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Hello, and welcome to this special
bonus episode of Superhero Ethics. Friends were

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for the most part keeping to our
bi weekly schedule, but a show came

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out that is so important to me
and that I really loved and I really

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wanted to watch and talk about.
And my good friend Will Freeland, Marvel

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Comics expert extraordinaire who's been on this
podcast a bunch of times, is back

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to talk with me. And we're
probably gonna do a number of different episodes

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about this show because it has topics
and characters that really just like Echo through

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all of the things that I love, and I promise that will be I

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can't say the last bad pun I'm
gonna make about Echo, but probably one

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of them, hopefully it'll be the
last one, because there's really so much

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for me to talk about here.
Let's talk about Echo. It just came

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out. My friend Will Freeland has
watched it, as if I will welcome,

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say a bit about who you are. Hi, thank you for having

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me. My name is Will Freeland. I'm all over the place on the

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internet as Silver Dreamers, silver Earth
a Why. I also have a podcast

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called Hype is My Superpower. Me
and Steve Storman who's also been on the

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pod and also have had superherothics on
our pod. We talk about primarily majority

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of Marvel comics and whatever comics.
It's it's kind of like a really fun

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book club, just talk about commentary
read each week. I love it.

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I love it. I love it. You mentioned the book club aspect.

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We're actually be doing some book clubs
here on the podcast that I'll talk about

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in just a minute. But let
me actually just ask you first straight out,

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Will, what do you think of
the show? I really I liked

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it. It was it was fun. It they added so much and that's

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totally fine. It's not a it's
not a problem. The very first scene

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of the show completely threw me off. I didn't know what was happening.

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It kind of had eternal vibes for
me, like just what. I was

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so confused. But overall, honestly, I had a great time with the

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show. The I don't think there's
a single side character that I didn't like.

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The humor was well placed and well
timed. It wasn't over the top,

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and each character kind of had their
moment of like it was captivating.

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I was binging this thing at like
three in the morning, and I was

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completely wide awake for it and it's
it's worth the five episode sit down.

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It was great. Yeah, it
really is. It really is. And

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for me as an amputee, obviously, this is a show that this is

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a character that really resonated with me
that I was so excited about that I

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was so nervous about and it really
hit on every cylinder And I'm going to

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talk about that a lot particularly,
and it has meant so much to me

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that I was able to kind of
take this feeling of, you know,

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I'm an amputee, I'm seeing myself
on screen. I'm seeing the issues I

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go with from like the larger stuff, but just the moment to moment stuff

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that most people don't think about.
I'm seeing that on screen. And then

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they're going to go online and hear, you know, from deaf people,

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from Native people, from women,
from so many others who saw themselves in

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this. In many ways, I
kind of feel like this is a kind

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of a masterclass on intersectionality in terms
of what we got in this show,

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and we'll talk about all that,
but also it was I've seen shows that

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try to be like, we're going
to be social justice and we're gonna check

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this box and this box and this
box, and they forget to actually be

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a good show. And this isn't
that like from the moment, like the

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fight scenes are very well choreographed,
the history and background is interially done,

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all of the characters are engaging.
Yeah, I just everything about it.

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And I would admit I had some
superhero fatigue recently, and even some I

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know hard to say to some some
folks out there, but some Marvel fatigue.

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I haven't watched Hecred Invasion. I
haven't watched Loki season two. Some

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of the other stuff that i'd seen
was the I've heard Loki season two is

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pretty good. I just didn't like
Look season one. That's a whole other

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matter. But uh yeah, I
just more than anything, I think I

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walked away from this thinking the Marvel
Netflix universe is back, you know,

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not that it's quite the same.
And I we can talk about continuity in

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a minute, because I think they
made it pretty clear that this is not

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the same continuity as the Marvel Netflix
universe, but the tone of it.

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Kingpin felt much more like Kingpin than
he did in the Hawkeye show. Freaking

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as Daredevil was back, which I
granted a small scene, but I had

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no idea. Yeah, this just
it felt like Marvel, like the spirit

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of the Marvel mc the Netflix MCU
was back. I absolutely agree. I

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it's funny because and you know,
the first like twenty minutes of the first

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episode is the one that has all
of the like cameos outside of Kingpin has

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like the cameos and like the flashbacks
and like the cool, fun, holy

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crap and Starry Double kind of stuff. And Yep, that is exactly what

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I've been saying Marvel's never gonna do. And so I'm so happy that they

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did it and just straight up proved
me. It's like they were listening to

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an episode of my podcast and they
were just like, oh, oh,

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he thinks that okay. Because I've
always said I've always said that it's too

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expensive. There's no way they're going
to spend the money on random cameo appearances

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for one scene like that to make
the universe actually feel connected in each individual

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show. There's no way they're going
to do that. But they did.

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They did. They brought in Charlie
Cox, they did the I mean,

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it's just showing the same scene from
Hawkeye, but they had a scene with

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Jeremy Renner and or a handful of
scenes with Jeremy Renner in it. They

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they you know, at the end, they had rocks On on the gas

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station, like they had these bigger
universe name drops that for rocks On song

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gonna cost him anything, but they
can have like, oh, in this

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world, there are other things like
having Kingpin invest in like this amazing tech

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for for Maya to use and then
for healing his eye. Like God,

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like, you don't think of you
think of Kingpin. You think money,

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crime, mob boss type stuff.
You don't think of him having the money

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to go and spend on tech.
And the fact that they had that,

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and it's just like it doesn't even
they don't have to explain that this epatch

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with the blue light on it is
superhealing and all that kind of stuff and

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and and like that's the world of
the MCU and Marvel that I want to

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live in. Tony Stark isn't the
only one that flexes tech. It doesn't

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have to be an Iron Man or
a Spider Man show to have tech that

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like shows the world is advancing in
ways that we just don't in ours.

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And it's ah so much fun.
I loved it. I'm so glad you

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brought that up because it hits for
me in two very different ways. One

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is about Wilson Fisk that I want
to talk about because to me, that

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scene is essential for understanding Fisk,
but also because for me, and I

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want to be clear, I am
a disabled person, both some mental stuff

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but also particularly physical. In terms
of my amputation, deafness is not I

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am not deaf or heart of hearing. And while there's a lot of overlap

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between deafness and disability, a lot
with a lot of deaf folks don't say

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that deafness is disability. So I'm
speaking about how that scene hit me as

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a disabled person. I'm not deaf, so so take all this with a

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grain of salt. And if deaf
people have very different feelings about this,

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I'm happy to listen to that.
But for me, that scene made me

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cry so much. First for all
the king the Kingpin reasons, we will

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listen to Fisk reasons, but also
because you've probably heard me talk about this.

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A lot of my fans have heard
me talk about this. I and

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a lot of other disabled people are
often very frustrated by if we appear in

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science fiction or fantasy. Yes,
the character might be disabled, but very

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quickly the science, the crazy science, technology or the magic is able to

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basically erase the disability to a point
where like and that's an interesting story idea,

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But then at that point the character
is no longer someone that that person's

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life is no longer something that like
disabled folks relate to in any way,

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and or like many of us.
Again, I'm trying to speak not in

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generalities, but just these ideas I'm
talking about are widely understood by a lot

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of other folks in these communities,
and so like to have it where there

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is this incredible technology, but it's
not technology to make her hearing, because

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you know, if you remember,
even in Hawkeye, she actually says to

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the Hawkeye like that he re lies
too much on technology, and that's kind

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of a critique he has, and
that she clearly like she is deaf,

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that's who she is. She doesn't
want to fix that necessarily. So what

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the technology does is to allow him
to better communicate with her using sign language.

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And it is clearly like sci fi
technology, at least as far as

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I know, it's possible that someone's
actually coming pretty close to inventing that already

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and if they haven't, you know, go ahead and do it, because

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it certainly seems like it would be
possible. But so just seeing that moment,

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to me, that felt like people
who understand these concerns and issues are

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very involved in making this show because
it was you know it to me,

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it's kind of like the difference between
technology that would fix a person and it

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like fixes a word of using a
huge parenthesis, because that's part of the

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point is that it's not people don't
need to be fixed, but like,

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you know, you could give someone
like, oh, hey, your proalysis

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is fixed, you're no longer in
a wheelchair, or like if they gave

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them like their wheelchair had nanotech so
that whenever they were at a step,

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they could like instantly generate a ramp. You know, like that would be

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like awesome science fiction technology that's about
still helping a person who has the disabilities.

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So it just that moment hit to
me on that part at least I'll

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talk about It wasn't fist thing in
a minute, but you just kind of

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respond. It was just like every
time I complain about like Yoda dropping the

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cane and bouncing around and all this
kind of stuff. Or like Avatar and

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all the ableism of that, like
this is what I mean, this is

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what we want. Yeah, that
was phenomenal. I like, I thought

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it was just such a cool application
of technology. And I love that they

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played it in a way that you
could kind of hear the translation in Fisk's

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ear as it was finning. I
loved that. And then like as soon

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as Maya called him out and I
was just like, you never even bothered

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to learn asl to communicate with me. It made me feel so guilty for

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being so excited about having this technology. And I was like, wait,

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no, there literally is and has
been a way for them to communicate.

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He just never put in the f
ah damn oh no. And my part

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of the problem it was it just
it spiraled for a good like thirty seconds

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while you're trying to watch the show, and I was like, man,

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that is really well done. I
feel like they they pulled in and again

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like as you're saying, okay,
I am not the I'm not disabled physically,

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and I like, I don't you
know, I'm not hard of hearing

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other than like just have a thick
skull, but like so I don't know

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what it's like to be on the
other side of that conversation. And from

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my perspective, it seemed like,
and you've been saying this a couple of

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times, but like it's it seemed
like they really put in the effort to

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really tell this story from Maya's perspective
as a deaf person, and like you

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have your classic I was a child, you shouldn't have let me go,

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But then you have the extended family
being like I was also in pain,

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like and there's that classic storytelling of
like whose pain was greater, And the

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fact that we never actually had a
conversation means that you feel like I was

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never hurting. But then there's these
other conversations and story beats where only a

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an amputee or a deaf person would
have this kind of conversation with people,

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and that they like they were able
to do it and weave it into the

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storytelling. It felt like seamlessly.
That was that was so impressive to watch

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as an able bodied hearing person.
That was that. I loved it.

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It was great. Yeah, well, and I really love what you brought

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up though about how she is like
wait, you know you could see her

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being like, oh my god,
I'm so impressed, and so, you

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know, honored that you've done You've
made all this effort to make all this

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technology, although it's also very possible. He's just like, you know,

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he just you know, called up
his friends at rocks On and said,

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hey, sure do this, you
know or whatever. But also she called,

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like you said, she calls him
out and says, but you haven't

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done the work. And I thought
that was to me, that was a

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moment that said so much about Wilson
Fisk, because what I noticed was iman

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kind of go through a couple of
points here to as a larger thing.

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But let me start with this and
see if you saw it the same way.

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I felt like the show made it
very very clear, without any doubt

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that yes, he is manipulating her, Yes he is using her as a

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tool in his army, but his
feeling of familial love towards her and like

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treating her like a daughter is one
hundred percent real. Absolutely, And the

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because one of the things I noticed
was that like the first scene where we

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see them kind of really interacting as
the story goes forward, not that's more

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flashbacky stuff where she's gotten in trouble
with the law. I think she was

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like stealing a motorcycle or something,
and he shows up just like you know,

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it's kind of like, you know, he hears about her in trouble,

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and he goes to her in the
middle of the night, and he

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has with him an ASL interpreter who
clearly he to some extent, trusts not

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to talk about the things that they're
gonna say. Now clearly doesn't trust entirely.

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As we learn, she does not
come to a good end. But

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part of what that told me was
that he had already thought about this,

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and like, I don't think that
he is the It's not that he said,

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oh, yeah, she's deaf,
but I'm gonna forget about that and

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not really care much about it.
I think he very clearly had gone to

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great lengths to say, a member
of my family is deaf. I want

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to make sure that I'm able to
deal with that and to communicate with that

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at all times. But also just
the way he approaches the world is not

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I am going to like take time
away and sit in a classroom and learn,

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but I'm gonna throw money at this
problem and fix it. Yeah,

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And to me, like you know
more about the character in comics, but

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from what I've seen in just the
MCU shows that felt like a perfect illustration

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of who Fisk is. Oh yeah, I mean so so the MCU,

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for all of its grandioseness, is
much more down to earth than the comics.

210
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Yeah, and and the way that
they go about problem solving, even

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though it is otherworldly sometimes is a
lot more practical. And the where I'm

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going with this is literally just yesterday
I had a conversation with my wife about,

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Oh, if we had money,
what we could throw Like there there

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are problems in our lives that you
can just throw money at and you don't

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have to worry about it. Like
plumbing. I don't know plumbing. I'm

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not going to put in the work
to learn plumbing. I'm gonna throw some

217
00:16:42.080 --> 00:16:48.480
money out of plumber to go and
do that for me, right, uh,

218
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and so like Fisks. And then
and that's another freaking parallel between me

219
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and Fisk that it's stressing me out. But like he's he saw you know,

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he he adopted this a young girl
who is deaf in an amputee and

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instead of learning how to asl he
throws money at the situation, gets an

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interpreter, and then down the line
he has more money, and so what

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more money? What can more money
do? Oh throw in an interpretation,

224
00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:22.960
contact lens and and a camera and
a translator in his ear, so he

225
00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:26.640
doesn't have to put in the work. Like it's it's what what can what

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problems can I solve with money?
So I can focus on the things I

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can't be solved with money. That's
how I how I like to see the

228
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world. And apparently that's how a
Fisk sees the world and that's not how

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our hero say sees the world.
And and that's a problem for me.

230
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Yeah, no, I get well, I'm going to question the use of

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the word hero, which is something
we'll get to in a bit sure,

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but like to me, I also
think about the scene that you know,

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when she's a young girl and he
takes her and or he coming to pick

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her up from school and she wants
to buy I Scream and the ice cream

235
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guy is like, you know,
really rude to her and ablest and you

236
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know clearly like really hurts her.
That scene was one of like the thing

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about Fisk is particularly the Daredevil show, particularly in season one, it's like

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fifty one percent a Daredevil origin show
and forty nine percent of Wilson Fisk origin

239
00:18:22.039 --> 00:18:30.519
show a Kingpin because you met Vincentinafrio
manages to make him so incredibly compelling and

240
00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:37.079
so incredibly sympathetic in ways where you're
like, there are times in my life

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where I feel red hot anger,
and there's a part of me that wants

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to use my fists and go out
and fix the problem that I'm seeing.

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And A I'm not very good at
fighting, so it would be a very

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bad idea. But also like I
just think morally that's not the right thing

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to do. And like so when
he gets out of that limo and it

246
00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:04.440
was just shot so perfectly to build
the suspense and he starts walking towards that

247
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ice cream guy, I had this
really uncomfortable mix of dread and exhilaration because

248
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I was so afraid of what he
was going to do to that ice cream

249
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guy, and I so badly wanted
to see him utterly kick the ass of

250
00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:26.359
the ice cream guy. Yeah,
you know, and like it also the

251
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way that they did that scene where
he was so in touch with his emotions,

252
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it felt like, oh, this
is early Kingpin, Like you know,

253
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like by the time we get to
like Daredevil's season three, that I

254
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guess there's two there's two ways to
think about it. One, it's like

255
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there's the experienced Kingpin who he's going
to have more control of his emotions to

256
00:19:59.319 --> 00:20:03.640
deal withituations like that, because you
only ever see out quote unquote outbursts to

257
00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:11.519
that degree seldom, seldomly in the
later seasons. However, it could also

258
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be said that this is a Kingdon
who is in control of his emotions until

259
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family gets brought gets involved, because
when Matt starts messing up or poking Fisk

260
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with about Vanessa and stuff, that's
when he loses it. So you see

261
00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:33.079
someone who is belittling and disrespecting his
chosen family. Yeah, that's gonna that's

262
00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:38.319
gonna bubble up. Also, But
that scene was it didn't go where I

263
00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:42.200
thought it was gonna go. Like
I thought he was either just going to

264
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he was going to make a statement
to him, say something, or he

265
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was going to actually just kill the
guy. And then for him to do

266
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that like I want to keep Maya
relatively innocent and make a phone call and

267
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try to replace it and then have
her show up. Just that was that

268
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that's her origin, Like that's her
like Kingpin, Queen Pin origin story.

269
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She goes and kicks them twice with
her with her with her foot, and

270
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it's just like, oh my god, this is literally I was watching it

271
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with one of my partners and as
she goes over, like my partner says,

272
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this is way too dark for Disney, but I really hope she kicks

273
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the guy too. But I was
like, that's so, because you're right,

274
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it's her origin, it's her,
and I think part of that also

275
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is, like, you know,
her, like her father had kind of

276
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like exposed her to some of that. But yeah, and I want to

277
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talk a lot about her character to
be sure, but just because we started

278
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with Kingpin, for me, it's
that, like, I think you're right,

279
00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:48.759
it's that he's upset that he sees
her disrespected, but more even more

280
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so, I think it's that he
sees the pain on her face. And

281
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you know, obviously this is a
daughter, not a mother figure. But

282
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I think it really highlights that for
Fisk, his central motivation is protection.

283
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He wants to protect the people he
loves and cares about, which then becomes

284
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and then we see, in a
brilliant end scene, becomes all the people

285
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of his city, you know,
And that's a to me, that's also

286
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where him and Daredevil are so is
like, you know, you always hear

287
00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:19.720
about the superhero being like, this
is my city and you can't do this

288
00:22:19.799 --> 00:22:25.160
in my city. And I think
that's Fisks motivation as well. Oh absolutely

289
00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:27.079
can't do You can't do this to
my mother, you can't do this to

290
00:22:27.079 --> 00:22:33.039
my daughter, You can't do this
to my city. Oh man. Yeah,

291
00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:40.200
that end credit scene is impressive.
Yeah. Well, last thing about

292
00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:41.240
that I want to say. I
want to say, this is the theory

293
00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:45.079
that I have, and I'm wondering
if you're feeling the same for me.

294
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One thing they also did in this
is to say, yes, these are

295
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the same characters, but this is
a different continuity, this particular universe,

296
00:22:56.440 --> 00:23:00.000
and it may well be that,
like they've added now the other MCU Netflix

297
00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:03.839
shows to the official timeline on Disney
Plus, so it maybe that they're saying

298
00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:07.759
that, like in a different continuity, because remember we're in the multiverse,

299
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so that all those other shows are
canon, just not in this universe,

300
00:23:12.319 --> 00:23:18.759
but that this particular Wilson, Fisk
and Daredel we were watching are not the

301
00:23:18.279 --> 00:23:22.000
exact same ones from the other one. And and the things that really stood

302
00:23:22.039 --> 00:23:26.640
out to me about that were.
It's very brief, but they show him

303
00:23:26.680 --> 00:23:32.519
looking at that white picture, the
one that he buys in Netflix to when

304
00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:36.920
he meets Vanessa. That one was
horizontal. This one is vertical, and

305
00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:38.839
it's a little bit different, and
it's just there's just such an interesting change

306
00:23:38.839 --> 00:23:41.799
that felt to me like it was
very specifically being like, no, this

307
00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:47.200
is not the same, Yeah,
exactly same but different. Yeah. And

308
00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:49.799
then again the timing of it,
he is now doing his mayoral run when

309
00:23:49.799 --> 00:23:53.240
it already happened in those To me, it just was like, yeah,

310
00:23:53.240 --> 00:23:56.359
this is this is this is a
different continuity. Yeah, for sure,

311
00:23:56.839 --> 00:24:03.880
absolutely, man Oka ahead, Oh
no, I'm just I'm just thinking,

312
00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:10.960
just thinking about the characters in the
show. They they did a lot with

313
00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:17.880
echo, most of them. So
I guess to fulfill my role because you

314
00:24:17.880 --> 00:24:22.759
bring me on to these comic based
shows to talk about the difference between the

315
00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:29.759
show and the comic, like ninety
eight percent of this is original and new

316
00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:38.559
in the comics. So specifically,
just from the very beginning, Maya is

317
00:24:38.599 --> 00:24:47.319
a choc Daw tribe is from the
Chocta chalk. I think it's Chocta is

318
00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:53.039
how do you spell it? C
h O c t A w In the

319
00:24:53.079 --> 00:24:57.680
comics, she's Cheyenne, and I
think it's just because of where they decided

320
00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:07.880
to the the show. That's not
a big deal. She's not necessarily very

321
00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:12.880
in touch with her heritage in the
comics, and so what tribe she's a

322
00:25:12.920 --> 00:25:19.079
part of, what tribe she's from, is not a big deal. The

323
00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:30.640
uh, this that like spiral power
that has been passed down through her lineage.

324
00:25:30.200 --> 00:25:37.279
That's not a thing. In the
comics. She has photographic reflexes,

325
00:25:37.559 --> 00:25:45.039
just like task Master, and that's
her only power. And they get around

326
00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:48.119
she is deaf in the comics.
She's not amputee in the comics, but

327
00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:52.519
she is deaf. But she's such
a good lip reader that they just kind

328
00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:59.200
of ignore that as much as they
want. And so like, if someone

329
00:25:59.240 --> 00:26:00.400
is talking to her in a ask, she can't understand what they're saying.

330
00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:04.720
What they're saying, but like and
so like that's kind of the only time

331
00:26:04.759 --> 00:26:08.240
it really comes up is when people
are looking away from her and trying to

332
00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:11.759
talk to her, and she's like, and so she speaks, so she's

333
00:26:11.960 --> 00:26:12.920
you know, she says, I
can't understand what you're saying. You have

334
00:26:12.920 --> 00:26:18.000
to look at me. But so
as far as she can. She can

335
00:26:18.039 --> 00:26:23.759
speak in the yeah, yeah,
and so like, yeah, it's just

336
00:26:23.839 --> 00:26:27.000
like a oh, hey, by
the way, kind of a thing that

337
00:26:27.160 --> 00:26:34.359
doesn't get it's it's not part of
her identity or how people interact with her

338
00:26:34.680 --> 00:26:38.839
much, just because it's such a
non big deal because she's such so good

339
00:26:38.839 --> 00:26:41.960
at lip reading, which is kind
of weird, but it is what it

340
00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:49.000
is. Uh, just re Most
recently in the comics, she became a

341
00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:56.599
host of The Phoenix Horse, which
is a whole other thing. And she

342
00:26:56.759 --> 00:27:02.240
hasn't done a whole she's been she's
a side character. She's only been on

343
00:27:02.440 --> 00:27:08.200
she's only been a title character I
think twice most recently, like this last

344
00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:15.519
year was Daredevil, an Echo and
I and she's been like she's been an

345
00:27:15.519 --> 00:27:18.240
Avengers, but on the New Avengers, you know, she was involved in

346
00:27:18.279 --> 00:27:23.240
Secret and Asian and the other stuff. But she's she doesn't have a whole

347
00:27:23.240 --> 00:27:29.839
lot of like primary screen time,
and so they kind of had they kind

348
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:33.599
of had a blank slate to work
with for the MCU and bringing her in

349
00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:38.240
and yeah, everything they've done so
far has just been fantastic. But it's

350
00:27:38.279 --> 00:27:42.079
all very original, and I don't
I don't even think there's a character reference

351
00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:48.839
for them to pull from as far
as like this chocked out legacy and stuff

352
00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:55.920
that that is completely original to the
best of my knowledge. I mean what

353
00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:59.400
my understanding is that it is original
to the MCU, that it is not

354
00:27:59.799 --> 00:28:03.640
in d from whul Cloth, it
is actual chalk Taw legend and things like

355
00:28:03.680 --> 00:28:07.640
that, And to that extent,
I am glad in some ways that this

356
00:28:07.759 --> 00:28:11.799
is new because the idea of stan
Lee or someone like that doing their version

357
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:17.680
of the character here much later.
But like stan Lee doing chalk Tall legends

358
00:28:17.720 --> 00:28:21.039
in the nineteen seventies does not strike
me as a great idea. Oh god,

359
00:28:21.640 --> 00:28:26.039
yeah, oh yeah, Mike got
introduced in the late late nineties.

360
00:28:26.880 --> 00:28:33.920
Yeah, she's a pretty good character. Yeah. But like when I started

361
00:28:33.960 --> 00:28:38.319
the show and it starts with this
beautiful depiction of the chalk Taw creation myth,

362
00:28:38.359 --> 00:28:44.119
at least the creation myth of humans, I literally stopped the show to

363
00:28:44.200 --> 00:28:48.519
make sure I was watching the same
thing because with my thought that was kind

364
00:28:48.559 --> 00:28:53.920
of be like referencing Netflix MCU and
that it was based in Hawkeye, which

365
00:28:55.000 --> 00:29:00.200
was a very kind of like low
powered show, like everyone there is trained

366
00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:04.599
in ways, but I don't think
anyone in Hawkeye really has superpowers such such

367
00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:10.519
as we talk about them. And
so to start with like super mystical thing,

368
00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:12.440
I was like, did I watch
start the wrong thing or something?

369
00:29:12.559 --> 00:29:18.079
Turned out obviously it did not,
and I wound up really loving it because

370
00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:22.759
you said you got kind of the
Eternals vibe from it. I admit I

371
00:29:22.759 --> 00:29:26.079
watched Eternals once and have now mostly
blanked out of my brain, so it's

372
00:29:26.119 --> 00:29:33.519
very possible the same. What I
got, though, was some echoes of

373
00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:37.839
the I'm gonna say Atlantean because I
don't remember the pronunciation of the I think

374
00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:45.319
Adalon, the Native, the group
that is referred to as Atlanteans in Black

375
00:29:45.359 --> 00:29:52.759
Panther Two, who are also based
very much in Native Indigenous communities, but

376
00:29:52.920 --> 00:30:00.480
of Central America. And what I
really loved was that it felt me like,

377
00:30:00.680 --> 00:30:04.039
you know, like if you take
like tribal myths from like Spain and

378
00:30:04.079 --> 00:30:08.160
tribal myths for like, you know, Sweden, they probably are going to

379
00:30:08.200 --> 00:30:12.359
bear some connection to each other.
That's a lot more than like they would

380
00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:17.240
have to something from Japan. But
they're still vastly different because they're on you

381
00:30:17.279 --> 00:30:19.519
know, thousands of miles apart.
Sure, this felt to me like it

382
00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:22.279
had a little bit of some of
the same. And again, I'm not

383
00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:26.880
a visual person, so I might
be completely making this up or I was

384
00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:30.440
like projecting it, but it felt
like it had a little bit of the

385
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:34.039
same kind of idea in terms of
the visual construction of it, but was

386
00:30:34.039 --> 00:30:38.160
still very unique and different, very
you know, to these two different like

387
00:30:40.480 --> 00:30:45.079
communities that that MCU is introducing that
are are based in you know, our

388
00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:49.720
own world's understanding of you know,
the the myths and stories from native indigenous

389
00:30:49.759 --> 00:30:55.559
Native American communities and indigenous communities.
So yeah, I really liked that and

390
00:30:55.599 --> 00:30:57.640
I but I was definitely very confused. I was like, where are we

391
00:30:57.720 --> 00:31:03.240
going with this? And because I
didn't I I didn't see it coming at

392
00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:07.440
all that echo would have superpowers.
And I really loved the way that they

393
00:31:07.480 --> 00:31:11.200
did it and this kind of slow
build and the fact that they the introduction

394
00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:18.000
of each of these different chalk Taw
legends everything from the like, you know,

395
00:31:18.680 --> 00:31:22.920
uh, the creation myth to hey, by the way, lacrosse is

396
00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:26.279
a sport based in something from Native
Americans, which, by the way,

397
00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:32.279
I believe that in the upcoming Olympics, the Iroquois nation which has members of

398
00:31:32.359 --> 00:31:37.440
both American and Canadian citizenship are gone
because it's but yeah, so this acknowledgement

399
00:31:37.480 --> 00:31:40.799
of like, yeah, it's not
exactly lacrosse, but it's clearly the sport

400
00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:44.680
that our modern day sport of lacrosse
was based in to the whole thing about

401
00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:49.599
the light horsemen and the significance of
the braid, which they never commented on,

402
00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:53.799
but you know they in the film
they say, you know, braids

403
00:31:53.799 --> 00:31:57.359
were supposed to be for warriors,
and that's not for women. As the

404
00:31:57.400 --> 00:32:01.000
show goes on, Echo is wearing
more and more of her hair in a

405
00:32:01.079 --> 00:32:05.440
braid, un told by the last
week fight scene, or actually I think

406
00:32:05.480 --> 00:32:07.440
it was when she comes to her
family after It's a braid all the way

407
00:32:07.480 --> 00:32:13.440
down. It was just I just
loved it, And I thought the way

408
00:32:13.480 --> 00:32:17.200
that they weaved her story into those
creation stories and legends of her people was

409
00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:23.960
just utterly fantastic. Yeah, absolutely, and with her mom being oh,

410
00:32:24.240 --> 00:32:29.000
it's just and I actually kind of
liked that they didn't dive into one of

411
00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:36.720
those things where it's like were you
paying attention? But in the car crash,

412
00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:40.400
when it looked like Maya was checking
her mom's pulse but she did it

413
00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:46.160
with both hands and it looked like
she was trying to heal her mom in

414
00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:51.599
the car crash, like right after
the crash. Yeah, and then you

415
00:32:51.720 --> 00:32:55.440
find out, you know, four
episodes later, that that's the motion that

416
00:32:55.480 --> 00:33:00.599
her mom would do to do her
healing ability, and it's just it's it

417
00:33:00.759 --> 00:33:07.079
just adds that extra little heartbreak of
Maya trying to heal her mom and it's

418
00:33:07.079 --> 00:33:14.640
just ah man, but but there
that was a complete tangent. But uh,

419
00:33:14.680 --> 00:33:19.160
bringing in her mom for the last
like story to bring everything together as

420
00:33:19.200 --> 00:33:24.960
far as like showing different origins of
the past. I loved the way that

421
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:29.680
her mom was just like you need
to be you need to be brave and

422
00:33:29.680 --> 00:33:31.480
it has you know, the episode
one flashback, you need to be cunning,

423
00:33:31.519 --> 00:33:36.559
like the episode two flashback, and
just the way that just in the

424
00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:46.559
way that they chose to tell the
story worked so almost flawlessly to keep everything

425
00:33:46.759 --> 00:33:54.160
wrapped up into one coherent book.
For lack of a better phrase, Yeah,

426
00:33:54.279 --> 00:33:59.759
it was was. It was awesome. It felt like you actually had

427
00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:07.440
one team, one good writer,
making one good season of a show and

428
00:34:07.559 --> 00:34:10.519
not like something If this had come
out weekly, I'd be so scared that

429
00:34:10.559 --> 00:34:16.280
by episode five something would have been
like reshot or changed because of X y

430
00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:22.599
Z feedback andugh, just it was, man, it was. It felt

431
00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:27.719
like a like a complete thought,
and I hope that they feel like the

432
00:34:27.719 --> 00:34:31.480
showrunners feel like they did what they
set out to do, because it felt

433
00:34:31.519 --> 00:34:36.400
like, yeah, no, I
think it's very true. And I know

434
00:34:36.440 --> 00:34:39.559
we've heard stories about that they released
it all at once because Marvel doesn't believe

435
00:34:39.559 --> 00:34:43.880
in this and I don't know the
behind the scenes, but thought I thought

436
00:34:43.880 --> 00:34:46.239
it works much better because it's all
as one. And again also that's a

437
00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:52.320
throwback to the Netflix shows that were
also released all as one. And just

438
00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:54.679
one more thing on her as well. I love that one of the things

439
00:34:54.679 --> 00:34:59.920
that is praised about her and said, this is something you embody from you.

440
00:35:00.039 --> 00:35:06.639
Her ancestry is her ferocity, because
I think ferocity is something we often

441
00:35:06.639 --> 00:35:08.599
think of as a negative thing for
a hero, because it's about, you

442
00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:15.039
know, like Kingpin is ferocious,
Like it's about like being able to almost

443
00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:17.599
kind of like berserker rage is what
comes to mind from that, and so

444
00:35:17.719 --> 00:35:22.920
to me, it is still balanced
with healing and the fact that she's she

445
00:35:22.920 --> 00:35:27.239
has two different opportunities to kill Fisk, or at least one to actually do

446
00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:30.199
it, one to try, and
both cases she doesn't. And in the

447
00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:35.159
second when she literally tries to heal
him, which doesn't seem like it worked,

448
00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:38.360
which is something we'll talk about later, which was curious. But yeah,

449
00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:43.239
I just thought that like naming her
ferocity, but also showing that unlike

450
00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:45.559
Fisk, she can keep control of
it, I think was a really beautiful

451
00:35:45.559 --> 00:35:55.000
thing. Absolutely, So is she
a hero, She's a Netflix hero,

452
00:35:57.119 --> 00:36:04.760
which is so different. I don't
know, it's I have. I have

453
00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:10.480
trouble calling most title characters in the
MCU heroes if you use the definition that

454
00:36:10.519 --> 00:36:15.400
they don't kill, because most of
them do, and it's usually unnamed bad

455
00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:24.719
guys. So let's just say unnamed
hired thugs and terrorists. So how do

456
00:36:24.760 --> 00:36:30.239
you define a hero? So intering? I've never heard that definition before,

457
00:36:30.239 --> 00:36:31.880
and I would say, you're I
don't think it's a single superhero I've ever

458
00:36:31.880 --> 00:36:37.320
seen on screen who doesn't kill,
just because I don't think that they understand

459
00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:40.760
how bodies react to the massive concussive
forces that even like Batman's fists do.

460
00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:45.559
But that's the other thing I think
for me, the way I would define

461
00:36:45.559 --> 00:36:47.920
a hero. And we've done whole
episodes about this. It's a very complicated

462
00:36:47.960 --> 00:36:51.679
topic. But you know, if
I had to use a brief rubric,

463
00:36:51.800 --> 00:36:55.639
it's are you using your powers?
And your powers can be superpowers, your

464
00:36:55.679 --> 00:36:59.400
powers just can be your fighting ability. Your powers can be your money or

465
00:36:59.400 --> 00:37:01.960
your political influence, whatever. But
are you using the power that you have

466
00:37:04.280 --> 00:37:10.880
to protect the things that are personally
relevant to you, which can be yourself,

467
00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:15.480
your family, the people you love
and care about, or are you

468
00:37:15.559 --> 00:37:20.159
doing it in a more altruistic way
to protect like people? Are you working

469
00:37:20.199 --> 00:37:24.199
to protect people you don't know basically? And you know, so for me,

470
00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:28.920
like I think that most of the
Netflix people are heroes, and I

471
00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:32.400
think that's kind of the thing for
Jessica Jones is when she's the most reluctant

472
00:37:32.400 --> 00:37:37.320
hero of them in some ways nick
Cage. But when she goes from like

473
00:37:37.400 --> 00:37:40.760
I'm just gonna like look out for
me and my sister to I'm going to

474
00:37:40.760 --> 00:37:45.440
look out for like others, you
know, and she should grumpy and reluctant

475
00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:49.079
about it. But that's when she
becomes a hero or's like Punisher to me,

476
00:37:49.639 --> 00:37:53.800
never become because Punisher is always about
his own personal revenge quests, and

477
00:37:54.280 --> 00:37:57.440
I love his character, to be
clear, but I just don't think he's

478
00:37:57.440 --> 00:38:00.719
a hero. I think he's a
villain in a lot of ways in the

479
00:38:00.800 --> 00:38:04.440
MCU at least, But to me, I feel like she hasn't quite crossed

480
00:38:04.440 --> 00:38:08.880
that line. Like she kind of
protects all the people at the even there,

481
00:38:08.920 --> 00:38:13.599
like it's her family who protects everyone
else at the pow wow. And

482
00:38:14.119 --> 00:38:16.480
admit, I don't really know why
Fisk wanted to like kill all the people

483
00:38:16.480 --> 00:38:20.159
at the pow wow, and that's
a whole other thing. I think it

484
00:38:20.199 --> 00:38:22.559
was mostly just to like cause the
disturbance so that he could get to Echo.

485
00:38:23.159 --> 00:38:28.320
But yeah, I think she's she
is heroic in many ways, and

486
00:38:28.360 --> 00:38:31.199
she has great power and she uses
that great power and she resists killing her

487
00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:35.639
enemies when they're you know, not
in the middle of a fight, which

488
00:38:35.639 --> 00:38:38.079
I think is heroic. But yeah, I think she's still very much a

489
00:38:38.320 --> 00:38:43.519
gray character who the heroes can be
gray. But like, I don't know

490
00:38:43.519 --> 00:38:45.880
where she's gonna I think she's gonna
be. My sense is that she will

491
00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:52.000
be an antagonist to Daredevil and maybe
by the end take, Like I don't

492
00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:55.079
know if this is actually a comparison
that people have drawn before. But I

493
00:38:55.079 --> 00:39:00.559
can see her very much becoming the
Catwoman to Daredevil's Batman. You know,

494
00:39:00.679 --> 00:39:05.320
Catwoman is never quite a hero,
and in some ways you're like Batman,

495
00:39:05.400 --> 00:39:08.119
do you treat her more like a
villain less like a villain because she is,

496
00:39:08.760 --> 00:39:12.519
like you think she has a purer
heart, or because she looks so

497
00:39:12.519 --> 00:39:15.079
good in those tight leather pants,
and certainly about the writers, but like

498
00:39:16.519 --> 00:39:21.639
you know, she takes hero turns. She helps Batman, but often for

499
00:39:21.760 --> 00:39:24.000
like all right, fine, I'll
help you kind of reasons. And yeah,

500
00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:27.199
so I don't know if that's a
comparison that's been made before, because

501
00:39:27.239 --> 00:39:30.760
I know her and Daredevil have relationships
in the comics. I imagine she will

502
00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:36.440
wind up teaming up with Daredevil in
some very reluctant way against King Penn in

503
00:39:36.519 --> 00:39:38.840
the show, kind of like Electra
does. But I think she will remain

504
00:39:38.960 --> 00:39:49.519
some kind of Morley Gray, not
quite heroic figure. Yeah, yeah,

505
00:39:49.599 --> 00:39:53.440
so I guess to the comic book
nerd, the knee jerk reaction is like,

506
00:39:53.639 --> 00:40:00.480
uh no, that's Electra. But
right, that doesn't mean you can

507
00:40:00.519 --> 00:40:06.119
only have one Catwoman to your Batman. So that's time. I was gonna

508
00:40:06.119 --> 00:40:09.880
say, God, God forbid that. Uh, Marvel have numerous characters who

509
00:40:09.920 --> 00:40:15.840
play similar roles for each other.
Yeah, heaven, Heaven's Heaven's forbid?

510
00:40:15.119 --> 00:40:22.960
Uh I yeah, I guess.
The way I see it is like she

511
00:40:22.199 --> 00:40:34.320
had twenty years of this very dark
bringing upbringing under under fisks rule quote unquote

512
00:40:34.880 --> 00:40:38.519
versus her like eight years on the
chalk Don nation before her mom passed.

513
00:40:38.960 --> 00:40:45.320
So and you can't undo, you
can't, you can't overweigh those first eight

514
00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:52.840
years compared to the last twenty in
one visit back home. So I think,

515
00:40:53.800 --> 00:41:02.320
uh, the first step is embracing
her lineage and how she was descended

516
00:41:02.320 --> 00:41:08.639
from the first I think. I
think I think that that Chakta's name was

517
00:41:08.719 --> 00:41:15.039
Chaffa. She is directly descended by
Chaffa. Embracing that and then using that

518
00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:21.559
as your compass to hopefully become a
hero. But yeah, I don't think

519
00:41:21.599 --> 00:41:24.599
she's there yet, which I believe. Chafa is also her mother's name,

520
00:41:24.920 --> 00:41:29.360
and it's supposed to be very significant. Oh, I think a loot her

521
00:41:29.400 --> 00:41:37.599
mom's name was uh uh Talloa.
Oh you might be right, Okay,

522
00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:42.440
I surely could missed something there.
I know the first episode title is also

523
00:41:42.519 --> 00:41:50.159
Chafa yeah yes. So each episode's
name I think is the name of the

524
00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:55.159
the flashback character, so Chafaka Hello
to Loa, and then the fifth episode

525
00:41:55.280 --> 00:42:00.880
name is yeah yeah. And I
did love how they did all that.

526
00:42:00.760 --> 00:42:05.159
Clearly, you know, people have
gotten the memo the generational trauma is what

527
00:42:05.199 --> 00:42:09.800
we want to see and like seeing
the scene her her scene with her grandmother

528
00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:15.159
where you know again, I think
this is more than the Netflix what it

529
00:42:15.199 --> 00:42:17.119
does, although I think like some
of the Disney shows, other Disney shows

530
00:42:17.119 --> 00:42:22.480
have done this as well, like
they didn't have a Here's why I felt

531
00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:25.119
this way, Here's why I felt
this way tearful reunion. You know,

532
00:42:27.760 --> 00:42:31.079
I think the grandmother is clearly wrong
and does a horrible thing by kicking out

533
00:42:31.119 --> 00:42:37.000
her, her son in law and
her daughter, but also the pain she

534
00:42:37.159 --> 00:42:42.039
feels is like I have not lost
a child. I can only imagine what

535
00:42:42.079 --> 00:42:45.639
it's like. But it's not like
I think, oh, she must be

536
00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:50.360
a monster. I can very much
emotionally understand where she was coming from and

537
00:42:50.440 --> 00:42:53.159
all and the way she is both
defending it but also showing with all this

538
00:42:53.199 --> 00:42:55.960
guilt how wrong she was, and
the way that echo isn't willing to just

539
00:42:57.000 --> 00:43:00.440
forgive that at first it felt very
very real. It's not just everything about

540
00:43:00.480 --> 00:43:07.079
the family was so well done.
All the characters were interesting. So let's

541
00:43:07.119 --> 00:43:09.360
again, There's so much we can
talk about. And I think we're gonna

542
00:43:09.360 --> 00:43:13.159
do more episodes. And I will
say on the MCU cast, which is

543
00:43:13.800 --> 00:43:15.440
part of the strand of Pana Network, which I'm a huge fan of used

544
00:43:15.480 --> 00:43:19.519
to be a part of, they're
doing episode of by episode coverage. Definitely

545
00:43:19.559 --> 00:43:22.440
recommend people check that out. It
is phenomenal. It's gonna be phenomenal.

546
00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:24.440
I'm sure we're not gonna try and
do that. It's not gonna go through

547
00:43:24.440 --> 00:43:28.960
everything. But I wanted just to
kind of move back to this conversation of

548
00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:32.280
representation and the like and talk a
bit about what it was like for There's

549
00:43:32.480 --> 00:43:37.280
great people who are talking about definitis
in the show. Great people talking about

550
00:43:37.320 --> 00:43:39.760
Native Native representation in the show.
Uh, the Chalk Drawn Nation, like

551
00:43:39.920 --> 00:43:43.800
they specifically say, was very involved. There's a lot of chalk Tawk and

552
00:43:43.880 --> 00:43:46.119
other Native creators who've been talking about
this. I want to talk about what

553
00:43:46.159 --> 00:43:50.079
the show is like for me as
an amputee and the larger question of representation,

554
00:43:50.119 --> 00:43:52.639
and I want to start by asking
you actually will, And as I

555
00:43:52.639 --> 00:43:54.960
say this, it feels like I'm
setting you up. There's no right answers

556
00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:59.639
to any perspective you have go for. But I'm curious, what is your

557
00:43:59.639 --> 00:44:09.119
feeling about representation in these kind of
shows. I so, okay, blanket

558
00:44:09.159 --> 00:44:15.760
statement. I love it. I
love that we that they as the non

559
00:44:15.880 --> 00:44:22.440
represented, a member of the that
isn't represented in some of these shows.

560
00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:30.239
I love seeing the posts, the
random suggested posts that they sent my way,

561
00:44:30.280 --> 00:44:37.119
either through Facebook or through Twitter,
of people being moved so much by

562
00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:43.440
seeing their representation. I would say, so, I'm African American, and

563
00:44:45.199 --> 00:44:50.880
I feel like classically African Americans are
the only ones that get that, like,

564
00:44:51.119 --> 00:44:55.440
oh, hey, we've been represented
here, and so like when Black

565
00:44:55.480 --> 00:45:00.679
Panther happened, it was a big
deal, but like it didn't feel like

566
00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:07.519
such a big deal to me because
we've had representation before, Like we have

567
00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:13.000
our Blade and Wesley Snipes, and
we have our famous black actors that have

568
00:45:13.199 --> 00:45:20.159
done amazing things and have all these
accolades and accomplishments, and so it's like

569
00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:29.719
cool, yay black people. Cool, But then getting seeing this representation for

570
00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:38.840
deaf people and amputees and the wave
of excitement that flew across the internet during

571
00:45:38.840 --> 00:45:45.000
Hawkeye for because I feel like,
especially with Hawkeye, there was like there's

572
00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:53.320
two different kinds of deaf representation,
with Hawkeye trying to struggling with his hearing

573
00:45:53.360 --> 00:45:59.239
aids versus Maya just fully embracing the
fact that she's deaf and she's not that

574
00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:02.039
she can use here. It's uh, being born deaf and becoming deaf,

575
00:46:02.079 --> 00:46:07.440
I think are two very different things
as far as your relationship deafness. I

576
00:46:07.480 --> 00:46:12.159
don't know for sure, but my
memory is that he's better described as hard

577
00:46:12.199 --> 00:46:15.599
of hearing rather than actually deaf.
But I'm not and I's not corrected to

578
00:46:15.639 --> 00:46:22.679
birth and I yeah, yeah,
I don't know, we're both yeah,

579
00:46:22.719 --> 00:46:29.119
but I do appreciate the distinction.
So and and seeing how excited people were

580
00:46:29.320 --> 00:46:35.679
about because there are there have been
amputees, like if you watch like Agents

581
00:46:35.679 --> 00:46:42.280
of Shield Slingshot got lost both of
her arms and they you know, they

582
00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:47.280
gave her bionic arms. And then
Misty Knight is another famous arm amputee that

583
00:46:50.639 --> 00:46:54.960
almost every single time it's replaced with
something that's a high tech replacement and it's

584
00:46:55.000 --> 00:47:00.840
an upgrade and not A, this
is the real world application of what would

585
00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:08.639
actually happen, and for them to
keep it for Maya it being someone who's

586
00:47:08.679 --> 00:47:14.239
non ampute. I think I appreciate
it, and like I don't want to

587
00:47:14.239 --> 00:47:17.159
say it's novel because I don't want
to like trivialize the impact, but like

588
00:47:17.960 --> 00:47:22.880
I really like seeing it initially,
and then I go to the Internet and

589
00:47:23.400 --> 00:47:30.360
people are just loving it, and
and I've seen like posts from you and

590
00:47:30.400 --> 00:47:32.079
other and other people saying, you
know, as an ampt this is one

591
00:47:32.079 --> 00:47:37.320
of the greatest things I've ever seen, and that's so exciting to me.

592
00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:45.320
I love that the same way that
like representation of homosexuality like on Shit's Creek

593
00:47:45.719 --> 00:47:52.159
versus other gay couples in other shows, where like it's a plot point and

594
00:47:52.639 --> 00:47:57.320
it's and it's like they embrace it
in a way that's a comedic way,

595
00:47:57.400 --> 00:48:05.039
and and it in Shit's Creek it's
just natural. It's they're not praised for

596
00:48:05.039 --> 00:48:07.079
for being together in public and all
this other stuff. It's, yes,

597
00:48:07.679 --> 00:48:15.199
it's just another relationship. And so
when and I think that's the goal for

598
00:48:15.480 --> 00:48:23.360
representation of just like we're not basing
the story around this situation for the character

599
00:48:23.400 --> 00:48:29.480
it's just they have it. And
for Maya, she uses it, uses

600
00:48:29.559 --> 00:48:36.719
her metal foot in ways that people
with flesh feet cannot, and that is

601
00:48:37.159 --> 00:48:44.519
that's what you want to see.
And it felt someone but pro tip someone

602
00:48:44.599 --> 00:48:47.960
tying someone up by the ankles when
they have a prosthetic foot bad idea,

603
00:48:49.360 --> 00:48:53.920
because we're kind of mister potato heads
in that regard. Oh man, Yeah,

604
00:48:53.960 --> 00:48:58.519
it's so much fun. I love
it. I'm totally with you.

605
00:48:58.719 --> 00:49:01.360
And for me, I mean,
it made me cry numerous times because I

606
00:49:01.400 --> 00:49:05.599
got this and I had that already
with Echo from Hawkeye. There were just

607
00:49:05.639 --> 00:49:07.519
a couple of moments, and there
were I'm not going to go through everything,

608
00:49:07.519 --> 00:49:10.280
but I want to go through some
of those moments of how how it

609
00:49:10.320 --> 00:49:15.159
affected me. I also want to
say that, well, I am an

610
00:49:15.159 --> 00:49:17.320
amputee, and I think you're right
a lot of other amputees are are feeling

611
00:49:17.320 --> 00:49:22.920
similar to this. I should also
say, like a terminology issue, there

612
00:49:22.960 --> 00:49:25.679
are people who in the same way. There's like deaf and hard of hearing,

613
00:49:25.719 --> 00:49:30.760
and the exact definitions amputee, I
think is often used as a catch

614
00:49:30.760 --> 00:49:35.559
all phrase for people who use prosthetic
legs. That's not actually accurate because some

615
00:49:35.599 --> 00:49:39.320
people are born without a limb for
whatever reason, in the same way someone

616
00:49:39.320 --> 00:49:43.920
could be born deaf. They will
often still use a prosthetic leg. They

617
00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:47.679
are not technically amputees. I think
I think the term that is well that

618
00:49:47.800 --> 00:49:51.639
we looked this up, and the
two terms that I saw they're used most

619
00:49:51.639 --> 00:49:54.639
often. One is limb deficient,
which is utterly awful and talk about like

620
00:49:54.760 --> 00:49:59.719
super ablests, like you're not what
it should be. The other is u

621
00:50:00.840 --> 00:50:06.639
The other is unipod or uniped,
which is fine and like you know,

622
00:50:06.760 --> 00:50:12.039
uniped versus biped. My understanding from
Latin that I studied twenty five years ago

623
00:50:12.079 --> 00:50:15.000
and never got above us B minus
in so it could be wrong is that

624
00:50:15.159 --> 00:50:16.920
for the singular it should be pod
not ped. But it could be wrong.

625
00:50:17.400 --> 00:50:23.320
Personally, I prefer monopod or monoped
instead of by instead of uniped,

626
00:50:23.599 --> 00:50:28.000
because then it can be shortened to
moped. But that's just my own thing.

627
00:50:29.239 --> 00:50:30.239
I know. Sorry, bad jokes, that's what you're gonna get with

628
00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:34.760
me. I will, though,
say, like, so, I'm gonna

629
00:50:34.760 --> 00:50:38.199
speak in that perspective, but it's
not a univocal community. Like I post

630
00:50:38.239 --> 00:50:42.280
a couple of things online about this
already and In one conversation, there's someone

631
00:50:42.280 --> 00:50:45.000
who's also an amputee who's like,
I hate representation, blah blah blah blah

632
00:50:45.000 --> 00:50:47.360
blah. You know, I don't
want to see myself on screen like this.

633
00:50:47.440 --> 00:50:51.639
I don't need that. Granted,
this person also thinks wokeness is the

634
00:50:51.639 --> 00:50:54.559
worst thing happening to America. So
we're not really seeing things in the same

635
00:50:54.599 --> 00:50:58.599
way in a lot of ways.
But I want to acknowledge that that's another

636
00:50:58.599 --> 00:51:00.840
amputee who feels differently about this,
and I'm sure he's not alone, or

637
00:51:00.880 --> 00:51:04.599
they're not alone. I think he, but who knows. It's a Twitter

638
00:51:04.639 --> 00:51:12.280
person. So with all those caveats, the first moment that I knew,

639
00:51:12.480 --> 00:51:15.519
yes, this is going to be
honest to my experience and to the experience

640
00:51:15.519 --> 00:51:21.639
of other amputees, to the leg
amputees people whose arms obviously, and that's

641
00:51:21.719 --> 00:51:24.440
a different thing, but I think
related. She gets out of the hospital

642
00:51:24.679 --> 00:51:28.280
and she and her father are getting
ready to go to New York because the

643
00:51:28.320 --> 00:51:30.199
grandmother is kind of kicking them out
and saying like, you're not welcome here,

644
00:51:31.239 --> 00:51:37.920
and she doesn't have a prosthetic leg
yet, because like when most people

645
00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:39.920
lose their leg in a traumatic accident
of some kinds, Like sometimes it's an

646
00:51:39.920 --> 00:51:44.599
amputee and it's planned, like with
diabetes or something like that. Even there

647
00:51:44.599 --> 00:51:45.239
are though, I think it can
still take a while to heel, but

648
00:51:45.320 --> 00:51:51.440
especially if it's a traumatic accident,
it can take weeks or months to the

649
00:51:51.480 --> 00:51:54.880
point of like any contact on that
part of your limbs possible, because often

650
00:51:54.920 --> 00:51:59.000
they need to do like skin grafts
or muscle graphs or other things like that.

651
00:51:59.719 --> 00:52:05.199
So when like Misty Knight gets this
badass prosthetic arm two days later,

652
00:52:06.440 --> 00:52:07.440
it makes her a cool story.
You know, get me wrong, Misty

653
00:52:07.519 --> 00:52:14.239
Knight's an incredible character, But that
doesn't speak to the ampute experience at least

654
00:52:14.280 --> 00:52:16.119
not it's an arm. It's not
my experience. But like I think a

655
00:52:16.159 --> 00:52:19.639
lot of people at the time said, like, that's it's not realistic.

656
00:52:19.920 --> 00:52:22.480
Sure, So the fact that she's
leaving the hospital it's probably been like a

657
00:52:22.559 --> 00:52:27.000
couple of weeks or at least a
week or so, and her stump is

658
00:52:27.039 --> 00:52:30.000
still fully banged up. She does
not have a prosthetic leg. I was

659
00:52:30.079 --> 00:52:35.679
like, yes, that's it.
The fact that her grandfather, who's clearly

660
00:52:35.840 --> 00:52:38.440
very good at machinery and stuff like
that, but it's not a prostheticist himself,

661
00:52:38.840 --> 00:52:43.679
and it's certainly not like a Tony
Stark level inventor. Yeah, when

662
00:52:43.719 --> 00:52:46.000
she breaks her prosthetic because it gets
stuck, which is a very real thing

663
00:52:46.119 --> 00:52:50.000
and can certainly happen. And when
I saw that, I was like,

664
00:52:50.920 --> 00:52:53.159
if aprosthesis is fine, I'm gonna
be so mad. But it clearly wasn't,

665
00:52:53.239 --> 00:52:57.519
and she was like limping on it
afterwards, and then they make her

666
00:52:57.599 --> 00:53:00.840
one that again it's not a perfect
fit, has to limp some and because

667
00:53:00.880 --> 00:53:05.719
it's going to take time for him
to fix this and to do it right,

668
00:53:07.320 --> 00:53:09.000
all of those things, I was
like, yes, this, this

669
00:53:09.239 --> 00:53:14.719
is what. This is much more
accurate to the ampute experience, certainly the

670
00:53:14.760 --> 00:53:21.760
leg one, and there are times
where she can do things with her leg

671
00:53:22.199 --> 00:53:28.920
that I absolutely cannot do with mine. And like the combat, like the

672
00:53:29.000 --> 00:53:32.400
way my leg fits, it fits
pretty well. But if I start to

673
00:53:32.480 --> 00:53:37.000
do like lots of kind of crazy
footwork things like the hold between my leg

674
00:53:37.039 --> 00:53:40.119
and my stump is not perfect,
and it's gonna start to wiggle around some

675
00:53:40.880 --> 00:53:45.400
and and be a problem. And
certainly if I like impact it in very

676
00:53:45.480 --> 00:53:50.159
hard ways, it will like it
could have come off, or certainly it

677
00:53:50.199 --> 00:53:54.719
will you know, become loosened and
and and also be very painful to me,

678
00:53:55.199 --> 00:53:59.800
and certainly if I drop from a
height and land on it. I

679
00:54:00.039 --> 00:54:02.320
tried rock climbing. Granted this was
like ten years ago, when I prosthetic

680
00:54:02.320 --> 00:54:06.199
technologies advanced a lot, But I
tried rock climbing ten fifteen years ago.

681
00:54:06.760 --> 00:54:08.880
I dropped like five feet and it
was incredibly painful because it was like,

682
00:54:09.400 --> 00:54:15.280
you know, you know, and
I think the one she has has much

683
00:54:15.320 --> 00:54:17.239
better shock absorbers than the one I
had back then. The one I now

684
00:54:17.320 --> 00:54:21.519
have has shock absorbers that are better
than my cars. But still, I

685
00:54:22.079 --> 00:54:24.800
for me, I imagine it would
be painful and difficult. But the fact

686
00:54:24.920 --> 00:54:31.480
that it is literally an actress with
her own prosthetic leg doing those things,

687
00:54:32.719 --> 00:54:36.760
and you mentioned before that she's not
an amputee. In the Comics Awesome part

688
00:54:36.760 --> 00:54:39.960
of the story, they were looking
for a native deaf actress who also can

689
00:54:40.039 --> 00:54:44.440
do fight scenes, and as it
happened, the one they found was an

690
00:54:44.440 --> 00:54:47.519
amputee, and so instead of trying
to like always keep her in pants or

691
00:54:47.599 --> 00:54:52.239
something like that, they were just
like, fine, our characters amputine now

692
00:54:52.280 --> 00:54:55.599
as well, right, which is
just like talk about wonderful representation, Like

693
00:54:55.719 --> 00:54:59.960
there's the intentional like we want a
deaf character, so we want a deaf

694
00:55:00.079 --> 00:55:04.039
actress, but oh hey, the
actress has an amputation, so let's just

695
00:55:04.079 --> 00:55:07.360
make that part of the character as
well. That's also just awesome. But

696
00:55:07.519 --> 00:55:10.679
you know, and from all the
interviews and things that I've seen, I

697
00:55:10.800 --> 00:55:15.760
am convinced that, for the most
part, some stuff is probably an exaggeration,

698
00:55:15.960 --> 00:55:19.480
because fight movies are always an exaggeration
of what physics can actually do.

699
00:55:19.960 --> 00:55:23.440
You know. Even Bruce Lee,
you know, use sometimes wires and stuff

700
00:55:23.480 --> 00:55:28.719
like that for the incredible scenes.
I believe that, so certainly many martial

701
00:55:28.760 --> 00:55:34.039
arts movies do the point of all
this being the fact that it was a

702
00:55:34.079 --> 00:55:36.639
Loquo Cox doing it. I think
I'm pronouncing her name right, and if

703
00:55:36.679 --> 00:55:42.760
not, please let me know.
Fans told me that I could trust that

704
00:55:42.960 --> 00:55:46.960
these are things that a person with
a prosthetic could do it. But it's

705
00:55:46.960 --> 00:55:50.880
funny also because at first I was
wondering that she have a very different like

706
00:55:50.960 --> 00:55:52.800
does she have it like really strapped
into her legs? No, the like

707
00:55:53.280 --> 00:55:57.000
I think you've seen me, I
just have a rubber thing that fits on

708
00:55:57.079 --> 00:55:59.679
my stump and it has a pin
at the end of it, and then

709
00:55:59.719 --> 00:56:04.239
the plugs right into my prosthetic.
And there's one moment where it's half a

710
00:56:04.320 --> 00:56:07.559
second and you might miss it,
but she puts her stuff into her leg

711
00:56:07.760 --> 00:56:10.000
and it doesn't click immediately and she
has to kind of adjust and push her

712
00:56:10.079 --> 00:56:14.320
leg down again. And I was
like, that's that's my experience. I've

713
00:56:14.360 --> 00:56:16.800
seen that, So yeah, I
just thought all those stunts, all that

714
00:56:16.920 --> 00:56:21.519
stuff. Yeah, some of it's
EMCU movie making magic, and that's fine

715
00:56:21.559 --> 00:56:23.480
because I do it with everyone else. But there was never a time where

716
00:56:23.480 --> 00:56:28.039
it felt like that's that doesn't fit
what an amputee could do, what a

717
00:56:28.079 --> 00:56:30.840
person with a prosthetic leg could do. That's awesome. I really like hearing

718
00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:37.840
that. What keeps on standing out
to me is the silhouette of her fighting

719
00:56:37.960 --> 00:56:43.360
Daredevil and she like holds her foot
and then just like builds up tension and

720
00:56:43.440 --> 00:56:47.079
lets it go. It just slams
it down on Daredevil. This is so

721
00:56:47.360 --> 00:56:55.159
cool. That was that moment.
Just maybe cheer so much, and yeah,

722
00:56:55.239 --> 00:56:59.079
because I've definitely had like, again, I'm not a martial artist by

723
00:56:59.119 --> 00:57:01.079
any means, and that's not because
of a prosthesis. You know, it's

724
00:57:01.119 --> 00:57:05.159
just because I'm not in great I'm
not in great shape, and I've never

725
00:57:06.199 --> 00:57:09.280
studied martial arts. But yeah,
that scene, it was just all of

726
00:57:09.320 --> 00:57:13.480
it was just exactly what I wanted
to say. So, yeah, so

727
00:57:13.599 --> 00:57:19.719
happy about that. Yeah, it
really was, It really was. We've

728
00:57:19.719 --> 00:57:22.719
got about an hour already. We're
gonna do a quick bonus section for our

729
00:57:22.760 --> 00:57:23.880
members. And by the way,
if you haven't thought it, become a

730
00:57:23.960 --> 00:57:27.320
member. There's a great time to
do so. It's only five dollars a

731
00:57:27.400 --> 00:57:30.639
month, fifty five dollars a year. You get access to add free content,

732
00:57:30.679 --> 00:57:32.119
you guys, is to bonus content. As I mentioned, we're gonna

733
00:57:32.119 --> 00:57:37.360
be starting book clubs definitely for Star
Wars universe, probably for superheroes as well,

734
00:57:37.760 --> 00:57:42.320
once a month episodes that will be
only for members, So definitely check

735
00:57:42.360 --> 00:57:44.719
those things out. Please become a
member. It's a great way to support

736
00:57:44.760 --> 00:57:46.639
us. All the informations in the
show notes. But before we wrap up,

737
00:57:47.559 --> 00:57:50.880
will any of the last things you
wanted to bring up or talk about,

738
00:57:50.960 --> 00:57:53.920
or any of the last like plot
points or characters or story beats we

739
00:57:53.960 --> 00:57:59.880
haven't gotten into. There's comparisons with
the comics, sure, Okay, I

740
00:58:00.039 --> 00:58:07.239
guess I have two observations. One, I I don't feel like cutting brake

741
00:58:07.320 --> 00:58:16.239
lines works as amazingly well as like
every single Mob show does, because I

742
00:58:16.400 --> 00:58:22.079
refuse to believe that from when someone
gets in the car to when they get

743
00:58:22.239 --> 00:58:28.840
hit. The first time they hit
the brakes is when they're trying to stop

744
00:58:28.920 --> 00:58:32.320
at a at a traffic light,
like even when you first turn the car

745
00:58:32.519 --> 00:58:38.280
on, your foot's on the break. So like I just and it's it's

746
00:58:38.360 --> 00:58:45.000
not an Echo problem. It's literally
just a generic storytelling problem that stands out

747
00:58:45.039 --> 00:58:49.079
to me every time it happens.
And that was like my least favorite part

748
00:58:49.119 --> 00:58:52.880
of the show because it took me
out of it. But I don't know,

749
00:58:52.039 --> 00:58:57.199
I don't I've never cut brakes on
a car. I've never had a

750
00:58:57.280 --> 00:59:00.840
car. I've never driven a car
with breaks the line cut, So I

751
00:59:00.880 --> 00:59:07.840
don't know if that's accurate, but
it just it feels weird anyway. That's

752
00:59:07.920 --> 00:59:14.960
one thing. And then when I
think of Echo, there's two designs design

753
00:59:15.159 --> 00:59:19.039
aspects about Echo from the comics that
stand out to me. One is she

754
00:59:19.239 --> 00:59:27.440
has a white handprint that she uses
like paint on her face. That's like

755
00:59:27.559 --> 00:59:31.679
part of her like putting on her
costume quote unquote, and that is an

756
00:59:31.719 --> 00:59:37.719
homage to when her father died,
he left a bloody handprint on her face,

757
00:59:37.800 --> 00:59:42.920
and they did that in Hawkeye Slash
the flashback of this show, where

758
00:59:43.039 --> 00:59:46.079
he like had her his hand on
her face and like left blood stains on

759
00:59:46.199 --> 00:59:51.599
her. So I loved that.
But then also her dad and then also

760
00:59:51.920 --> 01:00:00.679
her costume going forward had this like
circle triangle or triangles in a circle that

761
01:00:00.960 --> 01:00:06.039
is part of it's on her costume
in the comics. And then her dad

762
01:00:06.159 --> 01:00:12.679
has a tattoo on his right shoulder, and then it was worked onto her

763
01:00:12.840 --> 01:00:19.800
vest, and then also her her
outfit that her grandma made has that same

764
01:00:19.840 --> 01:00:27.840
design. And I have zero familiarity
with the Native American ties to that,

765
01:00:28.039 --> 01:00:32.519
but like when I think of Echo, I think of that circle triangle design

766
01:00:32.679 --> 01:00:37.280
and I love that. Sorry my
dog, and I love that they had

767
01:00:37.360 --> 01:00:40.719
that in there, and it's it's
like my favorite part about Echo as a

768
01:00:40.840 --> 01:00:45.440
character. I need to take a
quick I want to respond to that,

769
01:00:45.480 --> 01:00:47.599
but I quickly first need to say
I want to point out to everybody that

770
01:00:47.679 --> 01:00:54.360
if you're looking for a great podcast
about comics by people who really know their

771
01:00:54.400 --> 01:00:59.639
comics. Remember that Will started by
saying he doesn't really know that much about

772
01:00:59.679 --> 01:01:02.840
like is not like the one he
really knows that well, and that level

773
01:01:02.920 --> 01:01:08.280
of detail that you would just pulled
from memory like is just like, yeah,

774
01:01:08.440 --> 01:01:13.719
sure you like listen to this man
and his buddy Steve talk about comics

775
01:01:13.800 --> 01:01:16.840
on the Hype is My Superpower podcast. It is phenomenal that goes so deep.

776
01:01:16.840 --> 01:01:20.559
They really talk about the kind of
ethical questions we love, but also

777
01:01:20.639 --> 01:01:22.719
just the awesome fight scenes. They're
very critical of things. They're not just

778
01:01:22.840 --> 01:01:29.639
hype men for it podcast name notwithstanding. Definitely check out that podcast. But

779
01:01:29.760 --> 01:01:31.800
yeah, I just like it is
now. I guess just kind of a

780
01:01:32.480 --> 01:01:36.639
point that all of these superhero shows
have to hit. And I wouldn't mind

781
01:01:36.679 --> 01:01:40.679
if every now and then we skipped
it of here's the emotionally important story or

782
01:01:40.800 --> 01:01:45.880
just the funny story of how they
get their first costume. But I did

783
01:01:45.000 --> 01:01:49.039
think that the whole story for this
and like her grandmother making it, and

784
01:01:49.119 --> 01:01:58.000
that's kind of reconnecting with her grandmother
and the power there. I have seen

785
01:01:58.039 --> 01:02:01.039
little things about it online, people
talking about how yet it is very authentic

786
01:02:01.159 --> 01:02:06.159
to the chalk Talk community and things
like that and I can't, like you,

787
01:02:06.239 --> 01:02:07.000
I can't speak to it, but
it was but it just it was

788
01:02:07.039 --> 01:02:10.840
just so beautifully done. I will
also say, as someone who worked in

789
01:02:13.199 --> 01:02:17.679
car repair for a while, this
is my understanding is was told to be

790
01:02:17.719 --> 01:02:22.920
by the way, who So I
think we're also just yet like very clear,

791
01:02:22.360 --> 01:02:27.119
but is like you can do things
to damage the break so that they

792
01:02:27.159 --> 01:02:30.639
will slowly wear down and not be
a problem until you're going at high speed.

793
01:02:31.280 --> 01:02:36.000
Sure, and I think cut the
break line is kind of just like

794
01:02:36.159 --> 01:02:39.239
movie, you know, TV waving
your hand over a much larger complicated thing

795
01:02:39.360 --> 01:02:45.320
that thirty seconds of break line technology
wouldn't be what the show needed. But

796
01:02:45.440 --> 01:02:46.400
also, yeah, I was a
little throne by that. What was a

797
01:02:46.400 --> 01:02:51.760
little more thrown by is But again
in the kind of like it's a superhero

798
01:02:51.840 --> 01:02:53.280
show where she's going to heal people
with her hands. I'm not going to

799
01:02:53.320 --> 01:02:59.679
worry too much about the exact physics
of it. As far as I understand,

800
01:03:00.519 --> 01:03:05.519
there hasn't been a windshield built in
the last fifty years that would break

801
01:03:05.559 --> 01:03:09.159
in such a way that a huge
piece of glass would on its own fly,

802
01:03:09.519 --> 01:03:15.800
you know, break, they shatter, they're designed. Yeah, and

803
01:03:15.400 --> 01:03:20.000
here's the thing. Did I have
a moment of okay, that doesn't really

804
01:03:20.039 --> 01:03:22.760
fit. Sure? Did it pull
me out of what was an incredibly emotional

805
01:03:22.800 --> 01:03:25.960
scene, not the slightest, right, And did it bother me in any

806
01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:30.960
real way? Not the slightest.
Because the idea that she loses her leg

807
01:03:30.119 --> 01:03:32.679
in a car accident, which makes
total sense. And by the way,

808
01:03:32.679 --> 01:03:37.360
the idea of like, one of
the ways you can lose your leg is

809
01:03:37.400 --> 01:03:42.119
if your leg doesn't have to be
severed, if just anything happens to sever.

810
01:03:42.840 --> 01:03:45.280
I think it's the femeral artery.
But whatever is the artery in your

811
01:03:45.360 --> 01:03:50.199
thigh and your limb basically loses blood, even just for a couple of hours,

812
01:03:50.599 --> 01:03:52.880
it may often have to be amputated
because just the loss of blood in

813
01:03:53.000 --> 01:03:58.679
just those few hours can be incredibly
damaging. So all of that makes total

814
01:03:58.760 --> 01:04:02.599
sense. The fact that it's a
big piece of glass, yeah cares.

815
01:04:02.840 --> 01:04:08.800
I guess I would have crushed it. But yeah, I only bring this

816
01:04:08.960 --> 01:04:14.079
up because as anything that as women
led. There's a whole bunch of people

817
01:04:14.119 --> 01:04:16.840
on the Internet who absolutely hate this. Many of them have probably never seen

818
01:04:16.880 --> 01:04:20.360
it, some of them clearly watch
enough to see that scene, or at

819
01:04:20.440 --> 01:04:24.719
least to see some other picture of
the scene, because those parts of the

820
01:04:24.760 --> 01:04:27.719
internet are going crazy about the idea
of Oh, this is so fake,

821
01:04:27.840 --> 01:04:30.800
it's embarrassing, it's badly done,
how could you possibly do this. I've

822
01:04:30.840 --> 01:04:33.239
had two people come to me and
be like, as an amputee, aren't

823
01:04:33.239 --> 01:04:36.199
you so offended by how badly this
was done? And I'm like, no,

824
01:04:36.599 --> 01:04:42.719
absolutely not. The physics of it
perfect, No, should anyone in

825
01:04:42.760 --> 01:04:46.400
the right minds actually care? No, Like, I'm never gonna be the

826
01:04:46.440 --> 01:04:50.960
person who well, that's probably too
offensive. If you really care about granular

827
01:04:51.000 --> 01:04:54.719
details like that, and that's how
you enjoy something, I'm not saying you're

828
01:04:54.760 --> 01:05:00.519
wrong, But if you then claim
that everyone should should folks is on those

829
01:05:00.519 --> 01:05:03.760
granular details and not enjoy something if
the granular details aren't right, I think

830
01:05:04.119 --> 01:05:11.239
that is it's just a really jerk
position to take. And maybe, sure,

831
01:05:11.760 --> 01:05:14.880
yeah, no, I guess the
how it happened isn't as big of

832
01:05:14.920 --> 01:05:23.679
a deal as how are they representing
it post happening, Like the reason to

833
01:05:23.840 --> 01:05:30.840
become amputated isn't as important as how
you show an amputee post amputation. Right,

834
01:05:30.119 --> 01:05:33.440
Well, and even then I think
they did answer. If someone asked

835
01:05:33.480 --> 01:05:36.880
me, how did she lose her
leg? I would say someone was trying

836
01:05:36.960 --> 01:05:42.400
to get to her father because of
her father's criminal ties or whatever. Yeah,

837
01:05:42.440 --> 01:05:45.639
she said again, if someone asks
me how did she lose her leg,

838
01:05:46.280 --> 01:05:50.320
I'm going to say her father was
somehow connected to underworld stuff and someone

839
01:05:50.440 --> 01:05:54.559
tried to get at his family,
and there was a car crash, and

840
01:05:54.599 --> 01:05:58.840
in the car crash, her mother
died and my lost her leg. Yeah

841
01:05:59.159 --> 01:06:01.280
that's yeah. Like the fact that
it's a piece of glass instead maybe should

842
01:06:01.280 --> 01:06:08.079
have been a piece of the dashboard
or something like care yeahs on that.

843
01:06:08.280 --> 01:06:11.079
I was just like, where did
that glass come from? Oh? Well,

844
01:06:11.280 --> 01:06:15.760
yeah, moved on. I will
say that the two little quibbles that

845
01:06:15.840 --> 01:06:18.719
I would have had, and one
of them is just a storytelling thing,

846
01:06:18.760 --> 01:06:23.719
and the other I'm speaking about my
how I felt about how the deafinness was

847
01:06:23.760 --> 01:06:26.360
portrayed. And so again, people
who are more of that community, let

848
01:06:26.400 --> 01:06:30.519
me know your thoughts on it.
First of all, though, just when

849
01:06:30.559 --> 01:06:34.599
she walks into the her room and
her mother is standing there and it just

850
01:06:34.719 --> 01:06:40.199
looks like a person who is standing
right there, it felt a little weird

851
01:06:40.239 --> 01:06:43.559
to me. And then I literally
had a moment of like, wait,

852
01:06:43.679 --> 01:06:45.920
is this some like you never see
the dead body. We kind of saw

853
01:06:46.000 --> 01:06:48.400
the dead body, but like,
if this can survive being shot in the

854
01:06:48.440 --> 01:06:51.519
head, maybe the mom can.
Like I thought the mom was literally alive,

855
01:06:53.199 --> 01:06:56.480
And yeah, I wish I wish
there had been a little bit of

856
01:06:56.639 --> 01:07:00.239
like forced ghosty like something to show
that this was a spirit or this was

857
01:07:00.960 --> 01:07:02.599
like I don't think it's in her
head. I think it was a real

858
01:07:02.719 --> 01:07:06.440
vision she was having, but something
to show that this was like a vision

859
01:07:06.559 --> 01:07:11.599
of her mother or her mother reaching
out through I want to say through the

860
01:07:11.679 --> 01:07:14.159
veil, but that's a very kind
of Western phrase of it. I don't

861
01:07:14.159 --> 01:07:16.920
know what would appropriate language, but
like through the echo. Yeah, yeah,

862
01:07:17.079 --> 01:07:20.679
yeah that works. Which I did
love the way that they they gave

863
01:07:20.760 --> 01:07:25.559
that her name that way. Yeah. The other thing that's for me a

864
01:07:25.599 --> 01:07:29.880
bit was I thought there was some
wonderful, wonderful moments where they cut out

865
01:07:29.920 --> 01:07:33.440
all the sound to show that they're
showing is from perspective but in a lot

866
01:07:33.760 --> 01:07:40.119
in a lot of them. Then
they had music. I just like the

867
01:07:40.280 --> 01:07:43.079
music felt a little bit like they
had to hold our hands a little bit

868
01:07:43.159 --> 01:07:45.360
and tell us, like what we
should be feeling in the scene, and

869
01:07:45.599 --> 01:07:49.840
you know, I I did have
one deaf deaf person who I'm friends with

870
01:07:49.960 --> 01:07:53.480
through TikTok, and I asked them
about this. Their comment was like,

871
01:07:53.639 --> 01:07:55.840
well, I didn't hear the music, and I was like, okay,

872
01:08:00.960 --> 01:08:03.599
sure, but sure, sure,
you know, which is I think a

873
01:08:03.719 --> 01:08:06.599
very valid position. But like it
to me, I wish they hadn't had

874
01:08:06.639 --> 01:08:10.159
that. But again, those are
two just like small quibbles. And I

875
01:08:10.239 --> 01:08:14.679
did think that for me as a
hearing person, I thought it did a

876
01:08:14.760 --> 01:08:18.520
fantastic job of giving me an understanding
of what she would which how she would

877
01:08:18.560 --> 01:08:23.039
be experiencing the world in those moments. Yeah, yeah, I agree,

878
01:08:25.279 --> 01:08:31.159
Yeah, it's funny because I did
like as a hearing person, I do

879
01:08:31.520 --> 01:08:35.960
notice that, you know, oh
this is from Maya's perspective, because all

880
01:08:36.039 --> 01:08:41.760
of the finding sound effects effects and
the and the grunts and everything are either

881
01:08:41.920 --> 01:08:45.720
muted or gone. But yeah,
that the music is still playing. I

882
01:08:45.800 --> 01:08:50.079
guess that didn't even click for me. Huh huh, No, well done.

883
01:08:50.359 --> 01:08:53.720
Different people notice different things, and
there's so many visual things that I

884
01:08:53.840 --> 01:08:59.199
noticed. But now other than that, I just how do you feel about

885
01:08:59.199 --> 01:09:05.800
the MCU now having seen this?
I guess I mean, I come out

886
01:09:05.800 --> 01:09:12.039
of it feeling the same way I
do about every other entry of just like

887
01:09:14.239 --> 01:09:16.800
what's going to help me under?
What's going to help me figure out how

888
01:09:16.840 --> 01:09:21.680
I feel about it? Is how
this gets referenced in the next thing,

889
01:09:23.039 --> 01:09:26.359
or like whenever it shows up again, how is it going to get played

890
01:09:26.439 --> 01:09:30.399
from? Or like what are what
have they introduced? What have they done

891
01:09:30.520 --> 01:09:33.640
that they're going to use down the
line, like Fisk running from Mayor and

892
01:09:36.199 --> 01:09:40.439
sorry, I know my mic is
picking up my dog right now, so

893
01:09:40.479 --> 01:09:44.199
I'm cricket. People love dogs.
It's fine, please stop, thank you.

894
01:09:45.399 --> 01:09:50.279
Okay, So I'm looking for when's
fit's going to show up again.

895
01:09:50.479 --> 01:09:55.680
It's probably gonna be Daredevil, but
like, how is that going to play

896
01:09:56.079 --> 01:10:00.119
the Mayor of New York? So
he's going to you, you know,

897
01:10:00.279 --> 01:10:08.600
he will have this perspective of the
civilian compared to all of the superheroesananigans that

898
01:10:08.680 --> 01:10:17.319
go on. So I'm excited for
that. I uh as the Okay,

899
01:10:17.359 --> 01:10:23.760
I don't have a problem with the
MCU. I think I think they did

900
01:10:23.800 --> 01:10:27.920
themselves a disservice in the big picture
of saying that this is the multiverse saga

901
01:10:28.039 --> 01:10:31.239
and these three phases are going to
be all multiverse, multiverse multiverse, whereas

902
01:10:31.359 --> 01:10:39.079
I feel like this is more of
the expansion Saga, and we're we're doing

903
01:10:39.199 --> 01:10:43.359
things like a Moon Night and She
Hulk and and were Wolf by Night and

904
01:10:43.600 --> 01:10:50.800
like these shows and movies like Shaun
che where it's like this all this is

905
01:10:50.880 --> 01:10:58.039
all also happening within the MCU.
It's not just those core characters from the

906
01:10:58.119 --> 01:11:04.359
Avengers. It's there's all these other
things going on. And I am super

907
01:11:04.439 --> 01:11:13.439
happy to get more entries into this
expanded lore kind of a thing. I

908
01:11:13.640 --> 01:11:21.920
just the setting the expectation of multiverse
Saga really did a lot of the shows

909
01:11:21.960 --> 01:11:30.439
that are worth watching or half things
that are good takeaways a disservice because they

910
01:11:30.560 --> 01:11:35.760
didn't feed into the multiverse aspect.
Like nothing about Echo says multiverse, and

911
01:11:35.880 --> 01:11:43.239
that's fine. But I'm looking forward
to her appearing in Daredevil's story. And

912
01:11:43.359 --> 01:11:45.680
if Daredevil appears, like he's already
peared in a Spider Man movie, but

913
01:11:45.680 --> 01:11:49.399
if Daredevil appears in an Avenger movie
at some point, that's great. I

914
01:11:49.520 --> 01:11:54.800
have no expectation and no need for
Echo to ever appear on the big screen,

915
01:11:55.239 --> 01:11:57.319
you know, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, I'm happy for

916
01:11:57.319 --> 01:12:00.680
it to be a smaller part of
things. Yeah, I still love Superhero

917
01:12:00.760 --> 01:12:04.640
fatigue. I'm I haven't seen Marvels. I haven't seen the Marvels yet.

918
01:12:04.960 --> 01:12:08.640
I'm very excited for that movie.
I think it's gonna be really good.

919
01:12:08.720 --> 01:12:13.880
I just I've been very with COVID
being bad again and stuff like that.

920
01:12:14.119 --> 01:12:15.199
I don't want to go to a
theater, but I'll probably you know,

921
01:12:15.319 --> 01:12:17.560
pay for it as soon as I
can on Amazon or something like that.

922
01:12:20.159 --> 01:12:25.000
And yeah, I just this makes
you feel lot better about the MCU.

923
01:12:25.319 --> 01:12:28.039
I feel like the last couple of
things that left me to probably disappointed,

924
01:12:28.159 --> 01:12:30.399
this feels better. I'm gonna just
do a quick run down of a couple

925
01:12:30.399 --> 01:12:31.520
of last things I had, and
then we'll close and do a member section

926
01:12:34.359 --> 01:12:38.680
my Baby as a centerfold. It's
just a classic classic eighty song that I

927
01:12:38.800 --> 01:12:42.760
absolutely love that the lyrics, like
most eighty songs, have not aged well,

928
01:12:42.840 --> 01:12:45.119
but it's still a great song and
I love that. Like, you

929
01:12:45.199 --> 01:12:48.159
know, I think we often do
think of like deaf people as being completely

930
01:12:48.319 --> 01:12:51.199
like I think it can be just
like there is it's like hitting mute on

931
01:12:51.279 --> 01:12:57.479
your computer, but oftentimes there's still
like you can be aware of vibrations or

932
01:12:57.520 --> 01:13:00.279
you can hear as you said,
sound is like it's like it's turned all

933
01:13:00.319 --> 01:13:02.560
the way down but still there.
So the fact that the song was playing

934
01:13:02.640 --> 01:13:04.960
just made my eighties kid heart so
happy, and the fact that she was

935
01:13:05.000 --> 01:13:09.399
aware of it. I thought it
was a really nice character beat. I

936
01:13:09.560 --> 01:13:13.680
did comment early that I thought that
we were seeing with Bonnie Checkov's firetruck,

937
01:13:14.520 --> 01:13:16.880
because they made a point of showing
that Bonnie is a firefighter and she's there

938
01:13:16.920 --> 01:13:19.039
with her firetruck, and I was
like, oh, so, clearly he's

939
01:13:19.079 --> 01:13:21.560
gonna be a major fire and she's
gonna show up Later. It turned out

940
01:13:21.600 --> 01:13:26.880
it was not Chekhov's firetruck, so
that's fine. But I will say that

941
01:13:28.159 --> 01:13:32.359
the acting throughout this was top notch. One of my favorite moments may be

942
01:13:33.319 --> 01:13:40.640
Bonnie translating as someone is saying that
he's going to kill Maya and Bonnie herself,

943
01:13:40.800 --> 01:13:44.560
because I'm trying to imagine what that
would be like to be like trying

944
01:13:44.600 --> 01:13:47.760
to act as the dispassionate like,
you know, I'm not here as part

945
01:13:47.760 --> 01:13:51.199
of the conversation. I'm just acting
as the translator. But the words that

946
01:13:51.239 --> 01:13:58.680
I'm translating are utterly terrifying and horrifying
to me, and just enough like it

947
01:13:58.680 --> 01:14:00.560
would be so hard to not get
that right. It's so easy to not

948
01:14:00.600 --> 01:14:03.920
get that right. And I thought, just her acting there was utterly phenomenal

949
01:14:05.399 --> 01:14:12.039
love but you kid saim love the
sci fi assisted tech, and just as

950
01:14:12.159 --> 01:14:14.640
one little character beat. And this
is the last thing I'll say. Oh

951
01:14:15.000 --> 01:14:19.720
two of the things. I'll say, sorry I was thinking. And then

952
01:14:19.800 --> 01:14:24.800
just two last things. One it
was very blanket you miss it, but

953
01:14:25.000 --> 01:14:27.880
at the pow Wow they had the
American flag, and they also had the

954
01:14:27.920 --> 01:14:31.800
pow Mia flag, which, like
from again my very limited understanding, is

955
01:14:31.840 --> 01:14:34.199
a very important I mean, it's
important in a lot of communities, but

956
01:14:34.359 --> 01:14:39.239
like there were an awful lot of
Native Americans who went into the military and

957
01:14:39.279 --> 01:14:42.960
were drafted or you know, wound
up doing it because there's so little economic

958
01:14:43.000 --> 01:14:46.960
opportunities and are part of that community
of people who were never found from Vietnam

959
01:14:47.720 --> 01:14:51.720
POWs are missing in actions. And
I you know, from the few other

960
01:14:51.800 --> 01:14:55.279
Native gatherings I have been to and
from those who I've been friends with,

961
01:14:55.479 --> 01:14:58.359
they've often talked about how important that
flag is in some of those communities.

962
01:14:58.439 --> 01:15:01.520
So that was brilliant. And then
the last thing just is because there's no

963
01:15:01.640 --> 01:15:05.720
commentary about it. But it was
so perfect having Wilson Fisk be connected to

964
01:15:05.800 --> 01:15:12.840
the Chalk Talk casino because and again
I might be projecting a lot here onto

965
01:15:12.920 --> 01:15:15.600
it, but I know that,
particularly in some of the areas I've lived

966
01:15:15.600 --> 01:15:18.640
in, like New York State and
Wisconsin, but also in others, the

967
01:15:18.720 --> 01:15:23.199
fact that a lot of these casino
a lot of these tribes have opened casinos

968
01:15:24.239 --> 01:15:28.720
where the promise is that it's going
to bring real economic vitality to everyone in

969
01:15:28.760 --> 01:15:31.319
the in the tribal community. I
think that happened sometimes, but a lot

970
01:15:31.399 --> 01:15:35.479
more often a few people wind up
getting a lot of the economic benefit and

971
01:15:35.640 --> 01:15:40.319
instead and then it's wanted to feeding
gambling addictions among people who are already very

972
01:15:40.359 --> 01:15:43.960
poor, disadvantaged, and and there's
been a lot of commentary by Native American

973
01:15:43.960 --> 01:15:46.600
activists about like are these casinos actually
good for us? And is it mostly

974
01:15:46.680 --> 01:15:51.479
like white investors who are benefiting And
so again I'm projecting all kinds of things,

975
01:15:53.119 --> 01:15:56.159
but to me, I read that
as of course, part of how

976
01:15:56.199 --> 01:15:59.920
Wilson Fisk would have first got connected
to this community is that he's an event

977
01:16:00.119 --> 01:16:03.640
during their casino, Like it just
fit so perfectly to me. Yeah,

978
01:16:03.880 --> 01:16:09.239
absolutely, all right, Well,
thank you so much. Will. We're

979
01:16:09.239 --> 01:16:11.239
going to have a quick member section. We're going to talk about some of

980
01:16:11.279 --> 01:16:14.159
the other Netflix MCU stuff and how
it might show up or not show up,

981
01:16:14.560 --> 01:16:16.239
particular in terms of what's the future
for FISK. But for those who

982
01:16:16.279 --> 01:16:19.920
are not members yet, hope we
will. Hope you become members. But

983
01:16:20.039 --> 01:16:23.640
for those who aren't, Will,
where can they find you? Ooh,

984
01:16:23.720 --> 01:16:28.960
come and find me on my podcast
Hype is My Superpower. Me and Steve

985
01:16:29.039 --> 01:16:33.199
Storman just gushing about Marvel Comics.
Primarily it's a lot of fun. I

986
01:16:33.279 --> 01:16:40.279
hope you enjoy your visit. You
can find me specifically as a Silver Dreamer

987
01:16:40.560 --> 01:16:45.680
all over the place primarily twitch and
silver with a Y, and I build

988
01:16:46.119 --> 01:16:50.800
lego and building bricks and model kits
and booknooks. Also on Sunday as we

989
01:16:50.920 --> 01:16:58.680
read Marvel comics and we're in the
middle of Original Sin, the twenty fourteen

990
01:16:58.800 --> 01:17:02.439
crossover event. It's a lot of
fun. That's awesome. Yeah, definitely

991
01:17:02.520 --> 01:17:05.560
check out Will's podcast technically check out
the stream. They're both awesome things.

992
01:17:05.640 --> 01:17:08.800
The links to those in the show
notes. Of course, I am the

993
01:17:08.840 --> 01:17:12.000
ethical Panda. You go to the
Ethical Panda dot com or just find me

994
01:17:12.039 --> 01:17:15.560
on true Story FM. You'll find
this podcast the superhero of the Star Wars

995
01:17:15.600 --> 01:17:19.279
Heroes Podcast. A lot of great
things happening on both. We have finally

996
01:17:19.399 --> 01:17:23.399
finally wrapped up our Rebels coverage.
We're going through the original movies with my

997
01:17:23.479 --> 01:17:26.920
new hosts. Because this is me
being dumb, because I woke up early

998
01:17:27.000 --> 01:17:30.279
to do this. It is the
Star Wars Generations podcast now because I've got

999
01:17:30.279 --> 01:17:32.760
two great new hosts who are where. We have a millennial, a zoomer,

1000
01:17:32.880 --> 01:17:35.319
and myself a gen xer, and
we're having a lot of fun talking

1001
01:17:35.319 --> 01:17:39.039
about Star Wars over there. Check
all that out, and of course become

1002
01:17:39.039 --> 01:17:41.880
a member you get a lot more
content, you get add free content,

1003
01:17:41.960 --> 01:17:44.439
but most importantly, it helps keep
the lights on. It helps give you

1004
01:17:44.520 --> 01:17:47.880
all the things that are necessary to
make this podcast content, and of course

1005
01:17:48.039 --> 01:17:50.560
give us feedback. I'd love to
know what you think of Echo. I'd

1006
01:17:50.560 --> 01:17:54.720
love to know what you think of
these characters, particularly if you are deaf,

1007
01:17:54.920 --> 01:17:57.239
or native, or disabled or an
amputee or any of those things,

1008
01:17:57.279 --> 01:18:00.199
but also just whoever you are.
We'd love to hear your thoughts. All

1009
01:18:00.199 --> 01:18:01.520
the informations on the show notes.
You can join our discord, you can

1010
01:18:01.520 --> 01:18:04.399
tweet at me, you can Facebook
me, all those different things, so

1011
01:18:04.600 --> 01:18:06.960
please check all that out. Please
check around for our member section if you

1012
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are a member, and for everybody
else we have spoken