WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:04.280 Hello, Welcome this episode of Superhero Ethics. Today we're talking about Shadow and 2 00:00:04.360 --> 00:00:08.560 Bones season two and all the great questions it raised with returning guest to Becky 3 00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:11.720 Allen. All that more after commercial break, we have no control of her. 4 00:00:21.320 --> 00:00:24.640 Welcome back from your host, Matthew. They then pronouns as I said, 5 00:00:24.679 --> 00:00:28.640 I'm joined by Becky Allen. Becky's someone who I first met through wis 6 00:00:28.760 --> 00:00:34.280 Con, which is a great collection of people who loved media. I want 7 00:00:34.320 --> 00:00:38.479 to look at it, especially through a feminist and kind of just interesting lenses. 8 00:00:38.920 --> 00:00:43.000 And Becky and Becky's been a Becky has been a returning guest on a 9 00:00:43.079 --> 00:00:46.759 number of topics, many Star Wars related, but also Shadow and Bone. 10 00:00:46.799 --> 00:00:49.159 And so now that season two is finished, I knew I wanted to get 11 00:00:49.159 --> 00:00:52.320 Becky back. So, Becky, if you want to introduce yourself and say 12 00:00:52.359 --> 00:00:57.759 hello him, I'm Becky Allen. I use both bay and she pronouns either's 13 00:00:57.799 --> 00:01:04.200 fine. I am a YA author who I've written some YA fantasy. I 14 00:01:04.239 --> 00:01:08.680 have read a fair amount of YA fantasy, and like anybody else who's read 15 00:01:08.959 --> 00:01:15.439 YA Fantasy in the last ten or so years, I love the Gracia Verse 16 00:01:15.560 --> 00:01:19.319 books, the Shadow and Bone are based on. They are amongst my very 17 00:01:19.359 --> 00:01:23.280 favorites, particularly the Crow's books, but I also enjoy the Elena and Nikolai 18 00:01:23.319 --> 00:01:30.680 books as well. And yeah, I'm really excited to revisit the show and 19 00:01:30.760 --> 00:01:34.400 talk about it with you. And I said this when we were discussing an 20 00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:38.319 email, but I promised to harp on the books slightly less this time than 21 00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:42.959 I last time, because I have not just reread all of them, which 22 00:01:42.959 --> 00:01:46.480 I had last time. But yeah, I'm really I'm really excited. I 23 00:01:46.480 --> 00:01:49.359 think there's a lot to talk about, and I really enjoyed the show. 24 00:01:49.159 --> 00:01:53.079 Awesome. Well let's just start there, so and I will just say, 25 00:01:53.120 --> 00:01:57.439 obviously huge boiler warnings, we're gonna spoil everything that's in season two of the 26 00:01:57.560 --> 00:02:02.680 TV show. We're going to also therefore talk about how the books portray those 27 00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:07.879 same events. In cases where the books are, you know, a little 28 00:02:07.919 --> 00:02:12.400 bit different, we may get into that where they're notably different, and they're 29 00:02:12.439 --> 00:02:16.800 sort of major plot points that may come up in later seasons. Because it's 30 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:20.400 pretty clear that this is drawing from the books. If I'm not in any 31 00:02:20.400 --> 00:02:23.599 particular order, we're going to avoid spoiling that. So if you've seen the 32 00:02:23.599 --> 00:02:27.199 show, but not read the books. We're hopefully not going to spoil you 33 00:02:27.240 --> 00:02:30.479 for anything yet, but just kind of putting that morning out there. And 34 00:02:30.520 --> 00:02:32.199 of course you can always hit pause, watch the show, and then come 35 00:02:32.199 --> 00:02:37.080 back. So Rebecca, let me just kind of start there. Give me 36 00:02:37.120 --> 00:02:38.240 your overall thoughts on the show. It sounds like you really liked it. 37 00:02:38.439 --> 00:02:40.479 What do you like about the show and what's kind of feeling on it. 38 00:02:42.120 --> 00:02:46.400 I liked it. I love all I love all of the characters. They're 39 00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:52.479 all my favorites, except that probably this season tomorrow Antolia, who are new 40 00:02:52.479 --> 00:02:55.120 in this season, are my very favorites. I don't know that we have 41 00:02:55.120 --> 00:02:59.280 a lot to talk about with them, but they are great. They are 42 00:02:59.400 --> 00:03:02.400 very fun and funny, and I really enjoyed them. They are if you 43 00:03:02.479 --> 00:03:06.879 like me and you remember characters but you don't remember names. They are the 44 00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:12.520 Shoe brother and sister who are with the dread air pirate Roberts I'm sorry from 45 00:03:12.639 --> 00:03:17.199 hand and who then become and he's flirting a little bit with Elena and she 46 00:03:17.319 --> 00:03:22.680 to ups a relationship with one of the other Grisha who's on the ship. 47 00:03:23.199 --> 00:03:25.719 Yeah, anyway, continuing very it's very nice to have Tamar, who is 48 00:03:27.159 --> 00:03:30.479 queer. She's a little bit on the butch side for TV, which does 49 00:03:30.520 --> 00:03:37.120 not show butch female characters very often, So that was something I really enjoyed. 50 00:03:37.159 --> 00:03:39.639 And she does have it's a very very minor thread, but she does 51 00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:44.719 get to have a nice little romance with one of the other grisha, which 52 00:03:44.719 --> 00:03:47.879 I really liked. And I just thought Tolia was really funny. Yeah, 53 00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:52.120 they're just they're both charming. I think that was one thing we talked about 54 00:03:52.159 --> 00:03:57.639 some one season one was that, and certainly there was some overall discussion about 55 00:03:57.680 --> 00:04:00.879 season one without One of the concerns was that you had a character who was 56 00:04:01.560 --> 00:04:05.400 you know, all, this isn't a fantasy nation, but it's pretty clear 57 00:04:05.479 --> 00:04:11.719 that Ravnika is a in a way that a lot of time fantasy is Great 58 00:04:11.759 --> 00:04:15.080 Britain to some extent, and that often you have a stand in for other 59 00:04:15.120 --> 00:04:20.199 related countries. Ravenika is basically Russia. Um they even you know that they 60 00:04:20.240 --> 00:04:25.759 call the ruler of the Tsar and the tsarevich as the prince, and um 61 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:29.920 Shoe is China. And there had been some conversation about that, some of 62 00:04:29.959 --> 00:04:34.399 the representation of Elena as someone from China, and some of the racism against 63 00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:39.079 her was not the best kind of Asian representation and the like, And so 64 00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:43.360 I did think like having those two characters as their own characters, UM really 65 00:04:43.360 --> 00:04:47.360 being somewhat developed, spending some time in Shoe itself, UM was definitely definitely 66 00:04:47.360 --> 00:04:50.240 a step up, although I can I think there are a couple of stereotypes 67 00:04:50.240 --> 00:04:53.759 that played into that I can understands some critique of, but we'll get into 68 00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:57.439 that in a bit. Yeah, UM, so I really enjoyed those UM. 69 00:04:57.480 --> 00:05:00.079 I will say it's not to talk about the books too much, but 70 00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:04.360 I will say they made a lot of different choices with Elena and Mal in 71 00:05:04.680 --> 00:05:09.439 the show that they did in the books, and I pretty much universally thought 72 00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:15.560 they were good. But I prefer Mal in the show to Mal in the 73 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:19.199 books, where he is kind of a sexy lamp. He doesn't really have 74 00:05:19.319 --> 00:05:25.480 much interiority or much going for him besides being the boy that Elena loves, 75 00:05:25.519 --> 00:05:28.879 and I'm okay with that. I think that's a perfectly serviceable thing for him 76 00:05:28.920 --> 00:05:31.959 to be in the books. But I think they made some very different choices 77 00:05:32.079 --> 00:05:38.240 in this show which made him a more interesting character. Yeah. Definitely. 78 00:05:38.639 --> 00:05:41.519 Well, let's actually use that to dive right into one of the things I 79 00:05:41.560 --> 00:05:43.920 wanted to talk about, because we have kind of a list of things. 80 00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:46.720 Probably bounced around a little bit, but you know, starting at the end 81 00:05:47.639 --> 00:05:51.399 a lot of this show, you know, season one, there was kind 82 00:05:51.439 --> 00:05:58.720 of a love triangle set up between Alena choosing between either Mal, who's sort 83 00:05:58.759 --> 00:06:01.240 of like the you know, the boy next door, good, dependable, 84 00:06:01.319 --> 00:06:05.560 if maybe a little dull, and of course dark, sexy, mysterious Darkling. 85 00:06:06.079 --> 00:06:10.360 And it was fun, it was nicely told, but it was about 86 00:06:10.360 --> 00:06:15.040 cliched. And when we introduced strom Hund, I'm producing that wrong, as 87 00:06:15.040 --> 00:06:20.560 I said, the dread air pirate Nikolai, Yeah, Prince Nikolai Zarovich Nikolai. 88 00:06:21.600 --> 00:06:25.120 Again, I was like, okay, he's a great character. He's 89 00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:29.000 probably my favorite character at this point except for Kaz. But I did think 90 00:06:29.000 --> 00:06:31.600 we were going to go a little bit you know, love trianglia again, 91 00:06:31.639 --> 00:06:39.079 if not love quadrangle with um Darkling still flirting with her. And I really 92 00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:42.040 liked the fact that they actually didn't go that way, that there was a 93 00:06:42.040 --> 00:06:46.079 little bit of rivalry between Mal and Nikolai, but it didn't it didn't go 94 00:06:46.120 --> 00:06:48.079 into a lot of the cliche places. They both respected each other a lot. 95 00:06:48.720 --> 00:06:54.439 And even when you get this kind of while she's gotta h you know, 96 00:06:54.879 --> 00:06:59.079 look like she's interested in Nikolai, they're doing that for plot reason, 97 00:06:59.160 --> 00:07:01.720 and it made some sense, and there was a lot of respect shown between 98 00:07:01.800 --> 00:07:06.480 Nikolai and Mal instead of it being oh Mal gets super jealous and then Nikolai's 99 00:07:06.519 --> 00:07:12.839 that are confront her comfort her and etcetc. Yeah, I think I think 100 00:07:12.839 --> 00:07:15.759 the show did a really good job of balancing it because it's clear throughout she 101 00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:20.240 is in love with Mal. There are no other contenders for her affection at 102 00:07:20.240 --> 00:07:24.560 this point, like that's who she wants to be with, and there are 103 00:07:24.720 --> 00:07:29.959 very good political reasons for her to marry Nikolai. And that's that's basically what 104 00:07:30.079 --> 00:07:32.439 he said. I said what he proposes. It's a literal proposal. He 105 00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:36.199 says, the best way for you to have the power that you need to 106 00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:40.360 make the change that you want to change is for you to marry me. 107 00:07:41.000 --> 00:07:43.279 We can do that. And I know that you're not going to be in 108 00:07:43.319 --> 00:07:46.399 love with me. I know you're probably still gonna be with Mal outside, 109 00:07:46.519 --> 00:07:51.199 which is not great for politics, but that is what it is. And 110 00:07:51.240 --> 00:07:55.519 so it's very upfront about the fact that it's not a like, oh, 111 00:07:55.639 --> 00:07:58.920 who is she going to fall in love with? It's yeah, does she 112 00:07:59.279 --> 00:08:03.360 make this cical choice which will certainly hurt Mal's feelings and cause a problem before 113 00:08:03.399 --> 00:08:07.879 their relationship, or is she going to just be with Mal, which will 114 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:11.639 make all of the political stuff that she's trying to achieve much harder. And 115 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:16.600 I thought that was a really interesting framing for it. Yeah, and even 116 00:08:16.680 --> 00:08:20.120 like at the very end of the season, Mal kind of has to go 117 00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:24.319 off and find himself, and we'll talk about that because I think that's also 118 00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:28.920 an interesting direction to take a romance in this kind of, you know, 119 00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:33.279 fantasy setting. And I think I think we're supposed to think that there's some 120 00:08:33.320 --> 00:08:41.000 possibility that while they're away, that that Elena might start to fall for Nikolai 121 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:45.559 a little bit. But even there, there was a wonderful line in the 122 00:08:45.639 --> 00:08:50.960 last episode where they're flirting a little bit about the upcoming coronation and he says 123 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:52.840 something like, you know, if you kiss me, I want it to 124 00:08:52.879 --> 00:08:54.960 be or if you're smiling at me, I want it. I want it 125 00:08:54.960 --> 00:08:58.360 to be because you're interested in me, not because you're trying to forget him, 126 00:09:00.120 --> 00:09:05.039 which, again, oft in that situation, the Nicolai character comes in 127 00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:07.799 very aggressively, and I think almost opportunistically to sort of say, well, 128 00:09:07.799 --> 00:09:11.080 oh no, don't think about them and think about me instead, And for 129 00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:15.559 Nicolaich to expressly name that and be like, no, I want you to 130 00:09:16.720 --> 00:09:20.840 figure out what you're doing with Mao, and only once that's resolved, if 131 00:09:20.879 --> 00:09:22.480 then there's a place for me, let's talk about it. It was, 132 00:09:22.519 --> 00:09:26.559 again, just a really nice shift away from that cliche. Yeah, and 133 00:09:26.600 --> 00:09:31.279 I think I think that's absolutely right, And I do think that basically the 134 00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:35.679 way Elena's love life plays out is that she has multiple people who are interested 135 00:09:35.720 --> 00:09:39.159 in her, but they've kind of dropped the idea that maybe it's a triangle 136 00:09:39.200 --> 00:09:41.919 and she's interested in one or the other. How she got to choose, 137 00:09:43.399 --> 00:09:46.360 She's made her choice. Her choice is very clear. So even though I 138 00:09:46.360 --> 00:09:52.480 think in the season the Darkling continues to be in love with her in a 139 00:09:52.600 --> 00:09:56.720 very stalkery way, and I think he does genuinely have feelings for her, 140 00:09:56.799 --> 00:10:01.679 but they are very toxic, possessive kind of feelings for her. She's no 141 00:10:01.799 --> 00:10:05.720 longer like, oh, that's intriguing, because it's not. She is in 142 00:10:05.799 --> 00:10:11.360 love with mel and Nikolay is very charming and charismatic and understands her and the 143 00:10:11.399 --> 00:10:15.440 moves she's trying to make and the things she's trying to do, and he 144 00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:20.320 also wants like they're very aligned on what they want politically for Ravka, and 145 00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:24.720 it makes a lot of sense that they would have an alliance and that that 146 00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:30.679 alliance would pretty much have to be a marriage. But they're both also very 147 00:10:30.679 --> 00:10:35.799 clear on who it is that she is actually in love with, and Nikolay 148 00:10:35.039 --> 00:10:41.039 being able to say like, Okay, if that changes, then we can 149 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:46.279 do something, but not pretending that it's going to change or that he's convincing 150 00:10:46.279 --> 00:10:48.000 her to change. I think that's a big part of why he was one 151 00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:52.039 of my favorite characters in this, And again it's the playing against cliche, 152 00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:56.840 because in stories like this, one of the things you quickly learn is that 153 00:10:56.879 --> 00:11:01.799 when someone seems too good to be true, they almost always are actually too 154 00:11:01.799 --> 00:11:05.480 good to be true. And here, you know, we originally meet him 155 00:11:05.639 --> 00:11:11.639 as the power behind the people who are paying the Crows to go get her, 156 00:11:11.080 --> 00:11:13.840 and now they're going to be angry at the Crows for not getting her, 157 00:11:15.320 --> 00:11:16.320 and oh, by the way, now he's a pirate. No, 158 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:18.799 no, no, he's a private tier. As we keep getting refracted, 159 00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:24.919 I should call him the dread private tier Nikolai. But um, you know, 160 00:11:24.960 --> 00:11:28.559 and then he but then he's actually really he's Tsarevich and he's charming. 161 00:11:28.759 --> 00:11:31.679 And I kept waiting for that other shoe to drop, and I was so 162 00:11:31.720 --> 00:11:35.360 glad it didn't. I was so glad that they just let him be actually 163 00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:39.679 someone who wants to be a good ruler and who is you know, he's 164 00:11:39.720 --> 00:11:43.120 a little bit scheming, he's a little bit doing what he thinks he needs 165 00:11:43.159 --> 00:11:46.399 to do to for what is right for his country and his power base. 166 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:50.600 But he never betrays anybody. He never has a like, oh you shouldn't 167 00:11:50.600 --> 00:11:54.919 have trusted me moment. He's just a good guy. And it's rare that 168 00:11:54.960 --> 00:11:58.720 we let a show like that, a show like this, just lets that 169 00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:13.639 happen. Yeah, I very much agree with that. I don't think I 170 00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:18.200 have a lot to add, but it is nice, and I think in 171 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:20.360 the books, again writing myself in, but you do see much more of 172 00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:26.639 a contrast between him and Vassilly, who's the older brother who is supposed to 173 00:12:26.679 --> 00:12:33.639 become the czar and is murdered very much because he was stupid, and that 174 00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:37.000 is a much quicker plot point in the book. It's in the show than 175 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:41.679 it is in the book, so you don't get as much of that contrast, 176 00:12:41.759 --> 00:12:45.120 but it is very much like, oh there has been this corrupt royal 177 00:12:45.159 --> 00:12:50.559 line. We know that their father, or at least Vasilli's father, it 178 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:58.080 was a rapist who had raped Jenya. And that's something which also gets a 179 00:12:58.120 --> 00:13:01.360 lot more weight in the books, just because to have more time to deal 180 00:13:01.399 --> 00:13:05.799 with it than in the show. But the fact that in the show Nikolai 181 00:13:05.799 --> 00:13:09.480 wouldn't is originally like, no, she she killed him, She's a traitor, 182 00:13:09.720 --> 00:13:13.159 right, And then it's like, oh, actually he was a rapist 183 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:16.960 who had been abusing her for a long time, and he's like, oh 184 00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:20.440 yeah, in that case, she's fine and he shouldn't have done that, 185 00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:26.039 and like correctly places the blame on his father and protects Jenya. Is another 186 00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:30.879 thing where I think that that shows he is actually a good person who wants 187 00:13:30.919 --> 00:13:35.080 good things, and it's very contrasted with much if you can go in that 188 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:39.600 direction, especially because I do think there's an aspect for Ravka because then she's 189 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:43.519 at such a point of transition and now and nikola I speak to very different 190 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:48.080 parts of her life, and I think I did actually read that that one 191 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:50.960 book, and I do think in some ways, both in the book but 192 00:13:50.039 --> 00:13:54.559 even in the show, I see where there could be potential with her and 193 00:13:54.679 --> 00:13:56.360 Nikolai. But yeah, I think it's very clear that right now, this 194 00:13:56.440 --> 00:14:01.000 is her choice is now, and so as you stay with that, because 195 00:14:01.039 --> 00:14:03.000 here's again where I think the book raises a really interesting question and kind of 196 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:11.039 plays with the thought of how love and romance is often presented, because one 197 00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:13.879 of the things we learned in this book is that there are all of these 198 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:20.639 ways in which Mal's connection to her seems like it is you know, it's 199 00:14:20.679 --> 00:14:24.279 not just like storybook romance, it is fairytale romance, and that it is 200 00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:28.799 fate. It is that you know that he kept finding orphanages that didn't that 201 00:14:28.879 --> 00:14:31.440 weren't right, and he kept running away and going to new ones, going 202 00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:35.480 further and further across the country until he got to where she was, and 203 00:14:35.559 --> 00:14:39.840 that he's always drawn to her and he always knows where she is, and 204 00:14:39.879 --> 00:14:46.159 that he quite literally is this last, you know, mythical beast that she 205 00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:48.919 has to take power from. And we get into all the ethics about that 206 00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:52.759 inched a second, and in a lot of books, it would just stop 207 00:14:52.840 --> 00:14:56.200 there and be like, look, we are the one true love. We 208 00:14:56.200 --> 00:14:58.799 were made for each other. It is fate that we fall in love. 209 00:15:01.080 --> 00:15:03.000 And then the really cool twist he goes, no, but wait a minute, 210 00:15:03.639 --> 00:15:07.720 does that mean I don't know if you actually love me or if this 211 00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:11.720 is just because we're faded? You know? He kind of is like, 212 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:16.440 how real are our feelings for each other if it is just fate? And 213 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:20.240 at the end of the book he basically needs to go off on his own 214 00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:24.759 and figure this out because he's not sure does he love her or is he 215 00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:28.440 just mystically connected to her and vice versa. Especially as someone who's written books 216 00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:31.799 and has written books they both do and don't have romance, and has read 217 00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:35.720 a lot of the genre, certainly I would curious your take on that because 218 00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:37.679 it seemed like, I'm sure not the only one, but it was a 219 00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:54.200 really injuring twist on the traditional like we are faded lovers. Yeah, it's 220 00:15:54.320 --> 00:16:00.200 definitely not standard, which I think is a really cool. Again, I 221 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:04.559 do think in the books it is much more standard, whereas the show takes 222 00:16:04.600 --> 00:16:08.600 it in a slightly different direction, And I may be misremembering where they end 223 00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:15.600 up in which book, because the season of the show does it combines two 224 00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:18.200 books about Elena and one book about the Crows, and so there's a lot 225 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:22.799 going on that moves very quickly, So I could be misremembering what happens when. 226 00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:30.120 But I think the show definitely adds a dimension to Mal by letting him 227 00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:36.519 make that choice. So again trying to figure out what makes sense to do 228 00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:44.039 the comparison on the discovering that Mal is literally a mythical creature, like the 229 00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:48.519 show, there are three mcguffins, and Elena got the first one, which 230 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:51.799 was a stag in the first season and in the first book, and then 231 00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:55.840 the second one is a ce monster, which she gets in the second book 232 00:16:55.879 --> 00:16:57.360 and early on in the second season of the show. And then the third 233 00:16:57.360 --> 00:17:00.639 one is supposed to be a fire bird, but it turns out it's not 234 00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:10.200 a firebird, it's Mal, And that revelation happens very late in the third 235 00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:14.680 book, which is the end of that story arc, and so there's not 236 00:17:15.039 --> 00:17:19.880 much of a sense of after do they figure out what it is that they 237 00:17:21.400 --> 00:17:23.720 mean to each other or what do they want to do, because after their 238 00:17:23.839 --> 00:17:29.119 story is kind of done in the books and the show has rearranged it so 239 00:17:29.160 --> 00:17:33.240 that this is assuming there's a third series, in which Netflix always a big 240 00:17:33.319 --> 00:17:37.480 question mark, which is I am concerned about because I would really like to 241 00:17:37.480 --> 00:17:41.319 see the third season of this show. But it does mean that this is 242 00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:47.079 something that that is outside of the realm of the Happily ever After that you 243 00:17:47.200 --> 00:17:52.759 get in their original you know why a fantasy trilogy, and I think that's 244 00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:56.920 when I was saying earlier, I think mal is much more interesting in the 245 00:17:56.039 --> 00:18:00.440 series than in the books. That's why I I'm really excited. Like the 246 00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:04.920 big twist at the end, as we said we were going to spoil everything, 247 00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:08.160 I just will. But like the big twist at the end where he 248 00:18:08.359 --> 00:18:11.799 is going to go and become a privateer and take over for Sturm Hand and 249 00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:17.759 it is very tread pirate Roberts. That's not in the books at all. 250 00:18:18.039 --> 00:18:22.039 That's not a thing that happens, and so like, I'm really excited to 251 00:18:22.039 --> 00:18:26.279 see a story which I don't know quite where it's going. I think it'll 252 00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:30.200 be really interesting. But I also think it's a really cool choice to have 253 00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:34.559 him say no, I'm gonna go find myself. And I also think that's 254 00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:41.279 a little bit of a gender reversal from the more traditional female character decides she 255 00:18:41.319 --> 00:18:42.680 has to go find herself, which is great, and I love as a 256 00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:47.319 trope like this is not shade on that trope, but you don't usually see 257 00:18:47.359 --> 00:18:51.039 that with a male character, because you don't usually see a male character whose 258 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:55.440 primary job is just to be a love interest. So I think it's a 259 00:18:55.519 --> 00:19:00.559 cool rehearsal for both of those reasons. And I think it's really an interesting 260 00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:08.359 dissection of like is this just fate or yeah? We especially gender thing. 261 00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:15.519 A lot of times in the love triangle, it is a woman choosing between 262 00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:21.319 two men, and generally part of the idea is that they are always falling 263 00:19:21.400 --> 00:19:26.039 over her and she has to decide which of them she's going to pick and 264 00:19:25.880 --> 00:19:29.440 and and sometimes it's a lot less empowered and sometimes that's more agency on her 265 00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:33.799 part um. But so they have her be to some extent rejected by him. 266 00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:37.279 I mean not in a like I don't want to be with you anymore, 267 00:19:37.640 --> 00:19:40.000 but that he is leaving her, that he is saying I don't know 268 00:19:40.039 --> 00:19:42.279 if we're going to be together, you know. I think it Also, 269 00:19:42.759 --> 00:19:53.519 I'll be really interesting to see where her character goes with that. Yeah. 270 00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:57.480 Yeah, I think in real world terms, it feels analogous to the couple 271 00:19:57.880 --> 00:20:00.799 who got together in high school and really love each other, but they're going 272 00:20:00.839 --> 00:20:07.519 to different colleges, and some couples stay together and get married down the line, 273 00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:11.839 and that's that's they want who they always wanted. But a lot of 274 00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:17.000 people break up, and I think it's it's giving them space to grow up 275 00:20:17.079 --> 00:20:21.000 in that way, which is not something that they did in that form in 276 00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:23.200 the books. And so it's a really different choice and a really interesting choice. 277 00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:27.039 At my college, we always used to refer to the week after October 278 00:20:27.079 --> 00:20:32.680 break freshman year as the Week of Tears, because that was the week when 279 00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:36.279 you've been at college for a couple of months, you go back home and 280 00:20:36.359 --> 00:20:41.519 everybody breaks up with our high school sweethearts. Yeah. We referred to it 281 00:20:41.559 --> 00:20:45.160 as the Turkey drop because it would be Thanksgiving when everybody's back in town and 282 00:20:45.480 --> 00:20:48.559 you, yeah, same same deal, everybody's back in town and they break 283 00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:52.880 up with their high school sweetheart. Yep, exactly. Um. There is, 284 00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:57.599 of course, the added complication to Elena's connection with Mao, which is 285 00:20:57.640 --> 00:21:02.960 that she killed him, Um, and he didn't come back from the dead, 286 00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:10.960 which the very statist there. They very fastidiously call him a firebird. 287 00:21:11.359 --> 00:21:15.519 They never say a word that begins with p and ends with phoenix or pe 288 00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:19.079 and begins with a phoenix. Anyway, you get the point. He's not 289 00:21:19.119 --> 00:21:22.920 a phoenix. He's a firebird. But he comes back from the dead and 290 00:21:23.480 --> 00:21:26.759 they do a cool thing where at first they think it's Nina and her magic, 291 00:21:26.839 --> 00:21:32.480 but she makes clear it's not her magic. Um. But before we 292 00:21:32.559 --> 00:21:37.400 know he's going to live, she's placed in this really hard situation. And 293 00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:40.160 I think here's another one of the really great ethical questions of the book, 294 00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:42.759 because a lot of it is it's not just him. It also starts with 295 00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:47.000 the what it's called the c spike? Was that the name of it? 296 00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:52.079 Um, No, you remember what the name was? The sea? Thank 297 00:21:52.119 --> 00:21:56.000 you? Where? And this goes back to the first season, and it's 298 00:21:56.000 --> 00:22:00.039 this idea of sort of like how much do you have power and magic versus 299 00:22:00.039 --> 00:22:04.400 how much do you take it? And how much is it okay to take 300 00:22:04.519 --> 00:22:10.440 magic by literally taking it from other living things, including killing them, And 301 00:22:10.519 --> 00:22:14.279 so the stag, one of the things in the first season is she's looking 302 00:22:14.279 --> 00:22:18.240 for a way to take the magic power without killing the stag, but alex 303 00:22:18.279 --> 00:22:22.400 still kills the stag. And then with the sea Whip, she wants to 304 00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:25.279 try and do this without killing the sea whip, but of course she's not 305 00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:30.759 able to, and the sea Whip points up getting killed. And so I 306 00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:33.480 think all that obviously is leading to this idea of will she kill now. 307 00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:38.839 I'd love to hear your thoughts on that as as kind of this overarching ethical 308 00:22:38.920 --> 00:22:45.079 question, because clearly alex is someone Alexander is someone who is very willing to 309 00:22:45.160 --> 00:22:48.119 harm others in order to take her power, and that that's kind of the 310 00:22:48.839 --> 00:22:52.119 you know, she doesn't want to be that, but it's the like, 311 00:22:52.279 --> 00:22:53.920 you know, how much can I do the dark side in order to fight 312 00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:56.839 the dark side? Because it's very much kind of a sith thing in that 313 00:22:56.880 --> 00:23:00.559 regard as well. What was your take on that whole question as it was 314 00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:03.359 raised and how they addressed it. Yeah, for me, I didn't go 315 00:23:03.400 --> 00:23:07.160 to a Star Wars place. I actually went to a Star Trek place. 316 00:23:07.160 --> 00:23:10.119 That it's very the needs of the many versus the needs of the one, 317 00:23:11.720 --> 00:23:15.640 and it's it's a little bit more complicated because it's Elena having to decide to 318 00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:21.319 sacrifice Mal as opposed to Elena sacrificing herself. But it really does come down 319 00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:25.200 to in order to deal with the Fold, which is, you know, 320 00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:29.160 the mcguffin thing that they've been trying to deal with for the whole series, 321 00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:37.119 and in order to defeat Alexander, they have to kill Mal And it's a 322 00:23:37.160 --> 00:23:42.160 tragedy in my mind, but it's not really a question like do you let 323 00:23:42.920 --> 00:23:48.160 the dark Lord come to power or don't you? And the answer is you 324 00:23:48.200 --> 00:23:52.640 don't, even if it requires sacrifice. And I think there does eventually reach 325 00:23:52.680 --> 00:23:56.759 a point of like how much sacrifice is too much and who gets to make 326 00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:02.720 that decision, which this is not quite raised to that level because like, 327 00:24:03.079 --> 00:24:07.480 eventually, if you're you know, slaughtering masses of people, you're doing the 328 00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:11.079 same thing he is, So what's the difference. But if you're talking about 329 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:15.839 it, it's a trolley problem to some extent of like, right, do 330 00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:21.839 I let untold hundreds or thousands of people get killed or do I let the 331 00:24:21.880 --> 00:24:26.079 one person who I love personally get killed? And it's it's not really a 332 00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:30.559 question when you think about it like that. It's a tragedy, but it's 333 00:24:30.119 --> 00:24:34.640 pretty clear cut in my mind. You unfortunately have to kill Mal right and 334 00:24:36.319 --> 00:24:41.680 I think a key part of this, which in some ways I think it 335 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:44.960 would be impossible to do it without this, but it would make the question 336 00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:51.920 a lot more complicated. Mal is perfectly happy volunteering for this, and in 337 00:24:51.960 --> 00:24:55.359 some ways I think that that's a bit of a that's a difference between neither 338 00:24:55.400 --> 00:24:57.839 the stag nor the sea whip. I mean, she doesn't really communicate with 339 00:24:57.839 --> 00:25:00.359 them the same way, and they're not. I think someone could say, 340 00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:03.799 oh, but they're not people, but no, they're They're clearly like beings 341 00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:10.640 with a lot of agency and life, and they're living creatures. In some 342 00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:15.519 ways, I feel like and contry to say this about spoiling anything. There 343 00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:21.079 is another TV show that was watched recently by many people which raises a similar 344 00:25:21.160 --> 00:25:26.400 question where the Mal character is never given the chance to have agency, and 345 00:25:26.519 --> 00:25:30.799 I think the fact that in this one Mao does, I think really helps 346 00:25:30.839 --> 00:25:34.359 to highlight how important that is, because I think like, like, if 347 00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:37.720 either Mao didn't know, like Mal was in a coma something, you know, 348 00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:41.200 whatever contrivance or Mal was against it, Mal was like no, I 349 00:25:41.240 --> 00:25:44.519 don't want to do that, find something else I don't want to die. 350 00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:52.640 How much do you think that changes the equation, if at all? That's 351 00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:57.599 a really good question. I think in the grand scheme you still wind up 352 00:25:59.240 --> 00:26:03.480 with the same conclusion of does this have to be done? Probably yes, 353 00:26:04.039 --> 00:26:08.920 but it does it basically, it makes Elena's hands much dirtier if it's not 354 00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:14.000 just a question of do I let this person who I love sacrifice himself and 355 00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:19.400 assist in that, or do I murder this person who I love right but 356 00:26:19.960 --> 00:26:25.839 has to die to prevent the greater tragedy? And so I think it makes 357 00:26:25.880 --> 00:26:30.839 things much more complicated for Elena and would make her much harder to forgive and 358 00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:36.839 much harder to root for, because murderer is bad. Yeah, but in 359 00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:41.519 this case, murder is not necessarily the worst option. Yeah. Yeah, 360 00:26:41.559 --> 00:26:42.680 I think that's a really good way to put it, and I think the 361 00:26:42.759 --> 00:26:47.279 show doesn't go that way, but it does do a different thing which they 362 00:26:47.359 --> 00:26:49.200 didn't really touch on. But I kind of wish they'd do more in if 363 00:26:49.279 --> 00:26:52.319 they if we get a season three, which again knock on Netflix, but 364 00:26:52.359 --> 00:26:59.319 I certainly hope so. Which is that because again, she was very she 365 00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:02.799 was hesitant to killing the stag. She didn't actually kill the stag if the 366 00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:07.240 dark thing did that. I don't remember exactly how the sea whip is killed, 367 00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:10.519 but I think to some extent she consents to it. But neither of 368 00:27:10.519 --> 00:27:15.079 those are creatures that she had this direct relationship with. And so you also 369 00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:18.279 sort of wonder, like, you know, if this wasn't the love of 370 00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:22.559 her life, if this was you know, random village boy, does she 371 00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:25.519 have the same compunctions about it? And also what questions is that raise? 372 00:27:25.599 --> 00:27:30.720 Because if then it's not are you not okay taking a single life versus are 373 00:27:30.759 --> 00:27:36.039 you not okay taking this particular life that is so much value to your life? 374 00:27:37.559 --> 00:27:41.000 Yeah, And I think I think that's what the show wants to lean 375 00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:44.240 into. I think because at the pacing of the show was so fast, 376 00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:48.599 they didn't really get to linger on that question, yeah, which they do 377 00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:52.440 more in the book. It's a bit more drawn out in terms of the 378 00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:59.359 like will she kill him? Yeah, she doesn't want to. I mean, 379 00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:02.680 I think there's well, so there's also the question of like Matt was 380 00:28:02.680 --> 00:28:06.960 a soldier, a random boy in a village is like, you know, 381 00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:10.960 not necessarily was not part of the conflict and did not ask to be part 382 00:28:10.960 --> 00:28:12.759 of the conflict. I don't think mal particularly asks you. It seems like, 383 00:28:12.839 --> 00:28:15.400 yeah, you're an orphan in rask I, you probably get drafted. 384 00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:22.119 Yeah, but at least have you know, training and understanding and knew what 385 00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:26.559 was happening and was really empowered to make that choice yes or no? Does 386 00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:30.200 he want to do this? Random person in a village probably doesn't, And 387 00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:34.519 so that to me also feels like a different form of do you murder a 388 00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:38.519 stranger? That feels a lot more sociopathic in some ways. Yeah, I 389 00:28:38.559 --> 00:28:41.480 think that's a really good way to put it. And it also I think 390 00:28:41.480 --> 00:28:48.279 it raises the like when you and I are discussing and it's funny. Again, 391 00:28:48.359 --> 00:28:52.200 not spoiling anything, but for those who know what I was referencing about 392 00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:55.039 the other series, they talked about this, this is a similar question that 393 00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:59.400 I've brought up and on my coverage of that story, it raises again, 394 00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:03.440 I think the question of the danger of sort of objective ethics, because you 395 00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:07.240 and I can sit here and say that yes, from kind of the objective 396 00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:11.680 standpoint, the idea of saving this entire country and all the people who are 397 00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:17.440 who are harmed and affected versus this one life seems like a fairly basic question. 398 00:29:18.440 --> 00:29:21.000 But that's because we don't. We're not connected to the one life or 399 00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:22.799 to all those many other lives. And then I think part of what the 400 00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:25.799 show is doing a great job of as for saying, like, yeah, 401 00:29:25.839 --> 00:29:29.640 that that person doesn't exist. There isn't anyone on high who can make that 402 00:29:29.720 --> 00:29:37.279 ethical decision. Everyone involved has their own subjective connections to the different pieces on 403 00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:45.759 the board that we're talking about. Yeah, so let's talk about the other 404 00:29:45.799 --> 00:29:48.839 side of this big decision, which is what do we do with the Darkling? 405 00:29:49.480 --> 00:29:52.359 Because you're right, I think for most of this show this season, 406 00:29:52.839 --> 00:29:57.240 she's not really tempted by the Darkling. They certainly give us a lot of 407 00:29:57.319 --> 00:30:00.799 scenes where I think a lot of the audiences supposed to be tempted because they 408 00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:07.079 figured out that the actor is incredibly attractive, and as it turns out, 409 00:30:07.240 --> 00:30:11.920 Heroine's being almost tempted in very seductive ways by evil men. That sells pretty 410 00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:17.400 darn well. And I've wanted to be Heroin liked that a few times myself, 411 00:30:17.440 --> 00:30:22.279 so I can understand why. But yeah, I like that in this 412 00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:26.720 story, she's not very tempted by it, and instead we get this really 413 00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:30.559 great sort of rejection of it him, especially at the end. What was 414 00:30:30.599 --> 00:30:37.240 your kind of feeling about how the Darkling story is wrapped up? I mean, 415 00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:40.880 it feels simplistic to say I liked it, but I did. So. 416 00:30:40.920 --> 00:30:47.960 It's another one that's difficult to talk about because the pacing was so fast 417 00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:51.759 again that I think that there there's some losing some of the interplay between them 418 00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:56.440 in the books is kind of a good thing, because the O am I 419 00:30:56.480 --> 00:31:00.920 tempted by him? Am I not? Who will I choose? This of 420 00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:04.880 it all goes on for much more of the books, and I think that 421 00:31:04.920 --> 00:31:15.480 cutting that off was a good thing. And comparing how how things wrap up 422 00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:21.200 here to how things wrap up in the book, it's a little bit difficult. 423 00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:22.400 This is one of the things which I don't want to talk about what 424 00:31:22.440 --> 00:31:26.839 the book does too much because they might use this in a future season, 425 00:31:26.359 --> 00:31:29.720 and I think it would be great to talk about on this show. I 426 00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:33.160 think you will really like it, and I was disappointed that they did not 427 00:31:33.359 --> 00:31:38.799 do it in the series. So it's really hard to cast sort of my 428 00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:45.960 feelings beyond that. But I do think like the rejection of the Darkling and 429 00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:49.920 everything he stands for is good. And I thought it was really interesting that 430 00:31:51.079 --> 00:31:56.960 his mother also had a just a flat out rejection of him. Yea, 431 00:31:56.200 --> 00:32:01.720 even though his mother is also object pretty terrible, like she's also a war 432 00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:08.599 criminal. She murdered people, many people. We get some backstory which is 433 00:32:09.160 --> 00:32:14.319 partially she was probably traumatized as a little kid, but partially she just kind 434 00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:19.440 of murdered some people, and that turns out to be a huge part of 435 00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:23.720 the backstory of everything that happens in the series. But even she after all 436 00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:28.519 of these years, it's like, oh, Alexander, I loved you, 437 00:32:28.920 --> 00:32:31.759 I tried to help you and it wasn't enough, and you have to die 438 00:32:31.799 --> 00:32:38.039 now, and makes no bones about it, in a very pragmatic and upfront 439 00:32:38.079 --> 00:32:43.359 way of saying you are wrong. The things you are doing are wrong, 440 00:32:43.839 --> 00:32:47.440 and even though I am also bad, I'm not that bad or I'm not 441 00:32:47.480 --> 00:32:51.680 bad in that way, and you need to be stopped, even though I 442 00:32:51.720 --> 00:32:57.599 love you. Like I thought that was Babar and his relationship to me was 443 00:32:57.680 --> 00:33:00.400 in some ways more interesting than his relationship shape with Elena, who he was 444 00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:04.119 just kind of obsessed with. Yeah, I think that's a really good way 445 00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:08.759 to put it. And at the very end, after she's claimed her power, 446 00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:13.880 after she's wiped out the fold, there's this great scene between her, 447 00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:19.400 between Elena and the Darkling, and he's sort of giving his one more pitch 448 00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:22.160 and he says, let me be your monster, you know where he's basically 449 00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:24.240 saying, like, all these people are gonna be against you, let me 450 00:33:24.279 --> 00:33:27.960 be the one who does the dark things for you. He's trying to sort 451 00:33:27.960 --> 00:33:32.119 of pitch his stuff in the most positive light possible. And she says, 452 00:33:32.799 --> 00:33:36.880 in one of my favorite lines, because this is it felt like so clearly 453 00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:42.960 a commentary on a lot of other recent stories we've gotten Kylo Ran, I'm 454 00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:45.000 a little bit looking at you, but a lot of other characters as well, 455 00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:52.200 she said. She says, I will save myself. Your legacy is 456 00:33:52.200 --> 00:33:55.680 already written for you. There is no redemption, and just stabs him in 457 00:33:55.720 --> 00:34:00.319 the belly while he's like not a threat, not attacking her, he's like 458 00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:05.039 pleading for his life and she's like, nope, I'm killing you. And 459 00:34:05.079 --> 00:34:08.639 then when she and just that line especially there is no redemption, was just 460 00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:13.159 you know, because we did get the sob story about his mother and we 461 00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:17.679 saw it way back when that all this kind of started because him and his 462 00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:22.559 partner at the time were being chased by the you know, an angry mob, 463 00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:27.159 and so there's reasons to sympathize for him. And so when he's like, 464 00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:30.480 no Elena, let me help you. I definitely had a like, 465 00:34:30.599 --> 00:34:32.559 are we going to get the redemption story now or are we going to get 466 00:34:32.599 --> 00:34:37.159 the He's going to help her and it's all going to be okay and so 467 00:34:37.639 --> 00:34:42.840 for her, and we even go so far as the first time she stabs 468 00:34:42.920 --> 00:34:45.800 him, one of the shadow creatures comes out of him and has to be 469 00:34:45.960 --> 00:34:49.440 killed, and she looks at him and says, oh, so you were 470 00:34:49.480 --> 00:34:52.519 never really in control of them, were you, which again could be seen 471 00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:57.519 as leading towards Oh, it wasn't really your fault. You played with dark 472 00:34:57.559 --> 00:35:00.679 magic, but the dark magic took you over. And then for her to 473 00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:04.000 say or she'd already said, but still the line applies. There is no 474 00:35:04.039 --> 00:35:08.360 redemption and she just stabs him again and he finally dies. I absolutely love 475 00:35:08.440 --> 00:35:16.239 that. Yeah, I think that that's a really powerful thing because he will 476 00:35:16.280 --> 00:35:22.559 continue to have power and followers as long as he is alive, because he 477 00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:29.559 does have a compelling point, which is that the Grisha are essentially an oppressed 478 00:35:29.599 --> 00:35:32.960 minority there you know, in the country next to Ravka up in Ferida, 479 00:35:34.159 --> 00:35:37.440 they're literally murdered as witches. There have been many times in Grisha history where 480 00:35:37.480 --> 00:35:44.519 they have been murdered by townspeople, like a lot of the Grisha saints were 481 00:35:45.400 --> 00:35:50.960 their saint hood was when they were killed by other people for being Grisha. 482 00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:57.119 So it's not like his points are completely without merit, but he takes we 483 00:35:57.280 --> 00:36:01.519 are an oppressed group and turns it into we should be the ones in charge 484 00:36:01.559 --> 00:36:06.000 because we are more powerful, and like a supremacist kind of way, which 485 00:36:06.039 --> 00:36:09.679 is no good, and he is fully willing to murder as many people as 486 00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:14.840 necessary to gain that power, and like that's what the fold is. He 487 00:36:15.320 --> 00:36:19.320 created it as a weapon, and that was dark magic, and it led 488 00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:22.440 to bad things that were unexpected. But then he continued to use it as 489 00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:25.159 a weapon. And when Alina is trying to dismantle it, like it's the 490 00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:29.079 whole arc of the first season, if she thinks they're going to get rid 491 00:36:29.079 --> 00:36:30.920 of it, he actually just wants to be able to control it, to 492 00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:36.199 use it as a weapon to maintain his power. And so that to me, 493 00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:42.119 like that makes it very clear that this may have come from trauma, 494 00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:45.800 and it may have come from having a valid point at some point, but 495 00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:50.800 it is no longer about I am trying to protect myself as a marginalized person 496 00:36:51.119 --> 00:36:53.639 and protect the other people in my community. It is very much about I 497 00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:58.159 am trying to seize personal power and will do whatever I have to to do 498 00:36:58.199 --> 00:37:01.280 that. And so they're kind of is no redemption from that. Those are 499 00:37:01.360 --> 00:37:07.440 choices that he made, and so like, how how do you regieme yourself 500 00:37:07.480 --> 00:37:09.599 from that? I would love to think it's possible, but I genuinely don't 501 00:37:09.880 --> 00:37:14.920 know how a character would do that. Magneto is rooting very hard for this 502 00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:17.719 character. He's it's very much that kind of a story of the you know, 503 00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:21.920 the oppressed group, but they have a lot of these powers and all 504 00:37:21.920 --> 00:37:25.360 this kind of stuff. Anything else we want to say about, Oh, 505 00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:30.280 just one other little commentary on that. It comes later after all of this, 506 00:37:30.360 --> 00:37:32.320 but I did think just to lampshade a little bit more of the point 507 00:37:32.360 --> 00:37:38.280 they're making. There's a point later in it where Nikolai has left the room 508 00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:44.320 after Elena's having her girl boss moment with the two other grisha we're spending time 509 00:37:44.360 --> 00:37:51.800 with her, Jenya and Zoya, and they're talking about Nikolai. But Zoya 510 00:37:51.880 --> 00:37:53.320 says in a kind of flirtatious way, oh, I could fix him, 511 00:37:53.800 --> 00:37:58.679 which felt like a very specific callback to how many people want to look like, 512 00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:00.679 you know, especially in the kind the fan fiction or just the other 513 00:38:00.719 --> 00:38:04.920 portrayals of this. You know, there's the old cliche of the people who 514 00:38:04.960 --> 00:38:07.920 will look at someone like the dark Thing and be like, oh, I 515 00:38:07.960 --> 00:38:09.519 mean, yes, he killed all those people, but he's just so pretty 516 00:38:09.559 --> 00:38:13.320 and I could fix him. I could make him good again. And I 517 00:38:13.360 --> 00:38:15.719 thought like the inclusion of that line was very intentional as a way of being 518 00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:22.519 like, yeah, we're not going down that road. M So just picture 519 00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:28.000 me holding up a big sign that says spoilers redacted for future books. Okay, 520 00:38:28.199 --> 00:38:32.920 that's fair, that's fair. We won't get into that then. But 521 00:38:34.079 --> 00:38:37.079 I mean, I do think it's a very like fandomy kind of thing that 522 00:38:37.239 --> 00:38:39.119 like, this is a work criminal. He's my little Miamia, and I 523 00:38:39.119 --> 00:38:44.199 can fix him, Like I think. I think that's the thing that the 524 00:38:44.239 --> 00:38:46.880 fans can enjoy. And I don't think that there's a problem with enjoying that 525 00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:53.280 as a fan. I do think in real life trying to make that defense 526 00:38:53.440 --> 00:38:59.639 of a genocidal maniac is bad. Yeah, but I don't care about it 527 00:38:59.679 --> 00:39:02.559 in fan fiction, fandom or loving violance on shows, go for it. 528 00:39:05.480 --> 00:39:12.159 I'm I mean, I have not checked AO three, but I'm going to 529 00:39:12.280 --> 00:39:19.159 guess that Darkling Elena has far more hits than Malalina because Malalina is just not 530 00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:22.119 very hot on screen, Like they're good for each other and they're just like 531 00:39:22.159 --> 00:39:25.920 they should wind up with each other. But Ben Barnes is really really sexy 532 00:39:25.960 --> 00:39:30.039 and really good at being seductive and evil. Well, and I think, 533 00:39:30.039 --> 00:39:34.360 I mean, I think in some ways like I say this for me because 534 00:39:34.639 --> 00:39:37.280 um, I feel feel bad, but Adam Driver did nothing for me. 535 00:39:37.719 --> 00:39:43.320 So I feel very much like Kylo Ren wants what the Darkling has. Yes, 536 00:39:44.920 --> 00:39:49.360 but it's but it's that same kind of like I'm evil but in a 537 00:39:49.400 --> 00:39:52.519 sexy way and I've murdered a lot of people. But isn't that intriguing to 538 00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:58.400 you the female protagonists and you the viewer of any gender, And it's like, 539 00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:02.480 yeah, sometimes that isn't dreaming all right? Look in terms of seductive 540 00:40:02.519 --> 00:40:08.079 but evil and bad boy, you can fix Adam Driver clears the Hayden Christiansen 541 00:40:08.159 --> 00:40:12.639 bar with so much room to clear, and granted it's a low bar, 542 00:40:12.840 --> 00:40:15.800 but but you're right. Note I think Ben Barnes is the top, and 543 00:40:15.800 --> 00:40:20.800 then Hayden Christians in a way below and then or no Adam Driver away below 544 00:40:20.840 --> 00:40:25.519 and then Hayden below that one other thing I'll say in romance, and then 545 00:40:25.559 --> 00:40:30.199 we'll get to the Kaz and the six of Crows of all, because honestly, 546 00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:32.400 that's my favorite part of the story. And I know I think you've 547 00:40:32.400 --> 00:40:39.039 said similar as well. I love unrequited romance stories and I love will they 548 00:40:39.039 --> 00:40:43.159 won't they stories, but I hate when they are overdone, and I hate 549 00:40:43.159 --> 00:40:47.360 when they're somewhat contrived. And so the fact that the the season ended with 550 00:40:47.480 --> 00:40:53.480 not one, not two, but three one true pairings that should be together 551 00:40:53.639 --> 00:40:59.199 all being a part the kas In Andez not being together. We're going to 552 00:40:59.280 --> 00:41:04.039 talk about. But like, I have a pardon from the king, but 553 00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:07.880 I got I dropped it on the ground, and okay that that was really 554 00:41:07.880 --> 00:41:10.360 stupid. It just felt so contrived. It just felt like so that she 555 00:41:10.400 --> 00:41:15.679 could hang out in the I can't be with my one true Love group with 556 00:41:15.800 --> 00:41:20.199 the other two. I hated it so much. So so I will say 557 00:41:20.480 --> 00:41:23.519 to their credit, and this does involve talking about the books, they are 558 00:41:23.599 --> 00:41:30.760 setting up for a really specific plotline from the books that requires Matthias to still 559 00:41:30.920 --> 00:41:35.480 be in prison. Okay, so they needed a way for like they need 560 00:41:35.960 --> 00:41:38.400 and as motivation had been getting this pardon, and so they needed a way 561 00:41:38.440 --> 00:41:44.000 for that to be her motivation but not work. I think the execution there 562 00:41:44.440 --> 00:41:51.239 was really like ridiculous, okay, because but because I know what's coming and 563 00:41:51.320 --> 00:41:54.280 I'm like gleeful about it, and I can't wait for you to experience it 564 00:41:54.519 --> 00:41:59.159 because I think you will. I think you will like. Okay, if 565 00:41:59.199 --> 00:42:01.360 the next season, if there is a next season and it does the plotline 566 00:42:01.400 --> 00:42:06.679 that I expected to from where all of the Dominoes are now waiting to be 567 00:42:06.800 --> 00:42:09.880 knocked down, I will really like it. And I think you will really 568 00:42:09.920 --> 00:42:14.599 like I think you're right. It's probably the execution, and it's also probably, 569 00:42:14.639 --> 00:42:16.800 as you said, this is a number of books all being combined into 570 00:42:16.840 --> 00:42:22.960 one. And so if we had all three of those love that almost get 571 00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:27.679 together but then has to break apart over three different books, that's one thing. 572 00:42:28.480 --> 00:42:31.639 But to have a Nez walk away from keV mal walk away from Elina, 573 00:42:31.800 --> 00:42:37.159 and Nina not be able to get to Matthias, all within fifteen minutes 574 00:42:37.159 --> 00:42:42.239 of each other, who got dumped the day before. They wrote this, 575 00:42:42.320 --> 00:42:45.679 because this is just someone who's like, no one can be happy, and 576 00:42:45.719 --> 00:42:50.320 I do think like comparing that to the books is interesting. So one thing 577 00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:52.719 that I will say, talking not about the books but about what they did, 578 00:42:52.840 --> 00:42:58.159 is they did a lot of picking and choosing because season one was book 579 00:42:58.199 --> 00:43:04.119 one with some crow stuff it in Season two is books two, three, 580 00:43:04.519 --> 00:43:12.480 and five, and it's setting up for books four and six, and so 581 00:43:12.800 --> 00:43:15.199 it's very so like some of these things don't happen in the books at all, 582 00:43:15.199 --> 00:43:17.679 Like that Malanalina thing does not happen in the books at all. So 583 00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:22.960 that's a really interesting choice. The Cas and I Nesh stuff happens at a 584 00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:29.159 completely different point, and the Matthias and Nina stuff is a setup at the 585 00:43:29.239 --> 00:43:32.679 very beginning for them. So it's a really like weird mishmash that I think 586 00:43:34.239 --> 00:43:36.960 does feel a lot like Who Got Dumped, But it also just feels like, 587 00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:39.119 oh, in our grab bag of plot points that we were putting together, 588 00:43:39.679 --> 00:43:45.599 whoops, we accidentally put three breakups from the completely different areas into one, 589 00:43:45.920 --> 00:43:46.880 so it's a little bit weird. I think that a lot of that 590 00:43:47.079 --> 00:43:52.639 is execution. I should also add that mixed in with those. In that 591 00:43:52.719 --> 00:43:57.920 same fifteen minutes, perhaps the most sympathetic character of all finds out that the 592 00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:00.840 love of her life just got killed. So it's like just romance is dying 593 00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:07.719 all over the in terms of David and January. Yeah, that's that's wrenching. 594 00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:12.199 Yeah, okay, But so let's talk about the Crows. Um, 595 00:44:12.280 --> 00:44:15.679 I just love Kaz, I love all of them, But but talk to 596 00:44:15.760 --> 00:44:19.960 me that you're feeling on the Crows and how they're portrayed here. Um, 597 00:44:20.320 --> 00:44:23.920 I like them. So the Crows are the best. I think that's pretty 598 00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:28.320 much universally agreed on. Like I am very much an Elena defense like when 599 00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:30.639 it comes to the books, at least, I am an Elena defender, 600 00:44:30.679 --> 00:44:34.320 But the Crows books are better. They just are, And I think the 601 00:44:34.360 --> 00:44:39.679 same is true in the show. The Crows are a more engaging and dynamic 602 00:44:39.840 --> 00:44:44.519 group. I think the Elena through line is a much more stand like they've 603 00:44:44.559 --> 00:44:46.920 subverted in some ways, but it's a much more standard, there's a chosen 604 00:44:46.960 --> 00:44:51.519 one Hiro and she has to save the world and defeat the bad guy, 605 00:44:51.559 --> 00:44:54.000 and you you know on broad strokes how that's going to play out, right, 606 00:44:54.079 --> 00:44:59.519 And it's fun to watch and I like it. The Crows are special, 607 00:44:59.639 --> 00:45:02.480 like they they just feel special. They feel unlike other things that happen 608 00:45:02.599 --> 00:45:07.880 in the genre that they're in. And they are a lot of fun personalities 609 00:45:07.880 --> 00:45:12.639 playing off each other. They do pull off the thing where it's like very 610 00:45:12.719 --> 00:45:16.960 dark and intense and broody and then also lighthearted and funny. They are fun 611 00:45:17.000 --> 00:45:21.199 to watch. It's fun to see them go on heist. It's fun to 612 00:45:21.239 --> 00:45:25.440 see all of the like reveals when Kaz's big plan suddenly comes to light and 613 00:45:25.519 --> 00:45:30.960 you realize that like Nina didn't betray them, like that was part of the 614 00:45:30.039 --> 00:45:35.719 plan. Like all that works so well and is so good that it's like 615 00:45:36.840 --> 00:45:40.440 you would watch just a Crows series. Yeah. I think that somewhere in 616 00:45:40.440 --> 00:45:45.559 the dictionary they should just cross out the entire definition that they have for the 617 00:45:45.599 --> 00:45:51.480 phrase ride or die and just have a picture of a knez and at one 618 00:45:51.559 --> 00:45:54.000 moment of like why are we doing this? Why are we doing this? 619 00:45:54.400 --> 00:45:59.920 He killed my brother Okay, let's kill him. Yeah, so or Beauty 620 00:46:00.159 --> 00:46:02.400 like in the first season, which she's like, she doesn't know if she 621 00:46:02.480 --> 00:46:07.480 can kill because it's against her religion, and she's really genuinely conflicted about it. 622 00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:12.599 And then in the second season she finds out when Kaz was a kid, 623 00:46:12.639 --> 00:46:16.719 this is his dark backs, his big secret everything. When he was 624 00:46:16.760 --> 00:46:22.320 a kid, somebody took advantage of him and his older brother, and his 625 00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:28.880 older brother was killed. And he tells Ane that and her immediately there's no 626 00:46:29.159 --> 00:46:31.119 morality, there's no I need to talk to the Saints about this. I 627 00:46:31.159 --> 00:46:35.159 need to reconcile the you know what we're going to do with what my heart 628 00:46:35.159 --> 00:46:37.760 says is right? There's just flat out then we destroy him. Yeah, 629 00:46:37.800 --> 00:46:44.039 and it's so great, is right? Or die Suity Well, and he 630 00:46:44.239 --> 00:46:50.639 is very much the same for her. He has is sacrificed a great deal 631 00:46:50.679 --> 00:46:55.199 of like his personal fortune and his personal stakes to be able to keep her 632 00:46:55.400 --> 00:47:00.440 from being sold back into slavery essentially. And one thing that I love and 633 00:47:00.440 --> 00:47:05.719 I think this is often the mark of a really like compassionate character is when 634 00:47:05.760 --> 00:47:08.800 they can observe the pain of one person and want to fix it, but 635 00:47:08.840 --> 00:47:13.119 then instead of being like cool, I saved you were done, be like 636 00:47:13.159 --> 00:47:15.639 now I want to save others. And so it's just a throwaway line. 637 00:47:16.119 --> 00:47:20.519 But in that last episode when he's back in the Crow's Club and is clearly 638 00:47:20.559 --> 00:47:24.199 doing really well and he sends an offer to the brothel where he basically says 639 00:47:24.239 --> 00:47:29.800 that he will buy out the indentured contracts of any of the women at the 640 00:47:29.840 --> 00:47:35.119 brothel to let them be barmaids. That hit at his establishment and it clearly 641 00:47:35.119 --> 00:47:37.639 says, yeah that we serve at drinks, there be customers, but his 642 00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:39.599 words lebino skin trade. You know, this is a salaried position, and 643 00:47:40.519 --> 00:47:44.840 that's like, I think it's pretty clear he could hire people anywhere, and 644 00:47:44.920 --> 00:47:47.400 yes, their customers are like, they're gonna be flirtatious and pretty. But 645 00:47:47.440 --> 00:47:51.920 he's not doing that for the business. He's doing that because he saw what 646 00:47:52.119 --> 00:47:54.199 happened to a Naz and now he wants to buy out others as well. 647 00:47:54.239 --> 00:48:00.719 It's just such a beautiful moment. It's really good. You describe him at 648 00:48:00.719 --> 00:48:04.960 one point as an anti villain. Talk more about what that is, because 649 00:48:04.960 --> 00:48:08.760 he's in the really where like, go ahead, I was just gonna say, 650 00:48:08.760 --> 00:48:13.320 I think that was a typo, but it's a great phrase. Yeah, 651 00:48:13.360 --> 00:48:15.639 it's a phrase that my friend Paul has used on this show a couple 652 00:48:15.639 --> 00:48:17.360 of times. I'm curious what, like, well, whether you use a 653 00:48:17.400 --> 00:48:21.880 phrase or not. Where do you think he stands, because he's like, 654 00:48:21.960 --> 00:48:24.760 he's fastidiously the you know, even at the end they've all had their big 655 00:48:24.840 --> 00:48:29.400 victory, and you know, the king says, you know, we thank 656 00:48:29.400 --> 00:48:30.920 you so much for your help, and I said, we'll take your thanks 657 00:48:30.920 --> 00:48:37.000 in gold, thank you very much. Um where do you place him in 658 00:48:37.079 --> 00:48:40.519 kind of hero villain status? I mean, he is very much an antihero. 659 00:48:40.800 --> 00:48:45.760 He is somebody who is ultimately on the good guy's side, but very 660 00:48:45.840 --> 00:48:51.800 much on his own terms. Um, Like, I don't think he would 661 00:48:51.960 --> 00:48:57.119 participate in war crimes for profit. But if he's on the side of like, 662 00:48:57.519 --> 00:49:00.440 if he's on Alina's side, he's still going to look for ways to 663 00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:05.079 profit from being on Alina's side. And I think he does have a lot 664 00:49:05.199 --> 00:49:10.079 of personal revenge motivation, which is is interesting and will definitely talk about. 665 00:49:13.239 --> 00:49:16.199 And it spends a lot of time and effort trying to come across as I 666 00:49:16.239 --> 00:49:20.119 have no morality, I have no lines. I will do whatever I have 667 00:49:20.159 --> 00:49:22.639 to do to get my revenge and get my gold. But it also demonstrates 668 00:49:22.760 --> 00:49:27.119 he does have a line, and he does have like he will draw moral 669 00:49:27.199 --> 00:49:31.039 line in the sand and not cross it, And so I think that firmly 670 00:49:31.119 --> 00:49:37.880 places him still in hero territory. But he is a hero who does not 671 00:49:37.000 --> 00:49:42.800 have qualms about most murders. He does not have like in the books, 672 00:49:42.880 --> 00:49:49.239 he'd straight up tortures some people. He is. He his moral bar is 673 00:49:49.360 --> 00:49:54.360 much lower than most of the other characters and definitely like sort of the lowest 674 00:49:54.400 --> 00:50:00.320 of the good guys, and he's okay with that. He absolutely he does 675 00:50:00.360 --> 00:50:06.519 not mind, and he will be a villain when he has to, But 676 00:50:07.039 --> 00:50:09.159 he is not somebody who is. And like what I had mentioned when we 677 00:50:09.159 --> 00:50:14.039 were talking about this before, is like the difference between him and the Darkling 678 00:50:14.360 --> 00:50:16.679 is very much one of scale, because the Darkling, I think, has 679 00:50:16.760 --> 00:50:25.119 much more noble causes for his you know, villainy initially, but is a 680 00:50:25.199 --> 00:50:31.320 genocidal maniac, more criminal, whereas Kaz has really only very personal motivations for 681 00:50:31.800 --> 00:50:38.159 doing horrible things, but also is not going to murder squads of people, 682 00:50:38.400 --> 00:50:42.719 right, Like I think one of the most revealing scenes about him is when 683 00:50:42.719 --> 00:50:47.039 he's he has that final confrontation with Pecca and he brings him down, and 684 00:50:49.000 --> 00:50:52.760 for a lot of the episode, he is strongly implying that he has kidnapped 685 00:50:52.760 --> 00:50:58.519 Pecca's kid and literally buried the kid alive, and that, yeah, and 686 00:50:58.880 --> 00:51:00.440 this is a child, This is like a six year old. Yeah, 687 00:51:00.440 --> 00:51:02.800 this isn't like you know, your teen, your twenty year old son. 688 00:51:04.679 --> 00:51:09.199 And I thought it was brilliantly written that I watched that whole scene not honestly 689 00:51:09.280 --> 00:51:12.639 knowing if he had done that or not. Where I thought the way his 690 00:51:12.760 --> 00:51:16.400 character had written, it was possible that he had done that, And in 691 00:51:16.480 --> 00:51:21.559 the end we find that he hadn't, and that he but he had kidnapped 692 00:51:21.559 --> 00:51:23.960 the child, which is didn't of itself a thing that should be mentioned. 693 00:51:24.400 --> 00:51:28.239 But he didn't put the child in any real danger. I don't think he 694 00:51:28.239 --> 00:51:30.519 ever would, and he actually Little One was kind of jokingly offended when someone 695 00:51:30.559 --> 00:51:34.840 thinks he might have, but also like he wants people to think he might 696 00:51:34.880 --> 00:51:38.360 have well, And he's been so convincing, and this is one of my 697 00:51:38.400 --> 00:51:45.039 favorite things. He's been so convincing that Jessper and WiLAN, who are both 698 00:51:45.360 --> 00:51:51.079 crows, they both work with him and generally like respect him. Also both 699 00:51:51.119 --> 00:51:55.960 think he is fully capable of burying a child alive. Yeah, because he 700 00:51:57.280 --> 00:52:02.000 sends them to do like reconnaissance Spain, basically at Peca Rollins's hidden country estate, 701 00:52:02.039 --> 00:52:06.559 and they discover this kid and they say to each other, we can't 702 00:52:06.599 --> 00:52:09.480 tell Kaz that he has a son, because they know full well Kaz will 703 00:52:09.880 --> 00:52:14.559 exploit that and do something terrible to this child. And it turns out Kaz 704 00:52:14.599 --> 00:52:17.480 already knows and fully is. They're like, hah, yeah, we didn't 705 00:52:17.480 --> 00:52:20.760 find anything. And he's like, really, he didn't find his son and 706 00:52:20.800 --> 00:52:23.559 they're like ah, And so they say, yes, we did. He's 707 00:52:23.599 --> 00:52:28.519 there, but only because Kaz already knows. But the fact that people who 708 00:52:29.199 --> 00:52:34.199 I wouldn't say trust but more or less trust and like Kaz also think it's 709 00:52:34.199 --> 00:52:37.360 totally possible that Kas would murder a child, I think speaks to the fact 710 00:52:37.360 --> 00:52:45.719 that Kaz has very effectively painted himself as somebody who will do horrible things when 711 00:52:45.719 --> 00:52:50.119 the reality is that, actually, no, he's not going to murder an 712 00:52:50.159 --> 00:52:53.559 innocent child. And I think I do think it's also important. I think 713 00:52:53.559 --> 00:52:57.719 it's in part because he's just like he doesn't want to murder innocence in general, 714 00:52:58.199 --> 00:53:02.280 but I think we are definitely Pecca's child is about the age, maybe 715 00:53:02.280 --> 00:53:07.119 a little bit younger than he was. In the flashbacks, we see where 716 00:53:07.119 --> 00:53:09.639 his brother got defrauded and ruined by Peca, and I think that's by no 717 00:53:09.719 --> 00:53:15.599 means coincidental. He is. Yeah, No, that's it's absolutely unpre and 718 00:53:15.679 --> 00:53:19.519 it's it's really well done. Yeah. I think another reason why I love 719 00:53:19.639 --> 00:53:23.159 Kaz so much is I've talked for in the show that I'm disabled. I 720 00:53:23.239 --> 00:53:25.840 have a prosthetic leg, I walk with a cane a lot. The way 721 00:53:25.880 --> 00:53:30.519 he does. He is some of my favorite disability representation that I've seen, 722 00:53:30.679 --> 00:53:35.559 in part because he's not like I think we need more people who are in 723 00:53:35.559 --> 00:53:37.599 wheelchairs. We need more people who are, you know, much more. 724 00:53:38.079 --> 00:53:40.320 I don't want the idea of disability as a scale, but I should. 725 00:53:40.480 --> 00:53:44.719 Whose movement is much more impaired than he is. He's able to fight with 726 00:53:44.760 --> 00:53:47.320 the cane. He does some great fighting moves with the cane that are great. 727 00:53:47.719 --> 00:53:51.719 But if I watched that fight scene carefully, he still is he still 728 00:53:51.800 --> 00:53:55.280 has a bad leg. Like he's not faking that by any means, but 729 00:53:55.400 --> 00:54:00.000 there's a beautiful scene where they talk about like people go I think when they're 730 00:54:00.039 --> 00:54:02.960 and shoe and talk about like someone going after your weakness, and he makes 731 00:54:02.960 --> 00:54:08.119 clear that he wants everyone to think his weakness is the cane and his bad 732 00:54:08.199 --> 00:54:13.039 leg. It's not. His weakness is Anez like his feelings for her, 733 00:54:13.079 --> 00:54:16.159 because that's the part I know. It's so romantic and it's so beautiful. 734 00:54:16.239 --> 00:54:22.079 It's just like but it's just it was just a lot of times when disabled 735 00:54:22.159 --> 00:54:24.039 characters are in this show, either they're the like the thing that has to 736 00:54:24.039 --> 00:54:28.880 be rescued, or they're they have such a heart of gold, they're just 737 00:54:29.000 --> 00:54:31.599 perfect and wonderful, and how can you not want to help them. And 738 00:54:31.719 --> 00:54:37.480 so having someone who's disabled also be kind of an a hole and just really 739 00:54:37.559 --> 00:54:42.559 dark, but also have this incredible romantic side, it was just so great 740 00:54:42.559 --> 00:54:47.039 to watch. It's it's really great. And the fact they never he doesn't 741 00:54:47.039 --> 00:54:52.800 conveniently become not disabled. He doesn't have a he's not a grisha. He 742 00:54:52.880 --> 00:54:57.360 doesn't have a superpower that makes up for makes up for that's not a great 743 00:54:57.400 --> 00:55:00.760 way of putting it. He doesn't have something that makes his disapo no longer 744 00:55:00.840 --> 00:55:06.960 relevant. Right, which has a bad Yes, so he has a bad 745 00:55:07.039 --> 00:55:10.000 leg. He uses a cane. He can walk without the cane at some 746 00:55:10.320 --> 00:55:15.480 for some period of time and will eventually need it or need to stop walking, 747 00:55:15.280 --> 00:55:20.199 and he is the scene I will say it's better in the books, 748 00:55:20.199 --> 00:55:23.079 but the scene where he basically walks into one of the clubs where he used 749 00:55:23.079 --> 00:55:28.239 to work and is like, yeah, so I will fight all comers and 750 00:55:28.280 --> 00:55:31.000 if I win, you all have to work for me now, and then 751 00:55:31.239 --> 00:55:37.920 fights all comers, even knowing he is going like he's going to be in 752 00:55:37.960 --> 00:55:42.480 pain because he's in this massive fist fight, but he's specifically going to be 753 00:55:42.559 --> 00:55:46.880 in pain because of his disability, and it's a real risk because he knows 754 00:55:46.960 --> 00:55:51.880 that he has to balance what he can do with how like how far he 755 00:55:51.920 --> 00:55:55.639 can push himself, and he takes that risk. Anyway, it's really good. 756 00:55:55.800 --> 00:55:59.960 Yeah, I can definitely imagine that and both I mean just the same 757 00:56:00.159 --> 00:56:02.239 A graphic of it, like I'm not someone who really loves fight scenes, 758 00:56:02.880 --> 00:56:07.480 but watching him use the cane to grab a chair and throw it, like, 759 00:56:07.719 --> 00:56:12.639 it's clear that this is someone who has thought about did you watch the 760 00:56:12.639 --> 00:56:16.920 show Hawkeye, the MCU show No Echo was one of the characters on there, 761 00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:20.880 and she's kind of a villain, but she has some she kind of 762 00:56:20.880 --> 00:56:23.239 becomes a good guy towards the end, good character who heard at the end. 763 00:56:23.599 --> 00:56:27.039 She has a prosthetic leg, and there's a couple of times where she 764 00:56:27.159 --> 00:56:30.519 uses the prosthetic leg in very specific ways in combat that you couldn't do with 765 00:56:30.559 --> 00:56:34.519 a normal leg. And I just I love that and watching him do that 766 00:56:34.519 --> 00:56:37.400 thing with a cane. But you're right, it's also he knows how many 767 00:56:37.400 --> 00:56:38.480 spoons he has, you know, to use our own a modern language, 768 00:56:38.519 --> 00:56:45.159 and he balances that. And I will say, just as like a shout 769 00:56:45.159 --> 00:56:50.239 out to leave our dugo the author she has spoken about she has I don't 770 00:56:50.239 --> 00:56:52.440 know precisely, you know what the background out than it is, but it 771 00:56:52.519 --> 00:56:55.039 is not my point. But she has a bad leg. She uses a 772 00:56:55.119 --> 00:57:00.519 cane. Yeah, And she wrote Kaz in part because she wanted to a 773 00:57:00.599 --> 00:57:06.599 disabled character who was a badass. And that's really awesome, And she just 774 00:57:06.760 --> 00:57:12.679 landed an enormous book deal. Like that's a whole side tangent. But she 775 00:57:12.920 --> 00:57:17.800 is making eight figures, which eight figures, I think it's to write ten 776 00:57:17.920 --> 00:57:22.880 books across the publisher They're like, we don't care what they are, we 777 00:57:22.920 --> 00:57:24.840 don't care what genre, we don't care what h range. Just keep writing 778 00:57:24.880 --> 00:57:32.760 books for us. And I think having a disabled woman writer make that kind 779 00:57:32.800 --> 00:57:37.760 of bank is really awesome. Yeah, and she's really cool anyway, So 780 00:57:37.800 --> 00:57:42.599 that's a whole side tangent. But I think that like, one of the 781 00:57:42.599 --> 00:57:47.079 ways that you get better disability rep is to have more disabled people involved in 782 00:57:47.199 --> 00:57:52.159 media creation. And I think that this is a really good like, look 783 00:57:52.159 --> 00:57:54.039 at how powerful that can be. Yeah, I think it really is, 784 00:57:54.960 --> 00:58:00.639 especially because and here's my one big bone to pick with the way his story 785 00:58:00.719 --> 00:58:04.280 is told, and I'm curious your thoughts on it. One thing they also 786 00:58:04.360 --> 00:58:07.400 make clear, and this is someone I think we often like to think of 787 00:58:07.760 --> 00:58:14.760 physical disability and mental disability or mental health issues as fundamentally different things that are 788 00:58:14.760 --> 00:58:19.119 totally unconnected and totally unlinked. And there are often a lot of the disability 789 00:58:19.119 --> 00:58:22.000 communication like when you say, oh, this person is disabled. I think 790 00:58:22.039 --> 00:58:24.599 for most people, the image as a person in a wheelchair, I mean, 791 00:58:24.599 --> 00:58:29.320 like quite literally is the logo for you know, accessibility and stuff like 792 00:58:29.360 --> 00:58:34.800 that. And obviously there's many other physical disabilities, but also mental disability is 793 00:58:34.840 --> 00:58:37.039 a big thing, and I think we kind of get you know, this 794 00:58:37.159 --> 00:58:45.519 is Grisha in approximate eighteen hundreds kind of world. We don't get modern medical 795 00:58:45.519 --> 00:58:51.480 tech terminology used what I think saying that he has PTSD or borderline or something 796 00:58:51.519 --> 00:58:57.239 like that is very legitimate, and seeing the way that's portrayed, I thought 797 00:58:57.320 --> 00:59:00.400 was really beautiful, especially because we get a better sense of this is why 798 00:59:00.440 --> 00:59:04.760 he doesn't like to be touched, and this is why he doesn't why he 799 00:59:04.840 --> 00:59:07.280 keeps his gloves on all the time. It's because he has very big issues 800 00:59:07.320 --> 00:59:10.719 about being touched, which again can be very common with people who have a 801 00:59:10.760 --> 00:59:16.599 lot of childhood trauma. How did you feel about that was portrayed and then 802 00:59:16.639 --> 00:59:24.880 how that comes about in his romance with and As I So that was one 803 00:59:24.880 --> 00:59:28.519 of the few moments on the show that I did not think landed well. 804 00:59:28.679 --> 00:59:34.119 Yeah, And again it's one that I can't really talk about without talking about 805 00:59:34.159 --> 00:59:37.360 the books because a lot of the dialogue for that is directly from the book. 806 00:59:38.760 --> 00:59:46.000 But like so I said that they do book five, that dialogue is 807 00:59:46.039 --> 00:59:51.400 in book four, okay, and like I literally looked it up before we 808 00:59:51.480 --> 00:59:54.159 did this. I was like, I'm not where where is that? I 809 00:59:54.199 --> 00:59:58.760 think it lands very differently in the book because his relationship with her is at 810 00:59:58.760 --> 01:00:00.800 a different point in the book. And just to be here, we're talking 811 01:00:00.840 --> 01:00:07.159 about the scene where he finally sort of professes his feelings for her and she 812 01:00:07.239 --> 01:00:08.400 kind of pushes him to do it, you know, she says, what 813 01:00:08.440 --> 01:00:10.840 do you want? And he says to die under a pile of gold, 814 01:00:12.159 --> 01:00:15.480 which I'm okay with the idea that Kes is a dragon now, but she 815 01:00:15.559 --> 01:00:17.880 pushes a little more and he he says, no, I don't want you 816 01:00:17.920 --> 01:00:22.679 to leave. I want you and and her response is to say, you 817 01:00:22.719 --> 01:00:25.119 know, to kind of almost mock him a little bit and say, but 818 01:00:25.119 --> 01:00:29.239 but would you want me with your gloves on? Would you turn your face 819 01:00:29.280 --> 01:00:31.800 when I try to kiss you? And actual renown this, I can quote 820 01:00:31.840 --> 01:00:38.400 it. And then her final line is I will have you without your armor, 821 01:00:38.480 --> 01:00:43.400 Kaz Brecker, or I'll not have you at all. And as I 822 01:00:43.480 --> 01:00:45.159 hear, we're going with the books, but just first, just kind of 823 01:00:45.199 --> 01:00:49.239 expell it out. What about that didn't land well for you? It didn't 824 01:00:49.320 --> 01:00:52.480 land well for me because it feels a lot like I don't want to deal 825 01:00:52.719 --> 01:00:57.280 with your mental health issues kaz Brecker, so come back to me when you've 826 01:00:57.800 --> 01:01:04.519 healed a little, which is complicated because on the one hand, you can't 827 01:01:04.519 --> 01:01:08.320 necessarily ask you ask your loved ones to fix you. You can't like if 828 01:01:08.360 --> 01:01:15.079 you're going to be somebody who I think he would be very toxic in a 829 01:01:15.159 --> 01:01:20.800 relationship, and a lot of that is from the PTSD, but that doesn't 830 01:01:20.800 --> 01:01:24.440 mean it would be okay to be toxic in a relationship, and so that's 831 01:01:24.480 --> 01:01:30.639 a really complicated fine line to walk, and I think for me, the 832 01:01:30.719 --> 01:01:35.400 tone of the show ended up too much on the side of I don't want 833 01:01:35.400 --> 01:01:42.719 to deal with your issues, as opposed to how I read it in the 834 01:01:42.800 --> 01:01:46.480 books, where it was much more about you haven't yet let me in on 835 01:01:46.679 --> 01:01:52.519 understanding where you came from and what your trauma is, and I'm not willing 836 01:01:52.519 --> 01:01:55.719 to commit myself to a relationship with somebody who doesn't trust me with that, 837 01:01:55.960 --> 01:02:00.719 which to me, those felt like and that's some of that me reading into 838 01:02:00.719 --> 01:02:02.440 it. But to me, those felt like very different scenes because I think 839 01:02:02.559 --> 01:02:07.800 we had seen more of them trusting and taking care of and sacrificing for each 840 01:02:07.800 --> 01:02:12.440 other at that point in the show, whereas I think in the books, 841 01:02:12.480 --> 01:02:16.760 it still feels more one sided. Yeah, and so it feels much more 842 01:02:16.800 --> 01:02:21.960 like, yeah, it's a good choice for her to say, I'm not 843 01:02:22.000 --> 01:02:25.000 going to settle for a relationship with somebody who won't let me in, and 844 01:02:25.079 --> 01:02:30.000 so, like the line about armor feels much more like please trust me, 845 01:02:30.159 --> 01:02:34.159 as opposed to I don't want to deal with your issues. Yeah, And 846 01:02:34.199 --> 01:02:37.159 I think that would make because I was thinking about if you just had one 847 01:02:37.239 --> 01:02:40.079 or two more lines from her, that scene would land so differently because to 848 01:02:40.159 --> 01:02:44.320 me, I think you're right. I think if it is about the trust 849 01:02:44.360 --> 01:02:46.840 thing, it makes sense. Or even I think, you know, different 850 01:02:46.880 --> 01:02:52.480 people have different levels of physical touch and physical affection that they need in a 851 01:02:52.519 --> 01:02:55.880 relationship, and I think for someone to say, like, I have all 852 01:02:55.920 --> 01:03:00.639 the respect in the world for where you are and that for you physical touch 853 01:03:00.719 --> 01:03:06.119 is very difficult, but I really need physical touch and a relationship, and 854 01:03:06.239 --> 01:03:07.920 until you're able to give more, I don't know if I can be with 855 01:03:07.960 --> 01:03:14.599 you. That's a very different conversation to me. What was so hard about 856 01:03:14.599 --> 01:03:16.159 it, especially yet because there was a little bit of that trust, but 857 01:03:16.400 --> 01:03:20.119 it was almost more like, you know, I need you to go this 858 01:03:20.280 --> 01:03:25.199 far? Is it felt like it came right after he has made a huge 859 01:03:25.239 --> 01:03:30.840 step in that direction where he's like, okay, like he's loosened the bonds 860 01:03:30.880 --> 01:03:34.800 on his armor and he's shown that he's trying to work towards taking it off, 861 01:03:35.400 --> 01:03:37.639 but that it's going to be a slow process. And again like for 862 01:03:37.679 --> 01:03:42.280 her to say I can't be here for the process, which I guess she's 863 01:03:42.360 --> 01:03:45.599 kind of doing, but it just there was no acknowledgment of like, I 864 01:03:45.639 --> 01:03:50.360 love that you've taken this first step, Now I need you to go further 865 01:03:50.440 --> 01:03:53.119 before I can be with you. It just kind of felt like shaming him, 866 01:03:53.360 --> 01:03:58.719 and especially now that we've linked that the fact that he has the problems 867 01:03:58.719 --> 01:04:02.119 with touch is so linked to his trauma. It just really felt wrong, 868 01:04:02.159 --> 01:04:06.039 and I kind of like I couldn't really cheer for her as she walked away. 869 01:04:08.400 --> 01:04:12.920 Yeah, I feel like again, so, since I haven't reread the 870 01:04:12.960 --> 01:04:15.719 books, I don't remember exactly which facets of their relationship have happened and which 871 01:04:15.719 --> 01:04:26.880 haven't yet. I also think in some ways she has more so she makes 872 01:04:26.880 --> 01:04:29.159 a lot of decisions in the book about what she's going to do in the 873 01:04:29.159 --> 01:04:33.239 future that I think it implies that maybe Kaz has given her some of the 874 01:04:33.320 --> 01:04:39.440 ideas for them or has arranged them, and that feels very different to me 875 01:04:39.480 --> 01:04:44.079 in having him sort of be the one pushing those even though they are things 876 01:04:44.119 --> 01:04:47.119 that she wants, they are good things, as opposed to the books, 877 01:04:47.159 --> 01:04:54.960 where she cares very deeply about him and wants him to trust her, but 878 01:04:55.039 --> 01:04:59.320 she's not making decisions assuming that her life is going to be intertwined with his. 879 01:04:59.400 --> 01:05:02.199 She's making decisions for herself about you know, what's she going to do 880 01:05:02.239 --> 01:05:05.079 with the cut of the money that they get from this pig heist. And 881 01:05:05.119 --> 01:05:10.840 she knows what she wants to do and would love for him to be part 882 01:05:10.960 --> 01:05:14.440 of her life, but has made a decision that because he won't trust her, 883 01:05:15.039 --> 01:05:18.639 she can't build that life image around him, which I think is really 884 01:05:18.760 --> 01:05:23.039 valid and it's a really good choice, and I really like the way that's 885 01:05:23.039 --> 01:05:28.239 handled. So it was a little bit disappointing in the series, and I 886 01:05:28.280 --> 01:05:31.960 think there were some reasons for those choices, but I think it was a 887 01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:35.000 little bit disappointing that it was much more like, ah, yes, I've 888 01:05:35.000 --> 01:05:41.400 been secretly looking for your family this whole time, which he may have in 889 01:05:41.440 --> 01:05:45.760 the books, I don't remember if she had said she wanted to find them 890 01:05:45.800 --> 01:05:48.119 first, or if he had been looking for them first, but it felt 891 01:05:48.119 --> 01:05:53.440 and like her. Without getting into the details of what I do or not 892 01:05:53.599 --> 01:05:57.480 don't remember, there is definitely a chance that some of what I'm remembering happened 893 01:05:57.480 --> 01:06:00.400 in slightly different orders. So it may not be as off from the books 894 01:06:00.400 --> 01:06:03.599 as I think it is, but I think it casts has much more. 895 01:06:04.440 --> 01:06:10.599 I think I think the show tries to make him more sympathetic by making him 896 01:06:10.719 --> 01:06:16.880 letting him be more open with her earlier, and unfortunately, the flip side 897 01:06:16.920 --> 01:06:21.360 of that is that it means that her rejection of him there comes off a 898 01:06:21.400 --> 01:06:27.000 lot more poorly than if they are still in the midst of things working out. 899 01:06:27.760 --> 01:06:31.360 So it's it's really good dialogue in the context that it is in the 900 01:06:31.360 --> 01:06:34.119 book, and it really rubbed me the wrong way in the show. Yeah, 901 01:06:34.159 --> 01:06:38.079 and again it sounds like and I'm not complaining, I thought the show 902 01:06:38.159 --> 01:06:41.559 was phenomenal. It though, does sound like it's one of those where like, 903 01:06:42.960 --> 01:06:47.199 because they're trying to have this very specific rhythm of season one, we 904 01:06:47.320 --> 01:06:51.480 establish all these couples who might get together. Season two, they get together, 905 01:06:51.920 --> 01:06:55.400 but then they get or at least they lean towards it, but then 906 01:06:55.400 --> 01:06:58.599 they get separated again so that by the end of season three we can have 907 01:06:58.719 --> 01:07:01.039 you know, them all getting there happily. Ever after is that they needed 908 01:07:01.039 --> 01:07:03.119 to kind of like pull things for a couple different parts, and so it 909 01:07:03.199 --> 01:07:06.199 just it just it just felt like it just didn't work. So but I'm 910 01:07:06.199 --> 01:07:14.480 glad we're particularly because these issues of romance and mental trauma and touch and you 911 01:07:14.519 --> 01:07:17.920 know, are all thinking, like, I love that we're exploring a character 912 01:07:17.920 --> 01:07:23.039 who has real trouble being touched romantically because of their trauma, and that it's 913 01:07:23.039 --> 01:07:26.480 a male character or we don't see that often. So I love that we're 914 01:07:26.519 --> 01:07:29.000 doing this, and I have faith that we're going to see it done well. 915 01:07:29.199 --> 01:07:32.199 I just want us to comment on that one part. Yeah, I 916 01:07:32.639 --> 01:07:36.400 that hurts. So you had originally like put that into the discussion, and 917 01:07:36.480 --> 01:07:40.000 I was really glad that you had, because I had definitely thought about it 918 01:07:40.000 --> 01:07:42.480 and been like, is that too specific? Am I reading too much into 919 01:07:42.480 --> 01:07:44.960 that? So I was really glad that I was like, no, okay, 920 01:07:45.000 --> 01:07:46.639 that really that moment did not land the way they wanted it too, 921 01:07:46.719 --> 01:07:50.480 And yeah, and it's it's not a great moment. Which is sad because 922 01:07:50.519 --> 01:07:55.360 everything else about their relationship is so good. It really is, it really 923 01:07:55.440 --> 01:07:59.079 is. And again, we still have a third season, so we'll go 924 01:07:59.119 --> 01:08:00.880 there, yes, and I will be. Yeah, I'm very excited for 925 01:08:01.239 --> 01:08:06.719 for more of that season. So there's a lot more we could talk about. 926 01:08:06.760 --> 01:08:11.480 And the question of like the Saints and religion is one that we're actually 927 01:08:11.480 --> 01:08:15.679 going to talk about a little bit in the Patreon segment at the end for 928 01:08:15.760 --> 01:08:17.680 patrons. But just quickly before that, is there any of the last points 929 01:08:17.760 --> 01:08:24.000 or comments you wanted to make or questions you wanted to raise? Why are 930 01:08:24.039 --> 01:08:30.039 pirates so cool in fiction? Pers privateers? Yeah? Now, I don't 931 01:08:30.039 --> 01:08:36.159 know that I have I have much else. I just I really really enjoyed 932 01:08:36.199 --> 01:08:40.319 the series. I think that there were some cool things that they did in 933 01:08:40.319 --> 01:08:42.560 it that, like, like I said, I liked better than the way 934 01:08:42.600 --> 01:08:45.960 some of the things were handled in the books. And I am I freely 935 01:08:45.000 --> 01:08:49.199 hope they get a third season because I want to see the heist so bad. 936 01:08:49.479 --> 01:08:55.159 Yeah, I think it would be really cool if they actually do the 937 01:08:55.199 --> 01:08:58.279 stuff in the next season that I think they're going to, so yeah, 938 01:08:59.079 --> 01:09:00.760 and it would be nice if they get the next season to actually get to 939 01:09:00.760 --> 01:09:05.199 see the Nina Madias plotline. Yeah, they were set up so well. 940 01:09:05.239 --> 01:09:10.199 Their chemistry in season one I reached the whole like her seducing him, and 941 01:09:10.520 --> 01:09:13.520 you know, the Romeo and Juliet ands of it was so well done, 942 01:09:13.920 --> 01:09:17.000 and I just I get why you were keeping them away, but I just 943 01:09:17.960 --> 01:09:21.399 is he can engage in the fights and I just didn't care in the same 944 01:09:21.439 --> 01:09:24.880 way, and it just felt like those two were in a holding pattern. 945 01:09:25.399 --> 01:09:30.399 Um. Yeah, really glad that we're gonna see where that goes. Yeah, 946 01:09:30.680 --> 01:09:32.560 Um, but yeah, I think I think that's pretty much it for 947 01:09:32.600 --> 01:09:38.439 me. I definitely would recommend the show. It does have that. I 948 01:09:38.479 --> 01:09:42.960 think of it as like the pacing of a CW teen drama in a lot 949 01:09:42.960 --> 01:09:45.479 of ways, where it moves fast and the costumes all look a little bit 950 01:09:45.560 --> 01:09:50.439 cheap and ridiculous, but it's so much fun that it doesn't matter. And 951 01:09:50.479 --> 01:09:56.479 so I if you enjoyed The Vampire Diaries, you should watch Shadow and Bone. 952 01:09:56.560 --> 01:10:00.399 And if you like Heis, you should read six of the Rosy, 953 01:10:00.520 --> 01:10:03.000 which I know I said last time and I talked about it slightly less this 954 01:10:03.079 --> 01:10:08.119 time, but for real, read these books. They are very good and 955 01:10:08.159 --> 01:10:12.600 if you just want the absolute best and you're not so into the like ya 956 01:10:12.680 --> 01:10:16.800 fantasy love Triangle read Six of Crows. It's the books that's that are about 957 01:10:16.880 --> 01:10:24.319 specifically Kaz and his crew as opposed to Elena and now they are phenomenal. 958 01:10:24.600 --> 01:10:29.000 We haven't even talked about Jasper and the I forgot. I forgot. We 959 01:10:29.000 --> 01:10:31.199 had a one night stand and we turned into like long term lovers and it's 960 01:10:31.239 --> 01:10:34.359 such a beautiful story. It's so well thought. Oh they're so good. 961 01:10:34.560 --> 01:10:40.319 Jesper and Wilon absolute like they are the OTP. Like, let's be real. 962 01:10:40.520 --> 01:10:43.720 That's very fair. That's very fair. All right. Well, Becky 963 01:10:43.760 --> 01:10:46.359 has always thank you so much for me In a part you go Becky or 964 01:10:46.399 --> 01:10:48.880 Becca for some reason, I got Becky, thank you. Okay, that's 965 01:10:48.920 --> 01:10:53.000 Becky, That's what I got thought. Okay, Becky's always thank you so 966 01:10:53.079 --> 01:10:55.319 much for this. We're gonna have you on for just a little while longer 967 01:10:55.359 --> 01:10:58.520 for the patrons, but everyone who's not sticking around for that. You're a 968 01:10:58.520 --> 01:11:01.000 published author and you've written some really great stuff. Talk about a little more 969 01:11:01.000 --> 01:11:04.520 about where people can find you, both commentary stuff you've done, but also 970 01:11:04.560 --> 01:11:10.800 your actual writings. Um. Yeah, so my books. You can check 971 01:11:10.800 --> 01:11:13.800 them out at Becky allenbooks dot com if you want all of the links. 972 01:11:14.119 --> 01:11:17.640 But I have written two YA fantasy novels, like I said, I Am 973 01:11:17.840 --> 01:11:25.079 Part of That World, that are about a very angry teenage girl in a 974 01:11:25.239 --> 01:11:30.279 desert world who discovers the water that can bring back her the magic that can 975 01:11:30.319 --> 01:11:33.359 bring back her world's water. But she's a slave who has been abused, 976 01:11:33.399 --> 01:11:38.920 and she doesn't really want to help anyone in her world, and so it's 977 01:11:39.039 --> 01:11:45.560 very much about what what could possibly make her decide that it's that she's going 978 01:11:45.600 --> 01:11:49.119 to help people after all of the trauma that she has. It's fair and 979 01:11:50.000 --> 01:11:54.479 so Bound by Blood and Sand is the first book. If you want me, 980 01:11:54.560 --> 01:11:58.479 like I said Becky allenbooks dot com, you can find me on Twitter 981 01:11:58.680 --> 01:12:04.199 as long as Twitter's days afloat which who knows I am at all reb a 982 01:12:04.520 --> 01:12:11.039 L L R EV. And you can also from either Twitter or my website 983 01:12:11.119 --> 01:12:15.399 find my newsletter, which I send once every couple of months and it tends 984 01:12:15.439 --> 01:12:21.800 to be a long ramble about writing or learning to swim as an adult, 985 01:12:21.840 --> 01:12:29.319 taking adult swimming classes, and dealing with burnout and other just general living life 986 01:12:29.319 --> 01:12:31.880 and trying to figure out how all those pieces fit together. Stuff nice, 987 01:12:32.199 --> 01:12:35.439 nice, well, So glad to have you on as always, Definitely do 988 01:12:35.560 --> 01:12:41.079 check that out. Some great writing in those books sounds weird. Definitely check 989 01:12:41.159 --> 01:12:44.439 all that out. Becky's a great writer as well as a great commentator on 990 01:12:44.479 --> 01:12:46.039 this stuff. So good to have you on. And of course those of 991 01:12:46.039 --> 01:12:50.399 you who are tuning in you can find this podcast as well as my Star 992 01:12:50.439 --> 01:12:55.800 Wars Universe podcast that Becky has been a guest on. We're a great couple 993 01:12:55.800 --> 01:12:58.960 of things on Rogue one and the Eddie, the Hero's Journey versus sort of 994 01:12:58.960 --> 01:13:02.840 the big collective. All that you can find by going to the Ethical Panda 995 01:13:02.880 --> 01:13:06.640 dot com. There also you'll find all the ways to support this podcast through 996 01:13:06.680 --> 01:13:10.720 our Patreon and other things like that, and most importantly, the ways to 997 01:13:10.720 --> 01:13:13.800 give us feedback. Love to continue the conversation with y'all. What did you 998 01:13:13.840 --> 01:13:15.800 all think of this season of Shadow and Bone and the books and how it 999 01:13:15.840 --> 01:13:19.479 all connected? Find us an email, Twitter, TikTok, all those things. 1000 01:13:19.680 --> 01:13:24.960 So I'm so on behalf of myself and Becky thank you all so much. 1001 01:13:25.159 --> 01:13:26.079 We have spoken