1
00:00:14,519 --> 00:00:20,160
All right, what's going on?
Y'all. Welcome to another episode of Adventures

2
00:00:20,199 --> 00:00:24,440
in dev Ops. I'm your host
Will Button, joining me my co host,

3
00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,000
Warren perad what's going on? Warren? Thanks? Well, back again.

4
00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:32,640
I you know, actually this week, I'm super interested in the topic

5
00:00:33,439 --> 00:00:37,600
that we have lined up because in
the last few few weeks we've been dancing

6
00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:43,000
around different aspects of observability, and
this is another flavor, and I just

7
00:00:43,079 --> 00:00:48,560
I have so many difficult questions I'm
hoping our guests can answer right on.

8
00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:55,240
Speaking of our guest, Yeah,
Roslin Whitley, director of product marketing for

9
00:00:55,439 --> 00:01:00,280
can Tick the network observability tool for
even when the network is not yours,

10
00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:06,280
which is really cool. I think
that's super cool, just because network observability

11
00:01:07,239 --> 00:01:11,319
has changed since the days of whenever
I was racking firewalls and routers and configuring

12
00:01:11,439 --> 00:01:18,120
sn and P traps. Yeah,
but welcome Roslyn. Happy to have you

13
00:01:18,159 --> 00:01:22,000
on the show. Oh my gosh, you said configuring sn MP traps.

14
00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:25,920
You didn't know those are the magic
words for me for me to talk about.

15
00:01:26,239 --> 00:01:32,200
You've fallen into a trap sor that's
hi. Thanks so much for having

16
00:01:32,239 --> 00:01:34,920
me on the show. Oh,
I'm happy to have you here, and

17
00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:40,319
I'm looking forward to this because network
observability kind of has become a black box,

18
00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:46,640
and we were talking about this before
we went live here that you know,

19
00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:49,000
it's just something that's kind of abstracted
away with your cloud provider, which

20
00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:55,719
you have a background in past services, so you're directly experienced with that.

21
00:01:56,120 --> 00:02:01,480
And you even mentioned that you know, some DevOps people these days actively avoid

22
00:02:01,599 --> 00:02:08,319
networking for just because of the complexity
of it. So before we jump into

23
00:02:08,319 --> 00:02:12,439
that, give us a little bit
about your background, about what you do

24
00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:16,560
and how you got there. Yeah, sure, thanks, I am,

25
00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:21,599
Yes, you already said my title. I am a director of product Marketing

26
00:02:21,719 --> 00:02:24,159
at Kentick, the network of our
ability company, And it's been kind of

27
00:02:24,199 --> 00:02:30,800
an interesting, interesting journey to get
to this place. I think being a

28
00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:38,280
being a marketer for a highly technical
product requires a specific skill set, so

29
00:02:38,439 --> 00:02:43,800
lots of us do have interesting journeys
getting to that point. And I what

30
00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:46,479
I was like a bit of a
unique nerd when I was a little kid,

31
00:02:47,039 --> 00:02:53,159
Like my dad got me into like
mostly Fedora, right, And for

32
00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:58,759
your dad, that's a parenting win
right there. Totally, Well, yeah,

33
00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,400
hi, dad, that was a
parenting went good job, and yeah,

34
00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:05,759
like he he got me into that. And also I kind of wasn't

35
00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:08,080
allowed to access the internet unless I
could, like you know, do some

36
00:03:08,199 --> 00:03:14,159
basic like movements on my machine for
a while, and I remember, like

37
00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:16,520
god, I remember like when I
discovered flash video and then I was like,

38
00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,800
oh my god, I don't have
the drivers for this, and I've

39
00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,879
spent like you know, hours and
hours trying to get up the work.

40
00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,560
So definitely always more on the software
side. I'm not I'm not a hardware

41
00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:30,560
nerd, and I would say,
like I feel like some some deep shame

42
00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:34,240
about that. I just never never
really got into it. That's interesting because

43
00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,479
it turned into like a I guess, a career, a career in software.

44
00:03:38,919 --> 00:03:42,560
There were some different points at which
I was pursuing different things. I

45
00:03:42,599 --> 00:03:47,199
have a degree in English literature,
but I ended up getting different jobs and

46
00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:51,800
like like I would be a secretary
and I'd be like, your computer system,

47
00:03:51,879 --> 00:03:53,199
really it's really old and crafty,
like, do you want me to

48
00:03:53,199 --> 00:03:57,960
fix it for you? And that
turned into into a career in tech.

49
00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:02,520
It's been really interesting. In my
first real job was first real proper type

50
00:04:02,599 --> 00:04:08,240
job, I would say, was
yeah, being a being on the systems

51
00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,080
team and ultimately the team lead of
the systems team at the University of New

52
00:04:12,159 --> 00:04:16,199
Mexico for Learning Management systems. So
that's that was my sisidman job, and

53
00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:24,240
that's where I had the pager and
I had to I graduated from Fedora to

54
00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:29,519
red Hat Enterprise Linux and uh,
it was it was a fun journey.

55
00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:34,800
And then after that I really understood
why, you know, why application delivery

56
00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:39,319
and software delivery was important and what
what is this DevOps thing? That's when

57
00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:43,480
I found out about it. And
even though I had played with Cloud a

58
00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,480
lot, so I also have a
master's in Information Systems from Northwestern and when

59
00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:53,120
I was doing that remote a lot
of remote classes for that, I was

60
00:04:53,199 --> 00:04:57,079
like, I don't I'm not a
hardware nerd. I don't have a machine

61
00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:01,040
that I want to sort of build
for this for this purpose. So what

62
00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:06,319
is this AWS thing? And that
was like what twenty fifteen, so not

63
00:05:06,519 --> 00:05:11,959
like very early AWS days, but
pretty early when everybody was just playing with

64
00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,160
it and hadup was really popular.
Then she was also playing with that and

65
00:05:15,399 --> 00:05:20,240
like managing my own HADUPE clusters in
AWS and trying to like find other people

66
00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:24,920
in the class who were trying to
do it. But that was that was

67
00:05:24,959 --> 00:05:30,079
really interesting and then anyway, this
is going to be a babble, a

68
00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:35,800
babble past babble alert. But yeah, then I I started working at Puppet

69
00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:41,959
after that and had some some career
in DevOps and ended up at Render,

70
00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:47,480
most recently working at working with really
a totally different crowd of folks who want

71
00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:51,240
all of that to be abstracted away. And you're right, it's it's not

72
00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:59,879
just passed. Like I think,
networking stuff is buried under layer after late

73
00:06:00,199 --> 00:06:04,399
of abstraction and we continue to like
actually, was listening to one of your

74
00:06:04,439 --> 00:06:10,120
episodes of your podcast a couple of
days ago about a virtual a virtual networking

75
00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,680
solution from twenty twenty one, and
that was really interesting. But yeah,

76
00:06:13,759 --> 00:06:17,399
like we just we just abstract all
the things, but the thing is like

77
00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:26,000
still underneath that kernel is still under
there. And also all of these you

78
00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:30,560
know, TCP IP connections, everything
is still talking to each other using a

79
00:06:30,639 --> 00:06:33,480
lot of the same protocols. We
just have gotten to the point where you

80
00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:42,360
can be a principal engineer and not
know what is going on. You know,

81
00:06:42,439 --> 00:06:46,399
you're you're eight layers of software abstraction
deep, and you're not that deep

82
00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:51,199
by old, Well, it's very
deep. It's like things I don't understand,

83
00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,759
right, like a lot of the
Kubernetes networking stuff, but like you're

84
00:06:54,800 --> 00:07:00,439
not you're not at that rudimentary layer. So what kent tig is really about

85
00:07:00,639 --> 00:07:05,319
is bridging that, Like, how
how do you how do you get the

86
00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:11,000
observability in like, because the thing
is like, nine times out of ten,

87
00:07:11,079 --> 00:07:15,480
you're fine having having only that visibility
eight layers deep. You're fine and

88
00:07:15,519 --> 00:07:21,600
you know everything. But then once
about every depending upon how much infrastructure you're

89
00:07:21,639 --> 00:07:28,600
managing, once every six weeks to
six months, you're TCP dumping for hours

90
00:07:28,639 --> 00:07:33,560
and hours trying to understand what's going
on because you have no clue what's wrong

91
00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:39,079
with your what's wrong with your infrastructure
or why especially you know latency, why

92
00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:45,079
something is and not performing as people
expect. So yeah, now that's what

93
00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:46,600
I work on. I was trying
to tell you about my background, but

94
00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,839
it's, uh, yeah, it's
it's a new challenge to be looking at

95
00:07:49,879 --> 00:07:57,319
this network observability thing, and observability
is super important. So yeah, it's

96
00:07:57,399 --> 00:08:01,680
it's one of those things where it's
it's only important when it's broken, right,

97
00:08:03,879 --> 00:08:05,680
Like otherwise you just don't care.
And I think that's one of the

98
00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:11,680
hard parts, is like how do
you know what what should I be monitoring

99
00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:16,639
or look recording ahead of time so
that when this does break, I've got

100
00:08:16,759 --> 00:08:22,680
enough information to understand which part actually
broke. The spoiler there is whatever you

101
00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:28,959
weren't recording, sure well. And
then the tricky game with that too is

102
00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:35,360
like and I remember those days,
like this one esoteric thing that you need

103
00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:37,759
to be observing, Like next time, you're going to have that data,

104
00:08:37,759 --> 00:08:39,919
but that's not going to be the
problem. It's going to be a different

105
00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,919
It's like whack a mole, right
right, So it's good to have.

106
00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,679
And I think that's where that's where
really the word observability comes in. It's

107
00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:54,559
like selling this fantasy that you're going
to have all of the data all the

108
00:08:54,600 --> 00:09:00,639
time and then you'll just be able
to look across with your crystal ball and

109
00:09:00,759 --> 00:09:03,799
observe it all. I think that's
the dream, right, that's the dream.

110
00:09:05,399 --> 00:09:07,639
Oh yeah, You'll have like the
big, the big TV screen up

111
00:09:07,639 --> 00:09:13,399
on the wall with the really cool
looking diagram and when something goes wrong,

112
00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:16,639
then the right thing is just going
to turn red for you and you'll be

113
00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:20,080
like, ah, yeah, I've
got it. Oh my god. You

114
00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,240
like we say that as a joke, but I've literally been asked for that

115
00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:28,720
buy an executive in a call,
like I mean more than once. Yeah,

116
00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:33,039
I've I've worked at startups where they
set aside some of the money to

117
00:09:35,039 --> 00:09:39,000
buy TVs to mount in the office
just for that reason. I'm like,

118
00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:43,720
no, it doesn't really work like
that. And today, like, does

119
00:09:43,759 --> 00:09:48,840
that mean you're buying each of your
engineers an SR team or even in a

120
00:09:48,879 --> 00:09:52,360
product engineering team a monitor is stick
on their walle at home so they can

121
00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,200
just glance, glance over it and
see what the current state is. Oh

122
00:09:56,279 --> 00:10:00,879
myn my family would love that.
It's dinner time, just like craving my

123
00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,080
neck to look over there. Yeah. No, well, and actually that's

124
00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:07,519
what's That's what I really like about
Kentick, though, is it's not really

125
00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,200
I mean, we we have great
dashboards. They're all super customizable. You

126
00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:15,320
can put whatever you want on your
dashboard and drag the widgets around and it's

127
00:10:15,399 --> 00:10:18,559
very very easy to customize it to
make a dashboard that you want to use.

128
00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:20,919
But that's not that's not the core
of our product at all. There

129
00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:28,399
needed right, Yeah, oh god, I aged myself talking about that.

130
00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:35,000
But uh, which, hey,
that's that's a badge of honor. I

131
00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:39,320
never wall so I don't have I
don't have that badge. But yeah,

132
00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:43,279
so I think what the core of
our products is really what we call the

133
00:10:43,799 --> 00:10:50,039
data explore and the metrics explore,
like exploring your telemetry is really what we're

134
00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,440
about. So yeah, like dashboards
are cool. And once you've done your

135
00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:56,159
exploration, like after you had that
incident where you figured out what you needed

136
00:10:56,159 --> 00:11:00,080
to look at to know what the
problem was. Yeah, like, by

137
00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,799
all means, put that graph on
your dashboard because if it's that again,

138
00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:05,879
then you're going to know and you're
gonna be able to see the history.

139
00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:11,440
But really the power of our product
is the ability to kind of explore because

140
00:11:11,519 --> 00:11:16,320
because what we're really talking about here
is unknown unknowns, right Like that the

141
00:11:16,759 --> 00:11:22,679
unknown unknown is is that's the mill
always the million dollar question. So if

142
00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:30,919
you have the ability to ask questions
really quickly, get the answer, get

143
00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,799
the answer to anything that you need
to know kind of in a visual format,

144
00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,440
be able to compare it, like
compare you know, what's happening in

145
00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:41,159
the last five minutes to what happened
in the last even maybe thirty days,

146
00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:43,720
and you can kind of slice and
dice that in a way that makes sense

147
00:11:43,759 --> 00:11:48,200
to you, and you can compare
and put a lot of different because this

148
00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:54,639
is like high cardinality data like network
telemetry, there's a lot of attributes in

149
00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:58,840
that data set. And for Pentich, actually we add so our bread and

150
00:11:58,799 --> 00:12:03,440
by is well, where Kentic started
was flow logs, right, So that's

151
00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:11,039
a traffic flow. Traffic analysis basically
is was was where Kentick started. But

152
00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:13,799
if you look at a raw flow
log, there are a bunch of different

153
00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,759
kinds of flow logs in the cloud. We're talking about VPC flow logs,

154
00:12:18,039 --> 00:12:22,240
although they're also called different things but
different cloud providers of course for prietory.

155
00:12:22,799 --> 00:12:28,600
But it's a little hard to make
sense of the raw log. And that's

156
00:12:28,639 --> 00:12:31,080
another thing. I mean, it's
not as bad as PCP dumping, but

157
00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:35,519
people don't necessarily want to be like
reading through flow logs, you know,

158
00:12:35,519 --> 00:12:41,840
one after another. But what we
do is we enrich that raw log with

159
00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:50,120
like application context like so things like
tags for example, application names and a

160
00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:56,279
bunch of other network e stuff that
I don't necessarily know a lot about,

161
00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:00,639
but so that you can understand kind
of all of those layers and you have

162
00:13:00,799 --> 00:13:03,519
context, so you're never looking it's
not like you're using Knick to look at

163
00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,720
the raw flolog or now we do
metrics to from from cloud and from devices.

164
00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:13,279
We enrich that data as well,
so you can kind of draw a

165
00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:18,000
line between between the different data points
that you're trying to understand, and you

166
00:13:18,039 --> 00:13:20,120
can do those as a line graph
or as a sand key, or you

167
00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,480
can look at it in a table. Like there's a lot of different ways

168
00:13:22,519 --> 00:13:28,240
to visualize the data and understand it, and that's really where the power is

169
00:13:28,279 --> 00:13:31,360
because a dashboard back to the dashboard
thing. A dashboard is like it's only

170
00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,600
as good as what you knew to
put on the dashboard, right, and

171
00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:43,600
that is an there there was some
kind of meme about being in sort of

172
00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:48,120
a post dashboard dashboard fatigue. I
think is there's some memes out there.

173
00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:50,919
I can't think of them right now, but really, like, what what

174
00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:54,799
you really want to do is explore
the data and understand it like you want

175
00:13:54,840 --> 00:14:01,360
to you want to be able to
find things and that quickly. I think

176
00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:05,440
that's really like observable. The promises
of observability goes beyond the dashboard, and

177
00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:13,600
it's really about human It's about harnessing
all the telemetry that you can to power

178
00:14:13,639 --> 00:14:20,279
your human brain. Like it's yeah, yeah, it's like there's all of

179
00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:26,559
this information that can quickly overload me. So just take everything that looks like

180
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:31,440
it always has and ignore that and
show me what changed. Yeah, yeah,

181
00:14:31,559 --> 00:14:37,759
show me what changed. Like an
anomaly detection is definitely huge in our

182
00:14:37,799 --> 00:14:41,679
in our space because even if you
and that's I think that's where we can

183
00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:48,080
make things more accessible to folks who
don't have a ton of network engineering background

184
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:52,080
or passion. It's like, I
don't really need to understand the nitty gritty

185
00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:56,000
of what like of what's like what
is different here? Just show me that

186
00:14:56,080 --> 00:15:00,320
it's different, and then I can
dig into that and I can go and

187
00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:05,039
I can understand that. Show tell
me, right, But like that's our

188
00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:09,720
job now, right, That's that's
the truth. So so it's really nice

189
00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:15,279
to be able to I guess the
marketing term is democratize, uh, to

190
00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,519
kind of democratize access to network data
and bring it into the bringing into the

191
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:24,720
twenty first century because a lot of
the tools that are are used by by

192
00:15:24,879 --> 00:15:30,000
network engineering teams have been around for
a long time and there because this is

193
00:15:30,039 --> 00:15:35,480
old, like this is old technology
that hasn't necessarily changed that much at its

194
00:15:35,519 --> 00:15:39,559
core. So yeah, it's important
to be able to have observability into all

195
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:46,480
of these different environments like like your
public cloud, like your past and all

196
00:15:46,519 --> 00:15:50,320
that. When or does in the
process or do you see these tools being

197
00:15:50,399 --> 00:15:52,960
used? Like is it that there
is some sort of alert or some problem

198
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:58,159
in production my environment? And now
I need to investigate further and I'm not

199
00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:00,879
even sure where to start. And
then at that moment it's like, well,

200
00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:03,440
you know, while it's so great
that I had this tool that was

201
00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,399
already ingesting all of my VPC flow
logs, and I'm going to it and

202
00:16:07,879 --> 00:16:11,759
reading through what's there, and the
anomaly detection runs and tells me about some

203
00:16:11,799 --> 00:16:15,440
sort of network issue. Is that
the sort of flow that you think about?

204
00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,919
Here? It depends because yeah,
good question there. Kentik is a

205
00:16:19,919 --> 00:16:26,600
platform and we have a few different
kind of products in there, and so

206
00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:30,159
yes, but high high level yes, there are alerts. So if I

207
00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:37,799
have a faulty device or a device
that's having software hardware problems, then I

208
00:16:37,919 --> 00:16:42,000
can get an alert on that I
have all my devices onboarded. So that's

209
00:16:42,039 --> 00:16:47,759
like in the data center, right
it similarly in the cloud, I can

210
00:16:47,799 --> 00:16:52,639
set alerts on different thresholds. Is
actually alerting is very complicated in itself because

211
00:16:52,679 --> 00:16:56,759
there are different kind of schemes for
what would trigger an alert, and alert

212
00:16:56,799 --> 00:17:00,600
fatigue is also also a mean and
me something you've probably talked about on the

213
00:17:00,639 --> 00:17:06,559
show. So it's important to have
a sophisticated ability to set the alerts and

214
00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:11,799
kind of fine tune what is actually
on fire and what's not. So we

215
00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:17,599
certainly have that capability for all the
types of environments that we provide observability into.

216
00:17:17,839 --> 00:17:22,400
And but so what I've seen,
we work with a lot of big

217
00:17:22,559 --> 00:17:26,720
enterprises, and I have heard like, hey, the network team gets called

218
00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,960
into every single incident. So every
time there's an incident, someone from the

219
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,640
network team is on the call and
they need to be. They may get

220
00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:38,599
a question of like, you know, this application stack is experience. It

221
00:17:38,599 --> 00:17:45,079
seems like it's experiencing latency and what
you know, what is it? And

222
00:17:45,799 --> 00:17:49,880
the classic question is like is it
the network? And there's even like this

223
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:55,240
sort of idea of the meantime to
innocence, which I'm sure you've heard of

224
00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:00,359
I'm trying to resolve themselves of responsibility. But I think that's real because they

225
00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,519
really do get called into every incident, and then you know, what percentage

226
00:18:03,559 --> 00:18:07,920
of the time is it the network? Probably not that great of a percentage

227
00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,119
of the time, But I think
what where we're at now, is that

228
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,680
even when it's not even when I'm
doing air quotes but you can't see them

229
00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:21,559
on the pods, not the network. I think the network engine you can

230
00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:26,799
provide insight into because right we're we're
in like the world of micro services and

231
00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:33,599
definitely distributed computing. So if I've
got traffic going from one service to another

232
00:18:33,759 --> 00:18:38,519
and then the traffic's not going from
the next service to the next service,

233
00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:44,279
like, that's information that I can
use to understand and zero in on,

234
00:18:44,599 --> 00:18:48,720
like I don't know, Yeah,
this this weird, this weird presentation layer

235
00:18:48,799 --> 00:18:52,200
thing is like getting hung up,
and here's where it's happening. So I

236
00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:57,519
think, yeah, But the tools
also get used for other stuff like capacity

237
00:18:57,599 --> 00:19:03,160
planning. Capacity thing is really important
in because right we're not just about incidents,

238
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:08,599
we're also about you know, providing
reliability and resiliency. That that's also

239
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:17,160
our job. These days, and
and and like latency is sort of the

240
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:21,279
new outage sometimes, I think.
So it's not just about like about promoting

241
00:19:21,319 --> 00:19:26,079
availability, but also like making sure
that performance is what your customers expect all

242
00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:29,160
the time. We all have very
high expectations for that. So anyway,

243
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:33,440
capacity plane is really important. So
understanding like if I do have in my

244
00:19:33,559 --> 00:19:40,599
hybrid cloud infrastructure, if I do
have you know, data data requests are

245
00:19:40,599 --> 00:19:45,880
traveling across a cloud interconnect pipe we
call it a pipe, then I want

246
00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,960
to know, like what's the capacity
of that pipe? Am I filling it

247
00:19:49,039 --> 00:19:52,400
up? Like when am I filling
up at surges? How do I manage

248
00:19:52,799 --> 00:19:57,480
And different kinds of different kinds of
gateways like in the cloud, for example,

249
00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:03,920
have different uh different properties and different
performance that I can get out of

250
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,559
those and kind of how I set
everything up. I'm always balancing cost with

251
00:20:07,759 --> 00:20:14,680
performance to make sure that folks are
gonna get get the get the performance that

252
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:18,160
they expect at a cost that I
can afford. So that's and and and

253
00:20:18,599 --> 00:20:23,759
Because people don't necessarily know very much
about networking, even when they're designing workloads

254
00:20:23,759 --> 00:20:27,319
in the cloud, they may have
something set up, like with a transit

255
00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:32,759
gateway when or And actually you can
see in Kentick, you can look at

256
00:20:32,759 --> 00:20:37,640
things on a map and see like
how the traffic is traveling, and sometimes

257
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:38,880
you're like, oh, it's going
out there and then it's coming back in,

258
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,680
Like why is it doing that?
Sometimes it might be doing that for

259
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,880
a reason, like it's a it's
a firewall thing, But other times it's

260
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:49,680
just the way that some that some
dude set it up, and you can

261
00:20:49,759 --> 00:20:55,319
change that and you can realize performance
gains and cost gains from that. So

262
00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:59,640
that's like another place where the tools
get get used. Beyond kind of a

263
00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:04,160
learning, it's also about being proactive. I feel like you kind of called

264
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:10,319
me out there because that was my
that's my incident response run book is blame

265
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,960
the network team, and I know
it's probably not THEMN, but it at

266
00:21:14,039 --> 00:21:18,160
least buys me time to figure out
what's really going on while they're trying to

267
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,440
prove their innocence. Yeah, because
that's not a fast thing to do,

268
00:21:21,559 --> 00:21:23,359
right, you know, it's like
how do I how do I absolve myself

269
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,640
of culpability? Here is quite the
challenge. No, it's true, but

270
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:33,480
hey, I think like I've I've
been there, So that's why I can,

271
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,559
I can. I've never been a
network engineer, so I was always

272
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:38,720
calling, you know, I got
an issue with my one of my applications,

273
00:21:38,759 --> 00:21:44,960
I'm calling the network team. And
they managed our virtualized infrastructure, so

274
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:51,000
all of the the sphere sort of
infrastructure. So I think, probably what

275
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,599
were they doing when I was calling
them, They're like restarting this restarting this

276
00:21:53,799 --> 00:21:57,960
node just to see if it's the
problem and watching it fill over, and

277
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,839
so yeah, well they were doing
that. I was just, yeah,

278
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:08,079
desperately like repping through logs and trying
to look for a pattern, right because

279
00:22:08,079 --> 00:22:12,960
it could come back on me.
For database administration stuff, it was always

280
00:22:14,599 --> 00:22:18,119
it was always fun for me when
it was the database because I was also

281
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,519
secretly kind of wanted to be a
DBA and study that in school. So

282
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:25,240
I would be much more of an
active partner like I would be, and

283
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:29,200
I think there was more more information, Like in my application logs, I

284
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,680
could find stuff. I could find, you know, Oracle errors or my

285
00:22:32,759 --> 00:22:37,279
SQL errors that would that would be
like smoking gun material. And then I

286
00:22:37,319 --> 00:22:41,240
would go and do these extended kind
of research into what was going on because

287
00:22:41,279 --> 00:22:45,680
I could I cared about kind of
how they were implemented on the application side

288
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,119
and what the interplay was so so
that was I was more of an active

289
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:52,680
partner on that before the network I
was exactly like you weren't just like all

290
00:22:52,759 --> 00:22:56,519
right, uh yeah, like like
all of us right, I think we're

291
00:22:56,519 --> 00:23:02,039
all on the same boat. It's
like you need that network engineer when you

292
00:23:02,039 --> 00:23:07,079
need them. Real I got so
scared, what uh you mentioned the DBA

293
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,839
thing because I feel like there was
a non triven number of times where a

294
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:12,160
DVA DIDs down and be like,
oh you know what, we know what

295
00:23:12,279 --> 00:23:15,359
was going on, and we ran
something and it fixed it. And I'm

296
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:25,519
just like I don't want that to
be the answer. Oh yeah, because

297
00:23:25,519 --> 00:23:26,440
you want to, you want to
be the hero. But then the thing

298
00:23:26,599 --> 00:23:33,880
is the alternative. The alternative is
potentially that like if it really is your

299
00:23:33,319 --> 00:23:37,519
problem, your problem on the application
layer that you or you know, even

300
00:23:37,559 --> 00:23:44,480
the OS layer was for in my
book, in my experience, like if

301
00:23:44,519 --> 00:23:47,599
it really was my fault, it
probably literally was my fault, like it

302
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,759
was some kind of typo that I
had made during an upgrade months before.

303
00:23:52,039 --> 00:23:53,759
And then like I go in there
and I find like, oh god,

304
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,160
like there's a carriage return there that's
bad. And then I mean, do

305
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:02,200
you really want to be explaining that. Probably not, I'm amazing. I

306
00:24:02,279 --> 00:24:04,920
feel something about it for me that
feels justifiable, though, Like I could

307
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,759
be like, hey, look there's
a typo here, clearly that's causing the

308
00:24:07,799 --> 00:24:11,119
problem, and you know, my
change and everyone can look at that.

309
00:24:11,519 --> 00:24:14,680
But when there's a problem on the
network side or on the database side,

310
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,880
and there's an issue there and it
gets resolved somehow, I know having been

311
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:25,240
on the other side so frequently that
I honestly could not grock what they're telling

312
00:24:25,279 --> 00:24:29,400
me, Like what the what the
fix was adding extra nodes or replacing them

313
00:24:29,519 --> 00:24:33,599
or something about the routing is very
difficult to understand. It's true, and

314
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,839
you wonder, you wonder, like
is this going to be another sleepless night,

315
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,599
Like is this going to happen again? Because sometimes we would have that.

316
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,319
It would happen once and they would
be like, we fixed it,

317
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,559
we ran this thing, or we
restarted this thing, and then like two

318
00:24:45,599 --> 00:24:51,440
weeks later it happens again and this
time it's faster. They fix it.

319
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:55,200
But yeah, no, you're right, I get it. It's I mean,

320
00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,720
this is all it's all part of
the thing, and you're talking about

321
00:25:00,839 --> 00:25:04,599
root cause analysis, and I think
like what we talk about a lot at

322
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:10,160
Kentig is sort of this holy grail, and that is you know, I

323
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,359
how far are we into the conversation. We're twenty four minutes, twenty five

324
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,839
minutes into the conversation for the record, and I am going to utter the

325
00:25:17,839 --> 00:25:22,000
phrase AI, right was going to
come up. I can't believe I got

326
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:26,640
twenty five minutes into this call without
uttering the phrase AI. But yeah,

327
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:33,599
but look our live subscribe account just
went up to yeah. But I mean,

328
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,759
really, that's that's the that's the
magic, right if you can get

329
00:25:37,279 --> 00:25:41,640
something that can do some of that
for you and say, hey, that's

330
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,880
probably it. Why do you check
this and let me say it like that.

331
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:52,839
It's not I do not think that
we are close to having a distributed

332
00:25:52,000 --> 00:26:00,920
computing experience where an AI, you
know, an AI bought can say it's

333
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,880
this, I'm going to fix it
now. That's not what it is.

334
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:07,400
It's really about like that that bot
still has to talk to Tier three,

335
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,839
right, Like we are still tier
three and we need to be able to

336
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,000
look and see. But it's really
just about making that faster and saying,

337
00:26:15,039 --> 00:26:18,240
hey, there, you know there
is a carriage return here in this script

338
00:26:18,319 --> 00:26:25,160
and there shouldn't be, and if
you fix that, it'll probably it'll probably

339
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:32,279
resolve this. I think that's kind
of the that's the that's what everyone's sort

340
00:26:32,319 --> 00:26:36,079
of working towards right now. And
I think different different companies are different to

341
00:26:36,519 --> 00:26:42,000
our are further along and different certain
disciplines. It's easier to get get further

342
00:26:42,079 --> 00:26:45,079
along because automation has been part of
it for a long time, so it's

343
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,839
easier to kind of get there.
But for us, where we are at

344
00:26:49,079 --> 00:26:52,319
is if I, you know,
I say, we can answer any question

345
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,279
about your network, the networks you
own or the networks that you don't.

346
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:02,000
That's true. And now we have
a quick your assistant, and we have

347
00:27:02,039 --> 00:27:08,920
an interface called Journeys that allows you
to essentially have a chat GPT like session

348
00:27:10,039 --> 00:27:12,680
with Kentich where you say, hey, you know, compare the bandwidth like

349
00:27:12,839 --> 00:27:19,599
on on on these devices over the
last month and show me or or you

350
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,920
know, what are my what are
my top consumers? You can ask any

351
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,599
kind of questions, show me that
my devices that are in this region and

352
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:32,160
what are the status of all of
them? And sort them by you know,

353
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:36,079
you can do all of that and
and instead of doing it in our

354
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:41,880
guy, in our guy data exp
like I was describing earlier, where you've

355
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,119
got to, you know, find
all the attributes that you care about and

356
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,519
check them all. When you have
like such high cardinality data and you have

357
00:27:48,599 --> 00:27:52,640
like a heavy ability to manipulate it, it's a lot of checkboxes. It's

358
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,039
a lot. It's kind of a
lot to look at, and it's hard

359
00:27:56,039 --> 00:28:03,920
to create a UI that feels really
easy to use. But I think the

360
00:28:03,279 --> 00:28:11,039
the chat, the natural language natural
language query of facility really helps us like

361
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:17,160
do that data democratization right, because
you know you will. You're afraid of

362
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,160
the network, but you probably know
what kind of question you have. You

363
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:25,279
could start asking, and then the
query assistant in the journey especially, you

364
00:28:25,279 --> 00:28:27,359
can look back and see, like
what questions did other people ask, because

365
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:32,000
like we said, sometimes it's the
same thing again that happens, right,

366
00:28:32,039 --> 00:28:36,000
So if you want to go back
and look at what query's folks made before

367
00:28:36,079 --> 00:28:41,200
and what the so they started with
this question, but they finished their session

368
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,200
and they answered the question here at
the end. That was what really led

369
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,240
them to understand what was going on. You can look back through that and

370
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:53,200
see you know what was that root
cause essentially, and then I think the

371
00:28:53,240 --> 00:29:00,519
next step of that for us is
suggesting what questions to ask next, suggesting

372
00:29:00,519 --> 00:29:03,119
what the root cause might be.
You know, when this problem shows up

373
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,759
a lot of times, here's the
answer. So that's what we are working

374
00:29:07,799 --> 00:29:14,599
towards. Yeah, and I think
you said before it's about finding the unknown

375
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,640
unknowns, and I feel like that
may be something where AI helps us a

376
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,799
lot there in discovering those. And
I'm sort of curious if any interesting things

377
00:29:22,839 --> 00:29:26,599
have already popped out that wouldn't have
been so obvious either if you were looking

378
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:32,240
at the dashboards yourself or had to
create the queries yourself, because that sort

379
00:29:32,279 --> 00:29:36,000
of goes in the long lines of
I already sort of know what the problem

380
00:29:36,039 --> 00:29:37,640
is, but I want the data
to prove it. And I think there

381
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:42,200
is this challenge of well, I
don't even know where to start. Give

382
00:29:42,279 --> 00:29:45,720
me something, you know, suggest
to me something, and maybe I'll pull

383
00:29:45,759 --> 00:29:52,160
at that instead. Yeah, we
definitely have kind of a splash page with

384
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,920
a bunch of sample a bunch of
kind of sample queries on it, so

385
00:29:56,039 --> 00:29:57,640
you can just click and get started, like, Okay, I'll jump into

386
00:29:59,079 --> 00:30:02,880
jump into this and vestigation. I
don't know if I have any stories of

387
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,319
like the the unexpected of findings,
but that's a really good one too.

388
00:30:07,359 --> 00:30:11,000
I mean, we were talking a
little bit about marketing. That's a really

389
00:30:11,039 --> 00:30:14,440
good one to dig up. I
think this is like, you know,

390
00:30:14,799 --> 00:30:17,960
how long would it have taken you
to figure out that this is the problem

391
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:22,200
or how long would it have taken
you to observe this difference? I think

392
00:30:22,279 --> 00:30:27,559
I would say for kent Tick though, there are a lot of very talented

393
00:30:27,559 --> 00:30:32,039
network engineers who have been using Kentick
to dig into their flow and their metrics

394
00:30:32,079 --> 00:30:36,079
for quite quite some time. So
I would I would hesitate to say that

395
00:30:36,119 --> 00:30:38,680
AI can find anything that they can't
find, because I think like a super

396
00:30:38,759 --> 00:30:47,759
user of kent tick is still far
more powerful than an AI bought of kentig.

397
00:30:48,079 --> 00:30:53,400
But together, like together they can
be unstoppable. The idea, Yeah,

398
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,079
but I will look for that.
And so that's one of the areas

399
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:03,400
where something like kentik and can help
out. Because we've talked about how what

400
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,200
we talked about how like you know, some of us have like really not

401
00:31:07,799 --> 00:31:10,680
putting myself in this group, but
there are people who have like really really

402
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:17,640
deep, long areas of expertise,
and you know, like as I get

403
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:19,319
older, I kind of feel like
that's more and more of my job is

404
00:31:19,359 --> 00:31:26,759
to distill what I've done over the
last thirty years so that people entering the

405
00:31:26,839 --> 00:31:30,200
industry right now don't have to relearn
all of that stuff. And I think

406
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,839
that's one of the things that like
companies like Kentick do is it's like,

407
00:31:34,559 --> 00:31:40,079
hey, based on all of this
stuff that you don't know about, here's

408
00:31:40,079 --> 00:31:44,000
this thing that you might want to
google. Yeah, yeah, no,

409
00:31:44,119 --> 00:31:48,160
I think that that's that's going to
be. That's going to be where this

410
00:31:48,359 --> 00:31:52,960
really has legs. I mean,
it's really nice to be able to explore

411
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,920
the data in natural language and you
can ask it in any language you want.

412
00:31:57,039 --> 00:32:00,640
So that's helpful even for like to
sell folks on your team as we

413
00:32:00,759 --> 00:32:05,200
get globalized. So I think there's
like a lot of power just in the

414
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:10,079
entry level of equery assistant. But
yeah, where there where the where I

415
00:32:10,119 --> 00:32:16,440
start to drop my AI skepticism in
earnest is where it can say like,

416
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:23,960
yeah, you you are you know, because like we said, if it's

417
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,640
a different problem every time, you
really do have to work on this for

418
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,440
twenty years to see like a full
range of of what it could be.

419
00:32:31,559 --> 00:32:37,559
And for these folks who are dealing
with you know, heterogeneous infrastructure where they

420
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:42,440
may have some really old legacy applications
that they're maintaining or you know, we

421
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,480
call them legacy applications. They have
some applications that are still working, still

422
00:32:45,519 --> 00:32:49,680
making money, and they don't want
to change anything because and the bosses don't

423
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,400
want to change anything, right,
And then they have all this new infrastructure

424
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:58,319
that's getting built and they're they're running
workloads on Kubernetes and this, so they've

425
00:32:58,319 --> 00:33:02,079
got containerized stuff and they're also doing
serverful stuff and they need to like keep

426
00:33:02,119 --> 00:33:06,440
track of all of that. How
can you hold the context of all of

427
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,480
that in your mind? And I
think that's way beyond what any of us

428
00:33:09,559 --> 00:33:15,000
who were kind of doing things in
the old days. I think it's very

429
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:20,279
different now. I think that they
have a lot more context to keep track

430
00:33:20,319 --> 00:33:22,799
of. So what I'm really happy
to hear you say that will that that

431
00:33:22,799 --> 00:33:30,119
that's your goal is to help them. It's essentially a shortcut, right right.

432
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:35,880
Yeah. When I think about like
old school OPS culture and definitely old

433
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,960
school like Linux culture, it's a
bit you're smiling. You're smiling. You

434
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:44,200
know what I'm going to say,
Right, it's not that it's not that

435
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,480
it's not the most welcoming environment,
or it wasn't I should say it wasn't

436
00:33:47,519 --> 00:33:52,400
the most welcoming environment. Yeah,
I think it was a lot of Like

437
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,440
I mean, you can it's all
over stack overflow if you want to go

438
00:33:54,519 --> 00:34:00,599
to stack over It's like people are
like, I can't belie leave you would

439
00:34:00,599 --> 00:34:07,039
post that, like, you know, people very rudely explaining how it's just

440
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:13,039
unacceptable to post such a question without
posting your entire you know, and like

441
00:34:13,119 --> 00:34:15,760
don't post your entire log trace in
here, like to cut cut through,

442
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:20,119
like show me that you did the
research yourself, right, you try to

443
00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:25,559
understand this yourself and then I will
help you. And that there's really like

444
00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:32,039
a tension between that cause I think
that that definitely, like the potentially discourage

445
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:37,880
meant of asking questions is of course
also part of old school network engineering culture.

446
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,719
There's a lot there's a lot of
similarity there, and I think it's

447
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:45,599
really the same culture. And then
there are but there are people like yourself

448
00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:51,719
who want to benevolent folks who want
to pass along that knowledge and kind of

449
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,000
be greater than the sum of our
parts. So as a as a marketer,

450
00:34:55,320 --> 00:35:00,519
I feel like I have to sort
of appeal to like I have to

451
00:35:00,559 --> 00:35:08,000
appeal to that culture that that where
credibility and like doing the legwork is really

452
00:35:08,119 --> 00:35:13,920
valued and really important. But at
the same time, like I mean,

453
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,719
the the boss doesn't really want to
pay for the legwork if it doesn't need

454
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,679
to be done. If your pains
or your talent, then you want to

455
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:22,760
get you want you want that talent
to spread around the team. You don't

456
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:28,039
want to be siloed into one person. And then also there's this new I

457
00:35:28,039 --> 00:35:34,599
think. I think Kubernetes was a
huge part of that sort of transformation from

458
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,360
the from the old culture that you
were talking about to the new culture.

459
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:42,440
I think the way that the Kubernetes
community like came up and then was managed

460
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,480
has been a huge part of that. Do you think so are there other

461
00:35:45,599 --> 00:35:50,719
other factors? Like why why are
those answers not on stack overflow, not

462
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:52,840
not getting on stack overflow as much
anymore? Like what's changed? I guess

463
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:58,159
my question. I feel like right
around the time that Kubernetes came out,

464
00:35:58,199 --> 00:36:01,800
there was like a pretty significant shift
of people. There was like enough people

465
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:09,559
who found each other online that were
tired of that type of response, and

466
00:36:10,199 --> 00:36:15,199
I think it came together in several
areas, Kubernetes being one of those.

467
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,840
But one of the things that continues
to make me laugh is whenever they said

468
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:23,480
that chat gpt was trained using stack
Overflow answers, I was like, oh,

469
00:36:23,559 --> 00:36:29,800
this should be good, I mean, great, brilliant, but also

470
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:34,559
wow, chat doesn't ever scold me. Though I don't think I've ever been

471
00:36:34,599 --> 00:36:39,920
scolded by chat GPT. I mean, I think maybe not chat gpt itself,

472
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:45,880
but I do recall some of the
other lms giving responses through some of

473
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:51,800
the other websites that may have been
using the same underlying model about that they

474
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,440
were wrong to ask the question,
and then when saying like it, and

475
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:58,719
there was a whole back and forth
about it, and really just over and

476
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:00,840
over again saying no, no,
you have no idea what you're talking about,

477
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:06,800
even though clearly like everyone knows that
the person that was chatting was right,

478
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:12,000
but the blot was definitely confused.
You actually said something super interesting that

479
00:37:12,039 --> 00:37:15,440
I don't want to gloss over,
is that potentially the problems that are being

480
00:37:15,519 --> 00:37:21,880
solved today are actually more challenging,
they require more contact than they did in

481
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,480
the past. And I sort of
want to pick your brain on that a

482
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:29,239
little bit, because that seems like
it's really interesting that maybe it's possible that

483
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:31,559
the problems today are more complicated,
are more difficult to solve, and that

484
00:37:31,639 --> 00:37:36,639
we won't be able to do it
with the same tools that we've been utilizing

485
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,119
up to this point. Yeah,
I mean, I think I think to

486
00:37:39,199 --> 00:37:47,480
clarify there, maybe the individual problems
themselves are still like when you do know

487
00:37:47,559 --> 00:37:53,840
what the root cause is, maybe
that root cause is no more sophisticated in

488
00:37:53,960 --> 00:38:00,440
nature than like a problem of your
But I think what makes it, what

489
00:38:00,559 --> 00:38:05,519
makes it more challenging, is just
the I mean, we're talking about cardinality

490
00:38:05,559 --> 00:38:08,639
of data, and it's really it's
kind of it's just like the volume of

491
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:15,920
different like the probability that it would
be any one thing is so much lower,

492
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:21,840
I think because of the distributed nature
of our systems. But then it

493
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,360
is also it is also when we
talk about like things things, when I

494
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:30,960
talk about things being so software defined, I think that also adds another So

495
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:36,880
maybe there is more complexity introduced by
like the programmatic nature of so many things,

496
00:38:37,159 --> 00:38:40,960
so you can have like like is
this really a problem with a thing

497
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,199
that I'm trying to manage, or
is it a problem with like the way

498
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:50,719
that the thing that I'm trying to
manage is accessible or is administered. So

499
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:54,239
I think there's just all of those
layers, add add more automation, but

500
00:38:54,320 --> 00:39:00,440
then also add like the potential for
failure. And I think part of it

501
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:07,000
is also because are we ever using
things exactly as they were intended? Like

502
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,079
when you design a product, when
you design a tool or a platform,

503
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:16,760
or design a piece of infrastructure,
you're oftentimes thinking about doing it, you

504
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:22,000
know, in a specific context.
And then when you take those things out

505
00:39:22,039 --> 00:39:30,400
into the wild again heterogeneous plan they're
trying to they're trying to kind of put

506
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:36,719
it all together, right, trying
to trying to connect connect things together and

507
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:43,480
integrate different systems. And that's where
I mean, those are like the longest

508
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,440
Googling sessions, Right. You try
to you try to, like you try

509
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:51,400
to interface one thing with another,
and you think it's You're like, well,

510
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:52,559
this could go one of three ways, Like it could be super easy,

511
00:39:52,559 --> 00:39:55,360
the exact way I think that you're
supposed to do it. It could

512
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:59,360
be like this middle way where I
have to try a few things, but

513
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:01,639
it's one of these answers that are
on the internet, or it could just

514
00:40:01,679 --> 00:40:05,639
like fail kind of silently and I
don't know why it doesn't work, And

515
00:40:05,679 --> 00:40:07,280
then I'm kind of stuck and I
have to figure out like do I need

516
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,239
to figure out a different way to
integrate these together? Like is this not

517
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,360
going to work? I need to
figure out when to cut over and give

518
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:15,599
up. And I think there's there's
just more of that now, right,

519
00:40:15,679 --> 00:40:20,639
Like they're more potential for that for
that to come up. I would you

520
00:40:20,679 --> 00:40:23,559
agree? Yeah, I mean I
think you really hit on something with the

521
00:40:23,639 --> 00:40:28,639
volume, where in the past just
the number of requests you'd have to any

522
00:40:28,679 --> 00:40:31,400
individual service is such a low number. With the number of users you have,

523
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:35,199
that's still providing a ton of value. You could go through the logs

524
00:40:35,199 --> 00:40:37,880
manually, right, you know,
you think about your own operating system,

525
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:42,239
you can go to the cystlog and
see what's there or whatever you're using and

526
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,599
actually see what applications crash and what
the log message are, you know,

527
00:40:45,599 --> 00:40:49,599
if you're debugging locally. But when
you talk about the production systems now today

528
00:40:49,599 --> 00:40:53,000
in twenty twenty four, yeah,
I mean you're not going through that manually.

529
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:58,519
Now. I think we're at a
point now where the level of abstraction

530
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:04,559
is so high that it's really really
fine line between whether we are software engineers

531
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:08,960
or whether we're Rube Goldberg engineers.
Were integration engineers for sure, one hundred

532
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:14,119
percent. Well, you know you're
right there on that. Like most of

533
00:41:14,119 --> 00:41:16,880
the things, most of the time
year spending out there is connecting components together

534
00:41:17,079 --> 00:41:20,960
to deliver the value. You're not
designed. I mean, you could be

535
00:41:21,039 --> 00:41:23,920
on the cutting edge of designing the
new silicon or even the LM model today,

536
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,760
but like lots of companies have spun
up your building on top of that,

537
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,320
which is hundreds of layers of abstraction. Deep. Yeah, and if

538
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:35,440
it's not working, it is that
thing of like not knowing where to start.

539
00:41:35,519 --> 00:41:37,239
I can't let it pass that,
you said, Rube Goldberg, Rube

540
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:42,599
Goldberg machine. When I worked at
Armory. When I worked at Armory,

541
00:41:42,639 --> 00:41:46,480
which was a proprietary distribution of US
spin Occur, the continuous delivery tool developed

542
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:52,280
at Netflix. I was there.
What was I? I was director of

543
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,719
open source and really like an open
source DevRel person, and I had this

544
00:41:55,840 --> 00:42:02,039
brilliant idea that we would buy this. The culture there was very like pend

545
00:42:02,119 --> 00:42:06,039
money on the things that invest in
the things that you think would be good

546
00:42:06,039 --> 00:42:07,519
for the company, and like you're
empowered to do that. I was like,

547
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:12,679
I feel empowered to build a very
large roof Goldberg machine and you are

548
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:16,079
going to cart this thing out to
every event, Like we're gonna go to

549
00:42:16,199 --> 00:42:21,079
AW. This is going to be
our big AWS reinvent bid where we have

550
00:42:21,079 --> 00:42:23,559
a giant rube Goldberg machine and then
we do demonstration. I still think that

551
00:42:23,599 --> 00:42:27,679
would be fun. Now somebody's going
to listen to this and lift that idea

552
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,599
who has a much bigger budget than
I do. But you know, it

553
00:42:30,679 --> 00:42:34,639
really is about it really is a
Goldberg machine, like it really is,

554
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,400
And that would be great to go
to AWS or reinvent or whatever and just

555
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:42,360
see a big, huge roobe Goldberg
machine. It just goes all the way

556
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,199
up to the ceiling of the auditorium. Yeah, and then it's like,

557
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:50,360
ah, I mean probably this is
canceled. Maybe, but like I think

558
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:55,400
about Pee Wee Herman and the opening
where he's making his breakfast and the egg

559
00:42:55,480 --> 00:43:00,679
comes in this thing. What I'm
telling you marketing gold marketing goal that,

560
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:04,719
but it really that was kind of
the message. It's so funny because if

561
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,480
the message was the same there,
it's like we have all these sort of

562
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:14,440
riddle we called it brittle. It's
another marketing term, like your brittle path

563
00:43:14,559 --> 00:43:19,239
to production sort of how we talked
about it. And sometimes it really does

564
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:22,719
feel like a rut Boldberg machine.
And I think, I think when I'm

565
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:27,199
looking at that from the observability perspective, it's really the same visualization. It's

566
00:43:27,199 --> 00:43:32,079
like, yeah, you have this
bespoke way that each one of your applications

567
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:39,320
is getting these very basic communications across
like to and from the user and and

568
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:46,760
getting the data and making getting getting
in you know, doing the the the

569
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:52,639
crud on the data in a way
that's secure. And there's actually a lot

570
00:43:52,679 --> 00:43:58,119
that goes into that. But really, like it does feel like a root

571
00:43:58,159 --> 00:44:00,239
Bulber machine, I think. But
it's all was still the same stuff.

572
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:08,320
So it's just interesting how it's more
it's it's more more abstraction over what are

573
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:13,239
fundamentally the same types of interactions.
But but what has changed a lot is

574
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,199
the user experience. Right, Yeah, for sure, we've gotten the entire

575
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:22,639
planet addicted to an impeccable user experience
and that's that, and we can never

576
00:44:22,679 --> 00:44:24,679
come back from that. We now
we get it. I wish that were

577
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:29,239
the case, but I still feel
like I see some UIs every every day.

578
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:34,760
That made question who is running UX
over at that any government website?

579
00:44:35,119 --> 00:44:40,480
Oh yeah, well yeah, that's
all I mean, government healthcare. It's

580
00:44:40,519 --> 00:44:45,599
like yeah, and it's but it's
actually like it makes me think about So.

581
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:52,079
I once interviewed with a company that
made software for planes and they told

582
00:44:52,119 --> 00:44:58,199
me about the sort of the I
I ended up not taking not taking this

583
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,480
job, but it was really interesting
and they were like, we have been

584
00:45:01,559 --> 00:45:07,360
we are such a like pioneering company
in this space because we've figured out that

585
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:12,800
if we can run the software on
a tablet, like we can run the

586
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,840
software on an iPad, then we're
able to get around so much regulatory stuff

587
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:22,559
because but the PSA has rules or
no that at Federal Aviation Administration has all

588
00:45:22,599 --> 00:45:28,679
these rules about what is physically bolted
to the plane. So if something is

589
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:35,159
physically connected to the plane, then
it has to go through literally years of

590
00:45:35,199 --> 00:45:42,119
like safety safety and regulatory process to
check to make sure that it's safe.

591
00:45:42,519 --> 00:45:46,559
But if your software system is not
physically connected to the plane and you can

592
00:45:46,599 --> 00:45:51,000
like lift it off. Then they
didn't have to go through the same regulatory

593
00:45:51,039 --> 00:45:52,719
procedure. And I thought that was
so fascinating that they were like, that's

594
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:58,800
why airplane systems are so far behind, because they are not, like they

595
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:01,159
can't. So if you want want
to change the UX right, it's going

596
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:06,519
to take you like five years.
So that's why I think that for government

597
00:46:06,559 --> 00:46:07,679
stuff. But I don't know.
I think for government all a lot of

598
00:46:07,679 --> 00:46:10,880
times they just don't put the money
into it, and they don't it's just

599
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:14,280
not a priority. Well I mean, I mean, I think we know

600
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,280
that there is definitely money going into
it. It's just you know where the

601
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:25,360
mondy is going is it's an episode
on its own. It probably a watch

602
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:29,920
list somewhere if we have. Yeah, I just maybe that's a bad topic.

603
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:32,559
You know, I've worked in a
lot of different industries that have varying

604
00:46:32,599 --> 00:46:37,840
degrees of regulation. There is definitely
something to be said about the amount of

605
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:44,239
regulation and the length of the feedback
loop for improvements, for sure. Yeah,

606
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:46,400
yeah, I think that's that's part
of it. But but yeah,

607
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:51,519
you said people aren't addicted to great, Well, people are addicted to great

608
00:46:51,599 --> 00:46:55,480
UX but you still have to find
it right to go and find those tools

609
00:46:55,480 --> 00:47:00,400
and platforms that have that that have
the space that you want. I don't

610
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:05,079
know. I think if I think
about though, like how much things have

611
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:12,920
changed in the last decade in terms
of just what could like what consumer expectations

612
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:15,639
are, I think, uh,
I think it has changed a lot,

613
00:47:15,679 --> 00:47:17,360
and I think a lot of people
have worked really hard on making that happen.

614
00:47:17,519 --> 00:47:22,800
So it's pretty cool, yeah,
for sure. I mean we are

615
00:47:23,039 --> 00:47:34,599
very much in a position where our
expectations are you know, millisecond latency from

616
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:39,320
from applications, and for the most
part, I feel like our expectations are

617
00:47:39,599 --> 00:47:44,800
rarely not met when it comes to
that, and that's a huge amount of

618
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:51,599
effort. And under the cover's work, you know that you can hit a

619
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:54,320
vast majority of the websites and you
you click the button and it makes a

620
00:47:54,320 --> 00:48:01,719
call to the back end API and
returns the data and in a millisecond time

621
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:08,719
frame, and tying that back to
what you're doing. The layers of networking

622
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:16,440
that are happening there is just really
tough to visualize, much less troubleshoot whenever

623
00:48:16,519 --> 00:48:23,639
it does breach that one hundred millisecond
threshold. I'm not breaking anyone understanding here.

624
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:30,360
There is actually some resource posts that
the research says that the more effort

625
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:34,880
that a user puts in to having
an action executed, the longer they actually

626
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:38,320
expect to wait. And if you
respond too fast, that they'll feel like,

627
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:44,239
wait, I don't understand how could
that be the case? So like

628
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:51,079
this actually does happen. So we
internally actually especially in r UIs for authors,

629
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:54,480
we do actually measure the amount of
expectation for the effort that a user

630
00:48:54,519 --> 00:48:58,679
should have to put in for those
things and figure out like what is their

631
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:01,480
expectation going to be for how long
that activity takes if they expect that thing

632
00:49:01,519 --> 00:49:05,599
to happen really fast, and those
make it into our slas. And for

633
00:49:05,679 --> 00:49:09,000
things that actually seem like they're super
complicated, well there is a little bit

634
00:49:09,039 --> 00:49:13,039
of fudging that we have to do
there is to make it seem like that

635
00:49:13,559 --> 00:49:17,039
they get the appropriate thing, Like
there are intentional weights in some situations to

636
00:49:17,119 --> 00:49:21,480
make because it's too fast, you
know, we respond in like one millisecond,

637
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:23,000
they're like, I don't understand how
it can be that fast. That

638
00:49:23,039 --> 00:49:25,760
doesn't seem right, So you make
it wait a little bit longer, and

639
00:49:27,519 --> 00:49:30,320
like it also has a UI impact
though too, because if you make an

640
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:32,920
action in the page would refresh or
something like that, afterwards, you don't

641
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:37,440
have any time to say, hey, your thing was successful. So actually

642
00:49:37,559 --> 00:49:43,519
delaying that has a much better user
experience than just immediately performing the next thing

643
00:49:43,559 --> 00:49:46,800
in some circumstances. That is really
interesting. So that's really like we're almost

644
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:53,280
hitting the threshold or something like hating
the threshold of human like human computational power

645
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:59,039
or something. I'm going to have
to reach out to my buddy on our

646
00:49:59,079 --> 00:50:06,320
product team who have been working with
who is putting out our network monitoring system.

647
00:50:06,559 --> 00:50:08,960
So network monitoring systems, you,
I don't know if you fuse them.

648
00:50:09,079 --> 00:50:12,760
You may have used some of the
free ones like Libra and MS.

649
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:16,880
Everybody has one. An everybody with
an on premise network device of any kind

650
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:20,199
has some kind of thing that's going
to tell them if it's up or down

651
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:25,480
right, and they almost all network
monitoring systems are really old and crufty,

652
00:50:25,639 --> 00:50:31,079
like they're your federal website version of
a tool. And that's like, actually,

653
00:50:31,119 --> 00:50:37,079
so we put out this new network
network monitoring system that we released at

654
00:50:37,119 --> 00:50:40,639
the end of January and it does
have it. It has the query as

655
00:50:40,679 --> 00:50:45,039
system that I talked about before built
in. But it's really interesting to try

656
00:50:45,039 --> 00:50:51,159
to write marketing copy for this and
figure out how to sell it to people,

657
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:53,920
because really what we're selling is like
you know, no, no,

658
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:59,199
no, we haven't really like yes
we have we have like a data explore

659
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:02,559
metrics explorer that lets you explore all
these unknown unknowns we have AI. It's

660
00:51:02,599 --> 00:51:09,360
a SaaS tool and that's all exciting, but also under the covers it's doing

661
00:51:09,599 --> 00:51:13,960
the same thing. It's pulling your
devices to find out if they're up or

662
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:15,440
down. But anyway, one of
the you just made me think about one

663
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:20,119
of the things we talk about as
a selling point is browser refresh is not

664
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:24,599
required. So like we're literally like
selling that it's a responsive uh, that

665
00:51:24,639 --> 00:51:30,800
it's a responsive app. So if
my if my device gets if I'm onboarding

666
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:36,199
a new device and I'm waiting for
it to finish and then it and then

667
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:38,119
it comes up, that's just going
to happen. I don't have to refresh

668
00:51:38,159 --> 00:51:42,719
the page. But really, so
going back to our conversation constantly, going

669
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:46,079
back to our conversation about incident,
if you have if you think about a

670
00:51:46,199 --> 00:51:52,519
network person trying to like they they
it was the network, right, They

671
00:51:52,599 --> 00:51:59,480
figured out that it was this device
that was that that was heaving a problem

672
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:04,760
that was had a hardware or a
software problem usually and they go to fix

673
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:07,360
it, like they go log into
the device and reset it or something or

674
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:12,400
change threshold, and then they have
you have to wait to see if it

675
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:15,480
works, right, like before you
can go back to flee or go back

676
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:17,039
to your regular job. But we
all sometimes before you can go back to

677
00:52:17,039 --> 00:52:20,480
sleep, you have to see if
it works. And so we have this

678
00:52:20,559 --> 00:52:22,440
image and I really want to make
an ad for this of just someone just

679
00:52:22,519 --> 00:52:27,400
like refreshing the page, refreshing the
page, refreshing the page, and they're

680
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,599
looking to see like for that change. So I think it's definitely a fine

681
00:52:30,639 --> 00:52:34,400
line, Like you're right, it
could be too fast, but there are

682
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:37,440
a lot of systems out there that
are nowhere near too fast. And we're

683
00:52:37,519 --> 00:52:40,440
so. But it's funny because my
colleague, my PM colleague is like,

684
00:52:42,079 --> 00:52:44,599
I'm like, you know, we're
got to saw that it's a SaaS tool,

685
00:52:44,639 --> 00:52:47,760
and I think I put on a
I put on something the other day

686
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:51,760
SaaS Innovation and he was like,
don't say that you know, SAS has

687
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:54,360
been around for a long time.
I know, I know that, but

688
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:58,760
it really is innovative in this space. So it's just it's funny. I

689
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:01,880
think the point here is like it's
all relative, right, But it is

690
00:53:02,119 --> 00:53:07,199
nice when you need to use a
tool, like you have a tool like

691
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:10,039
a like an NMS and you've got
something like you've got to monitor those devices,

692
00:53:10,079 --> 00:53:15,280
it's nice to have a it's nice
to have a platform that doesn't make

693
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:20,559
you feel like you're living in you
know, I don't know what you're two

694
00:53:20,599 --> 00:53:25,039
thousand and four that may be even
still too recent. I mean you made

695
00:53:25,039 --> 00:53:30,599
me think of like every router software
that that like not only do you need

696
00:53:30,639 --> 00:53:34,320
to wait, but it tells you
do not refresh the page because if you

697
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:38,280
do, like I am afraid that
it will brick itself. It's gonna it's

698
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:43,119
gonna somehow lose your request it refresh
the page. Yeah, it was like,

699
00:53:43,199 --> 00:53:45,920
what what is it doing? Is
it? It's just like, what

700
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:47,599
what is it doing? Honestly?
Like and then it tells you if like

701
00:53:47,599 --> 00:53:52,280
another admin logs into the router at
the same time, like I'm sorry,

702
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:55,119
only one admin can be logged in
at this time. It's like Okay,

703
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:59,239
I mean fine, just tell me
just me read only mode that right,

704
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:00,760
like you know, let me see
the data, but don't change it for

705
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:04,920
whatever reason. No, totally,
So you can see how this has been,

706
00:54:05,079 --> 00:54:10,800
like the this has been like selling
a network monitoring system in twenty twenty

707
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:16,039
four. Is it just about the
un sexiest task that a technical marketer could

708
00:54:16,039 --> 00:54:20,199
have, right? Like it is
not Like we are not and like you

709
00:54:20,199 --> 00:54:23,719
you mentioned SNMP traps at the beginning, we actually came out with this tool

710
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:29,840
and we're like we we're not gonna
support SNMP traps because you know, it's

711
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:34,039
UDP and it's not very secure,
and we were were a little uncomfortable with

712
00:54:34,079 --> 00:54:37,239
that. But as we've gone out
into the field to talk to folks about

713
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:42,599
this tool, and we've onboarded like
some huge enterprises into using this tool,

714
00:54:44,039 --> 00:54:46,320
and we've found people out there in
these conversations who are like, well,

715
00:54:46,599 --> 00:54:51,559
I'm using SNMP traps extensively and it's
essentially but like you know why they're doing

716
00:54:51,599 --> 00:54:57,360
it because it's event Like it was
really really really early implementation of essentially like

717
00:54:57,519 --> 00:55:00,559
event based monitoring. So the device
has an event and it can go,

718
00:55:00,679 --> 00:55:04,599
oh hey, I'm having a problem
like that was cool, right, and

719
00:55:04,639 --> 00:55:07,679
it still is cool and a lot
of people are really relying on that,

720
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:12,599
but for us to come out and
say, well, sorry, that's too

721
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:15,559
crafty, like we are not we
are not going to support that because we

722
00:55:15,599 --> 00:55:17,159
do not try like we can't do
that. So we have to build the

723
00:55:17,159 --> 00:55:20,280
support. We have to build the
support, and we have to find a

724
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:27,800
way to build it in a way
that will that will be that we that

725
00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:30,920
we can feel like it's secure enough
to give over to our customers, but

726
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:34,840
they can feel like it fits into
their workflow. So anyway, that's a

727
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:37,039
that's a digression from like the browser
refresh thing, but I think there's a

728
00:55:37,039 --> 00:55:42,440
lot too like that. It's been
a fun marketing challenge to try to to

729
00:55:42,519 --> 00:55:45,599
try to market this tool that's been
around for it's been around for twenty five

730
00:55:45,679 --> 00:55:49,840
years, right. I mean we
actually did something very similar in our space

731
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:55,360
for so we offer off for oursas
and we started by saying, no,

732
00:55:55,480 --> 00:56:00,360
we're not going to have passwords support
by default, like the this is this

733
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:04,360
is absolutely technology. It's insecure by
design, there's no there's no fixing that.

734
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:07,519
And we wanted the B two B
market and it's been fine. Uh,

735
00:56:07,679 --> 00:56:09,519
it was fine for a very long
time, and then we started getting

736
00:56:09,519 --> 00:56:14,519
customers who wanted to go into B
two C and have end users that didn't

737
00:56:14,519 --> 00:56:19,760
a sophistication. And so we've created
a clear separation in both marketing and how

738
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:22,440
our docs are written to be clear
like, hey, if you're in the

739
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:24,880
B two B context, like you
really don't want to use this, like

740
00:56:25,119 --> 00:56:28,760
look at the research. It's going
to tell you why, there's no reason.

741
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:30,559
And if you're in B two C, you know, maybe there's not

742
00:56:30,559 --> 00:56:32,800
anything you can do about that.
Yeah, no, I think that,

743
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:37,880
Oh gosh, this is the worst
term. But they call that thought leadership,

744
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:42,519
right, you're educating, educating your
customer. That's what really makes me

745
00:56:42,519 --> 00:56:45,920
want to bar But I hear people
say every day that's the worst. But

746
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:47,360
anyway, No, you're educating your
customers about like, hey, you know,

747
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:52,519
and I think I think that's valuable. I think I think technical folks,

748
00:56:52,559 --> 00:56:55,119
like when you're shopping for a when
you're shopping for a product, you

749
00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:59,920
do want to know that the vendor
that that that the vendor you're working with

750
00:57:00,119 --> 00:57:02,480
is opinionated about the right way to
do things and has really thought about that

751
00:57:02,519 --> 00:57:06,360
at scale and looked at how other
people are doing it, like you want

752
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:09,679
those best practices because again, when
you're trying to navigate this through Goldberg machine,

753
00:57:10,039 --> 00:57:14,199
there's a lot there and you don't
necessarily know what the best practices are

754
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:15,679
for everything, and like everything else, you got to google that and you

755
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:19,599
know, and it's good to have
a trusted source for that. So I

756
00:57:19,599 --> 00:57:22,440
think that's the right way to I
think that's the right way to handle that's

757
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:24,360
just be really honest about it,
no, for sure, because otherwise you

758
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:28,800
don't really have a differentiator, right, Like anyone can write the technology that

759
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:32,000
you don't see the service that's running. Anyone can hire the right people with

760
00:57:32,159 --> 00:57:36,480
enough time and effort and you know, maybe even get funding. I mean,

761
00:57:36,599 --> 00:57:38,159
like where do you differentiate, right, It's going to have to be

762
00:57:38,239 --> 00:57:43,960
on the way your company mindset or
values really really operate. Yeah, it's

763
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:47,599
really what's left there. Yeah,
totally all right. And so that's a

764
00:57:47,639 --> 00:57:52,679
great segue into the topic that I
wanted to talk about here because a lot

765
00:57:52,679 --> 00:57:59,440
of that, you know, you're
talking about implementing a cultural change, you

766
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:02,519
know, like the S and MP
traps. Like someone who says, hey,

767
00:58:02,559 --> 00:58:07,039
these S and MP traps have been
rock solid, reliable for me for

768
00:58:07,159 --> 00:58:10,119
twenty five years. Why am I
going to change? And so you have

769
00:58:10,199 --> 00:58:17,760
this this change that you have to
implement which goes into marketing. And I

770
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:24,079
really think that that's like an unspoken
skill that successful engineers have, is the

771
00:58:24,119 --> 00:58:31,639
ability to understand marketing and know how
to introduce these topics and like convince people

772
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:38,320
to your line of thinking. So
with your background, Roslyn, your role

773
00:58:38,559 --> 00:58:45,639
is marketing to technical people. So
how do you you know, for just

774
00:58:45,199 --> 00:58:49,760
at the risk of saying something stupid, because that's kind of my role here,

775
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:54,280
how do you make your marketing content
nerdy enough to be believable? Yeah,

776
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:58,519
No, that's a great that's a
great question. I think where it

777
00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:01,280
starts is you really have to have
the right and I mean not I'm not

778
00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:05,800
saying I'm the I'm necessarily the right
person, but you you have to have

779
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:09,239
We have a whole content team actually
of people who are like, Okay,

780
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:14,360
if you're a network engineering nerd,
which you're not, you'll know Doug Madori,

781
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:17,000
who whose director on our on our
content team, who is like gets

782
00:59:17,079 --> 00:59:23,320
called by the NSA and by other
federal, federal and international agencies to do

783
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:31,360
like tracing traffic, uh for like
to help with global like geopolitical stuff,

784
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:36,800
like he's the one who goes and
looks and understands what what Russia is doing

785
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:43,519
with the networks in Ukraine and so
uh that's an extreme example, but we

786
00:59:43,559 --> 00:59:49,199
have a variety of like folks who
were in the field, like we're we're

787
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:53,079
kind of wearing the wearing the shoes
of our customer and those are the people

788
00:59:53,079 --> 01:00:00,519
who write all of our blog posts
and they sort of promote the brand and

789
01:00:00,679 --> 01:00:07,440
me, so I I sort of
had some shoes that look like, you

790
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:10,440
know, look like I had some
systems engineering shoes at one point. They're

791
01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:14,480
still in my closet, but I
don't wear them very often anymore. And

792
01:00:14,519 --> 01:00:16,800
you know, like those skills go
away. So but with someone like me,

793
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:22,320
like I, I write what I'm
gonna write, like I write what

794
01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:27,320
I'm going to communicate to customers about
a product, and then a lot of

795
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:31,519
times I will So I mentioned my
product manager colleague working on that network monitoring

796
01:00:31,639 --> 01:00:37,320
tool. He also had his sort
of network engineering shoes that he put away

797
01:00:37,400 --> 01:00:44,000
much more recently, and then he
worked at a very prominent network monitoring company

798
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:46,280
before he came to Kentick, So
he's really like just like dug into the

799
01:00:46,320 --> 01:00:51,920
space and he is like my sounding
board for all this marketing stuff, and

800
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:55,280
we really we call it go to
market, like we we collaborate on stuff

801
01:00:55,320 --> 01:01:00,840
together. So I think it's really
about you mentioned like an an engineer who

802
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:05,400
has the skill of understanding marketing and
being able to communicate that across to their

803
01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:08,280
team and bring folks along. That's
really important. And I think that's the

804
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:14,480
skill that when you're working on marketing
in a B to B company for a

805
01:01:14,559 --> 01:01:17,119
highly technical product, which I have
now done at a bunch of different companies,

806
01:01:17,559 --> 01:01:22,280
Like cross functional collaboration is the name
of the game if you can get

807
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:25,440
because you've got your people in the
field right, especially if you're working at

808
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:29,400
a company that sells to enterprises and
it's a bigger thing. I think this

809
01:01:29,559 --> 01:01:31,599
was different for me at Render because
we were more of a a B to

810
01:01:31,639 --> 01:01:35,679
B company, but a bit more
of a direct to consumer model because people

811
01:01:35,719 --> 01:01:39,159
just go on to Render or Forroku
and they like set up their services and

812
01:01:39,199 --> 01:01:43,280
they're sort of self serving. So
that was a bit of a different model.

813
01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:45,760
But now I'm back in this sort
of enterprise selling model. Where you

814
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:52,239
have your sales folks and specifically sales
engineers and solutions architects who go out into

815
01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:57,480
the field and they're knee deep in
those customer problems like they're inside the root

816
01:01:57,559 --> 01:02:02,519
Goldberg machine trying to help the cutomer
find their way out, and so they

817
01:02:02,519 --> 01:02:08,360
really can see like those themes.
So sometimes having some of those people react

818
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:12,639
to your work, but it's for
that, it's more like listening. So

819
01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:17,840
I go on to our gong calls, like I listen to their conversations with

820
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:22,719
our customers. I listen to the
words that customers use to talk about their

821
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:27,159
problems, and I look for patterns, right, and then when I think

822
01:02:27,199 --> 01:02:30,559
I've found the patterns, then I
take those two my product manager colleagues or

823
01:02:30,679 --> 01:02:35,840
my or my my colleagues on the
content team who are more technical than I

824
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:37,320
am, and I say, hey, like, how does this land with

825
01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:40,760
you? And sometimes it lands really
well, and sometimes they have ideas,

826
01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:44,880
and then I got a massage those
ideas. But then what's interesting about it

827
01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:47,440
is like, so we just came
across this with a product that we're well

828
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:51,679
really all all of our products trying
to work towards this, Like you have

829
01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:55,480
your I call it practitioner messaging,
and then you have your buyer messaging,

830
01:02:57,239 --> 01:03:00,519
and they're different, but also in
our feet, well they're not that different

831
01:03:00,559 --> 01:03:05,920
because most of the buyers used to
be practitioners. And there's that credibility thing

832
01:03:06,039 --> 01:03:09,320
we talked about, that line of
like credibility I think is still really important

833
01:03:09,320 --> 01:03:14,599
in our field, and like you
can't be a buyer for a highly technical

834
01:03:14,599 --> 01:03:17,719
system and like run a highly technical
team if you don't if you if you

835
01:03:17,760 --> 01:03:22,719
don't, if you don't like demonstrate
that those shoes are still in your closet,

836
01:03:22,039 --> 01:03:27,920
I think you kind of need to
like have that badge. So I

837
01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:30,719
guess my short answer to your question, which this is not short at all,

838
01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:35,039
never is with me, but my
short answer is like having those having

839
01:03:35,079 --> 01:03:37,199
had those shoes in my closet,
and like I call on that, I

840
01:03:37,239 --> 01:03:39,599
call on that a lot. I
play that card a lot. Like that's

841
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:44,920
a I think critical to like my
ability to be in this role. But

842
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:50,960
it's also important to like bridge that
with the higher level sort of value messaging.

843
01:03:51,519 --> 01:03:54,559
And you mentioned like that bringing people
engineers, having a skill of bringing

844
01:03:54,599 --> 01:03:58,199
people along. I think that's a
skill to give them too. It's be

845
01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:01,239
like you know this is really technical, and you're in the weeds and you

846
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:04,000
really like this solution and I want
to sell it to you, but you

847
01:04:04,039 --> 01:04:08,280
need to get budget for this solution, and you need to explain like how

848
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:11,119
it's going to impact your bottom line. There's really only a few ways that

849
01:04:11,199 --> 01:04:14,920
can Like there's really only a few
ways to sell a product to a buyer.

850
01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:17,760
Right, It's either going to save
you money, or it's gonna save

851
01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:21,639
you time, which is ultimately going
to save you money, or it's going

852
01:04:21,679 --> 01:04:27,880
to give you a better, a
significantly better end user experience, which is

853
01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:30,519
going to make you more money.
So it's really just all about the money.

854
01:04:30,559 --> 01:04:34,880
And like helping them understand that,
I think is really like helping them

855
01:04:35,039 --> 01:04:39,800
understand and giving them I mean,
they understand it, but that's that's condescending,

856
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:45,440
But like giving them what they need
to be able to communicate that in

857
01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:48,960
a way that they feel like doesn't
make them want to barf. I think

858
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:55,079
that's another like thing that a that
a technical product marketer does is like empowering

859
01:04:55,440 --> 01:05:00,320
people to be a champion. Right, Yeah, so like one the once

860
01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:05,920
they have signed off on a technical
solution, giving them the tools to make

861
01:05:06,079 --> 01:05:12,119
the financial case yeah, yeah,
like once you've got because with Kentick,

862
01:05:12,239 --> 01:05:17,760
like people are I think we definitely
have had sort of a what I would

863
01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:24,079
think of as a bottom up sales
motion in that like network engineers freaking love

864
01:05:24,159 --> 01:05:28,599
can take Like there are network engineers
out there and we have this where like

865
01:05:28,639 --> 01:05:30,559
we'll have a we started in the
service provider market, so we have a

866
01:05:30,639 --> 01:05:34,079
ton of customers in the service provider
market, and a lot of network engineers

867
01:05:34,119 --> 01:05:40,039
will work at a service provider and
then they'll switch over to enterprise and different

868
01:05:40,119 --> 01:05:43,760
challenges. But there's a lot of
the big enterprise are basically running big enterprises

869
01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:48,079
are basically running their own service provider
internally to meet their network engineering demands.

870
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:51,639
And so we'll have people who switch
over and if they've used Kentic before,

871
01:05:51,719 --> 01:05:57,360
like they're going to want to use
it again. So that helps. And

872
01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:00,639
like you have to have both right, Like you have to yet you have

873
01:06:00,679 --> 01:06:03,559
to get the practitioners to fall in
love with your product and want to use

874
01:06:03,599 --> 01:06:06,719
it, and it has to be
sticky. But then you also have to

875
01:06:08,599 --> 01:06:11,599
make a business like you have to
be able to make a business case for

876
01:06:11,639 --> 01:06:14,440
it because otherwise you end up like
I mean, I said, I worked

877
01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:18,119
at Puppet Puppet, you know,
sad story used in so much of the

878
01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:21,599
ninety percent of the fortune five hundred
or something like that, and they were

879
01:06:21,639 --> 01:06:25,679
never really able to monetize it.
And Docker is the same story. Right,

880
01:06:26,079 --> 01:06:30,400
we still use Docker everywhere, but
they couldn't make money off of that

881
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:32,760
because they didn't make that business case. And I think that's I mean,

882
01:06:33,119 --> 01:06:38,039
that's a whole other episode of the
podcast too, but like that's to me,

883
01:06:38,159 --> 01:06:40,719
that makes me sad, right,
it makes me a little sad because

884
01:06:40,800 --> 01:06:44,320
what a great like what a great
product? So yeah, and both of

885
01:06:44,320 --> 01:06:47,920
those specifically, like every time they
try to make a change to where they

886
01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:51,920
can actually make enough money to operate
the company, we go out of our

887
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:57,440
ways to find out how we can
continue using that tool without having to pay

888
01:06:57,480 --> 01:07:00,559
for it. I know, I
know. And that's but I mean that

889
01:07:00,679 --> 01:07:05,599
that's okay because a lot of this, like all this all this transformation in

890
01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:11,400
UX that we were just talking about, that's really just been a huge wave

891
01:07:11,519 --> 01:07:15,679
over the last decade. I think
it's all built upon free, open source

892
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:17,599
software, right, Like it all
starts with the kernel. To me,

893
01:07:18,079 --> 01:07:24,079
so because I'm not a hardware nerd, but like, uh, it's all

894
01:07:24,159 --> 01:07:26,360
so we can't It's not like we
can we can be like, oh,

895
01:07:26,400 --> 01:07:30,280
we're I was going to say a
holes, but we can't say we're jerks

896
01:07:30,360 --> 01:07:32,960
because uh we you know, we
want to use this free software Like no,

897
01:07:33,079 --> 01:07:35,519
I mean that's in our that's in
our DNA, right, Like,

898
01:07:35,559 --> 01:07:38,519
well, yeah, we want to
figure out a free way to do it.

899
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:42,559
So it's like you gotta that's a
balance, that's a that's a balance

900
01:07:42,679 --> 01:07:45,880
for And that's why I really like
product marketing where I work, because you

901
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:49,199
get into some of that we call
it packaging, right, like how are

902
01:07:49,199 --> 01:07:54,639
you going to package your products so
that you're giving away for free what's really

903
01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:59,800
valuable for free? And that makes
the customer want to use it, But

904
01:07:59,840 --> 01:08:03,320
you're also like setting your boundaries around
your product like this, this is like

905
01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:09,079
this is their goal and and here's
how we want to like here's how we

906
01:08:09,119 --> 01:08:12,599
want to monetize that. And I
think that's like a fundamentally like an unsolved

907
01:08:12,599 --> 01:08:16,960
problem like how to how to do
that well? And and you know vc

908
01:08:17,840 --> 01:08:24,079
VC money has been an interesting like
right, like so this this last decade

909
01:08:24,119 --> 01:08:29,399
of UX growth has also been a
decade of incredible venture capital investment in technology,

910
01:08:29,439 --> 01:08:31,439
and like, I don't know,
I saw some articles about this a

911
01:08:31,439 --> 01:08:34,640
couple of years ago, like just
just all the things that we think that

912
01:08:34,680 --> 01:08:39,319
all the things that we think are
cheap, like taking a I remember when

913
01:08:39,439 --> 01:08:42,640
Uber and Lyft like raised their prices
and it's like, yeah, like this

914
01:08:42,680 --> 01:08:45,920
is how much it actually costs.
But before this, you, like,

915
01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:48,880
your experience was being subsidized by a
venture by various venture capital firms. I

916
01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:54,600
mean that's true. So figuring out
like how to how to transition into this

917
01:08:54,720 --> 01:08:57,680
next phase of the economy is also
part of that. Anyway, this is

918
01:08:57,680 --> 01:09:01,920
a huge digression from your marketing question, but now it's really not because like

919
01:09:01,960 --> 01:09:08,319
the same like for me, the
way I approach things is like the same

920
01:09:09,279 --> 01:09:14,199
rules still apply there. You know, you can use the subsidized Uber subsidi

921
01:09:14,279 --> 01:09:20,760
subsidized with VC money, which makes
Uber look like a cost center that applies

922
01:09:20,800 --> 01:09:27,880
directly to your DevOps team or your
network team that you work in in your

923
01:09:27,960 --> 01:09:30,640
day to day job. You know, you're viewed in the company as a

924
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:36,640
cost center. But if you if
you approach it from a marketing perspective,

925
01:09:38,359 --> 01:09:41,960
then you can change the perception of
your team from being a cost center to

926
01:09:42,039 --> 01:09:47,439
being you know, a value for
your company. Yeah, And I think

927
01:09:47,439 --> 01:09:54,319
that's challenging because for network specifically,
because it's so to me it feels like

928
01:09:54,359 --> 01:09:58,640
the very bottom layer of what we
think of as the stack, and it's

929
01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:03,239
so ubiquitous at this point that it's
really seen as like a utility, right,

930
01:10:03,439 --> 01:10:09,680
It's like a utility. So it's
really really hard to make like it's

931
01:10:09,720 --> 01:10:12,840
a very tempting thing. Actually,
it's really interesting. We had this conversation

932
01:10:13,079 --> 01:10:17,520
internally really recently. It's really tempting
to just market everything based on like,

933
01:10:17,520 --> 01:10:21,479
well, nothing works without the network. So like I'm selling you this new

934
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:27,359
network monitoring tool and like you know, you're really important, nothing works without

935
01:10:27,399 --> 01:10:30,720
the network. Make sure you say
that in your meetings, like well I

936
01:10:30,760 --> 01:10:32,680
need this new tool because nothing works
without the network. And I think like

937
01:10:32,720 --> 01:10:38,520
what we've found is that that doesn't
always that doesn't always work because it's just

938
01:10:38,680 --> 01:10:45,680
too but it's so fundamental that it's
now just part of like our conceptualization of

939
01:10:45,720 --> 01:10:47,760
like you know, I expect for
there to be a toilet, I expect

940
01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:50,119
for there, I expect to have
water, I expect to be able to

941
01:10:50,239 --> 01:10:54,800
charge my device. And that's just
like the way it is, and so

942
01:10:56,119 --> 01:11:00,279
yeah, how you make that transformation
from thinking of something as a cost center

943
01:11:00,359 --> 01:11:04,880
to really like feeling the value in
wanting to invest in it. I mean,

944
01:11:04,880 --> 01:11:09,680
I think when it comes to the
network, where that where that comes

945
01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:15,640
in is like the digital experience,
right, So like talking about talking about

946
01:11:15,640 --> 01:11:19,159
what we were talking about in terms
of like how the how the network performs

947
01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:24,760
really matters to your to your customers, really matters to the people who are

948
01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:29,359
accessing your services and more. And
you have some interesting points that like it

949
01:11:29,399 --> 01:11:32,560
goes that goes both ways, right, it matters to them, It matters

950
01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:34,720
to them both ways, and you
have to design around if you have a

951
01:11:34,760 --> 01:11:39,319
really high performing network, then maybe
you need to design around the way that

952
01:11:39,319 --> 01:11:42,640
that interaction appears to the user.
That's really I never thought about that before,

953
01:11:42,920 --> 01:11:46,039
but yeah, I think that's where
the value comes in, is thinking

954
01:11:46,079 --> 01:11:55,279
about that end user experience. But
also the sort of hug ups hug ups

955
01:11:55,760 --> 01:11:59,399
sort of strategy comes to mind too, Like I think you need to balance

956
01:11:59,479 --> 01:12:04,399
that, Like Hay, network engineer, I understand you're you're always like you're

957
01:12:04,399 --> 01:12:10,079
often being blamed. It it's it's
it's meantime to an instance, for you.

958
01:12:10,079 --> 01:12:13,680
You've got to be in all these
calls. You've got to defend the

959
01:12:13,680 --> 01:12:17,560
fundamental like primacy of your service and
how critical it is to the entire business

960
01:12:17,600 --> 01:12:20,920
running. But at the same time, people expect it so much that you

961
01:12:20,920 --> 01:12:25,439
don't get the credit, Like you
gotta you gotta put those hugs out there.

962
01:12:26,479 --> 01:12:31,880
You also have to be like but
yeah, like if you were I

963
01:12:31,119 --> 01:12:34,239
mean, if you, like,
if you can be better at your job,

964
01:12:34,359 --> 01:12:36,920
then like people are gonna have a
better experience if you can have the

965
01:12:36,960 --> 01:12:41,079
tools that you need to, if
you can have the tools that you need

966
01:12:41,119 --> 01:12:44,600
to to raise the bar, then
like that's gonna be good for everyone.

967
01:12:44,680 --> 01:12:48,880
So it's kind of like it's it's
a hug and a hugging a nudge or

968
01:12:48,880 --> 01:12:57,039
something. It's a it's a bro
huga. Oh there it goes. I

969
01:12:57,079 --> 01:12:59,800
don't get a lot of those go
I mean I need that. I need

970
01:12:59,840 --> 01:13:02,239
that to me. I think there's
an interesting corollary here too that you that

971
01:13:02,359 --> 01:13:09,680
you touched on a little bit,
was that going and performing the marketing or

972
01:13:10,239 --> 01:13:15,119
content strategy requires understanding and I think
that's twofold there, right, Like not

973
01:13:15,159 --> 01:13:18,279
only it's good to know that that
that is a good expectation to have.

974
01:13:18,840 --> 01:13:25,039
But if you are on the technology
side at hands on that there is an

975
01:13:25,079 --> 01:13:30,760
alternative paths out there that that your
skills, if you like to communicate,

976
01:13:30,640 --> 01:13:32,960
if you if you like to talk
about this, if you think you can

977
01:13:33,520 --> 01:13:38,600
uh work with these other teams,
either side by side or or with them,

978
01:13:38,640 --> 01:13:42,760
because actually I think this goes into
education as well. You call it

979
01:13:42,840 --> 01:13:45,840
thought leadership, but you know,
even if you're even if you're a direct

980
01:13:45,840 --> 01:13:48,319
contact, you know they totally get
it. They haven't spent much time actually

981
01:13:48,359 --> 01:13:54,920
thinking about how to convey that effectively
to not just their executives who sign the

982
01:13:55,520 --> 01:13:59,479
approval on the product, but they
are all the rest of their teams.

983
01:13:59,479 --> 01:14:01,399
Like I feel like we get lots
of engineers in who are like, we

984
01:14:01,479 --> 01:14:05,920
know we need to do something.
Do you have docs on how to do

985
01:14:05,960 --> 01:14:10,560
this or how to do that?
Because we may not buy your product,

986
01:14:10,600 --> 01:14:14,800
but wow, this is such a
huge problem for us that we would love

987
01:14:14,840 --> 01:14:16,079
to, like, I need to
teach other people about how to solve this

988
01:14:16,159 --> 01:14:19,239
issue. Yeah. Yeah, Oh
and that's huge. I mean that's kind

989
01:14:19,279 --> 01:14:25,479
of like the developer advocacy angle.
I would say that, and I think

990
01:14:25,520 --> 01:14:30,439
that plays super well with and I
think this is also like another sign of

991
01:14:30,479 --> 01:14:33,000
the culture change that we were talking
about that came around the time that Kubernetes

992
01:14:34,279 --> 01:14:40,359
became became so abiquitous. It's just
like people people like the idea of like

993
01:14:40,439 --> 01:14:45,479
sharing, sharing their knowledge and like
building each other up. I think that's

994
01:14:45,520 --> 01:14:48,359
really I think that's really like a
great way to go. And as a

995
01:14:48,399 --> 01:14:53,960
company, if you can demonstrate that
you are willing to spend time, energy,

996
01:14:54,079 --> 01:14:59,520
spend your resources on like building the
core competency of the community so that

997
01:14:59,560 --> 01:15:02,520
they can, you know, like
what Will was saying, passing that knowledge

998
01:15:02,560 --> 01:15:09,079
along so that the next the next
generation of engineers can really like start where

999
01:15:09,159 --> 01:15:12,119
you like be up on your shoulders, right. I'm coming up with all

1000
01:15:12,199 --> 01:15:14,840
kinds of metaphors to describe this,
but it's like, I think, if

1001
01:15:14,880 --> 01:15:17,199
you can truly demonstrate that as a
company, that's one of the best,

1002
01:15:17,239 --> 01:15:23,920
one of the absolute best ways to
appeal to to a developer audience. And

1003
01:15:24,239 --> 01:15:28,000
I don't know just one thing to
say on the marketing front, you mentioned

1004
01:15:28,039 --> 01:15:30,199
like this is like an option for
folks if they if they want, if

1005
01:15:30,199 --> 01:15:34,239
they think that they can be good
at communicating about this, It's very nice

1006
01:15:34,239 --> 01:15:38,319
to hear that two of you talk
about this in this way and acknowledge that

1007
01:15:38,359 --> 01:15:40,840
this is a hard problem, because
what I've found in my career is that

1008
01:15:41,600 --> 01:15:46,279
a lot of technical folks believe that
marketing is like a thing that anyone can

1009
01:15:46,359 --> 01:15:56,079
do, like because it's like a
soft it's like a soft skill set or

1010
01:15:56,119 --> 01:15:58,560
something. And they're like, oh, you know, I could, I

1011
01:15:58,600 --> 01:16:00,760
could do that. I just choose
not to do that, right, Like

1012
01:16:00,840 --> 01:16:04,720
I'm choosing to be a technologist or
I'm choosing to be a CEO or whatever

1013
01:16:04,760 --> 01:16:09,399
they're choosing to be. But they're
like, oh, you've chosen this path

1014
01:16:09,439 --> 01:16:12,079
of marketing, but like, really, I could do it better. But

1015
01:16:12,159 --> 01:16:15,479
then when you sit down and I
think I was probably that person, Like

1016
01:16:15,560 --> 01:16:18,439
I ended up in a marketing job, as I think I told you,

1017
01:16:18,479 --> 01:16:20,560
by accident, Like I did not. I wasn't like, oh, I'm

1018
01:16:20,600 --> 01:16:26,159
going to go on this great marketing
career dive and see, you know,

1019
01:16:26,640 --> 01:16:29,960
this is where my talents really lie. But I think I was one of

1020
01:16:30,000 --> 01:16:33,920
those engineers who was better at like
the cross functional communication part. I ended

1021
01:16:33,960 --> 01:16:38,119
up doing a lot of that.
And then a product manager that I was

1022
01:16:38,159 --> 01:16:40,760
working for was like, you know, there's this job opening and I think

1023
01:16:40,800 --> 01:16:44,399
you'd be really good at that.
Have you ever considered being like a being

1024
01:16:44,720 --> 01:16:49,720
a technical marketer? And I happened
to want off of the team that I

1025
01:16:49,840 --> 01:16:53,399
was on at the time, and
I was like, sure, I'll try

1026
01:16:53,439 --> 01:16:59,239
it. Right, it was a
lateral move and it I think one of

1027
01:16:59,279 --> 01:17:03,000
the hardest, hardest things. And
you can see based on this episode,

1028
01:17:03,000 --> 01:17:06,319
I am looking at the run time
this is the hardest thing for me personally

1029
01:17:06,840 --> 01:17:11,840
is to say something in like three
words right, to say to really like

1030
01:17:12,000 --> 01:17:16,199
get to the heart of like what
gets to your heart, like really communicate

1031
01:17:16,319 --> 01:17:19,920
something that's going to resonate that you're
going to remember. And that also is

1032
01:17:20,119 --> 01:17:29,920
true. I think like where that's
where, Well, yeah, the bullshit

1033
01:17:30,039 --> 01:17:32,039
meter, the bullshit of God,
I just said it, the bullshit meter

1034
01:17:32,239 --> 01:17:36,680
on I said it three times on
our on my audience is like very high.

1035
01:17:36,760 --> 01:17:42,439
And I think that's one of the
that's one of the palmarks of our

1036
01:17:42,880 --> 01:17:47,399
of our field is that we're we're
skeptics and we do not we would love

1037
01:17:47,439 --> 01:17:50,840
to say that we do not want
to be marketed to, and we can

1038
01:17:50,960 --> 01:17:56,159
smell marketing a mile away. And
that's how that sort of education track and

1039
01:17:56,520 --> 01:18:00,239
developer advocacy track have like been such
a foothold because it's it's not marketing,

1040
01:18:00,279 --> 01:18:05,439
but it is marketing, right,
But I think like beyond that, really

1041
01:18:05,920 --> 01:18:11,680
it is important to we see ourselves
as like we're selling a platform to people

1042
01:18:11,720 --> 01:18:15,720
who need it, Like our job
is to find people who actually are a

1043
01:18:15,760 --> 01:18:19,880
good fit for our and actually just
train the sales team on this last week.

1044
01:18:19,960 --> 01:18:23,800
It's like you're not trying to sell
the product, Like you're not trying

1045
01:18:23,800 --> 01:18:26,800
to jam it down anyone's throat,
right, You're trying to find the people

1046
01:18:26,840 --> 01:18:31,960
who are really excited about streaming to
Lemontry. They're really excited about the the

1047
01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:34,840
real time data that they can get
from our tool. They don't want to

1048
01:18:34,920 --> 01:18:39,279
wait for five minute polling, they
don't want to refresh the page. That

1049
01:18:39,399 --> 01:18:43,640
experience is not enough for them.
And so if we can find those people,

1050
01:18:45,239 --> 01:18:46,680
then our job is easy. Right. Then we just show them the

1051
01:18:46,680 --> 01:18:50,520
tool and we're like, let's let's
get this set up in your environment and

1052
01:18:51,000 --> 01:18:55,039
let's get you going so that you
can be successful at what you do.

1053
01:18:55,119 --> 01:18:58,079
And I think, like that's the
dream, but really, if you want

1054
01:18:58,079 --> 01:19:01,640
to do that, you still have
to figure out a short way to describe

1055
01:19:01,680 --> 01:19:04,640
what you do and why it matters. And that is one of the hardest.

1056
01:19:04,840 --> 01:19:08,880
It's one of like the shorter something
has to be the harder it is

1057
01:19:08,920 --> 01:19:13,199
to make it good, and it's
really very It's a challenge. It's a

1058
01:19:13,279 --> 01:19:15,680
huge challenge. So that's what has
driven me into this field, is just

1059
01:19:15,720 --> 01:19:24,399
like the unexpected challenge of kind of
marrying these two passions of mine being a

1060
01:19:24,439 --> 01:19:31,319
technologist and also being being a flabbermouth
figuring out like where do I land with

1061
01:19:31,399 --> 01:19:34,279
that? And how can I connect
with my audience with that? And it

1062
01:19:34,600 --> 01:19:38,000
is it is a great challenge for
anyone who wants to do it. And

1063
01:19:38,039 --> 01:19:41,359
I will say, like you are
a bit of a it's fun to be

1064
01:19:41,479 --> 01:19:44,920
like a bit of a unicorn.
And I've I've experienced that. Like why

1065
01:19:45,000 --> 01:19:46,960
do you guys have me on this
podcast? I don't know, Like but

1066
01:19:48,000 --> 01:19:51,239
because I'm in unicorn? Yeah right, yeah, because a lot of us

1067
01:19:51,840 --> 01:20:00,640
with technical backgrounds, our perception of
marketing is, well, yeah, I

1068
01:20:00,680 --> 01:20:03,000
could wake up at eleven pound a
few martinis and hit the golf course.

1069
01:20:03,079 --> 01:20:06,119
I could do marketing, sure,
you know, And that's the that's the

1070
01:20:06,159 --> 01:20:10,560
perception of it, you know.
Yeah, you're just just writing words on

1071
01:20:10,600 --> 01:20:13,079
the page. Right, Yeah,
I saw mad man, I know what

1072
01:20:13,119 --> 01:20:16,560
you guys do you know? Having
having I guess found a couple of companies.

1073
01:20:16,560 --> 01:20:19,640
Now, Uh, there is there
is such a huge aspect here that

1074
01:20:19,680 --> 01:20:24,279
I feel like you're even under under
selling Crosslin. It's uh, you've got,

1075
01:20:24,279 --> 01:20:26,800
you've got. Not only is it
just too many words to fit in,

1076
01:20:27,039 --> 01:20:30,000
but sometimes you don't even have words
at all, Like you first have

1077
01:20:30,039 --> 01:20:31,520
to come up with them to actually
even say, like maybe you have a

1078
01:20:31,520 --> 01:20:35,159
feeling or an emotion you want to
convey. Uh. There's just so many

1079
01:20:35,199 --> 01:20:39,880
different aspects there that have to end
up not on not just on a marketing

1080
01:20:39,880 --> 01:20:43,439
page, but in a sales call
and actually figuring out what that is.

1081
01:20:43,479 --> 01:20:45,640
It's a huge it's a huge struggle, for sure. It's not. And

1082
01:20:45,960 --> 01:20:48,880
that's not to say there aren't tons
of marketers who are bad at their jobs

1083
01:20:48,960 --> 01:20:54,399
or doing a different job, which
is like doing some sort of analysis on

1084
01:20:54,520 --> 01:21:00,359
big data to perform a b testuh, or looking at where traffic is coming

1085
01:21:00,359 --> 01:21:02,920
in through depending on your height in
the funnel. You know, you can

1086
01:21:02,920 --> 01:21:08,680
do all those things. But that's
not content marketing. That's reviewing some numbers,

1087
01:21:09,199 --> 01:21:14,600
which for sure is an easier job
to do than what we've been talking

1088
01:21:14,600 --> 01:21:16,119
about here. I mean, I
think there's a lot. There's a lot

1089
01:21:16,159 --> 01:21:20,439
to that. The marketing marketing is
you point out, it's a pretty diverse

1090
01:21:23,119 --> 01:21:28,880
sort of skill set that and product
marketing is really like being able to harness

1091
01:21:29,039 --> 01:21:33,359
all of that sort of engine in
a way that will connect with your audience

1092
01:21:34,159 --> 01:21:36,640
in a way. I mean for
B to B product marketing, it's like,

1093
01:21:36,680 --> 01:21:41,560
that's going to connect with your audience
in a way that's authentic enough to

1094
01:21:41,640 --> 01:21:48,159
get you in the top of funnel
gate, right and and then but and

1095
01:21:48,479 --> 01:21:51,159
but the other thing is you got
you again. You've got to connect it

1096
01:21:51,199 --> 01:21:54,920
with what the product does. And
I think this is where like I've worked

1097
01:21:54,960 --> 01:21:58,199
with I've worked with product marketers who
don't have a technical background, and there

1098
01:21:58,199 --> 01:22:00,199
are plenty of them out there,
and there's some wonderful ones out there,

1099
01:22:00,560 --> 01:22:05,960
But I've had arguments with people like
that about like, well, you know,

1100
01:22:06,000 --> 01:22:10,800
I'm not going to say this because
our product doesn't do that, Like

1101
01:22:10,800 --> 01:22:13,600
like, yeah, you can tell
me that we have a security story.

1102
01:22:13,600 --> 01:22:15,319
This is one that comes up all
the time, and this is not true.

1103
01:22:15,319 --> 01:22:17,199
If Kentick, we do have a
security story. But a lot of

1104
01:22:17,439 --> 01:22:21,199
a lot of companies want to say
that their product has a security story and

1105
01:22:21,279 --> 01:22:25,880
it just doesn't right, or they
want to like and they want to tout

1106
01:22:26,159 --> 01:22:30,760
this thing that they heard that the
product can do, and you're like,

1107
01:22:30,800 --> 01:22:36,560
where does that. It's like this
sort of ball of energy gathers at a

1108
01:22:36,600 --> 01:22:42,199
B to B company about a technical
product and what it can do in the

1109
01:22:42,239 --> 01:22:45,239
power of It's like this hype gathers
up, and then as a as like

1110
01:22:45,319 --> 01:22:48,680
a product marketer coming from a technical
perspective, you have to be like,

1111
01:22:48,720 --> 01:22:53,680
Okay, here's your ball. This
is what's at the core of the ball,

1112
01:22:54,039 --> 01:22:56,640
and like I'm excited about the hype
and I want to keep the ball

1113
01:22:56,760 --> 01:23:00,399
rolling, but we have to make
sure that what's in there is solid,

1114
01:23:00,399 --> 01:23:02,319
that it's gonna be helpful to our
customers, that and that, and then

1115
01:23:02,359 --> 01:23:05,760
because it's not, I'm so afraid
of triggering that triggering that bullshit meter.

1116
01:23:05,840 --> 01:23:11,640
And it's definitely like, maybe that's
why I'm I'm destined to be a middle

1117
01:23:12,279 --> 01:23:15,359
Uh yeah, I don't know.
I'm not really a mental manager. I

1118
01:23:15,399 --> 01:23:18,479
kind of am. Yeah, So
maybe that's why I'm destined to like I'm

1119
01:23:18,479 --> 01:23:21,279
never going to be in charge of
the executive buyer messaging. I sort of

1120
01:23:21,279 --> 01:23:26,880
am, but I'm definitely like more, I am more afraid of lying,

1121
01:23:27,000 --> 01:23:29,720
Like I do not want to lie
to people. I do not want to

1122
01:23:30,319 --> 01:23:32,279
get caught up on the hype train. And that was really hard for me

1123
01:23:32,319 --> 01:23:36,159
with our I AI product in particular, because I just I don't want to

1124
01:23:36,159 --> 01:23:40,079
get up caught up on that hype
train, and I really want to mark

1125
01:23:40,119 --> 01:23:43,079
I don't really want to connect with
the audience that is skeptical about AI,

1126
01:23:43,439 --> 01:23:47,000
and I really wanted our messaging to
be like, you know, all all

1127
01:23:47,279 --> 01:23:51,960
other AI is like bullshit, I
know, but this one you should really

1128
01:23:53,000 --> 01:23:55,640
take a look at it. You
know. I want you to acknowledge that.

1129
01:23:55,960 --> 01:23:58,520
But hard to figure out how to
do that in three words, you

1130
01:23:58,560 --> 01:24:00,640
know, I to just go with
the same talk is like, you know,

1131
01:24:00,680 --> 01:24:03,760
all AI is bullshit, so as
ours, but you know it's better,

1132
01:24:04,600 --> 01:24:08,039
yeah, I mean, but no, yeah, it's true. It's

1133
01:24:08,039 --> 01:24:11,520
like just the honest thing I think
is really important, and it's really important

1134
01:24:11,520 --> 01:24:17,319
to me, and connecting two folks
and letting them know that, like letting

1135
01:24:17,359 --> 01:24:21,039
them know that you've been in their
shoes, I think, and it so

1136
01:24:21,119 --> 01:24:25,760
it really comes down to like empathy, right, I think empathy is a

1137
01:24:25,840 --> 01:24:31,840
huge part of it, just being
able to communicate that and really authentically like

1138
01:24:32,279 --> 01:24:36,359
emanate that in your communications. And
I think the companies that do that really

1139
01:24:36,399 --> 01:24:43,880
well that can can be very successful. So yeah, yeah, because in

1140
01:24:43,920 --> 01:24:46,880
cases like that, it's it's really
not about the AI. It's what the

1141
01:24:47,000 --> 01:24:51,520
AI allows you to do that you
care about. Yeah, yeah, that's

1142
01:24:51,560 --> 01:24:56,800
about what the humans can what the
humans can do with it, and that

1143
01:24:56,800 --> 01:25:00,720
that story all always resonates really well. And I think that's why l l

1144
01:25:00,840 --> 01:25:08,079
M has particularly been so like why
it just experienced such an incredible rise over

1145
01:25:08,079 --> 01:25:11,640
the last couple of years, because
it really is fundamentally about like it's a

1146
01:25:11,720 --> 01:25:18,319
human, it's a it's a particularly
human interface for a I think, yeah,

1147
01:25:19,479 --> 01:25:26,920
it's not all about empowering the human. Yeah for sure. All right,

1148
01:25:27,399 --> 01:25:32,119
good chat. I really enjoyed talking
with you. Ready to break?

1149
01:25:32,680 --> 01:25:40,880
No, we still have to do
PICKSI Warren putting you on the spot this

1150
01:25:40,920 --> 01:25:43,680
week, would you bring? Yeah? Well, you know I had something,

1151
01:25:43,840 --> 01:25:47,920
but then after the conversation started,
I just I got a flash of

1152
01:25:47,920 --> 01:25:51,359
of what I should actually be my
pick, And that's going to be The

1153
01:25:51,399 --> 01:25:58,760
Phoenix Project, which is a great
book in the Dells space about a hypothetical

1154
01:25:58,800 --> 01:26:03,399
company that separates their ops team from
their development team and they just struggle with

1155
01:26:03,439 --> 01:26:06,359
it in a lot of ways.
In the company almost folds, And I

1156
01:26:06,399 --> 01:26:11,640
think there's a lot to do in
the book with education and overcoming some of

1157
01:26:11,720 --> 01:26:15,039
those early challenges that we talked about
in the podcast today. It's actually a

1158
01:26:15,079 --> 01:26:17,159
great book as well. So if
you're anywhere in the development engineering space,

1159
01:26:17,199 --> 01:26:23,399
I can't imagine anyone on this call
today wouldn't enjoy reading it. And you

1160
01:26:23,439 --> 01:26:27,279
may you may be like be able
to put names and cry a little bit

1161
01:26:27,279 --> 01:26:30,239
on the inside when you see some
of the problems that they they face.

1162
01:26:30,359 --> 01:26:33,479
But I highly recommend it for sure. You got to check that out.

1163
01:26:34,079 --> 01:26:39,760
Yeah, definitely a cool read,
all right, Riislyn she brings a pick

1164
01:26:39,800 --> 01:26:45,600
this week. Yeah, I mean
mine is definitely not as not as linear.

1165
01:26:45,800 --> 01:26:47,800
I can just talk about the book
I'm reading right now, which is

1166
01:26:47,920 --> 01:26:51,720
really interesting to me. Okay,
So it's my partner always calls me a

1167
01:26:53,560 --> 01:26:57,359
corporate fee up. And I told
you that. I told you that I

1168
01:26:59,359 --> 01:27:03,279
briefly worked in more of like a
directed developer B to B company and that

1169
01:27:03,479 --> 01:27:08,239
the enterprise sales model is a bit
more my jam. I sort of discovered

1170
01:27:08,239 --> 01:27:13,000
that in my career and so I
decided that I should learn more about corporate

1171
01:27:13,359 --> 01:27:16,479
stuff and understand like how it came
to be. So I'm reading this book

1172
01:27:16,760 --> 01:27:21,880
The Corporation That Changed the World,
and it's about the East India Company,

1173
01:27:23,760 --> 01:27:27,359
and it's really interesting because if you
think about the like the VOC and the

1174
01:27:27,359 --> 01:27:31,039
East India Company, which were some
of the world's first corporations, you probably

1175
01:27:31,119 --> 01:27:40,319
know that they went around the world
and wreaked complete havoc on people and ecosystems

1176
01:27:40,479 --> 01:27:45,840
and exhibited such such stark corruption and
violence that it's almost I mean, it's

1177
01:27:45,840 --> 01:27:48,359
just breathtaking to kind of think about
that and read about that, and and

1178
01:27:48,399 --> 01:27:51,399
that's something that we're dealing with now, I think in our society is how

1179
01:27:51,439 --> 01:27:57,680
to how to move forward through that
being able to acknowledge it. But it's

1180
01:27:57,720 --> 01:28:00,840
really interesting to learn about how it. It's like the way that corporations operate

1181
01:28:00,880 --> 01:28:05,439
today and what how you know,
we talk about how corporation is like has

1182
01:28:05,439 --> 01:28:10,159
the same race as an individual.
How did that come to me? And

1183
01:28:10,199 --> 01:28:13,520
what's the history there? So I'm
kind of history Nerd and that's what I'm

1184
01:28:13,560 --> 01:28:15,399
reading now, and I would have
It's dense, but it's not super long,

1185
01:28:15,439 --> 01:28:18,800
so I highly recommend it. So
they're like the root of all evil.

1186
01:28:19,039 --> 01:28:23,159
Yeah, yeah, like let's let's
stare it in the face if we

1187
01:28:23,199 --> 01:28:26,960
want to if we want to move
forward to a new economic model as a

1188
01:28:27,000 --> 01:28:31,880
society, which that's another episode too, but definitely need to know like how

1189
01:28:31,960 --> 01:28:34,920
does the one that we have now? Like where did we go wrong?

1190
01:28:35,000 --> 01:28:39,720
I think it's really important to understand. Yeah, that's cool. I'd heard

1191
01:28:39,720 --> 01:28:43,000
of that book, but I didn't
realize it was about the East India Trading

1192
01:28:43,039 --> 01:28:46,239
Company. I'll have to check that
out because that sounds pretty cool. What's

1193
01:28:46,239 --> 01:28:51,960
your pick? So my pick is
straight from the nerd archives. It's the

1194
01:28:53,520 --> 01:29:00,399
k nine S tool for managing or
not really for managing, uh, it's

1195
01:29:00,520 --> 01:29:05,600
for visualizing your Kubernetes clusters, you
know, instead of typing out you know,

1196
01:29:05,800 --> 01:29:13,960
sixty four word Kubernetes commands. kNs
is just a CLI tool knin Scli

1197
01:29:14,119 --> 01:29:18,119
dot io that let you poke around
and look at all the stuff that's going

1198
01:29:18,159 --> 01:29:21,319
on and Kubernetes quickly and easily.
And the thing that I like most about

1199
01:29:21,319 --> 01:29:26,800
it is. It has VIM style
bindings, so you can just use like

1200
01:29:26,880 --> 01:29:31,399
the J and K keys to arrow
up and arrow down and different things like

1201
01:29:31,479 --> 01:29:36,359
that, and hit L for logs. And my favorite feature is when you

1202
01:29:36,399 --> 01:29:41,079
go to the log view mode,
it's tailing the logs, but you can

1203
01:29:41,199 --> 01:29:45,279
hit the letter M and it just
draws a straight line across the last log

1204
01:29:45,399 --> 01:29:49,399
so that when new logs come in, you can scroll back up to see

1205
01:29:49,399 --> 01:29:54,560
where you made the line and then
just see the logs that have shown up

1206
01:29:54,600 --> 01:29:58,239
since you last looked at it.
And so there's actually there's a lot of

1207
01:29:58,319 --> 01:30:01,880
tools in this category, but knis
is definitely my favorite. So that's my

1208
01:30:01,920 --> 01:30:04,399
pick for the week. I was
worried you were going to say there was

1209
01:30:04,439 --> 01:30:14,000
like some sort of AI interface not
yet right, it's coming. No,

1210
01:30:14,159 --> 01:30:16,600
that would be perfect, you know, little AI interface where I can just

1211
01:30:16,640 --> 01:30:19,800
type WTF and it says, well, actually, yeah, right, yeah,

1212
01:30:19,840 --> 01:30:23,800
there is nothing going on right now? You know these plots in this

1213
01:30:24,239 --> 01:30:27,840
space which are the issue that you
want to take a look at, Because

1214
01:30:27,880 --> 01:30:31,600
that's where my line of questioning always
starts. That is the best AI entry

1215
01:30:31,640 --> 01:30:34,680
point? What is the best I'm
going to suggest that I'm going to take

1216
01:30:34,720 --> 01:30:39,439
that back to our product. Yes, got to be able to respond to

1217
01:30:39,439 --> 01:30:43,119
that one. Yeah, Yeah,
because literally I can't formulate a more accurate

1218
01:30:43,199 --> 01:30:47,960
question right at the moment. Nope. Awesome. Well, Roselynd, thank

1219
01:30:48,000 --> 01:30:50,600
you so much for being on a
show. This has been a blast.

1220
01:30:50,880 --> 01:30:56,279
Yeah. Really enjoyed the conversation and
really appreciate you having me and yeah,

1221
01:30:56,640 --> 01:31:00,039
looking forward to continue to listen and
see what you get up to talking about

1222
01:31:00,079 --> 01:31:02,840
next. Yeah, for sure.
And if you want to come back on,

1223
01:31:02,960 --> 01:31:06,479
And because we picked up a couple
of different tangents there to go off

1224
01:31:06,520 --> 01:31:10,560
on, if you ever want to
come back on and go down those paths,

1225
01:31:10,680 --> 01:31:12,960
I'd love to have you back on
the show. Oh yeah, that'd

1226
01:31:12,960 --> 01:31:15,920
be awesome. Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna. I'm gonna take you

1227
01:31:15,000 --> 01:31:18,520
up on that, all right.
Cool. And for everyone listening, whether

1228
01:31:18,560 --> 01:31:24,840
you're listening to the recorded podcast or
if you're catching one of the live streaming

1229
01:31:25,119 --> 01:31:31,399
episodes on LinkedIn, YouTube, Twitch, or x A KA Twitter, thank

1230
01:31:31,439 --> 01:31:32,039
you for listening.