1 00:00:33,719 --> 00:00:36,439 What Up? What Up? What Up? Everybody? Welcome to another episode 2 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:40,200 of Let's Ask Paul. My name is Paul, and welcome to the podcast 3 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:46,679 where we answer all of your pressing electrical code related questions and of course other 4 00:00:46,759 --> 00:00:52,479 electrical topics as you deem fit to submit through our portal over at Paul Abernathy 5 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,200 dot com. That's right, if you've never been there before. It's a 6 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:00,240 free resource sponsored by Wicks where you can post questions to us for free. 7 00:01:00,359 --> 00:01:03,200 You just have to give your name, email address and post your question. 8 00:01:03,319 --> 00:01:07,359 Be very descriptive and let me know what code cycle you're talking about, and 9 00:01:07,439 --> 00:01:11,400 I will answer your question either in an email or, if selected, on 10 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:17,519 an upcoming podcast much like this one. All right, now, before we 11 00:01:17,519 --> 00:01:22,000 get started today's questions, because this question is pretty detailed question, I want 12 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:27,400 to tell you that we are sponsored by Electrical Code Academy and the latest course 13 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:34,439 releases are the Fast Tracks Basic and the Fast Tracks Enhanced. 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It's all available over there, So check it 40 00:03:28,879 --> 00:03:34,400 out over on our website if you want to look at some good stuff. 41 00:03:34,719 --> 00:03:38,199 All right, let's get into today's episode. So let me read this one. 42 00:03:38,199 --> 00:03:40,000 It's fairly long, but I will try to give us anopsis of it 43 00:03:40,039 --> 00:03:46,240 then break it down. So now I have replied to this gentleman and he 44 00:03:46,319 --> 00:03:49,039 did a follow up, so I'm going to kind of mesh in the follow 45 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:53,080 up and the reply here so we can kind of catch it all in one 46 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:54,639 here. So let me read it. Says Hi, Paul, thank you 47 00:03:54,680 --> 00:04:00,599 for the podcast. I love it. I regularly listen to your podcast while 48 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:05,560 I'm working code skills. My question today is about water bonding. Okay, 49 00:04:05,919 --> 00:04:12,000 me and my journeyman are currently working on an apartment building and the building is 50 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:15,520 big enough that there are two services, one at each end of the building. 51 00:04:15,599 --> 00:04:17,959 Okay, so two thirty dot two is obviously capacity. This is allowed 52 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:23,439 for two services on this building, So there you go. Each service has 53 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:27,959 two six hundred and ant disconnects. Each disconnect serves eight meters. Okay. 54 00:04:28,439 --> 00:04:33,720 However, there is only one riser, and that is where the water stubs 55 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:40,399 out. Stubouts are at the water bond. Okay, so he says riser. 56 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:44,639 I believe he clarified that in another email that he means that is the 57 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:47,639 room where the waterline comes into the building. Okay, so it's a common 58 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,839 riser comes into the building and then of course breaks off to the different units. 59 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:54,600 Okay, that's where your water comes in. All right, I got 60 00:04:54,639 --> 00:05:00,480 you. Let's see here, it says, I. You know, each 61 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:05,680 disconnect needs to be bonded to the water pipes. But we were wondering if 62 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:13,360 we could run for the service farther farthest from the pipes one oversized water bond 63 00:05:13,399 --> 00:05:19,160 wire and then use a split bolt in order to hit both disconnects and still 64 00:05:19,319 --> 00:05:23,600 run only one wire. Okay, First, thing. Remember, you're not 65 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:28,079 running a GEC, so there's a rule that's about being continuous that doesn't apply 66 00:05:28,199 --> 00:05:31,279 here. Okay. So you could bond and split bolt and whatever you want 67 00:05:31,319 --> 00:05:33,480 if you want to do that. Now I'm going to go a little deeper, 68 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,240 but again, we're not talking about anything in the code that says it 69 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:41,040 has to be continuous here. That is your GEC, and that's not what 70 00:05:41,079 --> 00:05:46,079 you're talking about. You're talking about bonding the waterline because in a subsequent email 71 00:05:46,399 --> 00:05:50,399 you said that no, the plumbing in the building or the water piping system 72 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:56,399 is non metallic like a PEX. So all you're talking about is where it 73 00:05:56,439 --> 00:05:59,519 comes into building. There must be a small piece of metal, okay, 74 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:02,279 And your local AHJ is trying to make you bond that. That's what I 75 00:06:02,319 --> 00:06:06,800 gather. Okay. So you want to run from each one of the disconnects 76 00:06:08,439 --> 00:06:12,160 service disconnects you want to run I guess there's four of them, to six 77 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,879 hundred amps at each end. You want to run those back all the way 78 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,319 back to this this pipe okay, or this piece of portion of riser that's 79 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:25,120 coming into building. That that is metal okay, that is obviously nowhere near 80 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:30,319 these services okay, all right, So it says, so you have any 81 00:06:30,399 --> 00:06:36,399 idea on how far the two disconnects from are from the order pipes? So 82 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:42,040 no, no, I don't. So it's about three hundred and sixty feet. 83 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:45,959 And that is why we are trying to figure out if we can only 84 00:06:46,079 --> 00:06:51,800 run one wire and then split bolt it to hit both disconnects. Let me 85 00:06:51,879 --> 00:06:57,680 know what your thoughts are. Is this allowed by code? I'm in Washington 86 00:06:57,759 --> 00:07:03,040 State and we just updated to the twenty twenty three NEEC. Thanks again. 87 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:09,079 Okay, So this is what it's telling me. So in a subsequent follow 88 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:13,279 up question to that, I ask a couple questions. Here's what I ask. 89 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:15,319 Okay, So I'm going to get into detail, but here's what I 90 00:07:15,399 --> 00:07:16,959 ask. Okay, I said. Okay, So before I can go very 91 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:21,360 deep in my reply, I have to ask a few questions. Number One, 92 00:07:21,399 --> 00:07:26,759 when you say water bond, is the water piping system in this building 93 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:30,360 all metallic or are you talking about the water piping as a gees that's a 94 00:07:30,399 --> 00:07:33,519 grounding electrode system, you know, ten feet in contact with earth. Now 95 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:39,000 he clarified and says, no, it's non metallic piping in the building. 96 00:07:39,079 --> 00:07:45,319 Okay, it's non metallic, so and the outside it's not the grounding electrode 97 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:47,000 system in the ground the ten feet or more. That's not what we're doing. 98 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,120 They have what's called a concrete and case electrode for this building, so 99 00:07:50,199 --> 00:07:55,160 that's not what that is. So this is just the portion of the riser 100 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:59,480 for the waterline that's coming up into this risor room. Is what they're doing. 101 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,079 That's all we're talking about. They're bonding. And so when I asked 102 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:07,360 that question, I also go on say, I asked because the application is 103 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:15,040 vastly different. If you're simply talking about bonding versus grounding and bonding or grounding 104 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:20,000 electrodes, it's totally truly different. Okay, Now, the advice that I 105 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,920 gave him and this one is that I said, now, and I'll show 106 00:08:22,959 --> 00:08:24,959 you the follow up. I said, Now, in this one, we're 107 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:30,319 talking about simply bonding the waterline. Then you have allowances in two fifty one 108 00:08:30,439 --> 00:08:35,080 zero four A one and there it says the water piping system, which I 109 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:39,879 will argue that that small piece of riser before it changes over to plastic everywhere 110 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:43,840 is not a water piping system. Okay, but I can't stop what the 111 00:08:45,039 --> 00:08:46,039 HJ. Is going to force you to do. So I'm just going to 112 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:48,480 say, I don't think that that's a water piping system. To me, 113 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,320 that's just an isolated component. But anyway, I could be wrong. I'm 114 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,519 not a plumbing guy. I'm just giving you my thoughts on this. But 115 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,759 if we're assuming that it's a order piping system and you got to bond, 116 00:09:01,759 --> 00:09:05,080 it sounds like that's what your plan is anyway. So here's what it says. 117 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:09,600 It says the metal water piping shall be bonded as required in two fifty 118 00:09:09,639 --> 00:09:11,519 dot one zero four, A one, A two, or A three. 119 00:09:13,159 --> 00:09:16,039 Okay, all right, so A one. Let's read this real quick, 120 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:20,320 because this is the most important part. It says general. It says water 121 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:24,840 pipe the metal water piping systems, And I can argue that's not what you 122 00:09:24,919 --> 00:09:28,720 have. But anyway installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be 123 00:09:28,799 --> 00:09:33,919 bonded to any of the following. Okay, So I can take that water 124 00:09:35,039 --> 00:09:39,519 piping system and bond It sounds like this is a common riser that is common 125 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:43,879 to all units. Okay, even though there's two services, this water isoks 126 00:09:43,879 --> 00:09:46,879 like one water line coming in. Okay, I can bond that to Number 127 00:09:46,879 --> 00:09:52,799 one service equipment enclosures. That sounds like what you want to do. Number 128 00:09:52,799 --> 00:10:00,200 two ground a conductor at the service okay. Number three grounding electrode conductor if 129 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:05,679 it's sufficiently sized. And here's the most important one. Number four one or 130 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:11,679 more grounding electrodes used. If the grounding electrode conductor or bonding jumper to the 131 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:16,559 grounding electrode is of sufficient size. Okay, So in that scenario, if 132 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:22,240 you're looking in bonding in this case two fifty one zero two C one, 133 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:26,519 if it might save you, if you don't want to get into the size 134 00:10:26,519 --> 00:10:30,840 of the services and those conductors and all that that's required by two fifty one 135 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:35,519 zero two C one, then it reminds you that you could go and it's 136 00:10:35,519 --> 00:10:39,799 not required to be larger than a three odd copper. So theoretically you could 137 00:10:39,879 --> 00:10:43,240 go from that water pipe fitting rise or whatever you want to call it, 138 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,919 to the concrete and case electrode, because you did tell me that's the electrode 139 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:52,320 you're using, and that's it. That's it. You're not taking it to 140 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:56,399 the service equipment, you're not taking it to the grounding conductor. You're using 141 00:10:56,480 --> 00:11:00,279 item number four and you're taking it to the grounding electrodes that are you used. 142 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:05,919 So if you have that one connection point to that concrete case electrode that 143 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,480 you're using, then all you'd have to do is route from that riser that 144 00:11:09,639 --> 00:11:15,440 small portion that is metal that you're talking about in a riser room, and 145 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:20,200 that's again a water riser terminology. Then you would take it from there back 146 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:22,799 to the grounding electrodes and be done with it. I wouldn't loop all this 147 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:28,600 stuff together, okay, So run a three hot copper, be done with 148 00:11:28,639 --> 00:11:33,440 it. Okay. That would be my opinion on that. So then we 149 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:39,039 go to some some subsequent follow ups here that I want to read. Okay, 150 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:41,879 so this is a follow up. So that was my thought process. 151 00:11:41,919 --> 00:11:43,399 So here's what he says. Thank you for getting back to me so soon, 152 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,919 he says, to answer your first question, No, the water piping 153 00:11:48,039 --> 00:11:52,399 for the building is just pecks. It's not metallic. Okay. So the 154 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:58,440 water piping system is not metal. Okay, that's a winner. Says, 155 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:05,279 However, they want us to bond the water meter plumbing casing. That is 156 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:07,480 the only metallic part. Okay, so you tell me they want it, 157 00:12:07,519 --> 00:12:09,720 so there's no way around it. This is what they want, and so 158 00:12:09,799 --> 00:12:13,639 it seems like you'd be pulling more teeth to try to convince them otherwise that 159 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:18,399 that's not really a water piping system. So bond it fine. So in 160 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:22,799 doing that, they want you to do that, it says, and not 161 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:28,360 h So they says they want us to bond the main water piping casing that 162 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:33,759 is the only metallic part, and not as a gees since we have already 163 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:37,480 ran our gees, which is the concrete case rebar okay, makes sense. 164 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:41,799 He also says, when we say riser, we're referring to the room that 165 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:46,399 we contain the water casing. That is what we call it. So we 166 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:48,919 just use that lingo. Okay, yeah, I get it. So I 167 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:54,200 get it. So you have one riser one coming in, waterline coming in 168 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:56,759 with you know, the main coming in for the water, and then of 169 00:12:56,759 --> 00:12:58,919 course it's going to branch off to the different units. They're only part that's 170 00:13:00,039 --> 00:13:01,080 metal is the part that's coming in, and they want you to bond it 171 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:03,879 for some reason. They want you to bond it like they think that it's 172 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:09,279 likely to become energized for some reason. Okay, Obviously there's no arguing with 173 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:13,200 this HJ. They just demanded that you bond it. You could argue to 174 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,159 you're blue in the face, but it seems to me you just want to 175 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,559 get this thing done and move on. So personally, without getting into any 176 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:22,519 calculation, as I said before, I just take a three copper and I 177 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:26,519 would run that sucker from the connection onto the concrete case electrode all the way 178 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:31,279 over to a clamp that clamps onto the piping for this riser where it's metal, 179 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:35,200 and be done with it. You get me, okay, So you 180 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:39,759 also go on to give me a little more information, says, so there's 181 00:13:39,799 --> 00:13:43,279 four main disconnects in total, meaning four services, okay, right, two 182 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:48,320 six hundreds at each end. Okay, I got it. And each one 183 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:54,720 of those have the gees to the concrete and case electrode, and a water 184 00:13:54,840 --> 00:14:01,159 bond connection to the plumbing casing that sticks out through the concrete. Okay, 185 00:14:01,279 --> 00:14:05,840 all right, I'm not sure on that one that it's kind of just all 186 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:11,720 bundled together. It says the two main disconnects on each side of the building, 187 00:14:11,159 --> 00:14:16,600 with each disconnect controlling eight meter cans. My question was mainly wondering if 188 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:22,919 we have to run a continuous run to each disconnect or if we're the two 189 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:28,000 farthest ones from the water casing, if we can run one five hundred kc 190 00:14:28,159 --> 00:14:33,679 mil and hit both disconnects using a split bolt. Okay, all right, 191 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:35,360 so I'm gonna save you a bunch of money here, no reason to one 192 00:14:35,399 --> 00:14:41,919 one five hundred. Again, this is not the grounding electrode system you're running. 193 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:46,840 You're going to this is not the electrode in the earth. You're gonna 194 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:48,799 be using two fifty one zero two C one And it says that it never 195 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:52,720 has to be larger than a three hot, So if you don't want to 196 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:54,639 do the math, you don't want to look at the size of the conductors 197 00:14:54,639 --> 00:14:58,840 that are supplying this, and worst case scenario, just run a three hot 198 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,559 and you only have to run it from the rebar connection one time. Doesn't 199 00:15:03,559 --> 00:15:07,159 matter if the services on each side of the building, because they're using the 200 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,279 same electrode. You get me. It's the same concrete in case electrode being 201 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:15,000 used in this building. So all you're going to do is go from the 202 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,600 rebar with a three out because you don't want to do the math, run 203 00:15:18,639 --> 00:15:22,000 for the threeacht all the way up to the riser. Make that connection, 204 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:26,600 it states very clearly in two fifty one zero two C one, And you 205 00:15:26,639 --> 00:15:31,440 can show your city official that never has to be larger than Threeat you're done, 206 00:15:31,559 --> 00:15:35,399 you walk away by the being by the boom. Okay, those are 207 00:15:35,399 --> 00:15:39,960 my opinions based on the best way I can read this. Again, I 208 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:46,879 could argue that that is certainly not the water piping system. Uh. You 209 00:15:46,879 --> 00:15:48,759 know, when I read the code and it tells me in two fifty one 210 00:15:48,879 --> 00:15:52,759 zero four says the metal water piping system. You know, I don't know 211 00:15:52,799 --> 00:15:58,879 that that one little piece is the water piping system, but they're demanding it. 212 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:03,000 And since they demand it, all I'm doing is using the allowance in 213 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:07,159 two fifty one zero four A one item number four, and I'm simply gonna 214 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:12,200 run it from the electrode, and I'm going to run it from the electrode 215 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,519 all the way over to the riser. I'm gonna make it three. Ought 216 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:19,279 be done with it, copper, and UH move on you with me? 217 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:23,679 All right? Hopefully that answers your question, my friend. And if there's 218 00:16:23,679 --> 00:16:27,200 any additional update you want to add, or any clarification, people out there 219 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,919 may agree to disagree. That's okay. You can disagree. You can say 220 00:16:30,919 --> 00:16:33,639 I'm full of shit all you want. I really don't care because, guess 221 00:16:33,679 --> 00:16:37,000 what, Tomorrow, I'm still going to be here till next time, folks. 222 00:16:37,039 --> 00:17:06,200 Stay safe, God bless mass nothing