WEBVTT 1 00:00:33.600 --> 00:00:37.520 Welcome back to the Path with Chili. I'm Robin, I'm Jules, and 2 00:00:37.719 --> 00:00:43.399 I'm Ashley. Let's dive right into this week's case. March fifteenth, nineteen 3 00:00:43.439 --> 00:00:49.280 eighty nine, Frederick, Maryland, Seventeen year old Tracy Kirkpatrick spends the evening 4 00:00:49.320 --> 00:00:53.719 working alone at a shopping center clothing store. Nearly two hours after the store 5 00:00:53.880 --> 00:00:58.119 was supposed to have been closed. A security guard discovers Tracy's body in the 6 00:00:58.159 --> 00:01:03.119 storage room and she's been stabbed seven times. Three months later, a man 7 00:01:03.280 --> 00:01:10.040 calling himself Dawn phones a national confession's hotline and claims that he's responsible for Tracy's 8 00:01:10.079 --> 00:01:15.000 murder. Police track down a promising suspect and are unable to link him to 9 00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:19.719 the crime, but as the years go on, rumors start circulating about another 10 00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:23.680 suspect being the killer and to cover up was orchestrated to protect him. After 11 00:01:23.760 --> 00:01:27.640 that, the Path went chilly. So on this episode, we're going to 12 00:01:27.640 --> 00:01:32.760 be covering a crime which was featured on Unsolved Mysteries, the nineteen eighty nine 13 00:01:32.840 --> 00:01:37.680 murder of Tracy Kirkpatrick. This is the horrific story of a well liked seventeen 14 00:01:37.760 --> 00:01:41.640 year old high school senior who was brutally stabbed at death during her shift at 15 00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:46.319 her place of employment. A very unexpected development would take place in the investigation 16 00:01:46.719 --> 00:01:49.760 when a man calling himself Dawn voted a national confession hot line in the months 17 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:55.480 following Tracy's murder and left a message of himself admitting to the crime. The 18 00:01:55.599 --> 00:01:59.799 actual recording of this man's call is easily available online, and we'll be sharing 19 00:01:59.799 --> 00:02:02.120 a word for word description of what he said later on in this episode, 20 00:02:02.799 --> 00:02:07.560 police did track down an individual who seemed to have a major obsession with the 21 00:02:07.599 --> 00:02:10.759 case and ultimately ruled them out as a suspect, but it's not entirely clear 22 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:15.719 if he was the same person who made the phone call and confessed. If 23 00:02:15.719 --> 00:02:19.599 the caller wasn't the killer, an alternate possibility is that they were attempting to 24 00:02:19.639 --> 00:02:23.879 lead the investigation towards the real perpetrator. This is a complicated case because it 25 00:02:23.919 --> 00:02:28.319 seems like a lot of people in the community believe they have a pretty good 26 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:31.280 idea about who the killer is. If you do any research online, you'll 27 00:02:31.280 --> 00:02:36.680 find a lot of rumors and hearsay about the perpetrator's identity and allegations that a 28 00:02:36.719 --> 00:02:39.879 cover up took place to protect them regardless of whether or not these rumors are 29 00:02:39.879 --> 00:02:45.120 true. We have just passed the thirty four year anniversary of Tracy's murder and 30 00:02:45.199 --> 00:02:47.280 it is still a cold case, though there are some who believe it should 31 00:02:47.280 --> 00:02:52.199 have been solved a long time ago. Well, this case is wild. 32 00:02:52.520 --> 00:02:55.879 So we're talking about Tracy being seventeen years old, she's working alone at this 33 00:02:57.000 --> 00:03:02.520 shopping center, and its found stabbed to death seven times. So for me, 34 00:03:04.039 --> 00:03:07.599 the first thing I think about is that this is very personal and there's 35 00:03:07.759 --> 00:03:10.280 some kind of rage or anger inflicted in it. That's always where my mind 36 00:03:10.360 --> 00:03:15.400 goes when I see a stabbing, especially multiple stabbings, stab wounds, and 37 00:03:15.479 --> 00:03:21.639 so I'm thinking in my head, a seventeen year old little girl who has 38 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:27.199 such a need for a personal killing like that. It's very, very confusing 39 00:03:27.680 --> 00:03:30.199 because it sounds like there's going to be a lot of complicating factors that go 40 00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:36.719 into this and not something like let's say a lust kind of killing or a 41 00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:39.240 young teenage lover who you know wants to be with her. And Tracy says, 42 00:03:39.319 --> 00:03:44.840 no, tell me this. What do you guys think about the idea 43 00:03:44.879 --> 00:03:47.800 that so many people quote know the identity but no arrest has been made, 44 00:03:49.080 --> 00:03:53.120 because I get really stressed when I listen to these stories or I watch a 45 00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:59.080 documentary and for an hour they'll fixate on this one name of a suspect, 46 00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:01.240 and then you know, two hours later you learned they had nothing to do 47 00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:05.080 with the crime. I wonder what their life is like when their name is 48 00:04:05.199 --> 00:04:09.080 plastered everywhere. Now, in this case, I don't know, maybe they 49 00:04:09.080 --> 00:04:12.280 are the one who did it. But does that ever bother you guys when 50 00:04:12.280 --> 00:04:14.680 you're listening to a true crime story and you go, oh, god, 51 00:04:14.680 --> 00:04:16.120 wait, he had nothing to do with it, and I've painted him as 52 00:04:16.160 --> 00:04:19.319 a horrible human for an hour. Oh yeah, Like that sort of thing 53 00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:24.680 happens all the time, where some people become fixated as potential suspects just because 54 00:04:24.839 --> 00:04:28.519 they might be weird or they display bizarre behavior, but there really isn't any 55 00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:30.959 evidence like pointing them towards the crime. And then later they use DNA or 56 00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:34.759 something to prove who the real perpetrator was. But this person, even though 57 00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:40.560 they've been exonerated and proven innocent, they've still had their reputation destroyed and no 58 00:04:40.600 --> 00:04:44.199 one looks at them the same way again. And with the Tracy Kirkpatrick case, 59 00:04:44.319 --> 00:04:46.560 like this person that a lot of people believe is the killer, Like 60 00:04:46.600 --> 00:04:50.519 he has never been named as a suspect or person of interest from law enforcement, 61 00:04:50.759 --> 00:04:54.639 and he's never spoken to the media or anything. So for all we 62 00:04:54.680 --> 00:04:59.199 know, maybe this guy has been the brunt of false accusations just because people 63 00:04:59.199 --> 00:05:02.399 like to gossip on fortunately about crimes, and sometimes innocent people get caught in 64 00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:05.759 the crossfire. And Joels, what do you think about what do you think 65 00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:10.839 about the stabbing aspect of this case. I always think of stabbing is really 66 00:05:10.920 --> 00:05:15.879 intimate, regardless of if there is any sexual elements to the crime, like 67 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:20.879 if she's been raped or sexually assaulted in any capacity. I always think there's 68 00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:25.920 something so intimate about that, and it can be like, you know, 69 00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:30.199 if somebody has a rectile dysfunction or something, they may choose stabbing, but 70 00:05:30.279 --> 00:05:33.639 I think it often indicates that you know the person in some capacity. There's 71 00:05:33.639 --> 00:05:39.240 a familiarity there. And then to answer your other question that you asked earlier 72 00:05:39.319 --> 00:05:45.639 about cases where somebody is basically within a community thought to have been the perpetrator, 73 00:05:45.680 --> 00:05:48.399 whether they've been charged or not, I always think of I can't remember 74 00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:54.639 the guy's name but there's that Texas Killing Fields documentary and they go into him 75 00:05:54.720 --> 00:05:57.560 in great detail, and I think he used to work for Nassau. He 76 00:05:57.639 --> 00:06:02.040 was incredibly brilliant and accentual, and he had some strange things in his home 77 00:06:02.199 --> 00:06:08.680 when it was searched. But he was basically debunked as being the guy who 78 00:06:08.800 --> 00:06:12.279 had committed all of these murders. But he ended up taking his own life. 79 00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:15.360 His life was changed for the worst. The stigma followed him everywhere. 80 00:06:15.720 --> 00:06:20.519 Even one of the fathers who would originally believe that he had murdered his daughter 81 00:06:21.040 --> 00:06:25.439 had changed his tune and feels a great deal of regret, and so did 82 00:06:25.480 --> 00:06:28.920 the sheriff. I think it was the sheriff or the detective who was in 83 00:06:29.000 --> 00:06:32.680 charge of the case, who's incredibly old. Now he looks back and there's 84 00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:36.199 a lot of regret there, and you can tell that he feels very emotional 85 00:06:36.519 --> 00:06:42.279 about the case, because so many lives are destroyed when these murders occur. 86 00:06:42.639 --> 00:06:46.600 And then when fingers are pointed at somebody just because they're strange or they're odd, 87 00:06:46.680 --> 00:06:50.839 we see that in so many cases. Our story begins in Maryland in 88 00:06:50.920 --> 00:06:56.519 nineteen eighty nine. Our central figure is seventeen year old Tracy Lynn Kirkpatrick, 89 00:06:56.920 --> 00:07:00.879 who lives in a small community of Point of Rocks with her parents, Billy 90 00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:04.319 and Dianne Kirkpatrick, and has two sisters and a brother. Tracy is a 91 00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:09.680 senior at Brunswick High School who also happens to be an honor student and is 92 00:07:09.759 --> 00:07:14.000 very passionate about poetry. In fact, a poem she wrote had recently been 93 00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:18.399 published in the New American Poetry Anthology. Tracy is hoping to attend Mount Saint 94 00:07:18.399 --> 00:07:24.120 Mary's University in the fall in order to study accounting, and once she gets 95 00:07:24.120 --> 00:07:27.800 a job in that field, she plans to save up enough money to attend 96 00:07:27.879 --> 00:07:32.439 law school. She currently holds down two part time jobs at the Westbridge Square 97 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:36.600 shopping center in the town of Frederick, which is about a twenty minute drive 98 00:07:36.680 --> 00:07:41.160 from Point of Rocks. One of the jobs is at a shoe store, 99 00:07:41.240 --> 00:07:45.759 while the other is at an adjacent clothing store called Eileen Ladies Sportswear, where 100 00:07:45.759 --> 00:07:48.800 Tracy works as a sales clerk. Even though Tracy's parents told her it was 101 00:07:48.839 --> 00:07:53.839 not necessary for her to work, she insisted on taking his jobs to help 102 00:07:53.839 --> 00:07:58.360 pay her own way through college and avoid burdening her family. On the evening 103 00:07:58.399 --> 00:08:01.759 of March fifteenth, Tracy was assigned to work the closing shift at Eileen Ladies 104 00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:07.120 Sportswear, and it would mark the first time she ever closed the store alone. 105 00:08:07.879 --> 00:08:11.079 That night, Diane visited Tracy at the store in order to bring her 106 00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:15.240 some food, and that around eight PM, the store manager also stopped by 107 00:08:15.319 --> 00:08:20.160 to check up on her. The last time anyone recalled seeing Tracy alive was 108 00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:24.480 at around eight forty five, fifteen minutes before closing time. She was scheduled 109 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:30.480 to come straight home immediately after her shift ended, but when eleven PM rolled 110 00:08:30.480 --> 00:08:35.519 around, Tracy had not shown up. Her parents became concerned, as Tracy 111 00:08:35.559 --> 00:08:37.480 had told them that if she did not return by that time, they should 112 00:08:37.480 --> 00:08:41.039 assume something was wrong and come get her. So Billie and Diane drove to 113 00:08:41.080 --> 00:08:45.480 the shopping center, but when they arrived, they were horrified to discover that 114 00:08:45.519 --> 00:08:48.360 the police were there. When Diane approached them, she immediately cried out, 115 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:52.799 quote, tell me nothing happened, Tell me there's nothing wrong with her. 116 00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:56.240 But unfortunately, the police told her that Tracy's body had been discovered inside the 117 00:08:56.240 --> 00:09:01.039 backstorage room of the clothing store. She had stabbed at at a total of 118 00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:05.360 seven times in both their back and chest. This news caused Diane to go 119 00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:09.080 into shock and she had to be treated at the hospital. I cannot even 120 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:15.679 imagine what Diane and her husband were going through. So at first I was 121 00:09:15.679 --> 00:09:18.000 thinking, Okay, Tracy, is this really responsible kid? She's going to 122 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:24.240 get these jobs to help her parents, and who's letting a seventeen year old 123 00:09:24.279 --> 00:09:26.480 close a store at night? And then I thought, well, I mean, 124 00:09:26.159 --> 00:09:31.519 you're an employee, and it sounds like she's incredibly mature, and it 125 00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:35.519 also sounds like her mom and the store manager are very kind of leary as 126 00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:37.080 well, of like, should a seventeen year old be closing late at night? 127 00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:41.159 I don't know, So they're all checking on her, and there's this 128 00:09:41.279 --> 00:09:46.480 what fifteen minute gap before closing where we I mean, maybe it happened after 129 00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:52.120 this nine o'clock time, but there's only fifteen minutes before closing that we don't 130 00:09:52.120 --> 00:09:54.799 know what happened to Tracy. And the next thing we know, her parents 131 00:09:54.840 --> 00:10:00.320 are pulling up and they see the police the lights and are begging for or 132 00:10:00.360 --> 00:10:05.440 their worst nightmare not to be true. And it is so correct me you 133 00:10:05.480 --> 00:10:07.559 says she was stabbed seven times in the chest and the back. So at 134 00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:11.120 some point either they rolled her over or she rolled over still alive, trying 135 00:10:11.159 --> 00:10:16.200 to defend herself. Correct possibly, Yeah, it's never really been specified, 136 00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:18.240 but that would make sense to me that maybe she fell down on one side 137 00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:22.840 and then rolled over and then they stabbed her more times on the other side. 138 00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:24.720 But like we've said many times already, it seems like this was some 139 00:10:24.759 --> 00:10:28.240 sort of crime of passion where you wonder, why would someone have so much 140 00:10:28.279 --> 00:10:33.320 hatred towards a seventeen year old girl to stab her that many times at her 141 00:10:33.320 --> 00:10:35.639 place of work, and which makes it even more brazen. Could you see 142 00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:41.799 the scenario being that this person somehow got behind her, stabbed her in the 143 00:10:41.799 --> 00:10:43.840 back those couple times, and as she fell to the ground, then kind 144 00:10:43.879 --> 00:10:48.279 of straddled her around the front and then continue to stab her in the chest. 145 00:10:48.159 --> 00:10:50.279 That would make sense, and for all we know, like maybe they 146 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:52.919 stabbed her in the back in the store, and then she crawled to the 147 00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:56.799 storage room and that's when they followed her there and stabbed her the other times. 148 00:10:56.840 --> 00:11:01.480 Because a lot of times employees are not going to bring like outside people 149 00:11:01.559 --> 00:11:03.759 into the storage room or the place of employment. They're generally not allowed to 150 00:11:03.799 --> 00:11:07.759 do that. But if she went there to try to escape or attacker, 151 00:11:07.879 --> 00:11:09.759 then that would explain why she was found there. Were she found on her 152 00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:16.039 back or on her front. They never really specified that the discovery of Tracy's 153 00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:20.720 body had been made by the shopping center security guard. He claimed that he'd 154 00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:24.399 passed by the store at around nine pm and noticed the lights were on, 155 00:11:24.559 --> 00:11:30.080 but just assumed Tracy was inside totaling the receipts and finishing her shift. However, 156 00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:33.759 the guard would pass by the store again at around ten forty five and 157 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:37.720 was surprised to see that the lights were still on since the front door was 158 00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:41.679 unlocked. The guard went inside and called out for Tracy, but he received 159 00:11:41.679 --> 00:11:46.399 no response. He then proceeded to walk into the storage room and found Tracy's 160 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:50.159 body before he contacted the police. There were no signs of forced entry or 161 00:11:50.200 --> 00:11:54.240 signs of a struggle, and Tracy did not have any defensive wounds, which 162 00:11:54.279 --> 00:11:58.200 seemed to indicate that the killer might have been someone she knew. The murder 163 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:03.360 weapon was to be found, but there was a ladsmere on the store's rear 164 00:12:03.399 --> 00:12:07.320 door, as well as a partial print, and blood drops were discovered in 165 00:12:07.320 --> 00:12:11.519 a rear hallway, which led to the loading dock. So, Tracy, 166 00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:15.279 I really do feel like when you talk about a stabbing case, it often 167 00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:20.159 is someone that the victim knows here. What's really disturbing is that unless there 168 00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:24.919 were scissors or something else in the store that we're used, the killer walked 169 00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:30.559 in with a knife with the intent to harm and or kill Tracy or whoever 170 00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:33.480 was there. And so in this case, when you talk about no defensive 171 00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:39.519 wounds, my original idea maybe she rolled over and was fighting for her wife. 172 00:12:39.919 --> 00:12:43.000 Maybe Jewels, you're right, maybe this person stabs her in the back 173 00:12:43.559 --> 00:12:46.240 when she falls to the floor, stabs on the front. But it's terrifying 174 00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:50.720 to think the murder weapon's not there. It's likely not a pair of scissors 175 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:54.240 or something from the store. So this person had a clear intent to do 176 00:12:54.279 --> 00:12:58.279 something incredibly intimate and violent. And then there's these blood drops that lead to 177 00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:05.240 the loading. Is it Tracy's blood or is it the perpetrator's blood? Didn't 178 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:07.879 Recci specified that. I'm assuming it's Tracy's, but I have to assume though, 179 00:13:07.919 --> 00:13:11.000 that if they found blood that belonged to the perpetrator, then they may 180 00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:15.759 have matched it to someone already and would have announced that publicly, so at 181 00:13:15.799 --> 00:13:18.240 the outset. The police were left completely baffled by the crime, as there 182 00:13:18.279 --> 00:13:22.399 didn't seem to be any apparent motive. Tracy was not sexually assaulted, and 183 00:13:22.519 --> 00:13:26.559 nothing had been robbed from the store. The cash register, which recorded its 184 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:31.399 last sale at around eight pm, still had sixty dollars in it, and 185 00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:35.440 there was even money lying on the counter, which Tracy had presumably been counting 186 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:39.279 right before she was killed. But Tracy's car, keys, store keys, 187 00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:43.759 and purse which contained very little money, we're missing. At the approximate time 188 00:13:43.799 --> 00:13:46.320 the shopping center closed. A man had been waiting on the front parking lot 189 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:50.320 for his girlfriend, but told police he did not see or hear anything unusual. 190 00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:56.000 Since Tracy was an incredibly well liked person and didn't have any known enemies, 191 00:13:56.279 --> 00:14:00.279 the crime had a devastating impact on her family in the community. Five 192 00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:03.399 thousand dollar reward would be offered for information leading to an arrest. When she 193 00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:07.200 was buried, Tracy's tombson would be inscribed with one of her favorite poems, 194 00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:13.720 Remember, written by the famous Victorian poet Christina Rosetti. This is so bizarre 195 00:14:15.080 --> 00:14:20.000 that there's money left in the in the till and there's also money line on 196 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:24.960 the counter, so clearly robbery was not the motive here. Again, this 197 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:28.720 person comes in with a knife, which is such a unique choice of weapon. 198 00:14:28.919 --> 00:14:33.399 Right, what it requires the perpetrator to do to their victim, how 199 00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:37.840 close they have to be to her, and so the money's there, yet 200 00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:43.519 you take her wallet and her keys, perhaps to remove some of her identity, 201 00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:48.200 make it harder for police know who she is. Very confusing that you 202 00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:52.000 would take that and not actual valuable things if you're going to take anything at 203 00:14:52.039 --> 00:14:54.320 all. Yeah, that part of the case is always confused me that they 204 00:14:54.360 --> 00:14:58.799 decided to steal their car keys, store keys, and purse and they've never 205 00:14:58.879 --> 00:15:01.200 been found. So did they just want to keep those as mementos or something? 206 00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:03.840 Because it's weird, Like you said that they would leave the money behind 207 00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:09.159 but take those other items. Three months after the murder, there'd be a 208 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:13.679 surprising development when the Frederick Police Department were contacted by an attorney who represented a 209 00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:20.320 nationwide television confession hotline in Las Vegas. The hotline was set up to charge 210 00:15:20.360 --> 00:15:24.399 callers to record confessions of their deepest secrets for strangers who would call and pay 211 00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:28.080 to listen to them, but they were taken aback when they received a call 212 00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:33.440 from a man who confessed to murder. The full audio of this recording was 213 00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:37.200 played on Unsolved Mysteries and is available online, but here's an exact word for 214 00:15:37.240 --> 00:15:41.559 word transcript of what the caller said. Hello, my name is Dawn and 215 00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:46.639 I'm calling from Frederick, Maryland. I know this is going to sound surprising, 216 00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:48.960 but three months ago I stabbed a girl to death. And you might 217 00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:52.279 think that by making this tape, I'm setting myself up to be caught, 218 00:15:54.279 --> 00:15:56.279 But there are a lot of guys named Don and Frederick. The girl I 219 00:15:56.480 --> 00:16:00.720 killed was working in the Ladies sportswear store. I often came by and talked 220 00:16:00.759 --> 00:16:03.919 to her while she was working alone, and one night, while she was 221 00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:07.919 in the storeroom and we were talking, our conversation turned into an argument, 222 00:16:08.200 --> 00:16:11.440 and so I took out a night that I have with me at all times, 223 00:16:11.679 --> 00:16:15.440 and I killed her. And a few days later I realized I created 224 00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:18.960 a lot of sadness, and I've thought about turning myself into the police, 225 00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:23.519 but whatever they do to me, they won't bring Tracy back. So I've 226 00:16:23.559 --> 00:16:29.720 decided by better keep free because we have the death penalty in Maryland. Thanks 227 00:16:29.720 --> 00:16:33.360 for listening. I'm sorry about what I did, but nothing can change it. 228 00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:41.799 Bye, love the sarcastic voice. Yeah wow, okay, so clear 229 00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:45.320 this up for me. Is this a law enforcement confessions line or is it 230 00:16:45.399 --> 00:16:49.360 something like the apology line? Have y'all heard that podcast where people would just 231 00:16:49.399 --> 00:16:53.679 call in and say things that they were remorseful for or confess things that they 232 00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:56.879 were hiding and then like just ta get it off their chest? Was it 233 00:16:57.039 --> 00:17:02.080 that? Or is this a lie for motivated No, it sounds like it's 234 00:17:02.120 --> 00:17:04.880 a confession line that's used exclusively for entertainment, like kind of a lightweight thing 235 00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:08.000 where they expect people to leave recording saying that, oh, one time I 236 00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:11.759 got drunk on a party and got naked or something light weight like that. 237 00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:15.279 But this one they were just taken by prize when a guy literally confessed or 238 00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:18.440 murder and they said, no, we better turn this over to law enforcement 239 00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:22.400 because they're specifically referencing a cold case which took place here in Maryland only a 240 00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:27.759 few months earlier. There's also a confession one I know because she's a fellow 241 00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:32.880 podcaster and she's like my friend's list is called in Bed with Nikki, where 242 00:17:32.920 --> 00:17:37.480 people like confess they're you know, deepest, darkest sexual things that they've done 243 00:17:37.559 --> 00:17:41.319 and things that they've never told anybody else. So people like confessions thing. 244 00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:44.400 I guess We've got two podcasts for them, in Bed with Nikki and what 245 00:17:44.519 --> 00:17:48.759 is it? The apology podcast. Okay, so the apology line is fascinating. 246 00:17:48.839 --> 00:17:52.880 I'm just I'm a true crime fan as well as a criminologist, but 247 00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:56.319 the apology line is basically this guy who became mister Apology and he just for 248 00:17:56.440 --> 00:18:00.960 fun was like I'm gonna set up my answering machine and have people call and 249 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:03.200 say I'm sorry to people or like you know, kind of reveal these things 250 00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:07.519 they're remorseful for, and it takes him down to like a really dangerous path 251 00:18:07.559 --> 00:18:11.119 when he be friends one of the people who may or may not be criminals. 252 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:15.799 So it's fascinating, but his was really for entertainment purposes, and then 253 00:18:15.799 --> 00:18:19.519 he started to get these darker, heavier apologies that it's kind of like what 254 00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:22.599 do you do with that information? Like when does it not become entertainment and 255 00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:29.119 it becomes dangerous in unburdening all of them he's getting burdened with all of this 256 00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:33.079 information and it's like dark, insidious presence in his life. I am so 257 00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:37.079 checking that out. It's so good. Okay, Now let me ask you 258 00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:40.000 this. Have you guys seen have you seen Blackbird on Apple TV? With 259 00:18:40.359 --> 00:18:44.960 Larry the serial killer who's befriended in prison and they try to get him to 260 00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:48.000 confess to his crimes. Oh, Larry Dwayne Hall. We talked about him 261 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:52.680 on previous episodes. Yes, okay, So when you listen to this guy's 262 00:18:52.720 --> 00:18:53.880 call and he's talking about how, oh, I used to visit her a 263 00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:57.039 lot, like we were really friendly. One night we were talking and it 264 00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:02.440 wasn't friendly anymore. Reminded me of some of the things that he would say 265 00:19:02.440 --> 00:19:06.359 in real life. But talking about these thirteen fourteen year old girls and how 266 00:19:06.759 --> 00:19:08.519 they would be so nice to him and then all of a sudden they weren't. 267 00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:12.079 It almost sounds like this man is saying, listen, I'm this older 268 00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:18.440 man, I'm having this inappropriate kind of intrigue with this seventeen year old girl. 269 00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:22.440 And she entertains it because she's at work and she's a kind naive, 270 00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:27.200 sweet kid who's talking to this grown man and then when it crosses the line 271 00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:30.000 and she says, I don't like this. You make me uncomfortable, Please 272 00:19:30.039 --> 00:19:36.359 stop back away. Once that child puts up a resistance and these adults who 273 00:19:36.359 --> 00:19:40.359 are infatuated with him turn into this rage and anger because of the rejection, 274 00:19:40.480 --> 00:19:42.200 Like do you think it could be something like that? Oh? Yeah, 275 00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:47.039 that would make sense to me because you mentioned earlier that the idea that she 276 00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:49.400 was stabbed and there was no murder weapon means that the killer brought the knife 277 00:19:49.400 --> 00:19:52.599 into the store with them. But the way this guy on the confession says 278 00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:55.920 that, it says, well, he just happens to carry this knife on 279 00:19:56.000 --> 00:19:59.759 him at all times, and he wasn't intending on killing Tracy. But because 280 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:03.319 add an argument and thinks escalated out of control, that's when he took out 281 00:20:03.319 --> 00:20:06.839 the knife and stabbed her. Don't you remember being that age, ash and 282 00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:12.160 like inappropriate uncomfortable situations that you would get into with adult males, where like 283 00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:17.960 you're conditioned when you're younger, especially like we're both older millennials. We were 284 00:20:18.039 --> 00:20:22.799 conditioned to be nice, always being nice, and now I think younger girls 285 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:26.519 are being conditioned to be rude when you need to be you don't need to 286 00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:30.839 be kind to these adult creepy men who are crossing boundaries and making you feel 287 00:20:32.200 --> 00:20:34.640 pressured in some situation to like flirt with them or be nice to them. 288 00:20:36.039 --> 00:20:40.440 And so I can totally imagine a situation that you set up ash where this 289 00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:45.160 guy's being an effing creep and he probably has been there a few times and 290 00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:48.160 tried to, like in his own mind, lay the groundwork to some potential 291 00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:53.200 relationship, and when she kind of thwarts his efforts by being like, hey, 292 00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:56.559 no, this isn't going to happen, he then gets angry, like 293 00:20:56.599 --> 00:21:00.559 that's really the only plausible scenario that seems to make sense in my own mind 294 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:04.720 unless there was some kind of like thrill kill element. But I just I 295 00:21:04.759 --> 00:21:08.279 just don't really think that's the case here. No, I think it was 296 00:21:08.359 --> 00:21:11.440 more rejection motivated or some kind of like I stood up for myself and you 297 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:17.039 didn't like it. And what's really freaky is that it doesn't stop with like 298 00:21:17.079 --> 00:21:19.880 when we're older women. Like today in my store, I had a man 299 00:21:19.960 --> 00:21:26.519 walk in who was very intoxicated and wouldn't stop with inappropriate comments, and I 300 00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:27.880 told him like, hey, I mean my personal space, Please back up, 301 00:21:27.880 --> 00:21:30.480 and then he said, I just want to hug you. I just 302 00:21:30.519 --> 00:21:33.440 want to touch you because you're so nice. And I had called rebel the 303 00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:37.680 moment he walked in, because he gave me really uncomfortable vibes and just left 304 00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:40.400 it kind of on speaker phone so he could hear. But it took me 305 00:21:40.440 --> 00:21:42.880 a good thirty minutes and he got a more aggressive the more I asked him 306 00:21:42.920 --> 00:21:47.920 to please back away. And so it's like this idea of when you don't 307 00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:52.160 comply and when you put up a boundary someone who has that kind of anger 308 00:21:52.200 --> 00:21:56.920 insecurity, I don't know mental health issue. I really do think it causes 309 00:21:56.960 --> 00:22:00.240 them to become very motivated to get you to be quiet and to stop being 310 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:04.759 mean and ugly. And do you find that as you've gotten older, Like 311 00:22:04.759 --> 00:22:08.160 my husband and I were discussing this the other day, and I think when 312 00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:11.759 young women who are like seventeen years old haven't yet learned to do this, 313 00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:15.960 But I think as I think it happens to all women. But like my 314 00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:19.799 husband will always notice when you know we're out in public, He's like, 315 00:22:19.839 --> 00:22:22.599 everybody stares at you, and I'm like, he's like, but you don't 316 00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:26.119 even clock it. You don't even notice. And I'm like, it's something 317 00:22:26.119 --> 00:22:33.920 over the years that I've personally conditioned myself to just block out because I'm somebody 318 00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:37.680 that feels very uncomfortable with too much attention, and so it makes me just 319 00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:41.680 want to like hide in a ball and never go outside if I actually pay 320 00:22:41.720 --> 00:22:45.880 attention. But I don't think when you're a teenager you've built that armor. 321 00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:48.519 Is that your experience as oh, for sure? And even as an adult, 322 00:22:48.559 --> 00:22:52.279 I think it's hard because we are so ingrained to be kind and I'm 323 00:22:52.319 --> 00:22:56.720 a people pleaser and I'm an entertainer and I'm a you know, especially at 324 00:22:56.759 --> 00:23:00.039 my store that's my domain. So people come for a little piece of me 325 00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:03.759 out of a loving way, I hope often, do you know what I 326 00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:07.440 mean? But I also think they'll take whatever they want out of you. 327 00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:11.000 Two. So yes, I think it's it's very uncomfortable. I actually had 328 00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:14.000 Rebel come picked me up at work three hours early because I just I went, 329 00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:15.000 I feel gross, do you know what I mean? Like I don't 330 00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:19.920 like it? And so but yes, as a kid, I can remember 331 00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:23.759 like being you know, fifteen and having someone who worked with me who is 332 00:23:23.799 --> 00:23:27.440 twenty eight or thirty five, like at that age, that big of an 333 00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:30.960 age gap, not appropriate doing things, and me always going like can I 334 00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:34.119 stand up for myself like they're a superior of minor. I don't want to 335 00:23:34.119 --> 00:23:37.119 get in trouble at my little summer camp job, you know what I mean, 336 00:23:37.160 --> 00:23:41.000 and being scared to stand up for myself. And even now it's hard 337 00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:45.839 to say you've crossed a boundary. I'm uncomfortable because it makes people angry to 338 00:23:45.839 --> 00:23:48.559 be called out on that. I just listened to a while ago High Low 339 00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:52.799 with em Rata and she had Bella Thorne on her podcast, and it just 340 00:23:52.839 --> 00:23:56.200 stuck with me because Bella was saying when she was thirteen years old, she 341 00:23:56.240 --> 00:24:00.559 was doing an audition and the director accused her of flirting with him, and 342 00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:04.720 it's like, she's a child. The fact that you, as a grown 343 00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:10.000 man, would see something sexual in the way that she was playing this role 344 00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:15.079 or smiling or anything sexualizing a child like that is just so uncomfortable, and 345 00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:18.880 it feels like there's a very real possibility that in this case, somebody was 346 00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:23.400 doing that to Tracy. That's literally where my gut feels right this second. 347 00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:27.839 They thought there was something that wasn't there. She eventually said I'm uncomfortable and 348 00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:33.559 that wasn't okay. So since the caller never mentioned Tracy's name, it seemed 349 00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:37.240 obvious he was referring to her. Investigators became convinced that the confession side is 350 00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:42.200 genuine and that the man calling himself down really was Tracy's killer. They were 351 00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:45.640 able to trace the call to a payphone outside a supermarket in the town of 352 00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:51.680 Walkersville, located only eight miles outside of Frederick. In response, the police 353 00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:55.319 decided to publish a letter in the local newspaper, the Frederick News Post, 354 00:24:55.559 --> 00:24:59.599 on October the tenth, nineteen eighty nine, urging don to come forward a 355 00:25:00.039 --> 00:25:03.160 during him that they were available if if you needed someone to talk to. 356 00:25:03.880 --> 00:25:07.839 The Frederick County State's attorney also publicly announced that the state would not seek the 357 00:25:07.880 --> 00:25:11.680 death penalty if an arrest was made. However, the police never received any 358 00:25:11.720 --> 00:25:15.279 response from Dawn. So I'm thinking one of two things, This truly is 359 00:25:15.319 --> 00:25:21.319 the killer who's making this phone call, because they are so centrally located to 360 00:25:21.480 --> 00:25:25.039 this area, right like they're only a couple of miles away from where she 361 00:25:25.279 --> 00:25:30.279 was murdered. Or is it all the coverage and all of the attention makes 362 00:25:30.440 --> 00:25:34.119 this person want to be a part of the case, and therefore they assert 363 00:25:34.200 --> 00:25:38.119 themselves into like we've seen many times before, into the case, so that 364 00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:41.640 they are somebody, or they have some link or get some kind of energy 365 00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:45.279 going in the community. So I think it could be either holy cow, 366 00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:48.400 he's eight miles away from the city making this call on a pay phone, 367 00:25:48.440 --> 00:25:52.480 it's him, or it's again some creep who just wants to be a part 368 00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:56.440 of it. What's your gut tell you, Robin. I'm curious because you 369 00:25:56.480 --> 00:25:59.759 know this case better than both Ashley and I. I want to know what 370 00:25:59.799 --> 00:26:03.519 you think. Well, back when I watched this segment back on Unsolved Mysteries 371 00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:07.319 during the early nineteen nineties, I was inclined to think that the caller was 372 00:26:07.400 --> 00:26:10.720 the killer. That when you hear the audio, it just sounds too genuine. 373 00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:14.400 It does not sound like your standard hoax prank call. But as we're 374 00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:15.920 going to talk about later on, it seems like as the years have gone 375 00:26:15.920 --> 00:26:18.799 on, police have said that we do not believe that the person who made 376 00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:22.759 the call who is the real killer. They seem to have other people in 377 00:26:22.839 --> 00:26:26.039 mind. So, but just some of the ways the phrases that he uses 378 00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:29.359 in the call, Like he says that, well, I want to turn 379 00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:32.319 myself in, but I better not because we have the death penalty. Like 380 00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:36.640 that almost sounds like he's justifying himself where he wants to confess and get something 381 00:26:36.680 --> 00:26:40.160 off his tech chest, but he doesn't want to face any actual consequences, 382 00:26:40.400 --> 00:26:42.039 so he's coming up with this rationale saying that, well, if I turned 383 00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:45.680 myself in, I'll be executed, so I better keep free. It's sort 384 00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:52.079 of like the is that the Axe Man of New Orleans or Jack the Ripper 385 00:26:52.440 --> 00:26:56.440 or you know BTK, all these people that or Zodiac, all these people 386 00:26:56.480 --> 00:27:00.400 that communicate with law enforcement, but this is different because it's not rectly with 387 00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:04.000 law enforcement. I just think it's so bizarre that people would pay to call 388 00:27:04.039 --> 00:27:07.079 a hot line to confess. You'd think that, like, if other people 389 00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:11.079 are going to be listening to this, they're paying to listen, so to 390 00:27:11.200 --> 00:27:14.599 confess it should be for free. Yeah, it's so weird. I guess 391 00:27:14.599 --> 00:27:18.319 that's the only option they have back then in the pre pre podcast days, 392 00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:19.720 where if you wanted to make a public confession, you would have to call 393 00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:23.960 these hotlines. Either that or you go sneak into a Catholic church and go 394 00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:27.799 into confession. I oh yeah, yeah, that's a much better chance that 395 00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:32.359 the priest will not turn you in. Which case was it that we covered 396 00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:34.599 where it was like somebody was going to do a confession and then they were 397 00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:37.799 like ended their own life. Yeah, the William L. Toomey case where 398 00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:41.319 he was the unidentified Ja Joe who was waiting for confession and then he jested 399 00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:47.680 Sinai before it could happen. But two weeks after going public about Don's phone 400 00:27:47.680 --> 00:27:52.279 call, the Frederick PD was contacted by Martha Woodworth, a self proclaimed psychic 401 00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:59.359 from Massachusetts. Woodworth claim she'd repeatedly been contacted by a man calling himself Sean, 402 00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:03.119 who seemed to have an obsession with Tracy Kirkpatrick's murder and catching the person 403 00:28:03.160 --> 00:28:07.799 who killed her. When Woodworth asked for more information about the case, Sean 404 00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:12.240 sent her an envelope filled with newspaper clippings. However, she said that Shahn's 405 00:28:12.279 --> 00:28:17.680 handwriting gave her a bad feeling and made her believe that he was more involved 406 00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:21.680 in the crime than he led on. When Woodworth contacted the police, they 407 00:28:21.720 --> 00:28:26.160 played her a recording of Don's confession. She said that she recognized his voice 408 00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:30.880 and was convinced that Dawn and Sean were one and the same. The envelope 409 00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:36.119 Sean sent to Woodworth also happened to have a return address in Walkersville, the 410 00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:41.000 same town where Don's phone call originated from. Police checked into the address and 411 00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:44.319 found out there was a young man living there, and even though his name 412 00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:48.440 was never released publicly, it was not Don or Sean. Now that would 413 00:28:48.440 --> 00:28:52.599 not be crazy. Do you guys remember the guys who had the boat and 414 00:28:52.759 --> 00:28:55.599 claimed that they had crashed this boat for an insurance claim, and it was 415 00:28:55.599 --> 00:28:57.440 like their real name was Don Johnson. So they said, like, I'm 416 00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:03.200 Johnson Dawn or yeah, yes, yes, just like completely, like hey, 417 00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:06.880 let's say my same name, so like I'm you know, Smashley, 418 00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:10.000 not Ashley. But it's like, you know, they did John Russell and 419 00:29:10.119 --> 00:29:15.119 Russell Johnson, like yes, So I mean that that would make sense. 420 00:29:15.240 --> 00:29:19.759 And I do find it really interesting that you have not just a psychic saying 421 00:29:21.079 --> 00:29:25.279 hey, I've seen this person in my mind, but she actually had interactions 422 00:29:25.319 --> 00:29:29.400 with this guy who's saying like, I'm basically this super fan of the case, 423 00:29:29.559 --> 00:29:33.200 and I'm this couch sleuth who's trying to help catch somebody does make it 424 00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:37.720 a little bit kind of uncomfortable where you're going. Okay, but why why 425 00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:41.720 are you so fascinated with this? Um? Do you find it ironic that 426 00:29:41.759 --> 00:29:45.400 she said their voices sounded the same. Yeah, like you listen to the 427 00:29:45.480 --> 00:29:49.160 voice, it's not the best quality. But and I've never actually heard Sean's 428 00:29:49.240 --> 00:29:53.599 voice, so I can't say that one certainty that he's the same person who 429 00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:56.400 made the call. But she seemed to think though, that they were the 430 00:29:56.400 --> 00:30:00.960 same person. But I mean, if being as to the case, it's 431 00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:03.680 like they could come for you, Robin, on all these unfold bases, 432 00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:08.759 if that qualifies you as being somebody who is a likely perpetrator, like we 433 00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:12.039 are all in trouble. Yeah. They always say that, never let the 434 00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:17.000 FBI seize our computers and see our Google searches, because they'll think really bad 435 00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:21.920 things about us. Man. I used to really worry when I and I 436 00:30:21.960 --> 00:30:26.000 did a lot of research on homicide and sexual assault. I would type in 437 00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:30.079 the most horrific descriptions, do images and all kinds of things, and I'd 438 00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:33.960 go, oh, shoot, I need to really be on the radar because 439 00:30:34.039 --> 00:30:40.200 it's such inappropriate stuff. That I'm searching all relevant, but man, my 440 00:30:40.559 --> 00:30:42.440 Google search used to be quite disturbing. Oh, I'm sure you're on a 441 00:30:42.440 --> 00:30:48.319 watch list. We probably all are, totally so. In March the fifteenth, 442 00:30:48.440 --> 00:30:52.319 nineteen ninety, the one year anniversary of the crime, four local radio 443 00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:56.839 stations agreed to simultaneously air the recording of Don's confession and hopes that someone listening 444 00:30:56.920 --> 00:31:00.599 might recognize his voice and come forward. Well, sure enough, three people 445 00:31:00.599 --> 00:31:04.480 soon called in, who all said that they recognized Dawn as the aforementioned a 446 00:31:04.519 --> 00:31:10.119 young man from Walkersville who called himself Sewan. This prompted a police to question 447 00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:12.799 him and get a warrant to search his home. Samples of the young man's 448 00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:17.599 blood and hair were taken for analysis, but ultimately failed to link him to 449 00:31:17.640 --> 00:31:19.960 the crime. As it turned out the only blood found at the murder scene 450 00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:23.599 belonged to Tracy. While a search of this man's residence turned up a lot 451 00:31:23.640 --> 00:31:27.519 of newspaper clippings and material to suggest he had an obsession with the case, 452 00:31:27.799 --> 00:31:32.680 there was no direct evidence to implicate him in the crime and no indication that 453 00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:37.119 he even knew Tracy personally. He decided to plead the Fifth Amendment and refused 454 00:31:37.119 --> 00:31:41.799 to answer any questions. It's not entirely clear how or when they came to 455 00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:45.920 this conclusion, but police would eventually rule out the young man from Walkersville as 456 00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:49.279 a suspect. The case would be featured on Unsolved Mysteries in January of nineteen 457 00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:52.519 ninety one, as well as an episode of a Current Affair, but the 458 00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:57.920 investigation eventually came to a standstill, so the police completely ruled him out. 459 00:31:57.960 --> 00:32:00.640 They said, this is not our guy, pretty much like I don't know 460 00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:04.480 if they could say with one percent certainty that he couldn't have been the guy, 461 00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:07.759 but their gut instinct told them that he's probably just a guy who's obsessed 462 00:32:07.799 --> 00:32:10.240 with the case and not the actual killer. For me, when I was 463 00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:13.359 when I was listening and he said, you know, he pled the fifth 464 00:32:13.720 --> 00:32:17.200 the fifth, so he doesn't have to incriminate himself. I totally understand where 465 00:32:17.200 --> 00:32:21.079 people come from. But immediately people go see it told you he's guilty, 466 00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:23.559 and it comes to a point like my husband and I talk all the time 467 00:32:23.680 --> 00:32:27.480 where we say, listen, you pull me into a police interrogation room, 468 00:32:27.799 --> 00:32:30.400 you come in to search my property. I'm quiet till I have an attorney, 469 00:32:30.440 --> 00:32:36.200 and I'm not guilty of anything. So I often like once you find 470 00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:37.640 yourself in that hot seat and you go, oh, shoot, this is 471 00:32:37.720 --> 00:32:42.599 serious, right, Like my newspaper clippings have turned into a legit, like 472 00:32:42.640 --> 00:32:45.880 I must suspect. I don't blame him for saying I'm not going to say 473 00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:49.119 anything to you, your husband. I love that for you. It's the 474 00:32:49.160 --> 00:32:52.119 first time I've heard you refer to rebel like that, and I love it. 475 00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:54.319 Yeah, you know, we do top seeker things like go get married 476 00:32:54.319 --> 00:33:01.480 in our favorite date spot and things like that. A Frederick police detective named 477 00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:06.440 Bob Serviceeck took over the case, and, by all accounts, it completely 478 00:33:06.440 --> 00:33:09.599 consumed his life until he became convinced he figured out who the killer was. 479 00:33:10.279 --> 00:33:15.279 While the evidence against the suspect was circumstantial, Serviceick decided to submit it to 480 00:33:15.319 --> 00:33:20.559 a grand jury in June of nineteen ninety four. While the suspect's name was 481 00:33:20.599 --> 00:33:23.559 never made public, Serviceeck said that he was in his mid to late twenties, 482 00:33:23.920 --> 00:33:27.880 lived in the Frederick area at the time of the murder, and was 483 00:33:27.920 --> 00:33:31.720 an acquaintance of Tracy through a mutual circle of friends. Serviceick believed that the 484 00:33:31.759 --> 00:33:37.119 crime was driven by jealousy, anger, and revenge, theorizing that the killer 485 00:33:37.160 --> 00:33:40.319 had feelings for Tracy and could not handle it when Tracy told him that she 486 00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:45.119 only wanted to be friends. After examining all the evidence, two thirds of 487 00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:50.960 the grand jury voted to indict the suspect, but the Deputy States Attorney's office 488 00:33:51.039 --> 00:33:54.880 ultimately decided not to move forward with an arrest in prosecution, as they feared 489 00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:59.680 there was still not enough evidence to bring him to trial and secure a conviction 490 00:33:59.720 --> 00:34:04.440 with a jury. According to Billy Kirkpatrick, the Deputy state Attorney told her, 491 00:34:04.519 --> 00:34:07.599 quote, I can get indictments on both of them with the information we 492 00:34:07.679 --> 00:34:10.639 have. I can get an indictment on each of them, but it would 493 00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:14.519 end for each of them the same way. If it went to trial, 494 00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:16.840 a defense attorney will say, well, the other guy is there and you 495 00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:22.039 can't prove he did it. End quote. This decision left service Check so 496 00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:25.880 frustrated that it helped influence his decision to retire from the police force the following 497 00:34:25.960 --> 00:34:31.199 year. Okay, so I am in total agreement here with a murder case. 498 00:34:31.320 --> 00:34:35.000 One of the biggest things and one of kind of the scariest things at 499 00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:37.519 that moment when you say do we make an arrest, do we actually indict 500 00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:43.760 a suspect or not? Because we know in America, good luck. You 501 00:34:43.840 --> 00:34:49.599 get one shot to make an arrest, indict somebody with a crime, take 502 00:34:49.639 --> 00:34:52.480 them to trial, and hope that you get a conviction, right, and 503 00:34:52.519 --> 00:34:55.320 then reveal the truth. If you miss, you don't get to do it 504 00:34:55.360 --> 00:34:59.679 again. Right, even if after they walk out of the courtroom they say 505 00:34:59.719 --> 00:35:01.679 they right, if you miss, you don't get a second shot. So 506 00:35:02.039 --> 00:35:07.039 I've worked so many cold cases with law enforcement where we're sitting there going it 507 00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:10.760 is so obvious, this is so obvious that it's this person, but we 508 00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:15.400 cannot take it to a trial. I don't care what anyone else says, 509 00:35:15.519 --> 00:35:20.559 Right, we don't have that silver bullet, that kind of key piece of 510 00:35:20.599 --> 00:35:25.480 evidence that is going to ziplock and completely make sure this case results in a 511 00:35:25.559 --> 00:35:30.920 guilty verdict. And because I'm so confident that this person is actually dangerous, 512 00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:34.719 I don't want to miss our shot. I always think of law abiding citizen, 513 00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:37.760 doesn't you say something like, it's not what you know, it's what 514 00:35:37.880 --> 00:35:40.000 you can prove in court. And I always think about that because there's so 515 00:35:40.039 --> 00:35:45.199 many cases where you absolutely think this is the person. There seems to be 516 00:35:45.360 --> 00:35:49.760 like nobody who's debating that. But yet there just isn't enough to indict them 517 00:35:49.800 --> 00:35:52.800 for the murder and to have that case fall apart, because if you take 518 00:35:52.840 --> 00:35:54.519 a shot, you best not miss. You only get one bite of that 519 00:35:54.559 --> 00:36:00.840 apple. And I can understand why prosecutors do that for multiple reasons, because 520 00:36:00.440 --> 00:36:06.480 you know their position will depend upon how many successful prosecutions they have. And 521 00:36:06.519 --> 00:36:09.039 then number two, you want to be able to secure that conviction and get 522 00:36:09.079 --> 00:36:14.199 this potential killer off the street. And if you're a case that falls apart, 523 00:36:14.239 --> 00:36:16.320 it looks bad on so many different levels. You can't get justice for 524 00:36:16.360 --> 00:36:22.320 the family. And then you know your record of nine percent convictions falls apart 525 00:36:22.360 --> 00:36:27.039 as well, and so your averages go down, and those things do matter. 526 00:36:27.800 --> 00:36:30.440 And judify those comments from the Deputy States Attorney. It's hounds like that 527 00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:35.960 they had another potential suspect in mind, which maybe had an equal amount of 528 00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:39.320 evidence or even more evidence than the suspect that Servicheck was trying to indict, 529 00:36:39.559 --> 00:36:43.719 and pretty much said that we don't know if this other person did it, 530 00:36:43.800 --> 00:36:49.079 but his presence alone generates reasonable doubt that if we take servicheck suspect to trial, 531 00:36:49.159 --> 00:36:52.000 then they can just point to this other person and say this is the 532 00:36:52.039 --> 00:36:53.960 person who really did it, and it could lead to an acquittal. So 533 00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:58.000 I can see why they would be reluctant to bring either of these people to 534 00:36:58.039 --> 00:37:00.760 trial without more damning evidence. Do you think it could have been the security 535 00:37:00.760 --> 00:37:04.920 guard as a second suspect. Possibly. We're going to talk more about the 536 00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:07.400 security guard later on in the episode, but a lot of gossip is around 537 00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:10.880 that the person who found Tracy's body could have been the person who killed her, 538 00:37:12.079 --> 00:37:15.639 but it's never been specified if the security guard was the guy that Servicheck 539 00:37:15.719 --> 00:37:19.320 had in mind, or if he adds someone else in that he thought was 540 00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:22.519 the killer. In two thousand and nine, the Frederick News Post published a 541 00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:28.400 series of articles about the twentieth anniversary of Tracy's murder, and Bob Servicheck gave 542 00:37:28.440 --> 00:37:31.719 a very outspoken interview in which he outlined his frustration, stating, quote, 543 00:37:31.960 --> 00:37:36.239 this case was solved in nineteen ninety four. As far as I was concerned, 544 00:37:36.440 --> 00:37:40.039 what derailed the process was politics and personal agendas. Certain individuals did not 545 00:37:40.119 --> 00:37:45.199 do their jobs and derailed the case end quote. Around the same time, 546 00:37:45.239 --> 00:37:50.480 period. The commander of the Frederick Police Department's Criminal Investigation Division confirmed that two 547 00:37:50.519 --> 00:37:54.000 promising suspects had developed over the years, and DNA samples were taken from both 548 00:37:54.039 --> 00:37:58.480 of them, but he just lacked the final piece of the puzzle to conclusively 549 00:37:58.519 --> 00:38:02.159 determine if either of them committed the crime. Well, DNA testing was performed 550 00:38:02.199 --> 00:38:07.039 on evidence found at the crime scene. The size of the DNA samples proved 551 00:38:07.079 --> 00:38:12.320 insufficient enough to develop a genetic profile of the killer, while TOUCH samples were 552 00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:15.400 submitted to a private contractor for the Maryland State Police in two thousand and nine. 553 00:38:15.800 --> 00:38:20.320 It doesn't sound like this lead anywhere. So after thirty four years, 554 00:38:20.599 --> 00:38:24.320 the murder of Tracy Kirkpatrick continues to remain unsolved. So I guess you could 555 00:38:24.360 --> 00:38:30.199 say the path went chilly. Well. I have not done any research into 556 00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:32.599 this case, of course, But when you're talking to me about the fact 557 00:38:32.679 --> 00:38:37.239 that online there's a name that often gets circulated, is that the individual that 558 00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:43.079 he's referring to. He's never specified that, But as we're going to talk 559 00:38:43.079 --> 00:38:46.599 about, this individual is from a family that might has connections in the area. 560 00:38:46.760 --> 00:38:50.159 So I kind of if you rebuilt between the lines, think that he 561 00:38:50.239 --> 00:38:53.079 might be referring to them, and that when he mentions politics and personal agendas, 562 00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:58.800 he feels that either the deputy States Attorney was too scared to indict this 563 00:38:58.840 --> 00:39:01.639 guy because he had a lot of power, or maybe his family was stepping 564 00:39:01.639 --> 00:39:05.840 in and ensuring that there was a cover up and that he wouldn't be charged 565 00:39:05.840 --> 00:39:09.400 with the murder. He's one of these people that Servicheck is one of these 566 00:39:09.440 --> 00:39:15.039 people that I love. I mean, we've had many prosecutors, law enforcement 567 00:39:15.039 --> 00:39:19.400 officials, investigators where we always talk about, you know, hey, somebody 568 00:39:19.480 --> 00:39:22.440 dropped the ball, that's why this case isn't solved. But then there's these 569 00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:25.400 heroes and say like, listen, I keep fighting, I keep telling you 570 00:39:25.880 --> 00:39:29.679 what you know, what I think I know, and I need to get 571 00:39:29.719 --> 00:39:32.400 justice in this case. I love when we have people in our cases where 572 00:39:32.440 --> 00:39:39.639 they're really driven and emotionally charged to capture whoever did the crime. So it 573 00:39:39.679 --> 00:39:44.599 makes me smile when I hear how passionate he is about this case. Oh 574 00:39:44.679 --> 00:39:46.719 yeah, especially the fact that he said that it pretty much consumed his whole 575 00:39:46.760 --> 00:39:50.400 life when he was investigating it, and from what I can tell from the 576 00:39:50.440 --> 00:39:53.800 Kirkpatrick family loved him saying that if you want a family member's murdered to be 577 00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:58.679 solved, this is the guy that you want on the investigation. But unfortunately 578 00:39:59.159 --> 00:40:00.920 it was out of his hand because he presented all the evidence he had to 579 00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:05.559 the grand jury, but it just wasn't enough to indict. You gotta feel 580 00:40:05.559 --> 00:40:08.559 like the game is rigged at some points, especially when if he's correct, 581 00:40:08.599 --> 00:40:14.320 and if there is politics and you know, cover ups because of an influential 582 00:40:14.360 --> 00:40:17.440 family, you feel like you do all this work and because you presented the 583 00:40:17.480 --> 00:40:22.599 wrong suspect from the right family, I guess that nothing is going to go 584 00:40:22.679 --> 00:40:28.400 forward and that is influencing the outcome. Like I had to be so frustrating, 585 00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:30.639 and like, how old was he? Do you know when he retired? 586 00:40:30.360 --> 00:40:34.599 I'm not entirely sure. I think he was regular retirement age, but 587 00:40:34.960 --> 00:40:37.920 I think he probably, under normal circumstances, would have wanted to work for 588 00:40:37.960 --> 00:40:39.960 a couple more years. But he just found the whole situation frustrated that he 589 00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:45.679 pretty much said, I'm done now before we go any further, I'm going 590 00:40:45.719 --> 00:40:47.719 to have to address the elephant in the room with this case, and that's 591 00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:52.199 the fact that the security guard who discovered Tracy's body just happened to be named 592 00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:57.679 Don. His full name is Don Barnes Junior, and at the time he 593 00:40:57.840 --> 00:41:01.000 was a deputy for the Frederick County Sheriff's Office and doing some moonlighting as a 594 00:41:01.039 --> 00:41:06.400 security guard. Numerous media outlets have published his name since he is the person 595 00:41:06.440 --> 00:41:09.599 who found Tracy, But even though he's never been publicly named as a suspect 596 00:41:09.719 --> 00:41:15.119 or person of interest by law enforcement, there are a lot of unsubstantiated rumors 597 00:41:15.159 --> 00:41:19.920 online that Dawn was Tracy's killer. It's also worth noting that Don's father, 598 00:41:20.119 --> 00:41:23.480 Don Barnes Senior, was a very prominent law enforcement official in the area. 599 00:41:23.679 --> 00:41:28.159 He had served two terms as Frederick County Sheriff, though he was out of 600 00:41:28.159 --> 00:41:30.800 office by the time this crime took place and passed away in twenty ten. 601 00:41:32.159 --> 00:41:37.719 So bizarre. I wonder if a caller who was calling to confess would actually 602 00:41:37.800 --> 00:41:40.159 use their own name, though, because once he says, hey, this 603 00:41:40.239 --> 00:41:44.239 is Dawn, you think, okay, listen, you found her body, 604 00:41:44.360 --> 00:41:46.559 right, the guy named Don found her body. So would it be that 605 00:41:46.760 --> 00:41:52.960 blatant you think on the phone call itself to say, this is my real 606 00:41:52.039 --> 00:41:55.320 name. I'm going to call eight miles from where she was killed, Like, 607 00:41:55.400 --> 00:42:00.199 doesn't that just seem like a come get me? Although we have seen 608 00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:02.920 that with other killers in the past, where they are foolish enough to provide 609 00:42:02.920 --> 00:42:07.559 information and to taunt the police in a way that is pretty wild. But 610 00:42:07.679 --> 00:42:10.440 the thing with this guy is that he was a sheriff's deputy. So if 611 00:42:10.480 --> 00:42:14.880 he was the one who made the call and left that recorded confession, you'd 612 00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:19.119 think that someone would be able to recognize his voice and solve this case. 613 00:42:19.159 --> 00:42:22.039 But the fact that this hasn't happened leads me to believe that Don Barnes Junior 614 00:42:22.199 --> 00:42:25.679 was not the person who made the call, But also make you wonder is 615 00:42:25.719 --> 00:42:29.960 there a reason that the callers selected the name Don, Like, did he 616 00:42:30.400 --> 00:42:34.480 have some idea that Don Barnes Junior might be the killer and this was his 617 00:42:34.519 --> 00:42:38.880 way of putting his name out there, or or was some of the media 618 00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:44.199 coverage did it say, you know, security officer Don Barnes Junior located the 619 00:42:44.239 --> 00:42:47.360 young victim, and you know, and then because they were someone who was 620 00:42:47.400 --> 00:42:52.840 following the case, they were able to pick that name, which seems quite 621 00:42:52.880 --> 00:42:55.079 at the heart of the case. That's only possible because they did publish his 622 00:42:55.159 --> 00:42:59.639 name as the security guard who found Tracy's body. So and like you said, 623 00:42:59.679 --> 00:43:01.199 this guy Sean who had the obsession with the case, he had a 624 00:43:01.239 --> 00:43:05.800 ton of newspaper clippings, so he probably would have read on Barnes his name, 625 00:43:06.119 --> 00:43:07.679 and maybe while he's making the call, he's thinking to myself, Okay, 626 00:43:07.679 --> 00:43:10.800 what name should I use? Don? We'll go with Don. I 627 00:43:10.800 --> 00:43:15.079 think that's a high possibility. What if it was the real killer and they 628 00:43:15.079 --> 00:43:20.800 were trying to use misdirection, knowing that Don was the security guard, trying 629 00:43:20.840 --> 00:43:22.639 to point the finger and be like, hey, over there, over there, 630 00:43:23.239 --> 00:43:25.960 Dawn is my name. Oh yeah, that would make sense as well, 631 00:43:27.039 --> 00:43:30.440 that it's the ultimate misdirection. And it almost seems to have worked because 632 00:43:30.480 --> 00:43:34.159 a lot of online SLUSA pointed out it's the same name as the security guard, 633 00:43:34.239 --> 00:43:37.679 So maybe the security guard was the killer. I just don't think you'd 634 00:43:37.719 --> 00:43:42.320 use your same name, Like he's like, oh, there's lots of Dawns 635 00:43:42.360 --> 00:43:45.119 in the city, so no one's going to know that it's me. Well 636 00:43:45.199 --> 00:43:47.800 hello, Like, it just doesn't seem like a smart bet. You would 637 00:43:47.840 --> 00:43:52.480 just pick another common name like Brad or Bob or Steve or something. You're 638 00:43:52.519 --> 00:43:58.360 not going to choose Dawn. It just feels a little too intentional. So 639 00:43:58.400 --> 00:44:02.920 the Unsolved Mystery segments primary focus was a confession from the caller named Don and 640 00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:07.400 the young man from Walkersville who called himself Sean. But it's possible that this 641 00:44:07.679 --> 00:44:13.519 entire lead was nothing more than a red herring. Don Barnes Junior's name was 642 00:44:13.599 --> 00:44:16.880 not mentioned at all during the segment, as they simply present a re enactment 643 00:44:16.960 --> 00:44:22.800 of a security guard discovering Tracy's body and treat him as a complete afterthought, 644 00:44:22.119 --> 00:44:27.800 so there's no indication that he was ever considered a suspect. But even if 645 00:44:27.800 --> 00:44:31.400 you watch the segment without any knowledge of who Don Barnes Junior is, there 646 00:44:31.480 --> 00:44:37.119 still seems to be something off about the security guard's version of events. The 647 00:44:37.199 --> 00:44:39.960 store but Tracy was working closed at nine pm, and she was last seen 648 00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:45.440 at eight forty five. Yet even though the store's lights never went off, 649 00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:50.000 he did not go inside until around ten forty five PM. If the guard's 650 00:44:50.039 --> 00:44:53.000 job was to patrol the shopping center, it is a bit odd that two 651 00:44:53.039 --> 00:44:58.719 hours would pass before he noticed something was wrong. We may be overthinking things 652 00:44:58.760 --> 00:45:01.920 here, but since there always been a number of rumors surrounding Don Barnes. 653 00:45:02.239 --> 00:45:07.239 We'll revisit this angle later on. Now, is Don only patrolling this area 654 00:45:07.360 --> 00:45:13.480 or was he kind of hired to patrol the like the shopping center or the 655 00:45:13.559 --> 00:45:16.559 vicinity of that neighborhood, like, was it multiple spots he needed a patrol? 656 00:45:16.639 --> 00:45:21.719 Or are we literally saying he sat and watched this store for an hour 657 00:45:21.719 --> 00:45:23.719 and forty five minutes before saying, Hey, I should probably go check on 658 00:45:23.760 --> 00:45:28.119 her. I don't think I've read anything about him patrolling an entire area. 659 00:45:28.159 --> 00:45:30.360 It's just this one shopping center, and it's not like a mall or anything. 660 00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:34.639 It sounds like it's more like a strip mall where a bunch of stores 661 00:45:34.639 --> 00:45:37.679 are out in this parking lot. So if that was his entire job to 662 00:45:37.719 --> 00:45:40.719 patrol just this one area, that, yes, it is pretty odd that 663 00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:45.400 it would take him two hours to circle around and come back to Tracy's shop 664 00:45:45.400 --> 00:45:49.880 and notice the lights are on and go inside. But I've never seen any 665 00:45:49.880 --> 00:45:53.920 confirmation that his responsibilities required him to like drive elsewhere, which could account for 666 00:45:54.000 --> 00:45:59.239 this two hour gap. Do we know how old he was? He would 667 00:45:59.239 --> 00:46:01.719 have been I think in his twenties at that time, and like Servi check 668 00:46:01.800 --> 00:46:06.400 said. He said that the person he believed was the most primary suspect was 669 00:46:06.440 --> 00:46:10.039 in his twenties. So when you see some of the comments that serve check 670 00:46:10.119 --> 00:46:15.639 mate, then Don Barnes Junior being the killer would fit, would fit the 671 00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:21.639 scenario. It's also this is morbid, but it's also possible that if you 672 00:46:21.679 --> 00:46:23.679 waited an hour and forty five minutes, you knew for a fact she was 673 00:46:23.719 --> 00:46:28.440 dead. Like, yes, you stabbed her seven times, but if you 674 00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:31.800 waited and at ten forty five, like, you would know for a fact 675 00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:35.800 she was no longer going to be breathing at that point. And there might 676 00:46:35.800 --> 00:46:38.199 have been an element of panic and wanting to dispose of the murder weapon as 677 00:46:38.199 --> 00:46:42.440 well. Oh yeah, like and it's also been speculated that if he got 678 00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:45.119 blood on his uniform, then he may have needed some time to like clean 679 00:46:45.199 --> 00:46:50.719 himself up or change his clothing or something before he discovered Tracy's body. Then 680 00:46:50.760 --> 00:46:54.000 that time window completely makes sense. My first job was in a mall. 681 00:46:54.239 --> 00:46:57.559 I don't know, Robin, did you have this store? Like? I 682 00:46:57.559 --> 00:47:00.119 don't think they exist anymore, but when I was a teenager, they were 683 00:47:00.159 --> 00:47:05.440 called San Francisco and they sold like gag gifts and stuff like a spencer. 684 00:47:05.599 --> 00:47:08.480 Yes, yeah, like you know, like the like fake fart smelling like 685 00:47:08.559 --> 00:47:13.840 liquid stuff and like woby cushions, like stupid stuff like that. But I 686 00:47:13.880 --> 00:47:17.000 remember when I was sixteen, I would close the store alone, and if 687 00:47:17.079 --> 00:47:22.000 you were the last person there, you would be sticking out like a sore 688 00:47:22.039 --> 00:47:25.360 thumb because everybody else lights would be off, And I would think that even 689 00:47:25.400 --> 00:47:30.320 if you were like a half hour overclosing time, the mall security guard would 690 00:47:30.320 --> 00:47:32.679 have noticed and come to check on you. Like that's just my experience, 691 00:47:32.760 --> 00:47:37.880 but that time frame just seems a bit off to me, unless it's like 692 00:47:37.639 --> 00:47:43.280 the biggest mall ever where they've got, you know, five hundred stores or 693 00:47:43.320 --> 00:47:47.280 something, and so he's walking around on foot and may not get to her 694 00:47:47.960 --> 00:47:52.360 by that time, or maybe took time to have a cigarette and a meal 695 00:47:52.519 --> 00:47:54.719 or something, you know, talk to a friend on his phone. I 696 00:47:54.719 --> 00:47:59.440 don't know. It just seems like a huge amount of time to go if 697 00:47:59.440 --> 00:48:01.760 this was a regular size shopping area. Yeah, and this is Frederick, 698 00:48:01.760 --> 00:48:05.559 Maryland. It's not a particularly large town, so I don't think they're going 699 00:48:05.639 --> 00:48:07.840 to have one of the largest shopping malls ever. So yeah, Yeah, 700 00:48:07.960 --> 00:48:13.599 definitely seems unusual. I was just thinking like West Demonton mall size, you 701 00:48:13.639 --> 00:48:15.159 know, like it used to be like one of the biggest malls in Canada. 702 00:48:15.199 --> 00:48:17.360 I don't know if it is anymore, but I remember going as a 703 00:48:17.400 --> 00:48:22.159 kid and being like totally overwhelmed two sides of the mall, and like it 704 00:48:22.159 --> 00:48:24.519 would take you all day to walk around it. It was like a city 705 00:48:24.679 --> 00:48:29.000 unto itself. Yeah, I've always heard about that mall, but I've never 706 00:48:29.039 --> 00:48:32.360 actually gone there. I nearly died when I was about trapped under a very 707 00:48:32.440 --> 00:48:37.239 large individual in the wave pool and I could not get out, and I 708 00:48:37.239 --> 00:48:39.880 remember when I came out, I was like shaking. I thought I was 709 00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:46.719 going to die. Joel, that's another podcast episode, certainly is so. 710 00:48:46.760 --> 00:48:50.800 I think that about brings an end to Part one. Join us next week 711 00:48:50.840 --> 00:48:54.199 as we present part two of our series on the Unsolved Murder of Tracy Kirkpatrick. 712 00:48:55.239 --> 00:48:58.320 Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit about the Trail 713 00:48:58.320 --> 00:49:01.320 Went Cold Patreon? Yes, the Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three 714 00:49:01.400 --> 00:49:07.760 years now, and we offer the standard bonus features like early ad free episodes, 715 00:49:07.840 --> 00:49:12.000 and I also send out stickers and sign thank you cards to anyone who 716 00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:15.440 signs up with us on Patreon if you join our five dollar tier Tier two. 717 00:49:15.760 --> 00:49:21.559 We also offer monthly bonus episodes in which I talk about cases which are 718 00:49:21.599 --> 00:49:24.719 not featured on The Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to Patreon 719 00:49:25.039 --> 00:49:29.400 and if you join our highest tier tier three, the ten dollar tier. 720 00:49:29.920 --> 00:49:34.880 One of the features we offer is a audio commentary track over classic episodes of 721 00:49:34.960 --> 00:49:38.360 UNSAWD Mysteries, where you can download an audio file and then boot up the 722 00:49:38.360 --> 00:49:44.800 original UNSAWD Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or YouTube and play it with my audio 723 00:49:44.800 --> 00:49:49.039 commentary playing in the background, where I just provide trivia and factoids about the 724 00:49:49.079 --> 00:49:52.480 cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very first episode that I 725 00:49:52.480 --> 00:49:57.760 did a commentary track over was the episode featuring this case. So if you 726 00:49:57.800 --> 00:50:00.719 want to download a commentary track in which I make more smart ass remarks about 727 00:50:00.800 --> 00:50:05.559 Jewel Kaylor than be sure to join Tier three. So I want to let 728 00:50:05.599 --> 00:50:08.079 you know a little bit about the Jewels and Ashley Patreons. So there's early 729 00:50:08.119 --> 00:50:13.000 ad free episodes of The Path Went Chili. We've got our Path Went Chili 730 00:50:13.079 --> 00:50:15.280 minis, which are always over an hour, so they're not very many, 731 00:50:15.400 --> 00:50:19.800 but they're just too short to turn into a series, and we're really enjoying 732 00:50:19.840 --> 00:50:22.320 doing those, so we hope you'll check out those patreons will link them in 733 00:50:22.360 --> 00:50:25.559 the show notes. So I want to thank you all for listening, and 734 00:50:25.639 --> 00:50:30.119 any chance you have to share us on social media with a friend or to 735 00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:32.360 rate and review is greatly appreciate it. You can email us at the path 736 00:50:32.440 --> 00:50:37.159 Went Chili at gmail dot com. You can reach us on Twitter at the 737 00:50:37.199 --> 00:50:40.320 Pathwin. So until next time, be sure to bundle up because cold trails 738 00:50:40.360 --> 00:50:45.559 and chili pass call for warm clothing. Music by Paul Rich from the podcast 739 00:50:45.639 --> 00:50:45.760 Cold Callers Comedy