WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.080 --> 00:00:09.880 Welcome to the Rational Egoists. I'm your host, Michael Liebowitz. One of 2 00:00:09.919 --> 00:00:15.679 the main purposes for this show is to promote freedom, to promote capitalism, 3 00:00:15.720 --> 00:00:19.719 and today's guest is here to talk to us all about capitalism, and I 4 00:00:19.760 --> 00:00:24.359 could think of perhaps nobody better to do. So. He's the chairman of 5 00:00:24.399 --> 00:00:28.320 the board at the Iron Ran Institute, where he served as an executive director 6 00:00:28.399 --> 00:00:32.600 from two thousand and twenty seventeen, and he has also written several books, 7 00:00:32.679 --> 00:00:39.000 including Equals Unfair and Free Market Revolution. Uron Brooke, Welcome to the show. 8 00:00:39.840 --> 00:00:44.960 Thanks Michael, Thanks having me on. So there's so many misconceptions out 9 00:00:44.960 --> 00:00:49.600 there about what capitalism is. The first thing I think we should do is 10 00:00:50.159 --> 00:00:56.960 tell me what is capitalism. Well, capitalism is a system of government or 11 00:00:56.960 --> 00:01:02.600 a social system in which individuals have free to live their lives. And what 12 00:01:02.640 --> 00:01:07.319 that means is it's a system of government where the sole purpose of government is 13 00:01:07.359 --> 00:01:12.760 the protection of individual rights, the protection of individuals ability to their lives based 14 00:01:14.079 --> 00:01:17.680 on you know, their own judgment, their own rational mind in pursuit of 15 00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:25.159 their own values. And that requires that the government that all property be privately 16 00:01:25.159 --> 00:01:30.359 owned. That requires that the government, uh not never engage in occasion other 17 00:01:30.519 --> 00:01:37.959 in self defense and defending individuals. Uh. That acquires a complete separation of 18 00:01:38.000 --> 00:01:42.879 state from economics. That requires a pretty radical state of the world, something 19 00:01:42.959 --> 00:01:47.560 we we don't have and probably and really have never seen in the world. 20 00:01:47.599 --> 00:01:55.000 It's a it's a capitalism really is a radical new idea, and but it's 21 00:01:55.079 --> 00:02:00.760 it's it's essence is the sanctity of individual life. It's interesting because it is 22 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:07.319 a new concept. And it's interesting to me because the people who defend capitalism 23 00:02:07.359 --> 00:02:12.759 are often called conservatives, and the people that call themselves conservatives I wouldn't call 24 00:02:12.840 --> 00:02:17.199 defenders of capitalism. And if you're really defending capitalism, you're actually quite radical, 25 00:02:19.719 --> 00:02:23.879 no question. I mean, really, those of us who defend capitalism 26 00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:28.360 are progressive. We believe in progress. In some ways, were liberal because 27 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:36.479 we believe in liberty and were anything but conservative. Indeed, the opponents of 28 00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:40.280 capitalism in the era that was closest what we got closest to capitalism. If 29 00:02:40.280 --> 00:02:46.360 you were the nineteenth century when the world was being freed, was being liberated, 30 00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:53.400 where people getting rich, wealthier, living longer, gaining health. The 31 00:02:53.400 --> 00:02:58.719 biggest opponents of capitalism were the socialists. You'd expect that. And the conservatives, 32 00:02:59.639 --> 00:03:01.960 you know, the conservatives were writing during the nineteenth century, Oh, 33 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:07.120 we got these cities people, and we the cities. We're losing this this 34 00:03:07.319 --> 00:03:13.000 wonderful, traditional, family oriented, little village life where people died when with 35 00:03:13.080 --> 00:03:16.560 thirty uh and and nobody could read, and and and the quality of life 36 00:03:16.560 --> 00:03:20.360 was horrible. But that's what they were. They were painting for it. 37 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:23.479 And they still paint. You know, you have today in America. People 38 00:03:23.479 --> 00:03:28.000 call themselves back porch conservatives or front sports conservatives. You know, they just 39 00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:35.080 want a relaxing, simple, unchallenging life, just sitting on that front porch 40 00:03:35.159 --> 00:03:38.000 and walking in the chair. Who the hell wants to live like that? 41 00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:44.280 Life is too fascinating and interesting and exciting to want such a boring existence. 42 00:03:44.719 --> 00:03:49.639 But the conservatives, you know, they they resist that. They they resist 43 00:03:49.759 --> 00:03:53.800 change. By the name, they're traditionalists. They're conservative. They want to 44 00:03:53.840 --> 00:04:00.759 conserve the past. And uh, the past really is anti capitalist. I 45 00:04:00.919 --> 00:04:04.240 might be that in the sudden period in the twentieth century the past looked relatively 46 00:04:04.280 --> 00:04:12.120 capitalistic, but that couldn't last. And conservatives the more the more time passes, 47 00:04:12.199 --> 00:04:21.040 the more status conservatives become because they're not connected by any philosophical connection really 48 00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:27.759 to liberty and freedom and individual rights. No, it sounds like the description 49 00:04:27.800 --> 00:04:31.000 you gave is what they want is security. And I've said more times than 50 00:04:31.040 --> 00:04:33.519 I could count. You know, I spent twenty five years in prison. 51 00:04:33.560 --> 00:04:39.040 I was relatively secure. I wasn't free. Yeah, give me the risk, 52 00:04:39.439 --> 00:04:43.000 give me freedom with the risk that comes with it any day over prison 53 00:04:43.040 --> 00:04:46.920 and security. It just seems like an absurd No, You're absolutely right. 54 00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:53.959 You're the most secure when when when you know your your choices are taken away 55 00:04:53.959 --> 00:04:58.079 from me. Now, that's not really true, right, because I'm sure 56 00:04:58.199 --> 00:05:01.120 you're that secure in prison. And if you live a good, rational life 57 00:05:01.319 --> 00:05:05.480 in this world and you are free, not like you are here, but 58 00:05:05.560 --> 00:05:11.079 even more free. If you're really free, you're probably the most secure as 59 00:05:11.079 --> 00:05:15.360 well, really right, because you then control your life and you can you 60 00:05:15.399 --> 00:05:18.160 could choose how secure to be. And you know, if you have a 61 00:05:18.160 --> 00:05:21.319 government to protects individual rights, it really does protect you, right, It 62 00:05:21.399 --> 00:05:28.279 protects you from from from the things that you fear most. So there isn't 63 00:05:28.399 --> 00:05:30.120 at the end of the day, we really think long term and deeply, 64 00:05:30.360 --> 00:05:35.199 there isn't a trade off between security and freedom. But in a superficial way, 65 00:05:35.199 --> 00:05:38.920 there is, in a in a shallow way, there is, and 66 00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:44.519 what they really want, what they really want is that shallow sense of security. 67 00:05:44.560 --> 00:05:51.079 But they also they want predictability, They want they want not to be 68 00:05:51.160 --> 00:05:56.319 challenged. They want not to be challenged. They don't want their values challenged. 69 00:05:56.519 --> 00:06:00.319 They don't want their ideas challenged, and they don't want they and they 70 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:02.399 don't want their life those ten But they also don't think very deeply. I 71 00:06:02.399 --> 00:06:08.639 mean, I did a show on what's his name Knowles? I forget his 72 00:06:08.720 --> 00:06:13.079 name? Is his name Matt Knowles? No something Matt anyway, he is 73 00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:18.519 a conservative. On the Daily Wire, he said he wants social conservatism like 74 00:06:19.000 --> 00:06:24.680 they had it in the twelve twenty, Right, that's what he wants, 75 00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:29.040 right, But he wants the Internet, and he wants uh, you know, 76 00:06:29.079 --> 00:06:30.680 his automobile, and he wants electricity and he wants all that, but 77 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:35.199 he wants the social conservative as a twelve twenty where we burnt witches and where 78 00:06:35.399 --> 00:06:39.720 where anybody who was innovative in any kind of way was killed and murdered. 79 00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:44.800 They think they can separate the things out. They think they can they can 80 00:06:44.879 --> 00:06:46.800 keep the stuff they want and discard the stuff they don't want. But it's 81 00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:54.480 all based ultimately on emotions, it's all based on dogma. So yes, 82 00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:59.199 conservatives bottom line is a no friends, particularly mono conservatives, no friends of 83 00:06:59.240 --> 00:07:02.560 capitalism. It's interesting the analogy you just gave, where they want to keep 84 00:07:02.600 --> 00:07:05.480 what they want and get rid of everything else. It reminds me off. 85 00:07:05.480 --> 00:07:09.759 I watched the debate that you had. I think the guy's name was Packman, 86 00:07:09.879 --> 00:07:15.439 but I'm not I'm not positive David pack yet. And he said, 87 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:18.839 don't tell me about how the poorest today are better off than the people were 88 00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:23.560 in the Roman Empire, because today we which is a misnomer, but he 89 00:07:23.560 --> 00:07:26.839 says, we, you know, have far more stuff than they had back 90 00:07:26.839 --> 00:07:29.879 then. And to me, it's like saying, well, basically, what 91 00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:32.360 he wasn't saying is that there's enough now to read distribute to everybody. But 92 00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:36.319 to me, it's as if there's a golden goose and people love the golden 93 00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:40.079 eggs and they say, Okay, we no longer need the goose. Let's 94 00:07:40.120 --> 00:07:42.560 kill it because we don't like it, and we'll just keep the eggs and 95 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:45.120 spread them around. But then you're not going to have any more eggs. 96 00:07:45.399 --> 00:07:49.439 And if you get rid of the capitalist system that produces the wealth so that 97 00:07:49.480 --> 00:07:53.360 you can redistribute it, pretty soon you're not going to have the wealth at 98 00:07:53.360 --> 00:07:57.519 all. Well, they would deny that. They would basically say, and 99 00:07:57.560 --> 00:08:01.199 this is true, right, I think. I think the clever one want 100 00:08:01.240 --> 00:08:07.160 to keep the goose just alive enough so they can lay the eggs and they 101 00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:11.759 can steal it. And of course they realize they might have to give up 102 00:08:11.800 --> 00:08:16.079 a few eggs because under freedom, the goose would lay a lot more eggs, 103 00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:22.560 but so by stealing them, you know, but they still want the 104 00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:26.360 golden goose alive. And that's why somebody like Elizabeth Waughan will say, oh, 105 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:30.279 no, I'm a defender of capitalism. I believe in capitalism. I 106 00:08:30.319 --> 00:08:33.639 just want to control it and regulate it and tax it and manipulate it. 107 00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:39.480 But they realize there's something there. And that's why almost nobody will call themselves 108 00:08:39.519 --> 00:08:41.480 a communist, and nobody, almost nobody will call themselves an out and our 109 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:46.639 socialist. I'll call themselves a democratic socialist. And they'll think that they want 110 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:54.000 Denmark right and and and Denmark taxes people very highly just to keep them alive 111 00:08:54.600 --> 00:08:58.000 just enough. So that they don't leave. They don't, they don't stop 112 00:08:58.080 --> 00:09:01.879 laying the golden egg, some eggs at least, and then they do massively 113 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:05.919 distribution. But Denmark's not all the way socialism. It's not all the way 114 00:09:05.960 --> 00:09:11.639 communism, and they all pretend they don't want that because they realize that they 115 00:09:11.759 --> 00:09:16.519 need the entrepreneurs to keep on producing, and they also think that entrepreneurship would 116 00:09:16.519 --> 00:09:22.120 happen even with just a little bit of freedom. You know, most most 117 00:09:22.120 --> 00:09:26.919 people out there pretty ignorant of history and pretty ignorant of I mean very ignorantive 118 00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:31.799 history, Pretty very ignorant of history, but also ignorant of how other political 119 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:39.399 systems and how other cultures have evolved and produced. So you just mentioned history, 120 00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:43.120 which brings me to my next question. Now, I know pure capitalism 121 00:09:43.159 --> 00:09:48.120 has never existed, but people, in order to survive have always done some 122 00:09:48.200 --> 00:09:54.919 measure of producing and trading. When do we see the emergence of the closest 123 00:09:56.279 --> 00:09:58.919 that we've come to capitalism? And you know where the freest markets were? 124 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:05.200 When and where did that happen? Well, again, I don't think capitalism 125 00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:09.600 is markets, right, Markets are one aspect of capitalism. Capitalism is the 126 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:13.759 protection of individual rights. And you don't really get that. You don't get 127 00:10:13.759 --> 00:10:18.399 it until there's an explicit recognition of rights, that rights exist, that there 128 00:10:18.440 --> 00:10:22.240 is such a thing as rights. And the first recognition of that really comes 129 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:26.159 about probably in the works of John Locke, maybe a little before that, 130 00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:33.080 and some of the thinkers and philosophers coming out of the Netherlands, and and 131 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:35.759 then you know, so then there's a recognition, but it isn't manifest itself 132 00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:41.679 politically. Really, the first manifestation politically of the concept of individual rights is 133 00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:46.120 in the Declaration Independence of the United States. So the closest we've ever come 134 00:10:46.879 --> 00:10:54.759 to capitalism fully, you know, fully implemented, was in the intense of 135 00:10:56.200 --> 00:11:00.440 the founders. Now they didn't live up to that intention. The primary primary 136 00:11:00.440 --> 00:11:03.639 deficit they were slavery. But that was what the documents laid out. They 137 00:11:03.679 --> 00:11:07.480 laid out the principles of capitalism, They laid out a capitalist system. And 138 00:11:07.519 --> 00:11:11.080 then once it gets laid out in the US, you get some of those 139 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:16.559 elements picked up in other places around the primarily in Western Europe, primarily in 140 00:11:16.759 --> 00:11:20.559 England, uh to some extent, in some of the other some extent more 141 00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:24.440 or less in other countries, but really, once you get rid of free 142 00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:28.200 of slavery. In the United States, I'd say, you know, the 143 00:11:28.519 --> 00:11:35.159 most the closest way've come to capitalism is probably post Civil War, you know, 144 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:39.360 pre anti trust laws or pre Woodrow Wilson, somewhere in that period. 145 00:11:39.159 --> 00:11:43.799 And in the twentieth century. The country that comes closest there's probably Hong Kong, 146 00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:50.000 where there is definitely protection of individual rights, protection gets violence and theft, 147 00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:54.960 but also uh, you know, no no government regulations, no government 148 00:11:54.960 --> 00:12:00.360 control of protection of free speech. You can't vote in Hong Kong. But 149 00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:03.639 if all the rights, you know, a whole topic. But if all 150 00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:07.159 the rights, I think voting is probably not at the top of the of 151 00:12:07.240 --> 00:12:11.480 the of the list. It's a derivative rights. It's a derivative that the 152 00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:16.840 primary rights of property and liberty, which is free speech, which includes free 153 00:12:16.840 --> 00:12:22.000 speech, those are the primary rights and those are protected in Hong Kong and 154 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:26.399 protected in the United States during these periods. So that's when we come closest 155 00:12:26.440 --> 00:12:33.639 to it, as as political systems are encompassing, and the consequence and once 156 00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:41.000 you protect people's property rights is markets is now We've always had markets, but 157 00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:46.080 markets have always been constrained and limited, and innovation has been constrained and limited. 158 00:12:46.200 --> 00:12:50.240 Entrepreneurship has been constrained and limited to what's acceptable within a particular society, 159 00:12:50.559 --> 00:12:56.879 to what the authorities allow and permit. Capitalism is a permission less society. 160 00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:01.879 Capitalism you don't have to ask for permission. You do. And you only 161 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:07.879 really get at permissionless society in that sense in the US, post funding in 162 00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:13.799 the UK late eighteenth century, early twentieth century, and then sprinkled Hugh and 163 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:18.639 there throughout you up and then places like Hong Kong. One of the most 164 00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:26.039 powerful illustrations of the wealth producing effect of capitalism I've ever seen. You had 165 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:31.399 in your book Free Market Capitalism, and you had a graph and it showed 166 00:13:31.480 --> 00:13:35.399 GDP growth. I think, you know, the entire history of the world, 167 00:13:35.960 --> 00:13:39.840 you had a flat line basically, and then with the advent of the 168 00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:43.200 free markets, as hampered as they may have been, but they were freer, 169 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:48.519 the GDP growth just skyrockets. I mean, it goes. It's like 170 00:13:48.559 --> 00:13:54.000 the hockey stick that we've heard so much about. It's just an incredible thing. 171 00:13:56.480 --> 00:14:01.039 But beyond the GDP, I mean, what was the effect of these 172 00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:05.279 relatively free markets in terms of poverty, standard of living, life expectancy, 173 00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:11.919 etc. Yeah, I mean the challenge of the GDP is that dramatically underestimates 174 00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:18.240 how big the advance was, because you don't get in GDP as life expectancy, 175 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:20.919 which more than doubles right at the beginning of the industry revolution. Life 176 00:14:20.919 --> 00:14:28.240 expectancy in the most advanced places in the planet is thirty nine and fifty percent 177 00:14:28.279 --> 00:14:33.840 of children die before the age of ten. Women die at childbirth is very, 178 00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:39.360 very prevalent, and suddenly within a hundred years most of them that disappears. 179 00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:41.720 Life expectancies doubled, and then another one hundred years. We now live 180 00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:48.080 into our eighties pretty comfortably and arguably without all the regulations we have today. 181 00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:52.200 I think many people could, most of us could live well into our hundreds 182 00:14:52.960 --> 00:14:58.440 without all the constraints placed upon us. But Daddy doesn't even really capture it. 183 00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:03.519 How much value do you put on running water right on, on facets, 184 00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:09.200 on toilets. Now, the Romans had running water some extent, at 185 00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:13.960 least a wealthy Romans had it, But then running water, pipes and facets 186 00:15:13.960 --> 00:15:18.440 disappeared for a thousand years, more than a thousand, fifteen hundred years so 187 00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:22.080 how much value the fact that you go to tap open and drink the water 188 00:15:22.120 --> 00:15:26.320 out of a tap, wash your hands were soak, have a shower every 189 00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:31.480 day. That's unprecedented human history, the idea of washing yourself. How valuable 190 00:15:33.159 --> 00:15:35.840 is it to have toilets, flushing toilets, I mean, that's huge in 191 00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:39.320 terms of quality of life and stand up living. That's a big step forward. 192 00:15:39.320 --> 00:15:43.960 One hundred years ago. Even a hundred years ago, most Americans didn't 193 00:15:43.960 --> 00:15:46.720 have flushing toilets, right, you still had a pit in the ground, 194 00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:52.080 and with all that that entails, and the smell, everything that that that 195 00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:58.279 entails. And then go on from the electricity. How valuable is electricity? 196 00:15:58.399 --> 00:16:02.879 Now, notice that none of this is captured in the GDP numbers. There's 197 00:16:02.919 --> 00:16:06.759 no measure of water, right in GDP captures how much you spend on your 198 00:16:06.759 --> 00:16:10.759 water bill, but doesn't capture the value to you of water, which is 199 00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:15.720 massive. Same with electricity, same with computers, cameras, iPhones. I 200 00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:19.159 mean GDP captures the fact that you spend a thousand dollars on the iPhone, 201 00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:23.559 but the iPhone in terms of quality of life stand up living is far, 202 00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:27.360 far exceeds one thousand dollars that you spend on it in terms of the values 203 00:16:27.399 --> 00:16:30.559 that it provides to you. That's why you're willing to give one of the 204 00:16:30.600 --> 00:16:33.960 reasons you're willing to give up a thousand dollars. So, if you actually 205 00:16:34.039 --> 00:16:40.879 calculated what some economy is called consumer so plus the actual value to us of 206 00:16:40.919 --> 00:16:47.320 all the stuff that's been created in a semi free society, we are much 207 00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:55.919 wealthier than the GDP graph shows because because of everything that's being produced and all 208 00:16:55.960 --> 00:17:02.559 the value that we capture from that production. And so yeah, it's it's 209 00:17:02.679 --> 00:17:04.960 thousands of times greater in terms of stand up living, quality of life, 210 00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:11.240 in terms of the time we have, I mean simple things that people don't 211 00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:15.200 realize. Right, Nobody went on vacations one hundred years ago, certainly not 212 00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:19.519 one hundred and fifty years ago. There's also things vacation You worked, you 213 00:17:19.559 --> 00:17:22.039 know, and it wasn't even a five day worked day. You worked six 214 00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:26.920 to seven days. You work twelve hour days. We worked so many few 215 00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:32.640 hours. Today we go on vacations, like restaurants. The first restaurants ever 216 00:17:32.839 --> 00:17:37.079 was I think in Paris in seventeen, something that's pretty late. Already in 217 00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:41.599 the beginning of the industry evolution and restaurants don't take off until the twentieth century. 218 00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:47.119 And going out to eat and going out to eat maybe every night or 219 00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:51.440 every week, that's unheard of. I mean, how rich are we unbelievably 220 00:17:51.559 --> 00:17:56.039 rich and having celebrity chefs, so having not just going out to eat, 221 00:17:56.119 --> 00:18:02.680 but eating good food and quality food and delicious food. It's just outstand a 222 00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:07.079 living is so high and there's no way for us to fully I mean for 223 00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:11.279 most people, there's just no way to fully appreciate it unless you really study 224 00:18:11.319 --> 00:18:15.400 history and you think about, you actually internalize thinking about what was life like 225 00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:18.799 without all this. I mean, maybe being in prison gives you a little 226 00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:23.079 bit of a context, right in terms of how great life is when you're 227 00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:27.039 not right, What options you have, what choices you have, what you 228 00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:33.200 can do in your life on a day to day basis, because because you 229 00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:38.039 don't have that in prison. But imagine all of humanity being in prison innocence, 230 00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:44.359 and it's more than that. So two hundred years ago, two hund 231 00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:48.319 fifty years ago, you didn't choose who you married. Your family got together 232 00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:53.799 with another family and they they they made a contract. You didn't choose what 233 00:18:53.839 --> 00:19:00.400 work to go into. Right, you went into the profession that you or 234 00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:04.079 father was in, you joined his guild. That was it. And if 235 00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:07.920 you're a woman, you suddenly didn't choose your profession, you didn't have one. 236 00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:10.839 You were going to be home and that was it. I mean, 237 00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:15.880 it's really really rare in human history that women did more than take care of 238 00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:19.759 men and take care of the household. And one of the great innovations of 239 00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:22.960 the twenty essentially is the women can go out and work and they can make 240 00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:26.640 their own living and have choices and do the stuff that they want to do. 241 00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:34.079 So so you know, in every respect, our lives were constrained and 242 00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:41.880 limited to very very few things that we had control over before the beginnings of 243 00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:45.640 capitalism. And again we don't have an appreciation of that. So how much 244 00:19:45.640 --> 00:19:48.279 does that contribute our stand up living in quality of life? The fact that 245 00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:52.079 you can choose what profession, you can change professions midstream, you can have 246 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:56.720 five professions. Nobody koreas, nobody need limits you or romantic love. How 247 00:19:56.799 --> 00:20:03.039 valuable is romantic love to human see human life? But romantic loves is a 248 00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:06.799 modern concept. It didn't really exist back then because you couldn't do anything with 249 00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:10.759 it, and you could go over value. Have to value, have to 250 00:20:10.839 --> 00:20:15.480 value the human beings have, and see how much better off we are as 251 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:22.160 a consequence of freedom versus before that. To be a conservative is a betrayal 252 00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:26.759 of human life if you want to particularly if you want to conserve things the 253 00:20:26.839 --> 00:20:33.400 way they will before, you know, before seventeen seventy six, or before 254 00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:37.640 whatever date we want to pick. It's just astounding the differences and how much 255 00:20:37.720 --> 00:20:44.160 we take it off for granted. So this define capitalism as the system that 256 00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:49.920 upholds rights. So now that implies the question what is the proper theory of 257 00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:52.599 rights? Because people throw around rights all the time. We have a right 258 00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:56.279 to healthcare, right to housing, or right to this, right to that. 259 00:20:56.759 --> 00:21:00.880 Now, I believe, and I think it's been clearly demonstrated that Iinrand 260 00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:08.680 has A has developed or elucidated a proper theory of rights. Can you tell 261 00:21:08.759 --> 00:21:15.400 us a little about that? Yes, I mean irand Iran defines rights very 262 00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:22.359 clearly and rights, you know, essential concept in her philosophy. Rights a 263 00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:27.640 concept that bridges morality and politics. Rights are fundamentally a moral concept, not 264 00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:32.000 a political one. But they are a bridging concept between morality and politics. 265 00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:36.920 And this is a great innovation. And this is what many of many people 266 00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:41.839 don't really get, particularly the libertarians out there, don't really get, is 267 00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:45.599 that you can't have the concept of individual rights. It doesn't mean anything, 268 00:21:45.640 --> 00:21:48.839 and it doesn't relate to anything. You said. You can't defend it philosophically 269 00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:56.480 unless you have a specific view of morality. And you can't have a specific 270 00:21:56.720 --> 00:22:02.119 morality unless you have a specific view of human nature of epistemology. You need 271 00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:07.880 philosophy, an entire philosophy in order to understand the concept of individual right, 272 00:22:07.960 --> 00:22:11.880 to defend it, and to articulate it, and too, and and and 273 00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:18.000 really to understand it fully. So you know why is this? Well, 274 00:22:18.039 --> 00:22:25.920 individual rights protect the individual's mind in order to his ability to use his mind 275 00:22:25.960 --> 00:22:30.279 in order to live, to live for his own sake, for for for 276 00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:33.039 the sake of the pursuit of his own values, not somebody else's values, 277 00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:37.799 not the government's values, not that the majority's value is not the triubes of 278 00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:42.519 values, but his values. Now that asked, you have to you have 279 00:22:42.559 --> 00:22:48.960 to think about that as being legitimate, right, me using my mind? 280 00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:52.680 Oh wait to say I have a mind. That's cool, My mind's efficacious. 281 00:22:53.640 --> 00:22:56.720 Some philosophers don't think so. Plato didn't think so. He thought I 282 00:22:56.759 --> 00:23:00.519 was just living in a cave and seeing shadows and never really interacted with real 283 00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:04.480 reality. And the Catholic Church certainly doesn't think I should have I have a 284 00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:08.480 mind that I can use in order to discover real facts about the world and 285 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:11.440 guide my life based on it. No, I have to read ancient books 286 00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:15.440 and listen to profits and do what the pope tells me. That's that's that's 287 00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:21.359 what I have a mind for, is to listen and obey. So the 288 00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:26.200 very fact that we are rational animal, the very fact that reason is efficacious 289 00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:33.440 a deeply metaphysical and epistemological statements. Did you have to be able to defend 290 00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:37.440 You don't have to defend rights because if you don't have a mind, if 291 00:23:37.559 --> 00:23:41.160 by nature you're just an obeying entity, an entity that's just abs Oh, 292 00:23:41.720 --> 00:23:47.079 some would have it, you're just a feeling entity, and all that matters 293 00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:48.960 is how you feel, and you can do whatever the hell you want, 294 00:23:49.480 --> 00:23:55.920 just guided by feelings. Then you know, it's not clear you should have 295 00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:57.839 rights. It's not clear that we want to trust your judgment or you should 296 00:23:57.880 --> 00:24:00.599 trust your judgment, right, you have to have a clear of you. 297 00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:07.759 The judgment matters. So rights are the thing that in a social contact facilitate 298 00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:11.880 you using your mind. But the fact that your mind is efficacious has to 299 00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:18.720 be established philosophically, in reality and philosophically, And then use your mind for 300 00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:25.720 what? Because it's your mind? That already sounds a little selfish? Because 301 00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:27.680 your mind? Why not their minds? Why not somebody else's mind? Why 302 00:24:27.880 --> 00:24:33.079 are you just listening to you? And then in pursuit of whose values? 303 00:24:33.160 --> 00:24:37.559 Your values? Well, that's suddenly selfish. Wait a minute, is self 304 00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:41.440 interest okay? Is it okay to pursue your own values? Is it okay 305 00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:45.200 to guide your life by your own mind? Well, but that's ethics, 306 00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:48.680 right, that's a whole theory of ethics. If you're an altruist and you 307 00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:52.920 believe that the purpose of life is other people's well being, well, then 308 00:24:53.799 --> 00:24:57.240 why would I pursue my values? Shouldn't I be listening to other people in 309 00:24:57.279 --> 00:25:00.680 pursuing their vues? They need rights in order to do that. Maybe the 310 00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:06.200 government is the best instrument to convey to me what other people need so that 311 00:25:06.279 --> 00:25:10.880 I can sacrifice for them. Maybe maybe the group can do that somehow for 312 00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:15.720 me. Maybe there's a short cut. If you believe that the proletarian or 313 00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:18.720 what's important in life, well the politarian needs tell me what, how? 314 00:25:18.759 --> 00:25:23.119 Why what can I sacrifice? Just show point to me what the sacrifice is, 315 00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:30.000 so you know, Collectivism, altruism, various forms of unreasoned from faith, 316 00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:37.279 emotionalism, all of them basically undermine rights. There is no rights if 317 00:25:37.319 --> 00:25:41.599 you accept those theories. There is no purpose for rights. Rights unnecessary because 318 00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:45.839 human beings are not the kind of being that even John Locke and if I 319 00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:52.880 my Diane Rand thought they would. So for Rand, rights a recognition that 320 00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:57.920 individual human beings have a moral right to pursue their own happiness, and they 321 00:25:57.960 --> 00:26:03.400 can only do so by using their reason, and that the enemy of reason 322 00:26:04.920 --> 00:26:12.480 is force is couragent. So that when individuals enter into a social environment with 323 00:26:12.680 --> 00:26:17.880 the other people, and we really were born into such an environment, the 324 00:26:18.200 --> 00:26:22.000 concern is what about other people trying to force me, cause me to do 325 00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:26.519 things I don't want, taking my stuff, sticking a gun to my head, 326 00:26:26.519 --> 00:26:33.720 And we need we need an agreement that you can't do that, and 327 00:26:34.119 --> 00:26:40.079 that we need an agreement that recognizes that each one of us must live by 328 00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:42.480 his own judgment in pursuit of his own values. And therefore we can't force 329 00:26:42.759 --> 00:26:47.079 our own values onto somebody else, our own judgment, our own minds onto 330 00:26:47.160 --> 00:26:52.720 somebody else. And you know that agreement. That agreement basically is, we 331 00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:56.200 establish a government in order to do that. We establish a government in order 332 00:26:56.240 --> 00:27:03.160 to basically have the monopoly of the use of force in order to preserve that 333 00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:07.599 liberty, that freedom that we have h And it's it's a unique institution. 334 00:27:07.799 --> 00:27:12.200 It's it's a one of a kind, but it's an institution that that's its 335 00:27:12.200 --> 00:27:19.680 own responsibility. And so you can't have a right to somebody else's stuff because 336 00:27:19.720 --> 00:27:25.039 that legitimizes courage and by it's it's it's very essence. It means that you 337 00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:27.359 can go take that stuff or so, or you can hire somebody to take 338 00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:30.880 that stuff, hire the government to go take your stuff to give it to 339 00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:34.799 you. That can't be right. If writes about your own freedom, your 340 00:27:34.839 --> 00:27:37.720 own liberty, his own freedom, his own liberty, how can I take 341 00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:41.440 his stuff if he's free, if he has liberty, if he has rights. 342 00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:45.160 See, you can never have a right to stuff. I have a 343 00:27:45.240 --> 00:27:48.640 right to healthcare, my right to healthcare means that I have a right to 344 00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:52.799 go out there and choose a doctor, and if he's willing, if I 345 00:27:52.839 --> 00:28:00.359 can negotiate the right fair with him, the right payment, that we can 346 00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:03.680 transact and I can get the treatment that the two of us agree upon. 347 00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:08.920 And the FDA and the I don't know thousand other government regulatory agencies have no 348 00:28:10.039 --> 00:28:14.920 business interfering in the agreement I made with my doctor, my hospital, and 349 00:28:15.640 --> 00:28:18.880 whatever. And that's the sense in which I have by weight to healthcare. 350 00:28:18.119 --> 00:28:23.000 And that's the sense in which socialized medicine and governments evention and healthcare, Medicare 351 00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:29.960 and Medicaid and everything else is an interference and a negation of my right to 352 00:28:30.079 --> 00:28:37.759 healthcare. I love Rand's theory of rights because she ties it to reality. 353 00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:42.759 It goes to morality, and her theory of morality is clearly, in my 354 00:28:42.839 --> 00:28:48.759 view, proven, And a lot of times when political theorists are making their 355 00:28:48.839 --> 00:28:52.359 arguments, they make moral arguments in mid stream. What I mean is they 356 00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:57.400 just assume that their view of morality is correct. There's no justification for it. 357 00:28:57.799 --> 00:29:03.880 I watched this morning. You had a debate at Yale about the fairness 358 00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:10.519 of equality, and your opponent was saying, well, it's you know, 359 00:29:10.720 --> 00:29:12.920 we have moral implications to this, moral implications to that, and people do 360 00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:17.880 that frequently. A few months ago, I interviewed the editor from Mother Jones, 361 00:29:18.599 --> 00:29:22.920 Michael Mechanic, and we were talking about inherited wealth, and finally I 362 00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:25.400 asked him, I said, well, you're you're making a moral argument, 363 00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:27.160 correct, and he said yes. I said, okay, Well please tell 364 00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:33.000 me by what standard of morality you're making this judgment. And he looked at 365 00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:34.960 me like I was crazy, and he said, well, I you know, 366 00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:37.880 that's what I like. And I said, well, if you're gonna 367 00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:41.200 talk about using force, I'm gonna need a hell of a lot more than 368 00:29:41.240 --> 00:29:45.759 Michael Mechanic happens to like something, you know, but a lot of people 369 00:29:45.960 --> 00:29:52.519 do that. So there's been as assume they also assume we all share the 370 00:29:52.599 --> 00:29:56.839 same moral code, because there's only one moral code out there in the world. 371 00:29:56.880 --> 00:30:03.559 It's it's the Mall code kind of instituted by Christianity. It was inst 372 00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:06.720 you before that, because Sheianity really picked it up and made it and that 373 00:30:06.839 --> 00:30:10.400 is the Mall Code of Altruism. And nobody, I mean, there's a 374 00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:12.839 handful of people in all of history. Who've been willing to challenge that? 375 00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:17.759 I don't know. I Rand and Nietzsche to some extent, although he doesn't 376 00:30:17.799 --> 00:30:22.319 propose an alternative, and maybe Spinoza. But other than that, there's just 377 00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:26.720 no nobody has ever said, Wait a minute, why should I sacrifice other 378 00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:30.880 people? Why has the standard society? Why is this standard the collective? 379 00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:36.319 Why has this standard the others? And so everybody assumes that we've all in 380 00:30:36.440 --> 00:30:38.480 on We're all in this scam, we all get it, we all know 381 00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:44.039 understand who morality is. Nobody can challenge it because nobody ever has challenged it. 382 00:30:44.079 --> 00:30:45.599 So who are you to challenge it? That's why I looked at you 383 00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:49.599 funny, because nobody ever questions when I say morality, I know exactly what 384 00:30:49.759 --> 00:30:53.839 meant by that in the world out there. It means, Okay, who 385 00:30:53.920 --> 00:30:57.119 do I sacrifice too? Who's who am I supposed to give up my values 386 00:30:57.240 --> 00:31:03.319 for? That's the whole purpose for them of morality, and ieman just flips 387 00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:10.079 that on them, completely changes the very name, the very weight in which 388 00:31:10.119 --> 00:31:15.839 we think about morality. So there's been other, obviously, advocates for capitalism 389 00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:19.000 other than I Ran. There was Adam Smith and more more modern times, 390 00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:26.759 there was Ludwig von Mesis and Milton Freedman. Why is Rand's advocacy of capitalism 391 00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:33.799 superior to theirs? Well, I mean you have to separate them somewhat. 392 00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:40.799 I mean. Adam Smith is a moral philosopher and an economist who defense capitalism, 393 00:31:40.839 --> 00:31:47.279 but very much defense capitalism from the perspective of its social utility. He's 394 00:31:47.480 --> 00:31:55.720 very he does not want to embrace kind of the egoistic motivation of let's say, 395 00:31:55.720 --> 00:31:59.359 the baker for breaking the bread. Even though he recognizes that ultimately what 396 00:31:59.480 --> 00:32:05.039 motivates an entrepreneur and what motivates a consumer is their own well being, he 397 00:32:05.160 --> 00:32:08.400 does not embrace that morally. He rejects the idea of that being moral. 398 00:32:08.440 --> 00:32:13.960 And he says, look, we know self interest as a vice, but 399 00:32:15.240 --> 00:32:19.359 if you add these vices up, the bakers vice, the consumer's vice, 400 00:32:19.400 --> 00:32:22.160 the entrepreneur's vice in starting their business, and a pursuing their own self interest, 401 00:32:22.759 --> 00:32:30.200 somehow society is better about call it invisible hand. It somehow produces an 402 00:32:30.200 --> 00:32:34.920 outcome that is good for quote society. Well, that is so full of 403 00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:38.000 holes. The status run all over that one, right, I mean, 404 00:32:38.319 --> 00:32:43.880 how can how can how can a bunch of vices producer virtue. If you 405 00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:46.480 add a vices, don't you get a vice? A big advice? And 406 00:32:49.160 --> 00:32:51.559 you know, what is this good for society? How do we measure it? 407 00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:55.640 How can we tell who gets to decide? Okay, maybe some freedom 408 00:32:55.680 --> 00:32:59.960 is good for society? Of it complete freedom? Even Adams Smith after all 409 00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:02.839 wanted there to be a central bank, and what it's certain regulations. We 410 00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:08.400 can't. We can't have complete less I FAI because there's this social utility standard 411 00:33:08.440 --> 00:33:15.119 that can be is completely subjective. There's no objective way to determine what social 412 00:33:15.240 --> 00:33:19.359 utility actually means. We don't walk around with utility functions that I had and 413 00:33:19.400 --> 00:33:22.599 I can say, okay, if I move that, then utility moves that 414 00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:24.759 way, and they can add them all up. It just doesn't exist. 415 00:33:27.519 --> 00:33:35.240 And that's the problem with most defenses of capitalism that are ultimately done by economists. 416 00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:40.920 They're almost always utilitarian, and it they'll almost always requires some hand waving. 417 00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:46.359 Right, it's good for society, everybody's better off, life is better, 418 00:33:46.920 --> 00:33:51.160 you know, stuff like that, And it's true, life is better, 419 00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:57.759 But is it right? Is it good? Is it model? Is 420 00:33:57.799 --> 00:34:02.079 it just right? They can't answer that question. Is it virtuous. They 421 00:34:02.079 --> 00:34:08.239 can't answer that question. And is everybody better well, probably not, maybe 422 00:34:08.920 --> 00:34:12.679 maybe some people are worse off. Right, I like to think that the 423 00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:15.760 wife beating drunk is worse off under capitalism than they are on their welfare state. 424 00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:20.320 Right. Under welfare state, the state keeps them around so they can 425 00:34:20.360 --> 00:34:24.000 beat up their wife. In capitalism, nobody will give them charity, and 426 00:34:24.039 --> 00:34:28.079 they, you know, they either change their ways or they die at the 427 00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:34.840 side of the street. Right, so be it, but so but they 428 00:34:34.840 --> 00:34:37.920 have to insist everybody's better off because they can't make moral judgments right, because 429 00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:40.400 there is no morality they or they don't want to touch morality. Or the 430 00:34:40.440 --> 00:34:45.079 white beating drunk is a victim, really right of his circumstances, we should 431 00:34:45.079 --> 00:34:50.480 really feel sorry for him, So there's no way out for them. And 432 00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:55.599 all the economic arguments, even the best von mess I think has the best 433 00:34:57.039 --> 00:35:05.079 right, ultimately fall in depth ears because people want moral arguments. They want 434 00:35:05.119 --> 00:35:10.719 to know that capitalism is not just good somehow materially, but they want to 435 00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:14.800 know, or they want to have a sense that capitalism is will sure just 436 00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:20.320 and right and as long as their morality is an altruistic morality, morality of 437 00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:25.199 collectivism. It doesn't add up to them, right. Capitalism is about individualism. 438 00:35:25.199 --> 00:35:29.719 Capitalism is about people pursuing their own values, pursuing their own happiness, 439 00:35:29.719 --> 00:35:32.920 pursuing their own values, which means their own business is their own ideas. 440 00:35:35.239 --> 00:35:39.039 Yeah, maybe that's somehow increases GDP, but that sounds really selfish to me. 441 00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:42.719 And I don't trust selfish people, and therefore capitalism is not to be 442 00:35:42.760 --> 00:35:45.400 trusted. And what about the poor? Don't forget what about the poor? 443 00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:51.679 What about them? That's true? So outside of objectivism, who do you 444 00:35:51.760 --> 00:35:55.760 think has made the best pro capitalism argument? I mean, you mentioned von 445 00:35:55.840 --> 00:36:00.239 Mesas in the Economic Realm. I would agree, by the way, but 446 00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:05.639 out but it did von Mesas make the best case outside of objectivism or as 447 00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:08.719 there's somebody else? No, I think I think Mesas makes the best case, 448 00:36:08.760 --> 00:36:13.760 certainly from an economic perspective. But but he has a has a sudden 449 00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:17.599 understanding and respect and value for freedom, for liberty. You know, there 450 00:36:17.639 --> 00:36:25.000 are other thinkers throughout the ages that have contributed to our understanding of capitalism as 451 00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:31.119 a political system and economic system, going back to to John Locke and through 452 00:36:31.119 --> 00:36:36.639 the ages who have emphasized the value of individual rights and then the value of 453 00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:39.199 They didn't have a complete the value of economic liberty. They didn't have a 454 00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:44.800 complete understanding capitalism or complete defense of capitalism. But people like Bust the Yachts 455 00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:50.039 suddenly have done a lot to promote the ideas of liberty and of ideas of 456 00:36:50.119 --> 00:36:54.079 freedom in economic realm but also in the personal realm. But there's there's really 457 00:36:54.280 --> 00:37:01.440 there's very few people today who actually make the argument for capitalism as a whole 458 00:37:01.519 --> 00:37:09.400 system. You know, so many, so many libertarians revert to anarchy in 459 00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:13.960 order to defend markets. They think they have to be anarchists in order to 460 00:37:13.960 --> 00:37:16.719 defend liberty and freedom, and as a consequence, I think they completely undermine 461 00:37:16.760 --> 00:37:22.840 the defense of liberty and freedom. And so many of the defenders of capitalism 462 00:37:22.840 --> 00:37:30.880 defended on kind of subjectivist grounds, not subjectivisms meanses talked about in economic transaction, 463 00:37:30.920 --> 00:37:34.320 but subjectivesm morally, subjectivism, the way we were under live our lives, 464 00:37:34.360 --> 00:37:40.480 subjectivism and political value subjectivism all over the place, and the modest subjectivism. 465 00:37:40.519 --> 00:37:46.159 And then so so I don't think they are very good defenders of capitalism 466 00:37:46.159 --> 00:37:51.159 today. And then you see the conservatives who undermine it or Uniki Hailey, 467 00:37:51.280 --> 00:37:54.199 who's running for president, wrote and up at in the Wall c Journal about, 468 00:37:54.519 --> 00:38:00.840 you know, defending capitalism, but it's filled with uncapitalist kind of things, 469 00:38:00.440 --> 00:38:07.920 and filled with statist statements, and filled with the collectivism that undermines capitalism. 470 00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:12.960 Same things to Hike. Unfortunately, Hike, who everybody thinks is you 471 00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:15.880 know, within the free market world is treated as a god, is very 472 00:38:15.960 --> 00:38:22.679 mixed and nine. Rand was very critical of Hike because of his compromises with 473 00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:30.199 statism and because of the of the you know, the implicit collectivism that some 474 00:38:30.280 --> 00:38:37.800 of his ideas had, in his unwillingness to be you know, consistent and 475 00:38:37.920 --> 00:38:42.000 uncompromising. The same with Milton Friedman. You know, it meanses is the 476 00:38:42.039 --> 00:38:45.159 great virtue of meanses is. He was not. He was consistent, he 477 00:38:45.239 --> 00:38:52.400 was uncompromising, and he wasn't an analochist in spite of people people today using 478 00:38:52.440 --> 00:39:00.239 his name to to to sell anarchist ideas. In my view, people will 479 00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:04.280 tell me that I need to support conservatives because they're the lesser to evil, 480 00:39:04.360 --> 00:39:08.039 but some even go so far as to say that they're pro capitalist. I've 481 00:39:08.039 --> 00:39:12.039 had people tell me, well, Donald Trump is like an iron Rand hero 482 00:39:13.119 --> 00:39:16.719 I mean, that is just so absurd to me. And I actually think 483 00:39:16.760 --> 00:39:23.480 that the Conservatives when it comes to capitalism are worse than liberals for the very 484 00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:29.599 reason that if I'm somebody that's coming up and I don't know anything about politics, 485 00:39:30.440 --> 00:39:34.480 and I'm hearing that Conservatives are the ones for capitalism, then I hear 486 00:39:34.559 --> 00:39:38.840 Donald Trump out there talking about immigration restrictions and trade restrictions and he's gonna, 487 00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:43.119 you know, threaten this company and that company, and we got to keep 488 00:39:43.159 --> 00:39:46.039 the social safety net and all that thing. Then that to me, I 489 00:39:46.039 --> 00:39:52.159 mean, that's just socialism light right in your view? Am I wrong? 490 00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:57.519 Our concert or our conservatives really the bigger threat. I mean, I think 491 00:39:57.519 --> 00:40:00.480 the conservaggest threat. I think they do a small hall right. The left 492 00:40:00.559 --> 00:40:02.960 is the left. We know what they stand fork, we know exactly what 493 00:40:02.960 --> 00:40:07.119 they are. The Conservatives pretend to be pro capitalists. They use the terminology, 494 00:40:07.159 --> 00:40:12.039 they use those names. And if I if I were young today and 495 00:40:12.079 --> 00:40:15.199 hadn't red iron grand and looked at the Conservatives, and they're pro capitalists, 496 00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:21.519 and they will say anti abortion, and they obsessed with you know, homosexuality 497 00:40:21.559 --> 00:40:27.679 and trans issues and and and they're obsessed with all these social things. It 498 00:40:27.760 --> 00:40:31.800 wouldn't be crazy for me to lump that in with capitalism. And then, 499 00:40:31.840 --> 00:40:39.000 of course the capitalism is filled with uh bringing you. Jd. Vance is 500 00:40:39.039 --> 00:40:46.519 now sponsoring a lot of bills with Elizabeth Waughan about penalizing businesses left and right 501 00:40:46.599 --> 00:40:52.639 and encouraging in a sense and coveraging cronyism. And I would say, this 502 00:40:52.679 --> 00:40:55.960 is so, this is capitalism. It's cronyism, and it's regulations, and 503 00:40:57.000 --> 00:41:00.679 it's statism, and it's hatred of the individual in its personal life, hatred 504 00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:05.280 of the individual's decision making their personal life. I hate. I would hate 505 00:41:05.320 --> 00:41:07.960 conservatism, and I would hate capitalism as a consequence, because I would lump 506 00:41:07.960 --> 00:41:12.400 it all together. At least the left says, look, when we hate 507 00:41:12.440 --> 00:41:15.880 capitalism, we think capitalism is wrong. Okay, what do they hate exactly? 508 00:41:15.960 --> 00:41:19.280 Let me study what capitalism is about. Maybe then I'd have a chance 509 00:41:19.320 --> 00:41:23.840 of discovering an alternative. Conservatives money the waters in a way that makes them 510 00:41:23.840 --> 00:41:30.400 more dangerous. And they also have you know, one of their gimmicks is 511 00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:32.280 and one of the things that rallies people around them is they also have very 512 00:41:32.280 --> 00:41:37.320 good at wrapping themselves around the flag and making themselves Americans, even though they 513 00:41:37.320 --> 00:41:42.920 have no concept of what America stands for and what the founders really meant. 514 00:41:43.199 --> 00:41:46.840 They wrap themselves in a flag and again make themselves appealing, I think, 515 00:41:47.400 --> 00:41:53.039 to people who then get bamboozled by the rest of their agenda. So yes, 516 00:41:53.159 --> 00:41:57.360 I think conservatism today is a mess. I don't think it's stands for 517 00:41:57.400 --> 00:42:00.599 anything. I mean, I ran in nineteen when was this video made? 518 00:42:00.639 --> 00:42:06.800 I think maybe seventy seventy one, seventy two, maybe as early sixty eight. 519 00:42:07.400 --> 00:42:10.400 She writes this article conservatism and a bitchery if an idea or does a 520 00:42:10.519 --> 00:42:16.480 video talk on it. Yeah, I mean she thought conservatism was dead then. 521 00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:22.400 And when you look at conservatives today as competitive then like they were unbelievably 522 00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:25.639 sane. Back then they were, you know they were, they were fantastic. 523 00:42:25.679 --> 00:42:29.960 I would take any one of those conservatives over today's conservatives in a heartbeat. 524 00:42:30.760 --> 00:42:32.079 So I don't know what she would think. I mean, I'm there's 525 00:42:32.079 --> 00:42:36.440 a sense in which I'm glad she's not alivee to see how bad the right 526 00:42:36.519 --> 00:42:39.000 has turned out. I think. I mean, people tell me that Iran 527 00:42:39.079 --> 00:42:45.639 would have loved I would have loved Donald Trump. I think she i can't 528 00:42:45.639 --> 00:42:50.000 even imagine the fury she would have had at a Donald Trump like character and 529 00:42:50.199 --> 00:42:54.280 and him given the reverence she had with the President of the United States and 530 00:42:54.519 --> 00:42:59.239 high point she thought that will was the way she would look at a Donald 531 00:42:59.280 --> 00:43:02.320 Trump. I as much as I despise him, and as much as a 532 00:43:02.320 --> 00:43:06.159 lot of people don't like him, I think that's nothing. As much as 533 00:43:06.199 --> 00:43:08.519 I rand would have despised him. I think you're right. I mean, 534 00:43:08.559 --> 00:43:13.320 she didn't vote for Reagan, and when it comes to these ideas, Reagan 535 00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:16.400 is far superior or to Trump. Yes, So, I mean Reagan has 536 00:43:16.400 --> 00:43:22.639 his flaws, particularly religion, but he is better than any Republican you know 537 00:43:23.599 --> 00:43:30.760 in politics today by fall. And yeah, if I didn't vote for Reagan, 538 00:43:30.800 --> 00:43:36.519 there's no way she votes for Donald Trump. No. Well, before 539 00:43:36.519 --> 00:43:38.400 I let you go, I gotta ask you, what are your what are 540 00:43:38.440 --> 00:43:43.400 your thoughts on the future? Are you optimistic? Can we ever get to 541 00:43:43.559 --> 00:43:49.280 a capitalist society, if not an objectivist society? Could we at least establish 542 00:43:49.440 --> 00:43:53.920 some semblance of what this country was intended to be? Well, I don't 543 00:43:53.920 --> 00:43:59.239 think you get one without the other. So I care capitalism without objectivism, 544 00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:05.119 you know, whether it's at least, it's significant influence of objectivism. It's 545 00:44:05.119 --> 00:44:07.559 not the case that everybody has to be an objectivist, but it certainly has 546 00:44:07.599 --> 00:44:13.960 to be the dominant intellectual movement in the culture. It's the only way you're 547 00:44:14.039 --> 00:44:17.559 actually going to get full fledged capitalism. Can we ever have that? Sure, 548 00:44:19.760 --> 00:44:22.719 as long as you're not putting me down on a date next Tuesday at 549 00:44:22.760 --> 00:44:28.719 three o'clock. Three o'clock on Tuesday, I'm look, I'm It depends on 550 00:44:28.760 --> 00:44:31.920 the day you catch me. Generally, I'm pretty pessimistic about the world these 551 00:44:32.039 --> 00:44:37.599 days. I don't see any way anything positive it happens in the next decade 552 00:44:37.639 --> 00:44:42.719 or so. It's just people are so I mean, it seems to me 553 00:44:42.840 --> 00:44:47.639 right now that people are so mindless. People are so unthinking and much more 554 00:44:47.679 --> 00:44:52.000 tribal than they used to be, at least in my lifetime. It seems 555 00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:57.320 like, what peak tribalism right now and peak a mindless listen right now, 556 00:44:57.960 --> 00:45:00.079 and this can end well, I mean, this asked the result in negative 557 00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:05.719 consequences. There's just there's just no way around that. So so I don't 558 00:45:05.719 --> 00:45:09.039 see how the next ten years don't go really badly. But once you go 559 00:45:09.039 --> 00:45:14.000 out twenty years, who knows things can turn around. We know human beings 560 00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:17.760 are capable of thinking. We know human beings are capable of of of doing 561 00:45:17.800 --> 00:45:23.159 good and producing and being responsible. We know all that is possible, and 562 00:45:24.119 --> 00:45:30.679 it is ultimately an issue of free will to get people to reverse and go 563 00:45:30.760 --> 00:45:35.760 in the right direction. So I do think it's it's possible. But it's 564 00:45:35.800 --> 00:45:39.159 a long term project, you know. It's it's twenty years before we see 565 00:45:40.119 --> 00:45:45.960 a improvement, maybe fifty two hundred years before we actually if you see a 566 00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:51.440 full fledged capitalists society. Okay, is there anything I forgot to ask you 567 00:45:52.199 --> 00:45:54.679 or that I didn't let you get in? It's an important topic. I 568 00:45:54.719 --> 00:46:00.000 want to make sure we cover it adequately. Well, I mean, yeah, 569 00:46:00.599 --> 00:46:02.440 there's a million questions. It can be awesome. Okays, so I 570 00:46:02.440 --> 00:46:06.239 I have you know, nothing's gonna pup it in my mind. Now. 571 00:46:06.800 --> 00:46:10.679 I would encourage people to, uh, you know, to go subscribe to 572 00:46:10.679 --> 00:46:15.239 my channel on on YouTube. I guess said you run book show. I 573 00:46:15.239 --> 00:46:21.199 would recommend it as well, and just for the audience to know, I've 574 00:46:21.280 --> 00:46:27.599 recently published my book View from a Cage, My transformation from Convict a Crusader 575 00:46:27.639 --> 00:46:30.159 for Liberty. It's available in ebook In a week or so, it'll be 576 00:46:30.199 --> 00:46:35.079 available in print. I'm going to attach a link so anybody that wants to 577 00:46:35.199 --> 00:46:37.800 can buy it. If you like this show, you'll love the book. 578 00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:40.320 For now, this is The Rational Egalist. I'm Michael Leibowitz, signing out. 579 00:46:40.400 --> 00:46:43.599 Remember like, share, comment, subscribe,