WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:03.200 And it hits me, Oh my gosh, this is a triangle. You 2 00:00:03.240 --> 00:00:06.960 know, there's explanation for everything that occurred in the randallsham Pars incident. It 3 00:00:06.960 --> 00:00:11.960 doesn't involve aliens at all. It was completely silent. It comes right over 4 00:00:12.039 --> 00:00:17.719 our heads. Classic. He's also really standing into clearing. He turned over 5 00:00:17.800 --> 00:00:20.160 to my father and held his hand, and he looked in his eyes and 6 00:00:20.239 --> 00:00:28.160 said, we're not alone. Welcome to podcast UFO for our live show. 7 00:00:28.839 --> 00:00:32.679 During the show, feel free to participate live in our chat room, and 8 00:00:32.799 --> 00:00:38.479 don't forget to like us on our very active Facebook page. Hello and welcome 9 00:00:38.479 --> 00:00:41.679 to the show. This is Martin Willisher, host and we have a great 10 00:00:41.679 --> 00:00:45.159 one for you this evening. A lot of people are excited about my guest. 11 00:00:45.200 --> 00:00:50.920 I've gotten a lot of email. It's Diana Pasolka and she's a professor 12 00:00:50.960 --> 00:00:55.359 of religious studies. I'll go into more of that as the time draw nears 13 00:00:55.359 --> 00:00:58.799 when she's coming aboard. But right now and just a minute, we have 14 00:00:58.799 --> 00:01:03.120 Alejandro Rojas joining us for UFO updates. And I do want to tell you 15 00:01:03.159 --> 00:01:07.719 next week we're going to have a new phone number and that's through the KGr 16 00:01:07.799 --> 00:01:15.239 A Radio. It's their Paranormal Radio app hotline, and so make sure you 17 00:01:15.319 --> 00:01:22.439 add this number to your mobile phones. It's actually eighty five kg R a 18 00:01:23.040 --> 00:01:29.879 DASH live or the real number is eight five five four seven two five four 19 00:01:30.040 --> 00:01:32.519 eight three. And these going to be screen calls. It's all going to 20 00:01:32.599 --> 00:01:38.879 start next week and we will que of course, when the calls are welcome, 21 00:01:38.959 --> 00:01:42.719 which is generally I usually take calls in the second hour of the show. 22 00:01:42.200 --> 00:01:45.959 I want to thank everyone that supports the show. Anyone can do that. 23 00:01:46.840 --> 00:01:49.439 All you have to do is go over to podcast UFO dot com and 24 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:55.879 the informations over there. And speaking of information, our blog this week is 25 00:01:56.359 --> 00:02:02.040 UFOs and the Science that of the scientists that love them. And so that's 26 00:02:02.040 --> 00:02:07.439 a blog by Charles Lear. Another great blog. We have weekly blogs at 27 00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:13.280 this point by Charles does a nice job and so I think that is going 28 00:02:13.360 --> 00:02:16.680 to get us started. Alejandro, how are you doing today? Hello? 29 00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:22.400 I am doing good. Busy, busy. Yeah. The world UFO Day. 30 00:02:22.520 --> 00:02:25.680 Yeah is a UFO Day. I didn't know that it is, yeah, 31 00:02:25.719 --> 00:02:31.000 And I guess it commemorates the Kenneth Mark Arnold sighting. And I even 32 00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:38.960 had the local NBC network was in interviewing myself and Karen about World UFO Day. 33 00:02:38.960 --> 00:02:40.759 So that's going to er in like an hour. Now, how come 34 00:02:40.879 --> 00:02:46.560 I do a UFO show and I had no clue that is that's just embarrassing. 35 00:02:46.599 --> 00:02:50.240 I can't believe that is embarrassing. Yeah, wow, you should be 36 00:02:51.919 --> 00:02:59.199 reprimanded by the UFO Ufologists Council. Yeah I know. Wow, Yeah, 37 00:02:59.240 --> 00:03:05.240 I think I just some ground away. Yeah awesome, well fun, and 38 00:03:05.360 --> 00:03:08.000 so what else is happening? I know? And my social media even has 39 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:13.199 some goofy pictures around UFO Day, But yeah, a lot is going on. 40 00:03:13.319 --> 00:03:15.719 So our good buddy MJ. Benaias and this is really cool. He's 41 00:03:15.719 --> 00:03:23.000 been getting articles in Vice about UFOs and and yeah, that's so cool that 42 00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:28.879 he's been able to do that. And his latest is called Meet Silicon Valley's 43 00:03:29.039 --> 00:03:34.319 UFO Hunters. In fact, I think he even references your guest tonight in 44 00:03:34.879 --> 00:03:39.840 that story. I Ansluka because in her book she was working with a Silicon 45 00:03:39.919 --> 00:03:44.520 Valley kind of startup or not even startup. I think he's a venture capitalist. 46 00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:47.039 She could, I'm sure she'll clear it all up. But about UFOs, 47 00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:51.199 and so he's kind of talking about how there are these startups and there 48 00:03:51.199 --> 00:03:55.000 are others that are into the topic, which is pretty interesting that you know, 49 00:03:55.080 --> 00:04:00.439 people in Silicon Valley would have that interest. So it's a great article 50 00:04:00.840 --> 00:04:06.240 and it ties into some other articles. In fact, there was another article 51 00:04:06.280 --> 00:04:11.479 by Tyler Rogaway, who we've also interviewed from the war zone. He was 52 00:04:11.560 --> 00:04:15.560 examining these Navy patents and you may ask, well, what does that have 53 00:04:15.600 --> 00:04:20.920 to do with UFOs and everything. Well, there advanced theoretical physics these patents, 54 00:04:21.399 --> 00:04:27.319 and what's interesting about them is help put Off, who is one of 55 00:04:27.399 --> 00:04:33.000 the guys who works with a TIP with the lou El Hosando's Pentagon project. 56 00:04:33.279 --> 00:04:38.879 In fact, they were helped. Put Off has worked with Robert Bigelow for 57 00:04:38.920 --> 00:04:43.560 many years and so they were contracted to work and as some of these papers 58 00:04:43.560 --> 00:04:47.560 are theoretical physics papers are in the eight TIP documents that we've seen, so 59 00:04:47.639 --> 00:04:50.920 that's where his root is. In fact, it's very interesting how put Off 60 00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:56.360 it's been working on paranormal topics with the government for decades. In fact, 61 00:04:56.360 --> 00:05:00.399 he was instrumental in the Remote Viewing Project where it was kind of a psychic 62 00:05:00.519 --> 00:05:05.000 project that the government had started up. He was working with Stanford and the 63 00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:11.240 CIA at the beginning to develop this kind of psychic ability called remote viewing, 64 00:05:11.480 --> 00:05:15.560 and that program went on for decades, many suspected still goes on. So 65 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:19.560 how put Up has been around for a long time, and he's referenced in 66 00:05:19.600 --> 00:05:24.759 these documents, and that's kind of the tie in with a tip here. 67 00:05:25.560 --> 00:05:30.399 But what's interesting about these documents is that many field it's kind of pseudoscience. 68 00:05:30.439 --> 00:05:33.600 It is so theoretical, it's not provable. It's beyond the you know, 69 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:41.360 our capabilities completely, And so what he's kind of saying here is that although 70 00:05:41.879 --> 00:05:45.000 at the patent office said, no, you know, these are just two 71 00:05:45.000 --> 00:05:48.680 out there. They're not even you can't even demonstrate these technologies. But the 72 00:05:49.160 --> 00:05:56.079 government came back because these were submitted by a government and navy physicists, and 73 00:05:56.120 --> 00:05:59.160 they said, well, actually we're working on testing some of this stuff. 74 00:05:59.160 --> 00:06:01.399 It is legit, and we believe the Chinese are working on it. So 75 00:06:01.439 --> 00:06:05.879 they approved the patents to be reviewed and they're in the review process now and 76 00:06:05.959 --> 00:06:11.319 so they were also made public. So it's just kind of a weird story, 77 00:06:11.439 --> 00:06:15.839 especially because it's kind of not really stuff that can be worked on. 78 00:06:15.079 --> 00:06:19.759 Well, another guy who's on social media quite a bit lately, Deep Passat 79 00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:25.720 he actually wrote a medium article on this and kind of boiled it down some 80 00:06:25.839 --> 00:06:28.600 more, which is helpful, and he kind of said the same thing, 81 00:06:28.759 --> 00:06:31.319 it's ridiculous that a patent office is even looking at these things because they're really 82 00:06:31.800 --> 00:06:35.079 far out there. But he gave a little more context to it. So 83 00:06:35.120 --> 00:06:40.240 some of you may have heard Mitchio Kaku talk about UFOs and ets and he 84 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:45.439 often references I think it's called Cartache. It's a K scale they call it, 85 00:06:45.680 --> 00:06:50.959 where they called civilizations by the amount of energy they can manipulate. Essentially, 86 00:06:51.199 --> 00:06:56.199 a type point can manipulate or harness the energy of a son. We're 87 00:06:56.240 --> 00:07:00.040 not even close to a type one. We're below that. But Deep mentions 88 00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:05.120 in this article that it would take a type too civilization or more to be 89 00:07:05.160 --> 00:07:10.759 able to harness the technology that is theorized in these papers, and some of 90 00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:14.000 the papers, at least one of them even has the science a little messed 91 00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:17.319 up. So he's wondering, you know, why are we even looking at 92 00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:24.360 this set right now? His thing is kind of like he suspects the reason 93 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:28.839 why the Navy is putting out these patents, and this ties into help put 94 00:07:28.839 --> 00:07:31.920 off an eight hip, it's because they think this is a sort of technology 95 00:07:31.959 --> 00:07:38.399 that they're observing with these UFOs, like an animics incident, or for those 96 00:07:38.439 --> 00:07:42.120 of you who have been watching Unidentified, you know, last week they reviewed 97 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:46.639 the Roosevelt case where these other jet fighters encountered these objects that were like cubes 98 00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:54.639 inside of translucent orbs. And so he's saying that the media and science really 99 00:07:54.680 --> 00:08:00.560 needs to take take note and take serious attention, because if the Navy is 100 00:08:00.600 --> 00:08:05.920 serious that they believe, you know, there are these advanced technologies beyond our 101 00:08:05.959 --> 00:08:11.160 abilities that are being observed, that this demonstrates that this is a big deal 102 00:08:11.199 --> 00:08:15.480 to the Navy and to the government, and so it should be a big 103 00:08:15.519 --> 00:08:20.759 deal to the general public and to the scientific community. He's essentially saying that, 104 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:26.160 you know, it demonstrates that the technology exists and as being observed, 105 00:08:26.480 --> 00:08:31.559 so scientists in particular should be interested in understanding the science behind them and trying 106 00:08:31.559 --> 00:08:35.960 to figure out what they are and who they are, and so some really 107 00:08:35.960 --> 00:08:39.600 interesting stuff. He kind of talks about his motivation for being all of this 108 00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:45.639 is kind of similar to mine. It's similar to something Commander David Fraber said. 109 00:08:45.720 --> 00:08:48.080 He's a guy who chased you know that UFO and the Nimits event. 110 00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:52.200 He said, I don't know whose they are, but I would like to 111 00:08:52.279 --> 00:08:56.200 fly one because demonstrate this amazing technology. And it's kind of the same thing. 112 00:08:56.279 --> 00:08:58.840 I got involved with this and one of the things that really gets me 113 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:03.080 I started off in school and wanting to be a rocket scientist is the idea 114 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:07.799 of being able to fly around and to check out the universe and go explore 115 00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:11.639 like Star Trek or something. So, you know, it's exciting to him, 116 00:09:11.720 --> 00:09:16.600 and he feels it should be exciting to others that these devices or these 117 00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:22.639 aircraft seem to exist and somebody's flying them around. It's almost like they're trying 118 00:09:22.639 --> 00:09:28.080 to reverse engineer from observation exactly. That's exactly what they're doing, and that's 119 00:09:28.080 --> 00:09:31.559 what Bigelow has talked about doing in the past. You know, the move 120 00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:35.879 On symposiums coming up and one of the speakers it's going to be John Schuchler, 121 00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:39.799 who's a mentor of mine. He worked at NASA. That's exactly what 122 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:45.360 inspired him. Same with Bob Wood, who was an engineer aerospace engineer who's 123 00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:48.600 also a board member with move On. So a lot of scientists had been 124 00:09:48.639 --> 00:09:52.320 inspired and you know, kind of thinking, well, maybe if all we 125 00:09:52.360 --> 00:09:58.480 can do is see these things and observe them, maybe there is some technology 126 00:09:58.519 --> 00:10:03.039 that can be gleaned from the observations. And many scientists think that's ridiculous. 127 00:10:03.039 --> 00:10:07.960 There's no way you can glean any science from just observations. Others disagree, 128 00:10:07.320 --> 00:10:11.679 such as how put Off or others who believe that they are being able to 129 00:10:11.679 --> 00:10:16.360 observe some of this technology in use and to the stars. In fact, 130 00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:22.000 it's very serious about the potential of being able to develop some of these technologies 131 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:26.639 that are being observed. Yeah, it's almost like anything really amazing, you 132 00:10:26.679 --> 00:10:30.399 know, starts with an idea and then you know, they figure out how 133 00:10:30.399 --> 00:10:33.759 how to do whatever it is. It's just just along those lines, and 134 00:10:33.799 --> 00:10:37.600 that's the science is. Yeah. Yeah, and it's observing a phenomena and 135 00:10:37.639 --> 00:10:41.440 then trying to understand how that phenomena works, Yeah, and duplicate it. 136 00:10:43.480 --> 00:10:48.840 Yeah, very interesting. Anything else happening, Let's see, there's tons there 137 00:10:48.879 --> 00:10:52.360 are tons of headlines. It's an exciting time because the media is taking UFOs 138 00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:58.000 so seriously. There are just a ton of headlines out there. So there 139 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:03.360 are interviews, a new interview with Chris smellon is out there. Yep, 140 00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:09.720 there's This is a really interesting survey that was done by Rasmussen. I believe 141 00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:13.440 it's the name of the company, and there's not a lot of outlets that 142 00:11:13.480 --> 00:11:16.919 have picked it up, but essentially they're a survey company and they did a 143 00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:22.600 survey about people people's beliefs regarding UFOs, Is it likely there's life on other 144 00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:26.919 planets and that sort of thing. Most people said, we're kind of hesitant. 145 00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:28.919 Now, one of the sites that broke this down is kind of a 146 00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:31.960 political group, so they kind of broke down. They found there wasn't much 147 00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:37.960 of a difference between political parties, but that men were more likely than women 148 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:41.600 to say it was very likely that there's intelligent life on other planets, to 149 00:11:41.679 --> 00:11:46.759 the tune of men at thirty nine percent and women at twenty four percent. 150 00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:52.320 So I found that kind of interesting. But as far as posing a threat 151 00:11:52.360 --> 00:11:58.080 to national security, sixty one percent said no, twelve percent said yes, 152 00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:05.279 and twenty seven unsure. I think that's important because the nature of what we're 153 00:12:05.320 --> 00:12:09.759 hearing with these government programs is that you know they're seen as a threat, 154 00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:15.759 but it seems like the general public has not fought onto that idea. However, 155 00:12:16.039 --> 00:12:20.360 it's not necessarily that you know a tip or Lui Lesando is saying that 156 00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:24.159 these are definitively a threat by the very nature of them being in our airspace 157 00:12:24.200 --> 00:12:28.559 without us knowing who they are. That's what makes them a threat, not 158 00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:33.399 necessarily their motivations, so we have to learn to be able to confirm whether 159 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:37.080 or not they are. However, government such as Chili who had Sepah, 160 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:43.360 which is a government ran Ufo research organization, they've actually had meetings with high 161 00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:48.279 level officials to determine whether or not this is this phenomena as a threat, 162 00:12:48.440 --> 00:12:52.559 and they've determined no, because they've seen so many encounters, including some similar 163 00:12:52.600 --> 00:12:56.879 to the nimitzing counter where jets are scrambled, there's kind of a cat and 164 00:12:56.960 --> 00:13:01.399 mouse and then the unknown objects flies off, that they haven't shown any overt 165 00:13:01.600 --> 00:13:09.279 sort of aggressive behavior, and so they do not feel that they are necessarily 166 00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:13.559 a threat. And I would say that just our own government hasn't necessarily gotten 167 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:18.720 there at least as far as we know, in assessing the motivations or the 168 00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:24.120 potential for a threat. But because they can label it a threat, that 169 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:30.080 allows them to have these government programs and to get government funding. So it's 170 00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:33.519 sort of a semantics thing as well. But it is sort of interesting that 171 00:13:33.639 --> 00:13:39.120 right now, although this topic is becoming more popular, that the public by 172 00:13:39.159 --> 00:13:45.240 far does not consider the phenomena threat. And that's probably a good thing, 173 00:13:45.679 --> 00:13:48.399 because I think the public would feel much more uncomfortable with the whole idea if 174 00:13:48.399 --> 00:13:52.320 they did perceive it as a threat. That is so true. Yeah, 175 00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:56.840 it makes total sense. Yeah. Yeah, so that's a really interesting survey 176 00:13:56.879 --> 00:14:00.360 out there. Yeah. Yeah, I wonder that's really something about the difference 177 00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:05.039 between men and women and their beliefs. It's probably because women know that, 178 00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:09.039 you know, us men aren't that intelligent, and they don't have much help, 179 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:13.919 much hope for finding more out there or more intelligence. She's true, 180 00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:18.000 it would be very well, could could be, Alejandro, Thanks so much. 181 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:20.799 Yeah, no problem, we'll have to get You'll have to ask that 182 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:24.639 Dane what her perception is of all of that. But yeah, thank you 183 00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:28.679 very much. Of course you can see all of this at open minds dot 184 00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:31.759 tv right there on the front page. That's right, all right, I'll 185 00:14:31.799 --> 00:14:33.000 talk to you next week. You take care of thank you, all right, 186 00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:37.960 all right, all right, our guest of this evening. I'm very 187 00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:45.039 glad to welcome Diana Polslka and she is a professor of Religious Studies at the 188 00:14:45.159 --> 00:14:50.279 University of North Carolina Wilmington and a chair of the Department of Philosophy and Religion, 189 00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:56.000 and her research focuses on religion and technology. I think that's fascinating, 190 00:14:56.039 --> 00:15:01.080 including the supernatural, supernatural belief and it's con actions to the digital technologies and 191 00:15:01.320 --> 00:15:07.720 environment. Very exciting. So welcome to the show, Diana. Thanks. 192 00:15:07.720 --> 00:15:09.080 Can I go ahead and oh, yes, flick myself in? Yes, 193 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:13.120 do that please? Yes? Hey? Great, all right, yeah, 194 00:15:13.159 --> 00:15:18.000 thank thanks so much for joining us. Absolutely my pleasure. Yeah, it's 195 00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:22.159 a real pleasure. So can you tell the listening audience a little bit about 196 00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:26.000 yourself and how with your background, how you got into this whole um, 197 00:15:26.559 --> 00:15:31.799 this whole thing you've been studying. Yeah, sure, so I've I grew 198 00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:37.440 up in California, and I went to undergraduate and graduate during the dot com 199 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:43.200 boom in you know, the early nineties and late nineties pretty much. You 200 00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:46.559 know, you spend a lot of time when you get a PhD in school, 201 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:50.519 and what I did was a lot of people have misconceptions about religion, 202 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:54.720 and so first off, I want to tell the audience that in the field 203 00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:58.360 of religious studies, what we do is we don't actually I'm not a minister, 204 00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:03.240 We don't promote religion. We actually study it. So we study effects 205 00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:07.360 of religion. In fact, someone like Jacques Valet when he spoke to the 206 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:11.360 un in the nineteen seventies, he basically said, it doesn't matter, you 207 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:15.600 know, whether or not UFOs or the phenomenon actually exists. Belief in it 208 00:16:15.639 --> 00:16:19.919 exists and it is at an all time high. So the you know, 209 00:16:21.039 --> 00:16:23.960 the reality, the objective reality, is beside the point. So in religious 210 00:16:23.960 --> 00:16:27.159 studies that that's kind of our track. That's that's what we do. We 211 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:32.919 study how people believe, practices, how it affects society, how it emerges 212 00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:40.360 from different types of environments society. And so what I did was I'm a 213 00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:45.879 Catholic historian basically by training, and I looked at various kinds of things. 214 00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:48.279 I was always interested in technology, of course, because I was within the 215 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:52.840 environment of Silicon Valley. I mean I went to school, you know, 216 00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:57.759 at that two University of California or research universities right in the heart of Silicon 217 00:16:57.879 --> 00:17:03.519 Valley. And then I did get my PhD at Syracuse University, and so 218 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:07.400 here I am in the South. And so how did I get into studying 219 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:12.240 UFOs. I was actually never I've actually never seen close encounters of the third 220 00:17:12.279 --> 00:17:18.359 kind. I wasn't really interested in UFOs. And what happened was that I 221 00:17:18.440 --> 00:17:23.160 was on a normal track of being a professor and looking at the historical tradition 222 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:29.880 of Christianity and Catholicism. And I did a book on the doctrine of purgatory, 223 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:33.160 which, for your listeners, if they don't know, is this doctrine 224 00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:37.920 of where souls go after they die. Catholics believe in this kind of intermediate 225 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:41.960 place where if you're not good enough to get into heaven, you stay in 226 00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:47.359 this place and you know, get better, your soul gets better and then 227 00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:52.359 gets into heaven. And I found out that you know this is it took 228 00:17:52.359 --> 00:17:56.000 me ten years to write this book. So yeah, sometimes you have to 229 00:17:56.079 --> 00:18:00.559 do a lot of work to do that kind of thing. So I found, 230 00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:03.960 you know, your research in the best of world should surprise you should 231 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:07.359 be surprised by your research, and I sure was. So I found that 232 00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:12.319 purgatory started out as a place as places and there's still a purgatory cave in 233 00:18:12.359 --> 00:18:18.519 Ireland on this lake called Lock Dirg, and people would go there in the 234 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:23.640 twelve hundred and thirteen hundreds, and purgatory then eventually became a dogma of the 235 00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:26.839 Catholic Church and people would go there and they would do Yeah. So, 236 00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:33.039 you know, so you can see then how religions really emerge from environment. 237 00:18:33.160 --> 00:18:37.599 So I wanted to really show how there was this new type of religiosity that 238 00:18:37.640 --> 00:18:41.400 had emerged from our techno environment or a new digital infrastructure, which we are 239 00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:47.279 now in and we have no clue really you know how it's going to play 240 00:18:47.319 --> 00:18:51.559 out for us. But I could tell that the belief systems of the people 241 00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:56.519 around me were focused on non human intelligences and UFOs and things like that, 242 00:18:56.599 --> 00:19:02.599 you know in Silicon Valley. And I also in my research on purgatory, 243 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:06.240 I came across a lot of aerial phenomena, and I started to read the 244 00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:11.599 work of Jacques Valet Passport to Magonia read very much like my own purgatory book 245 00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:17.400 in the sense that he was focusing on historical incidences of aerial phenomena, and 246 00:19:17.720 --> 00:19:19.279 I honestly didn't know what I was looking at at the time. So I 247 00:19:19.319 --> 00:19:23.480 just made a log and a list of this phenomena, and I showed it 248 00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:26.559 to a friend of mine and the friend looked at it and said, well, 249 00:19:26.759 --> 00:19:30.440 this looks like UFO. This looks like a Spielberg film. And I 250 00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:33.960 thought it was crazy at the time, you know, and I said, 251 00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:37.279 oh, you know, I kind of said no, no. But there 252 00:19:37.319 --> 00:19:44.359 happened to be synchronistically a UFO conference in the town where I live, and 253 00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:48.519 I attended it and I heard Chris Bledsoe. He made yeah, so he 254 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:53.119 lives near me, actually, and so I realized that this phenomena, the 255 00:19:53.160 --> 00:19:57.359 aerial phenomena, was still around. And then I did all the preliminary research 256 00:19:57.440 --> 00:20:03.559 on it and thought that I would go into this very easy study of a 257 00:20:03.599 --> 00:20:10.920 comparison between ancient aerial phenomena and contemporary aerial phenomena. And I had no clue. 258 00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:15.960 I was totally naive, and I got into something that in a sense 259 00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:21.759 became something away over my head. At many points I decided I was going 260 00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:25.599 to stop doing the research because it was just too weird for me. I 261 00:20:25.720 --> 00:20:30.359 came across the scientists right yet that you and Alejandre were talking about, and 262 00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:33.880 I decided that if I were going to do book on this, that the 263 00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:38.400 new study would be to study them, and so I decided to immerse myself 264 00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:45.279 within their communities and I Jacques Vallet became a friend, introduced me to many 265 00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:51.160 of them. I meant many myself. I found out that there was a 266 00:20:51.240 --> 00:20:56.440 long standing study that had been going on in the area in which I had 267 00:20:56.440 --> 00:21:03.079 lived from as a child of people who had had experiences. And I have 268 00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:08.559 a brother who's special Forces, and I was another brother who is now a 269 00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:14.200 captain of the police force. And I won't say where, but in California. 270 00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:18.720 He doesn't wanted to he doesn't want me to out him. But so, 271 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:22.119 you know, I mean, so there were there were lots of phenomena, 272 00:21:22.359 --> 00:21:25.400 let's just put it that way, within the place where I had grown 273 00:21:25.480 --> 00:21:30.319 up and I and I hadn't actually thought about it as as you have fau 274 00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:34.119 phenomena until two thousand and eleven. In two thousand and twelve, and that's 275 00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:40.400 really how I started my book. And I m instead of studying the experiencers, 276 00:21:40.440 --> 00:21:42.839 the people who actually do the you know, I studied the people who 277 00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:48.440 were the scientific experiencers, and I called them the meta experiencers. And in 278 00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:52.759 many ways. They were what Jacques Vallet had termed in Heineck had termed the 279 00:21:52.759 --> 00:21:59.599 invisible college. But they're not the invisible college anymore. They're more like fight 280 00:21:59.680 --> 00:22:03.440 club, right, They're more like we don't talk about this so um. 281 00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:10.599 So I was lucky to be involved in this group for many years, and 282 00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:15.200 the book emerged directly from the being what's called ethnography, right, kind of 283 00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:18.680 immersing yourself within these communities. And I just took a lot of notes, 284 00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:23.039 um and did what I did. I just kind of documented what I thought 285 00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:26.880 was a new type of religiosity is what we call it in my field. 286 00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:30.880 Uh huh, wow, this is really fascinating. We got to go into 287 00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:36.680 a break and just just two minutes or so. But there's there's also a 288 00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:41.920 lot of parallels on in the belief systems too, isn't there between you know 289 00:22:42.519 --> 00:22:47.440 a lot of a lot of things created in religions. I'm just guessing because 290 00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:51.519 I don't have you know, the education that you have by any means, 291 00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:55.039 but I mean it seems like when there's a lot of unexplained things, like 292 00:22:55.680 --> 00:23:02.279 a religion would explain it in their magical or or you know, the work 293 00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:08.359 of God or whatever it is. Um, so is there is there parallels 294 00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:17.960 along the lines of the UFOs and creating religious religions being oh initiated? Yes, 295 00:23:18.359 --> 00:23:21.799 absolutely, yes, this is basically the creation. I mean, what 296 00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:26.079 we're looking at is the documentation of a new form of religion that's emerging from 297 00:23:26.200 --> 00:23:30.119 the technology within which we live. We can't we can't get off the grid, 298 00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:33.960 so we're inundated with you know, frequencies, radiation, you know, 299 00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:38.480 all kinds of things that come directly from the black mirror, the screen of 300 00:23:38.519 --> 00:23:45.519 our phones and computers and um, you know, technologies. So I'm being 301 00:23:45.559 --> 00:23:48.200 aware that you need to go to break. But that's a question that I 302 00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:52.480 could ask that I could answer more fully if you'd like, Yeah, sure, 303 00:23:52.759 --> 00:23:56.160 yeah, okay, So why don't we hop into the break now? 304 00:23:56.559 --> 00:24:00.200 All right, so hang in, everyone will be right back right now after 305 00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:03.240 this break. You said that you grew up in California, so I thought 306 00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:08.319 we we would talk a little bit off topic during this break in southern California, 307 00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:11.559 you grew up and no, I'm sorry, no, I no, 308 00:24:11.640 --> 00:24:15.720 I grew up in Dineral Folsome lake is fulsome lakes. Yeah, it's in 309 00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:19.400 northern California, and it's right below Tahoe. Oh really, because I lived 310 00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:22.599 in South Lake Tahoe, I should know where it is, but I don't. 311 00:24:22.880 --> 00:24:26.920 Yes, And so there are a lot of things going on there. 312 00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:33.839 Yeah, there's a there's a study that's ongoing since I think this seventies or 313 00:24:33.880 --> 00:24:41.759 eighties of people who have had experiences there. Yes. Wow, And what 314 00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:45.519 type are we talking about? You know, just UFO sightings are more than 315 00:24:45.559 --> 00:24:49.200 that? No, unfortunately, we're talking about more than that. And we're 316 00:24:49.240 --> 00:24:57.200 talking about people who have had direct C three I guess type episodes and sometimes 317 00:24:57.799 --> 00:25:04.279 being injured and sometimes surviving their injuries. Yeah, uh huh. And these 318 00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:08.119 are these a lot of times. I'm sure since you've looked at, you 319 00:25:08.119 --> 00:25:11.880 know, this topic quite a bit, you know that a lot of people 320 00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:17.160 have repeat experiences, Yes, things going on had Yeah, they've had repeat 321 00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:21.559 experiences. Yeah. So it seems like that's a that's a very hot region 322 00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:27.680 that people don't know about and maybe for for purposefully intentionally they don't know about 323 00:25:27.720 --> 00:25:33.039 it. Yeah. So is this actually part of the Sierra? Yes it 324 00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:36.680 is. Yeah, that's so beautiful there. I love it. I miss 325 00:25:36.759 --> 00:25:41.160 it, Yeah, but you do. But it's funny. I've never really 326 00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:45.759 um, you know, I I I actually was, I had moved out 327 00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:51.640 of Lake Tahoe when um, when I had my UFO experience, and uh 328 00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:56.000 so I didn't really pay attention to the topic when I was there, you 329 00:25:56.039 --> 00:25:57.799 know, if things were actually happening in that region. But I know, 330 00:25:57.920 --> 00:26:02.519 you know, of course, California is uh you know, one of the 331 00:26:03.079 --> 00:26:06.599 is the top UFO sightings in the country, of course, and a lot 332 00:26:06.599 --> 00:26:11.920 of it has to do with population and the good weather as well. Yeah, 333 00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:15.799 that's true. You can see a lot right right, yeah, yeah, 334 00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:18.119 all right, we got one minute left to this break. And so 335 00:26:19.079 --> 00:26:26.599 as far as the area there, there are also other also like sightings that 336 00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:32.279 you know of like that people actually see the craft or lights or yes, 337 00:26:32.519 --> 00:26:37.039 yes, they see um kind of like the plasma craft. Oh it's like 338 00:26:37.079 --> 00:26:41.160 the orbs or whatever. Yeah, but much larger than they generally are. 339 00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:45.960 You know, they look like crafts, but they look like plasma crafts kind 340 00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:49.920 of orange colored. Yeah. Yeah. There was someone doing research through moof 341 00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:53.559 on that and he was just focusing on the orange you know, he called 342 00:26:53.599 --> 00:26:57.200 them orange orbs. But you know, but that was his total focus. 343 00:26:57.640 --> 00:27:03.319 He was on the show at one time. So yeah, um and anything 344 00:27:03.319 --> 00:27:07.079 else or is it basically they're seeing more or less the same type of thing 345 00:27:07.160 --> 00:27:10.200 there. No, I could tell you more, but I doubt I can't. 346 00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:15.720 I can't actually says, you can't what I can't actually say? Yeah? 347 00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:19.640 There is? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, wow. Well, um, 348 00:27:21.319 --> 00:27:23.799 I do know that. I was trying to think of where it was. 349 00:27:23.960 --> 00:27:29.920 Where I think it was the Marin County. Is there's someone I've been 350 00:27:29.960 --> 00:27:33.559 in touch with out there, that's the area that I lived in when I 351 00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:36.319 was for the most part of the nine years that I lived out there. 352 00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:38.599 But I'm in touch with someone now that they're they're saying there's still a lot 353 00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:41.839 of activity going all the way up to you know, all the way north 354 00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:48.000 to the Oregon. Yes, yes, yeah, so really something else? 355 00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:53.519 All right, welcome back. My guest tonight is Diana Possalka and dressed. 356 00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:57.759 Before we went ato break, we were talking about meta experiencers and you were 357 00:27:57.759 --> 00:28:03.599 talking about Shock Valet and very interesting you actually got to know him. Um, 358 00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:07.960 he is. I'm sure you know he's an iconic person when it comes 359 00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:15.680 to this topic in general. Absolutely, Yes, he's iconic in general. 360 00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:18.960 Yeah, that's right, he is. He is in many ways. Yes, 361 00:28:18.039 --> 00:28:22.519 yeah, and my friend Lee Spiegel's show is going live. I believe 362 00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:27.480 it's I want to say it's August first or August fourth. Let me just 363 00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:30.640 take a look at the calendar. And that's going to be his first guest 364 00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:37.359 on the show. Wow, yeah, he's and I believe it is August 365 00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:40.960 first. He's going to be coming up Lee Spiegel. So everyone should pay 366 00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:44.680 attention to that night. Should be a really great show. Yeah. I 367 00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:48.359 did get to meet and boy is he tall. Yes, he's tall. 368 00:28:48.599 --> 00:28:52.759 Yeah, and very nice. And it had a nice, really nice conversation 369 00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:59.119 with him. And yeah, I like the fact that, you know, 370 00:28:59.240 --> 00:29:03.640 his attitude after all these years is you know, basically we still have no 371 00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:07.400 idea or it could be many things. Yeah, I tend to think that 372 00:29:07.480 --> 00:29:12.279 it is many things. Frankly. Yeah, and how do you know, 373 00:29:12.319 --> 00:29:18.680 how do you approach that? Okay, so, I mean if you think 374 00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:21.480 about it, well, first let's get back to your question about how is 375 00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:23.400 this kind of like a religion? Oh yes, right, if that's all 376 00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:27.640 right? Yeah, so yeah, okay, So in my so, basically 377 00:29:29.000 --> 00:29:32.839 we tend to think here in the United States of religions as the kinds of 378 00:29:33.160 --> 00:29:36.559 you know, if it doesn't look like the kinds of religions of which we 379 00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:40.799 are familiar, which are the Western types of religions, you know, Christianity 380 00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:44.559 or Judaism. They don't have a God, and you know, we tend 381 00:29:44.599 --> 00:29:48.640 to think, well, I don't see the correlation between UFO belief and UFOs 382 00:29:48.680 --> 00:29:52.440 and religion, and I always like to respond to that, like I do 383 00:29:52.759 --> 00:29:56.680 with my students. You know, if you knew there are thousands of religions 384 00:29:56.119 --> 00:30:00.279 and there are many of them, they don't even look like each other. 385 00:30:00.279 --> 00:30:03.039 If you took Christian religions, they don't look like each other. Okay, 386 00:30:03.160 --> 00:30:06.200 lots of like Catholicism. When I first got to the South, a lot 387 00:30:06.279 --> 00:30:08.519 of my students didn't know that Catholics were Christians, and I had to kind 388 00:30:08.519 --> 00:30:11.440 of do a timeline and show, you know, well, actually, you 389 00:30:11.480 --> 00:30:18.279 know, so look at Buddhism. Zen Buddhism, it's basically there's no God, 390 00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:21.599 and they want you to get rid of any concept or dot or even 391 00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:25.599 religious dogma. So you know, so religions don't look like each other. 392 00:30:25.640 --> 00:30:27.119 But what do they have in common? Well, a lot of things that 393 00:30:27.160 --> 00:30:32.440 they have in common is they try to answer the big questions about our places 394 00:30:32.440 --> 00:30:34.759 in the universe or places in the cosmos, and a lot of times that 395 00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:41.519 you have in religions are beings from the sky coming down and meeting with humans, 396 00:30:41.559 --> 00:30:47.279 like non human intelligence coming down from the sky, sometimes in a vehicle, 397 00:30:47.400 --> 00:30:52.160 sometimes not with wings, sometimes sometimes with no wings, and they somehow 398 00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:59.960 impart to us wisdom, technology, ways of being, and things like that. 399 00:31:00.400 --> 00:31:04.160 So, if you take religion in that most very basic form, that's 400 00:31:04.200 --> 00:31:07.160 what we're seeing here. It's also mythology. You know, the myth of 401 00:31:07.160 --> 00:31:12.319 Prometheus, right, So Prometheus is this immortal he's not a god, he's 402 00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:18.400 like a god person. He's a titan, and he gives humans technology and 403 00:31:18.440 --> 00:31:22.920 then gets horribly punished for it. Right, So what we're seeing here is 404 00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:27.240 we're seeing kind of like this mythology that is now in my end. What 405 00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:32.839 surprised me most about what I was doing was that I was actually meeting people 406 00:31:32.839 --> 00:31:36.960 who were actually creating this technology, so it wasn't really a myth anymore. 407 00:31:37.240 --> 00:31:40.359 And I thought, well, this is the weirdest thing I've ever studied in 408 00:31:40.400 --> 00:31:42.880 my life, because you know, if you look at what I've published, 409 00:31:44.200 --> 00:31:48.400 it's all you can look at it and say, surely that's just you know 410 00:31:48.440 --> 00:31:51.960 what they thought at the time, but you can't say that now because we're 411 00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:56.799 actually living within the technologies that these people are creating. Now. Whether or 412 00:31:56.839 --> 00:32:01.400 not their belief system is accurate that this is non human intelligence in fact, 413 00:32:01.559 --> 00:32:07.920 is beside the point. The point is is that this type of religiosity is 414 00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:12.119 effect is effecting, you know, is it's effectual. It's creating the types 415 00:32:12.160 --> 00:32:15.559 of environment with which we live. So there's list give and take of this 416 00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:21.880 religion. Not to mention that there are also sightings that we can't identify, 417 00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:24.839 and there are also people like the chief of NASA. I think it's Ellis 418 00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:29.799 so Fond, but I'm not quite sure she's still she was a couple of 419 00:32:29.880 --> 00:32:32.680 years ago, and she comes on the TV and she says, we will 420 00:32:32.759 --> 00:32:37.119 find life. We will do it within twenty years. We have the technology 421 00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:38.960 to do it now. A lot of people, you know, she's not 422 00:32:39.039 --> 00:32:44.599 talking about like grays or little green menner so she's talking about like microbes or 423 00:32:44.640 --> 00:32:47.680 microbial life or something like that on other planets. But most people don't interpret 424 00:32:47.799 --> 00:32:52.920 her as saying that. They interpret her as saying we're going to find intelligent 425 00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:57.519 life. And so there's a bite to this new form of religiosity that's quite 426 00:32:57.559 --> 00:33:01.519 different from the old forms of religion of the past. So you know, 427 00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:07.480 so, but I mean the people that I met. I met various people 428 00:33:07.519 --> 00:33:12.480 from different types of sectors of society. I met people who were in programs. 429 00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:16.319 I've met people who were academics who had been recruited into programs. And 430 00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:23.240 I met academics who were studying just like me and um there, and what 431 00:33:23.279 --> 00:33:28.720 they were studying was of interest to like how put Off or people like that, 432 00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:31.640 you know, people from Bigelow's you know, he has like a crew 433 00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:37.319 of scientists. People from his crew would contact us, and so we were 434 00:33:37.400 --> 00:33:40.160 just as interested in them, you know, as they were interested into what 435 00:33:40.200 --> 00:33:44.079 we were doing as well. So it was kind of this mutual kind of 436 00:33:44.279 --> 00:33:46.160 what do you know, what do you know? Kind of thing. Wow, 437 00:33:46.880 --> 00:33:53.680 do you think that do you think that if right now we suddenly had 438 00:33:53.799 --> 00:34:04.359 one evidence say that we have been or that we are being visited from another 439 00:34:05.079 --> 00:34:08.360 by another intelligence, from another planet outside of the Solar System or whatever, 440 00:34:09.519 --> 00:34:16.920 do you think that would actually shape religion or change religions. Yes, that's 441 00:34:16.920 --> 00:34:22.239 a really good question. So I have a friend named Jeff Kreipel at Rice 442 00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:28.599 University, and he's been studying this for a long time and we differ on 443 00:34:28.599 --> 00:34:30.760 this, or at least we differ on this from the last time I talked 444 00:34:30.760 --> 00:34:36.239 to him, which is probably about on this topic, about two months ago. 445 00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:39.239 And so he thinks that it would change everything about religions, and religions 446 00:34:39.239 --> 00:34:46.000 would undergo a complete I wouldn't say breakdown, but they would be manifestly different. 447 00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:54.039 I tend to think that religions have already incorporated the idea of invisible entities 448 00:34:54.079 --> 00:34:59.760 and non human intelligences already. And I know for a fact within the Catholic 449 00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:05.159 Sure, I've been to the Vatican. I've talked to people there that many, 450 00:35:05.199 --> 00:35:12.199 many people in high up positions in the Vatican absolutely believe in ets. 451 00:35:12.280 --> 00:35:16.239 And that's just a fact. Now, is it a Catholic doctrine? No, 452 00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:21.320 or you know, will they soon make it one? Probably not. 453 00:35:21.400 --> 00:35:25.000 It takes them a long time to make any kind of doctrine. So so 454 00:35:25.360 --> 00:35:30.159 I don't think that it's going to impact religions at all. In fact, 455 00:35:30.199 --> 00:35:34.960 I think that a lot of people already believe and I don't think of that 456 00:35:35.079 --> 00:35:39.920 it's going to you know, I mean, how it shaped and what you 457 00:35:39.960 --> 00:35:45.760 know what we think about it is much more interesting to me, I think, 458 00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:49.119 because you know, a lot of people have these experiences, but like 459 00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:52.679 I show in my book, especially say with Ray Hernandez, these experiences get 460 00:35:52.760 --> 00:36:00.440 mediated completely and sometimes with the very opposite of how the people have experienced them, 461 00:36:00.719 --> 00:36:04.920 and that's how they're projected to the population. So a lot of times 462 00:36:04.920 --> 00:36:08.159 the population, you know, the will go on TV and think that's what 463 00:36:08.239 --> 00:36:12.639 an alien looks like or something like that. Well would how would we know 464 00:36:12.800 --> 00:36:15.960 what an alien looks like? Right, So, especially if you get the 465 00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:19.400 original person saying, no, that's not really how it was. Case in 466 00:36:19.519 --> 00:36:23.840 point, I actually did some interviews with people who had interviewed with John mac 467 00:36:24.199 --> 00:36:29.679 and were in his book, and so one of the people was Edward Carlos. 468 00:36:29.800 --> 00:36:36.639 Carlos and he is a he was a professor of art in Tennessee, 469 00:36:37.079 --> 00:36:42.599 and so he basically he had to co author his own chapter with John for 470 00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:46.960 the reason being that John kept calling it an abduction, and Carlos said, 471 00:36:47.400 --> 00:36:52.400 it's not an abduction. I feel as if it is an experience, and 472 00:36:52.599 --> 00:36:57.559 I feel that it is not. I don't feel abducted in any way. 473 00:36:57.559 --> 00:37:00.480 It's not violent. So abduction to him was a very violent term, and 474 00:37:00.599 --> 00:37:04.719 he felt that it was. He actually when I went and talked to him, 475 00:37:04.760 --> 00:37:08.880 I spent a whole weekend with his wife and him. And he's an 476 00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:13.880 artist. He has really beautiful art and a lot of it has like is 477 00:37:13.960 --> 00:37:22.079 all inspired by his experiences, and so it's really beautiful and expensive. But 478 00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:24.440 but you know, I mean, the thing is that his experiences then became 479 00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:29.119 abduction experiences because they were in John Max book, and John Max book then 480 00:37:29.159 --> 00:37:32.840 became a New York Times bestseller, and then that created the idea that people 481 00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:36.920 have of abduction. Right, So, I mean, what I'm trying to 482 00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:40.159 also say in my book is that every religion gets mediated that way. Like 483 00:37:40.280 --> 00:37:45.199 Christianities mediated that way. Judaism was mediated that way. So there are people 484 00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:50.519 with these experiences. They have these experiences, they tell other people, other 485 00:37:50.559 --> 00:37:53.559 people write them down. A lot of times they write them down and they 486 00:37:53.599 --> 00:37:59.000 get it wrong, and then it gets reinterpreted and then somehow, you know, 487 00:37:59.039 --> 00:38:01.599 if you get media involved, like today's media, it you know, 488 00:38:01.639 --> 00:38:06.800 I learned this in the conjuring Um, working as the history consultant on the 489 00:38:06.840 --> 00:38:12.079 first conjuring What happens is that the actual experience is completely different than what really 490 00:38:12.119 --> 00:38:15.480 did happen, and why because it sells more if it goes you know, 491 00:38:15.519 --> 00:38:19.320 if you do it this way, if you just do it differently, then 492 00:38:19.599 --> 00:38:24.000 you know, like Ray Hernandez's experience was positive he felt however, it was 493 00:38:24.679 --> 00:38:30.800 promoted as negative. And that's a big difference. Wow. Wow, this 494 00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:38.679 is really fascinating and the I'm sure you've heard of the Fatima yes, and 495 00:38:38.880 --> 00:38:44.880 have you done any research into that in particular? I actually write about it 496 00:38:44.920 --> 00:38:50.000 in my book. Oh yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, that is 497 00:38:50.199 --> 00:38:53.719 That was a fascinating situation. And for can you just in a nutshell some 498 00:38:53.880 --> 00:38:58.039 people out there, there's a lot of new listeners to the show actually, 499 00:38:58.239 --> 00:39:00.039 if you wouldn't mind just to kind of tell the story a little bit and 500 00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:05.440 that as much as you can. Oh absolutely so, Fatima is so there 501 00:39:05.440 --> 00:39:10.039 are a whole um what I would call there's a genre of apparitions of the 502 00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:15.559 Virgin Mary within the Catholic tradition, and they're called the Blessed Virgin Mary apparitions. 503 00:39:15.679 --> 00:39:20.559 And I actually just somebody, David Metcalfe actually just sent me a really 504 00:39:20.599 --> 00:39:24.199 cool art piece of the Virgin Mary as an astronaut, and I thought that 505 00:39:24.360 --> 00:39:31.119 was really neat. So but but so Fatima is, so let me talk 506 00:39:31.159 --> 00:39:37.440 about Catholic experiences in general if I may, only because that's what you know, 507 00:39:37.519 --> 00:39:39.800 that's kind of what I do. So I take I take Fatima in 508 00:39:39.880 --> 00:39:44.039 my book, and what I do is I break it. I look at 509 00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:47.079 the original sources and the original and when you look at the original sources of 510 00:39:47.079 --> 00:39:51.039 a lot of these, and I think, actually the best example of this, 511 00:39:51.119 --> 00:39:53.519 and I do do this too in the book is the Teresa of Abula 512 00:39:53.639 --> 00:39:59.280 experience of m because a lot of people go to Rome and they've seen this 513 00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:04.920 this statue you of Teresa Avla, who's this nun, the sixteenth century nun. 514 00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:09.280 And what happens is that she there's a statue of her in Rome and 515 00:40:09.320 --> 00:40:14.719 it's a very famous statue by this artist named Bernini, and it shows her 516 00:40:15.199 --> 00:40:19.360 and she's in ecstasy, and it shows a little angel, like a cherubic 517 00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:23.320 angel next to her with a dart. Okay, So, when I first 518 00:40:23.480 --> 00:40:30.960 recognize that the Catholic tradition had a lot of aerial phenomena and strange beings, 519 00:40:30.280 --> 00:40:35.679 I started to look at the original sources of these and and interpret them from 520 00:40:35.679 --> 00:40:38.039 the original languages, and so I looked at She actually writes about this in 521 00:40:38.079 --> 00:40:42.239 her diary, and any one of your listeners can go out and read it 522 00:40:42.280 --> 00:40:46.719 for themselves. Is translated well into English, and it's Spanish. And so 523 00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:51.119 basically what she says is, she says this it doesn't look anything. By 524 00:40:51.119 --> 00:40:54.280 the way, this is how it gets completely mediated. And the Fatima miracles 525 00:40:54.320 --> 00:40:59.800 and all and almost all the Virgin Mary miracle, I mean, apparitions are 526 00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:04.400 follow the same pattern, and this is the pattern. So she has this 527 00:41:04.519 --> 00:41:08.480 experience and she is not necessarily I hate to say this, not necessarily at 528 00:41:08.480 --> 00:41:15.079 the time of a particularly holy person um. And she has this experience, 529 00:41:15.079 --> 00:41:17.920 and she says, I usually see angels, but they're in my imagination, 530 00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:22.360 and they usually look like what I consider to be angels, which are you 531 00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:27.280 know, big beams with wings. But instead I see a short, shiny 532 00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:30.280 thing next to me, and it's actually not in my imagination. It's actually 533 00:41:30.280 --> 00:41:35.599 real. It's fleshy, and I can touch it. And instead of touching 534 00:41:35.599 --> 00:41:39.559 it, what it does is it takes this this um what you would call 535 00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:45.639 uh kind of like a like a dart or something like that, and it 536 00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:50.119 it um how would I put it in a nice way? I mean, 537 00:41:50.320 --> 00:41:54.400 you know it basically it examines her bowels, right, and so she's, 538 00:41:57.679 --> 00:42:00.760 yeah, I mean it's a you know, it's he says that it's a 539 00:42:00.760 --> 00:42:05.159 weird you know. She says that it's it's at the same time really amazing 540 00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:07.719 and really horrible at the same time. Okay, very similar to what you 541 00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:14.519 see and say Whitley Strieber's you know, and also in John Max's books and 542 00:42:14.559 --> 00:42:16.840 things like that. So if you read it and then you look at the 543 00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:22.440 Bernini statue, which is how people encounter that experience of hers, you can 544 00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:25.960 see there's a huge difference, right, And so then you see that the 545 00:42:27.039 --> 00:42:35.199 difference the original source looks much more similar to a what we would call today 546 00:42:35.559 --> 00:42:40.400 a quote unquote UFO experience. That does not mean it's a UFO experience. 547 00:42:40.480 --> 00:42:44.320 I don't know what it is. I don't I don't call you know, 548 00:42:44.360 --> 00:42:47.000 I go with Jacque La. I call it the phenomena. It's a phenomena 549 00:42:47.119 --> 00:42:52.400 that's odd. And there are patterns that you can see back, you know, 550 00:42:52.519 --> 00:42:54.800 hundreds of years ago, and you can still see it today. And 551 00:42:54.840 --> 00:43:00.800 so what is that phenomena? Well, that's the question, right, does 552 00:43:00.840 --> 00:43:04.760 it still happen, Yes, does it get completely mediated through culture so it 553 00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:08.880 becomes something completely different, absolutely more so than it did before. Probably the 554 00:43:08.960 --> 00:43:12.519 same, that's what I would say. So the Fatom, you know, 555 00:43:12.519 --> 00:43:15.920 if you look at the Fatom, a miracle where a lot of people. 556 00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:22.679 So, you know, three kids first see something that looks like it's flying 557 00:43:22.719 --> 00:43:27.400 along on a cloud or a disc, and it turns out to be what 558 00:43:27.440 --> 00:43:30.760 they think is an angel, and it announces to them that they're going to 559 00:43:30.800 --> 00:43:36.679 see something in the futures is going to be this lady, right, and 560 00:43:36.719 --> 00:43:40.159 so they never actually call her the Virgin and Mary, but this lady comes 561 00:43:40.280 --> 00:43:45.440 down and there's this buzzing sound. And I talk a lot about it because 562 00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:51.559 it has it has a lot of the elements that people talk about today, 563 00:43:51.599 --> 00:43:58.280 the buzzing sounds, the inability to you know, the feeling of not really 564 00:43:58.320 --> 00:44:00.079 being you know, being kind of like under water and kind of you know, 565 00:44:00.119 --> 00:44:04.639 everything slows down. And the strange thing about this, though, is 566 00:44:04.719 --> 00:44:12.480 that people actually do see this being announces to the children that it will appear 567 00:44:12.519 --> 00:44:15.840 to a lot of people, and so that all these people start to come 568 00:44:16.440 --> 00:44:22.000 and yes, exactly, and it's documented and you could go online and see 569 00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:28.119 this and you could see the pictures of it. There's an atheist there who 570 00:44:28.159 --> 00:44:30.039 writes a commentary on it, and I actually quote him in my book, 571 00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:35.159 and he says that I saw the sun. Everybody saw a thing. Some 572 00:44:35.199 --> 00:44:37.239 people saw the same things, and many people saw things that were different. 573 00:44:37.360 --> 00:44:44.159 But what was absolutely the case was that it had rained and then everybody was 574 00:44:44.239 --> 00:44:47.519 dry. And then they saw what people in the Catholic tradition people called the 575 00:44:47.559 --> 00:44:51.559 miracle of the Sun, where the where the sun looked like it was a 576 00:44:51.599 --> 00:44:57.880 big flying disc falling to the earth. And and the Catholic Church took a 577 00:44:57.880 --> 00:45:01.239 while to, you know, determine whether or not this was worthy of belief. 578 00:45:01.599 --> 00:45:07.519 And they believe that something supernatural did happen, and that's how Fatima was 579 00:45:07.719 --> 00:45:12.559 created, this idea of the Virgin Mary and Fatima. But many people there 580 00:45:12.679 --> 00:45:16.119 is a book that's all about this, and it's written in Spanish, and 581 00:45:16.159 --> 00:45:20.400 I can't I note it in my book, is in my bibliography, and 582 00:45:20.519 --> 00:45:22.599 Jacques Valet has written about this, and Jeff Krypool has written about this. 583 00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:28.119 So there are people who've written about the Fatima quote unquote miracle. This son 584 00:45:28.360 --> 00:45:30.960 and things like that. So it so, was it actually the Catholic Church 585 00:45:31.079 --> 00:45:37.719 that kind of changed it into like more of a religious happening, you know, 586 00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:43.039 the Virgin Mary and all that, or was someone else calling or just 587 00:45:43.119 --> 00:45:46.000 assuming that it was virgin the Virgin Mary. Well, you know, that's 588 00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:49.880 a really good question. That kind of puts a lot of agency, you 589 00:45:49.920 --> 00:45:53.039 know, and kind of you know, what are we going to call it? 590 00:45:53.360 --> 00:45:58.360 Right? Are we going to call it the UFO Virgin Mary event? 591 00:45:58.679 --> 00:46:00.039 You know? We don't know, know, I mean, I think what 592 00:46:00.199 --> 00:46:05.599 it was was that a lot of people found this to be a supernatural event 593 00:46:05.920 --> 00:46:08.559 that caused them to and most of them were Catholic, okay, because that's 594 00:46:08.559 --> 00:46:12.760 one of the most Catholic countries in the world, and so of course they're 595 00:46:12.760 --> 00:46:15.920 going to see it through. You know, they're going to see this as 596 00:46:15.079 --> 00:46:20.519 a Catholic miracle. And there's no doubt it was a you know, something 597 00:46:20.599 --> 00:46:28.119 that defied normal laws of what people see normally. People who didn't believe saw 598 00:46:28.159 --> 00:46:35.000 it. So so the Catholic Church deemed it worthy of belief. Now what 599 00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:37.440 does that mean? Does that mean the Catholic Church created the belief? I 600 00:46:37.480 --> 00:46:42.320 think that to assign quote unquote. I mean that's kind of almost like a 601 00:46:42.400 --> 00:46:47.480 signing blame. I think that there's there isn't. Really it's a process, 602 00:46:47.480 --> 00:46:51.559 Martin, is what I think it is. It's a process that takes place, 603 00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:58.119 and it doesn't necessarily take place intentionally by people, although with the UFO, 604 00:46:59.159 --> 00:47:01.599 with UFO narratives, it certainly does. It certainly has and I do 605 00:47:01.719 --> 00:47:06.079 mention that like with Project blue Book, and you know, a lot of 606 00:47:06.079 --> 00:47:09.960 the narrative has been quote unquote, like Robbie Graham has said managed and um, 607 00:47:10.440 --> 00:47:14.079 you know that's a manager. We've got here, a managed narrative. 608 00:47:14.320 --> 00:47:17.880 And what I'm basically saying is that there have been managed narratives in the past 609 00:47:17.920 --> 00:47:22.760 of you know, Christianity is a classic example. So uh, you know, 610 00:47:22.840 --> 00:47:27.239 there's been managed narratives of the early Christian Church that a lot of people 611 00:47:27.280 --> 00:47:30.760 in my field just take for granted. Our airmen writes a lot about it, 612 00:47:30.800 --> 00:47:36.199 you know, how Jesus became, you know, the you know Jesus 613 00:47:36.280 --> 00:47:42.239 I happen to be Catholic by the way, So um, but it could 614 00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:46.920 very well be excommunicated at any time. I don't think it's going to happen, 615 00:47:47.000 --> 00:47:51.960 though, because there's a lot of there's a lot of leeway in belief 616 00:47:52.679 --> 00:47:58.920 that the Catholic Church allows form. And I think that that's why if if 617 00:47:58.960 --> 00:48:02.800 it was indisputable that ET is here, that a lot of religions would just 618 00:48:02.840 --> 00:48:07.159 accept that. I think I think you're right. And also I have mentioned 619 00:48:07.159 --> 00:48:13.159 on this show over you know, over the last several years, UM things, 620 00:48:13.239 --> 00:48:15.280 you know, little bits of news from the Catholic Church, UM, 621 00:48:15.440 --> 00:48:23.519 like UM for instance that UM something about if intelligent, that there's possibly intelligent 622 00:48:23.559 --> 00:48:29.320 life out there and that we should baptize them or something like that. Did 623 00:48:29.320 --> 00:48:31.320 you did you hear that that one? Yeah? And there's been a few 624 00:48:31.320 --> 00:48:38.239 other things, and also the Observatory and uh with the uh the canon priests 625 00:48:38.280 --> 00:48:44.480 of the you know, astronomers, UM. They're very interested in this whole 626 00:48:44.519 --> 00:48:47.960 thing, which is fascinating Martin. You know I went there right. Oh 627 00:48:49.000 --> 00:48:51.079 no you did. No, Yeah, I didn't know you went there. 628 00:48:51.119 --> 00:48:54.440 No. See, I have not read your book before you invite me on 629 00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:58.519 your show. Yeah, I'm sorry about that. Yeah, it's okay. 630 00:48:58.599 --> 00:49:01.519 So I end with I know, brother Guy, brother Guy Consulmanio is the 631 00:49:01.559 --> 00:49:07.559 one who wrote the book called um would you Baptize an et? Okay, 632 00:49:07.719 --> 00:49:12.159 and he's a he's a judguit monk right, and an astronomer, and he 633 00:49:12.280 --> 00:49:15.440 is now the director of the Vatican Observatory and so, um, I met 634 00:49:15.519 --> 00:49:19.239 him through a friend of mine, Sister Rose, who I worked with here 635 00:49:20.039 --> 00:49:23.199 on campus. And so he came here and I didn't mean to call you 636 00:49:23.239 --> 00:49:25.199 out there or anything like that, was just oh no, no, that's 637 00:49:25.920 --> 00:49:30.599 it. Yeah, yeah, okay, so um, but I do know 638 00:49:30.639 --> 00:49:34.039 a bit about this. So he came out here a couple of years ago, 639 00:49:34.519 --> 00:49:37.920 and um, we were you know, he he had. I said 640 00:49:37.960 --> 00:49:40.400 to him where, you know, I'm a historian. I want to look 641 00:49:40.480 --> 00:49:45.280 through archives. I said, where are all the space? You know, 642 00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:47.559 everything that has to do is space. And again the Catholic history, where 643 00:49:47.599 --> 00:49:51.760 where is that? Is that at the Vatican Secret Archive? And he said 644 00:49:51.760 --> 00:49:54.800 no, that's actually at the Observatory, which is in Castle Gandolpho. And 645 00:49:54.840 --> 00:49:58.440 I said wow. I said, can I come see that sometime? And 646 00:49:58.440 --> 00:50:01.039 he said anytime. He we have a place there for scholars. You could 647 00:50:01.039 --> 00:50:04.320 stay there as long as you want, and I'll give you the keys to 648 00:50:04.360 --> 00:50:07.360 the archive and you know, and then you can stay there. So I 649 00:50:07.400 --> 00:50:12.480 took him up on his offer. And I took a friend of mine, 650 00:50:12.639 --> 00:50:16.280 well a colleague of mine from the Space program, the American Space Program with 651 00:50:16.320 --> 00:50:20.119 me, And so what we did was we went up there and we looked 652 00:50:20.159 --> 00:50:22.920 through you know, original Kepler's and I actually lost one and then found it. 653 00:50:23.320 --> 00:50:30.320 That pause quite a stir. But we also looked through them. You 654 00:50:30.360 --> 00:50:36.320 know, they have a whole wall that's called ET that's devoted to search for 655 00:50:36.400 --> 00:50:39.760 extraterrestrial life. And that was fast. So of course I started there and 656 00:50:39.800 --> 00:50:44.360 I went back and looked at everything, and it was really interesting. And 657 00:50:44.400 --> 00:50:46.599 this is the most interesting thing that I found. I found this and this 658 00:50:46.679 --> 00:50:52.199 could be a conspiracy in and of itself. So there is a lot of 659 00:50:52.599 --> 00:50:59.559 money given by the federal government openly to universities like Harvard and MIT to study 660 00:50:59.639 --> 00:51:04.880 this up until about like it looks like, around the nineteen eighties and then 661 00:51:05.079 --> 00:51:09.480 and this was to look for intelligent life, non human life out there, 662 00:51:09.519 --> 00:51:14.280 right ET intelligent life, and then it just stops and then there's this big 663 00:51:14.360 --> 00:51:21.199 gap and then it goes into like microbiology type things, right, like let's 664 00:51:21.239 --> 00:51:24.760 study you know, things that are not intelligent, but things that are. 665 00:51:24.920 --> 00:51:28.840 So I thought that was really interesting. I was like that's a big gap. 666 00:51:29.239 --> 00:51:30.599 And so I just took note of it. I don't know quite what 667 00:51:30.679 --> 00:51:36.079 to make of it. But my friend had his own theory, which I 668 00:51:36.559 --> 00:51:40.559 won't say, but you know what happened in the nineteen eighties, so um, 669 00:51:42.119 --> 00:51:45.000 you know is what he would ask me. And so we did. 670 00:51:45.119 --> 00:51:49.039 And by the way, you talking about people, you'd like to ride one 671 00:51:49.079 --> 00:51:52.639 of these spaceships and look, you know, look at the Earth through the 672 00:51:52.639 --> 00:51:55.840 spaceship and everything. Strangely enough, I was there, and I was at 673 00:51:55.840 --> 00:52:02.400 the Vatican Secret Archive actually to study the of a Spanish nun. She traveled, 674 00:52:02.920 --> 00:52:09.320 believed that she traveled in space on the wings quote unquote of angels over 675 00:52:09.400 --> 00:52:15.840 to New Mexico and evangelized the Native Americans there then indigenous population there. And 676 00:52:15.880 --> 00:52:20.719 she traveled and she believed that she saw the Earth spinning and she and her 677 00:52:20.760 --> 00:52:28.519 first book was a cosmography form of the of the She called it m I 678 00:52:28.599 --> 00:52:32.159 forgot exactly the name of it, but it was basically a cosmography of the 679 00:52:32.239 --> 00:52:37.320 Earth from space, which is kind of interesting. Yeah, So talk about 680 00:52:37.360 --> 00:52:40.360 the remote viewing thing. So she I would call her a proto remote viewer. 681 00:52:42.079 --> 00:52:45.480 How about that? Isn't that something. We are actually right at break 682 00:52:45.480 --> 00:52:51.400 time, so when we will jump back and continue our discussion here in just 683 00:52:51.519 --> 00:52:54.719 a couple of minutes, So hang in everyone. This is Martin Willis. 684 00:52:54.719 --> 00:53:00.800 My guest tonight is Diana Pasalka, and we'll be back right after these messages. 685 00:53:00.480 --> 00:53:02.559 All right, one, that's it for the free part of the show. 686 00:53:02.679 --> 00:53:07.079 Thank you so much for listening. Next week we'll be back with Ben 687 00:53:07.119 --> 00:53:10.360 Hanson and Walter Bosley. Ben's going to be on for the first half of 688 00:53:10.360 --> 00:53:14.800 the show, Walter on for the second half of the show. And if 689 00:53:14.800 --> 00:53:16.360 you want to listen to the full shows, all you have to do is 690 00:53:16.400 --> 00:53:20.960 support us for two dollars or more a month. All that information is on 691 00:53:21.079 --> 00:53:24.119 podcast ufo dot com. And thanks so much everyone, and remember to keep 692 00:53:24.159 --> 00:53:39.239 your eyes to the sky.