WEBVTT

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She stands and spend the spa,
the snow, some things, very lives

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and love. SPA. Welcome chad
Nerds and dorks. I'm sitting in a

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depressing empty room, but that's okay
because we're gonna fill it with love.

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And it's also I'm gonna eventually have
cool stuff all over that would be cool

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crap everywhere, Dude, I promise, I'll promise you that you could believe

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at So we're gonna open it up. It's gonna be open for him a

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lot of fun when we do this. This is so weird and I'm not

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used to this new setting where I
don't have my books and all that.

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But we got one little bookshelf over
there, just kind of chilling and just

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being a little lonely over there.
And hopefully it's not too echoe. Maybe

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when I get more books and stuff
in here, it's not gonna be I'm

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not gonna be echoe. I don't
know. I don't know what y'all think.

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What's going on? What? What
what to do? Would it?

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What to do? But we moved, so we got a different situation,

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you know what I'm saying. We
had a different situation, so we we're

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gonna return to regularly scheduled broadcasting.
Now everything's back to normal for the most

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part. I got a it's gonna
be like a Neon flamenco behind me.

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That's gonna be cool. But I
ordered that and it won't be here for

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like two weeks whatever, so you
don't have to put up with Baron.

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We're gonna pretend that we're Reformed Puritan
Protestants with this barren walls, white washed

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walls, so we're Presbyterian Presbyterians.
The next couple of weeks, I'm gonna

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infiltrate the Calvinists, pretend to be
a Calvinist, just kidding. Won't be

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doing that. People say, well, why don't you put icons behind you?

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I don't. I've never felt like
it's appropriate. I don't care if

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somebody has icons behind him, that's
that's their decision. It's just not my

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vibe and ethos to be like,
oh, because we do a lot of

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stuff, you know what I mean. It's like, if my channel was

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devoted to Orthodox stuff or something,
maybe it would make sense to have an

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explicitly religious setting. But as you
guys know, I am not you're a

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guru. I'm not a spiritual leader
and our spiritual father. I'm a person

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who engages in philosophical, apologetical argumentation, and that has its limits. It

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only goes so far. It's necessary, it's useful, but it is not

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a replacement for church, or there's
no such thing as E church that exist.

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If you only have people online that
are your friends or whatever, well

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then that's the best you can do. But ironically, some of the people

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in the circles of Orthodoxy who criticize
what we do so that we promote an

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online e church, that's ironic because
all those same people are the ones that

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locked the churches down and promoted online
e churches, which I never supported ever.

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So most of what you hear about
me is false, believe it or

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not. And that's because there's a
lot of geopolitical pressure that's put on a

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lot of the sectors of Orthodoxy for
different reasons. That's not today's topic,

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although it does relate to it.
Father John Whiteford will be coming back on

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the broadcast very soon and he's going
to give us an update on a lot

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of the geopolitical maschinations and intrigues and
what's going on over in the Ukrana.

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The Okra. As we in the
South, we said, what's that country?

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Okra? Okrah Winfrey, no Okrane, the Okrane. He's gonna be

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telling us about that. And as
you guys know, we had a few

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couple good open forms this last week
thanks to Rachel and Father Deacon doctor Annias

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and the stirring up the hornet's nest
of the Protestant world on Twitter. And

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as you guys know, I have
also stepped into the fray the madness.

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Did you know there's an even lower
tier beyond what you've all experienced and what

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we've all experienced on Twitter, Discord
and YouTube. These are now elite spheres

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because I have dipped my foot into
the tepid, stank cesspool waters of TikTok

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Lives Dreamy. Believe it or not, it's there's an even there's a whole

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other universe. It's even worse.
But it turns out in that universe there's

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a whole heap of people who need
to hear about Orthodoxy and we are underrepresented

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guys over on TikTok. Yes,
I know about that. It's a Chinese

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surveillance app. You don't have to
tell me all that. I've been a

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conspiracy tenfold hat Man since nineteen ninety
nine, I think ninety eight ninety nine

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anyway. But even though it's low
tier, there's a lot of people over

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there. So look, we're getting
kind of like ousted numbers wise by the

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Muslims and the Evangelicals and the Calvinists
and the atheists and everybody over there is

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just balls to the wall crazy,
right, They're they're nuts over there.

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They're a bunch of kuks and goobers. But I feel like we gotta be

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over there, so I'm gonna start
doing a little more. What's here's the

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thing. People like, what do
you mean? TikTok's for sure? No,

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you can live stream on TikTok.
That's the thing. So I did

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a three hour live stream over there, and man, I'm telling you it's

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it's rough, dude, But I
mean it's kind of gotten to where,

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you know, as you guys know
over here the Twitter audience shout out there.

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But on Twitter, we're gonna go
to the open form here in a

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second. You know, for a
while there over here on Twitter, we

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hardly got anybody, right, Nobody
was coming over here because basically, basically,

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you know, we basically there was
no, there's nobody else to debate.

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I mean, let's just be honest. I mean, who else are

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we gonna So it just got into
basically crazy land, and we could only

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have an occasional wine moms spitting bars, you know, spitting spitting Phronsie out

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of her mouth through her Virginia slams
Virginia Slam poetry. Boom. That's now,

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why didn't I think of that damn
joke a long time ago. She's

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throwing out some Virginia Slam poetry.
Remember that anyway, So basically we had

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exhausted the tank of twitters apologists,
so to speak. But it seems like

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now what's happened is there's a lot
of crazy things going on over on Twitter.

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And I've gained about thirty twenty thousand
followers in the last six to eight

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months. So Twitter is blown up
for me, which is good. I

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mean, it's head of air friers
o what it sounds like. So I

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think now with Rachel and these other
people's stern of the hornet's nest, we're

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probably gonna get some more ferile people
and they're welcome to come over here and

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be fair. We don't we don't
shy away from that. We're used to

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it over here. We're not afraid. We don't get scared of the the

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rabies apologists basically, but look if
it were, if it runs out,

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guess what I'll do some dang twitter, I mean, some TikTok open forums,

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you know what I mean. So
people always said, when you're gonna

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debate Destiny, Dude, Look we
offered Destiny debates like four times over four

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years. Destiny always said, I
will not debate theology. I only care

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about politics. I don't care about
politics, So I'm not gonna waste my

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time debating Destiny on Trump or some
bullshit, you know what I mean.

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Like, I don't care about that. I don't care about debating Destiny on

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that. That's what I'm saying.
So if you do want to support the

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show tonight, we're gonna open it
up here in a second. My nose

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attention, because we got we've still
got some allergies over here where I moved

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to. Unfortunately, you can't get
totally away from it. It is not

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cocaine, even though I did move
down south of the equator. Basically,

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not really, But to me,
it feels like if you're if you're in

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Tennessee and you moved down to the
Florida. It's like it's like you're in

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equadoor or something that we've done here
with Tristan in a mud hut. We

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got that battery, we got that
nine bold battery power modem. Speaking of

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Destiny debates, remember that Nightmare debate
when he debated with Tristan. I mean,

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I try to tell Tristan, Look, this dude doesn't I don't think

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he debates in good faith. Maybe
he does more so nowadays. I don't

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know. I don't keep up with
destiny, but destiny seems to be all

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over everywhere. But why is this
dude debating everywhere? Like all of these

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prominent people didn't he debates Zzac?
What the heck? Why in the hell

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is Zzac? So basically, there's
no such things intellectual academia anymore. Not

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that I was a huge Zazac fan, but it just seems a little odd.

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But I guess we help we help
bulldoz that whole notion. There's the

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respectable, you know, academic strere, and then there's YouTubers. Right,

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well, I guess we helped bulldos
that because you know, we've been out

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here debating. Yeah, Zzac slurping
and Jay sniffing, That's what I'm talking

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about, these slipping a slip up
of this piece she's come. I would

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do sniffing and slipping exactly by the
way I'm putting together a stand up routine.

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And then I was listing all my
impressions because I think, if I'm

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gonna do my stand up, it's
got to be kind of it's gotta be

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a little impression heavy, because that's
kind of, you know, my forte

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at this moment. But I started
thinking, man, nobody in the the

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only audience that stand that would work
for is our audience, which is okay,

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because I can promote our audience to
come to the stand up event.

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But like if I go out and
do stand up with a bunch of normies,

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do they don't. They don't have
a clue what's going on. Nobody

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know who zzek is. Y'a no
no, no no abata though, y'a

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no no no abati Thoughoo, all
right, let's open it up with this

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yip you have in a nonsense.
So tonight's topics and we will stick to

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the topics. If you don't stick
to the topics, boom, you're out

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of here. I'm gonna delete your
butt. Topics are as you guys know,

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things like the dative Christ, the
Trinity, Biblical theology, Old Testament

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and Testament relations, judaizing he were
Israelite. We can bring up that stuff.

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I don't care. Church history,
the law, workspace, salvation,

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soul of Fita. This soul is
the Protestant stuff, tag press up,

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classical apologetics, evidentialism, logos,
logi, uncreated energies as, palmism,

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comparative religion, Calvinism, predestination,
christology, the energies, the Vatican,

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Church history, papacy, echumenical councils, cannons, the ep schism, orthodoxy,

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pistemology. All those are on the
table tonight, and anything adjacent to

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those things you may all still bring
up. It's not restricted to that specific

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list. I'm just giving you an
idea. Don't call me, call in

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about crazy stuff. We're not here
to talk about nanotech tonight. We're not

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here to talk about James Bond movies. We're not here to talk about whatever.

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Whoever, well who will definitely call
in and start talking about those stuff.

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No, not tonight. There's a
million live streams all the time where

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we talk about that stuff, calling
on that one that's not tonight. By

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the way, you could still get
the philosophy course with Richard that's available below.

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We also have a events coming up
with Richard. I forgot to put

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the thing if you know, we
did it last year on entrepreneurship, becoming

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your own business person and all that
self motivated, self sovereignty, that kind

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of stuff, which is all good, especially as things get crazier. That

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is coming up this weekend. I
think I'm trying to remember who's involved in

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it. Corbett, Me, Benny
Wills, usual people, Richard. But

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you can also get the philosophy course
there at the Autonomy Gore Marketplace. And

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then I forget what I ever.
We got other events coming up, but

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basically, this tomorrow night, Jamie
and I are gonna do the full pierced

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Brasen and Era a bond. That's
gonna be a lot of fun because I

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did a couple of those maybe three
years ago, and Jamie didn't feel like

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she wasn't feeling good, so she
didn't join me. And you know,

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basically that's mom Bond. We're talking
about Mom cor Era, right, Mom

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Bond. Pierce browsening is mom Bond. You start talking about Sean Canary and

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that's that's Grandma Bond's. That's your
aunt's bond. No, no, we're

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talking Mom Bond. That's Pierce.
So we're gonna have a lot of fun

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deep and analysiszations, bays lit analysis
izations of the purse browsings. That's gonna

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be fun tomorrow night. And by
the way, I've gone back and rewatch

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these found all kinds of little nuggets, little golden nuggets, little golden eyed

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nuggets that I didn't notice. So
it's gonna be a lot of fun.

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All right, it's open for him. Remember, I know I'm gonna have

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to tell you a million times,
so I'm just I'm just gonna accept it.

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I'm just gonna accept that y'all aren't
gonna remember to mute. And that's

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okay. I still love you,
even sassy Silk Spector, who I see

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up to the front of the line. What's up, Silk Spector? And

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we'll go to you first, because
we've had you on many times and you

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are a polite And where'd you go? You'd you dipped off? Why did

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you dip out? There? You
go stay in here? Stat what are

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you doing? In and out and
out? We're gonna go to you first

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because I like you. You're a
nice person, You're fun. One of

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our Roman Catholic friends. So remember
when we go to you, gotta hit

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on mute. Uh oh. We're
gonna be planning and trying to get you

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know, some more stuff going on
with Tim Gordon. So we have a

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lot of Roman callity friends. We
love our Roman Catholics. We vehemently disagree,

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but we still love them. So
this has disproved the idea who what's

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up? Silk spector what's on your
mind tonight? Maybe? Is this thing

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acting weird tonight? Every time I
want to do this, Twitter starts acting

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weird and I don't care about.
I'm gonna keep calling on Twitter. I

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don't give a damn. It says
that you are here. Let me invite

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you to speak. How's that?
Can you come on now? Hi?

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Can you hear anything? What's what's
on your mind tonight? Hi? I

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get to talk to you. I
don't know many times I think I only

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remember twice. But yeah, well
I'm trying to be friendly. So I

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mean you want me to go back
to being mean, I can do it.

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I don't know if there's anything to
go back to being mean for Yeah.

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No, Well, thanks for having
me on again. I appreciate.

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How are you this eating? I'm
good. I'm I'm a little tired from

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moving and getting things settled and all
that, but I'm raring to go.

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It's been I think at least four
or five days since open Forums, so

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I'm ready to go. Now,
last time we I DMed the Alexandria Document.

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Did you get a chance to look
at that? I did? I

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did, But it's been a bit
of a that was a while ago.

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It was about two months ago at
night. That's okay, I have it

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freshened my mind perfect. Well,
yeah, if you can ever refresh my

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memory? And what do you want
to talk about? It that you great?

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Why I want to talk Well,
I mean you called in so we

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can talk about what you want to
talk about. But the reason that I

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bring up the Alexander Document is because, as I remember saying to you,

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this to me is one of the
strongest more recent admissions that we have with

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papal approval that the modus operandi of
the church in the first thousand years is

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basically what the Orthodox Church has been
complaining about for a long time. So

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we have about ninety nine of the
admissions. Not everything, but pretty much

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everything that we as Orthodox would complain
about is basically conceded in this Francis approved

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commission. Great, so why are
you still complaining then? Well, for

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multiple reasons. I mean, if
you watch Tim Gordon's dream that he did

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the other day, I would agree
with Tim that this is not really a

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genuine union because if this document is
now, I mean, this is not

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his argument. He was just agreeing
that this is really a geopolitically motivated union.

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It's not really about theology in the
final analysis, because Francis is really

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there to promote things like the multi
faith Abi Dhabi, kris Lam, you

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know, say Enter and all that. So why would we want to join

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with that just because Rome is admitting
our theological argumentation from the last thousand years.

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And the other point is simply that
this document is true, then Vatican

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One's not true. Well, I
mean that's pretty strong assertion. I don't

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see how you can say that.
Wait, what's so strong assur that if

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this document is true, Vatican one
isn't true. I don't see that that

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follows. Well, did you read
the document, I did, But like

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I said, I don't. I
didn't get that impression, I guess,

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And this is your opinion. So
if you want to tell me how you're

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qualifying that, well, it's I
don't know if i'd say it's an opinion.

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I mean, the document is arguing
that Pallemism is an expression of the

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Orthodox Church, is not an opinion
in the Orthodox Church. It's admitting that

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the synodal system was the normal way
that the Church was governed in the first

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thousand years, and it's admitting that, you know, canonical appeals do not

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prove universal jurisdiction, and so these
are some of the strongest arguments that were

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used by Roman Catholics to you know, bolster the claims of Vatican One.

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So basically, this is admitting that
a lot of what's in Vatican One isn't

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really the case. So how are
we supposed to still accept Vatican One?

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Well, I don't know. It's
admitting that. I think that's a bit

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of a jump year making there.
I think that, you know, again,

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I'm not a theologian. You're obviously
much more learned than I am.

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I did get the impression that there
was a strong desire. It seemed on

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the Catholic side from those documents to
Reconcile and Alice, Which has come back

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to something you said earlier where you
were saying, you know, Francis is

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interested in this. I don't even
exactly know what you called it, but

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it seemed to be suggesting that he's
interested in some sort of Cumanistic world.

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Really, I mean, yeah,
you he signed with the EMM the statement

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that is the basis for the Vatican
approved multi Faith center, and you think

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you don't think that's a good thing. Do you think it is? Well,

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I don't exactly know what center you're
speaking about, but well, I

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mean, would you like to look
at the video that I shared from the

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center. It's on my Twitter right
below this. Sure I can I can

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do that. I can't do it
right now right as you want to have

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someone else on it, and I'll
quickly go watch it and then well,

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so I would say, yeah,
actually I would recommend that, so pop

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out and then I'll bring you back
on. And it's I retweeted it,

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so it's at the top of my
Twitter feed and I will also show it

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to the audience here real quick,
right, well, I mean just before

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we do that, and I'm happy
to do that. I do sense listening

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to a lot of your vig or
content, I suppose that you seem very

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against that particular avenue of reconciliation that
I guess you could call it maybe an

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agenda that Francis is pote Francis has
put forward to you, kind of gather

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up and reconcile people that are not
out or that are outside the Catholic Church.

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I just I'm just wondering why that's
a problem. I mean, isn't

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that kind of what he's supposed to
be doing. Well, I mean,

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it's a problem if Rome Gotholicism isn't
true. So that's the main issue,

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is that if the papacy is true, then yeah, I guess it would

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be that would be his job to
do that. Sure, But but as

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I'm saying, the admissions in the
Alexandria Docment really are night and day with

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what's in Vatican One. I mean, Vatican One is really strong. It's

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an ultramontane council. It doesn't have
anything to do with synodality. It has

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to do with the universal unilateral authority
of the Roman bishop and the prior document

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before Alexandria. You go back to
twenty sixteen, I think the Chad document.

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It's the same commission basically under Francis. It admits at the very bottom

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that the Roman Church did not operate
with unilateral universal authority in the first thousand

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years. Well, that's essentially what
Vatican One is all about. So why

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would we as Orthodox accept the doctrine
of Vatican One if it's admitted that it's

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not the practice and motorsupperandi of the
Church in the first thousand years. That's

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the entire Orthodox argument. This means
that papal papolotry is an innovation apoloshry.

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That's interesting. Yeah, I mean
I again, like, I'm not alive,

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I'm not a llegal like, I
don't know. I listened to these

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dreams sometimes and you seem to get
very legalistic, and it's funny to me

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because that's often as well. Hold
on legalistic. I mean, Roman Catholicism

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has a giant book of canon laws. How is this legalistic? I know,

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That's what I was just about to
say. That's why I find it

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sometimes funny how the Orthodox will,
you know, accuse Catholics of being very

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legalistic and then kind of take this
trap to to bolster their defenses. I

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suppose you could say, I mean
again, I'm happy to pop out and

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pop by again. I'll give you
my opinion, but it's going to be

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very unlearned opinion because all right,
well that's fun. Yeah, go watch

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that. I'm a player right now. It's not very long. It's only

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like a minute and a half.
And then we'll come back to you and

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whatever questions you wanted to go to. Oh all right, seein yeah,

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and let me play this for you
guys. I think you guys on Twitter

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we'll be able to hear it.
So this is the multi faith center that

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they built and oh it's a conspiracy. No, it's not a conspiracy.

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There. They built it, and
we said for years they were going to

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do it because France has signed the
Joint Declaration with the Grand Imam. I'm

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sorry, but we don't have a
joint faith with Muslims and Jews. There

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might be elements that we have in
common. We do recognize a higher power

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and this kind of stuff, but
just because there's some commonalities, it doesn't

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mean that we have a joint Abrahamic
faith. Paul says that only those who

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are of the faith of Abraham are
sons of God and sons of Abraham.

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Jesus says, you are of your
father the devil if you do not believe

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that he is the son of God, and if you do not believe in

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the Trinity. And so, for
example, after six public debates with prominent

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Muslims, now it is various evident
that they do not have the same faith

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as we do. They are Aryan
or worse than Arian. Do you think

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that the nice scene Creed does it
speak as if the Aryan and the nice

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Scene Creed believer have a common faith? Of course not. Well, then

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how much more so do we not
have a common faith with Muslims or with

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Jews. It's just simply not.
Okay, there is no such thing as

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generic Embrahamic monotheism. There is only
Trinitarian theism. Now, let's watch this

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video and see so multi multi faith, multicultural, everybody's blending together in this

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giant facility with three different buildings that's
supposed to give the impression that everybody has

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the same faith, and they all
meet together in the center lighting these weird

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candles or whatever that is bringing in
the fricking cubes from from transformers, energy

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cues or whatever that is. And
so now there's three lights, like some

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kind of weird false triad or something
like that. So again the fact that

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a person has some I mean,
let's say I'll talk into a theistic Satanist

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and they say, I believe in
one God. I just believe it's Satan.

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Oh, well, I guess we
have the same faith because you believe

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in one God and we believe one
God. This is called a quantify or

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shift fallacy. Right, It's a
famous fallacy because everybody has one mother.

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We all have the same mother.
You see. It's a it's a quantifying

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shift, and that's why it's a
fallacy. And so this faith center was

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built with the blessing of Francis,
and it's inspired by Francis's document on human

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fraternity, because we're all brothers,
you see. But this goes even further.

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It doesn't say that we're all brothers
just because we have a common father

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Adam or something like that, some
sort of generic human brother. This is

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actually saying that well, with Jews
and Muslims, we share a common Abrahamic

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faith. And this underlies all of
the heresies involved in natural theology, which

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lead to perennialism. There is the
AllSpark, Yeah, exactly, the AllSpark

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bringing in the all spark energy cubes
over here. Optimis prime. Abraham worshiped

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the Trinity. You didn't have to
use the terms trinity for all you slow

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people out there, but Abraham worshiped
the Triad. That's why an Orthodox iconography.

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Everybody who knows icons automatically knows that
theology better than Roman Catholics and Protestants.

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And so I did a lecture everybody
should go watch years ago where we

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looked at how the triad is an
Old Testament doctrine. And if you saw

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the debate with Daniel Pikachu, we
brought that up here. It is.

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This is from almost five years ago, a three hour talk on the Trinity

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and the Old Testament. And I
realize, now I'm going to have to

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do I'm gonna have to do a
whole other redo of all this course,

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because now that I've been reading all
of the Jewish scholars, we have a

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massive Jewish scholars now admitting that,
yeah, the Old Testament teaches not a

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generic Unitarian theism. It teaches a
distinction of persons in God. Even then,

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right multiplicity of personae. According to
Summer, Schaeffer's books talk about this.

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Siegel's books talk about this, and
so the point is that as Summer

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no, not Summer Shaeffer, no. Boyarin, another one of the Jewish

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scholars, as I Boyarin, says, early Christianity is really just a conservative

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form of Judaism that is being consistent
with the Old Testament attacks and the fact

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that they teach multiplicity and God even
throughout the Old Testament. Because obviously,

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do you think nobody had seen all
the Angel Lord passages until what the Church

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fathers until justin Martyr. No,
of course you have multiple passages that teach

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there is Yahweh, there is the
Angel of Yahweh, in whom is the

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name of Yahweh according to Exodus three
and twenty three. And then who's also

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known as not just Angel, but
also the one like a son of Man,

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one like the son of God,
over and over and over throughout the

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passages. And then in many,
many, many passages, the presence of

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this other spirit, the Spirit will
speak. He speaks. So the Spirit

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has personhood not just in John sixteen
and seventeen, but also throughout the Old

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Testament. He's a vine person identified
as a divine person. So does this

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mean that Abraham confessed with his lips
the phrase trinity. No, he doesn't

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have to. Okay, nobody's arguing
that. But you'll notice when I debated

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Trent, Trent made a huge mistake
theologically when he said that the Old Testament

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teaches a generic Unitarian deity and the
New Testament tax on this new doctrine of

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trinity. Indeed, to Christ,
oh yeah, exactly, that's why your

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church is heterodox. You just proved
to me that all of your Vatican too

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theology is heterodox. And proved because
you understand when Trent admits that the whole

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debate was over because he's just being
consistent with Abu Dhabi faith center that we

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all have a generic God that we
worship. Well, maybe you guys do,

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but everybody that's Orthodox and really believes
it, truly Orthodox, they know

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that the icon of Abraham eating with
the ruble of Icon teaches the Trinity.

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So you understand, you're being taught
a different faith if you're not being taught

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the Trinity and the Old Testament.
Now I know that some of these Roman

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Catholics say, well, Laru is
a kind of Trinity, and the Old

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Testament. But there's something that we
know later. No, Abraham rejoiced to

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see my day. He saw it
and was glad Moses wrote about me,

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so that it's this is not like
some far off thing. And here's the

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irony. I remember asking Trent.
I was like, Trent, how do

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you do apologetics against Muslims? Like
if you're not going to argue the way

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that I argue against the Muslims and
the way that every Orthodox person would do

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apologetics against Muslims, like you're undercutting
your own possession. This is It's not

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that difficult. I mean you may
think I'm being legalistic or I'm being obsessive.

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I don't know what terms you think
it is. I mean this is

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just straight up Patristic theology. I
mean when Justin Martyr argues with Trifo the

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Jew, he makes the arguments I'm
making. When the New Testament writers argue

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to prove deity of Christ and Trinity
and the Old Testament, they make the

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arguments you hear me making. Where
do you do you think I just make

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00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:30.400
up these arguments about the Trinity and
the Old Testament, Like I just I

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00:35:30.519 --> 00:35:39.000
just came, I just invented this
speculating it's common patristic apologetics. And if

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you look at the Joint Declaration of
the Vatican with or the I think it's

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00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:50.519
the US Conference of Catholic Bishops.
It was approved by John Paul or ever

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00:35:50.559 --> 00:35:54.400
get who, maybe even Ratzinger.
I mean, if you look at Ratzinger's

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book, Many Faiths, One Covenant, I mean he affirms all this same

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nonsense that the Old Testament is still
valid, and he implies it's valid in

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a selvific way. And all of
this is to say that we all have

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a common faith, we all have
an a shared a Brahmic faith. No

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we don't. I mean, this
is as silly as imagine Saint Basil or

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00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:29.639
Athanasius saying we have a common faith
with the Eunomians. It's literally no different

400
00:36:29.639 --> 00:36:43.199
than that. Go ahead, Hi, yeah, sure, yeah, no,

401
00:36:43.320 --> 00:36:45.719
so I just watched the video.
It's yeah, I would agree.

402
00:36:45.719 --> 00:36:50.159
It's a little strange. I don't
I don't really get the like glowing lights

403
00:36:50.239 --> 00:36:52.360
part or like what that's supposed to
symbolize. That's not even a strange port.

404
00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:55.519
The s transport is the theology behind
us. Do you think that we

405
00:36:55.679 --> 00:37:01.280
have a common faith with Muslims.
Well, I think that there's grace to

406
00:37:01.400 --> 00:37:08.960
be found in other faiths, but
God allows that's not. No, no,

407
00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:13.679
that's not what we asked though.
The question is not are there graces

408
00:37:14.440 --> 00:37:19.079
for everybody in the world or in
other religions. The question is the faith,

409
00:37:19.199 --> 00:37:22.480
the belief system, the theology.
Is there a common theology that we

410
00:37:22.599 --> 00:37:29.119
share with that that makes us children
of Abraham with Muslims and Jews. No,

411
00:37:29.639 --> 00:37:30.480
no, I don't agree with that. Okay, well, then you've

412
00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:36.840
now just rejected Vatican Too's theology of
nos ratante. No I haven't. Yes,

413
00:37:36.920 --> 00:37:40.840
you have that's literally not that's literally
a nos rotating. Where is it

414
00:37:40.880 --> 00:37:45.519
a nostratate? I mean it's a
very short document and it explicitly says that

415
00:37:45.639 --> 00:37:49.400
we have this. I mean the
whole faith center is called the Abradic Faith

416
00:37:49.440 --> 00:37:52.519
Center. Yeah, I mean I
think this faith center from this very cursory

417
00:37:52.599 --> 00:37:55.280
look you've just shared with me,
I mean, it seems like a pretty

418
00:37:55.280 --> 00:38:00.199
bad idea. I think people it's
based on no state from Vatican Too.

419
00:38:00.800 --> 00:38:04.800
I don't know what you mean,
based on the theology. It's there,

420
00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:06.800
go read it. I'm not trying
to be rude. We're gonna move on,

421
00:38:06.920 --> 00:38:09.719
though, But go read No stratat
It's about five pages and you'll see

422
00:38:09.719 --> 00:38:14.719
that app everything I said is absolutely
true. But we're gonna move on.

423
00:38:14.920 --> 00:38:20.280
So let's see who's next. Ut
D x D. What's up dude?

424
00:38:22.840 --> 00:38:28.800
Now? Before she before we go
to ut D x D or whatever,

425
00:38:28.960 --> 00:38:36.000
let's look up no Stratate so people
don't think I'm making it up. So

426
00:38:36.119 --> 00:38:39.840
it's like people don't know the Vatican
documents. I'm not being a dick.

427
00:38:39.920 --> 00:38:46.920
I'm just saying that it's just a
fact the Church regards with esteem the Muslims.

428
00:38:51.119 --> 00:38:58.159
They are They adore the One True
God, living, merciful, all

429
00:38:58.239 --> 00:39:04.199
powerful, et cetera, just as
Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam

430
00:39:04.280 --> 00:39:07.239
takes pleasure and linking itself submitted to
God. And then it says, of

431
00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:13.280
course they don't acknowledge Him as God, Jesus as God. But the implication

432
00:39:13.400 --> 00:39:22.599
here is that you are supposed to
esteem radical anti trinitarians and those who hate

433
00:39:22.599 --> 00:39:30.280
the deity of Christ. So you
understand that Muslims historically at least think that

434
00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:35.199
it's shirk to say that a man
is God. There's been quite a bit

435
00:39:35.239 --> 00:39:37.639
of warfare. You might have heard
of this stuff over the years over these

436
00:39:37.719 --> 00:39:44.719
topics, but it explicitly references the
faith of Abraham. And that's why Francis

437
00:39:44.800 --> 00:39:47.159
and countless other I mean, why
do you think Francis goes and praising the

438
00:39:47.239 --> 00:39:53.880
mosques towards Mecca as did the supposed
trade Benedict sixteenth By the way, so

439
00:39:54.000 --> 00:40:05.360
let's get rid of this notion that
Benedict with some trad pope praise two ward

440
00:40:05.679 --> 00:40:19.480
Mecca. Pope Francis play praise alongside
the Grand Mufti in the blue mask towards

441
00:40:19.559 --> 00:40:31.480
Mecca, and so did uh the
rad trad Benedict. Benedict is not a

442
00:40:31.559 --> 00:40:36.960
rad tread if you've read about six
of his books as all the same modernism

443
00:40:37.159 --> 00:40:44.559
as all the other Vatican too gaggle, So totally nonsense, totally mythological faith,

444
00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:51.840
mythological LARPing that Benedict as a trad
it's just not true. I mean,

445
00:40:51.960 --> 00:40:54.800
he might have thrown a few bones
to the trads, like his Motio

446
00:40:54.800 --> 00:41:00.639
approprio for the Latin Mass, but
so, I mean, you don't you

447
00:41:00.679 --> 00:41:06.639
don't understand bureaucracy and throwing bones to
people to keep them keep them. Oh

448
00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:09.239
it's so try. Let you let
us have them. Let you have the

449
00:41:09.320 --> 00:41:15.639
masks. Man anyway, what's up? O T D x D. I

450
00:41:15.679 --> 00:41:20.880
guess he dropped out? Where did
you go? Calton Shayler? What's up?

451
00:41:20.960 --> 00:41:30.719
Dude? You understand that? Okay, Hey, what's up? Yes?

452
00:41:30.800 --> 00:41:35.480
Man? All right? Sounds good. First off, shout out to

453
00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:38.280
Jay's analysis dot com. Those part
two is are worth it. Thank you.

454
00:41:39.079 --> 00:41:45.960
I just had a few questions of
I guess trying to synthesize different points

455
00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:50.119
and arguments I've heard you and others
make in discussions, so I'd love to

456
00:41:50.199 --> 00:41:58.400
hear your feedback on these. I've
heard one criticism leveraged against Islam is that

457
00:42:00.039 --> 00:42:04.719
God has to be essentially an eternal
creator because of how they argue that that

458
00:42:04.840 --> 00:42:07.239
he has the aspect, so creation
has to be eternal for him to be

459
00:42:07.320 --> 00:42:14.880
an internal creator. If I understand
that that consequence correctly. In comparison,

460
00:42:15.079 --> 00:42:20.840
I've heard a separate argument independently from
that first point for the trinity by saying

461
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:24.880
that, well that you know there
must be three persons in God for God

462
00:42:25.159 --> 00:42:30.519
to exhibit the characteristic of love.
And if I understood these two points right,

463
00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:34.000
it seems like a parallel argument is
that you know the trinity must be

464
00:42:34.079 --> 00:42:37.239
true because in order for God to
be loved, he must have someone else

465
00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:43.199
to eternally love. Therefore, their
multiple persons are these two aspects like parallel

466
00:42:43.239 --> 00:42:45.840
at all a right. So,
in other words, love couldn't be just

467
00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:52.000
a self referencing thing necessitate some kind
of other. This is an argument that

468
00:42:52.079 --> 00:42:59.559
you see in Losky Andreyev stan Eloy. So the idea is that not just

469
00:43:00.280 --> 00:43:07.760
love it's somef but actually any attribute
to be exercised requires something other than the

470
00:43:07.880 --> 00:43:14.880
first principle to exercise that attribute.
So the exchange of glove, the movement

471
00:43:14.920 --> 00:43:17.880
in the triad of all the energies, really requires something more than just a

472
00:43:17.920 --> 00:43:23.000
generic unity. Because if it's just
God from all eternity, where are any

473
00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:27.880
of these energies direct. There's no
created order, there's nothing else, there's

474
00:43:27.920 --> 00:43:35.239
no other hypostasis. So in the
triad you have a unique position where there

475
00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:42.719
is an eternal exchange of the eternal
attributes and energies in the sense of what

476
00:43:43.199 --> 00:43:46.000
Palamas calls the energies that are true
from all eternity versus the ones that are

477
00:43:46.079 --> 00:43:50.480
only applicable to the created order.
So, for example, the power of

478
00:43:50.599 --> 00:43:55.400
creating God eternally has the power of
creating, but he doesn't exercise for all

479
00:43:55.480 --> 00:44:00.760
eternity the power of creating. Otherwise
there's eternal worlds, right, and we

480
00:44:00.840 --> 00:44:05.800
don't think that, we think that
God created exnilo. So in order to

481
00:44:05.920 --> 00:44:09.199
have ex nilo, you have to
have and God having free will. You

482
00:44:09.320 --> 00:44:14.960
have to have this notion of God
having in some way capacities that he doesn't

483
00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:19.760
have to exercise unless he wills to. And so when Palomas cashes these ality

484
00:44:19.880 --> 00:44:25.079
talks about the energies or operations that
are the case or are exercise from all

485
00:44:25.159 --> 00:44:31.400
eternity that do not require created order, like glory or love right, because

486
00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:36.920
the love is exchanged between the persons
of the triad, Father's Son and Spirit.

487
00:44:36.960 --> 00:44:39.119
By the way, love is not
identical to the person. Holy Spirit

488
00:44:39.239 --> 00:44:43.920
loves an energy or an operation or
naturally they're all free share, so it

489
00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:47.280
can't be reducible to one of the
persons. So in order to have a

490
00:44:47.920 --> 00:44:53.159
truly free God, you have to
have some distinction in different types of acts.

491
00:44:53.199 --> 00:44:57.519
And this Palomas makes this stinction,
but it actually goes back to Athanaceous.

492
00:44:57.920 --> 00:45:02.719
If you read Fluorovsky's essay Creation and
Creaturehood or Athenasians in the Doctrinal Creation.

493
00:45:04.320 --> 00:45:07.239
That essay has a really good argument
about how the essence in your distinction

494
00:45:07.360 --> 00:45:14.079
is basically in Athanasius when he makes
this distinction between different types of movements and

495
00:45:14.119 --> 00:45:17.840
actions and God, for example,
generating a person father generating the sun is

496
00:45:17.880 --> 00:45:22.000
clearly different from the action of creating
a world. So not all of God's

497
00:45:22.159 --> 00:45:27.119
acts, so to speak, are
identical. Creating the world is an action

498
00:45:27.239 --> 00:45:32.800
proper to will, the generating the
sun is not by will. So the

499
00:45:34.280 --> 00:45:39.320
trinitarian argument there is that you have
an unique position with the trinity, whereby

500
00:45:39.440 --> 00:45:47.039
God does really manifest and exercise various
eternal attributes. And yes, I understand

501
00:45:47.079 --> 00:45:51.800
that in a sense they're all eternal, but they're not all eternally actualized.

502
00:45:52.159 --> 00:45:53.519
Some of them are. However,
there was no point, for example,

503
00:45:53.559 --> 00:45:59.760
at which God was not manifesting his
glory. There's no glory wasn't dependent upon

504
00:45:59.760 --> 00:46:06.360
a created world. But divine providence
is an energy and operation that does require

505
00:46:06.440 --> 00:46:12.639
a created world. So God was
not always actualizing divine providence, you see,

506
00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:15.400
So there has to be this distinction, otherwise we're caught in all these

507
00:46:15.440 --> 00:46:24.119
stupid positions of various modial collapse arguments, just like when Thomas collapse God into

508
00:46:24.199 --> 00:46:29.639
pure act. So yeah, so
that's the essencenergy distinction as it applies to

509
00:46:29.840 --> 00:46:35.639
the trinity, and that's why Unitarian
conceptions are always typically fraught with this problem.

510
00:46:35.719 --> 00:46:40.480
Now, there's are some Muslim schools
that don't believe in a kind of

511
00:46:40.679 --> 00:46:46.599
strict ads. Some of the schools
do and some of them don't. So

512
00:46:47.079 --> 00:46:51.440
like if you're talking to a Shia
and they're going to be basically neoplatonists,

513
00:46:51.599 --> 00:46:55.360
right, they're gonna follow al Ghazali
in a type of neo platonic emanation type

514
00:46:55.400 --> 00:47:01.360
of thing. But the traditional Sunni, who are well, everybody's mostly encountering

515
00:47:01.960 --> 00:47:09.199
classic sunny stuff, they have their
own kind of distinction between attributes and essence

516
00:47:09.280 --> 00:47:13.920
and in a law, but that's
not the essence inter distinction. And also

517
00:47:14.360 --> 00:47:20.599
it's not really cashed out as a
distinction between the action of creating and all

518
00:47:20.679 --> 00:47:25.000
laws essence. So it's just doesn't
get that sophisticated typically. So does that

519
00:47:25.079 --> 00:47:31.599
make sense? Yeah, So you
know, Trinitarian theology has articulated two classes

520
00:47:31.760 --> 00:47:37.760
or essentially elements, like you've described
that rational or explain this distinction well to

521
00:47:37.880 --> 00:47:44.679
be very precise. Palma speaks of
three planes of action. So there is

522
00:47:44.760 --> 00:47:51.119
the action of generating, and that's
the movement in the trinity of the Father,

523
00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:53.800
excuse me, the son proceeding from
the Father, and excuse me,

524
00:47:53.880 --> 00:47:59.159
the son being generated from the Father, and in the Spirit moving from the

525
00:47:59.239 --> 00:48:01.719
Father through the son. That's an
eternal and returning back to the Father.

526
00:48:01.840 --> 00:48:07.280
That's an eternal triadic movement. That
is the first plane, and that's the

527
00:48:08.400 --> 00:48:16.920
personal origins or hypostatic origins or hypstatic
properties plane pla ay that we can describe

528
00:48:16.960 --> 00:48:22.320
the polymers described. The second plane
would be the movements of the energies from

529
00:48:22.320 --> 00:48:27.880
all eternity that are not dependent on
the created order. And so that would

530
00:48:27.880 --> 00:48:30.880
be the movement of the energies that
like I said, like love or glory,

531
00:48:31.400 --> 00:48:36.360
that we're always also manifesting from the
Father through the Son and in the

532
00:48:36.400 --> 00:48:42.000
Spirit. Those are eternal, eternally
manifesting uncreated energies. And then you have

533
00:48:42.159 --> 00:48:46.679
the uncreated energies that only applied to
the created order. That would be also

534
00:48:46.960 --> 00:48:52.559
typically characterized as the economia like divine
providence. Right, this kind of stuff,

535
00:48:53.320 --> 00:48:57.519
or the action of creating or the
action of walking on water. I

536
00:48:57.559 --> 00:49:00.920
mean, there's all these actions that
are unique to the creator order that are

537
00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:04.639
not actualized from all eternity, you
see, And you can't just say that,

538
00:49:04.719 --> 00:49:07.079
well, the actualizing is the created
element. But from all eternity.

539
00:49:07.159 --> 00:49:09.639
Christ was walking on water. No, no, no, that's an action

540
00:49:09.760 --> 00:49:16.000
in time. It's not an eternal
from all time. That compromises the reality

541
00:49:16.119 --> 00:49:21.199
of the second person that God had
in time and space. It really is

542
00:49:21.280 --> 00:49:25.760
the second person that God had walking
on water as a divine energy your action,

543
00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:30.159
and that's different from the action of
creating the world, which is also

544
00:49:30.239 --> 00:49:35.000
a divine power. Obviously, so
not every divine power is identical. Clearly

545
00:49:35.840 --> 00:49:40.000
what creating the world is not the
conflagration. Clearly, this is so dumb,

546
00:49:40.519 --> 00:49:45.480
obviously, But when you have this
radical modical lapse ADS position, you're

547
00:49:45.519 --> 00:49:50.039
stuck with all these stupid ideas that
walking on water is the same action in

548
00:49:50.199 --> 00:49:52.760
God as creating the world, and
the same action as destroying the world.

549
00:49:53.599 --> 00:49:58.239
So anyway, those are the three
planes, and I'm not to be really

550
00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:02.000
precise, that does not mean that
the third plane of the economia that that's

551
00:50:02.079 --> 00:50:07.679
only restricted to the operations of God
proper to the create order. The eternal

552
00:50:09.559 --> 00:50:15.159
movements in God that are not dependent
on the created order also enter into the

553
00:50:15.239 --> 00:50:21.440
economia. So it's not just providence
and creating and walking on water. It

554
00:50:21.639 --> 00:50:24.840
is also eternal law and eternal glory
that also come into the economia. So

555
00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:34.440
those are the three planes hypostatic origin, eternal manifestation, and economia. I

556
00:50:34.559 --> 00:50:39.000
see, and those those excellent.
Just to steal man Islamic apologetics, you've

557
00:50:39.119 --> 00:50:43.679
argued that they have this modal collapse
because of you know, the common schools.

558
00:50:44.119 --> 00:50:46.000
Do you from your experience, do
you believe that these minor schools you

559
00:50:46.079 --> 00:50:51.519
mentioned would be if they started to
imitate these planes, would they be able

560
00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:54.000
to resurrect and solve these problems?
Or is there something in the foundation now?

561
00:50:54.079 --> 00:51:01.480
No, because actually, typically the
traditional Stonies tend to say when you

562
00:51:01.599 --> 00:51:07.280
start to ask things like the dependence
relations in Allah of the attributes and their

563
00:51:07.360 --> 00:51:12.639
relation to the essence, they typically
say things like it is not permitted to

564
00:51:12.679 --> 00:51:17.639
ask beyond this point. Okay,
excellent. I had a couple more questions

565
00:51:17.639 --> 00:51:22.480
if that's okay? Sure? I
okay. So once again, two separate

566
00:51:22.559 --> 00:51:25.920
arguments I've heard from two different Christian
apologetics. I wanted to try and reconcile

567
00:51:27.000 --> 00:51:31.280
these in your in your Trinity.
You your response to mister e on the

568
00:51:31.320 --> 00:51:36.840
Trinity years ago, which I honestly
is probably the most important video on YouTube.

569
00:51:38.079 --> 00:51:43.159
You The point you keep rehashing as
a foundational point argument is that we

570
00:51:43.199 --> 00:51:46.280
cannot worship creatures, and so when
Jesus accept worship that that is a sign

571
00:51:46.320 --> 00:51:52.119
of his divinity, because you're allowed
to worship God but not creatures. I

572
00:51:52.199 --> 00:51:59.119
have heard a separate apologetic argument for
veneration of Mary and of icons, the

573
00:51:59.239 --> 00:52:04.400
argument being that we are allowed to
worship maybe people in authority or spiritual authority

574
00:52:04.639 --> 00:52:09.159
in maybe worship or venerate in proxy
to God, and so you may venerate

575
00:52:09.239 --> 00:52:14.239
the saints or Mary in proxy to
you know, the energies of God that

576
00:52:14.320 --> 00:52:15.960
thinks of it, or with respect
to the fact that God has established the

577
00:52:16.119 --> 00:52:22.119
positions. Is this a veneration versus
worship distinction? Are these arguments incompatible?

578
00:52:22.239 --> 00:52:25.079
Could you clarify this concept of when
we can worship creatures or not at all?

579
00:52:27.519 --> 00:52:31.400
We cannot worship creatures with the worship
proper to God at all, and

580
00:52:31.639 --> 00:52:37.280
so the only reason, as you
noted there, that we venerate creatures at

581
00:52:37.320 --> 00:52:43.000
all is because of the participation in
the divine energies. So if we are

582
00:52:43.320 --> 00:52:49.079
reverencing the body of a saint,
what makes that body wholly is the presence

583
00:52:49.119 --> 00:52:53.639
of the uncreated energy. So but
that is still not we're not worshiping that

584
00:52:54.079 --> 00:53:01.559
saint, because worship proper is only
given as saint. Cyril says that Ephesis

585
00:53:02.280 --> 00:53:07.880
one adoration to the whole incarnate Christ. So Christ gets a unique adoration and

586
00:53:08.039 --> 00:53:13.320
worship, which is the worship proper
to God, because he is, as

587
00:53:13.440 --> 00:53:16.000
Cyril says, it is the body
of the God Man. And so in

588
00:53:16.119 --> 00:53:21.760
that regard it is worthy worship because
He took it upon himself and deified it.

589
00:53:22.280 --> 00:53:27.639
However, in the saints and these
kinds of you know, connections,

590
00:53:27.719 --> 00:53:32.079
they're certainly connected to God, but
we do not venerate the body of the

591
00:53:32.239 --> 00:53:39.920
saint with the same adoration of veneration
that we give to Christ. Fantastic,

592
00:53:40.199 --> 00:53:45.400
excellent, any question about I guess
low Church Protestantism by the way, By

593
00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:50.559
the way, the video that you
reference for everybody, I forgot about,

594
00:53:50.639 --> 00:53:52.440
mister e Yeah, this was a
thing I did, like I said,

595
00:53:52.480 --> 00:53:58.199
almost four or five years ago.
Now is Jesus God has got a trinity

596
00:53:58.360 --> 00:54:04.599
and this goes through a lot of
the Old Testament texts that don't just show

597
00:54:04.719 --> 00:54:08.000
Triad, but but basically we're working
through the Theophanes and so in all of

598
00:54:08.039 --> 00:54:12.079
these Muslim debates that we've been doing, the good part is that I've gotten

599
00:54:12.079 --> 00:54:15.920
way deeper into this. So I
know a lot more about this topic than

600
00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:19.320
I did in twenty eighteen and twenty
eighteen, twenty nineteen, I knew quite

601
00:54:19.360 --> 00:54:23.119
a bit. Not bragging, just
saying the Islami debates have actually forced me

602
00:54:23.199 --> 00:54:27.800
to go way deeper into this topic. And thus all of those uh,

603
00:54:27.920 --> 00:54:31.400
you know, Rabbinical Jewish texts that
I've been reading by modern and old Jewish

604
00:54:31.400 --> 00:54:37.559
scholars that back this up. I
mean, it's just like so wild when

605
00:54:37.559 --> 00:54:39.239
you actually get into it. That's
why I bring it up with the Muslim

606
00:54:39.280 --> 00:54:46.320
debates so often. If you guys
go watch the the my opening statement of

607
00:54:46.400 --> 00:54:51.639
the Kikachu debate, you know I
cited all those texts, and there's actually

608
00:54:51.719 --> 00:54:53.920
more. I didn't even list all
the texts in there, but those texts

609
00:54:54.079 --> 00:55:00.480
are are amazing. I mean,
there's this this whole other genre of academic

610
00:55:00.599 --> 00:55:06.519
literature over here that's basically modern Jewish
scholarship saying hey, they're not Christian.

611
00:55:06.599 --> 00:55:08.679
They're just saying, yeah, okay, so it looks like, you know,

612
00:55:09.760 --> 00:55:17.239
a lot of the Old Testament tacks
do demonstrate a multiple personae or hypostases

613
00:55:17.440 --> 00:55:23.800
in God that is not a generic
unitarianism. So and then they're actually admitting

614
00:55:24.800 --> 00:55:31.280
that the generic Unitarian argument is not
really there until strictly until mim and idies.

615
00:55:31.599 --> 00:55:37.199
I mean, that's pretty hardcore admissions, right. So and you're like,

616
00:55:37.400 --> 00:55:39.360
I'm sitting here reading these books and
I'm like, okay, so why

617
00:55:39.360 --> 00:55:43.679
wouldn't you be a Christian? And
you're basically admitting all these points, and

618
00:55:43.679 --> 00:55:45.400
you're like, well, I'm still
I'm not a Christian, but you know,

619
00:55:45.519 --> 00:55:50.840
they basically have all these points.
So a lot of interesting admissions coming

620
00:55:50.920 --> 00:55:57.840
going on in scholarship and unbelieving scholarship. That's pretty wild. So but I

621
00:55:57.960 --> 00:56:02.880
think I'm going to have to basically
just do brand new Trinity lectures. I

622
00:56:02.960 --> 00:56:06.360
think that's the way to go about
this. I mean, I'm certainly not

623
00:56:06.440 --> 00:56:09.519
worthy to do that. But by
God's providence, all of these Muslim debates

624
00:56:09.559 --> 00:56:15.039
have actually given I mean when I
made this video four or five years ago,

625
00:56:15.880 --> 00:56:19.800
I mean I probably knew about.
I mean, off the top of

626
00:56:19.920 --> 00:56:25.519
my head, I probably probably could
recall about half of the Theophanes Versus.

627
00:56:25.639 --> 00:56:29.960
Now there's like I was, there's
like half, there's like a whole other

628
00:56:30.280 --> 00:56:35.199
fifty percent more Theophanies I didn't even
think about or know about. I forgot

629
00:56:35.239 --> 00:56:39.880
about multiple Theophanes and Judges, right, not just with Manoah. There's an

630
00:56:39.880 --> 00:56:46.159
amazing Thopheny with Gideon where it says
Yahweh turned his face to Gideon. What

631
00:56:47.719 --> 00:56:51.280
so I mean when you really start
digging into this, And by the way,

632
00:56:51.320 --> 00:56:55.280
the Summer Text Bodies of God in
ancient Israel, that one's amazing.

633
00:56:55.639 --> 00:56:59.119
Now he's not a believer, he's
a liberal, but he's like, okay,

634
00:56:59.239 --> 00:57:05.079
look, let's just be honest.
The Old Testament texts they have Yahwey

635
00:57:05.159 --> 00:57:10.280
Angel the Lord of Spirit. I
didn't even think about throughout the Book of

636
00:57:10.360 --> 00:57:15.800
Genesis. The first two chapters of
his book are actually about all of these

637
00:57:15.880 --> 00:57:22.079
places in Genesis where Abraham builds an
altar, the stone gets anointed. They

638
00:57:22.719 --> 00:57:30.039
rest under the oak of memory.
So trees, rocks, stones, pillars

639
00:57:30.400 --> 00:57:37.039
are being anointed. Dude, that's
all the Alphanic manifestations. It doesn't mean

640
00:57:37.119 --> 00:57:40.719
that they're worshiping the sticks and the
trees, but it is absolutely incarnational.

641
00:57:42.360 --> 00:57:45.480
This is a holy tree, right
because Abraham stayed over here. It's annoyed.

642
00:57:45.519 --> 00:57:50.840
This is a holy rock, is
anointed by freaking Jacob puts his head

643
00:57:50.920 --> 00:57:59.880
on it. That's all incarnational principle. That speaks to unique presences of Yahwey

644
00:58:00.719 --> 00:58:08.119
in inanimate objects holy objects. I
don't even notice trees and rocks holy rocks

645
00:58:09.800 --> 00:58:15.000
in Genesis. Well, I mean
I should have totally picked up like see

646
00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:19.079
you see what I'm saying is like
I totally missed all this stuff away.

647
00:58:20.159 --> 00:58:22.639
So once again, the same energies
argument as the saints and relatives. Yes,

648
00:58:22.719 --> 00:58:29.440
he's admitting through it he's not he's
just a Jewish scholar who doesn't believe

649
00:58:29.519 --> 00:58:36.199
in Christianity. But he's saying the
unique manifestation, Theophani's and presence of Yahweh

650
00:58:36.280 --> 00:58:39.039
are everywhere in the Old Testament,
and they're not creatures. So yeah,

651
00:58:39.119 --> 00:58:43.400
exactly, God is uniquely present in
some way. I don't remember if he

652
00:58:43.519 --> 00:58:50.239
uses the term energies, but it's
that idea. So, speaking of your

653
00:58:50.480 --> 00:58:53.840
you can shoot debate, I had
a question about three styles of argument.

654
00:58:53.880 --> 00:58:59.639
I heard relevant to what you and
Daniel broduct. And you were mentioning of

655
00:58:59.679 --> 00:59:02.840
this scholarship, and I wanted to
ask, are these three different trains of

656
00:59:02.960 --> 00:59:07.000
thought? Which of these are fallacies? And could you articulate as to why

657
00:59:07.039 --> 00:59:10.960
these are good or bad strategies.
The first was appealed to authority that you

658
00:59:12.039 --> 00:59:15.400
mentioned, where Daniel says, well, you know, scholars all agree that

659
00:59:15.440 --> 00:59:19.320
the Quran is perfectly preserved. And
your counter was it's a fallacy to appeal

660
00:59:19.360 --> 00:59:22.480
to authority just because you know a
doctor PhD says it means it's true.

661
00:59:22.519 --> 00:59:30.280
So that's number one. Well too, yeah, hold on, So it

662
00:59:30.360 --> 00:59:32.800
depends on what you're trying to do
with the appeal. So appealing to authorities

663
00:59:32.920 --> 00:59:36.519
is not a problem. But I
mean, let's just think about this in

664
00:59:36.559 --> 00:59:45.199
a really simple context. The sheriff
is an authority on lawfare. The sheriff

665
00:59:45.400 --> 00:59:50.880
says that Bob over here committed the
murder. Sheriff's an expert, therefore Bob

666
00:59:50.960 --> 00:59:53.280
committed the murder. That's not how
it works, right. The sheriff is

667
00:59:53.480 --> 00:59:58.639
an authority, and so his testimony
might be used, and just think of

668
00:59:58.679 --> 01:00:04.440
a courtroom setting, right, But
the sheriff's testimony has nothing to do with

669
01:00:04.639 --> 01:00:07.599
proving. It's not a proof,
it's an evidence, it's an attestation.

670
01:00:08.559 --> 01:00:15.039
Secondly, it is not the case
that universe that scholars universally admit that the

671
01:00:15.280 --> 01:00:21.679
Quran is somehow accurate and preserved.
There might be some secular scholars that admit

672
01:00:21.800 --> 01:00:27.079
that, but to claim that it's
like universal, that's ridiculous. Most scholars

673
01:00:27.159 --> 01:00:32.400
are unbelieving. They don't believe in
some special transmission of any religious text.

674
01:00:32.559 --> 01:00:37.480
That's ridiculous. So where, by
the way, what is the evidence that

675
01:00:37.519 --> 01:00:45.280
he has that most scholars or universally
scholars admit and accept the accuracy and transmission

676
01:00:45.800 --> 01:00:50.360
and historicity of the Quran. He
just said it, and he said you

677
01:00:50.440 --> 01:00:52.400
could read. You know, he
cited a couple of people. Okay,

678
01:00:52.440 --> 01:00:55.679
well I sighted a couple of people, So what right? And I mean

679
01:00:55.800 --> 01:01:01.000
transmission and historicity of the age of
the Quran has nothing to do with whether

680
01:01:01.039 --> 01:01:08.159
it's true. Furthermore, academic consensus
as a proof is also a fallacy.

681
01:01:08.199 --> 01:01:13.840
So it's two fallacies, not just
citations of authority as a proof, but

682
01:01:14.079 --> 01:01:17.400
also appeal to consensus as a fallacy
because it has nothing to do with whether

683
01:01:17.679 --> 01:01:21.719
what's in question its true or false. You could bring that forth and say,

684
01:01:21.840 --> 01:01:25.320
look, let's say I'm having to
debate on I don't know the veracity

685
01:01:25.480 --> 01:01:30.320
of Matthew. Or let's say Plato
something less controversial. Let's say, for

686
01:01:30.400 --> 01:01:37.280
the sake of argument, of the
majority of scholars believe that the Timaeus was

687
01:01:37.400 --> 01:01:40.320
written by or recorded by Plato and
his students, and so it's an accurate

688
01:01:40.440 --> 01:01:45.920
transmission of I'm just speaking theoretically,
Okay. Does that prove it? Of

689
01:01:46.039 --> 01:01:52.840
course not, because we all know
the majority can be wrong and authorities can

690
01:01:52.960 --> 01:01:57.280
be wrong. So it doesn't function
as a logical proof. It's not a

691
01:01:57.400 --> 01:02:02.840
strict proof in a logical sense.
It can be an attestation, right,

692
01:02:04.079 --> 01:02:09.159
it can be evidence, but that's
not the same thing as a proof obviously.

693
01:02:09.320 --> 01:02:14.320
So it's and you'll notice in the
debate that after about the third or

694
01:02:14.360 --> 01:02:16.079
fourth fallacy that was mentioned, he
didn't even looks like he didn't even know

695
01:02:16.159 --> 01:02:21.599
those were fallacies, like he had
never heard this stuff. So there's a

696
01:02:21.639 --> 01:02:28.760
difference between how you use something like
citing authority too. That's what it's not

697
01:02:28.960 --> 01:02:31.920
citing authorities itself, it's how you
try to use it that makes it either

698
01:02:32.000 --> 01:02:37.639
a fallacy or a proper use.
Does that make sense? Yes? And

699
01:02:37.760 --> 01:02:40.880
so then part three the counterpoint would
be when you in your opening statement you

700
01:02:40.920 --> 01:02:45.039
brought up this new Jewish research and
you said, basically, here is a

701
01:02:45.719 --> 01:02:50.800
here's a line of new academic thinking
that brought it right, And I guess

702
01:02:50.880 --> 01:02:52.559
that is valid because you're saying this
is, you know, one school of

703
01:02:52.599 --> 01:02:57.880
thought that is here all that.
Yeah, as I stressed multiple times,

704
01:02:58.599 --> 01:03:02.519
all I was cited in the jewishchols
to show is that first century Judaism is

705
01:03:02.559 --> 01:03:07.480
not a monolithic unitarian enterprise. That's
it. And so here's all the scholars

706
01:03:07.519 --> 01:03:13.480
admitting that. Does that? Al
maybe Daniel can bring forth some mega proof

707
01:03:13.599 --> 01:03:17.199
that shows that no, actually it
was a monolithic enterprise. Okay, maybe

708
01:03:17.239 --> 01:03:22.119
he can. So it's just citing
this. It's how you use it,

709
01:03:22.599 --> 01:03:25.480
right. I wasn't if I did
I say, here's all these Jewish authorities

710
01:03:27.039 --> 01:03:31.840
today admitting that there is a kind
of trinity in the Old Testament. Therefore

711
01:03:31.880 --> 01:03:36.280
the trinity is true. That didn't
say that. That would be a dumb

712
01:03:36.360 --> 01:03:39.840
argument. Why would I go to
them as if that would prove the trinity?

713
01:03:42.880 --> 01:03:45.800
So we can testify to it,
contribute, but it cannot permanently.

714
01:03:45.039 --> 01:03:50.360
Yeah. What happens in a courtroom
when they bring in an expert witness,

715
01:03:50.920 --> 01:03:54.000
does the whole court a judge just
say, well, you're the expert witness.

716
01:03:54.639 --> 01:04:00.840
Case closed. You decided that he's
the guilty murderer. It doesn't work

717
01:04:00.960 --> 01:04:05.679
that way. That's an access that
he makes the case. Then the jury

718
01:04:05.760 --> 01:04:10.840
to thoughts you say right, yeah, and then the counter too, or

719
01:04:10.920 --> 01:04:14.360
the opposite of the appeal to consensus, I think was when Daniel mentioned,

720
01:04:15.519 --> 01:04:17.599
well the Bible, no one agrees
who wrote the New Testament or whatever.

721
01:04:17.679 --> 01:04:20.480
There's there's a disagreement, and I
think you response to him was new.

722
01:04:20.519 --> 01:04:27.880
It's also a fallacy to cite a
disagreement as a as a argument is does

723
01:04:27.960 --> 01:04:33.519
that follow? Is that? Did
I understand that I don't. I mean,

724
01:04:33.599 --> 01:04:41.360
I'm not saying that's false. I'm
just trying to remember waits a disagreement

725
01:04:41.400 --> 01:04:45.519
about what reminders that we're saying,
So, okay, fifty percent of scholars

726
01:04:45.559 --> 01:04:47.440
say the New Testament, you know, Mark didn't right? Mark in fifty

727
01:04:47.480 --> 01:04:51.039
percent say yes, Mark route Mark? Or for example, is that also

728
01:04:53.760 --> 01:04:58.320
well, I mean it's it's a
non consensus. It would be just a

729
01:04:58.440 --> 01:05:03.519
fallacy of irrelevance. I mean,
what if we found uh, you know,

730
01:05:04.679 --> 01:05:09.000
what if we pulled all the people
in my neighborhood and many of them

731
01:05:10.280 --> 01:05:15.519
believe that one plus one doesn't equal
too oh yeah? So oh well,

732
01:05:16.280 --> 01:05:20.480
I mean your So I guess at
fifty five percent of my neighborhood believes that

733
01:05:20.519 --> 01:05:25.920
one plus one equals ten in my
neighborhood, then that's the case. It

734
01:05:26.000 --> 01:05:27.960
now does equal ten. He see
how silly it would be, right,

735
01:05:28.000 --> 01:05:30.239
would be like, yeah, that
makes sense? Right? So yeah,

736
01:05:30.360 --> 01:05:35.440
so disagreements amongst people has absolutely nothing
to do with what's your revolts? Okay,

737
01:05:35.840 --> 01:05:40.519
fantastic. I have one last question
at urge Protestantism, if that's okay,

738
01:05:40.800 --> 01:05:44.440
okay, So, I think a
lot of you know, Bible based

739
01:05:44.840 --> 01:05:48.920
Loud Church Protestantism, we've build their
Sunday morning worship services around First Corinthians fourteen,

740
01:05:49.519 --> 01:05:53.119
where Paul basically says, hey,
when you guys get together, when

741
01:05:53.159 --> 01:05:55.039
if you has a psalm, when
of you has a prayer, one of

742
01:05:55.079 --> 01:05:58.880
you has words of encouragement? Type
of thing? What types? So I

743
01:05:58.920 --> 01:06:01.559
guess the question is what type of
gathering do you and Orthodox interpret key to

744
01:06:01.639 --> 01:06:04.400
be mentioning? Is this divine liturgy. Is this a separate you know,

745
01:06:04.440 --> 01:06:10.079
the daily prayers and vespers right,
So I think that there's a couple of

746
01:06:10.079 --> 01:06:14.840
things going on here. A number
one, just because Paul is talking about

747
01:06:15.639 --> 01:06:19.639
this sort of what would probably be
a more open situation for people who are

748
01:06:19.719 --> 01:06:25.000
moved by the spirit to do this
or that. That doesn't prove Protestantism or

749
01:06:25.039 --> 01:06:30.519
like charismaticism because this is at a
point in the Church when there is still

750
01:06:30.760 --> 01:06:36.360
ongoing public revelation, so that doesn't
continue once John the Apostle dies, there's

751
01:06:36.400 --> 01:06:43.039
no more public divine revelation. There
could be public divine revelation in this intertestamental

752
01:06:43.119 --> 01:06:46.199
period. So this is a unique
time period when the Church is transitioning out

753
01:06:46.239 --> 01:06:51.880
of being primarily centered in Jerusalem and
primarily Jewish to now being more and more

754
01:06:51.960 --> 01:06:57.679
so primarily Gentile. Thus throughout the
Book of Acts, this is that crucial

755
01:06:57.800 --> 01:07:01.880
period. So Church of Corinth still
has this is still in this phase where

756
01:07:01.960 --> 01:07:08.599
there is what we would call maybe
charismatic sort of Pentecost types of stuff going

757
01:07:08.639 --> 01:07:12.800
on. Now the Orthodox Church we
don't totally deny miracles, like I don't

758
01:07:12.840 --> 01:07:15.920
know, like maybe some cessation as
Baptists or something like that. But we

759
01:07:16.000 --> 01:07:20.519
don't. We wouldn't conclude that there's
still public divine revelation, right that.

760
01:07:21.159 --> 01:07:25.920
I think there's just not. I
mean, once you know, the faith

761
01:07:26.079 --> 01:07:29.880
was once for all delivered to the
saints, and so there's no new public

762
01:07:29.960 --> 01:07:36.039
revelation, right. But the other
point I would say is that just because

763
01:07:36.159 --> 01:07:41.559
Paul is stating to the church at
corinth that there needs to be ordered for

764
01:07:42.440 --> 01:07:45.639
the sort of spontaneous movements of the
Holy Spirit. I mean, if you

765
01:07:45.760 --> 01:07:50.719
look at the Feast of Pentecost in
Acts too, even that is not chaotic,

766
01:07:50.840 --> 01:07:55.519
it's not gibberish because in the very
Book of Corinthians, pul says God's

767
01:07:55.559 --> 01:07:58.920
not the author of confusion. And
in our church, in our tradition,

768
01:07:59.079 --> 01:08:02.960
we would believe that at there's still
a liturgical worship going on. Right.

769
01:08:03.000 --> 01:08:06.960
It's not like there's no liturgy.
It's just everybody just you know, chaos

770
01:08:08.119 --> 01:08:13.519
and do what you want. Paul
is trying to give order to a situation

771
01:08:13.639 --> 01:08:19.039
where there is still instantaneous motivation and
movement of the spirit. Right. Like

772
01:08:19.119 --> 01:08:23.520
if you if you read the Book
of Acts, remember when like Agabus is

773
01:08:23.560 --> 01:08:27.600
suddenly inspired by the Holy Spirit,
right, And so he says, he

774
01:08:27.760 --> 01:08:30.640
takes a belt and says, you
will be bound like this belt, and

775
01:08:30.720 --> 01:08:34.119
he was moved by the Holy Spirit
to do that. Right, Paul doesn't

776
01:08:34.239 --> 01:08:42.600
want the instantaneous movement of Holy Spirit
in this intertestamental period to disrupt the liturgical

777
01:08:42.760 --> 01:08:45.680
service of the church, which if
you read that whole section in Corinthians right

778
01:08:45.800 --> 01:08:50.800
from eleven up, clearly that is
what's happening, because people are getting drunk

779
01:08:50.960 --> 01:08:55.720
at the liturgy at the Lord's Supper, right, So, so it's a

780
01:08:55.800 --> 01:09:00.479
liturgical celebration, and even he talks
about the altar, but it doesn't tell

781
01:09:00.560 --> 01:09:04.600
us the liturgical service, which is
why we believe in tradition to know what

782
01:09:04.720 --> 01:09:11.000
the liturgy is. But so I
think all of that's going on fantastic.

783
01:09:11.199 --> 01:09:16.960
And then real quick critic might observe
the iconesis as a maybe a okay,

784
01:09:17.159 --> 01:09:20.079
why do you have an iconistasis that
people can't go behind? If the curtain

785
01:09:20.159 --> 01:09:24.640
was torn into in Matthew twenty seven, because if you look in the earliest

786
01:09:25.119 --> 01:09:29.640
the architecture of the earliest churches in
the first and second century, they had

787
01:09:29.760 --> 01:09:33.079
the equivalent of that, which are
called communion rails, and they're they're clearly

788
01:09:33.159 --> 01:09:38.800
there in the earliest churches, then
what is the Orthodox centergy. What that

789
01:09:38.960 --> 01:09:43.079
means is that I mean the iconostasis
is the same thing as the communion rail

790
01:09:43.119 --> 01:09:46.600
in the West, and what that
means is that communion is closed. And

791
01:09:46.760 --> 01:09:51.119
so it's true that the veil is
rent, but that's a specific time in

792
01:09:51.239 --> 01:09:56.720
the service when the doors, the
royal doors are opened. That happens in

793
01:09:56.800 --> 01:09:59.920
the service, it's opened. So
the veil being rent, of course,

794
01:10:00.000 --> 01:10:02.880
sponds to the point in the liturgy
when the doors are open, then you

795
01:10:02.960 --> 01:10:08.439
get communion. Ah nice, Okay, I hadn't find that. That's cool.

796
01:10:08.720 --> 01:10:11.039
Yeah, it doesn't mean that,
oh, the veils rent. Now,

797
01:10:11.199 --> 01:10:15.279
so basically you can just go do
trick or treat, go door to

798
01:10:15.359 --> 01:10:20.479
door, trick or treat communion dog
because the veils rent. Yeah, no,

799
01:10:20.560 --> 01:10:24.359
that's fair, because you had mentioned
that in your tubes. You said,

800
01:10:24.520 --> 01:10:27.399
you know, these house churches were
estates that were converted to build it

801
01:10:27.399 --> 01:10:30.119
theasilicas. Yes, everybody can look
that up. Yeah, that's I would

802
01:10:30.159 --> 01:10:36.319
highly recommend early. And of course
we always sort of have to bring this

803
01:10:36.479 --> 01:10:40.680
up because there's just this weird assumption. And I used to have this assumption

804
01:10:40.720 --> 01:10:43.760
when I was a Protestant. Right
when when you see house church, you

805
01:10:43.880 --> 01:10:46.119
think of that as like, oh, that's the Bible study I went to

806
01:10:46.359 --> 01:10:50.520
after high school when I was playing
basketball. Right, house church, Well,

807
01:10:50.840 --> 01:10:55.399
that doesn't mean that it's like a
low church. You know, strip

808
01:10:55.520 --> 01:10:58.840
mall. Paul's got a strip mall. No, it means early church,

809
01:10:59.000 --> 01:11:04.520
like villa converted into a basilica.
That's what that means. And early church

810
01:11:09.279 --> 01:11:17.880
architecture shows this, and that's why
it's liturgical worship that you can see in

811
01:11:18.000 --> 01:11:27.680
the earliest days of the church.
Here it is. Now this is the

812
01:11:27.800 --> 01:11:33.359
Catholic guy, but it's the same
principle here. So because this article went

813
01:11:33.439 --> 01:11:39.000
around on both Catholic and Orthodox websites, it's also over an Ortho Christian too,

814
01:11:39.119 --> 01:11:43.399
but there you can see it on
this Catholic website making the argument that

815
01:11:44.439 --> 01:11:47.600
the ancient Mass or the liturgy in
the house churches was not as informal as

816
01:11:47.640 --> 01:11:51.720
many think. And you'll notice there
that the This is the church at duray

817
01:11:51.760 --> 01:11:58.000
Europos, which is fascinating because dury
Ropos also has the synagogue with the icons

818
01:11:58.039 --> 01:12:03.279
in it earlier than this second century. This is third century church two hundreds

819
01:12:03.840 --> 01:12:10.720
where they have a baptistery courtyard and
then the service area. And if you

820
01:12:10.800 --> 01:12:15.600
get the Hugh Weybrew book, he's
actually got pictures where they show like the

821
01:12:15.680 --> 01:12:20.159
the rails and the euchuris where they
would have had the euchus and whatnot the

822
01:12:20.239 --> 01:12:26.680
altar. So anyway, good questions. Yeah, great questions, sir,

823
01:12:26.720 --> 01:12:35.800
appreciate Yes, sir, bed and
bed safe. Keep what's up dude?

824
01:12:42.319 --> 01:12:46.439
Hey Jay, thanks for having me
on. I have three questions to being

825
01:12:46.560 --> 01:12:53.079
clarifying questions and one being like an
application question. Okay, my first question

826
01:12:53.319 --> 01:12:59.920
is can you discern the definitions between
world views, paradigms, and ideology.

827
01:13:03.880 --> 01:13:08.520
I think most of the time when
people are using the terms worldview and paradigm,

828
01:13:08.560 --> 01:13:12.119
they're referring to the same thing,
at least when we're using that terminology

829
01:13:12.279 --> 01:13:15.479
in the in the domain of philosophy, typically we're just talking about the basic

830
01:13:15.640 --> 01:13:21.319
beliefs and assumptions that people have in
terms of epistemology, ethics, and metaphysics.

831
01:13:23.520 --> 01:13:26.880
But an ideology could be more specific, you know, that could be

832
01:13:27.720 --> 01:13:30.720
somebody somebody might have a singular ideology
of being a radical Marxist, or a

833
01:13:31.479 --> 01:13:36.079
single ideology of being a radical feminist. And I only ask that because I

834
01:13:36.199 --> 01:13:42.399
hear you says things whenever you're debating
about, you know, the orthodox paradigm

835
01:13:42.479 --> 01:13:46.720
being the superior, you know,
theistic paradigm. Well, that's because I

836
01:13:46.840 --> 01:13:53.720
think that ultimately at that level.
The reason that we do tag over here

837
01:13:54.000 --> 01:13:59.680
is because the arguments are not ultimately
about evidences or the interpretation of evidences.

838
01:14:00.119 --> 01:14:03.479
They're about the entire paradigms. So
that's why we do that. Okay,

839
01:14:04.039 --> 01:14:09.880
doesn't mean that you can't do evident
evidental argumentation. Sometimes you have to present

840
01:14:09.960 --> 01:14:13.680
evidences. For example, if somebody
says to me, well, what are

841
01:14:13.720 --> 01:14:17.000
the evidences that you think Jesus is
the Messiah? Well, I mean I

842
01:14:17.079 --> 01:14:20.640
may not go immediately to tag to
do that. I'm going to say,

843
01:14:20.720 --> 01:14:25.399
well, there's a you know,
ton of Messianic prophecies that point to the

844
01:14:25.479 --> 01:14:29.239
Bible being inspired and fulfilled in him. So so those are evidences, you

845
01:14:29.319 --> 01:14:36.159
say. So the second question is
regarding to like the method of developing those

846
01:14:36.199 --> 01:14:43.039
worldviews or ideologies or paradigms. You
know, basically, I know that I've

847
01:14:43.079 --> 01:14:47.279
heard you say something to the effect
of that. You know, Orthodoxy is

848
01:14:47.560 --> 01:14:56.439
not a dialectical method of progression.
But and this maybe goes and ties into

849
01:14:56.520 --> 01:15:00.880
my third question, which we know
about the you know, mill their fobbing,

850
01:15:00.520 --> 01:15:05.159
uh, you know, open society
type worldview. How is there's you

851
01:15:05.199 --> 01:15:12.479
know, progressing in terms of development
versus orthodoxy And basically, you know,

852
01:15:12.760 --> 01:15:16.840
the fundamental question is how do you
develop your worldview in such a way that

853
01:15:17.279 --> 01:15:23.479
you know you're always going to out
compete other worldviews that are competing. Yeah,

854
01:15:23.520 --> 01:15:26.600
So I would think that there's a
bit of an equivocation there on the

855
01:15:26.720 --> 01:15:31.640
word developing. So I mean an
individual might want to study a topic like

856
01:15:31.800 --> 01:15:38.000
philosophy and learn about world views and
kind of figure out what they believe.

857
01:15:38.319 --> 01:15:44.960
That's different from the notion of developing
theology in a sense of evolving theology or

858
01:15:45.079 --> 01:15:50.079
progressive philosophy or progressive movements or open
society institute, all that different uses of

859
01:15:50.159 --> 01:15:56.279
the word. So you know,
if I'm I mean I can develop my

860
01:15:56.439 --> 01:16:00.279
worldview in a sense of like figuring
it out, that's not the same thing

861
01:16:00.399 --> 01:16:04.680
as like something evolving over time,
like oh, the papacy wasn't really there

862
01:16:04.880 --> 01:16:09.560
in the first thousand years, like
Vatican One says it developed into that.

863
01:16:10.359 --> 01:16:14.880
Okay, that's different than me it's
just using the word developed in a different

864
01:16:14.920 --> 01:16:18.960
sense. That's that's different than me
figuring out my worldview. But you think,

865
01:16:19.359 --> 01:16:26.079
like theologically Orthodoxy, is it progressing
still in terms of it's not being

866
01:16:26.199 --> 01:16:30.680
static and it's uh like it's it's
it's pre suppositions are static, but the

867
01:16:31.119 --> 01:16:35.239
elaboration of those are developing. And
and then I'm asking, you know,

868
01:16:35.319 --> 01:16:41.439
the Milliner Fobbian thing, like their
pre suppositions are static, they're developing.

869
01:16:42.399 --> 01:16:45.960
I really no, I don't think
the Orthodox faith develops. I mean I

870
01:16:45.039 --> 01:16:50.960
mean, yeah, ecumenical councils really
just clarify and explicate what's already there.

871
01:16:51.960 --> 01:16:56.479
So if by developed, that's what
you mean. Yeah, But if by

872
01:16:56.560 --> 01:17:01.359
develop you mean, like do you
mean by develop I mean like you know

873
01:17:01.439 --> 01:17:06.279
in the Milner Fabian you know,
the one World or sorry, one True

874
01:17:06.319 --> 01:17:11.920
religion, like where they you know, grab all the religious idea of you

875
01:17:12.000 --> 01:17:16.479
know, religions of the world and
make one religion. Uh. And I

876
01:17:16.600 --> 01:17:23.119
may have the term wrong. Is
that uh an ecumunical or is that I

877
01:17:23.159 --> 01:17:30.000
always confuse the two terms. Yeah, I mean they want to steer and

878
01:17:30.119 --> 01:17:36.239
develop the religions into a control geopolitical
tool of a one world religion, absolutely

879
01:17:38.880 --> 01:17:44.199
right. And so you know,
my basis is like if they are doing

880
01:17:44.279 --> 01:17:48.439
it in a dialectical manner, which
I thought that's essentially what they're doing,

881
01:17:48.800 --> 01:17:54.199
is that they they're using a form
of dialectics, controlled dialectics, such that

882
01:17:54.920 --> 01:18:00.359
if yes, that is true,
yeah, such that if Orthodoxies comeing and

883
01:18:00.600 --> 01:18:04.319
you know, they have their uh, you know, worldview and place they

884
01:18:04.399 --> 01:18:09.920
have you know, their uh,
you know, structure of bureaucracy. And

885
01:18:10.119 --> 01:18:13.920
I know I'm not using the right
term there, but also you know,

886
01:18:14.000 --> 01:18:18.000
there's a structure of bureaucracy for Mildner
Fabian and obviously it's like a power dynamic

887
01:18:18.119 --> 01:18:21.720
thing. But in terms of truth, like arriving at truth and arriving at

888
01:18:21.840 --> 01:18:28.760
you know, an audience discerning between
Orthodoxy and this one world religion, how

889
01:18:28.800 --> 01:18:33.000
would they know to choose one paradigm
over another, Not not because of like

890
01:18:33.199 --> 01:18:36.039
being called to God or anything,
but just on you know, the basis

891
01:18:36.119 --> 01:18:43.840
of the facts or the basis of
the paradigm. I think that the position

892
01:18:44.039 --> 01:18:48.199
of the elite is one of pure
pragmatism, and so they will hire countless

893
01:18:48.239 --> 01:18:55.680
academics from universities to study religions and
then present reports, present, you know,

894
01:18:55.800 --> 01:19:01.039
papers on you know, how to
best steer religious communities in the direction

895
01:19:01.159 --> 01:19:06.600
that they want. So I don't
think that it requires them to necessarily master

896
01:19:06.720 --> 01:19:10.960
the religion in a true sense or
believe it, because I don't think for

897
01:19:11.039 --> 01:19:14.439
example, most you look at most
of the academics that are pushing liberalism and

898
01:19:14.560 --> 01:19:17.439
Orthodoxy for example, I mean,
they obviously don't really believe it or live

899
01:19:17.520 --> 01:19:24.399
it. They're just hired hands that
are there. For example, everything that

900
01:19:24.439 --> 01:19:27.680
we were talking about for many,
many years is now coming out in this

901
01:19:28.079 --> 01:19:34.199
recent IOTA conference, which is the
twenty twenty five or Union conference to promote

902
01:19:35.079 --> 01:19:40.199
Nicia too. Remember when I talked
about this, and I was a conspiracy

903
01:19:40.279 --> 01:19:45.520
theorist. Here it is the International
Confidence in Rome in twenty twenty five promoting

904
01:19:45.560 --> 01:19:49.279
the new Nicia how to unite with
the Roman Catholic Church. And it's all

905
01:19:49.399 --> 01:20:00.359
the usual for Tomite goobers and academics, including the arch Druid Rowan will Illiams,

906
01:20:00.640 --> 01:20:04.199
as well as all these other clowns. And so there it is right

907
01:20:04.279 --> 01:20:11.720
there, exactly what I said.
So are you asking how do they know

908
01:20:11.960 --> 01:20:15.560
where to steer it or how how
do they I mean their their agenda.

909
01:20:15.600 --> 01:20:20.760
Their agenda is very clear, women
priests skittles everywhere and then move all of

910
01:20:20.840 --> 01:20:29.039
that into Francis's skittles domain. Yeah. Like I watched uh, you know,

911
01:20:29.239 --> 01:20:32.520
David Patrick Henry and he was talking
about how they kind of like co

912
01:20:32.720 --> 01:20:43.159
opt Orthodoxy terms for their like uh, technologic you know, religious beliefs where

913
01:20:43.199 --> 01:20:46.680
they're like, oh, we can
talk about theosis or apo theosis at et

914
01:20:46.760 --> 01:20:50.119
cetera, et cetera in these terms. That's basically like a technical version,

915
01:20:50.159 --> 01:20:55.319
a more pragmatic version of what you're
saying. And what I'm saying is how

916
01:20:55.359 --> 01:21:00.479
would someone uh essentially look at that
and be like, oh, with the

917
01:21:00.560 --> 01:21:05.079
doxy was just this old way of
thinking. And so since we have twenty

918
01:21:05.119 --> 01:21:11.479
first century technology, that means the
Milner Fabians they don't know it's Milner Fabbians,

919
01:21:11.520 --> 01:21:14.640
but the people who are co opting
with the doxy terms. This is

920
01:21:14.680 --> 01:21:17.119
how the Bible is actually supposed to
be progressing. And I think I think

921
01:21:17.199 --> 01:21:21.960
the Pope say something about it.
It seemed like he even believes that,

922
01:21:23.239 --> 01:21:29.960
uh, not dogmatics, but like
the theological positions are meant to be progressed

923
01:21:30.000 --> 01:21:33.079
over time because humanity. No,
I think I think he believes that.

924
01:21:33.239 --> 01:21:36.479
I think he believes that the morals
and the dogma progress over time. So

925
01:21:38.399 --> 01:21:41.439
right, obvious, insane, right, I mean, yeah, yeah,

926
01:21:42.119 --> 01:21:45.359
anyway, so good questions. Yeah, we're gonna move on. Let's see

927
01:21:45.640 --> 01:21:49.199
moving on to blood and rain.
What's up dude? By the way,

928
01:21:49.279 --> 01:21:54.800
guys, what supported the stream via
the super chat function. Super chats are

929
01:21:54.880 --> 01:21:58.760
through stream laps. Now, if
you like what I do, if it

930
01:21:58.840 --> 01:22:00.960
helps you, you can support me
via stream labs. You can ask your

931
01:22:01.079 --> 01:22:04.079
questions there in the stream lamps link. It's a little bit of an extra

932
01:22:04.159 --> 01:22:09.600
step, but it's not too difficult. You can put in whatever amount you

933
01:22:09.720 --> 01:22:11.760
want. We had a few super
chats. I'll go through here in a

934
01:22:11.800 --> 01:22:16.439
little bit, and thank you to
you guys who a couple of people I

935
01:22:16.520 --> 01:22:20.399
think super chatted while I was gone. You can always super chat and I'll

936
01:22:20.439 --> 01:22:24.920
just read it on the next show
if it gets missed. But there you

937
01:22:25.000 --> 01:22:30.640
guys see that the Church of the
third millennium towards Calvic Orthodox unity put on

938
01:22:30.800 --> 01:22:35.479
by all the Fortamites, put on
and basically sponsored by the State Department people

939
01:22:35.520 --> 01:22:41.079
from the CIA. Mike Pompeio has
supported and tweeted out a lot of these

940
01:22:41.159 --> 01:22:44.479
people. So a lot of this
has to do with geopolitical motivations, very

941
01:22:44.560 --> 01:22:47.600
public. It's not a conspiracy theory. It's well known. And they want

942
01:22:47.720 --> 01:22:55.399
this new union with Francis, which
is part of what the Alexandria document is

943
01:22:55.439 --> 01:22:59.000
about. If you watch Tim Gordon's
stream the other day, you'll notice that

944
01:22:59.600 --> 01:23:01.239
he didn't one stream where he was
like, what is all this? What's

945
01:23:01.399 --> 01:23:05.600
what's the Roman Catholics sin on sinodality
about? And I was like, I

946
01:23:05.680 --> 01:23:11.000
can tell you what it's about,
Tim, It's about this sinodality and primacy

947
01:23:11.560 --> 01:23:15.159
admitted to be not done in the
Roman Caloitic way in the first thousand years

948
01:23:15.479 --> 01:23:23.920
according to Francis. So there you
go. What why are they pushing sinodality?

949
01:23:24.159 --> 01:23:27.239
Oh, I can tell you why
because they want to have, as

950
01:23:27.319 --> 01:23:31.119
we've been saying, a union with
Roman. And why are they mad at

951
01:23:31.159 --> 01:23:35.119
me and other people in the Orthodox
Church that are not into a Cumanism in

952
01:23:35.199 --> 01:23:39.520
this because we are the ones that
stand in the way of this being pushed.

953
01:23:39.960 --> 01:23:42.279
It's not that, it's not rocket
science, not hard to figure out.

954
01:23:43.279 --> 01:23:45.439
What was there? Boy? Hate
you because I'm calling this out.

955
01:23:45.520 --> 01:23:47.279
No one else is talking about it
now. A lot of priests and people

956
01:23:47.319 --> 01:23:53.319
talk about it, and that's great. But I was doing I was talking

957
01:23:53.319 --> 01:23:56.159
about this actually in two thousand and
seven or eight, and then I was

958
01:23:56.239 --> 01:24:05.319
doing podcasts in twenty fourteen fifteen on
this. They're still up so vindicated.

959
01:24:06.760 --> 01:24:11.279
Oh but you're a conspiracy there's an
evil person. All you're so bad all

960
01:24:11.399 --> 01:24:14.199
I don't know, I don't know. Sure, okay, yeah, by

961
01:24:14.199 --> 01:24:16.479
the way, where you guys at
tonight, everybody's being a stingy tonight stingy.

962
01:24:16.960 --> 01:24:19.880
You don't want me to just work
for free? The labor is worthy

963
01:24:19.960 --> 01:24:24.600
his wages. What's up? Can't
work for free? Support the work right

964
01:24:24.600 --> 01:24:28.520
there in the super chat function.
Also, if you want to support the

965
01:24:28.560 --> 01:24:32.399
work in another way, get books
and stuff. Get the six hundred and

966
01:24:32.399 --> 01:24:39.159
sixty page Red Book has all my
theology and geo politics essays and philosophy essays

967
01:24:39.159 --> 01:24:45.279
in one book at the website.
Sign copies if you go to the shop

968
01:24:45.359 --> 01:24:49.359
at the website. So in this
book, by the way, if you

969
01:24:49.399 --> 01:24:55.640
don't know, in the Red Book, there's about let's see how many pages

970
01:24:55.720 --> 01:25:03.319
are. The first one hundred pages
are so is essence introduced sinction, apologetics

971
01:25:03.359 --> 01:25:11.359
type stuff, typology, the next
several hundred pages are critiques of Roman Catholic

972
01:25:11.439 --> 01:25:16.000
stuff. Then the next couple hundred
pages are critiques of Protestantism and Calvinism.

973
01:25:17.279 --> 01:25:23.319
Then it gets into philosophical stuff,
geopolitical stuff, a bunch of old essays

974
01:25:23.479 --> 01:25:28.640
on psy ops and control, dialectics
and all that kind of stuff. So

975
01:25:28.640 --> 01:25:31.279
if you want the Red Book,
get signed copies at the website in the

976
01:25:31.359 --> 01:25:33.680
shop, as well as all the
other books that are there, Jamie's Books,

977
01:25:34.079 --> 01:25:40.479
Hollywood Books and all that. Who's
next? Are you there? Oh?

978
01:25:42.239 --> 01:25:46.279
Thanks for doing this. I just
had a quick question about I'm sure

979
01:25:46.279 --> 01:25:48.960
you're, as a questioned before,
at some point in the past, titters

980
01:25:48.960 --> 01:25:55.359
space for you to book. I
point myself a lot of conversations just online

981
01:25:55.439 --> 01:26:00.680
and training groups that I'm in with
the Protestants through That's what I mean.

982
01:26:00.720 --> 01:26:03.760
In terms of early Church father teaching. Then, I know there's a line

983
01:26:03.800 --> 01:26:09.840
of Apostolic succession from the early church
Fathers to now with a wide range of

984
01:26:09.960 --> 01:26:15.560
literature or context of the Bible,
have you ever outlined a reading list for

985
01:26:15.680 --> 01:26:20.000
people sort to read the Church Fathers
from the time of the Book of Act

986
01:26:20.279 --> 01:26:26.279
until now, sort of call the
your gospel applies to the papal the Beach

987
01:26:26.640 --> 01:26:30.079
Cuba heresy, because there is there
a place to start, like some people

988
01:26:30.079 --> 01:26:33.760
have plub me to start with the
Desert Fathers earlier saying that Fanascia, I

989
01:26:33.800 --> 01:26:38.520
think, but I was curious how
you would not that. I mean,

990
01:26:38.600 --> 01:26:42.720
it depends on what route you want
to go in terms of what you're wanting

991
01:26:42.800 --> 01:26:45.199
to study. I mean, if
you're wanting to study are the earliest church

992
01:26:45.239 --> 01:26:50.359
Fathers Protestant, then I would can
you mute when you're not talking? Then

993
01:26:50.399 --> 01:26:57.399
I would start with, you know, Ignatious Clement of Rome, uh,

994
01:26:58.359 --> 01:27:01.199
justin Martyr. I would I would
read the those early guys and then see

995
01:27:01.359 --> 01:27:05.680
what you see in them. But
if you're wanting to get into Patristic theology,

996
01:27:06.479 --> 01:27:11.359
then I would start with on the
Incarnation of Athanasius, and then I

997
01:27:11.439 --> 01:27:16.159
would read the Orations of Saint Gregor
now sian Zeus, and then I would

998
01:27:16.159 --> 01:27:20.079
read on the Holy Spirit by Basil. So no, I don't typically like

999
01:27:20.239 --> 01:27:25.680
lay out some sort of historic track
or course that a person should read.

1000
01:27:26.479 --> 01:27:29.359
If you don't want to dive directly
into the Batristics, I would say,

1001
01:27:29.399 --> 01:27:36.680
read volume one of Yaroslaw Pelican's Christianity. Christian Tradition Volume one is a great

1002
01:27:36.720 --> 01:27:46.760
introduction to the historical history of ideas
of the Church Fathers, right, yes,

1003
01:27:46.840 --> 01:27:51.239
sir, So for those in the
audience that are curious, that's this

1004
01:27:51.319 --> 01:27:57.920
book here which I have actually lectured
through this book. It's an old lecture

1005
01:27:57.960 --> 01:28:02.600
on the channel. I remember what
I called it, but I did lecture

1006
01:28:02.680 --> 01:28:06.000
through this book. So it's part
one and a part two if you want

1007
01:28:06.039 --> 01:28:10.680
to subscribe. Let me think of
us if I can remember what way,

1008
01:28:10.720 --> 01:28:15.399
there's a bunch of Trinity lectures already
up. So what did I call that

1009
01:28:15.520 --> 01:28:33.640
boyd or that talk early Church heresies? I think I think it's this one

1010
01:28:34.479 --> 01:28:42.720
right here, Gnostics, charismatics and
early Church heresies and fathers. I think

1011
01:28:42.880 --> 01:28:49.199
that's yeah. That's my free half
of the first book of Pelicons Emergence of

1012
01:28:49.239 --> 01:28:54.640
the Calic Tradition. So if you
want to watch that first half, here

1013
01:28:54.680 --> 01:28:58.159
you go. There's that. You
can subscribe to get the full half at

1014
01:28:58.239 --> 01:29:02.720
my website. Also, yeah,
that guy brought up the five year ago

1015
01:29:02.800 --> 01:29:10.880
Trinitarian response talk in that videos right
there, and I appreciate that. I'm

1016
01:29:10.880 --> 01:29:15.880
glad people really like that when a
lot of people have become believers in the

1017
01:29:15.960 --> 01:29:19.079
Trinity from this talk. So it's
had a lot of a fact I hear

1018
01:29:19.079 --> 01:29:21.239
a lot of people have over the
years have said, hey, thank you

1019
01:29:21.319 --> 01:29:28.479
so much for that Trinity talk that
you did. Yeah, man, good,

1020
01:29:28.640 --> 01:29:30.880
good to hear. Let's move on. Is that all you had?

1021
01:29:30.960 --> 01:29:58.239
You have something else? Sibyl a
Hinger, Sibyl a Hinger, thank you

1022
01:29:58.319 --> 01:30:00.920
guys. If you would in the
chat, also like and share support us

1023
01:30:00.960 --> 01:30:04.560
Vice super Chats if you'd like to
right broke tonight. That's okay. I

1024
01:30:04.640 --> 01:30:09.319
still love you guys, even if
you're broke. Sybil, looks like it's

1025
01:30:09.399 --> 01:30:12.680
having a hard time for you to
connect. So Patrick, what's up?

1026
01:30:12.720 --> 01:30:24.880
Patrick? You want to pop on? Project Pat? What's up? Juicy

1027
01:30:25.000 --> 01:30:30.520
Jake? Project Pat? What's up? Hey? Hey? Here me Yes,

1028
01:30:30.560 --> 01:30:35.159
sir, Hey, Yeah, I
just was gonna ask about your point

1029
01:30:35.199 --> 01:30:43.000
about Folk pro Hope Francis. There
is a faction that I've kind of been

1030
01:30:43.079 --> 01:30:46.960
a part of for so ever since
he, you know, came into power

1031
01:30:47.000 --> 01:30:54.039
and whatever that believes that he's the
end Times false prophet, that his job

1032
01:30:54.199 --> 01:30:59.479
is to bring in the one World
government or the one World religion and congruns

1033
01:30:59.520 --> 01:31:03.079
with the war World Government so old. I got a question. When you

1034
01:31:03.159 --> 01:31:08.079
say a faction, you mean of
traditional Catholicism or a Protestant What do you

1035
01:31:08.119 --> 01:31:13.199
mean a faction? Yeah, Catholics, I believe that, uh, in

1036
01:31:13.319 --> 01:31:17.159
particular. I don't know if you've
ever seen William Tapley article books on YouTube.

1037
01:31:18.119 --> 01:31:21.680
He's been on there for about fifteen
years, and I don't know some

1038
01:31:23.279 --> 01:31:27.079
I came across them years ago and
read some of his books. Hold on,

1039
01:31:27.159 --> 01:31:30.199
are you talking about the boomer that
sings on his keyboard? Yes?

1040
01:31:30.560 --> 01:31:34.880
Yes, actually yeah he did.
That was some of the early ones.

1041
01:31:35.239 --> 01:31:42.159
That's right. Hold on, so
well, I mean, I'm gonna try

1042
01:31:42.159 --> 01:31:44.920
to be nice. I don't want
to make him mad. But I mean

1043
01:31:45.000 --> 01:31:48.920
I made fun of this guy for
years, but right, so did but

1044
01:31:49.239 --> 01:31:55.159
Anderson Cooper, Well, yeah,
I made, but for different reasons than

1045
01:31:55.199 --> 01:31:59.800
Anderson Cooper would. But so,
I mean I remember his stuff, and

1046
01:32:00.439 --> 01:32:03.600
you know, a lot of what
he talks about is pretty obviously influenced by

1047
01:32:04.800 --> 01:32:10.680
evangelical pre millennial stuff. And the
problem is that whether you're Roman Catholic or

1048
01:32:10.720 --> 01:32:16.720
whether you're Orthodox, I mean,
the Second Ecumenical Council pretty much forbids any

1049
01:32:16.840 --> 01:32:24.640
kind of pre millennial stuff. So
You've got this guy influenced by dispensationalism and

1050
01:32:24.760 --> 01:32:29.760
Protestant pre millennialism. How could that
be? That's not Catholic or Orthodox.

1051
01:32:30.319 --> 01:32:34.840
Okay, I ask which you mean? I mean, I mean, Francis

1052
01:32:34.880 --> 01:32:40.039
can still be an evil person,
but that doesn't mean that William Tapley is

1053
01:32:40.119 --> 01:32:45.399
correct. Okay, well, yeah, I understand which you means. Have

1054
01:32:45.560 --> 01:32:51.560
you seen the the apparition of Benedict
the sixth Saints to the Colombian Non?

1055
01:32:53.479 --> 01:32:56.880
Have you seen anything about that?
No? I'm sorry, man, I'm

1056
01:32:56.880 --> 01:33:00.720
not trying to be rude, but
look, guys, I mean Catholicism,

1057
01:33:00.800 --> 01:33:09.279
man is Look all this apparitions and
Protestant end time stuff. I mean,

1058
01:33:09.359 --> 01:33:13.199
guys, that's not authentic Christianity.
I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be

1059
01:33:13.199 --> 01:33:15.840
mean to you, guys, not
distant. I don't hate you guys,

1060
01:33:15.960 --> 01:33:24.640
but I mean this is just clown
level stuff. Man. I mean,

1061
01:33:24.920 --> 01:33:28.520
do y'all not know about I mean, maybe that guy was even trolling me.

1062
01:33:30.319 --> 01:33:35.680
Doom and Gloom, y'all know third, this is Doom and Gloom.

1063
01:33:36.319 --> 01:33:45.720
Listen to thirty goals tune. This
is the boomer at his keyboard and he

1064
01:33:45.840 --> 01:33:54.760
sings about like the third Eagle,
and it's just the most ridiculous boomer evangelical

1065
01:33:55.119 --> 01:34:12.319
but Catholic end time stuff. Listen
to thirty Eagles too. Doom and Gloom

1066
01:34:13.119 --> 01:34:23.880
coming soon. I'm not joking.
Very soon you'll see signs and the moon.

1067
01:34:25.439 --> 01:34:32.479
He's even got the Yankee boomer uh
nasal Doom and gloom. Listen to

1068
01:34:32.720 --> 01:34:39.680
thirty Galls tone so. I mean, this is even worse if it's a

1069
01:34:39.760 --> 01:34:47.840
Yankee boomer, very sooner. Rapture
comes Internet. Sorry nobody if your orthodox

1070
01:34:47.920 --> 01:34:56.359
are Catholic, can believe in the
rapture. This is a goober. Why

1071
01:34:56.399 --> 01:35:03.079
are y'all following goobers? Come on? Doom and Gloom calming soon. Listen

1072
01:35:03.239 --> 01:35:12.720
to thirty Goals too very soon,
if you're ready, you will meeting up

1073
01:35:12.760 --> 01:35:20.560
bright and Groom. I mean Crunch
Corp. I have to admit might have

1074
01:35:20.720 --> 01:35:26.119
a little bit of third Eagle influence
to it. You know what I mean.

1075
01:35:26.600 --> 01:35:30.039
I mean, I mean we used
to I used to get get buzzed

1076
01:35:30.159 --> 01:35:34.840
up, like fourteen years ago and
we were just die laughing watching this stuff.

1077
01:35:34.920 --> 01:35:41.800
Dude, this is funny stuff thirteen
years ago. Yep, don't be

1078
01:35:42.359 --> 01:35:50.159
dumb. Fracture columns long before the
seventh Trump. Oh, he said Trump

1079
01:35:50.319 --> 01:35:54.359
dude. Maybe he is a prophet. Maybe he was talking about Trump back

1080
01:35:54.359 --> 01:36:00.479
then? Whoa dude, My mom's
blowing. What's up? Liam? They'll

1081
01:36:00.479 --> 01:36:09.800
be dumb. Listen to Third Eagles
tune No Man Gloom, calming Soul.

1082
01:36:10.479 --> 01:36:16.960
Listen told Abo our ears told?
Are you there? Man? Brother Jay?

1083
01:36:17.079 --> 01:36:18.880
How are you? Sir? Good? Good to see it. Have

1084
01:36:18.960 --> 01:36:23.680
you been? You been? Brother
Jay? Are we how are we brothers?

1085
01:36:24.920 --> 01:36:29.359
Well? I mean we're brothers in
Christ? I hope. I don't

1086
01:36:29.399 --> 01:36:30.600
know. I'm not trying to be
mean, but who are you? I

1087
01:36:30.640 --> 01:36:35.239
don't know. I don't know.
I'm like a dude on the internet who

1088
01:36:35.399 --> 01:36:41.199
shares your religious persuasion? I mean, are you Orthodox? I am?

1089
01:36:41.439 --> 01:36:45.760
Okay? Yeah? Yeah no.
I also noticed, and I think you

1090
01:36:45.840 --> 01:36:51.119
deserve some congratulation, didn't You recently
went an award for being the most influential

1091
01:36:51.159 --> 01:36:56.560
Eastern Orthodox person on social media.
It wasn't an award, it was that

1092
01:36:56.720 --> 01:37:00.239
was a father deacon. And Nias
is making a joke about a survey that

1093
01:37:01.039 --> 01:37:04.840
one OCA group did the turn that
results that some of them didn't like.

1094
01:37:06.359 --> 01:37:10.399
Yeah, I'm gonna take and run
with it and say that that's awesome and

1095
01:37:10.520 --> 01:37:14.279
congratulations, and then that's well deserved. I appreciate the fine work you're doing

1096
01:37:14.359 --> 01:37:16.159
here, and it's good. There
are a lot of spaces on here being

1097
01:37:16.239 --> 01:37:26.039
run by absolute charlatan's and it's nice
to come on and see someone who isn't

1098
01:37:26.079 --> 01:37:31.000
a complete pretender having fun and telling
the truth. So so without irony,

1099
01:37:31.000 --> 01:37:33.239
I appreciate what you're doing, and
I just want to thank you very much.

1100
01:37:33.720 --> 01:37:39.760
Thank you. Now, Now it
says debate, So I'm supposed to

1101
01:37:39.800 --> 01:37:42.720
try to debate something with you,
right, So I'm gonna do a circle.

1102
01:37:43.000 --> 01:37:45.920
I'm gonna warm up my pitching arm. I'm gonna warm up my pitching

1103
01:37:45.039 --> 01:37:47.119
arm. All right, all right, here's the debate I think we should

1104
01:37:47.119 --> 01:37:51.800
have. All right, in the
title of the room, use the word

1105
01:37:51.920 --> 01:37:58.359
Catholic, and I don't think we
should concede to the Roman Catholics that they

1106
01:37:58.439 --> 01:38:00.359
are the Catholics and the other churches
are not the Catholics. I think we

1107
01:38:00.399 --> 01:38:04.600
should call them Roman Catholics every time. Yeah, it doesn't fit when you

1108
01:38:04.720 --> 01:38:06.960
have a limited number of spaces.
I agree with that. Oh, this

1109
01:38:08.079 --> 01:38:13.000
is like one hundred and forty character
thing, gotcha. Yeah, I mean,

1110
01:38:13.159 --> 01:38:15.800
you don't have you don't have to
posit a debate topic. You can

1111
01:38:15.880 --> 01:38:18.279
ask questions or chat or whatever.
But it's just I'm just hope and open

1112
01:38:18.319 --> 01:38:23.680
it up to debate in any time
that somebody wants to. But no,

1113
01:38:23.760 --> 01:38:31.279
I agree that they are the Frankish
Papal Church and we are the Orthodox,

1114
01:38:31.520 --> 01:38:35.960
Roman and Catholic Church. I think. I think that one of the strongest

1115
01:38:36.039 --> 01:38:42.439
points that Callistos where makes in his
first book, which people are blown away

1116
01:38:42.600 --> 01:38:47.399
whenever I cite, is that if
you go and ask the Patriarch of Constantinople

1117
01:38:47.439 --> 01:38:50.640
if he's Catholic, he'll say yes. And if you go and ask the

1118
01:38:50.680 --> 01:38:55.960
Pope of Rome if he's Orthodox,
he'll say yes. And this conflation of

1119
01:38:56.039 --> 01:38:58.079
the and I'm telling you what you
already know. I mean, but for

1120
01:38:58.119 --> 01:39:05.199
the benefit of the listeners, that
this marketing dichotomy where we tell the general

1121
01:39:05.279 --> 01:39:09.760
public that one of these churches is
Catholic and the other one is Orthodox,

1122
01:39:10.279 --> 01:39:15.640
I think really serves to understand neither
church very well. Yeah, I just

1123
01:39:15.800 --> 01:39:20.359
do that because it's commonly known and
spoken of that way to bring in Roman

1124
01:39:20.439 --> 01:39:25.960
Catholics through the title. That's it. I agree with you. I like

1125
01:39:26.119 --> 01:39:29.439
to brag I do like to brag
I met the man once and he is

1126
01:39:29.600 --> 01:39:33.920
just like the most amazing man and
everyone is. He just talks everyone's socks

1127
01:39:33.960 --> 01:39:41.039
off. He's one of the most
colostos. Oh okay, Yeah, just

1128
01:39:43.199 --> 01:39:45.279
like when I read his book.
In his book, he's like when you

1129
01:39:45.359 --> 01:39:48.640
meet Orthodox Christians, they'll like show
you their icons. I mean, like,

1130
01:39:48.720 --> 01:39:53.439
this is my faith. But I
really do think in the twenty first

1131
01:39:53.520 --> 01:39:58.359
century, when you meet Orthodox people
and you're curious about it, and you're

1132
01:39:58.359 --> 01:40:00.640
like, hey, you know what's
Orthodoxy about, one of the first things

1133
01:40:00.720 --> 01:40:02.640
they show you is his books and
like, you know, this is the

1134
01:40:02.720 --> 01:40:05.560
history of the Church, and this
is the schism and this is how we

1135
01:40:05.680 --> 01:40:10.199
went from you know, the Book
of Acts. And I don't know,

1136
01:40:10.239 --> 01:40:12.760
I just I have such great admiration
for the man. I would take any

1137
01:40:12.840 --> 01:40:16.000
excuse to talk about him. Really. Yeah, I've read several of his

1138
01:40:16.119 --> 01:40:19.640
books. I think that he has
a lot of good points. I think

1139
01:40:19.680 --> 01:40:26.159
there's some problems in his Orthodox Way
book, but not everybody gets at all.

1140
01:40:26.279 --> 01:40:31.560
Right now, this fascinates me.
This is in all of my years,

1141
01:40:32.640 --> 01:40:36.680
the first time I have heard an
Orthodox person say a word against against

1142
01:40:36.760 --> 01:40:42.079
Metropolitan whear. So what is it
an Orthodox way that you don't feel he

1143
01:40:42.119 --> 01:40:48.000
gets correctly. There's a specifically erroneous
statement about the sun being forsaken on the

1144
01:40:48.079 --> 01:40:54.800
cross, which is a Protestant view. Gotcha? All right? Thank you

1145
01:40:54.920 --> 01:41:00.399
for Sharon. Yeah, anything else
you want to leave us with? Oh?

1146
01:41:00.520 --> 01:41:03.159
No, just did I enjoy your
spaces that. I'm incredibly grateful for

1147
01:41:03.319 --> 01:41:09.159
the work that you do, and
I hope you'll keep going. And uh,

1148
01:41:09.279 --> 01:41:11.760
and I wish you all good fortune. Thanks man, I appreciate that.

1149
01:41:12.119 --> 01:41:15.880
And uh, good comments. You
have a good night. Let's see

1150
01:41:15.920 --> 01:41:20.199
who's up next? The so journal? What's so so journal? What's on

1151
01:41:20.319 --> 01:41:26.800
your mind? It feels like late
night love radio? What's on your mind?

1152
01:41:29.000 --> 01:41:32.039
Who you want to send this dedication
out to? I'd like to dedicate

1153
01:41:32.520 --> 01:41:39.119
third Eagles, Doom and Gloom to
my one true love, Bayulah Doom Man

1154
01:41:39.399 --> 01:41:53.479
Gloom the days let's flood sure comes
their blood. Don't be dumb. Rapture

1155
01:41:53.640 --> 01:42:00.199
comes done. Don't be dumb.
Rapture comes your lamps. There won't be

1156
01:42:01.279 --> 01:42:17.800
every one seven years, tears and
fears. Tribulation will up here seven years.

1157
01:42:20.239 --> 01:42:27.359
It would be very worst. What
tears and fears cheers? Four fears

1158
01:42:28.439 --> 01:42:33.039
what's up. What's on your mind? Doumen blown. Hey, Jay thinks

1159
01:42:33.359 --> 01:42:41.239
I had a question about if you
could point to good resources to learn about

1160
01:42:41.399 --> 01:42:45.119
all the ecumenical councils and like what
they had talked about and kind of like

1161
01:42:45.199 --> 01:42:47.600
what came out of it. It's
hard to try to find like one complete

1162
01:42:47.680 --> 01:42:50.439
source or you just kind of point
to something. I mean, I would

1163
01:42:50.479 --> 01:42:54.800
just read the Again, there's not
going to be one perfect book on the

1164
01:42:56.319 --> 01:43:00.359
the Seven Councils. I wish there
was. You could get my endor has

1165
01:43:00.399 --> 01:43:04.119
a book on the history Orthodox Church
that's good. His book Byzantine Theology is

1166
01:43:04.199 --> 01:43:11.840
good. There's also volume one and
two a pelicon, so you don't have

1167
01:43:11.960 --> 01:43:17.079
to read volume three unless you want
to go into medieval stuff. But one

1168
01:43:17.119 --> 01:43:21.920
and two of this book right here, emergency the Cally tradition are probably the

1169
01:43:21.960 --> 01:43:28.960
best that I could think of for
what you're probably looking for. Okay,

1170
01:43:29.920 --> 01:43:35.720
he thinks, yeah, because one
deals with the first five centuries generally speaking

1171
01:43:36.760 --> 01:43:44.720
of the Church, and then volume
two deals with Eastern Christianity and it's actually

1172
01:43:44.760 --> 01:43:49.640
really good. So it's going to
cover the spirit of Eastern Christendom. Byzantium,

1173
01:43:50.399 --> 01:43:54.319
you know, six hundred and seventeen
hundred. So that's probably the best

1174
01:43:54.399 --> 01:43:59.199
that I could think of for what
you're looking for. Handmade somebody, what's

1175
01:43:59.279 --> 01:44:17.159
up handmade? Doom Man Gloom,
kaming Son. Listen to the Yankees Nasal

1176
01:44:17.279 --> 01:44:25.640
Tone, Doom and Gloom, Yankee
Doom, nasal Boom. Think our lovely

1177
01:44:25.840 --> 01:44:30.720
plan it has been cursed? Is
that man tiers and tears and fears,

1178
01:44:30.760 --> 01:44:35.960
and Katholic Church will be a ghosts
that man hears jeers. Yeah. By

1179
01:44:36.000 --> 01:44:41.640
the way, if you're a papist, then you have to believe as Vatican

1180
01:44:41.720 --> 01:44:49.680
one says that the office of the
papacy and its successors and its function continues

1181
01:44:49.720 --> 01:44:55.720
to the end of the world.
There is no such thing as a apostate

1182
01:44:56.000 --> 01:45:03.600
Rome if you believe Vatican One.
But again, as we see, most

1183
01:45:04.279 --> 01:45:10.319
of the Roman Catholics do not go
and read their own documents. Now I

1184
01:45:10.399 --> 01:45:15.000
don't know why, but you have
to go to papal encyclicals to read the

1185
01:45:15.239 --> 01:45:20.960
entirety of Vatican One. And once
again I'll put it in the chat for

1186
01:45:21.079 --> 01:45:27.319
you guys. Seems like this will
be at the Vatican website, but I

1187
01:45:27.399 --> 01:45:30.119
don't know. For some reason,
maybe maybe they're embarrassed the Vatican One.

1188
01:45:30.199 --> 01:45:34.039
Now it would seem that way with
all the synodality, right, And what

1189
01:45:34.159 --> 01:45:38.880
has Tim Gordon been talking about?
What did he just do a stream about?

1190
01:45:39.479 --> 01:45:45.399
Actually it was actually a good stream
and let's see where's where's Tim att?

1191
01:45:47.079 --> 01:45:53.880
He just did a stream on the
synod on sinodality, which is funny

1192
01:45:53.960 --> 01:45:55.640
because you know, like, what
does that mean? Why do you need

1193
01:45:55.680 --> 01:46:00.720
a synod? It's like meta the
weed to have a sin on on synods

1194
01:46:00.479 --> 01:46:13.800
and synods synod on the sinodality of
synods by the way, the let's see

1195
01:46:13.800 --> 01:46:16.880
if we can. I can't figure
this out. Where's it at? Oh?

1196
01:46:16.960 --> 01:46:30.119
Live streams? Do mangloom coming soon? Listen to the boomers tone synod

1197
01:46:30.239 --> 01:46:35.560
update synod on sinodality. Now this
isn't scientific, but I did a pool

1198
01:46:35.640 --> 01:46:41.319
around New York. Not always get
the Epoch times ads, so the only

1199
01:46:41.399 --> 01:46:48.199
AD I get is epart to those
bigger channels don't have the date. I

1200
01:46:48.279 --> 01:46:54.640
think this is it anyway. So
Tim's basically we're like, why do we

1201
01:46:54.720 --> 01:46:58.199
need a synod in sinidality? And
I'm like, well, because the synod

1202
01:46:58.279 --> 01:47:05.960
on sentidality is about the Alexandrian documents
Statements of sentidality and premacy. That's why.

1203
01:47:06.159 --> 01:47:13.279
So I had a point with all
this. So we're on Vatican one.

1204
01:47:15.159 --> 01:47:20.000
The reason that I'm trying to remember
the exact wording. It's like the

1205
01:47:20.159 --> 01:47:24.319
end of the ages. Right,
there's there's a couple of phrases in Vatican

1206
01:47:24.399 --> 01:47:31.159
one about the continuance of the office
of the papacy. I always said,

1207
01:47:31.159 --> 01:47:36.520
into the end, that's an end. Let's see. So just as he

1208
01:47:36.600 --> 01:47:44.319
sent apostles, right, this is
in the section on Vatican One's section on

1209
01:47:45.680 --> 01:47:51.319
the role of the Pope as the
teacher of the faithful, and we move

1210
01:47:51.399 --> 01:47:57.680
on to it is as will that
there would be these shepherds and teachers until

1211
01:47:57.720 --> 01:48:03.920
the end of time. See that. So when you try to think,

1212
01:48:04.079 --> 01:48:12.720
when you try to cite Lo silette
and all this nonsense that's prior to Vatican

1213
01:48:12.800 --> 01:48:17.199
One, all these dumb set of
a contest that are citing Lo soilette like

1214
01:48:17.800 --> 01:48:23.039
Rome will apostatize and become the seat
of the empty crushed in the end times.

1215
01:48:23.079 --> 01:48:30.000
And it's like, no, uh, Vatican one has sorry, Vatican

1216
01:48:30.079 --> 01:48:35.640
one, Trump's apparitions. Maybe it
doesn't though maybe actually in Rome Catholicism it's

1217
01:48:36.279 --> 01:48:40.439
apparitions. Nowadays, Trump but I
think they do. I think actually in

1218
01:48:40.560 --> 01:48:45.560
practice, apparitions trump Vatican one and
the documents, the dogmas. But everybody

1219
01:48:45.680 --> 01:48:49.920
knows that, you know, papism
is actually you're not. Mary is not

1220
01:48:50.159 --> 01:48:54.720
the pope of the church. The
pope is the pope of the church.

1221
01:48:56.319 --> 01:49:06.359
And Vatican one is very clear that
the fundamental structure of the Church exists until

1222
01:49:06.439 --> 01:49:11.720
the end of the world. The
Church does not lose any of its constituent

1223
01:49:11.800 --> 01:49:16.319
elements, according to the Roman doctrine
of Vatican One, until the end of

1224
01:49:16.319 --> 01:49:19.600
the world. And that does not
mean that, oh well, in the

1225
01:49:19.760 --> 01:49:23.600
end of the world the Church loses
all her elements. No, it doesn't

1226
01:49:23.960 --> 01:49:38.479
until the return of Christ. Bro
And it constantly says that the structure of

1227
01:49:39.319 --> 01:49:45.520
extraordinary Magisterium and the ordinary Universal Magisterium, it preserves this until the end.

1228
01:49:50.399 --> 01:49:56.600
And that's partly because and so that
the entire world can recognize that, right,

1229
01:49:56.680 --> 01:49:59.840
the papal Church is the church Church. That's the logic of Vatican one.

1230
01:50:00.119 --> 01:50:06.079
How could it lose its fundamental public
visible witness, in constituent element of

1231
01:50:06.279 --> 01:50:12.560
unity centered around the papal office.
And all the triads are like, oh,

1232
01:50:12.640 --> 01:50:15.279
it's all rome as apostate Okay,
then you don't believe that it can

1233
01:50:15.359 --> 01:50:21.760
want It's very simple. Shepherds and
teachers until the end of time, one

1234
01:50:21.840 --> 01:50:28.279
and undivided. It doesn't lose its
public visible unity until the end of time.

1235
01:50:30.479 --> 01:50:34.079
The shepherds are there until the end
of time. And where's all of

1236
01:50:34.119 --> 01:50:40.159
our papal lawyers at doesn't mean that
they can't, yes, it does.

1237
01:50:40.640 --> 01:50:46.479
It says, until the end of
time. Please stop pope's plainting the cope,

1238
01:50:47.840 --> 01:50:54.079
the papal lawyering. It was his
will that in this church there would

1239
01:50:54.079 --> 01:50:59.720
be shepherds. Who's the supreme shepherd
the pope until the end? Come on?

1240
01:51:04.520 --> 01:51:08.640
What does it say right here in
chapter two under the this is like

1241
01:51:08.800 --> 01:51:14.720
the footnotes or whatever, it's the
summary. It says that this will stand

1242
01:51:14.800 --> 01:51:19.439
until the end. The Roman Church
and Peter's successors will stand until the end.

1243
01:51:20.520 --> 01:51:24.920
There's no such thing, by the
way, as a Roman church that

1244
01:51:25.079 --> 01:51:27.720
is not the one in Rome.
This is another one. They have a

1245
01:51:27.760 --> 01:51:30.359
million answer copes to this. Well, I believe in the Roman Church,

1246
01:51:30.439 --> 01:51:34.279
but it's the one that exists in
the Platonic forms. That's not actually in

1247
01:51:34.399 --> 01:51:39.039
Rome. Rome's Aposta. But the
Trade church exists in the ethereal realm of

1248
01:51:39.119 --> 01:51:43.520
my mind and online. No,
that's not. The only Roman church is

1249
01:51:43.600 --> 01:51:51.479
the one in the city called Rome
anyway, but it says it says it's

1250
01:51:51.560 --> 01:51:57.119
until the end, like multiple times
in here. So again, Catholics,

1251
01:51:57.399 --> 01:52:01.079
please go read Vatican one before you
do. Like these guys never go read.

1252
01:52:01.079 --> 01:52:03.800
They never actually read Vaticant with all
the ways that do read Vatican wolden

1253
01:52:03.840 --> 01:52:12.039
end up becoming Orthodox. But let's
see ghost ghostidious, ghostious, Ghostcious.

1254
01:52:12.119 --> 01:52:25.800
I like that they're superstitious and they're
freaking ghostitious. Dude, So God,

1255
01:52:26.279 --> 01:52:29.199
you're over here in the chat,
bro, you want a debate, Come

1256
01:52:29.239 --> 01:52:31.640
on the stream. Why do you
think everybody comes to the chat on YouTube?

1257
01:52:31.680 --> 01:52:34.760
Be like, Oh, I'd love
to talk to him. I'd really

1258
01:52:34.840 --> 01:52:39.199
love to take him to task.
What that's what it we're here for?

1259
01:52:42.119 --> 01:52:48.920
There you go step into the Bruno
thunder Dog. I'm just being silly,

1260
01:52:49.760 --> 01:52:54.159
are you there? Dude? Ghostcious? What's up? He can't connect?

1261
01:52:56.239 --> 01:53:00.560
Well, maybe pop out and pop
back in? Ill? Okay, what's

1262
01:53:00.640 --> 01:53:11.199
up? Doom man'd gloom calming.
Britain, Russia and the US will be

1263
01:53:11.439 --> 01:53:23.800
most Britain rossha and the US will
be toast nasal Gloom, Yankee Boom Listen

1264
01:53:23.960 --> 01:53:35.199
through the Boomers, doom World,
Where's everybody? They can't connect? What's

1265
01:53:35.600 --> 01:53:47.079
what's going on? Back tinfoil high, What's up? Doom Man gloom post

1266
01:53:49.680 --> 01:53:59.840
Listen through the Yankees croon. Okay, yes, ma'am, okay. I

1267
01:54:00.000 --> 01:54:02.239
I kind of wanted to just talk
about two different entsties. One was iconography,

1268
01:54:02.279 --> 01:54:05.199
which is kind of the lighter topic
and the other topics. The other

1269
01:54:05.319 --> 01:54:13.079
topic was kind of about liberation theology. Okay. I go to an Antiochian

1270
01:54:13.239 --> 01:54:18.079
church and majority of the prishioners are
staring, so they kind of recognize.

1271
01:54:18.119 --> 01:54:21.800
Like I was watching a streamless neck
with regards to for teller for telling foody,

1272
01:54:23.680 --> 01:54:26.560
and I had I took it to
our Bible study and I had to

1273
01:54:26.720 --> 01:54:30.720
read that, and they sniffed that
out immediately, Like they sniffed out all

1274
01:54:30.760 --> 01:54:34.560
of the different like geopolitical things that
were involved in all of that. Whereas

1275
01:54:34.600 --> 01:54:41.399
I think that Roman Catholics have a
problem because they're so Western like brainwashed from

1276
01:54:41.479 --> 01:54:44.720
all of this, you know,
like growing up in this environment. I

1277
01:54:44.840 --> 01:54:47.840
know I was a brainwashed Roman Catholic
for quite some time, you know,

1278
01:54:48.159 --> 01:54:53.239
just that questern philosophy where we're just
like, yeah, we climate change is

1279
01:54:53.319 --> 01:54:56.720
great, and yeah we should just
go out and hang out with all of

1280
01:54:56.840 --> 01:55:00.840
the people on the Amazon and that's
wonderful. But they they really seem to

1281
01:55:00.960 --> 01:55:03.680
understand that. And I just thought
that was really interesting when I put that

1282
01:55:03.760 --> 01:55:08.840
document in front of them, that
they thought that immediately you're saying that the

1283
01:55:09.239 --> 01:55:16.840
Syrian people recognize that there's a geopolitical
motive in Francis's for Telly tu D like

1284
01:55:16.960 --> 01:55:21.399
so the liberation theology aspects of it, Like oh, I mean, yeah,

1285
01:55:21.720 --> 01:55:26.119
they really recognize that because they're they're
very devout people. But people don't

1286
01:55:26.159 --> 01:55:28.800
realize its star like this. At
least the scaring people that I know are

1287
01:55:28.840 --> 01:55:32.399
extremely devout, and most of them
I have are just like brand new here.

1288
01:55:32.640 --> 01:55:35.960
I live in on past though,
so like they're they're brand new here,

1289
01:55:36.960 --> 01:55:43.239
and most of them speak Arabic as
their main language error and so I

1290
01:55:43.399 --> 01:55:47.000
really that's why I wanted to show
them, like what what kind of like

1291
01:55:47.079 --> 01:55:49.399
what would do you think of this? You know, what exactly do you

1292
01:55:49.439 --> 01:55:55.520
think this? What would you say
and say are untropolitans? Saba put something

1293
01:55:55.600 --> 01:55:58.760
like that out and they just kind
of snipped out all of the aspects of

1294
01:55:58.840 --> 01:56:01.279
it that were that you it's that
hit on which I thought was really interesting.

1295
01:56:03.279 --> 01:56:05.720
Yeah, I'm just trying to remember
what all we talked about, and

1296
01:56:05.800 --> 01:56:11.079
that's that's been what two years ago, maybe two and a half. So

1297
01:56:11.880 --> 01:56:15.560
some hit some stuff in there about
like climate change and then like about shaming

1298
01:56:15.720 --> 01:56:20.800
people for being wasteful, the oppression
of man, you know, we're we're

1299
01:56:20.960 --> 01:56:25.760
slaves because you know, we're we're
appressed because we're a Westerners and we've been

1300
01:56:25.760 --> 01:56:30.039
oppressing the Amazon keeopleing. You guys
like nailed that down. I think it

1301
01:56:30.119 --> 01:56:32.520
was you guys did in a two
part series. I think it's back in

1302
01:56:33.439 --> 01:56:36.319
twenty twenty. Yeah, I'm just
saying it's a it's been I mean,

1303
01:56:36.399 --> 01:56:45.560
I do remember, it's just been
a while. So let's see. We

1304
01:56:45.680 --> 01:56:50.640
did the encyclical following Pacha Mama.
Right here, here's one a New Order,

1305
01:56:50.760 --> 01:56:57.479
a globalized encyclical. Okay, so
I'll put that in the chat for

1306
01:56:57.560 --> 01:57:01.399
these people there for Yeah, we've
forget about Francis's greatest hits, like we

1307
01:57:01.520 --> 01:57:05.760
can't forget uh, you know,
for Telly Tudi and all these different ones.

1308
01:57:09.479 --> 01:57:11.680
So what what's what did you,
what did you want to do with

1309
01:57:12.000 --> 01:57:18.439
icons? All the icons are our
priest he actually teaches at the Antiochian House

1310
01:57:18.479 --> 01:57:21.960
with studies, so after the vespers
he tends to like for those of us

1311
01:57:21.960 --> 01:57:26.399
who are an adult Bible study,
he'll talk about the icons. And he

1312
01:57:26.479 --> 01:57:30.600
was he was saying that he loved
the seventh actually medical councils, and he

1313
01:57:30.720 --> 01:57:34.239
quizes osamis all the time, even
even those of us who are active in

1314
01:57:34.319 --> 01:57:38.760
the church. But he he hit
on some really good points about that,

1315
01:57:38.880 --> 01:57:42.119
Like the icons are really he said, that are the things that bind the

1316
01:57:42.239 --> 01:57:46.640
church together? Is it? Because
they bring together the tradition, the liturgy,

1317
01:57:46.800 --> 01:57:51.039
and the Gospel all into one.
And he went he went through We

1318
01:57:51.159 --> 01:57:55.039
had an iconographer come to our church
and she pointed and she paid to the

1319
01:57:55.159 --> 01:57:59.279
dormation of Mary and she and she
came and talked to us about like the

1320
01:57:59.720 --> 01:58:02.079
the the actual rituals that they go
through, like the Bible, pastages that

1321
01:58:02.199 --> 01:58:06.279
they read beforehanded, what are rigorous, Like it's extremely rigorous. They have

1322
01:58:06.439 --> 01:58:11.359
the Mass, they go to Mass, I mean, and he I just

1323
01:58:11.399 --> 01:58:15.560
thought that was really interesting that he
really emphasized that. And I just think

1324
01:58:15.600 --> 01:58:18.079
people like take the icons for granted, there's just all those are just pictures

1325
01:58:18.159 --> 01:58:23.159
on the wall for catechumus, you
know, I think that's as hard for

1326
01:58:23.239 --> 01:58:28.439
them to understand. Yeah, if
you go back to UH Sneck and I

1327
01:58:28.520 --> 01:58:35.760
actually did a really good interview on
icons back in UH twenty twenty is as

1328
01:58:35.840 --> 01:58:42.000
well. That video is good.
I did a really in depth icon talk

1329
01:58:42.159 --> 01:58:45.319
that was super philosophical. Maybe it
was a little too philosophical for people because

1330
01:58:45.319 --> 01:58:48.920
they didn't get a lot of abused. But if people are interested in the

1331
01:58:49.000 --> 01:58:57.359
philosophical take on icons that I was
trying to convey from an orthodox perspective,

1332
01:58:58.920 --> 01:59:01.279
I also have a talk on that
at and then pageot and I did a

1333
01:59:01.399 --> 01:59:09.159
great talk on icons that is basically
pointing out that symbols aren't like a world

1334
01:59:09.239 --> 01:59:15.560
of fake things or imaginary things.
Symbols are reality, so they're there they

1335
01:59:15.640 --> 01:59:21.319
convey the reality for us. Of
course, my video won't come up when

1336
01:59:21.319 --> 01:59:25.520
I'm looking for it here it is
icon an incarnation. The reality of symbols

1337
01:59:25.640 --> 01:59:31.039
is another one of the talks I
did that I tried to convey that point.

1338
01:59:31.119 --> 01:59:34.600
So if you haven't watched those,
i'd recommend those. But what did

1339
01:59:34.640 --> 01:59:38.960
you want to get to an icon
is just that they all it ties together

1340
01:59:39.079 --> 01:59:42.000
all. One of the reasons that
it does that is that if you read

1341
01:59:42.079 --> 01:59:45.119
the theology of the Seventh Council,
and it's theologians like Saint John Namascus and

1342
01:59:45.279 --> 01:59:53.359
Saint Theodore's Dudai, you'll notice that
what they cite is Christology and Trinitarian theology.

1343
01:59:53.840 --> 02:00:00.520
Right. All of the principles of
iconography come from Trinitarian and Christological beliefs,

1344
02:00:00.760 --> 02:00:05.720
so as well as liturgy too in
tradition, but the philosophy that undergirds

1345
02:00:05.760 --> 02:00:12.079
it is Christology. I know when
you did that talk with David, you

1346
02:00:12.199 --> 02:00:16.960
mentioned that dur Us Europa Temple and
how that the old the Old Testament with

1347
02:00:17.039 --> 02:00:20.279
the New Testament and the Old Tradition
with the New tradition, which is why

1348
02:00:20.960 --> 02:00:27.840
it proves that the Orthodox tradition in
the way that we filled our churches and

1349
02:00:28.760 --> 02:00:33.600
that creat our churches, and how
we conduct our services and even the setup

1350
02:00:33.640 --> 02:00:38.199
of the church is very similar to
that. And you can prove that even

1351
02:00:38.359 --> 02:00:43.479
using the icons absolutely. In fact, in fact this chat that we did

1352
02:00:43.640 --> 02:00:48.479
Sneck and I, we went deep
into the Frankish history and what you learn

1353
02:00:48.520 --> 02:00:54.680
when you get the Frankish stuff is
that the Carolinians rejected the subnth Ecumenical Council,

1354
02:00:55.319 --> 02:01:00.159
and they did so because they were
into Neoplatonism. And so if you

1355
02:01:00.199 --> 02:01:03.800
don't know the iconoclass, we're also
neoplatonists. So people don't realize this,

1356
02:01:03.960 --> 02:01:11.800
but the rejection of iconography, it's
motivations philosophically were originism and Neoplatonism, and

1357
02:01:13.119 --> 02:01:16.920
it's a very fascinating history to that. But aside from the theology side,

1358
02:01:17.000 --> 02:01:21.880
when you get into the history with
the Franks, they had geopolitical motivations as

1359
02:01:23.000 --> 02:01:27.680
well, which were which which was
the reason why they rejected the Seventh Council.

1360
02:01:28.239 --> 02:01:31.600
And this impart is why, ironically
the pope of that time, at

1361
02:01:31.640 --> 02:01:36.640
the time of the Franks, actually
did accept the Seventh Council in full.

1362
02:01:38.279 --> 02:01:43.000
But the problem is that the Seventh
Council over time it was realized that the

1363
02:01:43.119 --> 02:01:47.760
Seventh Council accepts Trolo, but Trollo
teaches married priests. So Rome had to

1364
02:01:47.840 --> 02:01:51.439
say, no, actually, we
don't accept the Seventh Council. We give

1365
02:01:51.479 --> 02:01:56.720
it verbal credence, but they don't
accept the sonauticon and they don't accept the

1366
02:01:56.840 --> 02:02:00.920
canons of the Seventh Council, which
would forbid half of the pagan artwork in

1367
02:02:00.960 --> 02:02:08.720
the Roman Colley churches. Who also
mentioned something about the heterodox icons. When

1368
02:02:08.760 --> 02:02:11.600
did the when did that all started? All the Jesuits pushed some of those,

1369
02:02:12.279 --> 02:02:15.079
but when did that where the heterodox
icons really started to be put?

1370
02:02:15.279 --> 02:02:20.119
I guess I don't actually know when
the first heterodox icon would be pushed.

1371
02:02:20.159 --> 02:02:23.560
That's a good it's a good question. I mean, if you read the

1372
02:02:24.479 --> 02:02:28.000
Loski Auspensky book on the Theology of
the Icon, which is really good.

1373
02:02:28.319 --> 02:02:31.479
It's a two volume thing. Volume
two gets into the whole chapter on the

1374
02:02:31.560 --> 02:02:38.359
heterodox icons, and uh, you
know exactly where they come from? Who

1375
02:02:38.439 --> 02:02:41.079
knows? I don't. I mean, there's probably somebody that knows, but

1376
02:02:41.159 --> 02:02:44.039
you'd have to ask some specialist on
that kind of stuff. I don't know,

1377
02:02:44.239 --> 02:02:47.920
but I'm trying to remember the names
of them that they have. The

1378
02:02:48.359 --> 02:02:57.079
heterodox ones all have names like because
they're trying to teach Philly o Quay basically,

1379
02:02:57.600 --> 02:03:01.039
and they usually have God the Father
like next to Christ, and then

1380
02:03:01.039 --> 02:03:04.920
they're they're both they're both sending the
spirit, which God the Father is not

1381
02:03:05.119 --> 02:03:11.399
an old man, so it's obviously
that's wrong. Do you want you want

1382
02:03:11.399 --> 02:03:15.199
to you went you went through a
pretty agree, responds with David. I

1383
02:03:15.319 --> 02:03:16.880
do remember that, Yeah, I
just remember the names of them. If

1384
02:03:17.000 --> 02:03:25.760
anybody remembers in the chat the names
of some of the let's see icon with

1385
02:03:26.239 --> 02:03:36.359
Philioque. I mean basically they all
have that. Well, this this,

1386
02:03:38.439 --> 02:03:45.560
I think this is one of them. I don't know that one might be

1387
02:03:46.439 --> 02:03:51.319
an ancient of days, so I'm
not positive on that. Let me see,

1388
02:03:54.119 --> 02:03:55.880
I don't know. I just don't
remember. They have names, but

1389
02:03:55.960 --> 02:04:00.199
I don't remember what the names are
off top of my head. Hope anybody

1390
02:04:00.239 --> 02:04:02.840
wants to know the names. I
know you did go through. Well,

1391
02:04:02.840 --> 02:04:08.119
I mean this is not an icon, but it's like, here's obviously a

1392
02:04:08.239 --> 02:04:16.039
heterodox Roman Catholic version of this where
God the Father is breathing next to Christ

1393
02:04:16.159 --> 02:04:20.119
on the cross. Though, I
mean what this is crazy? I mean

1394
02:04:20.840 --> 02:04:26.000
the baby Jesus sitting on the old
man's lap. Well, that one I'm

1395
02:04:26.039 --> 02:04:31.640
trying to remember. I think that
one is supposed to convey Philly oak Way.

1396
02:04:31.800 --> 02:04:34.720
I just don't remember off the top
of my head which one is which.

1397
02:04:34.840 --> 02:04:39.880
But anyway, yeah, it's all
in that one talk that we did.

1398
02:04:43.600 --> 02:04:45.520
Did you have anything else? Yeah, I just want to say,

1399
02:04:45.560 --> 02:04:48.359
you were very, very nice to
that Roman Catholic girl. I wouldn't hit

1400
02:04:48.399 --> 02:04:54.840
it. I wouldn't sensitatient with this. Well, she's called it many times

1401
02:04:54.880 --> 02:05:00.039
and we've had the same kind of
interaction. So she's always nice. I

1402
02:05:00.159 --> 02:05:03.439
try to try to be nice.
Somebody else is nice. Sue's gay.

1403
02:05:03.600 --> 02:05:11.840
What's up, yo, Jakes?
I was wondering, can you hear me?

1404
02:05:11.920 --> 02:05:14.720
First of all? Yeah? Yeah, So is it possible for an

1405
02:05:14.760 --> 02:05:18.319
individual to be a heretic without the
church officially in a like what's that word,

1406
02:05:18.439 --> 02:05:23.880
a hemetizes whatever, whatever it's called, like the church officially condemning him.

1407
02:05:24.520 --> 02:05:29.000
Sure, So it's possible for like, for example, like a scene

1408
02:05:29.079 --> 02:05:31.800
to have heretical beliefs and like let's
say the second century, but the church

1409
02:05:31.960 --> 02:05:36.000
never like officially condemned that scene.
Would he still be a heretic or would

1410
02:05:36.000 --> 02:05:40.840
he not be a heretic until the
church condemns him unless he like goes against

1411
02:05:40.880 --> 02:05:44.399
the Church's teachings at the time.
Right, A heretic is somebody who goes

1412
02:05:44.479 --> 02:05:47.680
against the teachings, right, It's
not somebody who is just wrong. So,

1413
02:05:47.960 --> 02:05:51.199
I mean, many of the church
fathers got things wrong but they're not

1414
02:05:51.319 --> 02:05:58.760
heretics because of just being wrong.
Heresy is a sin of will and obstinacy,

1415
02:05:58.960 --> 02:06:02.199
not just a sin of of knowledge
or lack of knowledge. When you

1416
02:06:02.279 --> 02:06:06.119
say wrong like that includes religious matters. So like if a saint is wrong

1417
02:06:06.199 --> 02:06:11.760
about yes, many saints got theological
things wrong. Sure, yeah, okay,

1418
02:06:12.119 --> 02:06:14.880
And my second question would just be
again as of this week, quick,

1419
02:06:14.920 --> 02:06:17.560
but my second question would just be
like I've heard and I haven't read

1420
02:06:17.600 --> 02:06:21.439
Justin Martin like extensively. I've read
the other Saints a lot, but I've

1421
02:06:21.439 --> 02:06:25.880
heard that Justin Martyr when he's trying
to explain a way like the Theophanes in

1422
02:06:25.920 --> 02:06:30.640
the Old Testament, he gives an
exposition where he explains them through the fact

1423
02:06:30.720 --> 02:06:34.560
that he sees the Son as like
a lesser God than the Father who appears

1424
02:06:34.600 --> 02:06:39.199
in the Old Testament and manifests in
that way. Is that true that he

1425
02:06:39.319 --> 02:06:44.560
holds this type of like subordinationist sort
of theology or trinitarianism. Well, some

1426
02:06:44.680 --> 02:06:48.840
people argue that, but I mean, you can be lesser in different ways,

1427
02:06:49.359 --> 02:06:56.159
and so he could just mean it
in the sense that when Jesus says

1428
02:06:56.359 --> 02:07:01.239
that the Father is greater rights the
Father is greater in roll, not in

1429
02:07:01.399 --> 02:07:06.520
power or in essence. Yeah,
okay. And when you see, like

1430
02:07:08.039 --> 02:07:11.319
when you say the Father is greater
role, where are you thriving that from?

1431
02:07:11.479 --> 02:07:14.479
Is it just from the riches teachings? Or is that from the Bible?

1432
02:07:15.760 --> 02:07:18.039
I mean, do you remember Jesus
saying that the Father is greater than

1433
02:07:18.079 --> 02:07:20.520
I? No? I know,
but I mean in the way that you're

1434
02:07:20.560 --> 02:07:26.079
interpreting that statement. Well, I
mean it right, so that we interpret

1435
02:07:26.159 --> 02:07:32.880
that ray well. The problem is
that the unitarian approach picks one passages passage

1436
02:07:32.920 --> 02:07:38.199
to the exclusion of the other passages, and the presupposition that we have of

1437
02:07:38.840 --> 02:07:45.119
inspiration and holistic theology in terms of
canonical interpretation means that all the verses matter,

1438
02:07:45.199 --> 02:07:47.479
and they all have to be put
together in a coherent way. And

1439
02:07:47.640 --> 02:07:51.039
every heretic picks one verse and says
no, all the other verses have to

1440
02:07:51.119 --> 02:07:56.840
mash up into that verse. Right, So, when Jesus says the Father

1441
02:07:56.960 --> 02:07:59.640
is greater than I, that has
to be balanced with the other statements and

1442
02:07:59.720 --> 02:08:05.039
John on where he says that he
has all the same powers and works as

1443
02:08:05.119 --> 02:08:11.039
the Father, and that the Father
has given everything to the son, right,

1444
02:08:11.199 --> 02:08:13.760
right, Okay, and hold on. But there's there's not just that,

1445
02:08:15.079 --> 02:08:18.000
it's like tons of other texts as
well. For example, the son

1446
02:08:18.279 --> 02:08:22.720
was always in the bosom of the
Father according to John One. Typically the

1447
02:08:22.760 --> 02:08:26.239
holistic approach to the descripture right now, but I'm saying that it's also the

1448
02:08:26.359 --> 02:08:31.279
teaching of the generation of the son, the eternal generation of the son,

1449
02:08:31.479 --> 02:08:37.199
as from John One also informs what
it means to be greater. This is

1450
02:08:37.279 --> 02:08:41.880
called the monarchia of the Father,
like doctor Branson says, Doctor Branson's going

1451
02:08:41.920 --> 02:08:46.199
to be coming on again very soon. Yeah, I've watched a lot of

1452
02:08:46.239 --> 02:08:52.199
his lectures on monarchical for sure.
And yeah, and I'm just wondering,

1453
02:08:52.239 --> 02:08:56.800
like when you take it to like
presuppositionalism, right, and especially on the

1454
02:08:56.840 --> 02:08:58.560
Reformed tradition, but I know you'dots
to use it in that way. But

1455
02:09:00.279 --> 02:09:03.880
like when we argue that, you
know, the Christian God will not we

1456
02:09:03.079 --> 02:09:05.600
with I'm not a Christian, but
like when you argue that the Christian God

1457
02:09:05.720 --> 02:09:11.239
is the necessary precondition for all knowledge, intelligibility, you know, laws of

1458
02:09:11.319 --> 02:09:15.399
logic, physics, et cetera.
Right, would you say, like someone

1459
02:09:15.800 --> 02:09:20.000
like what holds that, Like,
let's say a Muslim or jew using that

1460
02:09:20.279 --> 02:09:24.159
is it because like their God doesn't
have the attribute you know, their God

1461
02:09:24.239 --> 02:09:26.359
is in a trinity, and that's
why he can't be the necessary precondition for

1462
02:09:26.600 --> 02:09:31.760
logic. Correct, there's no records, right, there's no balance of the

1463
02:09:31.880 --> 02:09:35.800
one and the many, there's no
equal ultimacy of the one the many.

1464
02:09:35.880 --> 02:09:39.640
If you scroll back to the beginning
of this live stream tonight, I went

1465
02:09:39.720 --> 02:09:45.199
into great detail and addressing that very
question. Okay, And so your position

1466
02:09:45.239 --> 02:09:50.479
would be that if God isn't at
trinity, then he cannot be the necessary

1467
02:09:50.560 --> 02:09:56.039
precondition for you know, transcendentals,
right, because a strict Unitarian position ends

1468
02:09:56.159 --> 02:10:01.640
up either being a modal collapse or
a kind of you could be like a

1469
02:10:03.000 --> 02:10:07.960
pantheist, or you could be an
emanationist, uh it's gonna fall or adist.

1470
02:10:07.199 --> 02:10:13.239
So I think strict Unitarian systems,
if they're consistent, they'll end up

1471
02:10:13.279 --> 02:10:18.159
in one of those positions. And
those positions are incapable of grounding a world

1472
02:10:18.239 --> 02:10:22.319
view. All right, So if
you could just like elaborate that, like,

1473
02:10:22.359 --> 02:10:24.800
let's say, you know, unitarian, just take the stance that the

1474
02:10:24.920 --> 02:10:28.319
sun and this, like the spirit
isn't like a separate person and the sun,

1475
02:10:28.399 --> 02:10:31.239
it's just created and like you know
zero eight ye or one ad?

1476
02:10:31.079 --> 02:10:37.560
How can Why is it the case
that their world you can't explain transcendentals or

1477
02:10:37.640 --> 02:10:41.279
can't account for them, because,
as I said, one example would be

1478
02:10:41.520 --> 02:10:43.439
that there's not an equal ultimacy to
the one in the many, you would

1479
02:10:43.479 --> 02:10:48.239
have a premisey of an abstract unitarian
or unity. I get, I get

1480
02:10:48.279 --> 02:10:52.000
that's like what they're so, how
would you ground the one? How would

1481
02:10:52.000 --> 02:10:54.880
you ground the many? Yeah?
I don't understand what you mean when you

1482
02:10:54.960 --> 02:10:58.159
say grounding the many? Like why
can't a unit during an interpretation of God?

1483
02:10:58.399 --> 02:11:01.680
Yeah? And so you're not So
what are you? So you said,

1484
02:11:01.720 --> 02:11:03.479
I'm not I'm not a Christian?
What are you? I'm a Muslim?

1485
02:11:05.319 --> 02:11:09.199
Okay, there we go. Now
it's starting to make sense. Okay,

1486
02:11:09.439 --> 02:11:15.079
so yeah, so I want to
like, you're just restating their position,

1487
02:11:15.199 --> 02:11:16.800
Like, okay, their position.
Okay, what do you think it

1488
02:11:16.880 --> 02:11:20.359
means to ground something? Well,
that's that's dependent on the way you're using

1489
02:11:20.399 --> 02:11:24.000
it and what contexts are you saying
ground? Like what do you a lot

1490
02:11:24.000 --> 02:11:26.560
of context? Okay? What do
you think? I mean? I don't

1491
02:11:26.560 --> 02:11:28.279
know what you're thinking. I mean, that's why I'm asking me to be

1492
02:11:28.279 --> 02:11:31.039
elaborate, like, for example,
when you say God grown right, I'm

1493
02:11:31.079 --> 02:11:35.640
on the logic right? What do
I think that to me? Moving on,

1494
02:11:37.479 --> 02:11:50.039
Let's see what's up Harry Littlewood?
What's up Harry? Are there?

1495
02:11:52.119 --> 02:11:56.079
Hello? Yes? Sir? Did
you cut the guy off? I did?

1496
02:12:00.159 --> 02:12:03.000
Hell? Yeah, go ahead,
Yes, I'm hear me. I

1497
02:12:03.079 --> 02:12:20.479
can hear you. Next up,
next, try again in a minute,

1498
02:12:20.880 --> 02:12:31.800
Niktarios, what's up? It's not
unfair, it's ay j So I've dealt,

1499
02:12:31.840 --> 02:12:33.439
We've We've answered these questions a million
times. I'm just not in the

1500
02:12:33.479 --> 02:12:41.279
mood for his for this snickering,
condescending Muslim stuff. What's up? Hey,

1501
02:12:41.439 --> 02:12:45.680
Jay? How are you doing good? What's up? Good? I

1502
02:12:45.760 --> 02:12:48.520
just had a quick U a couple
quick questions the Orthodox. I've been enjoying

1503
02:12:48.560 --> 02:12:52.720
your content for for quite a while
now. I did have a question.

1504
02:12:54.159 --> 02:12:58.119
Obviously, I don't know if you
know about the controversy that's going on between

1505
02:12:58.920 --> 02:13:01.640
Father Peter heres WITHTHDOXI. So that's
not the is that the topic for what

1506
02:13:01.720 --> 02:13:07.079
do you see as the topics today? I know you're debating nothing, it's

1507
02:13:07.079 --> 02:13:09.720
nothing like So it's not that's not
on the topics. That not trying to

1508
02:13:09.720 --> 02:13:13.439
be mean, that's at the beginning. If you bring it on the topics

1509
02:13:13.479 --> 02:13:16.479
and I'm not covering those topics forgiven
that, I'm kind of just ask a

1510
02:13:16.520 --> 02:13:22.000
different question. I'm sure I was
kind of wondering. Some Protestants brought this

1511
02:13:22.119 --> 02:13:24.039
up to me. They have a
different I know, we have the I

1512
02:13:24.159 --> 02:13:26.520
used to be Protestant too. I
used to bring this up by the Seal

1513
02:13:26.560 --> 02:13:31.640
of the Holy Spirit, and they
typically mean that as a cell vific promise.

1514
02:13:31.199 --> 02:13:35.399
How would we Orthodox kind of interpret
the Seal the Holy Spirit? Pauller

1515
02:13:35.520 --> 02:13:46.079
first to it chrismation. Okay,
okay, ahead, I wad to remember

1516
02:13:46.119 --> 02:13:48.399
the whole time verse. I don't
know, It's like somehow they just kind

1517
02:13:48.399 --> 02:13:52.000
of twisted to like a cellvific promise. Well, I mean, chris chrismation

1518
02:13:52.159 --> 02:13:54.439
is part of a cellivific promise.
So I mean, if you look,

1519
02:13:54.520 --> 02:13:58.920
if you go back to we did
a whole lecture on chrismation on sam Shum

1520
02:14:00.279 --> 02:14:09.800
channel ME and FDA, because who
is that goofus vocab Malone tried to say,

1521
02:14:09.880 --> 02:14:13.600
there's no such thing as chrismation.
So we have an entire stream on

1522
02:14:13.720 --> 02:14:20.239
chrismation. Uh. And that's on
Sam Shamun's channel. Okay. And then

1523
02:14:20.439 --> 02:14:24.520
my last question would be there's a
uh, you know, some Protestants will

1524
02:14:24.560 --> 02:14:30.960
bring this up as well, about
the Parraclyses him to the Theo Tocos except

1525
02:14:31.079 --> 02:14:37.159
or are offering old Virgin Dalecos say
that again. I'm sorry, I was

1526
02:14:37.199 --> 02:14:41.560
pulling up a video and it was
the audio I started playing. Apologize.

1527
02:14:43.199 --> 02:14:48.239
Some Protestants will you know kind of
you know, kind of criticize us Orthodox

1528
02:14:48.399 --> 02:14:52.600
for you know, offering this praised
Virgin Mary, but like this hymn from

1529
02:14:52.600 --> 02:15:00.279
the Parraclyses saying except or are offering
old Virgin theo Tocos. How would you

1530
02:15:00.319 --> 02:15:05.800
explain to a Protestant the difference between
offering a praise to the version and compared

1531
02:15:05.840 --> 02:15:09.399
to God in a way. I
know it's veneration worship, but like,

1532
02:15:09.479 --> 02:15:13.680
how do you kind of explain to
a Protestant that way? I mean,

1533
02:15:13.760 --> 02:15:18.359
we just have you scroll back about
maybe thirty forty minutes. I had the

1534
02:15:18.439 --> 02:15:20.560
exact same I'm not trying to be
rude. I'm just saying, like we

1535
02:15:20.600 --> 02:15:26.359
already recovered that about thirty minutes ago. So okay, good questions though,

1536
02:15:26.479 --> 02:15:28.720
Yeah, I mean we have I
think in scripture. You know the examples

1537
02:15:30.399 --> 02:15:33.640
I didn't mention when we talked about
it thirty or forty minutes ago. One

1538
02:15:33.680 --> 02:15:41.079
thing we didn't mention. So if
you are you mad that I'm searching for

1539
02:15:41.239 --> 02:15:43.920
my name because I'm trying to find
the video. To the people that are

1540
02:15:43.920 --> 02:15:50.199
asking why are you searching your own
me, I'm looking for the because every

1541
02:15:50.239 --> 02:15:52.000
time somebody asked a question, I'm
not being rude. It doesn't bother me.

1542
02:15:52.159 --> 02:15:56.640
It's just like we already did it
to our livestream on this three years

1543
02:15:56.640 --> 02:16:05.079
ago. So rather than me rehearsing
the entire thing, one can go look

1544
02:16:05.159 --> 02:16:13.199
at it there. So that was
me and FDA responding to vocab Malone who

1545
02:16:13.239 --> 02:16:16.199
said there's no such thing as chrismation, and so we went through all the

1546
02:16:16.279 --> 02:16:20.199
texts and acts and other places where
we do see chrismation. And so the

1547
02:16:20.279 --> 02:16:24.520
Seal of the Holy Spirit that Paul
talks about, I mean, isn't that

1548
02:16:24.600 --> 02:16:28.920
even in the liturgy when you're christmated, receive this seal seal, receive the

1549
02:16:28.000 --> 02:16:41.520
seal Seal. Oh, And I
was gonna say that, right. So

1550
02:16:41.680 --> 02:16:48.280
obviously in scripture we have a presentation
where we're told to honor God right with

1551
02:16:48.440 --> 02:16:54.239
worship. We all agree on that. But we see in scripture people prostrating

1552
02:16:54.360 --> 02:17:01.159
before Pharaoh. Right, Joseph prostrates
before Pharaoh. People prostrate before Elijah,

1553
02:17:01.440 --> 02:17:05.840
right, Elishah, I think prostrates
before Elijah. Maybe it's name in the

1554
02:17:05.840 --> 02:17:09.559
series, and I forgive. But
there's prostrations, right, So it can't

1555
02:17:09.639 --> 02:17:13.959
just be the external bodily action itself. That is the quote idolatry, because

1556
02:17:13.959 --> 02:17:18.200
the Israelites prostrate before the arc and
the Temple when Solomon dedicates it. Right,

1557
02:17:20.959 --> 02:17:28.799
So there's a level of honoring veneration
that's not the same thing as the

1558
02:17:28.920 --> 02:17:31.760
worship that we give to God.
And you can just go back and read

1559
02:17:31.799 --> 02:17:37.680
the essay that Jerome wrote seventeen hundred
years ago against vigilantheus. So just read

1560
02:17:37.760 --> 02:17:48.600
Jerome's essay. Let's see art of
Taylor. What's up? Art of Taylor?

1561
02:17:52.280 --> 02:17:58.680
Doom and Gloom coming soon? Hey
man, I can hear you,

1562
02:17:58.399 --> 02:18:03.520
Okay, all right, rock and
roll jak. Hey, you're the best.

1563
02:18:03.520 --> 02:18:05.799
You're brilliant. I'm not. I
have a couple of questions for you.

1564
02:18:05.840 --> 02:18:15.079
I used to be a goober Protestant
one thing that I had a question

1565
02:18:15.159 --> 02:18:20.440
of. I'm completely convinced of your
position that orthodox he is true father.

1566
02:18:20.840 --> 02:18:24.600
The Bible does say something to the
effects that, hey, to call no

1567
02:18:24.719 --> 02:18:30.399
man father, because father is we
have a father who's in heaven. Can

1568
02:18:30.440 --> 02:18:37.920
you talk to speak to that just
a minute. Yeah. So you know,

1569
02:18:37.040 --> 02:18:41.680
we're told, for example, to
honor your father and mother. Okay,

1570
02:18:43.399 --> 02:18:46.000
how could I honor my father and
mother if I can't call another person

1571
02:18:46.200 --> 02:18:50.440
on earth father? So it's it's
not literally in the sense of like nobody

1572
02:18:50.520 --> 02:18:56.079
else can be called father. Because
Paul says in his epistles, I am

1573
02:18:56.159 --> 02:18:58.520
your father. In the faith,
he tells that to Timothy, he calls

1574
02:18:58.600 --> 02:19:05.079
himself Timothy's father. There's nothing wrong
with having a spiritual father or a spiritual

1575
02:19:05.120 --> 02:19:11.479
authority and having that title. Jesus
is talking about the tendency that the Pharisees

1576
02:19:11.559 --> 02:19:18.280
had to exclude the direct relationship that
a person has with Father by basically making

1577
02:19:18.360 --> 02:19:22.479
themselves the equivalent of God the Father. So it's a critique of the Pharisaic

1578
02:19:22.680 --> 02:19:28.000
abuse of spiritual authority. It is
not literally saying that the word you can

1579
02:19:28.120 --> 02:19:31.840
never call a person or someone else
father. Otherwise the ten commandments. You

1580
02:19:31.920 --> 02:19:39.200
couldn't honor your father. Michael,
what's up, Michael? Doom and Gloom

1581
02:19:41.040 --> 02:19:46.879
coming soon? Listen to thirty equels, Tom, what's up, Michael?

1582
02:19:52.520 --> 02:20:05.159
Michael? Are you there? Uh? Michael's having a hard time connecting,

1583
02:20:05.520 --> 02:20:09.079
So let's see. Let's trust another
person. Sometimes people, you know,

1584
02:20:09.239 --> 02:20:13.079
it takes a minute for it to
connect. Roscoe Ducks, what's up,

1585
02:20:13.319 --> 02:20:31.520
Roscoe? Roscoe pea cold train.
I'm mute, bro I'm your Roscoe.

1586
02:20:39.520 --> 02:20:48.520
Go ahead, you're on muted,
all right. Roscoe is not gonna talk.

1587
02:20:50.959 --> 02:20:54.959
Kevin, just keeping its simple.
Just Kevin, straight up, Kevin

1588
02:20:54.040 --> 02:21:03.239
right there. None of that frill, none of that fancy frill with the

1589
02:21:03.360 --> 02:21:11.479
last Just Kevin. I mute Kevin. Yo, Jay, I just watched

1590
02:21:11.559 --> 02:21:18.040
your debate with Eric Yarra, and
I think at the end you guys or

1591
02:21:18.159 --> 02:21:26.360
you were talking about the different assumptions
between the Catholics and the Orthodox, the

1592
02:21:26.479 --> 02:21:33.239
different paradigms, and how those paradigms
led to Catholic theology, and I just

1593
02:21:33.319 --> 02:21:37.440
wondering if you could expand on that
and kind of explain that, Yeah,

1594
02:21:37.440 --> 02:21:41.920
it's similar to kind of what I
was arguing in the Trent debate. So

1595
02:21:43.399 --> 02:21:46.639
when we had the Trent Debate about
natural theology. It's kind of an echo

1596
02:21:48.000 --> 02:21:52.399
of what I was trying to convey
to Erica Barr in that debate, because

1597
02:21:54.120 --> 02:22:00.600
one thing I noticed was that the
Roman Catholic classical foundationalist, tomistic evid dentialist

1598
02:22:00.719 --> 02:22:05.079
approach was what Lofton and Nibara kept
kind of putting forward, which is just

1599
02:22:05.200 --> 02:22:09.639
this idea that well, in order
to prove something like the papacy, I

1600
02:22:09.799 --> 02:22:13.879
just stack up all these historical examples
and evidences. And if I have a

1601
02:22:15.000 --> 02:22:20.239
giant enough stack of quote minds and
proofs and citations and it hits the ceiling,

1602
02:22:20.520 --> 02:22:26.680
then clearly the evidence is like you
know, just it's just insurmountably proving,

1603
02:22:26.879 --> 02:22:28.479
you know, Vatican One, If
I if I stack it all up,

1604
02:22:28.600 --> 02:22:33.639
if you give me, give me
three hours to talk in super slow

1605
02:22:33.719 --> 02:22:37.360
motion, to stack up to the
roof all these pile up evidences, then

1606
02:22:37.760 --> 02:22:41.680
then see like maybe Vatican One's kind
of close to what's true or something.

1607
02:22:41.840 --> 02:22:46.600
Right. That's the that's a whole
different approach because of their mindset. And

1608
02:22:46.680 --> 02:22:50.040
what I was trying to convey is
that I already know that Lofton and Nibara

1609
02:22:50.159 --> 02:22:54.360
they don't know anything about TAG.
They don't know anything about transmittal arguments,

1610
02:22:54.399 --> 02:22:56.079
they don't know anything about pre sub
there don't anything about any of that stuff.

1611
02:22:56.600 --> 02:23:01.799
So it was difficult to they to
them, and they've still never gotten

1612
02:23:01.879 --> 02:23:13.559
it that it doesn't like certain it's
certain problems are so systemic that they can

1613
02:23:13.719 --> 02:23:18.600
cancel out the whole system. So, for example, often is always arguing

1614
02:23:18.719 --> 02:23:24.600
that you'll got problems too, Dog, your orthodox you got problems too.

1615
02:23:24.440 --> 02:23:30.239
So while you trying to leave Dog, you got problems too. The argument

1616
02:23:30.319 --> 02:23:35.399
was never you have problems. We
don't. That's so silly. It's a

1617
02:23:35.559 --> 02:23:41.239
question of what are the problems,
And if the problems are so fundamental and

1618
02:23:41.399 --> 02:23:46.440
systemic and at a paradigm level,
then that cancels out the system. So

1619
02:23:46.639 --> 02:23:52.879
if the papacy, for example,
has dogmatically decreed certain things and then later

1620
02:23:52.040 --> 02:23:58.799
contradicted that, that would cancel out
the papal system. In other words,

1621
02:23:58.840 --> 02:24:03.360
it wouldn't matter how many or things
you pile up in an evidential case,

1622
02:24:03.600 --> 02:24:07.120
not saying you can never talk about
evidences. It depends on the nature of

1623
02:24:07.200 --> 02:24:11.440
the thing in question and what you're
debating, and if we're debating at a

1624
02:24:11.479 --> 02:24:18.079
paradigm level, the Roman Catholic system
and how it operates, and if it

1625
02:24:18.200 --> 02:24:22.840
has in fact contradicted in a dogmatic
way, which I argued in that whole

1626
02:24:22.040 --> 02:24:26.360
three hour discussion, that it has
in many places and in many ways.

1627
02:24:26.639 --> 02:24:31.920
And now everyone hopefully can begin to
see this with your boy Francis out here

1628
02:24:33.040 --> 02:24:35.920
saying, I mean, Francis just
helps us out every time there's some kind

1629
02:24:35.959 --> 02:24:39.959
of dispute with the Roman Catholics.
This has been happening for like four years

1630
02:24:41.000 --> 02:24:46.719
straight. Now something comes up,
some big fuor with the Roman Catholics comes

1631
02:24:46.799 --> 02:24:52.319
up, and then Francis immediately this
is so weird, this never happened.

1632
02:24:52.319 --> 02:24:54.680
I mean, it's just it's like
it's meant to be. I'm not literally

1633
02:24:54.760 --> 02:24:58.879
saying Francis watches he didn't give a
crap about what we talk about. What

1634
02:24:58.920 --> 02:25:05.280
I'm saying is it is a weird, providential thing that we always get help

1635
02:25:05.680 --> 02:25:20.120
Francis helps clarify what he meant and
how radically he really meant it. And

1636
02:25:20.959 --> 02:25:26.600
what did he say the other day? Time to change. Too many trad

1637
02:25:26.719 --> 02:25:33.399
cats in the Roman Catholic world in
America who don't want to change, And

1638
02:25:33.479 --> 02:25:37.159
that's what he just said the other
day thank you, Francis you come to

1639
02:25:37.239 --> 02:25:43.879
the rescue, because when the Pope
explainers come to to try to rescue you

1640
02:25:48.479 --> 02:25:54.799
here it is there's a strong US
faction that are backwards and don't want change

1641
02:25:54.840 --> 02:25:56.399
in the Roman caloic Churt. I
mean, how many times can he say

1642
02:25:56.440 --> 02:26:01.520
it to make it clear for all
these goobers, Well, you doesn't mean

1643
02:26:01.639 --> 02:26:03.879
what you think he means. What
he really means is hey, je,

1644
02:26:05.280 --> 02:26:09.680
he don't mean change you. And
then now a Barrow is even having to

1645
02:26:09.680 --> 02:26:13.520
admit, like you know this is
this is hard to do. Yeah,

1646
02:26:13.639 --> 02:26:16.280
that's what I was telling you like
six years ago, Eric, when we

1647
02:26:16.559 --> 02:26:22.120
first started arguing. But I mean, I think Ericabarr just lives and moves

1648
02:26:22.120 --> 02:26:26.239
and talks and thinks in slow motion. I don't think it's his fault.

1649
02:26:26.239 --> 02:26:31.559
I think he just literally lives in
another time space continuum where everything is moving

1650
02:26:31.159 --> 02:26:37.639
at like one fourth speed, like
somebody went into the settings on Erica Barra,

1651
02:26:37.840 --> 02:26:41.319
like in a YouTube video and put
it on point two five speed.

1652
02:26:41.879 --> 02:26:46.239
And Eric has been in that for
like the last six years. So that's

1653
02:26:46.280 --> 02:26:48.520
what's going on. But anyway,
what I was trying to convey it was

1654
02:26:48.600 --> 02:26:54.319
just that you guys are thinking in
a evidentialist, foundationalist way. I'm thinking

1655
02:26:54.399 --> 02:27:01.559
in a presuppositional systematic paradigm way.
And so why would I sit here and

1656
02:27:01.280 --> 02:27:07.600
stack up historical quote minds about the
papacy when the whole thing can just be

1657
02:27:07.760 --> 02:27:11.680
toppled like a house of cards by
pointing out open contradictions. That was the

1658
02:27:11.719 --> 02:27:18.799
point. Appreciate Jake, Thanks,
Yeah, great, great question there.

1659
02:27:18.000 --> 02:27:24.200
I like to elucidate that because it
often is overlooked, especially you know,

1660
02:27:24.639 --> 02:27:31.879
anytime you've seen Loften give replies,
you know, his long winded, unbearable

1661
02:27:31.040 --> 02:27:39.040
videos are basically just saying yoga problems
to look at the EP yo, look

1662
02:27:39.079 --> 02:27:43.479
at the EP though, I's like, who I mean, if the EP

1663
02:27:43.760 --> 02:27:46.879
was a pope, that might be
a good argument. But in the orthodox

1664
02:27:46.000 --> 02:27:52.079
view, you're gonna have EPs be
heretics. So what how does that disprove

1665
02:27:52.120 --> 02:27:58.639
the view? The system doesn't.
So people in the chat, if you're

1666
02:27:58.680 --> 02:28:03.239
talking smack, all you gotta do
is call in. And by the way,

1667
02:28:03.399 --> 02:28:09.360
you don't have to have it's it's
open now to PCs, so you

1668
02:28:09.479 --> 02:28:13.920
can come on in Twitter or x
through the PC. It used to be

1669
02:28:15.040 --> 02:28:18.360
you can only come on spaces from
the app Now you can come on anyway

1670
02:28:18.360 --> 02:28:22.399
you want, So all you gotta
do is hop in. There's the link

1671
02:28:22.520 --> 02:28:26.559
request to speak. You can come
on, make your arguments. You guys

1672
02:28:26.639 --> 02:28:28.319
know the way we do it around
here. Anybody can come on. You

1673
02:28:28.399 --> 02:28:31.600
can make your argument as long as
you want. I didn't feel like rehearsing

1674
02:28:31.719 --> 02:28:35.840
all of the same tag stuff and
the same trap triad stuff with the Muslim

1675
02:28:35.959 --> 02:28:39.559
dude that we just went through about
thirty or forty minutes of at the beginning.

1676
02:28:43.319 --> 02:28:48.239
So statue face, dude, what's
up. I can't see your name.

1677
02:28:48.760 --> 02:28:56.280
Oh my name is Emperorder Philippi's Arabis, which I'm sure some of you

1678
02:28:56.399 --> 02:29:03.520
are aware that that's a Syrian Roman
emperor from the third century. Okay,

1679
02:29:03.600 --> 02:29:07.719
what's up there? I just was
piqued. My interest was piqued by the

1680
02:29:07.840 --> 02:29:11.799
title of this space. I don't
really know what it's all about, and

1681
02:29:11.959 --> 02:29:16.399
I wondered if you could just give
a quick, sure summary of what you're

1682
02:29:16.440 --> 02:29:20.920
doing. Yeah, So I just
usually opened this up to theistic debates on

1683
02:29:20.000 --> 02:29:26.719
the topics of things like church history, Christianity. I defend orthodox Christianity,

1684
02:29:26.799 --> 02:29:31.399
so we usually opened it up to
atheists or Roman Catholics or Protestants, Evangelicals,

1685
02:29:31.760 --> 02:29:37.239
atheo, whoever wants to come on
agnostic and typically we end up arguing

1686
02:29:37.399 --> 02:29:41.639
for topics that relate to you know, philosophy, theology, uh, you

1687
02:29:41.719 --> 02:29:50.200
know, apologetics, that kind of
stuff. And my personal spiritual philosophy is

1688
02:29:50.280 --> 02:30:01.159
probably closest to something like neo Platonism, and I pre aiate the old Pagan

1689
02:30:01.280 --> 02:30:11.440
custom the old Roman Pagan customs of
like ancestor reverence m And my personal viewpoint

1690
02:30:11.479 --> 02:30:16.319
would be, I don't really,
I don't really what would what do you

1691
02:30:16.399 --> 02:30:22.520
think the relevance of Christian doctrine is
to the problems of the modern world,

1692
02:30:22.760 --> 02:30:28.159
Because I'm kind of a lapsed Catholic
and I tried going back to church recently

1693
02:30:28.239 --> 02:30:33.719
and I just did not find any
kind of comfort in what the priest was

1694
02:30:33.319 --> 02:30:39.120
saying. I guess I'll leave at
that. Well. Uh yeah, man,

1695
02:30:39.159 --> 02:30:43.079
I don't blame you for not being
interested in the Roman Gallic world.

1696
02:30:43.159 --> 02:30:48.479
But I believe the Orthodox Church is
the true Church. So I think it

1697
02:30:48.559 --> 02:30:54.680
has the answers to all of men's
hopes, desires, and dilemmas. So

1698
02:30:54.239 --> 02:30:58.239
I think it offers ethics, I
think it offers a meaning. It offers

1699
02:31:01.120 --> 02:31:03.920
communion and union with God. I
mean, I think it offers all those

1700
02:31:03.000 --> 02:31:07.079
things that certainly the modern world not
only lacks, but I mean the modern

1701
02:31:07.120 --> 02:31:13.399
world is really kind of a It
might be a desolate, empty place in

1702
02:31:13.520 --> 02:31:20.280
terms of what it offers as answers
to man's ills. So psychology and humanism

1703
02:31:20.520 --> 02:31:28.239
and transhumanism and you know, all
of these things I think are basically empty

1704
02:31:28.399 --> 02:31:35.360
and in no way can give man
meaning or hope or or ethics or anything

1705
02:31:37.040 --> 02:31:41.479
that's an interesting questions. So you
think ethics has to is something dictated,

1706
02:31:41.680 --> 02:31:48.840
not something that can be sort of
instinctually reasoned from one's own logic. I

1707
02:31:48.879 --> 02:31:54.719
mean, I think that all the
different ethical schools or theories might have some

1708
02:31:56.079 --> 02:31:58.760
truth to them. I mean I
think that you could have. I wouldn't

1709
02:31:58.760 --> 02:32:03.600
bull ethics down to district dictates.
I think there's consequential elements to ethics.

1710
02:32:03.680 --> 02:32:09.120
I think there's normativity and ethics.
I think there's objectivity in ethics. So

1711
02:32:09.200 --> 02:32:18.440
I think there's a lot of different
relevances for different positions in ethics, is

1712
02:32:18.479 --> 02:32:22.399
what I'm trying to say. So
I think the tank commandments are a great

1713
02:32:22.879 --> 02:32:26.559
tool for I mean, I don't
think they're only pragmatic, but I think

1714
02:32:26.559 --> 02:32:30.159
they are. They are pragmatic,
but I wouldn't be just a privatist and

1715
02:32:30.200 --> 02:32:33.120
ethics because I think that the Ten
Commandments works. I also think that it's

1716
02:32:33.159 --> 02:32:41.239
true. Could You often hear people
say that without some sort of explicit spiritual

1717
02:32:41.360 --> 02:32:46.959
doctrine, that people would have no
ethics, which I always find to be

1718
02:32:46.040 --> 02:32:52.879
such an interesting statement because to me, I think that ethics are pretty rational,

1719
02:32:54.159 --> 02:32:56.079
like you can have a rational basis
breath, and you should have like

1720
02:32:56.159 --> 02:33:01.879
you shouldn't just be what you're told
to do. It should be you should

1721
02:33:01.879 --> 02:33:03.479
have good reason for why you want
to do it. Well. I would

1722
02:33:03.559 --> 02:33:07.719
say that maybe a better way to
frame that argument would be that not that

1723
02:33:07.840 --> 02:33:11.719
you can't have any ethics, but
there's not a way to justify the ethics,

1724
02:33:11.879 --> 02:33:16.639
right, So I would say that
philosophy. The way I would argue

1725
02:33:16.680 --> 02:33:20.840
that would be that if you don't
believe in some kind of personal God,

1726
02:33:20.959 --> 02:33:26.360
and there's not a way to have
any epistemic grounding or justification for your ethical

1727
02:33:26.440 --> 02:33:31.319
norms. Yeah, I disagree with
that because I think that the grounding would

1728
02:33:31.360 --> 02:33:35.479
be one's own experience and knowledge of
what causes pain. I guess that's kind

1729
02:33:35.479 --> 02:33:41.639
of a utilitarian viewpoint. But we
all we all experience pain, we all

1730
02:33:41.680 --> 02:33:46.639
experience suffering, we know what we
can know what causes suffering, well but

1731
02:33:46.440 --> 02:33:52.719
directly, okay, But why why
simply because we know what causes pain,

1732
02:33:52.920 --> 02:33:58.520
ought we to choose to not inflict
pain? I mean? And by the

1733
02:33:58.559 --> 02:34:05.559
way, how do we know that
that's the universal experience? Well, I

1734
02:34:05.600 --> 02:34:09.000
guess, how do you know that
there's anything? I mean? Well,

1735
02:34:09.040 --> 02:34:13.559
I mean I would I would give
philosophical argumentation as to how I would know

1736
02:34:13.600 --> 02:34:16.079
those things. But I'm saying,
if you're going to a very like Cartesian

1737
02:34:16.879 --> 02:34:22.319
no kind of argument about you know, no, no, I don't think

1738
02:34:22.920 --> 02:34:26.840
the car has good arguments. I'm
saying, if in your position, based

1739
02:34:26.879 --> 02:34:28.600
on what you just said right there, I would just simply ask you,

1740
02:34:28.840 --> 02:34:31.799
well, how do you know that
that's universal experience? First of all,

1741
02:34:31.920 --> 02:34:35.399
that we all know pain and suffering? I mean maybe we do, maybe

1742
02:34:35.399 --> 02:34:37.719
we don't. How do you know
that? And then I'm asking a separate

1743
02:34:37.799 --> 02:34:41.840
question, which is that why ought
we to choose simply because we know the

1744
02:34:41.319 --> 02:34:46.959
source of pain and suffering, that
we shouldn't inflict pain, or that we

1745
02:34:46.959 --> 02:34:52.120
shouldn't choose pain. Well, obviously
there's times where inflicting pain and suffering are

1746
02:34:52.399 --> 02:34:58.040
merited when it's in self defense.
But I think, okay, but so

1747
02:34:58.479 --> 02:35:01.840
so now we have a qualification and
then you know, but so but why

1748
02:35:01.079 --> 02:35:09.799
like why does self defense the the
qualification there? Because you're you have a

1749
02:35:09.920 --> 02:35:13.360
right to limit your own self?
So where what are where do rights come

1750
02:35:13.440 --> 02:35:20.120
from? I mean I think most
people would Where does I mean I think

1751
02:35:20.200 --> 02:35:22.879
most people would? Well, that's
a fallacy of consensus or appeal to the

1752
02:35:22.920 --> 02:35:28.120
masses. What does most people have
to so what Well, it's any religion

1753
02:35:28.239 --> 02:35:33.479
is also a consensus. You have
to believe that most people don't think I

1754
02:35:33.520 --> 02:35:37.600
don't believe that. What would you
say a religion is? Then how do

1755
02:35:37.639 --> 02:35:41.079
you get people? Because you have
to what would be I mean, I

1756
02:35:41.200 --> 02:35:46.559
just I mean religions have people who
have consensuses consents. I but that doesn't

1757
02:35:46.600 --> 02:35:50.959
have anything to do with whether it's
true or false. I mean you could

1758
02:35:50.000 --> 02:35:58.239
have an everything to do with because
most religions have aren't just about divine punishment.

1759
02:35:58.360 --> 02:36:03.799
They tend they also give dictates for
temporal punishment based on the ethical guidelines

1760
02:36:03.879 --> 02:36:07.040
they set out. So it's not
just that God's going to punish you.

1761
02:36:07.120 --> 02:36:13.159
It's that it gives people the right
to punish other Okay, but that's a

1762
02:36:13.280 --> 02:36:18.920
better, more consistent, coherent grounding
a justification for ethics than what I heard

1763
02:36:18.000 --> 02:36:24.920
you get, which was pain pleasure
and you know consensus. Well, I

1764
02:36:24.120 --> 02:36:31.799
think you think that just arbitrary doctrine
is a better argument for consensus than people

1765
02:36:31.920 --> 02:36:37.200
recognizing that most people probably experience pain
in a similar way. And well,

1766
02:36:37.520 --> 02:36:41.719
why is it arbitrary? I wouldn't
say it's arbitrary. Why is it not

1767
02:36:41.920 --> 02:36:46.760
arbitrary? Who wrote it down?
Who verified it? Well, the argument

1768
02:36:46.799 --> 02:36:50.000
would be that the worldview as a
whole is coherent and consistent and can give

1769
02:36:50.040 --> 02:36:54.520
a justification for things like ethical norms. And what I'm saying is, how

1770
02:36:54.639 --> 02:37:00.760
is it here and inconsistent? Who
decided that? It's not a It's not

1771
02:37:00.879 --> 02:37:05.159
an authority decision, it's an objective
principle, or it's an objective argument about

1772
02:37:05.280 --> 02:37:09.319
the worldview as a whole. So
I'm saying that the Christian worldview gives an

1773
02:37:09.319 --> 02:37:15.200
account for those things. And there's
a basis in that worldview for why there

1774
02:37:15.399 --> 02:37:20.479
is universality to ethics, or why
there's universals at all, And I'm saying,

1775
02:37:20.360 --> 02:37:26.920
take take the doctrine of Christianity as
a fact, but what about people

1776
02:37:26.959 --> 02:37:31.040
who don't take the doctrine of Christianity? But that has nothing to do with

1777
02:37:31.120 --> 02:37:33.440
the argument it's being true or false. So you keep appealing to things that

1778
02:37:33.479 --> 02:37:37.600
are kind of irrelevant to the argumentation. So I'm not trying to be rude.

1779
02:37:37.639 --> 02:37:41.120
I'm just saying that, what do
you mean what that's that's a fallacy

1780
02:37:41.159 --> 02:37:45.559
of irrelevance. However many people agree
or disagree, has nothing to do with

1781
02:37:45.840 --> 02:37:50.000
the truth or falsity of the argument. I mean, if I if I

1782
02:37:50.120 --> 02:37:54.120
pulled a bunch if I pulled a
bunch of people who said that they don't

1783
02:37:54.120 --> 02:37:56.319
think you exist, what it does
have anything to do with the truth or

1784
02:37:56.360 --> 02:38:01.879
falsity of whether you exist? Of
course not no, But if you're trying

1785
02:38:01.959 --> 02:38:05.920
to create a universal ethical standard that
you want to hold other people to,

1786
02:38:05.559 --> 02:38:11.959
not just yourself, than the truth
of it, well, the consensus of

1787
02:38:13.000 --> 02:38:16.040
the people again has nothing to do
That's a fallacy of consensus, has nothing

1788
02:38:16.120 --> 02:38:20.040
to do with whether it's true or
false. I guess what would be the

1789
02:38:20.200 --> 02:38:26.760
reason that you would believe a doctrine
handed down to you is has greater truth,

1790
02:38:26.040 --> 02:38:37.000
and yeah, just greater truth than
using your own logic to reach a

1791
02:38:37.120 --> 02:38:43.959
conclusion about what is good, because
my logic itself has to appeal to some

1792
02:38:45.280 --> 02:38:50.760
kind of universal logic for it to
be coherent and consistent, and that requires

1793
02:38:50.879 --> 02:38:54.520
some kind of omniscient divine mind and
I don't have that, but God does.

1794
02:38:54.840 --> 02:38:58.159
So that makes sense. But how
do you How are you certain that

1795
02:38:58.319 --> 02:39:03.719
the doctrine that was handed down to
you comes from God? Well, there's

1796
02:39:03.760 --> 02:39:07.399
different ways I could go about checking
to see if that's the case. If

1797
02:39:07.440 --> 02:39:13.120
you're asking for like evidence is one
evidence would be that the Old Testament,

1798
02:39:13.239 --> 02:39:18.360
for example, has probably one or
two hundred Messianic prophecies that are specific about

1799
02:39:18.440 --> 02:39:22.959
the time, date, and life
of the Messiah. So that's one evidence

1800
02:39:22.040 --> 02:39:26.840
that's super strong, predicting you know, when he would come, what he

1801
02:39:26.879 --> 02:39:28.600
would do, he would die,
et cetera. So that's that's in that

1802
02:39:28.680 --> 02:39:31.680
kind of a self fulfilling prophecy.
If I say someone's going to come and

1803
02:39:31.760 --> 02:39:35.239
then someone says they're the person at
the right time, when you already said

1804
02:39:35.239 --> 02:39:37.879
there was supposed to be a person
who was going to come, it's not

1805
02:39:39.000 --> 02:39:43.200
just again, it's like hundreds of
prophecies that that note, where would be

1806
02:39:43.319 --> 02:39:48.200
born, under what empire, what
would happen in his life, the destruction

1807
02:39:48.239 --> 02:39:50.200
of the temple, that he would
die if he put to death, that

1808
02:39:50.239 --> 02:39:54.600
he would be a son of David. I mean that there's it's hyper specificity.

1809
02:39:54.639 --> 02:39:58.840
It's not just somebody will It's not
like nosredamis, like, there'll be

1810
02:39:58.879 --> 02:40:01.799
a dude and he'll do this.
No, it's hyper specific. How do

1811
02:40:01.879 --> 02:40:07.120
you even how do you even know
that the Old Testament is consistent across time

1812
02:40:07.479 --> 02:40:13.559
for the prophecies you're laying out.
Well, the irony is that people knew

1813
02:40:13.600 --> 02:40:16.600
that. The irony is that even
if I believe that it is, and

1814
02:40:16.680 --> 02:40:20.879
that's a doctrine of faith, sure, But the irony is that even even

1815
02:40:22.000 --> 02:40:26.360
liberal scholars will admit that the like
the Book of Daniel, for example,

1816
02:40:26.440 --> 02:40:28.799
it's at least two centuries prior to
the coming of the Messiah, and it

1817
02:40:28.920 --> 02:40:33.000
predicts the empire under the which the
Messia would die. And then Daniel seven

1818
02:40:33.040 --> 02:40:37.079
it says that the temple will be
destroyed, it says that it says that

1819
02:40:37.479 --> 02:40:43.520
he would be killed. So I
mean, are you certain that Daniel has

1820
02:40:43.600 --> 02:40:48.479
been consistent across time, but also
how what level of specificity it does say

1821
02:40:48.559 --> 02:40:56.120
specifically the Roman Empire and Daniel Daniel
lists the empire after the empire that he

1822
02:40:56.239 --> 02:41:01.920
lived under, which was the Greeks, So yes, well that could be

1823
02:41:03.000 --> 02:41:07.040
any empire. And the Greeks weren't
really even an empire, yes they were.

1824
02:41:07.399 --> 02:41:11.360
They were an empire under Alexander the
Great. And then you can have

1825
02:41:11.440 --> 02:41:16.840
you read the Maccabe's, really the
Greeks per se, that's the Hellenistic empires.

1826
02:41:16.879 --> 02:41:18.680
You know it would have been like
so Alexander doesn't. Okay, So

1827
02:41:18.760 --> 02:41:22.680
if you read the book of Maccabe's, it's considered in that text to be

1828
02:41:22.760 --> 02:41:30.239
the Greek Empire. So even if
it's not the equivalent, it's called they're

1829
02:41:30.319 --> 02:41:33.319
called the Greeks in the text.
So whether you take issue with the terminology,

1830
02:41:33.440 --> 02:41:37.159
that's fine. I'm just saying that
the terminology of Daniel nine is very

1831
02:41:37.200 --> 02:41:43.360
specific about when he would come,
what would happen and under the empire following

1832
02:41:43.440 --> 02:41:46.440
the empire of Daniel's day, And
I'm just saying it doesn't matter how liberal

1833
02:41:46.520 --> 02:41:52.319
you find the scholarship. They all
agree that Daniel's written prior to the coming

1834
02:41:52.360 --> 02:41:56.159
of Jesus and that's at least two
centuries prior to that. So I mean

1835
02:41:56.200 --> 02:42:00.879
you so you have hold on so
you you have a lot of like responses.

1836
02:42:00.959 --> 02:42:03.559
But I don't detect that you even
know anything about this topic, which

1837
02:42:03.639 --> 02:42:07.840
is fine. I'm not I'm not
expecting you too necessarily, but I mean

1838
02:42:07.879 --> 02:42:13.600
I would I would think that if
you wanted to rebut something like Messianic prophecies,

1839
02:42:13.639 --> 02:42:16.319
you would know that. I mean, it's not just some guy,

1840
02:42:16.440 --> 02:42:18.840
so there'll be a dude coming into
future, right you would you would at

1841
02:42:18.920 --> 02:42:24.760
least know something about, uh,
you know, the historicity of the Book

1842
02:42:24.799 --> 02:42:28.959
of Isaiah for example, or like
Isaiah's widely attested to in the Dead Sea

1843
02:42:28.959 --> 02:42:33.159
Scrolls for example. So are you
familiar with the Book of Isaiah. The

1844
02:42:33.319 --> 02:42:35.920
point isn't to debate what my point
anyways, Well, you asked me for

1845
02:42:37.159 --> 02:42:41.600
evidences of why I would trust those
books, and I'm giving you various texts,

1846
02:42:41.120 --> 02:42:45.600
and I'm not detecting that. The
point isn't that you have explaining.

1847
02:42:45.760 --> 02:42:48.879
The point isn't that you have doctrinal
explanations. The point is that you are

1848
02:42:50.200 --> 02:42:52.319
appealing to your own reason. Well, you asked me, but you asked

1849
02:42:52.360 --> 02:42:56.879
me what you asked, it's not
my own reasoning. My reasoning is a

1850
02:42:56.959 --> 02:43:00.760
faculty. It's a that's a here
a lot of people who you can't so

1851
02:43:00.879 --> 02:43:05.079
you can't distinguish between the principles themselves
and the faculty of reasoning. So I

1852
02:43:05.159 --> 02:43:07.799
have a faculty of reasoning. But
you asked me for why I believe those

1853
02:43:07.879 --> 02:43:11.879
things, and I'm giving you the
answers. So you might not like those

1854
02:43:11.280 --> 02:43:18.399
your reasons for why you believe those
things any different than my my own empirical,

1855
02:43:18.520 --> 02:43:22.239
logical reasons, because I don't think
you can give an account for knowledge

1856
02:43:22.280 --> 02:43:24.879
at all if you're an empiricist,
How can you give an account for how

1857
02:43:24.920 --> 02:43:31.520
are you an empiricist if you're a
neoplatonist. I don't understand that question of

1858
02:43:31.559 --> 02:43:37.840
the entire right. Let's move on. Let's see Vanessa. What's up,

1859
02:43:37.959 --> 02:43:54.200
Vanessa? Go ahead, Vanessa?
Oh wait, maybe I didn't hit the

1860
02:43:54.280 --> 02:44:03.040
button right, can you hear me? Yeah? Go ahead, Okay,

1861
02:44:03.200 --> 02:44:07.719
Yeah. So I just jumped on
a while back ago and I was looking

1862
02:44:07.760 --> 02:44:11.719
at the title I appreciate your time
on the space, and given some theological

1863
02:44:11.840 --> 02:44:20.319
knowledge, I had a question about
I know you have the different religions and

1864
02:44:20.440 --> 02:44:24.000
the topic I've had this thing.
It's not a thing, but I see

1865
02:44:24.000 --> 02:44:28.719
a lot of visions and it's too
much for me sometimes, and I was

1866
02:44:28.799 --> 02:44:33.559
wondering out of all those religions,
which maybe text I could probably read to

1867
02:44:33.639 --> 02:44:39.959
better lead me. I am cost
but I see things, so you know

1868
02:44:41.360 --> 02:44:45.360
weather phenomenology. Sorry, so that
that's called delusion. So you need to

1869
02:44:45.440 --> 02:44:50.440
read the Orthodox Study Bible and stop
following the visions and delusions. American man,

1870
02:44:50.639 --> 02:44:54.840
what's up? American man? Stay
away from me? He I kind

1871
02:44:54.879 --> 02:45:01.520
of like this sunglass or glasses,
only I feel like scynth wavers. So

1872
02:45:01.639 --> 02:45:07.200
I feel like I'm like night call
over here is Travinsky's night call. I'm

1873
02:45:07.319 --> 02:45:16.120
giving you a night call to refuture
dumb arguments. I wear my nerd glasses

1874
02:45:16.239 --> 02:45:22.000
at night, so I can't,
so I can't refute the dumb arguments from

1875
02:45:22.159 --> 02:45:31.319
the people. Oh well, my
my lesbian internet glasses at night, so

1876
02:45:31.760 --> 02:45:39.319
I can't. So I can't see
anything because the new Internet it's not working

1877
02:45:39.440 --> 02:45:43.120
right. So no, the light
went out because I don't have my normal

1878
02:45:43.239 --> 02:45:46.360
lighting. We couldn't have fit it
in moving it down here, so I

1879
02:45:46.440 --> 02:45:48.479
gotta buy any lights. What's up? Matter? You were you at I'm

1880
02:45:48.559 --> 02:45:54.239
new dude. Man, we got
some we got some rough arguments tonight.

1881
02:45:54.399 --> 02:45:58.079
Boys. It's a challenge. Maybe
I should have let that Muslim. I

1882
02:45:58.079 --> 02:46:00.799
should have let that Muslim do talk, because I probably would have. That

1883
02:46:00.799 --> 02:46:03.360
would have been a better conversation that
Muslim. Dude, if you're in here,

1884
02:46:03.399 --> 02:46:07.440
you want to come back and you
want to rehearse the whole Trinity thing,

1885
02:46:07.520 --> 02:46:11.760
we can because we're getting wild in
here. Now. Well here's the

1886
02:46:11.840 --> 02:46:15.159
problem. Here's the problem with Muslims. And I'm actually I wouldn't say I'm

1887
02:46:15.840 --> 02:46:18.799
Catholic or Protestant, but I'm well, maybe I'm fitted into that sort of

1888
02:46:20.200 --> 02:46:24.159
line of Christianity. I grew up. I grew up going to Methodist Church.

1889
02:46:24.120 --> 02:46:26.680
Uh you know, I was confirmed, I was baptizing the Methodist Church.

1890
02:46:28.120 --> 02:46:31.000
So I don't know if that's in
that line again of specifically for what

1891
02:46:31.639 --> 02:46:35.079
Claire is supposed to be clarified or
for what is supposed to be titled as

1892
02:46:35.120 --> 02:46:41.719
a Protestant sort of Christian. But
that's what counts Protestant, Yes it would.

1893
02:46:41.840 --> 02:46:46.280
My My problem is with Muslims,
you know, and a lot of

1894
02:46:46.399 --> 02:46:50.959
their books are parts of the Quran
can have been debunked. I've actually can

1895
02:46:50.040 --> 02:46:54.799
prove this out of YouTube. I
posted it about a day or two ago,

1896
02:46:56.719 --> 02:46:58.120
so we've had a whole bunch of
Muslim debates. So I mean,

1897
02:46:58.399 --> 02:47:01.840
I'm not if it, But what's
your topic? What do you want to

1898
02:47:01.879 --> 02:47:07.360
get to? Well? I think
what would need to what I would like

1899
02:47:07.520 --> 02:47:15.440
to see is that the Catholics and
a lot of the Christians, even myself

1900
02:47:15.559 --> 02:47:20.520
and my own sort of denomination or
sect of Christianity. I think we need

1901
02:47:20.600 --> 02:47:24.840
to look into a bit more of
why there are pages and texts missing out

1902
02:47:24.879 --> 02:47:31.559
of the Bible that would have in
the Bible. All right, this is

1903
02:47:31.639 --> 02:47:35.440
getting crazy. Where's the now?
I want the Muslim dude back? Are

1904
02:47:35.479 --> 02:47:37.920
you in here? Muslim? Please
come bay? This is getting ridiculous.

1905
02:47:41.159 --> 02:47:52.280
Did we try? Did Roscoe?
I want to try again? Where my

1906
02:47:52.559 --> 02:47:58.079
songlasses that? He yes, sah? What's up? Can you hear me?

1907
02:47:58.559 --> 02:48:03.680
Yep? Hey j I found some
of your work very helpful, and

1908
02:48:03.760 --> 02:48:11.280
I'm actually reading your book on meta
narratives right now, and your work has

1909
02:48:11.319 --> 02:48:13.319
been very helpful for me in the
in term that kind of human a.

1910
02:48:16.239 --> 02:48:22.360
But even when I was Protestant,
I was I was looking into Messianic prophecies,

1911
02:48:22.840 --> 02:48:26.879
and I wanted to get your take
on one in particular. Maybe if

1912
02:48:26.879 --> 02:48:31.639
you want to suggest me some additional
literature to read uspool on this topic.

1913
02:48:31.040 --> 02:48:39.479
Okay, which one the Damael seventy
weeks prophecy? Okay? Yeah, so

1914
02:48:39.079 --> 02:48:46.479
I believe that's it predicts the exact
year on which Jesus died. I want

1915
02:48:46.479 --> 02:48:50.319
to know what your interpretation of that
would be, and I know it's a

1916
02:48:50.440 --> 02:48:58.040
very convoluted text to interpret. So
yeah, Uh, well, I think

1917
02:48:58.079 --> 02:49:01.600
there's if you read in the Orthodox
Study by Will, they actually have a

1918
02:49:01.680 --> 02:49:09.200
really good note going back to like
Ezra and Nehemiah about possible rulers which in

1919
02:49:09.520 --> 02:49:11.799
the building of the wall, which
could have been in the beginning of that

1920
02:49:11.520 --> 02:49:16.639
period. So I'm flexible and open
to different possibilities or I don't have like

1921
02:49:16.760 --> 02:49:20.520
some dogmatic position. But do you
know what I'm talking about? Do you

1922
02:49:20.559 --> 02:49:24.680
have Orthodox Study by h Yeah,
I've read that particular section. I'm aware

1923
02:49:24.719 --> 02:49:28.520
of some of the starting dates for
what people place the four hundred and ninety

1924
02:49:28.600 --> 02:49:33.799
years on the one in Forst.
Ezra chapter seven. So do you have

1925
02:49:33.959 --> 02:49:39.600
do you take issue with that or
something or what? Well? Uh,

1926
02:49:39.000 --> 02:49:43.879
the question that I wanted to post
to you. Is the traditional interpretation from

1927
02:49:43.920 --> 02:49:48.959
what I've read in specifically Saint aff
Nations, some of the some of the

1928
02:49:48.040 --> 02:49:54.239
other Fathers. It predicts the it
predicts the year that he uh starts his

1929
02:49:54.399 --> 02:49:58.760
ministry, so like in h so
like in the twenty seven eighty. But

1930
02:49:58.840 --> 02:50:01.719
I believe it's particularly about his death. Would that be issue aromatic for you?

1931
02:50:05.719 --> 02:50:09.000
Uh? No, I don't have
any hard position on this, okay.

1932
02:50:11.079 --> 02:50:16.000
And do you think that this is
anything useful for apologizes? I mean,

1933
02:50:16.399 --> 02:50:20.239
are you wanting me to check out
something like a specific person that you

1934
02:50:20.319 --> 02:50:24.840
think is really good on this or
something or like, I'm just not familiar

1935
02:50:24.920 --> 02:50:30.319
with the specific argument that you're saying. I'm just asking if you think because

1936
02:50:30.680 --> 02:50:33.120
because I mean, if it does
predict the exact year that Jesus died,

1937
02:50:33.239 --> 02:50:37.799
yeah, I mean that's a pretty
good that's pretty good evidence yet, right,

1938
02:50:37.280 --> 02:50:41.559
So would you would you pose this
as an evidence for Jesus says the

1939
02:50:41.639 --> 02:50:46.360
design? I mean, yeah,
I think that even if I don't know

1940
02:50:46.479 --> 02:50:50.360
the exact date per se, I've
always thought this is one of the strongest

1941
02:50:50.399 --> 02:50:58.239
past pastors, even the Jews do, right, So what what do you

1942
02:50:58.360 --> 02:51:01.920
what is it you want me to
check out. I didn't want you to

1943
02:51:03.000 --> 02:51:05.680
check out anything particular. I'm just
wondering if there's any sort of like flexibility

1944
02:51:07.120 --> 02:51:09.680
or if you had a particularly like
Well, you sound like you have an

1945
02:51:09.799 --> 02:51:16.440
argument as to like who we need
to look to has this position? Or

1946
02:51:16.520 --> 02:51:18.959
is it something that you studied out, which is fine, I don't.

1947
02:51:18.000 --> 02:51:22.559
I think it's possible that you could
have studied and come to that. Yeah.

1948
02:51:22.639 --> 02:51:24.959
No, I have studied this a
little bit. Uh, and I've

1949
02:51:26.000 --> 02:51:28.680
come to my own conclusion. I'm
just I'm just asking if you have a

1950
02:51:30.399 --> 02:51:33.639
particular interpretation of this. No,
I do not have any hard I do

1951
02:51:33.719 --> 02:51:37.600
not have a right. No,
I don't. I don't have any hard

1952
02:51:37.760 --> 02:51:43.840
answers on this. And my second
question would be, is there any literature

1953
02:51:43.879 --> 02:51:54.239
that you would suggest on the subject
of Messianic prophises? M Actually, that's

1954
02:51:54.239 --> 02:51:56.000
a good question. I don't actually
know what a good book on that is.

1955
02:51:56.479 --> 02:52:00.159
You would think there would be there
probably is, but I'm I mean

1956
02:52:00.680 --> 02:52:03.319
Sam Shamooner and I've done just a
bunch of podcasts on it, but I

1957
02:52:03.399 --> 02:52:07.760
don't actually know of one book that
covers up. One reason for that,

1958
02:52:07.879 --> 02:52:13.600
too, is that your theology like
your ecclesiology and all that. That's also

1959
02:52:13.719 --> 02:52:18.600
going to affect what you consider messianic
prophecies. So, for example, no

1960
02:52:20.120 --> 02:52:24.440
evangelicals or dispensationalists, for example,
will ever grasp or understand all of the

1961
02:52:24.719 --> 02:52:31.440
Old Testament predictions of the Gentile church
as fulfilled in the first coming of the

1962
02:52:31.479 --> 02:52:35.920
Messiah, and therefore they lose all
of those proof texts as well, you

1963
02:52:37.040 --> 02:52:39.760
see, because they don't believe that
the Messiah said up the kingdom and that

1964
02:52:39.840 --> 02:52:45.000
the Gentiles coming into the Church is
a fulfillment of all of those passages and

1965
02:52:45.040 --> 02:52:48.600
the Psalms and in Isaiah and Ezekiel. So you know, kind of how

1966
02:52:48.719 --> 02:52:56.680
we what our presuppositions are about theology
also, unfortunately will kind of impact because

1967
02:52:56.760 --> 02:53:00.879
like if you look up Messianic prophecies
fulfilled in cry it's usually you're going to

1968
02:53:00.959 --> 02:53:05.760
get like Protestant evangelical takes that only
focus on, you know, like the

1969
02:53:05.879 --> 02:53:11.760
specifics of Jesus being killed in Isaiah
fifty three and you know, which is

1970
02:53:11.840 --> 02:53:15.520
fine, but there's actually like hundreds
more. So you see what I'm saying,

1971
02:53:15.719 --> 02:53:18.200
right, Yeah, I know,
I mean Protestants tend to go to

1972
02:53:18.360 --> 02:53:24.959
like the specific Psalm twenty two exactly, those kinds of like very caleeringly obvious

1973
02:53:26.840 --> 02:53:31.000
passages, but tend to overlook the
repology that's offered a fuel housement because they

1974
02:53:31.000 --> 02:53:33.680
don't really have a framework through which
they can interpret them exactly. And all

1975
02:53:33.760 --> 02:53:39.239
of the Theophanes as well, because
many of those Theophanes also have a typological

1976
02:53:39.360 --> 02:53:43.799
import as well. Right, Okay, Yeah, good questions. I wish

1977
02:53:43.799 --> 02:53:48.719
I had a better answer on exactly
Daniel nine, you have, like any

1978
02:53:50.040 --> 02:53:58.879
maybe literature on proving Christianity from the
outset of maybe Judaism. Well, I

1979
02:54:00.120 --> 02:54:05.680
mean, I'm gonna do a talk
on the Jewish texts that I've been reading

1980
02:54:05.799 --> 02:54:09.639
that I read for the Daniel debate. So I mean, I would say

1981
02:54:11.479 --> 02:54:13.520
it's it's they're not interested in proving
Christianity, but the irony is that it

1982
02:54:13.760 --> 02:54:18.840
points in that direction. So I
would just say, look at Peter Schaeffer's

1983
02:54:18.879 --> 02:54:24.719
little book on he just focuses on
Daniel and the Son of Man texts.

1984
02:54:26.959 --> 02:54:28.000
I forget the name of that book, but I think, I think,

1985
02:54:28.040 --> 02:54:31.920
I think if you if you watch
my Daniel Pikachu debate, in the first

1986
02:54:31.959 --> 02:54:35.799
fifteen minutes, I signed a bunch
of these so get the Schaeffer book,

1987
02:54:37.280 --> 02:54:41.079
Get the Summer book on Bodies of
God in Ancient Israel. That one's really

1988
02:54:41.159 --> 02:54:46.879
good. And even though they're not
specifically about Messianic prophecies, they're basically admitting

1989
02:54:48.200 --> 02:54:50.520
that the Old Testament is full.
If they often these are full, it's

1990
02:54:50.639 --> 02:54:58.639
basically essence interistinction. There's multiplicity in
God in the Old Testament. Those two

1991
02:54:58.680 --> 02:55:01.600
books are really good. All right, thank you for the answer. Having

1992
02:55:01.680 --> 02:55:07.120
that stake help bless Yeah, good
questions. Yeah, I don't know that

1993
02:55:07.879 --> 02:55:11.799
you should have said, what the
who do you think the ruler is?

1994
02:55:11.920 --> 02:55:20.479
That would give it like an exact
date. Uh, let's see Christian logos.

1995
02:55:20.559 --> 02:55:30.600
What's up? Mean? Hey can
hear me? M hm? Yeah.

1996
02:55:30.959 --> 02:55:33.760
So I just got done taking your
History of Philosophy course, which was

1997
02:55:35.600 --> 02:55:39.040
freaking awesome. Yeah, dude,
it was really good. Now taking that,

1998
02:55:39.879 --> 02:55:43.639
taking that alongside the Wheaton College course
too, because they have theirs up

1999
02:55:43.680 --> 02:55:48.319
on YouTube, and I liked yours
a lot better. Oh yeah, but

2000
02:55:48.520 --> 02:55:52.079
that's what I'm talking about. Yeah, I mean, there's goes into a

2001
02:55:52.159 --> 02:55:56.479
lot more. Do they have like
ninety lecture series? Yours was really cool

2002
02:55:56.479 --> 02:56:00.280
because because it was very condensed,
so it just kind of helped kind of

2003
02:56:00.280 --> 02:56:03.360
put everything together, and I just
wanted to clear up some questions I had

2004
02:56:03.399 --> 02:56:07.200
on that because I got it past
the Q and A portions, so I

2005
02:56:07.319 --> 02:56:11.040
wasn't able to like ask you directly
during that, right, Sure, so,

2006
02:56:11.239 --> 02:56:18.360
do you see it as really an
argument continuing from Plato's kind of innate

2007
02:56:18.479 --> 02:56:24.360
ideas is deductive reasoning in through Aristotles
and then just this kind of like bouncing

2008
02:56:24.440 --> 02:56:31.040
back and forth between those two logical
positions up through history. Are you talking

2009
02:56:31.040 --> 02:56:35.920
about because I was kind of classifying
the history of Western philosophy as dialectics.

2010
02:56:35.000 --> 02:56:39.159
Is that what you're saying? Yeah, And like some sense, and I've

2011
02:56:39.200 --> 02:56:41.399
heard a lot of people say before, like the history of philosophy is basically

2012
02:56:41.520 --> 02:56:46.399
just the arguments continued between Plato and
Aristotle aside either two. You know,

2013
02:56:46.799 --> 02:56:50.239
do you kind of see it in
between that? And if so, what

2014
02:56:50.520 --> 02:56:58.079
specifically in Christianity really links these two
together, Well, the rejection of dialectics,

2015
02:56:58.159 --> 02:57:03.719
so christ entity doesn't favor Let's talk
about some of the commonalities between Plato

2016
02:57:03.719 --> 02:57:09.520
and Aristotle in terms of Hellenic dialectics. We would have the idea that there's

2017
02:57:09.559 --> 02:57:16.799
a premiscy given to unity over multiplicity. There's a ontological premiscy given to eternality

2018
02:57:16.879 --> 02:57:22.319
over time, there's a premiscy giving
to stasis as opposed to movement and change,

2019
02:57:22.079 --> 02:57:26.239
and that would be common about the
Aerosotle and Plato, and so the

2020
02:57:26.440 --> 02:57:33.399
ontologically diminished status of the world is
actually cashed out as opposites right at least

2021
02:57:33.440 --> 02:57:37.920
in But God is not the opposite
of the world. Creation is not the

2022
02:57:37.040 --> 02:57:43.200
opposite of eternity. Time is not
the opposite of eternity. Change not the

2023
02:57:43.280 --> 02:57:48.239
opposite of stasis. And so Orthodoxy
says, because of the doctrine of creation,

2024
02:57:48.959 --> 02:57:54.600
the world is good. It's not
a thing to flee from. Christ

2025
02:57:54.639 --> 02:57:58.319
affirm the goodness of the world when
he took on matter in the incarnation and

2026
02:57:58.479 --> 02:58:01.120
also when he created it. By
the way, would why would God create

2027
02:58:01.239 --> 02:58:05.920
if it's evil? But you know
the fact that in the Hellenic presentation there's

2028
02:58:05.920 --> 02:58:09.440
no doctrine of creation, so there's
no creator creature distinction. There's no distinction

2029
02:58:09.520 --> 02:58:15.600
between the create and the uncreated.
So there's already the inability, due to

2030
02:58:15.959 --> 02:58:22.959
Hellenic philosophy and metaphysics, to overcome
the dialectical oppositions between one in many and

2031
02:58:24.120 --> 02:58:28.239
created and uncreated, et cetera.
So what I was trying to argue is

2032
02:58:28.319 --> 02:58:35.520
that Christian philosophy and metaphysics that results
from the doctrine of the trinity and creation

2033
02:58:35.799 --> 02:58:39.600
and the whole narrative of Christianity and
so forth the goodness of history. For

2034
02:58:39.680 --> 02:58:43.319
example, right, Christian christ becoming
incarnate is an affirmation of the goodness of

2035
02:58:43.360 --> 02:58:46.760
history. History is not bad,
it's not evil, it's not something to

2036
02:58:46.799 --> 02:58:50.959
flee from, right right. And
I think it's really important here too,

2037
02:58:50.040 --> 02:58:54.600
the russmannion paper where he shows that
there has to be like this relevant or

2038
02:58:54.760 --> 02:58:58.959
revelation factor two man sure as well, or else he's kind of just trapped

2039
02:59:00.079 --> 02:59:01.879
in between the mind and material world. But that does make a lot of

2040
02:59:01.959 --> 02:59:05.719
sense too, because you know,
in Plato and Aristotle they don't have this

2041
02:59:07.000 --> 02:59:11.319
revelation, so they're kind of just
extrabolating from their own minds correct whether it's

2042
02:59:11.440 --> 02:59:16.520
whether it's deductive or inductive. And
then human history, you know, honestly,

2043
02:59:16.639 --> 02:59:20.280
just probably out of pride and arrogance, just doesn't want to accept that

2044
02:59:20.600 --> 02:59:26.200
revelation too. Man of really looking
up to a god first before starting these

2045
02:59:26.239 --> 02:59:31.040
philosophic projects. Yeah, I think
in both Aristotle and Plato, you know,

2046
02:59:31.200 --> 02:59:35.120
for all of their good points in
their insights, the sonauticon of Orthodoxy

2047
02:59:35.159 --> 02:59:43.840
eventually condemns Aristotelianism and Platonism because they're
autonomous human rational system building projects, and

2048
02:59:45.840 --> 02:59:50.479
those those are doomed to fail because
they don't take into account not just divine

2049
02:59:50.559 --> 02:59:54.879
revelation, but also the fall.
And the doctrine of the fall is necessary

2050
02:59:56.000 --> 03:00:03.440
as part of how we understand man's
inability incapacity for the fullness of understanding,

2051
03:00:03.959 --> 03:00:07.440
man's not going to be able to
properly interpret the natural world, for example,

2052
03:00:07.920 --> 03:00:11.120
without understanding that this world's actually a
fallen world, and it's not fallen

2053
03:00:11.239 --> 03:00:18.959
because of some metaphysical principle. It's
fallen due to ethics. When when Adam

2054
03:00:18.079 --> 03:00:24.639
sin it was a moral problem.
The moral problem then resulted in metaphysical change,

2055
03:00:24.040 --> 03:00:31.280
you know, chaos, disintegration,
all that. But but man's problem

2056
03:00:31.399 --> 03:00:35.840
is not metaphysics or a metaphysical issue. Man's problem is moral, and that's

2057
03:00:35.920 --> 03:00:39.879
why people don't like Christianity for the
most part the world. You know,

2058
03:00:39.920 --> 03:00:43.120
what is used to say in John
three, right, the darkness does not

2059
03:00:43.280 --> 03:00:48.280
come to the light because it's deeds
would be exposed, and so people don't

2060
03:00:48.360 --> 03:00:52.000
want to change and when they realize
that Christianity is actually about that, it's

2061
03:00:52.079 --> 03:00:58.159
not sitting around and you know,
meditating about ultimate unity and metaphysical you know,

2062
03:00:58.399 --> 03:01:03.319
speculation. That's not what it's ultimately
about. Yeah, and without the

2063
03:01:03.600 --> 03:01:07.079
doctrine of the fall too, I
see there being an issue logically if you're

2064
03:01:07.159 --> 03:01:11.479
if you're taking on a project like
Plato Aristotle were trying to figure out between

2065
03:01:11.760 --> 03:01:16.319
God evil and kind of being forced
into a dualistic which eventually is it just

2066
03:01:16.520 --> 03:01:20.319
a monistic position as well, because
don't those kind of just kind of bounce

2067
03:01:20.399 --> 03:01:24.680
back and forth if you don't have
this doctrine of the fall and stuff to

2068
03:01:26.040 --> 03:01:28.440
really set that distinction away from God. Yeah, of course, yeah,

2069
03:01:30.360 --> 03:01:35.639
okay, yeah, okay, yeah, great, Yeah, thank you,

2070
03:01:35.719 --> 03:01:39.559
and I appreciate you taking the course, really, thank you for those kind

2071
03:01:39.639 --> 03:01:41.760
words. And for those that are
interested, that course is always available.

2072
03:01:41.840 --> 03:01:46.760
I put the link in the chat
there. You can get over at Richard

2073
03:01:46.799 --> 03:01:50.680
Groves Autonomy a world marketplace right there, University of Reason, and it ends

2074
03:01:50.760 --> 03:01:54.680
up being I think over thirty hours
if you count all the Q and A

2075
03:01:54.600 --> 03:02:01.520
twelve different lectures of history Western philosophy
there. I don't know father Deacon enough

2076
03:02:01.559 --> 03:02:03.639
you wanted to speak, you popped
off. Maybe you're not where you can

2077
03:02:03.680 --> 03:02:07.440
speak. If you do want to
speak, you can. You're welcome to

2078
03:02:09.680 --> 03:02:28.760
hop on here. Let's see Loewen
Howard. What's up, dude. Yeah,

2079
03:02:28.760 --> 03:02:31.520
I didn't say the fall was only
morals. I said that morals are

2080
03:02:31.559 --> 03:02:37.719
the essence of the fall. Adam
morally transgressed. Then that resulted in all

2081
03:02:37.760 --> 03:02:46.440
the all the all the metaphysical problems. Go ahead. Did you want to

2082
03:02:46.479 --> 03:02:52.040
say something something? Hello? Can
you? Hey? Jay? I'm a

2083
03:02:52.200 --> 03:02:58.559
with Orthodox Christian and your work has
been tremendously influential on me and helps kind

2084
03:02:58.600 --> 03:03:05.760
of bring me to the church.
I had a question about cessationism and continuate

2085
03:03:05.000 --> 03:03:13.799
continuationism. Where does the Orthodox Church
fall on that issue? Well, if

2086
03:03:13.840 --> 03:03:16.920
you by a cessation, if you
can you mute, it's echoing, dude.

2087
03:03:20.200 --> 03:03:24.440
If a cessation you mean ceasing of
all miracles. Of course we do

2088
03:03:24.600 --> 03:03:31.479
believe in miracles. If you mean
by the ceasing of like new divine revelations

2089
03:03:31.600 --> 03:03:35.280
that are like part of scripture or
something like that. Now, I believe

2090
03:03:35.360 --> 03:03:41.239
that divine revelation was complete when John
the Apostle died, and thus, as

2091
03:03:41.280 --> 03:03:45.440
scripture says, the deposit of faith
was once for all delivered to the saints.

2092
03:03:45.959 --> 03:03:48.319
So if it's once for all delivered
as a deposit, you can't have

2093
03:03:48.440 --> 03:03:52.840
new deposits. And so ecumenical councils
are not new divine revelations. They're just

2094
03:03:54.000 --> 03:04:00.159
the Church explicating and with more precision, explaining what was already there. So

2095
03:04:00.360 --> 03:04:05.520
contrary to the Roman Catholic idea of
like doctrinal development evolution, we don't believe

2096
03:04:05.600 --> 03:04:07.680
that. We think that the faith
was once for all delivered. Everything that

2097
03:04:07.760 --> 03:04:13.559
was necessary in the first and second
century is still here, is still still

2098
03:04:13.680 --> 03:04:18.879
the same. There's no new dogmas, even icons and even Mary. All

2099
03:04:18.920 --> 03:04:24.639
of that's very early. Maybe not
every dispute and every explication was early,

2100
03:04:24.280 --> 03:04:33.559
but the essence of that faith is
unchanged and no different. Okay, thank

2101
03:04:33.639 --> 03:04:39.159
you very much. That's that's helpful. Did you mean by cessation, ceasing

2102
03:04:39.239 --> 03:04:46.079
of all miracles or ceasing of new
divine public revelation, ceasing of new divine

2103
03:04:46.280 --> 03:04:50.399
revelation? Yeah. You know,
I have a lot of Protestant friends,

2104
03:04:50.479 --> 03:04:56.559
and they will oftentimes question me as
to how I'm able to know that the

2105
03:04:58.280 --> 03:05:01.799
the cannon is complete. If it's
if it's the ecumenical councils that right,

2106
03:05:05.000 --> 03:05:09.719
that ratify or that that affirm the
canon. What's stopping us from having another

2107
03:05:09.760 --> 03:05:16.200
ecumenical council that this sort of thing. Well, every ecumenical council begins the

2108
03:05:16.319 --> 03:05:22.079
council, if you notice, especially
like Trullo and the side of council with

2109
03:05:22.280 --> 03:05:28.159
saying that we intend to follow everything
in the previous council. So that's pretty

2110
03:05:28.239 --> 03:05:33.559
much the norm. So you couldn't
have a new ecumenical council that says,

2111
03:05:33.680 --> 03:05:37.000
oh, yeah, the previous council
they give us the Canada scriptures wrong.

2112
03:05:37.719 --> 03:05:43.120
And so for the Orthodox Church,
the Canada scripture that you find in the

2113
03:05:43.399 --> 03:05:48.120
synods of Carthage, which are pretty
prevalent in the West. The Latins have

2114
03:05:48.399 --> 03:05:54.399
their own synods under Pope Damesis Augustine
et cetera, where they affirmed the same

2115
03:05:54.559 --> 03:06:03.000
Carthaginian canon. Basically, it's Trolo
that affirms the Carthage cannon, and then

2116
03:06:03.639 --> 03:06:09.840
Trullo is reaffirmed in six and seven
for US, so six and seven reaffirm

2117
03:06:09.399 --> 03:06:18.079
Trullo, which affirms Carthage, which
has the Dooter cannon. Okay, and

2118
03:06:18.159 --> 03:06:22.600
that that would be seventy nine books. Right. Uh, that sounds right,

2119
03:06:24.760 --> 03:06:28.879
Okay. I mean I feel like
there's some controversy, like there's a

2120
03:06:28.000 --> 03:06:37.239
third Maccabee's that some jurisdiction. Can
you meete exactly exactly? Yeah, I

2121
03:06:37.280 --> 03:06:43.120
mean it's in the Orthodox Study Bible
for example. There Maccabees is there.

2122
03:06:43.760 --> 03:06:48.239
And you know, for us having
the cannon, like we don't have to

2123
03:06:48.319 --> 03:06:52.360
have like a soul scripture Protestant mindset
about it. So it's okay if like

2124
03:06:52.479 --> 03:06:56.360
a you know, Slavonic cannon stuck
the Book of Unich in there, or

2125
03:06:56.440 --> 03:06:58.520
a collection stuck the Book of Unich
in there, because for us, it's

2126
03:06:58.559 --> 03:07:03.200
okay that there's flexibility for that,
Like you can have trade because we don't.

2127
03:07:03.239 --> 03:07:09.040
We're not sold scripture. You can
have tradition outside the scriptures. So

2128
03:07:09.159 --> 03:07:11.639
it's not that big of a deal
if like if you look at John Damascus'

2129
03:07:11.799 --> 03:07:18.719
list for example, even as Lady
John John Damascus he thinks the absolute cannons

2130
03:07:18.760 --> 03:07:24.719
and the letters of Clement are part
of scripture. So there's flexibility even up

2131
03:07:24.799 --> 03:07:28.360
into that period in terms of what
actually quote is the cannon. And so

2132
03:07:28.600 --> 03:07:33.159
when we say the cannon of Scripture, Allah Ecumenical Council. That's just what's

2133
03:07:33.200 --> 03:07:39.280
normative for us. Doesn't mean that
there's not elements of flexibility with Third Maccabees

2134
03:07:39.600 --> 03:07:46.040
or even the Book of Munich and
some Slavonic vials. Okay, that's great,

2135
03:07:46.079 --> 03:07:52.319
thanks for your time, Jay.
Yeah, good points. Yeah.

2136
03:07:52.319 --> 03:07:54.520
I mean, you know, we're
not a Bible only church, so it's

2137
03:07:54.559 --> 03:07:58.399
not a problem for us that there's
a little bit of flexibility on some of

2138
03:07:58.479 --> 03:08:03.200
that. And I mean, to
me, it doesn't It doesn't bother me

2139
03:08:03.239 --> 03:08:05.799
that the Book of Enick is in
there, because I mean, Jews cites

2140
03:08:05.840 --> 03:08:11.440
the Book of Enix, so it's
just another attestation to literature, you know,

2141
03:08:11.520 --> 03:08:13.920
pointing to the Messiah. Doesn't mean
that the Book of Enick has to

2142
03:08:13.959 --> 03:08:18.239
have the exact same level of you
know, authority as the Gospels or something

2143
03:08:18.280 --> 03:08:22.799
like that, because even in the
Orthodox Church we honor the Gospels above even

2144
03:08:22.879 --> 03:08:26.399
Paul's epistles. That doesn't mean that
Paul's epistles are oh you think they're false.

2145
03:08:26.559 --> 03:08:31.040
No, it's not an either or
it's a both in but there's still

2146
03:08:31.120 --> 03:08:37.360
there's still levels too, even within
scripture, and even Paul's epistles have levels

2147
03:08:37.440 --> 03:08:41.120
within them. For example, Paul
says one of his letters this, I

2148
03:08:41.319 --> 03:08:43.760
say not of the Holy Spirit,
but I give my own opinion, and

2149
03:08:43.840 --> 03:08:48.280
so Paul distinguishes there even what's in
his letter from the Holy Spirit. So

2150
03:08:50.760 --> 03:08:52.879
that does not mean that we're saying, oh, the by errors, Bob's

2151
03:08:52.879 --> 03:08:58.200
full errors. No, I'm not
saying that bed safe again. And then

2152
03:08:58.200 --> 03:09:01.719
I'm getting tired, so I'm gonna
have to call it a night after this.

2153
03:09:01.799 --> 03:09:09.680
Go ahead. Hey, Jake,
have you investigated the Dead Sea Scrolls

2154
03:09:11.000 --> 03:09:16.520
possibly being a forgery? I am
familiar with one or two of the supposed

2155
03:09:16.920 --> 03:09:22.000
scrolls or texts being actual forgeries,
and so I certainly hold that it's possible

2156
03:09:22.079 --> 03:09:26.760
that the Dead Sea Scrolls were a
forgery. They could have been forged for

2157
03:09:26.879 --> 03:09:31.879
various geopolitical reasons. Some people theorize
that I don't know for sure, but

2158
03:09:31.040 --> 03:09:35.840
if they are authentic, then they
do ad tests to the Book of Isaiah.

2159
03:09:35.799 --> 03:09:39.879
If they're not, my faith doesn't
rest on the discovery that Dead Sea

2160
03:09:39.920 --> 03:09:43.360
scrolls. Yeah, I've heard you
say that. The one thing I was

2161
03:09:43.440 --> 03:09:50.959
wondering is what would the Dead Sea
Scrolls implicate in terms of like the one

2162
03:09:50.079 --> 03:09:54.360
world government type thing, Like,
are they adjusting something that's an Old Testament

2163
03:09:54.559 --> 03:09:58.760
or you know, the Abrahamic faiths
would be able to agree on something where

2164
03:09:58.799 --> 03:10:03.479
like the Dead Sea Scrolls Refactor,
you know, the Old Testament in such

2165
03:10:03.520 --> 03:10:09.760
a way that changes all the theolog
Well, I mean we we already have,

2166
03:10:09.760 --> 03:10:16.440
you know, ancient, preserved,
authoritative, normative text in the Orthodox

2167
03:10:16.559 --> 03:10:18.520
Church. So it's not gonna it's
not gonna do anything to us unless a

2168
03:10:18.559 --> 03:10:24.479
bunch of clerics are compromised and you
know, cave into something or whatever.

2169
03:10:24.559 --> 03:10:28.680
Yeah, it's some deception, Yeah, I mean, there could be conceivably

2170
03:10:28.719 --> 03:10:33.479
some deception where like you know,
Elaine Pagels and bart Ermine and uh,

2171
03:10:33.600 --> 03:10:37.000
you know, Bartholome you get together
and say say, oh, we've decided

2172
03:10:37.120 --> 03:10:41.719
that these these newly discovered texts,
you know, let's say that there's the

2173
03:10:41.760 --> 03:10:46.520
Dead Sea Scrolls Part two and these
these newly discovered texts actually correct all of

2174
03:10:46.600 --> 03:10:52.680
our misunderstandings about you know, we
already I mean that that wouldn't fly,

2175
03:10:52.200 --> 03:10:58.239
you know for most Orthodox people certainly, But there's not something already pre existing

2176
03:10:58.360 --> 03:11:01.920
in the Dead Sea Scrolls right now
that doing something like that that it's such

2177
03:11:01.959 --> 03:11:07.840
you know, I don't know that's
actually I mean, I'm not a textual

2178
03:11:07.920 --> 03:11:09.639
scholar, so I don't know enough
about. I mean, I've read a

2179
03:11:09.680 --> 03:11:13.079
little bit on the Dead Sea Scrolls, but I don't know enough about Like

2180
03:11:13.920 --> 03:11:20.000
I mean, isn't there aren't there
texts that are supposedly what they think were

2181
03:11:24.040 --> 03:11:26.440
Who's the Who's the Zelic group?
That's some people say John the Baptist is

2182
03:11:26.479 --> 03:11:30.840
supposed to leave. I don't believe
this, But what's that Zelic group that

2183
03:11:30.959 --> 03:11:35.920
they think John the Baptist was part
of? Those? Uh, like the

2184
03:11:37.200 --> 03:11:39.879
Jewish version of monks? You know
I'm talking about? Yeah, I do.

2185
03:11:41.479 --> 03:11:43.959
I'm going to blank just just because
I have no clue about the name.

2186
03:11:45.000 --> 03:11:48.239
But I know about the theory the
scenes. I'm trying to think that

2187
03:11:48.360 --> 03:11:52.559
the scenes. Right, So aren't
there some texts in uh Dead Sea Scrolls

2188
03:11:52.559 --> 03:11:56.760
if I recall that relate to supposedly
the scenes? I mean, I'm just

2189
03:11:56.799 --> 03:12:01.639
going from memory. So so and
I think that people say people try to

2190
03:12:01.680 --> 03:12:05.000
make an argument that oh and ironically, this is actually an old Masonic argument.

2191
03:12:05.040 --> 03:12:11.239
If you read man Manly P.
Hall's Secret Teaching, he was trying

2192
03:12:11.239 --> 03:12:16.239
to argue a long time ago that
oh Jesus was actually secretly an s scene

2193
03:12:16.280 --> 03:12:20.159
and he was initiated into the mysteries
through the scenes, and he was actually

2194
03:12:20.239 --> 03:12:24.600
some sort of gnostic magician. Yeah, no, that's it. John the

2195
03:12:24.639 --> 03:12:28.559
Baptist is actually the Gnostic that's it. Yeah, and that's that's why,

2196
03:12:28.639 --> 03:12:33.959
that's why the Masons have a really
high reverence for John the Baptists, that

2197
03:12:33.200 --> 03:12:39.479
they think he was in a scene
who initiated Jesus or whatever. But I

2198
03:12:39.079 --> 03:12:45.360
think I'm right about that. I
might be getting documents mixed up. I

2199
03:12:45.399 --> 03:12:46.680
don't know, look into it.
If there's something there, it could be,

2200
03:12:48.079 --> 03:12:50.399
you know, a nice video to
look into. Anyway, that was

2201
03:12:50.479 --> 03:12:54.840
my question. Thanks. Let's see
if the Dead Sea Scrolls did. Yes,

2202
03:12:54.959 --> 03:12:58.760
the S scenes and the Dead Sea
Scrolls, so supposedly the some of

2203
03:12:58.799 --> 03:13:07.639
the Dead Sea Scrolls had these texts
that we're supposedly attesting to the scenes,

2204
03:13:07.000 --> 03:13:13.360
and let's see, they gained fame
in modern times as a result of the

2205
03:13:13.479 --> 03:13:18.079
discovery the Dead Sea Scrolls. So
yeah, I'm right about that. But

2206
03:13:18.319 --> 03:13:26.680
I'm not a textual scholar, so
I can't speak with much authority on these

2207
03:13:26.719 --> 03:13:33.280
topics. But we can all cite
the experts, can't We cite the experts.

2208
03:13:35.159 --> 03:13:37.600
We'll go to one more because I'm
getting really tired. I read,

2209
03:13:37.680 --> 03:13:48.360
We'll read the super Jazz Ryan.
What's up, dude? Why had this

2210
03:13:48.520 --> 03:13:52.520
powder? Canst? Ryan? Are
you there? I'm mute, man,

2211
03:13:58.120 --> 03:14:03.159
you gotta I'm mute, dude.
All right, well all right here,

2212
03:14:05.479 --> 03:14:11.799
what's up? I mean, uh, we're talking about this biblical stuff and

2213
03:14:11.920 --> 03:14:16.159
all this and all that. I
mean, I love I love it,

2214
03:14:16.920 --> 03:14:24.840
but dealing with today, like what's
going on right now? Do you not

2215
03:14:26.159 --> 03:14:33.040
feel like like some things are coming
to an end? What do you mean?

2216
03:14:35.000 --> 03:14:39.520
What I mean is like I feel
like we have right now, we

2217
03:14:39.639 --> 03:14:46.520
have kind of like, uh,
a false prophet in office. We have

2218
03:14:46.479 --> 03:14:54.559
uh who francis? We don't know? No, no, Joe Biden obviously.

2219
03:14:54.440 --> 03:14:58.000
All right, well I'm not trying
me, but we're all right.

2220
03:14:58.040 --> 03:15:13.200
So tonight's topic are not about Joe
Biden. Then, last call was you

2221
03:15:13.239 --> 03:15:18.719
gotta I meet man? Hello?
Yeah, what's up? Do hey?

2222
03:15:20.120 --> 03:15:24.760
Uh? I was hoping to ask
an exogetical question the calvint The Calvinists really

2223
03:15:24.879 --> 03:15:31.200
use John six and John ten as
their main like go twos. I think

2224
03:15:31.239 --> 03:15:35.879
when they're talking about, you know, on conditional election and perscuence of the

2225
03:15:35.920 --> 03:15:41.760
Saints some of those things. And
generally I think, like I'm pretty solid

2226
03:15:41.840 --> 03:15:45.920
on some of the uh, you
know, responses to the Calvinist understanding of

2227
03:15:46.040 --> 03:15:50.040
Romans and stuff like this, because
that's very mainstream and apologetics. But the

2228
03:15:50.559 --> 03:15:54.399
as far as the Johanni literature goes, is there books you'd recommend, and

2229
03:15:54.440 --> 03:15:58.360
then if you can maybe spend like
five minutes or still in those two passages

2230
03:15:58.680 --> 03:16:07.239
that helpful. You want to spend
five minutes on what John six and John

2231
03:16:07.319 --> 03:16:09.920
ten in regard to what the drawing
I will draw, what about ways I'll

2232
03:16:09.959 --> 03:16:13.920
draw all the men to myself.
I mean, you mean all of those

2233
03:16:13.000 --> 03:16:18.399
passages. So let me say first
of all that we lectured through the entire

2234
03:16:18.600 --> 03:16:22.559
gospel John, so you can go
watch my lectures that go through the entire

2235
03:16:22.639 --> 03:16:30.840
Gospel. But the thing with this
is that we don't just get our christology

2236
03:16:30.959 --> 03:16:37.159
or our steriology from abstracting it from
those texts. So I'm not trying to

2237
03:16:37.520 --> 03:16:41.879
diverge from or not go into the
apologetics or the exegesis of John six and

2238
03:16:41.959 --> 03:16:45.040
John ten. I'm just saying that, like I've already we already did like

2239
03:16:45.079 --> 03:16:48.600
a lecture the entirety of John,
So I would say, watched those if

2240
03:16:48.639 --> 03:16:52.760
you want the full exegesis. But
I mean, there's so many passages for

2241
03:16:52.840 --> 03:17:01.000
example, that intertwine within those chapters
with the universality of Rice message that too

2242
03:17:01.159 --> 03:17:05.879
then only restricted to Oh, but
he's only going to draw the ones that

2243
03:17:05.920 --> 03:17:09.280
he secretly actually likes. Right,
So it's true that the apostles were chosen

2244
03:17:09.319 --> 03:17:13.639
before the foundation of the world.
Yeah, and even Judas was chosen,

2245
03:17:13.799 --> 03:17:18.280
and Jesus says it'd been better he'd
never been born. But none of those

2246
03:17:18.319 --> 03:17:22.200
passages negate synergism. And that's the
problem with Calvinism is that Calvinism is premised

2247
03:17:22.319 --> 03:17:26.719
on God being well, there's different
problems. One problem is God is the

2248
03:17:26.799 --> 03:17:33.360
immediate direct cause of all events via
the divine decree, and we don't believe

2249
03:17:33.399 --> 03:17:35.000
that is orthodox. We think that
God permits evil, but he's not the

2250
03:17:35.040 --> 03:17:43.280
direct immediate cause of evil. So
there is secondary causes that really have causal

2251
03:17:43.360 --> 03:17:48.079
power. Now I know that Calvin
gave verbal credence to secondary causes, but

2252
03:17:48.239 --> 03:17:52.479
the problem is that secondary causes means
that those beings have their own energy and

2253
03:17:52.559 --> 03:17:56.840
will, and so if you have
your own energy, that means that there's

2254
03:17:56.879 --> 03:18:03.000
it's impossible that you can ever not
have synergy because human will and human energy

2255
03:18:05.000 --> 03:18:07.159
is fundamental to having human nature,
and this is what comes out of the

2256
03:18:07.200 --> 03:18:13.159
ecumenical counsels when it comes to Christology. And so to have a sateriology that

2257
03:18:13.360 --> 03:18:20.399
dispenses with anthropology and Christology, to
say then that God's will and energy replaces

2258
03:18:20.639 --> 03:18:28.440
my human will and energy is number
one. To not have secondary causes in

2259
03:18:28.600 --> 03:18:31.559
fact, even though Calvin has them
in theory. And also it is to

2260
03:18:33.040 --> 03:18:37.360
violate the principle of human nature,
which is that nature has its own will

2261
03:18:37.399 --> 03:18:41.639
and power and energy. And so
if you remove those things, then it's

2262
03:18:41.719 --> 03:18:46.120
no longer synergy. It's monarchism.
And that's why Calvinists or monarchists. But

2263
03:18:46.440 --> 03:18:50.600
if you read the Disputation with Purists, by the way, it's actually multiple

2264
03:18:50.719 --> 03:18:58.520
passages where in the Gospels that Maximus
ends up debating with Puris. So if

2265
03:18:58.559 --> 03:19:01.319
you read the disputation of Piis,
I'll say that'd be a good place for

2266
03:19:01.360 --> 03:19:05.040
you to start, because he will
actually actually get a bunch of passages that

2267
03:19:05.120 --> 03:19:09.280
demonstrate the Christ is submitting his human
will and energy to the divine will and

2268
03:19:09.440 --> 03:19:15.280
energy to please the Father, particularly
the uh you know, let this cup

2269
03:19:15.319 --> 03:19:18.639
pass from e text. The debate
becomes focused on that. And the reason

2270
03:19:18.719 --> 03:19:24.200
that is relevant to the Calvinist position
is that Calvinism ends up squishing human persons

2271
03:19:24.280 --> 03:19:31.159
into nature, such that human persons
no longer have the natural faculty of willing

2272
03:19:31.239 --> 03:19:35.239
and energy to synergize in the process
of conversion. Now, how do I

2273
03:19:35.360 --> 03:19:39.440
know it's synergism. Yes, Calvinism
reduced it to occasionals. That's what I'm

2274
03:19:39.479 --> 03:19:45.520
arguing with Theodore. Well, it's
it's not synergism anymore because, for example,

2275
03:19:46.479 --> 03:19:50.040
every time Paul the New Testament's talking
about baptism, the Calvinist has to

2276
03:19:50.159 --> 03:19:56.000
divorce it from the right of baptism. But why doesn't Paul divorce it throughout

2277
03:19:56.079 --> 03:20:00.760
the passages consistently, especially Toddis three, where he says he calls the baptism

2278
03:20:00.840 --> 03:20:03.840
the washing of the labor regeneration.
Now, Paul says there's one Lord,

2279
03:20:03.920 --> 03:20:07.360
one faith, and one baptism,
but every Calvinist says, no, there's

2280
03:20:07.399 --> 03:20:13.079
not. There's two. There's regeneration, which is the spiritual baptism, and

2281
03:20:13.120 --> 03:20:16.440
then there's water baptism, which is
this separate thing. But all throughout the

2282
03:20:16.479 --> 03:20:20.799
New Testament, those things are always
joined. So this is principle of synergism

2283
03:20:20.000 --> 03:20:26.360
is always there, especially in sacramentology. And that point about baptismal regeneration itself

2284
03:20:26.479 --> 03:20:33.959
refutes the Calvinist notions from John six
and John ten that irresistible grace is what's

2285
03:20:33.959 --> 03:20:39.239
absolutely necessary to achieve regeneration and that
there's no willing on your part. You

2286
03:20:39.319 --> 03:20:43.040
don't synergize and regeneration. That's just
simply false. Jesus even calls faith a

2287
03:20:43.159 --> 03:20:46.920
work. This is the work of
God that you believe on Him and me

2288
03:20:46.040 --> 03:20:50.360
is sent and we have no problem
saying that faith is a gift. But

2289
03:20:50.479 --> 03:20:56.440
it's still not the case that you
never have the synergy of your will.

2290
03:20:56.159 --> 03:21:03.719
But Calvinists regeneration theology is helt on
the idea that your quote spiritually dead and

2291
03:21:03.879 --> 03:21:07.520
so you do not have the ability
to will the good, and so they

2292
03:21:07.600 --> 03:21:13.719
also don't have any distinction between natural
goods and supernatural goods. That's part of

2293
03:21:13.799 --> 03:21:16.079
Christology. That's also part of what
Palamus teaches, right, that there's a

2294
03:21:16.120 --> 03:21:22.159
distinction between nature and SuperNature. That's
how we have theosis. So all of

2295
03:21:22.239 --> 03:21:28.239
these points are lost in Calvinism because
Calvinism doesn't have correct anthropology. Calvinism actually

2296
03:21:28.319 --> 03:21:33.920
has Pallagian anthropology. And you say, wait a minute, that's impossible.

2297
03:21:33.959 --> 03:21:39.520
How could you get what That's crazy? Calvin has Pallagius's doctrine of prelapsarian man

2298
03:21:41.520 --> 03:21:48.040
because both Pallagius and Calvin fought and
taught that Adam could have merited his salvation.

2299
03:21:50.760 --> 03:21:56.719
Ergo, it's a Pallagian doctrine of
prelapsarian man. Now we're after the

2300
03:21:56.799 --> 03:22:01.079
fall, We're in this hopeless position
to where there's no ability to will or

2301
03:22:01.639 --> 03:22:05.879
to energize at all. And yet
we're told in Romans that God either accuses

2302
03:22:07.000 --> 03:22:11.639
or excuses the Pagans when they do
what's right. Well, if you believe

2303
03:22:11.680 --> 03:22:15.559
and told to pravity, how is
God excusing pagans who do right? That

2304
03:22:15.639 --> 03:22:20.440
doesn't exist. Furthermore, why does
the Bible talk so much about righteous people

2305
03:22:20.600 --> 03:22:30.479
like Elizabeth and her husband being perfect
and righteous before the Lord, and it

2306
03:22:30.600 --> 03:22:33.399
talks about the works that they did. Why how is David able to say,

2307
03:22:35.360 --> 03:22:37.719
Lord, you know my heart,
I have not sinned before you.

2308
03:22:37.920 --> 03:22:41.040
I have done what is right.
You see, there's all these songs,

2309
03:22:41.079 --> 03:22:43.840
there's all these plays. You start
noticing all these examples that if I was

2310
03:22:43.879 --> 03:22:46.399
a Calvinist, how can I say
that? How is that possible? How

2311
03:22:46.440 --> 03:22:50.479
can David write that as a Calvinist? You see how none of these things

2312
03:22:50.559 --> 03:22:56.000
makes sense? Well, it does
make sense though, if the Calvinist paradigm

2313
03:22:56.159 --> 03:23:03.520
is just simply not correct. Yeah, that's hopeful. And I'll read that

2314
03:23:05.040 --> 03:23:07.840
disputation with purists. And then do
you have to remember the titles for those

2315
03:23:07.920 --> 03:23:11.639
lectures? You guys? Did you
just t Yeah? If you just type

2316
03:23:11.719 --> 03:23:18.200
in Jay Dyer Gospel of John,
you'll start noticing. I wish I could

2317
03:23:18.239 --> 03:23:20.440
make it into a whole playlists,
but I mean maybe I can, But

2318
03:23:20.639 --> 03:23:22.760
like I think there's a limit on
how many playlists you can put on your

2319
03:23:22.799 --> 03:23:28.479
homepage. Let's see if you just
type in Jadar Gospel of John. Let's

2320
03:23:28.479 --> 03:23:37.200
see how many we get when we
do that. It looks like they all

2321
03:23:37.239 --> 03:23:41.440
come right up. So there's at
least five or six or seven that come

2322
03:23:41.520 --> 03:23:46.239
up. Okay. And then I
heard you some people in the stream talking

2323
03:23:46.239 --> 03:23:52.719
about Daniel and I know the generally
the Christian interpretation, you know, the

2324
03:23:52.959 --> 03:24:00.399
with the twin or ninety years or
you know this this terminates in the Coming

2325
03:24:00.440 --> 03:24:05.879
of Christ. And I've spent some
time reading some stuff on Daniel though,

2326
03:24:05.159 --> 03:24:09.520
and you know, the liberals,
like obviously they dated to the mid second

2327
03:24:09.600 --> 03:24:15.200
century BC. And the reasoning for
that is really it's presuppositional. It's like

2328
03:24:15.319 --> 03:24:18.639
they presupposed that there can't be real
prophecy, and so then they go find

2329
03:24:18.680 --> 03:24:22.040
the propheties and then they put it
like the year before that. Yeah,

2330
03:24:22.079 --> 03:24:24.680
but it's still predicts it still predicts
him being born in the next Empire,

2331
03:24:24.760 --> 03:24:28.120
which is ironic. I'm just saying
that they didn't even do good enough in

2332
03:24:28.239 --> 03:24:33.879
de blinking too. They missed the
fact that it still says that he would

2333
03:24:33.879 --> 03:24:39.680
be born in the second in the
final Empire, which is the empire after

2334
03:24:39.360 --> 03:24:43.440
the Greeks. Do you understand?
Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah,

2335
03:24:43.520 --> 03:24:48.440
yeah, I'm gonna say though,
I think that I've actually found some

2336
03:24:48.639 --> 03:24:52.680
of their ex of Jesus to be
pretty convincing, even if I wouldn't agree

2337
03:24:52.719 --> 03:24:54.959
that it's ex post facto, like
I would still say Daniel road Daniel,

2338
03:24:56.360 --> 03:24:58.760
but like, for instance, with
the four beasts that come out of the

2339
03:24:58.760 --> 03:25:01.959
earth, right, like these are
all future to Daniel, and they're all

2340
03:25:01.959 --> 03:25:07.079
contemporaneous, and so I think you
can see them as the four kingdoms that

2341
03:25:07.200 --> 03:25:13.239
come out of the the empire that
was going over Alexander the Great. See

2342
03:25:13.239 --> 03:25:16.000
if you got like the Sluke kids, the Tolemse I never give the two

2343
03:25:16.000 --> 03:25:20.639
others, and then really the Slucan
empires through them you get Antiochists who kind

2344
03:25:20.680 --> 03:25:24.559
of fulfills that typology of the Eighth
and stuff like this. Yeah, I

2345
03:25:24.639 --> 03:25:30.879
think back like Daniel Aida, I
think Daniel eight and nine and up into

2346
03:25:30.959 --> 03:25:35.559
eleven is about that. Yeah.
No, I'm saying, like the four

2347
03:25:35.920 --> 03:25:39.600
Beasts in Daniel seven, though,
I see those as those four Greek kingdoms.

2348
03:25:41.399 --> 03:25:43.479
I think the I think the liberals
are kind of right about that.

2349
03:25:43.559 --> 03:25:46.239
It's been't give them the you know, given the farm away. Hold on,

2350
03:25:46.399 --> 03:25:52.559
let me let's go to that.
So hold on. So you're saying,

2351
03:25:52.799 --> 03:25:56.840
uh, Daniel what uh in chapter
seven the vision of the four beasts?

2352
03:25:58.399 --> 03:26:01.600
A lot of people take that as
like, uh, what do they

2353
03:26:01.639 --> 03:26:05.680
say? It's like that one Medo
Persia, Greece, Rome, whereas I

2354
03:26:05.719 --> 03:26:09.559
would see it as and you're gonna
find this jenerally more liberal commentary. Well,

2355
03:26:09.559 --> 03:26:15.120
hold on, so you don't think
it corresponds to Jeremiah? Uh?

2356
03:26:15.840 --> 03:26:18.159
What do you mean? Well,
Jeremiah. Doesn't he have the same list.

2357
03:26:18.200 --> 03:26:28.799
I'm trying to remember Ezekiel has I
know, I know that it's in

2358
03:26:28.920 --> 03:26:33.239
Jeremiah. Yeah, Jeremiah has a
list of beasts, and Jeremiah and Daniel

2359
03:26:33.479 --> 03:26:39.000
like, uh, doesn't Jeremiah say
that he? Or does it? Daniel

2360
03:26:39.040 --> 03:26:41.600
says that he read Jeremiah, or
is the other way around it? Forget?

2361
03:26:41.639 --> 03:26:48.280
But one of them says, Daniel
reads Jeremiah's prophecy. So I'm saying

2362
03:26:48.399 --> 03:26:54.719
that wouldn't that likely be the beasts
that he's referring to? I remember,

2363
03:26:54.120 --> 03:26:56.959
I feel like I feel like I've
read it and then I've forgotten it.

2364
03:26:58.440 --> 03:27:01.760
That point on Jeremiah to d'wing a
chapter that time, Well, I don't

2365
03:27:01.760 --> 03:27:05.280
have a light in here. My
light burned out, so I can't see

2366
03:27:05.280 --> 03:27:07.319
anything. So hold on, let
me see. I got my Bible here.

2367
03:27:07.319 --> 03:27:18.879
I just can't see because there's no
light. So let's see. I

2368
03:27:18.959 --> 03:27:26.120
have like in chapter eight, I
think that that's about Alexander and Antiochus.

2369
03:27:26.959 --> 03:27:39.239
Chapter seven, I have that my
notes are that it's about Jeremiah four seven.

2370
03:27:43.079 --> 03:27:52.040
Let me see if that's right.
I just haven't looked at this in

2371
03:27:52.120 --> 03:27:54.920
a while, so I'm a little
rusty on it, but I think Jeremiah

2372
03:27:54.920 --> 03:27:58.280
four is what I'm thinking of.
Yeah, it's it's an old question for

2373
03:27:58.360 --> 03:28:01.280
me too. It's I'm rusty.
It's but I just heard some people talking

2374
03:28:01.280 --> 03:28:03.159
about it and it kind of got
me thinking again. And then another one

2375
03:28:03.200 --> 03:28:07.719
too. Hold hold on, let's
let's before we move on, let's let's

2376
03:28:07.760 --> 03:28:13.639
see what we're looking at here.
So uh yeah, so he has Jeremiah

2377
03:28:13.799 --> 03:28:20.959
has four beasts here listed right,
He's got declaring Judah a lot to be

2378
03:28:22.040 --> 03:28:28.120
heard in Jerusalem the trumpet. Assemble
yourselves to the fortified city, pick up

2379
03:28:28.159 --> 03:28:31.479
and fleezzon, hurry, I bring
disaster from the north, destruction. The

2380
03:28:31.559 --> 03:28:39.520
lion has come upon the den.
He has made it desolate. Uh maybe

2381
03:28:39.600 --> 03:28:46.479
this only mentions the lion. The
lion is Babylon Daniel seven four. I

2382
03:28:46.559 --> 03:28:50.239
think there's more beasts mentioned in Daniel
though. Maybe is it Daniel Ford keeps

2383
03:28:52.760 --> 03:28:56.680
mentioning beasts. I can't tell him. I can really see, are you

2384
03:28:56.760 --> 03:29:09.040
asking? Yeah, I just haven't
read Jeremiah. While so so the the

2385
03:29:09.399 --> 03:29:15.520
Church Fathers, according to orthodox study, Bubble, tend to think that the

2386
03:29:15.719 --> 03:29:22.760
leopard is Alexander the Great. The
lion is Babylon and that cites JEREMIAHS seven

2387
03:29:22.159 --> 03:29:26.079
or four for Babylon. What do
you what do you think of that?

2388
03:29:28.799 --> 03:29:33.079
And and then it was because because
there is like there's a multiple like things

2389
03:29:33.159 --> 03:29:37.440
begin points that are referred to as
a lion, right like, so I

2390
03:29:37.479 --> 03:29:41.959
wouldn't be so quick to but Jeremiah
is just hold on, jere But Jeremiah

2391
03:29:41.239 --> 03:29:50.120
is writing beforefore the Babylonian right right, the Jews losing them part of the

2392
03:29:50.159 --> 03:29:56.719
Babylians. So I mean, I
think you could just say that because these

2393
03:29:56.799 --> 03:30:03.760
four beasts are future to Daniel,
whereas the Babylonian Empire had already fallen by

2394
03:30:03.799 --> 03:30:07.719
the time he sees this vision,
that it wouldn't really match up because the

2395
03:30:07.360 --> 03:30:13.879
babylon the Babylonians fall under, uh
you know when it ever kinds his grandson's.

2396
03:30:16.040 --> 03:30:22.280
But what I'm saying is that he
lists the four large beasts, and

2397
03:30:22.360 --> 03:30:26.280
the first is a lion like a
lion has wings like an eagle. And

2398
03:30:26.360 --> 03:30:33.159
I'm saying that why would he not
be pulling from what he read in Jeremiah

2399
03:30:33.319 --> 03:30:43.440
about the lion there that brings the
destruction because the Babylonian he's not described Daniel's

2400
03:30:43.479 --> 03:30:52.040
not describing in Daniel seven, what
is contemporary with him? Isn't he looking

2401
03:30:52.120 --> 03:30:58.120
back to the previous beasts? Well, I'm seeing as he's getting a vision

2402
03:30:58.159 --> 03:31:03.559
in the future pretty much like he
does. Hold on, why do you

2403
03:31:03.639 --> 03:31:11.120
think that? Uh? I mean, what don't you hold on? Hold

2404
03:31:11.120 --> 03:31:15.040
on? Hold whoa wait a minute. We're overlooking the obvious here. So

2405
03:31:15.559 --> 03:31:20.120
the four best do you not think
they correspond to the four levels of the

2406
03:31:20.079 --> 03:31:24.280
statue? Ah? Yes, so
I was trying to get to that earlier

2407
03:31:24.440 --> 03:31:28.840
too. I was so because a
lot of people associate those. But in

2408
03:31:28.040 --> 03:31:33.559
Daniel two, okay, so it's
really interesting the chat the statue. You

2409
03:31:33.879 --> 03:31:35.360
got the head of gold, the
body of silver, you know, the

2410
03:31:35.440 --> 03:31:39.360
legs of bronze, and then the
feet of iron and clay, right sure,

2411
03:31:39.639 --> 03:31:43.479
And you know, the whole idea
is like it's like the most pure

2412
03:31:43.520 --> 03:31:48.319
metal to like this thing that's gonna
it's unstable's gonna crumble, hold on,

2413
03:31:48.200 --> 03:31:52.879
But it's not. It's not that
difficult because we know from Daniel two that

2414
03:31:52.959 --> 03:31:58.440
that the Last Layers is where the
Messiah is born, and that's the Roman

2415
03:31:58.479 --> 03:32:03.799
Empire. Well you don't believe you're
back on that? Yeah, yeah,

2416
03:32:05.280 --> 03:32:07.840
like I still obviously believe that,
you know, in the Kingdom of God

2417
03:32:07.920 --> 03:32:09.600
and the Messiah coming and like there
is uh, you know, there is

2418
03:32:09.680 --> 03:32:13.280
christological things in Daniel. I just
don't know if I had just put that

2419
03:32:13.399 --> 03:32:16.639
one to who who WHOA. Well, now we're getting into more dangerous territory.

2420
03:32:16.680 --> 03:32:20.840
What do you mean you don't think
that's about Christ? Okay, so

2421
03:32:22.200 --> 03:32:28.760
the statue unificant? Is his reaction
is you know, he's says Daniel R.

2422
03:32:28.959 --> 03:32:33.760
What is the stone? What is
the stone cut out without the crushes

2423
03:32:33.799 --> 03:32:39.120
the session? I mean, I
guess you could say that's Christ. Like

2424
03:32:39.440 --> 03:32:46.239
you guess, I mean that's a
famous Messianic problem. What are you thinking?

2425
03:32:46.319 --> 03:32:50.399
I mean the New Testament says is
Jesus? What are you talking about?

2426
03:32:50.920 --> 03:32:54.479
But Jesus also doesn't come and destroy
the Roman Empire. So I don't

2427
03:32:54.479 --> 03:32:58.680
think that, Yes he does,
he destroys it by his kingdom taking over

2428
03:32:58.760 --> 03:33:01.920
the Roman Empire. That's what happened. I mean, it's familiar with Church

2429
03:33:01.000 --> 03:33:05.319
history, the Byzantine Empire. Yeah, I mean that's a revival of it,

2430
03:33:05.399 --> 03:33:09.120
that's not like a toppling of it. It doesn't literally mean he destroys

2431
03:33:09.200 --> 03:33:13.840
it like an apocalyptic chaos. It
means that he destroys it through the preaching

2432
03:33:13.879 --> 03:33:18.680
of the word. That's what you
know. It really apocalypse. He goes

2433
03:33:18.760 --> 03:33:24.600
out to conquer with the sword that
proceeds from his mouth. Right, the

2434
03:33:24.639 --> 03:33:28.079
way I see the statue there is
that it's basically a prophecy of the fall

2435
03:33:28.120 --> 03:33:31.840
of ab one. So you've got
a Nebuchadnezar's the head of gold because I

2436
03:33:31.879 --> 03:33:35.959
mean, Daniel tells you're totally wrong. It's it's four empires. It's four

2437
03:33:35.040 --> 03:33:41.120
empires and the Messiah comes under the
fourth one. That's wrong. So I

2438
03:33:41.200 --> 03:33:48.319
mean this is like you don't think
that's a Messianic prophecy. Yeah, I'm

2439
03:33:48.360 --> 03:33:52.000
just within the text itself. I
think there's more clues. It doesn't work.

2440
03:33:52.159 --> 03:33:54.079
Hold On, that's not how that
we do it. We don't interpret

2441
03:33:54.360 --> 03:33:58.799
the texts in isolation as if.
I mean, so, so you bought

2442
03:33:58.840 --> 03:34:01.680
in a higher critical scholarship, so
you don't actually think this this is a

2443
03:34:01.760 --> 03:34:07.040
Messianic book. No, I mean, for instance, the fourth man in

2444
03:34:07.079 --> 03:34:11.159
the flame, like that's Christ.
Hold on a man? So who is

2445
03:34:11.239 --> 03:34:15.520
the stone cut out without hands?
Who's the New Testament? Identify that as

2446
03:34:20.600 --> 03:34:24.120
I mean Peter for Peter, for
the Christ as a rock. So you

2447
03:34:24.239 --> 03:34:26.040
have that. I don't remember if
it's you don't know what? Okay,

2448
03:34:26.319 --> 03:34:41.639
all right, this is ridiculous.
Yeah, so I mean baffling to me

2449
03:34:41.799 --> 03:34:46.200
to here. I mean I was
kind of tracking with him initially, like

2450
03:34:46.280 --> 03:34:48.079
listening, Okay, I can hear
this, I can get this. But

2451
03:34:48.200 --> 03:34:52.959
now he's like, no, no, that's not a Messianic prophecy. All

2452
03:34:54.040 --> 03:35:01.079
right, let's read this. So
Daniel receives the vision of the statue,

2453
03:35:03.440 --> 03:35:07.559
and it says that Nebukaneezer, this
is what will happen in the latter days.

2454
03:35:07.639 --> 03:35:11.680
The latter days is always a reference
to the Messianic era, right,

2455
03:35:13.079 --> 03:35:18.879
it's when it's when the fulfillment of
these things, as Jesus says, right,

2456
03:35:20.000 --> 03:35:22.520
all things written the prophets will be
fulfilled. He says, here's here's

2457
03:35:22.559 --> 03:35:26.840
your dream, Nebukandezer. I saw
your dream, he says, thoughts came

2458
03:35:26.879 --> 03:35:31.559
into your mind, and it was
about what would come to pass after this.

2459
03:35:31.799 --> 03:35:35.360
He who reveals secrets has made known
to you what will be, but

2460
03:35:35.479 --> 03:35:39.440
asked for me. The secret has
been revealed because I have more wisdom than

2461
03:35:39.479 --> 03:35:43.559
anyone, not because I have more
wisdom, but that you may know the

2462
03:35:43.639 --> 03:35:46.239
thoughts of the hearts. So basically
saying that God's given me this. It's

2463
03:35:46.319 --> 03:35:50.000
not you were watching behold a great
image. This image was splendor with excellence,

2464
03:35:50.000 --> 03:35:54.479
so before you was form was awesome. The image was fine gold.

2465
03:35:54.559 --> 03:35:56.520
It's chest, arms of silver,
it's belly, thighs braun so it's four

2466
03:35:56.600 --> 03:36:01.079
metals all the way down to the
Arno clay, which are based the statue.

2467
03:36:01.360 --> 03:36:05.319
You watch. While the stone was
cut out without hands, it struck

2468
03:36:05.399 --> 03:36:09.520
the image on its feet and broke
them into pieces. The iron, the

2469
03:36:09.600 --> 03:36:13.200
clay, of the bronze, the
silver. Jesus himself says, whoever falls

2470
03:36:13.319 --> 03:36:18.079
on this stone will be crushed,
talking about himself. The stone cut out

2471
03:36:18.120 --> 03:36:24.879
without hands is a reference to the
Messiah and his divine origin. He's not

2472
03:36:24.079 --> 03:36:31.000
a human creation. The stone struck
the image on the feet and broke it

2473
03:36:31.040 --> 03:36:33.600
into pieces. The iron, the
clay, the bronze, the silver were

2474
03:36:33.680 --> 03:36:39.680
all crushed together, and they became
chaff like the threshing floor. And the

2475
03:36:39.840 --> 03:36:43.040
stone that became that struck the mountain
became a great struck. The image became

2476
03:36:43.079 --> 03:36:48.200
a great mountain and filled the earth
again. Almost every church, father and

2477
03:36:48.200 --> 03:36:52.520
anybody, even where this is a
prophecy of the Church, which is the

2478
03:36:52.680 --> 03:37:00.319
great mountain that fills the whole earth. Jesus came under the fourth of that

2479
03:37:01.079 --> 03:37:05.079
fourfold division, the Roman Empire,
which was the last defeat the feet of

2480
03:37:05.120 --> 03:37:09.799
iron and clay. That's when Jesus
was born. This is not like super

2481
03:37:11.200 --> 03:37:15.159
technical, super hard to figure out. And his kingdom was set up under

2482
03:37:15.200 --> 03:37:22.239
that Roman Empire. Not that hard. Unless we want to be unbelieving higher

2483
03:37:22.280 --> 03:37:28.239
critical scholars than we don't believe anything. This is the dream. These are

2484
03:37:28.520 --> 03:37:35.239
kings, and the God of Heaven
has given you a kingdom wherever men shall

2485
03:37:35.319 --> 03:37:37.799
dwell, the beasts to feel the
birds of heaven, He will give them

2486
03:37:37.840 --> 03:37:39.239
in your hands, and he has
made you rule over them all. You

2487
03:37:39.399 --> 03:37:45.200
are this head of gold. So
Nebuknezer is the head. The Babylonian Empire

2488
03:37:45.280 --> 03:37:48.559
is the head. After you.
Another kingdom will arise, then a third,

2489
03:37:50.360 --> 03:37:56.040
and then the fourth is iron.
This corresponds to Rome. Whereas you

2490
03:37:56.120 --> 03:38:01.559
saw the feet and the toes,
they will be divided. And yeah,

2491
03:38:01.600 --> 03:38:07.440
we can debate exactly who the toes
are, but the point is that in

2492
03:38:07.559 --> 03:38:09.520
the days of these kings, the
God of Heaven will set up a kingdom,

2493
03:38:11.639 --> 03:38:13.959
and it will not be left to
other people. It will break in

2494
03:38:13.079 --> 03:38:18.680
peaces, and it will consume,
and it will stand forever. Who does

2495
03:38:18.760 --> 03:38:22.159
anybody think is the Kingdom of God
that stands forever? It's the Church.

2496
03:38:22.799 --> 03:38:35.159
It's a prophecy. The Church.
Jesus sets up the Kingdom of God.

2497
03:38:35.600 --> 03:38:41.239
The Kingdom of God is predicted to
be victorious. It conquers the Roman Empire

2498
03:38:41.399 --> 03:38:46.959
exactly as this passage said it would. To me, it's odd that,

2499
03:38:50.799 --> 03:38:52.159
I mean, I was just confused. So I guess he's just saying,

2500
03:38:52.159 --> 03:38:58.040
no, it's not about a future
Roman empire. It's just about people underneath

2501
03:39:00.719 --> 03:39:05.840
Nebuknezer's kingdom. Okay, but where's
the Kingdom of God set up at that

2502
03:39:05.000 --> 03:39:07.799
time? Oh? Well, I
guess it's not. I guess it's a

2503
03:39:09.360 --> 03:39:13.120
false prophecy, or it's just a
bunch of gibberish, right, or it's

2504
03:39:13.159 --> 03:39:20.040
predicting the church. So that's enough
of that. Let's get to the super

2505
03:39:20.159 --> 03:39:24.879
chats. So maybe i'll get my
I'm sorry I couldn't read the text better

2506
03:39:24.959 --> 03:39:30.159
in here, it's like it's super
dark. But we'll have to get some

2507
03:39:30.280 --> 03:39:37.040
new lights in here soon. Wood
Green Grippin sends a dollar, says,

2508
03:39:37.200 --> 03:39:41.159
finish this stream Seawn Curry ten dollars
thanks to Jay, John Venner, sweet,

2509
03:39:41.799 --> 03:39:45.600
we need an official wine, Mom
Wallace, shame for all the worst

2510
03:39:45.719 --> 03:39:52.639
arguments. Maybe maybe they do get
pretty wild up in here. Save us

2511
03:39:52.159 --> 03:39:56.719
mesolitis one dollar. Hello from Greece. What's up, dude? Hopefully things

2512
03:39:56.719 --> 03:40:00.600
are good in Greece. Regabitch ten
dollars. I just want to say hello,

2513
03:40:00.959 --> 03:40:01.840
Well, hello, We give a
shout out to you, Val.

2514
03:40:03.120 --> 03:40:05.440
Val Kilmer right there. Five dollars, Jay, thank you for doing these

2515
03:40:05.440 --> 03:40:07.520
streams. I was Chris made a
Sunday. Thanks God bless keep up the

2516
03:40:07.520 --> 03:40:09.799
good work. Well, thank you
so much. Val, appreciate that circle

2517
03:40:09.879 --> 03:40:13.159
g five dollars. What if you're
a beautiful slow boy and you get lost

2518
03:40:13.200 --> 03:40:18.920
in the complex writing style and languages
of the Church Fathers, Well take it

2519
03:40:20.040 --> 03:40:22.799
slow and easy. You don't there's
no rush. You don't have to rush

2520
03:40:22.879 --> 03:40:26.559
into the difficult Church father texts,
you know, try to find some of

2521
03:40:26.600 --> 03:40:31.440
the easier texts first, and maybe
rather than even jumping directly into the Church

2522
03:40:31.520 --> 03:40:35.360
Fathers, try to read something like
the Yaroslaw Pelicon book right like volume one.

2523
03:40:35.399 --> 03:40:39.840
That'll give you an introduction, and
then you'll get familiar with some of

2524
03:40:39.879 --> 03:40:43.920
the terminology. Expendable Empire ten dollars. I realized I was about to buy

2525
03:40:43.920 --> 03:40:48.040
an overpriced cop cooler and I wouldn't
tip J. Well, thank you so

2526
03:40:48.159 --> 03:40:50.920
much. I appreciate that. Yeah, coolers and kuzies do not come before

2527
03:40:52.879 --> 03:40:56.719
what we do over here. Alan
Matrix ninety nine, ten dollars. I've

2528
03:40:56.760 --> 03:40:58.639
listened to the Trent Horne debate a
couple of times, and I don't understand

2529
03:40:58.719 --> 03:41:05.680
what he means by doing your natural
theology in reverse. I think what he

2530
03:41:05.760 --> 03:41:09.719
was trying to argue was that,
well, Jay, you're still using reasoning

2531
03:41:09.920 --> 03:41:16.680
and logic when you do your tag
apologetics and reasoning and logic is just natural

2532
03:41:16.799 --> 03:41:22.040
theology. Well, no, natural
theology is not quote reasoning and logic.

2533
03:41:22.120 --> 03:41:26.840
Okay, he's missing the whole point. Natural theology is defined as even in

2534
03:41:26.959 --> 03:41:35.159
John Paul's encyclical Fetes at Ratio,
it's defined as arguing or theologizing or philosophizing

2535
03:41:35.239 --> 03:41:41.000
about God apart from divine revelation.
That's what natural theology is. So using

2536
03:41:41.120 --> 03:41:46.920
logic and reason is not the equivalent
of natural theology. You'll notice throughout that

2537
03:41:46.079 --> 03:41:52.079
debate, Trent just kept equivocating and
equating quote natural theology with all kinds of

2538
03:41:52.159 --> 03:41:56.360
different things. Oh you're using logic, that's natural theology. Oh you're making

2539
03:41:56.360 --> 03:42:00.440
an argument that's natural theology. Now
that's not what natural theology is. We

2540
03:42:00.559 --> 03:42:05.799
define the parameters very clearly at the
beginning of the debate. BMX nineteen six

2541
03:42:05.799 --> 03:42:09.079
six twenty five dollars. Thank you
so much. Appreciate that fat super twenty

2542
03:42:09.079 --> 03:42:13.559
five bucks. Our longtime buddy supporters, super chatter there. Appreciate you.

2543
03:42:13.680 --> 03:42:16.639
BMX roll six five dollars. Thank
you for this drink. Can you explain

2544
03:42:18.239 --> 03:42:22.680
what happened in the Westminster Confession tradition. Did they start removing Gospel books from

2545
03:42:22.719 --> 03:42:30.280
the cannon? No? I think
that the Westminster Confession tradition is just gonna

2546
03:42:30.360 --> 03:42:35.159
follow Luther because Calvin, if you're
not aware, Calvin was a humanist,

2547
03:42:37.000 --> 03:42:39.120
and a humanist is not the same
thing as what we think of as humanism.

2548
03:42:39.840 --> 03:42:46.920
The Renaissance humanist tradition was a wide
movement amongst scholars like Lorenzo Vala,

2549
03:42:46.079 --> 03:42:52.000
for example, who did good work. I don't agree with everything necessarily,

2550
03:42:52.520 --> 03:42:54.879
Vali did good work, for example, in exposing a lot of papal forgeries

2551
03:42:56.639 --> 03:43:01.000
and other Renaissance humanists. They weren't
just Protestants that many of them were Catholic,

2552
03:43:01.200 --> 03:43:07.079
right like Erasmus. Erasmus was a
humanist. And all they were doing

2553
03:43:07.399 --> 03:43:11.879
was saying, hey, it's time
for us to get some degree of textual

2554
03:43:11.920 --> 03:43:15.680
studies going because there's a lot of
medieval forgeries, and there was also a

2555
03:43:15.760 --> 03:43:22.000
desire to return to the ancient texts. And so you know Calvin Luther,

2556
03:43:22.280 --> 03:43:26.719
those people, Erasmus as well,
they learned Greek and Hebrew because they wanted

2557
03:43:26.760 --> 03:43:31.959
to go back to the text.
So humanism is part of the reason that

2558
03:43:33.719 --> 03:43:37.120
they went about this in this way, and that's what led them, for

2559
03:43:37.200 --> 03:43:41.719
example, to say, well,
which canon as Protestants are we going to

2560
03:43:41.840 --> 03:43:46.280
accept? Well, Jerome was not
did not have a high view of the

2561
03:43:46.360 --> 03:43:50.600
Didero canon. He still cited it, but he didn't necessarily think it was

2562
03:43:50.639 --> 03:43:54.879
canonical because Jerome agreed with Jews that
we should follow him asoretic text. Now,

2563
03:43:54.920 --> 03:43:58.559
the Roman Caloic Church did not end
up going with Jerome, but the

2564
03:43:58.600 --> 03:44:01.239
protest and said, well, why
don't we just go with the Jews the

2565
03:44:01.319 --> 03:44:05.799
masoretic texts and drum So that's part
of the reason that they have the Protestant

2566
03:44:07.000 --> 03:44:09.879
cannon. So I don't think that
like the Westminster Confession, people just started

2567
03:44:09.879 --> 03:44:16.360
removing books. They were just kind
of committed to this humanist approach of returning

2568
03:44:16.440 --> 03:44:20.600
to the original source text or what
they thought were the source sex Orgie mentioned

2569
03:44:20.639 --> 03:44:24.200
this offhand and debate with a Protestant. Yeah, so that's what I was

2570
03:44:24.639 --> 03:44:30.520
probably referring to. But I mean
it's I don't think it's wrong to say

2571
03:44:30.600 --> 03:44:33.319
that luther and Protestants just throughout books
of the Bible. I mean, it's

2572
03:44:33.360 --> 03:44:37.680
basically what they did. Turtle items
one dollar. Would you debate the politics

2573
03:44:37.719 --> 03:44:45.000
and religion server? Again, I
mean I'm not opposed per per se,

2574
03:44:45.200 --> 03:44:52.600
but I mean, do they want
to debate philosophy? I mean usually when

2575
03:44:52.639 --> 03:44:58.000
we open it up in there,
it's just a bunch of like teenage atheists.

2576
03:44:58.159 --> 03:45:01.360
So I don't know, it's basically
I don't know. Well, we'll

2577
03:45:01.360 --> 03:45:03.879
see Rvy sports hundred dollars. Thank
you so much. Wow, that's so

2578
03:45:03.959 --> 03:45:07.399
crazy, fat super chat. I've
never sent a super chat before. I

2579
03:45:07.399 --> 03:45:09.920
want to thank you for expanding my
understanding of God, bringing me closer to

2580
03:45:11.040 --> 03:45:13.159
him. Thank you. Well,
Hey, man, Thank you so much.

2581
03:45:13.239 --> 03:45:15.840
That's a really generous super chat.
You don't have to get that much.

2582
03:45:16.639 --> 03:45:18.879
Kind of humbled by that, but
thank you so much. Temple Hat

2583
03:45:18.959 --> 03:45:22.959
Girl, twenty five dollars. I
want to say thank you and appreciate you

2584
03:45:22.040 --> 03:45:26.120
taking my call. Well, thank
you, Temple hat Girl. Appreciate your

2585
03:45:26.239 --> 03:45:30.360
questions. Sorry, I didn't remember
enough about for Telly Tod off the top

2586
03:45:30.399 --> 03:45:35.399
of my head, but you refresh
my memory and I remember all the social

2587
03:45:35.559 --> 03:45:41.000
justice nonsense in it. Now average
a liberal Zellot Spangler, Sorrel Schmidt,

2588
03:45:41.520 --> 03:45:48.520
Giovanni Genteel, the illiberal reaction of
right and left. What are your views.

2589
03:45:48.760 --> 03:45:50.680
I've read a little bit of Schmidt, and I read a little bit

2590
03:45:50.719 --> 03:45:56.559
of Spangler. I've not read Genteel
or Alan Sorel. So I like Spangler.

2591
03:45:56.840 --> 03:46:01.600
He has an interesting approaches history that
kind of remind me of Daniel,

2592
03:46:01.079 --> 03:46:09.360
But I also think that it's unfortunately
Spangler is basically historical relativists, so there's

2593
03:46:09.440 --> 03:46:11.639
insights there. And you know,
we covered Spangler when we're talking about Tavistock,

2594
03:46:11.719 --> 03:46:16.840
because Tavistot read Spangler in order to
weaponize it, which is pretty wild.

2595
03:46:18.239 --> 03:46:22.719
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2596
03:46:22.799 --> 03:46:26.239
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2609
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thank you guys, appreciate all that, and I kind of wish the Muslim

2615
03:47:54.319 --> 03:47:54.959
dude would come back.