Sco. What Up, What Up? What Up? Everybody? Welcome to
another episode of Let's Ask Paul the podcast where I, Paul Abernathy, try
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all right. Today we had a question that came in that I wanted
to dedicate some time to. And the question says, Paul, will you
explain more about the four to ten dot ten luminaires and specific locations. More
than happy to elaborate more on that and to maybe break that down and maybe
explain a couple things a little bit when it comes to that. So Obviously,
when you get illuminair, many people steal call light fixture. But you
get a lumina air and you install it in a dwelling in a building.
Again, obviously, typically it's a dry location, so we don't have any
issues. You can pretty much put the lumina air wherever you want, right
with obvious limitations if it's in closed closets and all that kind of stuff,
But in general, if it's just a lumina air and you install it,
not a problem. What you run into is when you're dealing with something like
wet or damp locations or corrosive locations and things like that, then you have
to step up the game a little bit and take a little harder look at
the luminair that you're installing. So that's kind of what we're going to talk
about today and see if we can't kind of nail that down at least the
most important ones to have. All right, So the first things first,
let's talk about installation of luminaires in a wet or a damp location. So
obviously, if it's a regular luminaire that you would install let's say in a
bedroom and a living room wherever that is not going to be conducive to install
that luminair in a wet or d amp location, unless, of course it's
what unless of course it is labeled as such, or it's got a listing
for use in those specific locations. Right, So for like a wet or
damp So let's look at it. So four to ten DOT ten is titled
luminaires in specific locations and a is wet in damp locations. It says luminai
is installed in a wet or damp location, shall be installed such that the
water cannot enter or accumulate in wiring compartments, lamp holders, or other electrical
parts. So there's specific ways that you mount these luminaires in order to keep
the water from potentially cumulating in the compartments. Uh. And there's also obviously
in a lot of cases when you install these, you're gonna you're gonna seal
along the tops and you leave the bottom open so water can drain if it
happens to get in behind the actual luminaire to the outlive box. But you
have to install the luminair in itself so that it's not sitting there with all
of its open parts waiting for rain to just or water to just go flooding
in Okay, and so you'll get instructions. If it is for wet or
damp location, you'll have an instruction manual and it'll give guidance for that.
So that's just the first part about it, making sure that you install it
so that it's that it cannot actually accumulate water again in the compartment's lampholder or
other electrical parts. Now it goes on to say all luminaires installed in a
wet location shall be marked as suitable for wet locations. So the manufacturers will
mark that on the actual luminair when it's on the box. Installation instructions may
even be on the luminair itself with a little label that says suitable for wet
locations. Then it goes on to say all luminaires installed in damp locations shall
be marked as suitable for wet locations or suitable for damp locations. So obviously,
anything that's going to be installed in a damp location, obviously wet is
a worse condition than the damp. So if it's already suitable for a wet
location, then it obviously is going to be okay for the damp location.
Now, one of the things to remember in this it does not say that
one that is suitable for a damp location can be installed in a wet location,
So it doesn't go that way. So the more restrictive is the wet
location, which is perfectly fine to use that same lumin air in a damp
but it doesn't go the other way. So if all you see is damp
location on it, then you're not going to be using it in a wet
location, only in a damp location. So the next one is B and
B is dealing with corrosive locations. So you could have a location where you
have a corrosive environment, whether it's atnospheric I think I said that funky atmospheric
condition, then you could have a corrosive environment. But whatever the condition is
orhere it may be, then a luminair that's installed in a corrosive location shall
be of the type suitable for that specific location. Okay. So that's something
to remember. I think about some of the luminaires that are installed in certain
areas of water treatment facilities that have a lot of corrosive conditions of atmospheric condition
that can create corrosion and things like that, so they're very hyper focused on
the type of luminaires obviously that they install in that environment, and they are
very aware of the corrosive nature that is in that environment, so they actively
will seek out illuminaires that are rated for such a location. That type of
thing. Let's see here the next one we'll go on and skip se,
which is in ducts or hoods. This is just allowing you to be able
to have a luminair inside of, for example, a commercial cooking hood.
Sometimes you look in these commercial cooking hoods and you'll see a luminair in there
with a glass enclosure, it has a metal wiring over it and all that
type of thing. Right, Well, you've got some conditions that have to
be met, and actually there's four conditions and they all have to be met.
So we won't go over that here because that's very specific and usually the
engineering of designed if they're going to get one of those hoods commercial cooking hoods,
typically it probably already has a luminair incorporated into it, and the manufacturer
of that hood is probably keenly aware of all of these conditions that have to
be met. Okay, so we're going to skip on down to the next
one, which is bathtub and shower area. So this is an important one
for us to look at. Now, remind you that I am under the
twenty twenty three edition of the NEEC, so it's important because it's pretty much
the same. But if you look at it through the different cycles, you
know there is some verbiage change in how it is in the actual twenty twenty
three and so we don't want to make sure it doesn't you know, throw
anybody off, right, because the real change that took place was the AD
revised it to add luminaries light kits connected to paddle fans. Okay, so
they added this paddle fans with this luminair like kits to it. Okay,
so that's the only real significant change. So let's read it and i'll explain
it. Okay. So let's say you want to put a lumina air and
you're in a bathroom. Let's say and you have a bathtub or you have
shower area. Okay, this isn't just this rule. Bathtub and shower area
is not specific to a bathroom. It's just in general, a bathtub or
shower area Okay, So it says a luminaire installed in a bathtub or shower
area shall meet all other following requirements, right number one, No part of
a cord connected luminaire chain cable or cord suspended luminaire lighting track, lighting or
a lighting track pendant or ceiling suspended pedal. Fans with luminaire like kits shall
be located within a zone measured three feet horizontal an eight feet vertical from the
top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold. And again the threshold of
the shower stall would be the point where again the point that you step over
or enter into the shower or and of course the bathroom rim is going to
encompass the bathroom rim of that tub, of the bathtub rim up, so
it's going to be three feet out horizontally and eight feet up vertically starting from
the top of the bathtub rim or the top of the shower stall threshold.
So none of those things that we just mentioned can be in that area.
Okay, Now that doesn't mean that I can't have a recess with a proper
lens cap cover on it that is rated for the environment, or wherever it
is but it's saying that I can't have cord connected luminaires, chain connected cable
or chord suspended luminaires. I can't have lighting tracks, I can't have pendance
in there. I can't have sealed submitted paddle fans with luminair like kits.
Okay, they can't any None of that can be stalled. And that three
foot by eight foot zone. And as I said, you measure that zone
from the top of the bathtub rim out three feet and up eight feet.
Or I could have the shower stall. You could have the threshold where you
step into the shower up. Okay, And that goes across the bottom whether
or not you have just a curtain you pull or it's a door and you
still have the let's say fixed panes of glass. The threshold is the threshold,
that's the bottom part where it transitions between the shower to whatever the walling
material is or the walkway that you walk in. Okay, that's the threshold,
the point where you can cross over to go into the shower. That's
your threshold. So you measure from there out three feet and up eight feet.
Now people ask, what if my ceiling is much higher than that.
Okay, Well, this all encompassing zone only goes from the top of the
bathtub out three feet and up eight feet, So if your ceiling is much
higher than that, then obviously you may be able to get one of these
types of lumina airs above that eight foot point. Now remember it's not eight
foot from the floor area up, it's from the top of the bathtub rim
or from the top of the actual shower stall threshold. That's what you measure
up. Okay, So that's really important to be aware of. I don't
know how many jobs I've gone into, and I just recently went to one
in Oklahoma as an inspection, and I looked at it and they had a
chandelier over the bathtub, and clearly it was going to protrude down into the
eight foot space from the top of the bathtub rim and that's a no go.
But it was up there, right, and so if it had been
a recess or something, you'd be like, no problem. But it was
obviously clear that that was going to be a pendant style chandelier and it couldn't
be in there. So what do you do? They cap it off,
But you know, you could get an over zealous inspector. But at the
end of the day, you know, you could just put a surface mount,
right, surface mount that's not cord connected, chain cable or chord suspended
or whatever, and you put that up there, and you know inspector can't
have any real problem with that that type of thing. So just just be
aware of that. Now, it goes on to number two and it says,
luminair is located within the actual outside dimensions of the bathtub or shower to
a height of eight feet vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower
threshold shall be marked suitable for damp locations or marked suitable for wet locations.
Luminaires located where subject to shower spray shall be marked suitable for wet locations.
So this is the one that's saying, Okay, I can have a regular
surface mount, you know, one of the ones that's not included in D
one. I can have a regular lumin air up there. But if I
do, it needs to be damp location, or like we said, we
could be more restrictive and it could be a wet location, because we know
wet locations can go in a damp but we know that a damp can't go
in a wet So it goes on to remind us though that maybe in some
of these really nice showers you might have some wallskances. Well, if that's
the case, if they're to the point where they are subject to spray just
because of their height, then they need to be wet. But if we're
talking about in the ceiling above it and the shower head is no way it's
going to spray water straight up, even though it could get some incidental from
bouncing off of somebody, I guess that is not subject to the shower spray.
Okay, So that is just you know, what might bounce off your
head or something like that. So at the end of the day, you
could use damp up there and anything that is subject to such spray, you
know, direct spray, then it would have to be wet. Now you're
gonna get some people that say, yeah, but if it's a removable head,
kids could turn it and shoot it straight up at the ceiling. You
know, with that same mentality, everything in your house could be subject to
physical damage and then it would be really a pain in the butt to enforce
the code. So some people take things so far extreme that it's like really,
I mean really, but at the end of the day, if you're
concerned about that, then make it wet location and you don't have to worry.
Okay, I mean that's just a way to think about it. Okay.
So that's so important to remember. So what are some of the things
you can do? Okay, Well, like I said, if you want
to put surface mounted or recess luminais rated for damp or wet location. Remember
that's what the D two is about. So if I want to put a
so basically you can a lot of times with the recesses. You just get
the lens cover that will turn that into a damp or wet location rating depending
on the lens cover. Right, you could have a pendent luminaire as long
as the ceiling maybe it's a Coffer type ceiling. Maybe it's up high enough
that the pendent luminair doesn't go down and it is outside of that eight feet
from the top of the bathtub rim all the way up eight feet. Well,
maybe the ceiling is a twelve foot ceiling and the pendent luminair only hangs
down two feet or something like that. You know, So again, as
long as it stays out of that eight foot from the top of the bathtub
rim, then you're okay, right, so you could have a really really
high ceiling in there, that type of thing. But if that pendant,
you know, hangs down and actually penetrates that eight foot zone that's above the
top of the rim, then you got to then you have a problem.
Let's see here, that's you know, that's the base pretty much the basic
for most of the stuff that we're gonna you know, you're going to cover
when it comes to those locations, and probably you know, there's other ones
that deal with luminaires and the inner indoor sports, mixed juice, all purpose
facilities. That's just code language. Read it. That is e So that
is four to ten and I'm not going to go into that because that's pretty
self explanatory. And then of course you have luminaires installed in or under roof
decking, you have some rules for that as well. And again you want
to make sure that the roof decking luminaire is installed inexposed or concealed locations under
roof decking we're subject to physical damage, shall be installed and supported. So
there is there is not less than one and a half inches measured from the
lowest surface of the roof decking to the top of the luminaire, right,
So you have some allowances for that, okay, all right, And again
that's so nobody drives these long screws through the roofing material, down through the
decking and then down into the luminair, right, makes sense. And that
also correlates with raceways and boxes and enclosures that are installed underneath that roof decking.
You get that in three hundred dot four E if you want to pause
and go read that. That's where you get some of the rules for that.
So it kind of correlates with that, and so it harmonizes the intent.
So whether it's a luminair or it's a boxes, or it's a raceway,
then you're going to have that inch and a half separation between the lowest
part of the decking and the top of the luminaire or in this case the
boxes, the raceways or whatnot. So anyway, that's a little extra for
you in three hundred dot four E when it comes to again cables, raceways
and boxes. So it's very similar for the luminaire application here under roof decking.
All right, all right, folks, that's pretty much all we wanted
to cover with this. Hopefully I answered those questions. And remember that when
we're talking about the area that three foot horizontally and eight foot vertically, that
is basically going out. If your tub was sitting by itself in the middle
of a room, right then the three foot horizontally would go out in all
directions. If it's sitting the bathtub is like in a cove between two walls,
like a normal bathtub, then it's going to be measured. Obviously,
the walls are on the sides, so it's gonna be measured from the bathtub
rim straight out three feet and then straight up eight feet that type scenario.
All right, all right, Well, if you got any questions on this,
and again there's always questions, you know what you can do Just go
to Paul Abernathy dot com, leave a comment in the the episode that you
are referring to ask your question. Be very specific on the code section,
even though I'm talking about the twenty twenty three in this episode. Be very
specific if you have any questions, and I am more than happy to elaborate
on anything for you. So hopefully we explained a little bit about lumin airs
in specific locations, and as we said, wet and damp, corrosive and
of course daftub and shower areas. All right, until next time, folks,
Stay safe, God bless