WEBVTT 1 00:00:25.239 --> 00:00:29.519 Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm Martin willis your host, and 2 00:00:29.679 --> 00:00:34.039 I hope you are safe, healthy and happy wherever you are. Our guest 3 00:00:34.200 --> 00:00:38.560 for Kurt Collins. He's been on the show a few times, has been 4 00:00:38.640 --> 00:00:41.719 quite a while. It's been quite a while since he's been on. He's 5 00:00:41.759 --> 00:00:45.600 going to be discussing a few historic UFO cases of interest, the cash Land 6 00:00:45.640 --> 00:00:51.960 Room case and then a tip and things like that and the further on in 7 00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:55.960 the show. And when you're over at our website, we have a blog 8 00:00:56.039 --> 00:01:00.560 as usual from Charles Lear. This is the UFO crash and as Tech New 9 00:01:00.600 --> 00:01:07.120 Mexico. It's a very controversial story and he lays out his opinions and other 10 00:01:07.239 --> 00:01:14.359 most other opinions very effectively on that. Anyone can support the show and you 11 00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:18.760 will find that information again over at the website. You can get on our 12 00:01:18.799 --> 00:01:23.799 Facebook page and that's also icons are over there, and if you want to 13 00:01:23.799 --> 00:01:27.879 find out what's coming up on the shows, you can always go to the 14 00:01:27.959 --> 00:01:34.840 website at podcast ufo dot com. In the right hand sidebar, you will 15 00:01:34.879 --> 00:01:38.680 see a little place where you can put in your email address to get newsletters, 16 00:01:38.840 --> 00:01:42.200 so once a week you will get a copy of the blog and you 17 00:01:42.239 --> 00:01:47.920 will also get who's upcoming as far as a guest. But let's bring in 18 00:01:47.959 --> 00:01:49.560 our guests. Kurt, Welcome to the show. Hi Martin, good to 19 00:01:49.599 --> 00:01:53.879 be here. Yeah, Kurt, Now you you've been on a long time 20 00:01:53.920 --> 00:01:57.879 ago. But let's I know your background is if you were interested in UFOs 21 00:01:57.959 --> 00:02:01.319 when you're young and then kind of got away from it, if you could, 22 00:02:01.319 --> 00:02:07.639 why don't you tell the listening audience how that went? Well? It 23 00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:14.800 was it was I read every UFO book could get my hands on at the 24 00:02:14.800 --> 00:02:16.879 library. I didn't actually buy many of them, but one, the one 25 00:02:16.919 --> 00:02:23.039 I remember is that was Frank edwins Edwards book and uh, you know, 26 00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:27.400 I read that again and again, and you know, just I memorized wherever 27 00:02:27.800 --> 00:02:30.919 the section one the UFO books was in the library, so I went to 28 00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:34.439 a different one. I could go right to that section, and you know, 29 00:02:34.520 --> 00:02:37.240 and you know, other strange things of course too. And there really 30 00:02:37.240 --> 00:02:42.360 weren't very many, but um, you know, I followed the subject on 31 00:02:42.400 --> 00:02:45.719 television is as much as possible, and there used to be a lot more 32 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:51.840 programs, you know, pretty good mainstream network programming on UFOs, and that 33 00:02:52.280 --> 00:02:55.360 really fell off in later years. But I drifted away from the topic as 34 00:02:55.400 --> 00:03:01.479 I grew older, and then you know, Will experienced it mostly through entertainment, 35 00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:05.240 the movies and the X Files and things like that, and then later 36 00:03:05.719 --> 00:03:07.439 was drawn back to the topic and I thought, well, what is what's 37 00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:12.199 going on? What's what are the real things that that are behind this? 38 00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:15.159 You know what, There's there's so many stories, and so I became interested 39 00:03:15.199 --> 00:03:20.400 in sorting out the fact from the fiction. And that was around twenty eleven 40 00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:27.400 and I was pen pals with James Moseley, who did a Saucer Smere newsletter 41 00:03:27.479 --> 00:03:30.319 and he had been in the field since the early fifties, and he guided 42 00:03:30.439 --> 00:03:36.000 me and told me a lot of things about his experience and directed me to 43 00:03:36.520 --> 00:03:39.759 one of his favorite cases was a cash landrom case, and through his interest 44 00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:44.800 in that, I delved into that and have been interested in that ever since. 45 00:03:45.680 --> 00:03:51.120 Right And you know, for the long time listener, it was myself, 46 00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:57.039 you and Chris Lambright as well as Colby Landard Landrum came on the show, 47 00:03:57.319 --> 00:04:00.080 which is a very rare appearance by Colby. I don't think he's been 48 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:04.080 on too many shows that a podcast that I know of anyone, No, 49 00:04:04.479 --> 00:04:09.479 only yours only yours you were that was that was great and I know you 50 00:04:09.479 --> 00:04:14.560 you got um Calvin Parker to talk when he wasn't doing any media, so 51 00:04:14.800 --> 00:04:16.279 you know, both of those were great shows. And I think that was 52 00:04:16.279 --> 00:04:20.680 your first live show too. By the way, Uh, did we have 53 00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:25.800 technical difficulties? No? No, that actually went pretty well and especially for 54 00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:29.160 as many people involved. But yeah, that was so that was a great 55 00:04:29.160 --> 00:04:31.879 show. That was the first time I was able to contact Colby and I 56 00:04:32.319 --> 00:04:35.560 kept in touch with him for a while, but he moves around and dropped 57 00:04:35.560 --> 00:04:41.279 out a site, but you know, he's it was really it was really 58 00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:46.040 good to have his first hand testimony on that, and um, you know, 59 00:04:46.079 --> 00:04:49.000 and that that's exactly the kind of thing that I like is rather than 60 00:04:49.079 --> 00:04:54.279 here in the summary from UFO book and so often it's it's you know, 61 00:04:54.319 --> 00:04:58.319 it's even worse than secondhand. It gets passed down like legend. But if 62 00:04:58.360 --> 00:05:00.759 you can go back to the source, there a witness testimony, the original 63 00:05:00.839 --> 00:05:05.079 documents, I think that's the only chance we have of sorting out what's real 64 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:10.360 about something. Now. I really do think we spoke up well through email 65 00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:14.639 back and forth that I said, you know, I probably have thirty or 66 00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:17.680 so brand new listeners to the topic, and you know, the long time 67 00:05:17.720 --> 00:05:21.879 listeners are probably really tired of hearing the stories. But I think it's important 68 00:05:21.920 --> 00:05:27.360 that the new people that are listening, you know, can get a little 69 00:05:27.399 --> 00:05:30.079 background of a lot of people have no idea what we're talking about right now, 70 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:34.120 the Cash Ndrom case. So if you can, in a nutshell not 71 00:05:34.160 --> 00:05:38.079 to drive away the people that have heard this story many times, but as 72 00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:42.120 quickly as possible, can you go through how you know what exactly happened there? 73 00:05:42.920 --> 00:05:47.920 Okay? Unfairly short summary is this was a night near Christmas in December 74 00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:53.480 nineteen eighty was the twenty ninth that there were these two ladies, both in 75 00:05:53.519 --> 00:05:58.759 their fifties, Benny Cash and Vicky Landrum, and her grandson who was almost 76 00:05:58.759 --> 00:06:01.480 seven years old at the time, Holby Landrum, the guests we were mentioned 77 00:06:01.480 --> 00:06:08.319 in previously. They were out for the ladies wanted to play bingo that night, 78 00:06:08.519 --> 00:06:11.720 couldn't find a game because they didn't realize it was closed but in the 79 00:06:11.759 --> 00:06:16.360 time between Christmas and New Year's so instead they After having dinner, they were 80 00:06:16.360 --> 00:06:20.079 on their way home. They had gone from the city. This was in 81 00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:25.519 Texas. They lived in Dayton, Texas. They were in the nearby New 82 00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:29.759 Caney, Texas, and we're driving back through Huffman, and these are small 83 00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:32.680 towns, but just so I probably everyone knows a little bit about Houston. 84 00:06:32.920 --> 00:06:38.000 It wasn't that far from Houston, in particular the Houston Airport, so we 85 00:06:38.120 --> 00:06:42.720 probably about eighteen miles away or something like that. They saw a light through 86 00:06:42.759 --> 00:06:46.959 the trees, and it drew closer to them eventually and came down over the 87 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:51.319 road and it was this enormous shape. Fire spit from it, and it's 88 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:56.759 kind of unclear whether the object itself glowed or it was the light produced by 89 00:06:56.800 --> 00:07:00.279 the flames, but they said it lit up the sky like it was splitting 90 00:07:00.279 --> 00:07:03.800 open. And in fact, the ladies were both religious and thought maybe this 91 00:07:03.959 --> 00:07:09.120 was this was the biblical end times, the end of the world, and 92 00:07:09.160 --> 00:07:14.439 they were they're terribly frightened. They got out briefly. Betty Cash stayed out 93 00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:19.519 the longest and shielded her eyes from the brightness. And it was so bright 94 00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:26.120 they really couldn't make out the shape of just what they were, whatever was 95 00:07:26.240 --> 00:07:30.279 causing this light, And they felt the heat from it too, tremendous heat, 96 00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:35.480 and eventually Vicky and Colby. They kept pleading for Betty to get back 97 00:07:35.480 --> 00:07:40.079 in the car, which she eventually did. The object at that about that 98 00:07:40.120 --> 00:07:44.279 time began to rise, and it had a peculiar motion. I forgot to 99 00:07:44.600 --> 00:07:46.600 describe that, and there are a lot of details I'll leave out, but 100 00:07:46.839 --> 00:07:50.680 it would kind of rise and fall as at the flames. It didn't seem 101 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:55.519 so much to be propulsion, but it did coincide with that, and eventually 102 00:07:55.519 --> 00:08:01.399 it lifted up, kind of turned over and flew away slowly, almost as 103 00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:07.079 if it was floating off like a balloon. But and this is where one 104 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:11.600 area of controversy comes in. Young Coleby claimed that he saw helicopters the whole 105 00:08:11.639 --> 00:08:16.800 time, and the ladies said they only saw the helicopters later and from a 106 00:08:16.879 --> 00:08:20.639 distance at that point, and when it moved away, it had been blocking 107 00:08:20.680 --> 00:08:24.839 the roads. So they drove on down and observed in a couple of other 108 00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:31.199 locations, and at one of them they saw the helicopters much more closely, 109 00:08:31.319 --> 00:08:37.480 and they were double rotors andook helicopters, which are primarily used by the military, 110 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:41.759 or were at that time. So that convinced him that whatever was happening, 111 00:08:41.960 --> 00:08:46.399 the military was aware. Of it. Eventually it passed. They went 112 00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:52.320 home and later that night they began feeling bad and Betty Cash became ill afterwards 113 00:08:52.519 --> 00:09:00.159 and was hospitalized. And from there there's some controversy because the UFO investigators are 114 00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:05.799 convinced that what she suffered was radiation exposure. The actual medical diagnosis was skin 115 00:09:05.919 --> 00:09:11.320 problems and alopecia arrada, which is a hair loss, which is another kind 116 00:09:11.360 --> 00:09:16.159 of skin related condition. But she had flew like symptoms and all the hair 117 00:09:16.240 --> 00:09:22.360 loss and this this diarrhea and vomiting and everything did resemble the symptoms of radiation 118 00:09:22.440 --> 00:09:28.240 poisoning. So that's one of the reasons we can't shake that association, whether 119 00:09:28.279 --> 00:09:31.399 it's it's actually true or not. So that's um, there's much more to 120 00:09:31.399 --> 00:09:35.759 the story. That's that's the basic situation and the players involved. Yeah, 121 00:09:35.960 --> 00:09:41.639 when I was when I had colbyon and you joined me and all that. 122 00:09:41.240 --> 00:09:48.519 Right after that, I was contacted by someone that said he definitely knew this 123 00:09:48.639 --> 00:09:52.399 was a military experimental craft. To remember, I pulled you in on that 124 00:09:52.440 --> 00:09:58.080 conversation. Do you remember any of them? Well? Yes, And what 125 00:09:58.159 --> 00:10:01.440 was so strange about that? There were there were two people within about a 126 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:07.720 week and they both claimed to have witnessed this in their youth, and it 127 00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:11.519 was so strange that after all these years and all the television coverage that they 128 00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:16.840 would they would um contact. But I did look into both of the stories 129 00:10:16.279 --> 00:10:22.759 and they seemed plausible. But from a investigator's viewpoint, they didn't provide any 130 00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:28.159 details that weren't already known, and you know, I'd want to accuse them 131 00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:31.360 of being imitators, but you know, we have to there was there was, 132 00:10:31.720 --> 00:10:35.879 you know, we what we really hoped for was new, verifiable details, 133 00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:37.679 and they couldn't provide that. But you know, I have to say 134 00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:43.159 they seemed sincere. So you know, I have saved all the information and 135 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:46.159 have considered how I could use it. I mean, I don't want to 136 00:10:46.159 --> 00:10:52.639 add to the to the controversy and misinformation on the case, but um yeah, 137 00:10:52.759 --> 00:10:56.840 it's it's there are that. That's the thing that has has endured is 138 00:10:56.879 --> 00:11:03.279 the thought that this was some sort of um military craft or experiment as some 139 00:11:03.399 --> 00:11:07.519 kind, and that's what the witnesses themselves believed. And you know, we've 140 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:13.480 yet to find any evidence of that, and no no classified craft that resembles 141 00:11:13.480 --> 00:11:20.399 it has has shown up. But it's um. It could have possibly been 142 00:11:20.679 --> 00:11:26.919 some type of nuclear propulsion possibly, you know, I mean, if they 143 00:11:26.919 --> 00:11:31.519 did get radiation burns, you know, and this was nineteen eighty I'm not 144 00:11:31.559 --> 00:11:35.120 sure what they had going on, you know, as far as the black 145 00:11:35.159 --> 00:11:39.120 budget, you know, secret programs that they were, you know, trying 146 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:43.879 to experiment with. But I know that I do believe there was some type 147 00:11:43.879 --> 00:11:50.440 of nuclear powered propulsion that they were experimenting with or am I off on that. 148 00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:54.679 No, that's that's true, but that was much earlier, and they 149 00:11:54.679 --> 00:11:58.440 had pretty much discarded that because they what they had trying to do was, 150 00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:01.559 you know, they had nuclear sub rains and they tried to have a nuclear 151 00:12:01.039 --> 00:12:07.399 powered airplane, but the shielding was made it so heavy the thing couldn't really 152 00:12:07.399 --> 00:12:11.360 fly and it was dangerous to the pilots, so they pretty much scrapped that. 153 00:12:11.639 --> 00:12:16.360 But you know, they did experiment. It would take some real technological 154 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:22.679 leaps that were not aware of. But the one of the things that since 155 00:12:22.919 --> 00:12:28.279 since we talked, I located some documents from the Texas Department of Health. 156 00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:33.159 Their radiation bureau went out and examined the scene, and they found no trace 157 00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:39.000 of the kind of radiation that something nuclear would have produced, So if there 158 00:12:39.159 --> 00:12:43.720 was some radiation, it's more likely to have been something like pulsed microwave, 159 00:12:45.080 --> 00:12:48.279 which you know there has been discussions of using that to propel craft, so 160 00:12:48.399 --> 00:12:56.120 it's more likely it was something like that. Even possibly if the craft caused 161 00:12:56.120 --> 00:13:01.960 their injuries, that it could have been like some residue of propulsion or a 162 00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:05.039 weapon system, you know, something chemical is what I mean, So you 163 00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:11.679 know it. The real problem is the helicopters could never be traced, and 164 00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:16.720 you would think that that those would be the easiest thing, but the problem 165 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:20.879 with that is, um, this was during the Christmas break and it was 166 00:13:20.919 --> 00:13:26.639 a skeleton crew. The military resources we had really devoted towards this was during 167 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:33.399 the time there were hostages in irand so they most of the resource has been 168 00:13:33.279 --> 00:13:35.759 aimed in that direction. You know. As it turned out, they were 169 00:13:35.799 --> 00:13:41.960 eventually released and that wasn't necessary. So the cases of pozzible, I mean, 170 00:13:41.080 --> 00:13:48.120 everyone that studies it is pretty much convinced that the witnesses are credible and 171 00:13:48.559 --> 00:13:52.679 helicopters could have been there, although we can't prove it, and we know 172 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:58.279 that Betty Cash's injuries were definitely real, but we can't tie it up and 173 00:13:58.360 --> 00:14:01.159 connect at all. So it's an enduring puzzle now. And one of the 174 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:05.840 things I wanted to say about it is that although what we can't solve it, 175 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:09.120 we have a lot of evidence and documents and I've collected that at the 176 00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:13.759 site there. I have one of the things people might enjoy seeing the videos 177 00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:16.919 that have been made over the years, and I don't have them all, 178 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:20.000 but I don't have a collection of those. But as far as the documents 179 00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:24.879 themselves, we have the original witness testimony that was given to the investigator. 180 00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:28.519 There are some we don't have the original medical records, but we have the 181 00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:33.840 summary of them from doctor Peter Rank who examined them, some correspondence between the 182 00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:39.120 original people, and so there's a lot of firsthand data on it, and 183 00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:41.840 you know, but it's a you know, this was a real case with 184 00:14:41.960 --> 00:14:46.960 real people. They suffered consequences, and you know, we can study it. 185 00:14:46.039 --> 00:14:52.080 And the military angle is something that's that's absolutely interesting. Because the witnesses 186 00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:58.480 felt that they were injured by this, they pursued a legal case and it 187 00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:05.320 was ultimately dismissed. Been in the course of investigating it, every branch of 188 00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:09.919 military service and NASSA I was questioned about whether they had some involvement or if 189 00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:15.799 they had a craft that matched the the UFO. But you know, they 190 00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:20.159 all said no, of course, but um it touched you know. And 191 00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:24.799 the way part of part of this investigation got started was the media attention. 192 00:15:26.039 --> 00:15:31.120 Um Ron Widen senator. I think he was a representative, not a senator. 193 00:15:31.639 --> 00:15:35.639 He actually asked the Air Force initially then the Army to look into this. 194 00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:39.240 So it's one of the few times a politician has been involved. And 195 00:15:39.320 --> 00:15:43.360 all the branches of service, so it really uh, you know, there 196 00:15:43.399 --> 00:15:48.279 was a big reaction from the United States government and the military on this. 197 00:15:48.919 --> 00:15:54.480 Do you think that the military um would have gotten all the straight answers if 198 00:15:54.480 --> 00:16:00.279 this was a say, a contracted you know, black ops, secret propulsion 199 00:16:00.440 --> 00:16:04.600 type of situation. Do you think they would if they I mean, it 200 00:16:04.639 --> 00:16:11.559 seems to me reasonably that they would indeed get any answers that they asked. 201 00:16:12.159 --> 00:16:17.000 Is that is that? So? Do you to agree with that or do 202 00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:22.159 you think they would could clam up about it if it was a private company. 203 00:16:22.480 --> 00:16:30.440 The private angle is interesting because that would possibly prevent them from getting all 204 00:16:30.519 --> 00:16:33.480 the information. But they did. They did make a sincere effort it was 205 00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:38.720 the department. The Army Inspector General George Saran was the one that conducted the 206 00:16:38.759 --> 00:16:45.720 investigation and he checked with all the branches as the service. This was independent 207 00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:51.039 of the attempted lawsuit. He went to Houston, he met with Vicky Landham. 208 00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:55.200 By that time, Betty Cash had moved with family to Alabama, but 209 00:16:55.279 --> 00:16:57.720 he didn't talk to her on the phone. And he went to all the 210 00:16:57.840 --> 00:17:04.559 local bases and trying to penetrate any classified program, but he found no evidence 211 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:11.400 of the helicopters. But it is interesting at the same time, you know, 212 00:17:11.400 --> 00:17:18.920 I mentioned to help the helicopters and the Army. Where the original rescue 213 00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:25.000 attempt for the hostages for I Rand took place was an Area fifty one. 214 00:17:25.519 --> 00:17:30.319 So there is a slight Area fifty one connection there and it was due in 215 00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:34.920 part to that that the first mentioned for substantial mention of of Area fifty one 216 00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:37.720 as a secret base came out. And then of course later it was tied 217 00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:44.160 to Bible Lazar and other things like that. But I don't know, that's 218 00:17:44.200 --> 00:17:48.160 been one of the legends. And I know some of your listeners, I 219 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:53.839 know you were familiar with the Rick Dodi, the infamous disinformation agent. He 220 00:17:53.960 --> 00:18:00.680 got involved with this case, tampering with his case early on, and he 221 00:18:00.759 --> 00:18:07.839 promoted the military experiment, in particular the nuclear military experiment angle on this and 222 00:18:08.599 --> 00:18:11.039 you know, I don't know if this was based on rumors he heard, 223 00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:15.160 or if this was an agenda his or just for attention, but you know 224 00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:19.279 he has promoted that ever since, and with only the slight amendment of the 225 00:18:19.319 --> 00:18:26.480 fact that sometimes he claims that it was nuclear powered reverse engineered alien technology, 226 00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:33.079 So you know it's and there's no evidence of either of those, but you 227 00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:37.160 know, it's there's there's something real there that happened. You know, certainly 228 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:45.000 a lot of wild theories. And you know, the women went to their 229 00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:52.160 to their graves, believe in everything would happen to them. They never substantially 230 00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:56.119 changed their stories. You know, a few details drift and might have been 231 00:18:56.119 --> 00:19:00.240 exaggerated by emotion, and Colby Landrum sticks to the story and and he feels 232 00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:06.279 very bitter about the whole experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think 233 00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:10.000 you know part of it is you know, um, was it his aunt 234 00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:14.759 that the really sick or was it his mother? Actually? Uh that was 235 00:19:14.920 --> 00:19:19.039 um Betty Cash was not a blood relation. She was a friend friend of 236 00:19:19.079 --> 00:19:26.440 his grandmother. So and you know his grandmother. Um, neither he or 237 00:19:26.839 --> 00:19:32.039 his grandmother suffered a severe symptoms, but they had flu like symptoms. But 238 00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:36.240 Betty Cash had problems the rest of her life. Yeah, so yeah, 239 00:19:36.279 --> 00:19:41.839 that's that. And uh, I know, wren't they trying to was it 240 00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:52.279 was Betty trying to get compensation for her medical treatments she did and the the 241 00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:56.000 only thing she actually got was just her normal medicare you know she did have 242 00:19:56.079 --> 00:20:00.279 some of her bills paid through that and that's seldomensioned, but that would that's 243 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:07.119 true. And they attempted to sue the government for I think it was ten 244 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:12.759 million for Betty and five million each for Vicky and Colby, and I don't 245 00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:21.920 know that they wanted their day in court. And when Chris Lambright interviewed Vicky 246 00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:25.519 in nineteen eighty five, she said that if there was an offer of a 247 00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:29.200 settlement, she wasn't sure she would take it because she wanted the truth to 248 00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:33.319 come out and for this to be presented in court. And she sounded sincere 249 00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:37.319 in saying that. But I think from the lawyer that was handling the case, 250 00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:41.920 and Peter Gerston was the one who technically filed it. I think most 251 00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:47.519 of the actual work was done there locally by a lawyer sheet in Texas. 252 00:20:48.039 --> 00:20:55.640 But he's on record as saying that he thought that by taking this to court, 253 00:20:55.880 --> 00:21:00.039 the government would settle, and so I think he never really felt like 254 00:21:00.039 --> 00:21:03.839 he could win the case. There wasn't a lot of evidence. There was 255 00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:10.960 testimony, but not the evidence that would persuade a jury. Yeah, yeah, 256 00:21:11.079 --> 00:21:14.680 that's that's really something. Well. I think one of the strangest parts 257 00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:18.680 of this, if it's really related to it, is that they actually dug 258 00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:23.359 up the road shortly after, right, and they repaved the road. Did 259 00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:29.359 I get, Well, you're you're you're right in remembering that. But that's 260 00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:33.799 that's another point of controversy because you know, even the witnesses thought said later 261 00:21:34.759 --> 00:21:40.680 because the road was repaved, but apparently it was another year or so afterwards. 262 00:21:40.839 --> 00:21:45.200 I see, And so the story kind of it kind of grew where 263 00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:48.039 it was done like, you know, the next day or a week later 264 00:21:48.119 --> 00:21:52.359 or something like that. But that's that's kind of one of the myths have 265 00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:56.039 been attached to this. I see. Did were there any UFO investigators at 266 00:21:56.039 --> 00:22:00.559 the time really looking into this? And if so, they go to the 267 00:22:00.599 --> 00:22:08.240 site. It's tragic the way that happened. So at first Betty and and 268 00:22:08.359 --> 00:22:14.880 Vicky they felt what had happened was so strange. This is something that I 269 00:22:14.920 --> 00:22:18.000 can't fully explained if they thought it was military. I don't know why they 270 00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:22.359 chose to hide this, but I guess they were afraid they wouldn't be believed, 271 00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:26.079 and because you know, they never thought of this as a UFO man 272 00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:27.599 from ours kind of thing. In fact, they kind of laughed at that. 273 00:22:29.240 --> 00:22:33.640 So they chose to keep it secret. And it was only during that 274 00:22:33.359 --> 00:22:37.200 when Betty continued to be sick and had to go back to the hospital for 275 00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:41.160 a second visit, that she told her doctor. Actually it was Colby that 276 00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:47.400 that told that that the problem probably came from the UFO they saw or they 277 00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:49.960 questioned if it could have. So that's how that. So it was almost 278 00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:57.519 a month later before the that came out. And after that the Vicky Lander 279 00:22:57.680 --> 00:23:03.559 got the number for the National u A Reporting Center. She called and they 280 00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:08.119 passed the number onto the UFO organization. It was APRO in their extent now 281 00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:14.720 and they they dropped the ball and eventually it was passed on the move on 282 00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:18.680 and almost then it was almost two months later before the UFO investigation began, 283 00:23:19.240 --> 00:23:25.799 so it you know, it was the trail kind of went cold. If 284 00:23:25.839 --> 00:23:29.680 they had if that had been exposed and they had gotten on it the same 285 00:23:29.720 --> 00:23:33.640 week, maybe they would have found other witnesses. Uh, you know, 286 00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:36.880 they looked for other witnesses and didn't find them. But so there was there 287 00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:44.839 was that there was a unfortunate passage of time there and so even maybe there 288 00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:51.000 was some of the witnesses deep memories details were lost. Wow wow. Um. 289 00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:55.759 So let's let's get We're going to cover you know, several different topics 290 00:23:56.119 --> 00:23:59.599 here and there's not going to be any phone calls unfortunately today. But let's 291 00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:06.000 let's talk about you had what was it called something about the saucers. Um, 292 00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:11.559 it's the saucers, right, the saucers that time forgot. And so 293 00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:15.599 the way I got interested in that was first of all, looking at the 294 00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:21.880 at the cash landom case. I try to investigate only that, but then 295 00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:25.440 there have been other cases where they have been bright UFOs. There have been 296 00:24:25.519 --> 00:24:29.839 other cases of radiation exposure. Some of them go back to the fifties or 297 00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:33.519 the early UFO history. So I kind of had to to study all UFO 298 00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:37.599 history, and doing that, I found lots of lots of interesting cases that 299 00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:41.839 have pretty much been forgotten. You know. We know these headline cases that 300 00:24:41.960 --> 00:24:47.440 Barty and Benny Hill cases, the big headline, top tier cases, but 301 00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:49.839 there're been a lot of interesting cases. Some of them are weird, some 302 00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:53.480 of them are hoaxes, and some of them are you know, unexplainable and 303 00:24:53.519 --> 00:25:00.839 as good as anything that's in the news today. So I've I've tried to 304 00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:03.359 present that and also some of the figures involved. And there's a series we 305 00:25:03.400 --> 00:25:08.759 do the ufologists at time forgot There's some people that helped establish the credibility of 306 00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:14.880 the topic, but they've been eclipsed and kind of forgotten. So I look 307 00:25:14.920 --> 00:25:17.920 at look at some of those things and uh, you know, and some 308 00:25:17.960 --> 00:25:22.119 of the stories are comical. There. There's some some hoaxers that um that 309 00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:26.920 they just wouldn't believe. Some of those weren't big, big newsmakers. Some 310 00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:30.000 of them were still hearing about, like um, Silas Newton was the one 311 00:25:30.039 --> 00:25:34.759 behind the Aztec case and that's where you you um have a have an article 312 00:25:34.759 --> 00:25:40.400 on your your blog about that case. Now, So that was that's actually 313 00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:45.480 when people hear the roswelve story. It's basically this was the first draft of 314 00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:48.839 it. This was the crashed UFO story with bodies recovered, metal examined and 315 00:25:48.920 --> 00:25:53.279 everything, and you know it. You know, some people believe both are 316 00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:57.039 true. Some people believe that one is a cover story for the other, 317 00:25:57.519 --> 00:26:03.359 but the Silence Newton version is almost certainly a hoax. So and he was 318 00:26:04.279 --> 00:26:10.359 he was an old man and a swindler. Then went back to the nineteen 319 00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:14.559 thirties. He was selling fake devices that sold old detectors, and when the 320 00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:18.200 flying stores so flying saucers story came along, he said, Hey, these 321 00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:25.119 are powered by the technology from the flying saucers. So it was an understand 322 00:26:25.240 --> 00:26:32.079 art. Yeah, yeah, I know the Ramseys are they are They're pretty 323 00:26:32.079 --> 00:26:37.240 convinced that that's a solid case. I'm totally on the fence of it defense 324 00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:40.480 about the whole thing. The more I've you know, looked into it, 325 00:26:40.680 --> 00:26:47.000 it's it's it's one of those that it's kind of hard sometimes when something kind 326 00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:51.240 of fades into a myth um and then it becomes believable and like in a 327 00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:55.599 cycle, you know, Uh, it's so hard to separate them. Let's 328 00:26:55.640 --> 00:26:57.759 hear some of the stories. Um, you said, there were some really 329 00:26:57.799 --> 00:27:02.440 great stories that kind of you know, time kind of forgot, but let's 330 00:27:02.440 --> 00:27:04.079 hear some of them that are the more some of the more interesting ones. 331 00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:10.599 Well, one of the things that um, while I'm stalling to remember one, 332 00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:14.480 I'll tell you about this. There are also a number of cases of 333 00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:18.559 man made UFOs, and the idea was floated that the UFOs are actually a 334 00:27:18.599 --> 00:27:22.920 military project. You know, we're still talking about with that with the cash 335 00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:26.880 Landom case, and some people really thought that was the answer behind it, 336 00:27:26.920 --> 00:27:30.880 that there was the development of that, and there were also some hoaxes associated 337 00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:34.920 that, and some of these were even seemed to veend by military personnel where 338 00:27:34.960 --> 00:27:41.440 they where they welded pieces of airplane wings together and painted stencil numbers on them 339 00:27:41.559 --> 00:27:44.400 that made it look like it was a secret project, and they would they 340 00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:47.759 would hide these and you know, maybe set off some fireworks to make it 341 00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:51.039 look like a crash. So that that happened then. I think that was 342 00:27:51.319 --> 00:27:55.119 near Amarillo, Texas was one of those. But there were also some kids 343 00:27:55.160 --> 00:28:00.160 that did similar to things to that, and it got complicated because there or 344 00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:04.920 rewards being offered for flying saucers. So some people claimed to have seen it. 345 00:28:06.279 --> 00:28:10.519 Some of these stunts were probably not actually intended to win the award, 346 00:28:10.599 --> 00:28:15.799 but to gain attention because you know, well you your background in art history, 347 00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:19.720 you know there's a big problem with counterfeits, and UFOs are no exception. 348 00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:25.079 Yeah, Now, who was actually offering them money for like a reward? 349 00:28:26.359 --> 00:28:30.880 There were there were three in nineteen forty seven, and I can only 350 00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:37.079 remember there was one of them. Was there was the equivalent of an adventurers 351 00:28:37.160 --> 00:28:41.200 Club. They put up a thousand dollars there was. I've written an article 352 00:28:41.240 --> 00:28:45.720 about it, but that's a details. Yeah, three three. I don't 353 00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:48.279 know if there's a way to win all three prizes, but you know, 354 00:28:48.279 --> 00:28:52.119 three thousand dollars was a lot at the time. And but you know the 355 00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:53.640 catchways you had to bring, at least for one of them, was you 356 00:28:53.640 --> 00:28:57.000 had to bring a saucer or a piece of it there, so you know, 357 00:28:57.079 --> 00:29:02.720 you couldn't just have a photo. Yeah, so that was that was 358 00:29:03.799 --> 00:29:07.039 that was a motivation, and it got headlines. Whenever there's money involved, 359 00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:15.400 it gets makes for headlines. Um and uh uh, let's see, oh 360 00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:18.920 there was there was a weird case and this wasn't This was was almost the 361 00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:22.759 UFOs we were almost an incidental thing in this. But there was a hypnotist 362 00:29:22.839 --> 00:29:30.039 in the fifties, this Jay Z and he he hypnotized for a performance in 363 00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:33.480 front of an audience. He hypnotized a man into saying that he had seen 364 00:29:33.519 --> 00:29:38.920 a flying saucerer and hypnotized him to go report it to the police in the 365 00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:45.279 fire department for comedy. The man did so, and I don't know how 366 00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:48.680 long his show was that he could do this. Well, in the process 367 00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:52.359 of doing this, apparently the man believed and did this. Um the police 368 00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:56.000 thought he was a nut. He got it. They get into a fist 369 00:29:56.039 --> 00:29:59.119 fight with him. He wound up getting hurt and going to the hospital. 370 00:29:59.240 --> 00:30:00.920 And so what kind of started off as a goofy story, you know, 371 00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:04.920 kind of took a tragic turn. And this this man was the victim of 372 00:30:04.920 --> 00:30:11.200 this. And it was all just because this hypnotist was exploiting the UFO topic 373 00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:19.920 as a joke for entertainment. And we see the newspapers have also exploited the 374 00:30:19.960 --> 00:30:26.119 topic, I mean since the very beginning, and people started advertising flying saucer 375 00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:30.000 specials at They're diner, and you know, it's just to cash in on 376 00:30:30.039 --> 00:30:36.759 the topic, and they sold Flying Saucer haircuts and hats for ladies and just 377 00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:42.559 everything, and it was and they would drop ten ten plates with advertising slogans 378 00:30:42.599 --> 00:30:48.440 from airplanes for advertising and so you know, all this stuff kind of it 379 00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:55.480 it maybe creates more awareness, but it also kind of spreads the joke factor. 380 00:30:56.200 --> 00:31:02.119 Yeah, but also it's almost like it it shows it's becoming part of 381 00:31:02.119 --> 00:31:07.799 the pop culture of the time, and which you know could also mean, 382 00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:11.559 you know, people may think they're seeing UFO when they're not. You know, 383 00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:17.039 there was that influence too, which is not always good. You know, 384 00:31:17.200 --> 00:31:23.880 that's that's true. And it but just within days of the Kenneth Arnal 385 00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:30.680 sighting, which you know that happened, he was sincere about whatever we saw. 386 00:31:30.799 --> 00:31:33.960 We don't know exactly what it was, but within days there were so 387 00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:38.960 many fakes and jokes and things that came up. And the exploitation too by 388 00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:44.799 the newspaper media. They found out right away that flying Saucers would sell newspapers, 389 00:31:44.839 --> 00:31:48.279 and so one of the things we can fault them for is that they 390 00:31:48.319 --> 00:31:52.720 included a lot of low grade sidings. If there was if there's someone who's 391 00:31:52.920 --> 00:31:56.680 called saw a bird out of the corner of their eye that was good enough 392 00:31:56.720 --> 00:32:01.119 for them to call it the flying saucer and the headline. And whereas before 393 00:32:01.359 --> 00:32:05.920 if there was like a mysterious light seen on a hill, they might call 394 00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:07.839 that a ghost light or a spook light. Well, now it was a 395 00:32:07.880 --> 00:32:14.599 flying saucer on the hill. So they really exploited the topic and it and 396 00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:17.880 so you know, as a UFO Storian trying to go back through these old 397 00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:22.039 headlines, you have a lot of false hits, things that aren't really good 398 00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:25.720 reports at all. Yeah. Yeah, well, you know you look at 399 00:32:27.799 --> 00:32:30.400 you look at like the big cases of the Kenneth Arnold and then the Maori 400 00:32:30.519 --> 00:32:36.839 Island that you know, there's controversy. You know, it's kind of controversial 401 00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:42.720 whether that really happened or not. I still heard both sides of the story 402 00:32:42.759 --> 00:32:46.759 on that one. And then um Roswell was there, but it was a 403 00:32:46.759 --> 00:32:51.200 flash in the pan. It was gone for many years because it was kind 404 00:32:51.240 --> 00:32:55.000 of you know, um we were told that it was a weather balloon basically, 405 00:32:55.039 --> 00:32:59.519 and and you know, move on. So that kind of was out 406 00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:02.440 of the lime. And then you get into the nineteen fifty two when there 407 00:33:02.480 --> 00:33:06.559 was a lot of sightings in the Capital sightings and all that, But was 408 00:33:06.559 --> 00:33:10.720 there anything in between nineteen forty seven, say in nineteen fifty two that was 409 00:33:10.759 --> 00:33:15.480 like a really big, you know UFO event. I I just can't think 410 00:33:15.480 --> 00:33:20.000 of anything. Well, I'll jog your memory. You'll remember this. The 411 00:33:20.079 --> 00:33:23.079 Thomas Mantel case. Oh yes, yeah, So his his death. Now, 412 00:33:23.160 --> 00:33:29.359 see, that was one of the things that death makes it real and 413 00:33:29.400 --> 00:33:31.720 that's something people can relate to. And you know that the tragedy of that 414 00:33:32.359 --> 00:33:36.279 got a lot of people interested. And there were a lot of wild rumors 415 00:33:36.319 --> 00:33:38.799 about that too, that it was like a ray beam or his his his 416 00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:45.519 plane was disintegrated, and you know, there there's still a lot of controversy 417 00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:50.480 over whether you know, he just flew to high without oxygen or if if 418 00:33:50.519 --> 00:33:54.880 something else happened. So m you know, every UFO case there's a battle 419 00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:58.640 over it. There there are champions. I mean, it's some of them 420 00:33:58.759 --> 00:34:02.000 are some of the the most ridiculous cases. But that's that's the one that 421 00:34:02.039 --> 00:34:07.559 perplexed me that even some of the les the least credible cases, the things 422 00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:13.559 that should be in the dust ben But I can understand why people are still 423 00:34:13.559 --> 00:34:17.199 concerned with rosewell in these main cases. But you know, there are some 424 00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:22.039 though that should have been put away. I mean some of the cases later, 425 00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:25.719 like well Georgia Damski from the nineteen fifties he claimed to have seen a 426 00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:31.119 flying saucerer and there were some several secondary witnesses, but these basically were his 427 00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:37.559 disciples and his well when you say cult, you'll think of the worst to 428 00:34:37.639 --> 00:34:40.800 start a call, but you know, his little religious teaching group, and 429 00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:45.079 you know they were they were followers of his, and they all kind of 430 00:34:45.079 --> 00:34:52.719 had this spiritual belief that predated the message that the men from Venus was giving 431 00:34:52.760 --> 00:35:00.000 him. And I really believe in his case he used flying saucers to promote 432 00:35:00.360 --> 00:35:05.199 his spiritual beliefs, and people more more interested in flying saucers, and they 433 00:35:05.199 --> 00:35:07.440 would say, well, if we're supposed to all be peaceful and live together 434 00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:14.320 and not have nuclear energy, that message would be more convincing coming from an 435 00:35:14.679 --> 00:35:20.880 advanced civilization from beyond the planet than it would from just a guy live in 436 00:35:20.960 --> 00:35:27.400 a Palamar Gardens Hamburger stand. And there was Van tassel Is, that was 437 00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:30.639 that his name, Fantassa that well, you know something interesting about him. 438 00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:36.199 There were a number of people in the aviation business. He was a former 439 00:35:36.239 --> 00:35:45.280 employee of Blockheat, and so was Rafeo Angelucci botched his name, but and 440 00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:49.039 I think there was at least one or two others, maybe Daniel Fry, 441 00:35:49.320 --> 00:35:52.079 and all these people claimed contact. Well, the things they have in common. 442 00:35:52.119 --> 00:35:57.239 It was California, as it did Georgia Dampskin. There was a lot 443 00:35:57.280 --> 00:36:01.840 of spiritual beliefs, New Age kind of things going on there and they all 444 00:36:01.880 --> 00:36:06.920 had that in common. And you know, I don't I don't know. 445 00:36:07.039 --> 00:36:12.920 I think all of those their stories were a mixture of genuine belief and wishful 446 00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:17.760 thinking, but they they dominated the scene and the series. You know, 447 00:36:17.800 --> 00:36:22.400 hopefully all your your listeners know about about Major Donald Kehoe because he's the one 448 00:36:22.440 --> 00:36:28.960 that that really helped propel the UFO topping and it does something a little more 449 00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:36.039 serious, and he connected with them military witnesses and solid cases and try to 450 00:36:36.079 --> 00:36:38.559 talk to pilots, you know, the sort of thing that Leslie Kane is 451 00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:45.239 trying to do today. And so he wanted the top to be presented credibly. 452 00:36:45.320 --> 00:36:51.519 So he had a tremendous battle with Georgia Damski and these contactees and they 453 00:36:51.559 --> 00:36:54.599 were claiming, you know, to regularly go off on space flights in these 454 00:36:54.639 --> 00:37:00.599 ships, and it was just it was so silly. And some of them 455 00:37:00.599 --> 00:37:05.679 had romances. And one guy, um oh, man, let's see if 456 00:37:05.719 --> 00:37:12.119 I can remember his name, he had a he had a dog bow a 457 00:37:12.280 --> 00:37:15.719 Martian dog, I believe it was, and he brought back tufts of his 458 00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:19.920 hair. Um oh, I can't remember. He had a spacecraft convention. 459 00:37:21.320 --> 00:37:23.159 I've gone blank on his name, but he was he had his day of 460 00:37:23.199 --> 00:37:27.039 fame. And all these people they got on, they got on the talk 461 00:37:27.079 --> 00:37:32.000 shows of the day, and they they they pretty much they almost drowned out 462 00:37:32.519 --> 00:37:40.519 the UFO topic permanently as a scientific um scientifically respectable topic. Yeah. Do 463 00:37:40.559 --> 00:37:44.519 you think that was there was any purpose to that or do you think it 464 00:37:44.599 --> 00:37:50.440 was just the nature of what they were doing? Most of these people, 465 00:37:50.480 --> 00:37:53.599 I think we were out probably for attention. Some of them knew that there 466 00:37:53.679 --> 00:37:57.440 was some money to be made off at you know, And there were there 467 00:37:57.480 --> 00:38:00.440 were probably dozens of them. I can think of I can think of a 468 00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:05.119 dozen, although don't ask me to name each one. Howard Minger was another 469 00:38:05.159 --> 00:38:09.880 one of them. A lot of guys named George, George fantastically and oh 470 00:38:09.679 --> 00:38:14.679 no, now I can't think of another. George Truman. Beethuram was another. 471 00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:21.280 And you know, some people have speculated that some of these people were 472 00:38:21.719 --> 00:38:28.159 boosted or supported or maybe given additional attention to discredit the topping, but there 473 00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:31.800 are plenty enough people around to discredit on their own, so they couldn't have 474 00:38:31.800 --> 00:38:37.519 needed much help. When you were speaking about Donald Kehoe, and there is 475 00:38:37.559 --> 00:38:44.000 a great interview of him with Mike Wallace interviewed him back in nineteen fifty eight, 476 00:38:44.239 --> 00:38:45.960 and you can find that on YouTube. It's a really great interview. 477 00:38:46.119 --> 00:38:52.639 I think Wallace was smoking during interview, something you don't see too often, 478 00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:57.440 but anyone can find that on YouTube. Is a great interview. Kehoe was 479 00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:01.559 like really, you know, trying to make an effort for this topic to 480 00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:06.119 be taken seriously, and I think he did a pretty good job at it. 481 00:39:07.639 --> 00:39:12.239 He did, and one of the things that he did was inspire confidence. 482 00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:17.039 And he was able to not only reach existing military people, but commercial 483 00:39:17.079 --> 00:39:22.039 pilots felt comfortable in going to him and giveing testimony because they knew that they 484 00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:28.360 won't be treated as a joke and exploited. And Captain William Nash was one 485 00:39:28.360 --> 00:39:31.840 of those and Kehoe, in his m I don't think he set out to 486 00:39:31.840 --> 00:39:37.079 make his lifting in the UFO business, but that was after the success of 487 00:39:37.119 --> 00:39:42.559 his first book and the people he contacted, he became a lecturer in a 488 00:39:42.599 --> 00:39:45.320 way. He was one of the first UFO celebrities. But I think his 489 00:39:45.559 --> 00:39:50.840 heart was actually in it and he was genuine in his efforts, and he 490 00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:58.679 presented things in a nonsensational manner. Well, I will say that he had 491 00:39:58.719 --> 00:40:04.000 a background as a Paul Prye and some of his dialogue is a little bit 492 00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:07.280 melodramatic, and he what he really liked to do in his book was to 493 00:40:08.039 --> 00:40:12.760 rather than present the information dryly, he would have it as if it was 494 00:40:12.920 --> 00:40:17.199 between a conversation between him and say a military officer, and so he presented 495 00:40:17.199 --> 00:40:21.280 it to liven that up. So I think that was kind of a dramatic 496 00:40:21.320 --> 00:40:27.199 device. But um, well, even his critics like Captain Rupelt from the 497 00:40:27.400 --> 00:40:31.840 who was head of the Project Bluebook with an overlap and that he said that 498 00:40:31.639 --> 00:40:37.800 that that he hope presented the facts. Maybe his conclusions were a little exaggerated, 499 00:40:38.239 --> 00:40:42.480 but he said, you know, his source material was right, and 500 00:40:42.519 --> 00:40:45.840 so he felt like he was doing a pretty good job. Even though if 501 00:40:45.840 --> 00:40:50.000 he did give the Air Force, uh some headaches and sharing it with the 502 00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:55.079 public right right now. You mentioned earlier that some of these people are lost 503 00:40:55.159 --> 00:41:00.840 in time to not just the UFO stories, but are there some some really 504 00:41:00.920 --> 00:41:06.519 amazing people that you don't hear their names today that actually made some steps. 505 00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:12.199 Can you think of some of those that you've looked into. Well, one 506 00:41:12.199 --> 00:41:15.480 of the things I'd like to name some of the more credible people, and 507 00:41:15.519 --> 00:41:21.400 I've written about them. Unfortunately the memories not connecting right now, but I 508 00:41:22.360 --> 00:41:27.519 have a series on some of the people that were swindlers and they actually committed 509 00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:30.599 crimes and some of them went to jail over the things that they had done. 510 00:41:30.800 --> 00:41:35.519 Well, that's interesting, so let's let's talk about that. Yeah. 511 00:41:35.639 --> 00:41:38.000 Well, one of the one that I've I've just published a story on is 512 00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:44.360 is Harold Jesse Burney, and I'm with my partner on this project, Claude 513 00:41:44.360 --> 00:41:50.599 Felstrom. He dug up just scores of news clippings on the man and not 514 00:41:50.679 --> 00:41:55.079 And what we really like to do is, whenever possible, is not just 515 00:41:55.199 --> 00:42:00.440 give the UFO case. Especially in the case of a person, if can 516 00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:04.880 we track what happened to him before the UFO case and then what happened to 517 00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:07.320 him after? I mean, did they you know, did they go into 518 00:42:07.360 --> 00:42:10.679 some wild thing? In other words, were the acredible person and were the 519 00:42:10.719 --> 00:42:17.880 incredible afterwards? Well for Harold Burney, No, he started he was he 520 00:42:17.920 --> 00:42:24.239 was about fifty when his u in his UFO scheme came about. But he 521 00:42:24.280 --> 00:42:29.000 had been at things since about nineteen seventeen. He had a life of crime. 522 00:42:29.519 --> 00:42:32.880 He had he had he loved women, left them behind. He would 523 00:42:32.880 --> 00:42:37.239 set up a business. He was kind of a a He would migrate between 524 00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:42.679 the South and the north. He liked to spend his winters in a warm 525 00:42:42.760 --> 00:42:46.079 climate, and it seemed like every time he left one location he would leave 526 00:42:46.119 --> 00:42:51.320 behind a victim. He would he would set up a business and in the 527 00:42:51.360 --> 00:42:54.119 case of a couple of times, he would would set up a big contract, 528 00:42:54.400 --> 00:43:00.960 take thousands of dollars and then disappear with the money. And he eventually 529 00:43:00.280 --> 00:43:02.920 and he went to jail a number of times over the years. I mean, 530 00:43:02.960 --> 00:43:07.800 he was a real real scoundrel and a con man, and apparently very 531 00:43:07.880 --> 00:43:13.000 charming and convincing one. He kept fooling people over and over. He eventually, 532 00:43:14.599 --> 00:43:16.480 after getting out, seemed to go straight for a while. And he 533 00:43:16.519 --> 00:43:22.519 became an inventor, and he invented some television antennas. Because around this time, 534 00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:24.320 this would have been in nineteen fifty two, you know, this was 535 00:43:24.360 --> 00:43:28.880 a huge industry and you could buy a television, but unt you had antenna, 536 00:43:29.199 --> 00:43:34.440 you would get nothing. So he had a great indoor antenna. But 537 00:43:34.559 --> 00:43:39.519 then somehow his criminal side reared up and instead of marketing at his antenna, 538 00:43:39.679 --> 00:43:45.679 suddenly it was a free energy device that had been the design had been given 539 00:43:45.719 --> 00:43:52.480 him to by the people of Venus, and he found a couple of investors 540 00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:55.119 and he took him into strict confidence. He said he was working in partnership 541 00:43:55.119 --> 00:43:59.440 with the government, so they couldn't tell anyone. But if he would invest 542 00:43:59.480 --> 00:44:01.199 the money, they were going to sell it. There was a contract with 543 00:44:01.320 --> 00:44:07.119 Westinghouse and they would they would buy the patent. There would be millions made, 544 00:44:07.840 --> 00:44:12.719 and so he There were there were probably more people we don't know about, 545 00:44:12.760 --> 00:44:15.440 but there were. There were two people mentioned in the news stories, 546 00:44:15.960 --> 00:44:21.400 and the FBI eventually got wind of it and pursued and caught him. And 547 00:44:21.599 --> 00:44:28.400 this one woman was a Washington secretary for a chemical chemical company, and she 548 00:44:28.960 --> 00:44:31.519 probably should have known better, but she was the one that he was actually 549 00:44:31.519 --> 00:44:37.639 convicted for and she lost I think it was about four I think it was 550 00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:43.639 about forty thousand dollars in this and that's huge money. Then, yeah, 551 00:44:43.679 --> 00:44:47.519 and uh, but but he was he's one of the few that was actually 552 00:44:47.519 --> 00:44:54.679 convicted and did prison time. And so there's a lot more twists and turns 553 00:44:54.679 --> 00:44:59.840 to the story than than than I can tell you here. But in research 554 00:45:00.119 --> 00:45:05.440 the story, we found out his great granddaughter was trying to find out about 555 00:45:05.480 --> 00:45:08.119 his past. She started her quest about twenty years ago. She had located 556 00:45:08.159 --> 00:45:13.800 old prison records, had tried to get his FBI record. What's interesting is 557 00:45:13.880 --> 00:45:16.039 that the man actually, as part of his scheme, he wrote a book 558 00:45:16.079 --> 00:45:22.599 called My Two Weeks on Venus and it wound up being confiscated by the FBI. 559 00:45:22.639 --> 00:45:25.280 I never saw print, but from the sound of it, that's in 560 00:45:25.360 --> 00:45:30.039 his FBI file, which amounts to five hundred pages, and we've requested it 561 00:45:30.280 --> 00:45:34.800 and they say they're going to release it, but it's going to take about 562 00:45:34.840 --> 00:45:38.079 two years to redact all the personal details. Now, all these people involved 563 00:45:38.119 --> 00:45:44.079 are probably long dead, but the FBI has their procedure and they're not going 564 00:45:44.159 --> 00:45:46.840 to make an exception. Just because we want it. So we're really hoping 565 00:45:46.880 --> 00:45:50.800 that you know, this is it will probably a who to read. I 566 00:45:50.800 --> 00:45:52.320 mean, if we get it, I'm going to make every effort to see 567 00:45:52.360 --> 00:45:57.320 that it's published. Yeah, yeah, that would be very interesting, especially 568 00:45:57.400 --> 00:46:01.639 Yeah, what nineteen fifty late fifties is that when that was pulled into the 569 00:46:01.639 --> 00:46:07.400 FBI. Fifty seven was when he was convicted, I think fifty six when 570 00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:10.599 he wrote the story, and it was there have been portions of it quoted. 571 00:46:10.719 --> 00:46:16.239 Uh. Jay Edgar Hoover actually wrote an article about that was published in 572 00:46:16.280 --> 00:46:21.920 a Sunday newspaper supplement and he called it the uh what was it, the 573 00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:24.920 Swindler from Venus or something like that, and so there were some quotes about 574 00:46:24.960 --> 00:46:29.880 it, and he said, oh, but so this guy Bernie said that 575 00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:31.719 when when he visited Venus, you know, they were all you know, 576 00:46:31.760 --> 00:46:36.360 he was honored as a as a guest because of his scientific expertise. He 577 00:46:36.440 --> 00:46:40.400 said that the plumbing features were made out of gold. So so if we 578 00:46:40.440 --> 00:46:44.199 could, if we could just be friends with Venus, you know, we 579 00:46:44.199 --> 00:46:47.239 would all be gold rich, and and of course the the energy we would 580 00:46:47.239 --> 00:46:51.840 all have, you know, we would our nation would be safe and we 581 00:46:51.840 --> 00:46:55.360 would probably flying saucers ourselves. That's right, if you can take eight hundred 582 00:46:55.400 --> 00:47:00.039 degrees right, I mean that's about the service temperature there. Well not in 583 00:47:00.079 --> 00:47:04.320 his version. It was a nice climate and you could wear shirt sleeves, 584 00:47:04.320 --> 00:47:07.559 so yeah, I guess you could. Um. Yeah. I had a 585 00:47:07.599 --> 00:47:13.159 discussion with someone that said that. I forget who it was. It was 586 00:47:13.199 --> 00:47:19.320 one of the people like Adamski or um, I can't remember again, but 587 00:47:19.840 --> 00:47:22.320 it was claiming that, yes, he was on Venus, he was truly 588 00:47:22.360 --> 00:47:25.280 on Venus. And I said, how could that even be possible? And 589 00:47:25.320 --> 00:47:30.119 why would he want to be on Venus? So why would he want to 590 00:47:30.159 --> 00:47:31.840 go there? And he said, oh, it's it's like a spirit thing. 591 00:47:32.119 --> 00:47:35.920 I was like, okay, yeah, that was That was kind of 592 00:47:35.960 --> 00:47:40.639 the end of that conversation. But it's really amazing how you know they really 593 00:47:40.679 --> 00:47:45.920 had this thing about Venus. Well, it comes from it comes from theosophy. 594 00:47:45.960 --> 00:47:50.800 I just recently learned a lot about this and have a have a story 595 00:47:50.840 --> 00:47:52.760 on this. But a lot of these I mentioned Damski had a background and 596 00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:58.719 the occult and things like this, and many of these people did. They 597 00:47:58.719 --> 00:48:00.679 were, In fact, they were some of the first people to insist that 598 00:48:00.760 --> 00:48:07.159 flying saucers came from other worlds, but usually they attached some other thing with 599 00:48:07.239 --> 00:48:12.079 it, and they were some of them were like spiritual journeys and things like 600 00:48:12.119 --> 00:48:15.039 that, and this goes there's a big tradition of this, and there's an 601 00:48:15.079 --> 00:48:22.119 overlap with spiritualism. But um, it's um, it's interesting that they were 602 00:48:22.159 --> 00:48:28.000 so adamant about that. But Venus in particular was a was a significant place 603 00:48:28.400 --> 00:48:34.599 in their religious beliefs. So whereas the average person they were concerned with with 604 00:48:34.719 --> 00:48:37.880 the Martians, I mean, it was at the time, Mars was a 605 00:48:37.960 --> 00:48:43.199 real scientific uh candidate. I mean it's a closed planet. We didn't know 606 00:48:43.280 --> 00:48:47.559 that that it was incapable of supporting life, or maybe it had in the 607 00:48:47.599 --> 00:48:52.679 past. But um, you know, there was a it was a legitimate 608 00:48:52.679 --> 00:48:57.480 candidate. I mean now it's it's only considered as a joke. And you 609 00:48:57.519 --> 00:49:01.039 know, like like in the Mars Attack movie from Yeah with the Nannies, 610 00:49:01.920 --> 00:49:07.480 Yeah, that's right. And you know there was the astronomer that claimed he 611 00:49:07.519 --> 00:49:12.480 saw canals. You know, there was like uh man made canals on Mars, 612 00:49:12.599 --> 00:49:15.039 you know from years back, which had everyone, you know, kind 613 00:49:15.039 --> 00:49:21.719 of panicking that there was intelligent life there and you know, afraid of that 614 00:49:21.719 --> 00:49:23.519 they would come here and then came the War of the Worlds and all that. 615 00:49:24.119 --> 00:49:28.960 Um, yeah, that's all. It's all pretty pretty amazing. Well, 616 00:49:29.000 --> 00:49:30.440 you know, I said, I told you every theory has its champion. 617 00:49:30.519 --> 00:49:35.119 People haven't given up on the fact that there are structures on Mars or 618 00:49:35.119 --> 00:49:37.719 even the Moon. There are, there are people just they're they're pouring over 619 00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:40.800 the details. Now, you know, if they find it, I would 620 00:49:40.880 --> 00:49:45.679 surely like to see the evidence. But most of the stuff is glory and 621 00:49:45.719 --> 00:49:50.599 I think kind of a combination of wishful thinking. So yeah, if it's 622 00:49:50.679 --> 00:49:52.000 there, yeah, let's see it. And if it's not Mars, you 623 00:49:52.039 --> 00:49:55.039 know, maybe you know, maybe another planet. They say that some of 624 00:49:55.039 --> 00:50:01.800 our some of Saturn's moons are possibly capable of you know that they have water 625 00:50:01.880 --> 00:50:06.519 and maybe the other ingredients for life. So you know, maybe maybe there's 626 00:50:06.559 --> 00:50:09.400 something in our solar system. But you know, I think the stronger stronger 627 00:50:09.480 --> 00:50:15.000 odds it's much further away. Yeah, you know, you never think of 628 00:50:15.119 --> 00:50:20.079 moons as supporting life, but that is that's definitely a theory, and it 629 00:50:20.599 --> 00:50:23.199 could be microbial. But um, I'm trying to think of the name of 630 00:50:23.280 --> 00:50:30.920 the moon that it goes around Jupiter. I believe that it's it's an ice 631 00:50:30.960 --> 00:50:37.760 covered but possibly you know, water below and it keeps somewhat warm just because 632 00:50:37.760 --> 00:50:43.800 of the gravitational pressure as it's as going around kind of expands and contracts. 633 00:50:44.679 --> 00:50:47.599 Um. So yeah, you never know where we'll find life, if we 634 00:50:47.639 --> 00:50:52.000 will find any type of microbial life out there. It's all. It's all 635 00:50:52.039 --> 00:50:58.039 fascinating. Um. So let's just before we move on. Um, is 636 00:50:58.039 --> 00:51:01.440 there any other really funny character of that you looked into or is that? 637 00:51:01.920 --> 00:51:05.840 Is that about it? As far as u he said, that's the only 638 00:51:05.880 --> 00:51:08.559 one convicted that you know all about. Oh no, no, there there 639 00:51:08.559 --> 00:51:13.159 were others. There are others convicting that. And I mentioned Silas Newton before 640 00:51:13.239 --> 00:51:16.840 now he was he was convicted, but he didn't serve time. So you 641 00:51:16.880 --> 00:51:22.159 know, that's that's why Harold Harold J. Burney when's when's the unfortunate prize 642 00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:27.679 of being the jailed. So he was the first one jailed for a flying 643 00:51:27.719 --> 00:51:35.079 saucer fraud. Oh there there's a there's another cast of characters. M there's 644 00:51:35.159 --> 00:51:37.400 all. There's one that I'm going to be writing about. It'd like to 645 00:51:37.400 --> 00:51:40.639 tell you about Ryan hold Schmidt. Now he's a contemporary of these other men, 646 00:51:40.719 --> 00:51:45.519 and his story is similar. Um. I will tell you that he 647 00:51:45.880 --> 00:51:54.159 um, he romanced a couple of victims. Um and it he he he 648 00:51:54.280 --> 00:51:58.519 had them invest in gold mines and that oh, by the way, his 649 00:51:58.519 --> 00:52:02.159 his friends which were also from Venus, they helped him locate gold and diamond 650 00:52:02.239 --> 00:52:07.599 mines from the sky. So the women were persuaded to invest in that. 651 00:52:07.199 --> 00:52:14.280 And now he's another person I actually found a living relative of and it's his 652 00:52:14.599 --> 00:52:17.320 grandson, and he remembers him. He remembers the man. Finally he even 653 00:52:17.639 --> 00:52:22.920 thinks that there's a likelihood that the stories are true. So it's it's sometimes 654 00:52:22.920 --> 00:52:25.920 when you're dealing with someone who was a fraud and this man actually went to 655 00:52:27.280 --> 00:52:30.480 prison and then you've got someone that loves him, it's like, well, 656 00:52:30.480 --> 00:52:34.440 it's a bit uncomfortable to call them a fraud and a criminal, but that 657 00:52:34.679 --> 00:52:37.760 these are provable, provable facts. So you know, I have to acknowledge 658 00:52:37.760 --> 00:52:43.679 his feelings and try not to well I have to respect him, you know, 659 00:52:43.800 --> 00:52:46.119 move on. But but yeah, I encourage people. That's that's called 660 00:52:46.119 --> 00:52:50.639 the saucers. At time for God, we usually put up something every every 661 00:52:50.639 --> 00:52:53.000 two weeks, and there's there's a we've been at it for about three years 662 00:52:53.039 --> 00:52:57.239 now, so there's about one hundred stories up there at different things, So 663 00:52:57.360 --> 00:53:00.119 you know, pick your topic anything from Roswell to you know, the UFO 664 00:53:00.199 --> 00:53:06.159 crashes um and like I said, there's the ufologists at time Forgot, which 665 00:53:06.440 --> 00:53:10.440 is a mixture of people that were sincere and maybe not so much. Well 666 00:53:10.840 --> 00:53:15.679 that that link is in the show notes and also on YouTube as well for 667 00:53:15.719 --> 00:53:21.599 anyone that wants to check that out. So yeah, that's that's really really 668 00:53:21.599 --> 00:53:28.599 amazing. Let's switch gears now and talk about what you are looking into as 669 00:53:28.639 --> 00:53:32.679 far as A tip and uh big low airspace and all that. Why don't 670 00:53:32.679 --> 00:53:39.000 you get into that topic? Okay, Well, the topic has become a 671 00:53:39.159 --> 00:53:45.039 renewed interest because the Pentagon just released the statement and copies of the videos that 672 00:53:45.119 --> 00:53:50.559 were connected with the A tip story and they've said that these are Navy videos 673 00:53:50.800 --> 00:54:00.000 and they characterized the objects as unidentified or unknown aerial phenomenon and so that's that's 674 00:54:00.079 --> 00:54:04.679 really interesting. I mean, that's what propelled the whole A tip story. 675 00:54:05.280 --> 00:54:08.480 Uh and what would you know? And most people know about this at least 676 00:54:08.480 --> 00:54:13.159 from the news, or at least you know from the from the videos. 677 00:54:13.239 --> 00:54:17.719 But um, and the Navy's position on this is interesting. Before I move 678 00:54:17.800 --> 00:54:22.519 on to that they've adopted this fate, this phrase UAP, which they say 679 00:54:23.039 --> 00:54:29.280 they've they've borrowed from the British Unknown Aerial phenomenon and it's actually not new. 680 00:54:29.400 --> 00:54:31.079 I mean they were they were using that way back in the fifties, but 681 00:54:31.119 --> 00:54:39.679 it didn't catch on like UFO. But it's almost more mysterious than saying UFO 682 00:54:39.840 --> 00:54:45.320 because there's phenomenon, because that can be so many things. UM, but 683 00:54:45.840 --> 00:54:52.800 it's such a strange choice because that this Navy spokesman will say UAP and then 684 00:54:52.800 --> 00:54:58.679 in the next breaths start talking about drones and unmanned aerial systems as if it's 685 00:54:58.719 --> 00:55:04.760 interchangeable. And I don't know if that confusion is deliberate, you know, 686 00:55:04.800 --> 00:55:07.599 I think it's I think you're better off saying in UFO rather than implying something 687 00:55:08.000 --> 00:55:15.000 that it's definitely genuinely mysterious. So that's anyway, that's kind of a side. 688 00:55:15.039 --> 00:55:19.800 But so when the A Tip story broke, there was a The video 689 00:55:19.880 --> 00:55:22.119 has got all the attention, but a minor part of this story they said 690 00:55:22.119 --> 00:55:27.079 that twenty two million was a big part of the story. But twenty two 691 00:55:27.199 --> 00:55:32.480 million dollars was funded for Robert Bigelow, who was a contractor for the program. 692 00:55:32.679 --> 00:55:36.360 And at the time we didn't know the name of it. And it 693 00:55:36.440 --> 00:55:44.800 was a SAP which i'll probably botch Advanced to Aerospace Weapons Systems Applications Program something 694 00:55:44.840 --> 00:55:52.119 like that ASAP. And so it was about aerospace weapons development. And he 695 00:55:52.480 --> 00:55:57.840 the purpose of this, they said, and this is what's controversial. What's 696 00:55:57.840 --> 00:56:01.679 the cover story and what was the real purpose. The purpose was to study 697 00:56:02.079 --> 00:56:07.719 aerospace development and what it might be fifty years from now, what our enemies 698 00:56:07.800 --> 00:56:14.519 might deliver in that time and could we And they wanted its scientific studies in 699 00:56:14.559 --> 00:56:19.400 twelve specific areas and I'll name just a few of them, lift propulsion, 700 00:56:19.880 --> 00:56:22.880 directed energy weapons, and then there were some other things that it sounded kind 701 00:56:22.880 --> 00:56:29.480 of strange, like human effects that was kind of nebulous. So the controversy 702 00:56:29.639 --> 00:56:36.719 is that Harry Reid and the director the DA set this program up to study 703 00:56:36.800 --> 00:56:42.119 UFOs and use scientific language to conceal it. But if that's so, the 704 00:56:42.119 --> 00:56:49.719 program received its funding from Congress kind of based on a lie. So and 705 00:56:49.880 --> 00:56:55.519 we're left to wonder. So how much of this contracted statement was true. 706 00:56:55.719 --> 00:57:00.760 Was it really about weapons development, and if so, was it based on 707 00:57:00.920 --> 00:57:07.559 UFOs it. You know, the military was interested in weapons, they always 708 00:57:07.559 --> 00:57:09.239 are, and you know, if someone's got them, they want to have 709 00:57:09.440 --> 00:57:13.800 information on them, and certainly they want to be able to development. So 710 00:57:14.199 --> 00:57:19.639 I'm not convinced this was purely a UFO program. And even when Harry Reid 711 00:57:20.400 --> 00:57:25.000 trying to get the funding for this as a formal special access program, he 712 00:57:25.000 --> 00:57:30.920 wrote a letter to the Secretary Defense requesting the same kind of language and for 713 00:57:30.960 --> 00:57:34.840 the purpose of development, he thought that they had, you know, in 714 00:57:35.119 --> 00:57:37.920 the one year the program had existed, he said they've been good progress and 715 00:57:38.079 --> 00:57:44.000 that there should be technological developments. So even to the Secretary Defense, it 716 00:57:44.079 --> 00:57:52.360 was being presented as a weapons program. But so Robert Bigelow and your listeners 717 00:57:52.440 --> 00:57:57.039 probably know, but there's a few that won't. He is a billionaire aerospace 718 00:57:57.440 --> 00:58:02.239 developer. He has a contract within now and has put satellites in orbit in 719 00:58:02.360 --> 00:58:07.760 conjunction with him, and what he's trying to develop in particular is expandable habitats 720 00:58:07.840 --> 00:58:15.320 for space stations. However, his real passion is UFO research, and he's 721 00:58:15.320 --> 00:58:19.719 been involved with it since the nineteen nineties. He had an organization, and 722 00:58:19.760 --> 00:58:23.400 we'll talk about this just briefly, just to for reference, the National Institute 723 00:58:23.400 --> 00:58:29.000 for Discovery Science. And he had top tier UFO people involved in this, 724 00:58:29.119 --> 00:58:34.519 people with scientific backgrounds, not just not just enthusiasts, people with the h 725 00:58:34.719 --> 00:58:37.760 There was John Shusler who had who was an engineer that had worked for NASA. 726 00:58:38.480 --> 00:58:47.199 Jacques Valet was on their uh, Colm Keller who was a biologist, 727 00:58:50.119 --> 00:58:52.840 and now I'm going blank on some of the other names. But these people, 728 00:58:52.239 --> 00:58:55.000 you know, were highly credential. And what was interesting is at the 729 00:58:55.079 --> 00:59:00.480 time he was publishing works on this and had a website and sharing it. 730 00:59:00.559 --> 00:59:05.599 And you know what, he's known for being reclusive. He's sort of like 731 00:59:05.639 --> 00:59:08.119 the Howard Hughes of UFO, but he was sharing information at the time. 732 00:59:08.519 --> 00:59:13.400 He also, during this time, bought the skin Walker Ranch in nineteen ninety 733 00:59:13.400 --> 00:59:17.519 six, but the story he published in two thousand and four was that there 734 00:59:17.559 --> 00:59:23.599 weren't enough good cases to justify the continuing continuation of the company and he shut 735 00:59:23.599 --> 00:59:29.400 it down. He kept the skin Walker Ranch his friends m Colm Keller, 736 00:59:29.440 --> 00:59:32.280 her and George and Abe wrote a book about it, but the organization itself 737 00:59:34.480 --> 00:59:40.360 shuttered shortly afterwards. The A TIP contract came along and he pretty much gathered 738 00:59:40.719 --> 00:59:46.039 the band, got the band back together as as big a little Advanced Airspace 739 00:59:47.639 --> 00:59:52.719 Space Studies, which people call BASS, but it's probably easier for us to 740 00:59:52.760 --> 00:59:55.719 just say Bigelow. I know, we're talking about him and his company, 741 00:59:57.719 --> 01:00:00.599 and so they won. They were the sole bitter for the contract, and 742 01:00:00.760 --> 01:00:09.000 they initiated. They were given twenty two million dollars to do what this contract 743 01:00:09.039 --> 01:00:17.280 asked for, to collect information about for the potential for weapons apparently in those 744 01:00:17.320 --> 01:00:22.320 topics. But the cover story he gave to the public was, instead of 745 01:00:22.360 --> 01:00:28.199 saying it was for the military, he wanted to study UFO cases for commercial 746 01:00:28.280 --> 01:00:32.320 aerospace development. In other words, he could potentially build his own spaceship based 747 01:00:32.480 --> 01:00:37.760 on study and UFOs and maybe finding UFO relics. So I'm going to pause 748 01:00:37.760 --> 01:00:40.360 her for a moment and let you ask a question about that and get a 749 01:00:40.400 --> 01:00:45.679 supporter. Yeah, yeah, okay. You know one of the things about 750 01:00:46.400 --> 01:00:52.719 about all of this is was he actually the sole receiver of that twenty two 751 01:00:52.719 --> 01:00:57.880 million. There was no other funds given out to anyone else for any other 752 01:00:57.920 --> 01:01:02.079 purposes during that time. If there was, we don't know about it. 753 01:01:02.119 --> 01:01:09.360 And what he did was he subcontracted two major things. One was to the 754 01:01:09.480 --> 01:01:14.920 Mutual UFO Network mof ON and part of this has been known for a long 755 01:01:15.000 --> 01:01:21.280 time because he had them do field studies and it was a big program fifty 756 01:01:21.360 --> 01:01:24.559 six thousand dollars a month paid. They had They had people who were working 757 01:01:24.599 --> 01:01:30.639 as professional investigators that were available around the clock to go around the nation to 758 01:01:31.440 --> 01:01:37.360 for truly outstanding UFO cases where there might be physical evidence. And this was 759 01:01:37.400 --> 01:01:42.920 I mean, this caused excuse me restructuring a mouf on uh And you know, 760 01:01:43.000 --> 01:01:47.559 went from for this team at least from a volunteer organization to a paid 761 01:01:47.719 --> 01:01:53.280 organization and they had pretty pretty strict contract where they had to deliver information to 762 01:01:53.639 --> 01:01:59.760 move on. And then not only did they deliver the well, I should 763 01:01:59.760 --> 01:02:06.199 say where the information went. So Bigelow on his own had developed a team 764 01:02:07.920 --> 01:02:14.199 forty to fifty scientists and technicians and some field investigators and they would analyze the 765 01:02:14.280 --> 01:02:17.679 material that Moufin collected and and some of the investigators would actually go with him 766 01:02:17.880 --> 01:02:23.920 to investigate the cases. So now this particular work was definitely UFO related. 767 01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:27.280 Now, what was going to be done with the data, we don't know 768 01:02:27.440 --> 01:02:34.400 because it flowed from Moufon to Bigelow on to the Defense Intelligence Agency. They 769 01:02:34.400 --> 01:02:38.559 were the sponsor of this, and you know from there, you know, 770 01:02:38.760 --> 01:02:42.440 once he got to Bigelow, we don't know what happened or how it was 771 01:02:42.480 --> 01:02:47.039 processed. So and he kept the relationship a secret. He did tell Moufin 772 01:02:47.119 --> 01:02:52.320 that he had a partner, which they probably assumed was another aerospace partner like 773 01:02:52.440 --> 01:02:58.400 Lockheed, but he certainly withheld the fact that it was the government. So 774 01:02:58.559 --> 01:03:05.639 Mufon and you know UFO, we're always talking about government secrecy and the suspicion 775 01:03:05.719 --> 01:03:10.519 of hiding evidence they don't Moufan would not have been happy to know that they 776 01:03:10.519 --> 01:03:15.239 were basically in partnership with the government, and so Bigelow withheld that from them. 777 01:03:16.119 --> 01:03:22.039 And so the feeling investigation part of that was known. What what people 778 01:03:22.079 --> 01:03:28.480 didn't know was that he um he had them right. Uh. He wanted 779 01:03:28.519 --> 01:03:32.239 them to write topics about those twelve topics. Now they only wrote five of 780 01:03:32.280 --> 01:03:37.960 them, and he paid them about ten thousand dollars for that, and once 781 01:03:37.000 --> 01:03:43.320 that was delivered, he immediately changed gears to explain a little bit more what 782 01:03:43.360 --> 01:03:51.360 you mean about the topics? Sure, okay, uh, I'm I'm not 783 01:03:51.400 --> 01:03:54.000 going to list all twelve because I can't remember them. So these were these 784 01:03:54.000 --> 01:04:00.119 were things that they wanted to carry beyond what we can do today with modern 785 01:04:00.320 --> 01:04:05.400 aircraft. And one of them was left and propulsion UM. There was also 786 01:04:05.599 --> 01:04:11.119 things like well, actually cloaking I thought I thought it was stealth, but 787 01:04:11.159 --> 01:04:17.320 the actual term was cloaking um UM. And there were energy weapons directed energy 788 01:04:17.360 --> 01:04:24.960 weapons UM. And I mentioned human effects earlier and it was it was. 789 01:04:25.599 --> 01:04:30.199 And there was another one called human interface, which it wasn't defined, but 790 01:04:30.280 --> 01:04:36.760 I think what that was supposed to mean was basically direct brain control of machines, 791 01:04:38.599 --> 01:04:44.960 a transfer of the control of the machine from from user to the machine. 792 01:04:45.599 --> 01:04:48.280 UM. That was something that was that was being explored. One of 793 01:04:48.280 --> 01:04:53.360 the papers were written on that. So so MOUF one was supposed to handle 794 01:04:53.480 --> 01:04:57.400 these topics, and they were given the orders that it was not supposed to 795 01:04:57.480 --> 01:05:02.639 be specifically UFOs, it was kind of to be camouflaged in that. So 796 01:05:03.039 --> 01:05:09.239 they did the pilot studies and by the way, there were a team of 797 01:05:09.800 --> 01:05:15.440 mufund's top people and I posted the names of some of them. And one 798 01:05:15.480 --> 01:05:18.760 of the people that admitted on being on the team and write one of the 799 01:05:18.760 --> 01:05:26.039 papers was Robert Powell, who was formerly mufund's scientific advisor and he since going 800 01:05:26.119 --> 01:05:35.639 on to another organization, the Scientific Coalition for UAP Studies, and he he 801 01:05:35.639 --> 01:05:40.679 didn't want to say much about it because all this work was done under nondisclosure 802 01:05:40.719 --> 01:05:45.039 agreements. You know. He would say that you should ask Jan Harzan or 803 01:05:45.079 --> 01:05:48.840 the former director, James carry In about that. And I did ask James 804 01:05:48.960 --> 01:05:56.480 carry In and he was forthcoming about this, and Jan Harzen gave no response. 805 01:05:56.840 --> 01:06:00.920 And it's interesting he was a participant in this and he said nothing about 806 01:06:00.960 --> 01:06:03.159 it. And he said quite a bit about a tip and even had Louis 807 01:06:03.159 --> 01:06:11.440 Elzando at his conference. But he's not acknowledged the relationship Moufan had with with 808 01:06:11.880 --> 01:06:15.960 with Bass and you know, by extension through the Defense Intelligence Agency. And 809 01:06:16.119 --> 01:06:20.079 it may be because of embarrassment, and it may be because of the non 810 01:06:20.079 --> 01:06:25.199 disclosure agreement. I don't know, but I think that he does over the 811 01:06:25.239 --> 01:06:30.599 public some comments on that. Was this this was going on before his time 812 01:06:32.320 --> 01:06:36.920 as director. Now he was he was actually uh involved in the in the 813 01:06:36.960 --> 01:06:42.840 negotiations with this he was. He was on the board of directors at the 814 01:06:42.880 --> 01:06:45.719 time, so he was part of the decision making. And when James Carrion 815 01:06:45.880 --> 01:06:50.639 left during this, he took over the relationship with with big Low's company, 816 01:06:50.880 --> 01:06:56.119 so he was he was thoroughly involved in this, but it was James Carrying 817 01:06:56.199 --> 01:06:58.760 was a director at the time. Now, some of the things he told 818 01:06:58.800 --> 01:07:04.440 us about what we're meetings with Bigelow and how put off was there. Jeanques 819 01:07:04.440 --> 01:07:10.760 Ballet was there, Calm Keller was there. And what was interesting about this 820 01:07:10.920 --> 01:07:16.280 was that these people all have their areas of expertise, but in this instance 821 01:07:16.320 --> 01:07:24.000 Bigelow was basically using them as contract negotiators and picking their bank their brains to 822 01:07:24.840 --> 01:07:30.280 formulate the jobs Moufon would do. And it was like it was, in 823 01:07:30.320 --> 01:07:32.719 my opinion, with the waste of their talent. You know, they should 824 01:07:32.719 --> 01:07:36.039 have been doing their own research and things like that. But I guess he 825 01:07:36.079 --> 01:07:42.800 works with people he trusts and then sometimes has them mopped the floors. So 826 01:07:43.400 --> 01:07:49.400 in your opinion, what is this change about Moufon? Well, you know 827 01:07:49.440 --> 01:07:55.159 that raises some interesting questions. You know, I think it may have violated 828 01:07:55.199 --> 01:07:59.679 that the goals of the organization somewhat. And there's also the concern that there 829 01:07:59.719 --> 01:08:04.639 were a nonprofit organization and they were doing this basically contract work for her. 830 01:08:04.920 --> 01:08:09.719 And the way they reported the income, however, was as a donation, 831 01:08:10.239 --> 01:08:14.239 and you know, technically speaking, that's not correct. So you know, 832 01:08:14.239 --> 01:08:17.199 it's for a tax lawyer to say whether or not that was incorrect. But 833 01:08:17.319 --> 01:08:21.399 I think they made a really bad choice in accepting this deal. Certainly, 834 01:08:21.399 --> 01:08:27.079 they needed the money and they could continue their work with the funding if it 835 01:08:27.079 --> 01:08:30.720 had worked out as they had hoped, but Bigelow was so restrictive in the 836 01:08:30.840 --> 01:08:38.159 terms of the contract. He basically didn't allow them to profit from this where 837 01:08:38.239 --> 01:08:44.680 it would make the organization any more robust. He wanted all the dollars to 838 01:08:44.720 --> 01:08:50.479 go to these field investigations, and so there was anything left to make move 839 01:08:50.560 --> 01:08:56.079 on any healthier. So and then when he eventually cut the funding and then 840 01:08:56.399 --> 01:09:02.680 didn't renew after the first year, and it pretty much drove and broke there. 841 01:09:03.199 --> 01:09:06.319 They had come to depend on this. They had people that were salary 842 01:09:06.399 --> 01:09:11.600 that were just suddenly out of the jobs, and due to the nondisclosure agreement, 843 01:09:11.920 --> 01:09:15.319 they couldn't tell the public why it was a big, big black eye 844 01:09:15.359 --> 01:09:18.119 fore and also as a result is that there were rumors at the time there 845 01:09:18.119 --> 01:09:23.199 were people saying, oh, Moufan has been sold to Bigelow, and that 846 01:09:23.279 --> 01:09:27.239 wasn't true. But he didn't have involvement. And beyond what I mentioned too, 847 01:09:27.359 --> 01:09:32.359 is he had access to their computerized they called it the case management system. 848 01:09:32.439 --> 01:09:35.479 Now, anyone can go and look at the basics of it, but 849 01:09:35.640 --> 01:09:44.600 a Moufon investigator has information beyond that, including witness identities, and you know, 850 01:09:44.720 --> 01:09:48.399 it beyond what the public can see. And under this agreement, while 851 01:09:48.479 --> 01:09:56.680 it was going on, Bigelow's people had access to that, and Moufon added 852 01:09:56.880 --> 01:10:00.319 a disclaimer. They asked, you know, can we give your information to 853 01:10:00.399 --> 01:10:04.800 a third party for the purpose of investigation. But they didn't tell that the 854 01:10:04.920 --> 01:10:10.880 government wind up might wind up within information. So there was I think some 855 01:10:11.000 --> 01:10:15.800 ethical concerns there about privacy during during the course of this. So you know, 856 01:10:15.840 --> 01:10:19.720 there are a number of problems. Now, I think Moufond's heart might 857 01:10:19.760 --> 01:10:23.760 have been in the right place, but I really think they got into a 858 01:10:23.800 --> 01:10:29.359 bad relationship and it's certainly heard the financially and to damage your credibility. Now, 859 01:10:29.760 --> 01:10:33.640 when getting back to Bigelow. Um, you know, so he spent 860 01:10:33.960 --> 01:10:39.720 I don't know, three hundred plus thousand dollars, that's a long stretch away 861 01:10:39.720 --> 01:10:45.680 from twenty two million and has when someone has contracted like that. I just 862 01:10:45.720 --> 01:10:51.840 don't know how these things were. Does he have to like show the government 863 01:10:53.000 --> 01:10:57.399 what he's using these funds for? And do we know what the rest of 864 01:10:57.439 --> 01:11:02.279 the twenty two million dollars actually went for. I don't know what he had 865 01:11:02.319 --> 01:11:10.119 to present to him exactly. We do know that something about what's been delivered 866 01:11:10.199 --> 01:11:14.239 and one of the one of the we know that there's at least one move 867 01:11:14.439 --> 01:11:20.560 on alleged landing case that was delivered to the Defense Intelligence Agency. But moving 868 01:11:20.600 --> 01:11:27.680 on to the how some of the other money was spent, there were besides 869 01:11:27.760 --> 01:11:33.359 move Find The other subcontractor that Bigelow used was how put Off's company, earth 870 01:11:33.439 --> 01:11:41.960 Tech, and how put Off apparently directed going back to those twelve topics left 871 01:11:41.960 --> 01:11:46.600 propulsion, directed energy weapons and such, he directed studies to be written which 872 01:11:46.600 --> 01:11:56.159 were eventually used as now for Defense Intelligence research documents DERDS is what we'll call 873 01:11:56.239 --> 01:12:02.000 him for short. But and those are available on the defense. I'm going 874 01:12:02.039 --> 01:12:08.479 to botch this, but it's it's basically a private security network for the Defense 875 01:12:09.560 --> 01:12:15.079 Intelligence Agency and the contractors and the other military and only they have access to 876 01:12:15.079 --> 01:12:18.600 it. So these papers and there were written by some people that Kit Green. 877 01:12:19.680 --> 01:12:25.479 Doctor Kitt Green is a long time UFO researchers, has been involved in 878 01:12:25.520 --> 01:12:30.119 a lot of things from remote viewing to medical UFO research. He wrote a 879 01:12:30.119 --> 01:12:35.359 paper and his is the most clearly related to UFOs. It's on injuries related 880 01:12:35.399 --> 01:12:40.800 to animalous encounters and even the cash Landom case is mentioned in there's kind of 881 01:12:40.800 --> 01:12:45.680 a benchmark. He discussed a number of historical cases. That's the only one 882 01:12:45.720 --> 01:12:49.159 we can point to that's absolutely UFO related. Another one was on the drink 883 01:12:49.279 --> 01:12:54.960 equation. And most of them are on aerospace topics that as we said, 884 01:12:55.000 --> 01:12:59.199 that were you know, they either it was a legitimate aerospace research or it 885 01:12:59.239 --> 01:13:06.039 was CAMOUFLO lodged. UFO research has as aerospace development and doctor Eric Davis wrote 886 01:13:06.079 --> 01:13:12.840 several papers on on some you know, exotic topics like warmp drives and wormholes 887 01:13:12.880 --> 01:13:16.840 and things like this, you know, very theoretical physics kind of things that 888 01:13:17.239 --> 01:13:23.159 are beyond today's capabilities. And so this was this was done of the course 889 01:13:23.159 --> 01:13:30.319 of two years and so, and those were contracted out at about two thousand 890 01:13:30.359 --> 01:13:35.800 dollars a piece, so that's where part of the money spent. But even 891 01:13:35.880 --> 01:13:41.680 so we were far short of the twenty two million. I did an accounting 892 01:13:41.720 --> 01:13:45.640 of it and I got us to about nine million. So there are other 893 01:13:45.720 --> 01:13:54.159 things that that we don't know. We're told that Bigelow built some facilities, 894 01:13:56.640 --> 01:14:00.279 but we have no clear evidence of that. We know there's actually a building 895 01:14:00.359 --> 01:14:02.840 that he had there's now for sale for about seven million that was built, 896 01:14:02.960 --> 01:14:08.600 never occupied, and maybe some of them money went towards that, and when 897 01:14:08.600 --> 01:14:15.640 the contract was axed, he just abandoned those plans. But the salaries alone, 898 01:14:15.680 --> 01:14:20.039 and this fifty people of you know, would chiefly of scientists, that 899 01:14:20.119 --> 01:14:26.039 must have been a significant amount. I think that would maybe be seven million 900 01:14:26.079 --> 01:14:29.520 alone, seven and a half million something like that over the course of the 901 01:14:29.760 --> 01:14:34.000 at least two years. So and but there again, once the funding was 902 01:14:34.079 --> 01:14:39.560 cut, most of those people, except for the senior management, they were 903 01:14:40.560 --> 01:14:44.720 they were immediately fired. I mean, it just it came to a full 904 01:14:45.359 --> 01:14:51.479 almost a full stop in June of twenty ten. It continued beyond that on 905 01:14:51.520 --> 01:14:58.039 some level, you know, the chief people involved. I wanted to just 906 01:14:59.359 --> 01:15:02.239 to back up a little bit as a weird at side. So we were 907 01:15:02.279 --> 01:15:05.680 talking about the Nimts case and the videos and the tik tac. One of 908 01:15:05.680 --> 01:15:14.079 the witnesses of the tik tac was a Colonel oh now, Douglas Kurth. 909 01:15:15.600 --> 01:15:18.079 His nickname was Cheeks. I think he was actually the first person to spot 910 01:15:18.119 --> 01:15:24.000 it, and then later David Faber went out. Well. He was hired 911 01:15:24.039 --> 01:15:28.760 by Robert Bigelow as the first employee for Big Little Aerospace in two thousand and 912 01:15:28.840 --> 01:15:34.760 seven and he was the program manager. And a friends of mine, Keith 913 01:15:34.840 --> 01:15:42.439 Masterfield and Mark Scotti, who's a French researcher, have found out that they 914 01:15:43.920 --> 01:15:48.239 there was a BASS investigation in Brazil. A team. Two teams went there 915 01:15:48.239 --> 01:15:54.119 and one of them was headed by by Douglas Kurth. He presented his card, 916 01:15:54.600 --> 01:15:58.760 he identified himself as program manager. They were trying to find about Brazilian 917 01:15:58.800 --> 01:16:03.359 cases and even find UFO evidence. So there's there's even photos of him meeting 918 01:16:03.399 --> 01:16:09.640 investigators. So finally we've known almost nothing about what he did, and now 919 01:16:09.640 --> 01:16:14.960 we have a clear example of one of his activities and his involvement at a 920 01:16:15.079 --> 01:16:19.439 very high level in this and it's just so interesting that a prominent witness was 921 01:16:19.479 --> 01:16:26.000 in a senior position in this organization and it can't be an accident. Yeah, 922 01:16:26.079 --> 01:16:30.560 yeah, from right to understand, he's not talking to anyone that's trying. 923 01:16:30.920 --> 01:16:34.439 He's got so many stories, you know, his UFO encounter alone and 924 01:16:34.479 --> 01:16:40.000 then the work that he's done. But again he's he's bound at least on 925 01:16:40.119 --> 01:16:44.960 the big low end of it by a nondisclosure agreement. Yeah. It just 926 01:16:45.039 --> 01:16:46.399 kind of goes to show, you know, going back to the money part 927 01:16:46.399 --> 01:16:50.239 of this thing, that you know, you can throw twenty two million dollars 928 01:16:50.239 --> 01:16:55.399 at this topic and not really that you know, it's not about money. 929 01:16:55.560 --> 01:17:00.640 Really a lot of it isn't with because of the nature of what a UFO 930 01:17:00.920 --> 01:17:05.920 is. You know, it's fleeting, it's it's unpredictable, and uh you 931 01:17:05.920 --> 01:17:11.279 know, I mean there are some people that have some good ideas with you 932 01:17:11.319 --> 01:17:15.600 know, setting up these monitors you know, out out there that you know, 933 01:17:15.680 --> 01:17:21.520 maybe can catch something and catch more information, but it's a program like 934 01:17:21.560 --> 01:17:26.359 that can get axed because you know, what are they going to come up 935 01:17:26.399 --> 01:17:28.960 with? Even if you throw a ton of money at it. It's very 936 01:17:28.960 --> 01:17:32.479 hard, very hard to figure out. I would I'd love to see the 937 01:17:32.560 --> 01:17:35.960 data they collected, and you know, we probably never will, but you 938 01:17:35.960 --> 01:17:40.119 know, hopefully some of these people that were involved, some of them are 939 01:17:40.239 --> 01:17:44.560 talking. You'll hear a little bit selective in a bit from from how it 940 01:17:44.640 --> 01:17:48.119 put off, but he's not given too many secrets. And then the grand 941 01:17:48.119 --> 01:17:54.479 scope of the at least the mass project. Lewis Alsando came in really late 942 01:17:54.520 --> 01:17:59.439 on that, and and the story he tells is that the reason the contract 943 01:17:59.479 --> 01:18:04.800 with Big was canceled was because they were focused on too many different areas and 944 01:18:05.359 --> 01:18:14.119 whatever it was the Defense Intelligence Agency remained interested in was narrowly focused. And 945 01:18:14.800 --> 01:18:19.520 we can only speculate, but perhaps it was the military cases like the nimits 946 01:18:19.600 --> 01:18:24.359 and the cases that have followed that we have videos of. You know, 947 01:18:24.399 --> 01:18:28.319 we don't know for sure. That's you know, hopefully we has some documentation 948 01:18:28.359 --> 01:18:30.760 on that soon. But you know, there had to have been some good 949 01:18:30.760 --> 01:18:35.920 information that that wasn't previously public. But it's it's locked up. So right 950 01:18:36.520 --> 01:18:44.119 right, what about someone had mentioned earlier, what does to the Stars have 951 01:18:44.199 --> 01:18:48.079 anything to do? I mean with Bigelow that there's no connection there? Right 952 01:18:48.800 --> 01:18:54.119 there, there is a connection, but we don't know for sure now. 953 01:18:54.520 --> 01:18:58.560 At one time, Tom DeLong was hinting that he was about to announce a 954 01:18:58.600 --> 01:19:03.119 partnership with an aerospace company. That never happened. However, Robert Bigelow's daughter 955 01:19:03.359 --> 01:19:12.960 tweeted out a picture of him along with Lewis Alessando and um Tom DeLong there 956 01:19:13.039 --> 01:19:18.199 at Bass Facilities, so he was he was given a tour, So apparently 957 01:19:18.760 --> 01:19:24.560 whatever he hoped might happen, or if there is a connection, it hasn't 958 01:19:24.840 --> 01:19:29.039 been made public. But the real connection that we can say is the involvement 959 01:19:29.039 --> 01:19:31.960 of some of the former players, like how put Off, who was there. 960 01:19:32.479 --> 01:19:38.640 He was he was a member of Needs, he was a subcontractor at 961 01:19:38.000 --> 01:19:43.720 at Bigelow. He was influential and instrumental in this all the way along. 962 01:19:44.199 --> 01:19:46.720 And he's with to the Stars and is the co founder. I mean a 963 01:19:46.760 --> 01:19:49.720 lot of people just think he's one of the team, but he's the co 964 01:19:49.880 --> 01:19:56.239 founder of To the Stars Academy. So that's that's a real connection and the 965 01:19:56.359 --> 01:19:59.920 kind of work they're doing. It is intended to continue. But you know, 966 01:20:00.039 --> 01:20:02.319 whether or not there's a financial connection, I don't think so. But 967 01:20:02.479 --> 01:20:08.239 there's a spiritual connection and a personnel connection. Yeah, yeah, amazing. 968 01:20:08.600 --> 01:20:11.640 All right, well, Kurt, it's been a real pleasure. And if 969 01:20:11.640 --> 01:20:15.560 you would go ahead and give out your is it two websites or three altogether? 970 01:20:16.920 --> 01:20:21.119 There is Blue Glory Lines and then the Saucers at time Forgot, So 971 01:20:21.439 --> 01:20:25.520 you've got the addresses up there and I hope people will check them out. 972 01:20:25.560 --> 01:20:30.199 And by the way, I've probably watched some of these details, and if 973 01:20:30.239 --> 01:20:33.479 anyone has any questions about this, I'd be glad to answer the questions and 974 01:20:33.560 --> 01:20:38.039 give more information. Excellent, all right, Kurt, Well, thanks so 975 01:20:38.119 --> 01:20:41.680 much. All right, thank you, I'll talk to you soon. Take 976 01:20:41.720 --> 01:20:44.640 care. All right, all right, everyone, So that's it for the 977 01:20:44.680 --> 01:20:49.359 show, Thanks so much for listening. Next week we have Sarah's Goals. 978 01:20:49.359 --> 01:20:53.880 She's going to be on and she's going to be talking about her interesting book. 979 01:20:54.359 --> 01:21:00.760 It's called They're Already Here ufl Culture and why we see Saucers and don't 980 01:21:00.800 --> 01:21:04.840 forget to check out our blog over at our website and that is called the 981 01:21:04.960 --> 01:21:11.000 UFO Crash in Aztec, New Mexico, and we also have T shirts. 982 01:21:11.560 --> 01:21:15.840 You can check that out on the website as well. So until next week, 983 01:21:15.319 --> 01:21:32.760 keep well and safe, keep social distance and keep your eyes to the sky,