Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm Martin willis your host, and
I hope you are safe, healthy and happy wherever you are. Our guest
for Kurt Collins. He's been on the show a few times, has been
quite a while. It's been quite a while since he's been on. He's
going to be discussing a few historic UFO cases of interest, the cash Land
Room case and then a tip and things like that and the further on in
the show. And when you're over at our website, we have a blog
as usual from Charles Lear. This is the UFO crash and as Tech New
Mexico. It's a very controversial story and he lays out his opinions and other
most other opinions very effectively on that. Anyone can support the show and you
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so once a week you will get a copy of the blog and you
will also get who's upcoming as far as a guest. But let's bring in
our guests. Kurt, Welcome to the show. Hi Martin, good to
be here. Yeah, Kurt, Now you you've been on a long time
ago. But let's I know your background is if you were interested in UFOs
when you're young and then kind of got away from it, if you could,
why don't you tell the listening audience how that went? Well? It
was it was I read every UFO book could get my hands on at the
library. I didn't actually buy many of them, but one, the one
I remember is that was Frank edwins Edwards book and uh, you know,
I read that again and again, and you know, just I memorized wherever
the section one the UFO books was in the library, so I went to
a different one. I could go right to that section, and you know,
and you know, other strange things of course too. And there really
weren't very many, but um, you know, I followed the subject on
television is as much as possible, and there used to be a lot more
programs, you know, pretty good mainstream network programming on UFOs, and that
really fell off in later years. But I drifted away from the topic as
I grew older, and then you know, Will experienced it mostly through entertainment,
the movies and the X Files and things like that, and then later
was drawn back to the topic and I thought, well, what is what's
going on? What's what are the real things that that are behind this?
You know what, There's there's so many stories, and so I became interested
in sorting out the fact from the fiction. And that was around twenty eleven
and I was pen pals with James Moseley, who did a Saucer Smere newsletter
and he had been in the field since the early fifties, and he guided
me and told me a lot of things about his experience and directed me to
one of his favorite cases was a cash landrom case, and through his interest
in that, I delved into that and have been interested in that ever since.
Right And you know, for the long time listener, it was myself,
you and Chris Lambright as well as Colby Landard Landrum came on the show,
which is a very rare appearance by Colby. I don't think he's been
on too many shows that a podcast that I know of anyone, No,
only yours only yours you were that was that was great and I know you
you got um Calvin Parker to talk when he wasn't doing any media, so
you know, both of those were great shows. And I think that was
your first live show too. By the way, Uh, did we have
technical difficulties? No? No, that actually went pretty well and especially for
as many people involved. But yeah, that was so that was a great
show. That was the first time I was able to contact Colby and I
kept in touch with him for a while, but he moves around and dropped
out a site, but you know, he's it was really it was really
good to have his first hand testimony on that, and um, you know,
and that that's exactly the kind of thing that I like is rather than
here in the summary from UFO book and so often it's it's you know,
it's even worse than secondhand. It gets passed down like legend. But if
you can go back to the source, there a witness testimony, the original
documents, I think that's the only chance we have of sorting out what's real
about something. Now. I really do think we spoke up well through email
back and forth that I said, you know, I probably have thirty or
so brand new listeners to the topic, and you know, the long time
listeners are probably really tired of hearing the stories. But I think it's important
that the new people that are listening, you know, can get a little
background of a lot of people have no idea what we're talking about right now,
the Cash Ndrom case. So if you can, in a nutshell not
to drive away the people that have heard this story many times, but as
quickly as possible, can you go through how you know what exactly happened there?
Okay? Unfairly short summary is this was a night near Christmas in December
nineteen eighty was the twenty ninth that there were these two ladies, both in
their fifties, Benny Cash and Vicky Landrum, and her grandson who was almost
seven years old at the time, Holby Landrum, the guests we were mentioned
in previously. They were out for the ladies wanted to play bingo that night,
couldn't find a game because they didn't realize it was closed but in the
time between Christmas and New Year's so instead they After having dinner, they were
on their way home. They had gone from the city. This was in
Texas. They lived in Dayton, Texas. They were in the nearby New
Caney, Texas, and we're driving back through Huffman, and these are small
towns, but just so I probably everyone knows a little bit about Houston.
It wasn't that far from Houston, in particular the Houston Airport, so we
probably about eighteen miles away or something like that. They saw a light through
the trees, and it drew closer to them eventually and came down over the
road and it was this enormous shape. Fire spit from it, and it's
kind of unclear whether the object itself glowed or it was the light produced by
the flames, but they said it lit up the sky like it was splitting
open. And in fact, the ladies were both religious and thought maybe this
was this was the biblical end times, the end of the world, and
they were they're terribly frightened. They got out briefly. Betty Cash stayed out
the longest and shielded her eyes from the brightness. And it was so bright
they really couldn't make out the shape of just what they were, whatever was
causing this light, And they felt the heat from it too, tremendous heat,
and eventually Vicky and Colby. They kept pleading for Betty to get back
in the car, which she eventually did. The object at that about that
time began to rise, and it had a peculiar motion. I forgot to
describe that, and there are a lot of details I'll leave out, but
it would kind of rise and fall as at the flames. It didn't seem
so much to be propulsion, but it did coincide with that, and eventually
it lifted up, kind of turned over and flew away slowly, almost as
if it was floating off like a balloon. But and this is where one
area of controversy comes in. Young Coleby claimed that he saw helicopters the whole
time, and the ladies said they only saw the helicopters later and from a
distance at that point, and when it moved away, it had been blocking
the roads. So they drove on down and observed in a couple of other
locations, and at one of them they saw the helicopters much more closely,
and they were double rotors andook helicopters, which are primarily used by the military,
or were at that time. So that convinced him that whatever was happening,
the military was aware. Of it. Eventually it passed. They went
home and later that night they began feeling bad and Betty Cash became ill afterwards
and was hospitalized. And from there there's some controversy because the UFO investigators are
convinced that what she suffered was radiation exposure. The actual medical diagnosis was skin
problems and alopecia arrada, which is a hair loss, which is another kind
of skin related condition. But she had flew like symptoms and all the hair
loss and this this diarrhea and vomiting and everything did resemble the symptoms of radiation
poisoning. So that's one of the reasons we can't shake that association, whether
it's it's actually true or not. So that's um, there's much more to
the story. That's that's the basic situation and the players involved. Yeah,
when I was when I had colbyon and you joined me and all that.
Right after that, I was contacted by someone that said he definitely knew this
was a military experimental craft. To remember, I pulled you in on that
conversation. Do you remember any of them? Well? Yes, And what
was so strange about that? There were there were two people within about a
week and they both claimed to have witnessed this in their youth, and it
was so strange that after all these years and all the television coverage that they
would they would um contact. But I did look into both of the stories
and they seemed plausible. But from a investigator's viewpoint, they didn't provide any
details that weren't already known, and you know, I'd want to accuse them
of being imitators, but you know, we have to there was there was,
you know, we what we really hoped for was new, verifiable details,
and they couldn't provide that. But you know, I have to say
they seemed sincere. So you know, I have saved all the information and
have considered how I could use it. I mean, I don't want to
add to the to the controversy and misinformation on the case, but um yeah,
it's it's there are that. That's the thing that has has endured is
the thought that this was some sort of um military craft or experiment as some
kind, and that's what the witnesses themselves believed. And you know, we've
yet to find any evidence of that, and no no classified craft that resembles
it has has shown up. But it's um. It could have possibly been
some type of nuclear propulsion possibly, you know, I mean, if they
did get radiation burns, you know, and this was nineteen eighty I'm not
sure what they had going on, you know, as far as the black
budget, you know, secret programs that they were, you know, trying
to experiment with. But I know that I do believe there was some type
of nuclear powered propulsion that they were experimenting with or am I off on that.
No, that's that's true, but that was much earlier, and they
had pretty much discarded that because they what they had trying to do was,
you know, they had nuclear sub rains and they tried to have a nuclear
powered airplane, but the shielding was made it so heavy the thing couldn't really
fly and it was dangerous to the pilots, so they pretty much scrapped that.
But you know, they did experiment. It would take some real technological
leaps that were not aware of. But the one of the things that since
since we talked, I located some documents from the Texas Department of Health.
Their radiation bureau went out and examined the scene, and they found no trace
of the kind of radiation that something nuclear would have produced, So if there
was some radiation, it's more likely to have been something like pulsed microwave,
which you know there has been discussions of using that to propel craft, so
it's more likely it was something like that. Even possibly if the craft caused
their injuries, that it could have been like some residue of propulsion or a
weapon system, you know, something chemical is what I mean, So you
know it. The real problem is the helicopters could never be traced, and
you would think that that those would be the easiest thing, but the problem
with that is, um, this was during the Christmas break and it was
a skeleton crew. The military resources we had really devoted towards this was during
the time there were hostages in irand so they most of the resource has been
aimed in that direction. You know. As it turned out, they were
eventually released and that wasn't necessary. So the cases of pozzible, I mean,
everyone that studies it is pretty much convinced that the witnesses are credible and
helicopters could have been there, although we can't prove it, and we know
that Betty Cash's injuries were definitely real, but we can't tie it up and
connect at all. So it's an enduring puzzle now. And one of the
things I wanted to say about it is that although what we can't solve it,
we have a lot of evidence and documents and I've collected that at the
site there. I have one of the things people might enjoy seeing the videos
that have been made over the years, and I don't have them all,
but I don't have a collection of those. But as far as the documents
themselves, we have the original witness testimony that was given to the investigator.
There are some we don't have the original medical records, but we have the
summary of them from doctor Peter Rank who examined them, some correspondence between the
original people, and so there's a lot of firsthand data on it, and
you know, but it's a you know, this was a real case with
real people. They suffered consequences, and you know, we can study it.
And the military angle is something that's that's absolutely interesting. Because the witnesses
felt that they were injured by this, they pursued a legal case and it
was ultimately dismissed. Been in the course of investigating it, every branch of
military service and NASSA I was questioned about whether they had some involvement or if
they had a craft that matched the the UFO. But you know, they
all said no, of course, but um it touched you know. And
the way part of part of this investigation got started was the media attention.
Um Ron Widen senator. I think he was a representative, not a senator.
He actually asked the Air Force initially then the Army to look into this.
So it's one of the few times a politician has been involved. And
all the branches of service, so it really uh, you know, there
was a big reaction from the United States government and the military on this.
Do you think that the military um would have gotten all the straight answers if
this was a say, a contracted you know, black ops, secret propulsion
type of situation. Do you think they would if they I mean, it
seems to me reasonably that they would indeed get any answers that they asked.
Is that is that? So? Do you to agree with that or do
you think they would could clam up about it if it was a private company.
The private angle is interesting because that would possibly prevent them from getting all
the information. But they did. They did make a sincere effort it was
the department. The Army Inspector General George Saran was the one that conducted the
investigation and he checked with all the branches as the service. This was independent
of the attempted lawsuit. He went to Houston, he met with Vicky Landham.
By that time, Betty Cash had moved with family to Alabama, but
he didn't talk to her on the phone. And he went to all the
local bases and trying to penetrate any classified program, but he found no evidence
of the helicopters. But it is interesting at the same time, you know,
I mentioned to help the helicopters and the Army. Where the original rescue
attempt for the hostages for I Rand took place was an Area fifty one.
So there is a slight Area fifty one connection there and it was due in
part to that that the first mentioned for substantial mention of of Area fifty one
as a secret base came out. And then of course later it was tied
to Bible Lazar and other things like that. But I don't know, that's
been one of the legends. And I know some of your listeners, I
know you were familiar with the Rick Dodi, the infamous disinformation agent. He
got involved with this case, tampering with his case early on, and he
promoted the military experiment, in particular the nuclear military experiment angle on this and
you know, I don't know if this was based on rumors he heard,
or if this was an agenda his or just for attention, but you know
he has promoted that ever since, and with only the slight amendment of the
fact that sometimes he claims that it was nuclear powered reverse engineered alien technology,
So you know it's and there's no evidence of either of those, but you
know, it's there's there's something real there that happened. You know, certainly
a lot of wild theories. And you know, the women went to their
to their graves, believe in everything would happen to them. They never substantially
changed their stories. You know, a few details drift and might have been
exaggerated by emotion, and Colby Landrum sticks to the story and and he feels
very bitter about the whole experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think
you know part of it is you know, um, was it his aunt
that the really sick or was it his mother? Actually? Uh that was
um Betty Cash was not a blood relation. She was a friend friend of
his grandmother. So and you know his grandmother. Um, neither he or
his grandmother suffered a severe symptoms, but they had flu like symptoms. But
Betty Cash had problems the rest of her life. Yeah, so yeah,
that's that. And uh, I know, wren't they trying to was it
was Betty trying to get compensation for her medical treatments she did and the the
only thing she actually got was just her normal medicare you know she did have
some of her bills paid through that and that's seldomensioned, but that would that's
true. And they attempted to sue the government for I think it was ten
million for Betty and five million each for Vicky and Colby, and I don't
know that they wanted their day in court. And when Chris Lambright interviewed Vicky
in nineteen eighty five, she said that if there was an offer of a
settlement, she wasn't sure she would take it because she wanted the truth to
come out and for this to be presented in court. And she sounded sincere
in saying that. But I think from the lawyer that was handling the case,
and Peter Gerston was the one who technically filed it. I think most
of the actual work was done there locally by a lawyer sheet in Texas.
But he's on record as saying that he thought that by taking this to court,
the government would settle, and so I think he never really felt like
he could win the case. There wasn't a lot of evidence. There was
testimony, but not the evidence that would persuade a jury. Yeah, yeah,
that's that's really something. Well. I think one of the strangest parts
of this, if it's really related to it, is that they actually dug
up the road shortly after, right, and they repaved the road. Did
I get, Well, you're you're you're right in remembering that. But that's
that's another point of controversy because you know, even the witnesses thought said later
because the road was repaved, but apparently it was another year or so afterwards.
I see, And so the story kind of it kind of grew where
it was done like, you know, the next day or a week later
or something like that. But that's that's kind of one of the myths have
been attached to this. I see. Did were there any UFO investigators at
the time really looking into this? And if so, they go to the
site. It's tragic the way that happened. So at first Betty and and
Vicky they felt what had happened was so strange. This is something that I
can't fully explained if they thought it was military. I don't know why they
chose to hide this, but I guess they were afraid they wouldn't be believed,
and because you know, they never thought of this as a UFO man
from ours kind of thing. In fact, they kind of laughed at that.
So they chose to keep it secret. And it was only during that
when Betty continued to be sick and had to go back to the hospital for
a second visit, that she told her doctor. Actually it was Colby that
that told that that the problem probably came from the UFO they saw or they
questioned if it could have. So that's how that. So it was almost
a month later before the that came out. And after that the Vicky Lander
got the number for the National u A Reporting Center. She called and they
passed the number onto the UFO organization. It was APRO in their extent now
and they they dropped the ball and eventually it was passed on the move on
and almost then it was almost two months later before the UFO investigation began,
so it you know, it was the trail kind of went cold. If
they had if that had been exposed and they had gotten on it the same
week, maybe they would have found other witnesses. Uh, you know,
they looked for other witnesses and didn't find them. But so there was there
was that there was a unfortunate passage of time there and so even maybe there
was some of the witnesses deep memories details were lost. Wow wow. Um.
So let's let's get We're going to cover you know, several different topics
here and there's not going to be any phone calls unfortunately today. But let's
let's talk about you had what was it called something about the saucers. Um,
it's the saucers, right, the saucers that time forgot. And so
the way I got interested in that was first of all, looking at the
at the cash landom case. I try to investigate only that, but then
there have been other cases where they have been bright UFOs. There have been
other cases of radiation exposure. Some of them go back to the fifties or
the early UFO history. So I kind of had to to study all UFO
history, and doing that, I found lots of lots of interesting cases that
have pretty much been forgotten. You know. We know these headline cases that
Barty and Benny Hill cases, the big headline, top tier cases, but
there're been a lot of interesting cases. Some of them are weird, some
of them are hoaxes, and some of them are you know, unexplainable and
as good as anything that's in the news today. So I've I've tried to
present that and also some of the figures involved. And there's a series we
do the ufologists at time forgot There's some people that helped establish the credibility of
the topic, but they've been eclipsed and kind of forgotten. So I look
at look at some of those things and uh, you know, and some
of the stories are comical. There. There's some some hoaxers that um that
they just wouldn't believe. Some of those weren't big, big newsmakers. Some
of them were still hearing about, like um, Silas Newton was the one
behind the Aztec case and that's where you you um have a have an article
on your your blog about that case. Now, So that was that's actually
when people hear the roswelve story. It's basically this was the first draft of
it. This was the crashed UFO story with bodies recovered, metal examined and
everything, and you know it. You know, some people believe both are
true. Some people believe that one is a cover story for the other,
but the Silence Newton version is almost certainly a hoax. So and he was
he was an old man and a swindler. Then went back to the nineteen
thirties. He was selling fake devices that sold old detectors, and when the
flying stores so flying saucers story came along, he said, Hey, these
are powered by the technology from the flying saucers. So it was an understand
art. Yeah, yeah, I know the Ramseys are they are They're pretty
convinced that that's a solid case. I'm totally on the fence of it defense
about the whole thing. The more I've you know, looked into it,
it's it's it's one of those that it's kind of hard sometimes when something kind
of fades into a myth um and then it becomes believable and like in a
cycle, you know, Uh, it's so hard to separate them. Let's
hear some of the stories. Um, you said, there were some really
great stories that kind of you know, time kind of forgot, but let's
hear some of them that are the more some of the more interesting ones.
Well, one of the things that um, while I'm stalling to remember one,
I'll tell you about this. There are also a number of cases of
man made UFOs, and the idea was floated that the UFOs are actually a
military project. You know, we're still talking about with that with the cash
Landom case, and some people really thought that was the answer behind it,
that there was the development of that, and there were also some hoaxes associated
that, and some of these were even seemed to veend by military personnel where
they where they welded pieces of airplane wings together and painted stencil numbers on them
that made it look like it was a secret project, and they would they
would hide these and you know, maybe set off some fireworks to make it
look like a crash. So that that happened then. I think that was
near Amarillo, Texas was one of those. But there were also some kids
that did similar to things to that, and it got complicated because there or
rewards being offered for flying saucers. So some people claimed to have seen it.
Some of these stunts were probably not actually intended to win the award,
but to gain attention because you know, well you your background in art history,
you know there's a big problem with counterfeits, and UFOs are no exception.
Yeah, Now, who was actually offering them money for like a reward?
There were there were three in nineteen forty seven, and I can only
remember there was one of them. Was there was the equivalent of an adventurers
Club. They put up a thousand dollars there was. I've written an article
about it, but that's a details. Yeah, three three. I don't
know if there's a way to win all three prizes, but you know,
three thousand dollars was a lot at the time. And but you know the
catchways you had to bring, at least for one of them, was you
had to bring a saucer or a piece of it there, so you know,
you couldn't just have a photo. Yeah, so that was that was
that was a motivation, and it got headlines. Whenever there's money involved,
it gets makes for headlines. Um and uh uh, let's see, oh
there was there was a weird case and this wasn't This was was almost the
UFOs we were almost an incidental thing in this. But there was a hypnotist
in the fifties, this Jay Z and he he hypnotized for a performance in
front of an audience. He hypnotized a man into saying that he had seen
a flying saucerer and hypnotized him to go report it to the police in the
fire department for comedy. The man did so, and I don't know how
long his show was that he could do this. Well, in the process
of doing this, apparently the man believed and did this. Um the police
thought he was a nut. He got it. They get into a fist
fight with him. He wound up getting hurt and going to the hospital.
And so what kind of started off as a goofy story, you know,
kind of took a tragic turn. And this this man was the victim of
this. And it was all just because this hypnotist was exploiting the UFO topic
as a joke for entertainment. And we see the newspapers have also exploited the
topic, I mean since the very beginning, and people started advertising flying saucer
specials at They're diner, and you know, it's just to cash in on
the topic, and they sold Flying Saucer haircuts and hats for ladies and just
everything, and it was and they would drop ten ten plates with advertising slogans
from airplanes for advertising and so you know, all this stuff kind of it
it maybe creates more awareness, but it also kind of spreads the joke factor.
Yeah, but also it's almost like it it shows it's becoming part of
the pop culture of the time, and which you know could also mean,
you know, people may think they're seeing UFO when they're not. You know,
there was that influence too, which is not always good. You know,
that's that's true. And it but just within days of the Kenneth Arnal
sighting, which you know that happened, he was sincere about whatever we saw.
We don't know exactly what it was, but within days there were so
many fakes and jokes and things that came up. And the exploitation too by
the newspaper media. They found out right away that flying Saucers would sell newspapers,
and so one of the things we can fault them for is that they
included a lot of low grade sidings. If there was if there's someone who's
called saw a bird out of the corner of their eye that was good enough
for them to call it the flying saucer and the headline. And whereas before
if there was like a mysterious light seen on a hill, they might call
that a ghost light or a spook light. Well, now it was a
flying saucer on the hill. So they really exploited the topic and it and
so you know, as a UFO Storian trying to go back through these old
headlines, you have a lot of false hits, things that aren't really good
reports at all. Yeah. Yeah, well, you know you look at
you look at like the big cases of the Kenneth Arnold and then the Maori
Island that you know, there's controversy. You know, it's kind of controversial
whether that really happened or not. I still heard both sides of the story
on that one. And then um Roswell was there, but it was a
flash in the pan. It was gone for many years because it was kind
of you know, um we were told that it was a weather balloon basically,
and and you know, move on. So that kind of was out
of the lime. And then you get into the nineteen fifty two when there
was a lot of sightings in the Capital sightings and all that, But was
there anything in between nineteen forty seven, say in nineteen fifty two that was
like a really big, you know UFO event. I I just can't think
of anything. Well, I'll jog your memory. You'll remember this. The
Thomas Mantel case. Oh yes, yeah, So his his death. Now,
see, that was one of the things that death makes it real and
that's something people can relate to. And you know that the tragedy of that
got a lot of people interested. And there were a lot of wild rumors
about that too, that it was like a ray beam or his his his
plane was disintegrated, and you know, there there's still a lot of controversy
over whether you know, he just flew to high without oxygen or if if
something else happened. So m you know, every UFO case there's a battle
over it. There there are champions. I mean, it's some of them
are some of the the most ridiculous cases. But that's that's the one that
perplexed me that even some of the les the least credible cases, the things
that should be in the dust ben But I can understand why people are still
concerned with rosewell in these main cases. But you know, there are some
though that should have been put away. I mean some of the cases later,
like well Georgia Damski from the nineteen fifties he claimed to have seen a
flying saucerer and there were some several secondary witnesses, but these basically were his
disciples and his well when you say cult, you'll think of the worst to
start a call, but you know, his little religious teaching group, and
you know they were they were followers of his, and they all kind of
had this spiritual belief that predated the message that the men from Venus was giving
him. And I really believe in his case he used flying saucers to promote
his spiritual beliefs, and people more more interested in flying saucers, and they
would say, well, if we're supposed to all be peaceful and live together
and not have nuclear energy, that message would be more convincing coming from an
advanced civilization from beyond the planet than it would from just a guy live in
a Palamar Gardens Hamburger stand. And there was Van tassel Is, that was
that his name, Fantassa that well, you know something interesting about him.
There were a number of people in the aviation business. He was a former
employee of Blockheat, and so was Rafeo Angelucci botched his name, but and
I think there was at least one or two others, maybe Daniel Fry,
and all these people claimed contact. Well, the things they have in common.
It was California, as it did Georgia Dampskin. There was a lot
of spiritual beliefs, New Age kind of things going on there and they all
had that in common. And you know, I don't I don't know.
I think all of those their stories were a mixture of genuine belief and wishful
thinking, but they they dominated the scene and the series. You know,
hopefully all your your listeners know about about Major Donald Kehoe because he's the one
that that really helped propel the UFO topping and it does something a little more
serious, and he connected with them military witnesses and solid cases and try to
talk to pilots, you know, the sort of thing that Leslie Kane is
trying to do today. And so he wanted the top to be presented credibly.
So he had a tremendous battle with Georgia Damski and these contactees and they
were claiming, you know, to regularly go off on space flights in these
ships, and it was just it was so silly. And some of them
had romances. And one guy, um oh, man, let's see if
I can remember his name, he had a he had a dog bow a
Martian dog, I believe it was, and he brought back tufts of his
hair. Um oh, I can't remember. He had a spacecraft convention.
I've gone blank on his name, but he was he had his day of
fame. And all these people they got on, they got on the talk
shows of the day, and they they they pretty much they almost drowned out
the UFO topic permanently as a scientific um scientifically respectable topic. Yeah. Do
you think that was there was any purpose to that or do you think it
was just the nature of what they were doing? Most of these people,
I think we were out probably for attention. Some of them knew that there
was some money to be made off at you know, And there were there
were probably dozens of them. I can think of I can think of a
dozen, although don't ask me to name each one. Howard Minger was another
one of them. A lot of guys named George, George fantastically and oh
no, now I can't think of another. George Truman. Beethuram was another.
And you know, some people have speculated that some of these people were
boosted or supported or maybe given additional attention to discredit the topping, but there
are plenty enough people around to discredit on their own, so they couldn't have
needed much help. When you were speaking about Donald Kehoe, and there is
a great interview of him with Mike Wallace interviewed him back in nineteen fifty eight,
and you can find that on YouTube. It's a really great interview.
I think Wallace was smoking during interview, something you don't see too often,
but anyone can find that on YouTube. Is a great interview. Kehoe was
like really, you know, trying to make an effort for this topic to
be taken seriously, and I think he did a pretty good job at it.
He did, and one of the things that he did was inspire confidence.
And he was able to not only reach existing military people, but commercial
pilots felt comfortable in going to him and giveing testimony because they knew that they
won't be treated as a joke and exploited. And Captain William Nash was one
of those and Kehoe, in his m I don't think he set out to
make his lifting in the UFO business, but that was after the success of
his first book and the people he contacted, he became a lecturer in a
way. He was one of the first UFO celebrities. But I think his
heart was actually in it and he was genuine in his efforts, and he
presented things in a nonsensational manner. Well, I will say that he had
a background as a Paul Prye and some of his dialogue is a little bit
melodramatic, and he what he really liked to do in his book was to
rather than present the information dryly, he would have it as if it was
between a conversation between him and say a military officer, and so he presented
it to liven that up. So I think that was kind of a dramatic
device. But um, well, even his critics like Captain Rupelt from the
who was head of the Project Bluebook with an overlap and that he said that
that that he hope presented the facts. Maybe his conclusions were a little exaggerated,
but he said, you know, his source material was right, and
so he felt like he was doing a pretty good job. Even though if
he did give the Air Force, uh some headaches and sharing it with the
public right right now. You mentioned earlier that some of these people are lost
in time to not just the UFO stories, but are there some some really
amazing people that you don't hear their names today that actually made some steps.
Can you think of some of those that you've looked into. Well, one
of the things I'd like to name some of the more credible people, and
I've written about them. Unfortunately the memories not connecting right now, but I
have a series on some of the people that were swindlers and they actually committed
crimes and some of them went to jail over the things that they had done.
Well, that's interesting, so let's let's talk about that. Yeah.
Well, one of the one that I've I've just published a story on is
is Harold Jesse Burney, and I'm with my partner on this project, Claude
Felstrom. He dug up just scores of news clippings on the man and not
And what we really like to do is, whenever possible, is not just
give the UFO case. Especially in the case of a person, if can
we track what happened to him before the UFO case and then what happened to
him after? I mean, did they you know, did they go into
some wild thing? In other words, were the acredible person and were the
incredible afterwards? Well for Harold Burney, No, he started he was he
was about fifty when his u in his UFO scheme came about. But he
had been at things since about nineteen seventeen. He had a life of crime.
He had he had he loved women, left them behind. He would
set up a business. He was kind of a a He would migrate between
the South and the north. He liked to spend his winters in a warm
climate, and it seemed like every time he left one location he would leave
behind a victim. He would he would set up a business and in the
case of a couple of times, he would would set up a big contract,
take thousands of dollars and then disappear with the money. And he eventually
and he went to jail a number of times over the years. I mean,
he was a real real scoundrel and a con man, and apparently very
charming and convincing one. He kept fooling people over and over. He eventually,
after getting out, seemed to go straight for a while. And he
became an inventor, and he invented some television antennas. Because around this time,
this would have been in nineteen fifty two, you know, this was
a huge industry and you could buy a television, but unt you had antenna,
you would get nothing. So he had a great indoor antenna. But
then somehow his criminal side reared up and instead of marketing at his antenna,
suddenly it was a free energy device that had been the design had been given
him to by the people of Venus, and he found a couple of investors
and he took him into strict confidence. He said he was working in partnership
with the government, so they couldn't tell anyone. But if he would invest
the money, they were going to sell it. There was a contract with
Westinghouse and they would they would buy the patent. There would be millions made,
and so he There were there were probably more people we don't know about,
but there were. There were two people mentioned in the news stories,
and the FBI eventually got wind of it and pursued and caught him. And
this one woman was a Washington secretary for a chemical chemical company, and she
probably should have known better, but she was the one that he was actually
convicted for and she lost I think it was about four I think it was
about forty thousand dollars in this and that's huge money. Then, yeah,
and uh, but but he was he's one of the few that was actually
convicted and did prison time. And so there's a lot more twists and turns
to the story than than than I can tell you here. But in research
the story, we found out his great granddaughter was trying to find out about
his past. She started her quest about twenty years ago. She had located
old prison records, had tried to get his FBI record. What's interesting is
that the man actually, as part of his scheme, he wrote a book
called My Two Weeks on Venus and it wound up being confiscated by the FBI.
I never saw print, but from the sound of it, that's in
his FBI file, which amounts to five hundred pages, and we've requested it
and they say they're going to release it, but it's going to take about
two years to redact all the personal details. Now, all these people involved
are probably long dead, but the FBI has their procedure and they're not going
to make an exception. Just because we want it. So we're really hoping
that you know, this is it will probably a who to read. I
mean, if we get it, I'm going to make every effort to see
that it's published. Yeah, yeah, that would be very interesting, especially
Yeah, what nineteen fifty late fifties is that when that was pulled into the
FBI. Fifty seven was when he was convicted, I think fifty six when
he wrote the story, and it was there have been portions of it quoted.
Uh. Jay Edgar Hoover actually wrote an article about that was published in
a Sunday newspaper supplement and he called it the uh what was it, the
Swindler from Venus or something like that, and so there were some quotes about
it, and he said, oh, but so this guy Bernie said that
when when he visited Venus, you know, they were all you know,
he was honored as a as a guest because of his scientific expertise. He
said that the plumbing features were made out of gold. So so if we
could, if we could just be friends with Venus, you know, we
would all be gold rich, and and of course the the energy we would
all have, you know, we would our nation would be safe and we
would probably flying saucers ourselves. That's right, if you can take eight hundred
degrees right, I mean that's about the service temperature there. Well not in
his version. It was a nice climate and you could wear shirt sleeves,
so yeah, I guess you could. Um. Yeah. I had a
discussion with someone that said that. I forget who it was. It was
one of the people like Adamski or um, I can't remember again, but
it was claiming that, yes, he was on Venus, he was truly
on Venus. And I said, how could that even be possible? And
why would he want to be on Venus? So why would he want to
go there? And he said, oh, it's it's like a spirit thing.
I was like, okay, yeah, that was That was kind of
the end of that conversation. But it's really amazing how you know they really
had this thing about Venus. Well, it comes from it comes from theosophy.
I just recently learned a lot about this and have a have a story
on this. But a lot of these I mentioned Damski had a background and
the occult and things like this, and many of these people did. They
were, In fact, they were some of the first people to insist that
flying saucers came from other worlds, but usually they attached some other thing with
it, and they were some of them were like spiritual journeys and things like
that, and this goes there's a big tradition of this, and there's an
overlap with spiritualism. But um, it's um, it's interesting that they were
so adamant about that. But Venus in particular was a was a significant place
in their religious beliefs. So whereas the average person they were concerned with with
the Martians, I mean, it was at the time, Mars was a
real scientific uh candidate. I mean it's a closed planet. We didn't know
that that it was incapable of supporting life, or maybe it had in the
past. But um, you know, there was a it was a legitimate
candidate. I mean now it's it's only considered as a joke. And you
know, like like in the Mars Attack movie from Yeah with the Nannies,
Yeah, that's right. And you know there was the astronomer that claimed he
saw canals. You know, there was like uh man made canals on Mars,
you know from years back, which had everyone, you know, kind
of panicking that there was intelligent life there and you know, afraid of that
they would come here and then came the War of the Worlds and all that.
Um, yeah, that's all. It's all pretty pretty amazing. Well,
you know, I said, I told you every theory has its champion.
People haven't given up on the fact that there are structures on Mars or
even the Moon. There are, there are people just they're they're pouring over
the details. Now, you know, if they find it, I would
surely like to see the evidence. But most of the stuff is glory and
I think kind of a combination of wishful thinking. So yeah, if it's
there, yeah, let's see it. And if it's not Mars, you
know, maybe you know, maybe another planet. They say that some of
our some of Saturn's moons are possibly capable of you know that they have water
and maybe the other ingredients for life. So you know, maybe maybe there's
something in our solar system. But you know, I think the stronger stronger
odds it's much further away. Yeah, you know, you never think of
moons as supporting life, but that is that's definitely a theory, and it
could be microbial. But um, I'm trying to think of the name of
the moon that it goes around Jupiter. I believe that it's it's an ice
covered but possibly you know, water below and it keeps somewhat warm just because
of the gravitational pressure as it's as going around kind of expands and contracts.
Um. So yeah, you never know where we'll find life, if we
will find any type of microbial life out there. It's all. It's all
fascinating. Um. So let's just before we move on. Um, is
there any other really funny character of that you looked into or is that?
Is that about it? As far as u he said, that's the only
one convicted that you know all about. Oh no, no, there there
were others. There are others convicting that. And I mentioned Silas Newton before
now he was he was convicted, but he didn't serve time. So you
know, that's that's why Harold Harold J. Burney when's when's the unfortunate prize
of being the jailed. So he was the first one jailed for a flying
saucer fraud. Oh there there's a there's another cast of characters. M there's
all. There's one that I'm going to be writing about. It'd like to
tell you about Ryan hold Schmidt. Now he's a contemporary of these other men,
and his story is similar. Um. I will tell you that he
um, he romanced a couple of victims. Um and it he he he
had them invest in gold mines and that oh, by the way, his
his friends which were also from Venus, they helped him locate gold and diamond
mines from the sky. So the women were persuaded to invest in that.
And now he's another person I actually found a living relative of and it's his
grandson, and he remembers him. He remembers the man. Finally he even
thinks that there's a likelihood that the stories are true. So it's it's sometimes
when you're dealing with someone who was a fraud and this man actually went to
prison and then you've got someone that loves him, it's like, well,
it's a bit uncomfortable to call them a fraud and a criminal, but that
these are provable, provable facts. So you know, I have to acknowledge
his feelings and try not to well I have to respect him, you know,
move on. But but yeah, I encourage people. That's that's called
the saucers. At time for God, we usually put up something every every
two weeks, and there's there's a we've been at it for about three years
now, so there's about one hundred stories up there at different things, So
you know, pick your topic anything from Roswell to you know, the UFO
crashes um and like I said, there's the ufologists at time Forgot, which
is a mixture of people that were sincere and maybe not so much. Well
that that link is in the show notes and also on YouTube as well for
anyone that wants to check that out. So yeah, that's that's really really
amazing. Let's switch gears now and talk about what you are looking into as
far as A tip and uh big low airspace and all that. Why don't
you get into that topic? Okay, Well, the topic has become a
renewed interest because the Pentagon just released the statement and copies of the videos that
were connected with the A tip story and they've said that these are Navy videos
and they characterized the objects as unidentified or unknown aerial phenomenon and so that's that's
really interesting. I mean, that's what propelled the whole A tip story.
Uh and what would you know? And most people know about this at least
from the news, or at least you know from the from the videos.
But um, and the Navy's position on this is interesting. Before I move
on to that they've adopted this fate, this phrase UAP, which they say
they've they've borrowed from the British Unknown Aerial phenomenon and it's actually not new.
I mean they were they were using that way back in the fifties, but
it didn't catch on like UFO. But it's almost more mysterious than saying UFO
because there's phenomenon, because that can be so many things. UM, but
it's such a strange choice because that this Navy spokesman will say UAP and then
in the next breaths start talking about drones and unmanned aerial systems as if it's
interchangeable. And I don't know if that confusion is deliberate, you know,
I think it's I think you're better off saying in UFO rather than implying something
that it's definitely genuinely mysterious. So that's anyway, that's kind of a side.
But so when the A Tip story broke, there was a The video
has got all the attention, but a minor part of this story they said
that twenty two million was a big part of the story. But twenty two
million dollars was funded for Robert Bigelow, who was a contractor for the program.
And at the time we didn't know the name of it. And it
was a SAP which i'll probably botch Advanced to Aerospace Weapons Systems Applications Program something
like that ASAP. And so it was about aerospace weapons development. And he
the purpose of this, they said, and this is what's controversial. What's
the cover story and what was the real purpose. The purpose was to study
aerospace development and what it might be fifty years from now, what our enemies
might deliver in that time and could we And they wanted its scientific studies in
twelve specific areas and I'll name just a few of them, lift propulsion,
directed energy weapons, and then there were some other things that it sounded kind
of strange, like human effects that was kind of nebulous. So the controversy
is that Harry Reid and the director the DA set this program up to study
UFOs and use scientific language to conceal it. But if that's so, the
program received its funding from Congress kind of based on a lie. So and
we're left to wonder. So how much of this contracted statement was true.
Was it really about weapons development, and if so, was it based on
UFOs it. You know, the military was interested in weapons, they always
are, and you know, if someone's got them, they want to have
information on them, and certainly they want to be able to development. So
I'm not convinced this was purely a UFO program. And even when Harry Reid
trying to get the funding for this as a formal special access program, he
wrote a letter to the Secretary Defense requesting the same kind of language and for
the purpose of development, he thought that they had, you know, in
the one year the program had existed, he said they've been good progress and
that there should be technological developments. So even to the Secretary Defense, it
was being presented as a weapons program. But so Robert Bigelow and your listeners
probably know, but there's a few that won't. He is a billionaire aerospace
developer. He has a contract within now and has put satellites in orbit in
conjunction with him, and what he's trying to develop in particular is expandable habitats
for space stations. However, his real passion is UFO research, and he's
been involved with it since the nineteen nineties. He had an organization, and
we'll talk about this just briefly, just to for reference, the National Institute
for Discovery Science. And he had top tier UFO people involved in this,
people with scientific backgrounds, not just not just enthusiasts, people with the h
There was John Shusler who had who was an engineer that had worked for NASA.
Jacques Valet was on their uh, Colm Keller who was a biologist,
and now I'm going blank on some of the other names. But these people,
you know, were highly credential. And what was interesting is at the
time he was publishing works on this and had a website and sharing it.
And you know what, he's known for being reclusive. He's sort of like
the Howard Hughes of UFO, but he was sharing information at the time.
He also, during this time, bought the skin Walker Ranch in nineteen ninety
six, but the story he published in two thousand and four was that there
weren't enough good cases to justify the continuing continuation of the company and he shut
it down. He kept the skin Walker Ranch his friends m Colm Keller,
her and George and Abe wrote a book about it, but the organization itself
shuttered shortly afterwards. The A TIP contract came along and he pretty much gathered
the band, got the band back together as as big a little Advanced Airspace
Space Studies, which people call BASS, but it's probably easier for us to
just say Bigelow. I know, we're talking about him and his company,
and so they won. They were the sole bitter for the contract, and
they initiated. They were given twenty two million dollars to do what this contract
asked for, to collect information about for the potential for weapons apparently in those
topics. But the cover story he gave to the public was, instead of
saying it was for the military, he wanted to study UFO cases for commercial
aerospace development. In other words, he could potentially build his own spaceship based
on study and UFOs and maybe finding UFO relics. So I'm going to pause
her for a moment and let you ask a question about that and get a
supporter. Yeah, yeah, okay. You know one of the things about
about all of this is was he actually the sole receiver of that twenty two
million. There was no other funds given out to anyone else for any other
purposes during that time. If there was, we don't know about it.
And what he did was he subcontracted two major things. One was to the
Mutual UFO Network mof ON and part of this has been known for a long
time because he had them do field studies and it was a big program fifty
six thousand dollars a month paid. They had They had people who were working
as professional investigators that were available around the clock to go around the nation to
for truly outstanding UFO cases where there might be physical evidence. And this was
I mean, this caused excuse me restructuring a mouf on uh And you know,
went from for this team at least from a volunteer organization to a paid
organization and they had pretty pretty strict contract where they had to deliver information to
move on. And then not only did they deliver the well, I should
say where the information went. So Bigelow on his own had developed a team
forty to fifty scientists and technicians and some field investigators and they would analyze the
material that Moufin collected and and some of the investigators would actually go with him
to investigate the cases. So now this particular work was definitely UFO related.
Now, what was going to be done with the data, we don't know
because it flowed from Moufon to Bigelow on to the Defense Intelligence Agency. They
were the sponsor of this, and you know from there, you know,
once he got to Bigelow, we don't know what happened or how it was
processed. So and he kept the relationship a secret. He did tell Moufin
that he had a partner, which they probably assumed was another aerospace partner like
Lockheed, but he certainly withheld the fact that it was the government. So
Mufon and you know UFO, we're always talking about government secrecy and the suspicion
of hiding evidence they don't Moufan would not have been happy to know that they
were basically in partnership with the government, and so Bigelow withheld that from them.
And so the feeling investigation part of that was known. What what people
didn't know was that he um he had them right. Uh. He wanted
them to write topics about those twelve topics. Now they only wrote five of
them, and he paid them about ten thousand dollars for that, and once
that was delivered, he immediately changed gears to explain a little bit more what
you mean about the topics? Sure, okay, uh, I'm I'm not
going to list all twelve because I can't remember them. So these were these
were things that they wanted to carry beyond what we can do today with modern
aircraft. And one of them was left and propulsion UM. There was also
things like well, actually cloaking I thought I thought it was stealth, but
the actual term was cloaking um UM. And there were energy weapons directed energy
weapons UM. And I mentioned human effects earlier and it was it was.
And there was another one called human interface, which it wasn't defined, but
I think what that was supposed to mean was basically direct brain control of machines,
a transfer of the control of the machine from from user to the machine.
UM. That was something that was that was being explored. One of
the papers were written on that. So so MOUF one was supposed to handle
these topics, and they were given the orders that it was not supposed to
be specifically UFOs, it was kind of to be camouflaged in that. So
they did the pilot studies and by the way, there were a team of
mufund's top people and I posted the names of some of them. And one
of the people that admitted on being on the team and write one of the
papers was Robert Powell, who was formerly mufund's scientific advisor and he since going
on to another organization, the Scientific Coalition for UAP Studies, and he he
didn't want to say much about it because all this work was done under nondisclosure
agreements. You know. He would say that you should ask Jan Harzan or
the former director, James carry In about that. And I did ask James
carry In and he was forthcoming about this, and Jan Harzen gave no response.
And it's interesting he was a participant in this and he said nothing about
it. And he said quite a bit about a tip and even had Louis
Elzando at his conference. But he's not acknowledged the relationship Moufan had with with
with Bass and you know, by extension through the Defense Intelligence Agency. And
it may be because of embarrassment, and it may be because of the non
disclosure agreement. I don't know, but I think that he does over the
public some comments on that. Was this this was going on before his time
as director. Now he was he was actually uh involved in the in the
negotiations with this he was. He was on the board of directors at the
time, so he was part of the decision making. And when James Carrion
left during this, he took over the relationship with with big Low's company,
so he was he was thoroughly involved in this, but it was James Carrying
was a director at the time. Now, some of the things he told
us about what we're meetings with Bigelow and how put off was there. Jeanques
Ballet was there, Calm Keller was there. And what was interesting about this
was that these people all have their areas of expertise, but in this instance
Bigelow was basically using them as contract negotiators and picking their bank their brains to
formulate the jobs Moufon would do. And it was like it was, in
my opinion, with the waste of their talent. You know, they should
have been doing their own research and things like that. But I guess he
works with people he trusts and then sometimes has them mopped the floors. So
in your opinion, what is this change about Moufon? Well, you know
that raises some interesting questions. You know, I think it may have violated
that the goals of the organization somewhat. And there's also the concern that there
were a nonprofit organization and they were doing this basically contract work for her.
And the way they reported the income, however, was as a donation,
and you know, technically speaking, that's not correct. So you know,
it's for a tax lawyer to say whether or not that was incorrect. But
I think they made a really bad choice in accepting this deal. Certainly,
they needed the money and they could continue their work with the funding if it
had worked out as they had hoped, but Bigelow was so restrictive in the
terms of the contract. He basically didn't allow them to profit from this where
it would make the organization any more robust. He wanted all the dollars to
go to these field investigations, and so there was anything left to make move
on any healthier. So and then when he eventually cut the funding and then
didn't renew after the first year, and it pretty much drove and broke there.
They had come to depend on this. They had people that were salary
that were just suddenly out of the jobs, and due to the nondisclosure agreement,
they couldn't tell the public why it was a big, big black eye
fore and also as a result is that there were rumors at the time there
were people saying, oh, Moufan has been sold to Bigelow, and that
wasn't true. But he didn't have involvement. And beyond what I mentioned too,
is he had access to their computerized they called it the case management system.
Now, anyone can go and look at the basics of it, but
a Moufon investigator has information beyond that, including witness identities, and you know,
it beyond what the public can see. And under this agreement, while
it was going on, Bigelow's people had access to that, and Moufon added
a disclaimer. They asked, you know, can we give your information to
a third party for the purpose of investigation. But they didn't tell that the
government wind up might wind up within information. So there was I think some
ethical concerns there about privacy during during the course of this. So you know,
there are a number of problems. Now, I think Moufond's heart might
have been in the right place, but I really think they got into a
bad relationship and it's certainly heard the financially and to damage your credibility. Now,
when getting back to Bigelow. Um, you know, so he spent
I don't know, three hundred plus thousand dollars, that's a long stretch away
from twenty two million and has when someone has contracted like that. I just
don't know how these things were. Does he have to like show the government
what he's using these funds for? And do we know what the rest of
the twenty two million dollars actually went for. I don't know what he had
to present to him exactly. We do know that something about what's been delivered
and one of the one of the we know that there's at least one move
on alleged landing case that was delivered to the Defense Intelligence Agency. But moving
on to the how some of the other money was spent, there were besides
move Find The other subcontractor that Bigelow used was how put Off's company, earth
Tech, and how put Off apparently directed going back to those twelve topics left
propulsion, directed energy weapons and such, he directed studies to be written which
were eventually used as now for Defense Intelligence research documents DERDS is what we'll call
him for short. But and those are available on the defense. I'm going
to botch this, but it's it's basically a private security network for the Defense
Intelligence Agency and the contractors and the other military and only they have access to
it. So these papers and there were written by some people that Kit Green.
Doctor Kitt Green is a long time UFO researchers, has been involved in
a lot of things from remote viewing to medical UFO research. He wrote a
paper and his is the most clearly related to UFOs. It's on injuries related
to animalous encounters and even the cash Landom case is mentioned in there's kind of
a benchmark. He discussed a number of historical cases. That's the only one
we can point to that's absolutely UFO related. Another one was on the drink
equation. And most of them are on aerospace topics that as we said,
that were you know, they either it was a legitimate aerospace research or it
was CAMOUFLO lodged. UFO research has as aerospace development and doctor Eric Davis wrote
several papers on on some you know, exotic topics like warmp drives and wormholes
and things like this, you know, very theoretical physics kind of things that
are beyond today's capabilities. And so this was this was done of the course
of two years and so, and those were contracted out at about two thousand
dollars a piece, so that's where part of the money spent. But even
so we were far short of the twenty two million. I did an accounting
of it and I got us to about nine million. So there are other
things that that we don't know. We're told that Bigelow built some facilities,
but we have no clear evidence of that. We know there's actually a building
that he had there's now for sale for about seven million that was built,
never occupied, and maybe some of them money went towards that, and when
the contract was axed, he just abandoned those plans. But the salaries alone,
and this fifty people of you know, would chiefly of scientists, that
must have been a significant amount. I think that would maybe be seven million
alone, seven and a half million something like that over the course of the
at least two years. So and but there again, once the funding was
cut, most of those people, except for the senior management, they were
they were immediately fired. I mean, it just it came to a full
almost a full stop in June of twenty ten. It continued beyond that on
some level, you know, the chief people involved. I wanted to just
to back up a little bit as a weird at side. So we were
talking about the Nimts case and the videos and the tik tac. One of
the witnesses of the tik tac was a Colonel oh now, Douglas Kurth.
His nickname was Cheeks. I think he was actually the first person to spot
it, and then later David Faber went out. Well. He was hired
by Robert Bigelow as the first employee for Big Little Aerospace in two thousand and
seven and he was the program manager. And a friends of mine, Keith
Masterfield and Mark Scotti, who's a French researcher, have found out that they
there was a BASS investigation in Brazil. A team. Two teams went there
and one of them was headed by by Douglas Kurth. He presented his card,
he identified himself as program manager. They were trying to find about Brazilian
cases and even find UFO evidence. So there's there's even photos of him meeting
investigators. So finally we've known almost nothing about what he did, and now
we have a clear example of one of his activities and his involvement at a
very high level in this and it's just so interesting that a prominent witness was
in a senior position in this organization and it can't be an accident. Yeah,
yeah, from right to understand, he's not talking to anyone that's trying.
He's got so many stories, you know, his UFO encounter alone and
then the work that he's done. But again he's he's bound at least on
the big low end of it by a nondisclosure agreement. Yeah. It just
kind of goes to show, you know, going back to the money part
of this thing, that you know, you can throw twenty two million dollars
at this topic and not really that you know, it's not about money.
Really a lot of it isn't with because of the nature of what a UFO
is. You know, it's fleeting, it's it's unpredictable, and uh you
know, I mean there are some people that have some good ideas with you
know, setting up these monitors you know, out out there that you know,
maybe can catch something and catch more information, but it's a program like
that can get axed because you know, what are they going to come up
with? Even if you throw a ton of money at it. It's very
hard, very hard to figure out. I would I'd love to see the
data they collected, and you know, we probably never will, but you
know, hopefully some of these people that were involved, some of them are
talking. You'll hear a little bit selective in a bit from from how it
put off, but he's not given too many secrets. And then the grand
scope of the at least the mass project. Lewis Alsando came in really late
on that, and and the story he tells is that the reason the contract
with Big was canceled was because they were focused on too many different areas and
whatever it was the Defense Intelligence Agency remained interested in was narrowly focused. And
we can only speculate, but perhaps it was the military cases like the nimits
and the cases that have followed that we have videos of. You know,
we don't know for sure. That's you know, hopefully we has some documentation
on that soon. But you know, there had to have been some good
information that that wasn't previously public. But it's it's locked up. So right
right, what about someone had mentioned earlier, what does to the Stars have
anything to do? I mean with Bigelow that there's no connection there? Right
there, there is a connection, but we don't know for sure now.
At one time, Tom DeLong was hinting that he was about to announce a
partnership with an aerospace company. That never happened. However, Robert Bigelow's daughter
tweeted out a picture of him along with Lewis Alessando and um Tom DeLong there
at Bass Facilities, so he was he was given a tour, So apparently
whatever he hoped might happen, or if there is a connection, it hasn't
been made public. But the real connection that we can say is the involvement
of some of the former players, like how put Off, who was there.
He was he was a member of Needs, he was a subcontractor at
at Bigelow. He was influential and instrumental in this all the way along.
And he's with to the Stars and is the co founder. I mean a
lot of people just think he's one of the team, but he's the co
founder of To the Stars Academy. So that's that's a real connection and the
kind of work they're doing. It is intended to continue. But you know,
whether or not there's a financial connection, I don't think so. But
there's a spiritual connection and a personnel connection. Yeah, yeah, amazing.
All right, well, Kurt, it's been a real pleasure. And if
you would go ahead and give out your is it two websites or three altogether?
There is Blue Glory Lines and then the Saucers at time Forgot, So
you've got the addresses up there and I hope people will check them out.
And by the way, I've probably watched some of these details, and if
anyone has any questions about this, I'd be glad to answer the questions and
give more information. Excellent, all right, Kurt, Well, thanks so
much. All right, thank you, I'll talk to you soon. Take
care. All right, all right, everyone, So that's it for the
show, Thanks so much for listening. Next week we have Sarah's Goals.
She's going to be on and she's going to be talking about her interesting book.
It's called They're Already Here ufl Culture and why we see Saucers and don't
forget to check out our blog over at our website and that is called the
UFO Crash in Aztec, New Mexico, and we also have T shirts.
You can check that out on the website as well. So until next week,
keep well and safe, keep social distance and keep your eyes to the sky,