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Sco. What Up, What Up? What Up? Everybody? Welcome to

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another episode of Let's Ask Paul the
podcast where I, Paul Abernathy, try

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to answer all of your pressing,
electrical code related questions and of course anything

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electrically related I do my best.
Thanks for joining me on the podcast.

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If you have never listened to our
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EM dot com and of course that'll
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We do not want to charge people
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to physically put anything in your phone
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adaptive web app. That's it,
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it allows it to work like an
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the benefits of an app. We
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means that we can add things to
it without you having to read, download

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software and go through all that crap. Again, it's just the new way

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to do it, and that's how
we do it. So we're not into

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everybody knows me knows I'm not into
putting stuff in your phone, but we

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will ask you for permission to be
able to send you notices as well as

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your phone. That's our little genie.

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Let us put it on your phone
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at anytime. You can go right
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blogs, there's you can get to
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of things. Wire sizing overload,
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transform protection, even bending offsets,
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It's free and we're always adding new
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go get the free mobile app and
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app store. You go right to
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can get it. It's quicker.
Just go to n ec c cha t

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dot com. It's called nec chat
dot com and you'll see where you can

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download it directly from there on your
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you go there and you can scan
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it'll put it on your device.
Okay, all right, make so you

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do that. It's also a great
way to listen to our podcasts. Okay,

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all right. Today we had a
question that came in that I wanted

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to dedicate some time to. And
the question says, Paul, will you

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explain more about the four to ten
dot ten luminaires and specific locations. More

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than happy to elaborate more on that
and to maybe break that down and maybe

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explain a couple things a little bit
when it comes to that. So Obviously,

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when you get illuminair, many people
steal call light fixture. But you

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get a lumina air and you install
it in a dwelling in a building.

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Again, obviously, typically it's a
dry location, so we don't have any

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issues. You can pretty much put
the lumina air wherever you want, right

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with obvious limitations if it's in closed
closets and all that kind of stuff,

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But in general, if it's just
a lumina air and you install it,

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not a problem. What you run
into is when you're dealing with something like

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wet or damp locations or corrosive locations
and things like that, then you have

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to step up the game a little
bit and take a little harder look at

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the luminair that you're installing. So
that's kind of what we're going to talk

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about today and see if we can't
kind of nail that down at least the

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most important ones to have. All
right, So the first things first,

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let's talk about installation of luminaires in
a wet or a damp location. So

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obviously, if it's a regular luminaire
that you would install let's say in a

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bedroom and a living room wherever that
is not going to be conducive to install

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that luminair in a wet or d
amp location, unless, of course it's

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what unless of course it is labeled
as such, or it's got a listing

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for use in those specific locations.
Right, So for like a wet or

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damp So let's look at it.
So four to ten DOT ten is titled

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luminaires in specific locations and a is
wet in damp locations. It says luminai

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is installed in a wet or damp
location, shall be installed such that the

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water cannot enter or accumulate in wiring
compartments, lamp holders, or other electrical

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parts. So there's specific ways that
you mount these luminaires in order to keep

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the water from potentially cumulating in the
compartments. Uh. And there's also obviously

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in a lot of cases when you
install these, you're gonna you're gonna seal

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along the tops and you leave the
bottom open so water can drain if it

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happens to get in behind the actual
luminaire to the outlive box. But you

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have to install the luminair in itself
so that it's not sitting there with all

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of its open parts waiting for rain
to just or water to just go flooding

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in Okay, and so you'll get
instructions. If it is for wet or

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damp location, you'll have an instruction
manual and it'll give guidance for that.

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So that's just the first part about
it, making sure that you install it

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so that it's that it cannot actually
accumulate water again in the compartment's lampholder or

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other electrical parts. Now it goes
on to say all luminaires installed in a

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wet location shall be marked as suitable
for wet locations. So the manufacturers will

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mark that on the actual luminair when
it's on the box. Installation instructions may

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even be on the luminair itself with
a little label that says suitable for wet

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locations. Then it goes on to
say all luminaires installed in damp locations shall

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be marked as suitable for wet locations
or suitable for damp locations. So obviously,

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anything that's going to be installed in
a damp location, obviously wet is

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a worse condition than the damp.
So if it's already suitable for a wet

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location, then it obviously is going
to be okay for the damp location.

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Now, one of the things to
remember in this it does not say that

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one that is suitable for a damp
location can be installed in a wet location,

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So it doesn't go that way.
So the more restrictive is the wet

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location, which is perfectly fine to
use that same lumin air in a damp

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but it doesn't go the other way. So if all you see is damp

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location on it, then you're not
going to be using it in a wet

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location, only in a damp location. So the next one is B and

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B is dealing with corrosive locations.
So you could have a location where you

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have a corrosive environment, whether it's
atnospheric I think I said that funky atmospheric

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condition, then you could have a
corrosive environment. But whatever the condition is

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orhere it may be, then a
luminair that's installed in a corrosive location shall

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be of the type suitable for that
specific location. Okay. So that's something

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to remember. I think about some
of the luminaires that are installed in certain

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areas of water treatment facilities that have
a lot of corrosive conditions of atmospheric condition

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that can create corrosion and things like
that, so they're very hyper focused on

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the type of luminaires obviously that they
install in that environment, and they are

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very aware of the corrosive nature that
is in that environment, so they actively

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will seek out illuminaires that are rated
for such a location. That type of

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thing. Let's see here the next
one we'll go on and skip se,

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which is in ducts or hoods.
This is just allowing you to be able

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to have a luminair inside of,
for example, a commercial cooking hood.

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Sometimes you look in these commercial cooking
hoods and you'll see a luminair in there

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with a glass enclosure, it has
a metal wiring over it and all that

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type of thing. Right, Well, you've got some conditions that have to

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be met, and actually there's four
conditions and they all have to be met.

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So we won't go over that here
because that's very specific and usually the

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engineering of designed if they're going to
get one of those hoods commercial cooking hoods,

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typically it probably already has a luminair
incorporated into it, and the manufacturer

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of that hood is probably keenly aware
of all of these conditions that have to

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be met. Okay, so we're
going to skip on down to the next

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one, which is bathtub and shower
area. So this is an important one

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for us to look at. Now, remind you that I am under the

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twenty twenty three edition of the NEEC, so it's important because it's pretty much

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the same. But if you look
at it through the different cycles, you

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know there is some verbiage change in
how it is in the actual twenty twenty

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three and so we don't want to
make sure it doesn't you know, throw

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anybody off, right, because the
real change that took place was the AD

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revised it to add luminaries light kits
connected to paddle fans. Okay, so

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they added this paddle fans with this
luminair like kits to it. Okay,

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so that's the only real significant change. So let's read it and i'll explain

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it. Okay. So let's say
you want to put a lumina air and

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you're in a bathroom. Let's say
and you have a bathtub or you have

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shower area. Okay, this isn't
just this rule. Bathtub and shower area

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is not specific to a bathroom.
It's just in general, a bathtub or

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shower area Okay, So it says
a luminaire installed in a bathtub or shower

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area shall meet all other following requirements, right number one, No part of

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a cord connected luminaire chain cable or
cord suspended luminaire lighting track, lighting or

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a lighting track pendant or ceiling suspended
pedal. Fans with luminaire like kits shall

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be located within a zone measured three
feet horizontal an eight feet vertical from the

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top of the bathtub rim or shower
stall threshold. And again the threshold of

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the shower stall would be the point
where again the point that you step over

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or enter into the shower or and
of course the bathroom rim is going to

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encompass the bathroom rim of that tub, of the bathtub rim up, so

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it's going to be three feet out
horizontally and eight feet up vertically starting from

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the top of the bathtub rim or
the top of the shower stall threshold.

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So none of those things that we
just mentioned can be in that area.

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Okay, Now that doesn't mean that
I can't have a recess with a proper

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lens cap cover on it that is
rated for the environment, or wherever it

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is but it's saying that I can't
have cord connected luminaires, chain connected cable

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or chord suspended luminaires. I can't
have lighting tracks, I can't have pendance

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in there. I can't have sealed
submitted paddle fans with luminair like kits.

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Okay, they can't any None of
that can be stalled. And that three

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foot by eight foot zone. And
as I said, you measure that zone

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from the top of the bathtub rim
out three feet and up eight feet.

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Or I could have the shower stall. You could have the threshold where you

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step into the shower up. Okay, And that goes across the bottom whether

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or not you have just a curtain
you pull or it's a door and you

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still have the let's say fixed panes
of glass. The threshold is the threshold,

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that's the bottom part where it transitions
between the shower to whatever the walling

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material is or the walkway that you
walk in. Okay, that's the threshold,

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the point where you can cross over
to go into the shower. That's

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your threshold. So you measure from
there out three feet and up eight feet.

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Now people ask, what if my
ceiling is much higher than that.

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Okay, Well, this all encompassing
zone only goes from the top of the

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bathtub out three feet and up eight
feet, So if your ceiling is much

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higher than that, then obviously you
may be able to get one of these

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types of lumina airs above that eight
foot point. Now remember it's not eight

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foot from the floor area up,
it's from the top of the bathtub rim

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or from the top of the actual
shower stall threshold. That's what you measure

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up. Okay, So that's really
important to be aware of. I don't

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know how many jobs I've gone into, and I just recently went to one

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in Oklahoma as an inspection, and
I looked at it and they had a

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chandelier over the bathtub, and clearly
it was going to protrude down into the

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eight foot space from the top of
the bathtub rim and that's a no go.

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But it was up there, right, and so if it had been

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a recess or something, you'd be
like, no problem. But it was

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obviously clear that that was going to
be a pendant style chandelier and it couldn't

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be in there. So what do
you do? They cap it off,

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But you know, you could get
an over zealous inspector. But at the

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end of the day, you know, you could just put a surface mount,

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right, surface mount that's not cord
connected, chain cable or chord suspended

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or whatever, and you put that
up there, and you know inspector can't

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have any real problem with that that
type of thing. So just just be

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aware of that. Now, it
goes on to number two and it says,

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luminair is located within the actual outside
dimensions of the bathtub or shower to

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a height of eight feet vertically from
the top of the bathtub rim or shower

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threshold shall be marked suitable for damp
locations or marked suitable for wet locations.

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Luminaires located where subject to shower spray
shall be marked suitable for wet locations.

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00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:52,320
So this is the one that's saying, Okay, I can have a regular

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surface mount, you know, one
of the ones that's not included in D

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one. I can have a regular
lumin air up there. But if I

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do, it needs to be damp
location, or like we said, we

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could be more restrictive and it could
be a wet location, because we know

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wet locations can go in a damp
but we know that a damp can't go

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in a wet So it goes on
to remind us though that maybe in some

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of these really nice showers you might
have some wallskances. Well, if that's

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the case, if they're to the
point where they are subject to spray just

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because of their height, then they
need to be wet. But if we're

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talking about in the ceiling above it
and the shower head is no way it's

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going to spray water straight up,
even though it could get some incidental from

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bouncing off of somebody, I guess
that is not subject to the shower spray.

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Okay, So that is just you
know, what might bounce off your

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head or something like that. So
at the end of the day, you

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could use damp up there and anything
that is subject to such spray, you

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know, direct spray, then it
would have to be wet. Now you're

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gonna get some people that say,
yeah, but if it's a removable head,

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kids could turn it and shoot it
straight up at the ceiling. You

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know, with that same mentality,
everything in your house could be subject to

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physical damage and then it would be
really a pain in the butt to enforce

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the code. So some people take
things so far extreme that it's like really,

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I mean really, but at the
end of the day, if you're

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concerned about that, then make it
wet location and you don't have to worry.

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Okay, I mean that's just a
way to think about it. Okay.

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So that's so important to remember.
So what are some of the things

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you can do? Okay, Well, like I said, if you want

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to put surface mounted or recess luminais
rated for damp or wet location. Remember

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that's what the D two is about. So if I want to put a

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so basically you can a lot of
times with the recesses. You just get

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the lens cover that will turn that
into a damp or wet location rating depending

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on the lens cover. Right,
you could have a pendent luminaire as long

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as the ceiling maybe it's a Coffer
type ceiling. Maybe it's up high enough

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that the pendent luminair doesn't go down
and it is outside of that eight feet

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from the top of the bathtub rim
all the way up eight feet. Well,

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maybe the ceiling is a twelve foot
ceiling and the pendent luminair only hangs

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down two feet or something like that. You know, So again, as

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long as it stays out of that
eight foot from the top of the bathtub

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rim, then you're okay, right, so you could have a really really

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high ceiling in there, that type
of thing. But if that pendant,

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you know, hangs down and actually
penetrates that eight foot zone that's above the

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top of the rim, then you
got to then you have a problem.

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Let's see here, that's you know, that's the base pretty much the basic

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for most of the stuff that we're
gonna you know, you're going to cover

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when it comes to those locations,
and probably you know, there's other ones

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that deal with luminaires and the inner
indoor sports, mixed juice, all purpose

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facilities. That's just code language.
Read it. That is e So that

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is four to ten and I'm not
going to go into that because that's pretty

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self explanatory. And then of course
you have luminaires installed in or under roof

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decking, you have some rules for
that as well. And again you want

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to make sure that the roof decking
luminaire is installed inexposed or concealed locations under

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roof decking we're subject to physical damage, shall be installed and supported. So

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there is there is not less than
one and a half inches measured from the

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lowest surface of the roof decking to
the top of the luminaire, right,

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So you have some allowances for that, okay, all right, And again

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that's so nobody drives these long screws
through the roofing material, down through the

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decking and then down into the luminair, right, makes sense. And that

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also correlates with raceways and boxes and
enclosures that are installed underneath that roof decking.

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You get that in three hundred dot
four E if you want to pause

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and go read that. That's where
you get some of the rules for that.

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So it kind of correlates with that, and so it harmonizes the intent.

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So whether it's a luminair or it's
a boxes, or it's a raceway,

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then you're going to have that inch
and a half separation between the lowest

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part of the decking and the top
of the luminaire or in this case the

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boxes, the raceways or whatnot.
So anyway, that's a little extra for

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you in three hundred dot four E
when it comes to again cables, raceways

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and boxes. So it's very similar
for the luminaire application here under roof decking.

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All right, all right, folks, that's pretty much all we wanted

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to cover with this. Hopefully I
answered those questions. And remember that when

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we're talking about the area that three
foot horizontally and eight foot vertically, that

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is basically going out. If your
tub was sitting by itself in the middle

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of a room, right then the
three foot horizontally would go out in all

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directions. If it's sitting the bathtub
is like in a cove between two walls,

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like a normal bathtub, then it's
going to be measured. Obviously,

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the walls are on the sides,
so it's gonna be measured from the bathtub

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rim straight out three feet and then
straight up eight feet that type scenario.

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All right, all right, Well, if you got any questions on this,

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and again there's always questions, you
know what you can do Just go

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00:21:42,279 --> 00:21:48,920
to Paul Abernathy dot com, leave
a comment in the the episode that you

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00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,000
are referring to ask your question.
Be very specific on the code section,

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even though I'm talking about the twenty
twenty three in this episode. Be very

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specific if you have any questions,
and I am more than happy to elaborate

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on anything for you. So hopefully
we explained a little bit about lumin airs

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in specific locations, and as we
said, wet and damp, corrosive and

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of course daftub and shower areas.
All right, until next time, folks,

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Stay safe, God bless