And it hits me, Oh my gosh, this is a triangle. You
know, there's explanation for everything that occurred in the randallsham Pars incident. It
doesn't involve aliens at all. It was completely silent. It comes right over
our heads. Classic. He's also really standing into clearing. He turned over
to my father and held his hand, and he looked in his eyes and
said, we're not alone. Welcome to podcast UFO for our live show.
During the show, feel free to participate live in our chat room, and
don't forget to like us on our very active Facebook page. Hello and welcome
to the show. This is Martin Willisher, host and we have a great
one for you this evening. A lot of people are excited about my guest.
I've gotten a lot of email. It's Diana Pasolka and she's a professor
of religious studies. I'll go into more of that as the time draw nears
when she's coming aboard. But right now and just a minute, we have
Alejandro Rojas joining us for UFO updates. And I do want to tell you
next week we're going to have a new phone number and that's through the KGr
A Radio. It's their Paranormal Radio app hotline, and so make sure you
add this number to your mobile phones. It's actually eighty five kg R a
DASH live or the real number is eight five five four seven two five four
eight three. And these going to be screen calls. It's all going to
start next week and we will que of course, when the calls are welcome,
which is generally I usually take calls in the second hour of the show.
I want to thank everyone that supports the show. Anyone can do that.
All you have to do is go over to podcast UFO dot com and
the informations over there. And speaking of information, our blog this week is
UFOs and the Science that of the scientists that love them. And so that's
a blog by Charles Lear. Another great blog. We have weekly blogs at
this point by Charles does a nice job and so I think that is going
to get us started. Alejandro, how are you doing today? Hello?
I am doing good. Busy, busy. Yeah. The world UFO Day.
Yeah is a UFO Day. I didn't know that it is, yeah,
And I guess it commemorates the Kenneth Mark Arnold sighting. And I even
had the local NBC network was in interviewing myself and Karen about World UFO Day.
So that's going to er in like an hour. Now, how come
I do a UFO show and I had no clue that is that's just embarrassing.
I can't believe that is embarrassing. Yeah, wow, you should be
reprimanded by the UFO Ufologists Council. Yeah I know. Wow, Yeah,
I think I just some ground away. Yeah awesome, well fun, and
so what else is happening? I know? And my social media even has
some goofy pictures around UFO Day, But yeah, a lot is going on.
So our good buddy MJ. Benaias and this is really cool. He's
been getting articles in Vice about UFOs and and yeah, that's so cool that
he's been able to do that. And his latest is called Meet Silicon Valley's
UFO Hunters. In fact, I think he even references your guest tonight in
that story. I Ansluka because in her book she was working with a Silicon
Valley kind of startup or not even startup. I think he's a venture capitalist.
She could, I'm sure she'll clear it all up. But about UFOs,
and so he's kind of talking about how there are these startups and there
are others that are into the topic, which is pretty interesting that you know,
people in Silicon Valley would have that interest. So it's a great article
and it ties into some other articles. In fact, there was another article
by Tyler Rogaway, who we've also interviewed from the war zone. He was
examining these Navy patents and you may ask, well, what does that have
to do with UFOs and everything. Well, there advanced theoretical physics these patents,
and what's interesting about them is help put Off, who is one of
the guys who works with a TIP with the lou El Hosando's Pentagon project.
In fact, they were helped. Put Off has worked with Robert Bigelow for
many years and so they were contracted to work and as some of these papers
are theoretical physics papers are in the eight TIP documents that we've seen, so
that's where his root is. In fact, it's very interesting how put Off
it's been working on paranormal topics with the government for decades. In fact,
he was instrumental in the Remote Viewing Project where it was kind of a psychic
project that the government had started up. He was working with Stanford and the
CIA at the beginning to develop this kind of psychic ability called remote viewing,
and that program went on for decades, many suspected still goes on. So
how put Up has been around for a long time, and he's referenced in
these documents, and that's kind of the tie in with a tip here.
But what's interesting about these documents is that many field it's kind of pseudoscience.
It is so theoretical, it's not provable. It's beyond the you know,
our capabilities completely, And so what he's kind of saying here is that although
at the patent office said, no, you know, these are just two
out there. They're not even you can't even demonstrate these technologies. But the
government came back because these were submitted by a government and navy physicists, and
they said, well, actually we're working on testing some of this stuff.
It is legit, and we believe the Chinese are working on it. So
they approved the patents to be reviewed and they're in the review process now and
so they were also made public. So it's just kind of a weird story,
especially because it's kind of not really stuff that can be worked on.
Well, another guy who's on social media quite a bit lately, Deep Passat
he actually wrote a medium article on this and kind of boiled it down some
more, which is helpful, and he kind of said the same thing,
it's ridiculous that a patent office is even looking at these things because they're really
far out there. But he gave a little more context to it. So
some of you may have heard Mitchio Kaku talk about UFOs and ets and he
often references I think it's called Cartache. It's a K scale they call it,
where they called civilizations by the amount of energy they can manipulate. Essentially,
a type point can manipulate or harness the energy of a son. We're
not even close to a type one. We're below that. But Deep mentions
in this article that it would take a type too civilization or more to be
able to harness the technology that is theorized in these papers, and some of
the papers, at least one of them even has the science a little messed
up. So he's wondering, you know, why are we even looking at
this set right now? His thing is kind of like he suspects the reason
why the Navy is putting out these patents, and this ties into help put
off an eight hip, it's because they think this is a sort of technology
that they're observing with these UFOs, like an animics incident, or for those
of you who have been watching Unidentified, you know, last week they reviewed
the Roosevelt case where these other jet fighters encountered these objects that were like cubes
inside of translucent orbs. And so he's saying that the media and science really
needs to take take note and take serious attention, because if the Navy is
serious that they believe, you know, there are these advanced technologies beyond our
abilities that are being observed, that this demonstrates that this is a big deal
to the Navy and to the government, and so it should be a big
deal to the general public and to the scientific community. He's essentially saying that,
you know, it demonstrates that the technology exists and as being observed,
so scientists in particular should be interested in understanding the science behind them and trying
to figure out what they are and who they are, and so some really
interesting stuff. He kind of talks about his motivation for being all of this
is kind of similar to mine. It's similar to something Commander David Fraber said.
He's a guy who chased you know that UFO and the Nimits event.
He said, I don't know whose they are, but I would like to
fly one because demonstrate this amazing technology. And it's kind of the same thing.
I got involved with this and one of the things that really gets me
I started off in school and wanting to be a rocket scientist is the idea
of being able to fly around and to check out the universe and go explore
like Star Trek or something. So, you know, it's exciting to him,
and he feels it should be exciting to others that these devices or these
aircraft seem to exist and somebody's flying them around. It's almost like they're trying
to reverse engineer from observation exactly. That's exactly what they're doing, and that's
what Bigelow has talked about doing in the past. You know, the move
On symposiums coming up and one of the speakers it's going to be John Schuchler,
who's a mentor of mine. He worked at NASA. That's exactly what
inspired him. Same with Bob Wood, who was an engineer aerospace engineer who's
also a board member with move On. So a lot of scientists had been
inspired and you know, kind of thinking, well, maybe if all we
can do is see these things and observe them, maybe there is some technology
that can be gleaned from the observations. And many scientists think that's ridiculous.
There's no way you can glean any science from just observations. Others disagree,
such as how put Off or others who believe that they are being able to
observe some of this technology in use and to the stars. In fact,
it's very serious about the potential of being able to develop some of these technologies
that are being observed. Yeah, it's almost like anything really amazing, you
know, starts with an idea and then you know, they figure out how
how to do whatever it is. It's just just along those lines, and
that's the science is. Yeah. Yeah, and it's observing a phenomena and
then trying to understand how that phenomena works, Yeah, and duplicate it.
Yeah, very interesting. Anything else happening, Let's see, there's tons there
are tons of headlines. It's an exciting time because the media is taking UFOs
so seriously. There are just a ton of headlines out there. So there
are interviews, a new interview with Chris smellon is out there. Yep,
there's This is a really interesting survey that was done by Rasmussen. I believe
it's the name of the company, and there's not a lot of outlets that
have picked it up, but essentially they're a survey company and they did a
survey about people people's beliefs regarding UFOs, Is it likely there's life on other
planets and that sort of thing. Most people said, we're kind of hesitant.
Now, one of the sites that broke this down is kind of a
political group, so they kind of broke down. They found there wasn't much
of a difference between political parties, but that men were more likely than women
to say it was very likely that there's intelligent life on other planets, to
the tune of men at thirty nine percent and women at twenty four percent.
So I found that kind of interesting. But as far as posing a threat
to national security, sixty one percent said no, twelve percent said yes,
and twenty seven unsure. I think that's important because the nature of what we're
hearing with these government programs is that you know they're seen as a threat,
but it seems like the general public has not fought onto that idea. However,
it's not necessarily that you know a tip or Lui Lesando is saying that
these are definitively a threat by the very nature of them being in our airspace
without us knowing who they are. That's what makes them a threat, not
necessarily their motivations, so we have to learn to be able to confirm whether
or not they are. However, government such as Chili who had Sepah,
which is a government ran Ufo research organization, they've actually had meetings with high
level officials to determine whether or not this is this phenomena as a threat,
and they've determined no, because they've seen so many encounters, including some similar
to the nimitzing counter where jets are scrambled, there's kind of a cat and
mouse and then the unknown objects flies off, that they haven't shown any overt
sort of aggressive behavior, and so they do not feel that they are necessarily
a threat. And I would say that just our own government hasn't necessarily gotten
there at least as far as we know, in assessing the motivations or the
potential for a threat. But because they can label it a threat, that
allows them to have these government programs and to get government funding. So it's
sort of a semantics thing as well. But it is sort of interesting that
right now, although this topic is becoming more popular, that the public by
far does not consider the phenomena threat. And that's probably a good thing,
because I think the public would feel much more uncomfortable with the whole idea if
they did perceive it as a threat. That is so true. Yeah,
it makes total sense. Yeah. Yeah, so that's a really interesting survey
out there. Yeah. Yeah, I wonder that's really something about the difference
between men and women and their beliefs. It's probably because women know that,
you know, us men aren't that intelligent, and they don't have much help,
much hope for finding more out there or more intelligence. She's true,
it would be very well, could could be, Alejandro, Thanks so much.
Yeah, no problem, we'll have to get You'll have to ask that
Dane what her perception is of all of that. But yeah, thank you
very much. Of course you can see all of this at open minds dot
tv right there on the front page. That's right, all right, I'll
talk to you next week. You take care of thank you, all right,
all right, all right, our guest of this evening. I'm very
glad to welcome Diana Polslka and she is a professor of Religious Studies at the
University of North Carolina Wilmington and a chair of the Department of Philosophy and Religion,
and her research focuses on religion and technology. I think that's fascinating,
including the supernatural, supernatural belief and it's con actions to the digital technologies and
environment. Very exciting. So welcome to the show, Diana. Thanks.
Can I go ahead and oh, yes, flick myself in? Yes,
do that please? Yes? Hey? Great, all right, yeah,
thank thanks so much for joining us. Absolutely my pleasure. Yeah, it's
a real pleasure. So can you tell the listening audience a little bit about
yourself and how with your background, how you got into this whole um,
this whole thing you've been studying. Yeah, sure, so I've I grew
up in California, and I went to undergraduate and graduate during the dot com
boom in you know, the early nineties and late nineties pretty much. You
know, you spend a lot of time when you get a PhD in school,
and what I did was a lot of people have misconceptions about religion,
and so first off, I want to tell the audience that in the field
of religious studies, what we do is we don't actually I'm not a minister,
We don't promote religion. We actually study it. So we study effects
of religion. In fact, someone like Jacques Valet when he spoke to the
un in the nineteen seventies, he basically said, it doesn't matter, you
know, whether or not UFOs or the phenomenon actually exists. Belief in it
exists and it is at an all time high. So the you know,
the reality, the objective reality, is beside the point. So in religious
studies that that's kind of our track. That's that's what we do. We
study how people believe, practices, how it affects society, how it emerges
from different types of environments society. And so what I did was I'm a
Catholic historian basically by training, and I looked at various kinds of things.
I was always interested in technology, of course, because I was within the
environment of Silicon Valley. I mean I went to school, you know,
at that two University of California or research universities right in the heart of Silicon
Valley. And then I did get my PhD at Syracuse University, and so
here I am in the South. And so how did I get into studying
UFOs. I was actually never I've actually never seen close encounters of the third
kind. I wasn't really interested in UFOs. And what happened was that I
was on a normal track of being a professor and looking at the historical tradition
of Christianity and Catholicism. And I did a book on the doctrine of purgatory,
which, for your listeners, if they don't know, is this doctrine
of where souls go after they die. Catholics believe in this kind of intermediate
place where if you're not good enough to get into heaven, you stay in
this place and you know, get better, your soul gets better and then
gets into heaven. And I found out that you know this is it took
me ten years to write this book. So yeah, sometimes you have to
do a lot of work to do that kind of thing. So I found,
you know, your research in the best of world should surprise you should
be surprised by your research, and I sure was. So I found that
purgatory started out as a place as places and there's still a purgatory cave in
Ireland on this lake called Lock Dirg, and people would go there in the
twelve hundred and thirteen hundreds, and purgatory then eventually became a dogma of the
Catholic Church and people would go there and they would do Yeah. So,
you know, so you can see then how religions really emerge from environment.
So I wanted to really show how there was this new type of religiosity that
had emerged from our techno environment or a new digital infrastructure, which we are
now in and we have no clue really you know how it's going to play
out for us. But I could tell that the belief systems of the people
around me were focused on non human intelligences and UFOs and things like that,
you know in Silicon Valley. And I also in my research on purgatory,
I came across a lot of aerial phenomena, and I started to read the
work of Jacques Valet Passport to Magonia read very much like my own purgatory book
in the sense that he was focusing on historical incidences of aerial phenomena, and
I honestly didn't know what I was looking at at the time. So I
just made a log and a list of this phenomena, and I showed it
to a friend of mine and the friend looked at it and said, well,
this looks like UFO. This looks like a Spielberg film. And I
thought it was crazy at the time, you know, and I said,
oh, you know, I kind of said no, no. But there
happened to be synchronistically a UFO conference in the town where I live, and
I attended it and I heard Chris Bledsoe. He made yeah, so he
lives near me, actually, and so I realized that this phenomena, the
aerial phenomena, was still around. And then I did all the preliminary research
on it and thought that I would go into this very easy study of a
comparison between ancient aerial phenomena and contemporary aerial phenomena. And I had no clue.
I was totally naive, and I got into something that in a sense
became something away over my head. At many points I decided I was going
to stop doing the research because it was just too weird for me. I
came across the scientists right yet that you and Alejandre were talking about, and
I decided that if I were going to do book on this, that the
new study would be to study them, and so I decided to immerse myself
within their communities and I Jacques Vallet became a friend, introduced me to many
of them. I meant many myself. I found out that there was a
long standing study that had been going on in the area in which I had
lived from as a child of people who had had experiences. And I have
a brother who's special Forces, and I was another brother who is now a
captain of the police force. And I won't say where, but in California.
He doesn't wanted to he doesn't want me to out him. But so,
you know, I mean, so there were there were lots of phenomena,
let's just put it that way, within the place where I had grown
up and I and I hadn't actually thought about it as as you have fau
phenomena until two thousand and eleven. In two thousand and twelve, and that's
really how I started my book. And I m instead of studying the experiencers,
the people who actually do the you know, I studied the people who
were the scientific experiencers, and I called them the meta experiencers. And in
many ways. They were what Jacques Vallet had termed in Heineck had termed the
invisible college. But they're not the invisible college anymore. They're more like fight
club, right, They're more like we don't talk about this so um.
So I was lucky to be involved in this group for many years, and
the book emerged directly from the being what's called ethnography, right, kind of
immersing yourself within these communities. And I just took a lot of notes,
um and did what I did. I just kind of documented what I thought
was a new type of religiosity is what we call it in my field.
Uh huh, wow, this is really fascinating. We got to go into
a break and just just two minutes or so. But there's there's also a
lot of parallels on in the belief systems too, isn't there between you know
a lot of a lot of things created in religions. I'm just guessing because
I don't have you know, the education that you have by any means,
but I mean it seems like when there's a lot of unexplained things, like
a religion would explain it in their magical or or you know, the work
of God or whatever it is. Um, so is there is there parallels
along the lines of the UFOs and creating religious religions being oh initiated? Yes,
absolutely, yes, this is basically the creation. I mean, what
we're looking at is the documentation of a new form of religion that's emerging from
the technology within which we live. We can't we can't get off the grid,
so we're inundated with you know, frequencies, radiation, you know,
all kinds of things that come directly from the black mirror, the screen of
our phones and computers and um, you know, technologies. So I'm being
aware that you need to go to break. But that's a question that I
could ask that I could answer more fully if you'd like, Yeah, sure,
yeah, okay, So why don't we hop into the break now?
All right, so hang in, everyone will be right back right now after
this break. You said that you grew up in California, so I thought
we we would talk a little bit off topic during this break in southern California,
you grew up and no, I'm sorry, no, I no,
I grew up in Dineral Folsome lake is fulsome lakes. Yeah, it's in
northern California, and it's right below Tahoe. Oh really, because I lived
in South Lake Tahoe, I should know where it is, but I don't.
Yes, And so there are a lot of things going on there.
Yeah, there's a there's a study that's ongoing since I think this seventies or
eighties of people who have had experiences there. Yes. Wow, And what
type are we talking about? You know, just UFO sightings are more than
that? No, unfortunately, we're talking about more than that. And we're
talking about people who have had direct C three I guess type episodes and sometimes
being injured and sometimes surviving their injuries. Yeah, uh huh. And these
are these a lot of times. I'm sure since you've looked at, you
know, this topic quite a bit, you know that a lot of people
have repeat experiences, Yes, things going on had Yeah, they've had repeat
experiences. Yeah. So it seems like that's a that's a very hot region
that people don't know about and maybe for for purposefully intentionally they don't know about
it. Yeah. So is this actually part of the Sierra? Yes it
is. Yeah, that's so beautiful there. I love it. I miss
it, Yeah, but you do. But it's funny. I've never really
um, you know, I I I actually was, I had moved out
of Lake Tahoe when um, when I had my UFO experience, and uh
so I didn't really pay attention to the topic when I was there, you
know, if things were actually happening in that region. But I know,
you know, of course, California is uh you know, one of the
is the top UFO sightings in the country, of course, and a lot
of it has to do with population and the good weather as well. Yeah,
that's true. You can see a lot right right, yeah, yeah,
all right, we got one minute left to this break. And so
as far as the area there, there are also other also like sightings that
you know of like that people actually see the craft or lights or yes,
yes, they see um kind of like the plasma craft. Oh it's like
the orbs or whatever. Yeah, but much larger than they generally are.
You know, they look like crafts, but they look like plasma crafts kind
of orange colored. Yeah. Yeah. There was someone doing research through moof
on that and he was just focusing on the orange you know, he called
them orange orbs. But you know, but that was his total focus.
He was on the show at one time. So yeah, um and anything
else or is it basically they're seeing more or less the same type of thing
there. No, I could tell you more, but I doubt I can't.
I can't actually says, you can't what I can't actually say? Yeah?
There is? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, wow. Well, um,
I do know that. I was trying to think of where it was.
Where I think it was the Marin County. Is there's someone I've been
in touch with out there, that's the area that I lived in when I
was for the most part of the nine years that I lived out there.
But I'm in touch with someone now that they're they're saying there's still a lot
of activity going all the way up to you know, all the way north
to the Oregon. Yes, yes, yeah, so really something else?
All right, welcome back. My guest tonight is Diana Possalka and dressed.
Before we went ato break, we were talking about meta experiencers and you were
talking about Shock Valet and very interesting you actually got to know him. Um,
he is. I'm sure you know he's an iconic person when it comes
to this topic in general. Absolutely, Yes, he's iconic in general.
Yeah, that's right, he is. He is in many ways. Yes,
yeah, and my friend Lee Spiegel's show is going live. I believe
it's I want to say it's August first or August fourth. Let me just
take a look at the calendar. And that's going to be his first guest
on the show. Wow, yeah, he's and I believe it is August
first. He's going to be coming up Lee Spiegel. So everyone should pay
attention to that night. Should be a really great show. Yeah. I
did get to meet and boy is he tall. Yes, he's tall.
Yeah, and very nice. And it had a nice, really nice conversation
with him. And yeah, I like the fact that, you know,
his attitude after all these years is you know, basically we still have no
idea or it could be many things. Yeah, I tend to think that
it is many things. Frankly. Yeah, and how do you know,
how do you approach that? Okay, so, I mean if you think
about it, well, first let's get back to your question about how is
this kind of like a religion? Oh yes, right, if that's all
right? Yeah, so yeah, okay, So in my so, basically
we tend to think here in the United States of religions as the kinds of
you know, if it doesn't look like the kinds of religions of which we
are familiar, which are the Western types of religions, you know, Christianity
or Judaism. They don't have a God, and you know, we tend
to think, well, I don't see the correlation between UFO belief and UFOs
and religion, and I always like to respond to that, like I do
with my students. You know, if you knew there are thousands of religions
and there are many of them, they don't even look like each other.
If you took Christian religions, they don't look like each other. Okay,
lots of like Catholicism. When I first got to the South, a lot
of my students didn't know that Catholics were Christians, and I had to kind
of do a timeline and show, you know, well, actually, you
know, so look at Buddhism. Zen Buddhism, it's basically there's no God,
and they want you to get rid of any concept or dot or even
religious dogma. So you know, so religions don't look like each other.
But what do they have in common? Well, a lot of things that
they have in common is they try to answer the big questions about our places
in the universe or places in the cosmos, and a lot of times that
you have in religions are beings from the sky coming down and meeting with humans,
like non human intelligence coming down from the sky, sometimes in a vehicle,
sometimes not with wings, sometimes sometimes with no wings, and they somehow
impart to us wisdom, technology, ways of being, and things like that.
So, if you take religion in that most very basic form, that's
what we're seeing here. It's also mythology. You know, the myth of
Prometheus, right, So Prometheus is this immortal he's not a god, he's
like a god person. He's a titan, and he gives humans technology and
then gets horribly punished for it. Right, So what we're seeing here is
we're seeing kind of like this mythology that is now in my end. What
surprised me most about what I was doing was that I was actually meeting people
who were actually creating this technology, so it wasn't really a myth anymore.
And I thought, well, this is the weirdest thing I've ever studied in
my life, because you know, if you look at what I've published,
it's all you can look at it and say, surely that's just you know
what they thought at the time, but you can't say that now because we're
actually living within the technologies that these people are creating. Now. Whether or
not their belief system is accurate that this is non human intelligence in fact,
is beside the point. The point is is that this type of religiosity is
effect is effecting, you know, is it's effectual. It's creating the types
of environment with which we live. So there's list give and take of this
religion. Not to mention that there are also sightings that we can't identify,
and there are also people like the chief of NASA. I think it's Ellis
so Fond, but I'm not quite sure she's still she was a couple of
years ago, and she comes on the TV and she says, we will
find life. We will do it within twenty years. We have the technology
to do it now. A lot of people, you know, she's not
talking about like grays or little green menner so she's talking about like microbes or
microbial life or something like that on other planets. But most people don't interpret
her as saying that. They interpret her as saying we're going to find intelligent
life. And so there's a bite to this new form of religiosity that's quite
different from the old forms of religion of the past. So you know,
so, but I mean the people that I met. I met various people
from different types of sectors of society. I met people who were in programs.
I've met people who were academics who had been recruited into programs. And
I met academics who were studying just like me and um there, and what
they were studying was of interest to like how put Off or people like that,
you know, people from Bigelow's you know, he has like a crew
of scientists. People from his crew would contact us, and so we were
just as interested in them, you know, as they were interested into what
we were doing as well. So it was kind of this mutual kind of
what do you know, what do you know? Kind of thing. Wow,
do you think that do you think that if right now we suddenly had
one evidence say that we have been or that we are being visited from another
by another intelligence, from another planet outside of the Solar System or whatever,
do you think that would actually shape religion or change religions. Yes, that's
a really good question. So I have a friend named Jeff Kreipel at Rice
University, and he's been studying this for a long time and we differ on
this, or at least we differ on this from the last time I talked
to him, which is probably about on this topic, about two months ago.
And so he thinks that it would change everything about religions, and religions
would undergo a complete I wouldn't say breakdown, but they would be manifestly different.
I tend to think that religions have already incorporated the idea of invisible entities
and non human intelligences already. And I know for a fact within the Catholic
Sure, I've been to the Vatican. I've talked to people there that many,
many people in high up positions in the Vatican absolutely believe in ets.
And that's just a fact. Now, is it a Catholic doctrine? No,
or you know, will they soon make it one? Probably not.
It takes them a long time to make any kind of doctrine. So so
I don't think that it's going to impact religions at all. In fact,
I think that a lot of people already believe and I don't think of that
it's going to you know, I mean, how it shaped and what you
know what we think about it is much more interesting to me, I think,
because you know, a lot of people have these experiences, but like
I show in my book, especially say with Ray Hernandez, these experiences get
mediated completely and sometimes with the very opposite of how the people have experienced them,
and that's how they're projected to the population. So a lot of times
the population, you know, the will go on TV and think that's what
an alien looks like or something like that. Well would how would we know
what an alien looks like? Right, So, especially if you get the
original person saying, no, that's not really how it was. Case in
point, I actually did some interviews with people who had interviewed with John mac
and were in his book, and so one of the people was Edward Carlos.
Carlos and he is a he was a professor of art in Tennessee,
and so he basically he had to co author his own chapter with John for
the reason being that John kept calling it an abduction, and Carlos said,
it's not an abduction. I feel as if it is an experience, and
I feel that it is not. I don't feel abducted in any way.
It's not violent. So abduction to him was a very violent term, and
he felt that it was. He actually when I went and talked to him,
I spent a whole weekend with his wife and him. And he's an
artist. He has really beautiful art and a lot of it has like is
all inspired by his experiences, and so it's really beautiful and expensive. But
but you know, I mean, the thing is that his experiences then became
abduction experiences because they were in John Max book, and John Max book then
became a New York Times bestseller, and then that created the idea that people
have of abduction. Right, So, I mean, what I'm trying to
also say in my book is that every religion gets mediated that way. Like
Christianities mediated that way. Judaism was mediated that way. So there are people
with these experiences. They have these experiences, they tell other people, other
people write them down. A lot of times they write them down and they
get it wrong, and then it gets reinterpreted and then somehow, you know,
if you get media involved, like today's media, it you know,
I learned this in the conjuring Um, working as the history consultant on the
first conjuring What happens is that the actual experience is completely different than what really
did happen, and why because it sells more if it goes you know,
if you do it this way, if you just do it differently, then
you know, like Ray Hernandez's experience was positive he felt however, it was
promoted as negative. And that's a big difference. Wow. Wow, this
is really fascinating and the I'm sure you've heard of the Fatima yes, and
have you done any research into that in particular? I actually write about it
in my book. Oh yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, that is
That was a fascinating situation. And for can you just in a nutshell some
people out there, there's a lot of new listeners to the show actually,
if you wouldn't mind just to kind of tell the story a little bit and
that as much as you can. Oh absolutely so, Fatima is so there
are a whole um what I would call there's a genre of apparitions of the
Virgin Mary within the Catholic tradition, and they're called the Blessed Virgin Mary apparitions.
And I actually just somebody, David Metcalfe actually just sent me a really
cool art piece of the Virgin Mary as an astronaut, and I thought that
was really neat. So but but so Fatima is, so let me talk
about Catholic experiences in general if I may, only because that's what you know,
that's kind of what I do. So I take I take Fatima in
my book, and what I do is I break it. I look at
the original sources and the original and when you look at the original sources of
a lot of these, and I think, actually the best example of this,
and I do do this too in the book is the Teresa of Abula
experience of m because a lot of people go to Rome and they've seen this
this statue you of Teresa Avla, who's this nun, the sixteenth century nun.
And what happens is that she there's a statue of her in Rome and
it's a very famous statue by this artist named Bernini, and it shows her
and she's in ecstasy, and it shows a little angel, like a cherubic
angel next to her with a dart. Okay, So, when I first
recognize that the Catholic tradition had a lot of aerial phenomena and strange beings,
I started to look at the original sources of these and and interpret them from
the original languages, and so I looked at She actually writes about this in
her diary, and any one of your listeners can go out and read it
for themselves. Is translated well into English, and it's Spanish. And so
basically what she says is, she says this it doesn't look anything. By
the way, this is how it gets completely mediated. And the Fatima miracles
and all and almost all the Virgin Mary miracle, I mean, apparitions are
follow the same pattern, and this is the pattern. So she has this
experience and she is not necessarily I hate to say this, not necessarily at
the time of a particularly holy person um. And she has this experience,
and she says, I usually see angels, but they're in my imagination,
and they usually look like what I consider to be angels, which are you
know, big beams with wings. But instead I see a short, shiny
thing next to me, and it's actually not in my imagination. It's actually
real. It's fleshy, and I can touch it. And instead of touching
it, what it does is it takes this this um what you would call
uh kind of like a like a dart or something like that, and it
it um how would I put it in a nice way? I mean,
you know it basically it examines her bowels, right, and so she's,
yeah, I mean it's a you know, it's he says that it's a
weird you know. She says that it's it's at the same time really amazing
and really horrible at the same time. Okay, very similar to what you
see and say Whitley Strieber's you know, and also in John Max's books and
things like that. So if you read it and then you look at the
Bernini statue, which is how people encounter that experience of hers, you can
see there's a huge difference, right, And so then you see that the
difference the original source looks much more similar to a what we would call today
a quote unquote UFO experience. That does not mean it's a UFO experience.
I don't know what it is. I don't I don't call you know,
I go with Jacque La. I call it the phenomena. It's a phenomena
that's odd. And there are patterns that you can see back, you know,
hundreds of years ago, and you can still see it today. And
so what is that phenomena? Well, that's the question, right, does
it still happen, Yes, does it get completely mediated through culture so it
becomes something completely different, absolutely more so than it did before. Probably the
same, that's what I would say. So the Fatom, you know,
if you look at the Fatom, a miracle where a lot of people.
So, you know, three kids first see something that looks like it's flying
along on a cloud or a disc, and it turns out to be what
they think is an angel, and it announces to them that they're going to
see something in the futures is going to be this lady, right, and
so they never actually call her the Virgin and Mary, but this lady comes
down and there's this buzzing sound. And I talk a lot about it because
it has it has a lot of the elements that people talk about today,
the buzzing sounds, the inability to you know, the feeling of not really
being you know, being kind of like under water and kind of you know,
everything slows down. And the strange thing about this, though, is
that people actually do see this being announces to the children that it will appear
to a lot of people, and so that all these people start to come
and yes, exactly, and it's documented and you could go online and see
this and you could see the pictures of it. There's an atheist there who
writes a commentary on it, and I actually quote him in my book,
and he says that I saw the sun. Everybody saw a thing. Some
people saw the same things, and many people saw things that were different.
But what was absolutely the case was that it had rained and then everybody was
dry. And then they saw what people in the Catholic tradition people called the
miracle of the Sun, where the where the sun looked like it was a
big flying disc falling to the earth. And and the Catholic Church took a
while to, you know, determine whether or not this was worthy of belief.
And they believe that something supernatural did happen, and that's how Fatima was
created, this idea of the Virgin Mary and Fatima. But many people there
is a book that's all about this, and it's written in Spanish, and
I can't I note it in my book, is in my bibliography, and
Jacques Valet has written about this, and Jeff Krypool has written about this.
So there are people who've written about the Fatima quote unquote miracle. This son
and things like that. So it so, was it actually the Catholic Church
that kind of changed it into like more of a religious happening, you know,
the Virgin Mary and all that, or was someone else calling or just
assuming that it was virgin the Virgin Mary. Well, you know, that's
a really good question. That kind of puts a lot of agency, you
know, and kind of you know, what are we going to call it?
Right? Are we going to call it the UFO Virgin Mary event?
You know? We don't know, know, I mean, I think what
it was was that a lot of people found this to be a supernatural event
that caused them to and most of them were Catholic, okay, because that's
one of the most Catholic countries in the world, and so of course they're
going to see it through. You know, they're going to see this as
a Catholic miracle. And there's no doubt it was a you know, something
that defied normal laws of what people see normally. People who didn't believe saw
it. So so the Catholic Church deemed it worthy of belief. Now what
does that mean? Does that mean the Catholic Church created the belief? I
think that to assign quote unquote. I mean that's kind of almost like a
signing blame. I think that there's there isn't. Really it's a process,
Martin, is what I think it is. It's a process that takes place,
and it doesn't necessarily take place intentionally by people, although with the UFO,
with UFO narratives, it certainly does. It certainly has and I do
mention that like with Project blue Book, and you know, a lot of
the narrative has been quote unquote, like Robbie Graham has said managed and um,
you know that's a manager. We've got here, a managed narrative.
And what I'm basically saying is that there have been managed narratives in the past
of you know, Christianity is a classic example. So uh, you know,
there's been managed narratives of the early Christian Church that a lot of people
in my field just take for granted. Our airmen writes a lot about it,
you know, how Jesus became, you know, the you know Jesus
I happen to be Catholic by the way, So um, but it could
very well be excommunicated at any time. I don't think it's going to happen,
though, because there's a lot of there's a lot of leeway in belief
that the Catholic Church allows form. And I think that that's why if if
it was indisputable that ET is here, that a lot of religions would just
accept that. I think I think you're right. And also I have mentioned
on this show over you know, over the last several years, UM things,
you know, little bits of news from the Catholic Church, UM,
like UM for instance that UM something about if intelligent, that there's possibly intelligent
life out there and that we should baptize them or something like that. Did
you did you hear that that one? Yeah? And there's been a few
other things, and also the Observatory and uh with the uh the canon priests
of the you know, astronomers, UM. They're very interested in this whole
thing, which is fascinating Martin. You know I went there right. Oh
no you did. No, Yeah, I didn't know you went there.
No. See, I have not read your book before you invite me on
your show. Yeah, I'm sorry about that. Yeah, it's okay.
So I end with I know, brother Guy, brother Guy Consulmanio is the
one who wrote the book called um would you Baptize an et? Okay,
and he's a he's a judguit monk right, and an astronomer, and he
is now the director of the Vatican Observatory and so, um, I met
him through a friend of mine, Sister Rose, who I worked with here
on campus. And so he came here and I didn't mean to call you
out there or anything like that, was just oh no, no, that's
it. Yeah, yeah, okay, so um, but I do know
a bit about this. So he came out here a couple of years ago,
and um, we were you know, he he had. I said
to him where, you know, I'm a historian. I want to look
through archives. I said, where are all the space? You know,
everything that has to do is space. And again the Catholic history, where
where is that? Is that at the Vatican Secret Archive? And he said
no, that's actually at the Observatory, which is in Castle Gandolpho. And
I said wow. I said, can I come see that sometime? And
he said anytime. He we have a place there for scholars. You could
stay there as long as you want, and I'll give you the keys to
the archive and you know, and then you can stay there. So I
took him up on his offer. And I took a friend of mine,
well a colleague of mine from the Space program, the American Space Program with
me, And so what we did was we went up there and we looked
through you know, original Kepler's and I actually lost one and then found it.
That pause quite a stir. But we also looked through them. You
know, they have a whole wall that's called ET that's devoted to search for
extraterrestrial life. And that was fast. So of course I started there and
I went back and looked at everything, and it was really interesting. And
this is the most interesting thing that I found. I found this and this
could be a conspiracy in and of itself. So there is a lot of
money given by the federal government openly to universities like Harvard and MIT to study
this up until about like it looks like, around the nineteen eighties and then
and this was to look for intelligent life, non human life out there,
right ET intelligent life, and then it just stops and then there's this big
gap and then it goes into like microbiology type things, right, like let's
study you know, things that are not intelligent, but things that are.
So I thought that was really interesting. I was like that's a big gap.
And so I just took note of it. I don't know quite what
to make of it. But my friend had his own theory, which I
won't say, but you know what happened in the nineteen eighties, so um,
you know is what he would ask me. And so we did.
And by the way, you talking about people, you'd like to ride one
of these spaceships and look, you know, look at the Earth through the
spaceship and everything. Strangely enough, I was there, and I was at
the Vatican Secret Archive actually to study the of a Spanish nun. She traveled,
believed that she traveled in space on the wings quote unquote of angels over
to New Mexico and evangelized the Native Americans there then indigenous population there. And
she traveled and she believed that she saw the Earth spinning and she and her
first book was a cosmography form of the of the She called it m I
forgot exactly the name of it, but it was basically a cosmography of the
Earth from space, which is kind of interesting. Yeah, So talk about
the remote viewing thing. So she I would call her a proto remote viewer.
How about that? Isn't that something. We are actually right at break
time, so when we will jump back and continue our discussion here in just
a couple of minutes, So hang in everyone. This is Martin Willis.
My guest tonight is Diana Pasalka, and we'll be back right after these messages.
All right, one, that's it for the free part of the show.
Thank you so much for listening. Next week we'll be back with Ben
Hanson and Walter Bosley. Ben's going to be on for the first half of
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