WEBVTT 1 00:00:40.280 --> 00:00:45.960 Hello, and welcome to Open minds UFO Radio. I am your host, 2 00:00:46.079 --> 00:00:53.039 Alejandro Rojas, and I am here with that Martin bad connection. Willis. 3 00:00:54.320 --> 00:00:57.479 Well, let's hope that's not true. Yeah, actually it sounds good. 4 00:00:57.840 --> 00:01:02.280 We were having problems a minute ago, but it sounding good. Yeah. 5 00:01:02.280 --> 00:01:07.239 The internet's been intermittent here, but we better we better start, you know, 6 00:01:07.319 --> 00:01:10.400 just keep talking and get into it. Huh. Okay, Well, 7 00:01:10.439 --> 00:01:15.920 first I'll talk about my guest, and that is I'm really this is what 8 00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:19.239 I'm super excited about because it's been years in the making. Again, cannot 9 00:01:19.239 --> 00:01:23.680 believe that I haven't had a mom before. But my guest is Greg Bishop, 10 00:01:25.239 --> 00:01:30.000 and I'm a really big fan of his. I often reference his book 11 00:01:32.879 --> 00:01:36.480 Project Beta. And the reason why is, of course, people who listen 12 00:01:36.519 --> 00:01:41.480 to my show know that I'm into this whole Richard Dodie, William Moore thing. 13 00:01:41.799 --> 00:01:44.519 And I actually am going to give a short overview for people just so 14 00:01:44.560 --> 00:01:47.079 they can be on the same page. We talk about it in the show, 15 00:01:47.280 --> 00:01:49.719 but I want to make sure that everybody has a strong idea of what 16 00:01:49.799 --> 00:01:53.280 we're talking about. So because it's more fun when you feel like you know 17 00:01:53.319 --> 00:01:57.200 what people are talking about. But essentially the situation where this gentleman William Moore, 18 00:01:57.640 --> 00:02:00.760 who is a big deal because because of the Roswell event which is coming 19 00:02:00.840 --> 00:02:05.040 up here soon and Greg and I will talk about that, but he was 20 00:02:05.079 --> 00:02:08.080 a UFO researcher. It turned out he was working with a guy who was 21 00:02:08.120 --> 00:02:13.960 working for the Air Force, Richard Dody. Richard Tody claimed that you know, 22 00:02:14.479 --> 00:02:19.599 he was doing this this information program, and his outlet for information was 23 00:02:19.599 --> 00:02:23.960 this man named Paul Benowitz who wasn't in the know, and Benowitz working a 24 00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:30.080 Klin Air Force base, and Benowitz was a scientist, and so he believed 25 00:02:30.080 --> 00:02:34.080 he was getting these signals and pictures of aliens. And Doty said, we 26 00:02:34.159 --> 00:02:38.560 wanted him to believe that so that the Russians wouldn't find out what he was 27 00:02:38.639 --> 00:02:43.039 really getting, which was signals and pictures of our secret projects here at Kirtland. 28 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:46.400 So we fed him a bunch of stuff about aliens. The guy got 29 00:02:46.439 --> 00:02:51.599 paranoid, essentially went crazy. Turned out years later that Bill Moore was working 30 00:02:51.639 --> 00:02:55.360 with Dody and helping him with all of this stuff. So very controversial issue. 31 00:02:57.159 --> 00:03:00.639 I've written something up and talked about it quite a bit, but I 32 00:03:00.639 --> 00:03:04.319 think the only one who's talked about it, probably more than I via a 33 00:03:04.479 --> 00:03:07.800 podcast is our guest today, which is Great Bishop. He has his own 34 00:03:07.879 --> 00:03:14.159 podcast called Radio Mysterioso, and like he says, he's been podcasting before it 35 00:03:14.280 --> 00:03:19.159 was called podcasting. So a big fan of Great Bishops. And you'll hear 36 00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:24.520 why when we talk more about all of this in just a minute. Yes, 37 00:03:24.639 --> 00:03:30.120 I have been trying to get Greg on my own show. His hours 38 00:03:30.159 --> 00:03:34.280 are his hours just do not line up with my show. Unfortunately, it's 39 00:03:34.280 --> 00:03:38.120 too bad because he's great. And this whole thing about Dodie and the misinformation, 40 00:03:38.199 --> 00:03:40.599 now I know he had Chris Lambright who's a friend of mine. He 41 00:03:40.680 --> 00:03:46.759 was on your show talking a bit about the Paul Benowitz case. What a 42 00:03:46.840 --> 00:03:51.199 convoluted mess, that whole thing, And it's really where Dulcie was first, 43 00:03:51.360 --> 00:03:57.560 you know, actually disinformation generated from MJ twelve thing and MJ twelve, that's 44 00:03:57.639 --> 00:04:00.599 right, the beginnings of that. Yeah, so we don't talk so much 45 00:04:00.719 --> 00:04:03.680 more. Pardon me, Bill Moore walks out, you know, I mean 46 00:04:03.879 --> 00:04:09.199 basically comes clean. It's in the interview. This is what we talk about 47 00:04:09.280 --> 00:04:13.199 with great rightship, So you can edit this out. No, I'm not 48 00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:19.480 going to know, all right, another awkward moment, but anyway, Yeah, 49 00:04:19.519 --> 00:04:23.120 I'm not going to edit it out. But you know you're talking what 50 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:28.120 you're discussing, you're obviously excited about too, because it is terribly interesting, 51 00:04:28.480 --> 00:04:32.279 and so I didn't want to spend the whole time talking about this. In 52 00:04:32.319 --> 00:04:35.240 fact, I want to have Great Bishop on later to talk more about this. 53 00:04:35.639 --> 00:04:39.560 But actually, to be honest, most of the show turned out to 54 00:04:39.600 --> 00:04:43.360 be talking about this because I wanted to talk about other things that Great Bishop 55 00:04:43.399 --> 00:04:46.920 is up to, because he just wrote a book called It Defies Language, 56 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:51.120 which is really cool too, with a lot of different stories about ufology, 57 00:04:51.240 --> 00:04:56.160 but a lot of it comes back to this for him. So and one 58 00:04:56.199 --> 00:04:59.279 of the reasons he's so important is he's one of the few people still talking 59 00:04:59.279 --> 00:05:02.319 to Bill Moore. So yeah, we'll get into all of that. Wow, 60 00:05:02.399 --> 00:05:05.839 fascinating, huh it is I didn't know that. I didn't know anyone 61 00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:10.600 was talking to Bill. Oh yeah, wait, yeah, he's the only 62 00:05:10.680 --> 00:05:16.319 one. So yep, you will enjoy the show as well. I will, 63 00:05:16.600 --> 00:05:21.120 yes, But before that, let's get into the news UFO news. 64 00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:25.720 Did it did did did it? Did? Did so? Go ahead, 65 00:05:26.879 --> 00:05:30.480 and what's the first story? You wanted to talk about there, Betty Well, 66 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:33.439 I think this is a great one. This is this happened all the 67 00:05:33.480 --> 00:05:39.959 way back on October two, twenty twelve, and it's another posting by Roger 68 00:05:40.040 --> 00:05:44.399 Marsh. He's digging through to find all these really interesting mofon case. This 69 00:05:44.560 --> 00:05:53.639 is case number forty three and five zero. Can be right, Let me 70 00:05:53.639 --> 00:06:00.120 sure I got that down. Oh, the witness says, the triangle UFO 71 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:05.399 emitted sound of horns and trumpets. Yeah, really bizarre. This is in 72 00:06:05.519 --> 00:06:09.720 Davis, California, where I know there's a university there. I used to 73 00:06:09.759 --> 00:06:15.360 drive by there. He was watching and videotaping with his phone a triangle shaped 74 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:19.439 UFO until his phone conked out. He only got about thirty one seconds I 75 00:06:19.480 --> 00:06:25.079 think now. His dog seemed very anxious and wanted to go outside. This 76 00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:30.240 is at one forty three am again on October second, twenty twelve, when 77 00:06:30.279 --> 00:06:33.800 this incident occurred. And this is a quote by him. I remember hearing 78 00:06:33.879 --> 00:06:39.240 a loud sound of what sounded like what seemed like horns or trumpets from all 79 00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:43.439 around, the witness stated, And I remember being very early in the morning, 80 00:06:43.480 --> 00:06:46.240 maybe two AM, and thinking, why isn't anyone else waking up to 81 00:06:46.279 --> 00:06:51.279 this sound. So he went out and he saw this triangular formation of lights, 82 00:06:51.800 --> 00:06:58.000 and you can see on the video that's posted on open Minds that there's 83 00:06:58.040 --> 00:07:02.439 like these flashing flash formation of lights. It's not navigation lights, not the 84 00:07:02.439 --> 00:07:06.800 way they flashed, because the center light is flashing as well. Really great, 85 00:07:08.160 --> 00:07:12.399 short little video, but this kind of reminds me of something you hear 86 00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:15.399 Linda multen Howe talking about how people are hearing these sounds of trumpets and horns. 87 00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:18.519 They're reporting it all over the world, which is kind of strange, 88 00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:23.519 you know, just another one of those strange phenomena. But it kind of 89 00:07:23.519 --> 00:07:28.800 reminded me of that, and it's definitely an interesting case. Check it out. 90 00:07:29.360 --> 00:07:31.240 Yeah, that is an interesting case. The video is pretty good. 91 00:07:32.199 --> 00:07:36.279 Some people were saying those are definitely airplane strobe lights, and I AM posted 92 00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:41.279 a video in the story of some strobe lights and it could be. I 93 00:07:41.319 --> 00:07:45.160 mean, you can put them wherever you want over your plane, and it 94 00:07:45.199 --> 00:07:50.639 does look stro similar. But so the video alone, I guess you can't 95 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:55.120 for sure and say it's not an aircraft with strobe lights. But it is 96 00:07:55.160 --> 00:08:00.160 a very vivid video, so people can take a look this object seem to 97 00:08:00.160 --> 00:08:03.399 be pretty close, and the California investigator, he even made some comments in 98 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:09.639 the story, and I talk about his comments. He very much feels like 99 00:08:09.759 --> 00:08:16.199 this was an unknown and something strange. So the trumpets thing, again, 100 00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:20.920 you can't hear these trumpets in the video. The witness said he saw these 101 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:24.519 things and heard the trumpets twice. So again, you know, it's hard 102 00:08:24.600 --> 00:08:30.360 because I haven't seen a convincing video of the trumpets thing. They all seem 103 00:08:30.480 --> 00:08:33.519 kind of dubious, and some of them have been proven to be hoaxes. 104 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:37.519 So so I don't know. But is it based on something real? Maybe 105 00:08:37.720 --> 00:08:43.360 I don't know, but that at least the the move on guy really thought 106 00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:46.080 this witness was was credible and that this was the real deal. But yeah, 107 00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:52.360 it's an interesting video. What kind of blowhearts would be hoaxing trumpet noises? 108 00:08:52.120 --> 00:08:56.080 What kind of blowhards are these aliens? Anyway? Yeah, that's true. 109 00:08:56.399 --> 00:09:00.840 Yeah, a bunch of blowhearts all over. No, that's I like 110 00:09:00.919 --> 00:09:05.720 that A couple things. I guess I'll get to this one first. I 111 00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:09.000 wanted to write a story about it, and I've done some research on it, 112 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:11.559 but you know what, I'm not going to have time. I got 113 00:09:11.559 --> 00:09:16.639 to get ready for Roswell tomorrow. Hopefully I might have time to write something 114 00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:20.399 on it tomorrow maybe, but just in case I don't, I'm going to 115 00:09:20.440 --> 00:09:24.720 talk about it anyway. I don't even have something up on the website about 116 00:09:24.759 --> 00:09:28.039 this, but some of you may have heard about it, and if not, 117 00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:33.120 then you'll hear about here, which is good. But essentially there's a 118 00:09:33.159 --> 00:09:37.480 story going on out there about this guy, Victor Vigiano. Have you heard 119 00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:41.279 this one? No, Victor Vigiani. So they had this Canadian kind of 120 00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:50.600 panel this weekend and Richard Dolan was there, Grant Cameron, some other Canadian 121 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:56.559 researchers, and the previous Defense Minister for Canada, Paul Hellier, was there. 122 00:09:56.960 --> 00:10:00.320 He's been at the IUFO c. Of course, hell You's subscribed to 123 00:10:00.360 --> 00:10:05.200 a lot of really fringe ideas in ufology. Unfortunately, he has no official 124 00:10:05.240 --> 00:10:09.440 story. He didn't investigate UFOs. He says a general told him that the 125 00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:15.320 Roswell thing was real. He hasn't identified who that is, but that's about 126 00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:20.240 the only thing he has that isn't outside of just kind of reading kind of 127 00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:26.360 the more fringe stuff on the internet. But during this Victor Vigiani, who 128 00:10:26.440 --> 00:10:31.639 has a newspaper kind of thing that he does in h and he really writes 129 00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:37.399 some really fringe, wild kind of stories and sometimes he just feels that aliens 130 00:10:37.399 --> 00:10:39.960 are here to attack and stuff. So like this this story that we just 131 00:10:41.080 --> 00:10:43.840 reviewed, if he were to write it, he would have said something like 132 00:10:45.240 --> 00:10:50.360 aliens attack Davis, California or something like that. And I hear he's a 133 00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:54.200 really nice guy. I think that's just genuinely what he feels is going on. 134 00:10:56.960 --> 00:11:01.679 So he made a comment in this meeting that I've got these files from 135 00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:05.559 Noorad. They're amazing. They prove that they're looking at aliens, and I 136 00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:11.000 am going to talk about these and share them with the world, even though 137 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:16.559 I can go to jail and get indicted. Any read part of a file 138 00:11:16.639 --> 00:11:22.159 that says any distribution of this kind of information threatens national security and violates the 139 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:28.039 Espionage Act of the United States. So it sounds really exciting, right, 140 00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:33.840 And then he finally gave these files to Roger marsh again of Moufon who posted 141 00:11:33.879 --> 00:11:41.120 them. But like always, major disappointment. It's none of that stuff. 142 00:11:41.159 --> 00:11:43.840 So these files, which aren't great, they're Canadian files, so they're interesting, 143 00:11:43.879 --> 00:11:48.919 they're older files. I'm actually going to be speaking about some of these 144 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:54.480 files at the Moufon Symposium in August in Orlando. I'm going to be talking 145 00:11:54.480 --> 00:12:01.600 about government UFO agencies and Canada for a small period of time had an official 146 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:05.879 UFO investigation and some of these files stem from that. But they're just kind 147 00:12:05.879 --> 00:12:09.399 of like the blue book files. Nothing too exciting, but some interesting cases 148 00:12:09.440 --> 00:12:16.840 that they investigated, so nothing too interesting there. He also cited a letter, 149 00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:20.360 and this is the only piece of new information. He wrote a letter 150 00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:24.399 saying he wants the UFO information from nora AD, which is the North American 151 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:30.600 like radar command sort of thing where they look watch space and radar and everything. 152 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:35.080 And they sent him back and said, you know, we'll send you 153 00:12:35.159 --> 00:12:41.120 some material. And essentially they also talked about what are called toa's tracks of 154 00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:50.039 interest. We get about eighteen hundred tracks of interests of which you know we've 155 00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:54.000 had and we scramble like about seventy five jets to check out these things. 156 00:12:56.039 --> 00:12:58.559 So he's like saying, you know, this proves that they're watching aliens, 157 00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:03.320 and their chain saying aliens, well, not really. If you look up 158 00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:05.639 the definition of the tracks of interest, which is something you know, you 159 00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:09.879 can go to John Greenwald's site and find this. You can. Chris Rukowski 160 00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:15.360 talked about all of this actually at our UFO Congress, and he's got all 161 00:13:15.399 --> 00:13:18.320 of these files as well, and he showed some of them at the congress. 162 00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:26.200 They are like an unknown airplane, so it's actually a drug trafficking terminology. 163 00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:31.960 So if they see a plane that they think is often you know, 164 00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:35.159 you don't know what it is, it's a track of interest. In fact, 165 00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:37.679 I looked up one of these in John greenwald site and it was a 166 00:13:37.720 --> 00:13:41.960 plane where it's transponder wasn't working, so they didn't know what it was. 167 00:13:41.320 --> 00:13:46.399 They found out it was a plane's transponder not working, so that plane got 168 00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:50.679 that transponder fixed. So not as exciting as everything he's saying. But what's 169 00:13:50.759 --> 00:13:54.200 kind of cool is in the letter it says we can't give you details on 170 00:13:54.240 --> 00:14:00.159 these toise because it's still classified. However, we can tell you that we 171 00:14:00.200 --> 00:14:05.399 get eighteen hundred tois and seventy five scrambles, So that's interesting. But it's 172 00:14:05.399 --> 00:14:09.799 hardly anything he's going to get in trouble for. It's not anything that hasn't 173 00:14:09.799 --> 00:14:20.120 been out there. Before, so just the delivery was completely way over exaggerated. 174 00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:26.919 So you're going to see these extreme over exaggerations online. But if you 175 00:14:26.919 --> 00:14:30.279 want more of these details, I kind of outlined all of this at the 176 00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:35.159 h and the Open Mind UFO news group, so you can see our conversation 177 00:14:35.320 --> 00:14:41.200 about it there. And I saw alabambamamof I'm posted with Richard Hoffman as their 178 00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:46.840 director, and we talked about it there as well. But just just to 179 00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:48.519 be careful, you're going to people will run across it because it's going to 180 00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:54.240 be all over the internet, and unfortunately the information isn't being vetted before it's 181 00:14:54.279 --> 00:14:58.399 being posted out there. But Roger did a pretty good job actually accurately summarizing. 182 00:14:58.440 --> 00:15:03.799 I got conf used because what Roger had stated was not necessarily what you 183 00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:07.440 know, I felt Victor was saying, and so I was really confused. 184 00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:11.919 But Roger was actually very accurate in his statement. So so there you go. 185 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:16.720 Yeah, and he'll run across it. The other story I wanted to 186 00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:20.360 talk about real quick here Did you see this one? A ten thousand dollars 187 00:15:20.440 --> 00:15:26.519 reward? Yeah? To decipher the Roswell UFO memo. Have you ever had 188 00:15:26.559 --> 00:15:33.039 anyone on to talk about that memo. No I thought about having Rudiac on. 189 00:15:33.639 --> 00:15:37.000 I think I tried to reach out to him before. Yeah, yeah, 190 00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:41.080 because as far as I know, you know, he was the only 191 00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:45.360 person that got as far with it as I mean, he got further with 192 00:15:45.399 --> 00:15:50.960 it than anyone else did. And I looked at your article about that, 193 00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:56.360 and I see the you know, them getting words out of I don't know 194 00:15:56.440 --> 00:16:02.000 how, you know, I can't really see those words, any of them. 195 00:16:03.279 --> 00:16:04.679 A couple of them, like V or something like that, you can 196 00:16:04.799 --> 00:16:07.799 kind of figure out. But some of those words are really difficult, and 197 00:16:07.879 --> 00:16:12.600 I don't know if there's any technology that can possibly crack that. Yeah, 198 00:16:12.759 --> 00:16:17.840 that's a really good point. So here's the deal, and that's the issue 199 00:16:18.200 --> 00:16:23.600 essentially. You know this memo. There's Roger Raimi, General Roger Rami and 200 00:16:23.960 --> 00:16:30.559 Colonel Thomas du Boy are in this famous picture from Roswell and they are sitting 201 00:16:30.559 --> 00:16:36.840 there with debris that looks like a weather balloon and Roger Rami is kneeling down 202 00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:40.879 and he's got a memo in his hand. Now, these are pictures that 203 00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:47.399 were released on July eighth, when the Army said because it was the Army 204 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:49.039 Air Force, Air Force was still part of the Army at this time. 205 00:16:49.320 --> 00:16:52.440 The Army said, oh, no, that wasn't a spaceship that crashed in 206 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:56.360 Roswell. That was actually a weather balloon. And this is the day after 207 00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:59.960 they said the opposite, They said, no, that was a space ship. 208 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:07.039 So, you know, Jesse Marcel Junior or I'm sorry senior, who 209 00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:10.960 was the first intelligence officer to look at the debris, is also in some 210 00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:14.480 of these pictures with the debris. He later said that, you know, 211 00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:18.920 the debris, the weather balloon debris was not what I found in the desert, 212 00:17:18.440 --> 00:17:22.119 but they told me to say it was so like a good soldier, 213 00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:27.319 I did what I was told. And Colonel Dubois, who's actually also in 214 00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:32.680 the picture, he went on to become a general also, I believe he 215 00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:37.559 later has said that that weather balloon was not what was found in the desert, 216 00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:41.480 that was put there by Roger Ramie, so that it wasn't what they 217 00:17:41.519 --> 00:17:47.559 found. And later the Air Force in nineteen ninety four put out a report 218 00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:52.240 about Roswell and they admitted that that weather balloon material was not what was found 219 00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:57.599 in Roswell, but they said, we believe that Roger Raimie switched out the 220 00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:04.799 debris because what was actually found in Roswell was debris from a Project Mogul balloon. 221 00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:08.920 And this is a balloon with some sound equipment that was monitoring to listen 222 00:18:08.960 --> 00:18:14.480 to Russian nuclear testing. Now that was a secret project at the time. 223 00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:19.680 However, that would also be debris that would be easily identifiable. You would 224 00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:25.920 think no one would mistake that for something strange. So that's kind of the 225 00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:30.519 story. And however, in this photograph I was talking about with Ryth Raimi 226 00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:37.279 and Dubois, David Rudiak took a look at this and zoomed in and he 227 00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:41.880 felt that, you know, with the modern technology being able to scan the 228 00:18:41.559 --> 00:18:45.720 slide and stuff like that, he would be he could tell some letters that 229 00:18:45.759 --> 00:18:51.079 were in the memo, and he feels at least pretty confident about these two 230 00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:53.440 phrases. One of the phrases in the memo, he says, says and 231 00:18:53.559 --> 00:18:57.559 the victims of the wreck, and the other says in the disc they will 232 00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:02.680 ship. He also says, you can see weather balloon. So that's important 233 00:19:02.680 --> 00:19:07.839 because weather Balloon shows that the memo is referencing this Roswell thing. He says 234 00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:12.759 the disc they will ship refers to a disc, so he feels that proves 235 00:19:12.759 --> 00:19:18.359 a disc was found. And like I said, possibly more startling is he 236 00:19:18.440 --> 00:19:23.720 feels the victim of the res corroborates some witness testimony that they were et bodies 237 00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:27.759 found at the wreck. So that's about, you know, he's been able 238 00:19:27.799 --> 00:19:33.480 to decipher what he feels the memo says. However, Kevin Randall in this 239 00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:37.759 recent blog post that he was discussing with a friend of his that that's not 240 00:19:38.039 --> 00:19:41.400 enough. You know, David Rudiak has done some great work, but he's 241 00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:45.400 not you know, you need to take this to a lab or someone incredible 242 00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:52.640 so that you know, the mainstream community can accept that what is said in 243 00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:55.839 this memo. But that would cost a lot of money, and it's just 244 00:19:56.440 --> 00:20:00.480 someone doesn't have that money. And so this person said, well, you 245 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:03.359 know what, let's put up I'll put up a ten thousand dollars reward, 246 00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:07.720 so then that person could get reimbursed if they do go get this analyzed. 247 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:14.839 And so that that's what created this ten thousand dollars reward. So now if 248 00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:18.119 you go to a lab, you take this photo, take it to a 249 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:22.519 lab, have the pay the lab to get this deciphered or some of their 250 00:20:22.599 --> 00:20:29.960 photographic expert or expert in this arena and pay for that to get deciphered, 251 00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:36.319 then you know, you could win ten thousand dollars. Some people have argued, 252 00:20:36.359 --> 00:20:41.680 well, no one's going to completely agree on the what the information says, 253 00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:45.680 and Randall says, well, we all agreed on the rogersreel slides what 254 00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:51.880 the placard had said. Once that was deciphered, everybody, especially who listens 255 00:20:51.920 --> 00:20:56.640 to our shows, knows what that debacle was all about. But when the 256 00:20:56.680 --> 00:21:03.200 picture with the plat was shared with the public, it was quickly determined what 257 00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:07.839 it said, and it was quickly accepted except for, as Randall says, 258 00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:12.079 by the people who had a vested interest in that picture being an alien, 259 00:21:12.119 --> 00:21:17.240 which no one felt it which most felt it was not. So And you 260 00:21:17.319 --> 00:21:22.240 and I, for instance, agree what the placard says. So Kevin Randall 261 00:21:22.279 --> 00:21:26.759 being who he is, a trustworthy person, and if he's the guy to 262 00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:33.000 make that determination, then you know, I think I have faith in Kevin. 263 00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:36.880 So yeah, it's kind of an interesting situation. I wonder what if 264 00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:38.880 anyone will take him up. And I don't know what kind of lab you 265 00:21:38.920 --> 00:21:44.319 would go to. Well, you know, the FBI or CIA definitely has 266 00:21:44.359 --> 00:21:47.799 a lab that would crack something like that, but I don't know how you 267 00:21:47.799 --> 00:21:52.160 would get access to them. I don't know how many other places would because 268 00:21:52.200 --> 00:21:56.640 it would have to be someone doing serious investigations for like national security, that 269 00:21:56.720 --> 00:22:00.519 would have the top of the line tech tech for that time of work. 270 00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:07.160 I believe there are places that do testing. I think you and I talked 271 00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:12.559 about that before that will certain type of tests and are very expensive. Ten 272 00:22:12.599 --> 00:22:18.119 thousand dollars may not even near cover it. It's very possible, you know. 273 00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:22.079 I always think about how what a blunder that was for him to have 274 00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:26.759 the memo in his hand that actually would spell that out. I mean, 275 00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:30.319 they never probably would have thought that technology would come along that could crack something 276 00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:34.599 like that. Yeah, and I don't know. Maybe technology in the future 277 00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:40.920 will even you know, get better to where maybe we don't have at least 278 00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:45.440 easily available or readily available the technology to do this right now, but mainly 279 00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:49.200 in the future we will. You would think someone be able to decipher it. 280 00:22:49.240 --> 00:22:52.400 And you know, interesting enough, in that report that I talked about 281 00:22:52.400 --> 00:23:00.720 where they admitted that the weather balloon wasn't real, they said that they the 282 00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:06.880 video, the photo analyzed, and their lab could not decipher what was in 283 00:23:06.920 --> 00:23:10.599 the memo. So it's interesting that the Air Force said they did that, 284 00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:14.880 and it is a bit hard to believe that they couldn't decipher anything. But 285 00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:18.640 I don't know, you can take a look. I'm not good at deciphering 286 00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:21.000 this type of stuff. So I'm kind of like you. I kind of 287 00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:25.160 feel like I can't see victims of the wreck and Fort Worth, Texas, 288 00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:30.400 but only kind of. I don't. I can't say for sure. Yeah, 289 00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:37.359 I'm sure there's some type of probability program that will take you know that 290 00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:41.480 in these labs, because if you can't really spell it accurately, I mean, 291 00:23:41.480 --> 00:23:45.599 you can't really see these things accurately, but it would probably do a 292 00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:48.799 percentage and a probability of a word. That's probably what it'll boil down to. 293 00:23:49.160 --> 00:23:53.319 Hopefully it's not a memo about his lunch. You know, I would 294 00:23:53.400 --> 00:23:57.559 like, you know, and then he talks about the weather buildin because I'm 295 00:23:57.559 --> 00:24:03.000 stuck at this stupid weather but press conference. But after that, I would 296 00:24:03.079 --> 00:24:08.519 like a you know, coffee on a saucer. Yeah, victims of the 297 00:24:08.599 --> 00:24:12.559 lunch, Yeah, exactly, that's what it says, Yeah, so good, 298 00:24:12.920 --> 00:24:18.319 we'll find out interesting. All right, Well, I guess we will 299 00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:22.559 conclude. Of course, there's more news at Openminds dot tv, where we 300 00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:27.400 post UFO news daily. But did you have anything else, any big announcement? 301 00:24:29.160 --> 00:24:33.200 Yes, I do. Oh wow this week. Wow. I had 302 00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:37.319 a special guest on my show last week and it's still up on my website. 303 00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:41.640 And I would love for the listeners who kind of liked this guy I'm 304 00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:47.960 talking with today. Alejandro was on my show last week and I thought we 305 00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:49.880 had a really good time. I've gotten a lot of positive feedback, a 306 00:24:49.880 --> 00:24:53.839 lot of email from that, and so go over to podcastufo dot com and 307 00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:57.640 you'll see the show right there with Alejandro and I. It was a lot 308 00:24:57.640 --> 00:25:03.759 of fun. Cool. Did you get some negative feedback? Not one single 309 00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:10.119 one, which is very unusual. That is unusual. That freaks me out 310 00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:11.839 a little bit. I know, it is kind of scary. Yeah, 311 00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:15.720 something's going to happen. Well, that's cool. That's really good to hear. 312 00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:21.519 Yeah, I know. So I'm going to be headed to Roswell in 313 00:25:21.640 --> 00:25:26.599 a couple of days for the Roswell event out there, and I'm going to 314 00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:30.880 be speaking for actually I usually speak for the UFO Museum, but I'm actually 315 00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:34.960 going to be down the street speaking for the Roswell Daily Record, the newspaper 316 00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:40.599 that had that you know, iconic front page about the flying Saucer that you 317 00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:44.519 see back in nineteen forty seven. So I'm gonna be speaking for the Roswell 318 00:25:44.599 --> 00:25:48.279 Daily Record. This is the first time they're putting something together and it's kind 319 00:25:48.279 --> 00:25:52.960 of fun. I'll be there with Colonel Charles Halt, Colonel John Alexander Lee 320 00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:59.839 Spiegel, Nick Pope, so some really cool people that I'll be speaking with. 321 00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:03.279 Than Keith Aram who did the Phoenix Incident movie, will be with us 322 00:26:03.319 --> 00:26:07.799 there, So it's going to be a lot of fun. Well, yes, 323 00:26:07.880 --> 00:26:11.680 I hope you say hi to those folks for me. And I had 324 00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:15.960 a email exchange with Chuck Halt the other day and he has a new book 325 00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:18.799 coming out in about ninety days or so. Oh yeah, it's kind of 326 00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:25.880 his side of the story in this battle between yeah, the convoluted Battle of 327 00:26:26.359 --> 00:26:32.400 Rendall schimp Forrest. Yeah, exactly so. And you know what, Colonel 328 00:26:32.480 --> 00:26:37.680 Charles Halt is a colonel and everything he witnessed was witnessed by multiple witnesses, 329 00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:42.480 so He's in a very strong position, and I think it's silly to second 330 00:26:42.519 --> 00:26:48.640 guess the importance of his testimony and how his testimony and the others with multiple 331 00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:56.519 witnesses is much stronger and more credible testimony than despite what you think of it. 332 00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:00.119 And I don't want to taint anybody's thoughts or any thing, but at 333 00:27:00.200 --> 00:27:07.720 least not today of Peter Peter Robbins's friend Larry Warren, who was the first 334 00:27:07.799 --> 00:27:11.119 to come out with the information, but his his what he had seen is 335 00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:18.920 pretty much uncorroborated, so it's it's a story worth telling. But yeah, 336 00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:23.039 well that's where you and I met in North Carolina, I think three years 337 00:27:23.079 --> 00:27:29.440 ago. Yeah, and we both saw Chuck go up there. He likes 338 00:27:29.480 --> 00:27:33.480 to be called Chuck in person. But Charles Holt, you know, talked 339 00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:36.480 about the incident, and I'm telling you, I had goosebumps. I mean 340 00:27:36.559 --> 00:27:41.720 that he if anyone is believable, that man is believable. Well what's kind 341 00:27:41.720 --> 00:27:45.920 of cool too, and I love doing this is that they a lot of 342 00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:51.519 these guys don't have similar perspectives, not the exact same perspectives. Colonel Alexander, 343 00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:56.240 Charles Hall, Nick Pope, they don't all agree. Although they all 344 00:27:56.279 --> 00:28:00.880 worked in the government, they all had UFO related sort of things that they 345 00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:04.559 were involved with. Colonel Hall not necessarily, although being an insider, he 346 00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:11.559 looked into UFOs independently, but with some other colleagues that we're in intelligence, 347 00:28:11.079 --> 00:28:15.559 so they all have some special insight. But they don't all agree, and 348 00:28:15.640 --> 00:28:22.240 so I'm definitely going to have fun pointing out those differences and not to get 349 00:28:22.279 --> 00:28:23.759 them to argue with each other, because that's what's great about these guys. 350 00:28:23.799 --> 00:28:32.240 They're all highly professional, but to try to kind of get to the truth 351 00:28:32.279 --> 00:28:36.279 of the matter and that, you know, what are the different perspectives that 352 00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:38.160 they each have, What do they agree on, what do they not agree 353 00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:42.920 on? Because you know, the truth is somewhere in there. So it's 354 00:28:42.920 --> 00:28:45.480 going to be a lot of fun. I highly respect all of these people 355 00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:49.880 and I'm just really happy to be a part of it. And it's going 356 00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:53.599 to be really cool. Great, we'll have a great time. What are 357 00:28:53.599 --> 00:29:00.160 you going to do? Oh July fourth, Yeah, I'm actually Oh you 358 00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:07.279 are I'm away from home. Yeah, I'm away from home and in the 359 00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:11.839 fine arts and antiques world doing a big auction coming up on the eighth. 360 00:29:11.960 --> 00:29:18.279 So I am planted down in Massachusetts at a beautiful home. I think I 361 00:29:18.359 --> 00:29:23.119 showed you a picture of Paul Revere silver. Oh yeah, yeah. Anyway, 362 00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:27.759 okay, awesome, we'll have fun. And July second, I think 363 00:29:27.799 --> 00:29:33.720 it's World UFO Day. Okay, that's right. Yeah, So keep an 364 00:29:33.720 --> 00:29:38.319 eye on your social media because last year we did a discount for the UFO 365 00:29:38.440 --> 00:29:42.599 Congress if you we put out a code for July or for World UFO Day. 366 00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:47.519 So I'm trying to arrange the same thing this year. So keep an 367 00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:52.319 eye on the social media and I'll send information out about that there. So 368 00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:57.440 keep an eye at Open Minds Production on Facebook and our Open Minds TV on 369 00:29:57.480 --> 00:30:03.599 Twitter. Keep your eyes to the sky, keep your ass to the sky 370 00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:08.519 like that. I like that. All right, Thank you so much Martin 371 00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:14.200 for joining us once again, and you have a lovely July fourth weekend. 372 00:30:14.279 --> 00:30:18.839 We won't have a show next week because of the holiday, so I apologize, 373 00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:22.519 but we'll be back in a couple of weeks. Have a great one 374 00:30:22.680 --> 00:30:26.000 you too. Let's go ahead and talk to Greg. I am very happy 375 00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:32.440 to welcome Greg Bishop to the show. Hello, how are you hey? 376 00:30:32.480 --> 00:30:37.000 How are you doing good? I'm doing great and super excited to have you 377 00:30:37.039 --> 00:30:41.880 on. And you know what, You're another person who I could swear I 378 00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:45.960 do this often. I could swear that we had done another show, but 379 00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:49.920 when I looked in my archives and stuff, I guess we haven't. Well, 380 00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:52.279 you get to the point where you talk to so many people, I 381 00:30:52.279 --> 00:30:56.000 mean, you don't even remember. People say they've been on my show, 382 00:30:56.039 --> 00:30:57.000 and I go, what really, And I have to go back and look 383 00:30:57.079 --> 00:31:03.559 for the you know, because I've been I've been interviewing people in various formats 384 00:31:03.559 --> 00:31:07.680 since ninety seven, I think, wow. Yeah, And first I was 385 00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:11.920 on a pirate radio station and then internet radio, and it's been that since 386 00:31:12.039 --> 00:31:17.519 two thousand. October of two thousand, I started my internet podcast type show, 387 00:31:17.519 --> 00:31:21.720 and then podcasting actually started being podcasting in two thousand and six or seven, 388 00:31:21.799 --> 00:31:25.160 so it's been that since then. Yeah. Wow, see, I 389 00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:30.079 thought I had you on to talk about because we have our shared interest in 390 00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:37.279 Although it might have been your book, it's one of the first real books 391 00:31:37.319 --> 00:31:41.960 that I read on it, but the whole Richard Dodie situation with Bill Moore 392 00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:48.559 and everything, and and yeah, your book Project Beta is one of the 393 00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:55.359 few you know, thorough books on that whole situation. So when I was 394 00:31:55.400 --> 00:31:59.960 researching, I relied upon it a lot, you know, and always reference 395 00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:05.960 the book when I when I talk about it. But we'll touch on it, 396 00:32:06.039 --> 00:32:09.200 well, I think later. But at some point it would be fun 397 00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:14.640 and i'd be great to where we'll do a show where we'll talk specifically about 398 00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:20.519 just Dody and more and go over that thoroughly in the future. Yeah, 399 00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:22.960 I don't usually say anything that makes anybody happy, but then I'm I'm ever 400 00:32:23.039 --> 00:32:28.359 so slightly biased because Bill's still a friend of mine. So yeah, so 401 00:32:28.519 --> 00:32:31.559 I'll probably beat you up a little bit about that. You should so, 402 00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:38.119 but still you've definitely got some unique insights because of that, And well, 403 00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:43.880 I guess to start off, you know, they're a big reason that I'm 404 00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:45.160 having you on is because I want to help you promote your book. It 405 00:32:45.240 --> 00:32:50.839 defies language, and in this book you have a lot of different essays on 406 00:32:51.279 --> 00:32:54.920 the that you've written over the years which touch on many many topics. And 407 00:32:55.279 --> 00:33:00.680 Bill Moore and Richard Dody is one of many of the topics you here. 408 00:33:00.920 --> 00:33:02.680 But yeah, just lightly, I guess we could talk about it now. 409 00:33:02.799 --> 00:33:08.960 And Bill Moore, for people who don't know was one of the guys who 410 00:33:09.039 --> 00:33:15.920 brought Roswell to made Roswell famous, right, I mean he wrote the first 411 00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:22.559 book, which leaned heavily on Stanton Friedman's research as well. Yes, but 412 00:33:23.200 --> 00:33:28.279 Stanton wasn't credited for the book. I know Stanton has told me why, 413 00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:30.480 But do you remember why that is? No? I can't remember why. 414 00:33:30.519 --> 00:33:34.960 Maybe it had something to do with the publishing contract or something they wanted to 415 00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:37.920 They mainly wanted Charles Berlitz's name on there because he made a big hit with 416 00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:44.599 the Bermuda Triangle book and I guess a few other mystery books, and so 417 00:33:44.720 --> 00:33:51.839 they basically paired more with him, and then more actually went to Roswell in 418 00:33:52.160 --> 00:33:57.200 seventy eight. I think he was the first person to I believe, the 419 00:33:57.200 --> 00:34:00.480 first person to go there and actually talk to people. I don't know if 420 00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:04.680 stan had done that. He had talked to Jesse Marcel and done some background 421 00:34:04.680 --> 00:34:09.000 research. I'm not sure if he actually traveled there and interviewed people. Bill 422 00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:14.679 did. He gave me a few of his interview tapes from nineteen seventy eight. 423 00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:17.599 I still have them. Wow, So I've actually got people talking about 424 00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:22.159 these things for the first time since, you know, since nineteen forty seven. 425 00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:25.440 There's just two of them. Yeah, I would like to get them. 426 00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:29.960 I'm trying to figure out how to play them back without getting them destroyed 427 00:34:30.519 --> 00:34:32.599 and digitize them and then just make them available for everybody. I mean, 428 00:34:32.599 --> 00:34:37.960 I'm not going to sell them or anything. They're research materials, so they'd 429 00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:39.760 be interesting. And I've heard arguments where people are saying, yeah, you 430 00:34:39.800 --> 00:34:45.840 know, it was what's the teletype operator at the radio station Lydia Sleppie. 431 00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:51.639 I think the one that was told that was broadcasting or sending a news report 432 00:34:51.639 --> 00:34:55.039 out and then she got a call saying to stop it. And there's a 433 00:34:55.039 --> 00:34:58.360 lot of debate over what she was told, when she was told it, 434 00:34:58.440 --> 00:35:01.119 what exactly she was told. I've got a tape of an interview with her 435 00:35:01.119 --> 00:35:06.280 from nineteen seventy eight. It's like, maybe i'd better digitize that. Yeah, 436 00:35:06.400 --> 00:35:08.239 well, let's talk a little bit about Roswell. What it's the fifty 437 00:35:08.320 --> 00:35:14.559 ninth anniversary this year, not this weekend, but well, when the show 438 00:35:14.599 --> 00:35:16.880 comes out Monday, it will be this weekend. I'll be heading to Roswell 439 00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:23.159 for like the twelfth year in the row to go and talk about UFOs and 440 00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:27.239 stuff. I don't know if it's the twelfth, but it's a lot and 441 00:35:27.679 --> 00:35:36.519 for the Roswell Daily Record. But you know, I guess from that perspective 442 00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:40.639 early on, I guess there's this perception. I think there's a lot of 443 00:35:40.679 --> 00:35:45.480 misperceptions about how Roswell really got to be big and famous and really Bill Morri's 444 00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:50.280 book was a big deal, but it was more than just an interview with 445 00:35:50.360 --> 00:35:57.239 Jesse Marcel, right, they interviewed many people. Yeah, they interviewed God, 446 00:35:57.280 --> 00:36:00.679 I can't remember who else. I think at least mac Rassel or one 447 00:36:00.679 --> 00:36:09.239 of the Brasels, their neighbors, the proctors Lydia Slepie. Of course I 448 00:36:09.280 --> 00:36:12.880 can't remember everybody interviewed in that book. And then, of course, you 449 00:36:12.880 --> 00:36:16.320 know, the second, the Schmid and Randall book went out and interviewed more 450 00:36:16.360 --> 00:36:22.039 people. But Moore's book was the first more and Burlit's book was the first 451 00:36:22.039 --> 00:36:29.199 in nineteen seventy eight or nine called the Roswell Incident, which is, you 452 00:36:29.239 --> 00:36:31.000 know, if that book hadn't come out, I sort of doubt there'd be 453 00:36:31.000 --> 00:36:37.519 a Roswell Festival right now, right because it might have been ignored up to 454 00:36:37.559 --> 00:36:45.119 now. Maybe not, but it certainly put it on the map as a 455 00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:51.559 as an event to be studied, looked at, and for better or worse, 456 00:36:51.599 --> 00:36:54.320 turned into what it has now kind of as a touchdowe if nobody, 457 00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:59.480 if you've never heard of UFOs ever, don't care about them. You know 458 00:36:59.519 --> 00:37:01.360 what roz Well is. So that's uh, you know, I think that's 459 00:37:01.400 --> 00:37:07.760 the it's basically said in the same breath with any any other famous paranormal anything 460 00:37:07.880 --> 00:37:14.280 is. So it's kind of weird that nobody he said more as such a 461 00:37:14.280 --> 00:37:16.480 persona and on grata, that nobody really even mentioned as his name, or 462 00:37:16.519 --> 00:37:19.800 the fact that if he hadn't written that book, they wouldn't be having that 463 00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:22.480 festival there probably, yeah, which is funny, and we'll get into that. 464 00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:25.679 And that's one of the things I guess that fascinated me about the whole 465 00:37:25.760 --> 00:37:32.760 Richard Doley Billmore situation is that I feel and we'll see if you feel similar, 466 00:37:34.719 --> 00:37:38.239 is that the whole situation got swept under the rug. It's not like 467 00:37:38.280 --> 00:37:45.800 anybody forgave Bill Moore for uh. And we'll get into this that people who 468 00:37:45.800 --> 00:37:49.599 have listened to the show quite a bit know that Bill Moore it turned out 469 00:37:49.800 --> 00:37:53.880 was, you know, working with Richard Doty who was an Air Force worked 470 00:37:53.880 --> 00:37:59.760 for Air Force Special Investigations and they were hoaxing information and other things. And 471 00:38:00.119 --> 00:38:04.199 will get your perspective on that. But that's what your book is about Project 472 00:38:04.199 --> 00:38:09.360 Beta. But he hasn't been forgiven. But it's not like people don't you 473 00:38:09.400 --> 00:38:15.159 know, a lot of the big researchers don't necessarily take it upon themselves to 474 00:38:15.199 --> 00:38:19.760 spend a lot of efforts. Some do, but most don't to disparage him. 475 00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:22.000 But they just just don't talk about him or that situation at all. 476 00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:25.679 No, they don't because they've got, you know, a lot of good 477 00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:32.119 information was uncovered for the first time by Freedman and more to put together that 478 00:38:32.199 --> 00:38:37.239 book. But you know, they're so angry at him as what they see 479 00:38:37.239 --> 00:38:42.159 as turncoat behavior that they don't want to acknowledge it, which is it's a 480 00:38:42.239 --> 00:38:45.880 very it's a very strange situation. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. 481 00:38:45.760 --> 00:38:51.239 And I guess from your perspective looking at and knowing that you're a discerning, 482 00:38:51.480 --> 00:38:54.800 you know, researcher, you're not someone who just is like many who 483 00:38:55.599 --> 00:39:00.559 if it's labeled UFOs and somebody writes about it, then it must be true. 484 00:39:00.519 --> 00:39:04.360 You know, you're you're more careful with how you look at things, 485 00:39:05.599 --> 00:39:09.960 having access to some of Bill Moore's interviews from that time period that others don't. 486 00:39:10.239 --> 00:39:14.480 I mean, what do you What are your perceptions of the Riswell case 487 00:39:16.360 --> 00:39:20.360 at this point, since I haven't thought about it in so many years. 488 00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:22.679 The perception of it is well, because the thing is, it's to me, 489 00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:27.599 it's like the Kennedy assassination, at least as it stands right now. 490 00:39:27.639 --> 00:39:34.519 There's there's a lot of evidence in a lot of directions, and you can 491 00:39:34.599 --> 00:39:38.000 place whatever your belief system is on that evidence and find plenty of evidence to 492 00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:45.519 back it up. And I'm kind of undecided about it. I'm kind of 493 00:39:45.639 --> 00:39:49.760 doubt that it was something from outer space that crashed with aliens in it. 494 00:39:49.840 --> 00:39:52.840 I kind of doubt it. I haven't made a hard and fast decision on 495 00:39:52.880 --> 00:40:00.800 it. But the thing is that I think there's until somebody says something about 496 00:40:00.840 --> 00:40:05.480 it, somebody who knew what was going on actually says something, and it's 497 00:40:05.519 --> 00:40:10.400 corroborated by other people and backed up by some kind of documentation which might be 498 00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:15.800 really hard to find that might have been destroyed. It's going to be really 499 00:40:15.880 --> 00:40:19.000 hard to tell whether it was what people, you know, what a lot 500 00:40:19.039 --> 00:40:22.440 of proponents think it was, which was, you know, some sort of 501 00:40:22.440 --> 00:40:30.280 extraterrestrials crashing here in some sort of structured craft. Well, I'm sure, 502 00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:31.960 and I don't think i'll ever be sure, and I don't really mind. 503 00:40:34.280 --> 00:40:38.199 Yeah, which is funny because that perspective is what upsets people. And I 504 00:40:38.360 --> 00:40:42.679 understand that because I was just talking with someone the other day about this, 505 00:40:43.639 --> 00:40:46.840 because he was asking me my perspective on things and he was shocked to hear 506 00:40:46.920 --> 00:40:52.239 I don't believe everything. But like I said, first of all, my 507 00:40:52.280 --> 00:41:00.920 beliefs are secondary and I'm pretty much agnostic about everything, and that I don't 508 00:41:00.960 --> 00:41:05.239 know for sure. It's possible, but I don't know, And like you, 509 00:41:05.599 --> 00:41:07.719 I'm okay with that. Yeah, I'm totally okay with it. I 510 00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:14.840 mean, that's a if you want to talk about a true skeptical viewpoint, 511 00:41:15.159 --> 00:41:19.639 I think a true skeptical view still there. Yeah, Yeah, I think 512 00:41:19.639 --> 00:41:23.840 a true skeptical viewpoint is I am going to only make a decision on something 513 00:41:23.840 --> 00:41:29.440 when I have so much overwhelming evidence that it's impossible for me to remain agnostic 514 00:41:30.079 --> 00:41:34.480 and for UFOs that I don't think that's happened with almost anything. The only 515 00:41:34.559 --> 00:41:37.639 thing I'm not totally agnostic about is the fact that people see things that are 516 00:41:37.719 --> 00:41:43.519 unexplainable. I'm pretty sure that happens. I'm pretty sure that's happened a lot. 517 00:41:43.760 --> 00:41:46.679 I don't know what the explanation is for it. There's probably hundreds of 518 00:41:46.679 --> 00:41:52.280 explanations for different things that happen to people and things they've seen, whether they 519 00:41:52.360 --> 00:41:58.960 range from extraterrestrials to you know, underground civilizations to you know, creations of 520 00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:04.039 your own mind based on what you saw all these things. But you know 521 00:42:04.280 --> 00:42:07.280 you have to you know, with this field and almost any of these things, 522 00:42:07.320 --> 00:42:10.960 anything that's not really people haven't made a decision on yet as a collectively, 523 00:42:12.599 --> 00:42:15.079 you can't really come down on one side or the other because then you 524 00:42:15.159 --> 00:42:20.159 have to start defending a position, and especially with UFOs, there's when once 525 00:42:20.159 --> 00:42:22.400 you start defending a position, there are hordes of people that have come out 526 00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:25.119 and point out all the parts of your argument that are wrong, and and 527 00:42:25.159 --> 00:42:29.920 they'll be pretty much correct, right, So you have to keep it, 528 00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:31.880 you know. That's all open minds is called open minds. I think you 529 00:42:31.960 --> 00:42:37.119 just you you keep your options open until like I said, there's just so 530 00:42:37.239 --> 00:42:45.960 much evidence that you can't really you can't really hold a you know, agnostic 531 00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:47.920 position anymore, where you have to say I think this is I think this 532 00:42:47.960 --> 00:42:52.360 is what happened, and I'm pretty sure that I'm going to keep it this 533 00:42:52.400 --> 00:42:55.159 way and then be able to change your opinion if more information comes up. 534 00:42:55.159 --> 00:42:59.079 That's the other thing. You have to be open to new information even if 535 00:42:59.079 --> 00:43:01.679 it doesn't agree with your biases, and see how it holds up. And 536 00:43:01.719 --> 00:43:06.360 that's that's a little bit of work. Yeah. You know, someone mentioned 537 00:43:06.360 --> 00:43:08.599 in a forum, actually there's a there's an argument, and I try not 538 00:43:08.639 --> 00:43:14.000 to get involved with these, but I did in this case. Yeah, 539 00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:16.119 it always is. And in this case someone was saying, you know, 540 00:43:16.159 --> 00:43:23.519 because because researcher Chris Rutowski, who you know, was saying something similar and 541 00:43:24.480 --> 00:43:28.760 one of the guys kind of jumped on him and it was like, hey, 542 00:43:28.840 --> 00:43:30.840 well you don't believe this. You don't believe in you know, psychic 543 00:43:30.880 --> 00:43:37.000 phenomena and alien abduction and alien people talking to aliens and all of this, 544 00:43:37.639 --> 00:43:40.800 and asking him all these questions like that, and Chris is like, well, 545 00:43:40.800 --> 00:43:44.599 you saw my statement. You know, I don't want to get involved, 546 00:43:44.599 --> 00:43:49.800 but I drew him in any way because actually, in Chris's defense that 547 00:43:50.199 --> 00:43:54.960 actually Chris is just saying that he, uh, those positions he takes are 548 00:43:55.039 --> 00:44:00.639 because there is no proof of those things that that you're mentioning. So it's 549 00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:07.119 totally legitimate for Chris to have this perspective. And you're the one who has 550 00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:12.280 to, you know, argue your point. Really the burden's on you, 551 00:44:12.400 --> 00:44:15.000 not Chris. And then this person's like, oh, I feel like I'm 552 00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:17.920 getting beaten up, and not at all. It's just open discussion. But 553 00:44:17.960 --> 00:44:21.960 you're the one who has to kind of you know, you guys be eaten 554 00:44:22.079 --> 00:44:23.239 up. You have to. You have to. You have to defend your 555 00:44:23.280 --> 00:44:28.199 position. If you don't defend your position and just expect people to believe you, 556 00:44:28.239 --> 00:44:31.119 that's what children do, right, so right, you have to. 557 00:44:31.760 --> 00:44:35.599 And if you can't defend the position, you take the position that Chris or 558 00:44:35.639 --> 00:44:38.440 I or you or many other people do, which is I'm not sure yet 559 00:44:38.480 --> 00:44:43.119 and I'm reserving judgment. I think Chris is more like there's no proof therefore 560 00:44:43.119 --> 00:44:46.199 it you know, I'm not gonna put any stock in it yet. Mine's 561 00:44:46.199 --> 00:44:51.199 a little different. Mine is there's not enough proof yet, but I'm still 562 00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:54.320 highly interested. Like I think remote viewing is, it's is something that really 563 00:44:54.320 --> 00:44:59.760 actually works because I've experienced it, which is you know, that's a that's 564 00:44:59.760 --> 00:45:05.159 a uh, that's personal experience. But something like you know, our ghosts, 565 00:45:05.199 --> 00:45:07.400 dead people that are coming back to haunt us, I'm not so sure. 566 00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:12.239 I'm pretty sure there's things called ghosts that people see, but I'm not 567 00:45:12.280 --> 00:45:15.679 exactly sure what causes them, where they come from, and how we perceive 568 00:45:15.760 --> 00:45:17.679 them, which is a huge part of it. Perception, I think, 569 00:45:17.800 --> 00:45:22.320 is something that people don't really pay attention to and how we perceive things. 570 00:45:22.480 --> 00:45:24.280 That's kind of what I'm crusading on right now, as you know, mm 571 00:45:24.320 --> 00:45:30.360 hmm, yeah exactly. So that is, and you know what, your 572 00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:32.639 perspective will be very welcome on this podcast. Of course, I'm open and 573 00:45:32.679 --> 00:45:37.519 welcoming to people with all different perspectives. I certainly don't mind people. I 574 00:45:37.559 --> 00:45:40.960 respect everyone having an opinion, even those people who want to believe in everything. 575 00:45:42.280 --> 00:45:45.079 That's you're right, fine, but we all, you know, respect 576 00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:50.159 that everybody else can be skeptical. But there was another person in there who 577 00:45:50.199 --> 00:45:52.239 said, kind of getting back to what you had mentioned, he said, 578 00:45:52.239 --> 00:45:57.360 that this topic is like a religion everybody had, or politics, everybody has 579 00:45:57.360 --> 00:46:01.199 a said opinion, and when we come into these type of debates, nobody 580 00:46:01.280 --> 00:46:06.320 changes their mind and their opinion. It's set and at least kind of what 581 00:46:06.440 --> 00:46:10.239 you described. I don't feel that way whatsoever. I change my mind on 582 00:46:10.280 --> 00:46:15.320 a regular basis. I mean if someone provides some good evidence or proof or 583 00:46:15.360 --> 00:46:22.599 even a credible anecdotal kind of story, that often influences my opinion. So 584 00:46:22.679 --> 00:46:28.280 being agnostic, my beliefs and opinions are wavering all over the place. Yeah 585 00:46:28.480 --> 00:46:30.519 all the time. Yeah, I think you're like me that there's you have 586 00:46:30.599 --> 00:46:36.360 a spectrum of belief or opinion or agreement or whatever you want to call it. 587 00:46:36.840 --> 00:46:42.960 And like, I will say that what that. I still think that 588 00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:47.599 there's a high probability that Rex Heflin photographs something that was anomalousts in Santa Anna, 589 00:46:47.639 --> 00:46:51.679 and you know, the pictures that look like a straw hat or whatever. 590 00:46:52.000 --> 00:46:57.679 I'm pretty sure he photographs something that's anomalous. I'm open to people that 591 00:46:57.800 --> 00:47:00.159 say it wasn't. I've looked at the studies they do one hundred percent convinced 592 00:47:00.239 --> 00:47:04.920 me. But then again, you know, so it's still undecided to me, 593 00:47:05.119 --> 00:47:09.760 undecided and unexplained. However, what the when somebody sees something and it 594 00:47:09.800 --> 00:47:14.239 looks like it looks like a floating lantern, it's probably a floating lantern. 595 00:47:14.400 --> 00:47:17.280 I've been out on one of those called skywatches with people. People get very 596 00:47:17.320 --> 00:47:21.599 excited when they see lights and I say, that's an airplane, and they 597 00:47:21.599 --> 00:47:23.599 get upset with me. How do you know, I said, because I'm 598 00:47:23.599 --> 00:47:25.880 a pilot. There's a red light, a green light, and a white, 599 00:47:27.239 --> 00:47:30.800 blinking white light. That's an airplane. And they're all in the right 600 00:47:30.800 --> 00:47:34.639 place. The green lights on the right side, and they'll red lights on 601 00:47:34.679 --> 00:47:37.559 the left side. Yeah, but people get upset because of that. But 602 00:47:38.760 --> 00:47:44.880 you know, I assume fairly heavily that that's a normal that's a normal plant. 603 00:47:45.039 --> 00:47:47.800 If something comes flying over, you know, way faster than a normal 604 00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:53.760 than any than physically possible. A light comes shooting over and makes weird right 605 00:47:53.800 --> 00:47:58.719 angle turns and back and all that, that's not an airplane. I haven't 606 00:47:58.760 --> 00:48:01.119 seen that yet. I'd like to. But the other thing is if I 607 00:48:01.159 --> 00:48:04.639 did see that, what does that prove to me? It proves to me 608 00:48:04.679 --> 00:48:07.280 that there's strange things in the sky that we can't identify. It doesn't prove 609 00:48:07.280 --> 00:48:10.800 to me there's aliens coming from other planets visiting us in structured ships. It 610 00:48:10.920 --> 00:48:15.039 just means something strange we can't explain yet it's happening, and we have to 611 00:48:15.079 --> 00:48:20.039 look for an explanation. Yep, exactly, I mean. And that's what 612 00:48:20.159 --> 00:48:23.960 gets difficult in this field, I think sometimes, and I get really uncomfortable 613 00:48:24.280 --> 00:48:29.159 even at our own events, because then it becomes kind of almost more like 614 00:48:29.159 --> 00:48:32.559 a religious event, where if you're not saying you're seeing a UFO, it's 615 00:48:32.599 --> 00:48:37.920 sacrilegious, and it is kind of this group think that almost pressures people who 616 00:48:37.960 --> 00:48:44.199 are there into believing or saying, oh, yeah, that was a UFO. 617 00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:45.800 Yeah. Well, they want to belong to a group. Every course. 618 00:48:45.840 --> 00:48:49.880 Everybody wants to belong to group and be accepted. I do too. 619 00:48:51.039 --> 00:48:52.440 I like that, but I'm not going to be accepted in a group just 620 00:48:52.960 --> 00:48:58.960 by putting away my critical thinking. In fact, in the last few years, 621 00:48:58.960 --> 00:49:01.800 I've stopped really care exactly what people think. If you don't agree with 622 00:49:01.840 --> 00:49:05.519 them, or if I say something that upsets them, I don't really care 623 00:49:05.559 --> 00:49:08.960 anymore. But I'm not mean about it. I don't tell somebody I'm smarter 624 00:49:09.119 --> 00:49:13.599 than them because I think I figured something out or that you know, they're 625 00:49:13.639 --> 00:49:16.000 just they're not open minded enough because they can't consider what I mean. I 626 00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:22.280 don't care about that stuff. What I care about is learning more constantly, 627 00:49:22.760 --> 00:49:25.800 and if there's people around that can help me learn more and are fairly agnostic, 628 00:49:25.840 --> 00:49:31.159 and really importantly they're not emotionally attached to their opinions, that's wonderful. 629 00:49:31.559 --> 00:49:36.960 It's hard not to be emotionally attached to your opinions, but especially with the 630 00:49:37.079 --> 00:49:39.119 UFOs, you can't be, or like I said before, you'll get locked 631 00:49:39.159 --> 00:49:45.320 into a defensive position and you just get more and more entrenched more or people 632 00:49:45.320 --> 00:49:46.880 come up to you and say, well, how can you believe this? 633 00:49:46.960 --> 00:49:50.960 And what about this? And have you considered this? And that? If 634 00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:52.960 you're emotionally attached to that, you're not gonna listen anymore. You just start 635 00:49:52.960 --> 00:49:55.679 filtering out anything that doesn't agree with you, and that's no way to learn 636 00:49:55.719 --> 00:50:02.000 anything now. And the reason that I went off on this tangent and the 637 00:50:02.039 --> 00:50:07.119 reason we got here, which is great because I love this discussion and I 638 00:50:07.119 --> 00:50:10.280 think a lot of the listeners will as well, But the reason I witnessed 639 00:50:10.320 --> 00:50:14.840 the direction, because it's interesting that even with the insight that you have, 640 00:50:14.920 --> 00:50:21.320 you're still agnostic about Roswell, which I understand because I find it hard not 641 00:50:21.400 --> 00:50:29.000 to be myself. But Bill Moore, maybe you can explain in your terms, 642 00:50:29.239 --> 00:50:34.239 how did it come to be then that he became this persona non grata 643 00:50:34.519 --> 00:50:39.719 and kind of this and disappeared, I mean, how he reacted to that. 644 00:50:40.960 --> 00:50:45.400 He didn't disappear right away. Just nobody was saying anything helpful. Everybody 645 00:50:45.440 --> 00:50:50.119 was mad at him. Nobody was joining him to try and help and figure 646 00:50:50.159 --> 00:50:52.119 out. So he just said, finally, just said, I forget it. 647 00:50:52.119 --> 00:50:55.679 That's part of my life. That's over now. Sometime in the early 648 00:50:55.719 --> 00:51:00.039 to mid nineteen nineties, mid Well, I think he completely got off of 649 00:51:00.199 --> 00:51:07.159 it. In the late nineteen nineties, How would you frame I guess concisely 650 00:51:07.599 --> 00:51:10.360 what happened, like what he did and and why people were upset with him? 651 00:51:12.159 --> 00:51:16.159 Okay, yeah, I was going to get to that. Bill Moore 652 00:51:16.239 --> 00:51:22.800 was a UFO researcher. He wrote first he wrote also with Charles Burlet's The 653 00:51:22.039 --> 00:51:29.800 Philadelphia Experiment Book and then the Roswell Book. He became a fairly important, 654 00:51:29.840 --> 00:51:35.639 well known UFO researcher. He was speaking at conventions all the time, and 655 00:51:35.719 --> 00:51:40.159 because of an agreement he made in the late seventies, probably seventeen, I 656 00:51:40.199 --> 00:51:45.559 think seventy nine, yeah, late nineteen seventy nine, he was being given 657 00:51:45.920 --> 00:51:51.880 supposedly secret documents on UFOs by somebody in the government or a group of people. 658 00:51:52.840 --> 00:51:55.239 The thing is, and this is when he was writing the Roswell book. 659 00:51:55.280 --> 00:51:58.679 I mean, when the Roswell Book was released, he was contacted and 660 00:51:58.719 --> 00:52:00.400 said, would you like to help us out? And if you help us 661 00:52:00.400 --> 00:52:05.280 out, we will give you some UFO documents that nobody else has seen. 662 00:52:05.920 --> 00:52:07.400 He said, all right, you know who wouldn't take that deal? A 663 00:52:07.440 --> 00:52:10.760 lot of UFO people would jump at it, and of course he did. 664 00:52:14.400 --> 00:52:15.760 As it turned out. His part of the deal, though, was that 665 00:52:15.800 --> 00:52:22.119 he had to since there was no Internet at the time and no way to 666 00:52:22.159 --> 00:52:27.320 really know exactly what people were talking about, he was supposed to provide answers 667 00:52:27.360 --> 00:52:30.199 when they were saying. When somebody in the government would say, well, 668 00:52:30.360 --> 00:52:32.480 what are people saying about this military base or anything about this, or did 669 00:52:32.480 --> 00:52:37.239 somebody see this light what's going around in the UFO community, because it might 670 00:52:37.280 --> 00:52:38.880 have been something they were testing and they wanted to know what people had seen 671 00:52:38.960 --> 00:52:43.960 because they wanted to guard against you know, unauthorized people seeing things that they 672 00:52:43.960 --> 00:52:45.719 weren't supposed to see or knowing things they weren't supposed to know. So he 673 00:52:45.880 --> 00:52:50.519 was there in into the UFO community, and of course he couldn't say anything 674 00:52:50.559 --> 00:52:52.320 to anybody because then they'd clam up. Of course, you know I would 675 00:52:52.320 --> 00:52:58.920 too, So he didn't say anything, and he continued to report on people's 676 00:52:58.960 --> 00:53:02.119 activities, what they were doing. He passed messages back and forth between different 677 00:53:04.760 --> 00:53:09.000 spy agencies, like he got letters from Russia and there were basically I believe 678 00:53:09.039 --> 00:53:13.360 there were letters from Russia, but there were letters from people that were Russian, 679 00:53:13.400 --> 00:53:16.840 that were Americans who were in Russia as spies, but they were sending 680 00:53:16.880 --> 00:53:20.679 things to the United States to, you know, to a UFO researcher, 681 00:53:20.760 --> 00:53:24.000 like, you know, I'm a Russian UFO researcher. Would you like to 682 00:53:24.000 --> 00:53:28.320 communicate this is what I know? And there were code embedded in those letters 683 00:53:28.679 --> 00:53:31.320 from post cards, and he'd have to call this number and just read the 684 00:53:31.400 --> 00:53:36.760 letter. Everything in the letter, all the if anything was spelled Funny'd have 685 00:53:36.840 --> 00:53:39.519 to spell it all the punctuation and everything, because there was code in those 686 00:53:39.599 --> 00:53:44.480 letters telling people what the people in Russia were reporting back on. So he 687 00:53:44.559 --> 00:53:49.360 basically did spy work in exchange for getting UFO information and documents, and he 688 00:53:49.440 --> 00:53:54.639 got lots of them. But then, this is according to more, were 689 00:53:54.639 --> 00:53:59.679 you able to verify that he was telling the truth, that this really happened. 690 00:54:02.280 --> 00:54:06.719 The only other person that was going on that this was happening to was 691 00:54:06.760 --> 00:54:10.760 his research partner, Jamie Schanderay, who I did talk to extensively for a 692 00:54:10.760 --> 00:54:14.440 long time. He's somebody that nobody ever talked to. Really, He's never 693 00:54:14.480 --> 00:54:16.199 really been interviewed that much. And he dropped out of the field too, 694 00:54:16.960 --> 00:54:22.440 right after he was on Coast to Coast strangely enough, in nineteen ninety nine. 695 00:54:22.679 --> 00:54:25.159 But what I say in defense of morning, they say, well, 696 00:54:25.199 --> 00:54:29.920 how do you know he's telling the truth? Two reasons. One, we're 697 00:54:29.920 --> 00:54:35.119 pretty good friends and he's always been straight with me. And two everything he's 698 00:54:35.159 --> 00:54:37.320 told me has later turned out to be true. Well, everything that I've 699 00:54:37.320 --> 00:54:42.400 been able to, you know, verify later I found out either through other 700 00:54:42.440 --> 00:54:49.159 people, through documents, through through things I saw on the internet, through 701 00:54:49.519 --> 00:54:53.400 any various amounts of various types of information that I gathered. Nothing he's told 702 00:54:53.440 --> 00:54:58.960 me I've been able to find out was a lie. So and on the 703 00:54:59.000 --> 00:55:01.519 top of that, like I said, we've been fairly good friends since nineteen 704 00:55:01.559 --> 00:55:07.880 eighty eight or eighty seven, I think, and I trust him in the 705 00:55:07.880 --> 00:55:13.039 way you trust your friends, and that you know, that's a unique situation. 706 00:55:13.119 --> 00:55:15.800 And I, you know, I can't tell everybody, well, he's 707 00:55:15.840 --> 00:55:17.440 my friends will usually trust him. I'm saying, he's my friend. So 708 00:55:17.480 --> 00:55:22.679 this is why I trust him, right, And this is you know, 709 00:55:22.719 --> 00:55:24.199 and he's like I said, he's never steered me wrong. And if he 710 00:55:24.239 --> 00:55:28.280 can't tell me something, or if he couldn't, we don't really talk about 711 00:55:28.280 --> 00:55:30.559 this stuff anymore. He would say, I can't really talk about it. 712 00:55:30.079 --> 00:55:32.760 I may be able to tell you someday, but right now I can't talk 713 00:55:32.800 --> 00:55:36.280 about it. And some of the things he told me later and other things 714 00:55:36.280 --> 00:55:38.280 he didn't, which is fine. But he told me as much as he 715 00:55:38.320 --> 00:55:40.639 could, and in fact, he knew that when he told me something, 716 00:55:40.880 --> 00:55:44.480 there was a good chance I was going to use the information in some way. 717 00:55:44.719 --> 00:55:46.440 So and that's part of the reason why he told me. And the 718 00:55:46.440 --> 00:55:49.480 other part was, you know, we're just friends, and he you know, 719 00:55:49.519 --> 00:55:52.639 he wanted to share things with me. So yeah, because the hard 720 00:55:52.679 --> 00:55:55.639 part is, as much as I've tried, you were using terms like they 721 00:55:55.800 --> 00:56:00.559 and them they wanted him to do this or they needed him to do that. 722 00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:05.400 I haven't been able to verify there have been a they or them beyond 723 00:56:06.039 --> 00:56:09.760 Richard Doty. But do you Falcon, the guy that he said was running 724 00:56:09.760 --> 00:56:15.119 this whole operation. Well, but Falcon's existence is not confirmed. I mean 725 00:56:15.159 --> 00:56:17.960 the only person that you know, uh, the only people that say they've 726 00:56:17.960 --> 00:56:22.360 met him or talked to him are Bill Moore and Richard Doty. That's true 727 00:56:22.679 --> 00:56:29.239 and so and these are at least I feel Bill Moore hasn't always been trustworthy, 728 00:56:29.239 --> 00:56:34.199 and certainly Richard Doty has not. I will agree with you, Yeah, 729 00:56:34.199 --> 00:56:37.719 because you write that you write about that definitely a lot in your book. 730 00:56:37.159 --> 00:56:40.519 Yeah, Bill wasn't one hundred percent happy with Project Beta. M H. 731 00:56:42.280 --> 00:56:45.400 I had him read the manuscript just you know, because he said I 732 00:56:45.400 --> 00:56:49.159 wanted to make sure I didn't make any mistakes. Yeah, according to him 733 00:56:49.199 --> 00:56:51.679 and anybody you know, I had him read it and then a couple other 734 00:56:51.719 --> 00:56:54.639 I had a couple of UFO researcher friends read it too, just to make 735 00:56:54.679 --> 00:57:00.400 sure that there doesn't anything wildly wrong with what I'd written and what Bill said 736 00:57:00.400 --> 00:57:01.760 he got finished, I said, what do you think? And he said, 737 00:57:04.119 --> 00:57:07.360 I don't agree with everything in there, and I'm not totally happy about 738 00:57:07.400 --> 00:57:10.000 it. But I said what I needed to say, and you found out 739 00:57:10.079 --> 00:57:15.760 things that I didn't even know, which not all of which make me happy. 740 00:57:15.079 --> 00:57:16.559 I said, well, he goes, I'm not going to tell you 741 00:57:16.639 --> 00:57:20.199 to change anything, but that's how I feel about it. So I say 742 00:57:20.239 --> 00:57:22.519 that sometimes I'll let people know I didn't write the book at his behest so 743 00:57:22.559 --> 00:57:25.760 that he could he can have a story told. He was just a source 744 00:57:25.800 --> 00:57:30.480 in the book. And like I said, he didn't agree with everything in 745 00:57:30.480 --> 00:57:32.400 there, and he wasn't happy about everything in there, but he didn't have 746 00:57:32.480 --> 00:57:36.719 arguments against them. I think he was just uncomfortable about that certain things he 747 00:57:36.719 --> 00:57:39.400 said, maybe he thought he shouldn't have or revealed things he shouldn't have, 748 00:57:39.480 --> 00:57:43.800 or other people corroborated things that he didn't know about that made him said. 749 00:57:44.000 --> 00:57:49.280 I didn't ask him exactly what he was upset about, but he said it 750 00:57:49.320 --> 00:57:51.559 was the You know, he was satisfied with the way where the book was, 751 00:57:51.599 --> 00:57:54.719 but not totally happy with how it. Yeah, other people it's like, 752 00:57:54.760 --> 00:57:58.119 well, good, then I feel like I've done a fair job. 753 00:57:58.559 --> 00:58:02.440 So you're convinced than that was not working alone though, that there was essentially 754 00:58:04.079 --> 00:58:09.039 a disinformation project that Dody was kind of point on. Well, the thing 755 00:58:09.119 --> 00:58:13.480 is that Kurtland Air Force Base, where all this took place, is a 756 00:58:13.519 --> 00:58:16.239 home to many different projects. The Air Force basically, you know, it 757 00:58:16.320 --> 00:58:22.760 runs everything there because it's an Air Force base, but there's other groups there 758 00:58:22.800 --> 00:58:27.119 doing things. The NSA has a presence there that I think the maybe the 759 00:58:27.199 --> 00:58:31.159 National Reconnaissance Office, maybe the CIA, I'm not exactly sure about all these 760 00:58:31.159 --> 00:58:36.239 groups. There's many different groups though, working on secret projects, and they 761 00:58:36.360 --> 00:58:40.280 were you know, just as many back in nineteen seventy eight, seventy nine, 762 00:58:40.360 --> 00:58:43.960 eighty you know, the period of the book, which is about nineteen 763 00:58:43.960 --> 00:58:47.840 seventy eight to about eighty six seven, something like that. These groups were 764 00:58:47.880 --> 00:58:51.719 all there. They all had interest in things that were going on at the 765 00:58:51.719 --> 00:58:53.639 base. They all had secret projects they had to keep, you know, 766 00:58:53.679 --> 00:58:58.119 they had to keep under wraps and make sure that people weren't watching them and 767 00:58:58.440 --> 00:59:00.960 you know, stealing the information and sending to Russia or China or whatever, 768 00:59:02.440 --> 00:59:07.119 and so Dotie was just the one everybody hears about. So they they they 769 00:59:07.480 --> 00:59:09.960 say, well, Dotie is the bad guy in this, and he did 770 00:59:10.000 --> 00:59:15.400 everything. He didn't really he did a lot of stuff. But you know, 771 00:59:15.719 --> 00:59:16.920 the NSA was there. In fact, they were. They were set 772 00:59:16.960 --> 00:59:22.800 up apparently across from Paul Benowitz's house and sending him signals so that he wouldn't 773 00:59:22.840 --> 00:59:25.719 take he wouldn't be getting the signals they were sending around working on some coded 774 00:59:25.760 --> 00:59:30.280 information. I believe I talked to a guy in the NSSA that told me 775 00:59:30.320 --> 00:59:34.519 about this, So you have verified that. So you've talked to an NSSA 776 00:59:34.599 --> 00:59:39.079 for someone in the NSA, then this would be a third party who told 777 00:59:39.159 --> 00:59:46.840 you that they were sending Benowitz signals. Uh. He did not tell me 778 00:59:46.880 --> 00:59:50.199 that, but he did say that there were there were projects on the base 779 00:59:50.199 --> 00:59:52.800 that the NSA was running. That's all he could tell me. Okay, 780 00:59:52.840 --> 00:59:59.719 So but the thing is, I I know that Benowitz got had was receiving, 781 00:59:59.719 --> 01:00:02.400 say knows because other people that I talked to, other UFO researchers went 782 01:00:02.440 --> 01:00:07.360 to his house and saw his setup and talked to him about it and actually 783 01:00:07.400 --> 01:00:12.840 saw these strange images on a screen that Benowitz described. Bill Moore told me 784 01:00:12.880 --> 01:00:16.159 about it, and the only thing I can think is either one aliens are 785 01:00:16.199 --> 01:00:22.239 sending him these these images, or two, far far far more likely somebody 786 01:00:22.360 --> 01:00:25.039 would wherewithal in nineteen eighty to do this is sending him the images to mess 787 01:00:25.079 --> 01:00:30.320 with him. And it just so people know, Benowitz was kind of people 788 01:00:30.360 --> 01:00:35.679 who aren't aware, no problem. He was the guy that essentially was a 789 01:00:35.719 --> 01:00:43.800 target. So Dodie was having more. You know, give Benowitz's material one 790 01:00:43.920 --> 01:00:47.039 thing, as far as I can determine, the Aquarious document, and he 791 01:00:47.079 --> 01:00:50.400 actually is, as far as I can tell from talking to More. He 792 01:00:50.440 --> 01:00:52.119 said, that's the only thing I ever gave him, and they forced me 793 01:00:52.159 --> 01:00:55.000 to give it to him. They said, give this to Paul because we 794 01:00:55.039 --> 01:00:58.079 want him to see it. It was something called, I think called the 795 01:00:58.079 --> 01:01:04.800 Aquarius Document actually mentioned twelve for the first time ever, right or mostly fake 796 01:01:04.920 --> 01:01:08.199 document. Mori said he took him in a in a a closet at his 797 01:01:08.320 --> 01:01:12.599 work and turned up a radio really loud because he knew people there might be 798 01:01:12.639 --> 01:01:15.440 bugs in there, and talked in his ear and he said, I was 799 01:01:15.480 --> 01:01:19.880 told to give this to you. Take it with a grain of salt, 800 01:01:20.320 --> 01:01:23.079 and apparently he did because he never mentioned it anybody and he locked it away 801 01:01:23.079 --> 01:01:27.280 in a safe I mean, I'm sure it affected his thinking, but apparently 802 01:01:27.320 --> 01:01:31.480 that was the only piece of dis info that More actually passed Paul Benewitz that 803 01:01:31.719 --> 01:01:35.360 you know, they were friends, it's just that he couldn't tell him. 804 01:01:35.360 --> 01:01:38.840 He was working with you know, with with with intelligence people to find out 805 01:01:38.880 --> 01:01:44.559 what was going on with them. So it's a very very complicated story with 806 01:01:44.599 --> 01:01:46.599 a lot more players, and people think they only concentrate on the main ones 807 01:01:46.960 --> 01:01:52.960 More More in doty well, but there are many others. Yeah, well, 808 01:01:53.039 --> 01:01:55.480 let's do it. We'll do a show where we talk more about this, 809 01:01:55.599 --> 01:02:02.199 because I haven't found evidence that there are except for because everything we know 810 01:02:02.400 --> 01:02:07.360 comes from Dody and More. But I'd like your perspective. But let's move 811 01:02:07.400 --> 01:02:12.559 ahead so we can get into other topics, and so just kind of to 812 01:02:12.599 --> 01:02:17.880 talk about More's downfall, so he finally comes clean and maybe you could verify 813 01:02:17.920 --> 01:02:22.760 whether you believe this to be true or not. Also, just because Hastings 814 01:02:22.880 --> 01:02:27.639 kind of Robert Hastings, another researcher who we had on fairly recently, kind 815 01:02:27.679 --> 01:02:30.039 of caught wind of all of this and was trying to expose Bill Moore, 816 01:02:30.360 --> 01:02:34.760 And so Bill Moore kind of fell on his sword and went out and told 817 01:02:34.800 --> 01:02:39.320 everybody about it at a mof On symposium. I don't think it was only 818 01:02:39.360 --> 01:02:44.199 Hastings, but I might be wrong. Uh huh. I respect Hastings and 819 01:02:44.239 --> 01:02:46.320 has worked with the UFOs and nukes thing. But I had an online argument 820 01:02:46.360 --> 01:02:52.239 with him once and he said, I know that Falcon we talked about earlier 821 01:02:52.400 --> 01:02:54.119 was Richard Doty And I said, how do you know that? He said, 822 01:02:54.159 --> 01:03:00.440 because he told Linda how I said, you mean you don't believe anything 823 01:03:00.480 --> 01:03:05.559 he says until he tells Linda How something that makes no sense whatsoever. Well, 824 01:03:05.599 --> 01:03:08.840 and an argument against that too is that he doesn't necessarily feel that Linda 825 01:03:08.880 --> 01:03:16.000 how I know is a credible resource, so he's citing currently he thinks Linda 826 01:03:16.039 --> 01:03:22.760 how and Richard Dody a credible resources when it agrees with this idea that about 827 01:03:22.239 --> 01:03:28.480 Dody being what they called Falcon. All these different names were made up by 828 01:03:28.599 --> 01:03:31.920 More and Chanderrat to refer to these people in the government that they were dealing 829 01:03:31.920 --> 01:03:36.440 with, and Falcon was the guy that was the head of all of it 830 01:03:36.519 --> 01:03:38.800 and was telling all the different agencies what to do. They were trying to 831 01:03:38.840 --> 01:03:44.320 trap Russian spies. That's basically what's the Benewitz thing. And this whole episode 832 01:03:44.360 --> 01:03:47.719 was a tiny, tiny, little part of a huge operation. When UFO 833 01:03:47.800 --> 01:03:52.960 people look at it, they think it's just something to drive UFO people crazy, 834 01:03:52.159 --> 01:03:54.800 make them look bad, and all that had nothing to do with that 835 01:03:54.840 --> 01:04:00.440 whatsoever. It just had to do with national security. And the way it 836 01:04:00.480 --> 01:04:03.440 turned out for ben and Wits was unfortunate because he was unstable to begin with, 837 01:04:03.480 --> 01:04:06.239 and all this stuff just made him more unstable, and he ended up 838 01:04:06.239 --> 01:04:10.880 at a mental institution for a few months. His family put him there, 839 01:04:11.000 --> 01:04:16.000 and it's unfortunate and horrible, and but the thing is that at the time 840 01:04:16.039 --> 01:04:19.239 they didn't care what was happening to him as long as the secrets were kept 841 01:04:19.239 --> 01:04:25.280 and they kept a lid on all the black projects that were going on around 842 01:04:25.320 --> 01:04:29.400 Currentland at the time. And it kind of seems like, if this is 843 01:04:29.440 --> 01:04:32.000 all the way it went, and this is true, then you know, 844 01:04:32.119 --> 01:04:40.000 given the story you've given just now. Bill Moore then goes to this symposium 845 01:04:40.079 --> 01:04:43.840 he talks about what he did. People get pissed, they don't want to 846 01:04:43.880 --> 01:04:46.199 work with him. Anymore, there's people yelling and screaming, I guess, 847 01:04:46.239 --> 01:04:55.960 and leaving. And in the end he didn't even It doesn't seem that he 848 01:04:56.079 --> 01:05:00.400 got anything of substance at all. He never really got any seat greats, 849 01:05:00.159 --> 01:05:03.320 not really. I think he got a few. Well, you know what 850 01:05:03.360 --> 01:05:09.440 I will say in Hastings defense, I think he was bothering more and just 851 01:05:09.559 --> 01:05:12.519 basically was another one, another needle in a side, just saying, you 852 01:05:12.519 --> 01:05:15.280 know, you better do something because all the what More told me, I 853 01:05:15.320 --> 01:05:18.400 believe was the rumors are going crazy. It was getting worse and worse, 854 01:05:18.440 --> 01:05:21.440 and I needed to say something. So I decided to tell them everything that 855 01:05:21.480 --> 01:05:26.719 I could at the time, and I said, what would you do it? 856 01:05:26.719 --> 01:05:30.480 The same way again, he goes, I wouldn't be so arrogant, 857 01:05:30.559 --> 01:05:35.519 That's the only thing he said. But yeah, everybody, I was at 858 01:05:35.519 --> 01:05:40.559 that MOFON convention in nineteen eighty and in Las Vegas. I was standing in 859 01:05:40.559 --> 01:05:44.000 the room when it happened, and it was the best speech I ever saw 860 01:05:44.039 --> 01:05:49.079 anywhere on anything because of the reaction. You know, I've never seen people 861 01:05:49.239 --> 01:05:54.000 react like that to anything, not a political speech, nothing, So it 862 01:05:54.039 --> 01:05:58.840 was a very highly charged atmosphere. I mean, you can see I don't 863 01:05:58.840 --> 01:06:01.519 know if it's online because I think Muffon owns it, but I actually somebody 864 01:06:01.599 --> 01:06:05.599 sent me a videotape, a copy of the video of his slash. You 865 01:06:05.639 --> 01:06:09.880 can hear all the yelling sort of in the background, and the State Section 866 01:06:10.039 --> 01:06:13.400 director has to stop the had to stop it about three or four times to 867 01:06:13.400 --> 01:06:16.360 tell everybody to calm down. And then after it was over, more of 868 01:06:16.440 --> 01:06:19.039 wrote a whole bunch of He wrote a whole bunch of questions and answered them 869 01:06:19.039 --> 01:06:23.480 because he didn't want to take questions from the audience because he turned into more 870 01:06:23.480 --> 01:06:28.880 pandemonium and he knew that. But yeah, after that, he said, 871 01:06:28.920 --> 01:06:31.079 anybody that still wants to help me, please contact me, And all people 872 01:06:31.079 --> 01:06:38.559 did was get really mad at him, with some justification. But the thing 873 01:06:38.679 --> 01:06:44.119 is that I think that in a lot of especially in a weird field like 874 01:06:44.119 --> 01:06:46.480 euthology, if you let the emotion, your emotions get the better of you, 875 01:06:46.480 --> 01:06:50.639 you're missing a whole lot of stuff. Right. You could still agree 876 01:06:50.639 --> 01:06:55.039 with more and still talk to him, but people would not. Instead of 877 01:06:55.079 --> 01:06:57.800 instead of talking to him, they would just write him or calling up with 878 01:06:58.039 --> 01:07:00.639 accusations instead of why did you do this? Can you explain to me? 879 01:07:00.840 --> 01:07:03.559 He said, all he got was people yelling at him incoherently, so he 880 01:07:03.559 --> 01:07:06.920 said, Okay, forget it. Yeah, I don't think I wouldn't have 881 01:07:06.920 --> 01:07:11.480 gotten that as an upset. Why I never get that upset. But I 882 01:07:11.519 --> 01:07:15.320 mean with him, even I would have just been like, I would have 883 01:07:15.320 --> 01:07:18.280 thought it was interesting and fun because it's something to write about and interview people 884 01:07:18.320 --> 01:07:25.760 about. But I also would have felt like, well, his credibility with 885 01:07:25.800 --> 01:07:31.119 me would be damaged. But at the same time, and the reason that, 886 01:07:31.719 --> 01:07:35.679 just because you just mentioned if people get too emotional about stuff and they 887 01:07:35.719 --> 01:07:41.000 miss it, a lot of people just wanted to then just forget the whole 888 01:07:41.119 --> 01:07:45.920 episode. And the reason it's important not to forget that episode is what you 889 01:07:45.039 --> 01:07:51.119 mentioned earlier, is that MJ twelve was mentioned for the first time in that 890 01:07:51.480 --> 01:08:00.280 Project Aquarius document that Dody gave more and this whole legend that even Stanton Friedman 891 01:08:00.519 --> 01:08:03.320 and many others subscribe to. Maybe you do, I don't know, but 892 01:08:03.400 --> 01:08:11.559 this whole idea of MJ twelve stems from this incident. Yeah, I think 893 01:08:11.639 --> 01:08:15.359 so it was. I asked Bill about this many years later. Recently, 894 01:08:15.399 --> 01:08:16.920 actually, in the last couple of years. I said, what do you 895 01:08:16.920 --> 01:08:19.079 think MJ twelve was And he said, I don't think it has anything to 896 01:08:19.159 --> 01:08:23.840 do with UFOs whatsoever at all. I just think it was a convenient thing 897 01:08:23.880 --> 01:08:27.239 that was extremely secret that it was easy to hang a whole bunch of stuff 898 01:08:27.279 --> 01:08:33.279 on because it was a defense it was a defense connected group, it was 899 01:08:33.319 --> 01:08:36.119 a small group, and it was a group that wasn't too much on the 900 01:08:36.159 --> 01:08:40.600 record, so it's really hard to trace exactly what it was, so they 901 01:08:40.600 --> 01:08:45.199 could hang all kinds of identities on it. And that's what they did with 902 01:08:45.319 --> 01:08:53.119 the with the what's with the Eisenhower briefing document? With the what's the mcudler 903 01:08:53.119 --> 01:08:57.720 twining membo, all these things that sort of point vaguely to something that nobody 904 01:08:57.720 --> 01:09:00.399 can get too much information on. So they were able to hang a whole 905 01:09:00.399 --> 01:09:05.760 bunch of disinformation on this little piece of information that's that's obscure and this, 906 01:09:06.279 --> 01:09:12.399 like I said, I don't I have you know, the greatest confidence that 907 01:09:12.399 --> 01:09:15.439 there was none of it was done to mess with UFO investigators and make them 908 01:09:15.479 --> 01:09:21.479 look bad. And all it was was let's cover up as much as possible 909 01:09:23.720 --> 01:09:28.039 all the things that we don't want foreign governments to see and that we don't 910 01:09:28.079 --> 01:09:32.000 want UFO investigators to inadvertently start handing to people when they just think it's UFO 911 01:09:32.359 --> 01:09:36.880 information, that that's what they were in control, not not. You know, 912 01:09:38.760 --> 01:09:42.760 you know a lot of UFO researchers think that the government's really interested in 913 01:09:42.800 --> 01:09:47.199 them because of the UFO secret. They're not. You know what, I 914 01:09:47.199 --> 01:09:54.359 think they're just as confused about UFOs as probably more than UFO researchers. And 915 01:09:54.399 --> 01:09:56.760 then you know, in fact, they probably looked to them for some answers 916 01:09:56.800 --> 01:10:00.359 like what the hell is going on here? But if it starts in a 917 01:10:00.439 --> 01:10:03.600 national security they got very concerned and start steering people away from it. Or 918 01:10:03.640 --> 01:10:10.600 conversely, another thing you do with this kind of information is see who's interested 919 01:10:10.640 --> 01:10:13.640 in it and check up on their background. You know. It basically it's 920 01:10:13.680 --> 01:10:15.600 flight paper for spies, you know. M hm. Well, and like 921 01:10:15.640 --> 01:10:21.399 you said earlier, I mean, for instance, when when Benowitz was receiving 922 01:10:21.520 --> 01:10:26.840 signals, he lived right across the street from the base, and he had 923 01:10:27.079 --> 01:10:30.439 a lab right by the base, and when he was receiving signals, if 924 01:10:30.439 --> 01:10:35.439 he thought they were alien, which he did, he might have inadvertently shared 925 01:10:35.479 --> 01:10:41.239 that information when it was stuff that the base was working on that they didn't 926 01:10:41.279 --> 01:10:44.880 want Russians or others to find out. Yeah, that's what they were worried 927 01:10:44.880 --> 01:10:48.319 about it. He was starting to try and decode it, which really worried 928 01:10:48.319 --> 01:10:51.439 them. And I'm not exactly sure what the coded transmissions were. I guess 929 01:10:51.479 --> 01:10:56.000 there were some way to you know, I think had to do with microbursts, 930 01:10:56.039 --> 01:11:00.000 where you like send a whole bunch of information very quickly and a very 931 01:11:00.079 --> 01:11:02.560 short amount of time that just sounds like gibberish until you have the right equipment 932 01:11:02.600 --> 01:11:06.199 to sort of slow it down and decrypt it. And Benow's was figuring that 933 01:11:06.239 --> 01:11:09.720 out, and they're like, jeez, we've poured billions of dollars into this 934 01:11:09.760 --> 01:11:13.560 and this guy's figuring it out. So let's find out how he's figuring it 935 01:11:13.600 --> 01:11:16.720 out and who he's talking to, and see if we can prevent this in 936 01:11:16.760 --> 01:11:23.079 the future by kind of keeping an eye on him. So, you know, 937 01:11:23.119 --> 01:11:25.840 his problem was he was just too curious. And his second problem, 938 01:11:25.840 --> 01:11:31.960 which was bigger, was that he drew very outlandish conclusions from little bits of 939 01:11:32.039 --> 01:11:36.520 data that that didn't mean when he thought it did. And that's unfortunate. 940 01:11:36.600 --> 01:11:44.520 I mean, nothing pathing it was brilliant, brilliant electronics engineer, but combined 941 01:11:44.560 --> 01:11:48.520 with his belief that there was some aliens around and that apparently they were invading 942 01:11:48.560 --> 01:11:54.760 the world or at least the United States, that that that it kind of 943 01:11:55.720 --> 01:12:00.439 it set the stage for him to eventually just have a breakdown. And then 944 01:12:00.640 --> 01:12:04.960 in defense of the people who believe that this was UFO related and doubt your 945 01:12:05.279 --> 01:12:10.039 your how you try to explain it was more to do with the Russians and 946 01:12:10.359 --> 01:12:17.800 other things. Dodie goes on past this even to recent years to talk about 947 01:12:17.800 --> 01:12:28.159 these wild UFO and alien claims that he has which are absolutely ridiculous, well, 948 01:12:28.239 --> 01:12:34.880 including cirpo. Yeah, and to explain what CIRPO is. This happened 949 01:12:34.920 --> 01:12:41.239 in the nineteen no, the early two thousands, something like that or mid 950 01:12:41.479 --> 01:12:44.159 I can't remember what year it was, Yeah, not that long ago, 951 01:12:44.479 --> 01:12:49.199 seven eightthing. Yeah, Yeah, there was a rumor that there was a 952 01:12:49.199 --> 01:12:54.600 an exchange program between some alien civilization and the United States government, and they 953 01:12:54.640 --> 01:12:58.279 sent some astronauts to their planet and some of the aliens came here, and 954 01:12:58.279 --> 01:13:00.399 then after a whild aliens went back, and some of the astronauts came back. 955 01:13:00.439 --> 01:13:02.720 Some of them died and a couple of them stayed or whatever. That 956 01:13:02.880 --> 01:13:10.479 was the story. Absolutely zero way to verify that whatsoever, but that it 957 01:13:10.520 --> 01:13:14.279 was making this stories were making the rounds basically on this guy named Victor Martinez's 958 01:13:15.239 --> 01:13:18.279 email list. I was on the list. I was yeah, I was 959 01:13:18.359 --> 01:13:24.119 kind of going, what the hell's going on here? And then after it 960 01:13:24.159 --> 01:13:28.399 got to a fever pitch, a few of the players and interested people went 961 01:13:28.439 --> 01:13:30.960 on coast to coast with Noriri and talked about it, and one of them 962 01:13:30.039 --> 01:13:33.560 was Richard Dodi. And when I heard that, I was like, oh 963 01:13:33.600 --> 01:13:35.960 my god. I mean, and him and a couple other people were people 964 01:13:36.000 --> 01:13:40.359 that were around and doing these sort of things when Benowitz was being messed with, 965 01:13:40.880 --> 01:13:44.520 I said, how can you in your right mind think that this has 966 01:13:44.560 --> 01:13:50.600 anything to do with any kind of actual reality when these one the same people 967 01:13:50.640 --> 01:13:55.640 are involved too. It's completely outlandish, and three it has it has no 968 01:13:55.720 --> 01:14:00.119 way to be verified. I think it was being done to pas messages again 969 01:14:00.640 --> 01:14:06.000 somehow, because Martinez when he was getting these emails, whoever was giving him 970 01:14:06.039 --> 01:14:10.319 to him. I guess the guy's name they used request Anonymous was the person's 971 01:14:10.800 --> 01:14:14.560 the sources name. He started changing some of the language because he's an English 972 01:14:14.560 --> 01:14:15.479 teacher. And he said, oh, well, you know this is written 973 01:14:15.520 --> 01:14:18.119 wrong. Let me correct the sentence structure. And this is spelled wrong. 974 01:14:18.680 --> 01:14:21.520 They wrote to him and said, do not change any of this stuff, 975 01:14:21.560 --> 01:14:25.640 because if you do, we're going to stop sending it to you. Why 976 01:14:25.640 --> 01:14:30.840 should they care? I think the reason was because there was something encoded in 977 01:14:30.880 --> 01:14:35.640 all those punctuation, grammar, spelling and whatever errors that needed to be seen 978 01:14:35.680 --> 01:14:40.600 by somebody. And one a message might be passed, and two whoever can 979 01:14:40.640 --> 01:14:43.880 figure out the message starts talking about it, and they can watch their email 980 01:14:43.960 --> 01:14:45.880 and their phone calls and everything. It's like, guess what just came out 981 01:14:45.880 --> 01:14:48.800 of so and so it said this, You know, how did you figure 982 01:14:48.840 --> 01:14:53.399 that out? Well, then they know something they're not supposed to. So 983 01:14:53.439 --> 01:14:55.439 I think it was they were out there trying to, like, like I 984 01:14:55.479 --> 01:15:00.239 said, a spyfly paper again. And then there were some IT guys that 985 01:15:00.439 --> 01:15:02.720 looked into it as well, and they felt they were able to prove that 986 01:15:03.920 --> 01:15:09.039 the emails were coming from the same IP address as Richard dodies. Yes, 987 01:15:09.720 --> 01:15:12.960 yes, I heard about this, and then and then Doty stopped talking to 988 01:15:13.000 --> 01:15:15.359 me because of that, because of CERPO, because I implicated him and on 989 01:15:15.720 --> 01:15:20.520 Uophi Mystic. Actually, there's a some of this is in the it defies 990 01:15:20.640 --> 01:15:25.359 language, there's right entries on that. Yeah. Yeah, the one reason 991 01:15:25.399 --> 01:15:28.399 I wanted to bring it up. Yeah, Doty stopped talking to me at 992 01:15:28.399 --> 01:15:30.279 that point. As soon as he saw my post. He said, I 993 01:15:30.319 --> 01:15:32.279 was offended by your post. I don't want to take me off any list 994 01:15:32.319 --> 01:15:34.239 you're on, and I don't want to hear from you ever again. And 995 01:15:34.239 --> 01:15:39.119 he hasn't talked to me since then. And I wasn't friends with him or 996 01:15:39.159 --> 01:15:42.840 anything, but you know, I was. It was a cordial enough relationship 997 01:15:42.840 --> 01:15:45.960 to be able to talk to him, ask him questions and get him on 998 01:15:46.159 --> 01:15:49.319 Coast to Coast when I was on for Project Beta. He actually came on 999 01:15:49.399 --> 01:15:53.319 and talked more than I did, which is good. It was a great 1000 01:15:53.319 --> 01:15:59.199 show because of that. Yeah. In fact, whether you believe him or 1001 01:15:59.279 --> 01:16:01.800 not or whatever the worries or whatever you want, that was historic. It 1002 01:16:01.840 --> 01:16:05.199 was the first time he was on any media talking about anything to do with 1003 01:16:05.239 --> 01:16:09.760 any of this, and it was it was pretty amazing. Yeah. In 1004 01:16:09.800 --> 01:16:15.039 fact, I use that show as my one source from Dodie because it's the 1005 01:16:15.079 --> 01:16:20.800 only place where it's coming straight from his mouth, because every time someone interviews 1006 01:16:20.920 --> 01:16:25.199 him in print, which of course was the medium before when all this was 1007 01:16:25.479 --> 01:16:30.159 happening, he easily and does deny, Oh, I didn't say that. 1008 01:16:30.319 --> 01:16:32.600 I didn't say that. He does this all the time, and he'll change 1009 01:16:32.600 --> 01:16:36.680 his story back and forth. And I feel a lot of these print sources 1010 01:16:36.720 --> 01:16:44.399 are credible sources, such as the saucer smear, which he wrote in a 1011 01:16:44.439 --> 01:16:48.520 lot where he contradicts himself left and right, which you found as well. 1012 01:16:49.680 --> 01:16:56.680 So that's why I use that interview as the one source because and I always 1013 01:16:57.039 --> 01:17:00.359 give the caveat that I don't trust what comes from this guy's mouth at all. 1014 01:17:00.439 --> 01:17:04.920 It changes constantly. So just to reference what his story is, here's 1015 01:17:04.920 --> 01:17:08.840 the one time he's on the record and you can go listen to him for 1016 01:17:08.880 --> 01:17:13.159 yourself. Yeah. Well, people have problems with Dodie as well, or 1017 01:17:13.199 --> 01:17:16.560 anybody any spy type person, intelligence connected person, because it's like, well, 1018 01:17:16.560 --> 01:17:19.800 how can you trust what they say? Well you can't, But if 1019 01:17:19.800 --> 01:17:24.840 you don't listen, you get nothing. Yeah, and if you listen occasionally 1020 01:17:24.920 --> 01:17:28.439 there's things you can check up on. This is what I interviewed him for 1021 01:17:28.479 --> 01:17:30.960 about I don't know, like three hours, a big three hour interview. 1022 01:17:30.960 --> 01:17:35.119 We just sat in a Denny's in New Mexico at this at a table and 1023 01:17:35.239 --> 01:17:39.840 interviewed him for three hours without a recorder, which was unfortunate because he wouldn't 1024 01:17:39.880 --> 01:17:43.880 let me. But the thing is I wanted to talk to him because he 1025 01:17:43.920 --> 01:17:45.199 was an important part of the story. And you know, a lot of 1026 01:17:45.199 --> 01:17:47.119 people's like, why do you even talk to him? He's a big liar. 1027 01:17:47.119 --> 01:17:50.640 It's like liars, aren't you know, he doesn't lie all the time, 1028 01:17:51.439 --> 01:17:55.760 and if he isn't, I can check on the stuff that corroborates. 1029 01:17:56.359 --> 01:17:59.880 You know, did Dotie say something? Okay? So did Bill Moore say 1030 01:18:00.039 --> 01:18:01.680 something? I trust Bill? And then he on top of that, What 1031 01:18:01.760 --> 01:18:06.520 if I talk to what gave Valdez or I talked to Gary Massey, who 1032 01:18:06.600 --> 01:18:10.720 was another person that knew Benewitz. What if I talk to these people they 1033 01:18:10.720 --> 01:18:13.880 tell me the same thing. Well, then probably Doty is telling me something 1034 01:18:13.880 --> 01:18:16.720 that actually happened from his point of view, and I have to consider that 1035 01:18:16.760 --> 01:18:20.640 as possibly an important part of the story. Then if he tells me something 1036 01:18:20.640 --> 01:18:25.439 that has nothing to do with what we're talking about, that seems highly implausible 1037 01:18:25.479 --> 01:18:29.560 and whatever, And there's no way for me to check on it. There 1038 01:18:29.560 --> 01:18:31.159 were many things he told me I didn't even mention in the book because they're 1039 01:18:31.159 --> 01:18:36.119 either irrelevant or I was pretty sure they were false. And if he did 1040 01:18:36.159 --> 01:18:41.239 tell me something that I that I that only came from him, I made 1041 01:18:41.439 --> 01:18:45.039 certain to say that this is you know, this is a DOTY said this, 1042 01:18:45.520 --> 01:18:48.279 not somebody else. And if I just say this happened, that means 1043 01:18:48.560 --> 01:18:53.720 two or three or more people told me basically the same story. Well, 1044 01:18:53.800 --> 01:18:56.840 I tried to do it that way. I mean, I didn't believe everything 1045 01:18:56.960 --> 01:19:00.000 anybody told me. Yeah, well, let's let's get on other topics, 1046 01:19:00.039 --> 01:19:03.079 because I didn't want to use the whole show talking about that. Oh wait 1047 01:19:03.119 --> 01:19:08.359 a second, we did just use the whole show talking about that. No, 1048 01:19:08.439 --> 01:19:12.079 I just pretty much, I'm just kidding. It's it's terribly interested. 1049 01:19:12.439 --> 01:19:15.319 Obviously. I'm so interested in it. And I think, you know, 1050 01:19:15.399 --> 01:19:19.319 because so much of the mythology that people believe in, like you know, 1051 01:19:19.439 --> 01:19:25.880 I talked with a religious fervor where it's sacrilege to doubt some of these things 1052 01:19:25.960 --> 01:19:31.159 like m J twelve all stem from this episode. Sacrilege not to doubt everything. 1053 01:19:32.039 --> 01:19:36.039 I agree, brother, I agree, but that's okay. I want 1054 01:19:36.039 --> 01:19:40.239 to bring you on and talk more about all of this actually, so we'll 1055 01:19:40.279 --> 01:19:43.800 talk to more about all of this. But I guess before we leave, 1056 01:19:43.880 --> 01:19:46.960 a couple of things I wanted to note about the book. So it's really 1057 01:19:47.000 --> 01:19:55.000 cool that red Pill Junkie. You know, he's a guy online that that's 1058 01:19:55.039 --> 01:20:00.640 his Twitter handle, and he's always in there kind of posting stuff and asking 1059 01:20:00.720 --> 01:20:02.479 questions. He's got a great sense of humor. And I didn't even know 1060 01:20:02.680 --> 01:20:06.079 till the conference when you guys were there, and it was wonderful that you 1061 01:20:06.079 --> 01:20:10.760 brought him so I could meet him. That people thought I was red pill 1062 01:20:10.880 --> 01:20:16.520 drunkie. That's hilarious. But I got that picture of both of you together, 1063 01:20:16.600 --> 01:20:18.960 so we know you at least we're both in the same place at the 1064 01:20:18.960 --> 01:20:23.680 same time in the same picture. So you know, either that or there's 1065 01:20:23.720 --> 01:20:26.560 more red pill junkies around you, you're both red pill junkie. I don't 1066 01:20:26.600 --> 01:20:29.840 know, yeah, kind of like anonymous or something. There's well, he 1067 01:20:29.920 --> 01:20:32.399 came because you know, the reason a lot of people came and I made 1068 01:20:32.439 --> 01:20:36.279 the special trip is because Jacques Roulet was there and he never makes public appearances 1069 01:20:36.319 --> 01:20:40.239 anymore, and somehow you got him to appear there, which is wonderful, 1070 01:20:40.479 --> 01:20:45.720 and he was gracious to everybody. I was flabbergasted at how friendly and accessible 1071 01:20:45.760 --> 01:20:48.399 he was. But yeah, that's part of the reason that Red Pill came 1072 01:20:48.439 --> 01:20:54.520 also because I'd never met him before. We've been talking online for like two 1073 01:20:54.600 --> 01:20:58.920 years, so he made the effort to come up and we bas, you 1074 01:20:58.920 --> 01:21:00.880 know, we shared. We shared the whole hotel room in a car and 1075 01:21:00.920 --> 01:21:04.039 all that stuff, so that would be a little less expensive. But yeah, 1076 01:21:04.039 --> 01:21:09.359 and he did a This is the first book project he's worked on, 1077 01:21:09.439 --> 01:21:12.960 and I hope he gets more work out of it because his illustrations and the 1078 01:21:12.960 --> 01:21:17.239 cover and everything are just beautiful. Looks like a nineteen fifties science fiction movie 1079 01:21:17.880 --> 01:21:21.520 poster, which is perfect. Do you do you recognize what that thing is 1080 01:21:21.560 --> 01:21:27.880 standing in the light on the underneath the UFO? Yeah, that's I can't 1081 01:21:27.880 --> 01:21:30.760 remember the name of the case, but yeah, that early very popular case 1082 01:21:31.239 --> 01:21:35.159 those guys in back east somewhere, wasn't it. Or Pasca Gula? Yeah, 1083 01:21:35.199 --> 01:21:39.600 Pasca Goula. Yeah, that's my favorite. My favorite alien is the 1084 01:21:39.600 --> 01:21:42.880 Pasca Gooula alien because it looks like it sort of looks like a Kachina. 1085 01:21:43.560 --> 01:21:46.720 Yeah, well, it's so weird. In the early you know, creatures 1086 01:21:46.800 --> 01:21:50.159 things where people were seeing, and in the seventies when lots of humanoids were 1087 01:21:50.159 --> 01:21:55.479 seeing, they were so varied in the descriptions. They are odd and weird, 1088 01:21:55.720 --> 01:22:01.279 and the best cases really have really odd description of what has been seeing. 1089 01:22:02.000 --> 01:22:08.399 Yeah, it's it's I think that's highly significant that, especially nineteen seventies 1090 01:22:08.439 --> 01:22:13.640 and before the things that people saw we were very different. Everybody had a 1091 01:22:13.640 --> 01:22:16.439 different you know, there were so many different humanoid types that people reported. 1092 01:22:17.239 --> 01:22:24.920 Kind of makes kind of makes you a little questioning about Roswell too. It's 1093 01:22:24.960 --> 01:22:28.079 like, wow, that kind of conforms to what everybody thinks it is now. 1094 01:22:28.479 --> 01:22:31.039 Yeah, seventy eight, you know, start maybe on the sixties sort 1095 01:22:31.079 --> 01:22:35.000 of Betty Betty and Barney Hill sort of conformed to that. Not really, 1096 01:22:35.039 --> 01:22:42.199 but then definitely after Bud Hopkins and Willy Strieber's books, especially the cover of 1097 01:22:42.239 --> 01:22:45.760 Communion, that's what everybody thought an alien looked like. So a lot of 1098 01:22:45.760 --> 01:22:48.439 the sightings narrowed down to that. And I think it's because people had a 1099 01:22:48.479 --> 01:22:54.760 template to put on their experience. There's subconscious or whatever's going on. Just 1100 01:22:54.800 --> 01:22:58.000 said Okay, that's what the thing looks like. So that's you know these 1101 01:22:58.000 --> 01:23:02.159 cases nineteen seventy and before nineteen eighty and before I guess nineteen seventies was a 1102 01:23:02.239 --> 01:23:06.359 very strange decade for humanoid cases. Yes, just as Albert rosalz Or look 1103 01:23:06.399 --> 01:23:12.000 at his site, all right, right, and of course that's when the 1104 01:23:12.479 --> 01:23:19.039 the main case happened. And and Travis Walton, Yeah, yeah, I 1105 01:23:19.279 --> 01:23:24.159 thought that was a major reveal in your book that Red Pelt Junkie is actually 1106 01:23:24.319 --> 01:23:29.520 Miguel Romero. Yeah. So yeah, and you're right, his illustrations are 1107 01:23:29.640 --> 01:23:31.840 really cool, They're awesome. He did a great job in this. Yeah. 1108 01:23:32.000 --> 01:23:40.800 Yeah. And I guess lastly just to end on for the the all 1109 01:23:40.880 --> 01:23:44.479 of the people who you know, there's there's some people a lot of my 1110 01:23:45.439 --> 01:23:49.880 listeners like the critical thinking and their reviewing of all of the and the kind 1111 01:23:49.880 --> 01:23:57.439 of skeptical review of stuff. But what are just for the something for people 1112 01:23:57.439 --> 01:24:00.720 to chew on and to look up. What do you feel our of the 1113 01:24:00.720 --> 01:24:05.319 most credible cases, maybe even if you have one that people aren't generally aware 1114 01:24:05.319 --> 01:24:15.600 of, h if there are any I would you know what I would say 1115 01:24:15.760 --> 01:24:23.279 anything before for abduction cases, anything you can find before nineteen eighty because the 1116 01:24:23.600 --> 01:24:28.239 things became codified. That for you know, classic cases, Like I said, 1117 01:24:28.279 --> 01:24:30.960 I like that Hafflin case. The Pasca Goola case is wonderful apart from 1118 01:24:30.960 --> 01:24:33.279 the fact that the there was more than one type of alien, but that 1119 01:24:33.319 --> 01:24:38.439 was the main one, was that kachina looking thing because because of the secret 1120 01:24:38.439 --> 01:24:42.520 recording that was made of the of the two main witnesses when the police weren't 1121 01:24:42.560 --> 01:24:45.079 there and they didn't think they were being recorded. Yeah. Yeah, so 1122 01:24:45.119 --> 01:24:47.319 people say, what are we going to say next? They're both just sitting 1123 01:24:47.319 --> 01:24:49.359 there going, what the hell happened? What are we going to do? 1124 01:24:49.399 --> 01:24:51.079 What? You know? How are you know? How are we How's this 1125 01:24:51.079 --> 01:24:54.840 gonna affect our lives? I'm totally freaked out, you know, all this 1126 01:24:54.880 --> 01:24:58.159 stuff. When then when nobody was listening, So, something definitely strange happened 1127 01:24:58.159 --> 01:25:00.560 to those two guys. I don't know exactly what it was or what I 1128 01:25:00.600 --> 01:25:02.640 would have seen if I was standing there, but to me, that's you 1129 01:25:02.640 --> 01:25:08.239 know, very strong indication that the something very strange happened to a couple of 1130 01:25:08.239 --> 01:25:12.760 guys that had no motivation whatsoever to lie about it. The weird thing is 1131 01:25:12.760 --> 01:25:17.079 that Charles Hickson, the one of the witnesses in the case, had two 1132 01:25:17.159 --> 01:25:23.479 more sightings after that, and he wrote about them in in a in uh 1133 01:25:23.800 --> 01:25:26.600 I think it's called UFO Contact at Pasco Gooule or something like that, a 1134 01:25:26.600 --> 01:25:31.840 book that came out in the late seventies, and he's described seeing seeing another 1135 01:25:31.960 --> 01:25:34.840 craft in the in the in the woods, in the in the south in 1136 01:25:35.079 --> 01:25:40.560 Mississippi where he lived, and his family saw it too, So there's other 1137 01:25:40.560 --> 01:25:42.720 people that saw it, So you know what, what what do you make 1138 01:25:42.760 --> 01:25:45.720 of that? So something very strange is going on with Charles Hickson and and 1139 01:25:45.920 --> 01:25:50.800 Calvin Parker. But I think that's a well documented, meanted and well uh 1140 01:25:51.920 --> 01:25:57.800 a case that to me is kind of a landmark if you want to if 1141 01:25:57.800 --> 01:25:59.840 you want to start with a landmark case, just really get it. If 1142 01:25:59.840 --> 01:26:02.520 you find a copy of that Charles Hickson book, I think it was he 1143 01:26:02.560 --> 01:26:08.560 was he had a co writer. I think Menendez or Melendez was the name 1144 01:26:08.600 --> 01:26:10.840 of the co writer. Anyway, if you can find that book, it's 1145 01:26:10.920 --> 01:26:15.119 fascinating book. All right. My last question, because yeah, that's great, 1146 01:26:15.159 --> 01:26:19.359 that's perfect Pascagoula, which now people know what's on the cover here where 1147 01:26:19.399 --> 01:26:23.880 that creature comes from. But the last question about the book, then it 1148 01:26:24.000 --> 01:26:28.199 defies language. What does that mean to you? What was when you came 1149 01:26:28.279 --> 01:26:31.520 up with that title? Did you hear me talk about this before? Because 1150 01:26:31.560 --> 01:26:36.640 I loved this question? No, I haven't. I was working on putting 1151 01:26:36.680 --> 01:26:43.039 all these essays together, writing some new ones, finding stuff that nobody had 1152 01:26:43.039 --> 01:26:46.479 ever read before, you know, rare stuff that I just set on my 1153 01:26:46.520 --> 01:26:51.239 computer for years. I'm getting all this stuff together and Red Pills working with 1154 01:26:51.279 --> 01:26:56.159 me, and he says, I need a title so I can start designing 1155 01:26:56.159 --> 01:26:58.760 this cover. And this is October of last year. I said, okay, 1156 01:26:58.800 --> 01:27:01.239 I'll come up with a title. November, December, January. I 1157 01:27:01.319 --> 01:27:05.000 still don't have a title. I can't think of one. I was like, 1158 01:27:05.039 --> 01:27:08.479 what the hell am I going to call this? So I took the 1159 01:27:08.520 --> 01:27:12.119 introduction to the book that I'd already written and put it in an online cut 1160 01:27:12.239 --> 01:27:15.600 up generator, which is basically it takes all the words you have and jumbles 1161 01:27:15.600 --> 01:27:18.359 them completely randomly, all the same words you know, like, you know, 1162 01:27:18.359 --> 01:27:23.159 fifteen hundred words, You get fifteen hundred words back in this cut up 1163 01:27:23.199 --> 01:27:28.319 generator and it just jumbles them into gibberish completely randomly. I took that and 1164 01:27:28.359 --> 01:27:30.840 I started reading through the gibberish, and anytime a phrase came to my head, 1165 01:27:30.880 --> 01:27:33.840 I would write it down. And that was one of the phrases that 1166 01:27:33.960 --> 01:27:40.560 came out. Oh that's hilarious, because because about four or five different phrases 1167 01:27:40.600 --> 01:27:44.680 came out, I put them in. I think one of them was extraordinary 1168 01:27:44.720 --> 01:27:45.880 claims. And I thought, oh, no, that sounds like a total 1169 01:27:45.920 --> 01:27:49.920 skeptical book. I don't you know that the skeptic you know, the fundamental 1170 01:27:50.479 --> 01:27:56.039 one. Yeah, fundamental skeptical movement has co opted that phrase and turned it 1171 01:27:56.079 --> 01:28:00.920 into something that scares people don't like. I settled on its little too cliche. 1172 01:28:00.960 --> 01:28:03.960 It's a little more cliche. I settle on it defies language two reasons. 1173 01:28:03.960 --> 01:28:09.279 One, it's hilarious. It's a book called it Defies Language. That's 1174 01:28:09.359 --> 01:28:14.520 great. And two, I think that the terms we use to describe what 1175 01:28:14.560 --> 01:28:18.560 we see or what UFOs are are limiting us because language limits your thought. 1176 01:28:18.640 --> 01:28:23.199 It only lets you think about certain things that you can describe in language. 1177 01:28:23.560 --> 01:28:26.319 So I'm what I'm saying is a lot of you know, a lot of 1178 01:28:26.359 --> 01:28:31.079 the UFO, any paranormal stuff is limited by the language and the language determines 1179 01:28:31.119 --> 01:28:34.199 how we think about it, and there's got to be a way to get 1180 01:28:34.239 --> 01:28:38.159 around that. I'm not not exactly sure what it is. It might lie 1181 01:28:38.159 --> 01:28:41.199 in the realm of you know, creative thinking or art. I'm not sure. 1182 01:28:41.239 --> 01:28:44.840 I've got I've got an essay on there called UFOs is a Cosmic art 1183 01:28:44.880 --> 01:28:49.479 project. And then I've got a part two. Basically, yes, I 1184 01:28:49.720 --> 01:28:55.399 I in the talk I'm working on. I'm trying to bring in more things 1185 01:28:55.479 --> 01:29:00.520 like archetypes and jung and mythology. My wife is working on a doctorate in 1186 01:29:00.560 --> 01:29:04.439 that right now. Wow, So actually have a lot of conversations with her 1187 01:29:04.479 --> 01:29:08.239 about it, and it's relevant to what I'm trying to figure out right now, 1188 01:29:08.239 --> 01:29:12.359 because I think a lot of the thing what's most important with the UFO 1189 01:29:12.520 --> 01:29:17.079 question to me is what causes UFO sightings? What do people see when they 1190 01:29:17.079 --> 01:29:20.399 have an unexplained sighting of something? What is it that they're looking at. 1191 01:29:20.600 --> 01:29:24.560 I don't know what that is, but I think it has a lot to 1192 01:29:24.600 --> 01:29:27.279 do with who we are, how we think about things, what our language 1193 01:29:27.319 --> 01:29:30.199 is like, all that, and it comes through all those filters before we 1194 01:29:30.560 --> 01:29:34.439 decide that I've seen a flying saucer with aliens on it or whatever we decide. 1195 01:29:34.640 --> 01:29:38.159 So that to me is fascinating, and that, to me is a 1196 01:29:38.239 --> 01:29:42.279 very important question what do people see? And we have to go back to 1197 01:29:42.279 --> 01:29:46.119 a basic question like that, what do people see? How do they see 1198 01:29:46.119 --> 01:29:49.279 it? And is there any way to get past get out of our own 1199 01:29:49.319 --> 01:29:54.000 way? If you know what I'm saying here, m h Well perfect, 1200 01:29:54.119 --> 01:29:59.359 And where are you going to do this talk? I've already done one very 1201 01:29:59.399 --> 01:30:02.840 embryonic version of it and the next as far as I know, the next 1202 01:30:02.920 --> 01:30:10.479 version is going to be at IUFOC next year. That's right. So yeah, 1203 01:30:10.520 --> 01:30:15.800 we're announcing it again that I've done this actually with I think the last 1204 01:30:15.840 --> 01:30:20.319 guest, and we haven't officially announced anybody yet, but I've been announcing a 1205 01:30:20.319 --> 01:30:24.520 person to show, not intentionally, it's just working out that way. So 1206 01:30:24.880 --> 01:30:29.680 we had Paul Stonehill was our guest last week and he will be speaking at 1207 01:30:29.680 --> 01:30:33.199 the conference. He's also got a new book out And yes, you for 1208 01:30:34.279 --> 01:30:36.800 and this isn't your first time. It's your first time with us. But 1209 01:30:38.199 --> 01:30:43.239 you've spoke at the UFO Congress a few other times, haven't you? Two 1210 01:30:43.359 --> 01:30:46.840 or three times? The last time probably was almost ten years ago, Yeah, 1211 01:30:46.880 --> 01:30:49.479 because I started saying things that made people mad, and I didn't come 1212 01:30:49.479 --> 01:30:53.600 out with a lot of books. But I think one I released this book, 1213 01:30:53.640 --> 01:30:56.479 and two, I think people are starting to, especially in the last 1214 01:30:56.520 --> 01:31:00.119 year or so, which is wonderful, are starting to become more open mind 1215 01:31:00.239 --> 01:31:05.119 about going back to basics and starting to look at things rather than in the 1216 01:31:05.199 --> 01:31:09.520 nuts and bolts and how can we measure it? And all that thing going 1217 01:31:09.800 --> 01:31:12.399 going back to what I just said, what do we see, how do 1218 01:31:12.439 --> 01:31:17.960 we see it? And how does that reflect on how we think about it? 1219 01:31:19.119 --> 01:31:23.600 You know what, you can't make a UFO come up on demand. 1220 01:31:23.640 --> 01:31:26.039 It just it just doesn't work. So you've got to think of different ways 1221 01:31:26.039 --> 01:31:29.159 to study them. Yeah, And on the far end, the fringe end, 1222 01:31:29.600 --> 01:31:32.319 I think they're rethinking things too, because on the fringe, a lot 1223 01:31:32.359 --> 01:31:36.359 of those people out there who are the ones that they follow, you know, 1224 01:31:36.520 --> 01:31:42.520 almost like the UFO profits, They've made all these promises about what's going 1225 01:31:42.560 --> 01:31:46.000 to come to fruition and none of those things have happened, And so I 1226 01:31:46.039 --> 01:31:51.279 think they're kind of relooking at everything themselves as well. So, which isn't 1227 01:31:51.279 --> 01:31:54.600 a bad thing at all. We all, I think need to kind of 1228 01:31:55.479 --> 01:32:00.520 constantly be challenging ourselves in our own beliefs. Yeah, trust no one except 1229 01:32:00.520 --> 01:32:06.800 for your ability to, you know, to discern what's what's more credible and 1230 01:32:06.840 --> 01:32:11.399 believable or not. I think that's only the only person you should trust is 1231 01:32:11.439 --> 01:32:15.760 yourself trusting it. Putting your total trust in anybody else's, I think is 1232 01:32:15.880 --> 01:32:19.159 always a huge mistake. Amen to that. Brother. Well, it was 1233 01:32:19.239 --> 01:32:24.199 awesome having you on. This was a great talk, and we'll definitely talk 1234 01:32:24.359 --> 01:32:28.199 again, I'm sure before the conference. I would like to at least, 1235 01:32:28.520 --> 01:32:31.720 but very very excited to have you speaking at the conference as well. And 1236 01:32:31.760 --> 01:32:36.600 I highly highly recommend the book. And where can people Where's the best place 1237 01:32:36.640 --> 01:32:40.479 for people to go get the book? Well, for me, the best 1238 01:32:40.479 --> 01:32:44.560 place is go to lululu dot com because I get the biggest chunk from it. 1239 01:32:44.640 --> 01:32:47.760 Good. Then that's where we will send people. Yeah, I can 1240 01:32:47.800 --> 01:32:51.880 send you those links. But it's also I actually formatted it for Kindle myself. 1241 01:32:51.880 --> 01:32:57.520 The Kindle version actually is about half the price, and there's about seventy 1242 01:32:57.560 --> 01:33:01.479 more pages of material and color color illustrations and pictures and things like that in 1243 01:33:01.520 --> 01:33:04.279 it, and links and things like that, things that you can do in 1244 01:33:04.319 --> 01:33:06.720 a kindle that you can't do in a print book. So yeah, either 1245 01:33:06.760 --> 01:33:13.920 go to Amazon you can buy it there by a kindle, or the best 1246 01:33:13.960 --> 01:33:17.279 for me is Lulu. Secondarily, the best for me is actually Kindle if 1247 01:33:17.319 --> 01:33:21.439 people want to do it that way, but cool and kindle. Yeah, 1248 01:33:21.520 --> 01:33:25.880 all right, thanks so much for being on All right, thanks so much 1249 01:33:25.920 --> 01:33:28.960 for having me Alhandra and I'll talk to you again soon. Thank you so 1250 01:33:29.119 --> 01:33:32.640 much to Greg Bishop for being on the show. I mean, I hope 1251 01:33:32.640 --> 01:33:36.800 you all really enjoyed that. I certainly did. In fact, this might 1252 01:33:36.800 --> 01:33:41.039 have been one of my favorite shows in a long time. Although I have 1253 01:33:41.079 --> 01:33:43.880 a lot of fun, as you can tell with most of the shows, 1254 01:33:44.279 --> 01:33:48.359 so this was really really fascinating. I apologize if we got too much into 1255 01:33:48.359 --> 01:33:54.399 the details. I just feel that this is a situation where we have on 1256 01:33:54.439 --> 01:33:59.000 the record an Air Force official, while he was in the Air Force talking 1257 01:33:59.000 --> 01:34:06.239 about UFO and giving information to people in the public, information that he at 1258 01:34:06.239 --> 01:34:12.520 the time purported was real UFO documents and now admittedly says they were not. 1259 01:34:13.279 --> 01:34:19.840 So he is essentially admitting to being involved with fraudulent activity while he was in 1260 01:34:19.880 --> 01:34:26.600 the Air Force. I think the Air Force needs to respond to this, 1261 01:34:27.079 --> 01:34:30.640 and that's why at Open Mindset TV, I do have an open letter to 1262 01:34:30.680 --> 01:34:35.039 the Air Force where I outline all of the evidence and of course citing Great 1263 01:34:35.079 --> 01:34:41.680 Bishop's Project Beta, but also Greg Bishop's appearance on Coast to Coast with Richard 1264 01:34:41.760 --> 01:34:45.640 Dody, where Richard Dody admits to all of this. You can hear him 1265 01:34:45.119 --> 01:34:50.800 firsthand. So I just think that this case is really important for those reasons. 1266 01:34:51.199 --> 01:34:57.479 You will not find this elsewhere. So if the Air Force had any 1267 01:34:57.520 --> 01:35:00.399 involvement, and essentially you can see the information I have when I made requests 1268 01:35:00.399 --> 01:35:05.199 to the Air Force A, we're essentially saying no, we didn't. However, 1269 01:35:05.720 --> 01:35:15.439 the documents they showed me demonstrated that Richard Dody was involved with false information 1270 01:35:16.000 --> 01:35:23.399 being or given to somebody, including two senators. So you can hear this 1271 01:35:23.720 --> 01:35:29.199 in my report there and you can see it in the report. So the 1272 01:35:29.279 --> 01:35:35.840 Air Force absolutely needs to make an official comment as to whether or not Richard 1273 01:35:35.840 --> 01:35:46.560 Dody was under orders to do this bs that he was doing out there, 1274 01:35:46.640 --> 01:35:53.960 and their only response to this whole thing has been to write bogus on one 1275 01:35:53.960 --> 01:35:58.279 of the m J twelve documents. Okay, sure that documents bogus. But 1276 01:35:58.560 --> 01:36:05.880 why is it that your employee, your you know, is the one who 1277 01:36:06.880 --> 01:36:13.039 was involved with at first dispensing this information. I mean that was That's the 1278 01:36:13.039 --> 01:36:16.359 big question they have yet to answer. So hopefully we can get these sort 1279 01:36:16.359 --> 01:36:21.279 of answers because it's important and we need to know if Great Bishop is in 1280 01:36:21.359 --> 01:36:27.279 fact correct. You know that you know, all of this mythology that has 1281 01:36:27.319 --> 01:36:34.000 been built in the UFO community that people cling to UH was all part of 1282 01:36:34.039 --> 01:36:40.880 a disinformation UH project by the US Air Force in order to cover up projects 1283 01:36:40.920 --> 01:36:44.720 so the Russians wouldn't find that out? Is that the case? And you 1284 01:36:44.760 --> 01:36:48.840 know, some people get afraid and I think upset because then they think that 1285 01:36:48.840 --> 01:36:55.399 that kind of poopoo's the entire idea of UFOs. But no, I don't, 1286 01:36:55.479 --> 01:36:59.760 not at all. We still have blue Book, we still have Roswell, 1287 01:36:59.840 --> 01:37:02.640 we still have Rendershom, we still have a lot of great cases and 1288 01:37:02.760 --> 01:37:09.920 situations that are credible. But it's important for understanding, for us to understand 1289 01:37:09.920 --> 01:37:14.520 what isn't is not credible, so we can make sure that we're not following 1290 01:37:14.640 --> 01:37:17.960 chasing our tails or you know, going on these wild goose chases. Because 1291 01:37:17.960 --> 01:37:25.199 certainly some people have built their careers around this mythology that came out during the 1292 01:37:25.319 --> 01:37:28.800 Doughty years. So other than that, great Bishop, I mean, what 1293 01:37:28.960 --> 01:37:33.000 a great guy, what a great researcher. I very much implore everyone to 1294 01:37:33.119 --> 01:37:39.319 check out his podcast Radio Mysterio, and then also check out his book, 1295 01:37:40.560 --> 01:37:44.439 which, as he talked about, you can find on Amazon or ascribed or 1296 01:37:44.520 --> 01:37:48.720 get the kindle version. So thank you very much to Great Bishop. A 1297 01:37:48.760 --> 01:37:53.800 couple notes. I noted this earlier, but and I want to repeat this, 1298 01:37:53.920 --> 01:37:57.399 not just because I'm speaking at these venues, but because you know, 1299 01:37:58.239 --> 01:38:00.920 I'm very grateful to these guys to allow me to share my information and to 1300 01:38:00.920 --> 01:38:04.920 share what Open Minds does with their audiences. So I want to make sure 1301 01:38:04.960 --> 01:38:10.079 and do what I can to help them get audiences. But I want to 1302 01:38:10.079 --> 01:38:14.439 thank the Roswell Daily Record again. I'll be there this weekend. You can 1303 01:38:14.520 --> 01:38:18.199 go just google the Roswell Daily Record and you'll see the Roswell Incident, which 1304 01:38:18.279 --> 01:38:24.000 is information about their event that is going on this weekend in honor of the 1305 01:38:24.039 --> 01:38:30.039 anniversary of the Roswell Incident, and I'll be speaking there. You'll also be 1306 01:38:30.079 --> 01:38:33.880 able to go across down the street and to the UFO Museum and see people 1307 01:38:33.960 --> 01:38:41.279 like Don Schmidt and Travis Walton and Stanton Friedman and Kathleen Martin and Avon Smith 1308 01:38:41.279 --> 01:38:44.920 and a number of other people. I'm forgetting many people, but they've got 1309 01:38:44.920 --> 01:38:47.159 a lot of great speakers there too, so it's just a lot of fun 1310 01:38:47.199 --> 01:38:51.880 and I love seeing everybody there, and of course it's always fun to hang 1311 01:38:51.920 --> 01:38:55.640 out with my good buddy Lee Spiegel. Ben Hansen is going to be out 1312 01:38:55.680 --> 01:39:00.159 there doing a SkyWatch like he just for the UFO Congress as well. And 1313 01:39:00.199 --> 01:39:04.640 then I also want to thank Mofon because they're going to be having me speak, 1314 01:39:04.640 --> 01:39:09.119 and be sure to schedule your travel and get out there if you can. 1315 01:39:09.199 --> 01:39:15.119 The Moufon Symposium. I'll be speaking about official government UFO agencies because as 1316 01:39:15.159 --> 01:39:17.800 you know, I've interviewed a lot of the officials at work for these agencies, 1317 01:39:18.359 --> 01:39:26.119 and not everybody knows the details about which ones exist currently and why they 1318 01:39:26.199 --> 01:39:31.600 exist, because that's where the interesting story is. Many of these agencies exist 1319 01:39:31.760 --> 01:39:40.079 today because of incredible UFO incidents that happened in their countries that caught the eye 1320 01:39:40.119 --> 01:39:45.439 of the public and or their government officials. In the case of France, 1321 01:39:45.520 --> 01:39:49.600 the President was very interested in one case, and that's kind of what encouraged 1322 01:39:49.640 --> 01:39:56.760 them to get into UFO research. So I'm really excited to share this information 1323 01:39:56.880 --> 01:39:59.960 at the Moufon Symposium. Thank you guys for having me there. You could 1324 01:40:00.119 --> 01:40:03.119 just look up Moufon Symposium and find more information about that. Plus I talked 1325 01:40:03.119 --> 01:40:08.159 about Richard Hoffman earlier, he's gonna be there. Oh, they just announced 1326 01:40:08.159 --> 01:40:13.680 two Robert Hastings, who I had on the show recently, does the investigation 1327 01:40:13.840 --> 01:40:16.279 or the work on UFO nukes. That's gonna be their keynote speaker. So 1328 01:40:16.359 --> 01:40:20.640 that's an exciting one. Otherwise, they have a whole list of exciting speakers, 1329 01:40:20.680 --> 01:40:25.920 and so you could go to moufon dot com or just google Moufon Symposium 1330 01:40:26.239 --> 01:40:29.479 and find out more about that, or for all of these, you can 1331 01:40:29.520 --> 01:40:34.399 go to the event page at Openminds dot tv and be able to get links 1332 01:40:34.399 --> 01:40:41.079 and information there as well. So it's going to be a fun and interesting 1333 01:40:41.600 --> 01:40:47.079 summer. And then of course we are taking registrations for the UFO Congress right 1334 01:40:47.119 --> 01:40:51.960 now, and let me give you another name of a speaker. Let's see 1335 01:40:51.960 --> 01:40:55.920 who have I got confirmed. I've already told you guys, we're gonna have 1336 01:40:56.000 --> 01:41:02.039 Ryan Sprague, We're gonna have Paul Stonehel We're also gonna have Well. We're 1337 01:41:02.039 --> 01:41:08.000 gonna have Kathleen Martin and Avonne Smith. So Von Smith is there every year 1338 01:41:08.680 --> 01:41:15.840 to talk about Well too. She always does the panel, she helps us 1339 01:41:15.960 --> 01:41:23.079 guide the panel for abductions at the conference, and she does the experiencer sessions 1340 01:41:23.159 --> 01:41:27.000 during the day and night where people can come and share their experiences. She 1341 01:41:27.199 --> 01:41:30.039 will also have her own talk. Now I'm not sure what even the topic's 1342 01:41:30.079 --> 01:41:33.600 gonna be, but I'm excited about that. And Kathleen Martin is gonna be 1343 01:41:33.640 --> 01:41:40.079 speaking about something she usually doesn't. She's move On's abduction expert, and of 1344 01:41:40.079 --> 01:41:43.800 course she's the niece of Betty Hill. However, she's gonna be talking about 1345 01:41:43.840 --> 01:41:46.560 weirdness that goes on with different UFO cases. So this is a talk I 1346 01:41:46.600 --> 01:41:50.319 don't know that she's ever done before, and it's gonna be something completely different. 1347 01:41:50.600 --> 01:41:54.159 So that'll be a lot of fun. So there's a couple other names. 1348 01:41:54.319 --> 01:41:58.840 We'll have more names up for you probably next week. So we're really 1349 01:41:58.880 --> 01:42:01.279 looking forward to the U Congress this year. I think it's gonna be a 1350 01:42:01.319 --> 01:42:05.399 great lineup. I'm so excited by the people. We've got confirmations from so 1351 01:42:05.520 --> 01:42:09.479 far, and we'll be letting you know more about that. But right now 1352 01:42:09.520 --> 01:42:14.359 you can get the super early Bird special, and like I said, on 1353 01:42:14.479 --> 01:42:18.079 July second, watch our social media, we'll send out information on how you 1354 01:42:18.119 --> 01:42:24.359 can get an even bigger discount. So essentially the cheapest prices are. On 1355 01:42:24.439 --> 01:42:27.880 July second, I will be out of town, so I'm gonna be hard 1356 01:42:27.880 --> 01:42:31.399 to reach, so you're gonna have to watch our social media and so it'll 1357 01:42:31.439 --> 01:42:36.680 get you more information about that. So exciting stuff. Oh my gosh, 1358 01:42:36.800 --> 01:42:41.680 and it's a long weekend. How cool is that. I hope you all 1359 01:42:41.720 --> 01:42:45.479 have a wonderful July for us. I want to thank Caleb Hanks for the 1360 01:42:45.560 --> 01:42:49.319 opening and close music. I want to thank the Dark Matters Network for playing 1361 01:42:49.720 --> 01:42:55.479 or replaying our show, also the PSN network that replace our show. And 1362 01:42:55.640 --> 01:43:00.199 I want to thank you the most the listeners for being there to listen every 1363 01:43:00.279 --> 01:43:05.000 week. It's so fun to be able to share this information with you, 1364 01:43:05.239 --> 01:43:10.479 and it just means a lot that there's so many of you out there that 1365 01:43:10.800 --> 01:43:15.119 enjoy hearing it. So we'll talk to you again in a couple of weeks. 1366 01:43:15.239 --> 01:44:14.560 Have a great July fourth weekend. Audios mood Chattos, your emotionless soun