1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,519 And I think perhaps this is one of the reasons that the scriptures emphasize the 2 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:08,720 actual consumption of the book. That's right, that's at the point that he 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:12,000 takes the book and he eats it, so he makes it the inner. 4 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:17,480 It's not just an external reminder, but it ends up being something which then 5 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,960 is integrated and then brought into the heart. I mean, that makes so 6 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:26,640 much sense because that also explains in some ways what Christ is doing with the 7 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,480 entirety of the law, which is to say, you know, it's like, 8 00:00:29,559 --> 00:00:32,039 it's not that I'm getting rid of the law, folks, or is 9 00:00:32,079 --> 00:00:34,159 that I want you to eat the law. I want you to put it 10 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:38,039 inside you. It's inside you, then it's generative. But if it just 11 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:41,399 remains outside you, then it could be dead letter and a bunch of rules 12 00:00:41,399 --> 00:00:56,200 that don't make any sense. Yeah. Yeah, this is Jonathan Pegel. 13 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:11,439 Welcome to the symbolic world. So hello everyone, I am here with Seraphim 14 00:01:11,439 --> 00:01:15,760 Hamilton. Those who know my channel have seen him, but also in the 15 00:01:15,799 --> 00:01:22,680 circles around symbolism and Bible interpretations. Seraphim is Orthodox, and we're finding more 16 00:01:22,719 --> 00:01:26,760 and more that our ways of thinkings are kind of coming parallel to each other 17 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,599 and joining in different ways. So we thought we would today explore the role 18 00:01:30,879 --> 00:01:34,280 of the Bible, but not just the Bible, but the idea of the 19 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:38,760 book itself as an object that we see sometimes in icons with Christ holding a 20 00:01:38,799 --> 00:01:42,920 book, or the way that we have the book in liturgy. We possess 21 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:45,959 it, we kiss it, we do all these things with the actual physical 22 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:49,359 book. And what's the relationship between that the physical object, it's meaning, 23 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:55,120 it's participation in our liturgies and in our culture. And so Seraphim, thanks 24 00:01:55,159 --> 00:01:59,079 for joining me. Well, thanks for having me Jonathan. So what's your 25 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:01,680 first of all, it's art. What's your take on the role of the 26 00:02:01,719 --> 00:02:08,080 book in our liturgical practice? So the interesting thing about the scriptures, I 27 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:15,680 think, is that they're not just a medium for communicating information in sequence. 28 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:20,879 I think because we're so saturated by texts since the invention of the printing press, 29 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,759 and especially since the rise of newspapers and the internet just mass print culture 30 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:31,520 in general, we have started to lose focus on the book as an object 31 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:38,120 with its own kind of sacramental significance. So even in relatively recent history, 32 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,599 this wasn't totally lost. If you just think of the phenomenon of a family 33 00:02:40,719 --> 00:02:46,280 Bible. The family Bible functions as a kind of relic which passes from generation 34 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:51,840 to generation and expresses the character of the family. It's something which binds each 35 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:57,479 generation to it's the history which has preceded it. But today I feel like 36 00:02:58,199 --> 00:03:04,360 we come to the Bible and we treat it more as a text which is 37 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:08,960 meant to simply communicate information, so you can write it on print out paper 38 00:03:09,479 --> 00:03:16,879 and that's whatever. But in the liturgical Christian world, clearly the scriptures and 39 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:23,159 books more broadly play a more central and different role. In that you mentioned 40 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:27,479 that Christ is holding a book in most of the icons that we depict of 41 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,680 him. If you think of what the Orthodox liturgical world looks like when you 42 00:03:30,719 --> 00:03:36,159 go to the altar, you have the sacramental table where you have the Eucharist, 43 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,000 the body and Blood of Christ, next to the Gospel Book. And 44 00:03:39,039 --> 00:03:43,879 the Gospel Book isn't just something which is printed out on computer paper. It 45 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,960 is richly adorned with like anography and things like that. So it itself as 46 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:55,520 a physical object plays a key role in revealing to watch us the nature and 47 00:03:55,599 --> 00:04:01,719 the glory of Christ. And there's so many different things that follow out from 48 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:06,280 this, and I think when you go back to early Christianity, one of 49 00:04:06,319 --> 00:04:13,919 the most interesting things that you see is that Early Christianity was quite distinct from 50 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:20,639 the classical lid in a intelligible constellation of ways. And one of those ways 51 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:28,519 is the unique bookishness of the Early Church. This is something that Larry Hurtado 52 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:33,480 has done some really interesting work on. He points out that early Christians arguably 53 00:04:33,879 --> 00:04:39,720 seem to have been literate at a higher rate than their non Christian counterparts were. 54 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,720 And this is a really significant fact when you take into account that the 55 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,959 Early Church seems to have been a reasonable cross section of the Reco Roman society 56 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,759 within which it lived. So if you have let's just say ten percent of 57 00:04:50,759 --> 00:04:55,120 the society as merchants, you can expect ten percent of the Early Church to 58 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:58,639 be constituted by merchants. If you have let's say thirty percent of the society 59 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,160 is dirt poor, well, then of the Early Church is dirt poor. 60 00:05:01,519 --> 00:05:05,199 So one of the things that distinguished the Early Church as a society within a 61 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:11,000 society is its higher rate of literacy. And so what I want to suggest 62 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:17,120 is that this has a profound symbolic significance which can be explained in terms of 63 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:21,240 the map of biblical theology, the symbolism of text that we find in the 64 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:30,360 Bible, and it has an explanatory role in telling us why tradition looks the 65 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:32,920 way that it does, why we have such a thing as a tradition of 66 00:05:32,959 --> 00:05:38,319 the Church fathers, and so on and so forth. The textuality of the 67 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:41,279 early Church and of the Church more broadly is something we take for granted, 68 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:45,920 but I think it's a hugely significant fact. One of the things we see 69 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:53,480 is for sure, in the burgeoning Jewish identity after the detruction of Jerusalem, 70 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:58,639 the Torah seems to become the focus of the liturgy itself, you know, 71 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,480 as they lose the temple and as they lose the sacrificial system. Like if 72 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:06,480 you go to a synagogue today, the closest thing to the locus of sakra 73 00:06:08,399 --> 00:06:13,720 of sacredness, that say, in a synagogue is the I forget how they 74 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:17,480 go They called the tabernacle with the with the Torah inside that's you know, 75 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,920 handwritten and has a you know, is sometimes even covered with a kind of 76 00:06:21,959 --> 00:06:27,800 cloth to veil it. And so there seems to be a at least a 77 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:32,560 parallel between the manner in which the physical book itself functioned in the in Christianity 78 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,439 and how it ended up functioning Judaism. I don't know if you thought about 79 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:41,839 that well. I think that scholars will often talk about the difference between the 80 00:06:41,879 --> 00:06:45,720 Judaism prior to the destruction of the Temple and the Judaism which follows the destruction 81 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:49,279 of the Temple in terms of an increased significance of Torah study relative to the 82 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:53,319 Temple. So, the Temple was the place where heaven and earth are linked 83 00:06:53,319 --> 00:06:57,720 together. It is the center of the world since the entire creation is derivative 84 00:06:57,759 --> 00:07:00,199 from God's life and heaven. Because Heaven actually dwells in the Temple, that's 85 00:07:00,199 --> 00:07:04,519 where all creation flows out from. But with the destruction of the Temple and 86 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:10,120 the exile of the divine presence, it has suggested that Jews had to turn 87 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:15,160 to an alternative kind of spiritual or symbolic center. I don't think that's entirely 88 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:20,759 false, but I think there is a specific reason why the Torah is ready 89 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:25,639 made to take the place of the Temple. One of the things that we 90 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:30,120 find when we study the Torah is that it itself appears to be a kind 91 00:07:30,319 --> 00:07:36,639 of textual tabernacle. It is a place where the Divine name is woven into 92 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:41,879 every letter of the text. So let's just think about what the tabernacle and 93 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:46,600 the Temple fundamentally are. What the tabernacle and the Temple are. Is there 94 00:07:46,639 --> 00:07:50,759 a place where God's life, God's character, God's quality dwells with us. 95 00:07:50,839 --> 00:07:56,600 And because God's life, character, and quality is the principle for the existence 96 00:07:56,639 --> 00:08:01,279 of everything in creation, the indwelling of His presence with us in the Temple 97 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:07,920 constitutes a kind of exegesis of the nature of the world. It gives us 98 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:13,720 by giving us the Divine name, the names or meanings of all created things, 99 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:18,680 and that from the very beginning of the scriptures is never separated from the 100 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:24,959 medium of the physical text itself. So if we think of what is actually 101 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:28,519 put in the Holy of Holies, which is in the inner sanctuary of the 102 00:08:28,519 --> 00:08:31,159 Temple of Solomon, what is put in the Holy of Holies are texts. 103 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,919 So you have manna from heaven, you have the rod of error, and 104 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:39,879 you also have the Ten Commandments or the Ten Words. And then also there 105 00:08:39,879 --> 00:08:46,320 are various instances in the Biblical narrative where we read about a prophet or a 106 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:52,440 king depositing a sacred text within the boundaries of the temple or the ark of 107 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:56,559 the Covenant. So obviously the paradigmatic example of this is the Ten Words or 108 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,679 the Ten Commandments, which is physically engraved by the finger of God and does 109 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:05,720 manifest and communicates his presence. But also we read about Josiah when he's renovating 110 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:13,840 the temple, removing an entire copy of the Torah from the boundaries of the 111 00:09:13,879 --> 00:09:18,480 Temple, and this is something which carries significance in the Patristic tradition. So 112 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:22,639 in the Patristic tradition, the strictly canonical books of the Bible of the Old 113 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:26,519 Testament are those books which were found in the walls of the Temple. And 114 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:30,840 that is because the Temple is an ex of Jesus of all creation, because 115 00:09:30,879 --> 00:09:37,200 God's name dwells therein, and the Torah, the physical text itself, is 116 00:09:37,519 --> 00:09:41,039 the verbal exa Jesus of the meaning of God and of creation. So if 117 00:09:41,039 --> 00:09:43,720 you look at traditional Jewish ex Jesus of the Torah, and I think that 118 00:09:43,759 --> 00:09:48,399 this is a right way to look at things. I think that what they're 119 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:50,519 seeing in the text in many cases is really there. One of the most 120 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:58,879 significant practices that they pursue is looking at the numerical values of certain words. 121 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,559 So the divine name, the tetragrammaton the four letter name of God yadhey Vave, 122 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:11,440 has a numerical value of twenty six. And if you look at texts 123 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:18,320 where the divine name is an idea has a special significance. It is consistently 124 00:10:18,399 --> 00:10:22,759 presented in a number of words which is either twenty six itself or a multiple 125 00:10:22,879 --> 00:10:26,519 of twenty six. So that sounds to a lot of people really really kooky, 126 00:10:26,919 --> 00:10:30,960 and it's fine to be skeptical of it, just if you're hearing it 127 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:33,320 for the first time. But I would encourage folks to pursue this and detail 128 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:37,960 and look at the writings of guys like CJ. Labushing, who has looked 129 00:10:37,159 --> 00:10:43,000 at the actual values of the number of words and letters in passages of the 130 00:10:43,039 --> 00:10:46,720 Torah, and you find that twenty six really is woven through the whole thing. 131 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:52,159 And then when you consider that Deuteronomy twelve and other texts speak of God's 132 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:58,720 presence dwelling in the temple in terms of God's name dwelling in the temple, 133 00:10:58,399 --> 00:11:03,559 then the idea that the value of that name is woven through the text itself 134 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:09,919 has the significance of revealing the Torah and the Bible more broadly, as that 135 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:16,639 within which God's presence in some sense flows, And there's a whole myriad of 136 00:11:16,639 --> 00:11:20,519 implications that then can be cashed out from that, both in terms of biblical 137 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:24,759 exe Jesus, but also in terms of Christian theology of the word name and 138 00:11:24,799 --> 00:11:31,039 so on. And so one of the things that happened is in the Christian 139 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:33,639 I mean, I'm curious, because I'm not I have an idea about this, 140 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,320 but I'm not sure. One of the things that happened in the Christian 141 00:11:37,639 --> 00:11:41,360 century is the development of the book per se, you know, the movement 142 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:45,840 away from the scroll and the development of the book as an object, you 143 00:11:45,879 --> 00:11:48,519 know, and the move towards vellum as well, you know, to have 144 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:52,320 you sheep skins to create these books. And so I don't know if you 145 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,960 Because the way we represent Christ, especially the Pantocrats, are as the judge 146 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,240 of all things. We show him a book, you know, not a 147 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:05,919 scroll, although sometimes we show Christ showing the scroll, you know, in 148 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:09,279 his hand. In some of the icons. Do you see there's some kind 149 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:13,879 of meaning to the actual shape, like do you do you feel you see 150 00:12:13,879 --> 00:12:18,320 some movement in that direction. This is one of the things that Larry Hurtado 151 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:22,519 really focuses on, which is that the codex, which is a bound book 152 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:26,720 which resembles basically the shape of our modern book, while it exists in pre 153 00:12:26,799 --> 00:12:33,840 Christian times, it really was almost never used for actual texts. So essentially 154 00:12:33,919 --> 00:12:37,759 the codex was a medium for scratch paper. If you were taking notes in 155 00:12:37,799 --> 00:12:41,799 a class, you would use a codex. If you're writing a diary or 156 00:12:41,799 --> 00:12:46,120 something, or just writing your shopping list or the equivalent, in the ancient 157 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:50,799 world, you would use a codex. But it's Christians who pioneer the use 158 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:56,960 of the codex or bound book for the actual embedding of their sacred texts. 159 00:12:56,200 --> 00:13:01,639 And this is a really exciting and interesting point, just just to emphasize how 160 00:13:03,159 --> 00:13:07,120 sharp the difference is. You look at the second century. Most of the 161 00:13:07,159 --> 00:13:13,360 codices that are found in the second century are of Christian origin. Now, 162 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:18,759 in the second century, the early Church was still a tiny, tiny sect. 163 00:13:18,919 --> 00:13:20,399 It was only in the third century that it began to be a force 164 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:24,360 to be reckoned, with which the emperors really took notice of. But in 165 00:13:24,399 --> 00:13:28,039 the second century, it was quite a tiny sect, and the vast, 166 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,720 vast majority of texts that we have from the second century are pagan texts, 167 00:13:31,879 --> 00:13:37,720 but more than half of the codices that we find are Christian texts. This 168 00:13:37,879 --> 00:13:41,759 is also true across the Christian world. So even though the early Church was 169 00:13:41,879 --> 00:13:48,320 very small, it was very widely distributed across the Greco Roman world, and 170 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:54,840 the use of the codex as a medium for communicating sacred literature is found across 171 00:13:54,879 --> 00:14:01,159 the whole breadth of the Christian world. There are also other aspects to the 172 00:14:01,159 --> 00:14:09,559 physicality of the text which distinguish Christian literature from its pagan and sometimes Jewish counterparts. 173 00:14:09,759 --> 00:14:13,960 One of the features that we find in the Codex Coteses, especially of 174 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,519 the New Testament, is the use of this device called the nomena soakra. 175 00:14:18,039 --> 00:14:22,000 The nomen issacra obviously is Latin for sacred name, and what it describes is 176 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:28,840 this phenomenon. When you take a Christian manuscript of the New Testament, it's 177 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:33,960 almost always of the New Testament scriptural, you find that the scribe would abbreviate 178 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:39,960 divine names with like, you know, let's say icxc so, where the 179 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:46,559 New Testament says Jesus Christ Jesus Christos the scribe would simply replace that with ICXC. 180 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:50,200 We also find that the Christian scribes did the same thing for God and 181 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,039 for often the Holy Spirit as well, which tells you something about their theology 182 00:14:54,039 --> 00:14:58,240 of God, but it tells you something about the way that they conceived their 183 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:07,639 scribal project. So the physical text itself visibly expressed the distinctness of the early 184 00:15:07,759 --> 00:15:13,120 Church, both from the Old Covenant and from its broader Greco Roman context. 185 00:15:13,519 --> 00:15:18,759 So I think you can look legitimately at the course of covenant history in terms 186 00:15:18,799 --> 00:15:22,720 of the transformation of history from a covenant that is centered on the scroll to 187 00:15:22,799 --> 00:15:26,879 a covenant that is centered on the codex. There's a few things that the 188 00:15:26,919 --> 00:15:33,080 codex does which distinguishes it in terms of its practical use from the scroll. 189 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:37,519 The most important thing that the codex does is the codex allows you to store 190 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:43,399 more text on this single medium than you would on the scroll. So we 191 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,120 have books like in the Old Testament, the Book of Samuel, which really 192 00:15:46,159 --> 00:15:50,000 is one book with a single literary structure, but we have First and Second 193 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,799 Samuel because it had to be divided into two scrolls. By contrast, we 194 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:58,840 have codeses from the early Christian period, which are compilations of books, the 195 00:15:58,879 --> 00:16:02,879 whole set of the Letters of Paul, or the whole set of the Four 196 00:16:02,919 --> 00:16:07,360 Gospels and things like that. And what the Codex allowed the early Christian scribes 197 00:16:07,399 --> 00:16:11,320 to do was take the books of the New Testament and arrange them in a 198 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:18,320 particular order and present them on a wide scale for mass consumption. So true 199 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:22,399 mass consumption of literature really begins with the printing press. But I would suggest 200 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:26,559 that we see a foretaste of this from the beginning of the Christian era, 201 00:16:26,919 --> 00:16:33,240 because we read things like Saint John Christistom in the fourth and fifth centuries is 202 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:38,159 encouraging his audience, which is just composed of normal Christians. They're probably mostly 203 00:16:38,759 --> 00:16:42,399 not super poor, but also not super wealthy. He says things like, 204 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,559 you know, don't just believe what I say. Consult your scriptures. And 205 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:51,200 that's just a striking statement that someone in his age would make, because we 206 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:55,799 would assume that really nobody has copies of them. There are things that get 207 00:16:55,879 --> 00:17:02,159 said which suggest actually they were being widely studied and consumed, even in the 208 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:07,279 home, and that relates to the origin of the Codex. I think basically 209 00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:14,359 as scratch paper. The Codex originate as scratch paper for relatively normal people. 210 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:18,279 It doesn't originate as a medium for sacred literature. But the fact that the 211 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:23,839 Codex seems to take on in the early Church a uniquely sacred character indicates something 212 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:29,720 about the way in which the divine Word has been communicated to us in the 213 00:17:29,759 --> 00:17:32,400 New Covenant. So, in the Old Covenant, the only people who were 214 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:37,400 really scribes were the king and his courts, the aristocracy, and then of 215 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,079 course the priesthood, who was responsible for teaching the Word of God. In 216 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:45,680 the New Testament, Jesus says that you once called you slaves, but now 217 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:51,279 you're called children and friends, because I have told you everything. The incarnation 218 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:56,799 of the Word of God coincides with the revelation of everything that can be revealed 219 00:17:56,839 --> 00:18:03,039 concerning God, and I think symbolically that is related to the elevation of this 220 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:08,640 scratch paper to sacred literature, which then expands the range of people who have 221 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:14,880 access to the Word of God. So God becomes incarnate as a Jewish man 222 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,279 from this obscure little town from Nazareth, and in the process he elevates the 223 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:26,079 lowest form of physical writing to the unique medium for the scriptural text itself. 224 00:18:26,559 --> 00:18:32,079 Hmm. Yeah, that's an interesting that's definitely an interesting idea. And so 225 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:40,200 what do you see, For example, in the Orthodox tradition, we do 226 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:44,119 have liturgical use for text, like there is a sense in which the text 227 00:18:44,559 --> 00:18:49,799 is to be treated with respect. Generated you know, there's a procession in 228 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:56,920 order to bring the Gospel out during the Little Entry, and so how do 229 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,119 you see that, because it seems like in that case the text is standing 230 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,559 in for Jesus himself like that, Yeah, that we that we get that. 231 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,559 It's that that the text is standing in for Christ. Yeah. So 232 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:14,920 if we look at the little Entrance and we compare it to the to tell 233 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,160 people what the little entrance is because they probably don't they don't people might not 234 00:19:18,279 --> 00:19:22,480 know. Tell you, do you want to explain it like the two entrances? 235 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:26,759 Yeah? Yeah, So the Orthodox liturgy is divided, I would suggest 236 00:19:26,799 --> 00:19:30,920 into basically three parts. Uh. In the early part of the liturgy, 237 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,559 you have what's called the little Entrance, and that is where the priest who 238 00:19:33,599 --> 00:19:37,559 has been standing at the altar, he's been facing God, so all the 239 00:19:37,559 --> 00:19:41,759 people face in the same direction. The priest takes the Gospel book and he 240 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:47,000 comes out from behind the iconistats out to the people, and then he goes 241 00:19:47,079 --> 00:19:48,880 back up to the altar, and he holds up the Gospel book and he 242 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,559 says, wisdom, let us attend, and we say, come, let 243 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,400 us worship and fall down before Christ. And then he goes up and he 244 00:19:55,440 --> 00:20:00,599 approaches the altar. Now, in the earliest period, the little entrance was 245 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:06,200 actually the first time that the priest would approach the altar. During weekday services, 246 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:08,359 he would stand at some distance from the altar, but during the Sunday 247 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:14,640 liturgy, it was this moment in the service that he would actually approach that 248 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:19,799 physical altar. Now, the great entrance happens after the little entrance, and 249 00:20:19,839 --> 00:20:23,799 between the two, the priest or the deacon, usually if there is a 250 00:20:23,839 --> 00:20:27,480 deacon, will read the Gospel, so he will read the Word of God 251 00:20:27,519 --> 00:20:32,440 out to the people. There will be an exposition of the Word of God. 252 00:20:32,799 --> 00:20:37,000 And then very soon after that, after the exposition or sermon concludes, 253 00:20:37,279 --> 00:20:41,559 the priest will come out with attended by the deacons and the readers and the 254 00:20:41,599 --> 00:20:47,400 altar servers, basically attended by everybody who's serving with him and is going to 255 00:20:47,599 --> 00:20:52,440 carry the sacred elements of the Eucharus. So this is the bread and the 256 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:56,039 wine which is going to be transfigured into the body and blood of Christ. 257 00:20:56,319 --> 00:21:03,039 And as he approaches up towards the altar, he praised or commemorates a whole 258 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:07,079 variety of people, so the President of the United States, all civil authorities, 259 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:10,480 and then at the end of that he prays for people whose names are 260 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:14,920 written down on this special piece of paper where people can write their names down 261 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:22,000 to be interceded for. So these are two approaches up to the altar, 262 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:26,839 which is then set with the Gospel book on the one hand, and the 263 00:21:26,839 --> 00:21:30,920 eucharistic elements the bread and wine, on the other hand. And these two 264 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:36,359 approaches are different, but they're also closely analogous. This is the time in 265 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:40,200 the liturgy where the priest makes this same kind of motion, and it's highly 266 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:45,160 significant that on the one hand he's processing up with the Gospel book, which 267 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:49,960 contains the spoken words of Christ, and on the other hand he's processing upwards 268 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:56,279 with the element which actually physically are transfigured into the body and blood of Christ. 269 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,440 So, as you said, that suggests an analogy between the written text 270 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:06,559 of the Gospel, which is the words of Christ turned into pen strokes and 271 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:11,440 paper and the eucharistic elements. So the Eucharus of the body and blood of 272 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:17,359 Christ. In another sense, the Gospel is the body of Christ. So 273 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,559 you mentioned something which I think is very very interesting, and it's something that 274 00:22:19,599 --> 00:22:23,200 I think we often just allid over when we think about what texts are again 275 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,880 because we're so used to computer paper. But even computer paper is made out 276 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,359 of trees. It's just not as visible. Talk about sheep skin, right, 277 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:36,640 what are we receiving when we receive the Eucharist. Well, what Orthodox 278 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:40,960 and Catholics believe that we're receiving is we are receiving the body and blood of 279 00:22:41,079 --> 00:22:45,440 the Lamb of God. So we are actually taking that into ourselves. I 280 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:49,920 think it's quite significant just in the providential course of history that sheepskin is one 281 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:56,240 of the materials on which these physical texts are in great and you can talk 282 00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:00,359 about this in terms of other media for texts as well. Even computer paper 283 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,240 comes from trees. We are writing on trees. What we're receiving when we 284 00:23:04,279 --> 00:23:08,359 receive the Eucharist is we are receiving the fruit of the tree of life. 285 00:23:08,559 --> 00:23:14,759 This correspondence between things that we eat and things on which we write is a 286 00:23:14,839 --> 00:23:22,559 significant correspondence. And actually this analogy is drawn upon and developed in a variety 287 00:23:22,599 --> 00:23:29,200 of different contexts in the scriptures themselves. So in Ezekiel chapter three, the 288 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:33,640 prophet Ezekiel has just been called by God as a prophet, And what that 289 00:23:33,759 --> 00:23:37,279 means in the Old Testament context is he's been brought into God's courtroom, which 290 00:23:37,319 --> 00:23:41,720 is the temple. It's the palace in which God sits as king and dwells 291 00:23:41,759 --> 00:23:45,200 with his people as their king. He's been brought into that courtroom and he's 292 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:52,039 been made one of his court attendants and emissaries. So now Ezekiel has been 293 00:23:52,079 --> 00:23:56,839 invested with the particular authority and role of speaking out God's word to people. 294 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:02,519 When he speaks in these contexts, it is God speaking well. One of 295 00:24:02,559 --> 00:24:07,880 the first things that happens after Ezekiel is given that role is God gives him 296 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,559 a scroll and tells him to eat the scroll. He is able to actually 297 00:24:11,599 --> 00:24:15,680 eat the book and take it into himself. And it's because Ezekiel eats the 298 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:21,640 book and takes it into himself that then through the rest of the story he 299 00:24:21,759 --> 00:24:26,079 is able to speak it out to other people. Now that's a dynamic which 300 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,599 is not only present here, it is present in other context which are quite 301 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:34,279 explicitly Eucharistic in Revelation chapter ten, and Revelation has many, many connections with 302 00:24:34,279 --> 00:24:40,319 the Book of Ezekiel. In Revelation chapter ten, Saint John stands before the 303 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,759 Angel of the Lord. I would suggest that the figure in Revelation ten who 304 00:24:42,759 --> 00:24:47,880 has called another angel is actually Christ himself. That's a bit of a different 305 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,799 issue. But regardless of what you agree with me on that, the point 306 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,839 is clear that the Angel gives John this book and he tells him to eat 307 00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:03,559 it with the specific phrase take and eat. And we're told in Revelation as 308 00:25:03,559 --> 00:25:08,160 we hear in Ezekiel that the book was sweet as honey. A variety of 309 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:14,039 things are going on in this context using these particular words. Taken, eat 310 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:18,559 is the Eucharistic word of institution. This is how Jesus brings the Eucharist before 311 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:22,680 us in the first place. In the Johannian literature, John doesn't give us 312 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,680 an explicit narration of the institution of the Eucharist. He knows Matthew, Mark 313 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,759 and Luke have already done that. But what he does give give us is 314 00:25:30,799 --> 00:25:36,440 a myriad of images which express the mystery of the Eucharist to us. So 315 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,119 this is one of them. In Revelation chapter ten, take an eat, 316 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,119 and what's John eating? Well, he's eating the Word of God. Well, 317 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,640 especially in John's theology, what is the body of Christ? Well, 318 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:52,359 the body of Christ is the incarnate place of the Word of God. Christ 319 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:56,279 is the Logos through whom the world was made. He is the Logos who 320 00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:00,240 is expressed to us in the medium of writing scripture, is the Logos who 321 00:26:00,279 --> 00:26:06,880 is presented to us in physical, incarnate form in the Eucharist itself. And 322 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:11,400 then when we read that the words which John eats were sweet as honey, 323 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:18,599 well, that refers back to the taste of the manna in the Hebrew Bible. 324 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,799 While Israel was wandering in the wilderness, God gave them special bread from 325 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,480 heaven, which they called mana. And we're told in one text what this 326 00:26:26,559 --> 00:26:32,559 tasted like. It tasted kind of like wafers and honey in their mouths. 327 00:26:32,599 --> 00:26:37,200 So it's bread, but it also has this sweetness to it. And so 328 00:26:37,319 --> 00:26:41,240 when John and Ezekiel when they eat the book, it is being said to 329 00:26:41,279 --> 00:26:48,359 be like manna from heaven. And this is significant in terms of the character 330 00:26:48,079 --> 00:26:56,559 of this reference in Revelation, because Jesus in John's Gospel speaks of bread from 331 00:26:56,559 --> 00:27:03,039 heaven being his own body and blood. So we have an example here of 332 00:27:03,039 --> 00:27:07,480 the way in which Scripture is just interconnected with everything. Every passage in some 333 00:27:07,519 --> 00:27:11,559 sense is interconnected with every other passage. But there's a logic to it. 334 00:27:11,559 --> 00:27:15,759 It's not just schizophrenic madness. You see the way the images connect together. 335 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:21,400 You start to get, i think, a sense of the coherence of the 336 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:26,839 Bible in a way that really elucidates and a nests together with our Orthodox liturgical 337 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:30,759 I'd love to get your take on why, because I kind of have my 338 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,319 thoughts about that, but I'd like to get your take why the book is 339 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:38,680 sweet in the mouth but bitter in the stomach. Yeah. Yeah, So 340 00:27:40,799 --> 00:27:45,839 what happens after Revelation ten And there's multiple dimensions in which this question can be 341 00:27:45,839 --> 00:27:52,359 answered, But what happens after Revelation ten is John is going to prophesy concerning 342 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,440 nations and tongues and kindreds of people. So it's a similar thing to Ezekiel, 343 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,720 Right, So Ezekiel almost eats the word and then he prophesies. Well, 344 00:27:57,799 --> 00:28:02,599 John does the same thing to the Word, and he prophesied there's an 345 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:07,039 immediate sweetness to tasting of the Word of God. But at the same time 346 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,880 we are also told in the scriptures that we are only glorified by suffering. 347 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:15,680 And this is precisely what John sees in the visions which follow. The visions 348 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:21,720 which follow his consumption of the Word of God pertain to the destruction of Babylon 349 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:26,279 and the persecution of the Church. And I think we have another eucharistic connection 350 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,799 here which can more precisely give an answer to your question, because in Revelation 351 00:28:30,039 --> 00:28:37,319 chapter i think it's chapter fifteen, we have the Great harvest. We see 352 00:28:37,319 --> 00:28:41,599 the Son of Man sitting on his throne, and the Son of Man orders 353 00:28:41,759 --> 00:28:48,359 the people of God to be harvested out. And this is another eucharistic image 354 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:53,039 we see in Revelation. If you look at the structure of the temple, 355 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:59,359 which is disclosed in the early chapters of Revelation, it seems to be evident 356 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,720 that actually there's an implication that the table of showbread is missing its showbread. 357 00:29:03,759 --> 00:29:07,200 It's an argument James Jordan and Peter Lightheart have made in their work on Revelation 358 00:29:07,319 --> 00:29:15,200 and the kind of resolution of that discord comes in these later chapters of Revelation, 359 00:29:15,519 --> 00:29:19,839 where the eucharistic harvest of the people of God is what steps God's table. 360 00:29:21,119 --> 00:29:23,400 And again this is something which underscores the significance of what the eucharst is. 361 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:29,640 The Eucharist is about the body of Christ becoming our body as well. 362 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,559 That's why we have relics of saints under the altar on which we set the 363 00:29:33,599 --> 00:29:37,960 Eucharist. It's Christ's body, it's our body because we partake of Christ's body. 364 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,680 And so what John is seeing here is he's receiving the Eucharist. He's 365 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,480 receiving the Word of God. But the word which he receives is one about 366 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,920 the suffering and persecution of the Church and their glorification through immense pain. So 367 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,799 I think that's at least part of the answer. I don't, especially with 368 00:29:52,839 --> 00:29:59,160 something like Revelation, give a completely answer, because one of my intuition was 369 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:03,240 that it's related to the tay to the vinegar or the you know, the 370 00:30:03,279 --> 00:30:07,279 bitter wine, or the that Jesus drinks before dying, and so it does 371 00:30:07,319 --> 00:30:11,200 connect to what you're saying, but it also makes this strange. There's interesting 372 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:18,759 connections between the book that tastes like bread and then the the it that ends 373 00:30:18,839 --> 00:30:23,160 up tasting like being like wine or like the vinegar that that Christ drinks before 374 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:27,039 dying, and so related obviously the suffering and this image of of the bitter 375 00:30:27,119 --> 00:30:32,640 wine or the bitter waters that you see in the Old Testament. Yeah, 376 00:30:32,799 --> 00:30:36,480 I hadn't thought of that connection, but I think that's probably a major part 377 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:41,160 of what's going on here because in John's Gospel, I would suggest to viewers 378 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:45,279 that you can actually map out seven specific images of baptism in John's Gospel and 379 00:30:45,279 --> 00:30:48,759 seven specific images of the Eucharus, and I think one of those images in 380 00:30:48,839 --> 00:30:53,400 John is found in John nineteen where Jesus drinks of the vinegar on the bitter 381 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,440 cup. Yeah, definitely, all right, that's just that's super interesting. 382 00:30:56,839 --> 00:31:03,000 And so the the image that you see in the way that when Christ is 383 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:07,440 there with the book, A lot of people always think that this is the 384 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,000 Gospel, but I think the better understanding of that book is that it's the 385 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:15,799 book of Life that's described the relation because Christ is coming back to judge the 386 00:31:15,799 --> 00:31:19,359 world. You know, that's the image that we see. And so what 387 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,920 do you see as that mean as that meaning. What do you think that 388 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,519 that Book of Life is. You know, the idea of having your name 389 00:31:26,599 --> 00:31:30,240 written in the Book of Life and its relationship to the icon of Christ, 390 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,160 especially that Christ is holding that book. You know, he's blessing with his 391 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:38,799 right hand, He's holding this Book of Life in his left hand. You 392 00:31:38,799 --> 00:31:44,279 know, have you thought a bit about the meaning of that relationship. Yeah, 393 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:52,119 so I think that having your name written in the Book of Life pertains 394 00:31:52,279 --> 00:31:57,119 to the things that Jesus has already said in Revelation about to the wanting overcomes 395 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,079 one who conquers, I will give the name of my God, name of 396 00:32:01,079 --> 00:32:05,200 the Spirit of my God, and my own new name. And so we 397 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:09,920 are named with the name of Christ himself. And that theme of the name, 398 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:16,359 which endwells Christ, has a biblical context, going back to Genesis chapter 399 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:22,200 one. The idea of naming always relates to the notion of the logos. 400 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:23,960 So in the Old Testament, when Christ shows up, he shows up as 401 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:28,920 the Angel of the Lord. And the most explicit description that we have of 402 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,240 the character of the Angel of the lord's found an Exodus twenty three, where 403 00:32:31,279 --> 00:32:37,160 God says, my name is in him. A name is what expresses a 404 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:42,000 person's inner life. It's what expresses their character and who they are. Even 405 00:32:42,039 --> 00:32:46,119 think of something like the meaning of names, they usually cash out some kind 406 00:32:46,119 --> 00:32:52,200 of quality. We call someone faith because we're describing them with this adjective of 407 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:55,039 being faithful. Well, Christ's names are like that too, and the New 408 00:32:55,079 --> 00:33:00,599 Testament uses this phrase. We're baptized into the name of gen Jesus Christ, 409 00:33:00,599 --> 00:33:04,519 so his name is engraved on our heart. And I think what's going on 410 00:33:04,559 --> 00:33:07,359 in Revelation we hear about our name being written in the Book of Life is 411 00:33:07,359 --> 00:33:12,880 in the same word that God the Father says to Jesus by the spirit, 412 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,759 I love you because we are named in him, because we share in that. 413 00:33:17,319 --> 00:33:22,359 We share in that very same word which God speaks in relation to his 414 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,039 son. And that's what a book really is, right. A book is 415 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:30,920 a word that is given so that it might be read. And what we 416 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:35,000 see in Scripture is there's this promise of the New Covenant where God is going 417 00:33:35,039 --> 00:33:38,160 to write My law on your heart. I think we need to take that 418 00:33:38,319 --> 00:33:43,400 as meaning something more than by nature we will be inclined towards the good. 419 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,799 I think part of what's going on when we read about his law being written 420 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,519 on our heart. Is it's written on our heart in such a way that 421 00:33:50,559 --> 00:33:52,319 other people can read it so that they come to share in that name as 422 00:33:52,359 --> 00:33:55,599 well. So that's what I think is going on in the symbolism of the 423 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,720 book and being named with the name of Christ. I think the Book of 424 00:33:59,759 --> 00:34:01,480 Life in a sense has only one name in it, Jesus Christ, and 425 00:34:01,519 --> 00:34:06,839 we have that name engraved on our heart when we share in his life and 426 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,280 call upon the name of his father. Mm hmm. That's interesting. I 427 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,800 tend to see it. One of the things that I see in the icon 428 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:22,880 of Christ related to the book is there seems to be a relationship between that's 429 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:27,639 a direct influence and indirect influence. So when you see, because we don't 430 00:34:27,639 --> 00:34:30,199 have the Gospel of Christ, we have the four Gospels, right, there's 431 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:36,800 a sense in which there's a you know that hidden behind the book is Christ 432 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:38,880 himself. You know, the book is a kind of embodiment, but it 433 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:44,159 is multiple, right, It's not just like the warm body. And so 434 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:46,440 that is one of the ways that I tend to see the book is that 435 00:34:46,519 --> 00:34:52,440 as something like a Christ is blessing. So that's a direct influence, right, 436 00:34:52,519 --> 00:34:57,079 He's like he's speaking, he's saying, he's he's blessing, he's cursing, 437 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,159 and then in his left hand he holds the res result of that as 438 00:35:00,199 --> 00:35:05,079 the And you see that. The other thing that gave me that insight was 439 00:35:05,119 --> 00:35:08,239 actually the Icon of pentecost which is that in the Icon of Pentecosts, you 440 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:14,079 have the Holy Spirit from above descending onto the apostles, and then you have 441 00:35:14,119 --> 00:35:16,039 the apostles filled with the spirit, and then at the bottom of the icon 442 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:22,199 you have this strange figure of Cosmos that's holding scrolls, these twelve scrolls that 443 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,639 are like, I don't know, the twelve written teachings or the twelve contained 444 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:32,880 like final body for the teachings of this this spiritual So I see a form 445 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,159 of embodiment, you could say, see it that way, a form of 446 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:39,639 kind of making concrete. And so that's also one of the ways that I 447 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,320 that I kind of thought of the idea of the names in the book, 448 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,440 too, is the idea of you know, this final gathering, of the 449 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:52,280 final counting, the final counting of the things that are part of the of 450 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:57,079 the body. So you gather all these all the week, the chaff gets 451 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,000 gets get taken taken care of and the weed is gathered in the in the 452 00:36:01,559 --> 00:36:06,159 barn. And I have this this idea of also this gathering of the names 453 00:36:06,199 --> 00:36:09,199 in the book that are kind of like the final Virgin, like an image 454 00:36:09,199 --> 00:36:14,119 of the heavenly Jerusalem also as well, like this kind of final square, 455 00:36:14,599 --> 00:36:19,880 you know, revelation of the of the divine presence. Yeah, and so 456 00:36:20,039 --> 00:36:23,480 I've always thought that the shape of the book has to do with that, 457 00:36:23,599 --> 00:36:27,800 that it's not an accident that the book is a square kind of like the 458 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,159 arc of the Covenant or the Church itself, or you know, the heavenly 459 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:35,800 Jerusalem as this you know, as the final resting place, let's say, 460 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,480 of revelation something like that. Yeah, yeah, I think that's that's true. 461 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:44,000 And I think that connects with a lot of other things that books are 462 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,440 linked with in the Bible. So when you think about what it means for 463 00:36:46,559 --> 00:36:52,400 something to be perfectly holy, perfectly consecrated to God, we take the raw 464 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:54,280 material and it doesn't seem to have much order or structure. It's just a 465 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:59,079 rock. Its angles aren't really related to any to each other in any kind 466 00:36:59,079 --> 00:37:01,039 of visible or obvious way. Well, then you start working at the rock, 467 00:37:01,079 --> 00:37:05,840 you start turning it into a specific shape which corresponds to an idea or 468 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,360 a form, or you can even say a name. And when a thing 469 00:37:09,559 --> 00:37:15,320 is prepared, when it's shaped and made beautiful and correspond which with the logos 470 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,400 that you have in mind for it, then that thing is prepared to be 471 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:22,679 offered or consecrated to God in his sanctuary. It is prepared to come into 472 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:28,519 its own as the final form for which it was intended in the beginning. 473 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:36,159 And I think what we see in textuality in scripture is textuality comes into being 474 00:37:36,639 --> 00:37:39,559 when a thing has come into its own. So when a thing has become 475 00:37:39,599 --> 00:37:45,079 what it's meant to be, then it is written down or engraved. It 476 00:37:45,159 --> 00:37:51,920 is ready to be remembered by God because God now keeps that thing in mind 477 00:37:52,119 --> 00:37:55,840 according to what it truly is. So one of the examples of this dynamic 478 00:37:55,880 --> 00:38:00,199 and in scripture, you know, would be the story of the Art in 479 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,960 the Flood. So Noah takes the raw material of the world and the garden 480 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,519 of Eden, you just have a bunch of trees. But the next time 481 00:38:06,559 --> 00:38:07,960 you see wood being mentioned is in the story of the Flood, and the 482 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,760 word for word for tree is the same. Noah takes these trees and he 483 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,880 shapes them, and he molds them into a very precise form which corresponds to 484 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:20,639 the intention which God had in mind for it. And then that is the 485 00:38:20,639 --> 00:38:22,639 seed from which the whole world is reborn. So the only reason the world 486 00:38:22,639 --> 00:38:28,079 survives is because Noah with God, has made a miniature representation of a perfect 487 00:38:28,119 --> 00:38:30,320 world. And it's out of that perfect world that the Word is reborn. 488 00:38:30,559 --> 00:38:36,480 The world is reborn. And it is in Genesis eight one that you find 489 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,440 the turning point of the story, which is that God remembered Noah and those 490 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:44,599 who are with them. So God knew Noah to the core and then made 491 00:38:44,599 --> 00:38:47,119 a new world out of him. Well, that idea of memory is an 492 00:38:47,159 --> 00:38:52,159 idea which is connected to sacramentality in the church. Obviously, do this as 493 00:38:52,199 --> 00:38:54,920 my memorial, Do this in memory of me or memory eternal God, Remember 494 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,480 this person in your kingdom, because if you keep them in mind, then 495 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:02,480 they'll continue to exist as you know them. Well, books in scripture and 496 00:39:02,639 --> 00:39:07,480 just kind of intuitively are linked intimately with this notion of memorial. So in 497 00:39:07,519 --> 00:39:12,719 Exodus chapter seventeen, you see this Israel defeats the Amalekites and a curse is 498 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:15,840 placed in the Amalekites, which is going to last forever. And in order 499 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:20,960 to perpetuate that, God commands that these events be written down in a book, 500 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,719 and then that book is called a memorial. So the same terms are 501 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:30,159 used for sacraments pretending to bread and Passover and texts as well. And that's 502 00:39:30,159 --> 00:39:35,400 why I would suggest that you have these relics deposited in the Holy of Holies. 503 00:39:35,599 --> 00:39:38,920 The Holy of Holies is where God's eyes are always fixed. That's one 504 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:43,840 of the phrases that gets used about the temples, the place where God is 505 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,719 always looking, He's always paying attention to it. And in the Holy of 506 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:52,679 Holies you have these memorials of the events of the Exodus, which made Israeli 507 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,760 people in covenant with God. And that includes the texts that includes the Manna, 508 00:39:57,079 --> 00:40:00,639 so on and so forth, and so you put in the set sanctuary 509 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:06,400 those texts which represent the way that you want God to think of us, 510 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,000 right, so we want God to think of us in Christ, and so 511 00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:15,000 in the sanctuary you have the revelation of God, the logos in Christ. 512 00:40:15,119 --> 00:40:19,480 And I think that's the same kind of thing that we're seeing when we have 513 00:40:19,559 --> 00:40:23,039 a book of life with our name in it. Yeah, you can just 514 00:40:23,079 --> 00:40:29,239 see. The only other thing is is that occurs to me now is the 515 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:37,000 specific kind of imagery that appears in early Christian texts like the Nominasakra doesn't really 516 00:40:37,039 --> 00:40:39,199 save you much space. But what it does is it gives the physical book 517 00:40:39,599 --> 00:40:45,480 a specific look to it, and that look is part of the point, 518 00:40:45,039 --> 00:40:49,199 is part of what makes text not just kind of like an icon, but 519 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,559 I would suggest in certain sense an icon itself. Well one of the So 520 00:40:52,639 --> 00:40:59,079 this is interesting, what you're saying is interesting because there's also that always makes 521 00:40:59,119 --> 00:41:00,800 when we go to are in one direction, always makes my mind go in 522 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:05,360 the other direction. That's I'm trying to find counterexamples in my mind. But 523 00:41:06,119 --> 00:41:10,840 there's there's an interesting idea I think about, let's say, the manner in 524 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:17,800 which the possibility of the of the text being forgotten or not being or not 525 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:22,320 being connected right, the idea of what Saint Paul when he talks about the 526 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:28,159 dead letter and the problem of embodiment, and the problem that happens when the 527 00:41:28,199 --> 00:41:34,119 embodiment is no longer connected to the memory. So you know, the the 528 00:41:34,119 --> 00:41:37,199 the image to me of that is really the arc of the Covenant when it 529 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,599 goes among the what is the Amalekites or is the the Amalakites? I forget? 530 00:41:40,679 --> 00:41:44,639 When the Archite or is it the Philistines? Yeah? Yeah, when 531 00:41:44,679 --> 00:41:46,679 the ark of the company goes goes out into the Philistines, and it's no 532 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:52,400 longer connected to the Holy Place. And then in going out of the Holy 533 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:57,599 Place, then it becomes actually a becomes a space for death and curses and 534 00:41:57,599 --> 00:42:00,800 and uh and extra growth. You know, you can say it that way 535 00:42:00,199 --> 00:42:05,519 of parasites and extra growth, this kind of meaningless growth is a good way 536 00:42:05,519 --> 00:42:12,159 of thinking about it. And so there's always this way in which the the 537 00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:17,599 outer shell, right this the written text, and the way in which it 538 00:42:17,639 --> 00:42:23,000 can become a kind of fetish if it's not properly connected to the two. 539 00:42:23,079 --> 00:42:27,719 I know, you see that, right. You have the the what is 540 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:31,760 it hocus focus? You know, this idea of using the the holy the 541 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:36,880 holy words in order to create magic, or all these these types of of 542 00:42:37,119 --> 00:42:44,199 using the text also as talisman's you know, you have all these practices of 543 00:42:44,599 --> 00:42:46,320 you know, writing the word on a on a piece of paper and then 544 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:52,039 holding it in a talisman as a a kind of magical protection. It seems 545 00:42:52,039 --> 00:42:54,559 like all of that is also possible with the question of the book or the 546 00:42:54,639 --> 00:43:00,679 question of of texts. Yeah, especially you know if I because one of 547 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:07,280 the things that has been fascinating me is the Fedris. In Plato's Fedris has 548 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:12,119 this whole image about writing, about how writing is a supplement to meaning and 549 00:43:12,159 --> 00:43:16,599 how it's a memorial but it's also a forgetting or it makes it makes it 550 00:43:16,639 --> 00:43:21,880 so that the the law isn't written in your heart. Right, the law 551 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:23,320 has to be written in a book. It means that it's not written in 552 00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:29,280 your heart. So's there's a kind of supplementarity to writing, which can also 553 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:36,360 be dangerous once if the text or this outer thing is disconnected from its meaning 554 00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:38,480 and its purpose. Yeah, yeah, I think it's a really good point. 555 00:43:38,559 --> 00:43:40,679 I think you know, this is something that we see in all kind 556 00:43:40,679 --> 00:43:45,519 of theophanies in scripture. You know, a theophany can both fill you with 557 00:43:45,639 --> 00:43:51,000 words by which you praise God and it can also just knock you out so 558 00:43:51,079 --> 00:43:52,840 that you know you're just babbling. And you know, this is something you 559 00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:58,400 see in the story of King Saul. Right, King Saul, he is 560 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,440 overcome by the spirits and he speaks out praise to God. That's when he's 561 00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:06,440 at first Amuel ten. He's given another heart. And then after Kingsaul falls, 562 00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:08,079 the spirit comes upon him again and he falls on his face and he's 563 00:44:08,159 --> 00:44:12,000 rolling around, you know, he's literally and I think there's actually I'm not 564 00:44:12,039 --> 00:44:15,119 just being funny here. He's a holy roller, like the spirit. The 565 00:44:15,159 --> 00:44:17,960 spirit of God comes on Saul and he starts rolling around on the ground. 566 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:22,679 I mean there's something. Yeah, the tradition of how the tower babble fell 567 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,360 is that the spirit of God descended on it. That's what made it fall 568 00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:30,639 and made people babble. It's not like you know, so that's an interesting 569 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:34,440 that that duality is interesting to think about it definitely. Yeah. Yeah, 570 00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:36,360 it's a wind, you know that. And you find that in a lot 571 00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:38,880 of traditions, you know, the languages are dispersed when a great wind comes 572 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:44,440 and knocks over the tower the tree and the languages fall out. And it's 573 00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:46,559 interesting. Pentecost, of course it's the spirit and we hear about a great 574 00:44:46,679 --> 00:44:50,840 rushing wind, fire and so on and so forth there. And I think 575 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:55,000 perhaps this is one of the reasons that the scriptures emphasize the actual consumption of 576 00:44:55,039 --> 00:45:00,079 the book. That's right at the point that he takes the book and he 577 00:45:00,199 --> 00:45:04,199 eats it, so he makes it the inner. It's not just an external 578 00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:09,159 reminder, but it ends up being something which then is is integrated and then 579 00:45:09,199 --> 00:45:14,000 brought into the heart. I mean, that makes so much sense because that 580 00:45:14,119 --> 00:45:17,199 also explains in some ways what Christ is doing with the entirety of the law, 581 00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,440 which is to say, you know, it's like, it's not that 582 00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:22,079 I'm getting rid of the law, folks, or is that I want you 583 00:45:22,119 --> 00:45:24,679 to eat the law like that there you could see that I want you to 584 00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:29,599 put it inside you. It's inside you, then it's generative. But if 585 00:45:29,599 --> 00:45:31,800 it just remains outside you, then it could be dead letter and a bunch 586 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:36,119 of rules that don't make any sense. Yeah. Yeah, And this is 587 00:45:36,159 --> 00:45:39,480 actually I always suggest to folks so that this is a big part, if 588 00:45:39,519 --> 00:45:45,039 not the part of what the ritual law about only eating animals, which true 589 00:45:45,039 --> 00:45:49,800 the cut is about the torre uses this language about the Word of God is 590 00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,639 in your mouth and in your heart, and so you can only eat animals. 591 00:45:52,639 --> 00:45:57,480 We're always moving their mouthsy're always chewing it up, and they're swallowing it 592 00:45:57,519 --> 00:46:00,760 down and then bringing it back up, which is what you say and Ezekiel 593 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:02,800 and John and so on and so forth. And to be honest, I 594 00:46:04,039 --> 00:46:09,480 think that there's a lesson here in some of the ways that I think Catholic 595 00:46:09,519 --> 00:46:15,159 and Orthodox apologists can illegitimately invoke the Bible. It's kind of a talisman, 596 00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:19,039 like we gave you the Bible, but you know, you got to actually 597 00:46:19,079 --> 00:46:22,920 read it. You actually have to study it. You know it we gave 598 00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:25,880 you the Bible is not a good apologetic to Protestants if you've never you know, 599 00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,440 actually don't know it. Yeah, more than you do. It's like 600 00:46:30,519 --> 00:46:34,480 you have to. My brother uses the exact same image. He says, 601 00:46:34,519 --> 00:46:37,559 we have to ruminate, like that's the that's our job, you know. 602 00:46:37,639 --> 00:46:40,039 You you can't just it's not just the text. You have to let it 603 00:46:40,119 --> 00:46:45,280 sit and let it turn this kind of inner turning where that's when it yields 604 00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:51,159 fruit. Definitely, definitely, Yeah, Wow, this is really this is 605 00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:53,360 this is very this is very good here. I think it's a good place 606 00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:57,559 to stop, you know, like bringing the bringing the law into your heart 607 00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:02,840 is a good place to to go. And so where can people find your 608 00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:09,079 work? Yeah, so I am at YouTube dot com. Slash cabaine k 609 00:47:09,119 --> 00:47:12,760 A b A n e H. But you can also just find me by 610 00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:16,360 searching saraphrom Hamilton, which is my channel name. I try to produce videos 611 00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:21,880 relatively regularly. There's stuff that's being worked on right now that's going to be 612 00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:28,239 released soon. Also, I post five times a week. I had saraphrom 613 00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:32,519 Hamilton dot substack dot com. Half of those are just available for everyone. 614 00:47:34,119 --> 00:47:37,400 Half of those are available to those who sign up at five dollars a month, 615 00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:40,280 and you can a week five times a week. So lately, I 616 00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:44,920 mean full disclosure of the past month. I just had my first born, 617 00:47:45,119 --> 00:47:47,840 so I haven't lived up to the five times a week standard. But there's 618 00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:52,280 a lot of back uh backlog stuff there. And now what is it? 619 00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:54,760 Is it Bible commentary? What? What are what are your your your five 620 00:47:54,840 --> 00:48:00,440 posts a week? So most of it is Bible common Harry. A lot 621 00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:07,320 of it represents my kind of step by step work through Genesis one. So 622 00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:12,199 right now I'm writing a book on Genesis chapter one and the interconnections that it 623 00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:15,760 has with the whole rest of the Bible. Because the Bible was cumulative, 624 00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:22,880 the symbols that you see in revelation have been developed in a systematic way from 625 00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:28,199 Genesis. So when God speaks a word and the earth responds by producing fruit, 626 00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:32,360 trees and grain plants, that is why the prophets represent the union of 627 00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:37,119 God's word with creation in terms of an agricultural harvest that starts there. The 628 00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:42,360 gathering of Israel. Well, that language of gathering first appears in terms of 629 00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:45,320 the gathering of the disbursed waters. That was my last post, So this 630 00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:50,800 is an exploratory journey for me. I'm super excited to find all of this 631 00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,840 stuff in the text. So I post a lot on Genesis one, but 632 00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:59,039 also a lot of other biblical subjects. So yeah, everybody check it out. 633 00:48:59,119 --> 00:49:04,800 And June we'll probably see more of seraphim On on a Symbolic World YouTube 634 00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:08,119 channel as we as we kind of developed this discussion and collaboration. So Sefian, 635 00:49:08,159 --> 00:49:13,039 thanks for your work and people make sure to check his work out. 636 00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:14,440 Thank you so much.