WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.040 --> 00:00:10.080 Old you is, folks. It's time people paid good money to see this 2 00:00:10.240 --> 00:00:13.519 movie. When they go out to a theater, they want cold sodas, 3 00:00:13.839 --> 00:00:18.559 hot popcorn, and no monsters in the Projection Booth. Everyone for tend Podcasting 4 00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:47.600 Isn't boring Off, Lee Marman, Ernest mort Knight, Robert Bryan, Jimmy 5 00:00:47.679 --> 00:00:55.640 Brown, Charles Bronson, John Cassavetes, Trenny Lopez, Richard Jail, Robert 6 00:00:55.719 --> 00:01:11.000 Webber, Lenz Water, Ralph Dirty Dozen in television Metalward from NGA, Hey, 7 00:01:11.040 --> 00:01:12.840 folks, woking by a very special episode of The Projection Booth. I'm 8 00:01:12.879 --> 00:01:18.000 your host, Mike White. On this episode, we have Dwayne Epstein back 9 00:01:18.159 --> 00:01:23.239 and the Booth. He was on our prime cut episode all those years ago, 10 00:01:23.319 --> 00:01:27.519 episode one ten, and he is back with a new book looking at 11 00:01:27.760 --> 00:01:33.560 the Dirty Dozen. It is called Killing Generals. The Making of the Dirty 12 00:01:33.680 --> 00:01:38.359 Dozen, the most iconic World War Two movie of all times, and let 13 00:01:38.439 --> 00:01:42.480 me tell you that it is a terrific book. Dwayne really puts together a 14 00:01:42.599 --> 00:01:47.599 great story about one of the greatest movies. I don't know if it's the 15 00:01:47.680 --> 00:01:51.400 most iconic World War two movie of all times, but it's definitely up there. 16 00:01:52.000 --> 00:01:53.959 It's one of those books where you sit down and you start to read 17 00:01:55.000 --> 00:01:57.760 it and next thing you know, you are fifty pages in, and next 18 00:01:57.799 --> 00:02:00.200 thing you know, after that, you are are done reading that book, 19 00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:07.319 because it is just a page turner to read all about the background to the 20 00:02:07.400 --> 00:02:12.639 movie and how it was actually put together. It was wonderful, highly recommended, 21 00:02:12.800 --> 00:02:15.840 and I hope you enjoy this interview. Did this come out directly from 22 00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:21.400 your research on Lee Marvin or did you come to this through another avenue both. 23 00:02:21.960 --> 00:02:28.240 The way it happened was Lee Marvin point blank was an unexpected but wonderful 24 00:02:28.280 --> 00:02:32.680 surprise, and its success wells critically and financially. Financially, it made it 25 00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:38.360 to number four in the New York canadastseverals was and critically, it won a 26 00:02:38.439 --> 00:02:43.319 couple of publishing awards, was one of the Independent Book Awards Book of the 27 00:02:43.439 --> 00:02:46.960 Year, It was wonder Forward Magazine's Book of the Year, and it was 28 00:02:47.039 --> 00:02:51.919 up for several other awards. But anyway, what happened was in the interim 29 00:02:52.360 --> 00:02:55.080 after it came out and it was successful. My agent, a wonderful man 30 00:02:55.159 --> 00:03:00.400 by the name of Mike camel Bag. You don't meet a lot of really 31 00:03:00.520 --> 00:03:04.080 decent people in men's life, you meet nice people, good people, schmucks, 32 00:03:04.159 --> 00:03:08.840 bad people. But Mike Hammelberg was a true editalemnch. He really was. 33 00:03:09.479 --> 00:03:14.319 And what what can happened was we were working on another project, but 34 00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:17.360 Mike passed away. A matter of fact, I spoke to him literally the 35 00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:22.360 day before he died. He left a message on my answer machine about the 36 00:03:22.479 --> 00:03:24.439 project we would be working on, and I did a proposal, and he 37 00:03:24.759 --> 00:03:29.960 called me the day before he had a stroke and he never came out of 38 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:32.520 the comma and passed away. And what he said was what you did here 39 00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:36.680 was great. Now the ball is in my park and I got to go 40 00:03:36.759 --> 00:03:39.560 out and push it. And he passed away. So I was devastated. 41 00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:46.639 But in the interim, without having an agent and not having any real connections 42 00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:51.400 in the publishing world, I was a free fall. Now what happened was 43 00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:54.680 the gentleman who published the Marvin's Point Blank was the guy named Tim Shapnell, 44 00:03:55.120 --> 00:04:00.280 who is an open minded publisher, independent publisher in the truest sense of the 45 00:04:00.319 --> 00:04:08.520 words, company Shaffner Press, and eventually he agreed to publish a biography on 46 00:04:08.719 --> 00:04:11.599 Charles Bronson, which was going to be my next project. And in the 47 00:04:11.719 --> 00:04:15.560 interim. I had gathered a whole lot of exclusive information, all kinds of 48 00:04:15.639 --> 00:04:21.120 grids that I interviewed people Bronson went to school with close friends, associates, 49 00:04:23.319 --> 00:04:27.079 co workers, what have you. And Tim liked the idea. So I 50 00:04:27.199 --> 00:04:30.720 was moving forward with that. But then at one point another possibility of a 51 00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:33.040 great project came up. So I asked him, can I take a kind 52 00:04:33.079 --> 00:04:36.480 of sabbatical on the Bronson book, but I work on something else? And 53 00:04:36.800 --> 00:04:41.360 he said okay. And I worked on something else, which I won't go 54 00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:44.240 into because it's still in the work to believe it or not. But once 55 00:04:44.279 --> 00:04:47.480 I had it down, I came back to the Bronson project and talked to 56 00:04:47.560 --> 00:04:50.920 Tim and said, I'm ready to come back to work on the book. 57 00:04:51.079 --> 00:04:55.000 And Tim said, this has done to an email. Tim said, you're 58 00:04:55.000 --> 00:04:57.759 gonna have to call him. You have to talk. So I called him 59 00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:00.920 and what he said to me was, I've been thinking about it when at 60 00:05:00.959 --> 00:05:03.959 the time took off, and I want to move my company into another direction. 61 00:05:04.360 --> 00:05:09.079 So what we can do is this, you keep the advance, I'm 62 00:05:09.160 --> 00:05:12.839 canceling the contract. Yeah, So once again I was back in free fall. 63 00:05:13.240 --> 00:05:17.680 This was about twenty seventeen twenty eighteen, and I wanted up having to 64 00:05:17.720 --> 00:05:21.680 take a day job to pay my bills. You do what you can in 65 00:05:21.800 --> 00:05:26.839 the And then an interesting thing happened. There's a gentleman by the name of 66 00:05:26.959 --> 00:05:32.879 Lee Sobel who is a literary agent who specializes in nonfiction, specifically retro pop 67 00:05:32.920 --> 00:05:38.720 culture, which as if this guy was made for me. And he contacted 68 00:05:38.759 --> 00:05:41.839 me, which is really weird. He contacted me and said, I originally 69 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:44.879 Marvel. What can I like it a lot? Do you need an agent? 70 00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:50.519 And I thought, agents don't do that. Writers seek out agents don't 71 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:55.319 necessarily seek out planet generally speaking. And I told him that, and he 72 00:05:55.439 --> 00:05:59.480 said, why are writers so cynical? An agent can do what I'm doing? 73 00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:00.360 And I thought, I can. Agian is doing what you're doing. 74 00:06:00.680 --> 00:06:04.120 There's something not quite on the up and up here. It seemed like a 75 00:06:04.240 --> 00:06:08.800 hustle. So I lift them up. I checked them out from ten ways 76 00:06:08.839 --> 00:06:11.079 to Sunday. And then I got back to him. When I said, 77 00:06:11.079 --> 00:06:14.279 all right, you know what I need an agent? My agent passed away 78 00:06:14.879 --> 00:06:17.600 and he knew my AP two. By the way, my Camilo, that's 79 00:06:17.600 --> 00:06:20.879 how great Hamilburg rudge, And he said, okay, what you got in 80 00:06:21.000 --> 00:06:24.959 mind. So I told him a couple of the ideas that I First off, 81 00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:27.560 I said, how about a bio on Charles Bronson? And he went, 82 00:06:27.680 --> 00:06:30.480 no way, And I said why, and he goes, One reason 83 00:06:30.680 --> 00:06:35.000 is that most of the publishers I deal with aren't interested in celebrity biographies. 84 00:06:35.079 --> 00:06:40.600 You're interested more in books about a specific film. If you want to do 85 00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:43.720 a bio on Bronson, you've got a contact a university press, and they 86 00:06:43.720 --> 00:06:46.240 don't pay very well. But that I knew anyway. So then we started 87 00:06:46.279 --> 00:06:50.040 talking about possible movie ideas, and he said books about movie. The first 88 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:54.560 one he said was point blank, and I said, I liked that movie. 89 00:06:54.560 --> 00:06:57.199 It's a good movie, but certainly not a favorite compared to some of 90 00:06:57.240 --> 00:07:00.279 the other film Billie Marvin made. And the very next thing I said was 91 00:07:00.680 --> 00:07:02.720 what about a book on the dirty doesn't And he said, yeah, I 92 00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:06.040 don't know. I don't I don't know. And then he said he got 93 00:07:06.120 --> 00:07:08.959 back to me a couple of days later and he said, you know what, 94 00:07:09.480 --> 00:07:12.120 he actually said this to me, I'm a fool. I don't know 95 00:07:12.199 --> 00:07:14.759 what I'm talking about. Apparently, a book on the dirty doesn't like just 96 00:07:14.959 --> 00:07:18.160 work you think you can get a proposal to me, Yeah, I'm gonna 97 00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:20.680 work on it, and so I did. Now, this is the amazing 98 00:07:20.800 --> 00:07:25.480 part, actually part of the whole thing sound amazing so far. But he 99 00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:29.680 says to me, get me a proposal and I'll shop it around. And 100 00:07:29.879 --> 00:07:34.560 I did. Now, while he was shopping it around, my landlord decided 101 00:07:34.600 --> 00:07:41.399 to fumigate our building because we had a problem with termites. Next timing right, 102 00:07:41.720 --> 00:07:45.040 So I was out of the apartment for three to four days, and 103 00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:50.680 we had been contacting each other and usually through video place or my phone. 104 00:07:51.079 --> 00:07:55.079 But while I was out of the apartment, I wasn't able to check my 105 00:07:55.199 --> 00:07:57.680 email. Then I went to the library my girlfriend. I went to the 106 00:07:57.759 --> 00:08:01.879 library so I can plug in and check my email, and I got four 107 00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:05.920 messages from him, the last one going where are that? F are you 108 00:08:05.399 --> 00:08:11.040 in capital letters? So I answered, and what I got was a response 109 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:16.720 that said and I looked at the previous messages too, and the previous messages 110 00:08:16.759 --> 00:08:20.439 were like, they're offering this much, they're offering that much. And then 111 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:22.399 by the last one where he went where they yep are you? They had 112 00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:26.480 gone their limit. They wouldn't go any higher. So it was a good 113 00:08:26.519 --> 00:08:28.600 thing. I was at home because he asked me, I need you to 114 00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:31.919 tell me yesterday do we take this deal or not? And I went leave 115 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:35.159 take the deal, and then he got back to me two seconds later when 116 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:41.399 he said, we're on and I'm in the library, a library, and 117 00:08:41.519 --> 00:08:43.639 I'm hooting and hollering and everybody's staring at you. It's like a scene right 118 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:46.799 out of a movie. So that's how the Brook Killing Generals came to be. 119 00:08:48.399 --> 00:08:50.679 When was the first time you saw that? Dirty doesn't know? What 120 00:08:50.759 --> 00:08:54.279 did you think? I'm old enough to. I'm not old enough to. 121 00:08:54.759 --> 00:08:58.919 Actually I was, but I didn't. I was about six or seven when 122 00:08:58.960 --> 00:09:01.600 it came out. The first time I saw it was on television. When 123 00:09:01.679 --> 00:09:05.159 it first aired on TV. I don't know if you remember this or not. 124 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:07.080 I don't even know how old you are. When they first aired it. 125 00:09:07.399 --> 00:09:11.799 They used to air it in two parts, CBS Thursday Night Movie and 126 00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:15.399 CBS Friday Night. And even when I watch it now, I can remember 127 00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:20.039 vividly when both parts started and ended. And then years later I got to 128 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:24.679 see it in an repertory theater here in la and back in the eighties and 129 00:09:24.759 --> 00:09:26.720 nineties, used to be a lot of it before I used to go to 130 00:09:26.759 --> 00:09:30.559 those theories once or twice a week, and I think it was up to 131 00:09:30.639 --> 00:09:33.960 New Beverley where they showed it and show in the big screen. As much 132 00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:37.120 as I remembered and loved the movie, it blows your way on the big 133 00:09:37.159 --> 00:09:41.279 screen. You were overwhelmed by it. And that's when I first saw it, 134 00:09:41.320 --> 00:09:43.080 and I'm watching it ever since. And by the way, even if 135 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:48.399 you don't want to see it, it's kind of inevitable if you're watching TCM 136 00:09:48.879 --> 00:09:52.240 on any given night, because I guess it was and it is. When 137 00:09:52.279 --> 00:09:54.200 it ted Turner's favorite films, it doesn't have gone with the win because they 138 00:09:54.279 --> 00:09:58.960 show it constantly, and I think that's a good thing. I really do 139 00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:03.039 watching every time as Yeah, it's funny. As we're recording this, it's 140 00:10:03.639 --> 00:10:09.279 just a few days after D Day. It's week after Memorial Day, and 141 00:10:09.799 --> 00:10:13.200 they were playing World War Two movies all day on Memorial Day on TCM, 142 00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:16.600 and right there smack in the middles the Dirty, doesn't you bet you. 143 00:10:18.000 --> 00:10:22.399 I knew they would even before I saw the list, and because I'm signed 144 00:10:22.440 --> 00:10:24.960 up to their emailing list. Once I saw they were going to do it 145 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:26.519 the Memorial Day. At the time, I was like, all right, 146 00:10:26.519 --> 00:10:30.279 where's the dirty Yeah, they gotta have it. And I saw it. 147 00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:35.679 It was on Monday, ten thirty in the morning on the Pacific standard time, 148 00:10:35.799 --> 00:10:37.840 and so it was in the middle of the afternoon back Eave. So 149 00:10:39.360 --> 00:10:41.320 to my mind, other than primetime, it was a perfect time to show 150 00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:46.919 it. Oh yeah. And I was sitting there watching at the entire right 151 00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:52.159 on. It's got some of the best stuff, especially the best bringing together 152 00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:58.039 of the team and exploring that dynamic, and then the whole thing of Lee 153 00:10:58.159 --> 00:11:05.120 Mervin breaking them down, putting them back together. That magical moment where John 154 00:11:05.200 --> 00:11:09.559 Casavetti's refuses to shave, that really just brings the whole team together. It's 155 00:11:09.639 --> 00:11:13.720 magical, boy. I love that, Franco. It's one thing. It 156 00:11:13.919 --> 00:11:18.559 was such an influential movie. At the time it came out. MGM was 157 00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:20.720 hoping it would be successful. They had no idea it would be as successful 158 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:24.799 as it was. It was the number one box office hit in the country 159 00:11:24.279 --> 00:11:28.879 of the year was released, and it was a pretty seminal year in terms 160 00:11:28.919 --> 00:11:31.799 of great films. There was a sea change in American filmmaking. In the 161 00:11:31.879 --> 00:11:35.240 heat of the night, cool Hen Luke to graduate Bonnie and Clyde all came 162 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:41.919 out the same year. And what's interesting is the influence of that film exists 163 00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:43.399 to this day, by the way, which I won't go in through anything 164 00:11:43.480 --> 00:11:50.840 moment, but what I find interesting is anything that's ever either either in homage 165 00:11:50.360 --> 00:11:54.919 to The Dirty Dozen or sometimes an out mount rip off, they all seem 166 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:58.519 to miss one important factor, which is the main thing that made the film 167 00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:01.519 successful. Have been warm movies before, there have been warm movies since. 168 00:12:01.559 --> 00:12:05.799 There certainly was warm movies during the time The Dirty doesn't came out. But 169 00:12:05.960 --> 00:12:09.440 what made The Dirty doesn't stand out? It was not necessarily at the premise, 170 00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:15.639 but it was so character driven, really character driven. Even the smallest 171 00:12:15.799 --> 00:12:20.759 role practically had an important backstory, and we knew who these people were. 172 00:12:22.279 --> 00:12:26.759 And they forgot that over time. That they even made a couple of TV 173 00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:30.000 movie sequels, and they made that mistake. They thought it was more about 174 00:12:30.039 --> 00:12:35.399 the outrageousness of a plot, like in the first TV movie sequel, they 175 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:39.159 tried to save Hitler's life because it would prolong the war too long. Hitler 176 00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:43.840 was killed. This is stupid, I'm sorry, and other examples like that. 177 00:12:45.399 --> 00:12:48.519 But The Dirty doesn't even the minor characters, the one they called the 178 00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:54.519 Bottom six, even they had moments. And the other thing about the film 179 00:12:54.600 --> 00:12:58.720 that I loved was the effect it had on every single person's career. Everybody 180 00:13:00.279 --> 00:13:03.399 from director Robert Aldridge and producer Ken Hyman, whom my interview by the way, 181 00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:07.440 he's still alive, to meeting man Lee Marvin, all the way down 182 00:13:07.519 --> 00:13:13.399 the cast list. Everybody's career either exploded or was launched by and there is 183 00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:18.799 a difference by The Dirty Dozen, and I can give you example after example. 184 00:13:18.879 --> 00:13:22.320 It was amazing the effect it had on everybody's career. There's the whole 185 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:26.600 just the Dirty Dozen themselves, along with of course Lee Mervin, but then 186 00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:33.360 all the other people around them, like Ernest Borgnine and George Kennedy distellar cast 187 00:13:33.559 --> 00:13:39.000 all the way through. George Kennedy never really had a leading role until after 188 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:43.799 The Dirty Dozen, and rather ironically, John Cassavettis was the only member of 189 00:13:43.879 --> 00:13:48.679 the cast who got an OSCAR nomination for Best Supporting Actor Kennedy book rather ironic, 190 00:13:50.679 --> 00:13:54.440 but once The Dirty Dozen came out, George Kennedy started playing leads in 191 00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:58.639 character leads, but leads casser Vettis didn't want to do The Dirty Dozen. 192 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:05.120 But he talked into it by Ken Hyman and really not only resurrected his career 193 00:14:05.399 --> 00:14:09.600 John Cassavettis, it saved his career for a reasoning that I go into in 194 00:14:09.679 --> 00:14:13.960 the book. Cassavettis was basically blacklisted because of a series of events that took 195 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:16.159 place for another film he had made, and as he put it, he 196 00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:20.320 couldn't get into a Looney Tunes cartoon if you wanted to. Ken Hyman approached 197 00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:24.240 him. Cassavetties reluctantly agreed because Ken Hyman said, look, I know you're 198 00:14:24.279 --> 00:14:28.399 working on a movie of your own, and you run out of money. 199 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:31.559 Make The Dirty Dozen and you could use that money to finish your film. 200 00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:35.679 And that's how we talked him into it, the movie Cassavetties was working on 201 00:14:35.879 --> 00:14:41.039 with Faces, and he did, and the end result was John Cassavetties became 202 00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:46.399 the father of American independent filmmakers because from there after Faces, his career as 203 00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:50.840 a filmmaker took off, and it started a process he did for the rest 204 00:14:50.879 --> 00:14:54.120 of his life. He would do a movie for the money and use the 205 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:56.919 money to make the movie he wanted to make, which is what a lot 206 00:14:56.960 --> 00:15:01.000 of filmmakers do now. He was the first. He made Rosemary's Baby after 207 00:15:01.399 --> 00:15:05.039 The Dirty Dozen, and he hated it because you couldn't stand working at roll 208 00:15:05.080 --> 00:15:07.440 with Laski, which is the opposite of working with Robert Aldrin. He loved 209 00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:11.399 working with Audrey. And here's another example. Robert Audrey is the king of 210 00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:16.279 the Maverick filmmakers. And there was this rumor that existed for a long time 211 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:20.080 that the reason why he didn't get a Best Director nomination for The Dirty Dozen 212 00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:22.360 was because he didn't want to change the end of the film, that ultra 213 00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:26.559 violent explosion of the Chateau. I asked Ken Hyman if that was true, 214 00:15:26.559 --> 00:15:30.759 and he said, absolutely not. It's just not true. He told me 215 00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:35.120 that Altre didn't get a nomination because he didn't like the Hollywood establishment, and 216 00:15:35.159 --> 00:15:39.120 the Hollywood establishment didn't like him. No matter how successful his films were, 217 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:43.039 he never got a nomination for whatever happened to Baby Jane or Frush Sweet Charlotte, 218 00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:48.399 or Kiss Me Deadly or Fly to the Phoenix The Longest Yard. I 219 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:52.639 think I had a great career, but he didn't like Hollywood and he was 220 00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:58.480 filmmaking. And he famously said at one point about not getting nominated for The 221 00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:00.440 Dirty doesn't. He said, look, if I made a biblical epic, 222 00:16:00.519 --> 00:16:03.600 I wouldn't get nominated, which is an interesting thing for him to say, 223 00:16:03.639 --> 00:16:07.679 because he didn't want to make a biblical ethic. It was Solomon Gomorra. 224 00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:14.440 Now, after The Dirty Dozen came, it was so successful, he had 225 00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:17.799 already had his own production company, and to show you what a liberal he 226 00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:22.000 was, the company was called Associates and Alternate. He put the people who 227 00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:26.679 worked for him ahead of himself, and the money he got allowed him to 228 00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:30.240 do something he had always wanted to do. He bought his own studio. 229 00:16:30.759 --> 00:16:33.600 He had his own production company, but just allowed him to buy a studio 230 00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:37.600 where he can film on site. Now, ultimately the studio really didn't work 231 00:16:37.639 --> 00:16:41.559 out, but that's another story. For Ken Hyman, who produced The Dirty 232 00:16:41.639 --> 00:16:47.840 Dozen, it was so successful it allowed him to become the head of Warner 233 00:16:47.879 --> 00:16:51.879 Brothers Seven Arts. He became the CEO. And it was because of him 234 00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:55.360 being the head of Warner By the seven Arts, we got films like a 235 00:16:55.440 --> 00:17:02.320 Wild Bunch, We got Paul Newman directing debut Rachel, the launch of Paul 236 00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:07.160 Mazerski's film directing career. The tentacle effect that The Dirty Doesn't had on people's 237 00:17:07.240 --> 00:17:11.880 careers fascinating to me. Launched Jim Brown's career launched on A Sutherland's career. 238 00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:17.599 Made Charles Bronson a superstar because he stayed in Europe after the movie was over 239 00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:21.400 and then went on to make some of the best Bureau of Crime and Western's 240 00:17:21.480 --> 00:17:23.839 ever made by anybody, And by the time he came back to the state, 241 00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:27.200 he was a superstar. Like I said, it had this wonderful ripple 242 00:17:27.240 --> 00:17:32.359 effect for everyone. Now, I know, obviously you've done a lot of 243 00:17:32.440 --> 00:17:36.680 research on Bronson. You obviously had done a lot of research and Lee Mervin, 244 00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:41.559 how else are you approaching this? Tell me your methodology of actually doing 245 00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:45.200 the research for this project. The main thing I did was approach it as 246 00:17:45.240 --> 00:17:48.839 best as I could, because there's information out there that's all over the place, 247 00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:55.279 and so I had to get what I could chronologically. And I was 248 00:17:55.400 --> 00:18:00.759 extremely lucky in that a friend of mine who's also a fiction writer film history. 249 00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:04.599 Her name is Beverly Gray. She did a wonderful bio on Ron Howard 250 00:18:06.119 --> 00:18:07.519 used to work for Roger Corman, and she wrote a book about that. 251 00:18:08.039 --> 00:18:14.519 But she also wrote a book called Seduced by Missus Robinson the effect the graduate 252 00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:18.400 had on a generation, and I used that book as a kind of a 253 00:18:18.519 --> 00:18:22.160 template about how to write the dirty doesn't. And ultimately, because we're friends, 254 00:18:22.839 --> 00:18:26.559 I had told Beverly what I was working on and she said to me, 255 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:30.119 oh, really, that sounds like a great subject. By the way, 256 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:33.799 did you know I did an interview with the author of the novel, 257 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:37.920 E. M. Nathanson. Now Nathanson died in twenty sixteen, okay, 258 00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:42.440 so whatever I could find on him was peace meal. And I said, 259 00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:45.599 did you get this interview published? And she said, no, it never 260 00:18:45.720 --> 00:18:48.759 came to pass. Would you like it? And I went, Beverly, 261 00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:53.119 I think I love you. So she did, and it round up becoming 262 00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:57.839 the best jumping off point you can imagine, because he talked so candidly to 263 00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:04.400 her for seven hours that it gave me the entire genesis of the project. 264 00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:08.920 And he went on and all the way up to projects he was working on 265 00:19:10.039 --> 00:19:12.799 shortly before he passed. So that was the best jumping off point I could 266 00:19:12.839 --> 00:19:17.799 get. It put me in the direction of where to go with anything and 267 00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:22.319 everything else. And the way the novel came about is one of my favorite 268 00:19:22.359 --> 00:19:26.119 stories, believe it or not. It involved, of all people, the 269 00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:32.039 king of sexploitation, Rush Meyer, which just amazed me, and it was 270 00:19:32.119 --> 00:19:34.039 incredible. You know, he was often called the King of the leader. 271 00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:41.400 R russ Meyer was friends with Mick Nathanson. That's what friends and family called 272 00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:44.319 it. Mick. He hated the name Irwin and who could blame him? 273 00:19:44.720 --> 00:19:45.839 A matter of fact, at one point he even tried to legally change his 274 00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:49.279 name. But I don't remember why. It didn't happen to any event when 275 00:19:51.559 --> 00:19:52.839 I think, I'm not positive, but I think they might have known each 276 00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:56.519 other in the service just slightly. You know, Nathanson was living in New 277 00:19:56.559 --> 00:20:00.400 York. He decided to move to LA and when he moved to LA, 278 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:04.440 he looked up russ Meyer, and Nathanson's son told me that Meyer and his 279 00:20:04.519 --> 00:20:10.559 wife at the time would come over to their house and put gin and cocktail 280 00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:14.839 whatever. And at one point during a conversation, Nathanson was working on a 281 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:22.839 project involving the Navy and some scandal involving some officers who had done something illegal 282 00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:27.160 whatever. And when he told that to russ Meyer, Meyer said, interesting, 283 00:20:27.640 --> 00:20:33.119 reminds me of the dirty doesn't. And Nathanson said, when he told 284 00:20:33.160 --> 00:20:36.359 me that and the story surrounding it, he goes, the hackles on the 285 00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:37.880 back of my next stood up, which is why I named that chapter that, 286 00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:42.559 and russ Meyer proceeded to tell him about the Dirty Doesn't. The story 287 00:20:42.680 --> 00:20:48.960 goes when russ Meyer was in the service, he was a combat photographer in 288 00:20:48.039 --> 00:20:52.880 a unit under patent of all People, and he was assigned to go to 289 00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:59.519 a military prison and photograph these gentlemen who had decided that they were calling themselves 290 00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:03.720 or the guards had called them the Dirty Dozen, and they were being trained 291 00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:08.400 for a mission overseas behind enemy lines. And rush Meyer took their photos, 292 00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:14.640 shot some film live action action, but yeah, film, and turned it 293 00:21:14.759 --> 00:21:18.200 in to his superiors. And he came back about a month later, curious 294 00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:22.160 to find out where they weren't what happened to because they weren't there anymore, 295 00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:25.519 And the commanding officers said, oh, they went on the mission and they 296 00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:29.079 were all killed. And then rush Meyer decided, that's the case. I 297 00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:32.039 got to find out what happened in my film. So he did a kind 298 00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:34.400 of a trail to find out what happened or that film, and everywhere he 299 00:21:34.519 --> 00:21:41.559 went he was either stonewall or sent somewhere else and told that we don't know 300 00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:45.599 where that is. So he took that story to Nathanson, and Nathan decided, 301 00:21:45.880 --> 00:21:48.440 whatever I'm working on now, Because he was a professional writer, he 302 00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:52.680 worked for some newspapers and magazine and he goes, whatever I'm working on now, 303 00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:56.480 I'm dropping it and I'm going to focus on the Dirty Dozen. He 304 00:21:56.559 --> 00:22:02.000 spent the next two years looking to find what rush Meyer had done. And 305 00:22:02.279 --> 00:22:08.880 he had access to the Pentagon Archives, the National Archives, the Quantico Archives 306 00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:14.119 in Virginia, military assignments to what have you. And he went two years 307 00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:18.599 searching for all this and came up with nothing. There was no record of 308 00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:22.079 anyone. Now, even when it comes to top secret information, it means 309 00:22:22.119 --> 00:22:26.039 that exists. And he had top secret clearance, and he never found anything. 310 00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:30.720 We know about classified and he classified stuff now because they're the former president 311 00:22:32.039 --> 00:22:33.440 and he would have been able to access it, but he never found anything. 312 00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:37.599 So ultimately, but what he did do was in the research he was 313 00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:44.279 doing, he discovered the transcripts of many military trials and he found out how 314 00:22:44.359 --> 00:22:47.400 these trials went, what has been were convicted for, how they attempted to 315 00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:52.279 defend themselves, and he went through the psychiatric record of these men with the 316 00:22:52.359 --> 00:22:56.799 help of another friend of his who was a military psychiatrist, who gave him 317 00:22:56.920 --> 00:23:00.759 the records and the transcripts to go through to make notes, and so consequently, 318 00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:03.640 at some point he decided, you know what, I'm going to write 319 00:23:03.640 --> 00:23:07.640 a work of fiction. I'm going to base it on some factual events I'm 320 00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:11.119 aware of, but otherwise this is a complete work of fiction. And I 321 00:23:11.359 --> 00:23:15.960 discovered where he got some of what he got. It's fascinating. One of 322 00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:21.039 my favorite things about what he wrote was in the book, the character of 323 00:23:21.160 --> 00:23:25.559 Maggot is one of the more interesting characters in the film. In the book, 324 00:23:25.640 --> 00:23:30.680 he's actually three different characters. There's a character who is a Southern bigot 325 00:23:30.279 --> 00:23:37.400 racist, there's a character who is a sexual psychopath, and there is a 326 00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:41.319 character who's a religious fanatic. Three different characters. When they wrote the screenplay 327 00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:47.759 by Nunnie Johnson and Lay, it was revised by Lucas Heller. They decided 328 00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:51.720 to make it one guy. And what amazed me was when you watched the 329 00:23:51.799 --> 00:23:56.200 movie, you'd never know it. Telly Savalas plays that guy so believably that 330 00:23:56.359 --> 00:24:02.680 you can believe the sex perbet, racist religious pig is all one guy. 331 00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:08.519 So strange. It's interesting too. Mathanson told Beverley where the character of Maggot, 332 00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:14.680 because Maggot in the book is just a murderous bigot, And it was 333 00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:18.119 based on a real person. And they actually made a movie about this incident. 334 00:24:18.599 --> 00:24:23.279 There was a town. It was called Phoenix City, either Alabama or 335 00:24:23.400 --> 00:24:29.640 Arkansas, and it was near a military installation fort somewhere and I don't know. 336 00:24:30.039 --> 00:24:34.519 And it was a wild West, scandalous written, lawless town, prostitution, 337 00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:40.440 gambling, murder. In fact, the da who was hired to clean 338 00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:44.440 up the town and was elected shortly before he took off as he was murdered. 339 00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:47.440 And they made a movie out of it, and it was called Phoenix 340 00:24:47.480 --> 00:24:51.359 City Story. And it's a great movie because it just pops. It was 341 00:24:51.400 --> 00:24:55.480 me in the fifty but it goes like this. And the character John Larch, 342 00:24:55.880 --> 00:24:59.359 great character actor, the character he played in the movie, he was 343 00:24:59.400 --> 00:25:03.559 the basis for Maggott. He was a torpedo for one of the gambling bosses 344 00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:08.279 and anybody who didn't fall in line, John Lark's character took care of him. 345 00:25:08.599 --> 00:25:12.160 So that's how it was based on the fact interesting stuff. I think 346 00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:18.039 Valas is just oh another just stellar performance. One of my favorite things about 347 00:25:18.119 --> 00:25:22.039 him in that movie. Jim Brown wrote his autobiography. When they went to 348 00:25:22.119 --> 00:25:25.920 the screening of the film and after tell Us of Villas is bumped off by 349 00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:29.799 Jim Brown, he was sitting next to Jim Brown and tell Us elbowed him 350 00:25:29.799 --> 00:25:32.960 and went, I'm out of the movies over and he got up and walked 351 00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:37.599 out. Isn't that great? Another man had a famous ego? But that 352 00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:42.039 that, to me is amazing. He missed the conclusion of the climat but 353 00:25:42.200 --> 00:25:47.400 you probably did because he wasn't there for that. So anyway, I thought 354 00:25:47.400 --> 00:25:52.599 it was pretty cool that interview with the author almost false to your laugh. 355 00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:56.759 Amazing you get to talk with at least one of the producers. Who else 356 00:25:56.799 --> 00:26:00.319 did you talk with for the book? Oh got lucky. The film was 357 00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:04.039 made over fifty years ago, so there weren't a whole lot of interviews I 358 00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:08.279 could have done. I did get to interview Donald Sutherland were still with us. 359 00:26:08.759 --> 00:26:12.039 Oh wow, you managed to make it past this person. Huh. 360 00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:18.559 I sent her my resume and my bio and she said, I'll have to 361 00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:22.400 let mister Sutherland know, and I don't know when I'll go back to me. 362 00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:26.160 I don't think he'll be interested in this ultimately, I guess. When 363 00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:29.799 she did talk to Sutherland, surprised her. She said, to me, 364 00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:33.119 believe it or not, mister Sutherland will indeed be interested. However, he 365 00:26:33.240 --> 00:26:37.519 cannot talk to you directly. I don't know if he couldn't or she wouldn't 366 00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:40.880 let him. She said, you submit me some questions and I'll send it 367 00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:42.079 to him. I'll send it down to him, which is what I did, 368 00:26:42.559 --> 00:26:45.839 and he allowed me one follow up questions. I wanted to do more, 369 00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:48.599 but no, he's done it not And then when the book came out, 370 00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:52.599 I contacted her and said, would you allow me to send a copy 371 00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:56.519 of the book to Donald Sutherland? And she went, yes, send it 372 00:26:56.599 --> 00:26:59.359 to me and I'll send it to him, and that's exactly what I did. 373 00:26:59.720 --> 00:27:03.400 So that worked out. Now, when you asked me about who else 374 00:27:03.640 --> 00:27:07.039 I was able to talk to, one of the things I wounded up doing 375 00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:11.559 was when I worked on Lee Marvin point Blank, there were still some coworkers 376 00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:14.920 that were still alive at the time that I was able to talk to, 377 00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:18.640 and naturally in Lee Marvin point Blank. I wrote about The Dirty Dozen, 378 00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:22.039 and one of the people I spoke to was Point Walker at the time. 379 00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:27.319 Another wound up being, as you probably are made aware of when you read 380 00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:32.319 the book, a gentleman who told me some of the best anecdotes. The 381 00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:37.240 guy named Bob Phillips now or Robert Phillips in his credit. I got to 382 00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:38.720 call him Bob because he liked me and I liked him. But what wound 383 00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:42.680 up happening was I met him to talk about Lee Marker, and he worked 384 00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:45.720 with Lee on several films. Dirty Doesn't, but he worked with him on 385 00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:48.200 The Dirty Does. In the March, we went to lunch. We wounded 386 00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:51.880 up finishing lunch, going out into the parking lot and talking for another couple 387 00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:56.599 of hours. What happened was I was with him about twenty minutes and he's 388 00:27:56.599 --> 00:27:59.920 telling me some stories, and twenty minutes into it, Bob says to me, 389 00:28:00.599 --> 00:28:03.359 you know there were two bad guys in that movie The Dirty Dushan said, 390 00:28:03.640 --> 00:28:08.319 yeah, Robert Ryan as Colonel Everett Dasher Breed. But who was the 391 00:28:08.359 --> 00:28:11.599 other one? And then he looked at me and he smiled, and he 392 00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:15.920 goes, do I look familiar? And I didn't know who he was, 393 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:18.039 and I went, oh, you were a corporate margin, weren't you. 394 00:28:18.119 --> 00:28:21.799 And they didn't like that. And then he got a big grin and he 395 00:28:21.880 --> 00:28:23.720 said, yeah, I considered myself the other heavy in the film. And 396 00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:29.759 from there the stories took off and he was a fascinating man. He left 397 00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:33.240 us, I think it was in nineteen ninety nine or two thousand, but 398 00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:37.960 what a resume he had. He was from football, a pro football player. 399 00:28:38.359 --> 00:28:41.240 He was a self defense instructor in the Marine during World War Two. 400 00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:48.799 He was Adonie Stevenson's personal bodyguard. He was an LA police detective whose main 401 00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:53.599 source of information was Johnny Stampanado, which she loved that name, the guy 402 00:28:53.640 --> 00:28:57.039 who was stabbed at that by Lanta Turner's daughter, and all kinds of great 403 00:28:57.279 --> 00:29:03.480 background. And when he got the role in The Dirty Dozen to play Corporate 404 00:29:03.559 --> 00:29:07.279 Morgan, the script he had read. Morgan was a bigger part. He 405 00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:08.480 was on screen, but he's still on screen a lot because he's in the 406 00:29:08.519 --> 00:29:12.200 background, but he doesn't have a whole lot of dialogue, and that really 407 00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:15.039 pissed him off. But he was going to do the movie anyway, and 408 00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:19.599 consequently he ended up making a little bit more money, because as the way 409 00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:25.319 Ken Hyman said it to me was that Bob Phillips served a dual purpose. 410 00:29:25.880 --> 00:29:30.559 He was the character of Corporate Morgan, and he was also Lee Marvin's bodyguard. 411 00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:33.599 Now, that was the term that Ken Hyman leaves. When I talked 412 00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:37.920 to Bob Phillips, he said, bodyguard my ass. I was Lee Marvin's 413 00:29:37.960 --> 00:29:40.880 babysitter. I was the guy who had to make sure he showed up the 414 00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:45.640 work every day and showed up sober. Now, a couple of the stories 415 00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:49.039 he told me went into Lee Marvin point plank. The overwhelming majority of stuff 416 00:29:49.079 --> 00:29:55.079 he told me didn't, but they went into killing generals. And matter of 417 00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:59.880 fact, one of my favorite quotes of his was something he said to Army 418 00:30:00.119 --> 00:30:03.319 Archer while the film is in production that I wound up using at the chapter 419 00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:07.200 title. It was Bob Phillips saying, I guess he was pissed off his 420 00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:11.920 role was cut back. He wrote that Charles Bronson has more lines on his 421 00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:18.319 face than I have in this movie. So I love that when Bronson confronted 422 00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:21.559 him, and when did you really say that? In Bob Phillips, Army 423 00:30:21.640 --> 00:30:26.519 Archer made that up. You know, the stories he told me having to 424 00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:32.079 be leave babysitter. Most of them are hysterical, some of them are tragic 425 00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:37.000 and pointed. And the thing is hecaused his character didn't go on the mission. 426 00:30:37.480 --> 00:30:40.839 At the end of the film, Richard Jacob does boss Head MP, 427 00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:45.839 but because Bob Phillips didn't go on the mission, his time in the movie 428 00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:48.119 was done and he went back to Hollywood. The movie wasn't quite done, 429 00:30:48.440 --> 00:30:52.519 and that meant Lee Marvin didn't have a babysitter, which also meant when they 430 00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:56.799 were shooting the end of the movie, Bronson was quite anxious to get back 431 00:30:56.839 --> 00:31:02.400 to Hollywood so he can marry his fiance, Joely Iray. They weren't married 432 00:31:02.440 --> 00:31:07.759 there and the last day of filming and once Aldred said cut, Bronson was 433 00:31:07.799 --> 00:31:11.920 going to be on a plane back to la What happened was they were waiting 434 00:31:11.960 --> 00:31:14.720 for League. They were waiting for Lee, and they were waiting for Lee, 435 00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:18.599 No Lee Marvin to be found. Ronson was getting beyond pistol ken. 436 00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:21.839 Hyman told me, I had a pretty good idea of where Lee was, 437 00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:25.880 so he goes. I jumped in my limo, drove to this bar called 438 00:31:25.960 --> 00:31:29.920 the Oh. It had a really Olgravia or something like that, and it 439 00:31:30.039 --> 00:31:33.599 was in London because the movie was shot on the outfits and limbo, and 440 00:31:34.400 --> 00:31:38.559 it was very famous because apparently that's where the English Great Train Robbery had been 441 00:31:38.599 --> 00:31:42.160 planned, was in this pub, so it had a reputation. Hyman said, 442 00:31:42.200 --> 00:31:47.079 when I got there, Lee was on the floor happily singing to himself, 443 00:31:47.480 --> 00:31:51.279 which of course meant he was blato, so he goes. I picked 444 00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:56.079 him up, poured him into the limo and started shoveling coffee down a stroke 445 00:31:56.440 --> 00:32:00.720 and then the time it took back to get back to location, and Lee 446 00:32:00.799 --> 00:32:02.680 began sobering up. But when he got when he fell out of the limo, 447 00:32:04.200 --> 00:32:07.119 Ken Hymen said, Charlie took one look at him and went, Lee, 448 00:32:07.160 --> 00:32:09.839 I'm gonna fucking kill you. And Marvin was all smiles and with Charlie, 449 00:32:09.920 --> 00:32:14.759 what's the problem. And then Ronson started to move on Marvin and Ken 450 00:32:14.920 --> 00:32:17.319 Hyman got between them and said, please, Charlie, don't hit him in 451 00:32:17.359 --> 00:32:22.200 the face. We got to do close ups on him yet, so eventually 452 00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:27.200 Ronson simmered down and they got the shot. And what's interesting is the sequence, 453 00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:30.279 and I think if you watch the movie the sequence they were waiting to 454 00:32:30.359 --> 00:32:35.359 shoot was having that half track go over the other drumming car and over the 455 00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:37.920 bridge. Okay, if you watch that scene close, watch Marvin try to 456 00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:43.720 shift. Okay, it's interesting. It takes them several tries, and I 457 00:32:43.799 --> 00:32:46.680 think that's why he actually did drop har But a matter of fact, I 458 00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:50.480 found up the first time he tried it, he was given lessons. He 459 00:32:50.599 --> 00:32:52.119 was like piece of cake, no big deal. He ran it into a 460 00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:57.400 wall. It took somewhere lesson and like I said, that happened because Bob 461 00:32:57.480 --> 00:33:00.079 Phillips wasn't around it. Amore. He became very good friend for John Cassavettis, 462 00:33:00.519 --> 00:33:05.839 and when Phillips arrived in London, he was extremely upset about what was 463 00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:07.519 going to happen to his character. He did do some voice over work in 464 00:33:07.559 --> 00:33:12.240 the film too, when the dozen are grumbling about this side or the other. 465 00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:15.799 But cass he told Cassavettis how pissed off he was that Cassavettis gave him 466 00:33:15.799 --> 00:33:20.240 some very safe advice. He said, look, I know you're upset, 467 00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:22.880 and you have reason to be upset, but do yourself a favor if anybody 468 00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:27.079 asks you how this movie is going tell him it's great. Tell him it's 469 00:33:27.079 --> 00:33:29.839 the best thing you ever did. Why Because they're not going to know for 470 00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:32.119 another year until the movie comes out. If you tell him it's great and 471 00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:36.400 they don't know anything about it, it'll get you more work. And Bob 472 00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:37.960 Phillips said, that was probably the smartest thing anybody ever said to me, 473 00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:43.000 because that's exactly what happened. And Cassavettis was no fool. He knew how 474 00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:45.640 the game was played. And one of the things I loved about, aside 475 00:33:45.640 --> 00:33:47.599 from the fact that he's my favorite thing in the film. Look, I 476 00:33:47.680 --> 00:33:52.200 love Lee Marvin and he was great, but Cassavettis commits grant theft, larceny. 477 00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:57.200 He just steals that movie. He's incredible and I love finding out. 478 00:33:57.559 --> 00:34:00.799 He had told a biographer that he's said, I didn't think I'd get along 479 00:34:00.839 --> 00:34:04.720 with Robert Aldred, but believe it or not, I got along break He's 480 00:34:04.759 --> 00:34:07.719 the best director other than myself, I ever worked with. And he said 481 00:34:07.760 --> 00:34:12.039 the reason why was he called He said he was more than a coach. 482 00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:15.920 He said he called his cast the monsters. Be like during rehearsal, all 483 00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:20.239 right, monsters around the table, and every time we do the read through, 484 00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:22.960 Casservetti said, I had no fear. Anytime he wanted somebody to do 485 00:34:23.079 --> 00:34:27.719 something or come up with an idea for something, Cassavetti said, I'd shoot 486 00:34:27.760 --> 00:34:30.880 my hand up right away. I'll do it. You want somebody, I'll 487 00:34:30.920 --> 00:34:31.960 do it. And he said, and all the other dogs that would be 488 00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:37.320 grumbling under their breath. But many of the things Casservettis did on screen were 489 00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:42.360 complete improvisations. He'd work it out in rehearsal, but it wasn't in the 490 00:34:42.360 --> 00:34:46.039 script necessarily. And Lee Mormon had said to another cast member, he loved 491 00:34:46.079 --> 00:34:51.519 working with John because he goes. John plays his part so well. He 492 00:34:51.639 --> 00:34:54.119 gives me so much to work with. It makes my job easier. I 493 00:34:54.199 --> 00:34:58.280 can go with whatever he's giving me, and it winds up being brilliant. 494 00:34:58.360 --> 00:35:00.559 And if you think of some of the scenes they together, you can see 495 00:35:00.679 --> 00:35:05.480 it when Marvin interviews cassavetties in the cell at the beginning of the movie, 496 00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:10.079 and Cassavetti says that great lascivious laugh, and he's had you a general, 497 00:35:10.840 --> 00:35:14.719 yet out of general, because only a general can grant my reprieve. And 498 00:35:14.840 --> 00:35:17.760 you see Marvin Rolla's eyes and go look stupid. It was the way they 499 00:35:17.880 --> 00:35:22.159 played off each other that was so brilliant, and Cassavetties know it and so 500 00:35:22.239 --> 00:35:25.039 did Marvin, and it worked great, and Marvin was the same way at 501 00:35:25.079 --> 00:35:29.119 certain moments in the movie. Jim Brown was the one who said in his 502 00:35:29.159 --> 00:35:34.280 autobiography that Cassavetties was our spiritual leader. He was a great little mentor, 503 00:35:34.440 --> 00:35:37.599 because whatever mood he was in that day was the way Franco wasn't the way 504 00:35:37.639 --> 00:35:40.960 we all were. Okay, he goes, If Franco was going to be 505 00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:46.440 mischievous, John was mischievous, and so were we all. If Cassavetties was 506 00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:50.639 moody, Franco was moody, and we were moody. We all took our 507 00:35:50.679 --> 00:35:53.320 queue from him. He goes. He was a great natural teacher. And 508 00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:59.239 I think that rubbed off if you remember that scene where Triny Lopez is supposed 509 00:35:59.239 --> 00:36:01.800 to climb the rope and he can't do it, and then which by the 510 00:36:01.840 --> 00:36:05.800 way, he's right out of the book. They changed the at certain aspects 511 00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:08.840 of it that it wasn't the yeminager was another character. But anyway, and 512 00:36:09.559 --> 00:36:13.840 I can't make it major. And then Lee Marvin cuts the end of the 513 00:36:13.960 --> 00:36:16.000 rope right by his feet with the machine gun, and you see him scramble 514 00:36:16.079 --> 00:36:20.960 up the rope and then Marvin says, all right, who's next, and 515 00:36:21.119 --> 00:36:25.719 Cassavetties goes partially improvised line. He goes that you said Mayonaise was the only 516 00:36:25.760 --> 00:36:29.480 one's supposed to climate get to the top of the shot too, by the 517 00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:35.920 way him calling ms Mayonnaise, great touch all Cassavetties, and Marvin holds his 518 00:36:36.039 --> 00:36:39.480 gun on his hip and the way he says this line not written this way. 519 00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:43.719 He has written this way, but you can't put this in the script 520 00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:45.480 of how it's supposed to be played. He rolls his eyes and he goes 521 00:36:46.039 --> 00:36:50.480 west to pause him and gets call before he makes it to the top of 522 00:36:50.519 --> 00:36:57.400 the Chataul just really making fun of Cassavetties. And it's brilliant doing this effeminate 523 00:36:57.559 --> 00:37:00.599 voice because I don't have time for this. There's a brilliant way to do 524 00:37:01.159 --> 00:37:05.679 that scene. And then he tells Clinton Walker, one of the few references 525 00:37:05.719 --> 00:37:08.960 in the film to Walker's character being a Native American, saying, all right, 526 00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:13.159 posy, let's see some of that apatche know how that rope and then 527 00:37:13.159 --> 00:37:16.960 he'll try to Captivady to go all right, Franco, you're next, just 528 00:37:17.400 --> 00:37:21.360 really sticking it to him. A lot of great moment and like I said, 529 00:37:21.480 --> 00:37:24.280 making my point, it's about character, not the mission, although the 530 00:37:24.320 --> 00:37:28.960 mission itself is pretty impressive. He talked about how this would play on TV 531 00:37:29.119 --> 00:37:32.760 over two nights, and I can see that because it's a long movie. 532 00:37:32.920 --> 00:37:37.199 But did they have to pad it out at all to make it fit with 533 00:37:37.519 --> 00:37:42.800 commercials? Did they have any scenes that were shot and never put back in 534 00:37:42.880 --> 00:37:45.360 the movie or just played for TV? First of all, they used to 535 00:37:45.400 --> 00:37:49.880 show a lot less commercials in those days. That's one thing. There was 536 00:37:49.960 --> 00:37:52.320 usually only one or two sponsors for a given program. Now there's like thousands, 537 00:37:52.840 --> 00:37:58.599 especially on cable. But that aside. When I saw it theatrically many 538 00:37:58.679 --> 00:38:00.960 years later, I think it was like teams appointments. To my mind, 539 00:38:01.079 --> 00:38:05.599 I don't remember them. I hadn't cut anything, and it was done in 540 00:38:05.639 --> 00:38:07.199 such a way it isn't long movie, longer than I after to feel like 541 00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:10.360 that. And it was two and a half hours. So if you cut 542 00:38:10.440 --> 00:38:15.840 that completely in half in a two hour time slot, making it a kind 543 00:38:15.840 --> 00:38:19.800 of a four hours, than then the extra thirty minutes are just commercials. 544 00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:22.960 So that's how they did it, and also too in part two they also 545 00:38:23.079 --> 00:38:25.679 had to do a kind of a revamp of a minute or two a book 546 00:38:25.719 --> 00:38:30.199 from the night before, and then you would always go and now part two 547 00:38:30.360 --> 00:38:34.559 of the Dirty Dozen. I do know for a fact that because for several 548 00:38:34.639 --> 00:38:39.840 reasons, there were major changes made in the script that was cut for purposes 549 00:38:39.840 --> 00:38:45.519 of censorship and also cut the purposes of time. Because the movie was running 550 00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:51.079 along very it ran way over schedule and way over budget, which was something 551 00:38:51.079 --> 00:38:53.480 that Jim jam was very fearful of. It's just going to pay out somehow, 552 00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:58.280 and so much so. It's also the reason why Jim Brown quit the 553 00:38:58.440 --> 00:39:02.039 NFL and was supposed to go back to the sixty seven season and go into 554 00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:07.679 the preseason workouts. He was only twenty nine, but he retired from the 555 00:39:07.760 --> 00:39:10.199 NFL, and he held the press conference during the making of the movie saying 556 00:39:10.239 --> 00:39:15.280 why which that's the kind of publicity you can't buy because I'm sure people who 557 00:39:15.320 --> 00:39:19.400 may have seen that press conference on the last half of the news but thinking 558 00:39:19.840 --> 00:39:22.880 how great a movie must this be? If the greatest running back in the 559 00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:27.920 history of NFL is willing to quit to finish the film, so there was 560 00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:32.000 that, and in the script, as in the novel, there were many 561 00:39:32.119 --> 00:39:36.880 changes made it which I point out in the book, taking a hit on 562 00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:40.639 the book criticism about me summarizing the novel to make the point about what's different 563 00:39:40.679 --> 00:39:45.199 from the book from the film. That's why I did it. And there 564 00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:46.480 were several people who said things like, oh, read the beginning, read 565 00:39:46.519 --> 00:39:50.960 like a book report, but then it gets exciting, or I didn't this, 566 00:39:51.480 --> 00:39:52.599 now I got to read the novel, no schmuck. You don't have 567 00:39:52.639 --> 00:39:57.320 to read the novel now. I just summarized did and I summarized it with 568 00:39:57.400 --> 00:40:01.039 the intent of showing what the the film was different. Now having said that, 569 00:40:01.639 --> 00:40:05.880 there were two female characters that were in the book. One of them 570 00:40:05.960 --> 00:40:09.639 was a major character in the book later completely taken out, as well as 571 00:40:09.679 --> 00:40:15.920 the other character who was a barmaid girlfriend of Major Reisman, who's a captain 572 00:40:15.960 --> 00:40:20.039 in the book by the way, Captain Reisman, and they cut her out 573 00:40:20.079 --> 00:40:23.199 completely. That was for censorship reasons. The censors read the script and when 574 00:40:23.800 --> 00:40:28.719 you can't have this, and it was sixty it was going to be released 575 00:40:28.840 --> 00:40:34.079 sixty seven, so the production code was like in Flux there were changes, 576 00:40:34.159 --> 00:40:36.920 but there were still rules they had to apply. And what's funny it was 577 00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:38.719 the very next year, in sixty eight, is when they came out with 578 00:40:38.840 --> 00:40:45.639 the gpg r X, But in sixty seven it didn't exist yet, and 579 00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:50.559 any time the barmaid whose name was Tess, was mentioned, the censors just 580 00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:53.639 went not, no, you had because whenever she's in the screen screenplay, 581 00:40:54.039 --> 00:40:58.800 she's having sex with Reisman, and at one point I think the censor wrote 582 00:40:59.159 --> 00:41:05.280 he can't be her again in a memo. And there was another character who 583 00:41:05.360 --> 00:41:08.599 was a major plot point named Lady Margot. She's in the very beginning of 584 00:41:08.639 --> 00:41:13.639 the book and she's throughout the book, and she's an important character and anything 585 00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:20.639 about her. She is a rich British widow who owns the property that the 586 00:41:20.840 --> 00:41:24.280 dirty doesn't here training them, and Reichman has to make nice with her and 587 00:41:24.360 --> 00:41:28.719 try to make nice with her, and he doesn't succeed because she's very cold 588 00:41:28.760 --> 00:41:31.079 and meant to him, but she's forced to because of the War Department, 589 00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:35.679 and she tries everything she can to get back at Richman. One of the 590 00:41:35.800 --> 00:41:40.440 things she does is in the book she's having an affair with Colonel Breed, 591 00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:45.920 so One of the things they never explained in the movie is how does Breed 592 00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:50.599 know what the compact is when he evages He finds out in the book from 593 00:41:50.679 --> 00:41:54.320 Lady Margot because she's sleeping with him. Yeah, things like that. All 594 00:41:54.400 --> 00:41:59.480 of that was completely taken out of the film. There were sections where it's 595 00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:02.480 in there, but with the revise script they decided to cut it out, 596 00:42:02.599 --> 00:42:06.559 and Aldridge really didn't have a problem with that. In fact, there's a 597 00:42:06.639 --> 00:42:12.360 memo of him writing to Ken Himan about how we're over budget and we're overscheduled. 598 00:42:12.400 --> 00:42:15.000 We got to start doing some cutting. You just have to, and 599 00:42:15.199 --> 00:42:17.320 anything that's not important to the plot, we've got to go. Now. 600 00:42:17.840 --> 00:42:23.519 In the sequence where they're at Breed's parachute school, okay, other than the 601 00:42:23.639 --> 00:42:28.920 scene where Bronson gets beat up into latrine, everything else was cut out. 602 00:42:29.719 --> 00:42:34.280 Also when they first got there, Donald Sulvin imitates to general okay, everything 603 00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:36.719 else was cut out, And there was a whole lot more to that sequence. 604 00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:40.119 There were seen a Breed making fun of Reisman in front of the Dirty 605 00:42:40.159 --> 00:42:44.480 Dozen, Reichman getting back at him, all this other stuff. It was 606 00:42:44.559 --> 00:42:46.719 all cut out, all of which were also in the book too. Now 607 00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:52.719 Aldridge also wanted that scene of Bronson getting beat up cut out too, but 608 00:42:52.920 --> 00:42:57.079 Heyman made the point, obviously, you can't do that because that's when the 609 00:42:57.280 --> 00:43:00.400 dozen't decide first of all, that they can't trust Reisman, but it also 610 00:43:00.519 --> 00:43:05.639 leads into the scene when Breed comes into the compound, they see the two 611 00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:09.119 guys who beat up Waterslaw and go Hey, Reisman was on the up and 612 00:43:09.239 --> 00:43:15.760 up all along at that he wasn't in on this, so that's why it 613 00:43:15.880 --> 00:43:17.679 was left in. But all the other stuff that was all cut out, 614 00:43:19.119 --> 00:43:24.159 and because of that, there are certain moments in the movie that Dale Die. 615 00:43:24.559 --> 00:43:29.519 You know who he is, okay. Dale Die is a military advisor 616 00:43:29.960 --> 00:43:35.599 to motion pictures and TV ever since the early eighties, and he helps filmmakers 617 00:43:35.719 --> 00:43:39.320 make movies war films more believable, which they really hadn't been in the past. 618 00:43:39.719 --> 00:43:43.559 He worked on Saving the Private Ryan, He Will Come Platoon, worked 619 00:43:43.599 --> 00:43:46.800 on a lot of movies making them more believable, and he loves the dirty 620 00:43:46.880 --> 00:43:51.320 doesn't. He's on record as saying how much he goes lean Robert can read 621 00:43:51.320 --> 00:43:53.559 the phone book, I'm gonna watch this movie couldn't matter. But he was 622 00:43:53.679 --> 00:43:58.400 extremely critical of the filmmakers and what they did to make the film, and 623 00:43:58.480 --> 00:44:01.119 it's all in the DVD commentary, and he points out some very good obvious 624 00:44:01.280 --> 00:44:07.000 mistakes, things like during the raid on the chateau, why are they wearing 625 00:44:07.639 --> 00:44:12.159 shiny combat helmets, It doesn't make any sense, and things like that, 626 00:44:12.519 --> 00:44:17.039 and also about some of the equipment they were using being too modern, things 627 00:44:17.079 --> 00:44:20.960 like that, and that's all valid, But I had my own problems with 628 00:44:21.079 --> 00:44:23.679 the film that for a long time went unanswered. One of the biggest things 629 00:44:23.840 --> 00:44:30.000 most fans of the film just scratched their heads over to this day is what 630 00:44:30.440 --> 00:44:34.320 happened to Posy. They never show what happened to him, but they do 631 00:44:34.440 --> 00:44:37.639 show him on the crawl at the end of the film about everybody who would 632 00:44:37.639 --> 00:44:39.760 die, so clearly he's dead. But because they don't show him die, 633 00:44:40.400 --> 00:44:45.000 many fans thought, hey, Posy survived. No, he didn't survive. 634 00:44:45.480 --> 00:44:47.599 There was a thing that was written up. They show everybody else being killed, 635 00:44:47.920 --> 00:44:52.599 but they didn't show Posy being killed because Posy had a specific way of 636 00:44:52.719 --> 00:44:57.480 dying that Clint Walker was very much looking forward to. In that it was 637 00:44:57.679 --> 00:45:00.719 they took two different scenes from the book and put it together. At the 638 00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:06.239 end of the chateau explosion to a posy and what he was gonna do when 639 00:45:06.239 --> 00:45:08.360 he was up in the machine gun nest for Bravos when they looked like they 640 00:45:08.440 --> 00:45:13.519 were being overrun by Germans. He rips off his shirt, he smears himself 641 00:45:13.559 --> 00:45:17.639 with wallpaint, grabs his grease gud and just starts shooting and screaming like Rambo 642 00:45:19.159 --> 00:45:22.679 and until he shot down. They were planning on doing that, Clint Walker 643 00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:27.480 said, I rehearsed it and everything, but then because Robert Aldwards knew that 644 00:45:27.599 --> 00:45:32.079 they were short on time, he decided, we're gonna shoot Jim Brown throwing 645 00:45:32.119 --> 00:45:35.679 those green age into the event, and we're gonna have to not be able 646 00:45:35.719 --> 00:45:38.400 to show what happened to Hint Walker, because after what happens to Jim Brown, 647 00:45:38.639 --> 00:45:42.639 everything else is not the climb actor. And a matter of fact, 648 00:45:42.679 --> 00:45:46.239 that was the main reason why Jim Brown was hired. Alds loved football, 649 00:45:46.480 --> 00:45:50.119 but he didn't know Jim Brown could act on that, so he asked Jim 650 00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:54.000 Brown's agent. I loved the story. Legendary agent named Phil Gersh who represented 651 00:45:54.039 --> 00:45:58.400 Brown in his first film, Everybody Thinks Dirty Doesn't was the film debut. 652 00:45:58.480 --> 00:46:01.000 It wasn't it was a western he made a year two before your conscios. 653 00:46:01.440 --> 00:46:07.079 So when Phil Girsh presented Jim Brown to Robert Aldred as a hospible cast member 654 00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:12.440 because Sidney Portier passed by the way, Aldred said, look, I know 655 00:46:12.519 --> 00:46:14.559 this guy can play football, but what the hell else can he do? 656 00:46:14.920 --> 00:46:19.079 And Phil Gurrsh smiled and said he can run faster than any actor you've got, 657 00:46:19.559 --> 00:46:22.239 and Aldred said, okay, I think we could do something with that. 658 00:46:22.960 --> 00:46:25.920 And when you watch it, he does Another great little side anecdote about 659 00:46:25.960 --> 00:46:30.079 Jim Brown was just before they were to shoot that scene, which is really 660 00:46:30.159 --> 00:46:34.480 well done, and everybody's hanging him on. Come on, Jefferson. Just 661 00:46:34.679 --> 00:46:37.840 before he was going to do that, he had his own in prov as 662 00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:42.199 well. Brown turning to Aldred and he goes, luck, I've had a 663 00:46:42.239 --> 00:46:45.239 lot of fun making this movie. But before I throw the grenade, will 664 00:46:45.280 --> 00:46:50.880 you let me kill a Nazi? And Altrid goes, You've got one of 665 00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:52.920 the best scenes in the movie. Why do you want to kill a Nazi? 666 00:46:52.960 --> 00:46:53.679 And he goes, oh, come on, let me kill a Nazi. 667 00:46:53.719 --> 00:46:58.480 It'll be fun. And when you watch that scene, just before he 668 00:46:58.559 --> 00:47:01.239 does the run with the grenade. A sniper at the top of the chateau 669 00:47:01.559 --> 00:47:05.760 and he shoots down on Brown, and Jim Brown fires at him when he 670 00:47:05.800 --> 00:47:08.079 falls through the glass. Then he throws the grenade, so he got to 671 00:47:08.159 --> 00:47:14.840 kill a nasty Going back to what you were saying earlier, I really appreciate 672 00:47:15.119 --> 00:47:19.519 the way that you summarize the novel and that you gave us that point in 673 00:47:19.599 --> 00:47:22.840 comparison. So I thought that the book was put together so well, and 674 00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:29.559 I hope overall it's been positive response because it's terrific. I haven't gotten a 675 00:47:29.639 --> 00:47:32.400 whole lot of professional book reviews. I've gotten about three or four, and 676 00:47:32.599 --> 00:47:37.679 all of them have been positive. But some of the reviewers on Amazon, 677 00:47:37.159 --> 00:47:40.599 who with all due respect, may not be able to read a book too 678 00:47:40.679 --> 00:47:44.960 well. But some of them, I'd say maybe two or three at the 679 00:47:45.119 --> 00:47:50.159 most. Out of I think twenty physical reviews, not just rating but physical 680 00:47:50.199 --> 00:47:53.239 reviews that I got, most of them have been very positive and outstanding, 681 00:47:53.360 --> 00:47:58.719 mostly five star reviews. To trying to get more reviews, I got one 682 00:47:58.840 --> 00:48:02.480 from the Library Journal and I got one from the Washington Examiner, very positive 683 00:48:02.559 --> 00:48:07.320 reviews. They got it, they understood what I was trying to do. 684 00:48:07.400 --> 00:48:10.960 In the first couple of chapters, I started the book with a biography of 685 00:48:12.119 --> 00:48:14.760 Nathanson, which I think is important to do because you got to know where 686 00:48:14.920 --> 00:48:20.360 the author's coming from, working throughout how he got to write The Dirty Doesn't. 687 00:48:20.760 --> 00:48:22.760 And by the way, like I mentioned before, I didn't do his 688 00:48:22.880 --> 00:48:25.360 son, Michael Nathanson. He was a published author himself, and a lot 689 00:48:25.400 --> 00:48:30.760 of people don't know this, but in the eighties he wrote other stuff mcknathanson, 690 00:48:30.880 --> 00:48:36.639 other novels with varying degrees of success. But I think it's like nineteen 691 00:48:36.679 --> 00:48:39.360 eighty three eighty four, he actually wrote a sequel to The Dirty Doesn't, 692 00:48:39.599 --> 00:48:44.679 and it was called A Dirty Distant War. And as far as writing goes 693 00:48:44.800 --> 00:48:47.400 and story, it's better than The Dirty Does It, truly is. I 694 00:48:47.559 --> 00:48:52.760 read it. It's incredible and the premises this he told an interviewer at the 695 00:48:52.840 --> 00:48:55.880 time. I think it was at the La Times that when he came up 696 00:48:55.920 --> 00:49:00.159 with the idea for it, it was based on the adventure years of a 697 00:49:00.280 --> 00:49:06.000 philosopher doctor who had gone to Vietnam and what his experiences were, and he 698 00:49:06.079 --> 00:49:08.559 goes, I found that fascinating, and what he decided to do was write 699 00:49:08.559 --> 00:49:15.199 a novel about our entrance into Vietnam. And it takes place during World War 700 00:49:15.280 --> 00:49:19.760 Two. It's not before the French got there or anything like that. It's 701 00:49:19.840 --> 00:49:22.960 during World War two. And he said, I was sick and tired of 702 00:49:22.119 --> 00:49:25.119 John Reisman. I didn't want to go anywhere near John Reisman. But he 703 00:49:25.159 --> 00:49:29.960 goes the way this story was playing out, I realized John Reisman is the 704 00:49:30.039 --> 00:49:32.519 perfect league. He's the guy to play this, to be in the story, 705 00:49:32.559 --> 00:49:37.440 the Catalystican story. And so consequently, the many of the Dozen who 706 00:49:37.519 --> 00:49:42.920 didn't die in the novel came back in Dirty Distant War to help Reisman on 707 00:49:43.039 --> 00:49:46.599 his mission. Now Reisman's mission in the novel The Dirty Dozen, he's not 708 00:49:46.719 --> 00:49:51.239 in the Army. He is in the Army, but he's in a special 709 00:49:51.440 --> 00:49:53.840 unit of the OSS. And if you know anything about the OSS, they're 710 00:49:53.840 --> 00:49:59.440 actually the precursor of the CIA. It was started by wild Bill I mean 711 00:50:00.119 --> 00:50:04.480 escapes me. Robert de Niro played it in a movie, and so they're 712 00:50:04.480 --> 00:50:08.320 all about undercover works and the Nathanson said, the reason why he made Reisman 713 00:50:08.360 --> 00:50:12.880 in the OSS is because it made it more believable, Because he said the 714 00:50:13.000 --> 00:50:15.519 US Army would never come up with something like this, it would have to 715 00:50:15.559 --> 00:50:20.480 be something really subversive and covert. And so John Reisman's job in A Dirty 716 00:50:20.519 --> 00:50:24.880 Distant War is to go into Southeast Asia under the guise of another mission, 717 00:50:24.920 --> 00:50:30.280 but his real mission is to find out where are the Chinese, where are 718 00:50:30.320 --> 00:50:35.559 the French, and where the Cambodians in Southeast Asia? But then it was 719 00:50:35.599 --> 00:50:40.280 called Indo China. Where do they stand in terms of who side they're on 720 00:50:40.440 --> 00:50:45.000 during the war, because they're getting mixed. And when he goes there and 721 00:50:45.039 --> 00:50:49.719 he starts finding stuff out, one of the people he encounters is this little 722 00:50:50.280 --> 00:50:55.280 revered man who had done time in a Chinese pow camp and he had done 723 00:50:55.360 --> 00:50:58.559 this, that and the other, and whatever adventure he had been in. 724 00:50:58.880 --> 00:51:04.760 He changes his name and at the time Reisman meets him and bonds with him. 725 00:51:04.880 --> 00:51:07.079 He asked him what his name was, and he tells him, my 726 00:51:07.239 --> 00:51:12.360 name is Vietnam means for everyone's uncle. And so Reisman asked him what does 727 00:51:12.360 --> 00:51:15.840 that mean? And this gentleman goes, people call me ho chi men. 728 00:51:15.320 --> 00:51:20.679 And after I read that, I looked it up and apparently Nathanson did his 729 00:51:20.800 --> 00:51:25.320 homework. That's true. And from there it takes off into all these amazing 730 00:51:25.400 --> 00:51:30.599 adventures that are very believable. And as a friend of Nathanson told me who 731 00:51:30.679 --> 00:51:34.599 I also went into a Guynan Frank McAdams, He goes, when I read 732 00:51:34.639 --> 00:51:37.559 the novel, you do this sometimes when you read something that really gives you 733 00:51:37.639 --> 00:51:40.800 pause, he goes. I closed the book and sat on my couch for 734 00:51:40.960 --> 00:51:45.199 thirty minutes just staring at the back cover. It affected me that much. 735 00:51:45.639 --> 00:51:50.400 And it's funny once he told me that I did the same. It's really 736 00:51:50.480 --> 00:51:53.760 well written, and it ends by letting you know, this is just the 737 00:51:53.880 --> 00:52:00.840 beginning. Really well done. There's a lot more to it tells about everybody 738 00:52:00.880 --> 00:52:01.360 in the calf. Oh, when you ask me who I interviewed, I 739 00:52:01.360 --> 00:52:05.800 also interviewed a gentleman in Colin, Maitland who was one of the dozen in 740 00:52:05.960 --> 00:52:10.320 the lower dozen. Several other people. Dora Riser, who is the only 741 00:52:10.840 --> 00:52:15.280 known female in the cash other than the prostitutes they bring in who only have 742 00:52:15.440 --> 00:52:19.760 one or two lines. But she's the woman that tell us about his taunt 743 00:52:19.800 --> 00:52:25.480 and ultimately kills. I interviewed her great interview talk about ironies. She is 744 00:52:25.559 --> 00:52:30.079 the one who is she's basically a nachi prostitute, right. Or she called 745 00:52:30.119 --> 00:52:36.800 it herself a Nazi horror, and the interesting irony is she's a Holocaust survivor, 746 00:52:37.320 --> 00:52:39.400 right, And she told me some interesting things about having to play that 747 00:52:39.559 --> 00:52:45.519 character and the way it affected her another person I had interviewed. In terms 748 00:52:45.559 --> 00:52:49.639 of the book itself, I think people can still buy it based on however 749 00:52:49.800 --> 00:52:52.519 much I just shot my big mouth off because there's a whole a lot of 750 00:52:52.599 --> 00:52:58.719 stuff in there that I didn't mention, much of it being Bob Phillips stories 751 00:52:59.320 --> 00:53:02.639 about babysitting Lee Marvin. They're great, They're terrific story. They're a lot 752 00:53:02.679 --> 00:53:07.639 of fun. Obviously, we want to leave some mystery and try to get 753 00:53:07.719 --> 00:53:12.159 some more people to pick up your book. But I did want to ask 754 00:53:12.280 --> 00:53:15.199 you, what are you working on now? Immediately after I turned into the 755 00:53:15.280 --> 00:53:22.880 manuscript to Killing Generals, my agent called me up and said, Mazeltop, 756 00:53:22.960 --> 00:53:24.880 that's great, congratulations, what's next? What are you gonna do next? 757 00:53:24.920 --> 00:53:29.320 So he goes, okay, you got a week and then come back back 758 00:53:29.360 --> 00:53:32.280 to me with something. So what I did was we okay. We talked 759 00:53:32.280 --> 00:53:37.000 about several possibilities. One of them I thought was really going to happen. 760 00:53:37.400 --> 00:53:40.280 A book about the making of a Hustler now the pol Neman movie. Now, 761 00:53:40.480 --> 00:53:45.119 naturally that movie came up about eight years before The Dirty Dozen't, so 762 00:53:45.719 --> 00:53:51.480 there's a whole lot less people around now. Piper Laurie, she's still around. 763 00:53:51.480 --> 00:53:52.840 I think she's still on her ninety she's still around. I had a 764 00:53:52.880 --> 00:53:55.880 contact to talk to her. The guy who wrote, directed, and produced 765 00:53:55.920 --> 00:54:00.840 the film, Robert Ross, and his daughter is alive and she was involved 766 00:54:00.880 --> 00:54:05.599 in the filmmaking. I did get to contact her. My agent was friends 767 00:54:05.719 --> 00:54:09.159 with the guy who wrote the sequel, Richard Price, an amazing writer. 768 00:54:09.639 --> 00:54:15.519 Everything he does is just spectacular. He said, I'll put you in touch 769 00:54:15.519 --> 00:54:17.519 with Richard Price, won't you get the proposal together. I did all of 770 00:54:17.599 --> 00:54:21.639 that, and because who were gonna write, I was gonna write about the 771 00:54:21.679 --> 00:54:25.159 sequel as well. He had contact with Scorsese, Tom Cruise. We were 772 00:54:25.199 --> 00:54:28.519 going to do all of that, and he wanted me to highlight the fact 773 00:54:28.639 --> 00:54:31.039 on the cover that Tom Cruise was involved in the film in the sequel, 774 00:54:31.280 --> 00:54:34.840 because Tom Cruise is red hot, and I was like, he's always read 775 00:54:34.880 --> 00:54:37.880 hot. He never went out of the box office. And I put the 776 00:54:37.920 --> 00:54:42.480 whole thing together, kept my fingers crossed and ultimately the publisher who had published 777 00:54:42.519 --> 00:54:45.559 The Dirty does in mine. No, I don't think, so that went 778 00:54:45.599 --> 00:54:47.840 to the wayside. Then I talked about the possibility of doing the book on 779 00:54:49.320 --> 00:54:53.039 one of my all time favorite films, Sweets Model Success BT Lancaster, Tony 780 00:54:53.079 --> 00:54:55.800 Curtiff. God, I love that movie. It's a near perfect film, 781 00:54:57.280 --> 00:55:04.039 and it's a gritty New York movies. There's no gangsters, there's no underworld 782 00:55:04.159 --> 00:55:08.760 figures, there's no crime story involved other than how crooked the lead characters are. 783 00:55:10.000 --> 00:55:13.880 And I put together what I considered to be a really good proposal, 784 00:55:13.920 --> 00:55:19.880 but once again I was told it's too long ago. Nobody really cares. 785 00:55:20.079 --> 00:55:22.159 Never mind the fact that the film may have flop when it came out financially, 786 00:55:22.639 --> 00:55:27.360 got rave reviews, and more importantly, it is a bona fide cult 787 00:55:27.440 --> 00:55:31.519 film. Then it's off the charts. It's incredible anyway, He's the editors 788 00:55:31.559 --> 00:55:36.320 still passed out. It wouldn't even bring it up to the editorial board for 789 00:55:36.400 --> 00:55:40.119 the publisher that the thumbs up the thumbs down. After that, my editor 790 00:55:40.239 --> 00:55:43.400 said to me, my excuse me. My agent said, look, I 791 00:55:43.519 --> 00:55:47.199 know you have favorite films and favorite actors. Why don't you, one of 792 00:55:47.239 --> 00:55:50.360 them being, by the way, Burt Lancaster, as I mentioned a moment 793 00:55:50.440 --> 00:55:53.199 though, also James Cagney. Oh, that was another possibility. I was 794 00:55:53.239 --> 00:55:57.519 thinking about writing a book on White Heat, but I don't know why. 795 00:55:57.559 --> 00:56:00.480 This is weird. He was able to get a contract to a book on 796 00:56:00.639 --> 00:56:05.639 the making of Strangers on a Train and Shadow of a Doubt Hitchcock films from 797 00:56:05.639 --> 00:56:08.599 the forties. I wanted to do White Heat, and he said to me, 798 00:56:08.719 --> 00:56:12.679 Hey, that's one of my favorite movies too, But there's nobody around 799 00:56:12.760 --> 00:56:17.199 to fortify your research. And I was very disappointed in that. So I 800 00:56:17.280 --> 00:56:22.079 tried Lancaster, I tried Cagney. You can try Paul Newman. Then he 801 00:56:22.320 --> 00:56:25.719 said, what about Steve McQueen film and An Hour on the Right Track? 802 00:56:27.159 --> 00:56:30.519 Because of the three, Steve McQueen is numero always has and I have a 803 00:56:30.599 --> 00:56:37.880 specific reason why. Nan He asked me what movies haven't been written about specific 804 00:56:37.000 --> 00:56:39.480 books? And the first one he said, it's how about the Great Escape? 805 00:56:39.519 --> 00:56:43.159 But a little bit about five books written about the making of the Great 806 00:56:43.199 --> 00:56:46.360 Escape and the actual escape itself, And he goes, how about a bullet 807 00:56:46.519 --> 00:56:51.159 went, I mean books have been written about bullet there's actually a lot, 808 00:56:51.280 --> 00:56:54.679 and there's actually a book called Bullet McQueen and his Machines. They've actually then 809 00:56:54.760 --> 00:57:00.039 books about the cars in the movie. And he said, ask you what's 810 00:57:00.039 --> 00:57:05.079 your all time favorite Steve McQueen movie, And I said Papian And he said, 811 00:57:05.320 --> 00:57:07.639 sorry, not going to happen. It's not popular enough. And then 812 00:57:07.679 --> 00:57:12.480 he said, let me ask you what was a popular Steve McQueen movie that 813 00:57:12.559 --> 00:57:15.599 nobody's written about. And I told him, and he said, that can 814 00:57:15.679 --> 00:57:20.440 work. I think we can get this to work. Now. I'm not 815 00:57:20.519 --> 00:57:23.239 going to tell you what movie that is, because I don't want to put 816 00:57:23.280 --> 00:57:27.239 the jinks on it. And it's right now currently in the hands of the 817 00:57:27.320 --> 00:57:30.679 publisher who likes it and wants me to polish it a little bit more. 818 00:57:31.000 --> 00:57:35.000 And so maybe in a month or two i'll get a yea year in a 819 00:57:35.159 --> 00:57:37.079 of course, we'd like to think it t a but I think this can 820 00:57:37.159 --> 00:57:40.440 work, and if I can, I'm going to tell you the reason, 821 00:57:40.599 --> 00:57:45.239 if you don't mind, why I'm such a Stephen queene. Always like him 822 00:57:45.239 --> 00:57:47.599 anyway, even when I was a little kid. But I don't want to 823 00:57:47.599 --> 00:57:52.639 go too much into detailed but I had a kind of a rough childhood personally, 824 00:57:53.079 --> 00:57:57.599 and part of that was based on the way I was raised. And 825 00:57:57.679 --> 00:58:00.719 at one point, a matter of fact, the week the movie came into 826 00:58:00.840 --> 00:58:05.639 theaters, it was the summer of seventy three when it came out. Now, 827 00:58:06.119 --> 00:58:10.480 I snuck out and I went to see it. And movie affects people 828 00:58:10.519 --> 00:58:15.840 emotionally more than a psychologically, or maybe even as much spiritually, but emotionally. 829 00:58:16.280 --> 00:58:21.159 There's that scene in the movie when he's in solitary confinement. Hands down, 830 00:58:21.239 --> 00:58:23.159 one of the best pieces of acting I've ever seen. It's not only 831 00:58:23.199 --> 00:58:29.639 so believable, it's heart lending. And when he's first in solitary confinement, 832 00:58:29.840 --> 00:58:32.320 he jumps up on the bars and whispers, I'm still here. You bastards. 833 00:58:32.800 --> 00:58:36.360 Got to me like nothing else. At the end of the movie, 834 00:58:36.800 --> 00:58:39.079 when he's on the raft made of coconuts and he looks right in the camera 835 00:58:39.199 --> 00:58:44.800 and says, hey, you bastards, I'm still here. That had an 836 00:58:44.840 --> 00:58:46.679 effect on me like nothing else. I got it. It makes me cheer 837 00:58:46.800 --> 00:58:51.519 up even now because of what I was going through, and it made me 838 00:58:51.679 --> 00:58:55.760 realize things are tough, but if you believe and fight back and don't let 839 00:58:55.840 --> 00:59:00.800 them get to you, you will rise, you will survive, and I'm 840 00:59:00.840 --> 00:59:04.320 not making this up. I went home that night and I watched The Great 841 00:59:04.480 --> 00:59:08.559 Escape. It was on TV that night, and when you see him not 842 00:59:08.679 --> 00:59:13.159 quite making the jump over the bob wire and he puts his hands up and 843 00:59:13.280 --> 00:59:16.000 he looks at the Germans and the Nazis and he smiles. He's not giving 844 00:59:16.119 --> 00:59:20.320 up. This is not the end of the Cooler Kid. And then about 845 00:59:20.320 --> 00:59:22.000 a day or two later, it must have been like Steve McQueen week, 846 00:59:22.119 --> 00:59:27.079 I don't know, it was weird. TV showed the Reavers and there was 847 00:59:27.159 --> 00:59:30.639 that great scene in the movie when he tells Mitch Vogel the little kid about 848 00:59:30.679 --> 00:59:35.840 how they're gonna steal their grandfather's car and go all the way to miss it 849 00:59:36.119 --> 00:59:39.559 to wherever it is they're going, and Mitch Wogel goes, I don't know, 850 00:59:39.840 --> 00:59:44.159 Grandpa ain't gonna like this, and Steve McQueen looks at the kid and 851 00:59:44.239 --> 00:59:46.480 he goes, I put a lot of story into what your grandpa said. 852 00:59:46.840 --> 00:59:51.599 I do. But if you ever want to reach your manhood, you got 853 00:59:51.719 --> 00:59:54.280 to say goodbye to the things you know and hello are the things you don't. 854 00:59:55.039 --> 00:59:59.039 I swear to God he was talking to me he was because he was 855 00:59:59.079 --> 01:00:04.159 probably looking at the cab anyway, and it was like some kind of disciple 856 01:00:04.480 --> 01:00:07.119 or like apostle or something. And then everything I've ever seen him in since 857 01:00:07.679 --> 01:00:10.840 may not affect me the same way, but he's never let me down. 858 01:00:10.960 --> 01:00:14.039 In terms of an actor. Now, I know everybody thinks of them, 859 01:00:14.039 --> 01:00:15.960 those who like him and remember and think of him as the King of cool, 860 01:00:16.440 --> 01:00:20.199 which to a certain extent he was. I won't take that away from 861 01:00:20.239 --> 01:00:22.840 especially in his most famous film, but that's not the Steve McQueen. I 862 01:00:23.039 --> 01:00:29.920 loved the Steve McQueen who reflects what he really was as a person and the 863 01:00:30.000 --> 01:00:32.079 way he grew up. Because I know he came from a really rough childhood 864 01:00:32.480 --> 01:00:35.639 from what i've read, and I've read a lot about him, as well 865 01:00:35.719 --> 01:00:40.880 as other film stars other than maybe Carrie Grant, Charlie Chapter and Marilyn Monroe. 866 01:00:42.360 --> 01:00:45.079 I think Steve McQueen probably had the worst childhood I've ever read about, 867 01:00:45.480 --> 01:00:49.320 and nowhere near I didn't have that kind of childhood, thank god, but 868 01:00:49.400 --> 01:00:53.360 it was pretty bad. And knowing that and seeing what he did with certain 869 01:00:53.480 --> 01:00:58.719 characters, I would always notice he's not playing He's playing the character yet, 870 01:00:58.960 --> 01:01:02.920 but he showed to play that character because it's in his life. He knows 871 01:01:04.000 --> 01:01:06.880 what that was like. He knows what it was like to be beaten, 872 01:01:07.280 --> 01:01:10.679 to be sent away, to be put in the prison camp which he was 873 01:01:10.760 --> 01:01:15.519 as a child, to be hungry on the streets, all that stuff, 874 01:01:15.880 --> 01:01:20.599 and it's in those performances help us for heroes. Maybe The Rain Must Fall, 875 01:01:21.039 --> 01:01:22.760 Soldier in the Rain, Love with the Property Stranger. A lot of 876 01:01:22.800 --> 01:01:25.719 the films that aren't as well known, those are, in my opinions, 877 01:01:25.800 --> 01:01:30.440 his best performances The Sand Pebbles, which he got an a combination for, 878 01:01:30.639 --> 01:01:35.480 but it's not really remembered as much, and that's unfortunate because that's why I'm 879 01:01:35.519 --> 01:01:39.039 a Steve McQueen fan. I love Burt Lancaster because he was just so bigger 880 01:01:39.039 --> 01:01:43.480 than life. And I got to meet him once that was not only meet 881 01:01:43.559 --> 01:01:46.039 him, but talked to him a monel for twenty minutes, and it was 882 01:01:46.679 --> 01:01:52.639 a movie bucket list moment. With James Cagney, it was because he was 883 01:01:52.679 --> 01:01:55.320 the little guy who always was tougher than anybody else in the movie. And 884 01:01:55.400 --> 01:02:00.519 I'm a little guy. And he had said in his contract that every movie 885 01:02:00.559 --> 01:02:02.559 he make made. He could never hit a guy who was the same side. 886 01:02:02.760 --> 01:02:05.920 You always had to hit a guy that was bigger than him. And 887 01:02:06.039 --> 01:02:10.119 I love that. That's so cool. And he was a firecracker. He 888 01:02:10.320 --> 01:02:15.480 was never in repose. He was always like this, And that's one of 889 01:02:15.519 --> 01:02:17.519 the things about most modern actors. I can't stand they put you to sleep. 890 01:02:17.960 --> 01:02:22.039 But I like actors who have energy, who have spark, and a 891 01:02:22.079 --> 01:02:25.320 lot of people probably wouldn't think that about Steve McQueen, but he moved in 892 01:02:25.360 --> 01:02:29.679 a movie. He had a grace and a style about him, and sometimes 893 01:02:29.719 --> 01:02:32.320 he moves so fast you didn't even notice it. Carl Malden said that about 894 01:02:32.440 --> 01:02:36.440 him. He said, there was this danger about Steve mcquin when he was 895 01:02:36.519 --> 01:02:38.239 on screen. You never knew if any given moment he was just going to 896 01:02:38.320 --> 01:02:42.920 explode, and when he didn't, he was still waiting for it. Things 897 01:02:43.000 --> 01:02:45.400 like that. So I'm going off way too much about movies I like. 898 01:02:45.519 --> 01:02:49.920 But I mentioned that thing about Steve McQueen because it looks like there's a very 899 01:02:49.960 --> 01:02:54.159 good chance I'm going to be able to write about Steve mccleen movie and would 900 01:02:54.199 --> 01:02:58.119 I hope it comes to pass. Twayne, Thank you so much for your 901 01:02:58.159 --> 01:03:00.599 time. This is so great talking with you. I'm I'm glad we can 902 01:03:00.679 --> 01:03:04.480 do this. Oh, thank you for being such a receptive audience. You've 903 01:03:04.480 --> 01:03:07.119 been a great hope. You let me babble on and gave me reason to 904 01:03:07.159 --> 01:03:07.400 babbylon I thank you for that