Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. As you probably can
imagine, I'm a huge fan of Dune and I really enjoyed Dune Part two,
the movie that just came out, and all the questions that raises about
religion and politics. These are things I'm going to be questioning a lot and
talking about on my own episodes coming up. But recently I was invited to
be a guest on an episode of the film Board, a podcast that's part
of the same True Story FM network that I'm part of, where we talked
about Dune Part two. I'm having some computer problems right now, so I'm
going to be rebroadcasting that episode for you right now. There's a lot of
great stuff to listen to that I hope you enjoy. I got to be
talking with some other wonderful people who are hopefully could be guests on this podcast.
I will be doing my own content on Dune Part two coming soon,
but for now, please enjoy this episode. Please subscribe to the film Board
and some of the other great things that True STORYFM is doing. Of course,
please look into being a member. Let us know what you think.
All the ways to contacts from the show notes and most importantly, we have
spoken in the year of the Imperium's grace. On the cusp of yet another
turning of the cosmic wheel, the film board gathers beneath the twin moons of
discourse and reflection, a sandworm of colossal narrative has surfaced from the sands of
imagination, a creation that weaves the very fabric visual storytelling into a tapestry rich
with the hues of a Racus itself. We acolytes of screen and scholars of
saga explore the dunes and sieches of Deni v Neuv's vision, where the ancient
prophecies of Frank Herbert's words have found new life amidst the stars. This is
done part two. It's breathtaking when you see sand here. Imagine water.
If you dive in, you can't reach the bottle you dive in. Yes,
it's cult swimming, don't I don't believe you. In the shadows of
Aracus lie many secrets, But the darkest of them all may remain the end
of House, the treaties your father didn't believe in revenge? What if paula
treaties were still alive? Have you ever had a dream about your first ride
that I didn't prison anyone. Mm hmm, you're brief. We all know
that be simple, be direct, nothing frenzy. I understand we are the
chroniclers of this Dooney epic. Let the conversation begin as timeless as Shai Hulud's
endless journey through the deep sands. I am beate right and bring you the
conclave with film borders. Now, baron Steve Sarmento, I will make him
spicy, and Mahdi Matthew Fox. Look anytimes in DAYA gets a white boy
to eat spicy food, I'm in for it. So I will say that
this was supposed to be a stacked film board. But I don't know if
you've heard. There's a thing going around called the Sick and our Own sandwriter
Kyle Olson and Gaias Tommy Mets the Third about out literally just minutes before the
show. They're they're very ill. So we raise our glass of spit water
to them as we as we move into this. This was a really interesting
thing as we as we set up this conversation because Steve, you posted today
in Discord that as it happened the last time uh a Dune movie came out.
It was Us plus Ocean talking about that that movie, so we had
the opportunity to hear past selves discuss what we wanted in today's movie, which
was a little bit bunkers. I feel like the Ghost of Christmas future.
Yes, do you want to? Do you want to? Open with a
bit of a reflection about what we said. Knowing that it was two parts,
there was a lot of speculation about what part two would hold. And
what was very interesting was we were recording this shortly after release, so they
hadn't even locked in for sure that there was a part two. They hadn't
officially announced that. So we're like, we sure hope we get this part
two, and this is what we sure hope to see. And I,
you know, wondered if part two was going to impact my you know,
review of part one after seeing part two. So I did rewatch part one,
you know last night you know part two? Or yes, well I
watched part whichever day this is recording prior to watching part two. I watched
Part one like twelve hours prior, so it's all fresh in my mind.
But and that had been the first time I'd watched Dune Part one since we
talked about it you long ago in twenty twenty one. I believe it was.
But it was so pleasant to get back in the groove of the sand,
in the grit, in the in the the desert. But listening to
that conversation again reminded me so much of what I loved about the first one
and really prime me for this conversation of what we were going to dig into
this time. Is part two takes it into a different direction. Yeah,
I really find it fascinating that we are that we're having I think, this
conversation about that movie, and you know, spoiler alert, We're gonna have
the same conversation about Doune Part three at the end of this. So you
know, I think I listened to it too, and I think what's so
fascinating about is just how well it held up and how split we were.
I think two of us I believe Matthew, you were in the crew of
Yeah. I can't think about this as a single movie. I have to
think about this after I have seen part two. So I tossed to you
does it hold up as a single movie? It absolutely does, And I
think primarily because it holds up as an adaptation of the book, and we'll
get more into this, but I are there are two kind of things I
want to say about this. The book is very dry and very like it's
not aged well in a lot of ways. If you think the homoticism of
the Harconins is a little over the top, oh boy, it's so much
worse than the movies. And not that homotism is bad, but homoticism equals
bad guy as bad as what I'm saying, so much worse in the book.
Yeah, But you know, I think the fundamental idea here is do
you think Paul is a hero? Because if you read the book or watch
the movie and think Paul is a hero, you've come away with the wrong
idea. And for example, Ineen in the David Lynch version, which is
a great fun movie, but Paul is very much the hero and the book
is very much a critique of that, and it's meant to be that.
And I was really nervous in the first part. I was like, are
they meaning it to be the critique that the book is? And I think
the movie did a very good job of doing that. I think there's one
major change they did which I think actually should be an object lesson in how
to adapt things from book to movie that we'll talk about to help make the
point that the protagonist is not the hero. But yeah, overall, I
was very pleased. This was very much the movie that I wanted it to
be. Oh, I'm so glad. I'm so glad because I have heard
criticism about the adaptation because I think in this movie there are more changes than
there were in the first movie adaptation, and I need some help. I
know, Matthew, you've been reading the book. And Steve, when did
you say the last time was you read the book. I've read it.
So I read the first half prior to Dune Part one, and then finished
the second half shortly thereafter. So it's been a couple of years, but
it's still fresh enough to really because as I watched, to say, wait
a second, this isn't Yeah, they've they made things that I fully expected
that we're just not in the second half of the movie. I think one
of the things that is that is interesting about this one is it's it's a
little bit of the season five ish of Breaking Bad, because we we actually
get the turn of our protagonist into the into I think ultimately the antagonist.
And I'm curious to see how that conversation goes. This is the story.
I mean, it picks up straight away from the first movie, and he
has just had his heroic fight in the sand, and they're now wrapping up
the body of Jazz Mirror Jim Jim Seers James Jamis and he made it way
too hard. Uh. And they're wrapping him up to take his water,
and they're going off to their seat and uh and picking it up right there.
And it really does, I think, pretty quickly become much more of
a Chawny movie. And I think that was a big problem we had with
the first one too, that that Channi was a vision. Channy was a
dream. Johnny was Zendaya with not a lot to do, and this movie,
Zendaia has a lot to do. Uh. And and I think centering
this second half of the movie with the Fremen makes makes for a much more
interesting, plot driven story that I think was looser in the first one.
Fair assessment. Yeah, And I can I give my theory here about the
way what I meant about the changes that I think actually make it more true.
It's gonna be, as I said in the book, because you're getting
so many people's point of views. I think it's easier to read the idea
that Paul is wrong, that Paul is becoming locked in more and more to
this religious fanaticism, that the men a Jesuit are really problematic and is propaganda
and all that kind of stuff. I think that's very hard to show on
screen. And so when I think this movie did is it said, we're
going to make one major change that will actually allow it to be truer to
the spirit of the book, which is that I think they realize that on
screen you need to have a protagonist to root for. And I wass thinking
about this because so like an interview is with Martin Scorsese talking about that he
made with Copla. I'm sorry, but they were deeply surprised that people were
rooting for the Corleones, you know that, like this was supposed to be
moving with bad people. The big change they make is that in the book,
Chawnny is totally supportive of him, whereas in the movie, she's the
one who sees that he's going down this messionic path, and that's really problematic.
That he's an outsider, that he's a colonizer, that he is,
that his ben a jestered mother has like seated all this, and I think
by giving that to us, it gives us in the audience someone to root
for that we need on screen in a way we don't need on the page,
and thus allows us to be again because I think if she is just
as supportive of him, we might walk away being like, oh, I
guess Paul's the protagonists. We're supposed to root for him without realizing the whole
movie is supposed to be about why he's not, why he's not the hero.
That's a really interesting take. I didn't expect you to go that direction.
For me, I think the twist was just how much is spent giving
Paul the opportunity to say, I'm not going south. If I go south,
bad things happen. I know bad things will happen if I follow this
path, and everyone else keeps telling him he has to go south. I
think the piece that was really I thought beautiful to me in this sort of
the third act was him accepting the fact that he really didn't have a choice.
He had to go. He had to pick up this mantle, and
critically he knew it. He knew when he had to make that choice,
he knew when he had to ask for to tell Florence Pugh that she would
be his bride. He knew all those things were wrong because they set it
up in the first two acts of the movie. Right. They set it
up when he was wandering the desert, and by the time he gets it
and makes that turn and sets the Holy Wars ablaze, we realize that he's
Heisenberg. Does that? I mean, is that a fair assessment too?
I want to make sure I didn't read something Bunkers into the movie. No,
I think that's very true. I think it's that, and that's also
directly driven from the book, the whole going south thing, not as much
but him seeing the trap and resisting it. I think what's different in the
book is in the movie is that Shawnnie is able to step back and say,
you only need to do You are falling into a trap, but it's
one that your mother and her people made, right. Yeah, And that
I want to destroy the whole trap instead of you choosing to fall into it.
Yeah. Right. They gave her a new sense of agency that I
don't think she had in the book. Right. No, they Yeah,
they pretty much sideline her in the book to be like, now you're a
mom. I mean, that was one of the big the big changes is
like let's just sideline her basically, that's saddle her with a kid, and
that it's just gonna you know, it really takes right whereas you know,
by shortening that time frame, by not playing that that aspect of that latter
part of the book out, it really keeps things tight and tense between Paul
and Chohanny, and we get that dynamic tension going on, but that the
solely builds I mean and even to some some comic effect, right because at
least in my theater, there's there there was a sort of a rumbling chuckle
in that moment where it's oh, you know, he's like, no,
I'm not the guy. See he's so humble, He's not he says he's
not the guy. So he's clearly the guy. And everybody just sort of
like laughs, becuse it's like, yeah, we're getting into this, you
know, really kind of uncomfortable thing of like the fanaticism that they will drive
people to see the things that they want to see and those things so it
really leans leans into that whole the prophecy piece and and everything and going back
to you know, our reviews of you Know Part one, Matthew, that
was one of the things you really wanted to see the story dig into more
was that whole aspect. And I think Channi comes right out and says it
in this one of like, yeah, they you know, they're they're they're
manipulating us. The way to control people is to tell them a prophecy,
right, and then and then have that come true. It's like this this
great thing. So we just see that really explicitly, you know, played
out for us in this film. So right, Yeah, I mean to
kind of tire the two things we're saying Pete together because I think they fit
very well. I think you're right that we are that we are supposed to
believe that Paul believes he absolutely has to do this, and I think what
the book makes clear, but it would be harder to do on screen,
and so they use Chawni is Chawni is the one who can see that whether
or not he has to, he's still wrong to do it, because I
think without Chawnie the audience might walk out thinking, Wow, Paul was such
a brave hero, willing to accept the thing he had to do for the
right thing, and that's so not the point. Yeah, but I think
without Shawny it'll be harder to see that. Absolutely. I will also say,
Steve, when you talked about the Chucklan, my audience was when it
created, there's so much politics. It's not a lot. I don't think
it's gonna be a classic love triangle, which I'm glad for because it's much
more about politics. But the chuckl in my audience was when you know,
SHAWNI is there with him and Paul says, oh, and by the way,
Emperor, I'm going to marry your daughter, and they cut to a
look on Channie's face and I was like, Oh, that's that's herring euportia
right there, that's that's that's the one that's fair. That's fair. I
could see a little euphoria. Yeah, they did drip it in. I
want to dig in a little bit on the messianic pieces of this, because
here I have, I mean, here we are, and you both as
as students of scripture, I'm really curious your take on how the book,
how the movie handled this beyond what we're talking about with Paul's specific turn,
but how the movie handles the general I would say cultural aesthetic of the Messiah
story, because it feels like twenty twenty four's Messiah story is different than Herbert's.
Is that fair well? I think there's two important thing. One is
that I think for many of us, when we hear the word Messiah,
we think Christianity and Jesus Christ. And it's important to understand that all three
of the Abrahamic religions, to some extent or another, have a very strong
idea of Messiah. And in Judaism a lot of Jewish people have moved away
from it, some sects of Judaism still very much believe that Messiah hasn't come
but will come eventually. And Islam also has a very strong idea of Asiah.
And so I do think that in many ways Herbert was making this more
about Islamic ideas of Messiah, I think Christian ones, so to the point
where I mean there's a lot of like the words are directly taken from Arabic
and from them like here we talk about Crusade in the book at Jihad.
I think Herbert was a lot more revolutionary in the nineteen sixties to be as
critical of organized religion and Aberhamic faiths and prophecy and prophecy of a way of
outsiders to mobilize indigenous people. I think today as a culture we are much
more on that side, But I'm not It felt fairly true to the adaptation
of it in this well to the point that I mean, I think you
may have made the point I didn't. I didn't think I was about to
make, but wanted to, which is that Herbert was ahead of his time
enough that when we see a movie that so overtly points out areas to be
critical about, you know, profits about prophecy of outsider coming in to rally
the people, and have so many characters who are so overtly using that the
tools of propaganda to you know, to demonstrate the power of mobilizing people,
I think that's maybe maybe Herbert was writing twenty twenty four's Massiah Complex all along
well. As I said on the discussion of part one, I really believe
art has a way of speaking its truth into the world and reflecting the truth
that is in the world of why do certain movies get made at certain times,
and looking at what this film might have to say about religious fanaticism or
people buying into specific beliefs because we do have this. What I find interesting
is when we have that moment with the water of life, when it's the
when Paul's mother is going in for that ritual and we've got Chany saying,
oh, well, the people of the north like this is you know,
this is just she's poisoning herself. But the people in the South are You're
more like fundamental, like diehird religious ones, and it's like, hey,
we're praying over here, quit you're joking around. It's that that skis in
between the two between the North and the South of aspects of any culture,
where you'll have that separation of those that are perhaps you know more in the
contemporary culture where there is you know, you have to be part of the
world, you have to be part of a global economy, versus those that
are fundamental in the South, where there there is nobody else living there,
Right, That's why the Harconas don't go down there. They're like it's inhabitable.
That's where the fundamentalists are. They have separated themselves out and built their
own little kind of separate from any other influence. And to look at what
that says about how cultures behave the interaction between the two of the role that
this messianic character plays. You know, do we really unify these things?
You know, I think what what Herbert did with with this whole thing of
bringing in the marriage with the you know and you know, the empire and
all of that. In casting Chinese, it's really you know, I don't
know how you can see Paul as the hero, but you see him as
like the dude that's got to do what he has to do for political reasons,
right, I mean, that's you think it's this love story. It's
like, no, he's doing what he feels that he needs to do to
fulfill his father's vision. Right of it's all about the power. So I
think the interplay between those aspects of political power and leveraging people of faith and
all that is very much still accurate and alive in America today. Yeah.
I think it's such a good point. And I one thing I really love
aout what you're just saying then, Steve, is that it shows us that
the Fremen are not a you know, monovocal culture who are all the same.
And I'll feel the same. I think a lot of the certainly the
David Lynch portrayal of them. But also just often the way in either movies
or in real life that we often look at cultures that we think of as
other, as exotic, as different, and often that means indigenous, is
that they all feel the same way. And so seeing these different parts of
the not just that Zda is a is an outcast, but that yeah,
and part part of generational that a lot of young people are just like,
eh, that's that's granddad with this religion. But also it's different regions have
very different feelings on this. That's interesting because I think the movie actually does
a really good job of demonstrating exactly what you both are talking about with the
with the experience of the Fremenu, the hearken and are the monolithic bad guy.
They're the Emperor Empire, right. I mean, I don't get a
sense that they're anything but a monoculture of politically movie. I mean, they're
quite literally monochromatic exactly, They're mono exactly. Do you know what they have
though? That is the best They have the best fireworks rights in the sky.
That was extraordinary. I loved it. I will say it's in the
interesting I think to decide how many movies this series is going to be because
I would actually say that this is a part two takes place in two parts,
its interrupted by a short movie in the middle called Let's Meet the Knob
Baron, which is a black and white movie. Yes, And I thought
though that making it monok like the filmmaking whenever they explain it that there's a
black sun, which if there are any physicists out there, astrophysicists, this
sounds like pure nonsense. And it's not in the book as far as I
can tell. He's not in the first book. It might be late later,
but it's so beautiful that you don't care, and it's so perfect.
And to me, my take on the Harconin is that I think I think
what Herbert was trying to do, and I think what movie captures is say,
I'm not going to tell you that there's pure good and pure evil.
I am going to give you that there's pure evil, but that the people
who think they're good fighting actually are the really morally complex ones, most of
whom are not as good as they think. So that yeah, there is
a malevolent force of darkness in the world for Harconin, who are just laughable
and ridiculous and terrifying. But then everyone else is like, it's the way,
it's what we do to fight evil that makes us like all so much
more complex, which is so interesting because I mean, you look at what
is happening with the fremin and with the remaining of treadees, that we have
the voices of innocence that are already compromised in utero, right. I thought
this was an interesting choice because for me, the grand memory of so much
of Doune was the portrayal of you know, Paul's sister, and the sister
is never born in this take of Doune, the sister is already overtaken or
unleashed by the power of the spice and the water of life, that it
becomes a sort of sentient political will while still being born by her mother.
And I thought that was a really interesting choice to take the voice of innocence
as innocent as you can possibly have it, right, the voice of an
unborn child, and make it a political activist. That that whole piece and
I and they do get into that in the book a little bit more.
They do touch on that is, you know, Lady Jessica goes into that
and she says, basically, she's going to be taken on basically all the
memories of all the reverend mothers before her, and so assuming that that is
now not only passed to her, but to the unborn child. Of what
all that wisdom is analedge but somehow filtered because there's there's clearly some some insight,
but again there is that lack of worldly experience of living life of almost
the purest form not just innocence, but just intellectual knowledge abstracted from I have
nothing. You know, I'm protected, right, I'm not putting my life
on the line. I'm not out there present in the world. I can
be this, you know, like I guess reverse puppet master, right,
you know, she can she can speak to to what's going on, she
can hear everything that's going on, which I found is a fascinating way to
have that character still have influence in the story without us having to go through
all of the you know, let's kick the can down the road, you
know, you know, a year to have this child born all of that,
to keep things tight and do that, that was a you know,
really nice way to handle that, and it was an interesting aspect of the
character that to have such a strong presence without actually ever really being present on
the screen. Yeah, and such a great exercise in narrative economy. Yes,
right to your point, we didn't have any jump forwards in time.
I'm sorry, Yeah, I think it really worked because, as we're saying
in the book, it's over three years or so. Here it's over six
months. But if it is over three years, again, just how do
you put this on screen? You now need to have a top a two
year old who is saying all this, and that's either going to be some
weird like talking baby movie CGI that's going to really really uncomfortable, or in
David Lynch's they've make it like a six year old girl dressed all in black.
It's a nightmare child. You know, it's very creepy. Uh,
she is very creepy. Uh. But yeah, I thought this worked really
well and predictably if you are in certain corners of the internet, either on
the pro or anti side, people have decided to make this thing, Oh
geez, the newest debate over you know, all the IVF stuff that's happening
right now. To be clear that both the book and the movies say like
this is not a statement about a normal you know or feet this is a
statement about you know, super godpowered drunk the blood, so right, yeah,
but you know I thought it was creepy and uncomfortable, but in a
way that really this really has me thinking a lot about how do you translate
on screen to book? And I just don't think a world savvy two year
old is going to translate on screen in any recognizable way. No. And
also, you know, we have to think about, you know, what
then happens with this ongoing conflict on the planet. While it's like we need
to move time forward for this character to be born, so we're just going
to put all this tension and conflict that's going that the Harconins are basically wiping
everybody off the face of the Northern hemisphere. So for two years like oh,
it's just status quo and nothing progresses. No that you know, by
moving that, keeping the timeline tight, we're able to build on that tension
of there's this massive genocide that's progressing as they basically wipe and push them down
to the south to we've now reached that breaking point of like where where's it
going to give? And I think I can understand narratively that choice to do
that, to keep that tension as you have to adapt, you know,
the elements from a book but in a movie. Yeah, the last thing
I wanted was three years later, you know, on the screen, because
it's just yeah, it just it kills the momentum, you know, does
all those things. So I think they found a really nice way to handle
that character of the sister and to keep at tension going with this this conflict,
to keep us on the edge of our seats. Is we're moving forward
because this is part one. Set all the pieces on the board. This
is you know, everything starts to move and we've got the chess game being
played out for us. But you know, sorry, Matthew, not enough
boardroom meetings in this one is an awesome callback boardroom opportunities. I was wondering
when I was gonna bring this up. I tried hard not to roll my
eyes too visibly when you mentioned the quote about the director not liking dialogue,
but you failed. Let me just tell you, I love this movie a
lot more. I think in part because there's a lot more dialogue and a
lot more it is political boardrooms and things like that, and while still being
a visually stunning masterpiece, and again that that's a stylistic perspective of mine.
I'm not saying that director's wrong. I'm just think it's not the stuff that
I love necessarily. But I will say I thought so much of this was
so good in terms of all of that. My one big complaint there are
some actors who are so very much that actor that I no longer think they
can just slip into a role and stop being that actor. And so when
in the middle of this very deep, very intense movie, all of a
sudden, instead of an emperor, there's Christopher Walking on screen who is just
like he's shuffling, and then he's I can't do his voice at all.
But it's just like, this is supposed to be the most powerful man in
the galaxy. This is supposed to be a man who has who is a
god emperor. And maybe it's because there's everything I know about Christopher Walkin,
but also I thought his perfore, his performance, he just felt like an
old guy who's gotta like, I don't know if I can hold on a
bough anymore. What am I gonna do? You know this, Yeah,
I don't know why Christopher Walking becomes an old Jewish man from Brooklyn in my
mind, right, you really don't know why everything about him felt so wrong.
But the rest of that, yeah, I love the board meetings,
I love the court. I'm going to push back on that a little bit
Court because I'm curious as to because, as I recall in the book,
the emperor is not very present in the book. As I recall, so
I really see that maybe that choice of picking someone like Chris walk and who
can you know, play that as a little bit more more fragile, as
you say, sort of shuffling around as the Harcone has seeing this as their
opportunity, as the emperor is in decline, so he's got a daughter,
he doesn't have a male error, you know, coming in. So is
this is this play into that choice of casting of if we have somebody that
is that is strong and just charismatic and virile and like I am the emperor,
that introduces a different element that to me, you know, right now,
he's I can see why the houses might want to go to war to
see who's going to step into that role because he's somebody that can easily get
get toppled. So I think that's sort of the way I'm looking at that
of Paul can make this play because yeah, ever isn't in a position of
strength anymore. He doesn't have that. So that's sort of the way I'm
I'm looking at. But I agree, there's there are plenty of other actors
that wouldn't be as you know, Yeah, it just pulls you out for
a second. It is. It's like, oh, we've done this great
job of putting the audience in this other time, in this other planet,
and Christopher Walking just could be a bit of a strike to no fault of
his own. It's just he had He's one of those actors that is got
whatever he plays, he's he's Christopher Walking. Yeah, I will say Brian
Blake in our comments totally agrees with you. Steve. I guess I think
you're making a good point. I guess I just mean for me, Walking
is a is It's not just days old or and fragile and vulnerable. It's
that he's comedically doing that and instead of and so I saw it as a
comedic portrayal of weakness instead of all. I think that point is well made
because I don't know that walkin at this point in his career and he's that
he's a stereotype of himself, right, He's a character of himself that I
don't believe he's trying to play comic. I believe that he comes off as
comic because of the baggage that he drags behind. Yes, I'm not sure
that I necessarily believe that he fathered Florence Pew. I just there are there
are questions, but but it also brings to mind to me. One of
the things that I think is a bit of a trick of this movie is
that it took a very dense bit of source material and it actually presented a
political movie in a in a way that I think was easy to distill on
screen and not over complicate it. Right. This is this is a movie
where I was able to keep track of all of the characters and all of
the motivations, and none of them felt overdone. And I say that right
now because I think Florence Pugh's character might have been dancing on the razor's edge
of that in another movie, in another director's hands. Uh, it might
have been a shadow manipulator to the point of confusion in this story. But
what they did by holding back a lot of I think that manipulative you know,
the manipultive angles here was allowed the final line of you know, I
guess he started the Holy Wars, you know, the whole you know,
that is I think a really interesting way to set up what could have been,
or what might still be, a much more complicated political story in the
form of Messiah, where we have all of the houses fighting each other.
Right now, we just have a boardroom, right like, we have a
house, a wasted house, and the Emperor, and we can track of
all the pieces on the board right like that. I think is a is
a sort of narrative bit of narrative wizardry in this movie that helps it make
sense and still be beautiful and approachable. No, it is because there's so
much that happens in that in that final scene where we've got the final the
final duel, we've got the challenge, we've got the proposal, We've got
Lady Jessica just asserting her dominance by telling the big reverend mother like basically back
off. So you've got this complete shift in power that happens all in this
and it's it's very clear to track who those players are and who's who's rising
to power. And who's now following what that transition is. Yeah, because
the other houses are out there and we get we get a little bit you
know, through like a telephone of like, oh they're they're doing this,
they're not doing that, because yeah, it is. That will become a
factor. But really to keep it as simple as those pieces and that we
can track it all, because I think that's that's the important piece, that
we can't be confused as to who's doing what and why I could I could
easily track all of that. And there's multiple story threads going on with that,
especially when you start to just quickly, you know, introduce things like
oh, yeah, by the way, we're gonna twist this a little bit
and let you know that Jessica is Baron Harkonen's daughter, right, So we've
got all of that piece that gets open in there. Most it's just really
you know, you know, complicating things with that which is done and I
think they've managed to how do you stay faithful to the source material, make
it coherent for a viewer that's sat through, you know, two hours and
forty minutes of this to be engaged in tracking with it and not walk away
confused as to what happened, why it's happened, and where the story is
likely leading to next. All in that that last scene is that's a lot
of heavy lifting for a writer. And I think it's also where the changes
from the book are actually really useful, because I think Herbert was a brilliant
writer of his time in many many ways, and many of his stuff is
incredibly timeless. And I know this will come as a great shock to maybe
both of you and to our listener. Anthough Steve has read it before,
a science fiction novel written by a man in the nineteen sixties does not have
the best characterizations of women that I have ever read. On page wait what
I know? I know, shocking, shocking, shocked. There's gambling going
on in this is deb exactly. Brian actually pointed out that in the book,
she's kind of uh chowing the the try the triangle that you might think
between Chawny and Princess Erdolan and Paul is kind of presented as well. He's
got the native, you know, concubine, but he still gets to marry
the rich white woman. I think a I think the way that Chawny breaks
away from Paul so that there's never a sense of like like. I think
Paul is pretty clear that he has lost Chawny by the time that he suggests
that he should marry her, and that Chani does not lead. I mean,
that's maybe the final It is the ceremony with the Emperor of him becoming
emperor, not him wanting to marry this other woman that is white, because
you know, I think it would have looked really awful if it'd been done
a different way. But every think with Aerdalon in general, I think they
give them a lot more characterization than they do in the book, which is
the one thing that I had a problem with. Maybe this is just my
face blindness, and it was very obvious to you guys. I did find
it confusing when we get introduced to Princess Erdalan, who is a pale blonde
benad gesture at woman, and then not long after it, a pale blonde
bened gesture at woman goes to the Harkonins to seduce Faate and granted's in black
and white, so that might be part of the confusion. I first thought
it was Erdalon doing that until I had to go and look up some stuff
online and think, oh no, it was not was I the only one
was a little confused by that. We're talking about LEAs Do as Marco fen
Ring right at this point. I, well, I wasn't confused, but
I think it might be only I am a legit fan of both of them
in separate works, and so yes, I was. I was tracking them
because one I was surprised. I was surprised that Leasi Do was in in
this movie. Frankly I did not. I didn't see it see it coming
because she wasn't in the last one. And and you know, i'd heard
that Qugh was in was in this movie, and I'm glad they saved her
for this movie. But really this, you know, for me, it
was just it was just tracking faces that I already of people that I already
liked. That's really fair, And like I said, I'm not a face
person. So yeah, let's we. I think we you're speaking of another
bit of of twisty uh face play and specific faces that have been smooth to
the point of, you know, our inability to recognize the Austin Butler is
in this movie with oh my god, no eyebrows, And I think this
was, you know, true to that sequence we were talking about just the
idea of simplifying so many things that could have been complicated. When Paul says
at their fight, Hello, cousin, Oh yeah, I'd heard that.
All of that still made sense to me. And the whole role of Austin
Butler as the sociopath who was for me in this movie an absolute high point.
I really loved Austin Butler in this movie, and I love Dave Batista
in the last movie. Dave Bautista getting bullied in this movie was a superlative
delight, so good just I would pay twice to see that. And I
want to think of the Heart Gun and Brothers, the way they just sort
of introduce, you know, fade is based like, well there's this other
factor. Yeah, but he's a sociopath. He's a psychopath. It's like,
what the question is, can we control him? And so it's that
Benny Jester at like, we're still in this for the long haul, we
were playing the long game on this. I find another fascinating, you know,
sort of complicating factor in all of this, of thinking that there's no
guarantee that Paul is the one right, that the prophecy may not be about
him. They they're still manipulating things, and knowing that Jessica is of harcone
and blood, it's like, Okay, there's clearly something in that bloodline that
they think is valuable. So yes, this lunatic that they want to figure
out if they could possibly control him, is that you know, could he
be the one? Do we want the sociopath to be the one? And
I just thought he played it so well. When you've got that whole arena
fight, I mean, yeah, Matthews said, it's like a it's a
separate little short film in the middle of everything that is that has done so
well. It shifts tone and you're just like, yeah, I'm on the
ride for this. But to then stand to have a character come in and
then hold their own amongst all these other established characters so well, and yeah,
humble debate. Did Dave Batista you know, yes, there's I love
that performance. I you know, he doesn't have the walk in syndrome,
right, I didn't see like, oh well that's just Elvis under there,
right, you know, I don't get that. It's just this is a
completely If you hadn't told me that, I probably I would have some face
blindness there. I just love that now and I loved Elvis the movie.
Yeah exactly. I'm just like, I don't see that. He just totally
buried himself in that role. And I thought it was a fabulous addition to
this cast. Go watch the first episode of Masters of the Air. He's
in that too. Extraordinary. And again, cause I didn't see this as
much in Elvis, but then because I look at Elvis in this like one
of the most beautiful men I've ever seen in my life. And the monochromatic
worked so well. And yes, I was a goth kid in the eighties
and nineties, and so his black eyes were just like ah, yeah,
okay, yeah, And when they show him in like black color one shop,
we would like see the green in his eyes. I was like,
no, no, no, I wanted to believe his eyes were black.
But you know, everything about it was so well done. And yeah,
this idea of them being cousins, you know, because remember the idea was
supposed to be that Paul if Paul was a woman, then these two would
have, you know, also been mated basically to produce what they would have
thought of as the one their cousins quite literally. And if you think that,
wow, some group trying to like make all these different This is exactly
what Queen Victoria and like a lot of the other European monarchs at the time,
we're doing of like, Okay, well, if this person marries this
person and then their kid marries this other person's kid, we'll have like all
these perfect alliances, you know. And that's part of the point is how
do we make peace between the duke and the baron. Let's get their kids
to marry. I just thought everything about it was so well done, and
you're right, it was so much simpler in the book. There's so much
about the rivalry between them, between Dave Batista and Austin Baker. I mean,
they're real get their Fade and what's what's ravon? Thank you Ravon the
beast. Uh, it's just wonderful. But there's just and again it's all
incredibly homophobic. And there's a whole long plot line about how Fade sends slave
boys to the baron, including one who has a poison needle and a part
on his thigh where the baron often touches, and it just it's all supposed
to be this like extracted lesson of the baron teaching kind of a stiff like
idea of like I'm teaching you to kill me, but you're not ready yet,
and I'm gonna yeah, but it's not necessary, and I wanted to
confuse the story, and I'm kind of glad they got rid of most of
it for this well. And then you bring up the Baron. I mean,
we were I think all enthusiasts of scars Guard's portrayal in the first movie,
and I think they've leveled him up, particularly because of his arc of
power in this movie. I bought the overall trajectory of the Emperor as being
this avatar of power all the way up to you die like a pig and
giving the death to Paul and really demonstrating that when he isn't floating with his
anti gravity bubbles, he is a slug. He is he crawls across the
floor like a slug. And I thought that was that was a really diabolical
bit of filmmaking that had me in its grip. Thoughts on portrayals of the
Baron. Oh, it was great. I just love that moment of he's
there just crawling. It's like his entire purpose, everything that's driven him is
to get to that throne and in his last moments, he's like making this
last effort, like everybody's can I can I get there? Can I just
get to there? He's right, it's like because everything else has gone around,
and you see the emperor has been pulled down over there and it's throwing,
and he's like, let me crawl up there, and it it is.
And I don't know, you know, my history as well, or
what Herbert's influences were, but you know, Matthews, you're talking about,
you know, some of the aspects of Look, I'm looking at this as
sort of like taking aspects of like Roman culture into the Harconans where you where
you have those pieces and that corruption and just absolute depravity. That's that's in
a declining empire versus you know, mid Middle Eastern cultures and playing around with
those ideas. And I think what they've done is been able to you know,
remove some of that, you know, aspect of the weaker parts of
that. As you said, let's let's get rid of that homo eroticism,
because I think that's you know, not strengthening the story. But I look
at that again as like what we can learn from history even by projecting it
whatever, eight thousand years in the future, that that certain you know,
aspects of human nature drive us to certain things, and so we will always
have a character like the Baron who is just pure greed and power and what
that does to to really dehumanize a person so that he is literally like a
slug. You know, even from the beginning when we first see him floating,
he's just got the trailing cloak. It's just like the tail. He's
he ceased to be human in any way at all. And so I think
that scars Guard I read that. Yeah, he preferred the eight hours of
makeup to the He talked about all the the digital CGI stuff they had to
do for Pirates of the Caribbean. He said, now I'll take the prosthetics
any day on that, even though it's eight hours of just to be that
present in that piece. And h yeah, there's the number of dunkings he
went through, like just the I thought that the viscosity in that as it
as the oils fall from his skin, I thought it was I mean,
it was just so so real, so real. I'm sorry, Matthew sign
And to me, there are two things I loved. One just kind of
pick aim on what you were saying, Steve. His portrayal was so good
in part because you know, you mentioned that like Herbert uses gayness as a
way of being, like, look, how to prave they are. The
other thing they use is is fatphobia, like is specifically because he is so
ginormously fat that he has these suspensers and so making him this like very weak,
frail creature, but a slug that's like tall instead of being you know,
rotund. It's another way of being like, look, we don't have
to draw upon this punching down thing to do it. But then to me,
the other thing that it hints at, which is something that is very
deep in the books, and I don't think we'll ever see on screen,
if not for a very long time, although it's all of a sudden very
relevant in the books. You know, if you notice there's never a computer
that's ever used. Oh yeah, they don't. Yes, they left all
of that out. They're not allowed to make a device that replicates the human
brain. They can't do AI, which talking about a very relevant story.
But so to have him be a person who is over the reliant on technology
is very important in this work, and I like that they it's like a
little bit of fan service, you know, in that like, but it's
not because it serves the story. But the other thing I thought was so
great about that scene is what is the most classic trope of the final confrontation
between a hero and a villain in a story about a hero. It's one
of them is that the hero has been driven by vengeance. I have to
kill the villain. I have to kill the viglain. I've beaten the villain
down the venal and is broken at my feet. I can kill them.
And you know what, I realize I'm the better person. I can walk
away. I don't need to kill them, and that's the heroic act.
And Paul has that chance and is like, nah, I'm gonna stab you
right in the f and throat. But yeah, it was just it was
like to me, and there are still people have walked out and been like,
yeah, Paul's the hero, and I'm like, no, kill the
defenseless man, like yeah, right, yeh. So I'm looking at Brian's
comments. He was talking about Rebecca Ferguson's performance because you look at the ship
from the first one to the second film, from part one to part two,
because Part one is really a lot of Paul and Jessica together, and
this one they are separated for so much of the move they each take on
their own mantle, where he's got the path that he's on and she's got
her own separate path. And the transformation her character goes through, I think
is critical and I think it's important to not overlook it because coming back to
the prophecy she's playing that, she's continuing to play that out from the South.
And I did read one article that you know, talked about her becoming
the villain of the film, and I don't I don't understand that interpretation of
that because I don't see her as being a villain. I think it is
she's the the other side of Paul right again, that neither of them are
heroic. We can understand what their rationale is for their choices. But I
thought it was a very interesting way to take that character to really show us
visually. I love what they did with makeup and costuming with her to really
embed her into that culture, into that reverend mother role. With that,
and I feel like it's possible to overlook that part, but I think it's
a critical part to the story that we can't forget to think about her role
with the Fremen down there. Well, I think you're absolutely right. I
think one of the things that strikes me is that she is she is given
actually a parallel story to Paul's, right, because she's already kind of an
outsider Bena Jesuit as Paul's mother, right, She's not really looked kindly upon.
And what we learn in this movie is that the Bena Jesuit are not
great, right they are. They see themselves as kind of the benevolent kind
of planners of the universe, but really they are manipulators, right, And
that's the whole thing when we get when we get that conversation with guyas Helen
like, of course she they've been planning this all along, and they have
plans and B plans and C plans and this is what they do. And
I think you look at lady Jessica, her arc is simply to accept the
thing that is evil in the in the hand that she was given and to
do her best with it, right, Like, I don't believe she is
a died in the wool Benajeserit mother. By the end, when she uses
the voice right on Helen. That's a very powerful moment, and I will
say as an aside, I could have used more voice. I love the
voice, and every time someone gets smacked down with the voice, I am
a very happy person. So I think that's a really interesting sort of commentary
on Jessica's arc, the fact that it really does mirror Paul's in the choices
they sort of are forced to make, well, especially because they both take
down the most powerful person in the universe from their perspective. From there,
Paul takes down the Emperor, she takes down the Mother Superior, and I
think her she has a very interesting characterization in this because for Paul, Paul
has an idealistic goal. He thinks that the oppression of the Fremen is wrong.
His father felt the same way, but his father was still in the
I can free them so that they will be good to meet, you know,
And in the book Paul is very clear about he still has that colonizer
mentality of his father, you know, I am the Duke of Tredees,
and in this most that had left out he really just wants to help the
Fremen be the Fremen, which then becomes like, then let's go take over
the galaxy, which is a whole other uh, which is you know,
his villain turn. But I think the thing is that so he has this
idealistic goal of how can we make things better? Jessica has had one goal
since the first moment she appeared on screen in Part one, protect the people
she loves and for her, I think they make it very clear she never
has a thought. I don't think she cares much one way or another about
who is actually ruling our Katie or Oracus, who is actually in control you
know what's happened to the fremin. But at some point she realizes, Okay,
at first she thinks, Okay, the best way to keep my family
safe is to keep Dukelido safe. That didn't work. The best way to
keep my son safe is to hide as much as we can. That didn't
work. Okay, I guess the best way to keep him safe is to
make him the ruler of absolutely everything. So let's do that. Yeah,
yeah, exactly right, exactly right. Yes. And I think in that
I think she is immoral and not emoral like, because I do think there's
a sense she like. I think she will murder small children in their cribs
to keep her keep her family safe. I have no doubt about that.
But I think she she has no like where's the Bena jesuit, like you
said, have a like wahaha, we're going to rule everything. I don't
think she wants to rule. I think she just wants to be safe.
But she would kill small babies in their cribs to do that. You know.
So because the Beni jesrad are very much at what cost, like a
negotiation, We're going to weigh opportunity costs for our actions, and she's at
any cost kind of person like she will protect her her family at any call.
I like that, But she has a much smaller goal than they do.
Yep. Well, right up to the moment that her son becomes the
leader of the Messiah, the leader of everything, right, then her goal,
then her goal suddenly scales up, scales up, But I don't think
it does. I think the point is that it's still it's still to keep
him safe, Yes, to keep him safe, but on such a large
stage, right, And that's what makes me I'm so interested in the in
whatever comes of the next movie, which is I think an exploration of so
many of these these topics on a very big stage, as big and beautiful
as this movie is, and it is giant and gorgeous, it is a
small stage, right, This movie is Aracus, and what's going on on
Oracus? Everybody comes to Aracus, and I guess we do have the middle
sequence, the black and white sequence, but you know, the stage on
an interstellar scale is small. I'm curious what happens when it grows. Do
we know there's gonna be a part of three? Like they? So that
is an incredible segue you've offered for us. This is what I meant by
we go the same conversation as we did in twenty twenty one, because as
we record this, there is no official green light of the next movie.
However, this movie has outperformed the first one on opening weekend by you know,
quite a bit. So this is what I got from comScore estimated Sunday
estimates. We're as of right now as we record this, domestic eighty one
million, five international ninety seven million, So right now estimates cumulative one hundred
and seventy eight million dollar movie in the box office for this weekend. That
is better than the first one. And I think it all but guarantees that
we're going to be seeing Dune Messiah now. Vinuv has said, I think
I'm really done after the third one, and in fact, I've been working
for six years on these two movies straight and I'm ready for a break from
the sun. So I think we're going to take a break and he'll probably
do something else first, but we can likely expect Dune Messiah. The way
I read this article and the way I read his comments are this finishes the
Dune contributions for me, that this tells what I believe is my complete story
of done as a director and writer. And from there, who knows what's
going to happen. But but as of you know, all the rumors and
all the actors have said, yeah, Donny calls, it's a yes.
Zandaia says, I don't really care what it is. If he calls me,
I'm gonna say yes. If it's a Messiah, right, we'll come
back. So that's great. Uh, too bad for uh guys like this
is an interesting thing only because I watched the second Aquaman movie last night.
I don't know why. I'm sorry. Well, so this this is what
I thought was interesting because in all the books Duncan, Idaho is listed as
a character like through the any other character becomes Duncan Idaho is there the whole
time? Does he come back and Misson? Well, it's I forget what
the name is. It's like it's sort of like a clone of him that
they that they have, so it's it's his character, and yes, but
it's like a clone of him that I yeah, I read it is the
only character that's like present in like a large single yeah, all the books
or whatever. Yeah, I mean, one thing I think is important to
understanding these books is that as Star as I understand Herbert and Gene Roddenberry,
like, we're very much seen as people who saw eye to eye in a
lot of ways. And so like what you're saying about, like, you
know, is he like brought back from the dead? Is he a clone
in the same way that you think about Original Star Trek. There's all these
episodes where the people believe that these are religious things happening, but our crew
knows the scientific explanation. Him coming back is seen as like, you know,
it's a messiah. They raise people from the dead, that's what you
do. But also that it's a close and so yeah, it's a it's
a thing. Okay, well, I'll buy that is a thing. And
I actually thought I think with both I think all of these anciliary kind of
support characters, right Gurnie Halleck and Duncan Idaho, I think they're They're really
fun and I think they were cast well. I think Brolin is great in
this movie. I think he's a great character to have back, and so
I'll take them, you know, if they can find a way to bring
him back for the next movie. I don't know, but I haven't.
I haven't read Messiah, so I need to. I need to actually read
this over the next four or five years to get caught up. I mean,
that's gonna be the thing about making them is the first book is now
over, like that's the story you've told. Starting with the second book,
they get a lot weirder. And there's even someone will tell you that the
original trilogy of the three movies, the three books is just a prequel to
the real book, which is Beook four. I have not read that far.
I think God Emperor of Dooman is the fourth one. I'm not sure,
but so like there's all these scenes in the book where Paul can't tell
like he's remembering conversations that he's had with his sister, and he doesn't know
if they've already happened at the time of the conversation's currently happening. As we
get to wrapping, which we need to get to wrapping up, I do
want to talk about production design, effects and direction. The movie did look
really, really good. Thoughts on the expansion are expansion of Oracus and the
fact that we get monochromatic sequences, the fact that we get worm wrestling,
and what writing a worm actually looks like. That was a thing that we
were frustrated by in that last movie that we didn't get quite enough of the
worm writing. And this one, not only is it do we get to
ride the worm? We caravan these worms right amazing. That was something that
I was I was so excited to see and the one thing that I noticed.
Maybe it's just the difference in how effects are rendered down then, but
as I recall, like David Lynch's Dune, sort of like, yeah,
they're sort of galloping along on a worm. These worms are flying along the
sand. I mean they are just I'm like, I'm a how do you
get off this? Because that's like jumping off a train traveling one hundred miles
an hour. These these worms are just cruising through the sand, and it
just created so much more excitement out of that of like, you get on
that thing and then you just go as they're cruising through that. It just
made that so much more of what I always wanted it to be and to
see. So I is so thrilled, and I love the fact that they
didn't need to like, we don't need to get into the mechanics of why
everything has to happen the way it does, and what they're doing is just
like just take it and we're gonna go with this. We're not slowing the
story down. You hook in and you hang on for your life for this
ride. It was awesome the fact that they made suspense into the actual that
first worm ride, when Paul is trying to get on the worm, it's
just sliding down the dune. I was. I was in a panic state.
I knew he would win, but I was in a sense of great
anxiety because what if he didn't, he would be buried under a thousand feet
of sand, Right, that's extraordinary. I'm sorry that buried under a worm
that would yeah, yeah, well he crashed the worm. Yeah, yeah,
first crish, then very efficient. Yeah. No, I thought it
was done so well as you said. See if it didn't it skipped all
the mechanics, which, by the way, again to modern years, sound
really cruel to these animals. Yes, so I was glad for that,
but I also thought it was is the parallels between his story and Chawnese were
so well done, and having her play the role she does without it like
I think people have you can look at this without really understanding it and see
Channy as a Pocahontas figure and you know, kind of a very racist and
I think in the book there's some truth to that. And I think so
having her be the one who helps him learn this helps teach him this.
But then when she does it at the very end, there's the suspense of
what is exactly she going to do. But I didn't have a doubt in
my mind that when she wanted to get on that worm, she was going
to get on that worm. And I just thought that was such a good
counterpoint to his story. And yeah, everything about it was so visually breathtaking.
And I and granted this is my own you know, perhaps bugaboo about
this strad filmmaking. What this showed me is I can really appreciate the absolute
beauty without needing to stare at the beauty for ten more seconds before someone else
says something. What an incredible power move that we get those ten seconds on
Shanni's face before we cut to credits. I thought that was an incredible choice
to be in a movie that is so big to end on. You know,
this extreme close up on her features as she's writing the work right or
she's jump about to jump on the work. Well, yeah, I thought,
oh, we're getting another one. I mean, that's that's all I
could take from that, because like we don't get the typical like yeah,
the Emperors that you don't have that emotional lift of like we've defeated the bad
guys and all is going to be right in the Empire and everything. It's
like, oh, there's still work to be done, there's still things that
need to be resolved, and she's got some things that she's going to work
out, and I just she's pissed. Yeah. I was like, I'm
like, I loved it, I because I've walked away from it. It
was like the end of Across the Spider Verse of like I didn't know there
was a part three coming, but the story is setting me up for that,
and I thought I was I was waiting for some type of you know,
murmuring or revolt from the audience of like what that's it, But everybody
was like fully on board with like, yeah, that's this is where we
are. I love, love that decision to deal with a film. It
was so good, and I think more than anything, it's also now why
I need someone to tell me the rest of this story, because for everything
else, like I know what happens when the Friend and Warriors go out into
the rest of the galaxy, because there's a whole series of the books that
tells you exactly what happens, but this is this is totally off the book,
so nobody has any idea what she does right like, and so it's
like, you gotta give me that story as well as I would. Just
there's a humor that I've had to praise this person incredibly without knowing how to
say their name. I don't know if it's Zendaya or Zandaia, but either
one. I think at this point she is solidly my my favorite and I
think just the best actress of her generation. Because it's just to watch her
in this versus watch her be both the best girl next door but also the
utter breaking of the trope of the girl next door in the Spider Man movies
to being every troubled teenager who either was or knew in as a teenager in
Euphoria, Like just the incredible range of these characters and all being portrayed so
perfectly as well as like, I know these movies are not often going to
get the acting nominations, but I think I think if she does not get
an acting nomination in this, I will be very upset because I think she
was just so good and you could show just those ten seconds on her face
as her clip to like, here's why it's right right? You know she's
she's made some interesting swing is I as a dad of a children of a
certain age, I celebrate her earlier work on Step It Up on the Disney
Channel. I've watched every single episode of that, and so I also know
she can dance. Let's just say that she can. She can, but
does she leave her friends behind? All? Right? Did you guys catch
the little I'm assuming it's a little nod to David Lynch a little for lack
of a better term, Lynchy and easter egg. What was wuld you say?
I'm thinking of the disposal of the baron's corpse in the desert and the
ants crawling on the air. Oh yeah, right, problematic for one of
our regular little blue velvet there. Yes, exactly. That was very good.
That was a nice nod. Yeah, I thought, I mean,
there were there were a lot of really clever choices in terms of, you
know, portraying these things on screen. The harvesting of water from the body
I thought was really interesting and horrifying and beautiful at the same time. I
thought it was lovely. And you know, we have not said the words
yet. I will be the first to do it here at an hour and
ten minutes. Charle May Timothy shallow May as Paul. I think he levels
he levels up in this movie. And I think it's really interesting to see
how quickly he's able to go from that sort of sullen character to this character
who's who embodies that major kind of transformation of identity and ego through the course
of this movie, because in the span of time that we get with them
on screen, it's over the course of you know, five and a half
hours or something. But over the space of his time in the movie,
we get to actually see him grow and I didn't. I didn't. I'm
not sure I expected that. I see. I've always thought of Timothy Shallamey
as a certain kind of actor that I knew what I was getting with him,
and this second movie, I feel like I got a little bit of
a different Challa may. Yeah, I would agree with that. I think
he was. You saw how much he had changed and and and how much.
There was never amount where I doubted how much he was struggling against this
and that he didn't want this, but that he did come to accept it.
Yeah, there's there's a big transformation from being the I'm the confused teenager
trying to figure out my place in the world too. I'm stepping up and
asserting myself and in sending the power and that leap and for me to buy
that, because that was one of my concerns when I heard he'd been cast,
I'm like, Okay, yeah, I can get the young Paul of
like, I don't know if I'm the Messiah or not. But then to
play that strength and to that because he's not a physically imposing you know,
man, he's you know, little Timothy Schaalomy. You can you know,
Dave Batista could just you know, have him like a twig. But he
was able to convey some of that strength in that final scene. Again that
I was I was impressed by that of like, do I buy him as
somebody that can rally people around him, that can be that strong leader,
And he was able to get there. So I give him a tremendous credit
for that. Yeah, I mean, some of the speeches he gives are
just especially because the scene in the council with a Fremen where there's this idea
of he has to if he wants to speak on behalf of his particular group,
he has to kill Stilgar to take his role, and he basically comes
in and in many ways, this is the most messianic moment I think,
and it is one that is very is very recognizable to Christians. But I
think also is because again Christianity is the only one of these three where is
fully accepted that the Messiah has happened already. But I understand that there's a
lot of predictions in certainly Judies and brasci and Islam of that this is the
kind of thing the Messiah will do. He comes in and is like,
all of it's the the line that I was thinking of from from Christianity is
the aret is the law made to serve man? Or is man made to
serve the law. And because what he comes in and says is like,
yeah, all these traditions we have, but think about the goal is to
make this as strong as possible. Still, Gar is officially my leader.
But if you say that for me to speak, I have to kill him.
He is my right hand. I can't do this without him. Why
would I do this? And he fundamentally tells them that they have to change
the way they've always been doing it, and he gets them to agree with
it, and that is an incredibly messianic act. And it's again framed as
a like they they're doing this because people have told them they should, that
they should do this. When he comes along, right right, and the
fact that he like he's making I think in some ways that's the only point,
that's the point of his that I probably most agree with, that he
should have to kill s Noilgar. And so it's just so perfectly done that
it's done in that way. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Well, I
you know, I think as we again, I'll try again as we can
to wrapping this up. I think, I think we have a lot to
appreciate in this second Venuve outing across the dunes, and I really really look
forward to hearing how how we rate it. When we jump to Letterboxed,
we're on Letterboxed the True Story FM's family of film podcasts. They're all part
of the Next Reel's HQ page letterbox dot Com slash the Next Reel, and
we are going to throw some stars at it and see where they stick.
Steve, you want to go first? Yeah, I'm gonna give it a
solid four and a half. I very rarely, if ever, give out
five on a first watch of a movie, but so I'm going to give
this the solid four and a half. And I really want to even though
I watch them like twelve hours apart, I think watching them together again,
back to back and really looking at it the whole story now that I know
where things go, to look at the interplay across too. I'm really looking
forward to viewing this is one story because really, you know, this is
the thing I tell people. I'm going to tell people about this movie,
like, what did I think about it like, this isn't entertainment. This
is storytelling. This is this is the translation of a story from a printed
book to a visual format. And so it's really an amazing story, very
well told. This isn't you know, entertainment. This is top notch storytelling
in all aspects of the visual medium. So four and a half and a
big old heart from me. Oh four and a half an a heart,
okay, Matthew. So I'm not really a letterbox person. I probably should
become. So I think probably I'm also at four and a half, maybe
even like four point nine, if that's the thing, because it is so
close to being there. I wanted the eyes to be bluer. I don't
want to. I mean, there were a couple of like legit critiques we
had with it, but like to me, is three things all at the
same time. It is one just beautiful movie and a fantastic example of movie
making, and a wonderfully told story. It is too a very good,
like as you said, a very relevant story that does what I think is
that like what I think religion should do and what I think good art should
do. It raises difficult questions without giving easy answers, and so it forces
the person experience to get to really think and have conversations like this. And
lastly, I think it's a masterclass in how to adapt a book for screen.
Yes, and particularly and then I think it did something that I think
is one of the hardest things to do, which is to take a work
where the here, where the protagonist is not a hero, and put it
on screen. Because again, look at David lynn David Lynch is great,
it's a really fun movie, but you are rooting for Paula Trads. And
to me, that was kind of the thing I had in my head is
if I end the movie rooting for Paula Trades, then it is not accurate
to the book. And I absolutely did. I saw this tragic and I
thought that was so. Yeah, I would say this is four point five
beating to five and going back to what I said for the first one,
now that I want to watch them both together, just in one sitting,
probably with some bathroom break because I'm getting old, but I want to watch
the two of them together, and then I would probably give it like I
think, the whole thing to me is a four four point five with the
original being like a three to three point five. Wow. I mean,
you guys are praising the movie, and I'm still shocked at how low your
reviews are. Your ratings are my goodness, well you know five. I
am no, it's out of five. But I don't do half stars,
and so I have no choice. The universe has proclaimed that I must give
this a five. Uh, and it is and I gave the last one
of five. I really felt very very strongly about it. And I think
as a visual exploration of what you can do with the tools and a reminder
of just how wonderful it be to really see the integration of practical and CG
effects at used at their very best. I think this is This is as
modern and sort of future looking as it is a throwback. And I love,
I love what they were able to do with it. My quibbles are
so small. My quibbles are why didn't they keep Momoa so he wouldn't go
make Aquaman? Like, I don't know, I probably should just give it
a five. I mean I did say, like, I think it's absolutely
We've got a long year ahead. But if this doesn't win this picture,
I'll be amazed, because just in terms of advancing the art of movie making
in a way. You know, I think film classes are going to talk
about this movie for years, certainly more than whatever wins, because I firmly
believe this movie is good enough that it won't win. Then it will be
talked about much more than whatever does win. I really think. So,
I hope, So, I hope so. I think Danny Vin is he
is now. I mean if he wasn't already, I mean he was,
but he is. He's a director. I'll see just everything that he does,
the name drops, and I'll see it really really great. Thank you
both for coming and hanging out on this fair conversation. Spicy spicy Steve Sarmento.
Always great to see you and hear you talk about movies and and Matthew
the Ethical Panda. Great see, and you are just crushing your other podcasts.
Here a true story, I mean daily daily episodes right now. Oh
my goodness. I will say the fact that eight episodes of Avatar The Last
Airbender and three episodes of Star Wars The Bad Batch were released within thirty six
hours of each other. I had a lot of caffeine. Yeah, he
did. You're doing you as I said, You're doing the Lord's work here
in podcast world. Thank you, we really push the shows are great and
check them out over at you just go to the Ethical Panda dot com.
It'll jump you right over to the landing page for Star Wars Generations and the
Superhero Ethics podcast, which Matthew helps. So thank you everybody for downloading and
listen to this show. We appreciate your time and attention. We will be
back next month in some crazy mixed up universe that no one would ever possibly
see coming. We're doing Alex Carland's Civil War. So okay, gird your
loins everybody. Texas and California are uniting. Until then, meeting adjourned Hondo.
Stay classy, Iracus