WEBVTT 1 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:18.719 Hello, ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to another episode of Adventures and DeVos. 2 00:00:18.960 --> 00:00:22.879 Today. I am your acting host, Jonathan Hall, and I have with 3 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:27.719 me absolutely no one. So I'm going to do a solo show, or 4 00:00:27.719 --> 00:00:30.440 at least I'm going to try it will be an adventure. I hope you'll 5 00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:36.359 join me before the show. As I was staring at my screen trying to 6 00:00:36.399 --> 00:00:41.119 decide what I could talk to you about without anybody helping me, I decided 7 00:00:41.159 --> 00:00:44.799 I'm going to talk to you about getting a job. The new year is 8 00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:48.560 upon us. That means a lot of companies have new budgets, They've opened 9 00:00:48.600 --> 00:00:52.039 new positions. It's a great time for a lot of people to start looking 10 00:00:52.079 --> 00:00:56.000 for work, or to continue if you've already started. So I think it's 11 00:00:56.039 --> 00:01:00.200 a timely topic. Before I talk about some of my suggestions and advice on 12 00:01:00.280 --> 00:01:03.920 how you might go about getting a job, or more to the point, 13 00:01:03.159 --> 00:01:07.319 how you might interview for a job and what you might do in that regard, 14 00:01:07.840 --> 00:01:11.040 I want to talk about my background so you understand where I'm coming from 15 00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:15.879 and my sort of employment history a little bit. So I have spent most 16 00:01:15.879 --> 00:01:19.480 of my career as a software developer. Back in two thousand and six, 17 00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:25.079 I applied for a job as a network administrator. Actually, during the job 18 00:01:25.120 --> 00:01:27.079 interview, they gave me a whiteboard and a marker and they said, Jonathan, 19 00:01:27.159 --> 00:01:30.719 we just bought three news servers and we want to set up our spam 20 00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:37.680 email filtering service on these three servers to serve customers in the cloud. Sort 21 00:01:37.680 --> 00:01:40.560 of a sass, how would you do that? And so I drew some 22 00:01:40.599 --> 00:01:45.439 squiggly lines between these three boxes that represented servers, and I guess I liked 23 00:01:45.480 --> 00:01:47.560 it because I said, great, Jonathan, we want to hire you to 24 00:01:47.560 --> 00:01:52.079 come do that for us. So I joined this company as essentially an operations 25 00:01:52.120 --> 00:01:56.560 network engineer, but within a couple of months, the lead developer of the 26 00:01:56.599 --> 00:01:57.840 project. And it was a small team, there were two or three of 27 00:01:57.920 --> 00:02:01.879 us at the time. Lead developer left the company, so they were looking 28 00:02:01.920 --> 00:02:06.920 to replace him, of course, and while they were looking, of course, 29 00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:09.199 they still needed some work done. Customer requests came in or bugs needed 30 00:02:09.240 --> 00:02:13.280 to be fixed. So I was sort of filling the gap and helping with 31 00:02:13.319 --> 00:02:16.360 some of these requests for a while. So after a while of doing that, 32 00:02:16.439 --> 00:02:20.919 they decided I was doing a reasonable job and they didn't necessarily need to 33 00:02:20.919 --> 00:02:23.039 replace me. So they said, Jonathan, would you be willing to be 34 00:02:23.360 --> 00:02:28.680 our news software developer? And I agreed and we did hire some other help 35 00:02:28.719 --> 00:02:31.240 over time, but for a long time I was the lead developer on this 36 00:02:31.280 --> 00:02:38.599 project and also the lead networksh only network engineer on this project. So although 37 00:02:38.599 --> 00:02:42.840 my career has been mostly software development, it has been with a slant towards 38 00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:47.319 back end services, software deployment, network infrastructure, and all of these sorts 39 00:02:47.360 --> 00:02:51.439 of things, so very much what we would nowadays called DevOps, although that 40 00:02:51.520 --> 00:02:53.280 term didn't exist at the time. I worked at that company for close to 41 00:02:53.319 --> 00:02:58.879 ten years, and since then I've applied it a large number of other companies. 42 00:02:58.919 --> 00:03:01.680 I've interviewed it, probably several dozen. I've probably had at least one 43 00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:07.800 or two dozen job offers in the last say five years, because I liked 44 00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:09.199 you. When possible, have two or three offers on the table and then 45 00:03:09.240 --> 00:03:13.159 I can choose the best one. So that's a little bit about my experience 46 00:03:13.240 --> 00:03:15.599 as a software engineer as it relates to finding a job. I have also 47 00:03:15.639 --> 00:03:19.120 been on the other side of the table. I have been an engineering manager. 48 00:03:19.439 --> 00:03:22.479 I have hired, I have interviewed and hired a large number of developers 49 00:03:22.520 --> 00:03:27.879 for multiple companies, and so I also have my own style of interviewing candidates, 50 00:03:28.199 --> 00:03:30.039 and that definitely influences the things I'm going to be telling you today. 51 00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:36.080 So with that background in mind, let me talk a little bit about what 52 00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:40.039 I like to do to prepare for a job interview as a candidate. And 53 00:03:40.120 --> 00:03:44.879 actually, before I talk about what I do to prepare, let me tell 54 00:03:44.919 --> 00:03:49.039 you what I don't do to prepare. I see a lot of talk on 55 00:03:49.120 --> 00:03:54.080 LinkedIn, on social media book titles about essentially cramming for a job interview. 56 00:03:54.240 --> 00:04:00.759 Cramming is, of course, the idea of learning facts a memory, facts 57 00:04:00.759 --> 00:04:05.479 about something about say AWS, or about a programming language, or about network 58 00:04:05.560 --> 00:04:11.039 infrastructure or whatever the topic is. Learning these facts so that when they ask 59 00:04:11.080 --> 00:04:14.719 you a question, when they say, how do you do X on AWS, 60 00:04:14.840 --> 00:04:16.839 you can give them an answer, Or when they say how many bytes 61 00:04:17.480 --> 00:04:21.160 or how many bytes in a TCP header or something like that, you have 62 00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:25.040 an answer. I don't do that, and I don't think you should either. 63 00:04:25.160 --> 00:04:29.439 I don't think cramming for interviews is a good idea. And let me 64 00:04:29.519 --> 00:04:33.920 explain why. First, I believe that an interview is about it really is 65 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:38.360 about or should be about getting to know each other, the company getting to 66 00:04:38.399 --> 00:04:42.040 know you and you getting to know the company. And if you are reciting 67 00:04:42.120 --> 00:04:46.839 memorized facts, you're not giving an accurate representation of yourself. And I don't 68 00:04:46.879 --> 00:04:50.079 want to get hired based on a false representation of myself because that means that 69 00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:56.040 I will have unrealistic expectations on the job, and I'm setting my own self 70 00:04:56.120 --> 00:04:59.040 up for failure. So I don't want that. If I know an answer 71 00:04:59.040 --> 00:05:01.600 by heart, that's a different thing, because it's not a sort of false 72 00:05:01.759 --> 00:05:05.240 sense of who I am. If somebody asks me how many bites are in 73 00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:09.879 a TCP header and I actually know the answer because I've done TCP engineering for 74 00:05:09.920 --> 00:05:12.759 so long that I know the answer, then it's fine to give that answer. 75 00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:15.399 And by the way, I don't know the answer, but cramming that 76 00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:18.879 the idea of memorizing facts quickly for a short term recall, I think is 77 00:05:19.240 --> 00:05:24.279 a dishonest way. Maybe dishonest isn't the right answer, but it's not a 78 00:05:24.360 --> 00:05:28.120 genuine way of giving an interview, and it's setting yourself up for failure. 79 00:05:28.199 --> 00:05:30.240 That's the first reason I don't like this approach. Second, I think it's 80 00:05:30.279 --> 00:05:33.560 a terrible way to do an interview. It's terrible for the company doing the 81 00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:38.480 interview. So as a candidate, I don't really want to work for a 82 00:05:38.519 --> 00:05:42.720 company that does that style of interview because I'm likely to be working for a 83 00:05:42.759 --> 00:05:46.480 company that doesn't understand engineering correctly. And let me explain what I mean by 84 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:49.800 that. As a hiring manager or a development manager, a software development manager, 85 00:05:49.879 --> 00:05:55.240 or an engineering manager, I want to hire engineers who can solve problems. 86 00:05:55.399 --> 00:05:58.480 I don't want to hire engineers who have answers memorized. In fact, 87 00:05:58.560 --> 00:06:01.600 the memorized answers are usually the least valuable. I want an engineer who, 88 00:06:01.639 --> 00:06:04.680 when they're faced with a new problem they've never seen before, they know how 89 00:06:04.720 --> 00:06:08.399 to find an answer. Now. I don't care if they find the answer 90 00:06:08.519 --> 00:06:11.920 in their own head, if they invent something. I don't care if they 91 00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:14.839 go to Google. I don't care if they ask their grandmother. I don't 92 00:06:14.839 --> 00:06:16.199 care if they go to a meetup and talk about it over the weekend. 93 00:06:16.279 --> 00:06:18.839 I don't care how they get the answer. What I care about is that 94 00:06:18.920 --> 00:06:24.839 they can provide an answer to solve my business needs and canned trivia questions like 95 00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:29.560 how many bites in air tcpheader don't help solve those problems. So as a 96 00:06:29.600 --> 00:06:32.279 candidate, again, I avoid this sort of cramming approach because I think it's 97 00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:36.959 not genuine and it's also not useful, and so I don't want to work 98 00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:41.120 for companies that rely on that sort of interview process. So that's what I 99 00:06:41.160 --> 00:06:44.720 don't do. Let me talk about some things I do do when I'm preparing 100 00:06:44.759 --> 00:06:46.680 for an interview. I'm still talking about before I'm at the interview, right, 101 00:06:46.759 --> 00:06:48.959 one of the first things I will do is I will read up on 102 00:06:49.000 --> 00:06:53.879 the company. I think that's really important. Now there are times they're rare, 103 00:06:53.959 --> 00:06:57.000 but there are times when this is not practical. If you're interviewing at 104 00:06:57.040 --> 00:07:00.920 a stealth mode startup and they have no web site or the website is intentionally 105 00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:03.839 vague. And I've had this experience once. I once interviewed at a startup 106 00:07:03.839 --> 00:07:08.560 in this stage and I really knew nothing about what they did from the website. 107 00:07:08.600 --> 00:07:11.079 But that's okay. At least I looked at the website. So you 108 00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:14.519 want to look at their website and know enough that you can have a reasonably 109 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:17.519 intelligent conversation about the company during the interview. Of course, it's also good 110 00:07:17.519 --> 00:07:20.120 to know if you want to work in the industry and that type of company. 111 00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:25.199 If you have a particular industry and mind, or certain types of companies 112 00:07:25.240 --> 00:07:27.759 you don't want to work for, then this helps you solve that problem. 113 00:07:27.800 --> 00:07:30.680 But while you're investigating the companies, there's a few things you should definitely look 114 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:34.720 at. Spend ten fifteen minutes research in a company and learn what their core 115 00:07:34.759 --> 00:07:39.560 business is if possible. If you can't for whatever reason because the website doesn't 116 00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:42.480 tell you, then that's fine. But learn their core business. Are they 117 00:07:42.519 --> 00:07:46.199 selling to businesses? Are they selling to consumers? Do they sell physical goods 118 00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:49.160 like say Amazon? Do they sell services? Do they sell software? How 119 00:07:49.160 --> 00:07:53.120 do they make money? Or are they a nonprofit? Learn the high level 120 00:07:53.519 --> 00:07:56.680 information about what is their business model. You don't need to know all the 121 00:07:56.680 --> 00:07:59.600 details, but generally speaking, what do they do? It's good to know 122 00:07:59.639 --> 00:08:03.079 if they're publicly traded company or a privately held company. Are is there a 123 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:07.199 single owner or are the multiple stakehold shareholders. You know, things like this 124 00:08:07.240 --> 00:08:09.439 are good to know. They're not always essential, but that they're good to 125 00:08:09.480 --> 00:08:11.000 know. So just learn a little bit about the company. How big is 126 00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:15.800 the company? Is it is it five people, Is it a thousand people? 127 00:08:16.040 --> 00:08:18.439 Is it a worldwide company? And every country on the planet with thousands 128 00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:22.680 of people? Learn the high level stuff. And while you're doing this, 129 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:26.680 have some questions in mind. Take notes if you want to questions that you 130 00:08:26.720 --> 00:08:30.839 can ask during the interview. Every good interview will give you an opportunity to 131 00:08:30.839 --> 00:08:33.960 ask questions. It's really a two way street, right, It's not just 132 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:37.759 about you introducing yourself with the company. It's not an audition. It's a 133 00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:41.240 two way conversation. You're getting to learn to know each other. Think of 134 00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:43.679 it more like a date than like an audition. So you need to be 135 00:08:43.720 --> 00:08:46.519 asking questions of the company too. And if they don't give you time for 136 00:08:46.559 --> 00:08:48.879 that, ask for time for that. That could be one of the first 137 00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:50.320 things you say the interview, Well, I have time for questions, So 138 00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:54.120 have two or three good questions ready. I can tell you this honestly as 139 00:08:54.159 --> 00:08:58.799 somebody who has done many interviews as a hiring manager is it always makes a 140 00:08:58.799 --> 00:09:05.159 good impression when the candidate asks me questions. When I turned the interview around 141 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:07.960 at the end, you know there's thirty minutes twenty minutes left, and I 142 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:11.200 say, what questions do you have and the candidate looks at me and it's 143 00:09:11.240 --> 00:09:13.919 like, oh no, nothing really. That really leaves a bad impression. 144 00:09:13.000 --> 00:09:16.519 And honestly, I don't care what they ask as long as they ask something 145 00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:18.519 and as long as it's a meaningful question. So have questions ready to ask. 146 00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:22.279 And while you're researching the company is probably the best time to prepare some 147 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:26.080 of those questions. I'll talk about some more of those types of questions later, 148 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:28.960 but do it here. If you can't figure out who what their core 149 00:09:28.039 --> 00:09:33.440 business is, definitely ask that during the interview. Say I looked at your 150 00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:35.879 website for twenty minutes and I couldn't find an answer. Do you primarily sell 151 00:09:35.879 --> 00:09:39.399 them to end users or to businesses or whatever the question is. So get 152 00:09:39.519 --> 00:09:43.519 questions, have two or three questions at least ready when you go into the 153 00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:46.039 interview after researching the company. I like to have a list of certain standard 154 00:09:46.120 --> 00:09:50.679 questions ready. And these are questions that I could ask at any of any 155 00:09:50.679 --> 00:09:54.000 company. So if you forget to do the company research for some reason, 156 00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:56.840 or maybe it's a company you were already familiar with, so you skip that 157 00:09:56.879 --> 00:10:00.720 step, you could still fall back to some of these questions. So when 158 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:03.240 the interviewer says, what questions do you have? You can go straight to 159 00:10:03.279 --> 00:10:07.080 these and these are just standard questions that are usually appropriate at any company. 160 00:10:07.320 --> 00:10:11.080 Sometimes these questions do get answered naturally during the course of an interview, so 161 00:10:11.159 --> 00:10:13.720 you can skip the ones that have already been answered. But questions I like 162 00:10:13.759 --> 00:10:16.759 to ask things like what techstact does the company use. Do you use Java 163 00:10:16.840 --> 00:10:22.200 or She's c sharp? Are you a Microsoft shop or a Mac place whatever? 164 00:10:22.600 --> 00:10:26.159 Do you use Aws or Google? What project management or agile methodology do 165 00:10:26.159 --> 00:10:30.360 you use? Are you a scrum shop or do you use con bond or 166 00:10:30.399 --> 00:10:33.840 is it a mix your own and do whatever you want sort of place? 167 00:10:33.320 --> 00:10:37.120 Do you do agile? Do you do DevOps? Ask them what DevOps means 168 00:10:37.159 --> 00:10:43.480 to them? Because DevOps has so many meetings around the world, every company 169 00:10:43.559 --> 00:10:46.279 kind of has their own concept. Ask them what they think DevOps means. 170 00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:48.639 Ask them do they have DevOps engineers on each team or do they have a 171 00:10:48.679 --> 00:10:54.000 separate platform team? Ask them questions like this. What a question I like 172 00:10:54.080 --> 00:10:58.360 to ask is what's the main reason I should not work here? And that's 173 00:10:58.360 --> 00:11:03.080 a good way to get I a little bit of an honest response from whoever's 174 00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:05.960 interviewing you. Sometimes it's two or three people. If it is, ask 175 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:09.679 each of them to answer individually, what's the number one reason I should not 176 00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:13.159 work here? And I asked this at every interview when I'm a candidate, 177 00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:16.279 and I get good answers. So consider that one closely related to the list 178 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:20.879 of standard questions. I think it's really important to know your deal breakers before 179 00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:24.039 you go into an interview. It's good to be prepared with a list of 180 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:28.440 things that you absolutely want to have or need to have for your job. 181 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:33.360 This list often gets longer as you get older, and that's appropriate, but 182 00:11:33.399 --> 00:11:37.399 there probably are some obvious things on your list. No matter the stage of 183 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:41.039 your career. If you're fresh out of university or you've just taken a boot 184 00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:43.879 camp or something like that, and this is your first tech job, you're 185 00:11:43.879 --> 00:11:45.679 still going to have a list. It might be sure, but you'll have 186 00:11:45.679 --> 00:11:48.960 a list. An obvious thing would be something like what city is it in 187 00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:52.600 or is it remote? You probably don't want a sixteen hour commute every morning 188 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:54.600 to your job, so geography is going to be an important thing on your 189 00:11:54.639 --> 00:11:58.799 list. Are you willing to commute? Are you willing to relocate? If 190 00:11:58.840 --> 00:12:01.879 the job is sixteen hours away. That would obviously mean actually, you need 191 00:12:01.919 --> 00:12:05.000 to relocate. Are you willing to do that? Are you willing to pay 192 00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:09.240 for the relocation or do you need the company to give you a relocation bonus 193 00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:11.840 if that's what you're going to be doing. Do you need a four day 194 00:12:11.879 --> 00:12:13.600 schedule or a five day schedule or something like that. Maybe you need to 195 00:12:13.639 --> 00:12:18.120 take care of your children, maybe you are still studying. Know your schedule 196 00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:22.320 requirements. Maybe you're willing to work forty hours a week, but it needs 197 00:12:22.360 --> 00:12:24.000 to be on four days a week, you know, four ten hour days 198 00:12:24.039 --> 00:12:28.879 something like that. Know that ahead of time, and be prepared so it 199 00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:31.360 doesn't take you by surprise when they ask you and you're just like, yeah, 200 00:12:31.360 --> 00:12:33.200 okay, whatever, and then later you regret it. Knowing your deal 201 00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:37.360 breakers beforehand, putting them on paper, or at least having them in your 202 00:12:37.399 --> 00:12:43.200 head, is really valuable when it comes time to do negotiations and make an 203 00:12:43.240 --> 00:12:46.279 offer. Do you want a conference budget or a learning budget? Is that 204 00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:50.759 important to you? That usually becomes more important as your career advances. Many 205 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:52.919 companies offer that. Some will if you ask, I've used that as a 206 00:12:52.960 --> 00:12:56.600 negotiation technique. Maybe they can't give you a pay raise, but they can 207 00:12:56.639 --> 00:13:00.440 offer you an extra thousand dollars per year to go to conferences or something like 208 00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:03.559 that, and anything else you think of. Maybe you want a specific operating 209 00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:09.559 system on your laptop, maybe you want a monitor to maybe you're working from 210 00:13:09.559 --> 00:13:13.200 home and you want a big monitor from them, whatever, whatever is important 211 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:16.000 to you. Just have your list ready, and you can have a list 212 00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:18.360 of deal breakers and a list of nice to have, but bring those things 213 00:13:18.399 --> 00:13:22.039 up and ask about them. If there's an important deal breaker, be prepared 214 00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:24.320 to ask during the interview if that's going to be a problem for you. 215 00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:28.759 So that's basically my interview preparation. It's those fourth it's not cramming research. 216 00:13:28.799 --> 00:13:31.799 The company have a list of to innered questions and know my deal breakers. 217 00:13:31.799 --> 00:13:35.080 So that's kind of the all I do to prepare for an interview. Once 218 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:39.440 I'm at the interview at the first stage or so, that's when my mindset 219 00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:43.840 changes a little bit and I'm working on different things mentally. One of the 220 00:13:43.879 --> 00:13:48.159 things I'm looking for at that stage is how they do technical evaluations. In 221 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:54.279 my view, automated coding challenges are a complete waste of time. Whether it's 222 00:13:54.320 --> 00:13:58.320 hacker brank or leap code or anything like that. It simply does not test 223 00:13:58.759 --> 00:14:03.000 the things that matter on the job. It's high pressure, it makes people 224 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:07.960 nervous, and it's completely artificial environment. Nobody is going to ask you to 225 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:11.759 traverse a linked list on the job in thirty minutes. Nobody's ever going to 226 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:13.519 do that, I promise you. What they will ask you to do is 227 00:14:13.879 --> 00:14:18.840 solve a performance problem in production and do it as quickly as you can. 228 00:14:18.879 --> 00:14:22.200 If it takes thirty minutes or six weeks, do it. So I avoid 229 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:26.440 hacker rank style questions. If you're early in your career and you just need 230 00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:30.440 a job, maybe go ahead and do it. Not everybody's good at those 231 00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:33.600 tests. Actually I'm not very good at them. It's a lot more of 232 00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:37.240 a mental game than it is a capabilities test, really, So if you 233 00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:41.039 need to and you're good at it, go ahead. Otherwise I just skip 234 00:14:41.080 --> 00:14:46.000 those. I would tell the interviewing manager, I'm sorry, I don't do 235 00:14:46.039 --> 00:14:48.320 tests like that. Well. Actually, there's two options. At this stage 236 00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:52.279 of my career, when it's relatively easy for me to find new offers, 237 00:14:52.440 --> 00:14:56.200 a new new companies interview fat I just passed on those companies. So if 238 00:14:56.200 --> 00:14:58.679 they ask me to do a hacker rank or leak code, I just like 239 00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:01.200 withdraw my candidate to say immediately for the one thing, I don't really want 240 00:15:01.240 --> 00:15:05.960 to be working for a company that uses that as part of their screening because 241 00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:09.240 they're not doing a good job at screening. But if you're looking for if 242 00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:11.879 you really need a job, if you're either desperate or it's your first job, 243 00:15:11.080 --> 00:15:13.519 you can't be that picky, and that's fine. Ask if you could 244 00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:16.720 pass on it, and if not, maybe you do it, maybe you 245 00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:18.840 don't, but you make that call. I don't like those types of tests. 246 00:15:18.919 --> 00:15:22.360 I'm also not a big fan of the take home long term coding tests 247 00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:26.879 where they ask you to write a rest API or to build a small test 248 00:15:26.919 --> 00:15:30.480 app that does something. If you are faced with that, I do have 249 00:15:30.519 --> 00:15:33.399 some advice that might help, although it takes a little while to get there. 250 00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:37.600 I've been coding for many years and I have a couple of open source 251 00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:39.919 projects. One of them has something like three hundred stars on Kithub. So 252 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:43.879 what I usually do is when somebody asks me to do, whether it's hacker 253 00:15:43.960 --> 00:15:48.480 rank or a take home style coding assignment, I say thank you for offering 254 00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:50.240 offering me to do that, but I think it would be a better use 255 00:15:50.279 --> 00:15:54.279 of both our time if you would review this code that I've already written. 256 00:15:54.399 --> 00:15:58.039 It's much more extensive than anything that I could do in a half day project, 257 00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:00.279 and it gives you a real sense of the code I have written. 258 00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:03.919 And I have had many companies chick me up on that and say thank you, 259 00:16:04.120 --> 00:16:07.279 we'll review that instead. I've also had some say no, we really 260 00:16:07.320 --> 00:16:10.159 want you to do our coding challenge. If they say that, then you 261 00:16:10.200 --> 00:16:11.759 decide whether you want to do the coding challenge or not. If you don't 262 00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:15.080 have an open source project like that, and I'm guessing most of you don't, 263 00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:18.919 that's fine. It doesn't need to be like that. If you can 264 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:22.519 get some code from a previous job that you're legally allowed to share, you 265 00:16:22.519 --> 00:16:26.799 don't have an NDA or something to keep to you from sharing it. You 266 00:16:26.840 --> 00:16:30.600 could use that if you're in university, uses one of your coding assignments from 267 00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:34.360 university, put that on your GitHub, and point in potential employers to that. 268 00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:37.000 Next time you're asked to do a coding assignment, say I think it 269 00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:38.960 could be a better use of our time if you would review this code. 270 00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:41.720 I already wrote, would you consider that? If you don't have those options, 271 00:16:41.840 --> 00:16:45.559 you could easily do a coding katta. Codecutter dot com has a bunch 272 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:49.000 of katas, which are basically just little story problems, so to speak. 273 00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:52.559 They're kind of like a hacker Rank style challenge, but usually a little bit 274 00:16:52.600 --> 00:16:56.039 broader, and you do it on your own. Pick one or two that 275 00:16:56.080 --> 00:16:57.240 you like, turn them into some code and put them on GitHub, and 276 00:16:57.480 --> 00:17:00.840 point a recruiter or a high manager to that and ask if they would have 277 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:03.920 considered that as a last resort. If you simply don't have the time to 278 00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:07.680 do that, maybe you have a family, or you're too busy for whatever 279 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:10.720 reason. The next time somebody asks you to do a coding challenge, go 280 00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:14.400 ahead and do it, but keep that code and put it up on GitHub. 281 00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:18.200 And then the second time somebody asks you to do a coding challenge, 282 00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:21.359 point them to that and say, I've already written this code. Would you 283 00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:26.079 consider that instead? That will say that will potentially save you many hours of 284 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:30.880 unnecessary coding during your interview search or during your job search while you're interviewing, 285 00:17:30.920 --> 00:17:34.160 So I highly encourage you to do that. You have the option of deciding 286 00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:41.200 whether or not it's right for you to refuse to continue with the companies that 287 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:44.759 require a coding challenge. But at least you give them the option and you 288 00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:48.440 might save yourself for eight, ten, twelve hours of coding that isn't necessary 289 00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:52.920 if they're willing to look at some previously written code. During the interview, 290 00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:57.640 I will ask about whether or not or what sort of development environment they use. 291 00:17:57.720 --> 00:18:00.920 And what I mean by that is do they let me choose my own 292 00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:06.920 ide or do they have Maybe they already have a group license for a particular 293 00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:10.160 ID brand and that's that's what they have, and that's all. Maybe you 294 00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:11.559 care about operating system? Do you want to use? Are you a Windows 295 00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:15.720 user? Maybe you're a Mac user? Do you mind switching? If you're 296 00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:18.039 a Windows user and they give you a MacBook, is that going to bother 297 00:18:18.119 --> 00:18:19.720 you? If it does, if you're if you feel less productive, or 298 00:18:19.720 --> 00:18:22.000 you just don't like Mac for some reason, you can ask about that during 299 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:26.000 the interview and tell them that you really want Windows. Or if you're like 300 00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:29.319 me and you're a Linux user, then maybe it's even more of a contentious 301 00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:32.200 issue. But you know, I really want to work in Linux. I've 302 00:18:32.279 --> 00:18:34.640 I've used Windows in Mac and Linux, and I'm far more productive and Linux, 303 00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:37.720 So for me, that's the choice. But just just have that in 304 00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:40.519 mind what's important to you and ask about it. This is another one of 305 00:18:40.519 --> 00:18:42.480 the questions you can you can make one of your standard questions. Do I 306 00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:45.799 get to choose my operating system? Can I choose my ide? Can I 307 00:18:45.880 --> 00:18:48.960 choose the tools I use? Et cetera, et cetera. Maybe maybe they 308 00:18:49.079 --> 00:18:52.359 let you choose, but they won't pay for it, So ask about that. 309 00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:55.000 You know, if you want to use jet Brains, that's fine, 310 00:18:55.039 --> 00:18:56.799 but you have to buy your own license or something. Ask those questions if 311 00:18:56.799 --> 00:19:00.880 that's important to you. And one of the other things I really, I 312 00:19:00.920 --> 00:19:04.279 really it is a red flag for me during the interview is gotcha trivia type 313 00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:08.839 questions. I was actually in an interview just a year or two ago for 314 00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:14.880 a site reliability engineer role, and the CEO of the company actually asked me 315 00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:18.240 what is the RGB value for yellow? And my mind was blown, like 316 00:19:18.279 --> 00:19:22.680 why would you ask anybody this? Why would you even ask a web designer 317 00:19:22.759 --> 00:19:26.839 or a graphics designer this question. Maybe they know, but it's like there's 318 00:19:26.920 --> 00:19:29.960 there's color pickers and there's Google, just look it up. Nobody needs to 319 00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:33.279 memorize this. There's no reason. And aside from that, who's actually using 320 00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:36.480 pure yellow at a website? Anyway, You're gonna be using some shade. 321 00:19:36.519 --> 00:19:40.519 He also asked me the difference between xhtmail and htmail five, and a whole 322 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:44.480 slew of other ridiculous questions that just had nothing to do with the job at 323 00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:47.200 hand. I told him several times, I don't see how this relates, 324 00:19:47.240 --> 00:19:49.839 and at the end I just I withdrew my candidacy. I was like, 325 00:19:49.839 --> 00:19:52.880 I'm not going to work for this company. They don't know how engineering works. 326 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:56.720 They're asking ridiculous, unrelated questions. So I've talked about what I do 327 00:19:56.880 --> 00:20:00.400 to prepare for an interview and how oh I like to do the interview. 328 00:20:00.839 --> 00:20:04.200 Make sure that you have a chance to ask your questions. If they don't 329 00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:07.880 give it to you, ask for it. An easy way to do that 330 00:20:07.079 --> 00:20:11.440 is at the beginning of the interview, during the introductions, they're probably going 331 00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:14.759 to ask you to tell them about yourself. Say here's my history, by 332 00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:15.839 the way, while I have time for questions at the end. If they 333 00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:18.480 don't give you time for questions at the end, and your time is run 334 00:20:18.519 --> 00:20:22.240 out and they're pushing me out of the room. Maybe asked to follow up 335 00:20:22.279 --> 00:20:25.039 by email or if they can stay in extra five or ten minutes to ask 336 00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:27.440 your questions. But make sure you ask your questions. As a hiring manager, 337 00:20:27.720 --> 00:20:32.440 people who ask me questions are impressive. The ones who don't, I 338 00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:34.480 don't have a good opinion of them. So I think I have said enough. 339 00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:37.759 My throat is getting dry. I don't know what else I can talk 340 00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:41.319 about when I'm by myself, so I think we're going to call this an 341 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:47.720 episode. I guess it's time for picks, so I'll turn it over to 342 00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:51.440 myself to do picks. I'm going to pick. I'm going to promote myself. 343 00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:55.240 Since I'm drying my throat out talking today, I'm going to promote my 344 00:20:55.279 --> 00:20:57.440 own material and we're just going to call her to day. I have a 345 00:20:57.519 --> 00:21:03.200 daily mailing list where I talk about all things related to DevOps and software development. 346 00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:07.359 And I do talk about these topics about how to get a better job, 347 00:21:07.880 --> 00:21:11.119 how to interview, things like that. That comes up fairly frequently. 348 00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:15.240 If you're interested, you can go to Jhall dot io slash Daily. You 349 00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:18.960 can sign up for the list it's completely free. Occasionally I will promote a 350 00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:22.480 paid product on there that I do, but for the most part, it's 351 00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:26.039 just free information. I like to give back to the community, so you're 352 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:29.359 welcome to do that. I would also like to pick a YouTube channel that 353 00:21:29.480 --> 00:21:34.000 I think is helpful. It's geared more for software development, but really it's 354 00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:37.440 not even about the technical aspect of it, so it's really appropriate for anybody 355 00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:41.759 in tech. It's called Healthy Software Developer. The guy who runs a channel's 356 00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:47.119 name is Jamie Edwards. He's an experienced software engineer. He lives I think 357 00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:49.920 he lives in Texas, and he has a good YouTube channel with a lot 358 00:21:49.960 --> 00:21:57.000 of resources about approaching software development and IT culture and product management and all these 359 00:21:57.039 --> 00:22:00.319 things. All the sort of challenges and struggles we deal with. He addresses 360 00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:03.759 these on his channel, so we'll have links to both of those picks. 361 00:22:03.880 --> 00:22:07.519 Thank you for joining me this week. If you're looking for work, I 362 00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:11.039 wish you the best. I hope that this advice has been useful and we 363 00:22:11.079 --> 00:22:11.920 will see you next time.