What Up? What Up? What Up? Everybody? Welcome to another episode
of Let's Ask Paul. My name is Paul, and welcome to the podcast
where we answer all of your pressing electrical code related questions and of course other
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All right, let's get into today's episode. So let me read this one.
It's fairly long, but I will try to give us anopsis of it
then break it down. So now I have replied to this gentleman and he
did a follow up, so I'm going to kind of mesh in the follow
up and the reply here so we can kind of catch it all in one
here. So let me read it. Says Hi, Paul, thank you
for the podcast. I love it. I regularly listen to your podcast while
I'm working code skills. My question today is about water bonding. Okay,
me and my journeyman are currently working on an apartment building and the building is
big enough that there are two services, one at each end of the building.
Okay, so two thirty dot two is obviously capacity. This is allowed
for two services on this building, So there you go. Each service has
two six hundred and ant disconnects. Each disconnect serves eight meters. Okay.
However, there is only one riser, and that is where the water stubs
out. Stubouts are at the water bond. Okay, so he says riser.
I believe he clarified that in another email that he means that is the
room where the waterline comes into the building. Okay, so it's a common
riser comes into the building and then of course breaks off to the different units.
Okay, that's where your water comes in. All right, I got
you. Let's see here, it says, I. You know, each
disconnect needs to be bonded to the water pipes. But we were wondering if
we could run for the service farther farthest from the pipes one oversized water bond
wire and then use a split bolt in order to hit both disconnects and still
run only one wire. Okay, First, thing. Remember, you're not
running a GEC, so there's a rule that's about being continuous that doesn't apply
here. Okay. So you could bond and split bolt and whatever you want
if you want to do that. Now I'm going to go a little deeper,
but again, we're not talking about anything in the code that says it
has to be continuous here. That is your GEC, and that's not what
you're talking about. You're talking about bonding the waterline because in a subsequent email
you said that no, the plumbing in the building or the water piping system
is non metallic like a PEX. So all you're talking about is where it
comes into building. There must be a small piece of metal, okay,
And your local AHJ is trying to make you bond that. That's what I
gather. Okay. So you want to run from each one of the disconnects
service disconnects you want to run I guess there's four of them, to six
hundred amps at each end. You want to run those back all the way
back to this this pipe okay, or this piece of portion of riser that's
coming into building. That that is metal okay, that is obviously nowhere near
these services okay, all right, So it says, so you have any
idea on how far the two disconnects from are from the order pipes? So
no, no, I don't. So it's about three hundred and sixty feet.
And that is why we are trying to figure out if we can only
run one wire and then split bolt it to hit both disconnects. Let me
know what your thoughts are. Is this allowed by code? I'm in Washington
State and we just updated to the twenty twenty three NEEC. Thanks again.
Okay, So this is what it's telling me. So in a subsequent follow
up question to that, I ask a couple questions. Here's what I ask.
Okay, So I'm going to get into detail, but here's what I
ask. Okay, I said. Okay, So before I can go very
deep in my reply, I have to ask a few questions. Number One,
when you say water bond, is the water piping system in this building
all metallic or are you talking about the water piping as a gees that's a
grounding electrode system, you know, ten feet in contact with earth. Now
he clarified and says, no, it's non metallic piping in the building.
Okay, it's non metallic, so and the outside it's not the grounding electrode
system in the ground the ten feet or more. That's not what we're doing.
They have what's called a concrete and case electrode for this building, so
that's not what that is. So this is just the portion of the riser
for the waterline that's coming up into this risor room. Is what they're doing.
That's all we're talking about. They're bonding. And so when I asked
that question, I also go on say, I asked because the application is
vastly different. If you're simply talking about bonding versus grounding and bonding or grounding
electrodes, it's totally truly different. Okay, Now, the advice that I
gave him and this one is that I said, now, and I'll show
you the follow up. I said, Now, in this one, we're
talking about simply bonding the waterline. Then you have allowances in two fifty one
zero four A one and there it says the water piping system, which I
will argue that that small piece of riser before it changes over to plastic everywhere
is not a water piping system. Okay, but I can't stop what the
HJ. Is going to force you to do. So I'm just going to
say, I don't think that that's a water piping system. To me,
that's just an isolated component. But anyway, I could be wrong. I'm
not a plumbing guy. I'm just giving you my thoughts on this. But
if we're assuming that it's a order piping system and you got to bond,
it sounds like that's what your plan is anyway. So here's what it says.
It says the metal water piping shall be bonded as required in two fifty
dot one zero four, A one, A two, or A three.
Okay, all right, so A one. Let's read this real quick,
because this is the most important part. It says general. It says water
pipe the metal water piping systems, And I can argue that's not what you
have. But anyway installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be
bonded to any of the following. Okay, So I can take that water
piping system and bond It sounds like this is a common riser that is common
to all units. Okay, even though there's two services, this water isoks
like one water line coming in. Okay, I can bond that to Number
one service equipment enclosures. That sounds like what you want to do. Number
two ground a conductor at the service okay. Number three grounding electrode conductor if
it's sufficiently sized. And here's the most important one. Number four one or
more grounding electrodes used. If the grounding electrode conductor or bonding jumper to the
grounding electrode is of sufficient size. Okay, So in that scenario, if
you're looking in bonding in this case two fifty one zero two C one,
if it might save you, if you don't want to get into the size
of the services and those conductors and all that that's required by two fifty one
zero two C one, then it reminds you that you could go and it's
not required to be larger than a three odd copper. So theoretically you could
go from that water pipe fitting rise or whatever you want to call it,
to the concrete and case electrode, because you did tell me that's the electrode
you're using, and that's it. That's it. You're not taking it to
the service equipment, you're not taking it to the grounding conductor. You're using
item number four and you're taking it to the grounding electrodes that are you used.
So if you have that one connection point to that concrete case electrode that
you're using, then all you'd have to do is route from that riser that
small portion that is metal that you're talking about in a riser room, and
that's again a water riser terminology. Then you would take it from there back
to the grounding electrodes and be done with it. I wouldn't loop all this
stuff together, okay, So run a three hot copper, be done with
it. Okay. That would be my opinion on that. So then we
go to some some subsequent follow ups here that I want to read. Okay,
so this is a follow up. So that was my thought process.
So here's what he says. Thank you for getting back to me so soon,
he says, to answer your first question, No, the water piping
for the building is just pecks. It's not metallic. Okay. So the
water piping system is not metal. Okay, that's a winner. Says,
However, they want us to bond the water meter plumbing casing. That is
the only metallic part. Okay, so you tell me they want it,
so there's no way around it. This is what they want, and so
it seems like you'd be pulling more teeth to try to convince them otherwise that
that's not really a water piping system. So bond it fine. So in
doing that, they want you to do that, it says, and not
h So they says they want us to bond the main water piping casing that
is the only metallic part, and not as a gees since we have already
ran our gees, which is the concrete case rebar okay, makes sense.
He also says, when we say riser, we're referring to the room that
we contain the water casing. That is what we call it. So we
just use that lingo. Okay, yeah, I get it. So I
get it. So you have one riser one coming in, waterline coming in
with you know, the main coming in for the water, and then of
course it's going to branch off to the different units. They're only part that's
metal is the part that's coming in, and they want you to bond it
for some reason. They want you to bond it like they think that it's
likely to become energized for some reason. Okay, Obviously there's no arguing with
this HJ. They just demanded that you bond it. You could argue to
you're blue in the face, but it seems to me you just want to
get this thing done and move on. So personally, without getting into any
calculation, as I said before, I just take a three copper and I
would run that sucker from the connection onto the concrete case electrode all the way
over to a clamp that clamps onto the piping for this riser where it's metal,
and be done with it. You get me, okay, So you
also go on to give me a little more information, says, so there's
four main disconnects in total, meaning four services, okay, right, two
six hundreds at each end. Okay, I got it. And each one
of those have the gees to the concrete and case electrode, and a water
bond connection to the plumbing casing that sticks out through the concrete. Okay,
all right, I'm not sure on that one that it's kind of just all
bundled together. It says the two main disconnects on each side of the building,
with each disconnect controlling eight meter cans. My question was mainly wondering if
we have to run a continuous run to each disconnect or if we're the two
farthest ones from the water casing, if we can run one five hundred kc
mil and hit both disconnects using a split bolt. Okay, all right,
so I'm gonna save you a bunch of money here, no reason to one
one five hundred. Again, this is not the grounding electrode system you're running.
You're going to this is not the electrode in the earth. You're gonna
be using two fifty one zero two C one And it says that it never
has to be larger than a three hot, So if you don't want to
do the math, you don't want to look at the size of the conductors
that are supplying this, and worst case scenario, just run a three hot
and you only have to run it from the rebar connection one time. Doesn't
matter if the services on each side of the building, because they're using the
same electrode. You get me. It's the same concrete in case electrode being
used in this building. So all you're going to do is go from the
rebar with a three out because you don't want to do the math, run
for the threeacht all the way up to the riser. Make that connection,
it states very clearly in two fifty one zero two C one, And you
can show your city official that never has to be larger than Threeat you're done,
you walk away by the being by the boom. Okay, those are
my opinions based on the best way I can read this. Again, I
could argue that that is certainly not the water piping system. Uh. You
know, when I read the code and it tells me in two fifty one
zero four says the metal water piping system. You know, I don't know
that that one little piece is the water piping system, but they're demanding it.
And since they demand it, all I'm doing is using the allowance in
two fifty one zero four A one item number four, and I'm simply gonna
run it from the electrode, and I'm going to run it from the electrode
all the way over to the riser. I'm gonna make it three. Ought
be done with it, copper, and UH move on you with me?
All right? Hopefully that answers your question, my friend. And if there's
any additional update you want to add, or any clarification, people out there
may agree to disagree. That's okay. You can disagree. You can say
I'm full of shit all you want. I really don't care because, guess
what, Tomorrow, I'm still going to be here till next time, folks.
Stay safe, God bless mass nothing