WEBVTT 1 00:00:09.039 --> 00:00:12.759 Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. As you probably can 2 00:00:12.800 --> 00:00:16.559 imagine, I'm a huge fan of Dune and I really enjoyed Dune Part two, 3 00:00:16.679 --> 00:00:19.440 the movie that just came out, and all the questions that raises about 4 00:00:19.480 --> 00:00:22.760 religion and politics. These are things I'm going to be questioning a lot and 5 00:00:22.800 --> 00:00:26.679 talking about on my own episodes coming up. But recently I was invited to 6 00:00:26.679 --> 00:00:30.440 be a guest on an episode of the film Board, a podcast that's part 7 00:00:30.440 --> 00:00:33.640 of the same True Story FM network that I'm part of, where we talked 8 00:00:33.640 --> 00:00:37.920 about Dune Part two. I'm having some computer problems right now, so I'm 9 00:00:37.960 --> 00:00:41.560 going to be rebroadcasting that episode for you right now. There's a lot of 10 00:00:41.560 --> 00:00:44.039 great stuff to listen to that I hope you enjoy. I got to be 11 00:00:44.359 --> 00:00:47.679 talking with some other wonderful people who are hopefully could be guests on this podcast. 12 00:00:48.119 --> 00:00:51.039 I will be doing my own content on Dune Part two coming soon, 13 00:00:51.200 --> 00:00:55.359 but for now, please enjoy this episode. Please subscribe to the film Board 14 00:00:55.399 --> 00:00:57.960 and some of the other great things that True STORYFM is doing. Of course, 15 00:00:58.000 --> 00:01:00.000 please look into being a member. Let us know what you think. 16 00:01:00.280 --> 00:01:03.719 All the ways to contacts from the show notes and most importantly, we have 17 00:01:03.799 --> 00:01:17.159 spoken in the year of the Imperium's grace. On the cusp of yet another 18 00:01:17.239 --> 00:01:22.680 turning of the cosmic wheel, the film board gathers beneath the twin moons of 19 00:01:22.719 --> 00:01:27.560 discourse and reflection, a sandworm of colossal narrative has surfaced from the sands of 20 00:01:27.599 --> 00:01:34.280 imagination, a creation that weaves the very fabric visual storytelling into a tapestry rich 21 00:01:34.319 --> 00:01:40.599 with the hues of a Racus itself. We acolytes of screen and scholars of 22 00:01:40.640 --> 00:01:46.560 saga explore the dunes and sieches of Deni v Neuv's vision, where the ancient 23 00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:53.480 prophecies of Frank Herbert's words have found new life amidst the stars. This is 24 00:01:53.599 --> 00:02:01.200 done part two. It's breathtaking when you see sand here. Imagine water. 25 00:02:01.719 --> 00:02:06.519 If you dive in, you can't reach the bottle you dive in. Yes, 26 00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:14.280 it's cult swimming, don't I don't believe you. In the shadows of 27 00:02:14.319 --> 00:02:23.560 Aracus lie many secrets, But the darkest of them all may remain the end 28 00:02:23.639 --> 00:02:32.159 of House, the treaties your father didn't believe in revenge? What if paula 29 00:02:32.240 --> 00:02:55.240 treaties were still alive? Have you ever had a dream about your first ride 30 00:02:55.319 --> 00:03:01.120 that I didn't prison anyone. Mm hmm, you're brief. We all know 31 00:03:01.360 --> 00:03:16.639 that be simple, be direct, nothing frenzy. I understand we are the 32 00:03:16.680 --> 00:03:23.280 chroniclers of this Dooney epic. Let the conversation begin as timeless as Shai Hulud's 33 00:03:23.439 --> 00:03:27.439 endless journey through the deep sands. I am beate right and bring you the 34 00:03:27.479 --> 00:03:34.719 conclave with film borders. Now, baron Steve Sarmento, I will make him 35 00:03:34.759 --> 00:03:43.120 spicy, and Mahdi Matthew Fox. Look anytimes in DAYA gets a white boy 36 00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:49.840 to eat spicy food, I'm in for it. So I will say that 37 00:03:49.960 --> 00:03:53.319 this was supposed to be a stacked film board. But I don't know if 38 00:03:53.319 --> 00:03:57.400 you've heard. There's a thing going around called the Sick and our Own sandwriter 39 00:03:57.560 --> 00:04:03.599 Kyle Olson and Gaias Tommy Mets the Third about out literally just minutes before the 40 00:04:03.599 --> 00:04:08.879 show. They're they're very ill. So we raise our glass of spit water 41 00:04:09.719 --> 00:04:15.000 to them as we as we move into this. This was a really interesting 42 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:17.560 thing as we as we set up this conversation because Steve, you posted today 43 00:04:17.560 --> 00:04:24.360 in Discord that as it happened the last time uh a Dune movie came out. 44 00:04:24.720 --> 00:04:29.879 It was Us plus Ocean talking about that that movie, so we had 45 00:04:29.920 --> 00:04:35.879 the opportunity to hear past selves discuss what we wanted in today's movie, which 46 00:04:36.079 --> 00:04:41.079 was a little bit bunkers. I feel like the Ghost of Christmas future. 47 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:46.160 Yes, do you want to? Do you want to? Open with a 48 00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:50.000 bit of a reflection about what we said. Knowing that it was two parts, 49 00:04:50.040 --> 00:04:54.319 there was a lot of speculation about what part two would hold. And 50 00:04:54.360 --> 00:04:59.199 what was very interesting was we were recording this shortly after release, so they 51 00:04:59.199 --> 00:05:02.160 hadn't even locked in for sure that there was a part two. They hadn't 52 00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:05.759 officially announced that. So we're like, we sure hope we get this part 53 00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:10.720 two, and this is what we sure hope to see. And I, 54 00:05:11.519 --> 00:05:15.279 you know, wondered if part two was going to impact my you know, 55 00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:20.879 review of part one after seeing part two. So I did rewatch part one, 56 00:05:21.800 --> 00:05:27.120 you know last night you know part two? Or yes, well I 57 00:05:27.160 --> 00:05:30.319 watched part whichever day this is recording prior to watching part two. I watched 58 00:05:30.399 --> 00:05:35.079 Part one like twelve hours prior, so it's all fresh in my mind. 59 00:05:35.439 --> 00:05:41.000 But and that had been the first time I'd watched Dune Part one since we 60 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:46.519 talked about it you long ago in twenty twenty one. I believe it was. 61 00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:50.399 But it was so pleasant to get back in the groove of the sand, 62 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:57.120 in the grit, in the in the the desert. But listening to 63 00:05:57.120 --> 00:06:00.120 that conversation again reminded me so much of what I loved about the first one 64 00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:05.759 and really prime me for this conversation of what we were going to dig into 65 00:06:05.800 --> 00:06:11.120 this time. Is part two takes it into a different direction. Yeah, 66 00:06:11.240 --> 00:06:15.680 I really find it fascinating that we are that we're having I think, this 67 00:06:15.759 --> 00:06:20.399 conversation about that movie, and you know, spoiler alert, We're gonna have 68 00:06:20.480 --> 00:06:28.000 the same conversation about Doune Part three at the end of this. So you 69 00:06:28.040 --> 00:06:30.480 know, I think I listened to it too, and I think what's so 70 00:06:30.519 --> 00:06:32.480 fascinating about is just how well it held up and how split we were. 71 00:06:33.079 --> 00:06:36.720 I think two of us I believe Matthew, you were in the crew of 72 00:06:36.920 --> 00:06:41.560 Yeah. I can't think about this as a single movie. I have to 73 00:06:41.600 --> 00:06:46.240 think about this after I have seen part two. So I tossed to you 74 00:06:46.759 --> 00:06:50.040 does it hold up as a single movie? It absolutely does, And I 75 00:06:50.040 --> 00:06:58.480 think primarily because it holds up as an adaptation of the book, and we'll 76 00:06:58.519 --> 00:07:00.439 get more into this, but I are there are two kind of things I 77 00:07:00.439 --> 00:07:06.319 want to say about this. The book is very dry and very like it's 78 00:07:06.399 --> 00:07:11.959 not aged well in a lot of ways. If you think the homoticism of 79 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:15.680 the Harconins is a little over the top, oh boy, it's so much 80 00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:18.720 worse than the movies. And not that homotism is bad, but homoticism equals 81 00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:21.120 bad guy as bad as what I'm saying, so much worse in the book. 82 00:07:21.160 --> 00:07:27.079 Yeah, But you know, I think the fundamental idea here is do 83 00:07:27.160 --> 00:07:30.720 you think Paul is a hero? Because if you read the book or watch 84 00:07:30.759 --> 00:07:33.199 the movie and think Paul is a hero, you've come away with the wrong 85 00:07:33.240 --> 00:07:38.360 idea. And for example, Ineen in the David Lynch version, which is 86 00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:42.480 a great fun movie, but Paul is very much the hero and the book 87 00:07:42.519 --> 00:07:45.319 is very much a critique of that, and it's meant to be that. 88 00:07:45.480 --> 00:07:48.199 And I was really nervous in the first part. I was like, are 89 00:07:48.240 --> 00:07:53.720 they meaning it to be the critique that the book is? And I think 90 00:07:53.759 --> 00:07:56.360 the movie did a very good job of doing that. I think there's one 91 00:07:56.360 --> 00:08:00.759 major change they did which I think actually should be an object lesson in how 92 00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:07.040 to adapt things from book to movie that we'll talk about to help make the 93 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:11.800 point that the protagonist is not the hero. But yeah, overall, I 94 00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:13.720 was very pleased. This was very much the movie that I wanted it to 95 00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:18.639 be. Oh, I'm so glad. I'm so glad because I have heard 96 00:08:18.680 --> 00:08:26.480 criticism about the adaptation because I think in this movie there are more changes than 97 00:08:26.519 --> 00:08:30.959 there were in the first movie adaptation, and I need some help. I 98 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:33.879 know, Matthew, you've been reading the book. And Steve, when did 99 00:08:33.960 --> 00:08:37.799 you say the last time was you read the book. I've read it. 100 00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:41.200 So I read the first half prior to Dune Part one, and then finished 101 00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:45.240 the second half shortly thereafter. So it's been a couple of years, but 102 00:08:45.279 --> 00:08:48.039 it's still fresh enough to really because as I watched, to say, wait 103 00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:52.720 a second, this isn't Yeah, they've they made things that I fully expected 104 00:08:52.759 --> 00:08:56.159 that we're just not in the second half of the movie. I think one 105 00:08:56.159 --> 00:08:58.600 of the things that is that is interesting about this one is it's it's a 106 00:08:58.600 --> 00:09:05.240 little bit of the season five ish of Breaking Bad, because we we actually 107 00:09:05.320 --> 00:09:09.879 get the turn of our protagonist into the into I think ultimately the antagonist. 108 00:09:09.240 --> 00:09:13.799 And I'm curious to see how that conversation goes. This is the story. 109 00:09:13.960 --> 00:09:18.200 I mean, it picks up straight away from the first movie, and he 110 00:09:18.320 --> 00:09:22.879 has just had his heroic fight in the sand, and they're now wrapping up 111 00:09:22.879 --> 00:09:31.600 the body of Jazz Mirror Jim Jim Seers James Jamis and he made it way 112 00:09:31.639 --> 00:09:33.799 too hard. Uh. And they're wrapping him up to take his water, 113 00:09:33.879 --> 00:09:39.720 and they're going off to their seat and uh and picking it up right there. 114 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:43.759 And it really does, I think, pretty quickly become much more of 115 00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:46.759 a Chawny movie. And I think that was a big problem we had with 116 00:09:46.799 --> 00:09:52.200 the first one too, that that Channi was a vision. Channy was a 117 00:09:52.279 --> 00:09:56.080 dream. Johnny was Zendaya with not a lot to do, and this movie, 118 00:09:56.440 --> 00:10:01.600 Zendaia has a lot to do. Uh. And and I think centering 119 00:10:01.639 --> 00:10:05.200 this second half of the movie with the Fremen makes makes for a much more 120 00:10:05.240 --> 00:10:09.919 interesting, plot driven story that I think was looser in the first one. 121 00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:13.840 Fair assessment. Yeah, And I can I give my theory here about the 122 00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:18.679 way what I meant about the changes that I think actually make it more true. 123 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:22.320 It's gonna be, as I said in the book, because you're getting 124 00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:28.000 so many people's point of views. I think it's easier to read the idea 125 00:10:28.600 --> 00:10:31.960 that Paul is wrong, that Paul is becoming locked in more and more to 126 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:37.399 this religious fanaticism, that the men a Jesuit are really problematic and is propaganda 127 00:10:37.399 --> 00:10:41.039 and all that kind of stuff. I think that's very hard to show on 128 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:45.799 screen. And so when I think this movie did is it said, we're 129 00:10:45.799 --> 00:10:50.279 going to make one major change that will actually allow it to be truer to 130 00:10:50.360 --> 00:10:52.919 the spirit of the book, which is that I think they realize that on 131 00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:58.240 screen you need to have a protagonist to root for. And I wass thinking 132 00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:03.039 about this because so like an interview is with Martin Scorsese talking about that he 133 00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:07.399 made with Copla. I'm sorry, but they were deeply surprised that people were 134 00:11:07.480 --> 00:11:11.120 rooting for the Corleones, you know that, like this was supposed to be 135 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:16.159 moving with bad people. The big change they make is that in the book, 136 00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:20.600 Chawnny is totally supportive of him, whereas in the movie, she's the 137 00:11:20.600 --> 00:11:24.679 one who sees that he's going down this messionic path, and that's really problematic. 138 00:11:24.039 --> 00:11:26.840 That he's an outsider, that he's a colonizer, that he is, 139 00:11:28.159 --> 00:11:33.000 that his ben a jestered mother has like seated all this, and I think 140 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:37.039 by giving that to us, it gives us in the audience someone to root 141 00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:41.679 for that we need on screen in a way we don't need on the page, 142 00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:43.440 and thus allows us to be again because I think if she is just 143 00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:48.480 as supportive of him, we might walk away being like, oh, I 144 00:11:48.759 --> 00:11:52.159 guess Paul's the protagonists. We're supposed to root for him without realizing the whole 145 00:11:52.159 --> 00:11:54.840 movie is supposed to be about why he's not, why he's not the hero. 146 00:11:56.600 --> 00:11:58.879 That's a really interesting take. I didn't expect you to go that direction. 147 00:12:00.159 --> 00:12:07.159 For me, I think the twist was just how much is spent giving 148 00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:15.440 Paul the opportunity to say, I'm not going south. If I go south, 149 00:12:15.559 --> 00:12:20.440 bad things happen. I know bad things will happen if I follow this 150 00:12:20.600 --> 00:12:24.360 path, and everyone else keeps telling him he has to go south. I 151 00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:30.960 think the piece that was really I thought beautiful to me in this sort of 152 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:35.720 the third act was him accepting the fact that he really didn't have a choice. 153 00:12:35.799 --> 00:12:39.200 He had to go. He had to pick up this mantle, and 154 00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:45.600 critically he knew it. He knew when he had to make that choice, 155 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:48.399 he knew when he had to ask for to tell Florence Pugh that she would 156 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:52.720 be his bride. He knew all those things were wrong because they set it 157 00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:56.320 up in the first two acts of the movie. Right. They set it 158 00:12:56.399 --> 00:12:58.440 up when he was wandering the desert, and by the time he gets it 159 00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:05.960 and makes that turn and sets the Holy Wars ablaze, we realize that he's 160 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:09.919 Heisenberg. Does that? I mean, is that a fair assessment too? 161 00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:13.879 I want to make sure I didn't read something Bunkers into the movie. No, 162 00:13:13.919 --> 00:13:16.399 I think that's very true. I think it's that, and that's also 163 00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:18.879 directly driven from the book, the whole going south thing, not as much 164 00:13:18.879 --> 00:13:24.440 but him seeing the trap and resisting it. I think what's different in the 165 00:13:24.440 --> 00:13:28.360 book is in the movie is that Shawnnie is able to step back and say, 166 00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:31.799 you only need to do You are falling into a trap, but it's 167 00:13:31.879 --> 00:13:35.200 one that your mother and her people made, right. Yeah, And that 168 00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:39.320 I want to destroy the whole trap instead of you choosing to fall into it. 169 00:13:39.919 --> 00:13:43.440 Yeah. Right. They gave her a new sense of agency that I 170 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:48.480 don't think she had in the book. Right. No, they Yeah, 171 00:13:48.519 --> 00:13:52.159 they pretty much sideline her in the book to be like, now you're a 172 00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:56.120 mom. I mean, that was one of the big the big changes is 173 00:13:56.120 --> 00:13:58.799 like let's just sideline her basically, that's saddle her with a kid, and 174 00:13:58.799 --> 00:14:01.879 that it's just gonna you know, it really takes right whereas you know, 175 00:14:01.960 --> 00:14:09.000 by shortening that time frame, by not playing that that aspect of that latter 176 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:13.279 part of the book out, it really keeps things tight and tense between Paul 177 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:16.320 and Chohanny, and we get that dynamic tension going on, but that the 178 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:22.240 solely builds I mean and even to some some comic effect, right because at 179 00:14:22.360 --> 00:14:26.320 least in my theater, there's there there was a sort of a rumbling chuckle 180 00:14:26.840 --> 00:14:30.799 in that moment where it's oh, you know, he's like, no, 181 00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:33.279 I'm not the guy. See he's so humble, He's not he says he's 182 00:14:33.320 --> 00:14:37.399 not the guy. So he's clearly the guy. And everybody just sort of 183 00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:39.240 like laughs, becuse it's like, yeah, we're getting into this, you 184 00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:45.559 know, really kind of uncomfortable thing of like the fanaticism that they will drive 185 00:14:45.639 --> 00:14:50.600 people to see the things that they want to see and those things so it 186 00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:54.879 really leans leans into that whole the prophecy piece and and everything and going back 187 00:14:54.919 --> 00:14:58.080 to you know, our reviews of you Know Part one, Matthew, that 188 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:01.399 was one of the things you really wanted to see the story dig into more 189 00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:05.960 was that whole aspect. And I think Channi comes right out and says it 190 00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:09.879 in this one of like, yeah, they you know, they're they're they're 191 00:15:09.879 --> 00:15:13.840 manipulating us. The way to control people is to tell them a prophecy, 192 00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:16.200 right, and then and then have that come true. It's like this this 193 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:20.840 great thing. So we just see that really explicitly, you know, played 194 00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:24.200 out for us in this film. So right, Yeah, I mean to 195 00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:26.159 kind of tire the two things we're saying Pete together because I think they fit 196 00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:31.080 very well. I think you're right that we are that we are supposed to 197 00:15:31.120 --> 00:15:35.600 believe that Paul believes he absolutely has to do this, and I think what 198 00:15:35.720 --> 00:15:39.039 the book makes clear, but it would be harder to do on screen, 199 00:15:39.279 --> 00:15:45.519 and so they use Chawni is Chawni is the one who can see that whether 200 00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:48.480 or not he has to, he's still wrong to do it, because I 201 00:15:48.519 --> 00:15:52.559 think without Chawnie the audience might walk out thinking, Wow, Paul was such 202 00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:56.399 a brave hero, willing to accept the thing he had to do for the 203 00:15:56.519 --> 00:16:00.960 right thing, and that's so not the point. Yeah, but I think 204 00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:04.840 without Shawny it'll be harder to see that. Absolutely. I will also say, 205 00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:10.799 Steve, when you talked about the Chucklan, my audience was when it 206 00:16:10.840 --> 00:16:12.519 created, there's so much politics. It's not a lot. I don't think 207 00:16:12.519 --> 00:16:15.080 it's gonna be a classic love triangle, which I'm glad for because it's much 208 00:16:15.080 --> 00:16:19.519 more about politics. But the chuckl in my audience was when you know, 209 00:16:19.639 --> 00:16:22.720 SHAWNI is there with him and Paul says, oh, and by the way, 210 00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:26.159 Emperor, I'm going to marry your daughter, and they cut to a 211 00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:30.000 look on Channie's face and I was like, Oh, that's that's herring euportia 212 00:16:30.200 --> 00:16:41.639 right there, that's that's that's the one that's fair. That's fair. I 213 00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:45.240 could see a little euphoria. Yeah, they did drip it in. I 214 00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:51.519 want to dig in a little bit on the messianic pieces of this, because 215 00:16:51.559 --> 00:16:53.639 here I have, I mean, here we are, and you both as 216 00:16:53.799 --> 00:16:59.960 as students of scripture, I'm really curious your take on how the book, 217 00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:06.759 how the movie handled this beyond what we're talking about with Paul's specific turn, 218 00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:14.400 but how the movie handles the general I would say cultural aesthetic of the Messiah 219 00:17:14.759 --> 00:17:23.160 story, because it feels like twenty twenty four's Messiah story is different than Herbert's. 220 00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:27.000 Is that fair well? I think there's two important thing. One is 221 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:32.640 that I think for many of us, when we hear the word Messiah, 222 00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:37.920 we think Christianity and Jesus Christ. And it's important to understand that all three 223 00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:41.680 of the Abrahamic religions, to some extent or another, have a very strong 224 00:17:41.720 --> 00:17:45.759 idea of Messiah. And in Judaism a lot of Jewish people have moved away 225 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:49.640 from it, some sects of Judaism still very much believe that Messiah hasn't come 226 00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:53.559 but will come eventually. And Islam also has a very strong idea of Asiah. 227 00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:59.079 And so I do think that in many ways Herbert was making this more 228 00:17:59.079 --> 00:18:02.599 about Islamic ideas of Messiah, I think Christian ones, so to the point 229 00:18:02.599 --> 00:18:06.319 where I mean there's a lot of like the words are directly taken from Arabic 230 00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:10.400 and from them like here we talk about Crusade in the book at Jihad. 231 00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:14.759 I think Herbert was a lot more revolutionary in the nineteen sixties to be as 232 00:18:14.839 --> 00:18:22.400 critical of organized religion and Aberhamic faiths and prophecy and prophecy of a way of 233 00:18:22.599 --> 00:18:27.599 outsiders to mobilize indigenous people. I think today as a culture we are much 234 00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:33.000 more on that side, But I'm not It felt fairly true to the adaptation 235 00:18:33.079 --> 00:18:34.759 of it in this well to the point that I mean, I think you 236 00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:38.640 may have made the point I didn't. I didn't think I was about to 237 00:18:38.680 --> 00:18:42.119 make, but wanted to, which is that Herbert was ahead of his time 238 00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:49.519 enough that when we see a movie that so overtly points out areas to be 239 00:18:49.640 --> 00:18:56.240 critical about, you know, profits about prophecy of outsider coming in to rally 240 00:18:56.279 --> 00:19:03.799 the people, and have so many characters who are so overtly using that the 241 00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:10.200 tools of propaganda to you know, to demonstrate the power of mobilizing people, 242 00:19:11.319 --> 00:19:17.680 I think that's maybe maybe Herbert was writing twenty twenty four's Massiah Complex all along 243 00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:22.960 well. As I said on the discussion of part one, I really believe 244 00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:26.880 art has a way of speaking its truth into the world and reflecting the truth 245 00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:30.559 that is in the world of why do certain movies get made at certain times, 246 00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:36.880 and looking at what this film might have to say about religious fanaticism or 247 00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:41.559 people buying into specific beliefs because we do have this. What I find interesting 248 00:19:41.799 --> 00:19:48.839 is when we have that moment with the water of life, when it's the 249 00:19:48.440 --> 00:19:52.359 when Paul's mother is going in for that ritual and we've got Chany saying, 250 00:19:52.359 --> 00:19:55.839 oh, well, the people of the north like this is you know, 251 00:19:56.240 --> 00:19:59.240 this is just she's poisoning herself. But the people in the South are You're 252 00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:03.079 more like fundamental, like diehird religious ones, and it's like, hey, 253 00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:06.680 we're praying over here, quit you're joking around. It's that that skis in 254 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:10.240 between the two between the North and the South of aspects of any culture, 255 00:20:10.279 --> 00:20:14.799 where you'll have that separation of those that are perhaps you know more in the 256 00:20:14.839 --> 00:20:18.400 contemporary culture where there is you know, you have to be part of the 257 00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:22.200 world, you have to be part of a global economy, versus those that 258 00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:27.160 are fundamental in the South, where there there is nobody else living there, 259 00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:30.359 Right, That's why the Harconas don't go down there. They're like it's inhabitable. 260 00:20:30.440 --> 00:20:34.440 That's where the fundamentalists are. They have separated themselves out and built their 261 00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:38.839 own little kind of separate from any other influence. And to look at what 262 00:20:38.920 --> 00:20:42.759 that says about how cultures behave the interaction between the two of the role that 263 00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:48.680 this messianic character plays. You know, do we really unify these things? 264 00:20:48.599 --> 00:20:52.920 You know, I think what what Herbert did with with this whole thing of 265 00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:57.359 bringing in the marriage with the you know and you know, the empire and 266 00:20:57.400 --> 00:21:02.359 all of that. In casting Chinese, it's really you know, I don't 267 00:21:02.359 --> 00:21:04.160 know how you can see Paul as the hero, but you see him as 268 00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:07.240 like the dude that's got to do what he has to do for political reasons, 269 00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:10.799 right, I mean, that's you think it's this love story. It's 270 00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:12.599 like, no, he's doing what he feels that he needs to do to 271 00:21:12.640 --> 00:21:18.799 fulfill his father's vision. Right of it's all about the power. So I 272 00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:25.680 think the interplay between those aspects of political power and leveraging people of faith and 273 00:21:25.720 --> 00:21:30.400 all that is very much still accurate and alive in America today. Yeah. 274 00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:33.319 I think it's such a good point. And I one thing I really love 275 00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:36.920 aout what you're just saying then, Steve, is that it shows us that 276 00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:41.799 the Fremen are not a you know, monovocal culture who are all the same. 277 00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:45.119 And I'll feel the same. I think a lot of the certainly the 278 00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:48.440 David Lynch portrayal of them. But also just often the way in either movies 279 00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:52.799 or in real life that we often look at cultures that we think of as 280 00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:56.359 other, as exotic, as different, and often that means indigenous, is 281 00:21:56.359 --> 00:22:00.000 that they all feel the same way. And so seeing these different parts of 282 00:22:00.039 --> 00:22:04.160 the not just that Zda is a is an outcast, but that yeah, 283 00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:07.680 and part part of generational that a lot of young people are just like, 284 00:22:07.720 --> 00:22:11.319 eh, that's that's granddad with this religion. But also it's different regions have 285 00:22:11.400 --> 00:22:15.279 very different feelings on this. That's interesting because I think the movie actually does 286 00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:19.279 a really good job of demonstrating exactly what you both are talking about with the 287 00:22:19.480 --> 00:22:25.319 with the experience of the Fremenu, the hearken and are the monolithic bad guy. 288 00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:27.279 They're the Emperor Empire, right. I mean, I don't get a 289 00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:32.880 sense that they're anything but a monoculture of politically movie. I mean, they're 290 00:22:32.920 --> 00:22:37.359 quite literally monochromatic exactly, They're mono exactly. Do you know what they have 291 00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:44.759 though? That is the best They have the best fireworks rights in the sky. 292 00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:52.039 That was extraordinary. I loved it. I will say it's in the 293 00:22:52.119 --> 00:22:56.559 interesting I think to decide how many movies this series is going to be because 294 00:22:56.559 --> 00:23:00.000 I would actually say that this is a part two takes place in two parts, 295 00:23:00.039 --> 00:23:04.160 its interrupted by a short movie in the middle called Let's Meet the Knob 296 00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:11.680 Baron, which is a black and white movie. Yes, And I thought 297 00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:15.920 though that making it monok like the filmmaking whenever they explain it that there's a 298 00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:21.240 black sun, which if there are any physicists out there, astrophysicists, this 299 00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:23.480 sounds like pure nonsense. And it's not in the book as far as I 300 00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:26.920 can tell. He's not in the first book. It might be late later, 301 00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:30.519 but it's so beautiful that you don't care, and it's so perfect. 302 00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:37.720 And to me, my take on the Harconin is that I think I think 303 00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:40.599 what Herbert was trying to do, and I think what movie captures is say, 304 00:23:41.319 --> 00:23:45.200 I'm not going to tell you that there's pure good and pure evil. 305 00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:49.039 I am going to give you that there's pure evil, but that the people 306 00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:55.039 who think they're good fighting actually are the really morally complex ones, most of 307 00:23:55.039 --> 00:23:56.119 whom are not as good as they think. So that yeah, there is 308 00:23:56.160 --> 00:24:00.200 a malevolent force of darkness in the world for Harconin, who are just laughable 309 00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:04.160 and ridiculous and terrifying. But then everyone else is like, it's the way, 310 00:24:04.279 --> 00:24:08.079 it's what we do to fight evil that makes us like all so much 311 00:24:08.119 --> 00:24:12.079 more complex, which is so interesting because I mean, you look at what 312 00:24:12.279 --> 00:24:18.079 is happening with the fremin and with the remaining of treadees, that we have 313 00:24:18.599 --> 00:24:22.880 the voices of innocence that are already compromised in utero, right. I thought 314 00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:27.920 this was an interesting choice because for me, the grand memory of so much 315 00:24:27.960 --> 00:24:33.839 of Doune was the portrayal of you know, Paul's sister, and the sister 316 00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:41.240 is never born in this take of Doune, the sister is already overtaken or 317 00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:45.880 unleashed by the power of the spice and the water of life, that it 318 00:24:47.079 --> 00:24:55.279 becomes a sort of sentient political will while still being born by her mother. 319 00:24:55.519 --> 00:24:59.799 And I thought that was a really interesting choice to take the voice of innocence 320 00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:03.880 as innocent as you can possibly have it, right, the voice of an 321 00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:10.039 unborn child, and make it a political activist. That that whole piece and 322 00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:11.400 I and they do get into that in the book a little bit more. 323 00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:15.759 They do touch on that is, you know, Lady Jessica goes into that 324 00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:18.960 and she says, basically, she's going to be taken on basically all the 325 00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:22.240 memories of all the reverend mothers before her, and so assuming that that is 326 00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:26.799 now not only passed to her, but to the unborn child. Of what 327 00:25:26.200 --> 00:25:32.839 all that wisdom is analedge but somehow filtered because there's there's clearly some some insight, 328 00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:38.160 but again there is that lack of worldly experience of living life of almost 329 00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:45.759 the purest form not just innocence, but just intellectual knowledge abstracted from I have 330 00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:49.160 nothing. You know, I'm protected, right, I'm not putting my life 331 00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:52.039 on the line. I'm not out there present in the world. I can 332 00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:55.960 be this, you know, like I guess reverse puppet master, right, 333 00:25:56.039 --> 00:25:57.359 you know, she can she can speak to to what's going on, she 334 00:25:57.440 --> 00:26:02.880 can hear everything that's going on, which I found is a fascinating way to 335 00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:08.400 have that character still have influence in the story without us having to go through 336 00:26:08.440 --> 00:26:11.319 all of the you know, let's kick the can down the road, you 337 00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:15.279 know, you know, a year to have this child born all of that, 338 00:26:15.480 --> 00:26:18.200 to keep things tight and do that, that was a you know, 339 00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:22.880 really nice way to handle that, and it was an interesting aspect of the 340 00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:27.400 character that to have such a strong presence without actually ever really being present on 341 00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:32.839 the screen. Yeah, and such a great exercise in narrative economy. Yes, 342 00:26:32.920 --> 00:26:34.559 right to your point, we didn't have any jump forwards in time. 343 00:26:34.599 --> 00:26:40.359 I'm sorry, Yeah, I think it really worked because, as we're saying 344 00:26:40.400 --> 00:26:42.319 in the book, it's over three years or so. Here it's over six 345 00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:48.279 months. But if it is over three years, again, just how do 346 00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:52.200 you put this on screen? You now need to have a top a two 347 00:26:52.279 --> 00:26:56.839 year old who is saying all this, and that's either going to be some 348 00:26:56.880 --> 00:27:03.000 weird like talking baby movie CGI that's going to really really uncomfortable, or in 349 00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:06.799 David Lynch's they've make it like a six year old girl dressed all in black. 350 00:27:07.960 --> 00:27:11.759 It's a nightmare child. You know, it's very creepy. Uh, 351 00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:14.720 she is very creepy. Uh. But yeah, I thought this worked really 352 00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:18.359 well and predictably if you are in certain corners of the internet, either on 353 00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:22.160 the pro or anti side, people have decided to make this thing, Oh 354 00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:26.680 geez, the newest debate over you know, all the IVF stuff that's happening 355 00:27:26.759 --> 00:27:30.759 right now. To be clear that both the book and the movies say like 356 00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:33.680 this is not a statement about a normal you know or feet this is a 357 00:27:33.720 --> 00:27:40.039 statement about you know, super godpowered drunk the blood, so right, yeah, 358 00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:42.960 but you know I thought it was creepy and uncomfortable, but in a 359 00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:48.039 way that really this really has me thinking a lot about how do you translate 360 00:27:48.119 --> 00:27:53.640 on screen to book? And I just don't think a world savvy two year 361 00:27:53.680 --> 00:27:56.920 old is going to translate on screen in any recognizable way. No. And 362 00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:00.279 also, you know, we have to think about, you know, what 363 00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:04.079 then happens with this ongoing conflict on the planet. While it's like we need 364 00:28:04.119 --> 00:28:07.000 to move time forward for this character to be born, so we're just going 365 00:28:07.079 --> 00:28:11.440 to put all this tension and conflict that's going that the Harconins are basically wiping 366 00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:15.599 everybody off the face of the Northern hemisphere. So for two years like oh, 367 00:28:15.640 --> 00:28:19.319 it's just status quo and nothing progresses. No that you know, by 368 00:28:19.640 --> 00:28:23.359 moving that, keeping the timeline tight, we're able to build on that tension 369 00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:30.079 of there's this massive genocide that's progressing as they basically wipe and push them down 370 00:28:30.079 --> 00:28:33.759 to the south to we've now reached that breaking point of like where where's it 371 00:28:33.799 --> 00:28:37.480 going to give? And I think I can understand narratively that choice to do 372 00:28:37.519 --> 00:28:41.079 that, to keep that tension as you have to adapt, you know, 373 00:28:41.240 --> 00:28:45.440 the elements from a book but in a movie. Yeah, the last thing 374 00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:48.920 I wanted was three years later, you know, on the screen, because 375 00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:52.640 it's just yeah, it just it kills the momentum, you know, does 376 00:28:52.720 --> 00:28:56.720 all those things. So I think they found a really nice way to handle 377 00:28:56.839 --> 00:29:00.720 that character of the sister and to keep at tension going with this this conflict, 378 00:29:00.759 --> 00:29:03.440 to keep us on the edge of our seats. Is we're moving forward 379 00:29:03.440 --> 00:29:07.799 because this is part one. Set all the pieces on the board. This 380 00:29:08.039 --> 00:29:11.440 is you know, everything starts to move and we've got the chess game being 381 00:29:11.839 --> 00:29:17.599 played out for us. But you know, sorry, Matthew, not enough 382 00:29:17.599 --> 00:29:26.839 boardroom meetings in this one is an awesome callback boardroom opportunities. I was wondering 383 00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:29.599 when I was gonna bring this up. I tried hard not to roll my 384 00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:33.160 eyes too visibly when you mentioned the quote about the director not liking dialogue, 385 00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:41.920 but you failed. Let me just tell you, I love this movie a 386 00:29:41.960 --> 00:29:44.160 lot more. I think in part because there's a lot more dialogue and a 387 00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:48.519 lot more it is political boardrooms and things like that, and while still being 388 00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:52.720 a visually stunning masterpiece, and again that that's a stylistic perspective of mine. 389 00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:55.440 I'm not saying that director's wrong. I'm just think it's not the stuff that 390 00:29:55.480 --> 00:30:00.519 I love necessarily. But I will say I thought so much of this was 391 00:30:00.599 --> 00:30:06.039 so good in terms of all of that. My one big complaint there are 392 00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:11.240 some actors who are so very much that actor that I no longer think they 393 00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:15.039 can just slip into a role and stop being that actor. And so when 394 00:30:15.079 --> 00:30:21.559 in the middle of this very deep, very intense movie, all of a 395 00:30:21.559 --> 00:30:26.279 sudden, instead of an emperor, there's Christopher Walking on screen who is just 396 00:30:26.359 --> 00:30:29.920 like he's shuffling, and then he's I can't do his voice at all. 397 00:30:29.920 --> 00:30:33.759 But it's just like, this is supposed to be the most powerful man in 398 00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:38.000 the galaxy. This is supposed to be a man who has who is a 399 00:30:38.200 --> 00:30:44.559 god emperor. And maybe it's because there's everything I know about Christopher Walkin, 400 00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:47.960 but also I thought his perfore, his performance, he just felt like an 401 00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:49.559 old guy who's gotta like, I don't know if I can hold on a 402 00:30:49.559 --> 00:30:56.119 bough anymore. What am I gonna do? You know this, Yeah, 403 00:30:56.440 --> 00:30:59.599 I don't know why Christopher Walking becomes an old Jewish man from Brooklyn in my 404 00:30:59.640 --> 00:31:06.200 mind, right, you really don't know why everything about him felt so wrong. 405 00:31:06.279 --> 00:31:07.480 But the rest of that, yeah, I love the board meetings, 406 00:31:07.559 --> 00:31:11.519 I love the court. I'm going to push back on that a little bit 407 00:31:11.640 --> 00:31:18.640 Court because I'm curious as to because, as I recall in the book, 408 00:31:18.680 --> 00:31:23.240 the emperor is not very present in the book. As I recall, so 409 00:31:25.039 --> 00:31:27.920 I really see that maybe that choice of picking someone like Chris walk and who 410 00:31:27.960 --> 00:31:32.880 can you know, play that as a little bit more more fragile, as 411 00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:37.119 you say, sort of shuffling around as the Harcone has seeing this as their 412 00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:41.160 opportunity, as the emperor is in decline, so he's got a daughter, 413 00:31:41.240 --> 00:31:44.519 he doesn't have a male error, you know, coming in. So is 414 00:31:44.599 --> 00:31:48.839 this is this play into that choice of casting of if we have somebody that 415 00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:55.279 is that is strong and just charismatic and virile and like I am the emperor, 416 00:31:56.079 --> 00:32:00.640 that introduces a different element that to me, you know, right now, 417 00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:04.839 he's I can see why the houses might want to go to war to 418 00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:07.720 see who's going to step into that role because he's somebody that can easily get 419 00:32:07.880 --> 00:32:12.240 get toppled. So I think that's sort of the way I'm looking at that 420 00:32:12.440 --> 00:32:16.279 of Paul can make this play because yeah, ever isn't in a position of 421 00:32:16.319 --> 00:32:20.799 strength anymore. He doesn't have that. So that's sort of the way I'm 422 00:32:20.920 --> 00:32:23.480 I'm looking at. But I agree, there's there are plenty of other actors 423 00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:29.359 that wouldn't be as you know, Yeah, it just pulls you out for 424 00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:31.640 a second. It is. It's like, oh, we've done this great 425 00:32:31.720 --> 00:32:36.720 job of putting the audience in this other time, in this other planet, 426 00:32:36.759 --> 00:32:39.440 and Christopher Walking just could be a bit of a strike to no fault of 427 00:32:39.440 --> 00:32:44.759 his own. It's just he had He's one of those actors that is got 428 00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:47.839 whatever he plays, he's he's Christopher Walking. Yeah, I will say Brian 429 00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:53.319 Blake in our comments totally agrees with you. Steve. I guess I think 430 00:32:53.319 --> 00:32:57.799 you're making a good point. I guess I just mean for me, Walking 431 00:32:57.920 --> 00:33:00.400 is a is It's not just days old or and fragile and vulnerable. It's 432 00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:06.440 that he's comedically doing that and instead of and so I saw it as a 433 00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:13.559 comedic portrayal of weakness instead of all. I think that point is well made 434 00:33:13.599 --> 00:33:16.880 because I don't know that walkin at this point in his career and he's that 435 00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:22.279 he's a stereotype of himself, right, He's a character of himself that I 436 00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:24.880 don't believe he's trying to play comic. I believe that he comes off as 437 00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:29.799 comic because of the baggage that he drags behind. Yes, I'm not sure 438 00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:36.000 that I necessarily believe that he fathered Florence Pew. I just there are there 439 00:33:36.039 --> 00:33:38.960 are questions, but but it also brings to mind to me. One of 440 00:33:38.960 --> 00:33:42.200 the things that I think is a bit of a trick of this movie is 441 00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:45.720 that it took a very dense bit of source material and it actually presented a 442 00:33:45.759 --> 00:33:52.519 political movie in a in a way that I think was easy to distill on 443 00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:55.400 screen and not over complicate it. Right. This is this is a movie 444 00:33:55.400 --> 00:33:59.799 where I was able to keep track of all of the characters and all of 445 00:33:59.880 --> 00:34:02.839 the motivations, and none of them felt overdone. And I say that right 446 00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:07.079 now because I think Florence Pugh's character might have been dancing on the razor's edge 447 00:34:07.159 --> 00:34:13.360 of that in another movie, in another director's hands. Uh, it might 448 00:34:13.440 --> 00:34:17.400 have been a shadow manipulator to the point of confusion in this story. But 449 00:34:17.519 --> 00:34:22.840 what they did by holding back a lot of I think that manipulative you know, 450 00:34:22.920 --> 00:34:28.360 the manipultive angles here was allowed the final line of you know, I 451 00:34:28.360 --> 00:34:31.960 guess he started the Holy Wars, you know, the whole you know, 452 00:34:32.519 --> 00:34:42.000 that is I think a really interesting way to set up what could have been, 453 00:34:43.239 --> 00:34:46.079 or what might still be, a much more complicated political story in the 454 00:34:46.079 --> 00:34:51.679 form of Messiah, where we have all of the houses fighting each other. 455 00:34:52.039 --> 00:34:55.559 Right now, we just have a boardroom, right like, we have a 456 00:34:55.639 --> 00:35:00.519 house, a wasted house, and the Emperor, and we can track of 457 00:35:00.519 --> 00:35:04.400 all the pieces on the board right like that. I think is a is 458 00:35:04.440 --> 00:35:08.360 a sort of narrative bit of narrative wizardry in this movie that helps it make 459 00:35:08.440 --> 00:35:13.000 sense and still be beautiful and approachable. No, it is because there's so 460 00:35:13.119 --> 00:35:19.639 much that happens in that in that final scene where we've got the final the 461 00:35:19.679 --> 00:35:23.079 final duel, we've got the challenge, we've got the proposal, We've got 462 00:35:23.519 --> 00:35:30.199 Lady Jessica just asserting her dominance by telling the big reverend mother like basically back 463 00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:36.320 off. So you've got this complete shift in power that happens all in this 464 00:35:36.599 --> 00:35:39.880 and it's it's very clear to track who those players are and who's who's rising 465 00:35:39.880 --> 00:35:44.000 to power. And who's now following what that transition is. Yeah, because 466 00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:47.039 the other houses are out there and we get we get a little bit you 467 00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:51.519 know, through like a telephone of like, oh they're they're doing this, 468 00:35:51.559 --> 00:35:54.760 they're not doing that, because yeah, it is. That will become a 469 00:35:54.800 --> 00:36:00.360 factor. But really to keep it as simple as those pieces and that we 470 00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:02.079 can track it all, because I think that's that's the important piece, that 471 00:36:02.119 --> 00:36:06.599 we can't be confused as to who's doing what and why I could I could 472 00:36:06.599 --> 00:36:09.159 easily track all of that. And there's multiple story threads going on with that, 473 00:36:09.280 --> 00:36:14.000 especially when you start to just quickly, you know, introduce things like 474 00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:16.159 oh, yeah, by the way, we're gonna twist this a little bit 475 00:36:16.159 --> 00:36:22.280 and let you know that Jessica is Baron Harkonen's daughter, right, So we've 476 00:36:22.280 --> 00:36:25.719 got all of that piece that gets open in there. Most it's just really 477 00:36:25.840 --> 00:36:30.519 you know, you know, complicating things with that which is done and I 478 00:36:30.519 --> 00:36:37.000 think they've managed to how do you stay faithful to the source material, make 479 00:36:37.079 --> 00:36:39.840 it coherent for a viewer that's sat through, you know, two hours and 480 00:36:39.880 --> 00:36:45.079 forty minutes of this to be engaged in tracking with it and not walk away 481 00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:50.400 confused as to what happened, why it's happened, and where the story is 482 00:36:50.559 --> 00:36:53.440 likely leading to next. All in that that last scene is that's a lot 483 00:36:53.440 --> 00:36:58.559 of heavy lifting for a writer. And I think it's also where the changes 484 00:36:58.559 --> 00:37:01.920 from the book are actually really useful, because I think Herbert was a brilliant 485 00:37:01.960 --> 00:37:05.840 writer of his time in many many ways, and many of his stuff is 486 00:37:05.880 --> 00:37:08.679 incredibly timeless. And I know this will come as a great shock to maybe 487 00:37:08.679 --> 00:37:12.320 both of you and to our listener. Anthough Steve has read it before, 488 00:37:13.440 --> 00:37:17.000 a science fiction novel written by a man in the nineteen sixties does not have 489 00:37:17.039 --> 00:37:21.519 the best characterizations of women that I have ever read. On page wait what 490 00:37:21.840 --> 00:37:25.239 I know? I know, shocking, shocking, shocked. There's gambling going 491 00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:31.480 on in this is deb exactly. Brian actually pointed out that in the book, 492 00:37:32.079 --> 00:37:37.800 she's kind of uh chowing the the try the triangle that you might think 493 00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:43.480 between Chawny and Princess Erdolan and Paul is kind of presented as well. He's 494 00:37:43.480 --> 00:37:45.639 got the native, you know, concubine, but he still gets to marry 495 00:37:45.760 --> 00:37:52.159 the rich white woman. I think a I think the way that Chawny breaks 496 00:37:52.199 --> 00:37:57.039 away from Paul so that there's never a sense of like like. I think 497 00:37:57.079 --> 00:38:00.360 Paul is pretty clear that he has lost Chawny by the time that he suggests 498 00:38:00.440 --> 00:38:04.760 that he should marry her, and that Chani does not lead. I mean, 499 00:38:04.760 --> 00:38:08.280 that's maybe the final It is the ceremony with the Emperor of him becoming 500 00:38:08.360 --> 00:38:13.880 emperor, not him wanting to marry this other woman that is white, because 501 00:38:14.599 --> 00:38:15.719 you know, I think it would have looked really awful if it'd been done 502 00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:21.159 a different way. But every think with Aerdalon in general, I think they 503 00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:23.480 give them a lot more characterization than they do in the book, which is 504 00:38:25.159 --> 00:38:28.719 the one thing that I had a problem with. Maybe this is just my 505 00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:32.079 face blindness, and it was very obvious to you guys. I did find 506 00:38:32.119 --> 00:38:37.400 it confusing when we get introduced to Princess Erdalan, who is a pale blonde 507 00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:44.159 benad gesture at woman, and then not long after it, a pale blonde 508 00:38:44.199 --> 00:38:50.920 bened gesture at woman goes to the Harkonins to seduce Faate and granted's in black 509 00:38:50.960 --> 00:38:53.880 and white, so that might be part of the confusion. I first thought 510 00:38:53.920 --> 00:38:58.639 it was Erdalon doing that until I had to go and look up some stuff 511 00:38:58.639 --> 00:39:00.360 online and think, oh no, it was not was I the only one 512 00:39:00.480 --> 00:39:05.760 was a little confused by that. We're talking about LEAs Do as Marco fen 513 00:39:05.880 --> 00:39:10.000 Ring right at this point. I, well, I wasn't confused, but 514 00:39:10.599 --> 00:39:15.039 I think it might be only I am a legit fan of both of them 515 00:39:15.199 --> 00:39:19.840 in separate works, and so yes, I was. I was tracking them 516 00:39:19.880 --> 00:39:22.800 because one I was surprised. I was surprised that Leasi Do was in in 517 00:39:22.840 --> 00:39:27.679 this movie. Frankly I did not. I didn't see it see it coming 518 00:39:27.679 --> 00:39:31.840 because she wasn't in the last one. And and you know, i'd heard 519 00:39:32.039 --> 00:39:37.599 that Qugh was in was in this movie, and I'm glad they saved her 520 00:39:37.119 --> 00:39:42.440 for this movie. But really this, you know, for me, it 521 00:39:42.519 --> 00:39:45.800 was just it was just tracking faces that I already of people that I already 522 00:39:45.880 --> 00:39:49.480 liked. That's really fair, And like I said, I'm not a face 523 00:39:49.559 --> 00:39:54.559 person. So yeah, let's we. I think we you're speaking of another 524 00:39:54.679 --> 00:40:02.119 bit of of twisty uh face play and specific faces that have been smooth to 525 00:40:02.159 --> 00:40:07.920 the point of, you know, our inability to recognize the Austin Butler is 526 00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:14.239 in this movie with oh my god, no eyebrows, And I think this 527 00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:16.519 was, you know, true to that sequence we were talking about just the 528 00:40:16.559 --> 00:40:22.000 idea of simplifying so many things that could have been complicated. When Paul says 529 00:40:22.039 --> 00:40:23.880 at their fight, Hello, cousin, Oh yeah, I'd heard that. 530 00:40:24.119 --> 00:40:28.599 All of that still made sense to me. And the whole role of Austin 531 00:40:28.599 --> 00:40:35.280 Butler as the sociopath who was for me in this movie an absolute high point. 532 00:40:36.039 --> 00:40:39.480 I really loved Austin Butler in this movie, and I love Dave Batista 533 00:40:39.519 --> 00:40:46.000 in the last movie. Dave Bautista getting bullied in this movie was a superlative 534 00:40:46.039 --> 00:40:52.400 delight, so good just I would pay twice to see that. And I 535 00:40:52.400 --> 00:40:57.199 want to think of the Heart Gun and Brothers, the way they just sort 536 00:40:57.239 --> 00:41:01.360 of introduce, you know, fade is based like, well there's this other 537 00:41:01.480 --> 00:41:06.000 factor. Yeah, but he's a sociopath. He's a psychopath. It's like, 538 00:41:06.079 --> 00:41:08.159 what the question is, can we control him? And so it's that 539 00:41:08.239 --> 00:41:12.440 Benny Jester at like, we're still in this for the long haul, we 540 00:41:12.559 --> 00:41:17.400 were playing the long game on this. I find another fascinating, you know, 541 00:41:17.440 --> 00:41:22.880 sort of complicating factor in all of this, of thinking that there's no 542 00:41:22.039 --> 00:41:27.800 guarantee that Paul is the one right, that the prophecy may not be about 543 00:41:27.880 --> 00:41:31.119 him. They they're still manipulating things, and knowing that Jessica is of harcone 544 00:41:31.119 --> 00:41:34.760 and blood, it's like, Okay, there's clearly something in that bloodline that 545 00:41:34.760 --> 00:41:37.199 they think is valuable. So yes, this lunatic that they want to figure 546 00:41:37.239 --> 00:41:43.280 out if they could possibly control him, is that you know, could he 547 00:41:43.480 --> 00:41:46.480 be the one? Do we want the sociopath to be the one? And 548 00:41:46.599 --> 00:41:51.559 I just thought he played it so well. When you've got that whole arena 549 00:41:51.679 --> 00:41:53.400 fight, I mean, yeah, Matthews said, it's like a it's a 550 00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:58.280 separate little short film in the middle of everything that is that has done so 551 00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:01.000 well. It shifts tone and you're just like, yeah, I'm on the 552 00:42:01.079 --> 00:42:06.079 ride for this. But to then stand to have a character come in and 553 00:42:06.119 --> 00:42:12.119 then hold their own amongst all these other established characters so well, and yeah, 554 00:42:12.440 --> 00:42:15.519 humble debate. Did Dave Batista you know, yes, there's I love 555 00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:22.440 that performance. I you know, he doesn't have the walk in syndrome, 556 00:42:22.519 --> 00:42:23.800 right, I didn't see like, oh well that's just Elvis under there, 557 00:42:23.880 --> 00:42:27.079 right, you know, I don't get that. It's just this is a 558 00:42:27.159 --> 00:42:30.480 completely If you hadn't told me that, I probably I would have some face 559 00:42:30.519 --> 00:42:34.920 blindness there. I just love that now and I loved Elvis the movie. 560 00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:37.159 Yeah exactly. I'm just like, I don't see that. He just totally 561 00:42:37.159 --> 00:42:42.679 buried himself in that role. And I thought it was a fabulous addition to 562 00:42:43.039 --> 00:42:45.800 this cast. Go watch the first episode of Masters of the Air. He's 563 00:42:45.840 --> 00:42:51.079 in that too. Extraordinary. And again, cause I didn't see this as 564 00:42:51.159 --> 00:42:53.760 much in Elvis, but then because I look at Elvis in this like one 565 00:42:53.760 --> 00:42:59.039 of the most beautiful men I've ever seen in my life. And the monochromatic 566 00:42:59.119 --> 00:43:01.079 worked so well. And yes, I was a goth kid in the eighties 567 00:43:01.119 --> 00:43:06.760 and nineties, and so his black eyes were just like ah, yeah, 568 00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:12.880 okay, yeah, And when they show him in like black color one shop, 569 00:43:12.920 --> 00:43:15.119 we would like see the green in his eyes. I was like, 570 00:43:15.159 --> 00:43:16.400 no, no, no, I wanted to believe his eyes were black. 571 00:43:17.480 --> 00:43:22.400 But you know, everything about it was so well done. And yeah, 572 00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:24.280 this idea of them being cousins, you know, because remember the idea was 573 00:43:24.280 --> 00:43:29.679 supposed to be that Paul if Paul was a woman, then these two would 574 00:43:29.679 --> 00:43:34.760 have, you know, also been mated basically to produce what they would have 575 00:43:34.800 --> 00:43:38.039 thought of as the one their cousins quite literally. And if you think that, 576 00:43:38.199 --> 00:43:43.400 wow, some group trying to like make all these different This is exactly 577 00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:45.719 what Queen Victoria and like a lot of the other European monarchs at the time, 578 00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:49.960 we're doing of like, Okay, well, if this person marries this 579 00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:52.719 person and then their kid marries this other person's kid, we'll have like all 580 00:43:52.719 --> 00:43:57.559 these perfect alliances, you know. And that's part of the point is how 581 00:43:57.559 --> 00:44:00.519 do we make peace between the duke and the baron. Let's get their kids 582 00:44:00.559 --> 00:44:05.159 to marry. I just thought everything about it was so well done, and 583 00:44:05.199 --> 00:44:07.920 you're right, it was so much simpler in the book. There's so much 584 00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:13.360 about the rivalry between them, between Dave Batista and Austin Baker. I mean, 585 00:44:13.360 --> 00:44:17.440 they're real get their Fade and what's what's ravon? Thank you Ravon the 586 00:44:17.480 --> 00:44:22.840 beast. Uh, it's just wonderful. But there's just and again it's all 587 00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:29.719 incredibly homophobic. And there's a whole long plot line about how Fade sends slave 588 00:44:29.800 --> 00:44:34.000 boys to the baron, including one who has a poison needle and a part 589 00:44:34.400 --> 00:44:37.400 on his thigh where the baron often touches, and it just it's all supposed 590 00:44:37.400 --> 00:44:42.639 to be this like extracted lesson of the baron teaching kind of a stiff like 591 00:44:42.719 --> 00:44:45.840 idea of like I'm teaching you to kill me, but you're not ready yet, 592 00:44:45.880 --> 00:44:49.960 and I'm gonna yeah, but it's not necessary, and I wanted to 593 00:44:50.039 --> 00:44:52.599 confuse the story, and I'm kind of glad they got rid of most of 594 00:44:52.599 --> 00:44:54.639 it for this well. And then you bring up the Baron. I mean, 595 00:44:54.639 --> 00:45:00.920 we were I think all enthusiasts of scars Guard's portrayal in the first movie, 596 00:45:00.960 --> 00:45:06.480 and I think they've leveled him up, particularly because of his arc of 597 00:45:06.559 --> 00:45:13.360 power in this movie. I bought the overall trajectory of the Emperor as being 598 00:45:13.480 --> 00:45:19.559 this avatar of power all the way up to you die like a pig and 599 00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:24.199 giving the death to Paul and really demonstrating that when he isn't floating with his 600 00:45:24.280 --> 00:45:30.119 anti gravity bubbles, he is a slug. He is he crawls across the 601 00:45:30.159 --> 00:45:37.280 floor like a slug. And I thought that was that was a really diabolical 602 00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:42.320 bit of filmmaking that had me in its grip. Thoughts on portrayals of the 603 00:45:42.719 --> 00:45:45.559 Baron. Oh, it was great. I just love that moment of he's 604 00:45:45.639 --> 00:45:51.840 there just crawling. It's like his entire purpose, everything that's driven him is 605 00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:54.199 to get to that throne and in his last moments, he's like making this 606 00:45:54.400 --> 00:46:00.199 last effort, like everybody's can I can I get there? Can I just 607 00:46:00.360 --> 00:46:04.320 get to there? He's right, it's like because everything else has gone around, 608 00:46:04.360 --> 00:46:06.639 and you see the emperor has been pulled down over there and it's throwing, 609 00:46:06.639 --> 00:46:08.480 and he's like, let me crawl up there, and it it is. 610 00:46:09.400 --> 00:46:13.360 And I don't know, you know, my history as well, or 611 00:46:13.400 --> 00:46:15.760 what Herbert's influences were, but you know, Matthews, you're talking about, 612 00:46:15.880 --> 00:46:20.199 you know, some of the aspects of Look, I'm looking at this as 613 00:46:20.760 --> 00:46:24.719 sort of like taking aspects of like Roman culture into the Harconans where you where 614 00:46:24.719 --> 00:46:30.559 you have those pieces and that corruption and just absolute depravity. That's that's in 615 00:46:30.559 --> 00:46:34.920 a declining empire versus you know, mid Middle Eastern cultures and playing around with 616 00:46:34.960 --> 00:46:37.679 those ideas. And I think what they've done is been able to you know, 617 00:46:38.280 --> 00:46:42.760 remove some of that, you know, aspect of the weaker parts of 618 00:46:42.760 --> 00:46:45.079 that. As you said, let's let's get rid of that homo eroticism, 619 00:46:45.159 --> 00:46:47.199 because I think that's you know, not strengthening the story. But I look 620 00:46:47.239 --> 00:46:52.079 at that again as like what we can learn from history even by projecting it 621 00:46:52.360 --> 00:46:54.559 whatever, eight thousand years in the future, that that certain you know, 622 00:46:55.239 --> 00:46:59.840 aspects of human nature drive us to certain things, and so we will always 623 00:46:59.840 --> 00:47:05.960 have a character like the Baron who is just pure greed and power and what 624 00:47:06.039 --> 00:47:10.440 that does to to really dehumanize a person so that he is literally like a 625 00:47:10.480 --> 00:47:14.559 slug. You know, even from the beginning when we first see him floating, 626 00:47:14.880 --> 00:47:17.119 he's just got the trailing cloak. It's just like the tail. He's 627 00:47:17.239 --> 00:47:21.840 he ceased to be human in any way at all. And so I think 628 00:47:21.920 --> 00:47:25.159 that scars Guard I read that. Yeah, he preferred the eight hours of 629 00:47:25.199 --> 00:47:31.440 makeup to the He talked about all the the digital CGI stuff they had to 630 00:47:31.480 --> 00:47:35.599 do for Pirates of the Caribbean. He said, now I'll take the prosthetics 631 00:47:36.079 --> 00:47:38.400 any day on that, even though it's eight hours of just to be that 632 00:47:38.719 --> 00:47:45.760 present in that piece. And h yeah, there's the number of dunkings he 633 00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:51.280 went through, like just the I thought that the viscosity in that as it 634 00:47:51.320 --> 00:47:53.639 as the oils fall from his skin, I thought it was I mean, 635 00:47:54.079 --> 00:48:00.360 it was just so so real, so real. I'm sorry, Matthew sign 636 00:48:00.679 --> 00:48:01.719 And to me, there are two things I loved. One just kind of 637 00:48:01.719 --> 00:48:06.079 pick aim on what you were saying, Steve. His portrayal was so good 638 00:48:06.119 --> 00:48:09.599 in part because you know, you mentioned that like Herbert uses gayness as a 639 00:48:09.639 --> 00:48:12.960 way of being, like, look, how to prave they are. The 640 00:48:13.000 --> 00:48:19.119 other thing they use is is fatphobia, like is specifically because he is so 641 00:48:19.840 --> 00:48:24.280 ginormously fat that he has these suspensers and so making him this like very weak, 642 00:48:24.440 --> 00:48:30.519 frail creature, but a slug that's like tall instead of being you know, 643 00:48:30.639 --> 00:48:32.599 rotund. It's another way of being like, look, we don't have 644 00:48:32.639 --> 00:48:37.719 to draw upon this punching down thing to do it. But then to me, 645 00:48:37.760 --> 00:48:43.000 the other thing that it hints at, which is something that is very 646 00:48:43.039 --> 00:48:45.880 deep in the books, and I don't think we'll ever see on screen, 647 00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:47.519 if not for a very long time, although it's all of a sudden very 648 00:48:47.519 --> 00:48:52.280 relevant in the books. You know, if you notice there's never a computer 649 00:48:52.440 --> 00:48:55.880 that's ever used. Oh yeah, they don't. Yes, they left all 650 00:48:55.920 --> 00:49:00.760 of that out. They're not allowed to make a device that replicates the human 651 00:49:01.039 --> 00:49:05.960 brain. They can't do AI, which talking about a very relevant story. 652 00:49:06.320 --> 00:49:09.360 But so to have him be a person who is over the reliant on technology 653 00:49:10.800 --> 00:49:15.039 is very important in this work, and I like that they it's like a 654 00:49:15.039 --> 00:49:16.679 little bit of fan service, you know, in that like, but it's 655 00:49:16.679 --> 00:49:21.000 not because it serves the story. But the other thing I thought was so 656 00:49:21.039 --> 00:49:25.880 great about that scene is what is the most classic trope of the final confrontation 657 00:49:27.039 --> 00:49:30.880 between a hero and a villain in a story about a hero. It's one 658 00:49:30.920 --> 00:49:34.400 of them is that the hero has been driven by vengeance. I have to 659 00:49:34.480 --> 00:49:37.800 kill the villain. I have to kill the viglain. I've beaten the villain 660 00:49:37.840 --> 00:49:39.880 down the venal and is broken at my feet. I can kill them. 661 00:49:40.719 --> 00:49:45.199 And you know what, I realize I'm the better person. I can walk 662 00:49:45.239 --> 00:49:49.039 away. I don't need to kill them, and that's the heroic act. 663 00:49:49.119 --> 00:49:52.239 And Paul has that chance and is like, nah, I'm gonna stab you 664 00:49:52.360 --> 00:49:57.400 right in the f and throat. But yeah, it was just it was 665 00:49:57.440 --> 00:50:00.119 like to me, and there are still people have walked out and been like, 666 00:50:00.159 --> 00:50:02.880 yeah, Paul's the hero, and I'm like, no, kill the 667 00:50:02.960 --> 00:50:09.239 defenseless man, like yeah, right, yeh. So I'm looking at Brian's 668 00:50:09.280 --> 00:50:15.920 comments. He was talking about Rebecca Ferguson's performance because you look at the ship 669 00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:19.719 from the first one to the second film, from part one to part two, 670 00:50:19.719 --> 00:50:23.280 because Part one is really a lot of Paul and Jessica together, and 671 00:50:23.280 --> 00:50:27.280 this one they are separated for so much of the move they each take on 672 00:50:27.360 --> 00:50:30.280 their own mantle, where he's got the path that he's on and she's got 673 00:50:30.280 --> 00:50:35.960 her own separate path. And the transformation her character goes through, I think 674 00:50:36.159 --> 00:50:39.559 is critical and I think it's important to not overlook it because coming back to 675 00:50:39.599 --> 00:50:45.840 the prophecy she's playing that, she's continuing to play that out from the South. 676 00:50:45.880 --> 00:50:47.840 And I did read one article that you know, talked about her becoming 677 00:50:47.880 --> 00:50:52.159 the villain of the film, and I don't I don't understand that interpretation of 678 00:50:52.199 --> 00:50:55.360 that because I don't see her as being a villain. I think it is 679 00:50:55.920 --> 00:51:00.159 she's the the other side of Paul right again, that neither of them are 680 00:51:00.239 --> 00:51:06.679 heroic. We can understand what their rationale is for their choices. But I 681 00:51:06.760 --> 00:51:12.840 thought it was a very interesting way to take that character to really show us 682 00:51:12.920 --> 00:51:15.519 visually. I love what they did with makeup and costuming with her to really 683 00:51:15.880 --> 00:51:22.400 embed her into that culture, into that reverend mother role. With that, 684 00:51:22.760 --> 00:51:28.280 and I feel like it's possible to overlook that part, but I think it's 685 00:51:28.280 --> 00:51:31.440 a critical part to the story that we can't forget to think about her role 686 00:51:31.480 --> 00:51:36.760 with the Fremen down there. Well, I think you're absolutely right. I 687 00:51:36.800 --> 00:51:42.119 think one of the things that strikes me is that she is she is given 688 00:51:42.360 --> 00:51:47.079 actually a parallel story to Paul's, right, because she's already kind of an 689 00:51:47.079 --> 00:51:52.280 outsider Bena Jesuit as Paul's mother, right, She's not really looked kindly upon. 690 00:51:52.800 --> 00:51:58.280 And what we learn in this movie is that the Bena Jesuit are not 691 00:51:58.719 --> 00:52:02.599 great, right they are. They see themselves as kind of the benevolent kind 692 00:52:02.639 --> 00:52:08.079 of planners of the universe, but really they are manipulators, right, And 693 00:52:08.079 --> 00:52:14.519 that's the whole thing when we get when we get that conversation with guyas Helen 694 00:52:14.639 --> 00:52:17.519 like, of course she they've been planning this all along, and they have 695 00:52:17.920 --> 00:52:22.840 plans and B plans and C plans and this is what they do. And 696 00:52:24.400 --> 00:52:30.239 I think you look at lady Jessica, her arc is simply to accept the 697 00:52:30.320 --> 00:52:35.719 thing that is evil in the in the hand that she was given and to 698 00:52:35.760 --> 00:52:38.639 do her best with it, right, Like, I don't believe she is 699 00:52:38.679 --> 00:52:43.360 a died in the wool Benajeserit mother. By the end, when she uses 700 00:52:43.480 --> 00:52:47.119 the voice right on Helen. That's a very powerful moment, and I will 701 00:52:47.119 --> 00:52:51.360 say as an aside, I could have used more voice. I love the 702 00:52:51.480 --> 00:52:53.239 voice, and every time someone gets smacked down with the voice, I am 703 00:52:53.280 --> 00:53:00.039 a very happy person. So I think that's a really interesting sort of commentary 704 00:53:00.079 --> 00:53:07.159 on Jessica's arc, the fact that it really does mirror Paul's in the choices 705 00:53:07.199 --> 00:53:09.400 they sort of are forced to make, well, especially because they both take 706 00:53:09.480 --> 00:53:14.360 down the most powerful person in the universe from their perspective. From there, 707 00:53:14.400 --> 00:53:19.639 Paul takes down the Emperor, she takes down the Mother Superior, and I 708 00:53:20.360 --> 00:53:25.280 think her she has a very interesting characterization in this because for Paul, Paul 709 00:53:25.400 --> 00:53:30.800 has an idealistic goal. He thinks that the oppression of the Fremen is wrong. 710 00:53:30.239 --> 00:53:32.840 His father felt the same way, but his father was still in the 711 00:53:34.480 --> 00:53:37.159 I can free them so that they will be good to meet, you know, 712 00:53:37.400 --> 00:53:42.800 And in the book Paul is very clear about he still has that colonizer 713 00:53:42.920 --> 00:53:45.440 mentality of his father, you know, I am the Duke of Tredees, 714 00:53:46.400 --> 00:53:50.800 and in this most that had left out he really just wants to help the 715 00:53:50.800 --> 00:53:53.599 Fremen be the Fremen, which then becomes like, then let's go take over 716 00:53:53.599 --> 00:53:57.599 the galaxy, which is a whole other uh, which is you know, 717 00:53:57.960 --> 00:54:01.000 his villain turn. But I think the thing is that so he has this 718 00:54:01.079 --> 00:54:07.280 idealistic goal of how can we make things better? Jessica has had one goal 719 00:54:07.440 --> 00:54:10.440 since the first moment she appeared on screen in Part one, protect the people 720 00:54:10.519 --> 00:54:15.719 she loves and for her, I think they make it very clear she never 721 00:54:15.800 --> 00:54:19.880 has a thought. I don't think she cares much one way or another about 722 00:54:20.079 --> 00:54:24.559 who is actually ruling our Katie or Oracus, who is actually in control you 723 00:54:24.599 --> 00:54:29.480 know what's happened to the fremin. But at some point she realizes, Okay, 724 00:54:29.639 --> 00:54:31.480 at first she thinks, Okay, the best way to keep my family 725 00:54:31.519 --> 00:54:36.320 safe is to keep Dukelido safe. That didn't work. The best way to 726 00:54:36.400 --> 00:54:39.119 keep my son safe is to hide as much as we can. That didn't 727 00:54:39.119 --> 00:54:44.599 work. Okay, I guess the best way to keep him safe is to 728 00:54:44.599 --> 00:54:46.559 make him the ruler of absolutely everything. So let's do that. Yeah, 729 00:54:46.679 --> 00:54:51.039 yeah, exactly right, exactly right. Yes. And I think in that 730 00:54:51.119 --> 00:54:54.440 I think she is immoral and not emoral like, because I do think there's 731 00:54:54.440 --> 00:54:59.199 a sense she like. I think she will murder small children in their cribs 732 00:54:59.199 --> 00:55:01.880 to keep her keep her family safe. I have no doubt about that. 733 00:55:04.039 --> 00:55:07.400 But I think she she has no like where's the Bena jesuit, like you 734 00:55:07.440 --> 00:55:09.280 said, have a like wahaha, we're going to rule everything. I don't 735 00:55:09.320 --> 00:55:12.719 think she wants to rule. I think she just wants to be safe. 736 00:55:13.559 --> 00:55:15.719 But she would kill small babies in their cribs to do that. You know. 737 00:55:15.880 --> 00:55:19.599 So because the Beni jesrad are very much at what cost, like a 738 00:55:19.719 --> 00:55:22.360 negotiation, We're going to weigh opportunity costs for our actions, and she's at 739 00:55:22.599 --> 00:55:27.559 any cost kind of person like she will protect her her family at any call. 740 00:55:27.639 --> 00:55:29.800 I like that, But she has a much smaller goal than they do. 741 00:55:29.920 --> 00:55:34.559 Yep. Well, right up to the moment that her son becomes the 742 00:55:34.679 --> 00:55:37.519 leader of the Messiah, the leader of everything, right, then her goal, 743 00:55:37.760 --> 00:55:40.800 then her goal suddenly scales up, scales up, But I don't think 744 00:55:40.840 --> 00:55:44.440 it does. I think the point is that it's still it's still to keep 745 00:55:44.480 --> 00:55:47.039 him safe, Yes, to keep him safe, but on such a large 746 00:55:47.079 --> 00:55:51.639 stage, right, And that's what makes me I'm so interested in the in 747 00:55:51.679 --> 00:55:54.920 whatever comes of the next movie, which is I think an exploration of so 748 00:55:55.000 --> 00:56:00.480 many of these these topics on a very big stage, as big and beautiful 749 00:56:00.599 --> 00:56:04.559 as this movie is, and it is giant and gorgeous, it is a 750 00:56:04.599 --> 00:56:09.760 small stage, right, This movie is Aracus, and what's going on on 751 00:56:09.840 --> 00:56:15.440 Oracus? Everybody comes to Aracus, and I guess we do have the middle 752 00:56:15.079 --> 00:56:20.960 sequence, the black and white sequence, but you know, the stage on 753 00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:27.159 an interstellar scale is small. I'm curious what happens when it grows. Do 754 00:56:27.239 --> 00:56:30.679 we know there's gonna be a part of three? Like they? So that 755 00:56:30.800 --> 00:56:36.159 is an incredible segue you've offered for us. This is what I meant by 756 00:56:36.599 --> 00:56:39.960 we go the same conversation as we did in twenty twenty one, because as 757 00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:44.000 we record this, there is no official green light of the next movie. 758 00:56:44.039 --> 00:56:50.280 However, this movie has outperformed the first one on opening weekend by you know, 759 00:56:50.400 --> 00:56:53.679 quite a bit. So this is what I got from comScore estimated Sunday 760 00:56:53.760 --> 00:57:00.719 estimates. We're as of right now as we record this, domestic eighty one 761 00:57:00.840 --> 00:57:09.119 million, five international ninety seven million, So right now estimates cumulative one hundred 762 00:57:09.119 --> 00:57:14.039 and seventy eight million dollar movie in the box office for this weekend. That 763 00:57:14.280 --> 00:57:19.679 is better than the first one. And I think it all but guarantees that 764 00:57:19.719 --> 00:57:23.840 we're going to be seeing Dune Messiah now. Vinuv has said, I think 765 00:57:23.880 --> 00:57:28.760 I'm really done after the third one, and in fact, I've been working 766 00:57:28.800 --> 00:57:32.559 for six years on these two movies straight and I'm ready for a break from 767 00:57:32.639 --> 00:57:37.840 the sun. So I think we're going to take a break and he'll probably 768 00:57:37.880 --> 00:57:44.960 do something else first, but we can likely expect Dune Messiah. The way 769 00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:49.760 I read this article and the way I read his comments are this finishes the 770 00:57:49.880 --> 00:57:55.239 Dune contributions for me, that this tells what I believe is my complete story 771 00:57:55.400 --> 00:58:00.519 of done as a director and writer. And from there, who knows what's 772 00:58:00.559 --> 00:58:05.320 going to happen. But but as of you know, all the rumors and 773 00:58:05.599 --> 00:58:07.559 all the actors have said, yeah, Donny calls, it's a yes. 774 00:58:07.840 --> 00:58:10.920 Zandaia says, I don't really care what it is. If he calls me, 775 00:58:10.960 --> 00:58:14.599 I'm gonna say yes. If it's a Messiah, right, we'll come 776 00:58:14.639 --> 00:58:22.000 back. So that's great. Uh, too bad for uh guys like this 777 00:58:22.079 --> 00:58:25.880 is an interesting thing only because I watched the second Aquaman movie last night. 778 00:58:27.519 --> 00:58:32.280 I don't know why. I'm sorry. Well, so this this is what 779 00:58:32.440 --> 00:58:37.920 I thought was interesting because in all the books Duncan, Idaho is listed as 780 00:58:37.159 --> 00:58:44.920 a character like through the any other character becomes Duncan Idaho is there the whole 781 00:58:44.960 --> 00:58:47.199 time? Does he come back and Misson? Well, it's I forget what 782 00:58:47.320 --> 00:58:52.239 the name is. It's like it's sort of like a clone of him that 783 00:58:52.320 --> 00:58:59.360 they that they have, so it's it's his character, and yes, but 784 00:58:59.400 --> 00:59:01.559 it's like a clone of him that I yeah, I read it is the 785 00:59:01.599 --> 00:59:07.000 only character that's like present in like a large single yeah, all the books 786 00:59:07.079 --> 00:59:09.079 or whatever. Yeah, I mean, one thing I think is important to 787 00:59:09.159 --> 00:59:15.840 understanding these books is that as Star as I understand Herbert and Gene Roddenberry, 788 00:59:15.000 --> 00:59:17.480 like, we're very much seen as people who saw eye to eye in a 789 00:59:17.519 --> 00:59:21.960 lot of ways. And so like what you're saying about, like, you 790 00:59:22.000 --> 00:59:24.800 know, is he like brought back from the dead? Is he a clone 791 00:59:25.559 --> 00:59:29.320 in the same way that you think about Original Star Trek. There's all these 792 00:59:29.360 --> 00:59:35.480 episodes where the people believe that these are religious things happening, but our crew 793 00:59:35.599 --> 00:59:40.000 knows the scientific explanation. Him coming back is seen as like, you know, 794 00:59:40.079 --> 00:59:43.559 it's a messiah. They raise people from the dead, that's what you 795 00:59:43.679 --> 00:59:46.559 do. But also that it's a close and so yeah, it's a it's 796 00:59:46.559 --> 00:59:50.840 a thing. Okay, well, I'll buy that is a thing. And 797 00:59:51.000 --> 00:59:54.400 I actually thought I think with both I think all of these anciliary kind of 798 00:59:54.440 --> 01:00:00.559 support characters, right Gurnie Halleck and Duncan Idaho, I think they're They're really 799 01:00:00.559 --> 01:00:04.199 fun and I think they were cast well. I think Brolin is great in 800 01:00:04.519 --> 01:00:08.440 this movie. I think he's a great character to have back, and so 801 01:00:08.559 --> 01:00:12.480 I'll take them, you know, if they can find a way to bring 802 01:00:12.519 --> 01:00:14.239 him back for the next movie. I don't know, but I haven't. 803 01:00:14.239 --> 01:00:16.360 I haven't read Messiah, so I need to. I need to actually read 804 01:00:16.360 --> 01:00:20.679 this over the next four or five years to get caught up. I mean, 805 01:00:20.719 --> 01:00:22.519 that's gonna be the thing about making them is the first book is now 806 01:00:22.519 --> 01:00:27.039 over, like that's the story you've told. Starting with the second book, 807 01:00:27.039 --> 01:00:30.199 they get a lot weirder. And there's even someone will tell you that the 808 01:00:30.239 --> 01:00:35.840 original trilogy of the three movies, the three books is just a prequel to 809 01:00:35.920 --> 01:00:37.440 the real book, which is Beook four. I have not read that far. 810 01:00:38.440 --> 01:00:40.760 I think God Emperor of Dooman is the fourth one. I'm not sure, 811 01:00:40.800 --> 01:00:49.199 but so like there's all these scenes in the book where Paul can't tell 812 01:00:49.400 --> 01:00:53.800 like he's remembering conversations that he's had with his sister, and he doesn't know 813 01:00:53.800 --> 01:00:59.320 if they've already happened at the time of the conversation's currently happening. As we 814 01:00:59.360 --> 01:01:01.039 get to wrapping, which we need to get to wrapping up, I do 815 01:01:01.119 --> 01:01:07.519 want to talk about production design, effects and direction. The movie did look 816 01:01:07.719 --> 01:01:15.480 really, really good. Thoughts on the expansion are expansion of Oracus and the 817 01:01:15.519 --> 01:01:20.679 fact that we get monochromatic sequences, the fact that we get worm wrestling, 818 01:01:20.880 --> 01:01:23.800 and what writing a worm actually looks like. That was a thing that we 819 01:01:23.800 --> 01:01:28.840 were frustrated by in that last movie that we didn't get quite enough of the 820 01:01:28.840 --> 01:01:30.320 worm writing. And this one, not only is it do we get to 821 01:01:30.360 --> 01:01:37.679 ride the worm? We caravan these worms right amazing. That was something that 822 01:01:37.920 --> 01:01:43.039 I was I was so excited to see and the one thing that I noticed. 823 01:01:43.719 --> 01:01:46.199 Maybe it's just the difference in how effects are rendered down then, but 824 01:01:46.320 --> 01:01:51.920 as I recall, like David Lynch's Dune, sort of like, yeah, 825 01:01:52.039 --> 01:01:55.760 they're sort of galloping along on a worm. These worms are flying along the 826 01:01:55.840 --> 01:02:00.840 sand. I mean they are just I'm like, I'm a how do you 827 01:02:00.880 --> 01:02:04.280 get off this? Because that's like jumping off a train traveling one hundred miles 828 01:02:04.320 --> 01:02:07.679 an hour. These these worms are just cruising through the sand, and it 829 01:02:07.800 --> 01:02:12.039 just created so much more excitement out of that of like, you get on 830 01:02:12.119 --> 01:02:15.320 that thing and then you just go as they're cruising through that. It just 831 01:02:15.480 --> 01:02:17.800 made that so much more of what I always wanted it to be and to 832 01:02:17.880 --> 01:02:21.679 see. So I is so thrilled, and I love the fact that they 833 01:02:21.800 --> 01:02:24.719 didn't need to like, we don't need to get into the mechanics of why 834 01:02:24.760 --> 01:02:28.559 everything has to happen the way it does, and what they're doing is just 835 01:02:28.599 --> 01:02:30.119 like just take it and we're gonna go with this. We're not slowing the 836 01:02:30.119 --> 01:02:34.159 story down. You hook in and you hang on for your life for this 837 01:02:34.320 --> 01:02:39.119 ride. It was awesome the fact that they made suspense into the actual that 838 01:02:39.320 --> 01:02:43.400 first worm ride, when Paul is trying to get on the worm, it's 839 01:02:43.519 --> 01:02:47.159 just sliding down the dune. I was. I was in a panic state. 840 01:02:47.280 --> 01:02:51.679 I knew he would win, but I was in a sense of great 841 01:02:51.719 --> 01:02:55.519 anxiety because what if he didn't, he would be buried under a thousand feet 842 01:02:55.599 --> 01:03:00.079 of sand, Right, that's extraordinary. I'm sorry that buried under a worm 843 01:03:00.119 --> 01:03:04.599 that would yeah, yeah, well he crashed the worm. Yeah, yeah, 844 01:03:04.599 --> 01:03:07.360 first crish, then very efficient. Yeah. No, I thought it 845 01:03:07.400 --> 01:03:12.360 was done so well as you said. See if it didn't it skipped all 846 01:03:12.360 --> 01:03:15.320 the mechanics, which, by the way, again to modern years, sound 847 01:03:15.480 --> 01:03:17.320 really cruel to these animals. Yes, so I was glad for that, 848 01:03:19.360 --> 01:03:23.880 but I also thought it was is the parallels between his story and Chawnese were 849 01:03:24.039 --> 01:03:30.079 so well done, and having her play the role she does without it like 850 01:03:30.119 --> 01:03:35.639 I think people have you can look at this without really understanding it and see 851 01:03:35.679 --> 01:03:38.360 Channy as a Pocahontas figure and you know, kind of a very racist and 852 01:03:38.360 --> 01:03:42.280 I think in the book there's some truth to that. And I think so 853 01:03:42.920 --> 01:03:45.840 having her be the one who helps him learn this helps teach him this. 854 01:03:45.480 --> 01:03:50.320 But then when she does it at the very end, there's the suspense of 855 01:03:50.360 --> 01:03:52.599 what is exactly she going to do. But I didn't have a doubt in 856 01:03:52.639 --> 01:03:54.639 my mind that when she wanted to get on that worm, she was going 857 01:03:54.679 --> 01:03:58.400 to get on that worm. And I just thought that was such a good 858 01:03:58.599 --> 01:04:03.039 counterpoint to his story. And yeah, everything about it was so visually breathtaking. 859 01:04:03.360 --> 01:04:09.760 And I and granted this is my own you know, perhaps bugaboo about 860 01:04:09.760 --> 01:04:14.800 this strad filmmaking. What this showed me is I can really appreciate the absolute 861 01:04:14.840 --> 01:04:18.000 beauty without needing to stare at the beauty for ten more seconds before someone else 862 01:04:18.000 --> 01:04:25.360 says something. What an incredible power move that we get those ten seconds on 863 01:04:25.400 --> 01:04:29.719 Shanni's face before we cut to credits. I thought that was an incredible choice 864 01:04:30.039 --> 01:04:33.079 to be in a movie that is so big to end on. You know, 865 01:04:33.199 --> 01:04:39.719 this extreme close up on her features as she's writing the work right or 866 01:04:39.760 --> 01:04:42.639 she's jump about to jump on the work. Well, yeah, I thought, 867 01:04:43.119 --> 01:04:45.960 oh, we're getting another one. I mean, that's that's all I 868 01:04:45.000 --> 01:04:48.840 could take from that, because like we don't get the typical like yeah, 869 01:04:49.079 --> 01:04:54.440 the Emperors that you don't have that emotional lift of like we've defeated the bad 870 01:04:54.480 --> 01:04:57.320 guys and all is going to be right in the Empire and everything. It's 871 01:04:57.400 --> 01:05:00.159 like, oh, there's still work to be done, there's still things that 872 01:05:00.239 --> 01:05:03.559 need to be resolved, and she's got some things that she's going to work 873 01:05:03.559 --> 01:05:08.039 out, and I just she's pissed. Yeah. I was like, I'm 874 01:05:08.039 --> 01:05:10.840 like, I loved it, I because I've walked away from it. It 875 01:05:10.880 --> 01:05:15.159 was like the end of Across the Spider Verse of like I didn't know there 876 01:05:15.199 --> 01:05:16.679 was a part three coming, but the story is setting me up for that, 877 01:05:16.760 --> 01:05:21.400 and I thought I was I was waiting for some type of you know, 878 01:05:23.480 --> 01:05:27.719 murmuring or revolt from the audience of like what that's it, But everybody 879 01:05:27.800 --> 01:05:30.679 was like fully on board with like, yeah, that's this is where we 880 01:05:30.719 --> 01:05:33.840 are. I love, love that decision to deal with a film. It 881 01:05:33.920 --> 01:05:38.199 was so good, and I think more than anything, it's also now why 882 01:05:38.280 --> 01:05:43.599 I need someone to tell me the rest of this story, because for everything 883 01:05:43.599 --> 01:05:46.440 else, like I know what happens when the Friend and Warriors go out into 884 01:05:46.440 --> 01:05:49.119 the rest of the galaxy, because there's a whole series of the books that 885 01:05:49.159 --> 01:05:53.639 tells you exactly what happens, but this is this is totally off the book, 886 01:05:54.159 --> 01:05:58.000 so nobody has any idea what she does right like, and so it's 887 01:05:58.000 --> 01:06:01.480 like, you gotta give me that story as well as I would. Just 888 01:06:01.880 --> 01:06:04.679 there's a humor that I've had to praise this person incredibly without knowing how to 889 01:06:04.679 --> 01:06:08.400 say their name. I don't know if it's Zendaya or Zandaia, but either 890 01:06:08.440 --> 01:06:12.199 one. I think at this point she is solidly my my favorite and I 891 01:06:12.199 --> 01:06:15.039 think just the best actress of her generation. Because it's just to watch her 892 01:06:15.039 --> 01:06:21.639 in this versus watch her be both the best girl next door but also the 893 01:06:23.199 --> 01:06:26.840 utter breaking of the trope of the girl next door in the Spider Man movies 894 01:06:27.360 --> 01:06:32.639 to being every troubled teenager who either was or knew in as a teenager in 895 01:06:32.719 --> 01:06:38.239 Euphoria, Like just the incredible range of these characters and all being portrayed so 896 01:06:38.480 --> 01:06:44.320 perfectly as well as like, I know these movies are not often going to 897 01:06:44.400 --> 01:06:46.159 get the acting nominations, but I think I think if she does not get 898 01:06:46.159 --> 01:06:49.320 an acting nomination in this, I will be very upset because I think she 899 01:06:49.440 --> 01:06:55.280 was just so good and you could show just those ten seconds on her face 900 01:06:55.280 --> 01:06:58.840 as her clip to like, here's why it's right right? You know she's 901 01:06:58.880 --> 01:07:01.400 she's made some interesting swing is I as a dad of a children of a 902 01:07:01.400 --> 01:07:06.519 certain age, I celebrate her earlier work on Step It Up on the Disney 903 01:07:06.559 --> 01:07:13.440 Channel. I've watched every single episode of that, and so I also know 904 01:07:14.360 --> 01:07:16.920 she can dance. Let's just say that she can. She can, but 905 01:07:17.000 --> 01:07:23.599 does she leave her friends behind? All? Right? Did you guys catch 906 01:07:23.800 --> 01:07:29.320 the little I'm assuming it's a little nod to David Lynch a little for lack 907 01:07:29.360 --> 01:07:32.880 of a better term, Lynchy and easter egg. What was wuld you say? 908 01:07:32.920 --> 01:07:38.679 I'm thinking of the disposal of the baron's corpse in the desert and the 909 01:07:38.719 --> 01:07:45.199 ants crawling on the air. Oh yeah, right, problematic for one of 910 01:07:45.239 --> 01:07:48.440 our regular little blue velvet there. Yes, exactly. That was very good. 911 01:07:48.440 --> 01:07:51.679 That was a nice nod. Yeah, I thought, I mean, 912 01:07:51.679 --> 01:07:56.119 there were there were a lot of really clever choices in terms of, you 913 01:07:56.159 --> 01:07:59.960 know, portraying these things on screen. The harvesting of water from the body 914 01:08:00.159 --> 01:08:06.559 I thought was really interesting and horrifying and beautiful at the same time. I 915 01:08:06.599 --> 01:08:12.320 thought it was lovely. And you know, we have not said the words 916 01:08:12.400 --> 01:08:14.920 yet. I will be the first to do it here at an hour and 917 01:08:14.960 --> 01:08:21.720 ten minutes. Charle May Timothy shallow May as Paul. I think he levels 918 01:08:23.640 --> 01:08:26.359 he levels up in this movie. And I think it's really interesting to see 919 01:08:26.359 --> 01:08:33.399 how quickly he's able to go from that sort of sullen character to this character 920 01:08:33.520 --> 01:08:40.279 who's who embodies that major kind of transformation of identity and ego through the course 921 01:08:40.319 --> 01:08:43.319 of this movie, because in the span of time that we get with them 922 01:08:43.960 --> 01:08:45.560 on screen, it's over the course of you know, five and a half 923 01:08:45.560 --> 01:08:49.439 hours or something. But over the space of his time in the movie, 924 01:08:49.439 --> 01:08:53.960 we get to actually see him grow and I didn't. I didn't. I'm 925 01:08:53.960 --> 01:08:57.880 not sure I expected that. I see. I've always thought of Timothy Shallamey 926 01:08:57.920 --> 01:09:01.119 as a certain kind of actor that I knew what I was getting with him, 927 01:09:01.520 --> 01:09:05.840 and this second movie, I feel like I got a little bit of 928 01:09:06.199 --> 01:09:10.560 a different Challa may. Yeah, I would agree with that. I think 929 01:09:10.600 --> 01:09:15.039 he was. You saw how much he had changed and and and how much. 930 01:09:15.479 --> 01:09:19.479 There was never amount where I doubted how much he was struggling against this 931 01:09:19.640 --> 01:09:23.840 and that he didn't want this, but that he did come to accept it. 932 01:09:24.239 --> 01:09:29.399 Yeah, there's there's a big transformation from being the I'm the confused teenager 933 01:09:29.520 --> 01:09:32.600 trying to figure out my place in the world too. I'm stepping up and 934 01:09:32.640 --> 01:09:39.560 asserting myself and in sending the power and that leap and for me to buy 935 01:09:39.600 --> 01:09:43.119 that, because that was one of my concerns when I heard he'd been cast, 936 01:09:43.159 --> 01:09:45.560 I'm like, Okay, yeah, I can get the young Paul of 937 01:09:45.640 --> 01:09:46.800 like, I don't know if I'm the Messiah or not. But then to 938 01:09:48.039 --> 01:09:54.119 play that strength and to that because he's not a physically imposing you know, 939 01:09:54.399 --> 01:09:57.279 man, he's you know, little Timothy Schaalomy. You can you know, 940 01:09:58.600 --> 01:10:00.800 Dave Batista could just you know, have him like a twig. But he 941 01:10:00.840 --> 01:10:04.680 was able to convey some of that strength in that final scene. Again that 942 01:10:05.359 --> 01:10:09.600 I was I was impressed by that of like, do I buy him as 943 01:10:09.640 --> 01:10:12.840 somebody that can rally people around him, that can be that strong leader, 944 01:10:12.880 --> 01:10:15.600 And he was able to get there. So I give him a tremendous credit 945 01:10:15.640 --> 01:10:16.960 for that. Yeah, I mean, some of the speeches he gives are 946 01:10:17.079 --> 01:10:24.760 just especially because the scene in the council with a Fremen where there's this idea 947 01:10:24.960 --> 01:10:30.399 of he has to if he wants to speak on behalf of his particular group, 948 01:10:30.920 --> 01:10:34.520 he has to kill Stilgar to take his role, and he basically comes 949 01:10:34.520 --> 01:10:40.000 in and in many ways, this is the most messianic moment I think, 950 01:10:40.039 --> 01:10:44.760 and it is one that is very is very recognizable to Christians. But I 951 01:10:44.760 --> 01:10:47.840 think also is because again Christianity is the only one of these three where is 952 01:10:47.880 --> 01:10:53.000 fully accepted that the Messiah has happened already. But I understand that there's a 953 01:10:53.000 --> 01:10:56.920 lot of predictions in certainly Judies and brasci and Islam of that this is the 954 01:10:57.039 --> 01:10:59.640 kind of thing the Messiah will do. He comes in and is like, 955 01:10:59.720 --> 01:11:04.039 all of it's the the line that I was thinking of from from Christianity is 956 01:11:04.439 --> 01:11:09.760 the aret is the law made to serve man? Or is man made to 957 01:11:09.800 --> 01:11:12.680 serve the law. And because what he comes in and says is like, 958 01:11:12.720 --> 01:11:15.680 yeah, all these traditions we have, but think about the goal is to 959 01:11:15.720 --> 01:11:18.239 make this as strong as possible. Still, Gar is officially my leader. 960 01:11:18.239 --> 01:11:20.720 But if you say that for me to speak, I have to kill him. 961 01:11:20.920 --> 01:11:24.640 He is my right hand. I can't do this without him. Why 962 01:11:24.640 --> 01:11:28.560 would I do this? And he fundamentally tells them that they have to change 963 01:11:28.560 --> 01:11:30.000 the way they've always been doing it, and he gets them to agree with 964 01:11:30.000 --> 01:11:34.600 it, and that is an incredibly messianic act. And it's again framed as 965 01:11:34.640 --> 01:11:40.479 a like they they're doing this because people have told them they should, that 966 01:11:40.479 --> 01:11:43.199 they should do this. When he comes along, right right, and the 967 01:11:43.239 --> 01:11:45.520 fact that he like he's making I think in some ways that's the only point, 968 01:11:45.640 --> 01:11:48.000 that's the point of his that I probably most agree with, that he 969 01:11:48.000 --> 01:11:51.000 should have to kill s Noilgar. And so it's just so perfectly done that 970 01:11:51.079 --> 01:11:56.640 it's done in that way. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Well, I 971 01:11:56.920 --> 01:11:59.920 you know, I think as we again, I'll try again as we can 972 01:12:00.079 --> 01:12:04.319 to wrapping this up. I think, I think we have a lot to 973 01:12:04.640 --> 01:12:15.319 appreciate in this second Venuve outing across the dunes, and I really really look 974 01:12:15.399 --> 01:12:20.439 forward to hearing how how we rate it. When we jump to Letterboxed, 975 01:12:23.439 --> 01:12:27.640 we're on Letterboxed the True Story FM's family of film podcasts. They're all part 976 01:12:27.680 --> 01:12:31.319 of the Next Reel's HQ page letterbox dot Com slash the Next Reel, and 977 01:12:31.520 --> 01:12:36.079 we are going to throw some stars at it and see where they stick. 978 01:12:38.159 --> 01:12:40.279 Steve, you want to go first? Yeah, I'm gonna give it a 979 01:12:40.319 --> 01:12:45.119 solid four and a half. I very rarely, if ever, give out 980 01:12:45.159 --> 01:12:47.960 five on a first watch of a movie, but so I'm going to give 981 01:12:47.960 --> 01:12:54.319 this the solid four and a half. And I really want to even though 982 01:12:54.359 --> 01:12:58.399 I watch them like twelve hours apart, I think watching them together again, 983 01:12:58.600 --> 01:13:00.359 back to back and really looking at it the whole story now that I know 984 01:13:00.880 --> 01:13:03.920 where things go, to look at the interplay across too. I'm really looking 985 01:13:03.920 --> 01:13:08.760 forward to viewing this is one story because really, you know, this is 986 01:13:08.800 --> 01:13:11.119 the thing I tell people. I'm going to tell people about this movie, 987 01:13:11.119 --> 01:13:14.640 like, what did I think about it like, this isn't entertainment. This 988 01:13:14.720 --> 01:13:18.560 is storytelling. This is this is the translation of a story from a printed 989 01:13:18.560 --> 01:13:24.960 book to a visual format. And so it's really an amazing story, very 990 01:13:25.000 --> 01:13:30.039 well told. This isn't you know, entertainment. This is top notch storytelling 991 01:13:30.239 --> 01:13:33.279 in all aspects of the visual medium. So four and a half and a 992 01:13:33.319 --> 01:13:38.439 big old heart from me. Oh four and a half an a heart, 993 01:13:38.520 --> 01:13:43.119 okay, Matthew. So I'm not really a letterbox person. I probably should 994 01:13:43.199 --> 01:13:46.079 become. So I think probably I'm also at four and a half, maybe 995 01:13:46.119 --> 01:13:49.520 even like four point nine, if that's the thing, because it is so 996 01:13:49.720 --> 01:13:54.880 close to being there. I wanted the eyes to be bluer. I don't 997 01:13:54.880 --> 01:13:58.479 want to. I mean, there were a couple of like legit critiques we 998 01:13:58.520 --> 01:14:02.000 had with it, but like to me, is three things all at the 999 01:14:02.039 --> 01:14:10.159 same time. It is one just beautiful movie and a fantastic example of movie 1000 01:14:10.199 --> 01:14:15.920 making, and a wonderfully told story. It is too a very good, 1001 01:14:15.319 --> 01:14:19.319 like as you said, a very relevant story that does what I think is 1002 01:14:19.319 --> 01:14:21.960 that like what I think religion should do and what I think good art should 1003 01:14:21.960 --> 01:14:27.720 do. It raises difficult questions without giving easy answers, and so it forces 1004 01:14:27.920 --> 01:14:31.359 the person experience to get to really think and have conversations like this. And 1005 01:14:31.439 --> 01:14:34.800 lastly, I think it's a masterclass in how to adapt a book for screen. 1006 01:14:35.079 --> 01:14:40.159 Yes, and particularly and then I think it did something that I think 1007 01:14:40.239 --> 01:14:42.960 is one of the hardest things to do, which is to take a work 1008 01:14:43.600 --> 01:14:47.680 where the here, where the protagonist is not a hero, and put it 1009 01:14:47.720 --> 01:14:50.039 on screen. Because again, look at David lynn David Lynch is great, 1010 01:14:50.039 --> 01:14:55.000 it's a really fun movie, but you are rooting for Paula Trads. And 1011 01:14:55.319 --> 01:14:57.039 to me, that was kind of the thing I had in my head is 1012 01:14:57.239 --> 01:15:00.119 if I end the movie rooting for Paula Trades, then it is not accurate 1013 01:15:00.159 --> 01:15:03.840 to the book. And I absolutely did. I saw this tragic and I 1014 01:15:03.840 --> 01:15:09.600 thought that was so. Yeah, I would say this is four point five 1015 01:15:09.800 --> 01:15:12.680 beating to five and going back to what I said for the first one, 1016 01:15:12.920 --> 01:15:15.840 now that I want to watch them both together, just in one sitting, 1017 01:15:15.199 --> 01:15:19.119 probably with some bathroom break because I'm getting old, but I want to watch 1018 01:15:19.119 --> 01:15:23.319 the two of them together, and then I would probably give it like I 1019 01:15:23.399 --> 01:15:26.119 think, the whole thing to me is a four four point five with the 1020 01:15:26.119 --> 01:15:30.159 original being like a three to three point five. Wow. I mean, 1021 01:15:30.199 --> 01:15:32.199 you guys are praising the movie, and I'm still shocked at how low your 1022 01:15:32.239 --> 01:15:38.079 reviews are. Your ratings are my goodness, well you know five. I 1023 01:15:38.119 --> 01:15:40.680 am no, it's out of five. But I don't do half stars, 1024 01:15:40.760 --> 01:15:45.119 and so I have no choice. The universe has proclaimed that I must give 1025 01:15:45.119 --> 01:15:48.640 this a five. Uh, and it is and I gave the last one 1026 01:15:48.640 --> 01:15:51.880 of five. I really felt very very strongly about it. And I think 1027 01:15:51.920 --> 01:15:56.960 as a visual exploration of what you can do with the tools and a reminder 1028 01:15:57.119 --> 01:16:02.239 of just how wonderful it be to really see the integration of practical and CG 1029 01:16:02.319 --> 01:16:11.279 effects at used at their very best. I think this is This is as 1030 01:16:12.520 --> 01:16:17.720 modern and sort of future looking as it is a throwback. And I love, 1031 01:16:17.920 --> 01:16:21.520 I love what they were able to do with it. My quibbles are 1032 01:16:23.079 --> 01:16:27.960 so small. My quibbles are why didn't they keep Momoa so he wouldn't go 1033 01:16:28.039 --> 01:16:31.159 make Aquaman? Like, I don't know, I probably should just give it 1034 01:16:31.159 --> 01:16:34.439 a five. I mean I did say, like, I think it's absolutely 1035 01:16:35.079 --> 01:16:38.439 We've got a long year ahead. But if this doesn't win this picture, 1036 01:16:38.439 --> 01:16:42.600 I'll be amazed, because just in terms of advancing the art of movie making 1037 01:16:42.680 --> 01:16:45.800 in a way. You know, I think film classes are going to talk 1038 01:16:45.800 --> 01:16:49.720 about this movie for years, certainly more than whatever wins, because I firmly 1039 01:16:49.760 --> 01:16:55.319 believe this movie is good enough that it won't win. Then it will be 1040 01:16:55.359 --> 01:17:00.279 talked about much more than whatever does win. I really think. So, 1041 01:16:59.760 --> 01:17:02.760 I hope, So, I hope so. I think Danny Vin is he 1042 01:17:02.840 --> 01:17:05.239 is now. I mean if he wasn't already, I mean he was, 1043 01:17:05.680 --> 01:17:10.640 but he is. He's a director. I'll see just everything that he does, 1044 01:17:10.760 --> 01:17:14.279 the name drops, and I'll see it really really great. Thank you 1045 01:17:14.319 --> 01:17:19.760 both for coming and hanging out on this fair conversation. Spicy spicy Steve Sarmento. 1046 01:17:20.800 --> 01:17:26.199 Always great to see you and hear you talk about movies and and Matthew 1047 01:17:26.319 --> 01:17:33.279 the Ethical Panda. Great see, and you are just crushing your other podcasts. 1048 01:17:33.279 --> 01:17:38.640 Here a true story, I mean daily daily episodes right now. Oh 1049 01:17:38.680 --> 01:17:43.520 my goodness. I will say the fact that eight episodes of Avatar The Last 1050 01:17:43.560 --> 01:17:47.199 Airbender and three episodes of Star Wars The Bad Batch were released within thirty six 1051 01:17:47.239 --> 01:17:53.920 hours of each other. I had a lot of caffeine. Yeah, he 1052 01:17:54.039 --> 01:17:57.159 did. You're doing you as I said, You're doing the Lord's work here 1053 01:17:57.439 --> 01:18:00.960 in podcast world. Thank you, we really push the shows are great and 1054 01:18:01.079 --> 01:18:04.119 check them out over at you just go to the Ethical Panda dot com. 1055 01:18:04.119 --> 01:18:10.319 It'll jump you right over to the landing page for Star Wars Generations and the 1056 01:18:10.399 --> 01:18:15.640 Superhero Ethics podcast, which Matthew helps. So thank you everybody for downloading and 1057 01:18:15.640 --> 01:18:18.239 listen to this show. We appreciate your time and attention. We will be 1058 01:18:18.359 --> 01:18:26.560 back next month in some crazy mixed up universe that no one would ever possibly 1059 01:18:26.640 --> 01:18:31.479 see coming. We're doing Alex Carland's Civil War. So okay, gird your 1060 01:18:31.520 --> 01:18:39.039 loins everybody. Texas and California are uniting. Until then, meeting adjourned Hondo. 1061 01:18:39.159 --> 01:18:40.960 Stay classy, Iracus