. Writing Documentation is a separate skill and 454 00:34:01,559 --> 00:34:06,960 almost incompatible in some respects. It's hard to be you know, effective at 455 00:34:07,039 --> 00:34:10,800 running a project and also be effective at that much less you know, training 456 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:15,920 materials and demos and samples, like all of these different skills that come into 457 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:21,320 play. Yeah. I think that was a large topic of my presentation that 458 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:25,760 in January was if you're approaching an open source project, you should be thinking 459 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:30,800 about it as if you were starting a business. Think about all the things 460 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:35,119 that go into starting a business, right if you're not prepared to follow through 461 00:34:35,119 --> 00:34:37,119 on those things, And maybe starting an open source project is also not a 462 00:34:37,119 --> 00:34:43,000 great idea. Yeah, otherwise you're just going to get buried. Yeah, 463 00:34:43,119 --> 00:34:45,800 and they and the open source maintainer again it can do all the thing is 464 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:51,679 just as mythical as the full stack developer, right, like you, nobody's 465 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,280 good at everything. It shouldn't work that way, So what some parts of 466 00:34:55,280 --> 00:35:00,079 it are going to fall down unless you get some help. Yeah. You 467 00:35:00,199 --> 00:35:04,199 run into time constraints as well, which is you can't do it. He 468 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,519 be everywhere, You can't do all things. Yeah. And it's also interesting 469 00:35:07,559 --> 00:35:16,239 because even if you do start attracting a decent group of contributors, like Octane 470 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:21,760 has had more than forty contributors over time. Now, some of them, 471 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,320 you know, just submit you know, a few little poll requests here and 472 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:29,920 there. Others have done more significant work. But in all those cases it's 473 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:35,760 on It's up to the maintainer to really vet all those poll requests right interact 474 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,280 with the community. It actually creates a large amount of management work for the 475 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:45,480 maintainer as you increase the number of contributors, right, because it takes a 476 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,920 long time before a contributor gets to the point where you can trust that they're 477 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:51,800 going to make all the same decisions that you would make as a maintainer. 478 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:53,880 Yeah. Well, and they almost certainly won't, even when even when you 479 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:58,239 do trust them, it's like, I know this person take approaches this differently. 480 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:00,639 Is that going to be a problem here? And odd? Yeah, 481 00:36:00,639 --> 00:36:02,400 And there's a lot of people out there. We're having this question in the 482 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:07,960 dot net Foundation right now. People are becoming members of the Foundation and they're 483 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:09,360 like, we would really like to contribute to the projects. How do we 484 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:14,280 do that? And it's like, well, first of all, it would 485 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:15,679 be great if you actually, if if there's a certain project you want to 486 00:36:15,679 --> 00:36:19,599 contribute to, start using that project, like, become a user of it, 487 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,000 understand how it works, Like don't just show up and say I want 488 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:27,239 to write some code. Yeah, like really understand the use cases that are 489 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,519 involved here, and then you'll start to see whether there are limitations in certain 490 00:36:30,559 --> 00:36:37,559 areas and then and then submit something that's valuable right yeah, so yeah, 491 00:36:37,639 --> 00:36:40,440 well, and getting to that point, it's also a rush when you actually 492 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:45,960 make those contributions successfully, like it won't be confusing once you've done it, 493 00:36:46,599 --> 00:36:50,519 You know, like that that you're because the amount of engagement it takes you 494 00:36:50,519 --> 00:36:52,760 get to that point where that pr makes sense and makes contribution to the code 495 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:58,960 base and so forth. That's the hill you climb to be successful. Did 496 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,840 you write Octane all by yourself? A large portion of the code has been 497 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:07,639 written by me. Yeah, there has been a like I said, a 498 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:12,960 number of other contributors as well that have contributed in more, some of them 499 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,559 over like over time, some of them in bursts, like one of my 500 00:37:16,639 --> 00:37:20,800 colleagues that I worked with on dot net Newke in fact, Charles Nurse, 501 00:37:22,079 --> 00:37:27,559 helped in making it support multiple databases and so he did a bunch of work 502 00:37:27,559 --> 00:37:30,440 for a couple of months to get that to happen. So that was very 503 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,920 appreciated. And there's been other folks who have been more consistent over time. 504 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,320 But yeah, largely I've written a lot of code, and these contributors are 505 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:42,880 like, did they come in needing a feature and so write it themselves? 506 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:47,679 Like shape of the contributors. Yeah, sometimes that's the case. Sometimes you 507 00:37:47,679 --> 00:37:52,800 know they were trying to do something quite unique, and the framework won't have 508 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:57,599 the specific feature they're looking for, so they'll create it themselves. Other times 509 00:37:58,679 --> 00:38:01,159 it'll be more that maybe I've observed that there's, you know, a gap 510 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:05,679 in some area, and I'll ask if somebody's interested in filling that gap, 511 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:10,599 right with a within some some parameters. So yeah, there's there's a few 512 00:38:10,599 --> 00:38:15,039 different ways that people can contribute. So there is a retail version of Octane. 513 00:38:15,679 --> 00:38:20,599 There is not yet that is coming because I only just formed Octane Labs 514 00:38:21,639 --> 00:38:28,119 just within the last month. Now, did you have customers asking you for 515 00:38:28,159 --> 00:38:30,880 a retail version of it? Like? What was the catalyst of this? 516 00:38:30,079 --> 00:38:35,320 Yeah? Yeah, so there were folks reaching out and asking if they could 517 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:40,480 have like support, like a licensed version that it included support and other kind 518 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:46,239 of features like that, or could have assistance with implementations, right, so 519 00:38:47,039 --> 00:38:52,440 system integrator type health as well s side side, the tech support side, 520 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,480 like all valid things. So you and that's melis must have been going on 521 00:38:55,559 --> 00:38:58,960 for quite some time that you finally built at the point where it's like, 522 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,559 I think there's a business here. Yeah. Yeah. And then also I 523 00:39:01,559 --> 00:39:07,159 think and Carl would understand this. Microsoft's really done a great job with this 524 00:39:07,559 --> 00:39:12,679 with Blazer, right. This journey with Blazer has been incredible, and they 525 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,000 keep adding on more capabilities as time goes on, and so Octane has been 526 00:39:16,039 --> 00:39:20,599 able to kind of build on top of that ride the wave sort of speak 527 00:39:20,679 --> 00:39:22,719 right, and it's sort of got to a point now where there's a lot 528 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,480 of there's a lot of interesting value right in this, in this product, 529 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:30,000 and I think it's like the optimal time kind of to you know, create 530 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:36,679 a commercial entity around it. I am have created a I create a lot 531 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:40,639 of repos for Blazer Train and the dot net show just a little projects that 532 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:45,920 I show off. And sometimes I think to myself, should I like put 533 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,599 an MIT license on this, or you know, should I do like it 534 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:54,159 officially? And I just never do And I'm just wondering if that's a that's 535 00:39:54,159 --> 00:39:58,360 a good idea. I mean, I I basically show them off in YouTube 536 00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:00,800 videos and I bring people to that, and I don't really get a lot 537 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:07,760 of people contributing back once in a while, but they essentially sort of public 538 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,320 access then people can average the ideas in the code. Absolutely yeah, I 539 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:14,880 mean I'm doing it for public good, you know, I just want people 540 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,800 to use it and modify it. If they have some modifications, send it 541 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,920 back. And I don't really think anybody's going to say, you know, 542 00:40:22,039 --> 00:40:23,599 steal it and say, hey, look at this great thing. Then I 543 00:40:23,639 --> 00:40:27,639 wrote, you know, I don't care. I don't care about that. 544 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,280 Yeah. I mean, if they're an example and not intended to be a 545 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:34,880 full blown product, right, then I think you're probably taking the right path 546 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:38,840 there and providing the most value you can to developers. Right. They're free 547 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:43,559 to use your ideas however they exactly. Yeah, and if they go to 548 00:40:43,559 --> 00:40:45,599 the trouble of actually turning it into a product, well, fully on them. 549 00:40:45,679 --> 00:40:47,960 That's a lot of work. Yeah, go for it. I'm certainly 550 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:52,239 not going to do that for a living. Yeah, I mean, who 551 00:40:52,239 --> 00:41:00,679 would do that? Sean write software and for a living, and that's crazy 552 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:05,800 talk. It does feel that way sometimes, and I did after I got 553 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:07,679 done with dot at Nuke. I think I did tell myself at one point, 554 00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:13,320 yeah, I'm not doing that again. So. I mean, you 555 00:41:13,559 --> 00:41:19,199 did your blog posts just a few days ago about creating octane labs and yeah 556 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,920 and dead answers and so forth. Have you had much response yet, had 557 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:27,599 the pitchforks come out? No pitchforks at all actually, and that's one thing 558 00:41:27,639 --> 00:41:30,320 that's been interesting. Yeah. So I don't know if it's just the general 559 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:37,119 feeling around open sources starting to shift, right. So, I remember the 560 00:41:37,119 --> 00:41:43,679 commercialization of dotnet Nuke was much more tense, more that there was more resistance 561 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:47,480 in the community. Um this the idea of having a company that was somehow 562 00:41:47,519 --> 00:41:53,800 associated with this open source project was like it really rubbed people the wrong way. 563 00:41:53,840 --> 00:42:00,280 But in this case it's been very fluid. Um. Yeah. I 564 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:04,800 think that people are maybe it's coming to the realization that in order to have 565 00:42:05,159 --> 00:42:09,840 great software, you sometimes need to have a resource model for it, right, 566 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:14,039 so that it can provide the services people need to make a living. 567 00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:21,079 Yeah, like con and it's reasonable to do so. And arguably like Octane's 568 00:42:21,079 --> 00:42:24,519 about to get better because it's got the full attention of Sean Walker, and 569 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:30,159 you're also going to get As people pay for this product, they're going to 570 00:42:30,159 --> 00:42:34,000 put new pressures on you as well, and that will shape the product also, 571 00:42:34,039 --> 00:42:37,880 it'll make the product better. That definitely happened in DNN. So as 572 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:42,000 soon as we had a commercial license, then there were certain types of companies 573 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,159 that maybe had been toying with the idea of using it. But then they 574 00:42:45,199 --> 00:42:50,639 became real users and they they don't want to share their ideas about how to 575 00:42:50,639 --> 00:42:53,199 make the product better in a public form, so they would like to have 576 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:58,000 a private place right to interact with you. And so a lot of great 577 00:42:58,039 --> 00:43:01,159 ideas came through those channels, right yeah, and they were real ideas that 578 00:43:01,199 --> 00:43:06,119 could be put into the field. Like this is no speculation. This is 579 00:43:06,199 --> 00:43:07,840 you know, not just dashing an issue. It's like, Okay, we've 580 00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:12,159 gone this far with your product. Here's the walls we're hitting. How do 581 00:43:12,199 --> 00:43:16,800 we get past these? Exactly? Yeah, just like any commercial software product, 582 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:21,760 right, they get better based on the usage and based on the feedback 583 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,480 that you get from the community. And you don't always get the full feedback 584 00:43:24,519 --> 00:43:28,400 in an open source project. A lot of people are just driving by. 585 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:30,679 They'll use it, they'll run into a wall, and then they won't tell 586 00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:34,840 you that they don't. They just move on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 587 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:39,360 next thing. So yeah, it's interesting. The financial commitment is an 588 00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:45,400 interesting element of engagement. You know. I've certainly run into that on the 589 00:43:45,519 --> 00:43:49,840 ht box side, where giving away the software is as much a problem as 590 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,920 a benefit, because it's hard for people to value free software. Yeah, 591 00:43:54,119 --> 00:43:59,920 it's the same as with your conference activities. To a free conference versus a 592 00:44:00,039 --> 00:44:02,920 paid conference, you get a whole different type of attendee. I get it. 593 00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:07,159 You had fifty percent fall off, right Like, so you know you've 594 00:44:07,199 --> 00:44:10,360 gone and gotten food through sponsorship and then half of it doesn't get eaten when 595 00:44:10,519 --> 00:44:14,000 when things are free, like in some ways, I'm like, at least 596 00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:19,400 charge one hundred bucks enough that people will show up, right just because of 597 00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:23,719 you know that kind of pain. Um, yeah, I'm I'm with you. 598 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:29,039 It's like money is also an expression of intent. It is. It's 599 00:44:29,039 --> 00:44:31,760 like, if you're gonna have a you know, a party, and you 600 00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:35,880 put an event right thing out there something like that, and you want to 601 00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:39,400 charge money, don't say, you know, twenty dollars at the door or 602 00:44:39,519 --> 00:44:44,320 ten dollars at the door, because people will reserve a spot, you'll go 603 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,119 buy all your food and party stuff, and then nobody will show up because 604 00:44:47,199 --> 00:44:52,480 they didn't have any commitment in any skin in the game ticket not enough. 605 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:54,760 Well, sell tickets ahead of time. Just don't say bring the money at 606 00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:59,920 the door, right Yeah. I learned that the hard way too, Yeah 607 00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:02,239 yeah, yeah. And again it's like, how do you get the commitment 608 00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:06,519 from it. The real the real question is how the product ultimately gets shaped 609 00:45:06,559 --> 00:45:09,440 and things have changed, Like I gotta think there's areas of development that you 610 00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:15,320 wouldn't do unless you had the commercial aspects, just because they invariably have an 611 00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:19,440 expense, right, like the old cloud proxy thing. Like and I'm an 612 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:23,519 admirer of the home Assistant open source project and how they transform themselves because it 613 00:45:23,639 --> 00:45:29,719 became apparent they needed a cloud proxy and charging people five bucks a month for 614 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:34,559 the cloud proxy change the whole dynamic. It brought a lot of money to 615 00:45:34,639 --> 00:45:37,079 the equation because it made and it made a huge difference there, Like it 616 00:45:37,119 --> 00:45:40,239 doesn't have to be a complicated thing, but it's also a thing that is 617 00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:46,159 not free because it can't be operated for free, and that sort of just 618 00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:51,440 shapes the equation. Now. It's like your customer relationship changes, the opportunity 619 00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:55,599 space changes, the expectations change, and generally for the better if you're prepared, 620 00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:59,239 Like I have every confidence in you, Sean. We've don't showed it 621 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,239 a long time, You've been down this road before, but I think a 622 00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:06,679 lot of maintainers looking for I really want to do this project as a living 623 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,039 just don't have an idea of what's going to happen to you right when you 624 00:46:09,079 --> 00:46:14,840 turn when you switch commercial, right, yeah, Yeah, And it is 625 00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:22,280 a matter of thinking about creating a real business around it and and what's entailed 626 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:23,280 in doing that. And I guess you're right A lot of a lot of 627 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:27,960 maintainers are just developers who have always just worked for other companies, yeah, 628 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:30,679 and don't have any insight into, you know, the business aspects of that. 629 00:46:31,519 --> 00:46:35,199 Yeah. And I would have to say even when I got like when 630 00:46:35,199 --> 00:46:37,480 I transitioned in Dot and Nuke, I was pretty naive, right too, 631 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:43,840 all that was involved. It was a lot. It was also very early 632 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,320 days, like open source wasn't really a thing in the in the Microsoft community 633 00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:51,199 when you guys were first headed down that like that was part of the problem, 634 00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,760 I thought, and you make mistakes, Yeah, yeah, it was. 635 00:46:58,119 --> 00:47:02,039 It wasn't a friendly environment towards open source at all, definitely from Microsoft, 636 00:47:02,079 --> 00:47:05,440 although there was certain pockets, right, Like there was always the folks 637 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:08,800 like Scott Guthrie, that team that was very pro open source, right, 638 00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:13,039 and so they're the ones who sponsored gotten that knuke great in the early days, 639 00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:19,920 Hanselman and Hack and Connery and like the Ninja Army. Yeah, yeah, 640 00:47:20,079 --> 00:47:23,800 they transformed the company kind of from the inside out, right, Yeah, 641 00:47:24,079 --> 00:47:27,559 some ways. You know, someday I might actually finish the book that 642 00:47:27,599 --> 00:47:30,840 explains a lot of that stuff. It's a very interesting set of forces, 643 00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:35,000 Like Richard, I am to come there and like, babysit you to write 644 00:47:35,039 --> 00:47:37,760 this book. Do I need to bring some whiskey? I think I need 645 00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:45,440 riddle it actually, But you know, there's this great moment and I've never 646 00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:51,119 fully written this part out where leadership has figured out that it's essential, and 647 00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:53,519 there's folks down in the trenches that have figured out that it's essential, but 648 00:47:53,559 --> 00:47:57,800 the folks in the middle still haven't gotten it yet. And there's this sort 649 00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,639 of pressure. How do you push in, Like you don't want to dictate 650 00:48:00,679 --> 00:48:02,639 from on high, You wanted to come from grass roots, but they were 651 00:48:02,679 --> 00:48:06,960 resisting all that time. Like this is this fascinating moment where it's like, 652 00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:09,519 you know, two thirds of you guys are on the same side. You 653 00:48:09,639 --> 00:48:15,599 just don't know. Interesting, but that seemed to happen when Satya kind of 654 00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:21,880 came in right that maybe it was coincidental that had happened at that time, 655 00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:24,880 but that seemed to be there was a big shift that happened. Yeah, 656 00:48:25,159 --> 00:48:29,920 we definitely then the leadership was in that space. And one would argue that 657 00:48:30,199 --> 00:48:35,159 that Bomber realized that he was an obstacle to the new company and so needed 658 00:48:35,199 --> 00:48:37,840 to move on too. But this really comes down to the shift of the 659 00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:42,599 cloud, because the shift of the cloud means I just want workloads and if 660 00:48:42,599 --> 00:48:45,840 some of them are open source whatever, Right, We're not a Windows companymore, 661 00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:49,519 We're a cloud company. And so you know, and you look at 662 00:48:49,519 --> 00:48:52,079 it now, like forty percent of there were cloathes or Linux. Yeah, 663 00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:55,719 because who cares? They make their own flavor or Linux. For crying out 664 00:48:55,719 --> 00:49:00,119 loud, there's like half a diven different flavors of Linus you can download from 665 00:49:00,119 --> 00:49:07,199 the Windows Store. The Windows Store at a different time it is from when 666 00:49:07,199 --> 00:49:09,679 we started. I was actually talking to my brother yesterday because and he worked 667 00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:17,559 with me in DNN Corp. And we got a lot of partnership value from 668 00:49:17,559 --> 00:49:22,159 Microsoft in like the twenty like two thousand and nine through twenty and twelve era 669 00:49:22,559 --> 00:49:28,639 because they were still fixated on competing with Linux and Php and WordPress, you 670 00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:31,000 know, all of those, yes, and they wanted to showcase that there 671 00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:36,039 were options available on Windows, like native options, right. Dot Nuke was 672 00:49:36,039 --> 00:49:40,559 one of those options, and so we got a lot of marketing visibility as 673 00:49:40,559 --> 00:49:44,440 a result of that. Right, But yeah, that is not the world 674 00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:46,239 we're in anymore. No, not at all. Right now, it's embrace 675 00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:51,159 everyone, which is great. Well I'm not saying that's a bad thing. 676 00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,559 And also trying to interoperate too, That's all part of it is like can 677 00:49:54,559 --> 00:49:57,800 we all work and play well with each other? Like in some ways the 678 00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:01,079 operating systems just kind of become irrelevant. I don't care. Just can you 679 00:50:01,159 --> 00:50:05,880 can you consume my Jason feter or not? You know? That's what that's 680 00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:10,440 what as matters. I had the surreal experience of having this conversation with my 681 00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:16,039 wife which culminated in her admitting she didn't know what the operating system was, 682 00:50:17,039 --> 00:50:21,960 you know, and and I think most users don't know Windows. What's Windows? 683 00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:23,960 Kind of a it's a good day, isn't it? Yeah? Because 684 00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:28,199 it is a releavant. Well, what's what's Windows? Windows? You know? 685 00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:30,039 The operating system? What's that? I mean? Is that the my 686 00:50:30,119 --> 00:50:35,159 tabs? Or is it the things on my desktop? Is that Windows? 687 00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:39,840 Yeah? You know, it's hard it's hard to know. Yeah, you 688 00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:44,480 know that desktop Windows. If you weren't around you know, and you didn't 689 00:50:44,519 --> 00:50:50,280 understand what part of the technical terms the hardcore Mac users that's Windows. Yeah, 690 00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:54,679 that's true. I love telling this story when I when I was younger, 691 00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:59,280 um, because I was a PC guy in this Mac guy came up 692 00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:02,519 to me, was learning programming stuff. What what are these things called files? 693 00:51:05,119 --> 00:51:07,920 What's a file? You didn't know because you know his environment was draggy, 694 00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:13,199 droppy and documents and whatever. Well, that's dial the norm. Most 695 00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:15,159 people don't know where they're stuff stored anymore because it just gets stored and they 696 00:51:15,159 --> 00:51:19,159 can find it when they need it. Yeah. The idea that lives on 697 00:51:19,199 --> 00:51:22,920 a Google drive or a one drive or any of those. How many Who 698 00:51:22,159 --> 00:51:28,920 doesn't matter? Who makes good hard disk hierarchies anymore? Right, Yeah, 699 00:51:29,079 --> 00:51:32,960 nobody sort of thing. Yeah, even when I had folders to Google Drive 700 00:51:34,039 --> 00:51:37,679 or something like that, I don't. I don't make folders and subfolders and 701 00:51:37,679 --> 00:51:39,639 stuff. I just make documents because you can just find him by searching. 702 00:51:40,119 --> 00:51:43,840 Yeah, it doesn't matter, It doesn't matter. On the on the topic 703 00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:45,280 of books, So you've been working on a book a long time, Richard. 704 00:51:45,519 --> 00:51:50,800 Yeah, but um, have you noticed that there seems to be a 705 00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:54,679 lot more technical books coming out again? Like it felt like I thought books 706 00:51:54,679 --> 00:51:59,960 were going away, but I keep seeing more and more announcements on things like 707 00:52:00,119 --> 00:52:05,119 LinkedIn about people writing books. I think the publication costs have dropped enough now 708 00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:08,480 that they the then minimum number of sales for it to be worthwhile for the 709 00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:13,519 publisher is small. Well, when you say publisher, are most people self 710 00:52:13,559 --> 00:52:16,159 publishing? Now? Some folks are, But the drive you're seeing right now, 711 00:52:16,199 --> 00:52:21,199 it's like I get a lot of messages from different publishers that now have 712 00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,360 new engines and are keen to find authors of things. Yeah, I mean 713 00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:29,039 I most likely will self published the history of dot net. Yeah, I 714 00:52:29,079 --> 00:52:31,079 hadn't really excited. I think it's become pretty clear that most people just want 715 00:52:31,119 --> 00:52:36,360 the audiobook anyway, I want the coffee table book with the glossy photos and 716 00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:39,639 everything, totally. Yeah, they reaction to Really, nobody's going to read 717 00:52:39,679 --> 00:52:44,159 the physical book. What they want is to spine in their video shop behind 718 00:52:44,199 --> 00:52:47,400 them, right that it says history down, that's what the library. Yeah, 719 00:52:47,599 --> 00:52:50,880 and then it may be on their kindle and it might be you know, 720 00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:52,960 in there and on their phone. Yeah, and that's really what's going 721 00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:57,719 to happen, and that and the director's commentary, I'll tell all the ridiculous 722 00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:05,079 stories of trying to assemble the stupid Yeah. All right, well, where 723 00:53:05,519 --> 00:53:07,159 where are we going next? Here? Sean? What's what's next for you? 724 00:53:09,679 --> 00:53:15,800 Like? So this release for dot at seven obviously coming up this month, 725 00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:20,119 but then moving towards course dotin at eight. There's a lot of changes 726 00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:24,119 coming with Blazer, a lot of interesting possibilities with this new server side rendering 727 00:53:24,159 --> 00:53:28,840 model, right, So I'm trying to wrap my head around that because there's 728 00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:34,760 some things that we did in Octane which are you know, pushing the envelope 729 00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:37,840 a little, Like, for example, we don't use the default Blazer router. 730 00:53:37,119 --> 00:53:42,480 We have our own custom router, and there are you know, certain 731 00:53:42,519 --> 00:53:46,320 dependencies that have kind of emerged over time that are dependent on the default routers. 732 00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:51,159 So we have to figure out how to reconcile those differences to unleash this 733 00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:58,320 new functionality. So how have you found the process of updating Blazer projects or 734 00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:01,800 any project for that matter. M one version of dot net to the next, 735 00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:06,440 and I don't mean dot Net Windows Framework. Um, you know, 736 00:54:06,559 --> 00:54:12,400 done Core from say done or three to five to six to seven? How 737 00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:15,159 many of those have you done? And have you found them as easy as 738 00:54:15,159 --> 00:54:17,199 everybody says they are. Yeah, so I've done all the full sort of 739 00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:21,960 you know, version upgrades, and it's been seamless, to be honest, 740 00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:27,880 like, and that's pretty amazing considering that Octane is a pretty large codebase at 741 00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:31,000 this point. UM. But like, for example, moving from six to 742 00:54:31,079 --> 00:54:36,800 seven was like just changing the references. That's there was not a single breaking 743 00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:40,440 change. Wow, And yeah there was, and I think even from five 744 00:54:40,519 --> 00:54:46,960 to six it was like very minimal animal yeah, yeah, yeah, So 745 00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:52,760 Microsoft's done a very good job at that um And in fact, it's it's 746 00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:57,559 interesting because when I talk to other folks that are in other ecosystems like Angular, 747 00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:04,679 especially Angular, they seem to be really frustrated at the breaking changes that 748 00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:08,679 happened constantly in every release. Right, So this is a real advantage I 749 00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:13,800 think for Blazer, certainly, Angular one to two was the most painful, 750 00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:16,320 I think, wasn't it. I think lately it's been super painful even with 751 00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:22,239 recent versions. Jeez, what are they out at sixteen? Like this should 752 00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:25,199 be smoothed that by now, but I would argue that Blazer being such a 753 00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:30,320 young product, it would be more likely to twitch more. Agreed, But 754 00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:35,639 I think you're also dealing with a very experienced team that does know how to 755 00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:38,320 smooth a lot of this. Yes, I was going to say that, 756 00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:43,079 you know, when Steve Sanderson had that first demo, you look at the 757 00:55:43,119 --> 00:55:45,960 first demo, not a whole lot has changed in the component model since that 758 00:55:46,159 --> 00:55:51,239 very first demo he did at NDC. Granted it was pretty simple, but 759 00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:53,400 I mean, and things have been added to it, but it still kind 760 00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:57,480 of looks the same, and the underlying cobase has been completely changed, but 761 00:55:57,559 --> 00:56:00,039 they have not moved away from the core meta. Yes, I don't know 762 00:56:00,119 --> 00:56:02,960 the Blazer United is even on your radar, you Sean, because it's not 763 00:56:04,119 --> 00:56:07,760 really Yeah no, that's what I was talking to about the servers, Yeah, 764 00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:12,599 because I think they're moving away from that United name. Yeah, it's 765 00:56:12,639 --> 00:56:17,400 like a United concept now it's going to be yeah yeah, yeah, But 766 00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:22,400 yeah, I'm excited about that because like in a in an application like Octane, 767 00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:29,239 there are certainly pages where there is just content that could be rendered and 768 00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:32,760 not necessarily anything that's interacting, and that's a perfect candidate for server side rendering. 769 00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:37,880 Yeah, so yeah, I think it's a good fit. Yeah. 770 00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:39,960 Why I push that stuff to the client, you'll get you'll get good results 771 00:56:40,199 --> 00:56:45,400 without doing that. So just it's just the ability for you as the manager 772 00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:47,880 of that CMS to go through today, how that can be server that's best 773 00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:52,840 client, you know, and so on and yeahs and that should produce better 774 00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:55,280 performance of the application in general because it doesn't have to render things twice. 775 00:56:55,599 --> 00:57:00,840 Yeah. Yeah. And it's to be interesting. Yeah, it's going to 776 00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:05,159 be. It's a good ride. And do you think people are finally gotten 777 00:57:05,199 --> 00:57:08,559 past the idea that this is the next silver Light Yeah? God, thank 778 00:57:08,599 --> 00:57:13,559 god for that. You still every once in a while I still get some 779 00:57:13,639 --> 00:57:17,440 pushback on that and I have to explain it all over again. Yeah, 780 00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:22,199 I mean people are still angry. It's remarkable as long ago as it was, 781 00:57:22,599 --> 00:57:27,119 But that's because Microsoft has a history of always building paths for developers going 782 00:57:27,119 --> 00:57:32,039 forward, and silver LIGHTY is just glaring hole of except there where you did 783 00:57:32,079 --> 00:57:37,920 nothing. You basically abandoned us. We're five or six years into this now, 784 00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:44,440 so it's pretty clear that there's like a roadmap. Yeah, And of 785 00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:47,639 course the difference between the plug in model and web assembly is remarkable. And 786 00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:52,719 you know, the thing is is that maybe the real thing about silver Light 787 00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:57,199 to what would have prevented that was making it in the first place, because 788 00:57:57,239 --> 00:58:00,039 at the time, the plug in model was the only way to do it 789 00:58:00,519 --> 00:58:05,320 in the browser, and it wasn't secure and it wasn't safe. And should 790 00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:07,800 they have known that, you know that, I don't know. Yeah, 791 00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:10,800 they were competing for against flash, right, like that was what they're right, 792 00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:15,920 we're concerned about it, and it got transformed into something more. But 793 00:58:16,039 --> 00:58:19,599 I mean, you know, that's in twenty ten. In April, it 794 00:58:19,719 --> 00:58:24,320 was the way to build enterprise out and by November it was nowhere, basically 795 00:58:24,679 --> 00:58:29,639 disappeared, but not even announce just yeah, there were no sessions at PDC 796 00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:31,960 like that was a thing. But that's also when they were freaking out about 797 00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:35,639 what would become win A, so they were all pretty locked out. I 798 00:58:35,679 --> 00:58:37,159 mean, it was a very bizarre time. I don't expect to be repeated, 799 00:58:37,159 --> 00:58:40,119 No, I don't. I don't see that happening again. But I 800 00:58:40,119 --> 00:58:43,920 mean, look at the differences in Blazer too. Ye open source right, 801 00:58:44,239 --> 00:58:46,760 like Microsoft could walk away from it, but the code ain't going to disappear 802 00:58:47,079 --> 00:58:55,440 and everybody uses everybody embraces web assembly, everybody even Safari. Yeah finally, 803 00:58:55,519 --> 00:58:59,880 but yes, and all of that is true. I still think a lot 804 00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:04,000 out of the folks that came up are coming out of web Forms are enamtor 805 00:59:04,039 --> 00:59:08,559 Blazer because it's the all C sharp experience. Y Yeah. It's surprising how 806 00:59:08,599 --> 00:59:15,360 many web forms applications are still out there yep. And millions don't have I 807 00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:19,000 don't think really a good path forwards. No, I just wonder how many 808 00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:22,480 of them are no longer buildable. Why, like the companies depend on them, 809 00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:24,519 but yeah, the code basis, they don't have a working de environment 810 00:59:24,519 --> 00:59:28,440 for We did a new version of an app for that was a web forms 811 00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:31,440 app for a customer and when you know, I said, so, so 812 00:59:31,599 --> 00:59:36,360 what's your timeline? He's like, well, I'm not so sure this is 813 00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:40,159 gonna make it through the winter. Like you know, it's running with duct 814 00:59:40,199 --> 00:59:45,760 tape and bailing wire crashes often, and you know, we may not see 815 00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:47,639 it towards the end of the couple of months. There's a couple of assists 816 00:59:47,639 --> 00:59:52,000 admins that have written a whole bunch of scripts to keep rebooting things or restarting 817 00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:55,760 repairing stuff and so forth, and they're all tired. Yeah I know, 818 00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:00,519 yeah, I feel sorry for the people and had to deal with that stuff 819 01:00:00,599 --> 01:00:06,519 back then. Now it's a kickwalk compared to that. I still keep running 820 01:00:06,519 --> 01:00:08,840 across dot at nukes sites out in the wild. In fact, like my 821 01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:13,960 local municipality where I live, they have a dotinet nukes site running their public 822 01:00:14,039 --> 01:00:20,119 utilities site still and probably a vintage site like A four like probably yeah, 823 01:00:20,239 --> 01:00:23,039 yeah, so well, any this the thing is you find these little nooks 824 01:00:23,039 --> 01:00:29,000 and crannies of unmaintained software that the company has a dependency on there, you 825 01:00:29,039 --> 01:00:32,320 know, way out of date on versions, probably don't have a working dev 826 01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:35,920 environment, more that they couldn't build it if they even wanted to, much 827 01:00:36,039 --> 01:00:39,119 less that you'd have any chance I'm doing. Do you have an upgrade path 828 01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:45,000 for dot net nuke users to get their content running and octane. Not a 829 01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:49,679 automated one, but I believe there could definitely be one created because, like 830 01:00:49,679 --> 01:00:53,559 I said, the data models are very similar, so the data would move 831 01:00:53,599 --> 01:00:57,920 across. But the apps, like if you have custom modules that you wrote 832 01:00:58,039 --> 01:01:00,480 for of course web forms, they would have to be rewrit shirtleaser components. 833 01:01:01,039 --> 01:01:05,199 No, we do way to do that. Yeah, well, congratulations man, 834 01:01:05,239 --> 01:01:07,719 I mean I'm hoping we'll you'll help me back to talk about how the 835 01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:15,800 commercialization side is going on and the land mines you haven't seen yet. I'd 836 01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:20,159 be happy to be back you two, Sean, take care and thanks for 837 01:01:20,239 --> 01:01:45,280 listening, and we'll see you next time. I'm dot net Rocks. Dot 838 01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:49,679 net Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios, 839 01:01:50,039 --> 01:01:54,320 a full service audio, video and post production facility located physically in New London, 840 01:01:54,360 --> 01:02:00,960 Connecticut, and of course in the cloud online at pwop dot com. 841 01:02:00,239 --> 01:02:04,719 Visit our website at d O T N E t R O c ks dot 842 01:02:04,719 --> 01:02:09,119 com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments, and access to 843 01:02:09,159 --> 01:02:14,840 the full archives going back to show number one, recorded in September two thousand 844 01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:17,320 and two. And make sure you check out our sponsors. They keep us 845 01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:22,760 in business. Now go write some code, see you next time. You 846 01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:23,199 got a Dan