1 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,719 We're back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Jashinski, 2 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:23,960 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:28,199 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on exit fdr LST, 4 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,559 make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts, and of course to the 5 00:00:31,559 --> 00:00:35,759 premium version of the Federalist website, the Federalist dot com as well. I'm 6 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:41,600 joined today by oh Skinner. Oh Skinner is the executive director of the Alliance 7 00:00:41,719 --> 00:00:46,799 for Consumers, also the most recent Arizona Solicitor General. Welcome to the show, 8 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,119 Oh Skinner, Thank you so much for having me on. Yeah. 9 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,640 Absolutely. What's the website for Alliance for Consumers, by the way, Alliance 10 00:00:53,679 --> 00:00:57,479 for Consumers dot org. It's at alliancefoc Consumers dot org. And then it 11 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:03,240 is for underscore consumers on x where I think we try to try to flag 12 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,640 some interesting stuff for people. Oh, super interesting stuff. I always love 13 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:10,439 talking to you guys, because Europe to things that I think, also the 14 00:01:10,719 --> 00:01:12,840 corporate press doesn't pay a ton of attention to, but actually does affect the 15 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:17,480 daily lives of the American people, even though it might like that. You 16 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,719 say that because that is exactly one of the things that we very much try 17 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:26,079 to do is put an actual consumer and every day face on things that mostly 18 00:01:26,159 --> 00:01:30,680 just get covered by you know, big you know people who don't always understand 19 00:01:30,719 --> 00:01:34,519 what regular people care about one hundred percent, And it's not convenient to the 20 00:01:34,599 --> 00:01:38,439 narrative that media likes to tell about all kinds of different issues, whether it's 21 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:42,959 the environment or the administrative state. So why don't we actually just start there? 22 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,519 Could you tell us a little bit about what the Alliance for Consumers does, 23 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:51,359 like some of the different projects and focuses that you guys have, Like 24 00:01:51,359 --> 00:01:53,319 what are you what are you looking at? Yeah, so we look at 25 00:01:53,319 --> 00:02:00,000 a couple of different things. We look at how consumer protection that the government 26 00:02:00,319 --> 00:02:06,040 level does a pretty historically bad job of helping people. So you would see 27 00:02:06,079 --> 00:02:12,840 headlines of a class action settlement or your state attorney general or the CFPB doing 28 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,800 something to somebody who arguably looked like they did a bad thing, and then 29 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:21,000 you find out that nobody actually got a check, or if they got to 30 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,439 check, it was twenty five cents, and like the lawyers took all the 31 00:02:23,479 --> 00:02:25,759 money or the government bureaucrat put all the money in a government bank account to 32 00:02:25,759 --> 00:02:30,360 pay for more government bureaucrats, and you know, at the end of the 33 00:02:30,439 --> 00:02:35,439 day, there was just no voice for consumers in that space. And so 34 00:02:35,479 --> 00:02:38,080 we talk a lot about how government doesn't do a good job for consumers, 35 00:02:38,319 --> 00:02:42,479 or trialers don't do a good job, how they can do a better job. 36 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:46,439 And then another part that we talk about is just the real everyday effects 37 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:53,240 of kind of these government mandates. There's been everyday people. I mean, 38 00:02:53,719 --> 00:02:55,759 I'll use one simple example, which is most of the things in your house 39 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,840 probably feel like they are worse than they were ten years ago. They cost 40 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:07,360 more, they do a worse job, and there's fewer of the things you 41 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:10,759 want in them. And that's weird, right, that's weird for regular people 42 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,039 absolutely, because you know, look there's a lot of whatever the problems in 43 00:03:15,039 --> 00:03:20,159 our economy, most of the time, companies are trying really hard to make 44 00:03:20,199 --> 00:03:23,520 something that you want. Sometimes you know they're selling you things that you don't 45 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:27,960 even need but you know you might want. And here is an example where 46 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:30,280 like you look around your house and you're like, that costs more, takes 47 00:03:30,319 --> 00:03:36,000 longer, does a crappier job, And the little dirty secret behind that is 48 00:03:36,319 --> 00:03:43,599 starting especially in the Obama administration, the federal government and the DC elites realize 49 00:03:43,719 --> 00:03:47,560 that they could just start taking away stuff from you and mandating that you live 50 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:52,479 life a certain way, and they just started ractioning that on all sorts of 51 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:54,560 products. And so we we spend a chunk of our time at Alliance cert 52 00:03:54,560 --> 00:04:00,759 Consumers trying to raise awareness of this because people are all away that things are 53 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:06,319 kind of worse in their house and it really affects you. But you might 54 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:11,840 not have known that it was coming from DC, right, Okay, so 55 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:15,919 you said something interesting there, which is starting, especially in the Obama administration. 56 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:20,079 A lot of people will think back to Ralph Nader or to regulations that 57 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:25,720 came about decades in the past and sort of gradually started to change the relationship 58 00:04:25,759 --> 00:04:30,680 between you know, the the let's say, entrepreneurs or the capitalists that were 59 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:33,800 selling goods and consumers were buying goods. And in some ways that made a 60 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:38,040 lot of sense. In other ways, for example, as we're taping this, 61 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:42,199 the Supreme Court's about to hear oral arguments in a case where that's testing 62 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:46,839 Chevron deference. Is a ministrative agencies have just grown sort of under our noses 63 00:04:46,879 --> 00:04:51,240 in ways that the average person could not possibly track or understand because it's absurd. 64 00:04:51,319 --> 00:04:54,560 I mean, even when you work on these issues, it takes like 65 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:58,600 attorneys like yourself, people at the federalists to study, like they have to 66 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:03,199 study this day in and day out for years to grasp all what's happening here. 67 00:05:03,399 --> 00:05:06,959 So could you talk to us about the process, like how did this 68 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,560 happen? Yeah? So, I mean it's it's it's I really like that 69 00:05:11,639 --> 00:05:15,759 you flagged the rath Nader thing. There's a I mean, there's a reasonable 70 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:21,319 debate in the world on like product safety. Okay, I think very reasonable 71 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:26,920 people on the right can disagree about like you know, and you got like 72 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:31,600 libertarians and about how many safety features a car needs to have to be safe, 73 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:38,040 or how many times something's allowed to blow up in your house before it 74 00:05:38,079 --> 00:05:41,360 should not be allowed to be sold, right, Like, these are actually 75 00:05:41,519 --> 00:05:46,240 fine discussions, Okay, what's and that's some of where a lot of existing 76 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:50,480 government regulation talk was like rath Nader says that car blows up, and somebody 77 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:54,319 says, well that it shouldn't be sold, and then there's a debate, 78 00:05:54,399 --> 00:05:59,399 right, because that those things can cause products to be more expensive, but 79 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,879 arguably they are making them safer, and you're taking away consumers' choices. But 80 00:06:02,959 --> 00:06:06,439 I think in the safety zone, like maybe we can have a discussion. 81 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:12,920 What's crazy is in the Obama administration, the you know, the nerdy nerds 82 00:06:12,959 --> 00:06:18,639 in DC figured out that they could use stuff that had historically not been used 83 00:06:18,639 --> 00:06:21,560 as a weapon as much. Okay, I'm not going to say as perfect. 84 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:27,079 But they started thinking, well, we used to just give credits or 85 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:32,279 tax incentives to buy a more efficient car or a more efficient dishwasher or a 86 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:36,279 more efficient refrigerator. You know, you've seen the energy star stuff on products, 87 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:41,800 right. They decided that what they could start doing is saying no, 88 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:46,600 no, no when we're the energy Oh see you now that's that is a 89 00:06:46,639 --> 00:06:49,360 long running project that the Department of Energy does with the EPA. It's like 90 00:06:49,399 --> 00:06:53,319 really funny if you talk to people in the administration because like each one wants 91 00:06:53,319 --> 00:06:56,519 to claim credit when they like what it does. Oh that's an older product. 92 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,160 But that's I think in a space where it's like, okay, if 93 00:07:00,199 --> 00:07:03,920 you want to identify for consumers what is energy efficient and put like a green 94 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:08,720 clover leaf on it or like a little smiley face, and then that makes 95 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,000 people want to buy it, or even if you want to offer them ten 96 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:15,399 bucks off. As a consumer group, we're like fine, you know if 97 00:07:15,399 --> 00:07:19,000 you live in a progressive enclave of San Francisco and that makes you feel good, 98 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:24,160 Like I'm not fine, have at it? Right. What the Obama 99 00:07:24,199 --> 00:07:30,079 people started doing is saying, hey, we could just start eliminating options for 100 00:07:30,199 --> 00:07:35,120 people to live differently than we want them to. We can start to say 101 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:41,639 that you can't sell a dishwasher unless it meets really efficient standards. We can 102 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:46,240 start saying that you can't sell cars unless they meet standards that are so efficient 103 00:07:46,399 --> 00:07:49,160 that only electric vehicles count. Do you get them? Get it? Like? 104 00:07:49,399 --> 00:07:55,759 They just start imposing these mandates. Now, what's terrible from a consumer's 105 00:07:55,800 --> 00:08:03,439 perspective? And let me just add they think it's veryver because the person who 106 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:09,000 the mandate applies to are the people who make the product. Okay, it 107 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:13,360 applies to like Whirlpool or LG or Samsung. So they just have to stop 108 00:08:13,439 --> 00:08:18,319 making the stuff people want. And so the consumer goes into the store and 109 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:22,519 if they complain, the store just goes, well, that's all Samsung makes 110 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:26,480 me. And maybe the consumer thinks that Samsung just hates them. I don't 111 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:30,680 know picking Samsung to my friend, just want to samsunger for your you know, 112 00:08:31,319 --> 00:08:35,519 maybe Samsung just hates me, but really, the DC bureaucrats went to 113 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:43,320 Samsung and said, you are not allowed to sell anybody a dishwasher that can 114 00:08:43,399 --> 00:08:46,919 do anything with more than a thimble of water and no heat. So surprise, 115 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:52,519 the engineers at Samsung decided that the best they could do was a dishwasher 116 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,960 that takes two hours and forty three minutes to run and does an okay job 117 00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:01,000 and costs a bajillion dollars. And the Obama people were all sitting there, 118 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,320 you know, golf clapping and the cell all yes, good, good, 119 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:07,679 jump and jump. Because what they had done is they had basically mandated that 120 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,799 all sorts of people in Plano, Texas, or Lincoln, Nebraska, or 121 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:16,799 Topeka, Kansas have to buy something which was the product that all of the 122 00:09:16,799 --> 00:09:22,279 elites in DC and San Francisco wanted for themselves. They're like, aha, 123 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:26,759 I got so sick of trying to cajole everyday Americans into living like me. 124 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:31,440 I just like made it so that because of efficiency rules, they all have 125 00:09:31,519 --> 00:09:35,720 to buy the stuff I buy because not allowed to sell inefficient products because of 126 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,080 you know, climate change and the environment and all sorts of other things. 127 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:46,840 And so they really just started this like relentless campaign. And I will say 128 00:09:46,879 --> 00:09:48,879 they started it right, It's not like they perfected it. And all of 129 00:09:48,919 --> 00:09:52,919 a sudden you started to realize that, like I don't know about you, 130 00:09:52,919 --> 00:09:54,320 but like I used to live in this tenement apartment in Boston when I was 131 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,720 in law school. That dishwasher ran for forty five minutes. It got everything 132 00:10:00,279 --> 00:10:05,000 and hot like sculpture fingers, and it was great. And then we moved 133 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,759 to Phoenix, Arizona, and into a newer house that was not made in 134 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:13,240 like nineteen o eight, and the dishwasher was really fancy looking, but it 135 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,519 takes almost three hours and it does an okay job if I'm really careful with 136 00:10:16,639 --> 00:10:24,759 it. That is the one the effect of the government tapping all the manufacturers 137 00:10:24,759 --> 00:10:28,159 on the shoulder and saying walk with us, walk in line with us, 138 00:10:28,399 --> 00:10:33,519 or we're gonna find you and your business right And going back to your point 139 00:10:33,519 --> 00:10:39,919 about like corporate media, most industries most of the time are like, okay, 140 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:43,759 you're gonna promise that everybody has to play by the same rules. Okay, 141 00:10:43,799 --> 00:10:46,919 I guess I don'tay right, they'd like to sell something better. But 142 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,399 if the government says, don't worry, no one's gonna be able to sell 143 00:10:50,399 --> 00:10:54,000 a dishwasher that works, they're like, oh, so you usually have a 144 00:10:54,039 --> 00:11:00,519 lot less corporate pushback anyway. So that worked across that one, across all 145 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:07,720 sorts of products, and then and then what you saw with the So what 146 00:11:07,799 --> 00:11:11,039 I think is so interesting is in the Trump administration, I went to the 147 00:11:11,039 --> 00:11:15,679 state of Arizona and we worked closely with parts of the Trump administration on this. 148 00:11:16,399 --> 00:11:20,240 They took a pretty populous event which was, hey, why don't we 149 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:26,120 just create a new category of dishwasher that could maybe like and washing machine and 150 00:11:26,159 --> 00:11:28,639 some other things. They could just like do the job in an hour, 151 00:11:28,759 --> 00:11:31,960 like its sole criteria is it needs to run in an hour, and it's 152 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,080 like a whole different category. And that way, like every day people could 153 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:37,960 just buy that. And if you want to buy like a traditional three hour 154 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:45,720 washing machine, go do that and you'd be amazed, Like consumers roting comments 155 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,840 the State of Arizona a lot a comment to kind of aggregate a bunch of 156 00:11:48,879 --> 00:11:52,200 these where every day people were just like, thank you, I'm running my 157 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,799 dishwasher twice. How is that more efficient? I'm putting three pods in my 158 00:11:54,840 --> 00:12:00,639 dishwasher. That's stupid. I'm hand washing my dishes then using my dishwasher. 159 00:12:00,639 --> 00:12:03,960 How could the Obama administration think that that's more efficient? Right, just all 160 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:07,480 sorts of things that I think we're like everyday common sense, which is, 161 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,759 how can it be more efficient to mandate that something doesn't work so then everyone 162 00:12:11,879 --> 00:12:18,639 uses it twice? Yeah, and it's crazy. I think it's crazy, 163 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:24,960 and everyday people think it's crazy. But the elites in DC were like, 164 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:28,759 we figured it out, Like we figured out how to force people to only 165 00:12:28,799 --> 00:12:31,639 buy what we want them to buy. Well, just like remove everything else 166 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:37,080 from the market under efficiency standards. Like you and I would have never thought 167 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:41,519 like efficiency standards are like the key to unlock the door for like progressive lifestyle 168 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:45,000 choices to be mandated for everybody, right, But that's what they figured out. 169 00:12:46,399 --> 00:12:50,039 Well in the I was gonna say it, it's also interesting that these 170 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:56,399 efficiency standards hamper quality in a way that you consumers don't like obviously, but 171 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:01,159 they're you can't have both when you have these standards, like there's there's no 172 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:05,679 way to meet and this is sort of a question. This is my understanding 173 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:09,159 of the situation is like there's absolutely no way for these companies to meet the 174 00:13:09,159 --> 00:13:15,960 standards and and also make products efficiently that are affordable for consumers, and then 175 00:13:16,159 --> 00:13:20,960 also hit those standards while performing really well. It just that seems like an 176 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:24,519 untenable situation for the companies. Like gravity, I mean, like if you 177 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,399 tell somebody make a really fast car, but you can spend eight Like when 178 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:33,440 you when you constrain so many of the factors saying no water, no heat, 179 00:13:33,639 --> 00:13:37,120 they have to they send as much money as they can to get it 180 00:13:37,159 --> 00:13:39,840 as good as they can, but they still there's limits, right, like 181 00:13:39,879 --> 00:13:45,399 you're you're you're messing with so many of the inputs that it makes it almost 182 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:50,320 impossible. And then and then, but I think, what's really fascinating that 183 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:54,120 none of the elites ever thought of because I think I think that maybe just 184 00:13:54,159 --> 00:13:58,519 not normal people. I think I'm allowed to say that one here. Oh 185 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,000 please, Yes, it didn't occur to them that people were going to just 186 00:14:01,039 --> 00:14:05,519 like run, they just rush or twice. So the whole premise of the 187 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,440 rule was it's so much more efficient, you know, for for the land 188 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:15,159 and the water and you know, mother guy, but the but they were 189 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:20,639 doing it in such an aggressive way that the obvious reaction of a family of 190 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:26,080 five in Topeka, Kansas was one that had to floster twice. It's the 191 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:31,200 only way to make it work, which of course very clearly would undo the 192 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:37,720 efficiency mandate, right like, and they hadn't factored that in because I don't 193 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,799 think they don't think it occurred to them, like maybe some families have more 194 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:46,480 than like one point two children or live in places that are in San Francisco. 195 00:14:46,879 --> 00:14:50,000 So ayah. So the strumministration did all these good things, right, 196 00:14:50,039 --> 00:14:54,080 and I think what's like, what's really fascinating and why I think this is 197 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:58,480 newsworthy is last week when the news came out that in the fifth circud quart 198 00:14:58,519 --> 00:15:05,159 of Appeals down in Texas, Judge Andy Oldham, a great American, wrote 199 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:07,679 an opinion in louisianaivers part of Energy. Where So the first sorr, I 200 00:15:07,679 --> 00:15:13,080 should say, the first day of the Biden administration, one of the executive 201 00:15:13,159 --> 00:15:18,679 orders was he ordered the agencies to basically undo all of these Trump pro consumer 202 00:15:18,759 --> 00:15:24,159 rules, like you cannot have those dishwashers that do anything in an hour or 203 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:28,679 less, right like how dare you? And there was a lawsuit the state 204 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:35,360 of Louisiana, one of my good friends sued and some of the arguments were 205 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:39,039 really strong. There were things like this isn't more efficient And what happened is 206 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:45,039 the Fifth Circuit said the Biden attempt to undo these good rules was flawed, 207 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,720 and there was a lot of legal reasoning that is not that relevant. But 208 00:15:48,759 --> 00:15:52,200 I think what was really fascinating is a judge in Texas, Judge Oldham, 209 00:15:54,519 --> 00:15:58,759 just wrote things like you didn't consider that people are going to run something, 210 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,080 and that was pretty obvious from all the comments, but you didn't address that. 211 00:16:03,919 --> 00:16:08,600 Also, your mandate with regard to dishwashers is to make the more energy 212 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:14,440 efficient, but most of your analysis talks about saving water. Well, the 213 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:18,399 statue doesn't say you're allowed to think about water, and in fact, you 214 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,240 know what you should be doing is allowing them to use a lot more water, 215 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:23,519 even if you constrain the energy efficiency. So you're thinking about it wrong. 216 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:27,840 Your analysis is all wrong, and you're not considering how everyday people actually 217 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:33,879 use these products, which means you've totally failed under classic administrative law, like 218 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:40,799 imposing something without considering how people are going to use it is the height of 219 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:45,759 absurd and no, I'm undoing what you did. That's huge, that's huge 220 00:16:45,919 --> 00:16:52,919 because it is a like you will laugh. I think I laughed. Like 221 00:16:52,919 --> 00:16:56,919 it took a federal judge in Texas to be like, you know, clapping 222 00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:00,919 like idiots. People don't use these things like you think they do. They 223 00:17:00,039 --> 00:17:03,240 use them like a regular person does. Right, And he was like and 224 00:17:03,319 --> 00:17:08,759 on that basis, you you're idiots, and did the Biden administration. So 225 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:12,079 this is from the Fifth Circuit on January eighth, right, like this is 226 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:18,680 very recent, yeah, very recent. And what's the Biden administration pursuing. 227 00:17:18,799 --> 00:17:22,279 I imagine they've immediately signaled that they're pursuing in the opposite direction. They're going 228 00:17:22,319 --> 00:17:25,279 to keep fighting. I don't know what they're going to do because the hardest 229 00:17:25,559 --> 00:17:30,920 So this is where Judge Olden did like a classic very clever thing, which 230 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:34,039 is he not only said you failed to consider how every day people are going 231 00:17:34,079 --> 00:17:37,799 to use them, but he said a lot of strong things about the statute 232 00:17:37,799 --> 00:17:41,519 where he goes, you can't just like ratchet down the water and say that 233 00:17:41,519 --> 00:17:45,720 that's on energy efficiency, like you know, it's very nerdy. But he's 234 00:17:45,759 --> 00:17:48,920 like some statutes say that you're allowed to consider water. This one doesn't. 235 00:17:49,079 --> 00:17:52,240 Why are you considering water? Seems like you didn't read it, seems like 236 00:17:52,279 --> 00:17:56,039 you aren't trying to follow it. Seems like you don't get to count that 237 00:17:56,119 --> 00:18:00,400 as better. Right, So that that's going to hurt them, because the 238 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:04,480 one thing that I didn't get to he got me all wound up is in 239 00:18:04,519 --> 00:18:10,279 the last two or three months the Biden administration. Whatever we thought of the 240 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:15,079 Bomb administration, the Biden administration went just it was like a royal rumble. 241 00:18:15,319 --> 00:18:21,839 At the end of the year, they put out rules for refrigerators, freezers, 242 00:18:22,599 --> 00:18:33,119 dishwashers, ovens, cars, and furnaces, all at the end of 243 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:37,519 the year initial proposals, and they're not done yet. And in almost every 244 00:18:37,559 --> 00:18:44,440 case their proposals acknowledged that eighty ninety sometimes almost one hundred percent of the product 245 00:18:44,759 --> 00:18:48,559 currently on the market would not meet the new standards, which, if you 246 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:53,200 think about it in non government speak, means Biden decided at the end of 247 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,480 twenty twenty three to announce that he was going to wipe away eighty percent or 248 00:18:57,519 --> 00:19:03,519 more of the cars on the market, the dishwashers, the refrigerators, the 249 00:19:03,559 --> 00:19:11,559 furnaces off of the market and make all the manufacturers start making what he wanted 250 00:19:11,599 --> 00:19:15,599 them to make highly even more efficient, even better this, even better that, 251 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:21,039 and make this go to like the next level. And a lot of 252 00:19:21,039 --> 00:19:22,599 those, not every single one of them, but a lot of those are 253 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:29,319 going to have to go back to square one because you know, the State 254 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:32,079 of Tennessee had already called them out for a bunch of things, but now 255 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,200 the Fifth Circuit has said, at least with a bunch of those, like, 256 00:19:34,599 --> 00:19:38,400 you're not actually even thinking about efficiency right, and you're not factoring in 257 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:44,240 how people use these products still, like you really like this is you're not 258 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:48,319 doing this right, and that's going to cause the bureaucrats to go back to 259 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:51,599 square one on a lot of this stuff, which because it's an election here, 260 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:56,240 couldn't mean that like consumers were just saved. It all depends on how 261 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:00,000 the next election is and what is Obviously, there's a ton of conversation about 262 00:20:00,079 --> 00:20:03,359 blueprints for a future Republican administration, whether it's another Trump administration or otherwise, 263 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:08,599 specifically as it comes to the administrative state, and obviously, again as we're 264 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:12,039 recording, this chevron is quite literally on the table at the Supreme Court right 265 00:20:12,039 --> 00:20:21,480 now. A, is there is Chevron's salient to this question? Are there 266 00:20:21,519 --> 00:20:25,960 are there major ways that we've seen Chevron defference contribute to the problem that you 267 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:32,319 just really helpfully described. And b what are at the extent that you're aware 268 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:37,880 conservatives suggesting be done? You know right away again if the executive branch goes 269 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:42,799 to Republicans in the future. So Chevron difference plays into a lot of this. 270 00:20:42,839 --> 00:20:47,079 So the key with Chevron difference is that it really kicks in when a 271 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:52,319 statute is not very clear. So what's interesting is in a lot of these 272 00:20:52,319 --> 00:20:57,160 spaces, the Biden and Obama administrations would say that the statute was super clear. 273 00:20:57,279 --> 00:21:03,000 It says increase efficiency, and therefore I'm increasing energy efficiency, right. 274 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:07,279 They didn't actually ever say it was unclear. Sometimes you get Chevron difference. 275 00:21:07,559 --> 00:21:08,920 Shoven difference really plays in. And a lot of these were like they have 276 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,480 to go find some like tiny statute that had never been ran a certain way 277 00:21:14,039 --> 00:21:18,000 and like shove like a student mom bailadd or something through it just like use 278 00:21:18,039 --> 00:21:23,640 like an imagine you're hypothetical. But all of this plays down on what I 279 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:30,799 think is so powerful is when people and the next administration should do this, 280 00:21:32,079 --> 00:21:33,599 and I know a lot of people worked in the last administration and they did 281 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:40,480 do this is when you so I'll use this. I'll use this as the 282 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:45,839 framing of consumer protection. For a long time, the conservative kind of corporatist 283 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:52,839 model of consumer protection was don't sue people because companies are so important. And 284 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,559 the liberal perspective was sue everybody, but keep all the money because we need 285 00:21:56,599 --> 00:21:59,880 to sue more people and the government needs the money. Right. What we've 286 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,279 tried to do is insert like a different voice, which is like you should 287 00:22:03,279 --> 00:22:07,319 just like fight for people and you should really focus on like doing consumer protection 288 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:11,039 so that checks go to consumers. Well, similarly on the regulatory space, 289 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:21,200 it's amazing Judge Oldham didn't stay super aggressive things in fighting over this diffasher role. 290 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:23,920 What he said was like almost he took on the language of the left, 291 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,640 like fine, you have to be efficient. Let's talk about how everyday 292 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:32,119 people use stuff. If they have to use it twice, it's not efficient. 293 00:22:32,519 --> 00:22:38,480 So it's almost just like bringing common sense, non DC thinking to these 294 00:22:38,519 --> 00:22:44,480 problems of like, okay, your your mandate from the statute is to do 295 00:22:44,559 --> 00:22:48,599 efficiency. Let's make sure that We're only going to pass rules that are going 296 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:53,960 to actually make people's lives better in the real world. So, like one 297 00:22:55,000 --> 00:23:02,960 of the Biden administration rules is mandating fuel efficiency. That's so hot that everyone's 298 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,440 gonna have to buy an electric car? What we just saw that everybody's electric 299 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:11,079 cars throws up like hockey pucks in Chicago because it got really cold, and 300 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:15,480 I am so yeah, giant hockey bucks. Like what does local TV called 301 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,640 it? Like dead robots? Just like a field of dead robots. That 302 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:22,119 was pretty funny. You know. A Judge Oldham like approach to this would 303 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:29,279 be like is it actually more fuel efficient if nobody can buy a new gas 304 00:23:29,319 --> 00:23:34,279 car? So everybody who lives in rural Texas or rural America just keeps buying 305 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:40,400 older and older used trucks which are less efficient, Like if those stay on 306 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,720 the road, are you really being more efficient when you mandate new cars? 307 00:23:42,799 --> 00:23:48,960 Right? Basic questions about like how does a reasonable person react because the liberal 308 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,680 beercruts, Just like if we ban all the gas cars and everyone will just 309 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,480 buy brand new, super expensive electric cars, and it's like, no, 310 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,680 they won't. A bunch of people can't afford them, and a bunch of 311 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,279 people live in rural parts of the country where they would rather be caught dead 312 00:24:03,319 --> 00:24:04,480 than have a car that they don't know where they can charge it. Right. 313 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:10,359 So even just like when you go into these boardrooms at the you know, 314 00:24:10,759 --> 00:24:15,680 the EPA is and the Clinton Building in DC, and you say things 315 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:21,119 like you have to actually factor in consumer choices. Why don't we do a 316 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:25,519 consumer survey, Why don't we actually talk to consumers? Why don't we weigh 317 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:33,440 consumer comments higher than random nonprofits? Back by doors sorrows just little tweaks to 318 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:40,200 be like, the whole point is to improve people's lives, not to make 319 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:45,079 their lives worse. And it's funny because, like a lot some chunk of 320 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,160 these bureaucrats, they don't think they're making people's lives worse. And when you 321 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:52,920 explain to them that they are, they're like they feel kind of sheepish because 322 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,240 they just were so fixated on efficiency, efficiency, efficiency. So to me, 323 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,359 it's like, oh, I want to be very clear. And going 324 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,839 back to your corporate media, think the automakers man, those guys they all 325 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:11,039 were talking like they thought that the new Biden administration rules would be okay. 326 00:25:12,559 --> 00:25:17,839 And then when the rules came out. They were supposed to announce them in 327 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,880 Detroit, and all the automakers like freaked out, and they're just now realizing 328 00:25:22,039 --> 00:25:27,160 that the Biden administration just hates them and jobs are going to China. Yeah, 329 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:32,640 exactly, exactly all the things like they The little secret is the Bide 330 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:37,200 administration, like most of the progressive staffing of the Biden administration, just wants 331 00:25:37,319 --> 00:25:45,119 everyone to kind of have smaller houses, smaller cars, go less places, 332 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:51,759 have fewer kids, eat less. You know, it's kind of it's kind 333 00:25:51,759 --> 00:25:57,440 of dystopian in a bad way, rather than helping people live, you know, 334 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,440 a slightly more efficient life, life in a way that isn't just like 335 00:26:00,559 --> 00:26:07,920 pain and suffering. And so I think it's important to constantly think about consumers 336 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,559 because in DC there's so many interest groups. There's like the carmakers, there's 337 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:17,759 the you know this group, the National assisial manufacturers. They all have interests, 338 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,319 but very rarely do they have the interest of consumers in mind. And 339 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:26,440 so a lot of what we just talk about all the time is just everyday 340 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,480 people care about basic things. They want the things in their house to work. 341 00:26:30,599 --> 00:26:33,039 They don't want them to blow up. Let's be very clear, but 342 00:26:33,039 --> 00:26:36,440 they also would just like like them to work and not cost a gajillion dollars. 343 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,039 And at the end of the day, you know, that's that's the 344 00:26:41,039 --> 00:26:44,240 most important thing. And if you keep that in mind, a lot of 345 00:26:44,319 --> 00:26:48,720 regulations get a lot easier to think about because you're just thinking, like, 346 00:26:48,279 --> 00:26:52,279 what's this going to do to an avera Ridge person And the answer is normally 347 00:26:52,319 --> 00:26:53,920 it's going to make their lives the miserable. I don't know if you saw 348 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,480 that. Walter Kern wrote a superviral essay on this recently on how nothing works. 349 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,640 Like you talked about his car, but he also talked about how he 350 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,839 has things, you know, simple things that he's got garage sales that were 351 00:27:03,839 --> 00:27:07,279 manufactured in like the fifties. That works so much better than something you get 352 00:27:07,319 --> 00:27:11,599 on Amazon. And I was actually just going to ask you kind of what 353 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,279 you were talking about, potentially about the role of consolidation and all of this 354 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,359 lobbying and all of this, and I know that's kind of a huge issue, 355 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:26,240 but I'm just kind of basically curious in the sort of Baptist and bootlegger 356 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,640 dynamic in that, you know, if you're talking about cars, for example, 357 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,960 not a ton of not a ton of competition anymore. I mean there's 358 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:38,559 a lot of consolidation in that industry, but I bet with dishwashers and other 359 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:45,720 things. You know, in some cases, these corporations have acquiesced to the 360 00:27:45,759 --> 00:27:48,960 status quo a because they're full of you know, now we know you know, 361 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,480 for example, who's investing in renewables at the highest rates, like it's 362 00:27:52,519 --> 00:27:56,440 eggs on. Partially because they're staffed by people who buy into all of this, 363 00:27:56,599 --> 00:28:00,799 and also partially because it hurts any potential competition and it hurts the small 364 00:28:00,799 --> 00:28:07,960 guys. To what extent is that dynamic present in what you're describing, I 365 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,960 mean, it's president in almost every aspect of what you're seeing with what so, 366 00:28:11,559 --> 00:28:17,839 the left influence on corporate America has a lot of the as A lot 367 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,759 of it come starting in the bomb administration with you know, look at Dee, 368 00:28:21,759 --> 00:28:25,000 I look at all this stuff. When the BOMBA people came out and 369 00:28:25,039 --> 00:28:30,440 started stacking up companies under the assumption that Hillary Clinton would be the next president. 370 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,920 They were telling everyone like, get ahead of it, right, get 371 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,839 ahead of the diversity mandates that are going to come out of the Civil Rights 372 00:28:36,839 --> 00:28:40,000 Division, get ahead on the green mandates. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 373 00:28:40,039 --> 00:28:42,200 get ahead of everything, just like get ahead because she's going to come after 374 00:28:42,279 --> 00:28:45,880 you. And if you don't, and I can teach you how to get 375 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,079 ahead because like I drew the map up to this point and she's going to 376 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,119 keep drawing it. I can get you there, right and then like surprise, 377 00:28:52,279 --> 00:28:59,759 Hillary Clinton's not president. But I think what's what's crazy is this big 378 00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:03,720 little dynamic that you flagged is so present, Like why do big oil companies 379 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:08,720 not mined? And look, I think oil companies are great because we more 380 00:29:08,759 --> 00:29:12,200 power for more people is just better. Like life is better when you can 381 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,920 heat your home. Life is better when you can air condition your home. 382 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:21,920 It's just true. But they don't mind all sorts of limits on new drilling 383 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:27,480 in America because they already have oil fields in like French Giana, right Uh, 384 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,400 I mean I'm serious, Like they're like they're like they're drilling oil and 385 00:29:33,559 --> 00:29:37,640 Surinam and they are making some of these up, but not really you know, 386 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:42,119 they're they're drilling oil and Surnam or Nigeria, and so sure, shutdown 387 00:29:42,119 --> 00:29:45,319 American drilling. I don't care. I already got a big oil field off 388 00:29:45,319 --> 00:29:52,680 of Brazil or off of Angola or where and and they like these things because 389 00:29:53,359 --> 00:29:57,079 you know it helps them, So it's not that shocking. But I think 390 00:29:57,079 --> 00:30:07,920 what's also important is there are still divergences. And what I like about conservatives 391 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,559 when we talk about consumer issues is we have the ability to remind people. 392 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,559 I don't know, I think the EV's thing is just so big the by 393 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,240 I mean, I don't know how many stories you have to see about hurts 394 00:30:18,559 --> 00:30:23,200 selling their evs. All of these promises and dreams of evs has run into 395 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:27,400 the reality. My friend always says this, and I hope maybe it's tied 396 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,480 to something that will cause us to get canceled. But like the dogs just 397 00:30:30,519 --> 00:30:37,160 don't like the dog food, right, it's just everyday people just don't really 398 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,680 want evs. They certainly don't want them now. So like twenty percent of 399 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,640 America or ten percent, probably ten percent of America got really excited about EV's 400 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,880 and they bought them and they drove them, and they didn't care how much 401 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:52,839 they cost. Tesla is like slashing the price of EV's boards, making evs 402 00:30:52,279 --> 00:30:55,680 no one wants them. I mean how many times. I mean, if 403 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,559 you ever followed there's a great Twitter account called car dealership guy all of the 404 00:30:59,599 --> 00:31:04,799 pictures of it's an anonymous account. It's so great all of these Ford dealers 405 00:31:04,839 --> 00:31:10,279 in outside like Kansas City, because remember the Ford dealers are like where people 406 00:31:11,039 --> 00:31:14,920 who buy F one fifties their placed there right, Like you don't have a 407 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,640 lot of Tesla dealers in like rural misery. And they're like, yeah, 408 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,240 I got all these like Ford Mustang monkeys. Nobody wants them. I would 409 00:31:22,319 --> 00:31:26,279 just really like to have more F one fifties, but we can't make more 410 00:31:26,319 --> 00:31:29,000 of those. So I'm stuck with all these evs and no one wants them. 411 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,119 They're literally sitting in a lot over there. Nobody wants them. You 412 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:33,480 know, You're starting to see that more and more. We're like, at 413 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:40,960 the end of the day, the companies are realizing that the consumers don't want 414 00:31:41,039 --> 00:31:45,519 what Biden is pushing, and the F one fifties cost more money and the 415 00:31:45,559 --> 00:31:49,079 evs are subsidized. Oh, I mean, have you This is maybe I 416 00:31:49,079 --> 00:31:52,480 should listen to your podcast more. My favorite is there was a line in 417 00:31:52,519 --> 00:32:00,319 the Ford annual statement to ten k like last year we're described how they're large 418 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:04,400 duty vehicles, which is basically their truck and maybe like a Ford expedition, 419 00:32:05,039 --> 00:32:07,599 Like I'm making up the number, but I'm off only by a little bit. 420 00:32:07,839 --> 00:32:10,279 They were responsible for like one hundred and fourteen percent of the net profit 421 00:32:10,319 --> 00:32:15,119 of the company. Yeah, which basically means that all of the rest of 422 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:20,519 the divisions lost a metric boatload of money, and so they had to make 423 00:32:20,559 --> 00:32:22,720 as much money as they could off of the trucks to pay for all the 424 00:32:22,759 --> 00:32:25,640 money losing on the other side of the business. Right, So when people 425 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,920 are like, man, I can't believe a new Chevvy suburban, So this 426 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,200 is a great example. I can't believe a new Chevy suburban caused like eighty 427 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,359 thousand dollars because at least when I was a kid, like that was just 428 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,440 a normal car. And it's like, well, when you explain to somebody 429 00:32:37,599 --> 00:32:40,200 like, well, every time you sell one of those, you have to 430 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:45,880 sell two ebs to meet your feel efficiency standards as a company, which means 431 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:49,119 you better make a lot of money off of that suburban because you're going to 432 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,119 have to lose five grand on each of those you know, Chevy bolts over 433 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,960 there in order to be allowed by the government to sell this. Does that 434 00:32:55,000 --> 00:33:00,640 make sense? Like that's the world that the Obama and Biden administration have made 435 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:06,039 where they have to gouge you on their big cars in order to meet the 436 00:33:06,079 --> 00:33:09,319 efficiency standards so that the FEDS don't find them into oblivion. And then you 437 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:14,160 just imagine how much more money they would lose if the evs weren't subsidized and 438 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,759 they were just to sell these. Yeah. Now, I want to be 439 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:22,079 very clear that the scariest thing from a consumer perspective is there's two conclusions from 440 00:33:22,079 --> 00:33:28,599 what I just explained to you on dishwashers on cars, right, consumers don't 441 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:35,880 want the kreddit products. So auction one is manufacturers pray for the ability to 442 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,160 sell you what you want. Option two is they're just like, so, 443 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:43,720 the only solution, Biden, is if you literally mandate that everybody buys electric 444 00:33:43,759 --> 00:33:45,759 vehicles, because if you don't mandate it, we can't make them do it. 445 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,359 We keep cutting the price and they just don't want them. And then 446 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,400 Biden's like, hold my beer, like I'm just going to ban gas powered 447 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:57,839 cars. Brilliant, And then the minute and then and then the car companies 448 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,359 are like, well that might do it, like like if nothing else sales, 449 00:34:01,359 --> 00:34:05,880 we'll just like, we'll just ban it, right, And so that's 450 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:12,639 what I fear is like, the negative sales of evs is heartening because it 451 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:16,320 shows that the consumer can still fight back, right, like barely, they 452 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:21,199 can still fight back against this. Yeah, and their voice is still heard. 453 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:27,440 Right every time Bloomberg or some big left wing media company runs a story 454 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,800 about how consumers don't like EV's, don't want them, won't buy them, 455 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,159 They're losing money, and people still don't want to buy them because like, 456 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:38,800 let that sink in. Ford's losing their face. I'm like a Chevvy bowl, 457 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,760 and yet you still don't want it, even though you're getting it for 458 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:45,639 ten grand less than it costs them to make, right, Like that's just 459 00:34:45,679 --> 00:34:51,960 an amazing reality. And and so that's I feel heartened that, like, 460 00:34:52,000 --> 00:35:00,159 the consumers are punching so hard back that even Michael Bloomberg's news company is announcing 461 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:06,559 that consumers just don't want the dog food. So I'm also curious about your 462 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:12,039 experience as a solicitor general, because you know, I'm thinking, right now, 463 00:35:12,079 --> 00:35:14,239 this might seem like a little bit of a one to eighty, but 464 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:16,960 I think the connection makes sense too, and I'll flush it out a little 465 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:22,079 bit about Robert F. Kennedy Junior and the interesting tension that exists between the 466 00:35:22,119 --> 00:35:27,320 sort of nator side of him and the side of him that was infuriated by, 467 00:35:27,519 --> 00:35:31,480 for example, a vaccine mandate that was justified and obviously overturned, but 468 00:35:31,599 --> 00:35:37,679 in this like obscure part of OSHA, like the act that established OSHA. 469 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:42,760 So there's this, you know, the Natiarism is increasingly butting heads with the 470 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:47,000 administrative state, and as Solicitor General, I imagine one of the interesting things, 471 00:35:47,119 --> 00:35:52,679 kind of coming from a conservative perspective is that you are working with people 472 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:57,360 in the government who might not necessarily be you know, they kind of died 473 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:02,480 in the wole Conservatives, and you are responsive to a broad populace and all 474 00:36:02,519 --> 00:36:07,320 of that. So I guess I'm just curious for your thoughts. As you 475 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:12,320 know, there's more and more awareness kind of about the dystopian and of the 476 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:16,440 administrative state's goals on the left and the right at least nationally, and then 477 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:22,000 your experience, you know, kind of on that state level of talking to 478 00:36:22,039 --> 00:36:25,800 people, just like having these conversations, thinking these things through, and just 479 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:31,440 hearing people's responses to that. So I would say the biggest thing is they 480 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:40,480 did a lot of consumer protection cases in Arizona was it's everyday people, in 481 00:36:40,559 --> 00:36:47,079 my opinion, want government, especially if your consumer protection division. They get 482 00:36:47,079 --> 00:36:52,519 the most excited about the small things. They want the government to help make 483 00:36:52,559 --> 00:36:57,559 sure that the local used car lot doesn't screw them over, or that if 484 00:36:57,559 --> 00:37:00,719 their warranties not being honored and they write a life or to the government, 485 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:06,079 that the government like responds and tries to help mediate the situation, which we 486 00:37:06,159 --> 00:37:09,639 did a lot in Arizona. Like there's this really rich guy who's apparently friends 487 00:37:09,639 --> 00:37:12,440 of a friend of mine and they were like, oh, I got screwed 488 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,599 over with this Jaguar dealership. Like can you help me because I ran consumer 489 00:37:15,679 --> 00:37:21,639 protection and they thought that I was being kind of glib when I said, 490 00:37:21,679 --> 00:37:25,360 just file the online consumer complaint for him. They were like really. And 491 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,159 then I heard from the guy like a month later, he goes, I 492 00:37:28,159 --> 00:37:30,320 filed out, I filed out the form, and the team, which is 493 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:36,880 non college educated call center people helped and the warranty got honored. He was 494 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,840 exciting. Wow, that's like government. That's what everyday people want. They 495 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:45,199 want the DMV to work, They want consumer protection to help them get their 496 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:51,679 warranty honored, and they want a check out of a bad actor like quickly 497 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:58,920 the way that and it's amazing if you tell bureaucrats that's the goal, man, 498 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,199 they will do that because it's like, we want to help people quickly 499 00:38:01,639 --> 00:38:07,599 with the things that are highly relevant to their everyday lives. If you direct 500 00:38:07,679 --> 00:38:10,280 them in that way, they're do gooder nature. At least here in Arizona. 501 00:38:10,519 --> 00:38:13,679 They're like, sounds great, let's go do that, and they think 502 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:17,840 about how they can accomplish that. What you see with the Left and a 503 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:23,000 little bit of this like post Nator like new the Obama style is they actually 504 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:29,199 do a terrible job with helping on the car warranty, and they do a 505 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:34,320 terrible job of running the DMV, and they do a terrible job of getting 506 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,440 you a check out of a bad actor within like a year. Because they're 507 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:44,920 so fixated on changing the world, they don't think like whatever, Like Nator 508 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,519 had both of these streets, but like the way he talked was like stop 509 00:38:47,559 --> 00:38:52,360 the car from blowing up. Now the way they talk is like make everything 510 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:57,599 the way I want it to be. And so I think that is just 511 00:38:57,639 --> 00:39:04,880 a fascinating dynam because when you're in government. If you focus on the little 512 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,960 things, people are blown away that the government works for them. And when 513 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,960 you get them at you know, we worked really hard to finish consumer cases, 514 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,599 like really fast, because people were so used to like six y I 515 00:39:15,599 --> 00:39:21,119 saw this case the other day. Apparently I like to talk about Ford a 516 00:39:21,159 --> 00:39:24,159 lot. It was like this case that the states were bringing against Ford over 517 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:30,400 like trucks for towing capacity. It took him eight years and they got something 518 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:35,039 like eighteen million dollars spread over fifty states. And if you think about how 519 00:39:35,119 --> 00:39:38,880 much money that means per state and how many years they were spent, it's 520 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:44,559 like comically stupid. But that's what people are used to. They're used to 521 00:39:44,639 --> 00:39:49,039 like hearing about a settlement over a product that nobody even remembers anymore. Because 522 00:39:49,079 --> 00:39:57,400 the administrative state that the Left envisions is changing America and we should be focused 523 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,280 This goes back to the tru administration. You should not be focused on like 524 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:06,000 government not existing. We should just be focused on government working and looking down 525 00:40:06,159 --> 00:40:10,559 at tiny problems that affect everyday people because there's a lot of them. They're 526 00:40:10,559 --> 00:40:16,320 overlooked constantly, and people are immensely grateful when the government helps with those things. 527 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:21,960 They are far less interested in the government taking away their dishwashers than they 528 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:25,119 are with the government like stopping some fly by night operation on Amazon from selling 529 00:40:25,159 --> 00:40:30,960 them something to poison their kid. But you notice how like the Biden administration 530 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,840 seems like not very focused on like drugs coming through the border, but they're 531 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,320 like very focused on like ebs. Like that's a great example of like when 532 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:42,599 you just focus on the little things, I mean little in the sense of 533 00:40:42,639 --> 00:40:45,559 like scale not importance. Right, people don't want things to blow up. 534 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:50,519 They want the things in their house to be safe, and they want scammers 535 00:40:50,559 --> 00:40:57,039 to stop scamming. Right, They are far less interested in using government power 536 00:40:57,119 --> 00:41:02,599 to reshape America in the image of like San Francisco progress. That's so interesting. 537 00:41:02,639 --> 00:41:07,239 That's such an interesting perspective. Oh wait, Skinner, I just have 538 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:08,800 to thank you so much for kind of walking us through all this, because 539 00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:13,119 I'm always trying to wrap my head around it, and I think it was 540 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:15,679 it's just the scope of what's happened over the course the last couple of decades. 541 00:41:16,559 --> 00:41:22,079 It is hard to just track. So I just appreciate your perspective here. 542 00:41:22,039 --> 00:41:24,840 Yeah, I mean, if you haven't know a minute, I'll give 543 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:29,519 you another example of it. Please, how conservatives do better? So like 544 00:41:29,559 --> 00:41:31,000 when you go into government, the first thing you ask is like why are 545 00:41:31,039 --> 00:41:34,920 you here? And if people are like I wanted the people that I represent, 546 00:41:35,159 --> 00:41:37,800 which is how they should think about it to like have better lives. 547 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,559 That's that's really good. But like, let's use another example of like the 548 00:41:40,679 --> 00:41:45,519 environment. Right, the Biden administration seems far less focused on like clean air 549 00:41:45,559 --> 00:41:51,719 and clean water and very focused on like greenhouse gas emissions and climate change. 550 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,599 Right, But what's fascinating is those aren't the same thing. Right, Like 551 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:59,320 clean air and clean water is about like stopping somebody from dumping something in a 552 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:04,719 river, or from like running a factory that's like literally putting out heavy metals. 553 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:09,280 But climate change stuff that actually like you don't see carbon in the air, 554 00:42:09,559 --> 00:42:13,559 You don't in carbon dioxide in the air, Like you don't see it. 555 00:42:13,559 --> 00:42:15,519 It's not affecting your clean air, your clean water. It's like some 556 00:42:15,519 --> 00:42:20,239 sort of a global phenomenon, right, Like the air you breathe, in 557 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,280 the water you're drinking. Those are American problems. Climate change is like a 558 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:29,519 global thing, right, And yet bid the administration and the EUPA and all 559 00:42:29,599 --> 00:42:35,440 those people currently are entirely seemingly focused on climate change and not so focused on 560 00:42:35,559 --> 00:42:37,719 like clear and clean water, which goes back to like, most people just 561 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,239 care about clear and clean water. They don't want to look like China. 562 00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:45,159 They don't want they don't want the air to be like so visible that you 563 00:42:45,199 --> 00:42:47,639 can't even see your friend across your yard, and that's what they care about. 564 00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:52,000 So I just think every time we take over an agency, we should 565 00:42:52,039 --> 00:42:57,599 think about how does an everyday person interact with this agency, and how can 566 00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:00,239 we focus on the little things that are in there way? You know, 567 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:04,559 how can we focus on those kinds of things, because that, to me 568 00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:08,840 is just the biggest difference between conservatives running government and I mean actual conservatives, 569 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:14,000 Because there was these jokes that were always made about the the Bush administration was 570 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:15,719 that it was driving the car in the same direction as the Clinton administration, 571 00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:21,840 just in the lower gear. Perfect joke, But like, focus on little 572 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,719 things. So I'll use another example. When I was going around talking to 573 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:30,400 my solicitor general colleagues back many years ago we first started this dishwasher issue, 574 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,199 a couple of them were like, my boss is going to get laughed at 575 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,880 because this is too small ball of an issue, and I retorted with, 576 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:42,079 no, this might be the only thing people in your state know about your 577 00:43:42,119 --> 00:43:45,480 boss when he doesn't. Now we fast forward, and it's getting a lot 578 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:51,840 of attention because it is true that people, most people aren't consuming news about 579 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,480 government twenty four hours a day, but they're very aware of what's happening in 580 00:43:55,480 --> 00:44:00,639 their daily lives. Right, They're very aware that the cars are cost more, 581 00:44:00,079 --> 00:44:04,559 that the dishwasher costs more. Those are the issues, and so I 582 00:44:04,599 --> 00:44:07,920 just think that is the biggest difference between conservatives and liberals, and it's something 583 00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:14,400 that I think is is how we should think about the next general administration. 584 00:44:14,599 --> 00:44:17,679 And it's a way to turn the administrative state, because you can't go in 585 00:44:19,119 --> 00:44:21,679 I mean, have all the respect in the world for like mcmulbany and these 586 00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:23,199 people, but you can't go into the CPB and just basically ask them to 587 00:44:23,199 --> 00:44:30,559 go and like drink hemlock. Right, No, you can't, just can't. 588 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:35,639 Right, But like if you have some sort of a legal argument for 589 00:44:36,039 --> 00:44:39,079 ending an agency, like only the first one to sign up normally, right, 590 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:45,079 that's federal lock. Hemlock is y do. But it's legal, Yeah, 591 00:44:45,119 --> 00:44:49,320 do legal. But but what I really mean is when you go into 592 00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:52,719 an agency and tell them I don't think you should exist and therefore none of 593 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:59,960 you should really be here. That doesn't work. But when you go into 594 00:45:00,119 --> 00:45:04,079 like a consumer protection group and you say, I care about consumers, I 595 00:45:04,119 --> 00:45:07,119 care about every day people. I care about scammers. Let's go and focus 596 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:14,559 on fly by night people selling stuff on Amazon, people who are stealing products 597 00:45:14,559 --> 00:45:20,320 from stores and then repackaging it and selling like spoiled baby formula. We should 598 00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:24,239 focus on the people who are like scamming old people out of their retirement savings 599 00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:28,400 by promising to build the websites that we're never going to sell anything. I 600 00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,880 mean, these are all real things that I dealt with. Let's focus on 601 00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:32,760 those things. Now. Some of the staff are going to be like, 602 00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:36,920 WHOA, I didn't sign up here to like fight like scammers, And you're 603 00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:40,039 like, cool, that's fine, you can leave, But like the rest 604 00:45:40,039 --> 00:45:44,199 of us are going to go and fight scammers. You'd be amazed, Like 605 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:47,119 you start to split the administrative staff because a whole chunk of them are really 606 00:45:47,119 --> 00:45:50,639 there to help people, and then there's a chunk of them there there to 607 00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:55,079 like remake the world, and you know Elizabeth Warren's image, and you can 608 00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:59,679 use the first group to help people. Well, you've got to tell them 609 00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:04,119 where to up and where they should go is normally, let's work on making 610 00:46:04,159 --> 00:46:08,039 dishwashers better for people. Let's go and stop scammers. And that's smaller stuff, 611 00:46:08,039 --> 00:46:13,679 I mean, or at least the more like the more like domestic aspects. 612 00:46:14,159 --> 00:46:16,760 You can get those people marching in your direction because you've convinced them that 613 00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:21,559 you care about people and that you want them to help people, and that's 614 00:46:21,559 --> 00:46:24,039 the goal, Like in every federal agency should be that, because you can 615 00:46:24,039 --> 00:46:28,159 split the staff, like a chunk of them are on like club fed and 616 00:46:28,199 --> 00:46:30,920 they're working from home and they're not going to do any work anyway. But 617 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:35,679 like frankly, that's a separate problem because that also means they're not making Biden's 618 00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:38,119 life an easier. But like a chunk of them you can get to help 619 00:46:38,159 --> 00:46:43,239 you because you just convinced them that you actually want to do something. Club 620 00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,000 fed so good. That's a literal thing. Did you have You never heard 621 00:46:46,039 --> 00:46:49,920 that before? No, I haven't heard it before. And I'm ashamed because 622 00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:54,079 I've lived in DC forever and it's just the club fed island basically. Yeah, 623 00:46:54,119 --> 00:46:58,039 no, it's like they're on club fed. They like there's secretaries and 624 00:46:58,079 --> 00:47:00,840 these agencies that are on one hundred sent permanent work from home. Oh my 625 00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:04,760 gosh, like a bunch of these people, a bunch of these people. 626 00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:07,079 I'm not the best at this because my friends all worked in the in the 627 00:47:07,199 --> 00:47:09,239 from administration, know ifestor like some of them are allowed to flex their time, 628 00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:13,480 which means they only work four days a week, ten hour days, 629 00:47:13,639 --> 00:47:16,159 and then they're allowed to work from home like two of those days, and 630 00:47:16,199 --> 00:47:20,159 then there's so basically they just refer to a club bed. Like some of 631 00:47:20,199 --> 00:47:22,480 them their job is to be a secretary, but they only work from home. 632 00:47:22,599 --> 00:47:25,000 And then some of them only come to the office like two days a 633 00:47:25,039 --> 00:47:30,079 month. Because when you add up the flex time and this time and the 634 00:47:30,119 --> 00:47:32,639 work from home allowance, and they just call it clubbed. They're like they're 635 00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:37,320 here, but like they're not really here because they're literally at home doing whatever 636 00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:39,440 and we can't even know, we don't even know what they're doing. Yeah, 637 00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:43,039 and I know you like when you talk to people in DC that are 638 00:47:43,199 --> 00:47:45,239 kind of outside like the conservative bubble, it's amazing how many of them. 639 00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:46,880 Like, I talked to a guy. I'm not making this up. I 640 00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:51,599 mean he was inebriated, to be fair, but he worked for a federal 641 00:47:51,599 --> 00:47:55,760 agency and was telling us all about how he travels the world and you know, 642 00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:02,000 can wink wink work everywhere or anywhere, and it is just like astounding 643 00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:07,280 the There you go, look quite literally club fed. In that case. 644 00:48:07,639 --> 00:48:14,239 EXCI is the executive director of the Alliance for Consumers and you can go to 645 00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:17,199 Alliance for Consumers dot org to find more about their work. Thank you so 646 00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:20,840 much for joining us, really really appreciate it. Thanks a lot, and 647 00:48:21,199 --> 00:48:24,639 may days be numbered. Yes, amen, you've been listening to another edition 648 00:48:24,679 --> 00:48:28,840 of The Federalist or a radio hour. I'm Emily Tashinsky, culture editor here 649 00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:30,480 at The Federalist. We will be back soon with more. Until then, 650 00:48:30,599 --> 00:48:46,599 the lovers of freedom and anxious for the Fray