1
00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:20,280
Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast
where we watch blockbuster movies and psychoanalyze them.

2
00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:23,399
My name is Bernie Brownfield and I'm
a child therapist and I'm joined by

3
00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,879
Ben Stover, individual therapist, Hannah
Espinoza, marriage and family therapists. We're

4
00:00:27,879 --> 00:00:32,079
all licensed clinical professional counselors also known
as therapists who practice out of Chicago.

5
00:00:32,399 --> 00:00:36,520
Even though we are licensed mental health
professionals, this podcast is purely for entertainment

6
00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:40,640
purposes and to fulfill our love of
dissecting pop culture in all forms. Please

7
00:00:40,679 --> 00:00:44,280
remember that, even though we are
all licensed therapists, we aren't your therapist.

8
00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,520
If you are struggling with mental health
symptoms, please find a local mental

9
00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:52,039
health provider. Welcome to Popcorn Psychology. Today we are going to be discussing

10
00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:58,280
the now second most awarded film of
all time and one of my absolute favorites,

11
00:00:58,399 --> 00:01:00,880
The Return of the Key. I
am super excited to do this,

12
00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,200
But before we talk anymore about that, I want to introduce our special guests,

13
00:01:04,239 --> 00:01:10,040
who you may recognize from our Two
Towers episode. We have the wonderful

14
00:01:10,159 --> 00:01:12,799
Justine Maston with us. Justine,
please tell our listeners all about yourself.

15
00:01:12,879 --> 00:01:17,680
Hello. Thanks for having me back. I kind of gave you no choice

16
00:01:17,799 --> 00:01:19,840
last time. I was like,
I'm coming back. I will find out

17
00:01:19,879 --> 00:01:23,879
when you're recording this and I will
sneak into your studio. My name is

18
00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:29,319
Justine Maston. I am a licensed
marriage and family therapist and a licensed alcohol

19
00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:33,359
and drug counselor. I'm also an
author, an educator, and a podcaster.

20
00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:38,359
I have too many jobs. I'm
best known as the co author of

21
00:01:38,359 --> 00:01:42,799
a book called Starship Therapies, Using
Therapeutic fan Fiction to Rewrite Your Life,

22
00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,840
and I also have a new book
coming out in July called The Grieving Therapist,

23
00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,280
caring for yourself and your clients when
it feels like the end of the

24
00:01:49,319 --> 00:01:53,480
world. And if you friends at
home are a healer of any kind,

25
00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:59,519
and if you love Lord of the
Rings and trudging through the wilderness, you

26
00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:06,120
will of The Grieving Therapist, which
is a magical, realistic journey to map

27
00:02:06,319 --> 00:02:09,840
the realms of grief that we have
all experienced over the time in our careers,

28
00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:15,400
which I am very excited to read
because we all certainly have. Anybody

29
00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:19,360
who's ever been a healer has gone
through this grief, and I think it's

30
00:02:19,599 --> 00:02:22,360
a really important book and I'm really
glad you wrote it. Yeah, thank

31
00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,199
you. It's available for presale and
presales matter, So friends, get yourself

32
00:02:25,199 --> 00:02:30,319
a future gift and press add to
Kurt wherever books are sold. I love

33
00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:34,599
doing that because I have very poor
object permanence. So when I pre order

34
00:02:34,719 --> 00:02:37,520
something, it is like a gift
I give my future self because I will

35
00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:40,280
straight up forget that I did it
until it just arrives one day for me,

36
00:02:40,719 --> 00:02:45,719
right. I encourage people to do
that. It's like Dale Cooper from

37
00:02:45,719 --> 00:02:47,479
Twin Peaks. Every day, once
a day, give yourself a gift.

38
00:02:47,759 --> 00:02:51,439
Yes, says, don't plan it, but you know what you planned it

39
00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:53,919
months ago. See it in Planet
today. The gift is here now.

40
00:02:55,360 --> 00:03:01,840
I can't think of that man without
hearing him say ohoi and then seeing the

41
00:03:02,479 --> 00:03:07,319
smiling eyes versus the smiling face versus
the grimacing eyes from when his guest spot

42
00:03:07,319 --> 00:03:12,159
on I met your mother? Who
loved it? Annie Who? So with

43
00:03:12,719 --> 00:03:19,400
our episode today, we will be
discussing having chosen family and relationships, purpose

44
00:03:19,479 --> 00:03:24,280
and heroism when you are facing the
diarist of odds, and also taking a

45
00:03:24,319 --> 00:03:29,520
look at the wounds that won't heal
and how we change. Also be as

46
00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:34,199
always discussing treatment and final thoughts.
So for those of you that haven't watched

47
00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:38,919
or don't know the Return of the
King, this is the conclusion of the

48
00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:44,360
Lord of the Rings saga, in
which time we see Rigorn ascend to the

49
00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,599
throne of men by becoming King of
Gondora and leaving up to his name getting

50
00:03:47,639 --> 00:03:52,719
his sword back. We also see
the destruction of the Ring, the destruction

51
00:03:52,759 --> 00:03:57,560
of Gallum, the end of Mordor, and the end of Sauron, but

52
00:03:57,719 --> 00:04:00,879
also ignore that the Shire got and
go back to a really nice, beautiful

53
00:04:00,919 --> 00:04:04,240
place since the movie was already too
long and too full of stuff, but

54
00:04:05,199 --> 00:04:10,800
we go on in a very,
very detailed journey with people trying to figure

55
00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:15,479
out who they are when all the
chips are down and all the odds are

56
00:04:15,479 --> 00:04:17,560
against you, and who you're going
to be and who you're going to do

57
00:04:17,639 --> 00:04:23,920
it for and with and watching that
journey I think is one of the best

58
00:04:23,959 --> 00:04:27,079
pieces of cinema that's ever existed,
and the fact that it got so many

59
00:04:27,079 --> 00:04:30,600
awards and continues to hold up,
even getting a theatrical release last week again

60
00:04:30,639 --> 00:04:33,759
for its twentieth anniversary, which is
a number we will not mention again because

61
00:04:33,759 --> 00:04:38,639
it makes me feel old. A
quick rundown of the plot of the movie.

62
00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:43,560
We find everybody in great deals of
trouble. They resolve it by going

63
00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,160
through some of the most epic battles
that have ever been written or filmed,

64
00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:53,839
and dealing with both the worst parts
of themselves, humanity and other living creatures.

65
00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,759
And what it looks like to come
out victorious and what the cost of

66
00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,839
that is on those who are closest
to the hardest moment are some of the

67
00:05:00,879 --> 00:05:04,319
epic themes of this film. And
I will say this now so that I

68
00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:09,040
don't say it one hundred times later. Anybody who thinks that this story is

69
00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:14,439
not an allegory for coming home from
war Tolkien, I's never talked to anybody

70
00:05:14,519 --> 00:05:16,079
didn't come home from war. But
I am excited for us to get into

71
00:05:16,079 --> 00:05:19,439
this movie. So let's talk about
the chosen family and relationships we see and

72
00:05:19,439 --> 00:05:24,199
how that plays into what our characters
do throughout the course of this journey.

73
00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,600
So I think that I know I'm
the person always comes in and I have

74
00:05:28,639 --> 00:05:30,800
no real emotional attachment to Lord of
the Ring, So I just want to

75
00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,040
identify that straight up as anyone who
listens who might not be as immersed into

76
00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,920
the story, but I would agree. Like something I notice while watching this

77
00:05:36,959 --> 00:05:43,959
movie the whole time is so much
of it centers around friendships, both in

78
00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:48,439
really positive ways and also not so
positive ways, which I know is how

79
00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:54,560
chosen families can arise. Is when
we don't get what we need from the

80
00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,759
people who are like supposed to take
care of us, we have to go

81
00:05:57,879 --> 00:06:00,319
find the people that take care of
us. And a lot of I mean,

82
00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:04,040
one of the things we see right
away is like Dena Thor and yes

83
00:06:04,199 --> 00:06:11,399
and Pharaomere Farremere yes two for two
guys, And I think that's a classic

84
00:06:11,439 --> 00:06:15,319
example of trying to win over someone
who can't give you what they need.

85
00:06:15,639 --> 00:06:20,480
And mean, it really bummed me
out because right away you see that Farremere

86
00:06:20,519 --> 00:06:25,519
comes into a setting in which he
knows his dad is going to be disappointed,

87
00:06:26,199 --> 00:06:28,720
that he's gonna that he's the one
that made it. And then I

88
00:06:28,759 --> 00:06:30,800
think this is a theme you've seen
a lot of media or movies, which

89
00:06:30,879 --> 00:06:34,720
is the wrong quote unquote the wrong
kid died, and then how do you

90
00:06:35,199 --> 00:06:40,360
internalize that or not internalize that one
that occurs? Unfortunately in this situation,

91
00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:46,319
he does internalize this almost to his
literal death yep, and watching him know

92
00:06:46,759 --> 00:06:51,079
he's writing into his death while Denathor
has one of the most disgusting meals I've

93
00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:58,560
ever seen. It's just such powerful
imagery that you see, I guess you

94
00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:02,240
don't often see in the movies where
the wrong kid dying is actually told by

95
00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:08,040
the parent straight up to his face. That's true. I do wish that,

96
00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:15,600
And it was heartbreaking and watching Barremere
melt and then harden in seconds,

97
00:07:15,879 --> 00:07:19,959
but still keep that look of sadness
that he knew he would never be enough,

98
00:07:20,519 --> 00:07:25,759
and also because of that his father
was ordering all of these men to

99
00:07:25,879 --> 00:07:29,839
their death, and that he would
have to lead them and even then would

100
00:07:29,839 --> 00:07:31,319
not be enough. I think it
was some of the best facial acting I've

101
00:07:31,319 --> 00:07:34,000
seen in a long time. I
just wanted to jump on something Britney said

102
00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,399
before we get too far away from
it, because Britney, something you were

103
00:07:36,399 --> 00:07:42,439
talking about was we gravitate towards chosen
family to get something we didn't get in

104
00:07:42,519 --> 00:07:46,199
our family. And yes, we
absolutely do that, and it can be

105
00:07:46,279 --> 00:07:51,959
life saving. And sometimes we gravitate
towards that which feels familiar, even when

106
00:07:53,279 --> 00:07:56,680
it doesn't serve us, and even
when it harms us. So sometimes we

107
00:07:56,759 --> 00:08:03,120
form chosen family that repeats patterns from
our family of origin. And I think

108
00:08:03,319 --> 00:08:09,720
the whole fellowship managed to escape that. But I do wonder. I wonder

109
00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:15,519
about Bormir because he was so and
I know we don't have Boorimere in this

110
00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:20,800
movie, but he bristled so much
against Rigorn, and I wonder if that

111
00:08:20,879 --> 00:08:26,519
brought up some stuff for him about
being either a big brother or the eldest

112
00:08:26,519 --> 00:08:30,720
son or something. There was some
vibe there. I feel like that was

113
00:08:30,759 --> 00:08:35,120
coming from family of origin. I
think looking at how he might be repeating

114
00:08:35,159 --> 00:08:41,320
you see dennethor talk about not wanting
to give control of the city to someone

115
00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:46,679
who had abandoned it when his family
had been there being the stewards while sitting

116
00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:50,000
at the foot of the throne instead
of ascending to it. And I think

117
00:08:50,039 --> 00:08:52,759
Borimere would have likely shared that because
Bormere had such a sense of honor and

118
00:08:52,879 --> 00:08:58,039
purpose in being the steward of Gondor
that being seen for that was something he

119
00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,320
could never have. So not only
could his dad never be seen as a

120
00:09:01,399 --> 00:09:05,399
king, Borimere would never be seen
as an heir to a throne, just

121
00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:09,840
as Steward while standing next to someone
who would be handed it the second he

122
00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:16,840
showed up, and he'd been actively
caliventing in the woods to neglect that for

123
00:09:16,879 --> 00:09:22,799
eighty seven years. A hot old
man seven years old. You reach look

124
00:09:22,879 --> 00:09:28,600
this good, you will not it. Also mean this a great point you

125
00:09:28,639 --> 00:09:31,120
bring up, because it also like
when we talk about repeating patterns with that

126
00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:37,159
you bring up like borne Mere and
airborne, I mean typically apparent like that

127
00:09:37,279 --> 00:09:41,080
also breeds competition, whether they mean
to or not, probably means too.

128
00:09:41,639 --> 00:09:43,559
So I think something a common theme
I was noting for this whole movie,

129
00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,960
which is an align with this a
little bit, but hopes not to tangential

130
00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:52,320
is going above and beyond to prove
your value, like at your own detriment,

131
00:09:52,399 --> 00:09:58,879
possible death. And so I wonder
with born Mere he was recreating that

132
00:09:58,919 --> 00:10:01,679
also relationship with Eric gorn Of.
I can't be in like brotherhood. I

133
00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:07,759
have to if well, brotherhood equals
competition. So anyone that rises up that's

134
00:10:07,799 --> 00:10:11,320
similar to me in any way or
has similar stature, I have to defeat.

135
00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:16,480
And that is something that really toxic
parents do. I think we're seeing

136
00:10:16,519 --> 00:10:20,879
us a lot now in the show
Succession, when a parent is toxic in

137
00:10:20,919 --> 00:10:26,000
that way, they don't only ruin
their relationship to their kids, but also

138
00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:30,679
their kid's ability to relate to each
other. So I wouldn't be surprised if

139
00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:35,080
the Paramere and Boromir's relationship with each
other was very competitive, even if they

140
00:10:35,279 --> 00:10:39,360
tried it to not be. And
so then of course, when you come

141
00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,679
into a situation like Boromere did with
Aerogorn, it's like, how can you

142
00:10:41,799 --> 00:10:48,600
not immediately go to that competitive state
or just antagonistic where you can't really be

143
00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:52,200
comfortable getting close to someone, because
what is it to be vulnerable? You

144
00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,240
can't if you're vulnerable, your guards
down, all that kind of stuff.

145
00:10:56,559 --> 00:11:00,559
Because what I do remember about Boromere
is that by the end he was really

146
00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,600
wanting to be a part of the
group, like the Chosen family part and

147
00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:05,720
he's like the little ones or whatever
he said, and I was like,

148
00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:07,720
oh, so cute, and he
like defended them right to like his death,

149
00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:11,480
and so I think that's what's the
shame. And I think you see

150
00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:15,200
that in Faremire as well, Like
someone who wants to be good, who

151
00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:20,080
wants to be a hero, who
wants to be pleasing to the people that

152
00:11:20,159 --> 00:11:26,960
they care about and unfortunately the person
that they are aspiring to please is unpleasable,

153
00:11:28,039 --> 00:11:31,960
and there's never all. It's a
cup of holes in the bottom,

154
00:11:31,039 --> 00:11:35,759
like you're never gonna get what you
need from there, But you can't quite

155
00:11:35,799 --> 00:11:41,840
stop unless you do some intense individual
work acknowledging that and then disentangling from that,

156
00:11:43,159 --> 00:11:46,159
and then, like we're talking about, find other ways to get that

157
00:11:46,279 --> 00:11:50,519
need met. That is actually a
positive place to get that need met,

158
00:11:52,159 --> 00:11:56,360
right, And we can learn those
lessons from choosing people who are like our

159
00:11:56,399 --> 00:12:01,039
family of origin, you know.
Using this example, I mean we gravitated

160
00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:07,240
towards that which felt familiar, which
is antagonism. But over time and learning

161
00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:11,080
and working and being together and doing
things differently, there was growth. So

162
00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:18,679
even when homeostasis, our need for
things to feel familiar can lead to change

163
00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:24,799
if we're doing it in a different
circumstance. And you can find strength in

164
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:31,120
that in realizing you already have the
skills necessary to operate your life, and

165
00:12:31,159 --> 00:12:35,879
you can apply the things you already
know to new circumstances in a new way

166
00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:41,919
and feel mastery over the things that
we very commonly find as therapist people don't

167
00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:46,639
think they have enough of filling the
blank skill to live their life in a

168
00:12:46,639 --> 00:12:50,559
different way or be successful in different
settings. And they get very anxious when

169
00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:54,759
they encounter new situations without realizing,
No, the old skills come with you.

170
00:12:54,879 --> 00:12:58,840
The old skills come with you.
They just won't feel maladaptive when the

171
00:12:58,879 --> 00:13:07,840
situation is no longer destructive. Some
of my least favorite words maladaptive and destructive.

172
00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,440
I think you have to explain that
now, Oh, I mean,

173
00:13:11,519 --> 00:13:16,840
as a predominantly narrative therapist, language
is so important. Yes, And the

174
00:13:16,919 --> 00:13:24,120
language of maladaptive assumes that there is
almost a morality to our choices, and

175
00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:28,600
so I prefer not to use that
kind of language with my clients. It's

176
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,559
it doesn't mean other people can't use
it. You know, your mileage may

177
00:13:31,639 --> 00:13:35,519
vary, but it's not language I
would use with my clients. What do

178
00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:39,279
you use instead? That seems like
these these behaviors aren't serving you? Okay?

179
00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:43,399
What happens when you do that?
This thing? Do you like it

180
00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,720
when that happens? No? Interesting? What do you think about that?

181
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,759
I'd think to use them. I
don't use those usually towards my clients.

182
00:13:48,759 --> 00:13:52,120
So using mortars like you're in a
situation, I agree on that notion for

183
00:13:52,159 --> 00:13:56,759
sure. I don't. I don't
like shaming people for responding to a situation

184
00:13:56,759 --> 00:14:00,159
in the best way you could and
making sure that they see it, but

185
00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:05,080
then understanding other relationships can be But
yeah, I think that's important, like

186
00:14:05,159 --> 00:14:13,320
how we empower other people we're working
with constantly to realize that just because things

187
00:14:13,399 --> 00:14:18,279
happen in a certain way doesn't mean
that you are now bad. This is

188
00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:24,600
making me think of Gandalf. Yeah, yeah, I mean he brought this

189
00:14:24,639 --> 00:14:31,080
fellowship together, right, And we've
talked about this before, or I've I've

190
00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:35,120
certainly talked about this over the years
that you know, he kind of he

191
00:14:35,279 --> 00:14:39,120
orchestrates things and then he wanders away
and then he comes back very you know,

192
00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:43,600
kind of like an old double Doore, Yes, very very double Doore.

193
00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,159
But also like a therapist, right, you show up when you can

194
00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:50,799
offer support, and you go away
and let people try things. But in

195
00:14:50,879 --> 00:14:54,600
return of the King's he's very much
in his little piece of the story.

196
00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,320
Part of what I love about this
movie is it's got my favorite trope in

197
00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:05,639
it, which is people in different
places helping the story along in their own

198
00:15:05,679 --> 00:15:09,799
way, and then at the end
they all come together for the final shebang,

199
00:15:09,919 --> 00:15:13,720
And I feel like for most of
his life, Gandolf was trying to

200
00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:18,360
make things go the way he wanted. He was trying to write a certain

201
00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:22,200
story and he didn't. He didn't
get to do that as much here,

202
00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:28,320
but he did use his influence to
make sure the beacons were lit so that

203
00:15:28,519 --> 00:15:31,519
it can look like Gondor's calling for
aid, even though Gandar's not calling for

204
00:15:31,559 --> 00:15:37,720
Anne. And one of the things
I thought as I was watching this,

205
00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:41,120
this always sparks something for me.
We were tibet chosen family, right.

206
00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:45,559
It seems like Gandolf cares about the
whole of Middle Earth and he does.

207
00:15:45,919 --> 00:15:50,159
I believe that. But also like
these are this is his crew, these

208
00:15:50,159 --> 00:15:54,639
are his peeps, and like he's
in the middle of having this epic battle

209
00:15:54,519 --> 00:16:00,919
and Pipping comes running and says,
DENNI Thor's gone mad, He's burning,

210
00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:06,480
He's gonna burn, famere alive,
and Candal just nopes the fuck out like

211
00:16:07,399 --> 00:16:10,080
the battle, but he's like,
oh, I gotta I gotta go save

212
00:16:10,399 --> 00:16:15,519
dude. I realized that was a
that was a whole train. I just

213
00:16:15,559 --> 00:16:18,200
went on, this is when you
ask me to do things. At ten

214
00:16:18,279 --> 00:16:25,000
PM, this is what you get. That's fair. Damn those children,

215
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:30,279
my child. Yes, yes,
it makes doing adult things when people's brains

216
00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:33,240
are on challenging. I don't know
if there was anything in there that any

217
00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:34,919
of you can use, but that's
what that's what came into my head.

218
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,360
So you're welcome. I mean,
I think what the movie does do well

219
00:16:38,639 --> 00:16:45,960
is there's always this prioritization of the
central gang, and which I mean,

220
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,240
I guess you could argue, I
don't want to get too off my own

221
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:52,240
side topic, but I guess you
could argue, is that morally ethically okay

222
00:16:52,600 --> 00:17:00,080
to be constantly stranding like the bigger
picture, to prioritize personal relationships person and

223
00:17:00,159 --> 00:17:04,920
all vendettas personal agendas, because I
think a lot of people make moves that

224
00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:11,359
prioritize relationships and or that have like
I mean, it all works on the

225
00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:15,359
end because it's like a classic like
hero story. But that is you could

226
00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,920
definitely pick apart if you wanted to
be a bummer about it. You can,

227
00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:22,279
But also you can you have to
argue against yourself in the same discussion

228
00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:27,359
of a well, who are the
most important players, Who are the ponds,

229
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,759
who are the Knights, who are
the rooks who are the bishops And

230
00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:36,119
when you're moving pieces on a chess
board, which is definitely a metaphor,

231
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:41,240
Gandolf uses as he's discussing what's happening, and you have to remember that some

232
00:17:41,319 --> 00:17:45,359
players are more important than others.
And Fairmere as a captain of Gondor,

233
00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:52,279
word will get around, soldiers talk, and if word gets around that denneth

234
00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:56,240
Or burned Fairmire while he was still
alive and gave up on him, that

235
00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:00,519
would do devastating damage to the morale
of the folks. If he died in

236
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,599
battle, that might rally the truth. But if he went out like that,

237
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:08,759
they might lose moral on their will
to fight and not be able to

238
00:18:08,759 --> 00:18:12,000
continue the battle in a way that
they need to. Oh, it doesn't

239
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,640
matter. Well, and this just
sparked something for me. Thank you.

240
00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:21,079
Thank you for that. Then,
because their their philosophy on life and death

241
00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,880
is that in death we go to
the halls of our fathers. And you

242
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:30,359
know, Theatin talks about how he
needed to die in a certain way to

243
00:18:30,559 --> 00:18:36,960
be given the honor of going to
those halls like Vikings. Yeah, okay,

244
00:18:37,039 --> 00:18:40,319
it's like you're not going to go
to Valhalla if you get eaten by

245
00:18:40,319 --> 00:18:45,680
an oh school. And I wonder
if and I've never thought of this before.

246
00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,720
This is what I love about dialogue, meaning is formed in dialogue with

247
00:18:49,759 --> 00:18:56,960
other humans. That's why therapy works. You're welcome, is I wonder if

248
00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:02,359
there was that moment for Gandolf where
he's like, you can't burn Pharremer alive,

249
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:06,559
or he won't go to the halls
of his father's you are he is

250
00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:12,119
going to be sent to wherever you
go in the afterlife if you don't have

251
00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,960
an honorable death, that just certainly
could be. That's the level of their

252
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,400
cultures. I know, the cultures
of that. I don't know if cultures

253
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:26,279
of Gondor and Rohan are different.
But recognizing of anyone who understands what happens

254
00:19:26,319 --> 00:19:32,680
after death, Gandolf is the only
one and the rules that would apply,

255
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:37,680
he would know. And if that's
a rule that would apply, like as

256
00:19:37,799 --> 00:19:41,680
is common in many warrior cultures,
right that if you don't die or warrior's

257
00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,200
death, or you don't die within
your axe in your hand or whatever,

258
00:19:44,279 --> 00:19:49,400
that you don't go to valhalla.
And keeping that in relevant as not only

259
00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,279
how it would apply to this person, that's part of his team and had

260
00:19:52,319 --> 00:19:56,839
his chosen family. But also the
symbol that Pharremer is as a captain of

261
00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:03,319
Gondor would be extreme relevant in the
moments where you need people to be courageous

262
00:20:03,599 --> 00:20:07,000
as pawns and stand up with a
pike against a troll that's bursting through the

263
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:11,359
city gates, in which you are
certainly going to live another three seconds.

264
00:20:11,519 --> 00:20:14,799
Well, and I was also thinking
about how important he would be to the

265
00:20:14,839 --> 00:20:18,559
transition of Aragorn becoming the king,
because he's going to need somebody that knows

266
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:23,920
everyone or has some awareness because he
just showed up and now he's the king,

267
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:29,599
and just thinking about the transition that
people would need and not having Pharomer

268
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,680
would be a huge blow in a
lot of ways. I mean, yes,

269
00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:34,720
they would listen to him because he's
their king and blah blah blah,

270
00:20:34,759 --> 00:20:38,799
of course, but also I think
he would be really important to help kind

271
00:20:38,799 --> 00:20:44,880
of integrate their the kingdom. You
would need that. You need a transition

272
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:51,960
period with the former leader legitimizes the
new one, and losing not just Pharomir,

273
00:20:52,079 --> 00:20:57,640
but Boromir and Denethor exactly would likely
lead to problems. It's almost like

274
00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:03,519
we saw how that can go when
the former leader doesn't legitimize the legitimate transfer

275
00:21:03,559 --> 00:21:07,359
of power, what happens when the
next one comes in? And what kind

276
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:12,519
of bad, crazy shit that's destabilizing
to an entire nation might be. I

277
00:21:12,559 --> 00:21:15,920
don't know. I can think of
some examples. What about you, guys.

278
00:21:15,039 --> 00:21:21,880
That doesn't relate to anything in my
life or experience, But I think

279
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,880
what sprung to me with you bringing
that up, Hannah, going back to

280
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:30,279
this idea of like relationships and chosen
family is I think what is really beautiful

281
00:21:30,279 --> 00:21:33,119
about this movie is so much of
how people push forward. I don't know

282
00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:40,920
if people's the right word, but
characters push forward is through the supports and

283
00:21:41,079 --> 00:21:45,759
belief of someone else. Like a
lot of why Aragorn becomes king is like

284
00:21:45,799 --> 00:21:52,359
the constant encouragement from his friends and
Gandalf specifically, and thinking about Farremere,

285
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:57,480
I wonder how meaningful it will be
to him after the fact that not only

286
00:21:57,839 --> 00:22:00,680
did he I mean, it's going
to be hardcore to get over your deb

287
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:07,359
trying to murder suicide with you.
But the idea that Mary Or was a

288
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:11,359
Pippin Pippin right, Pippin ran like
in the middle of a war, like

289
00:22:11,559 --> 00:22:15,319
ran to go find like one of
the biggest soldiers ganned off to just to

290
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:21,400
save your life, that your life
was meaningful and your existence was meaningful to

291
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:26,039
people, to important people, and
they took time out of an important situation

292
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,359
to come and make sure that you
were okay. That, like Pippin,

293
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,799
was like looking out for you.
And I think of someone who seems to

294
00:22:33,839 --> 00:22:38,960
have like pretty hardcore like second son
syndrome by his father. I wonder how

295
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,720
moving that would be for him and
how much that could help him, like

296
00:22:42,839 --> 00:22:48,599
self realize more to have that now
be part of his story, that and

297
00:22:48,839 --> 00:22:53,119
his kind of having a chosen family. That someone cared about me enough to

298
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:57,559
save my life and at a time
when they would have just what they would

299
00:22:57,599 --> 00:23:03,799
have been very justified in letting me
go and letting me die. That Pippin

300
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,039
was really like he jumped into the
fire himself and he could have also died.

301
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,680
And so I wonder, I just
wonder how that would help him grow

302
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:15,319
post this movie, to know that
and then also to have like his dad

303
00:23:15,319 --> 00:23:18,240
be not a part of his story
anymore. Barremere and post traumatic growth.

304
00:23:18,759 --> 00:23:30,000
Yeah. A journal article by Dritney
Brownfield. So I know I am guilty

305
00:23:30,039 --> 00:23:33,319
of taking us astray. So I'm
going to hold us firmly in chosen family

306
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,559
and relationships, which is very much
my wheelhouse as a marriage and family therapist.

307
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:42,279
One of the reasons that people go
to find chosen family is because they've

308
00:23:42,319 --> 00:23:47,640
been rejected by theirs. And I
didn't think we spend so much time in

309
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,559
Farremer, but here we are.
I mean, Farremer needs a chosen family.

310
00:23:51,839 --> 00:23:56,480
He's straight up being cast out.
Whereas most of the rest of the

311
00:23:56,519 --> 00:24:00,400
fellowship had a pretty decent home life. They could have just hung out in

312
00:24:02,319 --> 00:24:04,839
you know, like Frodo could have
stayed in the Shire, hung out with

313
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:11,440
Bilbo, Sam had his profitable gardening
business. Maryon Pippin are just like getting

314
00:24:11,519 --> 00:24:17,000
stoned, and even the vegetables.
I did love that part of the movie.

315
00:24:18,839 --> 00:24:23,799
But they have now come together and
become something. And we see chosen

316
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:29,599
family a lot in queer communities,
because lots of times queer folks get cast

317
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,519
out of their families. It's better
than it was, but it's not best.

318
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:38,240
And even if folks aren't cast out, they aren't necessarily understood or wholly

319
00:24:38,279 --> 00:24:42,000
accepted, And so finding a group
of people that get it, that get

320
00:24:42,079 --> 00:24:47,759
you and get to the burden that
you are carrying and are helping you to

321
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:52,559
carry that burden is hugely healing.
And so I see themes of that in

322
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:57,400
Lord of the Rings, and I
especially see it in Return of the King,

323
00:24:57,519 --> 00:25:03,720
not just because so much of it
is so gay, Um it is

324
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,640
well, let me let me say
this as a queer woman, I see

325
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:12,680
subtext, and I see a lot
of subtext in this film. And honestly

326
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:18,279
I hadn't I hadn't read the books
when I saw the movies and when they're

327
00:25:18,279 --> 00:25:22,640
on when Frodo and Sam are on
that rock at the end, I was

328
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:29,720
like, do they get together?
Because it was like so charged and I

329
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:33,079
didn't know. I was like,
are they do they make out? Like?

330
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,960
Is there a smooch here? Um? Could you imagine? Oh my

331
00:25:37,039 --> 00:25:40,319
god, that would have that would
have like changed not just the course of

332
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:48,720
my life, but like the course
of history truly. But you know there,

333
00:25:48,759 --> 00:25:51,839
you could look at these as being
very close friendships. You could look

334
00:25:51,839 --> 00:25:56,079
at these as being romantic relationships.
They can be whatever they want to be.

335
00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,359
But maybe that wasn't available to them
where they came from. Now it's

336
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,559
available to them here and they're looking
out for each other even when they're not

337
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,839
together. Right, Frodo and Sam
are off with their ring and everybody else

338
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,440
is like, let's help them,
let's help them. Let's wave some flags

339
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:18,039
over here and draw that fucker's eye
over here so our friends can get Lava

340
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:26,359
married. Right. I'm going to
send you the Lava song from Disney that

341
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,119
I think you need to hear now, because I's playing in my head about

342
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:33,400
a little volcano singing a song to
another volcano. Nice. That's so cute.

343
00:26:33,519 --> 00:26:40,519
But I think it's true that there's
definitely some argument for subtexts to exist,

344
00:26:40,519 --> 00:26:45,279
whether it's romantic love or friendship love. People can argue till the end

345
00:26:45,279 --> 00:26:49,400
of time, but there's love there
between these characters. Yeah, And recognizing

346
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:56,480
that when people go through trauma bonds
like these guys have, they form friendships

347
00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,640
like no other. When I was
doing ROTC, I was unable to contract

348
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:06,880
as a medical but the things that
I was doing with OURTCOS learning and had

349
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,240
one of those sergeants tell me that, like, you know, the army

350
00:27:10,279 --> 00:27:14,119
sucks, all right, the things
they put you through suck, but you

351
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:18,240
will form friendships through the military that
will not be replicated by anything else ever.

352
00:27:18,279 --> 00:27:22,480
In your life, and I believe
him as you see it. You

353
00:27:22,519 --> 00:27:29,759
see it with people that go through
these ridiculously impossible to describe situations and circumstances

354
00:27:29,759 --> 00:27:34,440
that find this deep, deep love
for their chosen family that can surpass even

355
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,359
their love for their spouses. I
don't think anybody on this show would argue

356
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:42,319
with me if I said that Sam
loved Proto more than he loved Rosie,

357
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:48,240
for sure, and it sucks that, at least here in America, that's

358
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:52,480
all I can speak to. We
put romantic relationships as a center of cultural

359
00:27:52,519 --> 00:28:02,160
life because right because best friendships,
friendships, community, chosen family can save

360
00:28:02,279 --> 00:28:07,720
your life. I have a lot
of talks with single clients who are struggling

361
00:28:07,799 --> 00:28:14,000
with singledom, and I do a
lot of like you're kind of saying,

362
00:28:14,599 --> 00:28:18,920
challenging this idea, and I bring
into our culture because I think you always

363
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,880
have to be mindful of the systems
in which we are within, and that

364
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,960
we are in a system that has
I think it's changing, which is really

365
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:33,400
interesting to watch happen in real time. But that's so like intensely intensely prioritize

366
00:28:33,519 --> 00:28:40,519
and focused on like nuclear family specifically, and partnership in that way and because

367
00:28:40,559 --> 00:28:47,039
of that like radically devalued community,
especially in like white culture, and how

368
00:28:47,079 --> 00:28:52,240
it does breed a big sense of
loneliness in people and ostracization from their friends

369
00:28:52,359 --> 00:28:57,319
when their friends do get into romantic
relationships, because there is kind of this

370
00:28:57,359 --> 00:29:02,160
thing where once you're married, you
can't go on girls trips anymore like boys

371
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:03,359
trips, or you can't like do
the same things you used to do with

372
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:08,680
your friends, and this idea that
you will be lonely if you're not in

373
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:15,079
a relationship, and how that is
really hard on people. Yeah, and

374
00:29:15,119 --> 00:29:19,920
I think you're right in that what
this movie does exemplify is like on page

375
00:29:21,119 --> 00:29:23,279
like if we're going to take it
all very literally, very little romance,

376
00:29:23,319 --> 00:29:27,440
and it's all more about like the
weight of community, and like with even

377
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:32,079
like the Four Hobbits, it's like
the weight of their community and how much

378
00:29:32,079 --> 00:29:36,440
they rent for each other and that
you don't have to be so many stories

379
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,960
are about like we're driven by love
and romantic love and that person's my soul

380
00:29:41,039 --> 00:29:44,319
mate, so I've got to,
like, you know, risk life end

381
00:29:44,359 --> 00:29:48,559
limb to save them, right.
And it is cool to see a movie

382
00:29:48,599 --> 00:29:52,680
where the focus is so much more
on caring about people because you care about

383
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:57,000
them, and it doesn't have to
be for this like higher almost self self

384
00:29:57,039 --> 00:30:02,720
interested perspective of like what are they
giving to me in the romantic one to

385
00:30:02,759 --> 00:30:04,640
one romantic exchange? This is more
like, no, we care about each

386
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,920
other. I mean, I think
Sam's like a great example of that in

387
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:18,920
that he seems to be someone who
he values relationships so highly and friendship and

388
00:30:18,119 --> 00:30:22,519
community and not just the community in
the shire, but like off of the

389
00:30:22,599 --> 00:30:29,039
shire, and he isn't really driven
by more stereotypical like heroism or ego.

390
00:30:29,599 --> 00:30:32,359
He doesn't need to be the one
who throws the ring in the fire,

391
00:30:33,079 --> 00:30:37,880
he doesn't need to be the dude. He's just what matters to him is

392
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:42,119
the higher purpose of saving his community
and all the communities that go along with

393
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:47,920
that, and on a more micro
level, like saving his friend. And

394
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:52,119
he's so outside of his ego in
a way that's like really harwarming. I

395
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,160
mean, I think that's why people
I thought, like the first time I

396
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,640
watch it, I had nothing like
I read the first book in high school

397
00:30:57,799 --> 00:31:03,559
and I don't like it, and
so I never read this. I feel

398
00:31:03,559 --> 00:31:06,200
like I had to do an apology
tour every episode, we doing more of

399
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:11,599
the rings, and I'm like a
voracious reader, like I was reading like

400
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,279
the stand on the bridge at the
same time, and I was just like,

401
00:31:15,319 --> 00:31:17,680
I can't listen. I can't read. These dudes have an a meal

402
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,000
one more time, and what are
we doing. I don't know where I

403
00:31:21,039 --> 00:31:23,440
was going with that, other than
you know, it is nice to see

404
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:29,359
someone who so purposely puts aside all
the ego just to be present for his

405
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,480
friendship and not. I mean,
that's all the serious where I was going

406
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:34,279
with that. So when I watched
it, I was really when I watched

407
00:31:34,319 --> 00:31:37,039
In College, the last movie,
I was really surprised to be like,

408
00:31:37,079 --> 00:31:41,200
oh, Sam is the hero,
and that kind of blew my mind because

409
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,720
I, of course, being on
the sidelines during all this fandom, I

410
00:31:44,759 --> 00:31:47,240
was like, well, Froto Froto. Everyone's tam a Frodo. People can't

411
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:48,759
get enough a Froto. Elisia would
YadA YadA, And when I watched it,

412
00:31:48,799 --> 00:31:51,599
I was like, oh, no, Like, Froto's just the guy

413
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:56,240
that happens to have the ring and
Sam is the one literally carrying his body

414
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:02,200
to more door, to the very
end end, And how cool that was

415
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:07,359
to see and how different that felt
than other things I had seen and read.

416
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:12,480
I think so much of the story
settles on that, particularly with the

417
00:32:12,519 --> 00:32:16,519
goodness of Sam, that no matter
what's going on, he's always focused on

418
00:32:17,119 --> 00:32:22,200
proto first. He's focused on his
people first. And it is said that

419
00:32:22,359 --> 00:32:29,880
things get so romantic centric we could
get lost in the Rigorn Arwyin dynamic in

420
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:35,480
any other story. I was shocked
that was in this movie. I was

421
00:32:35,559 --> 00:32:37,440
like, where has Arwin been this
whole time? And the way that people

422
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,839
talk about these two, I thought
i'd be seeing them like touching Mouse the

423
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,359
whole movie, and she's barely in
it, and they do have a good

424
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:45,960
kiss at the end. I'll give
him that. Oh yeah, you can

425
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:51,599
see how long he's waited for that, right, Vigo sold the business?

426
00:32:51,839 --> 00:32:57,720
Yeah, but you're right, Like, how like decentralized? Yeah, but

427
00:32:57,799 --> 00:33:00,279
you can see like, yeah,
you're right, Ben, Like how decentralize

428
00:33:00,319 --> 00:33:04,880
that relationship is When so many movies
Ericorn would be the hero and it'd be

429
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,319
him in Arwin and that dilemma,
or Frodo would have a love interest,

430
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,599
not Sam. Because I get what
you guys are saying. I'm not trying

431
00:33:10,599 --> 00:33:17,079
to denounce Sam as his love interest. I mean, he so I'm not

432
00:33:17,119 --> 00:33:22,559
trying to sell anyone on Sam and
Frodo being in love. That's my head

433
00:33:22,599 --> 00:33:25,640
canon. It doesn't need to be
anybody else's. But the times that we

434
00:33:25,839 --> 00:33:31,839
see Sam act irrationally is when he
knows or he feels that he knows that

435
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:37,279
Smeegel is not leading them where he
says he is. That you know,

436
00:33:37,599 --> 00:33:42,039
he ate the lamb has bread,
all that stuff, And I do wish

437
00:33:42,079 --> 00:33:45,039
that they didn't have Sam beat up
on Smegel as much. That's upsetting to

438
00:33:45,079 --> 00:33:49,880
me. But also it's like,
do we have ourselves a little love triangle?

439
00:33:50,039 --> 00:33:53,960
And Sam is really upset that Smeiegel
has the higher place in the social

440
00:33:54,000 --> 00:34:00,079
strata right now and he has been
demoted. That's so interesting saying I feel

441
00:34:00,119 --> 00:34:05,119
like part of the reason why Sam
does kind of like lose his grip a

442
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:09,440
little bit is because he's worried about
Frodo and he's worried about him getting to

443
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,199
where he needs to be with the
Ring, and so I feel like his

444
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,159
rage is kind of you're preventing us
from doing this thing, and if we

445
00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:19,519
can't do this thing, that we
can't go home, and if we can't

446
00:34:19,559 --> 00:34:22,119
go home, then I don't know
what the you know, what the fuck

447
00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:24,639
am I doing here? So that's
kind of where I can't where I was

448
00:34:24,679 --> 00:34:28,440
thinking about it, because it is
it's odd. It's kind of like shocking

449
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,440
that he beats the shit out of
him a little bit and at the same

450
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:37,599
time and at the same time he
is right about Sniegel, like he is

451
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:44,000
right about him the whole time.
But it is interesting to see to kind

452
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,480
of see how that is kind of
played out, the relationship between the three

453
00:34:46,519 --> 00:34:52,599
of them, and how different and
how even Frodo has a hard time connecting

454
00:34:52,599 --> 00:34:58,360
with Sam about how Sam feels about
Snegel because they both feel so so differently

455
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:00,639
about him. And I think we've
talked about if we haven't talked about this,

456
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:06,199
that I think Froto sees what he
could become, yeah, and that

457
00:35:06,199 --> 00:35:09,719
that is really something that he can't
I don't know if it's just so painful

458
00:35:10,199 --> 00:35:15,519
to be aware of what the ring
could truly do to someone, so painful

459
00:35:15,559 --> 00:35:19,000
for him to see that he kind
of can't see all of the kind of

460
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:23,800
sneaky things that he's doing right well, I mean, there's there's so much

461
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:29,800
in that dynamic that I think one
part of it I caught this watch that

462
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,800
I hadn't, and maybe it's because
the word of the year last year became

463
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:37,400
apparent, is that Frodo guess,
like Sam. Before Sam gets violent,

464
00:35:37,639 --> 00:35:45,039
Sam, here's Smeegel and Gollum actively
plotting to kill them, which has been

465
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:51,119
his concern the entire time, him
not being really able. He doesn't believe

466
00:35:51,199 --> 00:35:54,159
the duality of Smeegel Gollum. He
sees Gollum. I don't think Sam ever

467
00:35:54,199 --> 00:36:00,199
sees Segel, and Froto does.
And when Sam becomes violent is when he

468
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:04,760
is put in this impossible situation where
he heard it, he saw it,

469
00:36:05,199 --> 00:36:08,559
he knows it, and Frodo gaslights
him, and that's when he breaks.

470
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:13,239
Yeah, he comes back, but
it takes him a while to break and

471
00:36:13,599 --> 00:36:15,559
to pick himself back up. And
it's not until we see him fall down

472
00:36:15,639 --> 00:36:21,639
the steps and find the lambas bread, realizing that he was right manipulated in

473
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:24,760
all the things he was afraid and
he had to reactivate to save his love.

474
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:30,960
Mister Froto and can I jump in
with something just mildly tangential. So

475
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,719
when I looked at those stairs,
I was like, oh, that would

476
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,199
take forever. And then yesterday at
the gym, I walked up one hundred

477
00:36:38,199 --> 00:36:42,280
and sixty flights of stairs that took
an hour, and that at that was

478
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,960
at a medium pace. So I
do think that Sam could have busted up

479
00:36:46,159 --> 00:36:52,159
those stairs in about okay, in
about twenty minutes with that adrenaline going,

480
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:53,840
because I was like, there's no
way he got back up those stairs that

481
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:58,800
fast, right, how could he
save him from? She love? Well,

482
00:36:59,199 --> 00:37:01,519
I did one hundred sixty flights in
an hour medium pace. That's a

483
00:37:01,599 --> 00:37:07,559
humble brag, but also useful information
for context. I'm to tell you,

484
00:37:07,599 --> 00:37:09,719
every time you say that phrase,
I hear Adam Sandler in my head and

485
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:15,280
I'm resisting laughing really hard. Well, the medium pace gave me just scene

486
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:21,079
too. There is an app that
I don't have, but I heard about

487
00:37:21,639 --> 00:37:24,880
where it will track your steps,
but as if you were walking to my

488
00:37:25,039 --> 00:37:28,840
door. I haven't heard of that
thing. Yeah, okay, I just

489
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:30,559
won't throw that out there because it
sounds like something might be your bag.

490
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:37,360
I wonder if there's one for climbing
the stairs, climbing the secret stair,

491
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:43,280
because that I would be very interested
in. That would make for good motivation

492
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,559
when you're going I'm a drible,
I'm a drible. I'm a drible,

493
00:37:45,559 --> 00:37:50,559
but I'm getting fit, damn it. And how close am I to saving

494
00:37:50,599 --> 00:37:57,599
Proto? He's gonna get eaten by
Shelab. Gotta go faster. That would

495
00:37:57,599 --> 00:38:01,599
be worth timing. There's one thing
I wanted to say that from my research

496
00:38:01,679 --> 00:38:04,960
on this, this is the stuff
I remember for even from high school as

497
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,760
writing papers on The Lord of the
Rings. And one of the things that

498
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:15,159
I remembered from this was the amount
of soldier in the trench's relationship that exists

499
00:38:15,599 --> 00:38:20,400
for Froto and Sam, because at
some point in war, one thing becomes

500
00:38:20,639 --> 00:38:24,719
ostensibly true is when people are shelling
you and firing bullets at you, and

501
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:30,440
God forbid gas. No longer are
you doing this for your country or for

502
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:34,360
any sort of greater good. What
you are doing is attaching to the chosen

503
00:38:34,599 --> 00:38:40,199
family around you and doing everything you
can to get you and them home alive.

504
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:47,599
And the amount of Tolkien's experience that
must be playing out with Froto and

505
00:38:47,639 --> 00:38:52,800
Sam from having lived that and survived
when many didn't. There are some really

506
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:58,760
scary photographs of before and afters from
World War One of entire battalions of who

507
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:04,760
came home showing all of these men
lined up and then like three came back

508
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:13,159
exactly. And that is an important
dynamic we see when we consider what relationship

509
00:39:13,199 --> 00:39:16,719
we're looking at and just exactly how
close those can become. You see them

510
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:21,480
with police who have partners who have
been with them for a long time.

511
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,440
Anybody who does things intense, nurses, doctors, et cetera. They have

512
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:29,159
a set team that they go into
surgeries with. People get really attached to

513
00:39:29,199 --> 00:39:31,840
these people. From doing therapy with
police, I can tell you for sure

514
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:37,199
that people can develop relationships with their
partners that their spouses get jealous over that

515
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:43,719
are not romantic, but the amount
of love and attention and affection and amount

516
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,920
of space that they occupy in someone's
consciousness is something that a spouse could never

517
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:51,920
hope to scratch because of the intensity
of the relationship from the experience, and

518
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:57,079
that definitely drives what we see a
photo and Sam and White chosen family becomes

519
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:01,960
so powerful. And I think with
Sam and Frodo in the Smeegel kind of

520
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:07,400
triangulation is something I was kind of
noting when I was watching it is Froto

521
00:40:07,559 --> 00:40:14,519
does have a unique perspective in that
he understands what Sniegel's going through, and

522
00:40:14,599 --> 00:40:20,079
I mean his commonality with Sniegel and
with Sam, and I think that impacts

523
00:40:20,159 --> 00:40:24,440
greatly like how they engage with it. It's almost like Froto overidentifies with Snegel,

524
00:40:24,679 --> 00:40:30,280
and it's almost like over defensive with
Sniegel and overprotective of Spiegel because he

525
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:34,320
knows what it's like to be.
It kind of makes me think of when

526
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:40,400
I work with people who have struggled
with substances, and the difference in perspective

527
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:44,800
when I work with family where they
know what that's like versus when they don't

528
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,360
know what that's like, and how
they can have a lot of unfair assumptions

529
00:40:49,039 --> 00:40:52,159
about why someone still engage with substances, why they do the things they do

530
00:40:52,199 --> 00:40:58,280
when they're on substances or in search
of substances or in the throes of it

531
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:02,079
right. And my only real critique
of Sam, even though I love him,

532
00:41:04,079 --> 00:41:07,000
is he is so hard on Smigel. And I think what kind of

533
00:41:07,039 --> 00:41:09,800
bumps me out about the story is
I wish Sniegel was redeemed. I love

534
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,400
a redemption arc, and I wish
there was a way that they could have

535
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:17,400
pulled him out of that back into
his I guess humanness, and I think

536
00:41:17,559 --> 00:41:24,000
I'm said Elijah, I think knows
that because and I think he needs to

537
00:41:24,039 --> 00:41:29,119
believe that too, because he needs
to think I don't know, I'm assuming,

538
00:41:29,159 --> 00:41:31,119
but that he I would assume that
he needs to think it's possible for

539
00:41:31,119 --> 00:41:35,599
Snegele be redeemable because I'm fallen down
this path. And so I think that

540
00:41:35,679 --> 00:41:39,320
also is what causes that schism with
them is I think for Sam it must

541
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:44,719
be really hard to be so attached
to Froto and then if someone come up

542
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:49,400
that has something in common with him
that Sam will never have in common with

543
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,599
him. Yeah, And I think
that's what can be hard when I work

544
00:41:52,639 --> 00:41:55,960
with people who are building community is
because they maybe have come from like rejected

545
00:41:57,039 --> 00:42:01,920
families of origin. Is that they
can be so pressures an overprotective and also

546
00:42:02,079 --> 00:42:08,440
scared in regards to their chosen family
or their friendships. And that can be

547
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:10,440
part of like you were bringing up, we were bringing up the beginning like

548
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:15,079
that, repeated patterns of behaviors and
so sin as my job as a therapist

549
00:42:15,159 --> 00:42:20,760
is sort of to like talk them
out ish of engaging, you know,

550
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:25,440
acting out that anxiety and that fear
and whatever. And so I wonder with

551
00:42:25,559 --> 00:42:30,800
Samon froto To how difficult it is
for Sam to be for Frodo to have

552
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:35,480
gone to a place that Sam can't
follow him emotionally, mentally, and that

553
00:42:35,639 --> 00:42:38,360
Smiegel's already there, and that Smiegel
doesn't feel safe. And so I get

554
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:44,480
why Sam is over protective of Froto, But unfortunately he is so demonizing of

555
00:42:44,559 --> 00:42:49,400
Sniegel that I think, how can
how can Frodo not be defensive of that?

556
00:42:49,599 --> 00:42:52,480
And I think that it could be
why Frodo go so hard in Smingle's

557
00:42:52,519 --> 00:42:59,199
defense is as a reaction, ironically, in a reaction to Sam being so

558
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:04,239
anti it's me goal because I think
what Sam would need to realize post movie,

559
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,920
let's say, if Froto hadn't like
taken that ship into the sunset,

560
00:43:07,559 --> 00:43:14,119
is that Froto is a different person
now. And in these relationships, regardless,

561
00:43:14,199 --> 00:43:16,880
you have to adapt to the people
around You have to let them be

562
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:22,239
different people. They can't just be
in stasis, and you can't just hold

563
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,679
regard for them when they're what you
need them to be or what you remember

564
00:43:25,679 --> 00:43:29,679
them to be, or what you're
nostalgic for and so I think there would

565
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,840
have to be like work there of
Froto's different now and you have to let

566
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:37,719
him be different, and you have
to let him integrate this experience into who

567
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:42,159
he is now and that he might
never be the Froto from before. So

568
00:43:42,199 --> 00:43:46,159
I think Sam seems to be doing
a better job moving and kind of going.

569
00:43:46,679 --> 00:43:49,880
I don't know, you don't see
a lot from the post journey,

570
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,800
post quest, but that would be
an interesting dynamic, their ability to let

571
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:58,440
each other change and evolve without feeling
threatened by that change, just moving forward.

572
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:00,719
I mean they can't as the whole
parton point at the end the camp,

573
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:07,519
I think that's that's that's the whole
point of the scene is Fertile can't

574
00:44:07,599 --> 00:44:12,360
he can't fit in. He tells
he's sitting there at the bar in the

575
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:16,519
Green Dragon telling people that he still
feels like he's in a dream. And

576
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:23,320
when he is writing the final chapters
of the book, it's where he describes

577
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:29,920
that quote that was so heartbreaking and
powerful and I'm just gonna read it because

578
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:35,239
it stuck out to me so hard
that this was this is the way people

579
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:42,440
feel, and that's why there's so
many divorces in returning veterans and military and

580
00:44:42,519 --> 00:44:46,960
other military but first responded relationships,
so that people go through and see things

581
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:52,440
that they bond with people who understand
and they perceived can understand them that the

582
00:44:52,519 --> 00:44:57,079
other people who love them in their
life can sometimes fall guilty of trying to

583
00:44:57,119 --> 00:45:02,599
hold them to the version they used
to that feels so painfully inaccessible to them

584
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:07,440
that they can't be with that person
anymore. And Photo has said at the

585
00:45:07,519 --> 00:45:10,639
end of how do you pick up
the threads of an old life? How

586
00:45:10,639 --> 00:45:15,599
do you go on? When in
your heart you begin to understand there is

587
00:45:15,119 --> 00:45:20,800
no going back. There are some
things that time cannot mend, some hurts

588
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:22,800
that go too deep that have taken
hold. Well, Matt, no,

589
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:25,360
I should we take a break?
Sure? Right? Is there anything else

590
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:30,000
about Chosen family or relationships that we
see in this movie that we want to

591
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:32,840
make sure to point out before we
move on? I think the only thing

592
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:36,880
that I would want to say,
because so much movie, so complicated and

593
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,519
song we could talk for literally years
about it. The thing that I want

594
00:45:39,559 --> 00:45:45,760
to point out is the way that
Arwin and l Round go through navigating Arwin

595
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:49,639
is about to leave any father is
going to be very happy. His daughter

596
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:52,760
is making a sensible choice in keeping
herself safe. When Arwin has that vision

597
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:59,840
or foresight of her son with Eric
Barn, she turns back from going on

598
00:46:00,079 --> 00:46:05,840
ship to the Undying Lands and returns
and forces Elron to reforge the sword.

599
00:46:06,039 --> 00:46:09,880
And seeing that kind of thing happen
in Chosen Families does happen quite a bit

600
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:15,719
where a parent who wants a child
to make a safer choice in their partner

601
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:21,440
or a more logical choice, a
smarter match, to not do something stupid,

602
00:46:21,519 --> 00:46:23,880
not do the big move, not
move across the country for this person,

603
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:28,400
not go to college with someone,
and watching el Ron, who had

604
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:35,480
been fighting against it, even recruiting
Aragorn to fight against what Arwin wanted and

605
00:46:35,599 --> 00:46:42,599
chose with her free will and agree
acquiesc and even essentially bless the relationship even

606
00:46:42,679 --> 00:46:45,000
though his daughter was choosing a life
of death. I think is an important

607
00:46:45,039 --> 00:46:51,199
lesson for people to learn in the
way you have to create space for children

608
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:54,760
to find their own chosen family,
because they're going to with or without you.

609
00:46:55,119 --> 00:47:00,840
But it will be a much healthier
experience for everyone if you guide them

610
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:05,000
without forbidding them from making their own
choices. With their own free will as

611
00:47:05,039 --> 00:47:07,719
they become little grown ups and even
big grown ups who are thousands of years

612
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:14,119
old in the case of Arwin,
and then those children might choose you to

613
00:47:14,199 --> 00:47:19,000
be part of their chosen family.
Right, because we can choose our family

614
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:24,000
of origin to be part of our
chosen family. Many of us choose not

615
00:47:24,079 --> 00:47:29,000
to do that. But I mean, my favorite example of this is from

616
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:34,360
The Golden Girls, right, I
know, which I fandom jumped, but

617
00:47:34,639 --> 00:47:39,840
it is my favorite example of that
because we see these four women living together,

618
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:45,440
and we have a mother and daughter, and they have chosen each other

619
00:47:45,519 --> 00:47:50,719
as chosen family, even though they
are also family of origin. So you

620
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,239
know, you let your kids make
choices they might choose to keep you around

621
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:59,760
and letting them operate their life in
the way that they see fit, even

622
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:02,119
if you disagree, it's the best
way you can influence that chance that your

623
00:48:02,559 --> 00:48:07,559
child makes you part of their chosen
family. Because I think something I don't

624
00:48:07,559 --> 00:48:09,400
remember it was Brittany your hand is
one of you said it that. I

625
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:17,000
think it's Brittany watching what's happening with
the millennial generation and the Zoomers after us.

626
00:48:17,519 --> 00:48:21,840
Is the blood is thicker than water. Mentality that we were taught.

627
00:48:22,199 --> 00:48:27,000
We are saying a very firm nab
bro too as a generation, and the

628
00:48:27,039 --> 00:48:30,960
Zoomers are taking after we don't have
to keep you in our chosen family just

629
00:48:30,039 --> 00:48:34,920
because we're blood. Yeah, it
has to be earned. That's so funny

630
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,840
because I'm gen X, I didn't
have But I also think that was just

631
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:43,760
my family more tip well, I
mean like when they're living the full quote,

632
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:46,119
which is blood is thicker than the
blood of the whatever is thicker than

633
00:48:46,119 --> 00:48:50,119
the water of the loan. So
the actual full quote means that your chosen

634
00:48:50,159 --> 00:48:57,159
family is stronger than your family of
origin because you are actively choosing and you

635
00:48:57,199 --> 00:49:01,800
go through things together versus you just
happen to be related to each other.

636
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:08,280
Wait, but are you Are you
saying people misquote and misuse scripture? Yeah?

637
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:15,840
Is it even scripture? Impeare,
Yeah, it's from Shakespeare. I

638
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:19,800
think it is from the same scripture. I think it's from the same concept

639
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,559
as like band of brothers. I
have no idea. The only thing that

640
00:49:22,599 --> 00:49:28,199
I was thinking in terms of relationships
kind of in general, was how seeing

641
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:32,239
the stress of the situations that they're
all in really made me think about how

642
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:37,000
no matter what your relationship is like
with someone when a lot of stress,

643
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:40,280
I mean like unbelievable amounts of stress, right, Like we're not talking about,

644
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:43,400
oh, you just had a shitty
day, right, We're talking about

645
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:47,000
the world is gonna end. Things
are pretty fucking awful. Um that what.

646
00:49:47,159 --> 00:49:51,360
It just made me think of couples, and it made me think about

647
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:55,480
how how important it is to have
tools that you can use together in order

648
00:49:55,559 --> 00:50:00,519
to get through times that are harder
than others, because, as we know,

649
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:05,559
life happens. And it just really
made me think about all the different

650
00:50:05,639 --> 00:50:09,199
kinds of couple work that could be
done here in this setting, with all

651
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:14,440
of these different couples, all these
different groups of people. Because your relationship

652
00:50:14,599 --> 00:50:19,000
can feel very good and very healthy
and very supportive, and then all of

653
00:50:19,039 --> 00:50:22,599
a sudden one of you lose us
a parent, or your child is ill

654
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:29,400
or whatever, or lose a pet. There are so many different things that

655
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,400
can happen that create different kinds of
stress and relationship. And it just made

656
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:37,039
me think about how kind of like
we see here, Even with Mary and

657
00:50:37,079 --> 00:50:39,559
Pippin, who seemed to kind of
go along with each other for most of

658
00:50:39,599 --> 00:50:45,679
the time, in most different ways, even they have us a place where

659
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:49,880
Mary is like, you've got to
stop, man, You've got to stop

660
00:50:50,159 --> 00:50:54,079
being curious about shit and then saying
sorry afterwards, because it's getting fucking old,

661
00:50:54,440 --> 00:51:00,599
and it's and at this point where
we are, it's causing true problem,

662
00:51:00,639 --> 00:51:02,880
not just oh like now we had
to run away from the garden faster

663
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:09,280
than usual, but now Saron thinks
that you are proto and that's the whole

664
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:14,199
other problem that you created. So
that's just something else that I thought about

665
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:19,119
with relationships in the film, and
just wanting to kind of point out to

666
00:51:19,159 --> 00:51:22,320
people that part of going to couples
therapy, part of getting help in general,

667
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:28,400
is getting tools that will help you
navigate all different kinds of stressful situations,

668
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:31,440
and that anybody can come to couples
therapy in orders to get those tools.

669
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:35,719
Doesn't have to be something where you're
waiting till a certain time. And

670
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:38,519
I know I talk about this all
the time about how coming sooner is better

671
00:51:38,559 --> 00:51:43,480
than coming at the end, but
also just that I hear when I talk

672
00:51:43,519 --> 00:51:45,320
to people about going to couples therapy, I hear a lot about how well,

673
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:47,960
is it that bad? Is it
that bad that we have to go?

674
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:51,679
Is it that bad, that this
is something that's like, here's the

675
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:54,960
thing. It shouldn't be something that
you do once your relationship is so bad

676
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:59,440
that you can't stand each other anymore. You should be going and getting these

677
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:01,239
tools soon. So that was just
something that the movie maybe think of that

678
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:04,360
I want to make sure that I
talked about. I mean, it's a

679
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:07,679
great point because I think that is
a common theme in this movie of relationships

680
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:13,840
that are historically solid getting very fraid, specifically the Hobbits, You're right,

681
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:17,480
like Mary and Pippin and Salmon Frodo
really struggling. And I see the same

682
00:52:17,519 --> 00:52:23,760
thing where people would have been fine
if this really tragic thing didn't happen.

683
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:28,280
Are these really stressful outcomes weren't happening? Because I work a lot doing family

684
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:31,960
therapy when one of the specifically the
kids and the work that I've done,

685
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:39,159
have been in like severe crisis sometimes
even like attempting where it's thrown the parents

686
00:52:39,199 --> 00:52:43,599
for a loop and trying to help
them through. We have to be different

687
00:52:43,639 --> 00:52:45,119
people now, and like, how
are we taking it out on each other?

688
00:52:45,159 --> 00:52:47,920
Are stress out on each other?
And I would imagine a good deal

689
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:52,400
of the Mary Pippin stuff is them
taking the stress out on each other.

690
00:52:52,519 --> 00:52:55,360
And also the way we used to
navigate around the world has to adapt,

691
00:52:55,599 --> 00:53:00,840
and I think Mary seems to be
adapting a little bit better than Pippin.

692
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:04,679
And I see that in real life
with couples and families I work with,

693
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:07,480
for one is kind of getting the
gidda up quicker than the other one,

694
00:53:08,039 --> 00:53:12,599
and that can cause a real schism
between them, because, like you were

695
00:53:12,599 --> 00:53:15,800
seeing Hannah, even the situations I've
done, it's not just little things,

696
00:53:16,199 --> 00:53:22,480
Like we're talking about something that has
massive implications that could really endanger us or

697
00:53:22,599 --> 00:53:27,000
our loved one. So you have
to get your shit together and we have

698
00:53:27,079 --> 00:53:30,199
to be on the same team.
And the stuff that used to fly cannot

699
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:32,880
fly anymore. And I know we're
changing the rules mid game, and we

700
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:37,840
have to change the rules mid game, and I wonder with Pippin that would

701
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:42,960
be really hard to hear you know
that that was something that had to happen.

702
00:53:43,199 --> 00:53:45,880
You can just take a break here, moving on to our next topic

703
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:51,360
here, purpose and heroism. I
think this is one of the resounding themes

704
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:59,079
of this movie, watching people who
must stand and overcome impossible odds. I

705
00:53:59,159 --> 00:54:00,840
kind of want to make hand sing
the impossible dream hair given her love for

706
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:04,920
classic musical theater, but she's going
to stab me with her eyes if I

707
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:14,000
do that. I ran crew for
Manelamancha one summer. I was a theater

708
00:54:14,119 --> 00:54:17,920
kid. But you got you gotta
pay me, you gotta pay me to

709
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:22,280
sing right. I was like,
it was one of the songs I learned

710
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:23,159
an invoice lessons, so I could
do it. But I'm not going to

711
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:28,599
because no one's paying me either.
So, but recognizing the relevance of that

712
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:35,480
song and these kinds of situations that
make these stories interesting is what do people

713
00:54:35,599 --> 00:54:42,119
do against impossible odds? How do
they still fight when they know they will

714
00:54:42,199 --> 00:54:49,320
die? And we see that make
stories interesting sense forever because those stories are

715
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:55,320
also real. Human beings have to
overcome impossible odds to continue to survive.

716
00:54:55,559 --> 00:55:01,840
And how do we find the strength
in ourselves to stand up against impossible evil

717
00:55:02,119 --> 00:55:06,800
knowing we may not come home again, but if we don't stand up,

718
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:10,039
there won't be a home to come
back to in the first place. And

719
00:55:10,159 --> 00:55:15,360
that's certainly the theme of the book
with this and the movie is that something's

720
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:21,639
threatening everything and we must all come
together, band together, set aside our

721
00:55:21,679 --> 00:55:24,039
petty differences and stand up against this
evil or it will consume us. And

722
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:29,000
watching the way that people have to
do that is fascinating because you have to

723
00:55:29,039 --> 00:55:34,280
put aside the inherent prime directive you
are hardwired with, which is to stay

724
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:39,039
alive. Some things can become greater
than our own prime directive that can enable

725
00:55:39,159 --> 00:55:44,760
us to throw ourselves into situations we
might not come out of. And finding

726
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:47,800
our connection to purpose is how humans
do that. And the narrative process of

727
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:54,639
watching characters go through that, I
think draws connection to the moments where we

728
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:59,119
have envisioned ourselves doing the same thing
and kind of give us a basis for

729
00:55:59,199 --> 00:56:06,519
how you do that. Watching Thadin
go through motivating his troops after black speech,

730
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:10,840
right, yeah, that's a good
speech, so good all of his,

731
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:15,880
and he gives several I think the
most powerful one and the most important

732
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:20,360
one did not come on the eve
of the battle. It did not come

733
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:24,039
as they were preparing to charge into
a massive horde of Orcs. It came

734
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:30,320
when Ergorn, Ghimli, and Legolis
left. That was the most important and

735
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:35,440
most kingly moment we saw of all. Besides Ergorn saying no you kneel to

736
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:43,519
no one yeah, sure, watching
Theodin tell them there's six thousand less than

737
00:56:43,559 --> 00:56:45,519
half of what I hope for.
But then him going through and motivating his

738
00:56:45,519 --> 00:56:50,159
troops did, no matter what,
we have to go. This is upon

739
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:52,760
us, whether we like it or
not. We must go, and we

740
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:54,559
have to fight, and if it
is to be our end, let it

741
00:56:54,679 --> 00:56:58,519
be such an end, which was
where he started in Helm's Deep, really,

742
00:56:58,559 --> 00:57:02,119
but then carrying that message forward over
and over again to motivate these people

743
00:57:02,559 --> 00:57:07,320
knowing they don't have enough, knowing
they're going to ride into their doom,

744
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:10,519
but that they have to. And
I think for me that's what makes stories

745
00:57:10,559 --> 00:57:15,239
like this and Return of the Jedi
and the actual good. Closing chapters of

746
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:22,400
trilogies where you watch people go having
to go up against impossible situations requires us

747
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:25,039
to put aside the parts of ourselves
that I have any interest in keeping us

748
00:57:25,039 --> 00:57:30,639
alive, and have full trust that
whatever happens, we're doing the right thing

749
00:57:30,679 --> 00:57:34,840
and some things are worth dying for. This is making me think I'm currently

750
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:39,079
reading Young's biography. I'm actually listening
to Young's biography. I'm reading In with

751
00:57:39,119 --> 00:57:45,480
my ears. But because I'm doing
that, I am feeling very immersed and

752
00:57:45,679 --> 00:57:51,679
young and the collective unconscious. And
I feel like moments like this, when

753
00:57:52,519 --> 00:57:58,599
we are handed the opportunity to go
towards the light or to embrace our shadow,

754
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:04,559
we tap into that collective unconscious.
We tap into something primal. And

755
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:08,639
what lives in there is mythology and
stories. And it's not so much what

756
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:15,719
lives in there is our fears of
living and dying, but rather the ancient

757
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:20,599
stories that we're all connected to.
And so when I think about Theatin,

758
00:58:20,719 --> 00:58:24,400
for example, we were talking about
his belief system of what happens when you

759
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:30,079
die in battle, and he you
know, he's tapping into that story in

760
00:58:30,159 --> 00:58:34,039
the collective unconscious of the Rohrem and
going, yeah, we're gonna go We're

761
00:58:34,039 --> 00:58:37,519
going to meet him in battle and
then we're gonna go to Horse of all

762
00:58:37,559 --> 00:58:43,880
Allah. And it's really powerful,
and I think it comes from I think

763
00:58:44,719 --> 00:58:50,760
it comes from their their mythology,
their belief system of like, yes,

764
00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:54,119
I agree, it's what they believe
is right, but also that there will

765
00:58:54,199 --> 00:59:00,559
be a glorious death. Yeah.
When both of you were talking and Justine,

766
00:59:00,719 --> 00:59:04,039
what was coming to mind and you
kind of articulated at Justine, is

767
00:59:04,679 --> 00:59:09,719
it reminds Its just like belief systems
of there is something after me. So

768
00:59:09,719 --> 00:59:14,840
it's getting away from the individual and
getting more into like you were saying,

769
00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:17,239
the collective, back to the idea
of community we're talking about earlier, and

770
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:22,639
it doesn't have to be religious in
the sense of going to heaven or Valhalla

771
00:59:22,039 --> 00:59:27,800
or the Elysian Field or whatever,
because we see this now, I think

772
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:32,159
in the millennial and gen Z generation, which is this idea of I want

773
00:59:32,199 --> 00:59:37,320
to leave the earth. I'm thinking
of an after me in terms of climate

774
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:40,480
change. And we talked about ecological
grief in the last and the two tous

775
00:59:40,519 --> 00:59:45,239
episode. We sure did, and
I talked about the thinking of the Titanic

776
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:50,079
and you still have me back.
Yeah, But I think because it was

777
00:59:50,119 --> 00:59:52,719
awesome well, and why I wanted
to bring that up is I do think

778
00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:58,119
we're getting away from a lot of
people aren't getting away from religion. And

779
00:59:58,159 --> 01:00:00,079
I think if we if we put
this all under the antle of you have

780
01:00:00,119 --> 01:00:05,119
to believe when there's like life after
death, some people push on that understandably

781
01:00:05,159 --> 01:00:07,679
so, and I think it's more
of this greater belief that there is something

782
01:00:07,719 --> 01:00:14,920
after me and then not necessarily me
getting rewarded after death, but more that

783
01:00:15,079 --> 01:00:21,760
what can be rewarding and feel purposeful
and heroic perhaps is the life and the

784
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:25,599
lands and the community and the world
that I'm leaving that will last longer than

785
01:00:25,679 --> 01:00:30,920
me. And I think that's what
they're all fighting for. Even the moment

786
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:35,880
when Frodo is kind of down for
the count amongst the lava and Sam is

787
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:40,400
holding him very romantic and he's like, remember the shy or the strawberries.

788
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:45,679
And I think in that moment it
is serving I wrote down that he's grounding

789
01:00:45,679 --> 01:00:47,719
Frodo. I think in that moment's
also serving the purpose of trying to ground

790
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:53,039
him with like sensory stuff. And
also I think it's him reminding him that

791
01:00:53,119 --> 01:00:58,840
there's like this greater purpose, that
there is something we're protecting that even if

792
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:00,719
we don't get to enjoy it,
because at that time Sam is kind of

793
01:01:00,719 --> 01:01:06,159
thinking we're not gonna make it out
of here, that there's still something beautiful

794
01:01:06,639 --> 01:01:12,599
that our people will continue to enjoy
after us. And I think that's where

795
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:16,719
I think we're seeing a lot of
purpose in all the people fighting for climate

796
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:22,559
change and just systemic change. Is
it's not for necessarily us to enjoy,

797
01:01:23,079 --> 01:01:29,400
but for generations after us to enjoy
and that can feel good even if you'll

798
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:34,119
never experience it yourself. And I
think that's tapping into these people that go

799
01:01:34,159 --> 01:01:37,960
into battle like the Odin where they're
clearly outnumbered. Is it's not necessarily about

800
01:01:38,039 --> 01:01:42,960
if I get to enjoy it.
It's that the people after me that last

801
01:01:43,079 --> 01:01:47,119
longer than me, they have something
that is meaningful and beautiful. Yeah,

802
01:01:47,159 --> 01:01:52,719
you're talking about legacy. Yeah,
and that I think when we think of

803
01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:55,159
legacy, we can think of it
in a very ego driven way of like,

804
01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:58,880
I wan't a statue that says my
name on it, and I like

805
01:01:59,039 --> 01:02:02,960
young, I want people to about
me like like that's what it's about that.

806
01:02:04,440 --> 01:02:07,679
Oh, I want that lady in
her forties listening to my biography in

807
01:02:07,719 --> 01:02:15,440
the shower. But it's not necessarily
that I could give a shit if my

808
01:02:15,519 --> 01:02:19,960
name is swept to the wind after
I die, truly, But the things

809
01:02:20,039 --> 01:02:23,800
I'm fighting for as an individual still
have meaning that I hope there's a legacy

810
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:29,000
of the things that I think are
important that live on whether I live on

811
01:02:29,119 --> 01:02:31,320
personally in anyone's mind. And so
I think it's a great point just see

812
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:38,199
that legacy isn't just this super self
involved bullshit can be this more beautiful something

813
01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:43,400
is leaving behind me, even if
I am not, and it can be

814
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:49,039
a connection again to the meaning of
my suffering. If there is something greater

815
01:02:49,119 --> 01:02:52,920
than myself. However I define that, however that's define, whether it's through

816
01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:59,559
the cultural definition of this is how
we are seen as worthy to ride in

817
01:02:59,760 --> 01:03:05,519
the halls of our fathers and be
seen with the ancestors looking down on us,

818
01:03:05,679 --> 01:03:09,360
or for other people to enjoy the
shire like we have, or the

819
01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:16,880
conversation Gandolf has with Pippin when even
he is believing that the battle is lost,

820
01:03:17,119 --> 01:03:22,480
where he's comforting Pippin that death isn't
so bad. It's not something you

821
01:03:22,519 --> 01:03:25,079
need to fear. Now we can
look upon it and smile. He was

822
01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:30,440
very, very Marcus Aurelius philosophy.
There. All we can do is smile

823
01:03:30,519 --> 01:03:32,960
back, that death isn't so bad, it's not something to fear, and

824
01:03:32,960 --> 01:03:37,840
we can be brave and fight our
fight. Now. Let's not crumple here

825
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:42,039
and make this our end, but
let's embrace it. And watching the different

826
01:03:42,039 --> 01:03:46,159
ways that this movie alone showed the
importance what you're saying, Britty, Yes,

827
01:03:46,199 --> 01:03:50,559
people are abandoning religion. Religion has
been used to hurt people in a

828
01:03:50,599 --> 01:03:53,559
great many ways. To quote the
greatest philosophers ever lived, George Carlin,

829
01:03:53,760 --> 01:03:57,159
more people have been killed in the
name of God than any other reason.

830
01:03:57,920 --> 01:04:01,280
But that doesn't mean we should abandon
spear, virtuality and a connection to things

831
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:06,119
that are bigger than us. However
that is defined. Whether that can be

832
01:04:06,199 --> 01:04:11,199
through the lens of one religion or
another is irrelevant to the land of the

833
01:04:11,199 --> 01:04:15,599
therapist, who needs to sit with
the client and help them find and understand

834
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:21,480
their reasons to keep on when they're
in immense pain, and how to make

835
01:04:21,599 --> 01:04:27,440
meaning of their suffering, to provide
purpose to their life, and how people

836
01:04:27,599 --> 01:04:30,599
define that. Even as we see
the different cultures across this movie, Grapple

837
01:04:30,679 --> 01:04:36,639
with Doom is completely subjective, and
it's okay to operate within the realm of

838
01:04:36,679 --> 01:04:40,639
the speaker and let that be in
our world, let it be within the

839
01:04:40,679 --> 01:04:45,000
realm of the client without needing to
correct or modify or reframe anything other than

840
01:04:45,039 --> 01:04:49,960
helping them connect to how do you
define yourr own meaning and reasons for keeping

841
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:56,639
on within this, whether that's through
the metaphorical charge of a thousand orcs in

842
01:04:56,800 --> 01:05:01,639
Roquai and just in case we thought
we were doing giant elephants with spike tusks

843
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:12,920
and holy fant please, they're clearly
a different species. Yes, is evidenced

844
01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:19,039
by four tusks and ginormousness. Can
I share a sad story? Yes,

845
01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:24,880
what a beautiful story about a client
who I will not name, obviously,

846
01:05:25,039 --> 01:05:30,679
but a client who was dying and
who did not have a faith tradition of

847
01:05:30,719 --> 01:05:35,000
their own. So some of the
work that we did was I said to

848
01:05:35,079 --> 01:05:38,960
them, you know, they're like, I'm dealing with this pretty well,

849
01:05:39,000 --> 01:05:42,880
but I don't know what happens after
And I said, well, if if

850
01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:46,199
you don't believe in anything specific,
then anything is possible. And so what

851
01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:49,320
are the stories that help you make
meaning of your life? And Lord of

852
01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:55,519
the Rings was one of them.
And so we fan fixed the afterlife for

853
01:05:55,719 --> 01:05:59,960
that client to be that the curtain
can roll back and there will be white

854
01:06:00,079 --> 01:06:04,079
shores. And so did that person
really believe that was what was going to

855
01:06:04,159 --> 01:06:08,960
happen? I don't. I don't
know. Was it just a pretty metaphor

856
01:06:09,079 --> 01:06:14,760
maybe? But it helped ease their
transition from this world to the next.

857
01:06:14,960 --> 01:06:19,960
So stories matter, they do they
do in connection to some kind of reason

858
01:06:20,119 --> 01:06:26,800
why you're going through something and what
you're trading for, and sometimes that can

859
01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:31,480
be the pain of knowing that you're
terminal. But I think that's a beautiful

860
01:06:31,519 --> 01:06:35,639
way to let something that provided meaning
to them or reasons they did not yet

861
01:06:35,719 --> 01:06:44,920
understand now bridge into something immediately relevant. Probably helps that person a great deal.

862
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:48,360
Realized that even if I don't have
a predetermined narrative that I've been preached

863
01:06:48,519 --> 01:06:54,400
to believe, I can find one
that's been relevant to me and choose to

864
01:06:54,519 --> 01:06:57,480
believe it's going to go that way
and find peace in that. And I

865
01:06:57,480 --> 01:07:02,599
think that's exactly what Gandalf did for
Mary. Yeah, and watching that happen

866
01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:06,400
was beautiful as I'm sure that interaction
was with your client, and while you're

867
01:07:06,519 --> 01:07:11,400
remembering it, I'm sure it helped
that person tremendously face but they knew they

868
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:15,639
were facing hopefully it was. It
was impactful to me too, you know,

869
01:07:15,800 --> 01:07:20,679
I was the Gandolf in this situation, um, and it was very

870
01:07:20,719 --> 01:07:28,760
impactful for me to see someone facing
the hardest thing we all face and saying

871
01:07:29,519 --> 01:07:33,519
I think this would help me,
Like, Okay, that's amazing. Yeah,

872
01:07:33,639 --> 01:07:39,960
we pulled a modern mythology out that's
helping you ease your transition to what

873
01:07:40,119 --> 01:07:44,880
comes next, which is that ass
right you don't just you know, think

874
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:47,719
you get to make a new bumper
sticker that can co opt an old one

875
01:07:48,079 --> 01:07:51,679
one of the Internet's favorite phrases,
if you if you can be anybody,

876
01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:55,480
be Batman. But now you can
say, if you can be anybody,

877
01:07:55,599 --> 01:08:00,599
be Gandolf. I would much rather
be Gandolf than Batman. Hear that girl

878
01:08:00,599 --> 01:08:05,760
from an easy choice, honestly wizard
or rich guy in a rubber suit.

879
01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:12,559
Yeah, you know, self actualized
person or you know, messy, messy

880
01:08:12,679 --> 01:08:16,439
adolescent boy with too many resources and
not enough people telling him, Hey girl,

881
01:08:18,239 --> 01:08:26,239
what's this about. But to get
to be Gandolf and help someone deal

882
01:08:26,279 --> 01:08:30,680
with their own invading army of forks
is pretty cool. And to be able

883
01:08:30,720 --> 01:08:35,000
to do that within the framework of
the book you wrote, which came from

884
01:08:35,039 --> 01:08:41,880
your treatment the artical orientations actualize into
something meaningful you is even cooler. You

885
01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:45,960
can read more about that story in
The Grieving Therapist. Caring for yourself and

886
01:08:45,000 --> 01:08:49,039
your clients When it feels like the
end of the wor feel very am radio

887
01:08:49,039 --> 01:08:56,000
of you in like a very fun
way, before. Have you very gross

888
01:08:56,119 --> 01:09:00,479
call me? Yes, I think
it's such as a powerful thing in the

889
01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:03,640
story of watching just watching people,
and what draws us to these is what

890
01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:06,960
would I do if it's what makes
zombie story so interesting? What would I

891
01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:12,920
do if this happened. Hopefully die
quickly in a zombie apocalypse, oh god,

892
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:16,640
not be eaten slowly by a horde. Yes, I've thought about this.

893
01:09:16,640 --> 01:09:23,119
This is literally why I train at
the gym. My trainer has every

894
01:09:23,399 --> 01:09:27,840
every time he redoes my training plan, it has something to do with the

895
01:09:28,079 --> 01:09:32,039
zombie apocalypse because he's because I'm like, that's the only way I'm showing up

896
01:09:32,079 --> 01:09:34,960
and working out. If I'm running, I better be chased. Well,

897
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:39,119
in this metaphor, you are certainly
being chased by something that wants to eat

898
01:09:39,159 --> 01:09:43,199
you. Just for the record,
but I think something you're bringing up,

899
01:09:43,199 --> 01:09:46,920
Ben, in this idea of going
quote unquote towards your death is that resolution.

900
01:09:47,039 --> 01:09:49,560
You know. We see that with
sam even though they make it through,

901
01:09:49,680 --> 01:09:53,039
and I mean a lot of them
make it through, not everybody,

902
01:09:53,079 --> 01:09:58,560
but and it reminds me of when
I practice radical acceptance with clients of how

903
01:09:58,640 --> 01:10:03,520
do we find meaning and what is
actually possible? And practice like radical acceptance

904
01:10:03,560 --> 01:10:11,359
around what is no longer in our
control or no longer the direction we are

905
01:10:11,399 --> 01:10:15,039
heading into. We have to move
forward instead of hitting our head against a

906
01:10:15,079 --> 01:10:18,680
wall that's never going to become a
door. And so I think bringing this

907
01:10:18,760 --> 01:10:21,680
back into the work I do is
I think that's a big part of it

908
01:10:21,760 --> 01:10:27,479
is practicing radical acceptance. Not necessarily
about like marching towards your death when I

909
01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:30,760
talk to my clients, but I
think it helps. It can help us

910
01:10:30,960 --> 01:10:36,399
find meaning and what's actually happening,
versus getting stuck on what's no longer available

911
01:10:36,680 --> 01:10:43,600
and then feeling just getting stuck in
that antagonistic space within ourselves of trying to

912
01:10:43,640 --> 01:10:48,279
make something movable or control something that
is no longer controllable. Because though they

913
01:10:48,279 --> 01:10:51,000
do make it out Salmon Frodo,
I think in that scene where he's like

914
01:10:51,039 --> 01:10:56,399
when we make an out of here, is he is practicing radical acceptance and

915
01:10:56,479 --> 01:11:01,600
trying to find peace with the situation
they're in instead of being miserable in the

916
01:11:01,680 --> 01:11:06,399
last moments potentially of his life.
And that is, Yeah, that's an

917
01:11:06,439 --> 01:11:11,720
actual practice that I bring into the
work I do, And it helps you

918
01:11:11,760 --> 01:11:15,760
to be present and to be mindful
kind of what you were saying, like

919
01:11:15,840 --> 01:11:18,920
going into battle for these characters is
that you have to be actively present,

920
01:11:19,000 --> 01:11:24,600
actively mindful, and radical sepings can
also help with that too, a big

921
01:11:24,720 --> 01:11:30,439
radical acceptance curly yep, it helps. It helps in these situations tremendously to

922
01:11:30,520 --> 01:11:36,199
be able to radically accept a great
many things very quickly, which is that

923
01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:41,960
you may be about to die,
but if you're gonna die, how are

924
01:11:41,960 --> 01:11:45,079
you going to go out? That
appeals to some people like you see Gandolf

925
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:48,039
I get again that. You see
these people their morales starting to break,

926
01:11:48,039 --> 01:11:54,039
and somebody draws them back to their
values m which is what j Scene has

927
01:11:54,039 --> 01:11:56,800
been hitting really hard. That draws
them back to their values, that brings

928
01:11:56,840 --> 01:12:03,479
them out of their individuality and back
into the collectivism of these collective unconscious right

929
01:12:03,520 --> 01:12:08,640
like they're tapping back into this we
are doing this together. And the group

930
01:12:08,680 --> 01:12:11,399
think is an example of that.
But group think is usually used in bad

931
01:12:11,520 --> 01:12:15,880
terms, but group think can also
result in amazing things happening, And you

932
01:12:15,920 --> 01:12:19,439
see Gandolf redirect or attention to it. No matter what comes through those gates,

933
01:12:19,640 --> 01:12:24,800
you will stand your ground. You
are soldiers of Gondor. He is

934
01:12:24,880 --> 01:12:30,159
redirecting them back to their oath,
to their meaning, to how they define

935
01:12:30,199 --> 01:12:33,000
themselves in the world, their social
roles, all of these things that have

936
01:12:33,079 --> 01:12:40,479
provided purpose for them against the worst
odds, and it helps them temporarily suspend

937
01:12:40,520 --> 01:12:45,600
their connection to the parts of them
that have any desire to keep themselves alive

938
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:48,520
and focus only on what needs to
be done. That's really important to understand

939
01:12:48,520 --> 01:12:55,560
about how heroism develops, because people
must suspend their connection to that or they

940
01:12:55,600 --> 01:13:00,000
won't be able to do what needs
to be done, including sacrificing their own

941
01:13:00,119 --> 01:13:03,399
life. There's story after story of
people, including one Medal of Honor winner

942
01:13:03,439 --> 01:13:09,439
who threw himself on a grenade to
save his entire patrol. He had half

943
01:13:09,479 --> 01:13:13,800
a second to decide whether he was
gonna take that blaster everyone was, and

944
01:13:13,840 --> 01:13:15,720
he decided in that moment, I
will take this so that they can go

945
01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:20,159
home. And how you make such
an impossible decision must require you to suspend

946
01:13:20,479 --> 01:13:26,560
the idea that your life is more
important than everyone else's. Your belief is

947
01:13:26,600 --> 01:13:29,800
in reality, and watching that happen
over and over again in this movie and

948
01:13:29,920 --> 01:13:34,239
every myth is fascinating to me.
Battle has a way of breaking people out

949
01:13:34,359 --> 01:13:40,279
of the egocentrism that they go into
it with that I'm going to come home.

950
01:13:40,520 --> 01:13:44,880
I know that I am here as
a highly trained, highly skilled individual,

951
01:13:44,920 --> 01:13:47,920
carrying these weapons and wearing armor to
end the lives of my enemies.

952
01:13:48,079 --> 01:13:54,119
But because of egocentrism, people they
don't understand and can't fathom that. You

953
01:13:54,199 --> 01:13:56,960
know, the guy on the other
side, he's doing the same thing you

954
01:13:57,000 --> 01:13:59,279
are and wants the same thing you
are, which is to go home,

955
01:13:59,479 --> 01:14:02,079
and he will kill you to do
that. I think it's fascinating to watch

956
01:14:02,319 --> 01:14:08,199
and understand that there's moments in battles
where even that gets destroyed and you realize

957
01:14:08,520 --> 01:14:12,279
that the idea that it can't happen
to me not true, and you have

958
01:14:12,319 --> 01:14:15,760
to deal with that and still keep
going. And I think that's where these

959
01:14:15,760 --> 01:14:17,880
stories I'll get interesting. We can
see it with that, or Commander stand

960
01:14:17,920 --> 01:14:25,119
your ground to a giant piece of
wall gets trepashated him and even he realizes

961
01:14:25,159 --> 01:14:29,000
that no matter how tough and badass
and goofy looking you are, and how

962
01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:31,479
many grizzled battles you've seen in a
Viteran you are, and how do you

963
01:14:31,520 --> 01:14:34,960
deal with that and still keep going
and not turn and run the other way.

964
01:14:35,199 --> 01:14:39,079
I have to find something within yourself
to suspend a lot of parts.

965
01:14:39,279 --> 01:14:44,279
All right, anything else about purpose
and heroism before we switch over to treatment?

966
01:14:44,720 --> 01:14:45,920
All right, we will take another
break here, all right? Who

967
01:14:45,920 --> 01:14:55,000
wants to go first with treatment?
I'll go. Professor Justine steps up to

968
01:14:55,039 --> 01:15:03,000
the plate, him taking after young
Uh the book I'm currently listening to.

969
01:15:03,079 --> 01:15:10,760
Okay, So I have I have
chosen to do family therapy with denne Thor

970
01:15:10,880 --> 01:15:15,560
and Pharamer. I am imagining a
world in which we get to them before

971
01:15:16,199 --> 01:15:25,119
Dennithor loses his marbles and tries to
burn them both alive. Sure, so

972
01:15:25,399 --> 01:15:32,640
you know what, I come intervene
before denne Thor sends Pharomere back to protect

973
01:15:32,760 --> 01:15:39,520
the already lost area, and I
come in, and I would be curious

974
01:15:39,600 --> 01:15:45,039
with them. Have we grieved for
Boromere? And the answer is no,

975
01:15:45,920 --> 01:15:49,880
because we just found out Boomer is
dead? You know, in one of

976
01:15:49,880 --> 01:15:55,000
my favorite scenes with Gandolph and Pippin, and Gandolf's like, it's better you

977
01:15:55,039 --> 01:15:58,920
don't mention anything about Boomer dying.
Also, don't say anything about Frod or

978
01:15:58,960 --> 01:16:03,880
the ring any better if you don't
say anything at all. Absolutely, we

979
01:16:04,000 --> 01:16:08,520
all have that friend. Oh,
yes, for sure. But you know,

980
01:16:08,560 --> 01:16:11,039
we get in there and we find
out, oh, you just found

981
01:16:11,079 --> 01:16:14,479
out that your son is dead.
And then Gandolf, in one of his

982
01:16:15,279 --> 01:16:20,119
less classy moments, he's like,
you can grieve for born here later we

983
01:16:20,199 --> 01:16:30,439
need some stuff. I was like
like, I like, that's a big

984
01:16:30,520 --> 01:16:33,439
yikes right there. We don't even
have a we're sorry for your loss,

985
01:16:34,680 --> 01:16:40,800
you know. So I'd like to
take a moment to sit down with them

986
01:16:40,920 --> 01:16:45,960
and say, hey, you know, Denne Thor, I'm guessing Pharamir is

987
01:16:45,000 --> 01:16:49,039
also sad that his brother has died. Has that occurred to you? And

988
01:16:49,159 --> 01:16:54,279
he would say no, because I
don't think Denni Thor has thought outside of

989
01:16:54,399 --> 01:16:59,079
himself maybe ever. Yeah, And
I'm going to speculate that's because of trauma

990
01:16:59,119 --> 01:17:02,479
in his earlier life. I can't
prove that, but but I'm gonna okay,

991
01:17:02,520 --> 01:17:05,640
because I don't know is Denna Thoran
that's summarillion. I don't know.

992
01:17:05,880 --> 01:17:12,039
He might be in the appendices somewhere. Someone will write and tell us someone

993
01:17:12,199 --> 01:17:15,359
so yeah, someone will be like, um, so here's Denni Thor's early

994
01:17:15,640 --> 01:17:19,960
childhood trauma? Or is Daniel Hand
He'll know Okay, great, so someone

995
01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:24,840
will write us. But I'm guessing
that he had his own childhood trauma which

996
01:17:24,920 --> 01:17:30,960
led him to feel like he needed
to really become something great, and so

997
01:17:30,399 --> 01:17:35,800
he becomes the steward of Gondor and
it becomes his entire identity. Right,

998
01:17:36,199 --> 01:17:42,199
So I'd be curious to know from
Danna Thor what what was it like for

999
01:17:42,239 --> 01:17:45,800
you to be a kid Jeff siblings? What were your parents like? Can

1000
01:17:45,840 --> 01:17:49,800
you tell that to Farremere? Has
Farremre ever heard about your family of origin?

1001
01:17:50,000 --> 01:17:54,039
To which Farremre would be like,
this dude has never spoken to me

1002
01:17:54,520 --> 01:17:56,840
other than to tell me I'm a
piece of shit. I'd be like,

1003
01:17:57,239 --> 01:18:01,840
okay, yeah, Danna Or do
you hear the do you hear your son's

1004
01:18:01,840 --> 01:18:06,680
experience of you? How's that feel? So? I just want to I

1005
01:18:06,760 --> 01:18:11,199
want them to be able to share
their stories, the stories of their lives,

1006
01:18:11,720 --> 01:18:15,960
and see each other as people and
start to be able to find maybe

1007
01:18:16,000 --> 01:18:21,239
not a swath of compassion, but
some compassion points for one another, and

1008
01:18:21,359 --> 01:18:29,119
from those compassion points, hopefully we
could keep ourselves from having a break with

1009
01:18:29,239 --> 01:18:35,399
reality and trying to burn ourselves alive. And uh yeah, that's that's where

1010
01:18:35,399 --> 01:18:39,800
I'd start my work with them.
That sounds like some really good, deep

1011
01:18:39,920 --> 01:18:42,920
work, And I think you would
be able to get some really cool movement

1012
01:18:43,159 --> 01:18:47,479
or some really powerful individual sessions out
of Faremere later if that went poorly,

1013
01:18:48,119 --> 01:18:51,399
Yeah, I mean, I think
it's probably very likely that Dena Thor would

1014
01:18:51,399 --> 01:19:01,760
fire me. But careful with your
words there, Justine, bring me some

1015
01:19:01,840 --> 01:19:10,760
sticks in oil. Oh I was
not thinking that. Yeah, dennith Or

1016
01:19:10,800 --> 01:19:15,960
would send for the guards and I
would be I would be burned. That

1017
01:19:15,960 --> 01:19:18,399
would be upsetting. No, I
think he would just cast me out and

1018
01:19:18,439 --> 01:19:26,159
tell me to die in whatever way
I saw fit. Another favorite scene.

1019
01:19:28,640 --> 01:19:31,880
Yeah, but I think this would
help Farremere. Even if Denneth Thor couldn't

1020
01:19:32,079 --> 01:19:35,720
make a lot of a lot of
movement, we'd at least be able to

1021
01:19:35,720 --> 01:19:42,199
help Farremere. And in that way, maybe he and a Owen could start

1022
01:19:42,239 --> 01:19:46,039
their relationship in a nice spot.
Probably would recommend some couples for them.

1023
01:19:46,079 --> 01:19:49,319
Just you know, he's going to
be joining a new family, They've got

1024
01:19:49,359 --> 01:19:57,039
some new cultural stuff. She just
got out of being head over heels for

1025
01:19:57,159 --> 01:20:01,840
the King of Man. So you
know, there's some works don't feel a

1026
01:20:01,840 --> 01:20:08,159
little by that, don't feel that
doesn't bring up any threatening feelings. Right,

1027
01:20:08,199 --> 01:20:10,720
It's not like he's the king of
all men. Oh, he is

1028
01:20:13,840 --> 01:20:21,079
just like just unreasonably handsome. He
is Vego Mortenson is one of those crimes

1029
01:20:21,159 --> 01:20:27,000
up good yes actors saying right,
I didn't like his clean look at the

1030
01:20:27,079 --> 01:20:30,239
end. I was like, Greece, no, give me a grimes up

1031
01:20:30,279 --> 01:20:38,039
good like you know, and dirty
and he's sure to be open, you

1032
01:20:38,079 --> 01:20:40,960
know. I mean, you just
rolled down a hill. Okay, I

1033
01:20:40,960 --> 01:20:47,319
guess sexy raccoon. Yes, I
got some garbage for him, you trash

1034
01:20:47,399 --> 01:20:54,600
panda. Um. I think it's
powerful. I just I think. I

1035
01:20:54,600 --> 01:20:56,840
think just anything that's powerful, I
think it's good. I think the only

1036
01:20:56,920 --> 01:21:00,199
thing I wanted to add to that
is just those those sessions where you have

1037
01:21:00,279 --> 01:21:04,439
the family, sessions where it can
go bad sometimes are really important because they

1038
01:21:04,439 --> 01:21:09,560
can help people get unstuck, yeah, from the reality of like well what

1039
01:21:09,600 --> 01:21:14,720
if my dad just find it gets
it together and like yeah, no ya

1040
01:21:15,239 --> 01:21:18,319
talk about radical acceptance, Yeah right, let's have it thrust in our face.

1041
01:21:18,359 --> 01:21:23,920
That that reality gets shattered sometimes is
the thing that people need. And

1042
01:21:23,960 --> 01:21:27,680
I think those are powerful, even
if it's devastating. Sometimes sometimes we need

1043
01:21:27,720 --> 01:21:30,760
to be devastated, and we protect
ourselves from the devastation thinking we can't survive

1044
01:21:30,800 --> 01:21:33,840
it, and it's false. You
came with everything you need to survive anything.

1045
01:21:33,960 --> 01:21:39,520
But those moments sometimes are really painful
to watch, but also create movement.

1046
01:21:39,640 --> 01:21:43,600
Yeah, shake up the system of
One of my favorite marriage and family

1047
01:21:43,640 --> 01:21:47,239
therapists is Carl Whitaker. He was
an experiential family therapist and his whole thing

1048
01:21:47,359 --> 01:21:50,840
was all about shaking up systems.
He would he would throw frisbees at people.

1049
01:21:51,560 --> 01:21:56,119
He would get out the bataka sticks
and have people like hit each other,

1050
01:21:56,880 --> 01:21:59,560
you know, not actually hurt each
other, but you know, just

1051
01:21:59,600 --> 01:22:01,880
like, hey, let's just show
up and let's just be in this ship

1052
01:22:02,239 --> 01:22:05,039
and let's throw something at it and
see what happens. I threw a frisbee

1053
01:22:05,039 --> 01:22:09,840
at you. Now what you know
for it? Let's just do something totally

1054
01:22:09,880 --> 01:22:12,920
different than what you usually do and
see what happens. It's either guy the

1055
01:22:12,960 --> 01:22:15,079
Simpsons writers got their hands on in
the first season or they were like shocking

1056
01:22:15,119 --> 01:22:17,800
each other and beating each other with
foam bats and like figuring out how to

1057
01:22:17,800 --> 01:22:26,079
take the foam off the bat.
Maybe it was probably Whittaker inspired. Yeah,

1058
01:22:27,039 --> 01:22:30,199
I call him the honey Badger of
Merriton Family Therapy. I'm here for

1059
01:22:30,279 --> 01:22:32,840
it, man, would you like
to go next? Sure? So I

1060
01:22:32,960 --> 01:22:38,640
think for me the person I would
want to do therapy with would be Sam

1061
01:22:38,680 --> 01:22:43,079
after Frodo leaves to get on the
ship. Because the way Frodo did that,

1062
01:22:43,720 --> 01:22:45,600
Me and my buddy were discussing it
as we were watching. He's like,

1063
01:22:45,680 --> 01:22:46,439
I don't know, man, that's
like, that's a clean break.

1064
01:22:46,760 --> 01:22:50,399
I mean what he did that that
way to let people not nag him and

1065
01:22:50,439 --> 01:22:53,680
trying to talk him out of what
he wanted to do the whole time.

1066
01:22:53,680 --> 01:22:56,039
And I was like, well,
that in a metaphor for some things that

1067
01:22:56,079 --> 01:23:00,000
we talk about therapy, and but
anyway, rather than avoid trigger warnings,

1068
01:23:00,199 --> 01:23:08,039
looking at how important that is to
understand, Sam just had no warning.

1069
01:23:08,119 --> 01:23:13,239
Grief dropped on him. And you
don't get any opportunity to pre grief like

1070
01:23:13,359 --> 01:23:15,439
you do when you know someone is
dying. You go through a lot of

1071
01:23:15,520 --> 01:23:19,159
steps of pre grief or just flat
grief materia. You want to look at

1072
01:23:19,199 --> 01:23:21,800
it, I look at it is
like you get opportunity to start grieving early

1073
01:23:21,800 --> 01:23:26,399
when you realize someone is terminally ill, and you get the opportunity to start

1074
01:23:26,720 --> 01:23:30,239
moving through that process. As you
watch them succumb to the illness, you

1075
01:23:30,239 --> 01:23:34,000
watch them look thin, you see
them not talking anymore, not eating anymore.

1076
01:23:34,000 --> 01:23:38,039
They start to not look like themselves, and it gets easier to accept

1077
01:23:38,079 --> 01:23:41,880
that you're going to lose them for
many cases but not all. But Frodo

1078
01:23:42,439 --> 01:23:45,359
kind of robbed them of that.
He just was like, Yeah, I'm

1079
01:23:45,399 --> 01:23:48,399
going to see hugs all around it
and buy I love you, guys,

1080
01:23:48,399 --> 01:23:54,479
but I gotta go. I think
Sam, despite having all the resources set

1081
01:23:54,560 --> 01:23:57,800
up in the world, by actualizing
and going right up to that girl and

1082
01:23:57,880 --> 01:24:00,720
doing exactly the thing he said,
I'm gonna go right to Rosie and tell

1083
01:24:00,720 --> 01:24:01,479
her I love her and ask her
to marry me. And he did.

1084
01:24:01,680 --> 01:24:05,720
He did, and she said yes. And despite him having children and a

1085
01:24:05,800 --> 01:24:10,279
home and a whole life to look
on and Frodo giving him those words,

1086
01:24:10,720 --> 01:24:14,079
things are not so simple as the
person leaving told me, it's okay to

1087
01:24:14,119 --> 01:24:16,560
have a life if that's his love. We were debating kind of off Mike

1088
01:24:16,640 --> 01:24:20,079
here in a little break that as
we're doing research that the blood is thicker

1089
01:24:20,119 --> 01:24:26,159
than water quote some people some scholars, although a note it was uncited said

1090
01:24:26,199 --> 01:24:30,359
that that quote was actually referring to
the bonds you form when you bleed with

1091
01:24:30,399 --> 01:24:33,479
people and go through war, and
that that is thicker than any other relationship.

1092
01:24:33,520 --> 01:24:38,600
And in the terms of the context
of this film, that's taken as

1093
01:24:38,600 --> 01:24:43,000
a truth, Sam wouldn't need a
lot of help reframing his new meaning and

1094
01:24:43,079 --> 01:24:46,760
finding acceptance in it while letting go
and grieving the loss of Froto, because

1095
01:24:46,880 --> 01:24:51,800
he is going to be losing the
connection to the person who understands him the

1096
01:24:51,880 --> 01:24:57,239
best. That person can unfortunately,
never be Rosie, as we already established,

1097
01:24:57,640 --> 01:25:00,680
no matter what past Sam she knew
or present Sam, she knows,

1098
01:25:01,239 --> 01:25:05,199
there is no one else there who
knows Sam like Frodo, and there's no

1099
01:25:05,239 --> 01:25:09,600
one there that Sam loves like Frodo. And he's going to be losing that

1100
01:25:09,640 --> 01:25:13,159
part of himself, that understanding,
and as he reckons with the brokenness,

1101
01:25:13,159 --> 01:25:16,640
though by the narrative armor he's protected
by, he's less affective than Froto was.

1102
01:25:16,680 --> 01:25:20,760
I don't think Sam is part of
the wounds that have settled in,

1103
01:25:20,800 --> 01:25:24,720
but in reality he would have them. He would have them, and this

1104
01:25:24,720 --> 01:25:27,960
would be a very difficult thing.
So I think a lot of existential work

1105
01:25:28,239 --> 01:25:30,319
would be the direction I would want
to go of. How are you redefining

1106
01:25:30,319 --> 01:25:34,239
your meaning now? How are you
finding meaning in what you've done while not

1107
01:25:34,359 --> 01:25:40,039
having to let go of what you
did and the person you became to save

1108
01:25:40,199 --> 01:25:44,119
the world that your children are never
going to know or care about. That

1109
01:25:44,159 --> 01:25:47,760
you don't lose that because you're assuming
this new identity and let you find meaning

1110
01:25:47,800 --> 01:25:51,760
that you did all that to have
this and how we work through those I

1111
01:25:51,760 --> 01:25:55,199
think would be where I'd want to
go. It wouldn't necessarily need to be

1112
01:25:55,760 --> 01:25:58,359
what I would usually say would be
trauma trauma, trauma trauma, let's do

1113
01:25:58,479 --> 01:26:00,039
some deep trauma work, I think
more. Or this would be how are

1114
01:26:00,039 --> 01:26:04,319
we going to find meaning and acceptance
that what all that I did was for

1115
01:26:04,439 --> 01:26:09,119
something? But I don't have to
let it all go or the post traumatic

1116
01:26:09,119 --> 01:26:13,239
growth go. I can incorporate all
of that into a new identity that uses

1117
01:26:13,399 --> 01:26:15,960
everything I've been to be the version
of me I want to be, a

1118
01:26:16,119 --> 01:26:20,199
need to be for this reality,
and that's who I would pick. Okay,

1119
01:26:20,279 --> 01:26:26,600
I can go next. I think
I would work with Frodo, just

1120
01:26:26,680 --> 01:26:31,239
because he was really reminding me of
I've worked with multiple people at this point

1121
01:26:31,479 --> 01:26:36,640
that have had cancer and now they're
in remission or in recovery or whatever however

1122
01:26:36,640 --> 01:26:41,760
we want to think of it.
And a common theme that comes up is

1123
01:26:42,199 --> 01:26:46,720
I thought I would feel different.
I thought I would feel grateful or alive

1124
01:26:46,880 --> 01:26:53,119
or full of joy, and I
don't. And so now I feel how

1125
01:26:53,159 --> 01:26:57,199
I feel, and then an added
layer of what's wrong with me that I

1126
01:26:57,279 --> 01:27:00,479
don't feel better? Different relief ticks
I did, full of life whatever,

1127
01:27:00,760 --> 01:27:09,239
And I think protos the little excerpt
of photo after more Door pre Ship reminding

1128
01:27:09,319 --> 01:27:15,399
me of that in this idea,
that we will feel miraculously different. Either

1129
01:27:15,439 --> 01:27:19,439
we'll snap back to who were before
something hard happened to us, or we

1130
01:27:19,479 --> 01:27:24,920
will feel so grateful that the thing
is over that will almost be like an

1131
01:27:25,000 --> 01:27:30,720
uber, joyful, alive lived in
person and then being really hard on ourselves

1132
01:27:30,720 --> 01:27:35,600
when we're not, and also not
allowing ourselves to integrate who we are now

1133
01:27:35,840 --> 01:27:40,000
and all the things that happened to
us up to this point. And so

1134
01:27:40,039 --> 01:27:43,119
with him, I think I would
just want to do that kind of work

1135
01:27:43,199 --> 01:27:45,479
that I do. It's a lot
of processing, kind of telling the story,

1136
01:27:45,560 --> 01:27:50,920
so it can be sort of narrative
in nature and my job in those

1137
01:27:51,279 --> 01:27:56,800
situations, I think is a therapist
is a lot of reframing and giving permission

1138
01:27:57,159 --> 01:28:00,439
to not feel a type of way
because you think you should. And so

1139
01:28:00,479 --> 01:28:03,239
a lot times in that space,
it's just me helping people form who they

1140
01:28:03,279 --> 01:28:08,039
actually feel like they are now and
get rid of the shoulds and do a

1141
01:28:08,079 --> 01:28:12,720
lot of thought challenging and that kind
of stuff. And yeah, I said,

1142
01:28:12,760 --> 01:28:16,359
like give themselves permission to even grieve
who they were before and make space

1143
01:28:16,399 --> 01:28:20,199
for who they are now. And
that's not a bad thing to not be

1144
01:28:20,319 --> 01:28:25,720
who you were before. And actually
we're maybe causing a lot of undue suffering

1145
01:28:25,920 --> 01:28:29,000
trying to be that person and feeling
fake, and I think that can be

1146
01:28:29,319 --> 01:28:33,560
what can push people to isolate themselves
like maybe Frodo was doing, because they're

1147
01:28:33,560 --> 01:28:38,239
not feeling home anymore. So a
part of it is grieving what home used

1148
01:28:38,239 --> 01:28:42,720
to feel like, then changing what
it is to feel at home again and

1149
01:28:42,760 --> 01:28:45,520
that that can be a brand new
feeling while also acknowledging the grief that comes

1150
01:28:45,600 --> 01:28:50,560
from the nostalgic feeling of home and
just reclaiming that that can be, like

1151
01:28:50,560 --> 01:28:55,560
I said, very narrative in nature
and exploratory. That's kind of more like

1152
01:28:55,600 --> 01:28:59,640
the talk therapy route. For it's
very it can just be spitballing back and

1153
01:28:59,680 --> 01:29:02,119
forth like what could who are we
now? I try to remind people that

1154
01:29:02,279 --> 01:29:05,760
I don't have any preconceived notions and
no one's going to hear anything they're saying

1155
01:29:05,760 --> 01:29:10,680
in my office. So you can
really be free if you feel comfortable in

1156
01:29:10,760 --> 01:29:15,800
whatever you want to express, and
if that is feeling ungrateful and how hard

1157
01:29:15,840 --> 01:29:20,920
that feels, and all the kind
of messy quote unquote ugly feelings that fly

1158
01:29:21,000 --> 01:29:25,439
in the face of the cute scene
narrative. We see a lot in media

1159
01:29:25,760 --> 01:29:30,079
that toxic positivity, in my opinion, a very anti toxic positivity, and

1160
01:29:30,239 --> 01:29:33,560
orange well also, But here's the
thing, it's not even thought of like

1161
01:29:33,600 --> 01:29:38,479
that. So I think sometimes my
job is to label things as toxically positive

1162
01:29:39,920 --> 01:29:43,720
and give that permission to people that
I work with. That is another version

1163
01:29:43,720 --> 01:29:47,279
of rigidity, and people who live
by those I don't know, Instagram kind

1164
01:29:47,279 --> 01:29:55,399
of lifestyles whatever. I'm always a
little you know, suspect of how they

1165
01:29:55,439 --> 01:29:58,880
really are feeling or this idea that
one size fits all. So it's just

1166
01:29:59,239 --> 01:30:01,840
a lot of challenge rigidity and that
kind of thing. So that's the work

1167
01:30:01,840 --> 01:30:05,199
I would do with froto, just
very open ended, very talking it through,

1168
01:30:05,720 --> 01:30:09,119
and also because I think it would
be hard for him. And why

1169
01:30:09,119 --> 01:30:11,720
it is good to go to therapy
when people say like, why don't you

1170
01:30:11,720 --> 01:30:15,760
just talk to your friends is like
I said, my role is I'm a

1171
01:30:15,840 --> 01:30:20,239
totally uninvolved party, so they don't
have to have any weird feelings of like

1172
01:30:20,359 --> 01:30:26,039
guilt or ungratitude or all the feelings
that can hold you back from being really

1173
01:30:26,079 --> 01:30:30,359
honest with friends. Sometimes especially friends
that were along with you. I would

1174
01:30:30,399 --> 01:30:34,279
imagine it would feel really hard to
be honest with Sam, especially since Sam

1175
01:30:34,359 --> 01:30:40,640
sacrificed so much almost his life to
get him through that. So then to

1176
01:30:40,720 --> 01:30:45,239
be honest with Sam that I'm not
really feeling it, like being alive isn't

1177
01:30:45,359 --> 01:30:49,520
doing it for me like it used
to would be so hard to say to

1178
01:30:49,560 --> 01:30:54,640
that person. So what's nice about
therapy is that you have a space with

1179
01:30:54,680 --> 01:30:59,439
someone who's not personally invested where you
can be really honest and I'm not gonna

1180
01:30:59,520 --> 01:31:02,399
and there's not going to be any
cloudiness around my relationship to it. I

1181
01:31:02,439 --> 01:31:06,119
don't have any attachment to whether you
feel grateful about being alive right now,

1182
01:31:06,279 --> 01:31:10,640
or if you feel grateful that you
live through whatever, And so I think

1183
01:31:10,680 --> 01:31:13,359
that's so I would be interested if
he could do that work, if or

1184
01:31:13,359 --> 01:31:15,720
he could have done that work,
if he needed to sail off at the

1185
01:31:15,880 --> 01:31:18,560
end like he did, maybe he
would have you know, you never know,

1186
01:31:18,680 --> 01:31:20,960
he might have always had to do
that at that time, or maybe

1187
01:31:21,000 --> 01:31:24,800
he wouldn't have had for a while, right, But it could have been

1188
01:31:24,840 --> 01:31:28,479
interesting to see if he would have
been able to shake that up for him,

1189
01:31:28,560 --> 01:31:30,920
because I think that's really hard.
People want to go back to home

1190
01:31:31,079 --> 01:31:35,960
whatever that meant to them, and
are really hard on themselves if they can't

1191
01:31:36,239 --> 01:31:40,199
be the person they used to be
to their detriment. It's just it can

1192
01:31:40,239 --> 01:31:42,920
be really sad, and it doesn't
have to be that way. So that's

1193
01:31:42,960 --> 01:31:46,399
what I would do with Frodo.
I think you're right on, and you

1194
01:31:46,439 --> 01:31:50,800
know the quotes that we shared earlier, right is you can't be the same

1195
01:31:50,840 --> 01:31:55,920
person you were after something happens to
you. You're the new version that had

1196
01:31:55,960 --> 01:31:59,560
that happened to you. Yeah,
but you're not broken or or a ruined

1197
01:31:59,680 --> 01:32:01,840
or damage or you can't have a
good life. I think people get stuck

1198
01:32:01,840 --> 01:32:05,119
on those really rigid concepts if they
can't be who they used to be,

1199
01:32:05,199 --> 01:32:08,560
and it's like, well, you
can just be a different version of yourself,

1200
01:32:08,600 --> 01:32:12,439
and that can also be very rad
if you let it be rad right,

1201
01:32:12,520 --> 01:32:15,000
you know. But that's where I'm
at, Hannah. Do you want

1202
01:32:15,000 --> 01:32:18,520
to take us home a treatment?
Yeah? So I thought about working with

1203
01:32:18,920 --> 01:32:26,520
Pharremere with the idea that his dad
died. Oh and so a part of

1204
01:32:26,560 --> 01:32:30,560
the reason why I wanted to work
with him is because he has now experienced

1205
01:32:30,600 --> 01:32:34,520
the loss of his brother and the
loss of his dad after this huge battle

1206
01:32:34,680 --> 01:32:39,600
that just happened, and so in
how intense that would be for him,

1207
01:32:39,600 --> 01:32:44,720
and how hard it would be for
him to maybe even to even attempt to

1208
01:32:44,800 --> 01:32:49,039
grieve for them, just because it
could feel so scary to have that part

1209
01:32:49,079 --> 01:32:51,800
of your those two biggest parts of
your life, and then to be in

1210
01:32:51,840 --> 01:32:56,239
a different position as well in the
kingdom. I'm not saying that he wouldn't

1211
01:32:56,279 --> 01:33:00,800
still be the captain of the armed
force people or whatever, but I would

1212
01:33:00,840 --> 01:33:03,319
imagine that he would be I'm sure
he would still have some role of some

1213
01:33:03,399 --> 01:33:08,920
kinds. Yeah, he'd still be
someone like, he'd be someone important,

1214
01:33:09,760 --> 01:33:13,159
but maybe he doesn't want to be
anymore. You know, it would be

1215
01:33:13,199 --> 01:33:17,239
really interesting to see where he is
and how he's feeling about again. You

1216
01:33:17,279 --> 01:33:20,439
know, the thing we've been talking
about the entire episode really is being able

1217
01:33:20,439 --> 01:33:24,479
to find meaning, and would he
be able to find meaning? And so

1218
01:33:24,520 --> 01:33:26,800
I think some of the things that
I would want to do with him is

1219
01:33:26,800 --> 01:33:30,920
just really make sure that I'm allowing
him to have the space that he needs

1220
01:33:30,000 --> 01:33:34,880
to grieve in whatever way he needs
to. And sometimes part of grieving is

1221
01:33:35,439 --> 01:33:40,920
reparenting yourself in some ways, and
we might have to do some work of

1222
01:33:41,000 --> 01:33:45,800
reparenting from the things that he didn't
get from Dinosaur and from things he never

1223
01:33:45,840 --> 01:33:50,680
got from him, and helping him
identify those things so that maybe he doesn't

1224
01:33:50,680 --> 01:33:55,880
fall into a pattern where he's seeking
out another relationship or where he doesn't know

1225
01:33:55,920 --> 01:33:59,159
how to act. Because we also
don't know what he will be like with

1226
01:33:59,319 --> 01:34:02,840
Rigorn, he might have the same
response that Boromir had and so which would

1227
01:34:02,880 --> 01:34:05,920
make a lot of sense because they
both come from the same family. So

1228
01:34:06,159 --> 01:34:10,840
I think it would really a lot
of our work would be around me making

1229
01:34:10,880 --> 01:34:14,159
sure that he has the space to
grieve for the things he needs to grieve

1230
01:34:14,159 --> 01:34:17,239
for and to help him find meaning
and to help him find to figure out

1231
01:34:17,279 --> 01:34:20,760
what he's going to be focused on
now and really what he wants his life

1232
01:34:20,800 --> 01:34:26,399
to look like, because these two
huge parts of his life are now gone

1233
01:34:26,520 --> 01:34:30,479
and he's in a new world in
so many different ways, as many as

1234
01:34:30,560 --> 01:34:34,359
you know most everybody is. But
I think that Baromir is in a position

1235
01:34:34,399 --> 01:34:40,239
where he could either try to shut
everything down and try to just move forward.

1236
01:34:40,640 --> 01:34:45,119
So knowing sometimes the culture of the
military in our system that we currently

1237
01:34:45,199 --> 01:34:50,439
have is that mental health isn't important
and you need to keep it to your

1238
01:34:50,439 --> 01:34:55,399
fucking self because we don't want to
hear about it, and if we hear

1239
01:34:55,439 --> 01:34:58,680
about it, you might also get
in trouble. There's a whole other set

1240
01:34:58,720 --> 01:35:01,479
of problems that comes with that.
So I think really wanting to allow him

1241
01:35:01,520 --> 01:35:05,800
to have that space, I think
would be really important and really encouraging him

1242
01:35:05,920 --> 01:35:11,359
to be connected to that part of
himself and that it's okay, and that

1243
01:35:11,439 --> 01:35:14,359
he needs to have time to grieve, and he needs to have time to

1244
01:35:14,399 --> 01:35:16,479
figure out who he is and what
he wants to do with the rest of

1245
01:35:16,479 --> 01:35:19,880
his life. Sorry to interrupting,
hid, I was just thinking, especially

1246
01:35:19,880 --> 01:35:23,960
now, if he's going to get
married and probably have kids of his own,

1247
01:35:24,560 --> 01:35:27,520
Like he's going to have to figure
out that family stuff or when he

1248
01:35:27,560 --> 01:35:31,600
becomes a father. Well, and
especially with someone who just actualized and in

1249
01:35:32,000 --> 01:35:36,640
set up herself to be the most
powerful version of herself that has existed,

1250
01:35:36,680 --> 01:35:40,720
the most liberated, the most free, the most powerful, free from the

1251
01:35:41,119 --> 01:35:45,880
roles that she had to ascribe and
fear of mers coming from a very different

1252
01:35:45,880 --> 01:35:49,199
place where he was broken, he
did the exact opposite. So those two

1253
01:35:49,239 --> 01:35:54,399
as a pair, O good luck. Yeah, I'm sure they would need

1254
01:35:54,439 --> 01:35:57,479
couples, Like Justine, I think, are you telling me they're not just

1255
01:35:57,520 --> 01:36:00,479
going to fall in love and then
everything will be fixed? Well, and

1256
01:36:00,720 --> 01:36:06,159
there'd be some power stuff because you
know, Aowen ascended to the throne of

1257
01:36:06,880 --> 01:36:13,560
Rohan, so and what does that
power structure look like with the king of

1258
01:36:13,640 --> 01:36:20,359
men? And you know what,
and then he's gonna have to go and

1259
01:36:20,439 --> 01:36:25,159
right he's inverse gentlemen. Yeah,
yeah, Like, and then he's gonna

1260
01:36:25,159 --> 01:36:28,119
have to go away from everything that
he knows, from the place that he

1261
01:36:28,159 --> 01:36:31,079
grew up at, also losing the
two people that have had the most impact

1262
01:36:31,159 --> 01:36:33,920
on him most likely. I mean
there's all different kinds of things that we

1263
01:36:33,960 --> 01:36:36,760
could be talking about. He doesn't, he doesn't have a very good self

1264
01:36:36,800 --> 01:36:42,039
care plan already. What's going to
do outside of his element? Right?

1265
01:36:42,119 --> 01:36:47,560
Yeah, exactly, And I mean
that might allow him to create space to

1266
01:36:47,640 --> 01:36:51,840
create a new version of himself,
but I think it would be it's a

1267
01:36:51,840 --> 01:36:56,880
trope, right, and that us
therapists all know that just because you go

1268
01:36:57,119 --> 01:37:02,880
someplace else does not mean all your
problems stay where you left them behind slash,

1269
01:37:03,000 --> 01:37:06,119
They come with you when you go
to this new place. I just

1270
01:37:06,159 --> 01:37:10,079
need to get some more different and
everything will be different. That's false.

1271
01:37:10,359 --> 01:37:14,000
Wherever you go there you are.
Yeah. It makes me think about too,

1272
01:37:14,079 --> 01:37:19,680
about soldiers who are deployed and are
in these really high stress situations and

1273
01:37:19,720 --> 01:37:25,279
then whatever happens happens, and then
they go back to where their base is,

1274
01:37:25,560 --> 01:37:29,439
back home for lack of a better
way to say it, and that

1275
01:37:29,479 --> 01:37:33,319
then you have to just pretend like
nothing happened in some ways and or just

1276
01:37:33,399 --> 01:37:36,760
try to find how you go on
from your life at this point. And

1277
01:37:36,840 --> 01:37:41,119
so it would be it's very similar
to that as well, where you're just

1278
01:37:41,159 --> 01:37:45,239
put back in a position where are
were you allowed to grieve. Were you

1279
01:37:45,319 --> 01:37:48,239
allowed to have time to transition.
I know the military pretends like they do

1280
01:37:48,279 --> 01:37:51,560
a good job of transitioning, but
I have two brothers in the military,

1281
01:37:51,560 --> 01:37:59,880
and I have yet to see it
go well. But it's not good enough.

1282
01:38:00,239 --> 01:38:02,319
It's not enough. It's definitely not
good enough. So yeah, so

1283
01:38:02,399 --> 01:38:05,319
that's what I would That's what I
would do for treatment. Okay, we'll

1284
01:38:05,319 --> 01:38:09,399
take a final break here and then
come back for final thoughts. All right,

1285
01:38:09,399 --> 01:38:14,840
I'll go first because I am the
least emotionally invested in this fandom,

1286
01:38:14,920 --> 01:38:17,319
so I feel like I should just
party poop first and then you guys can

1287
01:38:17,359 --> 01:38:23,279
pump it up by the end of
the Rings killed Joy, I mean I

1288
01:38:23,359 --> 01:38:25,840
never want to be killed Joy.
I said this many times. I said

1289
01:38:25,880 --> 01:38:29,720
this during Rampire Strikes Back episode.
I would love to love everything. Why

1290
01:38:29,720 --> 01:38:32,039
wouldn't I want to love everything?
That would be dope. Sometimes things just

1291
01:38:32,119 --> 01:38:34,479
don't hit me, and for whatever
reason, Lord of the Rings has not

1292
01:38:34,560 --> 01:38:36,920
hit me. I know. It's
a bit that I've had for a while

1293
01:38:36,960 --> 01:38:40,199
where I pretend like I don't know
what Lord of the Rings is, like

1294
01:38:40,279 --> 01:38:43,640
totally as if I it's been taken
from my brain. And I was telling

1295
01:38:43,680 --> 01:38:46,600
Hannah earlier. Today, I feel
like I have manifested that bit because I

1296
01:38:46,640 --> 01:38:49,439
could not tell you a single thing
that happened in the previous movie. And

1297
01:38:49,479 --> 01:38:54,359
I was like reading the Wikipedia plot
of the second movie out loud to Hannah

1298
01:38:54,479 --> 01:38:58,520
and she was having to constantly giving
me context to what these words meant.

1299
01:38:59,000 --> 01:39:02,600
And I was like, it is
amazing how little I retain from this movie

1300
01:39:02,600 --> 01:39:06,399
trilogy. And I'm somewhat I read
all the Game of Thrones books. I

1301
01:39:06,439 --> 01:39:10,680
can get knee deep in a fandom, read fan fake and be a real

1302
01:39:10,800 --> 01:39:14,880
nerdosaurus about it. Something about this
movie and the names and the things I

1303
01:39:14,920 --> 01:39:17,319
was laughing during it at times that
I know we're not funny, and I

1304
01:39:17,319 --> 01:39:21,000
feel like I was mildly hurting Hannah's
those feelings because we were watching it together.

1305
01:39:21,319 --> 01:39:26,039
I wasn't meaning too. So here's
what I'll say. I appreciate,

1306
01:39:26,159 --> 01:39:30,079
I always appreciate and respect when something
is very meaningful to a lot of people.

1307
01:39:30,479 --> 01:39:34,560
That being said, will I ever
watched these movies again? Probably not

1308
01:39:34,880 --> 01:39:40,079
unless Hannah makes me. But I
don't want to yunk anyone's um, so

1309
01:39:40,199 --> 01:39:45,359
keep on keeping on and that it's
just not for me. So that's that

1310
01:39:45,600 --> 01:39:49,359
on that just saying what don't you
go next? If you don't mind or

1311
01:39:49,920 --> 01:39:55,279
so. Lord of the Rings has
a very special place in my heart and

1312
01:39:55,600 --> 01:40:00,560
for a particular reason, which I
will share. So when trigger morning death,

1313
01:40:03,760 --> 01:40:09,119
when my dad passed away in two
thousand and nine, which was before

1314
01:40:09,119 --> 01:40:13,960
I became a therapist, I just
kept thinking, I want to go home

1315
01:40:14,079 --> 01:40:17,880
because I was in Pennsylvania, that's
where my parents lived, and I live

1316
01:40:17,920 --> 01:40:23,840
in Minneapolis, so I was in
Pennsylvania and all I could think was I

1317
01:40:23,880 --> 01:40:26,319
want to go home to Minneapolis,
and I want to watch Lord of the

1318
01:40:26,359 --> 01:40:30,520
Rings. And it felt really small
and insignificant. It felt like I should

1319
01:40:30,560 --> 01:40:33,319
be having bigger feelings in that moment, or different feelings in that moment or

1320
01:40:33,399 --> 01:40:39,520
something. I don't know more meaningful
air quotes, but it's just all I

1321
01:40:39,560 --> 01:40:45,079
wanted. And now as a therapist, and specifically a therapist that specializes in

1322
01:40:45,119 --> 01:40:49,279
the intersection between pop culture and psychology, I can say what I wanted was

1323
01:40:50,000 --> 01:40:58,479
the comfort of Middle Earth and also
the archetypal significance of who I saw as

1324
01:40:58,560 --> 01:41:01,720
my dad, which my dad i'd
had big Gandolph energy and big Bilbo energy.

1325
01:41:01,840 --> 01:41:05,279
He was kind of a sage kind
of a goofball, and what I

1326
01:41:05,399 --> 01:41:09,840
wanted was to go to Middle Earth
and hang out with him and be with

1327
01:41:09,960 --> 01:41:15,159
my fellowship to support me during this
time of grieving. And so it can

1328
01:41:15,239 --> 01:41:20,239
be hard for me to watch because
it's like I'm going into it's time to

1329
01:41:20,279 --> 01:41:25,279
grieve my dad again. But it's
also really a beautiful experience for me to

1330
01:41:25,399 --> 01:41:30,479
go into that space. And when
my client who was dying told me that

1331
01:41:30,560 --> 01:41:32,880
Lord of the Rings was so meaningful
to them, I was right there with

1332
01:41:32,920 --> 01:41:35,640
them, right. Lord of the
Rings was very important to me too.

1333
01:41:35,960 --> 01:41:42,119
It's a way to imagine that my
dad is always alive in that movie.

1334
01:41:42,279 --> 01:41:46,439
And also it's a way of me
conceptualizing what his afterlife might be because he

1335
01:41:46,479 --> 01:41:51,520
was someone who didn't have a faith
tradition either, so I often imagine him

1336
01:41:51,680 --> 01:41:56,800
in places like going to the Undying
Lands, and I think he'd be having

1337
01:41:56,840 --> 01:42:03,640
a dope time there playing chess.
So this movie is important to me personally

1338
01:42:03,960 --> 01:42:09,600
and professionally, and I think it
will go back to young one more time.

1339
01:42:09,960 --> 01:42:13,399
You know, this movie came right
out of the collective unconscious, right

1340
01:42:13,520 --> 01:42:19,319
the week all the archetypes are here, and obviously this was from Tolkien's lived

1341
01:42:19,399 --> 01:42:25,039
experience, but also from the experience
of all of us on our ancestors back

1342
01:42:25,039 --> 01:42:28,560
to the beginning of time. And
I think that's why it speaks so much

1343
01:42:28,600 --> 01:42:31,039
to so many of us. And
that's all I have to say about that.

1344
01:42:31,399 --> 01:42:35,239
Thank you so much for sharing,
Justine. I'll go next. I

1345
01:42:35,359 --> 01:42:40,680
love Lord of the Rings. I've
tried to read the books many many times.

1346
01:42:40,720 --> 01:42:46,319
I can't do it. I can't
get through the descripting of everything.

1347
01:42:47,640 --> 01:42:53,359
That's where I lost me as well. But I love these films. I

1348
01:42:53,479 --> 01:42:58,359
watched them at least once a year
usually, and the next time I watched

1349
01:42:58,399 --> 01:43:00,680
them on to watch all the extended
versions, which I have not done somehow.

1350
01:43:01,079 --> 01:43:03,239
I don't know how. I just
come over with me. I have

1351
01:43:03,319 --> 01:43:06,640
him on four K. Yeah,
I just haven't. I just haven't done

1352
01:43:06,640 --> 01:43:10,920
it. I'm not going to make
Brittany watch any of them again, but

1353
01:43:10,960 --> 01:43:13,960
I do. I really love them. I love the speeches. I love

1354
01:43:14,039 --> 01:43:17,800
sam I love the relationships. I
love the idea of friendship being that beautiful

1355
01:43:17,880 --> 01:43:24,720
and that constant. I love how
everyone looks ethereal and different at different times

1356
01:43:24,840 --> 01:43:29,159
for different reasons. I think where
this lighting just shifts just a little Bit

1357
01:43:29,199 --> 01:43:33,000
and they look luminous, and I
think that that's really that really makes the

1358
01:43:33,039 --> 01:43:38,359
film feel magical. And so I
love these films and I'll it makes me

1359
01:43:38,399 --> 01:43:41,920
want to watch all of the Hobbit
films, which I have actually not really

1360
01:43:42,000 --> 01:43:45,840
rewatched oddly enough, but yeah,
so I love these films. I'll always

1361
01:43:45,840 --> 01:43:49,439
watch them. And yeah, that's
it. I guess it leaves me and

1362
01:43:49,520 --> 01:43:51,800
Hannah see, you can come to
my house. I have him on four

1363
01:43:51,880 --> 01:43:54,800
K. I just called my buddy
over. It was like, hey,

1364
01:43:54,840 --> 01:43:56,760
I'm gonna watch Return of the King. Now you wantall where He's like,

1365
01:43:56,920 --> 01:44:00,760
yes, no, no hesitation,
no context, you know, okay,

1366
01:44:00,800 --> 01:44:04,399
awesome. I actually know the dialogue
to this film. I know the dialogue

1367
01:44:04,399 --> 01:44:09,119
to all the films basically, so
that so many times I've seen them.

1368
01:44:09,159 --> 01:44:11,640
Well, good, we'll watch the
four and a half hour version together and

1369
01:44:11,640 --> 01:44:13,720
we will justine you come to Chicago
and hang out with us two if you

1370
01:44:13,760 --> 01:44:15,800
want. Um. Well, you
know, my best friend lives in Chicago

1371
01:44:16,399 --> 01:44:20,199
and we wrote a book together that's
coming out in July called The Great.

1372
01:44:23,880 --> 01:44:29,720
It might be coming to Chicago sometimes
great good news. I'm buying a house

1373
01:44:29,800 --> 01:44:31,800
in like two weeks. It's big
enough for everybody to hang out in and

1374
01:44:31,880 --> 01:44:35,399
it'll be a Lord of Rings partying
britty you can come to It'll just you

1375
01:44:35,439 --> 01:44:39,439
know, we'll give you a corner
you can sit in it. So and

1376
01:44:39,520 --> 01:44:42,439
you just give me one of those
pipes and like give me eleven zis or

1377
01:44:42,520 --> 01:44:45,840
second Breakfast or wherever the fuck they
call it, and I'll just I'll do

1378
01:44:45,920 --> 01:44:50,760
my own private reading in the corner. I'll be watching like hungry games on

1379
01:44:50,840 --> 01:44:56,560
like a little iPad in the corner
by myself. Well, we still love

1380
01:44:56,560 --> 01:44:59,199
you, so you can come.
As far as my final thoughts on this,

1381
01:44:59,399 --> 01:45:02,600
I absolutely adhered to the idea that
this is one of the greatest films

1382
01:45:02,600 --> 01:45:08,199
ever. I think when everything everywhere, all at once dethroned it as the

1383
01:45:08,199 --> 01:45:12,119
most awarded movie. Before I'd seen
it, I had a little bit of

1384
01:45:12,159 --> 01:45:15,000
like a little feelings, but then
I saw everything everywhere when I'm like,

1385
01:45:15,159 --> 01:45:19,760
okay, I accept that. I
accept that this is important and good and

1386
01:45:20,039 --> 01:45:25,279
amazing for so many reasons. So
you know, it can dethrone the return

1387
01:45:25,319 --> 01:45:28,159
of the king for holding the throne
for twenty years. It's time for something

1388
01:45:28,159 --> 01:45:30,560
else to take it that's more modern
and relevant. I can accept that but

1389
01:45:30,720 --> 01:45:35,680
this movie still holds this very special
place in my heart. I think I

1390
01:45:35,760 --> 01:45:41,880
remember being in the theater in my
hometown. I cannot remember, been trying

1391
01:45:41,880 --> 01:45:44,840
to rack my brain what movie was
I wanted it was there to see.

1392
01:45:44,960 --> 01:45:49,039
When the trailer for the Fellowship of
the Ring dropped, it was a surprise

1393
01:45:49,119 --> 01:45:51,279
drops who didn't tell anybody who was
commons just bam, here it is.

1394
01:45:51,359 --> 01:45:55,680
They didn't know any promotion anything because
they didn't have to. Oh my god,

1395
01:45:56,079 --> 01:46:00,960
just the anticipation right seeing him going, is it secret? Is it

1396
01:46:01,119 --> 01:46:08,640
safe? Ire? Like you got
really excited because I used to watch They

1397
01:46:08,720 --> 01:46:11,279
used to come in on the Disney
Channel and that was the only premium channel

1398
01:46:11,319 --> 01:46:13,680
we had in my house. We
had cable, so that was we were

1399
01:46:13,680 --> 01:46:16,119
doing good for you know, the
nineties. The Professor as a father and

1400
01:46:16,760 --> 01:46:23,279
we watched the cartoon Hobbit so many
times that I remember my dad read us

1401
01:46:23,359 --> 01:46:26,479
The Hobbit the book, and I
just might know I talked about that anytime

1402
01:46:26,479 --> 01:46:30,039
we do this. I profoundly loved
The Hobbit. I love the Hobbit more

1403
01:46:30,079 --> 01:46:31,840
than I love any of these not
the movies, but the story. But

1404
01:46:32,239 --> 01:46:39,920
this story is so powerful, It's
so universal. It covers so many dimensions

1405
01:46:40,680 --> 01:46:48,760
of human experience from every considerable aspect, including the times when you actually forge

1406
01:46:48,800 --> 01:46:54,399
those friendships when you go away on
a journey, which are why I think

1407
01:46:54,920 --> 01:47:00,640
toll Can spends so much time on
the food and the walking, because that's

1408
01:47:00,680 --> 01:47:04,920
what soldiers do. It's a whole
lot of nothing and boredom and forging these

1409
01:47:04,960 --> 01:47:12,359
friendships, these found family things,
and then having to protect them as you

1410
01:47:12,800 --> 01:47:15,720
lose. This veneer of war is
going to be glorious and awesome, and

1411
01:47:15,760 --> 01:47:20,000
you realize it's terrible and awful and
people's lives are ending in front of you,

1412
01:47:20,079 --> 01:47:25,319
and you have to keep going and
seeing how much this story is resonated

1413
01:47:25,359 --> 01:47:29,319
for a hundred years and how it
continues to throw people and people look forward

1414
01:47:29,359 --> 01:47:34,279
to sharing it with their kids.
I am excited to continue the love and

1415
01:47:34,359 --> 01:47:41,600
phantom of this story because of how
universal it is and it's impact on realizing

1416
01:47:42,039 --> 01:47:46,039
we can, somewhere inside of us, put all our stupid, petty shit

1417
01:47:46,520 --> 01:47:54,279
and divisions aside and stand together against
the greatest evil and prevail. I think

1418
01:47:54,399 --> 01:47:58,479
is an important thing to have faith
in, regardless of whatever faith beliefs you

1419
01:47:58,600 --> 01:48:01,399
have, that humans can point get
their ship together and stop squabbling over whose

1420
01:48:01,439 --> 01:48:06,199
skin color, whose music, whose
religion, and realize that there's something bigger

1421
01:48:06,720 --> 01:48:10,800
than all of us that we must
all fight together against, no matter the

1422
01:48:10,880 --> 01:48:15,199
cost. And I think this series
ties all of that together in really well

1423
01:48:15,239 --> 01:48:19,119
while simultaneously acknowledging that you won't be
the same after and that's okay, And

1424
01:48:19,159 --> 01:48:21,560
I think that's why it's so important
for me. You don't have to be

1425
01:48:21,640 --> 01:48:25,720
the same to come home, that
there's a place for you somewhere. All

1426
01:48:25,800 --> 01:48:29,720
right. While on that beautiful note, we will sign off here. Thank

1427
01:48:29,720 --> 01:48:33,119
you just seeing again for joining us. Are there any social media handles you'd

1428
01:48:33,159 --> 01:48:36,319
like to share where can people find
you? Yes, people can find me

1429
01:48:36,399 --> 01:48:41,640
on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter
at Mind Body Fandom because I take a

1430
01:48:41,680 --> 01:48:46,399
holistic approach to healing mind body and
fandom. And you can find my books,

1431
01:48:46,720 --> 01:48:51,680
which I have already name dropped numerous
times wherever books are sold. And

1432
01:48:51,800 --> 01:48:58,760
you can catch my podcasts Starship Therapies
and Dark Side of the Mat wherever you

1433
01:48:59,039 --> 01:49:01,800
enjoy listening upon casts. Oh all
right, and you can find us as

1434
01:49:01,840 --> 01:49:06,479
always at Popcorn Psychology on Facebook,
Instagram, and TikTok. You can find

1435
01:49:06,520 --> 01:49:12,399
this at Popcorn Underscore psych on Twitter. You can always email us at Popcorn

1436
01:49:12,439 --> 01:49:16,920
Psychology at gmail dot com if you
have any recommendations or questions for us and

1437
01:49:17,159 --> 01:49:19,640
you. If you want to become
a patron of ours, you can find

1438
01:49:19,720 --> 01:49:25,079
our Patreon link in our Instagram bio. That way you can become a patron

1439
01:49:25,119 --> 01:49:29,800
that has early access to unedited episodes
as well as top five lists of our

1440
01:49:29,800 --> 01:49:31,960
favorite movies and little think cute things
like that. And if you want to

1441
01:49:31,960 --> 01:49:35,760
get any merks, you can find
us at tepublic dot com. All right,

1442
01:49:35,840 --> 01:49:38,479
everybody, The Journeys over Babes