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This is a studio both and production. Did he say he had buried them

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or he was buried? Okay,
you're talking about the prior and did he

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tell you whether he had buried them
or not? What was your reaction to

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him being and did you know where
he was, like what state he was

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in when he called you? And
where would you think he might bury guns

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in Texas? Well? I guess
I'm trying to get what was your reaction?

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You know, when someone says I'm
going to go bury my guns and

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I'm somewhere in Texas and he doesn't
live there. WHOA, this is true

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crime bullshit. I'm your host,
Josh Hallmark, and this is a serialized

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story of Israel Keys. In April
twenty ninth, twenty twelve interview with Kim,

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the FBI asked her about a call
she received from Israel while he was

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in Texas, specifically the call she
received from Israel while he was allegedly stuck

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in the mud in Cleeburn. Here's
what she said. I remember him calling

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me the night he got stuck in
the mud and couldn't make his flight.

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Like I definitely definitely talked to him
that night. He called and said that

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he was stuck in the mud,
and he didn't have money for gas,

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and he his credit cards weren't working, and that he had to call his

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family to come pick him up and
bring him money for gas or something so

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and that he, you know,
was gonna have to change his ticket.

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They then go on to ask whether
he told her where he was or what

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he was doing when he got stuck
in the mud, and she says,

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somewhat non shalantley, that he was
burying his guns. He told you that,

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mm hmm. He always, you
know, has done that. He's

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always done that. M h What
does that mean? When he had guns

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in his property in New York,
he had them buried there because the property

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got vandalized and stuff. Did he
tell you this or did you see it?

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He told me, I never saw
it. He said that when he

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had gone back, it had been
really vandalized, so he just buried them

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so they'd be there so he could
get them back. He said he did

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that a long time ago, and
he said he'd done that before he ever

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even left New York, upstate New
York. As Kim is relaying this,

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you can tell she's starting to realize
how ridiculous it sounds. At one point

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she even kind of laughs at how
preposterous it all is. And while there's

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a lot to unpack regarding that phone
call from Texas, for now, we're

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going to focus on upstate New York. Keys was always a bit cagy and

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inconsistent when discussing his constable house.
In some interviews, he tells the FBI

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that he went to it every time
he was in the Northeast, which by

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our count is at the very least
nine times in twelve years, but in

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other interviews he minimizes the time that
he's spent there. And then this is

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a photo from the firepit area behind
the house. Oh yeah, it's all

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right, yeah, because I from
Mandarin and those are some beads from the

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necklace. Huh yeah. I haven't
burned anything that fit for a long time.

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So was there ever a time that
you burned anything of significance in that

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firepit? No, not a grace, anything that crimes, possibly, but

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nothing nothing like this. No,
this is all ancient, all right.

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I mean I haven't really spent much
time there ever since that was in an

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army. So this this isn't going
to be a rank to somebody that we

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need to be worried about, though, and whenever keys gets cagy or inconsistent,

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it's worth looking into. Earlier this
year, we were able to obtain

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more than fifty photos from the constable
property, interiors, exteriors, outbuildings,

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the woods, and those photos tell
a lot of stories. One of the

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most important of those stories is that
this property has not been sealed off nor

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protected from the world. In many
ways, most of the outbuildings have completely

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caved in on themselves. The foyer
is flooded, the stairwell has entirely detached

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from the ground floor. There are
multiple holes in the roof, exposing the

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interior of the house to the elements. Weeds have swallowed much of the property,

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but worse than that, it's been
overrun by weeds of a different kind

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people. There is graffiti throughout the
house, windows have been broken. Who

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knows what has been taken. Even
on our most recent visit, there were

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multiple tracks of footprints in the fresh
snow what appeared to be tire tracks on

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the property. This incredibly important crime
scene has not been preserved, and what's

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even worse, people appear to have
been intentionally tampering with it. What stood

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out the most to me were the
shoes. There were shoes all throughout the

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house, all women's shoes. Most
appeared to be missing their pears, which

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of course made us think of Gene
Hyatt's lone shoe recovered from boiler Bay.

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But many of the shoes were clearly
placed there to look like evidence. One

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shoe left near the crawl space was
manufactured sometime between twenty seventeen and twenty twenty

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one, and I guess the upside
to that is at least this asshole was

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a stupid asshole. But many of
the shoes have clearly been there for a

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very long time. A single flip
flop wedged behind a bathroom door, a

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pair of women's work shoes a brand
that went defunct in two thousand and four,

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a single red women's rain boot,
a single woman's ice skate dodged beneath

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a caved in roof in one of
the outbuildings, a pair of women's roller

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skates next to it. Beyond the
shoes, the house is full of other

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signs of life and death. Nail
polish newspapers from two thousand four, in

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two thousand six, rubber gloves,
VisQueen motor oil, draino pliers with a

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small bone wedged into them, and
in the woods behind the house, multiple

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mattresses and box springs scattered about,
a home depot, bucket full of what

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Jordan believes to be pipe bombs or
at the very least pipe bomb making materials,

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an odd makeshift frame standing about five
feet tall by four feet wide and

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wrapped with barbed wire, and most
eerie of all amongst all this a rusted

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old swing set. There are unfortunately
no photos of the burn pit that was

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mentioned by Keys and the FBI,
nor are there any deeper into the woods

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behind his house. But what we've
seen, particularly with the shoes, has

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given us more to investigate and possibly
connect Keys, or at least as property

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to missing people. We've scoured Charlie
Project and NamUs looking for people who were

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last seen wearing shoes that could match
any of these, and we've sent the

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photos to doctor Cuncle to see if
perhaps any of them, specifically the women's

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00:08:39,799 --> 00:08:48,759
work shoes could have belonged to Susie
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That's better help h elp dot com
slash tcb. The photos from the constable

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00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:20,480
house also paint a grim picture of
what kind of activity could have taken place

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00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:26,279
there. A concrete and cinderblock addition
had bars bolted over the windows. A

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crawl space never mentioned in the FBI
search of the property was filled with rolls

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of VisQueen wrap. An outhouse on
the property is riddled with bullet holes,

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more than a dozen shot through two
different walls. It's somehow both fathomless and

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effortless to imagine what Keys was doing
on this isolated property. My other serial

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00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:56,320
killer hero, I guess not really
even irrelevant because it was so long ago.

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Was she was pretty much a genius. But back in his day,

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it was pretty easy to be a
genius, cause nobody really expected stuff like

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that back then, so you got
away with it for a long time,

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and no technology really to have to
outsmart. Right back then, you could

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hire other people to build dungeons for
you, and nobody would even think twice

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about it. I'm like, oh, like I wants a dungeon well,

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anything I built like that nowadays I
kind of have to do myself. That

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00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:52,519
kind of warrants an obvious follow up
question of do you have a dungeon?

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00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:58,879
Have you ever built anything like that? Nah? No, nothing, No,

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however, something you would have liked
to have though, Oh I had

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plenty of plans for'em. It's
not really the more my retirement plan.

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00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:20,919
Your stuff seems to be. The
stuff that we know about seems to be

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00:12:22,879 --> 00:12:28,000
kind of quick in the sense that
it happens over a day period of time

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00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,080
or twelve hour period of time or
something like that. And again, I've

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00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,039
told you more. We're gonna get
into, like push it for specifics on

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00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:37,679
a lot of this, on this
kind of stuff. But were there crimes?

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00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:54,440
Were you you did keep someone for
longer than that? No, No,

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00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,960
it's a few hours plans to and
didn't work out, Or did you

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00:13:01,279 --> 00:13:05,279
purposely kept it short like that for
logistics reasons? I'm not getting caught.

135
00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:20,879
Yeah I was. I had plans
to. You know, it would have

136
00:13:20,919 --> 00:13:26,399
been nice if I could have done
that, but I was never set up

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00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:31,200
to do it to where it will. It would have been pretty higher risk

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00:13:31,639 --> 00:13:43,279
if it ever tried to do that
again. Keyses, caginess, long pauses,

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00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:48,519
mutterings, tone and volume changes,
the rale of the telltale signs that

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00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:52,159
he's lying, and when asked if
he has a dungeon, his response is

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00:13:52,200 --> 00:14:00,919
not entirely reassuring, nor adamant.
Uh not No. Nothing that elaborate.

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00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:07,320
Nothing that elaborate does not exactly set
one's mind at ease, and it certainly

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00:14:07,399 --> 00:14:15,840
isn't a no hard stop. There
are at least two people, Deborah Feldman

144
00:14:15,919 --> 00:14:20,600
and Susie Lyle. It stands to
reason he could have taken back to Constable

145
00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:24,279
if he was willing to drive four
and a half hours from Hackensack to Tupper

146
00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:28,600
Lake with Deborah Feldman in his car. Why wouldn't he drive the extra hour

147
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:33,879
to Constable, where he knew he'd
have privacy, time and control over his

148
00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:41,919
environment, Especially considering the more than
twenty four hour gap between her disappearance and

149
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:45,960
when he robbed the bank in Tupper
Lake, just two miles from where he

150
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:52,000
claims to have buried the New York
victim's remains, and if keyes was responsible

151
00:14:52,039 --> 00:14:58,039
for Susie Lyle's disappearance, he would
have abducted her just three hours from his

152
00:14:58,159 --> 00:15:03,600
cabin at a time where he was
inexperienced and more fantasy prone than ever,

153
00:15:03,759 --> 00:15:09,919
and that brings us to Susie and
reports we recently received regarding a man or

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00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:13,559
two men on the Sunny campus in
the weeks leading up to and following Susi's

155
00:15:13,559 --> 00:15:20,879
disappearance. A safety report fax to
the Sunny Student Affairs office on February twenty

156
00:15:20,919 --> 00:15:26,159
eight, just two days before Susie
disappeared, described an attempted assault on a

157
00:15:26,159 --> 00:15:31,799
female student on campus on February twenty
fourth, six days before the disappearance.

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00:15:31,679 --> 00:15:37,759
It reads as follows. The individual
pictured above verbally confronted and then ran after

159
00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:43,879
a female student in the area of
the Liberty construction site between Dutch and Indian

160
00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:48,360
Quads on Tuesday, February twenty fourth, at approximately nine thirty p m.

161
00:15:48,919 --> 00:15:52,559
The student was not touched nor injured, nor was any weapon displayed. The

162
00:15:52,639 --> 00:15:58,799
individual was driving a large, older, possibly rusted, white station wagon which

163
00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:03,519
may have had fog life heights description
white male, medium height, heavy build,

164
00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:08,639
shoulder length, black wavy hair,
last seen wearing a black jacket and

165
00:16:08,759 --> 00:16:15,799
possibly black sweatpants. Of the two
safety reports, this one is the least

166
00:16:15,879 --> 00:16:21,840
compelling. Keys was six foot two
and had a lean, muscular build,

167
00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:25,519
and as far as we can tell
through the photos we have, he had

168
00:16:25,639 --> 00:16:30,240
very short hair at this time,
and while the sketch in the face looked

169
00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:33,720
a lot like Keys, as a
whole, it looked too old to be

170
00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,279
Keys. He's drawn with a heavy
receding hairline. In the early stages of

171
00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:45,399
jowels. He looks closer to fifty
than Keys is twenty. The second safety

172
00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,799
report, however, piquked our interest. At approximately one thirty a m.

173
00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:55,279
On March thirty first, a female
college student in Beverwick Park, Washington Avenue

174
00:16:55,320 --> 00:17:00,360
between O'Leary and Ontario Streets was thrown
to the ground and her breasts were The

175
00:17:00,399 --> 00:17:06,480
assailant fled when the female student kicked
him. The victim described her assailant as

176
00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:11,960
a white male, approximately twenty five
years old, six feet tall, weighing

177
00:17:11,039 --> 00:17:17,319
one hundred eighty five pounds, brown
hair, wearing glasses, a dark shirt

178
00:17:17,519 --> 00:17:22,839
and cut off blue jeans. Beverwick
Park is just one block from the U.

179
00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:26,480
S. Army Reserve Center, and
Keys was in the midst of getting

180
00:17:26,519 --> 00:17:32,359
his necessary materials and documentation for army
recruitment at the time. In fact,

181
00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:41,599
he had just taken his mandatory ged
tests the week before. In that same

182
00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:48,079
pile of documentation reports and press releases
was a confidential memo from the University police

183
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:52,079
to the Office of Student Affairs,
and it stated the New York Police have

184
00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:59,319
suggested that miss Lyle may have never
come back to campus on March second.

185
00:17:59,559 --> 00:18:03,359
Most of the stories you hear about
Susie involve her disappearing between the bus and

186
00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:08,359
her dorm. However, in a
recent conversation, doctor Cuncle and I agreed

187
00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:14,359
that it makes more sense that Susie
would have disappeared from Crossgates Mall before ever

188
00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:18,160
making it on dooor bus back to
the campus. The distance between the campus

189
00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:23,799
bus stop and her dorm is incredibly
short and crowded. There are several high

190
00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:30,359
rise dorms looking over the space,
there's students everywhere and hardly any foliage coverage,

191
00:18:30,599 --> 00:18:37,599
particularly in early spring. While the
door that she exited Crossgate's Mall from

192
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:42,000
is heavily concealed in a dark corner
of the mall that's used for deliveries in

193
00:18:42,039 --> 00:18:48,119
employee entry and exit only, it
exits into an area concealed by a large

194
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,160
dumpster. And while I've come to
believe that that is most likely what happened

195
00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:56,000
that Susie was abducted leaving the mall. I'd never actually seen it. In

196
00:18:56,039 --> 00:19:06,480
writing that the police agreed, and
in the past few months we've come across

197
00:19:06,559 --> 00:19:12,839
sightings and reports potentially placing Keys on
fourteen different college campuses, in some cases

198
00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:19,279
multiple times by multiple people, in
a few of those cases actually living on

199
00:19:19,519 --> 00:19:25,240
or near campus for several weeks at
a time, and many of those sightings

200
00:19:25,319 --> 00:19:32,640
line up with attempted abductions on campus
or actual disappearances. Starting in nineteen ninety

201
00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:38,319
seven in San Francisco, around the
same time that Kristin Mota Ferry disappeared.

202
00:19:48,559 --> 00:19:52,480
Over the past year or so,
Kim Kay from the research team has been

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pouring over every online comment she can
find that mentions sightings of or encounters with

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Israel Kis. There are dozens,
and through them, two clear patterns have

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emerged, hitchhiking and college campuses.
The earliest one comes from a news segment

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covering his arrest, which was posted
to YouTube. One of the first comments

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was posted over ten years ago,
long before this podcast or any books or

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in depth media coverage of Keys.
It reads. I had a confrontation with

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him at UCSF Parnassus, where the
police report filed in nineteen ninety seven.

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There. I'm fairly certain it was
him. He was young, tall and

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thin. I recall a strange name
being Israel, who basically instigated a fight,

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spitting at me for no reason from
a bicycle on the UCSF Medical campus,

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saying I hate your type. I
knocked him off the bike. We

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began to squabble. He pulled out
what appeared to be a gun. I

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quickly backed up and ran out of
the place. Witnesses, however, reported

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to UCSF police and they caught him. He was mimicking his hand underneath his

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shirt as a gun. Nonetheless,
charges were pursued and he began to whine

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like a baby, so there would
be a record there of the incident.

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It was really odd, but the
images and documentary remind me so much of

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that incident. He was an evil
person trying to instigate conflict. I choose

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otherwise not to get involved, as
I am a very busy person. But

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someone may benefit from this information and
adding it to a timeline, but have

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my lead check to insure its accuracy. UCSF Parnassis Medical School Police, nineteen

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ninety seven ish. According to this
report and is listed age that would have

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been the time around or before his
first murder. We filed a FOYA for

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this police report in our waiting response. What immediately stood out to me Zo

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is that when Kristin Motiferi of the
NamUs forty five was last seen, she

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told a coworker that she was going
to take public transportation to Ocean Beach from

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the Crocker Galleria in downtown San Francisco. Depending on where on Ocean Beach she

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was going, she would have taken
one of two options, the Fulton five

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bus, which runs along Golden Gate
Park about half a mile from UCSF Parnassus,

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or the end Judah, which actually
stops at UCSF Parnassus. One other

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thing that makes this report stand out
is that the name of forty five wouldn't

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be released for close to a decade
later, so there was nothing publicly linking

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Kristin or San Francisco to Keys.
However, according to our records, he

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was in the Bay Area at least
four different times when this occurred. In

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or around nineteen ninety seven. Keys
would have been about nineteen years old and

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could have seamlessly ended in on a
college campus According to the timeline, Keyes

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would have been living in Mappin at
the time, with his parents living in

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Defer with all the other kids,
so he would have had no real oversight

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or accountability. This also would have
been around the exact same time as the

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Dushoots attack. Interestingly, we've recently
learned that Keyes had an uncle who owned

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and operated a transitional center in San
Francisco in nineteen ninety seven. We're still

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gathering information on where exactly that center
was and whether Keys would have visited his

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uncle there. The next set of
college campus sightings are the Sunny Albany sightings

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I previously mentioned, along with the
Marshall's encounter we all know well after that

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would be two encounters ten years apart
on or near Nassau Community College on Long

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Island. As you'll recall from the
previous episode, I mentioned the woman who

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believes she met Keys online and then
at a Starbucks, an encounter that she

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said was either September of two thousand
seven or two thousand eight. Well,

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in August of nineteen ninety seven,
a woman near by believes she was followed

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by Israel Keys after leaving a date
at one a m. The car followed

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her from the Highway off ramp all
the way to her apartment. She parked,

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but then immediately decided it was unsafe. But before she could pull out

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of the parking lot, the man
had exited his car and was standing at

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the driver's side window of her car. She started screaming and honking the horn.

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She tried to drive off, but
the man stood in front of her

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car, putting his hands on the
hood and telling her to get out,

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And then she mouthed the words I
will run over you, and she began

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to slowly push the man out of
the way with her car. He finally

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stepped aside, and she drove to
the closest gas station, where she alerted.

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She recalled that the man had left
his door open and car running during

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the encounter. She described him as
being six feet tall, with black hair

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and no facial hair. She said
he was driving a dark blue sedan with

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Massachusetts plates and wearing a sports coat. She called the FBI to report the

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incident after seeing a photo of Keys
on the news. She believed it was

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Keys who confronted her that night,
and the Keys family did own the Constable

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home at the time of this encounter. However, Keys didn't move in until

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October of nineteen ninety seven, but
we do know that he did make at

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least one trek out to that cabin
before moving in. As for the other

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Nassau Community College encounter, it's worth
noting that had it occurred in September of

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two thousand and eight we discussed September
of two thousand seven last episode, it

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would have happened at around the same
time that Kelly Sue Akronic disappeared on September

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thirtieth, just three and a half
hours away. Last year, we believed

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that we could rule Kelly Sue out
as a potential Keys victim based on construction

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in voices Keys had written. We
now know that's not the case. As

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we moved away from Nassau Community College
and further into time, the encounters got

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worse and started to occur in places
we all know very well by now.

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College campuses we've discussed at length Evergreen
State College, Saint Michael's College of Vermont,

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Western Washington University, the University of
Maine, just to name a few.

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But more on that next time.
As we've taken a step back to

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look at the big picture and take
into account all the new information we've gathered,

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we've realized more and more that we
have to deconstruct everything we thought we

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knew about Keys. We have to
break the model and then put it all

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back together again, because even we've
gotten stuck in perceived fact in pieces of

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mythology and our own deconstruction of the
mythology, and taking Keys at his word,

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in our own opinions of who Keys
was and what he was and wasn't

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capable of. And as it turns
out, maybe Keys was more meticulous than

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anyone gives him credit for. Meticulous, but human and prone to pattern,

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a man who went to great lengths
to cover his tracks, who was always

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thinking ahead, who lied more than
he let on. And the thing about

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liars, once you see one,
you start to see them all. It's

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all got a Birdlet's all gonna bread. What I want to check it fuck

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me is as once of my parents
and my pastor, nor ship the ship

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takes I got the pastors, lady, and the worst. It's all gonna

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bread us. GoodWork. This episode
was written, researched, edited, and

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00:29:14,319 --> 00:29:18,640
produced by me Josh Hallmark, with
additional research by Kim Kay and Shana Walensky

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and research assistants by Michelle Tucker and
Jordan Taylor. This episode was made possible

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00:29:25,279 --> 00:29:30,359
by the following Patreon producers Amelia Hancock, Amy Basel, Anette l Ashfish,

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00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,559
Benjamin Chopathong, Casey Jensen, Richardson, Drew Vipond, Hallie Reed, Jessica,

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Ali Hodzik, Gillian Natale, Kathleen's
tutor, Kendall Seed, Kimberly Klna,

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Lauren F Lindsay Curtis Lindsay Lucifer,
Lindley, tuscoff Manolas Bulacus, Nicole

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00:29:44,519 --> 00:29:48,079
and Dennis Henry, Sarah King,
s C. Shelley Brewer, Sherry d

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Tuesday Woodworth, Vicky Russell, Zach
Ignattowitz, Warren, Beth McNally, John

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00:29:52,319 --> 00:29:56,000
Comrae, Jordan Taylor, Sarah C
Shawna Harden, and Lydia Fiedler. Thank

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00:29:56,079 --> 00:30:03,559
you to Studio Both Anne's newest Patreon
supporter, Elizabeth F Rachel f Aaron A,

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00:30:03,559 --> 00:30:07,799
Alex M, Michael t, Melissa
B, Pam April, Crystal Lin

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00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:12,240
b, Jennifer Tina d JFK,
Danny h J Nolan, Joe m Less

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00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:18,519
and Misty D. To support the
investigation and get ad free episodes, go

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to Patreon dot com Slash Studio both
and this episode included music by William Healthier

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wife Seragei Cheramissinov, Dan Mayo,
and a quartos with featured music by Broken

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Social Scene Chidio. It's true,
I'm bound, Judo. I'll keep it

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up you, I'll keep it trust
I'm gonna take that, sad sack said,

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I shout no go to God.
So oh sa sa sa sa sho s s