Hello, and welcome to Open minds UFO Radio. I am your host,
Alejandro Rojas, and I am here with that Martin bad connection. Willis.
Well, let's hope that's not true. Yeah, actually it sounds good.
We were having problems a minute ago, but it sounding good. Yeah.
The internet's been intermittent here, but we better we better start, you know,
just keep talking and get into it. Huh. Okay, Well,
first I'll talk about my guest, and that is I'm really this is what
I'm super excited about because it's been years in the making. Again, cannot
believe that I haven't had a mom before. But my guest is Greg Bishop,
and I'm a really big fan of his. I often reference his book
Project Beta. And the reason why is, of course, people who listen
to my show know that I'm into this whole Richard Dodie, William Moore thing.
And I actually am going to give a short overview for people just so
they can be on the same page. We talk about it in the show,
but I want to make sure that everybody has a strong idea of what
we're talking about. So because it's more fun when you feel like you know
what people are talking about. But essentially the situation where this gentleman William Moore,
who is a big deal because because of the Roswell event which is coming
up here soon and Greg and I will talk about that, but he was
a UFO researcher. It turned out he was working with a guy who was
working for the Air Force, Richard Dody. Richard Tody claimed that you know,
he was doing this this information program, and his outlet for information was
this man named Paul Benowitz who wasn't in the know, and Benowitz working a
Klin Air Force base, and Benowitz was a scientist, and so he believed
he was getting these signals and pictures of aliens. And Doty said, we
wanted him to believe that so that the Russians wouldn't find out what he was
really getting, which was signals and pictures of our secret projects here at Kirtland.
So we fed him a bunch of stuff about aliens. The guy got
paranoid, essentially went crazy. Turned out years later that Bill Moore was working
with Dody and helping him with all of this stuff. So very controversial issue.
I've written something up and talked about it quite a bit, but I
think the only one who's talked about it, probably more than I via a
podcast is our guest today, which is Great Bishop. He has his own
podcast called Radio Mysterioso, and like he says, he's been podcasting before it
was called podcasting. So a big fan of Great Bishops. And you'll hear
why when we talk more about all of this in just a minute. Yes,
I have been trying to get Greg on my own show. His hours
are his hours just do not line up with my show. Unfortunately, it's
too bad because he's great. And this whole thing about Dodie and the misinformation,
now I know he had Chris Lambright who's a friend of mine. He
was on your show talking a bit about the Paul Benowitz case. What a
convoluted mess, that whole thing, And it's really where Dulcie was first,
you know, actually disinformation generated from MJ twelve thing and MJ twelve, that's
right, the beginnings of that. Yeah, so we don't talk so much
more. Pardon me, Bill Moore walks out, you know, I mean
basically comes clean. It's in the interview. This is what we talk about
with great rightship, So you can edit this out. No, I'm not
going to know, all right, another awkward moment, but anyway, Yeah,
I'm not going to edit it out. But you know you're talking what
you're discussing, you're obviously excited about too, because it is terribly interesting,
and so I didn't want to spend the whole time talking about this. In
fact, I want to have Great Bishop on later to talk more about this.
But actually, to be honest, most of the show turned out to
be talking about this because I wanted to talk about other things that Great Bishop
is up to, because he just wrote a book called It Defies Language,
which is really cool too, with a lot of different stories about ufology,
but a lot of it comes back to this for him. So and one
of the reasons he's so important is he's one of the few people still talking
to Bill Moore. So yeah, we'll get into all of that. Wow,
fascinating, huh it is I didn't know that. I didn't know anyone
was talking to Bill. Oh yeah, wait, yeah, he's the only
one. So yep, you will enjoy the show as well. I will,
yes, But before that, let's get into the news UFO news.
Did it did did did it? Did? Did so? Go ahead,
and what's the first story? You wanted to talk about there, Betty Well,
I think this is a great one. This is this happened all the
way back on October two, twenty twelve, and it's another posting by Roger
Marsh. He's digging through to find all these really interesting mofon case. This
is case number forty three and five zero. Can be right, Let me
sure I got that down. Oh, the witness says, the triangle UFO
emitted sound of horns and trumpets. Yeah, really bizarre. This is in
Davis, California, where I know there's a university there. I used to
drive by there. He was watching and videotaping with his phone a triangle shaped
UFO until his phone conked out. He only got about thirty one seconds I
think now. His dog seemed very anxious and wanted to go outside. This
is at one forty three am again on October second, twenty twelve, when
this incident occurred. And this is a quote by him. I remember hearing
a loud sound of what sounded like what seemed like horns or trumpets from all
around, the witness stated, And I remember being very early in the morning,
maybe two AM, and thinking, why isn't anyone else waking up to
this sound. So he went out and he saw this triangular formation of lights,
and you can see on the video that's posted on open Minds that there's
like these flashing flash formation of lights. It's not navigation lights, not the
way they flashed, because the center light is flashing as well. Really great,
short little video, but this kind of reminds me of something you hear
Linda multen Howe talking about how people are hearing these sounds of trumpets and horns.
They're reporting it all over the world, which is kind of strange,
you know, just another one of those strange phenomena. But it kind of
reminded me of that, and it's definitely an interesting case. Check it out.
Yeah, that is an interesting case. The video is pretty good.
Some people were saying those are definitely airplane strobe lights, and I AM posted
a video in the story of some strobe lights and it could be. I
mean, you can put them wherever you want over your plane, and it
does look stro similar. But so the video alone, I guess you can't
for sure and say it's not an aircraft with strobe lights. But it is
a very vivid video, so people can take a look this object seem to
be pretty close, and the California investigator, he even made some comments in
the story, and I talk about his comments. He very much feels like
this was an unknown and something strange. So the trumpets thing, again,
you can't hear these trumpets in the video. The witness said he saw these
things and heard the trumpets twice. So again, you know, it's hard
because I haven't seen a convincing video of the trumpets thing. They all seem
kind of dubious, and some of them have been proven to be hoaxes.
So so I don't know. But is it based on something real? Maybe
I don't know, but that at least the the move on guy really thought
this witness was was credible and that this was the real deal. But yeah,
it's an interesting video. What kind of blowhearts would be hoaxing trumpet noises?
What kind of blowhards are these aliens? Anyway? Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, a bunch of blowhearts all over. No, that's I like
that A couple things. I guess I'll get to this one first. I
wanted to write a story about it, and I've done some research on it,
but you know what, I'm not going to have time. I got
to get ready for Roswell tomorrow. Hopefully I might have time to write something
on it tomorrow maybe, but just in case I don't, I'm going to
talk about it anyway. I don't even have something up on the website about
this, but some of you may have heard about it, and if not,
then you'll hear about here, which is good. But essentially there's a
story going on out there about this guy, Victor Vigiano. Have you heard
this one? No, Victor Vigiani. So they had this Canadian kind of
panel this weekend and Richard Dolan was there, Grant Cameron, some other Canadian
researchers, and the previous Defense Minister for Canada, Paul Hellier, was there.
He's been at the IUFO c. Of course, hell You's subscribed to
a lot of really fringe ideas in ufology. Unfortunately, he has no official
story. He didn't investigate UFOs. He says a general told him that the
Roswell thing was real. He hasn't identified who that is, but that's about
the only thing he has that isn't outside of just kind of reading kind of
the more fringe stuff on the internet. But during this Victor Vigiani, who
has a newspaper kind of thing that he does in h and he really writes
some really fringe, wild kind of stories and sometimes he just feels that aliens
are here to attack and stuff. So like this this story that we just
reviewed, if he were to write it, he would have said something like
aliens attack Davis, California or something like that. And I hear he's a
really nice guy. I think that's just genuinely what he feels is going on.
So he made a comment in this meeting that I've got these files from
Noorad. They're amazing. They prove that they're looking at aliens, and I
am going to talk about these and share them with the world, even though
I can go to jail and get indicted. Any read part of a file
that says any distribution of this kind of information threatens national security and violates the
Espionage Act of the United States. So it sounds really exciting, right,
And then he finally gave these files to Roger marsh again of Moufon who posted
them. But like always, major disappointment. It's none of that stuff.
So these files, which aren't great, they're Canadian files, so they're interesting,
they're older files. I'm actually going to be speaking about some of these
files at the Moufon Symposium in August in Orlando. I'm going to be talking
about government UFO agencies and Canada for a small period of time had an official
UFO investigation and some of these files stem from that. But they're just kind
of like the blue book files. Nothing too exciting, but some interesting cases
that they investigated, so nothing too interesting there. He also cited a letter,
and this is the only piece of new information. He wrote a letter
saying he wants the UFO information from nora AD, which is the North American
like radar command sort of thing where they look watch space and radar and everything.
And they sent him back and said, you know, we'll send you
some material. And essentially they also talked about what are called toa's tracks of
interest. We get about eighteen hundred tracks of interests of which you know we've
had and we scramble like about seventy five jets to check out these things.
So he's like saying, you know, this proves that they're watching aliens,
and their chain saying aliens, well, not really. If you look up
the definition of the tracks of interest, which is something you know, you
can go to John Greenwald's site and find this. You can. Chris Rukowski
talked about all of this actually at our UFO Congress, and he's got all
of these files as well, and he showed some of them at the congress.
They are like an unknown airplane, so it's actually a drug trafficking terminology.
So if they see a plane that they think is often you know,
you don't know what it is, it's a track of interest. In fact,
I looked up one of these in John greenwald site and it was a
plane where it's transponder wasn't working, so they didn't know what it was.
They found out it was a plane's transponder not working, so that plane got
that transponder fixed. So not as exciting as everything he's saying. But what's
kind of cool is in the letter it says we can't give you details on
these toise because it's still classified. However, we can tell you that we
get eighteen hundred tois and seventy five scrambles, So that's interesting. But it's
hardly anything he's going to get in trouble for. It's not anything that hasn't
been out there. Before, so just the delivery was completely way over exaggerated.
So you're going to see these extreme over exaggerations online. But if you
want more of these details, I kind of outlined all of this at the
h and the Open Mind UFO news group, so you can see our conversation
about it there. And I saw alabambamamof I'm posted with Richard Hoffman as their
director, and we talked about it there as well. But just just to
be careful, you're going to people will run across it because it's going to
be all over the internet, and unfortunately the information isn't being vetted before it's
being posted out there. But Roger did a pretty good job actually accurately summarizing.
I got conf used because what Roger had stated was not necessarily what you
know, I felt Victor was saying, and so I was really confused.
But Roger was actually very accurate in his statement. So so there you go.
Yeah, and he'll run across it. The other story I wanted to
talk about real quick here Did you see this one? A ten thousand dollars
reward? Yeah? To decipher the Roswell UFO memo. Have you ever had
anyone on to talk about that memo. No I thought about having Rudiac on.
I think I tried to reach out to him before. Yeah, yeah,
because as far as I know, you know, he was the only
person that got as far with it as I mean, he got further with
it than anyone else did. And I looked at your article about that,
and I see the you know, them getting words out of I don't know
how, you know, I can't really see those words, any of them.
A couple of them, like V or something like that, you can
kind of figure out. But some of those words are really difficult, and
I don't know if there's any technology that can possibly crack that. Yeah,
that's a really good point. So here's the deal, and that's the issue
essentially. You know this memo. There's Roger Raimi, General Roger Rami and
Colonel Thomas du Boy are in this famous picture from Roswell and they are sitting
there with debris that looks like a weather balloon and Roger Rami is kneeling down
and he's got a memo in his hand. Now, these are pictures that
were released on July eighth, when the Army said because it was the Army
Air Force, Air Force was still part of the Army at this time.
The Army said, oh, no, that wasn't a spaceship that crashed in
Roswell. That was actually a weather balloon. And this is the day after
they said the opposite, They said, no, that was a space ship.
So, you know, Jesse Marcel Junior or I'm sorry senior, who
was the first intelligence officer to look at the debris, is also in some
of these pictures with the debris. He later said that, you know,
the debris, the weather balloon debris was not what I found in the desert,
but they told me to say it was so like a good soldier,
I did what I was told. And Colonel Dubois, who's actually also in
the picture, he went on to become a general also, I believe he
later has said that that weather balloon was not what was found in the desert,
that was put there by Roger Ramie, so that it wasn't what they
found. And later the Air Force in nineteen ninety four put out a report
about Roswell and they admitted that that weather balloon material was not what was found
in Roswell, but they said, we believe that Roger Raimie switched out the
debris because what was actually found in Roswell was debris from a Project Mogul balloon.
And this is a balloon with some sound equipment that was monitoring to listen
to Russian nuclear testing. Now that was a secret project at the time.
However, that would also be debris that would be easily identifiable. You would
think no one would mistake that for something strange. So that's kind of the
story. And however, in this photograph I was talking about with Ryth Raimi
and Dubois, David Rudiak took a look at this and zoomed in and he
felt that, you know, with the modern technology being able to scan the
slide and stuff like that, he would be he could tell some letters that
were in the memo, and he feels at least pretty confident about these two
phrases. One of the phrases in the memo, he says, says and
the victims of the wreck, and the other says in the disc they will
ship. He also says, you can see weather balloon. So that's important
because weather Balloon shows that the memo is referencing this Roswell thing. He says
the disc they will ship refers to a disc, so he feels that proves
a disc was found. And like I said, possibly more startling is he
feels the victim of the res corroborates some witness testimony that they were et bodies
found at the wreck. So that's about, you know, he's been able
to decipher what he feels the memo says. However, Kevin Randall in this
recent blog post that he was discussing with a friend of his that that's not
enough. You know, David Rudiak has done some great work, but he's
not you know, you need to take this to a lab or someone incredible
so that you know, the mainstream community can accept that what is said in
this memo. But that would cost a lot of money, and it's just
someone doesn't have that money. And so this person said, well, you
know what, let's put up I'll put up a ten thousand dollars reward,
so then that person could get reimbursed if they do go get this analyzed.
And so that that's what created this ten thousand dollars reward. So now if
you go to a lab, you take this photo, take it to a
lab, have the pay the lab to get this deciphered or some of their
photographic expert or expert in this arena and pay for that to get deciphered,
then you know, you could win ten thousand dollars. Some people have argued,
well, no one's going to completely agree on the what the information says,
and Randall says, well, we all agreed on the rogersreel slides what
the placard had said. Once that was deciphered, everybody, especially who listens
to our shows, knows what that debacle was all about. But when the
picture with the plat was shared with the public, it was quickly determined what
it said, and it was quickly accepted except for, as Randall says,
by the people who had a vested interest in that picture being an alien,
which no one felt it which most felt it was not. So And you
and I, for instance, agree what the placard says. So Kevin Randall
being who he is, a trustworthy person, and if he's the guy to
make that determination, then you know, I think I have faith in Kevin.
So yeah, it's kind of an interesting situation. I wonder what if
anyone will take him up. And I don't know what kind of lab you
would go to. Well, you know, the FBI or CIA definitely has
a lab that would crack something like that, but I don't know how you
would get access to them. I don't know how many other places would because
it would have to be someone doing serious investigations for like national security, that
would have the top of the line tech tech for that time of work.
I believe there are places that do testing. I think you and I talked
about that before that will certain type of tests and are very expensive. Ten
thousand dollars may not even near cover it. It's very possible, you know.
I always think about how what a blunder that was for him to have
the memo in his hand that actually would spell that out. I mean,
they never probably would have thought that technology would come along that could crack something
like that. Yeah, and I don't know. Maybe technology in the future
will even you know, get better to where maybe we don't have at least
easily available or readily available the technology to do this right now, but mainly
in the future we will. You would think someone be able to decipher it.
And you know, interesting enough, in that report that I talked about
where they admitted that the weather balloon wasn't real, they said that they the
video, the photo analyzed, and their lab could not decipher what was in
the memo. So it's interesting that the Air Force said they did that,
and it is a bit hard to believe that they couldn't decipher anything. But
I don't know, you can take a look. I'm not good at deciphering
this type of stuff. So I'm kind of like you. I kind of
feel like I can't see victims of the wreck and Fort Worth, Texas,
but only kind of. I don't. I can't say for sure. Yeah,
I'm sure there's some type of probability program that will take you know that
in these labs, because if you can't really spell it accurately, I mean,
you can't really see these things accurately, but it would probably do a
percentage and a probability of a word. That's probably what it'll boil down to.
Hopefully it's not a memo about his lunch. You know, I would
like, you know, and then he talks about the weather buildin because I'm
stuck at this stupid weather but press conference. But after that, I would
like a you know, coffee on a saucer. Yeah, victims of the
lunch, Yeah, exactly, that's what it says, Yeah, so good,
we'll find out interesting. All right, Well, I guess we will
conclude. Of course, there's more news at Openminds dot tv, where we
post UFO news daily. But did you have anything else, any big announcement?
Yes, I do. Oh wow this week. Wow. I had
a special guest on my show last week and it's still up on my website.
And I would love for the listeners who kind of liked this guy I'm
talking with today. Alejandro was on my show last week and I thought we
had a really good time. I've gotten a lot of positive feedback, a
lot of email from that, and so go over to podcastufo dot com and
you'll see the show right there with Alejandro and I. It was a lot
of fun. Cool. Did you get some negative feedback? Not one single
one, which is very unusual. That is unusual. That freaks me out
a little bit. I know, it is kind of scary. Yeah,
something's going to happen. Well, that's cool. That's really good to hear.
Yeah, I know. So I'm going to be headed to Roswell in
a couple of days for the Roswell event out there, and I'm going to
be speaking for actually I usually speak for the UFO Museum, but I'm actually
going to be down the street speaking for the Roswell Daily Record, the newspaper
that had that you know, iconic front page about the flying Saucer that you
see back in nineteen forty seven. So I'm gonna be speaking for the Roswell
Daily Record. This is the first time they're putting something together and it's kind
of fun. I'll be there with Colonel Charles Halt, Colonel John Alexander Lee
Spiegel, Nick Pope, so some really cool people that I'll be speaking with.
Than Keith Aram who did the Phoenix Incident movie, will be with us
there, So it's going to be a lot of fun. Well, yes,
I hope you say hi to those folks for me. And I had
a email exchange with Chuck Halt the other day and he has a new book
coming out in about ninety days or so. Oh yeah, it's kind of
his side of the story in this battle between yeah, the convoluted Battle of
Rendall schimp Forrest. Yeah, exactly so. And you know what, Colonel
Charles Halt is a colonel and everything he witnessed was witnessed by multiple witnesses,
so He's in a very strong position, and I think it's silly to second
guess the importance of his testimony and how his testimony and the others with multiple
witnesses is much stronger and more credible testimony than despite what you think of it.
And I don't want to taint anybody's thoughts or any thing, but at
least not today of Peter Peter Robbins's friend Larry Warren, who was the first
to come out with the information, but his his what he had seen is
pretty much uncorroborated, so it's it's a story worth telling. But yeah,
well that's where you and I met in North Carolina, I think three years
ago. Yeah, and we both saw Chuck go up there. He likes
to be called Chuck in person. But Charles Holt, you know, talked
about the incident, and I'm telling you, I had goosebumps. I mean
that he if anyone is believable, that man is believable. Well what's kind
of cool too, and I love doing this is that they a lot of
these guys don't have similar perspectives, not the exact same perspectives. Colonel Alexander,
Charles Hall, Nick Pope, they don't all agree. Although they all
worked in the government, they all had UFO related sort of things that they
were involved with. Colonel Hall not necessarily, although being an insider, he
looked into UFOs independently, but with some other colleagues that we're in intelligence,
so they all have some special insight. But they don't all agree, and
so I'm definitely going to have fun pointing out those differences and not to get
them to argue with each other, because that's what's great about these guys.
They're all highly professional, but to try to kind of get to the truth
of the matter and that, you know, what are the different perspectives that
they each have, What do they agree on, what do they not agree
on? Because you know, the truth is somewhere in there. So it's
going to be a lot of fun. I highly respect all of these people
and I'm just really happy to be a part of it. And it's going
to be really cool. Great, we'll have a great time. What are
you going to do? Oh July fourth, Yeah, I'm actually Oh you
are I'm away from home. Yeah, I'm away from home and in the
fine arts and antiques world doing a big auction coming up on the eighth.
So I am planted down in Massachusetts at a beautiful home. I think I
showed you a picture of Paul Revere silver. Oh yeah, yeah. Anyway,
okay, awesome, we'll have fun. And July second, I think
it's World UFO Day. Okay, that's right. Yeah, So keep an
eye on your social media because last year we did a discount for the UFO
Congress if you we put out a code for July or for World UFO Day.
So I'm trying to arrange the same thing this year. So keep an
eye on the social media and I'll send information out about that there. So
keep an eye at Open Minds Production on Facebook and our Open Minds TV on
Twitter. Keep your eyes to the sky, keep your ass to the sky
like that. I like that. All right, Thank you so much Martin
for joining us once again, and you have a lovely July fourth weekend.
We won't have a show next week because of the holiday, so I apologize,
but we'll be back in a couple of weeks. Have a great one
you too. Let's go ahead and talk to Greg. I am very happy
to welcome Greg Bishop to the show. Hello, how are you hey?
How are you doing good? I'm doing great and super excited to have you
on. And you know what, You're another person who I could swear I
do this often. I could swear that we had done another show, but
when I looked in my archives and stuff, I guess we haven't. Well,
you get to the point where you talk to so many people, I
mean, you don't even remember. People say they've been on my show,
and I go, what really, And I have to go back and look
for the you know, because I've been I've been interviewing people in various formats
since ninety seven, I think, wow. Yeah, And first I was
on a pirate radio station and then internet radio, and it's been that since
two thousand. October of two thousand, I started my internet podcast type show,
and then podcasting actually started being podcasting in two thousand and six or seven,
so it's been that since then. Yeah. Wow, see, I
thought I had you on to talk about because we have our shared interest in
Although it might have been your book, it's one of the first real books
that I read on it, but the whole Richard Dodie situation with Bill Moore
and everything, and and yeah, your book Project Beta is one of the
few you know, thorough books on that whole situation. So when I was
researching, I relied upon it a lot, you know, and always reference
the book when I when I talk about it. But we'll touch on it,
well, I think later. But at some point it would be fun
and i'd be great to where we'll do a show where we'll talk specifically about
just Dody and more and go over that thoroughly in the future. Yeah,
I don't usually say anything that makes anybody happy, but then I'm I'm ever
so slightly biased because Bill's still a friend of mine. So yeah, so
I'll probably beat you up a little bit about that. You should so,
but still you've definitely got some unique insights because of that, And well,
I guess to start off, you know, they're a big reason that I'm
having you on is because I want to help you promote your book. It
defies language, and in this book you have a lot of different essays on
the that you've written over the years which touch on many many topics. And
Bill Moore and Richard Dody is one of many of the topics you here.
But yeah, just lightly, I guess we could talk about it now.
And Bill Moore, for people who don't know was one of the guys who
brought Roswell to made Roswell famous, right, I mean he wrote the first
book, which leaned heavily on Stanton Friedman's research as well. Yes, but
Stanton wasn't credited for the book. I know Stanton has told me why,
But do you remember why that is? No? I can't remember why.
Maybe it had something to do with the publishing contract or something they wanted to
They mainly wanted Charles Berlitz's name on there because he made a big hit with
the Bermuda Triangle book and I guess a few other mystery books, and so
they basically paired more with him, and then more actually went to Roswell in
seventy eight. I think he was the first person to I believe, the
first person to go there and actually talk to people. I don't know if
stan had done that. He had talked to Jesse Marcel and done some background
research. I'm not sure if he actually traveled there and interviewed people. Bill
did. He gave me a few of his interview tapes from nineteen seventy eight.
I still have them. Wow, So I've actually got people talking about
these things for the first time since, you know, since nineteen forty seven.
There's just two of them. Yeah, I would like to get them.
I'm trying to figure out how to play them back without getting them destroyed
and digitize them and then just make them available for everybody. I mean,
I'm not going to sell them or anything. They're research materials, so they'd
be interesting. And I've heard arguments where people are saying, yeah, you
know, it was what's the teletype operator at the radio station Lydia Sleppie.
I think the one that was told that was broadcasting or sending a news report
out and then she got a call saying to stop it. And there's a
lot of debate over what she was told, when she was told it,
what exactly she was told. I've got a tape of an interview with her
from nineteen seventy eight. It's like, maybe i'd better digitize that. Yeah,
well, let's talk a little bit about Roswell. What it's the fifty
ninth anniversary this year, not this weekend, but well, when the show
comes out Monday, it will be this weekend. I'll be heading to Roswell
for like the twelfth year in the row to go and talk about UFOs and
stuff. I don't know if it's the twelfth, but it's a lot and
for the Roswell Daily Record. But you know, I guess from that perspective
early on, I guess there's this perception. I think there's a lot of
misperceptions about how Roswell really got to be big and famous and really Bill Morri's
book was a big deal, but it was more than just an interview with
Jesse Marcel, right, they interviewed many people. Yeah, they interviewed God,
I can't remember who else. I think at least mac Rassel or one
of the Brasels, their neighbors, the proctors Lydia Slepie. Of course I
can't remember everybody interviewed in that book. And then, of course, you
know, the second, the Schmid and Randall book went out and interviewed more
people. But Moore's book was the first more and Burlit's book was the first
in nineteen seventy eight or nine called the Roswell Incident, which is, you
know, if that book hadn't come out, I sort of doubt there'd be
a Roswell Festival right now, right because it might have been ignored up to
now. Maybe not, but it certainly put it on the map as a
as an event to be studied, looked at, and for better or worse,
turned into what it has now kind of as a touchdowe if nobody,
if you've never heard of UFOs ever, don't care about them. You know
what roz Well is. So that's uh, you know, I think that's
the it's basically said in the same breath with any any other famous paranormal anything
is. So it's kind of weird that nobody he said more as such a
persona and on grata, that nobody really even mentioned as his name, or
the fact that if he hadn't written that book, they wouldn't be having that
festival there probably, yeah, which is funny, and we'll get into that.
And that's one of the things I guess that fascinated me about the whole
Richard Doley Billmore situation is that I feel and we'll see if you feel similar,
is that the whole situation got swept under the rug. It's not like
anybody forgave Bill Moore for uh. And we'll get into this that people who
have listened to the show quite a bit know that Bill Moore it turned out
was, you know, working with Richard Doty who was an Air Force worked
for Air Force Special Investigations and they were hoaxing information and other things. And
will get your perspective on that. But that's what your book is about Project
Beta. But he hasn't been forgiven. But it's not like people don't you
know, a lot of the big researchers don't necessarily take it upon themselves to
spend a lot of efforts. Some do, but most don't to disparage him.
But they just just don't talk about him or that situation at all.
No, they don't because they've got, you know, a lot of good
information was uncovered for the first time by Freedman and more to put together that
book. But you know, they're so angry at him as what they see
as turncoat behavior that they don't want to acknowledge it, which is it's a
very it's a very strange situation. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up.
And I guess from your perspective looking at and knowing that you're a discerning,
you know, researcher, you're not someone who just is like many who
if it's labeled UFOs and somebody writes about it, then it must be true.
You know, you're you're more careful with how you look at things,
having access to some of Bill Moore's interviews from that time period that others don't.
I mean, what do you What are your perceptions of the Riswell case
at this point, since I haven't thought about it in so many years.
The perception of it is well, because the thing is, it's to me,
it's like the Kennedy assassination, at least as it stands right now.
There's there's a lot of evidence in a lot of directions, and you can
place whatever your belief system is on that evidence and find plenty of evidence to
back it up. And I'm kind of undecided about it. I'm kind of
doubt that it was something from outer space that crashed with aliens in it.
I kind of doubt it. I haven't made a hard and fast decision on
it. But the thing is that I think there's until somebody says something about
it, somebody who knew what was going on actually says something, and it's
corroborated by other people and backed up by some kind of documentation which might be
really hard to find that might have been destroyed. It's going to be really
hard to tell whether it was what people, you know, what a lot
of proponents think it was, which was, you know, some sort of
extraterrestrials crashing here in some sort of structured craft. Well, I'm sure,
and I don't think i'll ever be sure, and I don't really mind.
Yeah, which is funny because that perspective is what upsets people. And I
understand that because I was just talking with someone the other day about this,
because he was asking me my perspective on things and he was shocked to hear
I don't believe everything. But like I said, first of all, my
beliefs are secondary and I'm pretty much agnostic about everything, and that I don't
know for sure. It's possible, but I don't know, And like you,
I'm okay with that. Yeah, I'm totally okay with it. I
mean, that's a if you want to talk about a true skeptical viewpoint,
I think a true skeptical view still there. Yeah, Yeah, I think
a true skeptical viewpoint is I am going to only make a decision on something
when I have so much overwhelming evidence that it's impossible for me to remain agnostic
and for UFOs that I don't think that's happened with almost anything. The only
thing I'm not totally agnostic about is the fact that people see things that are
unexplainable. I'm pretty sure that happens. I'm pretty sure that's happened a lot.
I don't know what the explanation is for it. There's probably hundreds of
explanations for different things that happen to people and things they've seen, whether they
range from extraterrestrials to you know, underground civilizations to you know, creations of
your own mind based on what you saw all these things. But you know
you have to you know, with this field and almost any of these things,
anything that's not really people haven't made a decision on yet as a collectively,
you can't really come down on one side or the other because then you
have to start defending a position, and especially with UFOs, there's when once
you start defending a position, there are hordes of people that have come out
and point out all the parts of your argument that are wrong, and and
they'll be pretty much correct, right, So you have to keep it,
you know. That's all open minds is called open minds. I think you
just you you keep your options open until like I said, there's just so
much evidence that you can't really you can't really hold a you know, agnostic
position anymore, where you have to say I think this is I think this
is what happened, and I'm pretty sure that I'm going to keep it this
way and then be able to change your opinion if more information comes up.
That's the other thing. You have to be open to new information even if
it doesn't agree with your biases, and see how it holds up. And
that's that's a little bit of work. Yeah. You know, someone mentioned
in a forum, actually there's a there's an argument, and I try not
to get involved with these, but I did in this case. Yeah,
it always is. And in this case someone was saying, you know,
because because researcher Chris Rutowski, who you know, was saying something similar and
one of the guys kind of jumped on him and it was like, hey,
well you don't believe this. You don't believe in you know, psychic
phenomena and alien abduction and alien people talking to aliens and all of this,
and asking him all these questions like that, and Chris is like, well,
you saw my statement. You know, I don't want to get involved,
but I drew him in any way because actually, in Chris's defense that
actually Chris is just saying that he, uh, those positions he takes are
because there is no proof of those things that that you're mentioning. So it's
totally legitimate for Chris to have this perspective. And you're the one who has
to, you know, argue your point. Really the burden's on you,
not Chris. And then this person's like, oh, I feel like I'm
getting beaten up, and not at all. It's just open discussion. But
you're the one who has to kind of you know, you guys be eaten
up. You have to. You have to. You have to defend your
position. If you don't defend your position and just expect people to believe you,
that's what children do, right, so right, you have to.
And if you can't defend the position, you take the position that Chris or
I or you or many other people do, which is I'm not sure yet
and I'm reserving judgment. I think Chris is more like there's no proof therefore
it you know, I'm not gonna put any stock in it yet. Mine's
a little different. Mine is there's not enough proof yet, but I'm still
highly interested. Like I think remote viewing is, it's is something that really
actually works because I've experienced it, which is you know, that's a that's
a uh, that's personal experience. But something like you know, our ghosts,
dead people that are coming back to haunt us, I'm not so sure.
I'm pretty sure there's things called ghosts that people see, but I'm not
exactly sure what causes them, where they come from, and how we perceive
them, which is a huge part of it. Perception, I think,
is something that people don't really pay attention to and how we perceive things.
That's kind of what I'm crusading on right now, as you know, mm
hmm, yeah exactly. So that is, and you know what, your
perspective will be very welcome on this podcast. Of course, I'm open and
welcoming to people with all different perspectives. I certainly don't mind people. I
respect everyone having an opinion, even those people who want to believe in everything.
That's you're right, fine, but we all, you know, respect
that everybody else can be skeptical. But there was another person in there who
said, kind of getting back to what you had mentioned, he said,
that this topic is like a religion everybody had, or politics, everybody has
a said opinion, and when we come into these type of debates, nobody
changes their mind and their opinion. It's set and at least kind of what
you described. I don't feel that way whatsoever. I change my mind on
a regular basis. I mean if someone provides some good evidence or proof or
even a credible anecdotal kind of story, that often influences my opinion. So
being agnostic, my beliefs and opinions are wavering all over the place. Yeah
all the time. Yeah, I think you're like me that there's you have
a spectrum of belief or opinion or agreement or whatever you want to call it.
And like, I will say that what that. I still think that
there's a high probability that Rex Heflin photographs something that was anomalousts in Santa Anna,
and you know, the pictures that look like a straw hat or whatever.
I'm pretty sure he photographs something that's anomalous. I'm open to people that
say it wasn't. I've looked at the studies they do one hundred percent convinced
me. But then again, you know, so it's still undecided to me,
undecided and unexplained. However, what the when somebody sees something and it
looks like it looks like a floating lantern, it's probably a floating lantern.
I've been out on one of those called skywatches with people. People get very
excited when they see lights and I say, that's an airplane, and they
get upset with me. How do you know, I said, because I'm
a pilot. There's a red light, a green light, and a white,
blinking white light. That's an airplane. And they're all in the right
place. The green lights on the right side, and they'll red lights on
the left side. Yeah, but people get upset because of that. But
you know, I assume fairly heavily that that's a normal that's a normal plant.
If something comes flying over, you know, way faster than a normal
than any than physically possible. A light comes shooting over and makes weird right
angle turns and back and all that, that's not an airplane. I haven't
seen that yet. I'd like to. But the other thing is if I
did see that, what does that prove to me? It proves to me
that there's strange things in the sky that we can't identify. It doesn't prove
to me there's aliens coming from other planets visiting us in structured ships. It
just means something strange we can't explain yet it's happening, and we have to
look for an explanation. Yep, exactly, I mean. And that's what
gets difficult in this field, I think sometimes, and I get really uncomfortable
even at our own events, because then it becomes kind of almost more like
a religious event, where if you're not saying you're seeing a UFO, it's
sacrilegious, and it is kind of this group think that almost pressures people who
are there into believing or saying, oh, yeah, that was a UFO.
Yeah. Well, they want to belong to a group. Every course.
Everybody wants to belong to group and be accepted. I do too.
I like that, but I'm not going to be accepted in a group just
by putting away my critical thinking. In fact, in the last few years,
I've stopped really care exactly what people think. If you don't agree with
them, or if I say something that upsets them, I don't really care
anymore. But I'm not mean about it. I don't tell somebody I'm smarter
than them because I think I figured something out or that you know, they're
just they're not open minded enough because they can't consider what I mean. I
don't care about that stuff. What I care about is learning more constantly,
and if there's people around that can help me learn more and are fairly agnostic,
and really importantly they're not emotionally attached to their opinions, that's wonderful.
It's hard not to be emotionally attached to your opinions, but especially with the
UFOs, you can't be, or like I said before, you'll get locked
into a defensive position and you just get more and more entrenched more or people
come up to you and say, well, how can you believe this?
And what about this? And have you considered this? And that? If
you're emotionally attached to that, you're not gonna listen anymore. You just start
filtering out anything that doesn't agree with you, and that's no way to learn
anything now. And the reason that I went off on this tangent and the
reason we got here, which is great because I love this discussion and I
think a lot of the listeners will as well, But the reason I witnessed
the direction, because it's interesting that even with the insight that you have,
you're still agnostic about Roswell, which I understand because I find it hard not
to be myself. But Bill Moore, maybe you can explain in your terms,
how did it come to be then that he became this persona non grata
and kind of this and disappeared, I mean, how he reacted to that.
He didn't disappear right away. Just nobody was saying anything helpful. Everybody
was mad at him. Nobody was joining him to try and help and figure
out. So he just said, finally, just said, I forget it.
That's part of my life. That's over now. Sometime in the early
to mid nineteen nineties, mid Well, I think he completely got off of
it. In the late nineteen nineties, How would you frame I guess concisely
what happened, like what he did and and why people were upset with him?
Okay, yeah, I was going to get to that. Bill Moore
was a UFO researcher. He wrote first he wrote also with Charles Burlet's The
Philadelphia Experiment Book and then the Roswell Book. He became a fairly important,
well known UFO researcher. He was speaking at conventions all the time, and
because of an agreement he made in the late seventies, probably seventeen, I
think seventy nine, yeah, late nineteen seventy nine, he was being given
supposedly secret documents on UFOs by somebody in the government or a group of people.
The thing is, and this is when he was writing the Roswell book.
I mean, when the Roswell Book was released, he was contacted and
said, would you like to help us out? And if you help us
out, we will give you some UFO documents that nobody else has seen.
He said, all right, you know who wouldn't take that deal? A
lot of UFO people would jump at it, and of course he did.
As it turned out. His part of the deal, though, was that
he had to since there was no Internet at the time and no way to
really know exactly what people were talking about, he was supposed to provide answers
when they were saying. When somebody in the government would say, well,
what are people saying about this military base or anything about this, or did
somebody see this light what's going around in the UFO community, because it might
have been something they were testing and they wanted to know what people had seen
because they wanted to guard against you know, unauthorized people seeing things that they
weren't supposed to see or knowing things they weren't supposed to know. So he
was there in into the UFO community, and of course he couldn't say anything
to anybody because then they'd clam up. Of course, you know I would
too, So he didn't say anything, and he continued to report on people's
activities, what they were doing. He passed messages back and forth between different
spy agencies, like he got letters from Russia and there were basically I believe
there were letters from Russia, but there were letters from people that were Russian,
that were Americans who were in Russia as spies, but they were sending
things to the United States to, you know, to a UFO researcher,
like, you know, I'm a Russian UFO researcher. Would you like to
communicate this is what I know? And there were code embedded in those letters
from post cards, and he'd have to call this number and just read the
letter. Everything in the letter, all the if anything was spelled Funny'd have
to spell it all the punctuation and everything, because there was code in those
letters telling people what the people in Russia were reporting back on. So he
basically did spy work in exchange for getting UFO information and documents, and he
got lots of them. But then, this is according to more, were
you able to verify that he was telling the truth, that this really happened.
The only other person that was going on that this was happening to was
his research partner, Jamie Schanderay, who I did talk to extensively for a
long time. He's somebody that nobody ever talked to. Really, He's never
really been interviewed that much. And he dropped out of the field too,
right after he was on Coast to Coast strangely enough, in nineteen ninety nine.
But what I say in defense of morning, they say, well,
how do you know he's telling the truth? Two reasons. One, we're
pretty good friends and he's always been straight with me. And two everything he's
told me has later turned out to be true. Well, everything that I've
been able to, you know, verify later I found out either through other
people, through documents, through through things I saw on the internet, through
any various amounts of various types of information that I gathered. Nothing he's told
me I've been able to find out was a lie. So and on the
top of that, like I said, we've been fairly good friends since nineteen
eighty eight or eighty seven, I think, and I trust him in the
way you trust your friends, and that you know, that's a unique situation.
And I, you know, I can't tell everybody, well, he's
my friends will usually trust him. I'm saying, he's my friend. So
this is why I trust him, right, And this is you know,
and he's like I said, he's never steered me wrong. And if he
can't tell me something, or if he couldn't, we don't really talk about
this stuff anymore. He would say, I can't really talk about it.
I may be able to tell you someday, but right now I can't talk
about it. And some of the things he told me later and other things
he didn't, which is fine. But he told me as much as he
could, and in fact, he knew that when he told me something,
there was a good chance I was going to use the information in some way.
So and that's part of the reason why he told me. And the
other part was, you know, we're just friends, and he you know,
he wanted to share things with me. So yeah, because the hard
part is, as much as I've tried, you were using terms like they
and them they wanted him to do this or they needed him to do that.
I haven't been able to verify there have been a they or them beyond
Richard Doty. But do you Falcon, the guy that he said was running
this whole operation. Well, but Falcon's existence is not confirmed. I mean
the only person that you know, uh, the only people that say they've
met him or talked to him are Bill Moore and Richard Doty. That's true
and so and these are at least I feel Bill Moore hasn't always been trustworthy,
and certainly Richard Doty has not. I will agree with you, Yeah,
because you write that you write about that definitely a lot in your book.
Yeah, Bill wasn't one hundred percent happy with Project Beta. M H.
I had him read the manuscript just you know, because he said I
wanted to make sure I didn't make any mistakes. Yeah, according to him
and anybody you know, I had him read it and then a couple other
I had a couple of UFO researcher friends read it too, just to make
sure that there doesn't anything wildly wrong with what I'd written and what Bill said
he got finished, I said, what do you think? And he said,
I don't agree with everything in there, and I'm not totally happy about
it. But I said what I needed to say, and you found out
things that I didn't even know, which not all of which make me happy.
I said, well, he goes, I'm not going to tell you
to change anything, but that's how I feel about it. So I say
that sometimes I'll let people know I didn't write the book at his behest so
that he could he can have a story told. He was just a source
in the book. And like I said, he didn't agree with everything in
there, and he wasn't happy about everything in there, but he didn't have
arguments against them. I think he was just uncomfortable about that certain things he
said, maybe he thought he shouldn't have or revealed things he shouldn't have,
or other people corroborated things that he didn't know about that made him said.
I didn't ask him exactly what he was upset about, but he said it
was the You know, he was satisfied with the way where the book was,
but not totally happy with how it. Yeah, other people it's like,
well, good, then I feel like I've done a fair job.
So you're convinced than that was not working alone though, that there was essentially
a disinformation project that Dody was kind of point on. Well, the thing
is that Kurtland Air Force Base, where all this took place, is a
home to many different projects. The Air Force basically, you know, it
runs everything there because it's an Air Force base, but there's other groups there
doing things. The NSA has a presence there that I think the maybe the
National Reconnaissance Office, maybe the CIA, I'm not exactly sure about all these
groups. There's many different groups though, working on secret projects, and they
were you know, just as many back in nineteen seventy eight, seventy nine,
eighty you know, the period of the book, which is about nineteen
seventy eight to about eighty six seven, something like that. These groups were
all there. They all had interest in things that were going on at the
base. They all had secret projects they had to keep, you know,
they had to keep under wraps and make sure that people weren't watching them and
you know, stealing the information and sending to Russia or China or whatever,
and so Dotie was just the one everybody hears about. So they they they
say, well, Dotie is the bad guy in this, and he did
everything. He didn't really he did a lot of stuff. But you know,
the NSA was there. In fact, they were. They were set
up apparently across from Paul Benowitz's house and sending him signals so that he wouldn't
take he wouldn't be getting the signals they were sending around working on some coded
information. I believe I talked to a guy in the NSSA that told me
about this, So you have verified that. So you've talked to an NSSA
for someone in the NSA, then this would be a third party who told
you that they were sending Benowitz signals. Uh. He did not tell me
that, but he did say that there were there were projects on the base
that the NSA was running. That's all he could tell me. Okay,
So but the thing is, I I know that Benowitz got had was receiving,
say knows because other people that I talked to, other UFO researchers went
to his house and saw his setup and talked to him about it and actually
saw these strange images on a screen that Benowitz described. Bill Moore told me
about it, and the only thing I can think is either one aliens are
sending him these these images, or two, far far far more likely somebody
would wherewithal in nineteen eighty to do this is sending him the images to mess
with him. And it just so people know, Benowitz was kind of people
who aren't aware, no problem. He was the guy that essentially was a
target. So Dodie was having more. You know, give Benowitz's material one
thing, as far as I can determine, the Aquarious document, and he
actually is, as far as I can tell from talking to More. He
said, that's the only thing I ever gave him, and they forced me
to give it to him. They said, give this to Paul because we
want him to see it. It was something called, I think called the
Aquarius Document actually mentioned twelve for the first time ever, right or mostly fake
document. Mori said he took him in a in a a closet at his
work and turned up a radio really loud because he knew people there might be
bugs in there, and talked in his ear and he said, I was
told to give this to you. Take it with a grain of salt,
and apparently he did because he never mentioned it anybody and he locked it away
in a safe I mean, I'm sure it affected his thinking, but apparently
that was the only piece of dis info that More actually passed Paul Benewitz that
you know, they were friends, it's just that he couldn't tell him.
He was working with you know, with with with intelligence people to find out
what was going on with them. So it's a very very complicated story with
a lot more players, and people think they only concentrate on the main ones
More More in doty well, but there are many others. Yeah, well,
let's do it. We'll do a show where we talk more about this,
because I haven't found evidence that there are except for because everything we know
comes from Dody and More. But I'd like your perspective. But let's move
ahead so we can get into other topics, and so just kind of to
talk about More's downfall, so he finally comes clean and maybe you could verify
whether you believe this to be true or not. Also, just because Hastings
kind of Robert Hastings, another researcher who we had on fairly recently, kind
of caught wind of all of this and was trying to expose Bill Moore,
And so Bill Moore kind of fell on his sword and went out and told
everybody about it at a mof On symposium. I don't think it was only
Hastings, but I might be wrong. Uh huh. I respect Hastings and
has worked with the UFOs and nukes thing. But I had an online argument
with him once and he said, I know that Falcon we talked about earlier
was Richard Doty And I said, how do you know that? He said,
because he told Linda how I said, you mean you don't believe anything
he says until he tells Linda How something that makes no sense whatsoever. Well,
and an argument against that too is that he doesn't necessarily feel that Linda
how I know is a credible resource, so he's citing currently he thinks Linda
how and Richard Dody a credible resources when it agrees with this idea that about
Dody being what they called Falcon. All these different names were made up by
More and Chanderrat to refer to these people in the government that they were dealing
with, and Falcon was the guy that was the head of all of it
and was telling all the different agencies what to do. They were trying to
trap Russian spies. That's basically what's the Benewitz thing. And this whole episode
was a tiny, tiny, little part of a huge operation. When UFO
people look at it, they think it's just something to drive UFO people crazy,
make them look bad, and all that had nothing to do with that
whatsoever. It just had to do with national security. And the way it
turned out for ben and Wits was unfortunate because he was unstable to begin with,
and all this stuff just made him more unstable, and he ended up
at a mental institution for a few months. His family put him there,
and it's unfortunate and horrible, and but the thing is that at the time
they didn't care what was happening to him as long as the secrets were kept
and they kept a lid on all the black projects that were going on around
Currentland at the time. And it kind of seems like, if this is
all the way it went, and this is true, then you know,
given the story you've given just now. Bill Moore then goes to this symposium
he talks about what he did. People get pissed, they don't want to
work with him. Anymore, there's people yelling and screaming, I guess,
and leaving. And in the end he didn't even It doesn't seem that he
got anything of substance at all. He never really got any seat greats,
not really. I think he got a few. Well, you know what
I will say in Hastings defense, I think he was bothering more and just
basically was another one, another needle in a side, just saying, you
know, you better do something because all the what More told me, I
believe was the rumors are going crazy. It was getting worse and worse,
and I needed to say something. So I decided to tell them everything that
I could at the time, and I said, what would you do it?
The same way again, he goes, I wouldn't be so arrogant,
That's the only thing he said. But yeah, everybody, I was at
that MOFON convention in nineteen eighty and in Las Vegas. I was standing in
the room when it happened, and it was the best speech I ever saw
anywhere on anything because of the reaction. You know, I've never seen people
react like that to anything, not a political speech, nothing, So it
was a very highly charged atmosphere. I mean, you can see I don't
know if it's online because I think Muffon owns it, but I actually somebody
sent me a videotape, a copy of the video of his slash. You
can hear all the yelling sort of in the background, and the State Section
director has to stop the had to stop it about three or four times to
tell everybody to calm down. And then after it was over, more of
wrote a whole bunch of He wrote a whole bunch of questions and answered them
because he didn't want to take questions from the audience because he turned into more
pandemonium and he knew that. But yeah, after that, he said,
anybody that still wants to help me, please contact me, And all people
did was get really mad at him, with some justification. But the thing
is that I think that in a lot of especially in a weird field like
euthology, if you let the emotion, your emotions get the better of you,
you're missing a whole lot of stuff. Right. You could still agree
with more and still talk to him, but people would not. Instead of
instead of talking to him, they would just write him or calling up with
accusations instead of why did you do this? Can you explain to me?
He said, all he got was people yelling at him incoherently, so he
said, Okay, forget it. Yeah, I don't think I wouldn't have
gotten that as an upset. Why I never get that upset. But I
mean with him, even I would have just been like, I would have
thought it was interesting and fun because it's something to write about and interview people
about. But I also would have felt like, well, his credibility with
me would be damaged. But at the same time, and the reason that,
just because you just mentioned if people get too emotional about stuff and they
miss it, a lot of people just wanted to then just forget the whole
episode. And the reason it's important not to forget that episode is what you
mentioned earlier, is that MJ twelve was mentioned for the first time in that
Project Aquarius document that Dody gave more and this whole legend that even Stanton Friedman
and many others subscribe to. Maybe you do, I don't know, but
this whole idea of MJ twelve stems from this incident. Yeah, I think
so it was. I asked Bill about this many years later. Recently,
actually, in the last couple of years. I said, what do you
think MJ twelve was And he said, I don't think it has anything to
do with UFOs whatsoever at all. I just think it was a convenient thing
that was extremely secret that it was easy to hang a whole bunch of stuff
on because it was a defense it was a defense connected group, it was
a small group, and it was a group that wasn't too much on the
record, so it's really hard to trace exactly what it was, so they
could hang all kinds of identities on it. And that's what they did with
the with the what's with the Eisenhower briefing document? With the what's the mcudler
twining membo, all these things that sort of point vaguely to something that nobody
can get too much information on. So they were able to hang a whole
bunch of disinformation on this little piece of information that's that's obscure and this,
like I said, I don't I have you know, the greatest confidence that
there was none of it was done to mess with UFO investigators and make them
look bad. And all it was was let's cover up as much as possible
all the things that we don't want foreign governments to see and that we don't
want UFO investigators to inadvertently start handing to people when they just think it's UFO
information, that that's what they were in control, not not. You know,
you know a lot of UFO researchers think that the government's really interested in
them because of the UFO secret. They're not. You know what, I
think they're just as confused about UFOs as probably more than UFO researchers. And
then you know, in fact, they probably looked to them for some answers
like what the hell is going on here? But if it starts in a
national security they got very concerned and start steering people away from it. Or
conversely, another thing you do with this kind of information is see who's interested
in it and check up on their background. You know. It basically it's
flight paper for spies, you know. M hm. Well, and like
you said earlier, I mean, for instance, when when Benowitz was receiving
signals, he lived right across the street from the base, and he had
a lab right by the base, and when he was receiving signals, if
he thought they were alien, which he did, he might have inadvertently shared
that information when it was stuff that the base was working on that they didn't
want Russians or others to find out. Yeah, that's what they were worried
about it. He was starting to try and decode it, which really worried
them. And I'm not exactly sure what the coded transmissions were. I guess
there were some way to you know, I think had to do with microbursts,
where you like send a whole bunch of information very quickly and a very
short amount of time that just sounds like gibberish until you have the right equipment
to sort of slow it down and decrypt it. And Benow's was figuring that
out, and they're like, jeez, we've poured billions of dollars into this
and this guy's figuring it out. So let's find out how he's figuring it
out and who he's talking to, and see if we can prevent this in
the future by kind of keeping an eye on him. So, you know,
his problem was he was just too curious. And his second problem,
which was bigger, was that he drew very outlandish conclusions from little bits of
data that that didn't mean when he thought it did. And that's unfortunate.
I mean, nothing pathing it was brilliant, brilliant electronics engineer, but combined
with his belief that there was some aliens around and that apparently they were invading
the world or at least the United States, that that that it kind of
it set the stage for him to eventually just have a breakdown. And then
in defense of the people who believe that this was UFO related and doubt your
your how you try to explain it was more to do with the Russians and
other things. Dodie goes on past this even to recent years to talk about
these wild UFO and alien claims that he has which are absolutely ridiculous, well,
including cirpo. Yeah, and to explain what CIRPO is. This happened
in the nineteen no, the early two thousands, something like that or mid
I can't remember what year it was, Yeah, not that long ago,
seven eightthing. Yeah, Yeah, there was a rumor that there was a
an exchange program between some alien civilization and the United States government, and they
sent some astronauts to their planet and some of the aliens came here, and
then after a whild aliens went back, and some of the astronauts came back.
Some of them died and a couple of them stayed or whatever. That
was the story. Absolutely zero way to verify that whatsoever, but that it
was making this stories were making the rounds basically on this guy named Victor Martinez's
email list. I was on the list. I was yeah, I was
kind of going, what the hell's going on here? And then after it
got to a fever pitch, a few of the players and interested people went
on coast to coast with Noriri and talked about it, and one of them
was Richard Dodi. And when I heard that, I was like, oh
my god. I mean, and him and a couple other people were people
that were around and doing these sort of things when Benowitz was being messed with,
I said, how can you in your right mind think that this has
anything to do with any kind of actual reality when these one the same people
are involved too. It's completely outlandish, and three it has it has no
way to be verified. I think it was being done to pas messages again
somehow, because Martinez when he was getting these emails, whoever was giving him
to him. I guess the guy's name they used request Anonymous was the person's
the sources name. He started changing some of the language because he's an English
teacher. And he said, oh, well, you know this is written
wrong. Let me correct the sentence structure. And this is spelled wrong.
They wrote to him and said, do not change any of this stuff,
because if you do, we're going to stop sending it to you. Why
should they care? I think the reason was because there was something encoded in
all those punctuation, grammar, spelling and whatever errors that needed to be seen
by somebody. And one a message might be passed, and two whoever can
figure out the message starts talking about it, and they can watch their email
and their phone calls and everything. It's like, guess what just came out
of so and so it said this, You know, how did you figure
that out? Well, then they know something they're not supposed to. So
I think it was they were out there trying to, like, like I
said, a spyfly paper again. And then there were some IT guys that
looked into it as well, and they felt they were able to prove that
the emails were coming from the same IP address as Richard dodies. Yes,
yes, I heard about this, and then and then Doty stopped talking to
me because of that, because of CERPO, because I implicated him and on
Uophi Mystic. Actually, there's a some of this is in the it defies
language, there's right entries on that. Yeah. Yeah, the one reason
I wanted to bring it up. Yeah, Doty stopped talking to me at
that point. As soon as he saw my post. He said, I
was offended by your post. I don't want to take me off any list
you're on, and I don't want to hear from you ever again. And
he hasn't talked to me since then. And I wasn't friends with him or
anything, but you know, I was. It was a cordial enough relationship
to be able to talk to him, ask him questions and get him on
Coast to Coast when I was on for Project Beta. He actually came on
and talked more than I did, which is good. It was a great
show because of that. Yeah. In fact, whether you believe him or
not or whatever the worries or whatever you want, that was historic. It
was the first time he was on any media talking about anything to do with
any of this, and it was it was pretty amazing. Yeah. In
fact, I use that show as my one source from Dodie because it's the
only place where it's coming straight from his mouth, because every time someone interviews
him in print, which of course was the medium before when all this was
happening, he easily and does deny, Oh, I didn't say that.
I didn't say that. He does this all the time, and he'll change
his story back and forth. And I feel a lot of these print sources
are credible sources, such as the saucer smear, which he wrote in a
lot where he contradicts himself left and right, which you found as well.
So that's why I use that interview as the one source because and I always
give the caveat that I don't trust what comes from this guy's mouth at all.
It changes constantly. So just to reference what his story is, here's
the one time he's on the record and you can go listen to him for
yourself. Yeah. Well, people have problems with Dodie as well, or
anybody any spy type person, intelligence connected person, because it's like, well,
how can you trust what they say? Well you can't, But if
you don't listen, you get nothing. Yeah, and if you listen occasionally
there's things you can check up on. This is what I interviewed him for
about I don't know, like three hours, a big three hour interview.
We just sat in a Denny's in New Mexico at this at a table and
interviewed him for three hours without a recorder, which was unfortunate because he wouldn't
let me. But the thing is I wanted to talk to him because he
was an important part of the story. And you know, a lot of
people's like, why do you even talk to him? He's a big liar.
It's like liars, aren't you know, he doesn't lie all the time,
and if he isn't, I can check on the stuff that corroborates.
You know, did Dotie say something? Okay? So did Bill Moore say
something? I trust Bill? And then he on top of that, What
if I talk to what gave Valdez or I talked to Gary Massey, who
was another person that knew Benewitz. What if I talk to these people they
tell me the same thing. Well, then probably Doty is telling me something
that actually happened from his point of view, and I have to consider that
as possibly an important part of the story. Then if he tells me something
that has nothing to do with what we're talking about, that seems highly implausible
and whatever, And there's no way for me to check on it. There
were many things he told me I didn't even mention in the book because they're
either irrelevant or I was pretty sure they were false. And if he did
tell me something that I that I that only came from him, I made
certain to say that this is you know, this is a DOTY said this,
not somebody else. And if I just say this happened, that means
two or three or more people told me basically the same story. Well,
I tried to do it that way. I mean, I didn't believe everything
anybody told me. Yeah, well, let's let's get on other topics,
because I didn't want to use the whole show talking about that. Oh wait
a second, we did just use the whole show talking about that. No,
I just pretty much, I'm just kidding. It's it's terribly interested.
Obviously. I'm so interested in it. And I think, you know,
because so much of the mythology that people believe in, like you know,
I talked with a religious fervor where it's sacrilege to doubt some of these things
like m J twelve all stem from this episode. Sacrilege not to doubt everything.
I agree, brother, I agree, but that's okay. I want
to bring you on and talk more about all of this actually, so we'll
talk to more about all of this. But I guess before we leave,
a couple of things I wanted to note about the book. So it's really
cool that red Pill Junkie. You know, he's a guy online that that's
his Twitter handle, and he's always in there kind of posting stuff and asking
questions. He's got a great sense of humor. And I didn't even know
till the conference when you guys were there, and it was wonderful that you
brought him so I could meet him. That people thought I was red pill
drunkie. That's hilarious. But I got that picture of both of you together,
so we know you at least we're both in the same place at the
same time in the same picture. So you know, either that or there's
more red pill junkies around you, you're both red pill junkie. I don't
know, yeah, kind of like anonymous or something. There's well, he
came because you know, the reason a lot of people came and I made
the special trip is because Jacques Roulet was there and he never makes public appearances
anymore, and somehow you got him to appear there, which is wonderful,
and he was gracious to everybody. I was flabbergasted at how friendly and accessible
he was. But yeah, that's part of the reason that Red Pill came
also because I'd never met him before. We've been talking online for like two
years, so he made the effort to come up and we bas, you
know, we shared. We shared the whole hotel room in a car and
all that stuff, so that would be a little less expensive. But yeah,
and he did a This is the first book project he's worked on,
and I hope he gets more work out of it because his illustrations and the
cover and everything are just beautiful. Looks like a nineteen fifties science fiction movie
poster, which is perfect. Do you do you recognize what that thing is
standing in the light on the underneath the UFO? Yeah, that's I can't
remember the name of the case, but yeah, that early very popular case
those guys in back east somewhere, wasn't it. Or Pasca Gula? Yeah,
Pasca Goula. Yeah, that's my favorite. My favorite alien is the
Pasca Gooula alien because it looks like it sort of looks like a Kachina.
Yeah, well, it's so weird. In the early you know, creatures
things where people were seeing, and in the seventies when lots of humanoids were
seeing, they were so varied in the descriptions. They are odd and weird,
and the best cases really have really odd description of what has been seeing.
Yeah, it's it's I think that's highly significant that, especially nineteen seventies
and before the things that people saw we were very different. Everybody had a
different you know, there were so many different humanoid types that people reported.
Kind of makes kind of makes you a little questioning about Roswell too. It's
like, wow, that kind of conforms to what everybody thinks it is now.
Yeah, seventy eight, you know, start maybe on the sixties sort
of Betty Betty and Barney Hill sort of conformed to that. Not really,
but then definitely after Bud Hopkins and Willy Strieber's books, especially the cover of
Communion, that's what everybody thought an alien looked like. So a lot of
the sightings narrowed down to that. And I think it's because people had a
template to put on their experience. There's subconscious or whatever's going on. Just
said Okay, that's what the thing looks like. So that's you know these
cases nineteen seventy and before nineteen eighty and before I guess nineteen seventies was a
very strange decade for humanoid cases. Yes, just as Albert rosalz Or look
at his site, all right, right, and of course that's when the
the main case happened. And and Travis Walton, Yeah, yeah, I
thought that was a major reveal in your book that Red Pelt Junkie is actually
Miguel Romero. Yeah. So yeah, and you're right, his illustrations are
really cool, They're awesome. He did a great job in this. Yeah.
Yeah. And I guess lastly just to end on for the the all
of the people who you know, there's there's some people a lot of my
listeners like the critical thinking and their reviewing of all of the and the kind
of skeptical review of stuff. But what are just for the something for people
to chew on and to look up. What do you feel our of the
most credible cases, maybe even if you have one that people aren't generally aware
of, h if there are any I would you know what I would say
anything before for abduction cases, anything you can find before nineteen eighty because the
things became codified. That for you know, classic cases, Like I said,
I like that Hafflin case. The Pasca Goola case is wonderful apart from
the fact that the there was more than one type of alien, but that
was the main one, was that kachina looking thing because because of the secret
recording that was made of the of the two main witnesses when the police weren't
there and they didn't think they were being recorded. Yeah. Yeah, so
people say, what are we going to say next? They're both just sitting
there going, what the hell happened? What are we going to do?
What? You know? How are you know? How are we How's this
gonna affect our lives? I'm totally freaked out, you know, all this
stuff. When then when nobody was listening, So, something definitely strange happened
to those two guys. I don't know exactly what it was or what I
would have seen if I was standing there, but to me, that's you
know, very strong indication that the something very strange happened to a couple of
guys that had no motivation whatsoever to lie about it. The weird thing is
that Charles Hickson, the one of the witnesses in the case, had two
more sightings after that, and he wrote about them in in a in uh
I think it's called UFO Contact at Pasco Gooule or something like that, a
book that came out in the late seventies, and he's described seeing seeing another
craft in the in the in the woods, in the in the south in
Mississippi where he lived, and his family saw it too, So there's other
people that saw it, So you know what, what what do you make
of that? So something very strange is going on with Charles Hickson and and
Calvin Parker. But I think that's a well documented, meanted and well uh
a case that to me is kind of a landmark if you want to if
you want to start with a landmark case, just really get it. If
you find a copy of that Charles Hickson book, I think it was he
was he had a co writer. I think Menendez or Melendez was the name
of the co writer. Anyway, if you can find that book, it's
fascinating book. All right. My last question, because yeah, that's great,
that's perfect Pascagoula, which now people know what's on the cover here where
that creature comes from. But the last question about the book, then it
defies language. What does that mean to you? What was when you came
up with that title? Did you hear me talk about this before? Because
I loved this question? No, I haven't. I was working on putting
all these essays together, writing some new ones, finding stuff that nobody had
ever read before, you know, rare stuff that I just set on my
computer for years. I'm getting all this stuff together and Red Pills working with
me, and he says, I need a title so I can start designing
this cover. And this is October of last year. I said, okay,
I'll come up with a title. November, December, January. I
still don't have a title. I can't think of one. I was like,
what the hell am I going to call this? So I took the
introduction to the book that I'd already written and put it in an online cut
up generator, which is basically it takes all the words you have and jumbles
them completely randomly, all the same words you know, like, you know,
fifteen hundred words, You get fifteen hundred words back in this cut up
generator and it just jumbles them into gibberish completely randomly. I took that and
I started reading through the gibberish, and anytime a phrase came to my head,
I would write it down. And that was one of the phrases that
came out. Oh that's hilarious, because because about four or five different phrases
came out, I put them in. I think one of them was extraordinary
claims. And I thought, oh, no, that sounds like a total
skeptical book. I don't you know that the skeptic you know, the fundamental
one. Yeah, fundamental skeptical movement has co opted that phrase and turned it
into something that scares people don't like. I settled on its little too cliche.
It's a little more cliche. I settle on it defies language two reasons.
One, it's hilarious. It's a book called it Defies Language. That's
great. And two, I think that the terms we use to describe what
we see or what UFOs are are limiting us because language limits your thought.
It only lets you think about certain things that you can describe in language.
So I'm what I'm saying is a lot of you know, a lot of
the UFO, any paranormal stuff is limited by the language and the language determines
how we think about it, and there's got to be a way to get
around that. I'm not not exactly sure what it is. It might lie
in the realm of you know, creative thinking or art. I'm not sure.
I've got I've got an essay on there called UFOs is a Cosmic art
project. And then I've got a part two. Basically, yes, I
I in the talk I'm working on. I'm trying to bring in more things
like archetypes and jung and mythology. My wife is working on a doctorate in
that right now. Wow, So actually have a lot of conversations with her
about it, and it's relevant to what I'm trying to figure out right now,
because I think a lot of the thing what's most important with the UFO
question to me is what causes UFO sightings? What do people see when they
have an unexplained sighting of something? What is it that they're looking at.
I don't know what that is, but I think it has a lot to
do with who we are, how we think about things, what our language
is like, all that, and it comes through all those filters before we
decide that I've seen a flying saucer with aliens on it or whatever we decide.
So that to me is fascinating, and that, to me is a
very important question what do people see? And we have to go back to
a basic question like that, what do people see? How do they see
it? And is there any way to get past get out of our own
way? If you know what I'm saying here, m h Well perfect,
And where are you going to do this talk? I've already done one very
embryonic version of it and the next as far as I know, the next
version is going to be at IUFOC next year. That's right. So yeah,
we're announcing it again that I've done this actually with I think the last
guest, and we haven't officially announced anybody yet, but I've been announcing a
person to show, not intentionally, it's just working out that way. So
we had Paul Stonehill was our guest last week and he will be speaking at
the conference. He's also got a new book out And yes, you for
and this isn't your first time. It's your first time with us. But
you've spoke at the UFO Congress a few other times, haven't you? Two
or three times? The last time probably was almost ten years ago, Yeah,
because I started saying things that made people mad, and I didn't come
out with a lot of books. But I think one I released this book,
and two, I think people are starting to, especially in the last
year or so, which is wonderful, are starting to become more open mind
about going back to basics and starting to look at things rather than in the
nuts and bolts and how can we measure it? And all that thing going
going back to what I just said, what do we see, how do
we see it? And how does that reflect on how we think about it?
You know what, you can't make a UFO come up on demand.
It just it just doesn't work. So you've got to think of different ways
to study them. Yeah, And on the far end, the fringe end,
I think they're rethinking things too, because on the fringe, a lot
of those people out there who are the ones that they follow, you know,
almost like the UFO profits, They've made all these promises about what's going
to come to fruition and none of those things have happened, And so I
think they're kind of relooking at everything themselves as well. So, which isn't
a bad thing at all. We all, I think need to kind of
constantly be challenging ourselves in our own beliefs. Yeah, trust no one except
for your ability to, you know, to discern what's what's more credible and
believable or not. I think that's only the only person you should trust is
yourself trusting it. Putting your total trust in anybody else's, I think is
always a huge mistake. Amen to that. Brother. Well, it was
awesome having you on. This was a great talk, and we'll definitely talk
again, I'm sure before the conference. I would like to at least,
but very very excited to have you speaking at the conference as well. And
I highly highly recommend the book. And where can people Where's the best place
for people to go get the book? Well, for me, the best
place is go to lululu dot com because I get the biggest chunk from it.
Good. Then that's where we will send people. Yeah, I can
send you those links. But it's also I actually formatted it for Kindle myself.
The Kindle version actually is about half the price, and there's about seventy
more pages of material and color color illustrations and pictures and things like that in
it, and links and things like that, things that you can do in
a kindle that you can't do in a print book. So yeah, either
go to Amazon you can buy it there by a kindle, or the best
for me is Lulu. Secondarily, the best for me is actually Kindle if
people want to do it that way, but cool and kindle. Yeah,
all right, thanks so much for being on All right, thanks so much
for having me Alhandra and I'll talk to you again soon. Thank you so
much to Greg Bishop for being on the show. I mean, I hope
you all really enjoyed that. I certainly did. In fact, this might
have been one of my favorite shows in a long time. Although I have
a lot of fun, as you can tell with most of the shows,
so this was really really fascinating. I apologize if we got too much into
the details. I just feel that this is a situation where we have on
the record an Air Force official, while he was in the Air Force talking
about UFO and giving information to people in the public, information that he at
the time purported was real UFO documents and now admittedly says they were not.
So he is essentially admitting to being involved with fraudulent activity while he was in
the Air Force. I think the Air Force needs to respond to this,
and that's why at Open Mindset TV, I do have an open letter to
the Air Force where I outline all of the evidence and of course citing Great
Bishop's Project Beta, but also Greg Bishop's appearance on Coast to Coast with Richard
Dody, where Richard Dody admits to all of this. You can hear him
firsthand. So I just think that this case is really important for those reasons.
You will not find this elsewhere. So if the Air Force had any
involvement, and essentially you can see the information I have when I made requests
to the Air Force A, we're essentially saying no, we didn't. However,
the documents they showed me demonstrated that Richard Dody was involved with false information
being or given to somebody, including two senators. So you can hear this
in my report there and you can see it in the report. So the
Air Force absolutely needs to make an official comment as to whether or not Richard
Dody was under orders to do this bs that he was doing out there,
and their only response to this whole thing has been to write bogus on one
of the m J twelve documents. Okay, sure that documents bogus. But
why is it that your employee, your you know, is the one who
was involved with at first dispensing this information. I mean that was That's the
big question they have yet to answer. So hopefully we can get these sort
of answers because it's important and we need to know if Great Bishop is in
fact correct. You know that you know, all of this mythology that has
been built in the UFO community that people cling to UH was all part of
a disinformation UH project by the US Air Force in order to cover up projects
so the Russians wouldn't find that out? Is that the case? And you
know, some people get afraid and I think upset because then they think that
that kind of poopoo's the entire idea of UFOs. But no, I don't,
not at all. We still have blue Book, we still have Roswell,
we still have Rendershom, we still have a lot of great cases and
situations that are credible. But it's important for understanding, for us to understand
what isn't is not credible, so we can make sure that we're not following
chasing our tails or you know, going on these wild goose chases. Because
certainly some people have built their careers around this mythology that came out during the
Doughty years. So other than that, great Bishop, I mean, what
a great guy, what a great researcher. I very much implore everyone to
check out his podcast Radio Mysterio, and then also check out his book,
which, as he talked about, you can find on Amazon or ascribed or
get the kindle version. So thank you very much to Great Bishop. A
couple notes. I noted this earlier, but and I want to repeat this,
not just because I'm speaking at these venues, but because you know,
I'm very grateful to these guys to allow me to share my information and to
share what Open Minds does with their audiences. So I want to make sure
and do what I can to help them get audiences. But I want to
thank the Roswell Daily Record again. I'll be there this weekend. You can
go just google the Roswell Daily Record and you'll see the Roswell Incident, which
is information about their event that is going on this weekend in honor of the
anniversary of the Roswell Incident, and I'll be speaking there. You'll also be
able to go across down the street and to the UFO Museum and see people
like Don Schmidt and Travis Walton and Stanton Friedman and Kathleen Martin and Avon Smith
and a number of other people. I'm forgetting many people, but they've got
a lot of great speakers there too, so it's just a lot of fun
and I love seeing everybody there, and of course it's always fun to hang
out with my good buddy Lee Spiegel. Ben Hansen is going to be out
there doing a SkyWatch like he just for the UFO Congress as well. And
then I also want to thank Mofon because they're going to be having me speak,
and be sure to schedule your travel and get out there if you can.
The Moufon Symposium. I'll be speaking about official government UFO agencies because as
you know, I've interviewed a lot of the officials at work for these agencies,
and not everybody knows the details about which ones exist currently and why they
exist, because that's where the interesting story is. Many of these agencies exist
today because of incredible UFO incidents that happened in their countries that caught the eye
of the public and or their government officials. In the case of France,
the President was very interested in one case, and that's kind of what encouraged
them to get into UFO research. So I'm really excited to share this information
at the Moufon Symposium. Thank you guys for having me there. You could
just look up Moufon Symposium and find more information about that. Plus I talked
about Richard Hoffman earlier, he's gonna be there. Oh, they just announced
two Robert Hastings, who I had on the show recently, does the investigation
or the work on UFO nukes. That's gonna be their keynote speaker. So
that's an exciting one. Otherwise, they have a whole list of exciting speakers,
and so you could go to moufon dot com or just google Moufon Symposium
and find out more about that, or for all of these, you can
go to the event page at Openminds dot tv and be able to get links
and information there as well. So it's going to be a fun and interesting
summer. And then of course we are taking registrations for the UFO Congress right
now, and let me give you another name of a speaker. Let's see
who have I got confirmed. I've already told you guys, we're gonna have
Ryan Sprague, We're gonna have Paul Stonehel We're also gonna have Well. We're
gonna have Kathleen Martin and Avonne Smith. So Von Smith is there every year
to talk about Well too. She always does the panel, she helps us
guide the panel for abductions at the conference, and she does the experiencer sessions
during the day and night where people can come and share their experiences. She
will also have her own talk. Now I'm not sure what even the topic's
gonna be, but I'm excited about that. And Kathleen Martin is gonna be
speaking about something she usually doesn't. She's move On's abduction expert, and of
course she's the niece of Betty Hill. However, she's gonna be talking about
weirdness that goes on with different UFO cases. So this is a talk I
don't know that she's ever done before, and it's gonna be something completely different.
So that'll be a lot of fun. So there's a couple other names.
We'll have more names up for you probably next week. So we're really
looking forward to the U Congress this year. I think it's gonna be a
great lineup. I'm so excited by the people. We've got confirmations from so
far, and we'll be letting you know more about that. But right now
you can get the super early Bird special, and like I said, on
July second, watch our social media, we'll send out information on how you
can get an even bigger discount. So essentially the cheapest prices are. On
July second, I will be out of town, so I'm gonna be hard
to reach, so you're gonna have to watch our social media and so it'll
get you more information about that. So exciting stuff. Oh my gosh,
and it's a long weekend. How cool is that. I hope you all
have a wonderful July for us. I want to thank Caleb Hanks for the
opening and close music. I want to thank the Dark Matters Network for playing
or replaying our show, also the PSN network that replace our show. And
I want to thank you the most the listeners for being there to listen every
week. It's so fun to be able to share this information with you,
and it just means a lot that there's so many of you out there that
enjoy hearing it. So we'll talk to you again in a couple of weeks.
Have a great July fourth weekend. Audios mood Chattos, your emotionless soun