1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:05,679 No one knew that, No one ever freakin knew that there are times when 2 00:00:05,719 --> 00:00:10,279 my life is on the precipice of death, and that these bearers can bite, 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,720 they can kill, and if I am weak, I go down. 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:16,800 I love them with all my heart. I will protect them. I will 5 00:00:16,839 --> 00:00:20,760 die for them, but I will not die at their claws and pause. 6 00:00:37,799 --> 00:00:41,960 Welcome to episode seventy two of Get Out Alive, a bi weekly podcast about 7 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,399 animal attacks, why they happen, and how we can avoid them. I'm 8 00:00:45,439 --> 00:00:48,399 your host, Ashley, and before we get into today's episode, I have 9 00:00:48,439 --> 00:00:53,159 a new patron to shout up. Thank you so much to John for becoming 10 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:57,759 an expert survivalist on our Patreon. Thank you John for all your suggestions for 11 00:00:57,799 --> 00:01:00,799 new episodes so far. And John also told he's a trucker, So thank 12 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:04,040 you John and all the other truckers that listen out there for everything that you 13 00:01:04,079 --> 00:01:07,760 do. You two can join us on Patreon by following the link in the 14 00:01:07,799 --> 00:01:11,400 episode description to get bonus content, including a new bonus episode next week. 15 00:01:11,719 --> 00:01:15,280 And if you're an expert survivalist, you get gifts and the next gift we 16 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,760 sent out with in the next few weeks, So please make sure that I 17 00:01:18,799 --> 00:01:23,760 have your updated address. Today's episode has been really heavily requested, but the 18 00:01:23,799 --> 00:01:26,680 first person a requested that I can remember was another patron of ours, Anton, 19 00:01:26,799 --> 00:01:32,239 So thank you so much Anton for suggesting this. And I will say 20 00:01:32,439 --> 00:01:36,439 this is a very difficult case for me to talk about as a professional biologist, 21 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:40,359 but also as a podcaster, an animal lover, and in general just 22 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:44,280 a person who has opinions. So if you know this case, you may 23 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,719 already have made up your mind about how you feel about what happened or about 24 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:51,599 Timothy himself. But if you have not heard this story, please know it 25 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:56,519 will get graphic, as many of our episodes are, because today I am 26 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:00,640 talking about Timothy Treadwell, also known as the Grizzly Man. Timothy was born 27 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:05,120 on April twenty ninth, nineteen fifty seven, in Long Island, New York. 28 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:07,680 He was one of five kids, and his parents said he was an 29 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:14,280 ordinary young man until he went to college at Bradley University. Timothy got into 30 00:02:14,319 --> 00:02:16,240 college with a diving scholarship, but quickly got wrapped up in the binge, 31 00:02:16,319 --> 00:02:21,280 drinking and doing drug scene, and he lost his scholarship when he injured his 32 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:25,039 back. But he ultimately did finish college. He decided he wanted to become 33 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:29,199 an actor, so he changed his last name, which was originally Dexter, 34 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,080 to Treadwell, which is a family named from his mom's side, and he 35 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:37,599 moved to California and got on the show Love Connection from the nineties. His 36 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:39,719 father claims that what really sent him spiraling was the fact that he'd lost the 37 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:45,039 role of Woody Boyd in the show Cheers to Woody Harrelson. Now that is 38 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:47,319 a claim from Timothy himself, so no one could really back that up, 39 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:53,719 but that is what he said. According to Tim's book, Among Grizzlies Living 40 00:02:53,759 --> 00:02:58,639 with Wild Bears in Alaska in the nineteen eighties, Timothy nearly died from a 41 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,159 heroin overdose. One of his close friends encouraged him to take a trip to 42 00:03:01,199 --> 00:03:06,479 Alaska to get away from everything for a while. And while on his first 43 00:03:06,479 --> 00:03:09,360 trip to Alaska, tim saw a wild brown bear and said that is when 44 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:14,479 he found his calling to protect bears. So let's take a moment to talk 45 00:03:14,479 --> 00:03:20,520 about where Timothy was in Alaska. Timothy spent thirteen years living among bears in 46 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,960 Catmai National Park, and yes, this is the same catm National Park that 47 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:28,960 hosts Fat Bear Week each year, and congrats to the twenty twenty three winner, 48 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:34,080 Bear one thirty eight grazier Now. Katmai was named a National monument in 49 00:03:34,159 --> 00:03:38,759 nineteen eighteen to preserve the area where the greatest volcanic eruption of the twentieth century 50 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:43,479 occurred in nineteen twelve in an area now called the Valley of ten Thousand Spokes. 51 00:03:44,039 --> 00:03:46,879 In the sixties, astronauts actually used this area for trainings because they assumed 52 00:03:46,879 --> 00:03:52,479 it was a good representation of the Moon's landscape. And of course, long 53 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,919 before America claimed it, this area of Alaska was and still is inhabited by 54 00:03:55,960 --> 00:04:00,319 the Aleutic people also known as the Sunpiak people, and they lived there in 55 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:05,479 the area among these bears for over seven thousand years. And we've touched on 56 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:09,719 it before in a previous episode. But the bears in Catmai National Park are 57 00:04:09,759 --> 00:04:15,000 considered brown bears, not grizzlies, and specifically, according to the Alaska Department 58 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,439 of Fishing Game, brown bears live along the coast where there's better access to 59 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,800 salmon, which allows them to grow larger than what we call grizzlies that live 60 00:04:20,879 --> 00:04:26,120 more inland, and brown bears can live in higher densities because there's more food 61 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:30,560 available to them. Besides bears, Katmai is home to wolves, sea otters, 62 00:04:30,759 --> 00:04:35,399 seals, wolverines, many species of whales, and also orcas, puffins, 63 00:04:35,439 --> 00:04:40,519 eagles, and of course sucki salmon to name a few species. But 64 00:04:40,639 --> 00:04:44,519 Katmai is said to have the highest density of brown bears anywhere in the world, 65 00:04:44,879 --> 00:04:49,639 and these bears notoriously tolerant of people due to the abundant resources. Like 66 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:55,759 I said earlier, Timothy spent thirteen years in Catmai, each summer living among 67 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:59,920 these bears. He claimed to be their sole protector and even started a non 68 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,040 profit called Grizzly People, which, according to their Facebook page quote, is 69 00:05:03,079 --> 00:05:08,920 a grassroots organization dedicated to preserving grizzly bears and their habitat through public outreach and 70 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:13,480 education. Grizzly People was co founded by Jewel Palovak, his close friend and 71 00:05:13,519 --> 00:05:16,800 also previous girlfriend. Timothy did outreach on behalf of the bears, and he'd 72 00:05:16,879 --> 00:05:19,920 visit schools to talk to the kids about them, but he never charged a 73 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:24,639 fee because he was doing it for the love of the bears. Tim would 74 00:05:24,639 --> 00:05:28,120 spend his winters in California, working odd jobs, making just enough money to 75 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:31,480 get by and to fund his trips to Alaska for the summer. He would 76 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,920 start the summer off camping in an open area near Hallow Bay that he called 77 00:05:34,959 --> 00:05:39,839 Grizzly Sanctuary. Then in the later parts of the summer he would move thirty 78 00:05:39,879 --> 00:05:43,680 five miles to an area he called the Grizzly Maze, which had very thick 79 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,839 vegetation. But this area had a lot of bear trails, so the quote 80 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:50,240 Mayze was where he saw the most bears, and that's where his friend in 81 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:54,000 pilot, Willie Fulton, would pick him up. At the end of the 82 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:58,480 summer. Tim started bringing a camera in the last five years he visited the 83 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:00,560 park, and he recorded over a hundred ndred hours of footage of the brown 84 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:05,759 bears in Catmai within those years. There's a few documentaries or miniseries out that 85 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,920 include his footage, and I'll link those in the episode description. But the 86 00:06:09,959 --> 00:06:13,759 one I watched in preparation for this episode is Grizzly Man, which you can 87 00:06:13,759 --> 00:06:17,680 watch for free on Amazon, directed by Werner Herzog. I will warn you 88 00:06:18,079 --> 00:06:21,079 do not watch this if you are squeamish, because there are photos of dead, 89 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:26,879 cut open bears that have been knee cropsied, also parts of dead animals, 90 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,120 and the documentary itself can just be like a little uncomfortable at times with 91 00:06:30,199 --> 00:06:34,000 the way that Tim would record himself, so take that with what you will. 92 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,800 He also claimed to always be alone in the wilderness, but there are 93 00:06:38,879 --> 00:06:41,839 multiple occasions where he'd bring women along. In the last few years, he 94 00:06:41,879 --> 00:06:46,839 would sometimes bring his girlfriend, Amy hugen Art, and of the one hundred 95 00:06:46,879 --> 00:06:50,120 hours of footage, Amy was only seen three times, and each time her 96 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:57,759 face was obscured in the footage. It becomes clear how unorthodox Tim's methods were 97 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,240 because he would get within feet of these bears and talk to them as if 98 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:04,360 they were pets, and he named the ones that he would see year after 99 00:07:04,439 --> 00:07:10,800 year that he could recognize. In the first ten minutes of the documentary Grizzly 100 00:07:10,839 --> 00:07:15,519 Man, you see him petting two wild brown bear cubs, then he gets 101 00:07:15,519 --> 00:07:17,959 scratched by a sub adult bear that he named a rowdy, and then he's 102 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,920 filming a ten foot tall male bear at one point that comes within feet of 103 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,279 him because Tim sat in its way as the bear was trying to scratch its 104 00:07:26,319 --> 00:07:29,160 back on a tree and he just told it to leave, and to be 105 00:07:29,199 --> 00:07:32,240 fair, it did. And Tim's videos are a lot of him saying how 106 00:07:32,319 --> 00:07:36,079 dangerous these bears are, but he continually would get so close to them that 107 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:40,839 he could touch them. And this is where the story becomes hard for me 108 00:07:40,879 --> 00:07:44,360 to talk about because although I think Tim's heart was in the right place, 109 00:07:44,879 --> 00:07:47,160 I can't say that getting so close to these bears was a good choice. 110 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,319 And the way that he interacted with the bears was considered harassment. And in 111 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:55,079 any other case of a person getting too close to a bear, Nick and 112 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:59,040 I would call it harassment. And that's what it is, so really, 113 00:07:59,639 --> 00:08:03,040 in the eyes eyes of the park Service and also in my eyes, it 114 00:08:03,079 --> 00:08:07,720 was harassment the way that he was interacting with these bears. For example, 115 00:08:07,959 --> 00:08:11,800 there's one part of the documentary where Tim's recording himself within ten feet of a 116 00:08:11,839 --> 00:08:15,560 female brown bear that he named the grinch because she has quote kind of an 117 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,639 aggressive attitude, which may or may not just be the fact that she is 118 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:22,279 a bear, and she was standing over a carcass that she was eating as 119 00:08:22,319 --> 00:08:26,519 Tim started talking, and as he's talking, she walks closer to him, 120 00:08:26,519 --> 00:08:30,720 so his back is to her. He's facing the camera and she is behind 121 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:35,000 his back. She walks closer to him, eventually getting within like two feet 122 00:08:35,039 --> 00:08:37,480 of him, and he scolds her, telling her to back off, and 123 00:08:37,519 --> 00:08:41,960 after telling her quote, don't you do that, he points his finger at 124 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:46,279 her like he's scolding a dog. Don't do it. It's okay. I 125 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:50,960 love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, 126 00:08:50,639 --> 00:08:54,840 I love you. I'm sorry. All the lovely footage aside, Tim was 127 00:08:54,919 --> 00:08:58,840 constantly breaking park rules with what he was doing. First of all, as 128 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:03,879 we talked about when we talk about Yellowstone Catmai National Park advises people to stay 129 00:09:03,919 --> 00:09:07,240 at least fifty yards or forty six meters from bears at all times. This 130 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:11,440 goes for other predators as well, but we're mostly talking about brown bears here. 131 00:09:11,759 --> 00:09:15,879 But Tim would also stay at his campsite for months at a time, 132 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:20,320 and at CAPMI you cannot camp in one backcountry location for more than fourteen days 133 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:22,759 in order to reduce impact in the land, and if he had wanted to 134 00:09:22,799 --> 00:09:26,519 camp longer than fourteen days, the rule was to move two miles away then 135 00:09:26,519 --> 00:09:30,000 the cycle would start over again, so he'd just have fourteen more days in 136 00:09:30,039 --> 00:09:33,120 that spot and then have to move again, I'm not sure if this was 137 00:09:33,159 --> 00:09:35,399 a rule at the time he was there, but Katmai also requires that all 138 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:41,720 backcountry campers use bear resistant food containers, and often Timothy did not secure any 139 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:46,039 of his food or toiletrees in most of his time there. He also did 140 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:50,960 not use electric fencing around his campsite, which is another backcountry camping recommendation, 141 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:54,960 so not a rule, and they warn against camping near bear trails, but 142 00:09:54,039 --> 00:09:58,519 tim would purposely camp near them so that he could see them most bears. 143 00:09:58,399 --> 00:10:03,000 He only carried and used bear spray once in his entire time going there over 144 00:10:03,039 --> 00:10:07,440 the thirteen years, but in his book he said that he was so grief 145 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,759 stricken after using the bear spray that he wouldn't use it again, so he 146 00:10:11,919 --> 00:10:16,320 never carried any guns nor bear spray. From nineteen ninety four two thousand and 147 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:20,919 three, the National Park Service said he accumulated six violations, which included guiding 148 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,759 tourists without a license, camping in the same area longer than the National Park 149 00:10:24,799 --> 00:10:31,039 Service limit, improper food storage, wildlife harassment, and conflicts with visitors and 150 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:35,039 their guides. Besides the bears, he would regularly interact with the red foxes 151 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:39,120 too, letting them climb over his tent and he'd pet them and let them 152 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:43,519 bite him, which, besides being harassment, is also a big disease risk 153 00:10:43,639 --> 00:10:48,000 because Raybi's still exists up there, so that's obviously always a concern. So 154 00:10:48,799 --> 00:10:52,480 all the bear things aside. Also, please don't interact with foxes this way. 155 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,399 Not a great idea, but at one point Tim got coffee with deb 156 00:10:56,559 --> 00:11:01,039 like It, the superintendent of Katmai National Park, a few years before his 157 00:11:01,159 --> 00:11:03,600 death. She told him she thought that the work he was doing was great 158 00:11:03,639 --> 00:11:07,879 because he was bringing positive attention to the bears, but if he had any 159 00:11:07,919 --> 00:11:11,200 more violations within the park that he would have to be banned for life, 160 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:15,039 and he needed to be more careful before anyone got hurt or in trouble, 161 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:20,679 meaning both humans and bears. As you can imagine, Tim did not have 162 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:24,240 a great relationship with the National Park Service. I came here and protected the 163 00:11:24,279 --> 00:11:28,919 animals as best I could. In fact, I'm the only protection for these 164 00:11:28,919 --> 00:11:31,960 animals out here. The government flying over a grand total of two times in 165 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:37,240 two months. How dare they? How dare they challenge me? How dare 166 00:11:37,279 --> 00:11:41,039 they smeer me when their campaigns? How dare they when they do not look 167 00:11:41,039 --> 00:11:45,320 after these animals, and I come here in peace and in love, neutral 168 00:11:45,639 --> 00:11:50,279 and respect. I will continue to do this. I will fight them. 169 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:54,080 I will be an American dissident if I need be. There's a patriotic time 170 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,919 going on right now. But as far as this fucking government's concerned, Fuck 171 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,399 you, motherfucking park Service. Do you watch any of his footage, It's 172 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,279 clear that although Tim may no longer be an addict, that he definitely was 173 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:09,480 still struggling. And in his book, Tim says that the bears are what 174 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,879 saved him and helped him recover from his addiction to alcohol and drugs. But 175 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,360 he was self isolating in the wilderness except when he brought women along with him, 176 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:20,799 obviously, and he considered the bears and the foxes around him to be 177 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:24,679 legitimately his friends. And in the videos he took, he couldn't seem to 178 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:28,840 come to terms with the death of the animals that he considered friends. Second 179 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:31,919 edition, two thousand and one. It's taken a sad turn, but it 180 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:37,840 is a real turn. And I warned the death of this gorgeous baby fox. 181 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:46,480 Goodbye those fox I'm out of his eye. Freaking fly don't do it 182 00:12:46,519 --> 00:12:52,440 when I'm around I have some respect, fucker. And I'm not saying that 183 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,600 people can't form bonds with wild animals, and I really think that he did 184 00:12:54,639 --> 00:12:58,519 with some of these foxes. But still he claimed he was out there doing 185 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:05,039 research. But the point of research is to be objective, and Tim didn't 186 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:09,240 seem to be able to come to terms emotionally with the reality of nature. 187 00:13:09,519 --> 00:13:13,639 He also often in his videos had erratic mood shifts, as you kind of 188 00:13:13,639 --> 00:13:16,559 heard earlier when he was talking to the Grinch, and then there's some footage 189 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:20,000 he took of himself talking about his struggles with sexuality. And my point here 190 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:26,399 is Tim really invested everything he had into being around these bears and doing what 191 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:31,080 he thought was protecting them, and that was the majority of his efforts was 192 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:37,000 on these bears, not a lot on helping himself, if that makes sense. 193 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:45,120 But the thing is Tim thought that he was the only one protecting these 194 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:50,519 bears. But these brown bears lived in a national park. These ones were 195 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:54,600 protected from hunting and their habitat was also protected. So in my eyes, 196 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:01,360 this is just my opinion, this was an escape for Tim. He was 197 00:14:01,399 --> 00:14:07,159 there under the guise of protecting the bears, but really it was to run 198 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:11,840 away and be around animals, because animals a lot of times can be easier 199 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:15,679 to interact with. Then people totally get that, and that's why a lot 200 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:18,559 of wild life biologists become wildlife biologists. But as you can imagine, a 201 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:24,399 lot of wilde life biology is dealing with people. There was also an instance 202 00:14:24,399 --> 00:14:26,799 in two thousand and one where he recorded some taurusts throwing rocks at a brown 203 00:14:26,799 --> 00:14:30,799 bear to get a good picture of it, which is an absolutely disgusting thing 204 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,519 to do. So basically they were trying to get the bear to look at 205 00:14:33,519 --> 00:14:35,200 them so they could get a good picture of a bear looking at them, 206 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,080 and Tim was recording this happening, and you can see in the video of 207 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:43,759 the bear flinching as it's being hit with big rocks, which is very upsetting. 208 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,440 But Tim the whole time was just crying and never actually intervened. He 209 00:14:48,559 --> 00:14:52,600 never stepped up and told them to stop. But if you're setting out to 210 00:14:52,639 --> 00:14:58,440 protect these bears this is that would be a perfect example to do so where 211 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,159 no one else is around to stop these people from throwing rocks at bears except 212 00:15:01,159 --> 00:15:07,480 for him, and he did not once again, nothing wrong with escaping into 213 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:11,399 the wilderness, but it's also not exactly right when you're harassing wildlife and breaking 214 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:16,919 rules and potentially damaging the habitat that you have set out to save. Now 215 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:20,799 let us finally get into the incident that you all know about if you've heard 216 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:26,240 of Tim before. It was late September two thousand and three, which is 217 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:30,679 typically when his expedition ended, because winter would be right around the corner and 218 00:15:30,679 --> 00:15:33,360 the bears would be fattening up to get ready for it. As I mentioned 219 00:15:33,399 --> 00:15:37,360 up top, Tim was not always alone, and in two thousand and three, 220 00:15:37,559 --> 00:15:41,360 Amy, his girlfriend, was with him in Katmai. We know from 221 00:15:41,399 --> 00:15:46,919 Tim and Amy's personal diaries that Amy was terrified of the bears. She actually 222 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,639 had also just gotten a new job and was set to start when she got 223 00:15:50,639 --> 00:15:54,200 back from Alaska that fall. She also informed him that this would be her 224 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:58,480 last time accompanying him to stay with the Brown Bears. Whether or not that 225 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:03,360 meant they were going to end the relationship, we don't know. So Tim 226 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,879 and Amy went back to Kodiak to make their way home to California for the 227 00:16:06,919 --> 00:16:11,279 winter, but at the airport in Kodiak, Tim had an altercation with an 228 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:15,120 airport agent over the validity of his ticket, so he decided to return to 229 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,679 his campsite in the Grizzly Maze. Amy had mixed feelings about returning, as 230 00:16:18,679 --> 00:16:22,960 she had a deadline for her new job, and according to Tim's diary, 231 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:26,480 she called him quote hell bent on destruction, but she did return to the 232 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:32,240 Grizzly Maze with him all the same. So it was September twenty ninth, 233 00:16:32,279 --> 00:16:34,679 two thousand and three when they returned to their campsite near the shore of Kathleia 234 00:16:34,799 --> 00:16:38,919 Lake. So I actually want to take a moment before we continue to correct 235 00:16:38,919 --> 00:16:44,039 some information that I've said on this podcast before that I have now come to 236 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:48,240 learn is no longer correct. So previously I have said that bears such as 237 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:53,360 black bears or brown bears go into torpor, which is like not a true 238 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:59,039 hibernation, but like a shortened form of hibernation. And I've come to recently 239 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,080 learn I'm not sure if this is just new information in general or just new 240 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:06,720 to me, but bears such as black bears and brown bears actually do go 241 00:17:06,839 --> 00:17:11,799 into true hibernation. They're actually what some scientists now call quote super hibernators. 242 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:15,240 So, according to bearwise dot org, a bear's metabolism, heartbeat, and 243 00:17:15,279 --> 00:17:19,960 respiration rate drops dramatically, but its body temperatures only drop about twelve degrees during 244 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:25,720 hibernation. They don't eat nor do they go to the bathroom, unlike true 245 00:17:25,799 --> 00:17:27,640 hibernators who wake up every few days to drink, go to the bathroom, 246 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:33,640 and eat some food before they go back to sleep. So I always want 247 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,240 us to be using them as fresh, correct information on this podcast. So 248 00:17:37,039 --> 00:17:41,279 thank you to those who pointed that out to me. And now we will 249 00:17:41,319 --> 00:17:45,359 all go on knowing that bears are in fact hibernators and they are super at 250 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,240 it. So thank you for pointing that out to me. So, just 251 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:52,759 to recap, Tim and Amy were about to go home. Tim got angry 252 00:17:52,759 --> 00:17:56,160 at some people decided he needed one more week with the bears, so they 253 00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:00,160 went back. But this was the latest they had ever really stayed, so 254 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,079 when he got back to their campsite, he claimed that the bears around at 255 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:08,319 this point were quote scary, unknown and wilder bears from the interior. But 256 00:18:08,799 --> 00:18:12,440 Tim also wanted to stay that extra week to try to find and locate one 257 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:17,640 of his favorite bears that he had not seen in a while. Tim had 258 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:19,599 taken a video of himself sitting next to a stream with a large male brown 259 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:25,079 bear behind him that he named Oli. So Tim's back once again is to 260 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:29,240 this bear, as this bear is forging in the stream. He said he 261 00:18:29,279 --> 00:18:33,400 had just met Oli the other day and only promptly charged at him, but 262 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:37,319 Tim stood his ground and was okay. And then in the recording, Tim 263 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:44,039 said this it is the old bear, one who was struggling for survival, 264 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:48,680 and an aggressive one at bat who is the one that you must be very 265 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:53,839 careful of. For these are the bears that, on occasion do for survival 266 00:18:55,039 --> 00:19:00,759 kill any umans. Could only the big old bear possibly kill and eat Timothy 267 00:19:00,759 --> 00:19:03,599 treadwell, what do you think, goalie? I think if you were weak 268 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:10,319 around him and going down as down as gulling going down the pipe. He 269 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:14,240 even said most people should camp in the open with weapons and that what he 270 00:19:14,279 --> 00:19:18,359 was doing was unsafe. Within a few days of their return, he said 271 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:22,400 in one video quote, I have remained safe, but every second of every 272 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,960 day that I have moved through this jungle or even at the tent, I 273 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:33,079 am right on the precipice of great bodily harm or even death end quote. 274 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,279 On Sunday, October fifth, Timothy had a phone call from satellite phone with 275 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:41,319 Jewel, the co founder of Tim's organization in California, and in that call 276 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:47,480 he did not report any problems with any bears. On October sixth, Willie 277 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:49,960 Fulton, his friend and pilot who would often bring them out to Cappai, 278 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:53,839 was set to pick Tim and Amy up to take them home finally for the 279 00:19:53,920 --> 00:20:00,119 year. However, when Willie got to the shore, he didn't say any 280 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,720 gear on the beach where he typically met them, which was unusual, so 281 00:20:03,759 --> 00:20:07,680 he started walking up the embankment towards where he knew their camp was, and 282 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,440 he was calling for them but not getting a response. At one point, 283 00:20:11,519 --> 00:20:15,920 he got an uneasy feeling and turned around, walking quickly towards his plane, 284 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,759 and as he was walking, he looked up in the brush and saw a 285 00:20:18,799 --> 00:20:25,960 big male grizzly with its head down, quietly stalking him. Willie made his 286 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:27,960 way back to his plane as quickly as he could and took to the sky 287 00:20:29,079 --> 00:20:33,559 to look for Amy and Tim. As he flew over their campsite, he 288 00:20:33,599 --> 00:20:37,759 saw a brown bear standing over a human rib cage. Consuming it, and 289 00:20:37,799 --> 00:20:41,559 at that moment he realized it was the same bear that was just stalking him, 290 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:48,400 and that the remains likely belonged to either Tim or Amy. He flew 291 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,359 low to try to scare the bear away from the remains, but each time 292 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:55,319 he dove lower, the bear would just eat more quickly, so Willie called 293 00:20:55,319 --> 00:21:00,119 for help. Willie led Alaska State troopers and members of the Park Service to 294 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,480 the site where he had encountered the bear eating the human remains, and as 295 00:21:03,519 --> 00:21:07,599 they stopped to look around, someone knows to bear approaching them, and everyone 296 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:12,160 began shooting. When the gunfire stopped and the literal cloud of smoke from the 297 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,599 gunfire dissipated, it was clear to Willie that the bear that had just been 298 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,799 shot was the same bear that stalked him just moments before, and he guessed 299 00:21:19,839 --> 00:21:25,079 it was the same bear that killed his friends. As the team began looking 300 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:30,079 around, they found Timothy's disfigured head, a partial human spine, a right 301 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:38,039 forearm in Tim's hand with his wristwatch still attached. Some of Amy's remains were 302 00:21:38,039 --> 00:21:41,799 found partially buried near their torn tent, a sign that the bear that killed 303 00:21:41,839 --> 00:21:47,599 them was cashing her body so basically it killed more than it could eat at 304 00:21:47,599 --> 00:21:53,279 one time and was like just covered her body with leaves and debris to save 305 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:59,799 for later. A short time later, a second adolescent bear was shot in 306 00:22:00,279 --> 00:22:04,480 because it charged park rangers during their recovery efforts. Officials tried retrieving this bear 307 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,160 to do a field ney cropsy, but weather was getting bad that day, 308 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,920 so they left both the bears and took as much as they could and left 309 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:18,480 the area. But when they returned by October seventh through eighth, all that 310 00:22:18,519 --> 00:22:22,279 remained of that second bear was the bear's head and some bones remaining, but 311 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:26,799 its teeth indicated it was probably around three years old. The bear that was 312 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,680 killed first, the one that had stalked Willie, the one that he presumed 313 00:22:30,759 --> 00:22:34,079 killed his friends, was twenty eight years old and had a tattoo on his 314 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:38,039 lip that marked him as Bear one forty one, meaning that he had been 315 00:22:38,079 --> 00:22:42,680 captured by scientists before or the wildlife billogists within the state, and he was 316 00:22:42,759 --> 00:22:48,240 part of their monitoring efforts for the grizzlies in the park. Bear one, 317 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:53,160 for one had worn down teeth and broken canines, but otherwise seemed to have 318 00:22:53,279 --> 00:22:59,480 healthy levels of fat and otherwise seemed to be in okay condition. A field 319 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,319 me cropsy revealed human remains inside his stomach, and in fact it was the 320 00:23:03,319 --> 00:23:07,799 only remains in his stomach, so it was the only thing he had eaten 321 00:23:07,799 --> 00:23:11,880 in a while. And the pictures of that are in the documentary, which 322 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:17,279 is why I set up top to view it with caution. But in the 323 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:19,880 end, at the end of this nee cropsy on Bear one forty one, 324 00:23:21,799 --> 00:23:26,119 four trash bags full of human remains and clothing were taking out of his stomach 325 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:33,000 and it totaled to twenty eight pounds. Ten days before his death is when 326 00:23:33,039 --> 00:23:37,599 Timothy recorded himself with that bear Oli in the background, claiming that Oli could 327 00:23:37,599 --> 00:23:41,160 eat him. And it has been speculated that Oly was in fact Bear one 328 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:48,680 forty one. Because tim was often recording, there is in fact a recording 329 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,640 of the night of the attack, and this is why this case. I 330 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,440 mean, there's a lot of reasons why this case became so popularized in the 331 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:02,160 media, but this is probably the main reas reason that people know of this 332 00:24:02,279 --> 00:24:07,160 case is because there is sound out there of his death, but the lens 333 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,160 cap was on the camera at the time, so there's no actual footage, 334 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:15,119 just the audio, and his co founder of Grizzly People, Juwel Palivak, 335 00:24:15,319 --> 00:24:18,319 is the only one that has this audio, but before it was given to 336 00:24:18,319 --> 00:24:23,000 her, it was analyzed by Alaska State troopers for the purposes of the investigation 337 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:30,160 of their deaths. The audio begins around one thirty pm on October fifth, 338 00:24:30,599 --> 00:24:34,000 so this is the evening before they were supposed to be picked up by Willie 339 00:24:34,079 --> 00:24:38,839 on October sixth, and the audio there is very clear sound of rain, 340 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,599 so there was a storm happening at the time, and Tim and Amy were 341 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:48,400 in their tent about to eat dinner when they heard a bear outside, So 342 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,440 it is speculated that Tim went outside and Amy remained inside. At first, 343 00:24:53,519 --> 00:24:57,680 Amy turns on the camera and you can hear her asking Tim over the sound 344 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:03,400 of the rain, quote, is the bear still out there? Tim responds 345 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,319 with Amy, get out of here. Get out of here. I'm getting 346 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:10,759 killed. You can hear the zipper of the tent as Amy exit it, 347 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,279 and Tim is on the ground with his head in the bear's mouth, and 348 00:25:14,319 --> 00:25:18,960 Amy yells to him to play dead. Tim responds by yelling back at her 349 00:25:18,039 --> 00:25:22,960 to get out of there. This is followed by the sound of wind, 350 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:29,079 rain, and Amy's screams. A few seconds later, Amy tells Tim to 351 00:25:29,079 --> 00:25:32,440 play dead again, and then the bear lets go of Tim and backs away. 352 00:25:33,319 --> 00:25:37,400 So it's assumed here by experts that Tim playing dead worked and that's what 353 00:25:37,519 --> 00:25:42,759 caused the bear to leave. And there's a short conversation that follows this between 354 00:25:42,759 --> 00:25:48,839 Amy and Tim trying to figure out if the bear is actually gone. By 355 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,480 the sounds of the tape, it then assumed that Amy approaches Tim in an 356 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:56,599 effort to help him, but the bear returns, so she backs off. 357 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:03,400 Tim is then clearly heard screaming that playing dead isn't working and starts begging Amy 358 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:08,880 to hit the bear with something. Amy grabs a frying pan and approaches the 359 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:14,799 bear, hitting it on the head. Now, reminder, Amy, it 360 00:26:14,839 --> 00:26:18,960 has been well established, has always been afraid of bears for this exact reason, 361 00:26:18,279 --> 00:26:22,400 but in that moment, she pushed that fear aside to literally run up 362 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:27,200 to a bear trying to eat her boyfriend to help him. As Amy is 363 00:26:27,279 --> 00:26:30,359 hitting this bear with a frying pan, in the background, Tim can be 364 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:36,400 heard moaning, and then the bear lets go of Tim's head and bites his 365 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:41,519 upper thigh and begins dragging him away. Amy is screaming at the top of 366 00:26:41,559 --> 00:26:45,759 her lungs, and Tim can be heard over the storm and over Amy's screams, 367 00:26:45,759 --> 00:26:49,119 saying Amy, you need to get away, so at this point it 368 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:53,319 seemed he had given up on Amy trying to save him. You can hear 369 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:57,160 Tim's moaning as he's dragged away from their camp in this audio, and the 370 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:04,640 bear can be heard fronting and growling all the while Amy is still screaming, 371 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:10,839 but at one point the pitch of her screams changed, and it is believed 372 00:27:10,839 --> 00:27:15,839 when her screams changed is when the bear came back for her, and then 373 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:21,720 the videotape ends because it ran out of tape. So the details of exactly 374 00:27:21,799 --> 00:27:25,920 what happened to Amy are unclear, which I think is fine because obviously we 375 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:30,079 know that she was killed by this bear. But the recording of this attack 376 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,599 is six minutes long. According to the official report released by the Department of 377 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:38,279 the Interior, which you can find online thanks to someone filing a Foyer request, 378 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:44,440 most of Tim and Amy's food that they were eating for themselves was actually 379 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:48,559 in bear proof containers when the air was being investigated, and there was food 380 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,319 easily accessible to bears within the tent, but it did not appear that any 381 00:27:52,319 --> 00:27:56,480 bear tried to actually get into the tent to access that food. Otherwise, 382 00:27:56,519 --> 00:28:00,920 they noted that his campsite was pretty clean. So in that report they listed 383 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:07,640 the contributing factors to Tim and Amy's deaths as follows. One, the location 384 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,640 of their camp site was the primary factor that led to this attack because it 385 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,079 was near active late season spawning sites for salmon and in an area with thick 386 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:22,440 brush at a site nowhere near other people. Two. Tim's pattern of camping 387 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,839 near prime feeding sites during a time when bears were fiercely competing for food contributed 388 00:28:26,839 --> 00:28:30,160 to this attack as well. And three it's possible that the bear was investigating 389 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,839 the human food in the area, but Tim's quote history of approaching bears and 390 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:40,599 allowing bears to approach him within a few feet could have caused this fatal encounter. 391 00:28:41,799 --> 00:28:45,079 The report is really fascinating and shows sketches of the area of the attack 392 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,279 and where certain remains and what not were found, and the report ends with 393 00:28:49,319 --> 00:28:53,240 the wildlife biologists from the area, Larry van Dale, stating his thoughts on 394 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,799 what happened based on the investigation. In the end, he believed it was 395 00:28:57,799 --> 00:29:02,720 an opportunistic killing by the older male bear, and that this was an isolated 396 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,480 incident that the younger second bear that was killed just happened to be in the 397 00:29:06,519 --> 00:29:11,480 wrong place at their wrong time, resulting it in being shot. Now, 398 00:29:11,039 --> 00:29:15,599 Tim really embodied the quote find what you love and let it kill you, 399 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,680 and the pilot that ultimately discovered what had happened to them said that Tim never 400 00:29:19,759 --> 00:29:22,440 would have wanted the bear killed, and he probably would have been happy if 401 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,960 no one had ever found him. But the reality is, as we often 402 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:32,880 talk about in this podcast, is that human lives come first, and sometimes 403 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:37,000 it really sucks. But when you make the choice to approach wild animals and 404 00:29:37,039 --> 00:29:41,400 get them used to people, especially animals like bears, it is a very 405 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,440 real possibility that they will and can hurt someone or damage property to the point 406 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,799 that they will have to be euthanized. And although Tim never would have wanted 407 00:29:49,799 --> 00:29:53,200 these bears to be killed, OLEI and the other bear never would have been 408 00:29:53,240 --> 00:30:00,599 shot had Tim not put himself so close to them. Also, like we 409 00:30:00,599 --> 00:30:03,799 were talking up top about, when Tim had coffee with that superintendent of Katmai, 410 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:08,119 she was saying, be careful or else something bad could happen, someone 411 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,960 could get hurt, or something bad could happen to the bears or people. 412 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:18,519 She was saying that because there had never been a death from a brown bear 413 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:25,960 to a human in Katmai. Ever, Tim's death was the first time in 414 00:30:26,079 --> 00:30:32,039 history that a bear had killed someone there. This was preventable, and this 415 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,400 case has had long lasting effects, of course on the families of Tim and 416 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,559 Amy, but also the people that had to respond to the case, the 417 00:30:37,599 --> 00:30:41,000 people who had to investigate these deaths, that people who had to shoot these 418 00:30:41,079 --> 00:30:45,200 bears, that people who had to do the outreach everybody. It has had 419 00:30:45,519 --> 00:30:52,119 very long lasting effects, even though it was some twenty years ago. In 420 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:56,680 the end, some say Tim set a bad example for how to interact with 421 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:02,599 wildlife and that he encouraged the harassment of bears. I think it's also important 422 00:31:02,599 --> 00:31:04,319 to point out here that the native people in the area, the Alyutic, 423 00:31:04,759 --> 00:31:10,000 had lived with these bears for thousands of years, and in the documentary Grizzly 424 00:31:10,039 --> 00:31:14,400 Man, the director spoke with the curator of the Elyutic Museum, and the 425 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,759 man he spoke to, who was an Elytic person, said that Tim trying 426 00:31:17,799 --> 00:31:22,319 to act like a bear was the quote ultimate of disrespecting the bear and what 427 00:31:22,359 --> 00:31:26,920 the bear represents, and that in the elyutic culture they avoided the bears, 428 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,279 and the bears avoided them, and when they crossed that invisible boundary with the 429 00:31:30,319 --> 00:31:37,079 bears, quote, we pay the price. And the clip of the curator 430 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:42,079 saying that in the film is overlaid onto a clip of Tim taking the video 431 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:48,599 of a brown bear swimming. And then Tim gets into the water and gets 432 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:53,240 right like literally within inches of this bear, and the bear just chooses to 433 00:31:53,359 --> 00:32:00,599 exit the water calmly and just leaves him alone, which honestly is really impressive 434 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,079 if you think about it, the fact that he swam with a wild brown 435 00:32:04,119 --> 00:32:07,880 bear and it chose to not even scratch him at all. Once again, 436 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:12,680 not a good choice. Others say that Tim's work actually did help garner love 437 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:17,000 and protections for more brown bears. And then there is the group of people 438 00:32:17,039 --> 00:32:22,599 who say he got what he deserved, some of which even wrote letters saying 439 00:32:22,599 --> 00:32:27,279 as much to his family and friends, one of which read in the Grizzly 440 00:32:27,319 --> 00:32:30,319 Man documentary, someone sent his close friends a letter saying, quote, a 441 00:32:30,359 --> 00:32:36,279 bare diet consists of liberals and democrats and lack of environmentalists that think the spotted 442 00:32:36,319 --> 00:32:40,079 owl is the most important thing in the world. End quote. You can 443 00:32:40,119 --> 00:32:44,519 hate Tim all you want, but it is so easy to write a letter 444 00:32:44,559 --> 00:32:47,079 from your couch where you're sitting watching Fox News all day to people you don't 445 00:32:47,119 --> 00:32:51,559 know, saying that their close friend deserved to die, when you yourself have 446 00:32:51,799 --> 00:32:54,000 never stepped out of your comfort zone and stood up for something you believed in 447 00:32:54,319 --> 00:32:59,160 even when it wasn't the mainstream thing to do. Also, I'm not sure 448 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,559 what dumpster fire of a person you have to be to hear that someone died 449 00:33:01,599 --> 00:33:05,279 than feel compelled to write a letter to someone that loved them saying that the 450 00:33:05,279 --> 00:33:07,720 person that died deserved it. I'm sure none of you listening to this podcast 451 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:09,759 would do that, So I'm just ranting, but I just felt the need 452 00:33:09,839 --> 00:33:15,000 to say it. So there is was Tim unorthodox? Yes? Did he 453 00:33:15,039 --> 00:33:20,200 break rules and ultimately cause the death of two bears? Also yes, but 454 00:33:20,279 --> 00:33:23,880 he loved something so much that he dedicated his entire life to it and has 455 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:28,160 lived on after his death being known for that passion, which is more than 456 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,799 most people can say. He also managed to live beside brown Bears for thirteen 457 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:37,880 years, literally within feet of them with no conflicts, and he really did 458 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:42,160 capture some amazing footage of the bears and the foxes and Catmai that seemingly no 459 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,599 one else will be able to do and frankly, no one else should do. 460 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:50,440 Like around minute twenty six in that documentary, Tim is sitting with one 461 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,279 of his favorite bears behind him, mister Chocolate, within like ten or fifteen 462 00:33:53,279 --> 00:33:58,400 feet, and one of his favorite foxes that he named Spirit runs up with 463 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,720 her kits. So Tim sitting within feet of a wild brown bear that's just 464 00:34:01,799 --> 00:34:05,680 grazing behind him, ignoring him, and a couple of red foxes that are 465 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,840 following him around link dogs. Once again, although not advised, it is 466 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:15,639 incredible. I don't agree with Tim's methods, but I can understand where he's 467 00:34:15,639 --> 00:34:20,039 coming from. Although I am a biologist and we often have to be objective 468 00:34:20,119 --> 00:34:22,280 and we have to get used to wild life sometimes is being destroyed, it 469 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:27,559 is very easy to forget that each animal is an individual, just like your 470 00:34:27,559 --> 00:34:31,719 pets are. All individuals are wild animals pets, of course not, but 471 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:37,280 each fox, each bear, even each snake, each bird, each turtle, 472 00:34:37,559 --> 00:34:43,360 each fish are all individuals and all animals as a whole are worth protecting. 473 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,920 Few people have gone as far as Timothy did an attempt to protect wildlife 474 00:34:47,039 --> 00:34:52,480 for better or worse. Thank you all so much for listening to this episode. 475 00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:55,960 I will post relevant links in the episode description, and you can find 476 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,440 links to our website Patren and all of our social media in the episode description 477 00:35:00,559 --> 00:35:04,800 as well. I know I've said in the last few episodes that we were 478 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,840 doing like kind of a theme. So we started this year talking about the 479 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:13,840 Endangered Species Act, which grizzlies and brown bears are covered under four Now it 480 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,480 is a very contentious issue, which I'm not going to get into, but 481 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:21,960 after the Abusing the ESA episode, we talked about wildlife rehab and then we 482 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,920 talked to Say about her adventures doing journalism on wild animals. And now we're 483 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,880 ending with we not ending. I'm not saying we're ending the podcast, but 484 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:35,679 like we're ending this little arc with Timothy, and I think the point I 485 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:43,840 was trying to make is we as people have a very complicated relationship with wildlife, 486 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:50,239 and some people decide that certain species are worth killing, like wolves, 487 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,440 like we talked about in the first episode of the year. Some people go 488 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:54,760 out of their way to try to help animals, like we talked about in 489 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:59,159 the rehab episode, and you actually just end up doing more harm than good. 490 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,400 We talked about ways that you actually can be helpful in that episode to 491 00:36:02,559 --> 00:36:07,519 wildlife, and in the episode with Sigh, and about all the wonderful research 492 00:36:07,559 --> 00:36:10,519 that we could do working alongside animals and how we can learn from them and 493 00:36:10,599 --> 00:36:14,920 learn more about how they are individuals and how they deserve to be protected. 494 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:21,679 And I wanted to end that little arc with this story about Timothy because I 495 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:30,360 think it's a good representation of although we should care about wildlife, and although 496 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:36,119 many of us may love wildlife, there's a line and we have to tote 497 00:36:36,159 --> 00:36:40,840 that line in order to preserve them. But when we overstep, when we 498 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:46,840 try to insert ourselves into nature in a way that just isn't appropriate, is 499 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:52,159 when we can end up doing more harm than good. So, once again, 500 00:36:52,599 --> 00:36:57,719 not that I agree with Tim's methods, but he really did love these 501 00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:02,280 bears and just wanted them protect did and really he needed an escape for himself. 502 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:06,960 And I can't say that I haven't gone into the woods as an escape 503 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,320 either. I have not tried to pretend that the animals in the woods are 504 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:15,840 my friends. However, I get it, and I hope that if you 505 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,599 went into this episode knowing about this case and you thought Tim was just some 506 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,440 wacko, that maybe you could have more compassion for him at the end. 507 00:37:22,519 --> 00:37:25,519 But in the end, I do want us all to understand that it is 508 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:30,679 not okay at harass wildlife. There are rules in these national parks for a 509 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:34,400 reason. We should not approach the wild animals in the national parks because it 510 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,880 is not a zoo. They're not our friends. They are there for us 511 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:43,280 to respect from a distance. So thank you all so much for listening. 512 00:37:43,519 --> 00:37:45,559 We'll be back in two weeks with a new animal tech story. But in 513 00:37:45,639 --> 00:37:50,000 the meantime, thank you so much to Josh Walsh for making our intro music. 514 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:52,360 Thank you to Jesse Walsh for doing all the editing, and I will 515 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:57,679 see you later. They needed a caretaker, They needed someone to look after 516 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,599 them, but not a drunk person, not a person messed up. So 517 00:38:00,639 --> 00:38:05,719 I promised the bears that if I would look over them, would they please 518 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:14,079 help me be a better person. And they become so inspirational and living with 519 00:38:14,119 --> 00:38:17,039 the foxes too, that I did. I gave up the drinking. It 520 00:38:17,119 --> 00:38:20,880 was a miracle. It's an absolute miracle, and the miracle was animals. 521 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:22,199 The miracle was animals.