WEBVTT 1 00:00:14.519 --> 00:00:20.160 All right, what's going on? Y'all. Welcome to another episode of Adventures 2 00:00:20.199 --> 00:00:24.440 in dev Ops. I'm your host Will Button, joining me my co host, 3 00:00:24.800 --> 00:00:29.000 Warren perad what's going on? Warren? Thanks? Well, back again. 4 00:00:29.640 --> 00:00:32.640 I you know, actually this week, I'm super interested in the topic 5 00:00:33.439 --> 00:00:37.600 that we have lined up because in the last few few weeks we've been dancing 6 00:00:37.640 --> 00:00:43.000 around different aspects of observability, and this is another flavor, and I just 7 00:00:43.079 --> 00:00:48.560 I have so many difficult questions I'm hoping our guests can answer right on. 8 00:00:48.880 --> 00:00:55.240 Speaking of our guest, Yeah, Roslin Whitley, director of product marketing for 9 00:00:55.439 --> 00:01:00.280 can Tick the network observability tool for even when the network is not yours, 10 00:01:00.280 --> 00:01:06.280 which is really cool. I think that's super cool, just because network observability 11 00:01:07.239 --> 00:01:11.319 has changed since the days of whenever I was racking firewalls and routers and configuring 12 00:01:11.439 --> 00:01:18.120 sn and P traps. Yeah, but welcome Roslyn. Happy to have you 13 00:01:18.159 --> 00:01:22.000 on the show. Oh my gosh, you said configuring sn MP traps. 14 00:01:22.040 --> 00:01:25.920 You didn't know those are the magic words for me for me to talk about. 15 00:01:26.239 --> 00:01:32.200 You've fallen into a trap sor that's hi. Thanks so much for having 16 00:01:32.239 --> 00:01:34.920 me on the show. Oh, I'm happy to have you here, and 17 00:01:34.040 --> 00:01:40.319 I'm looking forward to this because network observability kind of has become a black box, 18 00:01:41.040 --> 00:01:46.640 and we were talking about this before we went live here that you know, 19 00:01:46.680 --> 00:01:49.000 it's just something that's kind of abstracted away with your cloud provider, which 20 00:01:49.040 --> 00:01:55.719 you have a background in past services, so you're directly experienced with that. 21 00:01:56.120 --> 00:02:01.480 And you even mentioned that you know, some DevOps people these days actively avoid 22 00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:08.319 networking for just because of the complexity of it. So before we jump into 23 00:02:08.319 --> 00:02:12.439 that, give us a little bit about your background, about what you do 24 00:02:12.639 --> 00:02:16.560 and how you got there. Yeah, sure, thanks, I am, 25 00:02:17.080 --> 00:02:21.599 Yes, you already said my title. I am a director of product Marketing 26 00:02:21.719 --> 00:02:24.159 at Kentick, the network of our ability company, And it's been kind of 27 00:02:24.199 --> 00:02:30.800 an interesting, interesting journey to get to this place. I think being a 28 00:02:30.080 --> 00:02:38.280 being a marketer for a highly technical product requires a specific skill set, so 29 00:02:38.439 --> 00:02:43.800 lots of us do have interesting journeys getting to that point. And I what 30 00:02:44.000 --> 00:02:46.479 I was like a bit of a unique nerd when I was a little kid, 31 00:02:47.039 --> 00:02:53.159 Like my dad got me into like mostly Fedora, right, And for 32 00:02:53.240 --> 00:02:58.759 your dad, that's a parenting win right there. Totally, Well, yeah, 33 00:02:58.960 --> 00:03:02.400 hi, dad, that was a parenting went good job, and yeah, 34 00:03:02.639 --> 00:03:05.759 like he he got me into that. And also I kind of wasn't 35 00:03:05.800 --> 00:03:08.080 allowed to access the internet unless I could, like you know, do some 36 00:03:08.199 --> 00:03:14.159 basic like movements on my machine for a while, and I remember, like 37 00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:16.520 god, I remember like when I discovered flash video and then I was like, 38 00:03:16.560 --> 00:03:19.800 oh my god, I don't have the drivers for this, and I've 39 00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:22.879 spent like you know, hours and hours trying to get up the work. 40 00:03:22.919 --> 00:03:25.560 So definitely always more on the software side. I'm not I'm not a hardware 41 00:03:25.800 --> 00:03:30.560 nerd, and I would say, like I feel like some some deep shame 42 00:03:30.680 --> 00:03:34.240 about that. I just never never really got into it. That's interesting because 43 00:03:34.280 --> 00:03:37.479 it turned into like a I guess, a career, a career in software. 44 00:03:38.919 --> 00:03:42.560 There were some different points at which I was pursuing different things. I 45 00:03:42.599 --> 00:03:47.199 have a degree in English literature, but I ended up getting different jobs and 46 00:03:47.240 --> 00:03:51.800 like like I would be a secretary and I'd be like, your computer system, 47 00:03:51.879 --> 00:03:53.199 really it's really old and crafty, like, do you want me to 48 00:03:53.199 --> 00:03:57.960 fix it for you? And that turned into into a career in tech. 49 00:03:58.000 --> 00:04:02.520 It's been really interesting. In my first real job was first real proper type 50 00:04:02.599 --> 00:04:08.240 job, I would say, was yeah, being a being on the systems 51 00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:12.080 team and ultimately the team lead of the systems team at the University of New 52 00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:16.199 Mexico for Learning Management systems. So that's that was my sisidman job, and 53 00:04:16.240 --> 00:04:24.240 that's where I had the pager and I had to I graduated from Fedora to 54 00:04:24.360 --> 00:04:29.519 red Hat Enterprise Linux and uh, it was it was a fun journey. 55 00:04:29.560 --> 00:04:34.800 And then after that I really understood why, you know, why application delivery 56 00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:39.319 and software delivery was important and what what is this DevOps thing? That's when 57 00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:43.480 I found out about it. And even though I had played with Cloud a 58 00:04:43.480 --> 00:04:46.480 lot, so I also have a master's in Information Systems from Northwestern and when 59 00:04:46.480 --> 00:04:53.120 I was doing that remote a lot of remote classes for that, I was 60 00:04:53.199 --> 00:04:57.079 like, I don't I'm not a hardware nerd. I don't have a machine 61 00:04:57.480 --> 00:05:01.040 that I want to sort of build for this for this purpose. So what 62 00:05:01.160 --> 00:05:06.319 is this AWS thing? And that was like what twenty fifteen, so not 63 00:05:06.519 --> 00:05:11.959 like very early AWS days, but pretty early when everybody was just playing with 64 00:05:12.040 --> 00:05:15.160 it and hadup was really popular. Then she was also playing with that and 65 00:05:15.399 --> 00:05:20.240 like managing my own HADUPE clusters in AWS and trying to like find other people 66 00:05:20.279 --> 00:05:24.920 in the class who were trying to do it. But that was that was 67 00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:30.079 really interesting and then anyway, this is going to be a babble, a 68 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:35.800 babble past babble alert. But yeah, then I I started working at Puppet 69 00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:41.959 after that and had some some career in DevOps and ended up at Render, 70 00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:47.480 most recently working at working with really a totally different crowd of folks who want 71 00:05:47.560 --> 00:05:51.240 all of that to be abstracted away. And you're right, it's it's not 72 00:05:51.920 --> 00:05:59.879 just passed. Like I think, networking stuff is buried under layer after late 73 00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:04.399 of abstraction and we continue to like actually, was listening to one of your 74 00:06:04.439 --> 00:06:10.120 episodes of your podcast a couple of days ago about a virtual a virtual networking 75 00:06:10.160 --> 00:06:13.680 solution from twenty twenty one, and that was really interesting. But yeah, 76 00:06:13.759 --> 00:06:17.399 like we just we just abstract all the things, but the thing is like 77 00:06:17.600 --> 00:06:26.000 still underneath that kernel is still under there. And also all of these you 78 00:06:26.040 --> 00:06:30.560 know, TCP IP connections, everything is still talking to each other using a 79 00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:33.480 lot of the same protocols. We just have gotten to the point where you 80 00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:42.360 can be a principal engineer and not know what is going on. You know, 81 00:06:42.439 --> 00:06:46.399 you're you're eight layers of software abstraction deep, and you're not that deep 82 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:51.199 by old, Well, it's very deep. It's like things I don't understand, 83 00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:54.759 right, like a lot of the Kubernetes networking stuff, but like you're 84 00:06:54.800 --> 00:07:00.439 not you're not at that rudimentary layer. So what kent tig is really about 85 00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:05.319 is bridging that, Like, how how do you how do you get the 86 00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:11.000 observability in like, because the thing is like, nine times out of ten, 87 00:07:11.079 --> 00:07:15.480 you're fine having having only that visibility eight layers deep. You're fine and 88 00:07:15.519 --> 00:07:21.600 you know everything. But then once about every depending upon how much infrastructure you're 89 00:07:21.639 --> 00:07:28.600 managing, once every six weeks to six months, you're TCP dumping for hours 90 00:07:28.639 --> 00:07:33.560 and hours trying to understand what's going on because you have no clue what's wrong 91 00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:39.079 with your what's wrong with your infrastructure or why especially you know latency, why 92 00:07:39.160 --> 00:07:45.079 something is and not performing as people expect. So yeah, now that's what 93 00:07:45.160 --> 00:07:46.600 I work on. I was trying to tell you about my background, but 94 00:07:47.160 --> 00:07:49.839 it's, uh, yeah, it's it's a new challenge to be looking at 95 00:07:49.879 --> 00:07:57.319 this network observability thing, and observability is super important. So yeah, it's 96 00:07:57.399 --> 00:08:01.680 it's one of those things where it's it's only important when it's broken, right, 97 00:08:03.879 --> 00:08:05.680 Like otherwise you just don't care. And I think that's one of the 98 00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:11.680 hard parts, is like how do you know what what should I be monitoring 99 00:08:11.800 --> 00:08:16.639 or look recording ahead of time so that when this does break, I've got 100 00:08:16.759 --> 00:08:22.680 enough information to understand which part actually broke. The spoiler there is whatever you 101 00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:28.959 weren't recording, sure well. And then the tricky game with that too is 102 00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:35.360 like and I remember those days, like this one esoteric thing that you need 103 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:37.759 to be observing, Like next time, you're going to have that data, 104 00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:39.919 but that's not going to be the problem. It's going to be a different 105 00:08:41.000 --> 00:08:43.919 It's like whack a mole, right right, So it's good to have. 106 00:08:45.080 --> 00:08:48.679 And I think that's where that's where really the word observability comes in. It's 107 00:08:48.720 --> 00:08:54.559 like selling this fantasy that you're going to have all of the data all the 108 00:08:54.600 --> 00:09:00.639 time and then you'll just be able to look across with your crystal ball and 109 00:09:00.759 --> 00:09:03.799 observe it all. I think that's the dream, right, that's the dream. 110 00:09:05.399 --> 00:09:07.639 Oh yeah, You'll have like the big, the big TV screen up 111 00:09:07.639 --> 00:09:13.399 on the wall with the really cool looking diagram and when something goes wrong, 112 00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:16.639 then the right thing is just going to turn red for you and you'll be 113 00:09:16.679 --> 00:09:20.080 like, ah, yeah, I've got it. Oh my god. You 114 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:24.240 like we say that as a joke, but I've literally been asked for that 115 00:09:24.440 --> 00:09:28.720 buy an executive in a call, like I mean more than once. Yeah, 116 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:33.039 I've I've worked at startups where they set aside some of the money to 117 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:39.000 buy TVs to mount in the office just for that reason. I'm like, 118 00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:43.720 no, it doesn't really work like that. And today, like, does 119 00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:48.840 that mean you're buying each of your engineers an SR team or even in a 120 00:09:48.879 --> 00:09:52.360 product engineering team a monitor is stick on their walle at home so they can 121 00:09:52.440 --> 00:09:56.200 just glance, glance over it and see what the current state is. Oh 122 00:09:56.279 --> 00:10:00.879 myn my family would love that. It's dinner time, just like craving my 123 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:03.080 neck to look over there. Yeah. No, well, and actually that's 124 00:10:03.120 --> 00:10:07.519 what's That's what I really like about Kentick, though, is it's not really 125 00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:11.200 I mean, we we have great dashboards. They're all super customizable. You 126 00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:15.320 can put whatever you want on your dashboard and drag the widgets around and it's 127 00:10:15.399 --> 00:10:18.559 very very easy to customize it to make a dashboard that you want to use. 128 00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:20.919 But that's not that's not the core of our product at all. There 129 00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:28.399 needed right, Yeah, oh god, I aged myself talking about that. 130 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:35.000 But uh, which, hey, that's that's a badge of honor. I 131 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:39.320 never wall so I don't have I don't have that badge. But yeah, 132 00:10:39.480 --> 00:10:43.279 so I think what the core of our products is really what we call the 133 00:10:43.799 --> 00:10:50.039 data explore and the metrics explore, like exploring your telemetry is really what we're 134 00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:52.440 about. So yeah, like dashboards are cool. And once you've done your 135 00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:56.159 exploration, like after you had that incident where you figured out what you needed 136 00:10:56.159 --> 00:11:00.080 to look at to know what the problem was. Yeah, like, by 137 00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:03.799 all means, put that graph on your dashboard because if it's that again, 138 00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:05.879 then you're going to know and you're gonna be able to see the history. 139 00:11:05.120 --> 00:11:11.440 But really the power of our product is the ability to kind of explore because 140 00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:16.320 because what we're really talking about here is unknown unknowns, right Like that the 141 00:11:16.759 --> 00:11:22.679 unknown unknown is is that's the mill always the million dollar question. So if 142 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:30.919 you have the ability to ask questions really quickly, get the answer, get 143 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:33.799 the answer to anything that you need to know kind of in a visual format, 144 00:11:33.960 --> 00:11:37.440 be able to compare it, like compare you know, what's happening in 145 00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:41.159 the last five minutes to what happened in the last even maybe thirty days, 146 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:43.720 and you can kind of slice and dice that in a way that makes sense 147 00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:48.200 to you, and you can compare and put a lot of different because this 148 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:54.639 is like high cardinality data like network telemetry, there's a lot of attributes in 149 00:11:54.720 --> 00:11:58.840 that data set. And for Pentich, actually we add so our bread and 150 00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:03.440 by is well, where Kentic started was flow logs, right, So that's 151 00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:11.039 a traffic flow. Traffic analysis basically is was was where Kentick started. But 152 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:13.799 if you look at a raw flow log, there are a bunch of different 153 00:12:13.840 --> 00:12:16.759 kinds of flow logs in the cloud. We're talking about VPC flow logs, 154 00:12:18.039 --> 00:12:22.240 although they're also called different things but different cloud providers of course for prietory. 155 00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:28.600 But it's a little hard to make sense of the raw log. And that's 156 00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:31.080 another thing. I mean, it's not as bad as PCP dumping, but 157 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:35.519 people don't necessarily want to be like reading through flow logs, you know, 158 00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:41.840 one after another. But what we do is we enrich that raw log with 159 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:50.120 like application context like so things like tags for example, application names and a 160 00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:56.279 bunch of other network e stuff that I don't necessarily know a lot about, 161 00:12:56.360 --> 00:13:00.639 but so that you can understand kind of all of those layers and you have 162 00:13:00.799 --> 00:13:03.519 context, so you're never looking it's not like you're using Knick to look at 163 00:13:03.559 --> 00:13:07.720 the raw flolog or now we do metrics to from from cloud and from devices. 164 00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:13.279 We enrich that data as well, so you can kind of draw a 165 00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:18.000 line between between the different data points that you're trying to understand, and you 166 00:13:18.039 --> 00:13:20.120 can do those as a line graph or as a sand key, or you 167 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:22.480 can look at it in a table. Like there's a lot of different ways 168 00:13:22.519 --> 00:13:28.240 to visualize the data and understand it, and that's really where the power is 169 00:13:28.279 --> 00:13:31.360 because a dashboard back to the dashboard thing. A dashboard is like it's only 170 00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:35.600 as good as what you knew to put on the dashboard, right, and 171 00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:43.600 that is an there there was some kind of meme about being in sort of 172 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:48.120 a post dashboard dashboard fatigue. I think is there's some memes out there. 173 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:50.919 I can't think of them right now, but really, like, what what 174 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:54.799 you really want to do is explore the data and understand it like you want 175 00:13:54.840 --> 00:14:01.360 to you want to be able to find things and that quickly. I think 176 00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:05.440 that's really like observable. The promises of observability goes beyond the dashboard, and 177 00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:13.600 it's really about human It's about harnessing all the telemetry that you can to power 178 00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:20.279 your human brain. Like it's yeah, yeah, it's like there's all of 179 00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:26.559 this information that can quickly overload me. So just take everything that looks like 180 00:14:26.600 --> 00:14:31.440 it always has and ignore that and show me what changed. Yeah, yeah, 181 00:14:31.559 --> 00:14:37.759 show me what changed. Like an anomaly detection is definitely huge in our 182 00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:41.679 in our space because even if you and that's I think that's where we can 183 00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:48.080 make things more accessible to folks who don't have a ton of network engineering background 184 00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:52.080 or passion. It's like, I don't really need to understand the nitty gritty 185 00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:56.000 of what like of what's like what is different here? Just show me that 186 00:14:56.080 --> 00:15:00.320 it's different, and then I can dig into that and I can go and 187 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:05.039 I can understand that. Show tell me, right, But like that's our 188 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:09.720 job now, right, That's that's the truth. So so it's really nice 189 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:15.279 to be able to I guess the marketing term is democratize, uh, to 190 00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:18.519 kind of democratize access to network data and bring it into the bringing into the 191 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:24.720 twenty first century because a lot of the tools that are are used by by 192 00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:30.000 network engineering teams have been around for a long time and there because this is 193 00:15:30.039 --> 00:15:35.480 old, like this is old technology that hasn't necessarily changed that much at its 194 00:15:35.519 --> 00:15:39.559 core. So yeah, it's important to be able to have observability into all 195 00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:46.480 of these different environments like like your public cloud, like your past and all 196 00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:50.320 that. When or does in the process or do you see these tools being 197 00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:52.960 used? Like is it that there is some sort of alert or some problem 198 00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:58.159 in production my environment? And now I need to investigate further and I'm not 199 00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:00.879 even sure where to start. And then at that moment it's like, well, 200 00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:03.440 you know, while it's so great that I had this tool that was 201 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:07.399 already ingesting all of my VPC flow logs, and I'm going to it and 202 00:16:07.879 --> 00:16:11.759 reading through what's there, and the anomaly detection runs and tells me about some 203 00:16:11.799 --> 00:16:15.440 sort of network issue. Is that the sort of flow that you think about? 204 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:19.919 Here? It depends because yeah, good question there. Kentik is a 205 00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:26.600 platform and we have a few different kind of products in there, and so 206 00:16:26.840 --> 00:16:30.159 yes, but high high level yes, there are alerts. So if I 207 00:16:30.360 --> 00:16:37.799 have a faulty device or a device that's having software hardware problems, then I 208 00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:42.000 can get an alert on that I have all my devices onboarded. So that's 209 00:16:42.039 --> 00:16:47.759 like in the data center, right it similarly in the cloud, I can 210 00:16:47.799 --> 00:16:52.639 set alerts on different thresholds. Is actually alerting is very complicated in itself because 211 00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:56.759 there are different kind of schemes for what would trigger an alert, and alert 212 00:16:56.799 --> 00:17:00.600 fatigue is also also a mean and me something you've probably talked about on the 213 00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:06.559 show. So it's important to have a sophisticated ability to set the alerts and 214 00:17:06.680 --> 00:17:11.799 kind of fine tune what is actually on fire and what's not. So we 215 00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:17.599 certainly have that capability for all the types of environments that we provide observability into. 216 00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:22.400 And but so what I've seen, we work with a lot of big 217 00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:26.720 enterprises, and I have heard like, hey, the network team gets called 218 00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:30.960 into every single incident. So every time there's an incident, someone from the 219 00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:33.640 network team is on the call and they need to be. They may get 220 00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:38.599 a question of like, you know, this application stack is experience. It 221 00:17:38.599 --> 00:17:45.079 seems like it's experiencing latency and what you know, what is it? And 222 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:49.880 the classic question is like is it the network? And there's even like this 223 00:17:51.000 --> 00:17:55.240 sort of idea of the meantime to innocence, which I'm sure you've heard of 224 00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:00.359 I'm trying to resolve themselves of responsibility. But I think that's real because they 225 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:03.519 really do get called into every incident, and then you know, what percentage 226 00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:07.920 of the time is it the network? Probably not that great of a percentage 227 00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:11.119 of the time, But I think what where we're at now, is that 228 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:15.680 even when it's not even when I'm doing air quotes but you can't see them 229 00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:21.559 on the pods, not the network. I think the network engine you can 230 00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:26.799 provide insight into because right we're we're in like the world of micro services and 231 00:18:26.119 --> 00:18:33.599 definitely distributed computing. So if I've got traffic going from one service to another 232 00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:38.519 and then the traffic's not going from the next service to the next service, 233 00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:44.279 like, that's information that I can use to understand and zero in on, 234 00:18:44.599 --> 00:18:48.720 like I don't know, Yeah, this this weird, this weird presentation layer 235 00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:52.200 thing is like getting hung up, and here's where it's happening. So I 236 00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:57.519 think, yeah, But the tools also get used for other stuff like capacity 237 00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:03.160 planning. Capacity thing is really important in because right we're not just about incidents, 238 00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:08.599 we're also about you know, providing reliability and resiliency. That that's also 239 00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:17.160 our job. These days, and and and like latency is sort of the 240 00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:21.279 new outage sometimes, I think. So it's not just about like about promoting 241 00:19:21.319 --> 00:19:26.079 availability, but also like making sure that performance is what your customers expect all 242 00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:29.160 the time. We all have very high expectations for that. So anyway, 243 00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:33.440 capacity plane is really important. So understanding like if I do have in my 244 00:19:33.559 --> 00:19:40.599 hybrid cloud infrastructure, if I do have you know, data data requests are 245 00:19:40.599 --> 00:19:45.880 traveling across a cloud interconnect pipe we call it a pipe, then I want 246 00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:48.960 to know, like what's the capacity of that pipe? Am I filling it 247 00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:52.400 up? Like when am I filling up at surges? How do I manage 248 00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:57.480 And different kinds of different kinds of gateways like in the cloud, for example, 249 00:19:57.680 --> 00:20:03.920 have different uh different properties and different performance that I can get out of 250 00:20:03.960 --> 00:20:07.559 those and kind of how I set everything up. I'm always balancing cost with 251 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:14.680 performance to make sure that folks are gonna get get the get the performance that 252 00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:18.160 they expect at a cost that I can afford. So that's and and and 253 00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:23.759 Because people don't necessarily know very much about networking, even when they're designing workloads 254 00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:27.319 in the cloud, they may have something set up, like with a transit 255 00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:32.759 gateway when or And actually you can see in Kentick, you can look at 256 00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:37.640 things on a map and see like how the traffic is traveling, and sometimes 257 00:20:37.640 --> 00:20:38.880 you're like, oh, it's going out there and then it's coming back in, 258 00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:41.680 Like why is it doing that? Sometimes it might be doing that for 259 00:20:41.720 --> 00:20:45.880 a reason, like it's a it's a firewall thing, But other times it's 260 00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:49.680 just the way that some that some dude set it up, and you can 261 00:20:49.759 --> 00:20:55.319 change that and you can realize performance gains and cost gains from that. So 262 00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:59.640 that's like another place where the tools get get used. Beyond kind of a 263 00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:04.160 learning, it's also about being proactive. I feel like you kind of called 264 00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:10.319 me out there because that was my that's my incident response run book is blame 265 00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:12.960 the network team, and I know it's probably not THEMN, but it at 266 00:21:14.039 --> 00:21:18.160 least buys me time to figure out what's really going on while they're trying to 267 00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:21.440 prove their innocence. Yeah, because that's not a fast thing to do, 268 00:21:21.559 --> 00:21:23.359 right, you know, it's like how do I how do I absolve myself 269 00:21:23.440 --> 00:21:27.640 of culpability? Here is quite the challenge. No, it's true, but 270 00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:33.480 hey, I think like I've I've been there, So that's why I can, 271 00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:36.559 I can. I've never been a network engineer, so I was always 272 00:21:36.680 --> 00:21:38.720 calling, you know, I got an issue with my one of my applications, 273 00:21:38.759 --> 00:21:44.960 I'm calling the network team. And they managed our virtualized infrastructure, so 274 00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:51.000 all of the the sphere sort of infrastructure. So I think, probably what 275 00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:53.599 were they doing when I was calling them, They're like restarting this restarting this 276 00:21:53.799 --> 00:21:57.960 node just to see if it's the problem and watching it fill over, and 277 00:21:59.000 --> 00:22:02.839 so yeah, well they were doing that. I was just, yeah, 278 00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:08.079 desperately like repping through logs and trying to look for a pattern, right because 279 00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:12.960 it could come back on me. For database administration stuff, it was always 280 00:22:14.599 --> 00:22:18.119 it was always fun for me when it was the database because I was also 281 00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:21.519 secretly kind of wanted to be a DBA and study that in school. So 282 00:22:21.640 --> 00:22:25.240 I would be much more of an active partner like I would be, and 283 00:22:25.640 --> 00:22:29.200 I think there was more more information, Like in my application logs, I 284 00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:32.680 could find stuff. I could find, you know, Oracle errors or my 285 00:22:32.759 --> 00:22:37.279 SQL errors that would that would be like smoking gun material. And then I 286 00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:41.240 would go and do these extended kind of research into what was going on because 287 00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:45.680 I could I cared about kind of how they were implemented on the application side 288 00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:48.119 and what the interplay was so so that was I was more of an active 289 00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:52.680 partner on that before the network I was exactly like you weren't just like all 290 00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:56.519 right, uh yeah, like like all of us right, I think we're 291 00:22:56.519 --> 00:23:02.039 all on the same boat. It's like you need that network engineer when you 292 00:23:02.039 --> 00:23:07.079 need them. Real I got so scared, what uh you mentioned the DBA 293 00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:10.839 thing because I feel like there was a non triven number of times where a 294 00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:12.160 DVA DIDs down and be like, oh you know what, we know what 295 00:23:12.279 --> 00:23:15.359 was going on, and we ran something and it fixed it. And I'm 296 00:23:15.400 --> 00:23:25.519 just like I don't want that to be the answer. Oh yeah, because 297 00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:26.440 you want to, you want to be the hero. But then the thing 298 00:23:26.599 --> 00:23:33.880 is the alternative. The alternative is potentially that like if it really is your 299 00:23:33.319 --> 00:23:37.519 problem, your problem on the application layer that you or you know, even 300 00:23:37.559 --> 00:23:44.480 the OS layer was for in my book, in my experience, like if 301 00:23:44.519 --> 00:23:47.599 it really was my fault, it probably literally was my fault, like it 302 00:23:47.640 --> 00:23:51.759 was some kind of typo that I had made during an upgrade months before. 303 00:23:52.039 --> 00:23:53.759 And then like I go in there and I find like, oh god, 304 00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:57.160 like there's a carriage return there that's bad. And then I mean, do 305 00:23:57.200 --> 00:24:02.200 you really want to be explaining that. Probably not, I'm amazing. I 306 00:24:02.279 --> 00:24:04.920 feel something about it for me that feels justifiable, though, Like I could 307 00:24:04.920 --> 00:24:07.759 be like, hey, look there's a typo here, clearly that's causing the 308 00:24:07.799 --> 00:24:11.119 problem, and you know, my change and everyone can look at that. 309 00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:14.680 But when there's a problem on the network side or on the database side, 310 00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:18.880 and there's an issue there and it gets resolved somehow, I know having been 311 00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:25.240 on the other side so frequently that I honestly could not grock what they're telling 312 00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:29.400 me, Like what the what the fix was adding extra nodes or replacing them 313 00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:33.599 or something about the routing is very difficult to understand. It's true, and 314 00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:37.839 you wonder, you wonder, like is this going to be another sleepless night, 315 00:24:37.880 --> 00:24:40.599 Like is this going to happen again? Because sometimes we would have that. 316 00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:42.319 It would happen once and they would be like, we fixed it, 317 00:24:42.359 --> 00:24:45.559 we ran this thing, or we restarted this thing, and then like two 318 00:24:45.599 --> 00:24:51.440 weeks later it happens again and this time it's faster. They fix it. 319 00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:55.200 But yeah, no, you're right, I get it. It's I mean, 320 00:24:56.920 --> 00:25:00.720 this is all it's all part of the thing, and you're talking about 321 00:25:00.839 --> 00:25:04.599 root cause analysis, and I think like what we talk about a lot at 322 00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:10.160 Kentig is sort of this holy grail, and that is you know, I 323 00:25:11.119 --> 00:25:14.359 how far are we into the conversation. We're twenty four minutes, twenty five 324 00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:17.839 minutes into the conversation for the record, and I am going to utter the 325 00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:22.000 phrase AI, right was going to come up. I can't believe I got 326 00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:26.640 twenty five minutes into this call without uttering the phrase AI. But yeah, 327 00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:33.599 but look our live subscribe account just went up to yeah. But I mean, 328 00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:37.759 really, that's that's the that's the magic, right if you can get 329 00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:41.640 something that can do some of that for you and say, hey, that's 330 00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:45.880 probably it. Why do you check this and let me say it like that. 331 00:25:45.960 --> 00:25:52.839 It's not I do not think that we are close to having a distributed 332 00:25:52.000 --> 00:26:00.920 computing experience where an AI, you know, an AI bought can say it's 333 00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:03.880 this, I'm going to fix it now. That's not what it is. 334 00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:07.400 It's really about like that that bot still has to talk to Tier three, 335 00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:11.839 right, Like we are still tier three and we need to be able to 336 00:26:11.880 --> 00:26:15.000 look and see. But it's really just about making that faster and saying, 337 00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:18.240 hey, there, you know there is a carriage return here in this script 338 00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:25.160 and there shouldn't be, and if you fix that, it'll probably it'll probably 339 00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:32.279 resolve this. I think that's kind of the that's the that's what everyone's sort 340 00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:36.079 of working towards right now. And I think different different companies are different to 341 00:26:36.519 --> 00:26:42.000 our are further along and different certain disciplines. It's easier to get get further 342 00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:45.079 along because automation has been part of it for a long time, so it's 343 00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:48.839 easier to kind of get there. But for us, where we are at 344 00:26:49.079 --> 00:26:52.319 is if I, you know, I say, we can answer any question 345 00:26:52.400 --> 00:26:56.279 about your network, the networks you own or the networks that you don't. 346 00:26:56.880 --> 00:27:02.000 That's true. And now we have a quick your assistant, and we have 347 00:27:02.039 --> 00:27:08.920 an interface called Journeys that allows you to essentially have a chat GPT like session 348 00:27:10.039 --> 00:27:12.680 with Kentich where you say, hey, you know, compare the bandwidth like 349 00:27:12.839 --> 00:27:19.599 on on on these devices over the last month and show me or or you 350 00:27:19.640 --> 00:27:23.920 know, what are my what are my top consumers? You can ask any 351 00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:27.599 kind of questions, show me that my devices that are in this region and 352 00:27:27.640 --> 00:27:32.160 what are the status of all of them? And sort them by you know, 353 00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:36.079 you can do all of that and and instead of doing it in our 354 00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:41.880 guy, in our guy data exp like I was describing earlier, where you've 355 00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:45.119 got to, you know, find all the attributes that you care about and 356 00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:48.519 check them all. When you have like such high cardinality data and you have 357 00:27:48.599 --> 00:27:52.640 like a heavy ability to manipulate it, it's a lot of checkboxes. It's 358 00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:56.039 a lot. It's kind of a lot to look at, and it's hard 359 00:27:56.039 --> 00:28:03.920 to create a UI that feels really easy to use. But I think the 360 00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:11.039 the chat, the natural language natural language query of facility really helps us like 361 00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:17.160 do that data democratization right, because you know you will. You're afraid of 362 00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:19.160 the network, but you probably know what kind of question you have. You 363 00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:25.279 could start asking, and then the query assistant in the journey especially, you 364 00:28:25.279 --> 00:28:27.359 can look back and see, like what questions did other people ask, because 365 00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:32.000 like we said, sometimes it's the same thing again that happens, right, 366 00:28:32.039 --> 00:28:36.000 So if you want to go back and look at what query's folks made before 367 00:28:36.079 --> 00:28:41.200 and what the so they started with this question, but they finished their session 368 00:28:41.480 --> 00:28:45.200 and they answered the question here at the end. That was what really led 369 00:28:45.240 --> 00:28:48.240 them to understand what was going on. You can look back through that and 370 00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:53.200 see you know what was that root cause essentially, and then I think the 371 00:28:53.240 --> 00:29:00.519 next step of that for us is suggesting what questions to ask next, suggesting 372 00:29:00.519 --> 00:29:03.119 what the root cause might be. You know, when this problem shows up 373 00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:07.759 a lot of times, here's the answer. So that's what we are working 374 00:29:07.799 --> 00:29:14.599 towards. Yeah, and I think you said before it's about finding the unknown 375 00:29:14.680 --> 00:29:18.640 unknowns, and I feel like that may be something where AI helps us a 376 00:29:18.680 --> 00:29:22.799 lot there in discovering those. And I'm sort of curious if any interesting things 377 00:29:22.839 --> 00:29:26.599 have already popped out that wouldn't have been so obvious either if you were looking 378 00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:32.240 at the dashboards yourself or had to create the queries yourself, because that sort 379 00:29:32.279 --> 00:29:36.000 of goes in the long lines of I already sort of know what the problem 380 00:29:36.039 --> 00:29:37.640 is, but I want the data to prove it. And I think there 381 00:29:37.720 --> 00:29:42.200 is this challenge of well, I don't even know where to start. Give 382 00:29:42.279 --> 00:29:45.720 me something, you know, suggest to me something, and maybe I'll pull 383 00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:52.160 at that instead. Yeah, we definitely have kind of a splash page with 384 00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:55.920 a bunch of sample a bunch of kind of sample queries on it, so 385 00:29:56.039 --> 00:29:57.640 you can just click and get started, like, Okay, I'll jump into 386 00:29:59.079 --> 00:30:02.880 jump into this and vestigation. I don't know if I have any stories of 387 00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:07.319 like the the unexpected of findings, but that's a really good one too. 388 00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:11.000 I mean, we were talking a little bit about marketing. That's a really 389 00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:14.440 good one to dig up. I think this is like, you know, 390 00:30:14.799 --> 00:30:17.960 how long would it have taken you to figure out that this is the problem 391 00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:22.200 or how long would it have taken you to observe this difference? I think 392 00:30:22.279 --> 00:30:27.559 I would say for kent Tick though, there are a lot of very talented 393 00:30:27.559 --> 00:30:32.039 network engineers who have been using Kentick to dig into their flow and their metrics 394 00:30:32.079 --> 00:30:36.079 for quite quite some time. So I would I would hesitate to say that 395 00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:38.680 AI can find anything that they can't find, because I think like a super 396 00:30:38.759 --> 00:30:47.759 user of kent tick is still far more powerful than an AI bought of kentig. 397 00:30:48.079 --> 00:30:53.400 But together, like together they can be unstoppable. The idea, Yeah, 398 00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:57.079 but I will look for that. And so that's one of the areas 399 00:30:57.160 --> 00:31:03.400 where something like kentik and can help out. Because we've talked about how what 400 00:31:03.480 --> 00:31:07.200 we talked about how like you know, some of us have like really not 401 00:31:07.799 --> 00:31:10.680 putting myself in this group, but there are people who have like really really 402 00:31:11.160 --> 00:31:17.640 deep, long areas of expertise, and you know, like as I get 403 00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:19.319 older, I kind of feel like that's more and more of my job is 404 00:31:19.359 --> 00:31:26.759 to distill what I've done over the last thirty years so that people entering the 405 00:31:26.839 --> 00:31:30.200 industry right now don't have to relearn all of that stuff. And I think 406 00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:33.839 that's one of the things that like companies like Kentick do is it's like, 407 00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:40.079 hey, based on all of this stuff that you don't know about, here's 408 00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:44.000 this thing that you might want to google. Yeah, yeah, no, 409 00:31:44.119 --> 00:31:48.160 I think that that's that's going to be. That's going to be where this 410 00:31:48.359 --> 00:31:52.960 really has legs. I mean, it's really nice to be able to explore 411 00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:56.920 the data in natural language and you can ask it in any language you want. 412 00:31:57.039 --> 00:32:00.640 So that's helpful even for like to sell folks on your team as we 413 00:32:00.759 --> 00:32:05.200 get globalized. So I think there's like a lot of power just in the 414 00:32:05.400 --> 00:32:10.079 entry level of equery assistant. But yeah, where there where the where I 415 00:32:10.119 --> 00:32:16.440 start to drop my AI skepticism in earnest is where it can say like, 416 00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:23.960 yeah, you you are you know, because like we said, if it's 417 00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:28.640 a different problem every time, you really do have to work on this for 418 00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:31.440 twenty years to see like a full range of of what it could be. 419 00:32:31.559 --> 00:32:37.559 And for these folks who are dealing with you know, heterogeneous infrastructure where they 420 00:32:37.640 --> 00:32:42.440 may have some really old legacy applications that they're maintaining or you know, we 421 00:32:42.440 --> 00:32:45.480 call them legacy applications. They have some applications that are still working, still 422 00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:49.680 making money, and they don't want to change anything because and the bosses don't 423 00:32:49.720 --> 00:32:52.400 want to change anything, right, And then they have all this new infrastructure 424 00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:58.319 that's getting built and they're they're running workloads on Kubernetes and this, so they've 425 00:32:58.319 --> 00:33:02.079 got containerized stuff and they're also doing serverful stuff and they need to like keep 426 00:33:02.119 --> 00:33:06.440 track of all of that. How can you hold the context of all of 427 00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:09.480 that in your mind? And I think that's way beyond what any of us 428 00:33:09.559 --> 00:33:15.000 who were kind of doing things in the old days. I think it's very 429 00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:20.279 different now. I think that they have a lot more context to keep track 430 00:33:20.319 --> 00:33:22.799 of. So what I'm really happy to hear you say that will that that 431 00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:30.119 that's your goal is to help them. It's essentially a shortcut, right right. 432 00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:35.880 Yeah. When I think about like old school OPS culture and definitely old 433 00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:39.960 school like Linux culture, it's a bit you're smiling. You're smiling. You 434 00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:44.200 know what I'm going to say, Right, it's not that it's not that 435 00:33:44.680 --> 00:33:47.480 it's not the most welcoming environment, or it wasn't I should say it wasn't 436 00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:52.400 the most welcoming environment. Yeah, I think it was a lot of Like 437 00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:54.440 I mean, you can it's all over stack overflow if you want to go 438 00:33:54.519 --> 00:34:00.599 to stack over It's like people are like, I can't belie leave you would 439 00:34:00.599 --> 00:34:07.039 post that, like, you know, people very rudely explaining how it's just 440 00:34:07.880 --> 00:34:13.039 unacceptable to post such a question without posting your entire you know, and like 441 00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:15.760 don't post your entire log trace in here, like to cut cut through, 442 00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:20.119 like show me that you did the research yourself, right, you try to 443 00:34:20.199 --> 00:34:25.559 understand this yourself and then I will help you. And that there's really like 444 00:34:25.639 --> 00:34:32.039 a tension between that cause I think that that definitely, like the potentially discourage 445 00:34:32.360 --> 00:34:37.880 meant of asking questions is of course also part of old school network engineering culture. 446 00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:40.719 There's a lot there's a lot of similarity there, and I think it's 447 00:34:40.719 --> 00:34:45.599 really the same culture. And then there are but there are people like yourself 448 00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:51.719 who want to benevolent folks who want to pass along that knowledge and kind of 449 00:34:51.760 --> 00:34:55.000 be greater than the sum of our parts. So as a as a marketer, 450 00:34:55.320 --> 00:35:00.519 I feel like I have to sort of appeal to like I have to 451 00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:08.000 appeal to that culture that that where credibility and like doing the legwork is really 452 00:35:08.119 --> 00:35:13.920 valued and really important. But at the same time, like I mean, 453 00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:16.719 the the boss doesn't really want to pay for the legwork if it doesn't need 454 00:35:16.760 --> 00:35:20.679 to be done. If your pains or your talent, then you want to 455 00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:22.760 get you want you want that talent to spread around the team. You don't 456 00:35:22.760 --> 00:35:28.039 want to be siloed into one person. And then also there's this new I 457 00:35:28.039 --> 00:35:34.599 think. I think Kubernetes was a huge part of that sort of transformation from 458 00:35:34.719 --> 00:35:37.360 the from the old culture that you were talking about to the new culture. 459 00:35:37.400 --> 00:35:42.440 I think the way that the Kubernetes community like came up and then was managed 460 00:35:42.920 --> 00:35:45.480 has been a huge part of that. Do you think so are there other 461 00:35:45.599 --> 00:35:50.719 other factors? Like why why are those answers not on stack overflow, not 462 00:35:50.719 --> 00:35:52.840 not getting on stack overflow as much anymore? Like what's changed? I guess 463 00:35:52.880 --> 00:35:58.159 my question. I feel like right around the time that Kubernetes came out, 464 00:35:58.199 --> 00:36:01.800 there was like a pretty significant shift of people. There was like enough people 465 00:36:02.840 --> 00:36:09.559 who found each other online that were tired of that type of response, and 466 00:36:10.199 --> 00:36:15.199 I think it came together in several areas, Kubernetes being one of those. 467 00:36:15.239 --> 00:36:17.840 But one of the things that continues to make me laugh is whenever they said 468 00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:23.480 that chat gpt was trained using stack Overflow answers, I was like, oh, 469 00:36:23.559 --> 00:36:29.800 this should be good, I mean, great, brilliant, but also 470 00:36:29.960 --> 00:36:34.559 wow, chat doesn't ever scold me. Though I don't think I've ever been 471 00:36:34.599 --> 00:36:39.920 scolded by chat GPT. I mean, I think maybe not chat gpt itself, 472 00:36:39.960 --> 00:36:45.880 but I do recall some of the other lms giving responses through some of 473 00:36:45.880 --> 00:36:51.800 the other websites that may have been using the same underlying model about that they 474 00:36:51.840 --> 00:36:54.440 were wrong to ask the question, and then when saying like it, and 475 00:36:54.480 --> 00:36:58.719 there was a whole back and forth about it, and really just over and 476 00:36:58.719 --> 00:37:00.840 over again saying no, no, you have no idea what you're talking about, 477 00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:06.800 even though clearly like everyone knows that the person that was chatting was right, 478 00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:12.000 but the blot was definitely confused. You actually said something super interesting that 479 00:37:12.039 --> 00:37:15.440 I don't want to gloss over, is that potentially the problems that are being 480 00:37:15.519 --> 00:37:21.880 solved today are actually more challenging, they require more contact than they did in 481 00:37:21.920 --> 00:37:24.480 the past. And I sort of want to pick your brain on that a 482 00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:29.239 little bit, because that seems like it's really interesting that maybe it's possible that 483 00:37:29.400 --> 00:37:31.559 the problems today are more complicated, are more difficult to solve, and that 484 00:37:31.639 --> 00:37:36.639 we won't be able to do it with the same tools that we've been utilizing 485 00:37:36.719 --> 00:37:39.119 up to this point. Yeah, I mean, I think I think to 486 00:37:39.199 --> 00:37:47.480 clarify there, maybe the individual problems themselves are still like when you do know 487 00:37:47.559 --> 00:37:53.840 what the root cause is, maybe that root cause is no more sophisticated in 488 00:37:53.960 --> 00:38:00.440 nature than like a problem of your But I think what makes it, what 489 00:38:00.559 --> 00:38:05.519 makes it more challenging, is just the I mean, we're talking about cardinality 490 00:38:05.559 --> 00:38:08.639 of data, and it's really it's kind of it's just like the volume of 491 00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:15.920 different like the probability that it would be any one thing is so much lower, 492 00:38:15.239 --> 00:38:21.840 I think because of the distributed nature of our systems. But then it 493 00:38:21.920 --> 00:38:25.360 is also it is also when we talk about like things things, when I 494 00:38:25.400 --> 00:38:30.960 talk about things being so software defined, I think that also adds another So 495 00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:36.880 maybe there is more complexity introduced by like the programmatic nature of so many things, 496 00:38:37.159 --> 00:38:40.960 so you can have like like is this really a problem with a thing 497 00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:45.199 that I'm trying to manage, or is it a problem with like the way 498 00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:50.719 that the thing that I'm trying to manage is accessible or is administered. So 499 00:38:50.920 --> 00:38:54.239 I think there's just all of those layers, add add more automation, but 500 00:38:54.320 --> 00:39:00.440 then also add like the potential for failure. And I think part of it 501 00:39:00.480 --> 00:39:07.000 is also because are we ever using things exactly as they were intended? Like 502 00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:10.079 when you design a product, when you design a tool or a platform, 503 00:39:10.840 --> 00:39:16.760 or design a piece of infrastructure, you're oftentimes thinking about doing it, you 504 00:39:16.760 --> 00:39:22.000 know, in a specific context. And then when you take those things out 505 00:39:22.039 --> 00:39:30.400 into the wild again heterogeneous plan they're trying to they're trying to kind of put 506 00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:36.719 it all together, right, trying to trying to connect connect things together and 507 00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:43.480 integrate different systems. And that's where I mean, those are like the longest 508 00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:47.440 Googling sessions, Right. You try to you try to, like you try 509 00:39:47.480 --> 00:39:51.400 to interface one thing with another, and you think it's You're like, well, 510 00:39:51.400 --> 00:39:52.559 this could go one of three ways, Like it could be super easy, 511 00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:55.360 the exact way I think that you're supposed to do it. It could 512 00:39:55.360 --> 00:39:59.360 be like this middle way where I have to try a few things, but 513 00:39:59.400 --> 00:40:01.639 it's one of these answers that are on the internet, or it could just 514 00:40:01.679 --> 00:40:05.639 like fail kind of silently and I don't know why it doesn't work, And 515 00:40:05.679 --> 00:40:07.280 then I'm kind of stuck and I have to figure out like do I need 516 00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:10.239 to figure out a different way to integrate these together? Like is this not 517 00:40:10.280 --> 00:40:13.360 going to work? I need to figure out when to cut over and give 518 00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:15.599 up. And I think there's there's just more of that now, right, 519 00:40:15.679 --> 00:40:20.639 Like they're more potential for that for that to come up. I would you 520 00:40:20.679 --> 00:40:23.559 agree? Yeah, I mean I think you really hit on something with the 521 00:40:23.639 --> 00:40:28.639 volume, where in the past just the number of requests you'd have to any 522 00:40:28.679 --> 00:40:31.400 individual service is such a low number. With the number of users you have, 523 00:40:31.440 --> 00:40:35.199 that's still providing a ton of value. You could go through the logs 524 00:40:35.199 --> 00:40:37.880 manually, right, you know, you think about your own operating system, 525 00:40:37.239 --> 00:40:42.239 you can go to the cystlog and see what's there or whatever you're using and 526 00:40:42.320 --> 00:40:45.599 actually see what applications crash and what the log message are, you know, 527 00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:49.599 if you're debugging locally. But when you talk about the production systems now today 528 00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:53.000 in twenty twenty four, yeah, I mean you're not going through that manually. 529 00:40:53.800 --> 00:40:58.519 Now. I think we're at a point now where the level of abstraction 530 00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:04.559 is so high that it's really really fine line between whether we are software engineers 531 00:41:04.719 --> 00:41:08.960 or whether we're Rube Goldberg engineers. Were integration engineers for sure, one hundred 532 00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:14.119 percent. Well, you know you're right there on that. Like most of 533 00:41:14.119 --> 00:41:16.880 the things, most of the time year spending out there is connecting components together 534 00:41:17.079 --> 00:41:20.960 to deliver the value. You're not designed. I mean, you could be 535 00:41:21.039 --> 00:41:23.920 on the cutting edge of designing the new silicon or even the LM model today, 536 00:41:23.960 --> 00:41:27.760 but like lots of companies have spun up your building on top of that, 537 00:41:27.840 --> 00:41:31.320 which is hundreds of layers of abstraction. Deep. Yeah, and if 538 00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:35.440 it's not working, it is that thing of like not knowing where to start. 539 00:41:35.519 --> 00:41:37.239 I can't let it pass that, you said, Rube Goldberg, Rube 540 00:41:37.239 --> 00:41:42.599 Goldberg machine. When I worked at Armory. When I worked at Armory, 541 00:41:42.639 --> 00:41:46.480 which was a proprietary distribution of US spin Occur, the continuous delivery tool developed 542 00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:52.280 at Netflix. I was there. What was I? I was director of 543 00:41:52.360 --> 00:41:55.719 open source and really like an open source DevRel person, and I had this 544 00:41:55.840 --> 00:42:02.039 brilliant idea that we would buy this. The culture there was very like pend 545 00:42:02.119 --> 00:42:06.039 money on the things that invest in the things that you think would be good 546 00:42:06.039 --> 00:42:07.519 for the company, and like you're empowered to do that. I was like, 547 00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:12.679 I feel empowered to build a very large roof Goldberg machine and you are 548 00:42:12.719 --> 00:42:16.079 going to cart this thing out to every event, Like we're gonna go to 549 00:42:16.199 --> 00:42:21.079 AW. This is going to be our big AWS reinvent bid where we have 550 00:42:21.079 --> 00:42:23.559 a giant rube Goldberg machine and then we do demonstration. I still think that 551 00:42:23.599 --> 00:42:27.679 would be fun. Now somebody's going to listen to this and lift that idea 552 00:42:27.960 --> 00:42:30.599 who has a much bigger budget than I do. But you know, it 553 00:42:30.679 --> 00:42:34.639 really is about it really is a Goldberg machine, like it really is, 554 00:42:34.880 --> 00:42:37.400 And that would be great to go to AWS or reinvent or whatever and just 555 00:42:37.440 --> 00:42:42.360 see a big, huge roobe Goldberg machine. It just goes all the way 556 00:42:42.440 --> 00:42:45.199 up to the ceiling of the auditorium. Yeah, and then it's like, 557 00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:50.360 ah, I mean probably this is canceled. Maybe, but like I think 558 00:42:50.360 --> 00:42:55.400 about Pee Wee Herman and the opening where he's making his breakfast and the egg 559 00:42:55.480 --> 00:43:00.679 comes in this thing. What I'm telling you marketing gold marketing goal that, 560 00:43:00.239 --> 00:43:04.719 but it really that was kind of the message. It's so funny because if 561 00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:07.480 the message was the same there, it's like we have all these sort of 562 00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:14.440 riddle we called it brittle. It's another marketing term, like your brittle path 563 00:43:14.559 --> 00:43:19.239 to production sort of how we talked about it. And sometimes it really does 564 00:43:19.320 --> 00:43:22.719 feel like a rut Boldberg machine. And I think, I think when I'm 565 00:43:22.760 --> 00:43:27.199 looking at that from the observability perspective, it's really the same visualization. It's 566 00:43:27.199 --> 00:43:32.079 like, yeah, you have this bespoke way that each one of your applications 567 00:43:32.440 --> 00:43:39.320 is getting these very basic communications across like to and from the user and and 568 00:43:39.400 --> 00:43:46.760 getting the data and making getting getting in you know, doing the the the 569 00:43:46.840 --> 00:43:52.639 crud on the data in a way that's secure. And there's actually a lot 570 00:43:52.679 --> 00:43:58.119 that goes into that. But really, like it does feel like a root 571 00:43:58.159 --> 00:44:00.239 Bulber machine, I think. But it's all was still the same stuff. 572 00:44:00.280 --> 00:44:08.320 So it's just interesting how it's more it's it's more more abstraction over what are 573 00:44:08.360 --> 00:44:13.239 fundamentally the same types of interactions. But but what has changed a lot is 574 00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:16.199 the user experience. Right, Yeah, for sure, we've gotten the entire 575 00:44:16.239 --> 00:44:22.639 planet addicted to an impeccable user experience and that's that, and we can never 576 00:44:22.679 --> 00:44:24.679 come back from that. We now we get it. I wish that were 577 00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:29.239 the case, but I still feel like I see some UIs every every day. 578 00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:34.760 That made question who is running UX over at that any government website? 579 00:44:35.119 --> 00:44:40.480 Oh yeah, well yeah, that's all I mean, government healthcare. It's 580 00:44:40.519 --> 00:44:45.599 like yeah, and it's but it's actually like it makes me think about So. 581 00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:52.079 I once interviewed with a company that made software for planes and they told 582 00:44:52.119 --> 00:44:58.199 me about the sort of the I I ended up not taking not taking this 583 00:44:58.360 --> 00:45:01.480 job, but it was really interesting and they were like, we have been 584 00:45:01.559 --> 00:45:07.360 we are such a like pioneering company in this space because we've figured out that 585 00:45:07.760 --> 00:45:12.800 if we can run the software on a tablet, like we can run the 586 00:45:12.880 --> 00:45:16.840 software on an iPad, then we're able to get around so much regulatory stuff 587 00:45:16.920 --> 00:45:22.559 because but the PSA has rules or no that at Federal Aviation Administration has all 588 00:45:22.599 --> 00:45:28.679 these rules about what is physically bolted to the plane. So if something is 589 00:45:28.840 --> 00:45:35.159 physically connected to the plane, then it has to go through literally years of 590 00:45:35.199 --> 00:45:42.119 like safety safety and regulatory process to check to make sure that it's safe. 591 00:45:42.519 --> 00:45:46.559 But if your software system is not physically connected to the plane and you can 592 00:45:46.599 --> 00:45:51.000 like lift it off. Then they didn't have to go through the same regulatory 593 00:45:51.039 --> 00:45:52.719 procedure. And I thought that was so fascinating that they were like, that's 594 00:45:52.760 --> 00:45:58.800 why airplane systems are so far behind, because they are not, like they 595 00:45:58.880 --> 00:46:01.159 can't. So if you want want to change the UX right, it's going 596 00:46:01.239 --> 00:46:06.519 to take you like five years. So that's why I think that for government 597 00:46:06.559 --> 00:46:07.679 stuff. But I don't know. I think for government all a lot of 598 00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:10.880 times they just don't put the money into it, and they don't it's just 599 00:46:10.920 --> 00:46:14.280 not a priority. Well I mean, I mean, I think we know 600 00:46:14.360 --> 00:46:16.280 that there is definitely money going into it. It's just you know where the 601 00:46:16.280 --> 00:46:25.360 mondy is going is it's an episode on its own. It probably a watch 602 00:46:25.400 --> 00:46:29.920 list somewhere if we have. Yeah, I just maybe that's a bad topic. 603 00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:32.559 You know, I've worked in a lot of different industries that have varying 604 00:46:32.599 --> 00:46:37.840 degrees of regulation. There is definitely something to be said about the amount of 605 00:46:37.880 --> 00:46:44.239 regulation and the length of the feedback loop for improvements, for sure. Yeah, 606 00:46:44.760 --> 00:46:46.400 yeah, I think that's that's part of it. But but yeah, 607 00:46:46.480 --> 00:46:51.519 you said people aren't addicted to great, Well, people are addicted to great 608 00:46:51.599 --> 00:46:55.480 UX but you still have to find it right to go and find those tools 609 00:46:55.480 --> 00:47:00.400 and platforms that have that that have the space that you want. I don't 610 00:47:00.440 --> 00:47:05.079 know. I think if I think about though, like how much things have 611 00:47:05.239 --> 00:47:12.920 changed in the last decade in terms of just what could like what consumer expectations 612 00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:15.639 are, I think, uh, I think it has changed a lot, 613 00:47:15.679 --> 00:47:17.360 and I think a lot of people have worked really hard on making that happen. 614 00:47:17.519 --> 00:47:22.800 So it's pretty cool, yeah, for sure. I mean we are 615 00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:34.599 very much in a position where our expectations are you know, millisecond latency from 616 00:47:34.840 --> 00:47:39.320 from applications, and for the most part, I feel like our expectations are 617 00:47:39.599 --> 00:47:44.800 rarely not met when it comes to that, and that's a huge amount of 618 00:47:45.400 --> 00:47:51.599 effort. And under the cover's work, you know that you can hit a 619 00:47:51.719 --> 00:47:54.320 vast majority of the websites and you you click the button and it makes a 620 00:47:54.320 --> 00:48:01.719 call to the back end API and returns the data and in a millisecond time 621 00:48:01.840 --> 00:48:08.719 frame, and tying that back to what you're doing. The layers of networking 622 00:48:08.840 --> 00:48:16.440 that are happening there is just really tough to visualize, much less troubleshoot whenever 623 00:48:16.519 --> 00:48:23.639 it does breach that one hundred millisecond threshold. I'm not breaking anyone understanding here. 624 00:48:24.440 --> 00:48:30.360 There is actually some resource posts that the research says that the more effort 625 00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:34.880 that a user puts in to having an action executed, the longer they actually 626 00:48:34.880 --> 00:48:38.320 expect to wait. And if you respond too fast, that they'll feel like, 627 00:48:38.360 --> 00:48:44.239 wait, I don't understand how could that be the case? So like 628 00:48:44.280 --> 00:48:51.079 this actually does happen. So we internally actually especially in r UIs for authors, 629 00:48:51.440 --> 00:48:54.480 we do actually measure the amount of expectation for the effort that a user 630 00:48:54.519 --> 00:48:58.679 should have to put in for those things and figure out like what is their 631 00:48:58.719 --> 00:49:01.480 expectation going to be for how long that activity takes if they expect that thing 632 00:49:01.519 --> 00:49:05.599 to happen really fast, and those make it into our slas. And for 633 00:49:05.679 --> 00:49:09.000 things that actually seem like they're super complicated, well there is a little bit 634 00:49:09.039 --> 00:49:13.039 of fudging that we have to do there is to make it seem like that 635 00:49:13.559 --> 00:49:17.039 they get the appropriate thing, Like there are intentional weights in some situations to 636 00:49:17.119 --> 00:49:21.480 make because it's too fast, you know, we respond in like one millisecond, 637 00:49:21.480 --> 00:49:23.000 they're like, I don't understand how it can be that fast. That 638 00:49:23.039 --> 00:49:25.760 doesn't seem right, So you make it wait a little bit longer, and 639 00:49:27.519 --> 00:49:30.320 like it also has a UI impact though too, because if you make an 640 00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:32.920 action in the page would refresh or something like that, afterwards, you don't 641 00:49:32.920 --> 00:49:37.440 have any time to say, hey, your thing was successful. So actually 642 00:49:37.559 --> 00:49:43.519 delaying that has a much better user experience than just immediately performing the next thing 643 00:49:43.559 --> 00:49:46.800 in some circumstances. That is really interesting. So that's really like we're almost 644 00:49:46.880 --> 00:49:53.280 hitting the threshold or something like hating the threshold of human like human computational power 645 00:49:53.400 --> 00:49:59.039 or something. I'm going to have to reach out to my buddy on our 646 00:49:59.079 --> 00:50:06.320 product team who have been working with who is putting out our network monitoring system. 647 00:50:06.559 --> 00:50:08.960 So network monitoring systems, you, I don't know if you fuse them. 648 00:50:09.079 --> 00:50:12.760 You may have used some of the free ones like Libra and MS. 649 00:50:12.800 --> 00:50:16.880 Everybody has one. An everybody with an on premise network device of any kind 650 00:50:16.880 --> 00:50:20.199 has some kind of thing that's going to tell them if it's up or down 651 00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:25.480 right, and they almost all network monitoring systems are really old and crufty, 652 00:50:25.639 --> 00:50:31.079 like they're your federal website version of a tool. And that's like, actually, 653 00:50:31.119 --> 00:50:37.079 so we put out this new network network monitoring system that we released at 654 00:50:37.119 --> 00:50:40.639 the end of January and it does have it. It has the query as 655 00:50:40.679 --> 00:50:45.039 system that I talked about before built in. But it's really interesting to try 656 00:50:45.039 --> 00:50:51.159 to write marketing copy for this and figure out how to sell it to people, 657 00:50:51.239 --> 00:50:53.920 because really what we're selling is like you know, no, no, 658 00:50:53.920 --> 00:50:59.199 no, we haven't really like yes we have we have like a data explore 659 00:50:59.280 --> 00:51:02.559 metrics explorer that lets you explore all these unknown unknowns we have AI. It's 660 00:51:02.599 --> 00:51:09.360 a SaaS tool and that's all exciting, but also under the covers it's doing 661 00:51:09.599 --> 00:51:13.960 the same thing. It's pulling your devices to find out if they're up or 662 00:51:13.960 --> 00:51:15.440 down. But anyway, one of the you just made me think about one 663 00:51:15.480 --> 00:51:20.119 of the things we talk about as a selling point is browser refresh is not 664 00:51:20.280 --> 00:51:24.599 required. So like we're literally like selling that it's a responsive uh, that 665 00:51:24.639 --> 00:51:30.800 it's a responsive app. So if my if my device gets if I'm onboarding 666 00:51:30.800 --> 00:51:36.199 a new device and I'm waiting for it to finish and then it and then 667 00:51:36.239 --> 00:51:38.119 it comes up, that's just going to happen. I don't have to refresh 668 00:51:38.159 --> 00:51:42.719 the page. But really, so going back to our conversation constantly, going 669 00:51:42.719 --> 00:51:46.079 back to our conversation about incident, if you have if you think about a 670 00:51:46.199 --> 00:51:52.519 network person trying to like they they it was the network, right, They 671 00:51:52.599 --> 00:51:59.480 figured out that it was this device that was that that was heaving a problem 672 00:51:59.719 --> 00:52:04.760 that was had a hardware or a software problem usually and they go to fix 673 00:52:04.840 --> 00:52:07.360 it, like they go log into the device and reset it or something or 674 00:52:07.480 --> 00:52:12.400 change threshold, and then they have you have to wait to see if it 675 00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:15.480 works, right, like before you can go back to flee or go back 676 00:52:15.480 --> 00:52:17.039 to your regular job. But we all sometimes before you can go back to 677 00:52:17.039 --> 00:52:20.480 sleep, you have to see if it works. And so we have this 678 00:52:20.559 --> 00:52:22.440 image and I really want to make an ad for this of just someone just 679 00:52:22.519 --> 00:52:27.400 like refreshing the page, refreshing the page, refreshing the page, and they're 680 00:52:27.440 --> 00:52:30.599 looking to see like for that change. So I think it's definitely a fine 681 00:52:30.639 --> 00:52:34.400 line, Like you're right, it could be too fast, but there are 682 00:52:34.400 --> 00:52:37.440 a lot of systems out there that are nowhere near too fast. And we're 683 00:52:37.519 --> 00:52:40.440 so. But it's funny because my colleague, my PM colleague is like, 684 00:52:42.079 --> 00:52:44.599 I'm like, you know, we're got to saw that it's a SaaS tool, 685 00:52:44.639 --> 00:52:47.760 and I think I put on a I put on something the other day 686 00:52:47.880 --> 00:52:51.760 SaaS Innovation and he was like, don't say that you know, SAS has 687 00:52:51.760 --> 00:52:54.360 been around for a long time. I know, I know that, but 688 00:52:54.480 --> 00:52:58.760 it really is innovative in this space. So it's just it's funny. I 689 00:52:58.840 --> 00:53:01.880 think the point here is like it's all relative, right, But it is 690 00:53:02.119 --> 00:53:07.199 nice when you need to use a tool, like you have a tool like 691 00:53:07.239 --> 00:53:10.039 a like an NMS and you've got something like you've got to monitor those devices, 692 00:53:10.079 --> 00:53:15.280 it's nice to have a it's nice to have a platform that doesn't make 693 00:53:15.360 --> 00:53:20.559 you feel like you're living in you know, I don't know what you're two 694 00:53:20.599 --> 00:53:25.039 thousand and four that may be even still too recent. I mean you made 695 00:53:25.039 --> 00:53:30.599 me think of like every router software that that like not only do you need 696 00:53:30.639 --> 00:53:34.320 to wait, but it tells you do not refresh the page because if you 697 00:53:34.400 --> 00:53:38.280 do, like I am afraid that it will brick itself. It's gonna it's 698 00:53:38.280 --> 00:53:43.119 gonna somehow lose your request it refresh the page. Yeah, it was like, 699 00:53:43.199 --> 00:53:45.920 what what is it doing? Is it? It's just like, what 700 00:53:45.920 --> 00:53:47.599 what is it doing? Honestly? Like and then it tells you if like 701 00:53:47.599 --> 00:53:52.280 another admin logs into the router at the same time, like I'm sorry, 702 00:53:52.360 --> 00:53:55.119 only one admin can be logged in at this time. It's like Okay, 703 00:53:55.239 --> 00:53:59.239 I mean fine, just tell me just me read only mode that right, 704 00:53:59.280 --> 00:54:00.760 like you know, let me see the data, but don't change it for 705 00:54:00.760 --> 00:54:04.920 whatever reason. No, totally, So you can see how this has been, 706 00:54:05.079 --> 00:54:10.800 like the this has been like selling a network monitoring system in twenty twenty 707 00:54:10.800 --> 00:54:16.039 four. Is it just about the un sexiest task that a technical marketer could 708 00:54:16.039 --> 00:54:20.199 have, right? Like it is not Like we are not and like you 709 00:54:20.199 --> 00:54:23.719 you mentioned SNMP traps at the beginning, we actually came out with this tool 710 00:54:23.760 --> 00:54:29.840 and we're like we we're not gonna support SNMP traps because you know, it's 711 00:54:29.920 --> 00:54:34.039 UDP and it's not very secure, and we were were a little uncomfortable with 712 00:54:34.079 --> 00:54:37.239 that. But as we've gone out into the field to talk to folks about 713 00:54:37.239 --> 00:54:42.599 this tool, and we've onboarded like some huge enterprises into using this tool, 714 00:54:44.039 --> 00:54:46.320 and we've found people out there in these conversations who are like, well, 715 00:54:46.599 --> 00:54:51.559 I'm using SNMP traps extensively and it's essentially but like you know why they're doing 716 00:54:51.599 --> 00:54:57.360 it because it's event Like it was really really really early implementation of essentially like 717 00:54:57.519 --> 00:55:00.559 event based monitoring. So the device has an event and it can go, 718 00:55:00.679 --> 00:55:04.599 oh hey, I'm having a problem like that was cool, right, and 719 00:55:04.639 --> 00:55:07.679 it still is cool and a lot of people are really relying on that, 720 00:55:07.800 --> 00:55:12.599 but for us to come out and say, well, sorry, that's too 721 00:55:12.719 --> 00:55:15.559 crafty, like we are not we are not going to support that because we 722 00:55:15.599 --> 00:55:17.159 do not try like we can't do that. So we have to build the 723 00:55:17.159 --> 00:55:20.280 support. We have to build the support, and we have to find a 724 00:55:20.320 --> 00:55:27.800 way to build it in a way that will that will be that we that 725 00:55:27.920 --> 00:55:30.920 we can feel like it's secure enough to give over to our customers, but 726 00:55:31.000 --> 00:55:34.840 they can feel like it fits into their workflow. So anyway, that's a 727 00:55:34.920 --> 00:55:37.039 that's a digression from like the browser refresh thing, but I think there's a 728 00:55:37.039 --> 00:55:42.440 lot too like that. It's been a fun marketing challenge to try to to 729 00:55:42.519 --> 00:55:45.599 try to market this tool that's been around for it's been around for twenty five 730 00:55:45.679 --> 00:55:49.840 years, right. I mean we actually did something very similar in our space 731 00:55:49.960 --> 00:55:55.360 for so we offer off for oursas and we started by saying, no, 732 00:55:55.480 --> 00:56:00.360 we're not going to have passwords support by default, like the this is this 733 00:56:00.400 --> 00:56:04.360 is absolutely technology. It's insecure by design, there's no there's no fixing that. 734 00:56:04.480 --> 00:56:07.519 And we wanted the B two B market and it's been fine. Uh, 735 00:56:07.679 --> 00:56:09.519 it was fine for a very long time, and then we started getting 736 00:56:09.519 --> 00:56:14.519 customers who wanted to go into B two C and have end users that didn't 737 00:56:14.519 --> 00:56:19.760 a sophistication. And so we've created a clear separation in both marketing and how 738 00:56:19.800 --> 00:56:22.440 our docs are written to be clear like, hey, if you're in the 739 00:56:22.440 --> 00:56:24.880 B two B context, like you really don't want to use this, like 740 00:56:25.119 --> 00:56:28.760 look at the research. It's going to tell you why, there's no reason. 741 00:56:28.760 --> 00:56:30.559 And if you're in B two C, you know, maybe there's not 742 00:56:30.559 --> 00:56:32.800 anything you can do about that. Yeah, no, I think that, 743 00:56:34.440 --> 00:56:37.880 Oh gosh, this is the worst term. But they call that thought leadership, 744 00:56:37.960 --> 00:56:42.519 right, you're educating, educating your customer. That's what really makes me 745 00:56:42.519 --> 00:56:45.920 want to bar But I hear people say every day that's the worst. But 746 00:56:45.000 --> 00:56:47.360 anyway, No, you're educating your customers about like, hey, you know, 747 00:56:47.840 --> 00:56:52.519 and I think I think that's valuable. I think I think technical folks, 748 00:56:52.559 --> 00:56:55.119 like when you're shopping for a when you're shopping for a product, you 749 00:56:55.239 --> 00:56:59.920 do want to know that the vendor that that that the vendor you're working with 750 00:57:00.119 --> 00:57:02.480 is opinionated about the right way to do things and has really thought about that 751 00:57:02.519 --> 00:57:06.360 at scale and looked at how other people are doing it, like you want 752 00:57:06.400 --> 00:57:09.679 those best practices because again, when you're trying to navigate this through Goldberg machine, 753 00:57:10.039 --> 00:57:14.199 there's a lot there and you don't necessarily know what the best practices are 754 00:57:14.239 --> 00:57:15.679 for everything, and like everything else, you got to google that and you 755 00:57:15.719 --> 00:57:19.599 know, and it's good to have a trusted source for that. So I 756 00:57:19.599 --> 00:57:22.440 think that's the right way to I think that's the right way to handle that's 757 00:57:22.480 --> 00:57:24.360 just be really honest about it, no, for sure, because otherwise you 758 00:57:24.360 --> 00:57:28.800 don't really have a differentiator, right, Like anyone can write the technology that 759 00:57:28.880 --> 00:57:32.000 you don't see the service that's running. Anyone can hire the right people with 760 00:57:32.159 --> 00:57:36.480 enough time and effort and you know, maybe even get funding. I mean, 761 00:57:36.599 --> 00:57:38.159 like where do you differentiate, right, It's going to have to be 762 00:57:38.239 --> 00:57:43.960 on the way your company mindset or values really really operate. Yeah, it's 763 00:57:44.000 --> 00:57:47.599 really what's left there. Yeah, totally all right. And so that's a 764 00:57:47.639 --> 00:57:52.679 great segue into the topic that I wanted to talk about here because a lot 765 00:57:52.679 --> 00:57:59.440 of that, you know, you're talking about implementing a cultural change, you 766 00:57:59.440 --> 00:58:02.519 know, like the S and MP traps. Like someone who says, hey, 767 00:58:02.559 --> 00:58:07.039 these S and MP traps have been rock solid, reliable for me for 768 00:58:07.159 --> 00:58:10.119 twenty five years. Why am I going to change? And so you have 769 00:58:10.199 --> 00:58:17.760 this this change that you have to implement which goes into marketing. And I 770 00:58:17.800 --> 00:58:24.079 really think that that's like an unspoken skill that successful engineers have, is the 771 00:58:24.119 --> 00:58:31.639 ability to understand marketing and know how to introduce these topics and like convince people 772 00:58:31.800 --> 00:58:38.320 to your line of thinking. So with your background, Roslyn, your role 773 00:58:38.559 --> 00:58:45.639 is marketing to technical people. So how do you you know, for just 774 00:58:45.199 --> 00:58:49.760 at the risk of saying something stupid, because that's kind of my role here, 775 00:58:50.400 --> 00:58:54.280 how do you make your marketing content nerdy enough to be believable? Yeah, 776 00:58:54.400 --> 00:58:58.519 No, that's a great that's a great question. I think where it 777 00:58:58.880 --> 00:59:01.280 starts is you really have to have the right and I mean not I'm not 778 00:59:01.320 --> 00:59:05.800 saying I'm the I'm necessarily the right person, but you you have to have 779 00:59:05.960 --> 00:59:09.239 We have a whole content team actually of people who are like, Okay, 780 00:59:09.400 --> 00:59:14.360 if you're a network engineering nerd, which you're not, you'll know Doug Madori, 781 00:59:14.400 --> 00:59:17.000 who whose director on our on our content team, who is like gets 782 00:59:17.079 --> 00:59:23.320 called by the NSA and by other federal, federal and international agencies to do 783 00:59:23.480 --> 00:59:31.360 like tracing traffic, uh for like to help with global like geopolitical stuff, 784 00:59:31.440 --> 00:59:36.800 like he's the one who goes and looks and understands what what Russia is doing 785 00:59:36.840 --> 00:59:43.519 with the networks in Ukraine and so uh that's an extreme example, but we 786 00:59:43.559 --> 00:59:49.199 have a variety of like folks who were in the field, like we're we're 787 00:59:49.320 --> 00:59:53.079 kind of wearing the wearing the shoes of our customer and those are the people 788 00:59:53.079 --> 01:00:00.519 who write all of our blog posts and they sort of promote the brand and 789 01:00:00.679 --> 01:00:07.440 me, so I I sort of had some shoes that look like, you 790 01:00:07.480 --> 01:00:10.440 know, look like I had some systems engineering shoes at one point. They're 791 01:00:10.480 --> 01:00:14.480 still in my closet, but I don't wear them very often anymore. And 792 01:00:14.519 --> 01:00:16.800 you know, like those skills go away. So but with someone like me, 793 01:00:17.000 --> 01:00:22.320 like I, I write what I'm gonna write, like I write what 794 01:00:22.320 --> 01:00:27.320 I'm going to communicate to customers about a product, and then a lot of 795 01:00:27.360 --> 01:00:31.519 times I will So I mentioned my product manager colleague working on that network monitoring 796 01:00:31.639 --> 01:00:37.320 tool. He also had his sort of network engineering shoes that he put away 797 01:00:37.400 --> 01:00:44.000 much more recently, and then he worked at a very prominent network monitoring company 798 01:00:44.000 --> 01:00:46.280 before he came to Kentick, So he's really like just like dug into the 799 01:00:46.320 --> 01:00:51.920 space and he is like my sounding board for all this marketing stuff, and 800 01:00:51.960 --> 01:00:55.280 we really we call it go to market, like we we collaborate on stuff 801 01:00:55.320 --> 01:01:00.840 together. So I think it's really about you mentioned like an an engineer who 802 01:01:00.840 --> 01:01:05.400 has the skill of understanding marketing and being able to communicate that across to their 803 01:01:05.440 --> 01:01:08.280 team and bring folks along. That's really important. And I think that's the 804 01:01:08.360 --> 01:01:14.480 skill that when you're working on marketing in a B to B company for a 805 01:01:14.559 --> 01:01:17.119 highly technical product, which I have now done at a bunch of different companies, 806 01:01:17.559 --> 01:01:22.280 Like cross functional collaboration is the name of the game if you can get 807 01:01:22.480 --> 01:01:25.440 because you've got your people in the field right, especially if you're working at 808 01:01:25.480 --> 01:01:29.400 a company that sells to enterprises and it's a bigger thing. I think this 809 01:01:29.559 --> 01:01:31.599 was different for me at Render because we were more of a a B to 810 01:01:31.639 --> 01:01:35.679 B company, but a bit more of a direct to consumer model because people 811 01:01:35.719 --> 01:01:39.159 just go on to Render or Forroku and they like set up their services and 812 01:01:39.199 --> 01:01:43.280 they're sort of self serving. So that was a bit of a different model. 813 01:01:43.280 --> 01:01:45.760 But now I'm back in this sort of enterprise selling model. Where you 814 01:01:45.840 --> 01:01:52.239 have your sales folks and specifically sales engineers and solutions architects who go out into 815 01:01:52.320 --> 01:01:57.480 the field and they're knee deep in those customer problems like they're inside the root 816 01:01:57.559 --> 01:02:02.519 Goldberg machine trying to help the cutomer find their way out, and so they 817 01:02:02.519 --> 01:02:08.360 really can see like those themes. So sometimes having some of those people react 818 01:02:08.440 --> 01:02:12.639 to your work, but it's for that, it's more like listening. So 819 01:02:12.800 --> 01:02:17.840 I go on to our gong calls, like I listen to their conversations with 820 01:02:17.880 --> 01:02:22.719 our customers. I listen to the words that customers use to talk about their 821 01:02:22.760 --> 01:02:27.159 problems, and I look for patterns, right, and then when I think 822 01:02:27.199 --> 01:02:30.559 I've found the patterns, then I take those two my product manager colleagues or 823 01:02:30.679 --> 01:02:35.840 my or my my colleagues on the content team who are more technical than I 824 01:02:35.880 --> 01:02:37.320 am, and I say, hey, like, how does this land with 825 01:02:37.360 --> 01:02:40.760 you? And sometimes it lands really well, and sometimes they have ideas, 826 01:02:40.760 --> 01:02:44.880 and then I got a massage those ideas. But then what's interesting about it 827 01:02:44.920 --> 01:02:47.440 is like, so we just came across this with a product that we're well 828 01:02:47.480 --> 01:02:51.679 really all all of our products trying to work towards this, Like you have 829 01:02:51.800 --> 01:02:55.480 your I call it practitioner messaging, and then you have your buyer messaging, 830 01:02:57.239 --> 01:03:00.519 and they're different, but also in our feet, well they're not that different 831 01:03:00.559 --> 01:03:05.920 because most of the buyers used to be practitioners. And there's that credibility thing 832 01:03:06.039 --> 01:03:09.320 we talked about, that line of like credibility I think is still really important 833 01:03:09.320 --> 01:03:14.599 in our field, and like you can't be a buyer for a highly technical 834 01:03:14.599 --> 01:03:17.719 system and like run a highly technical team if you don't if you if you 835 01:03:17.760 --> 01:03:22.719 don't, if you don't like demonstrate that those shoes are still in your closet, 836 01:03:22.039 --> 01:03:27.920 I think you kind of need to like have that badge. So I 837 01:03:27.920 --> 01:03:30.719 guess my short answer to your question, which this is not short at all, 838 01:03:30.480 --> 01:03:35.039 never is with me, but my short answer is like having those having 839 01:03:35.079 --> 01:03:37.199 had those shoes in my closet, and like I call on that, I 840 01:03:37.239 --> 01:03:39.599 call on that a lot. I play that card a lot. Like that's 841 01:03:39.800 --> 01:03:44.920 a I think critical to like my ability to be in this role. But 842 01:03:44.960 --> 01:03:50.960 it's also important to like bridge that with the higher level sort of value messaging. 843 01:03:51.519 --> 01:03:54.559 And you mentioned like that bringing people engineers, having a skill of bringing 844 01:03:54.599 --> 01:03:58.199 people along. I think that's a skill to give them too. It's be 845 01:03:58.320 --> 01:04:01.239 like you know this is really technical, and you're in the weeds and you 846 01:04:01.320 --> 01:04:04.000 really like this solution and I want to sell it to you, but you 847 01:04:04.039 --> 01:04:08.280 need to get budget for this solution, and you need to explain like how 848 01:04:08.320 --> 01:04:11.119 it's going to impact your bottom line. There's really only a few ways that 849 01:04:11.199 --> 01:04:14.920 can Like there's really only a few ways to sell a product to a buyer. 850 01:04:15.000 --> 01:04:17.760 Right, It's either going to save you money, or it's gonna save 851 01:04:17.800 --> 01:04:21.639 you time, which is ultimately going to save you money, or it's going 852 01:04:21.679 --> 01:04:27.880 to give you a better, a significantly better end user experience, which is 853 01:04:27.880 --> 01:04:30.519 going to make you more money. So it's really just all about the money. 854 01:04:30.559 --> 01:04:34.880 And like helping them understand that, I think is really like helping them 855 01:04:35.039 --> 01:04:39.800 understand and giving them I mean, they understand it, but that's that's condescending, 856 01:04:39.840 --> 01:04:45.440 But like giving them what they need to be able to communicate that in 857 01:04:45.480 --> 01:04:48.960 a way that they feel like doesn't make them want to barf. I think 858 01:04:49.000 --> 01:04:55.079 that's another like thing that a that a technical product marketer does is like empowering 859 01:04:55.440 --> 01:05:00.320 people to be a champion. Right, Yeah, so like one the once 860 01:05:00.440 --> 01:05:05.920 they have signed off on a technical solution, giving them the tools to make 861 01:05:06.079 --> 01:05:12.119 the financial case yeah, yeah, like once you've got because with Kentick, 862 01:05:12.239 --> 01:05:17.760 like people are I think we definitely have had sort of a what I would 863 01:05:17.760 --> 01:05:24.079 think of as a bottom up sales motion in that like network engineers freaking love 864 01:05:24.159 --> 01:05:28.599 can take Like there are network engineers out there and we have this where like 865 01:05:28.639 --> 01:05:30.559 we'll have a we started in the service provider market, so we have a 866 01:05:30.639 --> 01:05:34.079 ton of customers in the service provider market, and a lot of network engineers 867 01:05:34.119 --> 01:05:40.039 will work at a service provider and then they'll switch over to enterprise and different 868 01:05:40.119 --> 01:05:43.760 challenges. But there's a lot of the big enterprise are basically running big enterprises 869 01:05:43.760 --> 01:05:48.079 are basically running their own service provider internally to meet their network engineering demands. 870 01:05:48.320 --> 01:05:51.639 And so we'll have people who switch over and if they've used Kentic before, 871 01:05:51.719 --> 01:05:57.360 like they're going to want to use it again. So that helps. And 872 01:05:57.840 --> 01:06:00.639 like you have to have both right, Like you have to yet you have 873 01:06:00.679 --> 01:06:03.559 to get the practitioners to fall in love with your product and want to use 874 01:06:03.599 --> 01:06:06.719 it, and it has to be sticky. But then you also have to 875 01:06:08.599 --> 01:06:11.599 make a business like you have to be able to make a business case for 876 01:06:11.639 --> 01:06:14.440 it because otherwise you end up like I mean, I said, I worked 877 01:06:14.440 --> 01:06:18.119 at Puppet Puppet, you know, sad story used in so much of the 878 01:06:18.480 --> 01:06:21.599 ninety percent of the fortune five hundred or something like that, and they were 879 01:06:21.639 --> 01:06:25.679 never really able to monetize it. And Docker is the same story. Right, 880 01:06:26.079 --> 01:06:30.400 we still use Docker everywhere, but they couldn't make money off of that 881 01:06:30.440 --> 01:06:32.760 because they didn't make that business case. And I think that's I mean, 882 01:06:33.119 --> 01:06:38.039 that's a whole other episode of the podcast too, but like that's to me, 883 01:06:38.159 --> 01:06:40.719 that makes me sad, right, it makes me a little sad because 884 01:06:40.800 --> 01:06:44.320 what a great like what a great product? So yeah, and both of 885 01:06:44.320 --> 01:06:47.920 those specifically, like every time they try to make a change to where they 886 01:06:47.920 --> 01:06:51.920 can actually make enough money to operate the company, we go out of our 887 01:06:51.960 --> 01:06:57.440 ways to find out how we can continue using that tool without having to pay 888 01:06:57.480 --> 01:07:00.559 for it. I know, I know. And that's but I mean that 889 01:07:00.679 --> 01:07:05.599 that's okay because a lot of this, like all this all this transformation in 890 01:07:05.880 --> 01:07:11.400 UX that we were just talking about, that's really just been a huge wave 891 01:07:11.519 --> 01:07:15.679 over the last decade. I think it's all built upon free, open source 892 01:07:15.880 --> 01:07:17.599 software, right, Like it all starts with the kernel. To me, 893 01:07:18.079 --> 01:07:24.079 so because I'm not a hardware nerd, but like, uh, it's all 894 01:07:24.159 --> 01:07:26.360 so we can't It's not like we can we can be like, oh, 895 01:07:26.400 --> 01:07:30.280 we're I was going to say a holes, but we can't say we're jerks 896 01:07:30.360 --> 01:07:32.960 because uh we you know, we want to use this free software Like no, 897 01:07:33.079 --> 01:07:35.519 I mean that's in our that's in our DNA, right, Like, 898 01:07:35.559 --> 01:07:38.519 well, yeah, we want to figure out a free way to do it. 899 01:07:38.800 --> 01:07:42.559 So it's like you gotta that's a balance, that's a that's a balance 900 01:07:42.679 --> 01:07:45.880 for And that's why I really like product marketing where I work, because you 901 01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:49.199 get into some of that we call it packaging, right, like how are 902 01:07:49.199 --> 01:07:54.639 you going to package your products so that you're giving away for free what's really 903 01:07:54.760 --> 01:07:59.800 valuable for free? And that makes the customer want to use it, But 904 01:07:59.840 --> 01:08:03.320 you're also like setting your boundaries around your product like this, this is like 905 01:08:03.400 --> 01:08:09.079 this is their goal and and here's how we want to like here's how we 906 01:08:09.119 --> 01:08:12.599 want to monetize that. And I think that's like a fundamentally like an unsolved 907 01:08:12.599 --> 01:08:16.960 problem like how to how to do that well? And and you know vc 908 01:08:17.840 --> 01:08:24.079 VC money has been an interesting like right, like so this this last decade 909 01:08:24.119 --> 01:08:29.399 of UX growth has also been a decade of incredible venture capital investment in technology, 910 01:08:29.439 --> 01:08:31.439 and like, I don't know, I saw some articles about this a 911 01:08:31.439 --> 01:08:34.640 couple of years ago, like just just all the things that we think that 912 01:08:34.680 --> 01:08:39.319 all the things that we think are cheap, like taking a I remember when 913 01:08:39.439 --> 01:08:42.640 Uber and Lyft like raised their prices and it's like, yeah, like this 914 01:08:42.680 --> 01:08:45.920 is how much it actually costs. But before this, you, like, 915 01:08:45.960 --> 01:08:48.880 your experience was being subsidized by a venture by various venture capital firms. I 916 01:08:48.880 --> 01:08:54.600 mean that's true. So figuring out like how to how to transition into this 917 01:08:54.720 --> 01:08:57.680 next phase of the economy is also part of that. Anyway, this is 918 01:08:57.680 --> 01:09:01.920 a huge digression from your marketing question, but now it's really not because like 919 01:09:01.960 --> 01:09:08.319 the same like for me, the way I approach things is like the same 920 01:09:09.279 --> 01:09:14.199 rules still apply there. You know, you can use the subsidized Uber subsidi 921 01:09:14.279 --> 01:09:20.760 subsidized with VC money, which makes Uber look like a cost center that applies 922 01:09:20.800 --> 01:09:27.880 directly to your DevOps team or your network team that you work in in your 923 01:09:27.960 --> 01:09:30.640 day to day job. You know, you're viewed in the company as a 924 01:09:30.680 --> 01:09:36.640 cost center. But if you if you approach it from a marketing perspective, 925 01:09:38.359 --> 01:09:41.960 then you can change the perception of your team from being a cost center to 926 01:09:42.039 --> 01:09:47.439 being you know, a value for your company. Yeah, And I think 927 01:09:47.439 --> 01:09:54.319 that's challenging because for network specifically, because it's so to me it feels like 928 01:09:54.359 --> 01:09:58.640 the very bottom layer of what we think of as the stack, and it's 929 01:09:58.720 --> 01:10:03.239 so ubiquitous at this point that it's really seen as like a utility, right, 930 01:10:03.439 --> 01:10:09.680 It's like a utility. So it's really really hard to make like it's 931 01:10:09.720 --> 01:10:12.840 a very tempting thing. Actually, it's really interesting. We had this conversation 932 01:10:13.079 --> 01:10:17.520 internally really recently. It's really tempting to just market everything based on like, 933 01:10:17.520 --> 01:10:21.479 well, nothing works without the network. So like I'm selling you this new 934 01:10:21.600 --> 01:10:27.359 network monitoring tool and like you know, you're really important, nothing works without 935 01:10:27.399 --> 01:10:30.720 the network. Make sure you say that in your meetings, like well I 936 01:10:30.760 --> 01:10:32.680 need this new tool because nothing works without the network. And I think like 937 01:10:32.720 --> 01:10:38.520 what we've found is that that doesn't always that doesn't always work because it's just 938 01:10:38.680 --> 01:10:45.680 too but it's so fundamental that it's now just part of like our conceptualization of 939 01:10:45.720 --> 01:10:47.760 like you know, I expect for there to be a toilet, I expect 940 01:10:47.760 --> 01:10:50.119 for there, I expect to have water, I expect to be able to 941 01:10:50.239 --> 01:10:54.800 charge my device. And that's just like the way it is, and so 942 01:10:56.119 --> 01:11:00.279 yeah, how you make that transformation from thinking of something as a cost center 943 01:11:00.359 --> 01:11:04.880 to really like feeling the value in wanting to invest in it. I mean, 944 01:11:04.880 --> 01:11:09.680 I think when it comes to the network, where that where that comes 945 01:11:09.680 --> 01:11:15.640 in is like the digital experience, right, So like talking about talking about 946 01:11:15.640 --> 01:11:19.159 what we were talking about in terms of like how the how the network performs 947 01:11:19.520 --> 01:11:24.760 really matters to your to your customers, really matters to the people who are 948 01:11:24.760 --> 01:11:29.359 accessing your services and more. And you have some interesting points that like it 949 01:11:29.399 --> 01:11:32.560 goes that goes both ways, right, it matters to them, It matters 950 01:11:32.560 --> 01:11:34.720 to them both ways, and you have to design around if you have a 951 01:11:34.760 --> 01:11:39.319 really high performing network, then maybe you need to design around the way that 952 01:11:39.319 --> 01:11:42.640 that interaction appears to the user. That's really I never thought about that before, 953 01:11:42.920 --> 01:11:46.039 but yeah, I think that's where the value comes in, is thinking 954 01:11:46.079 --> 01:11:55.279 about that end user experience. But also the sort of hug ups hug ups 955 01:11:55.760 --> 01:11:59.399 sort of strategy comes to mind too, Like I think you need to balance 956 01:11:59.479 --> 01:12:04.399 that, Like Hay, network engineer, I understand you're you're always like you're 957 01:12:04.399 --> 01:12:10.079 often being blamed. It it's it's it's meantime to an instance, for you. 958 01:12:10.079 --> 01:12:13.680 You've got to be in all these calls. You've got to defend the 959 01:12:13.680 --> 01:12:17.560 fundamental like primacy of your service and how critical it is to the entire business 960 01:12:17.600 --> 01:12:20.920 running. But at the same time, people expect it so much that you 961 01:12:20.920 --> 01:12:25.439 don't get the credit, Like you gotta you gotta put those hugs out there. 962 01:12:26.479 --> 01:12:31.880 You also have to be like but yeah, like if you were I 963 01:12:31.119 --> 01:12:34.239 mean, if you, like, if you can be better at your job, 964 01:12:34.359 --> 01:12:36.920 then like people are gonna have a better experience if you can have the 965 01:12:36.960 --> 01:12:41.079 tools that you need to, if you can have the tools that you need 966 01:12:41.119 --> 01:12:44.600 to to raise the bar, then like that's gonna be good for everyone. 967 01:12:44.680 --> 01:12:48.880 So it's kind of like it's it's a hug and a hugging a nudge or 968 01:12:48.880 --> 01:12:57.039 something. It's a it's a bro huga. Oh there it goes. I 969 01:12:57.079 --> 01:12:59.800 don't get a lot of those go I mean I need that. I need 970 01:12:59.840 --> 01:13:02.239 that to me. I think there's an interesting corollary here too that you that 971 01:13:02.359 --> 01:13:09.680 you touched on a little bit, was that going and performing the marketing or 972 01:13:10.239 --> 01:13:15.119 content strategy requires understanding and I think that's twofold there, right, Like not 973 01:13:15.159 --> 01:13:18.279 only it's good to know that that that is a good expectation to have. 974 01:13:18.840 --> 01:13:25.039 But if you are on the technology side at hands on that there is an 975 01:13:25.079 --> 01:13:30.760 alternative paths out there that that your skills, if you like to communicate, 976 01:13:30.640 --> 01:13:32.960 if you if you like to talk about this, if you think you can 977 01:13:33.520 --> 01:13:38.600 uh work with these other teams, either side by side or or with them, 978 01:13:38.640 --> 01:13:42.760 because actually I think this goes into education as well. You call it 979 01:13:42.840 --> 01:13:45.840 thought leadership, but you know, even if you're even if you're a direct 980 01:13:45.840 --> 01:13:48.319 contact, you know they totally get it. They haven't spent much time actually 981 01:13:48.359 --> 01:13:54.920 thinking about how to convey that effectively to not just their executives who sign the 982 01:13:55.520 --> 01:13:59.479 approval on the product, but they are all the rest of their teams. 983 01:13:59.479 --> 01:14:01.399 Like I feel like we get lots of engineers in who are like, we 984 01:14:01.479 --> 01:14:05.920 know we need to do something. Do you have docs on how to do 985 01:14:05.960 --> 01:14:10.560 this or how to do that? Because we may not buy your product, 986 01:14:10.600 --> 01:14:14.800 but wow, this is such a huge problem for us that we would love 987 01:14:14.840 --> 01:14:16.079 to, like, I need to teach other people about how to solve this 988 01:14:16.159 --> 01:14:19.239 issue. Yeah. Yeah, Oh and that's huge. I mean that's kind 989 01:14:19.279 --> 01:14:25.479 of like the developer advocacy angle. I would say that, and I think 990 01:14:25.520 --> 01:14:30.439 that plays super well with and I think this is also like another sign of 991 01:14:30.479 --> 01:14:33.000 the culture change that we were talking about that came around the time that Kubernetes 992 01:14:34.279 --> 01:14:40.359 became became so abiquitous. It's just like people people like the idea of like 993 01:14:40.439 --> 01:14:45.479 sharing, sharing their knowledge and like building each other up. I think that's 994 01:14:45.520 --> 01:14:48.359 really I think that's really like a great way to go. And as a 995 01:14:48.399 --> 01:14:53.960 company, if you can demonstrate that you are willing to spend time, energy, 996 01:14:54.079 --> 01:14:59.520 spend your resources on like building the core competency of the community so that 997 01:14:59.560 --> 01:15:02.520 they can, you know, like what Will was saying, passing that knowledge 998 01:15:02.560 --> 01:15:09.079 along so that the next the next generation of engineers can really like start where 999 01:15:09.159 --> 01:15:12.119 you like be up on your shoulders, right. I'm coming up with all 1000 01:15:12.199 --> 01:15:14.840 kinds of metaphors to describe this, but it's like, I think, if 1001 01:15:14.880 --> 01:15:17.199 you can truly demonstrate that as a company, that's one of the best, 1002 01:15:17.239 --> 01:15:23.920 one of the absolute best ways to appeal to to a developer audience. And 1003 01:15:24.239 --> 01:15:28.000 I don't know just one thing to say on the marketing front, you mentioned 1004 01:15:28.039 --> 01:15:30.199 like this is like an option for folks if they if they want, if 1005 01:15:30.199 --> 01:15:34.239 they think that they can be good at communicating about this, It's very nice 1006 01:15:34.239 --> 01:15:38.319 to hear that two of you talk about this in this way and acknowledge that 1007 01:15:38.359 --> 01:15:40.840 this is a hard problem, because what I've found in my career is that 1008 01:15:41.600 --> 01:15:46.279 a lot of technical folks believe that marketing is like a thing that anyone can 1009 01:15:46.359 --> 01:15:56.079 do, like because it's like a soft it's like a soft skill set or 1010 01:15:56.119 --> 01:15:58.560 something. And they're like, oh, you know, I could, I 1011 01:15:58.600 --> 01:16:00.760 could do that. I just choose not to do that, right, Like 1012 01:16:00.840 --> 01:16:04.720 I'm choosing to be a technologist or I'm choosing to be a CEO or whatever 1013 01:16:04.760 --> 01:16:09.399 they're choosing to be. But they're like, oh, you've chosen this path 1014 01:16:09.439 --> 01:16:12.079 of marketing, but like, really, I could do it better. But 1015 01:16:12.159 --> 01:16:15.479 then when you sit down and I think I was probably that person, Like 1016 01:16:15.560 --> 01:16:18.439 I ended up in a marketing job, as I think I told you, 1017 01:16:18.479 --> 01:16:20.560 by accident, Like I did not. I wasn't like, oh, I'm 1018 01:16:20.600 --> 01:16:26.159 going to go on this great marketing career dive and see, you know, 1019 01:16:26.640 --> 01:16:29.960 this is where my talents really lie. But I think I was one of 1020 01:16:30.000 --> 01:16:33.920 those engineers who was better at like the cross functional communication part. I ended 1021 01:16:33.960 --> 01:16:38.119 up doing a lot of that. And then a product manager that I was 1022 01:16:38.159 --> 01:16:40.760 working for was like, you know, there's this job opening and I think 1023 01:16:40.800 --> 01:16:44.399 you'd be really good at that. Have you ever considered being like a being 1024 01:16:44.720 --> 01:16:49.720 a technical marketer? And I happened to want off of the team that I 1025 01:16:49.840 --> 01:16:53.399 was on at the time, and I was like, sure, I'll try 1026 01:16:53.439 --> 01:16:59.239 it. Right, it was a lateral move and it I think one of 1027 01:16:59.279 --> 01:17:03.000 the hardest, hardest things. And you can see based on this episode, 1028 01:17:03.000 --> 01:17:06.319 I am looking at the run time this is the hardest thing for me personally 1029 01:17:06.840 --> 01:17:11.840 is to say something in like three words right, to say to really like 1030 01:17:12.000 --> 01:17:16.199 get to the heart of like what gets to your heart, like really communicate 1031 01:17:16.319 --> 01:17:19.920 something that's going to resonate that you're going to remember. And that also is 1032 01:17:20.119 --> 01:17:29.920 true. I think like where that's where, Well, yeah, the bullshit 1033 01:17:30.039 --> 01:17:32.039 meter, the bullshit of God, I just said it, the bullshit meter 1034 01:17:32.239 --> 01:17:36.680 on I said it three times on our on my audience is like very high. 1035 01:17:36.760 --> 01:17:42.439 And I think that's one of the that's one of the palmarks of our 1036 01:17:42.880 --> 01:17:47.399 of our field is that we're we're skeptics and we do not we would love 1037 01:17:47.439 --> 01:17:50.840 to say that we do not want to be marketed to, and we can 1038 01:17:50.960 --> 01:17:56.159 smell marketing a mile away. And that's how that sort of education track and 1039 01:17:56.520 --> 01:18:00.239 developer advocacy track have like been such a foothold because it's it's not marketing, 1040 01:18:00.279 --> 01:18:05.439 but it is marketing, right, But I think like beyond that, really 1041 01:18:05.920 --> 01:18:11.680 it is important to we see ourselves as like we're selling a platform to people 1042 01:18:11.720 --> 01:18:15.720 who need it, Like our job is to find people who actually are a 1043 01:18:15.760 --> 01:18:19.880 good fit for our and actually just train the sales team on this last week. 1044 01:18:19.960 --> 01:18:23.800 It's like you're not trying to sell the product, Like you're not trying 1045 01:18:23.800 --> 01:18:26.800 to jam it down anyone's throat, right, You're trying to find the people 1046 01:18:26.840 --> 01:18:31.960 who are really excited about streaming to Lemontry. They're really excited about the the 1047 01:18:32.000 --> 01:18:34.840 real time data that they can get from our tool. They don't want to 1048 01:18:34.920 --> 01:18:39.279 wait for five minute polling, they don't want to refresh the page. That 1049 01:18:39.399 --> 01:18:43.640 experience is not enough for them. And so if we can find those people, 1050 01:18:45.239 --> 01:18:46.680 then our job is easy. Right. Then we just show them the 1051 01:18:46.680 --> 01:18:50.520 tool and we're like, let's let's get this set up in your environment and 1052 01:18:51.000 --> 01:18:55.039 let's get you going so that you can be successful at what you do. 1053 01:18:55.119 --> 01:18:58.079 And I think, like that's the dream, but really, if you want 1054 01:18:58.079 --> 01:19:01.640 to do that, you still have to figure out a short way to describe 1055 01:19:01.680 --> 01:19:04.640 what you do and why it matters. And that is one of the hardest. 1056 01:19:04.840 --> 01:19:08.880 It's one of like the shorter something has to be the harder it is 1057 01:19:08.920 --> 01:19:13.199 to make it good, and it's really very It's a challenge. It's a 1058 01:19:13.279 --> 01:19:15.680 huge challenge. So that's what has driven me into this field, is just 1059 01:19:15.720 --> 01:19:24.399 like the unexpected challenge of kind of marrying these two passions of mine being a 1060 01:19:24.439 --> 01:19:31.319 technologist and also being being a flabbermouth figuring out like where do I land with 1061 01:19:31.399 --> 01:19:34.279 that? And how can I connect with my audience with that? And it 1062 01:19:34.600 --> 01:19:38.000 is it is a great challenge for anyone who wants to do it. And 1063 01:19:38.039 --> 01:19:41.359 I will say, like you are a bit of a it's fun to be 1064 01:19:41.479 --> 01:19:44.920 like a bit of a unicorn. And I've I've experienced that. Like why 1065 01:19:45.000 --> 01:19:46.960 do you guys have me on this podcast? I don't know, Like but 1066 01:19:48.000 --> 01:19:51.239 because I'm in unicorn? Yeah right, yeah, because a lot of us 1067 01:19:51.840 --> 01:20:00.640 with technical backgrounds, our perception of marketing is, well, yeah, I 1068 01:20:00.680 --> 01:20:03.000 could wake up at eleven pound a few martinis and hit the golf course. 1069 01:20:03.079 --> 01:20:06.119 I could do marketing, sure, you know, And that's the that's the 1070 01:20:06.159 --> 01:20:10.560 perception of it, you know. Yeah, you're just just writing words on 1071 01:20:10.600 --> 01:20:13.079 the page. Right, Yeah, I saw mad man, I know what 1072 01:20:13.119 --> 01:20:16.560 you guys do you know? Having having I guess found a couple of companies. 1073 01:20:16.560 --> 01:20:19.640 Now, Uh, there is there is such a huge aspect here that 1074 01:20:19.680 --> 01:20:24.279 I feel like you're even under under selling Crosslin. It's uh, you've got, 1075 01:20:24.279 --> 01:20:26.800 you've got. Not only is it just too many words to fit in, 1076 01:20:27.039 --> 01:20:30.000 but sometimes you don't even have words at all, Like you first have 1077 01:20:30.039 --> 01:20:31.520 to come up with them to actually even say, like maybe you have a 1078 01:20:31.520 --> 01:20:35.159 feeling or an emotion you want to convey. Uh. There's just so many 1079 01:20:35.199 --> 01:20:39.880 different aspects there that have to end up not on not just on a marketing 1080 01:20:39.880 --> 01:20:43.439 page, but in a sales call and actually figuring out what that is. 1081 01:20:43.479 --> 01:20:45.640 It's a huge it's a huge struggle, for sure. It's not. And 1082 01:20:45.960 --> 01:20:48.880 that's not to say there aren't tons of marketers who are bad at their jobs 1083 01:20:48.960 --> 01:20:54.399 or doing a different job, which is like doing some sort of analysis on 1084 01:20:54.520 --> 01:21:00.359 big data to perform a b testuh, or looking at where traffic is coming 1085 01:21:00.359 --> 01:21:02.920 in through depending on your height in the funnel. You know, you can 1086 01:21:02.920 --> 01:21:08.680 do all those things. But that's not content marketing. That's reviewing some numbers, 1087 01:21:09.199 --> 01:21:14.600 which for sure is an easier job to do than what we've been talking 1088 01:21:14.600 --> 01:21:16.119 about here. I mean, I think there's a lot. There's a lot 1089 01:21:16.159 --> 01:21:20.439 to that. The marketing marketing is you point out, it's a pretty diverse 1090 01:21:23.119 --> 01:21:28.880 sort of skill set that and product marketing is really like being able to harness 1091 01:21:29.039 --> 01:21:33.359 all of that sort of engine in a way that will connect with your audience 1092 01:21:34.159 --> 01:21:36.640 in a way. I mean for B to B product marketing, it's like, 1093 01:21:36.680 --> 01:21:41.560 that's going to connect with your audience in a way that's authentic enough to 1094 01:21:41.640 --> 01:21:48.159 get you in the top of funnel gate, right and and then but and 1095 01:21:48.479 --> 01:21:51.159 but the other thing is you got you again. You've got to connect it 1096 01:21:51.199 --> 01:21:54.920 with what the product does. And I think this is where like I've worked 1097 01:21:54.960 --> 01:21:58.199 with I've worked with product marketers who don't have a technical background, and there 1098 01:21:58.199 --> 01:22:00.199 are plenty of them out there, and there's some wonderful ones out there, 1099 01:22:00.560 --> 01:22:05.960 But I've had arguments with people like that about like, well, you know, 1100 01:22:06.000 --> 01:22:10.800 I'm not going to say this because our product doesn't do that, Like 1101 01:22:10.800 --> 01:22:13.600 like, yeah, you can tell me that we have a security story. 1102 01:22:13.600 --> 01:22:15.319 This is one that comes up all the time, and this is not true. 1103 01:22:15.319 --> 01:22:17.199 If Kentick, we do have a security story. But a lot of 1104 01:22:17.439 --> 01:22:21.199 a lot of companies want to say that their product has a security story and 1105 01:22:21.279 --> 01:22:25.880 it just doesn't right, or they want to like and they want to tout 1106 01:22:26.159 --> 01:22:30.760 this thing that they heard that the product can do, and you're like, 1107 01:22:30.800 --> 01:22:36.560 where does that. It's like this sort of ball of energy gathers at a 1108 01:22:36.600 --> 01:22:42.199 B to B company about a technical product and what it can do in the 1109 01:22:42.239 --> 01:22:45.239 power of It's like this hype gathers up, and then as a as like 1110 01:22:45.319 --> 01:22:48.680 a product marketer coming from a technical perspective, you have to be like, 1111 01:22:48.720 --> 01:22:53.680 Okay, here's your ball. This is what's at the core of the ball, 1112 01:22:54.039 --> 01:22:56.640 and like I'm excited about the hype and I want to keep the ball 1113 01:22:56.760 --> 01:23:00.399 rolling, but we have to make sure that what's in there is solid, 1114 01:23:00.399 --> 01:23:02.319 that it's gonna be helpful to our customers, that and that, and then 1115 01:23:02.359 --> 01:23:05.760 because it's not, I'm so afraid of triggering that triggering that bullshit meter. 1116 01:23:05.840 --> 01:23:11.640 And it's definitely like, maybe that's why I'm I'm destined to be a middle 1117 01:23:12.279 --> 01:23:15.359 Uh yeah, I don't know. I'm not really a mental manager. I 1118 01:23:15.399 --> 01:23:18.479 kind of am. Yeah, So maybe that's why I'm destined to like I'm 1119 01:23:18.479 --> 01:23:21.279 never going to be in charge of the executive buyer messaging. I sort of 1120 01:23:21.279 --> 01:23:26.880 am, but I'm definitely like more, I am more afraid of lying, 1121 01:23:27.000 --> 01:23:29.720 Like I do not want to lie to people. I do not want to 1122 01:23:30.319 --> 01:23:32.279 get caught up on the hype train. And that was really hard for me 1123 01:23:32.319 --> 01:23:36.159 with our I AI product in particular, because I just I don't want to 1124 01:23:36.159 --> 01:23:40.079 get up caught up on that hype train, and I really want to mark 1125 01:23:40.119 --> 01:23:43.079 I don't really want to connect with the audience that is skeptical about AI, 1126 01:23:43.439 --> 01:23:47.000 and I really wanted our messaging to be like, you know, all all 1127 01:23:47.279 --> 01:23:51.960 other AI is like bullshit, I know, but this one you should really 1128 01:23:53.000 --> 01:23:55.640 take a look at it. You know. I want you to acknowledge that. 1129 01:23:55.960 --> 01:23:58.520 But hard to figure out how to do that in three words, you 1130 01:23:58.560 --> 01:24:00.640 know, I to just go with the same talk is like, you know, 1131 01:24:00.680 --> 01:24:03.760 all AI is bullshit, so as ours, but you know it's better, 1132 01:24:04.600 --> 01:24:08.039 yeah, I mean, but no, yeah, it's true. It's 1133 01:24:08.039 --> 01:24:11.520 like just the honest thing I think is really important, and it's really important 1134 01:24:11.520 --> 01:24:17.319 to me, and connecting two folks and letting them know that, like letting 1135 01:24:17.359 --> 01:24:21.039 them know that you've been in their shoes, I think, and it so 1136 01:24:21.119 --> 01:24:25.760 it really comes down to like empathy, right, I think empathy is a 1137 01:24:25.840 --> 01:24:31.840 huge part of it, just being able to communicate that and really authentically like 1138 01:24:32.279 --> 01:24:36.359 emanate that in your communications. And I think the companies that do that really 1139 01:24:36.399 --> 01:24:43.880 well that can can be very successful. So yeah, yeah, because in 1140 01:24:43.920 --> 01:24:46.880 cases like that, it's it's really not about the AI. It's what the 1141 01:24:47.000 --> 01:24:51.520 AI allows you to do that you care about. Yeah, yeah, that's 1142 01:24:51.560 --> 01:24:56.800 about what the humans can what the humans can do with it, and that 1143 01:24:56.800 --> 01:25:00.720 that story all always resonates really well. And I think that's why l l 1144 01:25:00.840 --> 01:25:08.079 M has particularly been so like why it just experienced such an incredible rise over 1145 01:25:08.079 --> 01:25:11.640 the last couple of years, because it really is fundamentally about like it's a 1146 01:25:11.720 --> 01:25:18.319 human, it's a it's a particularly human interface for a I think, yeah, 1147 01:25:19.479 --> 01:25:26.920 it's not all about empowering the human. Yeah for sure. All right, 1148 01:25:27.399 --> 01:25:32.119 good chat. I really enjoyed talking with you. Ready to break? 1149 01:25:32.680 --> 01:25:40.880 No, we still have to do PICKSI Warren putting you on the spot this 1150 01:25:40.920 --> 01:25:43.680 week, would you bring? Yeah? Well, you know I had something, 1151 01:25:43.840 --> 01:25:47.920 but then after the conversation started, I just I got a flash of 1152 01:25:47.920 --> 01:25:51.359 of what I should actually be my pick, And that's going to be The 1153 01:25:51.399 --> 01:25:58.760 Phoenix Project, which is a great book in the Dells space about a hypothetical 1154 01:25:58.800 --> 01:26:03.399 company that separates their ops team from their development team and they just struggle with 1155 01:26:03.439 --> 01:26:06.359 it in a lot of ways. In the company almost folds, And I 1156 01:26:06.399 --> 01:26:11.640 think there's a lot to do in the book with education and overcoming some of 1157 01:26:11.720 --> 01:26:15.039 those early challenges that we talked about in the podcast today. It's actually a 1158 01:26:15.079 --> 01:26:17.159 great book as well. So if you're anywhere in the development engineering space, 1159 01:26:17.199 --> 01:26:23.399 I can't imagine anyone on this call today wouldn't enjoy reading it. And you 1160 01:26:23.439 --> 01:26:27.279 may you may be like be able to put names and cry a little bit 1161 01:26:27.279 --> 01:26:30.239 on the inside when you see some of the problems that they they face. 1162 01:26:30.359 --> 01:26:33.479 But I highly recommend it for sure. You got to check that out. 1163 01:26:34.079 --> 01:26:39.760 Yeah, definitely a cool read, all right, Riislyn she brings a pick 1164 01:26:39.800 --> 01:26:45.600 this week. Yeah, I mean mine is definitely not as not as linear. 1165 01:26:45.800 --> 01:26:47.800 I can just talk about the book I'm reading right now, which is 1166 01:26:47.920 --> 01:26:51.720 really interesting to me. Okay, So it's my partner always calls me a 1167 01:26:53.560 --> 01:26:57.359 corporate fee up. And I told you that. I told you that I 1168 01:26:59.359 --> 01:27:03.279 briefly worked in more of like a directed developer B to B company and that 1169 01:27:03.479 --> 01:27:08.239 the enterprise sales model is a bit more my jam. I sort of discovered 1170 01:27:08.239 --> 01:27:13.000 that in my career and so I decided that I should learn more about corporate 1171 01:27:13.359 --> 01:27:16.479 stuff and understand like how it came to be. So I'm reading this book 1172 01:27:16.760 --> 01:27:21.880 The Corporation That Changed the World, and it's about the East India Company, 1173 01:27:23.760 --> 01:27:27.359 and it's really interesting because if you think about the like the VOC and the 1174 01:27:27.359 --> 01:27:31.039 East India Company, which were some of the world's first corporations, you probably 1175 01:27:31.119 --> 01:27:40.319 know that they went around the world and wreaked complete havoc on people and ecosystems 1176 01:27:40.479 --> 01:27:45.840 and exhibited such such stark corruption and violence that it's almost I mean, it's 1177 01:27:45.840 --> 01:27:48.359 just breathtaking to kind of think about that and read about that, and and 1178 01:27:48.399 --> 01:27:51.399 that's something that we're dealing with now, I think in our society is how 1179 01:27:51.439 --> 01:27:57.680 to how to move forward through that being able to acknowledge it. But it's 1180 01:27:57.720 --> 01:28:00.840 really interesting to learn about how it. It's like the way that corporations operate 1181 01:28:00.880 --> 01:28:05.439 today and what how you know, we talk about how corporation is like has 1182 01:28:05.439 --> 01:28:10.159 the same race as an individual. How did that come to me? And 1183 01:28:10.199 --> 01:28:13.520 what's the history there? So I'm kind of history Nerd and that's what I'm 1184 01:28:13.560 --> 01:28:15.399 reading now, and I would have It's dense, but it's not super long, 1185 01:28:15.439 --> 01:28:18.800 so I highly recommend it. So they're like the root of all evil. 1186 01:28:19.039 --> 01:28:23.159 Yeah, yeah, like let's let's stare it in the face if we 1187 01:28:23.199 --> 01:28:26.960 want to if we want to move forward to a new economic model as a 1188 01:28:27.000 --> 01:28:31.880 society, which that's another episode too, but definitely need to know like how 1189 01:28:31.960 --> 01:28:34.920 does the one that we have now? Like where did we go wrong? 1190 01:28:35.000 --> 01:28:39.720 I think it's really important to understand. Yeah, that's cool. I'd heard 1191 01:28:39.720 --> 01:28:43.000 of that book, but I didn't realize it was about the East India Trading 1192 01:28:43.039 --> 01:28:46.239 Company. I'll have to check that out because that sounds pretty cool. What's 1193 01:28:46.239 --> 01:28:51.960 your pick? So my pick is straight from the nerd archives. It's the 1194 01:28:53.520 --> 01:29:00.399 k nine S tool for managing or not really for managing, uh, it's 1195 01:29:00.520 --> 01:29:05.600 for visualizing your Kubernetes clusters, you know, instead of typing out you know, 1196 01:29:05.800 --> 01:29:13.960 sixty four word Kubernetes commands. kNs is just a CLI tool knin Scli 1197 01:29:14.119 --> 01:29:18.119 dot io that let you poke around and look at all the stuff that's going 1198 01:29:18.159 --> 01:29:21.319 on and Kubernetes quickly and easily. And the thing that I like most about 1199 01:29:21.319 --> 01:29:26.800 it is. It has VIM style bindings, so you can just use like 1200 01:29:26.880 --> 01:29:31.399 the J and K keys to arrow up and arrow down and different things like 1201 01:29:31.479 --> 01:29:36.359 that, and hit L for logs. And my favorite feature is when you 1202 01:29:36.399 --> 01:29:41.079 go to the log view mode, it's tailing the logs, but you can 1203 01:29:41.199 --> 01:29:45.279 hit the letter M and it just draws a straight line across the last log 1204 01:29:45.399 --> 01:29:49.399 so that when new logs come in, you can scroll back up to see 1205 01:29:49.399 --> 01:29:54.560 where you made the line and then just see the logs that have shown up 1206 01:29:54.600 --> 01:29:58.239 since you last looked at it. And so there's actually there's a lot of 1207 01:29:58.319 --> 01:30:01.880 tools in this category, but knis is definitely my favorite. So that's my 1208 01:30:01.920 --> 01:30:04.399 pick for the week. I was worried you were going to say there was 1209 01:30:04.439 --> 01:30:14.000 like some sort of AI interface not yet right, it's coming. No, 1210 01:30:14.159 --> 01:30:16.600 that would be perfect, you know, little AI interface where I can just 1211 01:30:16.640 --> 01:30:19.800 type WTF and it says, well, actually, yeah, right, yeah, 1212 01:30:19.840 --> 01:30:23.800 there is nothing going on right now? You know these plots in this 1213 01:30:24.239 --> 01:30:27.840 space which are the issue that you want to take a look at, Because 1214 01:30:27.880 --> 01:30:31.600 that's where my line of questioning always starts. That is the best AI entry 1215 01:30:31.640 --> 01:30:34.680 point? What is the best I'm going to suggest that I'm going to take 1216 01:30:34.720 --> 01:30:39.439 that back to our product. Yes, got to be able to respond to 1217 01:30:39.439 --> 01:30:43.119 that one. Yeah, Yeah, because literally I can't formulate a more accurate 1218 01:30:43.199 --> 01:30:47.960 question right at the moment. Nope. Awesome. Well, Roselynd, thank 1219 01:30:48.000 --> 01:30:50.600 you so much for being on a show. This has been a blast. 1220 01:30:50.880 --> 01:30:56.279 Yeah. Really enjoyed the conversation and really appreciate you having me and yeah, 1221 01:30:56.640 --> 01:31:00.039 looking forward to continue to listen and see what you get up to talking about 1222 01:31:00.079 --> 01:31:02.840 next. Yeah, for sure. And if you want to come back on, 1223 01:31:02.960 --> 01:31:06.479 And because we picked up a couple of different tangents there to go off 1224 01:31:06.520 --> 01:31:10.560 on, if you ever want to come back on and go down those paths, 1225 01:31:10.680 --> 01:31:12.960 I'd love to have you back on the show. Oh yeah, that'd 1226 01:31:12.960 --> 01:31:15.920 be awesome. Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna. I'm gonna take you 1227 01:31:15.000 --> 01:31:18.520 up on that, all right. Cool. And for everyone listening, whether 1228 01:31:18.560 --> 01:31:24.840 you're listening to the recorded podcast or if you're catching one of the live streaming 1229 01:31:25.119 --> 01:31:31.399 episodes on LinkedIn, YouTube, Twitch, or x A KA Twitter, thank 1230 01:31:31.439 --> 01:31:32.039 you for listening.