What is up? Everybody? Welcome, Happy Saturday morning. Welcome everybody to
Hobby Hotline, the Hobbies only live call in show. This is episode two
hundred and thirty nine. Wow, that's a lot, but welcome everybody in
today, everybody watching on Bench, Clear Media and everywhere else. Thank you
guys so much for tuning in. My name, of course is Drew or
the d H joining me today. We've got the man himself, the rookie
card man Victor. How's it going dude? Good morning, Howdy howdy?
Doing good? Doing good? And then we also have Demand himself, King
Nascar. Mister Logan, what's up Dad? Oh, not much man,
just just hanging out with you guys and enjoy enjoin on nice weekend. I
hear you morning, Mad City Brew. Thanks everybody for tuning in once again.
If you'd like to call in and join the show, of course,
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today morning US sports cards from Syracuse, Madison, Wisconsin, all over the
globe. Morning. Everybody. Hope everyone's having a great day. It's a
really nice day here too. I don't know how it is over your guys
way, but we actually have some nice weather for once. Good so you're
lucky, you'll hear in Memphis is typical Memphis summer weather. It's like in
the high nineties and like the humidities like in the nineties, so fun times.
We had beautiful sunshine this morning with the birds singing, and then a
half hour later a rainstorm. So yeah, unfortunately I have to leave this
nice this nice weather in North Carolina. That guy go down to Florida tomorrow
do some work for a gym mint. But guys, let's dive right into
it. I would say it was a slow week in the hobby, but
there isn't a slow week in the hobby. You know, last weekend on
last week show, I know, everyone talked a lot about the Panini lawsuit
that they'd filed against Fanatics. Well, after that show was over and after
the weekend was over, once Monday rolled around, Fanatics decided to say Hey,
we'll dive in on this tip and dive in they did. We'll just
start off with a blanket question and here, what do you guys think about
this counter countersuit filed by fanatics because it is who they went in deep?
Yeah? May we keep doing that? Man, senor seniority, you're older,
so go ahead. Oh thanks a lot. I mean, I didn't
really read it, but from the things that I've heard online, a lot
of it is, you know, just them complaining mostly about Panini, and
you're making complaints and not necessarily you know, anything that's that's based on actual
fact. That's that's what I've heard. I may be wrong about that,
but that's that's the sentiment that I've gotten online. Can I go now go?
I love you loan? Uh no for me? Yeah, it was.
It was pretty cool. I thought it was, you know, fight
fire with fire. It is, But a couple of things really stood out
to me that that makes me kind of scratch to my head, and that
is the uh. First of all, it was a hundred page document,
and it seems like that that hundred page document didn't get written overnight. It
seems like Fanatics had this, uh this document ready to go whenever needed.
Well, I want you to keep going with that for just a second,
but I will tell you that I can't name the employee, but an employee
at Panini at the National did tell me that this lawsuit was coming. They
said, they said, just the big news isn't going to be at the
National. It'll be a couple of days later, and it'll involve the courts.
So right away I knew a lawsuit was coming. So I'm pretty sure
fanatics knew as well. Yeah. Yeah, But for fanatics to turn around
and counter just days later and give a hundred page document, I just seem
to think that document was being formulated way before the news came. They they've
been sitting on this weight in the blast in the event that something like this
happened. Well, well, I think you know. The inside the document,
it kind of tells you why they thought that, and that's because they
did have they already agreed to that injunction with Panini employees, saying that you
know, they wouldn't let them talk to other employees and help them do this
in that like they had already made concessions to Panini, when obviously Panini had
been kind of hinting and fighting at this for a while. It looks like
trying to find some of the quotes here right now. But yeah, I
mean they actually took on whereas it let's see here, Yeah, that Panini
brought suits against all their at will former employees without non compete restrictions who took
jobs at Fanatics, and it threatened to do the same to others. Fanatics
consented to a contemporary injunction barring seven former Panini employees from recruiting others away or
using confidential information. So they definitely, you know, they've been fighting this
kind of in the background of the courts for a little while. Now it
looks like and it looks like they all this and you know, I wasn't
on the show last week. I think Panini had to do this. They
didn't really have a choice at this point in time. But one thing I
do think, and I do agree with US sports Cards as these legal fees
mount. If this stuff does keep going to court, if it makes it
to discovery, which I want to touch on in a minute, but if
it makes you know, if it keeps going, they've got to make up
those profits elsewhere, which absolutely could result in higher prices. I don't think
we get higher prices, but it's possible, you know, it definitely is
possible. But Fanatics many they really went in on Panini. I mean they
called him a stagnant, long time incumbinant, that is, complacement and failed
to invest in market innovations instead funneling profits to its owners in Italy, and
that choice yielded a track record of dismal customer service, quality control issues,
shoddy product offerings, vast numbers of outstanding redemption cards, a missed opportunity it
used to grow revenues. I mean they put in photos from articles that we
had written a long time ago, with the patches. They did everything.
Wow, like they attacked. If you go into this document, they they
really went after them. And the first thing I thought of when I had
read this whole thing and saw it was yet there goes any chance of any
negotiation. I think we can firmly assume that Pannini and Fanatics negotiations are probably
out the window unless Pannini ends up selling off the card market side of their
company for pennies on the dollar. But this is not going to be Yeah,
there's no more negotiations, at least in my eyes. But you know,
here's here's an analogy that I make about the situation. I'd look at
it as fanatics and Panini behave misbehaving, like like children misbehaving. Oh yeah.
And if I look at the parents, which to me I consider the
Players Association and the leagues, I believe they're the parents, and I just
think it's it's uh, the kids are out of order because the parents are
out of order. And when you when you look at what they've done,
I don't, I don't. I didn't agree with the Players Association signing a
twenty year deal in the middle of when there was three years left on the
on the current one. Yea, I believe, you know they did that
kind of thing should have been like open to the market, like who all
right, who wants to be on a bidding war? What if? What
if Panini would have came in with a higher bid? Were they even given
a chance to come in at a higher bid? Right? They probably left
some money on the table there, I would say, it seems very the
whole It just seems corrupt. No, they definitely left money on the table,
and you know, I agree they should be on bids now. Unfortunately,
with what you know, cards and everything, and these entities are class
of fight as they're not required by law to be put up on bids like
a lot of things would be. But you know, I mean, hey,
I always look at it as hey, Panini didn't buy these licenses.
I mean, they didn't bid on these licenses when they got them. They
bought out don Rust Playoff and you know that those licenses came with it,
So you know, I did find it funny and then fighting that when you
know they never bid on it themselves. But I do agree bids should be
I think they should be put up on bids. But I'll also ask you
guys this, because this is gonna be if this stuff goes forward, which
will touch on if we think that will happen or not. But if this
does go forward, exclusives are going to be heavily, heavily front and center
on this. Do you guys think we could possibly see a change and do
we want to see a change where there aren't exclusives. Now I'm not saying
going back to the nineties where every company can print fifty products a year if
they want to, but possibly these know, these organizations saying hey, okay,
we're not going to do exclusives. But so and so company can produce
this much a year. You know, do we see a change in exclusives?
Well, you know, coke needs PEPSI So I think that, yes,
I think that there should be multiple manufacturers of trading cards with particular licenses,
no doubt. You know, I'd like to see TOPS. I think
it'd be cool if TOPS did Nascar cards. You know, I would not
have any problem with that, But I think there would need to be some
kind of limitations, Like you you're allowed to produce X number of products every
year, and like you said, not flood the market like we had back
in the late eighties early nineties where everybody had licensed and everybody was just printing
you know the presses we're running twenty four seven. Uh no, we don't.
We don't need that. So I think I think that, yeah,
it'd be a good thing. I don't know for me. To me,
it's to finish my analogy. It's like a It's like an ugly divorce that
ends up in the courts, right, the kids of that divorce end up
getting the consequences. And I believe in the in the same vein the collect
at the end of this, the collectors are going to be the ones that
pay the consequences. Unfortunately. No, yeah, good, I completely agree,
And you know, Steele City DW. It's funny you say that because
one of those things fanatics criticized Pinnity for was lack of innovation in their in
their counters So competition does breed innovation. Maybe that's where that lack of innovation
came from. You can kind of touch on what you think innovation is at
any point in time. But guys, once again, please call in.
Feel free, call in, join the show, let us know what you
think about all of it, or if you have any questions or anything in
the hobby you'd like to discuss. But okay, so you know fanatics,
they did their countersuit all this stuff. I think we can all agree.
It's probably gonna be pretty quiet from now on. The lawsuits are out.
Normally that's when everyone has to shut up. They can't start running their mouths
and doing this kind of stuff. But I think it gets quiet. But
the thing that's interesting is if one of these can make it to Discovery because
in that lost biggest thing we've lost over and really something that I hope to
go. I don't hope they can prove, but if you're going to make
this allegation in a legal counter suit, you better be able to prove it.
They're saying that Panini inflated their profits by two hundred million dollars a year,
so they're basically accusing them of cooking the books. Well, if we
hit discovery, all those books and everything get open, that's a pretty heavy
allegation to be made. Even if it's only fifty million, you're talking about
on four or five years. Now you're looking at over two hundred million.
It's two hundred million dollars a year. That's that's crazy. I think discoveries
where we want to get with this to see if there was eruption or not.
Yeah, and I don't think I think this lawsuit is going to be
just as important as the one when Flear sued tops back. That one started
in nineteen seventy five and judgment wasn't passed until nineteen eighty, so that one
was deliberated in the courts for five years. Yeah, So I don't know
that we're going to get to something quick here. So it's gonna be real
interesting how things unfold. I hope it's settled quickly, but that's typically not
the case in these situations, and the courts are moving even slower these days.
So I'm with you guys. I don't expect to see any kind of
judgment or any kind of like you said, discovery or anything happening anytime in
the near future. No, And Collector's Name does make a good point on
exclusives. You know, they do have those rights hammer down, so you
won't licenses will not be changing at least the ones that just re upt for
a long time. And yeah, we're kind of talking long term here is
you know, this court case could have ramifications on licensing if they wanted.
Deep Piers has a question here. I'm wondering how Panini had these licenses and
did not have the ability to match bids written into the contracts. Seems like
an error by them. Well, I want to know what you guys think
about this, but honestly, like it goes back to what I said earlier,
they bought these from Don Russ playoff like they inherited these licenses when they
bought the intellectual property and they bought the company. That's how they got these
licenses. And then they turned into you know, basically exclusives. So it's
definitely an error on their part to not make it to where because they could
have written into the contract that it had to be up for bids, They
could have done stuff like that, but they didn't. And so I think
they took the regular old contracts they had before, figured that they could make
a good enough product that they wouldn't want to leave, and they were at
least when Michael Rubin comes in with a lot of money and a game plan
that sounds like heaven if you're a card company. Yep, So that that
that's personally, But what do you guys think air by Panini not to make
it to where the licenses have to be up for bids. Yeah, definitely,
and and and shame on the on the players Association in my in my
opinion, I agree, No, I completely agree with the players association part.
That's the biggest issue. Why why wouldn't there be language in there now?
Now we're having fanatics sign exclusive deals with with n NBA players when Pannini
still holds the license, and and there's no where's where's the players Association at
here? They're just hitting the sand in the corner. Counting your money is
what they're doing when you know that type of stuff should have all been spelled
out from the get go. No, I completely agree with you. I
think the Players Association, like you said, they're all about the money.
It's all they care about. Fanatics came in with a deal that promised them
more money, basically doing what they just you know, had to do.
Anyway, So you know, a lot of blame does need to be placed
on the Players Association and the leagues for this. They all were involved in
all of this. But anyway, it'll be interesting to see. But Fanatics
did file a countersuit on Panini, so we'll see what happens in the court
system. Steele said. He says sounds like a monopoly to me, Victor,
it is, yep. And you know, some Tim Wong would tops
Anniversary be better if they had the original fifty three cards inserted in set chrome.
Yeah. That's another thing that's kind of upsetting me this week, to
be honest with you, is we're still releasing twenty twenty two product in the
middle of August of twenty twenty three. It's like, come on, you
know, there's bet of the I mean, I know, you can only
catch up so much, but you've got to take a hit. Find that
draft. They've got to find that draft class where they're like, Okay,
honestly, this draft class is not up to par. We're not going to
have a god in this draft class that everyone's gonna chase after use that year,
cut some products and catch up upper decks the worst they're putting it out
from like three years ago. Yeah, and they're updates that they're having to
put into other products, which I love that they do instead or redemptions.
I mean, you don't you you get a product that you don't think,
like sp authentic and it's got cards in it from the last fifteen years.
I mean, they're they've fallen so far behind it's absolutely insane. And what's
that log? Oh I was just gonna say, Yeah, as far as
the manufacturers are concerned, I think what they need to try to do is
at least keep their flagships contiguous, you know, twenty two, twenty three
and all that. But you know, some of these more specialty brands just
you know, just suck it up and just cut your losses and just say,
okay, you know, we didn't catch up in twenty twenty three.
Let's just named this product twenty twenty four, and let's just move on and
catch up with what we need to do. Yeah, so we've got yeah,
I completely agree, and we've got a couple of questions on the chat
and a couple of comments. We're gonna go uh here in order real quick
some Tim Wong asked Capanini pretender at least twenty twenty two, and he was
active players since Top says, yeah, they probably could. They could probably
get away with that. I doubt they want any more legal problems. They're
already uh, you know, spending enough on legal fees, and I think
that would probably cost them a little bit more. But yeah, you know,
they might be able to. But hey, I think Don Russ has
an awesome product this year and all I see or you know, Hall of
famers and prospects. But what's up. I see a big disaster coming for
the rookies of upcoming product with just the yeah you know Rex mentioned it,
and it's gonna be you know, especially your your rookie autograph cards. It's
just gonna be a cluster. It's oh no, it's it's gonna be insane.
And this was a massive All right, it all goes back to all
this stuff started, and all this mess really started with Ben's when Ben Simmons
signed that signed his exclusive and he was the first person since the hobby really
blew up that you know, everyone was chasing when Ben Simmons came out.
I don't know if you guys remember, he was the hottest thing in the
world. It was almost Wemby level type of hype. And then you found
out he was not going to have any rookie autos, any license rookie autos.
So people had to figure out a card to chase of his. They
had to find that quote unquote big rookie. That's how the silver Prism became
what it is. They landed on the silver prism all of a sudden,
silver prisms years later, you see what happened this year though, I mean
that you don't do that anymore. This is known now and now, like
Rex says, you're gonna have and you will have that. We've been talking
about this on our ship. Let me get that potograph for weeks when people
said, no, they are going to be in it because they're in chronicles.
No, these were stickers and leftover autographs. That they had from previous
stuff before the exclusives were signed. But Stroud Young Levis absolutely are going are
not going to be in pro uniform products with autographs, and Wemby I've already
been told has also signed. So yeah, you're not going to have any
of those licensed rookies. Yeah. And when it comes to those players and
Victor, I know you, especially with rookies, I mean, how big
of an impact do you think that's going to have on their market because obviously
these are I mean you can argue the quarterbacks, but Web if he becomes
who he's supposed to become, kind of effect do you think that has not
having a real licensed rookie. Yeah, that's that's gonna be that's gonna be
a big issue, especially to the traditionalist collectors that like that kind of thing.
But I think this is an issue right here, this topic. Since
they went ahead and peeled the scab and took it to the courts, I
think this is this is a topic that should be dealt with in the courts
if since they opened since they opened up that door, let's go ahead and
deal with this issue for the future, and let's try to bring some lines
of clarity here. Yeah, legally anyways, No, I completely agree with
you, especially when it comes to and you see Panini. Now Ever,
since these exclusives have started happening, you've been seeing Panini snag up every single
person they can with nil deals, trying to get them into the Panini family.
Early. I mean, I think they snagged like eight or nine high
school basketball players just probably just so if they become huge they can't in an
exclusive elsewhere. You know, they're trying everything they can to snag these guys
up. But like correct says, the biggest impact is on the big stuff,
the lawless, immaculate, nor Specter, the rpas, those are like
I said, like I was talking about with Ben Simmons, he didn't have
any of that stuff because he signed that exclusive. It's once again we can
blame Ben Simmons for a lot of things in life. We can blame him
for this problem. He kind of led the way on this trend. But
yeah, I think with in Wemby's case, I think you're going to see
the prism stuff, his silvers, things like that hold a lot more value
than usual. And when it comes to the quarterbacks, it's gonna be the
same type of thing. I think optic, I think prism. I think
things like that are gonna hold a lot of value. And then just the
I mean, I guess you could say the logo men and the shields and
stuff like that from National Treasures, but they're not game used, so I
mean, you know, none of them are game used, So does it
really matter? I mean, I think it has a massive effect on the
football market. Basketball. I think they just move over like Ben Simmons due
to the silver prism, and Okay, that's going to be a big thing.
Football going to be interesting, Yeah, And I guess this opens up
the question too, what is going to be the popularity of unlicensed product then
in the years to come, especially with NT and Flawless and that it's probably
going to be unlicensed, So it's going to be, you know, no
logos, that kind of thing. And I know I heard Brian Gray in
an interview this past week making his case once again for why you know,
logos aren't important, But you know, I don't. I think, time
and time again, the hobby. I don't know if it's the majority or
the minority, but I mean it seems like the licensed product is more desirable.
I know that's A. That's a that's a tough one to deal with.
Man. Yeah, No, I like licensed products just because I want
to see the logos of the teams, you know, seeing I just like
all of that. I think that when you airbrush out or what I say,
airbrush that shows you how old I am. When you photoshop out some
of this stuff, it just doesn't look as good. It just doesn't have
the eye appeal to me. And again, it's just unlicensed. So I
mean, I just don't know why I would want to buy a bunch of
unlicensed products. Well, I think there's a market for unlicensed I believe there's
there is a lot of people who like it, right don't. But my
question is it comes down to each individual preference. Right, I like unlicensed,
But which one do I prefer most? I prefer the licensed stuff,
to be honest. Well, well, I just go back to stuff like
this, and I'm just gonna hold up two cards as an example. Okay,
so this is an Xavier Isaac's first bowman green. Okay, on that
card, that is a license card. The only thing you can see is
half of the b in Tampa Bay on his helmet. That's it. That's
the only thing you can see right on you. It's a licensed card.
You can go back old school, oh J. Simpson. There's no logo,
there's no nothing. It says Buffalo instead of maybe it says bills were
in other cases it would say Buffalo. So like, I understand the licensing
aspect of it, but if you really take a look at so many cards,
they're so little that's done with this photo shop and this stuff. I
mean, the biggest thing I think would be Yankee pin stripes. I don't
know if people know that, but Panini can't use the Yankee pin stripes.
But you know that. To me, it's always been I understand it because
it's quote unquote unlicensed. But I look at half of these photos of cards
we're going to talk about later, and you don't even see a third or
logo in any of them. Yeah, but yeah, My argument in that
deal is like some of the key cards, like Walter Payton doesn't you can't
see any sign of the bears either. But it's one of them things where
only a few cards in the set has it as opposed to the entire set.
No, I agree, I agree, Yeah, I do agree.
Right has a great question here, and that regards arch Manning. If everyone
saw his first card, which all went to charity, his throw black Auto
which has been made now, it's actually really nice looking card. He did
a good job signing it too, sold for over one hundred thousand dollars.
But now will he have any cards in Bowman You? If he has an
NIL deal with Panini, can tops even use his photo? And from my
understanding, unless they sign if they have an NIL deal outside of everything,
I do not think they can use his card. I do not think they
can even have him as a first like non auto from my understanding, I
don't know NIL as opposed to players Association things like that, But I believe
the name, image and likeness unless he signs a separate one, I believe
that does count him out. I mean, he definitely won't have autographs,
but I don't I don't think he'll have any cards in Bowming You. Interesting.
Yeah, I haven't heard anything about the NIL Trump and all the other
licenses. I did not know that. Yeah, I'm not sure about that.
My guess is that they probably he probably wouldn't have signed it if he
couldn't be in Bowman You and get some residuals off of that. So my
guess is that he'll probably have some way to be in into that, And
I'm sure if the Manning family wants him to be in those products, he'll
be in them. But you won't get autographs because the NIL. But that's
a very good question, Rex, and I don't know their to how that
nil. Trump's the college license and stuff like that that TOPS has with Bowing
You and stuff like. I think he will be in Bowman You because of
the TOPS holds the secen right, Yes, yeah, I would agree there,
I don't think, but I don't know if it'll be like Steel City
said, action shots stuff like that. It may be a helmet off like
type of portrait, type of photo. I don't know how much they're gonna
be using the logos. I don't know. I don't know how that works.
Actually, it's a very good question, Retch, and I'm very curious
about it. Rex also sos Fanatics also making moves signing retired players to exclusives
and that this is interesting and dictating what they can and can't sign. Wow.
Yeah, Peyton, for example, I heard about this and I was
actually going to bring this up. Rex. Peyton is now a Fanatics exclusive
and it can not sign Pannini cards. And I will tell you this is
a very big thing. The undertakers signed when he signed when he retired and
signed his Legends agreement. Wwe put in a massive amount of stuff on the
exact cards. He can sign the exact cards, he can't. I think
this is going to be a very very big thing going forward. But what
do you guys think about that? Well, you know, several years ago
I did the bo Bikes Bama ride down in Auburn, Alabama, and of
course Bo Jackson was there. King Griffy Junior was there. After after the
after the ride, I went up to Bo Jackson to getting to sign just
my my number from my jersey. He signed that. I got King Griffy
Junior to sign it. But then people came up with trading cards for then
him to sign and he said, I'm sorry, I can't sign any of
those. It's you know, due to my deal. So yeah, I
didn't. I didn't know that. With Peyton Manning, that's the it's very
new. It's very new. But yes, they are signing up a lot
of older players and a lot of the new Fanatics exclusives, a lot of
the new stuff that you see, especially with retired players. Look at that
language because they're putting it in there a lot. They're trying to do it
very very very specific. They're trying to do the jordan Esque deals, which
you know, as we all talked about, you know, Lebron possibly still
not being an Upper Deck exclusive. He's still not on their exclusives page anymore.
But one million cups project my man jumping in with some great information.
Only way Arch can be in bowman You is, like I thought, if
he signs a deal with Fanatics. Fanatics owns a school license, but they
can only put in players sign to NIL. So Arch would have to sign
a separate agreement with Fanatics as well, which he can do. He's exclusive
in terms of autographs and things like that, but it is not an exclusive
NIL license. He could theoretically license themselves out for bowming you. But I
think you're gonna see Arch Manning. Here we go again. They're gonna take
over the NFL license, tops You're very soon and now Arch Manning not gonna
have licensed stuff probably as well. So all these big guys are getting snagged
up by the opposite companies like they're getting signed. They're getting snagged up by
all the people that don't have the license right now, and that that's gonna
be really really interesting in a couple of years to watch the market on their
rookie cards or when they finally get you know, an actual licensed auto or
those gonna start to you know, command insane money. You know, how
is all that going to play out? Because it's definitely gonna change. You
know, it's kind of like the vintage days where you had Mickey Mann not
being in like fifty four Tops, you know, things like that. So,
I mean, because back then that's what they did. All the players
signed individual contracts with Tops or Bowmen or whoever. And of course they didn't
get paid a lot of money. It's like here's a catalog of things you
can get out of the catalog, like a toaster or something. I mean,
you didn't get a lot, but still still, I mean they did
have exclusive deals back then. Yeah, yes, Rex, it will when
he does go pro. I misspoke. I meant his Bowman stuff, like
in terms of like licensed college stuff, his pre pre rookie stuff, his
first Bowmans, which I think I still think the first Bowmans, which here
I got a question for your Victor. While we're on this topic, what
do you think about bowman you, while we're talking about it right now,
being a rookie card guy and being everything like that with fanatics getting all these
licenses to you know, obviously football and basketball eventually and now they're starting to
put out cards. Was first bowman on it when BB being a great example?
Do you think do you think that these hobbies are going to adopt the
first bowman like baseball has. Do you see that happening or do you see
this as people saying, Okay, it's really just a glorified college card because
there's not that minor league system. Even though the NBA is putting one in
place, there's not that minor league system like baseball. Yeah, I think
it's I don't know, it's it's going to the cards will be popular and
wanted and desired during the release, right but then as soon as the pro
stuff starts coming out, it seems like the bowman first or the bowman you
they start to fizzle out. When you look at values of this stuff,
they take off, but when they come down, they come down and they
stay there. So I don't know, it's that's how I view it as
technically speaking, Uh, you know, does the hobby Will the hobby evolve
towards that? I mean there's a there's a section of the hobby that does
that already has but you know, again, what's the silent minority, what's
the silent majority? It's going to be Uh, they prefer the hobby still
prefers Uh, rookie cards that are fully licensed that are you know, that
have all the bells and whistles. Yeah, and this collegiate stuff they've been
you know, college basketball. That stuff's been around since the nineties, you
know, and it's it really go look at the values of that stuff in
the nineties, and I mean they made a ton of it, all kind
of different, you know, Collector's edge and a press pass was my favorite,
with the nets, the ai dita. Uh, but go look at
the values and the desirability of those cards today. I mean, they're just
not there. As soon as the pro cards come out, it trumps everything
else. Yeah. From a collectibility standpoint, there they are collectible, but
like you said, they're just there's no value in them. And if you're
just a true collector's that's fine, they're great. But if you're if you're
looking to try to trade those cards. Maybe you sell those cards. You
can't do that. I agree to an extent. I think it's way different
than baseball because the first bowmans in baseball, they're at least in the uniforms
of pro teams. You know, the first bowmans aren't in college uniforms or
something like that. They get them in a actual MLB uniform for bowmen and
things like that. But as as Steel City does say, you know,
this is a growing market, the nil market is a growing market. Kind
of like I look at it kind of like F one wwe all that stuff
a couple of years ago. It's just now starting to get it build its
way into the hobby. And I don't really know if we know what it's
going to be yet. I could see some bowmans especifically, like the Wemby
with that in that green with the first Auto I ever signed type of card.
I think that type of stuff is going to hold some value. I
think the NBA probably has the best chance of it actually working and becoming a
thing, as within ten years, the NBA is basically going to have a
farm system. They're going to have like a lower A, a mid A,
type of deal like baseball, and so when they get there, I
can easily see the NBA adopting it. But I do agree. I think
the rookies are always going to trump in those sports, and just just like
they really do in baseball, you just have that big segment of bowman diehards.
But I mean, like in the nineties, right they would release that
collegiate stuff like during the off season, like you know, and then come
October they would release the pro stuff. But to me, it was that
window of during the summer that a lot of this stuff was released and it
was popular. I mean, people dug it. But I mean nowadays we
release NBA product like You're round. Oh, I know, all the sports
it's like You're round, there's releases. So yeah, I don't know,
and I do agree with rect right here. It is funny. The college
memorabilia market is massive, Like even for a school like my like East Carolina,
which is what I super collect and what like my shoes and everything on
the wall back here are even that stuff just goes for absurd money. Like
the college memorabilia market is so different than the college card market. I think
if we get some more people from that memorabilia market to start getting some cardboard,
that would help a lot. But it is a very very big difference.
Obviously the pro market they're huge, but college memorabilia compared to college cards
massively, massively big. So yeah, as Rex says, they had Anthony
Thomas last year. His Michigan helmets and jerseys helped sold his bare stuff five
to one. And they're closer to Chicago than an arbor. So yeah,
yeah, No, the college stuff is cheers. I mean, Johnny Manzel
or Baker Mayfield, they still command quite a bit with their stuff with college
none of the pro stuff, but the college stuff matters. Yeah, one
million Cubs projects completely agree, similar to pro wrestling, huge, but the
card market is not at all same with memorabilia. But guys, I wanted
to touch on one thing when we're talking. Earlier, Rex was mentioned in
National Treasures and we talked about National Treasures to high end stuff and about how
these quarterbacks from this year probably aren't going to have our PA's. Well,
National Treasures last year just dropped and those quarterbacks all did have our PA's in
it. And the Brock Party one of one true RPA shield, well that
took like two days to get pulled. It was cold, and it has
been confirmed that it sold in a private sale for over They won't say the
exact number, but they will confirm that it's sold for over a hundred thousand
dollars, making him the eleventh active NFL player to have a card sell for
one hundred thousand dollars or more. Wow, just what Brock Brock party?
Really crazy money? I mean, at least it's not the mac Jones prison
finite for one hundred grand, but still, like, come on, yeah,
what what did you call? You said it was a true RP.
It's a true it's his true RPA out of ninety nine they call it,
you know, the one out of ninety nine, none of the parallels.
Well, it was his one of one, but his one of one shield
RPA because they normally have a horizontical and a vertical, and the verticals considered
the true if you want to call it, okay, and so the vertical
shield one of one sold for over one hundred thousand dollars. Wow, Yeah,
that's amazing. Steel City says, hot take, he's a lottery ticket
right now? At one hundred grand? Is he a lottery ticket? I
mean yes, he's a lottery ticket one thousand percent. But I mean,
I thought people had learned by now. They haven't learned. I thought people
had learned. Like trading card history keep repeating itself. There's only so much
for attack right off. Like, I mean, a lot of people don't
get that. A lot of these big sales when they drop in prices,
Yeah, they get a nice little tax right off on some of it.
But I mean, you ain't getting it on this that much. I don't
get it. I don't get it. Alongside I'm gonna be San Francisco,
that's the big thing. Who the hell, who the hell knows? Who
knows? Is not gonna be Trey Lance? But who sold that card?
Where was it sold? Bad? I'll pull it up right now. It
was so it was a private sale, I believe at a card shop.
Let me see, I have it right here, Okay, okay. It
was pulled by a group called card Hub, and card Hub confirmed that it
was a private sale that was over one hundred thousand dollars, but they will
not give the actual number on it. Yeah, so, okay, all
right, it's a private sale, right, looks like it was pulled by
someone in the Marines or in the service, or it was bought by someone
in the in the Army or in the service because they're decked out in Yeah.
Air Force. Okay, air Force Army something like that was the person
that pulled it, and they sold it through card Hub who pulled it for
him, so it was pulling. You can find it up on a collectibles
guru. He has a nice little write up on it on his Twitter.
He always has some great stuff out on there. But yeah, right,
but yeah, I mean one hundred grand, like yeah, Like I said
before, I just thought people had learned. Yeah, like, let's let's
let's just slow down. Like I always have a rule at least when it
comes to rookies, and you feel about this record, Victor, but you
can't judge in the NFL, in the NFL or the NBA, there's no
way you can judge a rookie without three years of actual play. I agree.
That's why I don't prospect anymore. I used to prospect heavily in the
nineties, and but I tell you it's it's a losing proposition for sure for
me. I mean, some people might have a better insight and it can
do it, but it's yeah, it takes a few years. They got
to gain some get some stats under their belt, and that sort of thing.
Well, that's it. It's the high end prospecting that confuses me.
I understand. Like, look in twenty seventeen, if you wanted to prospect
Mahomes, that was brilliant. He was cheap, he was sitting, he
wasn't playing, You had not much to lose. You could buy the stuff
for five bucks. It's the same reason I prospect on people like Shay Jollis
Alexander. He was five dollars when I was buying him, and I thought
he'd be good in three years. Three years later, he's amazing. Like,
I understand prospecting on some of the lower end rookies, but when you're
prospecting on these high end guys, I mean, what are you baking into
one hundred thousand dollars? Like, where does that? How does this card
go up? I mean, but even if he wins a Super Bowl,
how much higher than a hundred grand is this card gonna go right? Because
I'll guarantee you Christian McCaffrey and the rest of that team's gonna help carry a
lot of that load. His stats might look nice. But CMC, if
they were to win a Super Bowl, Christian McCaffrey would be putting up MVP
type numbers out of the backfield. Otherwise I have no chance. So what
are you baking into one hundred grand? Right? I hear you? That
mean? Was it? Was it an impulse by or is it somebody who's
not in the hobby that's just like a fan of his. I mean,
who knows what happened there? But still I agree one hundred grand is it's
to me, it's ridiculous. I get leary with private sales too. I
didn't it could be some market manipulation in there, that sort of thing,
unless it's been verified by a you know, by somebody but like card Ladder
or somebody like that. I'm actually going up as we're as we're discussing this,
I'm actually going to check to see if card Ladders verified it yet.
If not, I am going to reach out and I'll post it on the
hobby hotline socials if we find out that would like to know if it is
verified, because I agree the private sales, especially when it's the company that
pulled it reporting it, you know what I mean, and not paid for
it or anything like that. I'd like to know where it went. Things
like that, and did it really go for a one hundred grand? How
much higher over a hundred grand? Be interesting? You know, let's see
all right, guys, So we do have about ten minutes left in the
show. Once again, if what's that? I can't believe we only got
like ten minutes left. Where did the heck did the last fifteen minutes go?
No? I know if it always flies by, it flies by every
single time. But guys, if there's something that you would like to discuss
in the on the show or anything, or have any questions, please put
them in the comments as well as click that beautiful link right there. You
can come jump on the show and audio or video format, argue with us,
yell at us, talk nice, whatever you'd like to do. But
don't get crazy. Yeah, don't. I can do this. I can
just remove your real quick so I don't get too crazy. Kevin, how
you doing? Happy belated national to you as well. Some Tim Wong asked,
what about the Drew Jones one and one for one hundred k? Then
he gets injured in first week at rookie league ball? There you go.
Yeah, but also again, I have no judgment on him whatsoever. Yet
I think the bounty that someone put on it is awesome. I think bounties
are wonderful for the hobby if they're done the right way. I think boundaries
are incredibly good for the hobby. But I mean, you got to give
the guy time. He hasn't played yet, just like I mean it,
just like the COVID guys, is a little different because they lost a year
of you know, their time and everything like that as well, makes them
a little older, not any playing time. It's a little different. But
these new guys, Drew Jones, Let's let him get healthy and let's see
what he can do. I mean, I don't think it changes anything at
the moment. And the million dollars part of that bounty was to have a
Hall of Fame career, so you know, that bounty kind of goes along
for his entire career. So I don't know, Let's maybe let him get
healthy and actually swing the bat a couple times before we judge anything, you
know. But I do agree hundred ks a lot, but that is a
bounty again, not individual wanting to purchase the card. So let me ask
you guys this one hundred thousand dollars. Yeah, couldn't you take that money
and really buy some nice vintage cards. I mean, imagine the thirty three
gaudy Babe Ruth you could buy, or even a low end fifty two Mickey
Mantle Rookie or something, and a day would brock party if you wanted too.
I'm pretty sure. Oh well, I'm sure he could. If you
Alford brought party thirty grand to hang out for the afternoon, I'm pretty sure
he's taking it. And then you got seventy to spend on whatever the hell
you want. I mean, that's what I never understand on this, Like
you can hang out with the dude for one hundred grand, you get a
lot cooler stuff than that National Treasures one oh one. You can get stuff
psal slab you need it authenticated. But yeah, you know, I agree.
Well, you know, on NASCAR radio, you know, we go
over eBay auctions and we'll see, like somebody like Hayley Degan, which I'm
sure a lot of people are familiar with her out there, you know,
one of one for five hundred dollars, and I'm thinking for five hundred dollars,
I could really buy me a couple of nice deal Earnhart Senior autos or
something like that. I just don't understand putting that kind of money into people
that are that are unproven. But no, that's just take No. I
agree, And like I said, I maan, it's just like where does
it go? Like, it's not everything's gonna be my hunt. People get
like starstruck by these Mahomes sales, these Brady sales, things like that.
I'm gonna let you guys in on a little secret. There's some people named
Philip Rivers, Matt Ryan Peyton, Manny Drew Brees, a lot of other
ones, Aaron Rodgers, a lot of quarterbacks don't sell for crap compared to
them that are absolutely amazing. So you're gonna have that one or two players
that are going to do it. But putting this type of money into them
so young, I just don't understand it. I don't. I don't get
it in these sports, I just don't. It's it's it's just exciting.
I mean, people with money got to have fun in the hobby too.
So no, I have no problem with it. I'm not buying National Treasures.
I've got a box of immaculate here and I've got a case of National
Treasures, but they're empty and they were never full with cards that were mine.
You know, I'm not buying it. So I love the sales.
I think it's awesome. And if it helps the lower end stuff, you
know self for a little bit more, I have no problem with that whatsoever.
I just when I see a sale like that, it's just it's mine.
Blook to me. Well, you know, it's generated headlines and it's
got I was talking about it, so it must be something to it.
Yeah, And Frank says, like Gary B said, ninety nine percent these
cards a going to be worth nothing in twenty years. I completely disagree with
that one thousand percent. There's always going to be value in a in a
hobby where they're collected. Now, are they going to be worth a ton
of money? Are they going to be worth what they are today? You
could easily say that ninety nine percent of them are not. But to say
they're going to have no value is just is just crazy, because there's always
going to be value in a hobby that is based on collectors. Now,
if the investor side of everything and the speculative side of everything disappears in ten
years, You're still going to have those collectives. Yeah, you're still going
to have value. It's yeah, I completely disagree with Gary b And I
actually agree with a lot of stuff he says, but I completely disagree with
him when he says something like that, Let's see Steeal City dw As we
wrap up, I blame Vegas Dave. He started it with the drought.
First. Look, we can blame Vegas Day for a lot of things,
but I mean, you can blame Vegas Dave for, like I said,
a lot of things. But yeah, the trout super was the first that
got a lot of attention. However, the hobby was on a very very
steady up swing well before that. He was just the kind of the first
one to make it mainstream, so to speak, which thankfully Vegas Day has
disappeared into a black hole, which is probably the best for everybody, but
you know, it is what it is. Let's see Matt City. Bruce
says, my collection could be worth a lot or not, but they'll have
the memories of opening packs with my son. Absolutely, That's That's what I'm
saying. Like, even if all the speculative stuff, all these one hundred
thousand dollars. Sales disappear in the highest sale we have every year's ten grand
on some PMG Jordan or something. But whatever it may be, that you're
always going to have the collectors there and the value is always going to be
there in some way, shape or form. It's just what the value,
what value means to you in the honey, right, I mean that's what
That's what it comes down to. Well, you know, as a collector,
I get asked a lot, you know, since all these headlines of
all these mega sales of cards and things are always happening, I'm always asked
how much is your collection worth? And I'm like, you know, honestly,
I mean I have some vague idea, but I really don't know.
And that's that's not the reason that I collect. I collect because I have
fun with it. I like to hang out with my like minded friends that
also do the same thing. It's just fun for me. I mean,
I know that may not be a popular thing in this day of investing and
all that, but for me, I'm old school and I'm a collector.
Yeah. Oh, I couldn't even begin to tell you what my collection is
worth. Like not because it's worth so much, but just because I don't
I don't know. I bought them because I liked them exactly. Speaking on
that guy's for to wrap up the show, we got a couple of minutes.
We talked about it before the show. We had some NSCC pickups.
I know everybody has some cards on the desk, so I want to show
off some show off some cards to end this week's show. YEP, sounds
good. Yeah, sure, that's cool. Awesome. We're gonna show up
and guys drop us in the comments. What were your favorite pickups of the
national if you went, were your best pick up lately? Oh? Very
nice? Yeah, that's a This is a cool card, and I'll tell
you the reason I bought it. It's a nineteen sixty six Dutch Paul Newman.
Paul Newman this year was inducted into the Motorsports Hall of Fame of America.
And I actually have a set on the PSA set registry for those you
know, those drivers. So I thought I saw this, I thought was
really cool. You got to go instead of King Mascart due King set Registry,
King SR. I got I got one. I bought first one of
them. You can see right here is from card Killer, the Darth Maul,
the Darth Mantle card killer. We got that one, but one of
my favorites, and this is something that I'm actually doing a lot of with
grading is for reselling. Right now, I'm focusing on team colored color match
stuff, and I absolutely love the look of these cards this year. It's
a modern card out of twenty twenty three select but the throwback selects that looked
like the old school ones. Picked up the green Jason Tatum, which is
a super short print simply because I like the color matches. They if you're
someone that likes to buy low end stuff, grade and flip, they sell
incredibly well, and that's just something that's fun to me. Also snagged a
couple of Ellis, and then being a being a fan of just weird old
school stuff, snagged the o J and then out of the National Pam and
yearsitional tacks, got the Tyler vand Dike Goal. So nice Tyler Van Dyke
Gold There what you got, Victor anything? All right? A little bit
of nineteen seventy one Thurman Munson, a little bit of vintage there, a
little bit of ultra, a little bit of what I call ultra ultra Vintage
nineteen eighty Greg Maddox. Yeah, here's and a little bit of eighty five
Tops Tiffany Roger Clemens Rookie, and a pretty cool Mickey Mantle gold refractory and
another cool another Mickey Mantle gold refractor. Oh nice? Were those from Platinum
Anniversary. These were from the two thousand and eight Tops Mantle reprints. So
yeah, that was a good set. Like yeah, So, so for
those of you who follow me on Twitter, you know that I'm always talking
about my PSA Sophomoric Slabs showcase, where I have all these funny name cards
and funny pictures on cards. I picked out this card. It's not great,
Dick, felt really funny you mentioned that logan because in my hand I've
got an eighteen eighty eight Allen and Ginter World Smokers Pole Smoker. Oh gosh,
I've got to get that one now. Speaking of which, what about
nineteen ninety three? Oh yeah, I love that card. There we go,
we're speaking of I actually just put up which Victor. I need you
to send me a picture that that's going on Iconic Images I just started on
my Instagram, just hilarious photos from guards in history. A little set I
need an image of that one. I like that one that's going on the
Iconic Cards nineteen ninety three Stadium Club, Stadium Club. Okay, writing that
one down, all right, guys, Well that is gonna wrap up this
week's episode of the show. We'll end it up on Dick Felt and Pole.
I guess that's how the show's gonna go today. But thank you guys
so much for tuning in. Of course, you can find us every single
Saturday, well, a different cast of characters every single Saturday at eleven am
Eastern and then the first Tuesday of every single month, which yeah, that'll
be coming up in a couple of weeks at nine pm Eastern also, but
of course every single Saturday here on Bench Clear Media, and of course follow
all of the awesome people that are a part of Hobby Hotline on all of
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But thank you guys so much for tuning in and Logan Victor always a
pleasure you guys. Yea, You'll have a wonderful Saturday. We'll see you
next week. Bas