Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster movies and psychoanalyze them.
My name is Bernie Brownfield and I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by
Ben Stover, individual therapist, Hannah Espinoza, marriage and family therapists. We're
all licensed clinical professional counselors also known as therapists who practice out of Chicago.
Even though we are licensed mental health professionals, this podcast is purely for entertainment
purposes and to fulfill our love of dissecting pop culture in all forms. Please
remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists, we aren't your therapist.
If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find a local mental
health provider. Welcome to Popcorn Psychology. Today we are going to be discussing
the now second most awarded film of all time and one of my absolute favorites,
The Return of the Key. I am super excited to do this,
But before we talk anymore about that, I want to introduce our special guests,
who you may recognize from our Two Towers episode. We have the wonderful
Justine Maston with us. Justine, please tell our listeners all about yourself.
Hello. Thanks for having me back. I kind of gave you no choice
last time. I was like, I'm coming back. I will find out
when you're recording this and I will sneak into your studio. My name is
Justine Maston. I am a licensed marriage and family therapist and a licensed alcohol
and drug counselor. I'm also an author, an educator, and a podcaster.
I have too many jobs. I'm best known as the co author of
a book called Starship Therapies, Using Therapeutic fan Fiction to Rewrite Your Life,
and I also have a new book coming out in July called The Grieving Therapist,
caring for yourself and your clients when it feels like the end of the
world. And if you friends at home are a healer of any kind,
and if you love Lord of the Rings and trudging through the wilderness, you
will of The Grieving Therapist, which is a magical, realistic journey to map
the realms of grief that we have all experienced over the time in our careers,
which I am very excited to read because we all certainly have. Anybody
who's ever been a healer has gone through this grief, and I think it's
a really important book and I'm really glad you wrote it. Yeah, thank
you. It's available for presale and presales matter, So friends, get yourself
a future gift and press add to Kurt wherever books are sold. I love
doing that because I have very poor object permanence. So when I pre order
something, it is like a gift I give my future self because I will
straight up forget that I did it until it just arrives one day for me,
right. I encourage people to do that. It's like Dale Cooper from
Twin Peaks. Every day, once a day, give yourself a gift.
Yes, says, don't plan it, but you know what you planned it
months ago. See it in Planet today. The gift is here now.
I can't think of that man without hearing him say ohoi and then seeing the
smiling eyes versus the smiling face versus the grimacing eyes from when his guest spot
on I met your mother? Who loved it? Annie Who? So with
our episode today, we will be discussing having chosen family and relationships, purpose
and heroism when you are facing the diarist of odds, and also taking a
look at the wounds that won't heal and how we change. Also be as
always discussing treatment and final thoughts. So for those of you that haven't watched
or don't know the Return of the King, this is the conclusion of the
Lord of the Rings saga, in which time we see Rigorn ascend to the
throne of men by becoming King of Gondora and leaving up to his name getting
his sword back. We also see the destruction of the Ring, the destruction
of Gallum, the end of Mordor, and the end of Sauron, but
also ignore that the Shire got and go back to a really nice, beautiful
place since the movie was already too long and too full of stuff, but
we go on in a very, very detailed journey with people trying to figure
out who they are when all the chips are down and all the odds are
against you, and who you're going to be and who you're going to do
it for and with and watching that journey I think is one of the best
pieces of cinema that's ever existed, and the fact that it got so many
awards and continues to hold up, even getting a theatrical release last week again
for its twentieth anniversary, which is a number we will not mention again because
it makes me feel old. A quick rundown of the plot of the movie.
We find everybody in great deals of trouble. They resolve it by going
through some of the most epic battles that have ever been written or filmed,
and dealing with both the worst parts of themselves, humanity and other living creatures.
And what it looks like to come out victorious and what the cost of
that is on those who are closest to the hardest moment are some of the
epic themes of this film. And I will say this now so that I
don't say it one hundred times later. Anybody who thinks that this story is
not an allegory for coming home from war Tolkien, I's never talked to anybody
didn't come home from war. But I am excited for us to get into
this movie. So let's talk about the chosen family and relationships we see and
how that plays into what our characters do throughout the course of this journey.
So I think that I know I'm the person always comes in and I have
no real emotional attachment to Lord of the Ring, So I just want to
identify that straight up as anyone who listens who might not be as immersed into
the story, but I would agree. Like something I notice while watching this
movie the whole time is so much of it centers around friendships, both in
really positive ways and also not so positive ways, which I know is how
chosen families can arise. Is when we don't get what we need from the
people who are like supposed to take care of us, we have to go
find the people that take care of us. And a lot of I mean,
one of the things we see right away is like Dena Thor and yes
and Pharaomere Farremere yes two for two guys, And I think that's a classic
example of trying to win over someone who can't give you what they need.
And mean, it really bummed me out because right away you see that Farremere
comes into a setting in which he knows his dad is going to be disappointed,
that he's gonna that he's the one that made it. And then I
think this is a theme you've seen a lot of media or movies, which
is the wrong quote unquote the wrong kid died, and then how do you
internalize that or not internalize that one that occurs? Unfortunately in this situation,
he does internalize this almost to his literal death yep, and watching him know
he's writing into his death while Denathor has one of the most disgusting meals I've
ever seen. It's just such powerful imagery that you see, I guess you
don't often see in the movies where the wrong kid dying is actually told by
the parent straight up to his face. That's true. I do wish that,
And it was heartbreaking and watching Barremere melt and then harden in seconds,
but still keep that look of sadness that he knew he would never be enough,
and also because of that his father was ordering all of these men to
their death, and that he would have to lead them and even then would
not be enough. I think it was some of the best facial acting I've
seen in a long time. I just wanted to jump on something Britney said
before we get too far away from it, because Britney, something you were
talking about was we gravitate towards chosen family to get something we didn't get in
our family. And yes, we absolutely do that, and it can be
life saving. And sometimes we gravitate towards that which feels familiar, even when
it doesn't serve us, and even when it harms us. So sometimes we
form chosen family that repeats patterns from our family of origin. And I think
the whole fellowship managed to escape that. But I do wonder. I wonder
about Bormir because he was so and I know we don't have Boorimere in this
movie, but he bristled so much against Rigorn, and I wonder if that
brought up some stuff for him about being either a big brother or the eldest
son or something. There was some vibe there. I feel like that was
coming from family of origin. I think looking at how he might be repeating
you see dennethor talk about not wanting to give control of the city to someone
who had abandoned it when his family had been there being the stewards while sitting
at the foot of the throne instead of ascending to it. And I think
Borimere would have likely shared that because Bormere had such a sense of honor and
purpose in being the steward of Gondor that being seen for that was something he
could never have. So not only could his dad never be seen as a
king, Borimere would never be seen as an heir to a throne, just
as Steward while standing next to someone who would be handed it the second he
showed up, and he'd been actively caliventing in the woods to neglect that for
eighty seven years. A hot old man seven years old. You reach look
this good, you will not it. Also mean this a great point you
bring up, because it also like when we talk about repeating patterns with that
you bring up like borne Mere and airborne, I mean typically apparent like that
also breeds competition, whether they mean to or not, probably means too.
So I think something a common theme I was noting for this whole movie,
which is an align with this a little bit, but hopes not to tangential
is going above and beyond to prove your value, like at your own detriment,
possible death. And so I wonder with born Mere he was recreating that
also relationship with Eric gorn Of. I can't be in like brotherhood. I
have to if well, brotherhood equals competition. So anyone that rises up that's
similar to me in any way or has similar stature, I have to defeat.
And that is something that really toxic parents do. I think we're seeing
us a lot now in the show Succession, when a parent is toxic in
that way, they don't only ruin their relationship to their kids, but also
their kid's ability to relate to each other. So I wouldn't be surprised if
the Paramere and Boromir's relationship with each other was very competitive, even if they
tried it to not be. And so then of course, when you come
into a situation like Boromere did with Aerogorn, it's like, how can you
not immediately go to that competitive state or just antagonistic where you can't really be
comfortable getting close to someone, because what is it to be vulnerable? You
can't if you're vulnerable, your guards down, all that kind of stuff.
Because what I do remember about Boromere is that by the end he was really
wanting to be a part of the group, like the Chosen family part and
he's like the little ones or whatever he said, and I was like,
oh, so cute, and he like defended them right to like his death,
and so I think that's what's the shame. And I think you see
that in Faremire as well, Like someone who wants to be good, who
wants to be a hero, who wants to be pleasing to the people that
they care about and unfortunately the person that they are aspiring to please is unpleasable,
and there's never all. It's a cup of holes in the bottom,
like you're never gonna get what you need from there, But you can't quite
stop unless you do some intense individual work acknowledging that and then disentangling from that,
and then, like we're talking about, find other ways to get that
need met. That is actually a positive place to get that need met,
right, And we can learn those lessons from choosing people who are like our
family of origin, you know. Using this example, I mean we gravitated
towards that which felt familiar, which is antagonism. But over time and learning
and working and being together and doing things differently, there was growth. So
even when homeostasis, our need for things to feel familiar can lead to change
if we're doing it in a different circumstance. And you can find strength in
that in realizing you already have the skills necessary to operate your life, and
you can apply the things you already know to new circumstances in a new way
and feel mastery over the things that we very commonly find as therapist people don't
think they have enough of filling the blank skill to live their life in a
different way or be successful in different settings. And they get very anxious when
they encounter new situations without realizing, No, the old skills come with you.
The old skills come with you. They just won't feel maladaptive when the
situation is no longer destructive. Some of my least favorite words maladaptive and destructive.
I think you have to explain that now, Oh, I mean,
as a predominantly narrative therapist, language is so important. Yes, And the
language of maladaptive assumes that there is almost a morality to our choices, and
so I prefer not to use that kind of language with my clients. It's
it doesn't mean other people can't use it. You know, your mileage may
vary, but it's not language I would use with my clients. What do
you use instead? That seems like these these behaviors aren't serving you? Okay?
What happens when you do that? This thing? Do you like it
when that happens? No? Interesting? What do you think about that?
I'd think to use them. I don't use those usually towards my clients.
So using mortars like you're in a situation, I agree on that notion for
sure. I don't. I don't like shaming people for responding to a situation
in the best way you could and making sure that they see it, but
then understanding other relationships can be But yeah, I think that's important, like
how we empower other people we're working with constantly to realize that just because things
happen in a certain way doesn't mean that you are now bad. This is
making me think of Gandalf. Yeah, yeah, I mean he brought this
fellowship together, right, And we've talked about this before, or I've I've
certainly talked about this over the years that you know, he kind of he
orchestrates things and then he wanders away and then he comes back very you know,
kind of like an old double Doore, Yes, very very double Doore.
But also like a therapist, right, you show up when you can
offer support, and you go away and let people try things. But in
return of the King's he's very much in his little piece of the story.
Part of what I love about this movie is it's got my favorite trope in
it, which is people in different places helping the story along in their own
way, and then at the end they all come together for the final shebang,
And I feel like for most of his life, Gandolf was trying to
make things go the way he wanted. He was trying to write a certain
story and he didn't. He didn't get to do that as much here,
but he did use his influence to make sure the beacons were lit so that
it can look like Gondor's calling for aid, even though Gandar's not calling for
Anne. And one of the things I thought as I was watching this,
this always sparks something for me. We were tibet chosen family, right.
It seems like Gandolf cares about the whole of Middle Earth and he does.
I believe that. But also like these are this is his crew, these
are his peeps, and like he's in the middle of having this epic battle
and Pipping comes running and says, DENNI Thor's gone mad, He's burning,
He's gonna burn, famere alive, and Candal just nopes the fuck out like
the battle, but he's like, oh, I gotta I gotta go save
dude. I realized that was a that was a whole train. I just
went on, this is when you ask me to do things. At ten
PM, this is what you get. That's fair. Damn those children,
my child. Yes, yes, it makes doing adult things when people's brains
are on challenging. I don't know if there was anything in there that any
of you can use, but that's what that's what came into my head.
So you're welcome. I mean, I think what the movie does do well
is there's always this prioritization of the central gang, and which I mean,
I guess you could argue, I don't want to get too off my own
side topic, but I guess you could argue, is that morally ethically okay
to be constantly stranding like the bigger picture, to prioritize personal relationships person and
all vendettas personal agendas, because I think a lot of people make moves that
prioritize relationships and or that have like I mean, it all works on the
end because it's like a classic like hero story. But that is you could
definitely pick apart if you wanted to be a bummer about it. You can,
But also you can you have to argue against yourself in the same discussion
of a well, who are the most important players, Who are the ponds,
who are the Knights, who are the rooks who are the bishops And
when you're moving pieces on a chess board, which is definitely a metaphor,
Gandolf uses as he's discussing what's happening, and you have to remember that some
players are more important than others. And Fairmere as a captain of Gondor,
word will get around, soldiers talk, and if word gets around that denneth
Or burned Fairmire while he was still alive and gave up on him, that
would do devastating damage to the morale of the folks. If he died in
battle, that might rally the truth. But if he went out like that,
they might lose moral on their will to fight and not be able to
continue the battle in a way that they need to. Oh, it doesn't
matter. Well, and this just sparked something for me. Thank you.
Thank you for that. Then, because their their philosophy on life and death
is that in death we go to the halls of our fathers. And you
know, Theatin talks about how he needed to die in a certain way to
be given the honor of going to those halls like Vikings. Yeah, okay,
it's like you're not going to go to Valhalla if you get eaten by
an oh school. And I wonder if and I've never thought of this before.
This is what I love about dialogue, meaning is formed in dialogue with
other humans. That's why therapy works. You're welcome, is I wonder if
there was that moment for Gandolf where he's like, you can't burn Pharremer alive,
or he won't go to the halls of his father's you are he is
going to be sent to wherever you go in the afterlife if you don't have
an honorable death, that just certainly could be. That's the level of their
cultures. I know, the cultures of that. I don't know if cultures
of Gondor and Rohan are different. But recognizing of anyone who understands what happens
after death, Gandolf is the only one and the rules that would apply,
he would know. And if that's a rule that would apply, like as
is common in many warrior cultures, right that if you don't die or warrior's
death, or you don't die within your axe in your hand or whatever,
that you don't go to valhalla. And keeping that in relevant as not only
how it would apply to this person, that's part of his team and had
his chosen family. But also the symbol that Pharremer is as a captain of
Gondor would be extreme relevant in the moments where you need people to be courageous
as pawns and stand up with a pike against a troll that's bursting through the
city gates, in which you are certainly going to live another three seconds.
Well, and I was also thinking about how important he would be to the
transition of Aragorn becoming the king, because he's going to need somebody that knows
everyone or has some awareness because he just showed up and now he's the king,
and just thinking about the transition that people would need and not having Pharomer
would be a huge blow in a lot of ways. I mean, yes,
they would listen to him because he's their king and blah blah blah,
of course, but also I think he would be really important to help kind
of integrate their the kingdom. You would need that. You need a transition
period with the former leader legitimizes the new one, and losing not just Pharomir,
but Boromir and Denethor exactly would likely lead to problems. It's almost like
we saw how that can go when the former leader doesn't legitimize the legitimate transfer
of power, what happens when the next one comes in? And what kind
of bad, crazy shit that's destabilizing to an entire nation might be. I
don't know. I can think of some examples. What about you, guys.
That doesn't relate to anything in my life or experience, But I think
what sprung to me with you bringing that up, Hannah, going back to
this idea of like relationships and chosen family is I think what is really beautiful
about this movie is so much of how people push forward. I don't know
if people's the right word, but characters push forward is through the supports and
belief of someone else. Like a lot of why Aragorn becomes king is like
the constant encouragement from his friends and Gandalf specifically, and thinking about Farremere,
I wonder how meaningful it will be to him after the fact that not only
did he I mean, it's going to be hardcore to get over your deb
trying to murder suicide with you. But the idea that Mary Or was a
Pippin Pippin right, Pippin ran like in the middle of a war, like
ran to go find like one of the biggest soldiers ganned off to just to
save your life, that your life was meaningful and your existence was meaningful to
people, to important people, and they took time out of an important situation
to come and make sure that you were okay. That, like Pippin,
was like looking out for you. And I think of someone who seems to
have like pretty hardcore like second son syndrome by his father. I wonder how
moving that would be for him and how much that could help him, like
self realize more to have that now be part of his story, that and
his kind of having a chosen family. That someone cared about me enough to
save my life and at a time when they would have just what they would
have been very justified in letting me go and letting me die. That Pippin
was really like he jumped into the fire himself and he could have also died.
And so I wonder, I just wonder how that would help him grow
post this movie, to know that and then also to have like his dad
be not a part of his story anymore. Barremere and post traumatic growth.
Yeah. A journal article by Dritney Brownfield. So I know I am guilty
of taking us astray. So I'm going to hold us firmly in chosen family
and relationships, which is very much my wheelhouse as a marriage and family therapist.
One of the reasons that people go to find chosen family is because they've
been rejected by theirs. And I didn't think we spend so much time in
Farremer, but here we are. I mean, Farremer needs a chosen family.
He's straight up being cast out. Whereas most of the rest of the
fellowship had a pretty decent home life. They could have just hung out in
you know, like Frodo could have stayed in the Shire, hung out with
Bilbo, Sam had his profitable gardening business. Maryon Pippin are just like getting
stoned, and even the vegetables. I did love that part of the movie.
But they have now come together and become something. And we see chosen
family a lot in queer communities, because lots of times queer folks get cast
out of their families. It's better than it was, but it's not best.
And even if folks aren't cast out, they aren't necessarily understood or wholly
accepted, And so finding a group of people that get it, that get
you and get to the burden that you are carrying and are helping you to
carry that burden is hugely healing. And so I see themes of that in
Lord of the Rings, and I especially see it in Return of the King,
not just because so much of it is so gay, Um it is
well, let me let me say this as a queer woman, I see
subtext, and I see a lot of subtext in this film. And honestly
I hadn't I hadn't read the books when I saw the movies and when they're
on when Frodo and Sam are on that rock at the end, I was
like, do they get together? Because it was like so charged and I
didn't know. I was like, are they do they make out? Like?
Is there a smooch here? Um? Could you imagine? Oh my
god, that would have that would have like changed not just the course of
my life, but like the course of history truly. But you know there,
you could look at these as being very close friendships. You could look
at these as being romantic relationships. They can be whatever they want to be.
But maybe that wasn't available to them where they came from. Now it's
available to them here and they're looking out for each other even when they're not
together. Right, Frodo and Sam are off with their ring and everybody else
is like, let's help them, let's help them. Let's wave some flags
over here and draw that fucker's eye over here so our friends can get Lava
married. Right. I'm going to send you the Lava song from Disney that
I think you need to hear now, because I's playing in my head about
a little volcano singing a song to another volcano. Nice. That's so cute.
But I think it's true that there's definitely some argument for subtexts to exist,
whether it's romantic love or friendship love. People can argue till the end
of time, but there's love there between these characters. Yeah, And recognizing
that when people go through trauma bonds like these guys have, they form friendships
like no other. When I was doing ROTC, I was unable to contract
as a medical but the things that I was doing with OURTCOS learning and had
one of those sergeants tell me that, like, you know, the army
sucks, all right, the things they put you through suck, but you
will form friendships through the military that will not be replicated by anything else ever.
In your life, and I believe him as you see it. You
see it with people that go through these ridiculously impossible to describe situations and circumstances
that find this deep, deep love for their chosen family that can surpass even
their love for their spouses. I don't think anybody on this show would argue
with me if I said that Sam loved Proto more than he loved Rosie,
for sure, and it sucks that, at least here in America, that's
all I can speak to. We put romantic relationships as a center of cultural
life because right because best friendships, friendships, community, chosen family can save
your life. I have a lot of talks with single clients who are struggling
with singledom, and I do a lot of like you're kind of saying,
challenging this idea, and I bring into our culture because I think you always
have to be mindful of the systems in which we are within, and that
we are in a system that has I think it's changing, which is really
interesting to watch happen in real time. But that's so like intensely intensely prioritize
and focused on like nuclear family specifically, and partnership in that way and because
of that like radically devalued community, especially in like white culture, and how
it does breed a big sense of loneliness in people and ostracization from their friends
when their friends do get into romantic relationships, because there is kind of this
thing where once you're married, you can't go on girls trips anymore like boys
trips, or you can't like do the same things you used to do with
your friends, and this idea that you will be lonely if you're not in
a relationship, and how that is really hard on people. Yeah, and
I think you're right in that what this movie does exemplify is like on page
like if we're going to take it all very literally, very little romance,
and it's all more about like the weight of community, and like with even
like the Four Hobbits, it's like the weight of their community and how much
they rent for each other and that you don't have to be so many stories
are about like we're driven by love and romantic love and that person's my soul
mate, so I've got to, like, you know, risk life end
limb to save them, right. And it is cool to see a movie
where the focus is so much more on caring about people because you care about
them, and it doesn't have to be for this like higher almost self self
interested perspective of like what are they giving to me in the romantic one to
one romantic exchange? This is more like, no, we care about each
other. I mean, I think Sam's like a great example of that in
that he seems to be someone who he values relationships so highly and friendship and
community and not just the community in the shire, but like off of the
shire, and he isn't really driven by more stereotypical like heroism or ego.
He doesn't need to be the one who throws the ring in the fire,
he doesn't need to be the dude. He's just what matters to him is
the higher purpose of saving his community and all the communities that go along with
that, and on a more micro level, like saving his friend. And
he's so outside of his ego in a way that's like really harwarming. I
mean, I think that's why people I thought, like the first time I
watch it, I had nothing like I read the first book in high school
and I don't like it, and so I never read this. I feel
like I had to do an apology tour every episode, we doing more of
the rings, and I'm like a voracious reader, like I was reading like
the stand on the bridge at the same time, and I was just like,
I can't listen. I can't read. These dudes have an a meal
one more time, and what are we doing. I don't know where I
was going with that, other than you know, it is nice to see
someone who so purposely puts aside all the ego just to be present for his
friendship and not. I mean, that's all the serious where I was going
with that. So when I watched it, I was really when I watched
In College, the last movie, I was really surprised to be like,
oh, Sam is the hero, and that kind of blew my mind because
I, of course, being on the sidelines during all this fandom, I
was like, well, Froto Froto. Everyone's tam a Frodo. People can't
get enough a Froto. Elisia would YadA YadA, And when I watched it,
I was like, oh, no, Like, Froto's just the guy
that happens to have the ring and Sam is the one literally carrying his body
to more door, to the very end end, And how cool that was
to see and how different that felt than other things I had seen and read.
I think so much of the story settles on that, particularly with the
goodness of Sam, that no matter what's going on, he's always focused on
proto first. He's focused on his people first. And it is said that
things get so romantic centric we could get lost in the Rigorn Arwyin dynamic in
any other story. I was shocked that was in this movie. I was
like, where has Arwin been this whole time? And the way that people
talk about these two, I thought i'd be seeing them like touching Mouse the
whole movie, and she's barely in it, and they do have a good
kiss at the end. I'll give him that. Oh yeah, you can
see how long he's waited for that, right, Vigo sold the business?
Yeah, but you're right, Like, how like decentralized? Yeah, but
you can see like, yeah, you're right, Ben, Like how decentralize
that relationship is When so many movies Ericorn would be the hero and it'd be
him in Arwin and that dilemma, or Frodo would have a love interest,
not Sam. Because I get what you guys are saying. I'm not trying
to denounce Sam as his love interest. I mean, he so I'm not
trying to sell anyone on Sam and Frodo being in love. That's my head
canon. It doesn't need to be anybody else's. But the times that we
see Sam act irrationally is when he knows or he feels that he knows that
Smeegel is not leading them where he says he is. That you know,
he ate the lamb has bread, all that stuff, And I do wish
that they didn't have Sam beat up on Smegel as much. That's upsetting to
me. But also it's like, do we have ourselves a little love triangle?
And Sam is really upset that Smeiegel has the higher place in the social
strata right now and he has been demoted. That's so interesting saying I feel
like part of the reason why Sam does kind of like lose his grip a
little bit is because he's worried about Frodo and he's worried about him getting to
where he needs to be with the Ring, and so I feel like his
rage is kind of you're preventing us from doing this thing, and if we
can't do this thing, that we can't go home, and if we can't
go home, then I don't know what the you know, what the fuck
am I doing here? So that's kind of where I can't where I was
thinking about it, because it is it's odd. It's kind of like shocking
that he beats the shit out of him a little bit and at the same
time and at the same time he is right about Sniegel, like he is
right about him the whole time. But it is interesting to see to kind
of see how that is kind of played out, the relationship between the three
of them, and how different and how even Frodo has a hard time connecting
with Sam about how Sam feels about Snegel because they both feel so so differently
about him. And I think we've talked about if we haven't talked about this,
that I think Froto sees what he could become, yeah, and that
that is really something that he can't I don't know if it's just so painful
to be aware of what the ring could truly do to someone, so painful
for him to see that he kind of can't see all of the kind of
sneaky things that he's doing right well, I mean, there's there's so much
in that dynamic that I think one part of it I caught this watch that
I hadn't, and maybe it's because the word of the year last year became
apparent, is that Frodo guess, like Sam. Before Sam gets violent,
Sam, here's Smeegel and Gollum actively plotting to kill them, which has been
his concern the entire time, him not being really able. He doesn't believe
the duality of Smeegel Gollum. He sees Gollum. I don't think Sam ever
sees Segel, and Froto does. And when Sam becomes violent is when he
is put in this impossible situation where he heard it, he saw it,
he knows it, and Frodo gaslights him, and that's when he breaks.
Yeah, he comes back, but it takes him a while to break and
to pick himself back up. And it's not until we see him fall down
the steps and find the lambas bread, realizing that he was right manipulated in
all the things he was afraid and he had to reactivate to save his love.
Mister Froto and can I jump in with something just mildly tangential. So
when I looked at those stairs, I was like, oh, that would
take forever. And then yesterday at the gym, I walked up one hundred
and sixty flights of stairs that took an hour, and that at that was
at a medium pace. So I do think that Sam could have busted up
those stairs in about okay, in about twenty minutes with that adrenaline going,
because I was like, there's no way he got back up those stairs that
fast, right, how could he save him from? She love? Well,
I did one hundred sixty flights in an hour medium pace. That's a
humble brag, but also useful information for context. I'm to tell you,
every time you say that phrase, I hear Adam Sandler in my head and
I'm resisting laughing really hard. Well, the medium pace gave me just scene
too. There is an app that I don't have, but I heard about
where it will track your steps, but as if you were walking to my
door. I haven't heard of that thing. Yeah, okay, I just
won't throw that out there because it sounds like something might be your bag.
I wonder if there's one for climbing the stairs, climbing the secret stair,
because that I would be very interested in. That would make for good motivation
when you're going I'm a drible, I'm a drible. I'm a drible,
but I'm getting fit, damn it. And how close am I to saving
Proto? He's gonna get eaten by Shelab. Gotta go faster. That would
be worth timing. There's one thing I wanted to say that from my research
on this, this is the stuff I remember for even from high school as
writing papers on The Lord of the Rings. And one of the things that
I remembered from this was the amount of soldier in the trench's relationship that exists
for Froto and Sam, because at some point in war, one thing becomes
ostensibly true is when people are shelling you and firing bullets at you, and
God forbid gas. No longer are you doing this for your country or for
any sort of greater good. What you are doing is attaching to the chosen
family around you and doing everything you can to get you and them home alive.
And the amount of Tolkien's experience that must be playing out with Froto and
Sam from having lived that and survived when many didn't. There are some really
scary photographs of before and afters from World War One of entire battalions of who
came home showing all of these men lined up and then like three came back
exactly. And that is an important dynamic we see when we consider what relationship
we're looking at and just exactly how close those can become. You see them
with police who have partners who have been with them for a long time.
Anybody who does things intense, nurses, doctors, et cetera. They have
a set team that they go into surgeries with. People get really attached to
these people. From doing therapy with police, I can tell you for sure
that people can develop relationships with their partners that their spouses get jealous over that
are not romantic, but the amount of love and attention and affection and amount
of space that they occupy in someone's consciousness is something that a spouse could never
hope to scratch because of the intensity of the relationship from the experience, and
that definitely drives what we see a photo and Sam and White chosen family becomes
so powerful. And I think with Sam and Frodo in the Smeegel kind of
triangulation is something I was kind of noting when I was watching it is Froto
does have a unique perspective in that he understands what Sniegel's going through, and
I mean his commonality with Sniegel and with Sam, and I think that impacts
greatly like how they engage with it. It's almost like Froto overidentifies with Snegel,
and it's almost like over defensive with Sniegel and overprotective of Spiegel because he
knows what it's like to be. It kind of makes me think of when
I work with people who have struggled with substances, and the difference in perspective
when I work with family where they know what that's like versus when they don't
know what that's like, and how they can have a lot of unfair assumptions
about why someone still engage with substances, why they do the things they do
when they're on substances or in search of substances or in the throes of it
right. And my only real critique of Sam, even though I love him,
is he is so hard on Smigel. And I think what kind of
bumps me out about the story is I wish Sniegel was redeemed. I love
a redemption arc, and I wish there was a way that they could have
pulled him out of that back into his I guess humanness, and I think
I'm said Elijah, I think knows that because and I think he needs to
believe that too, because he needs to think I don't know, I'm assuming,
but that he I would assume that he needs to think it's possible for
Snegele be redeemable because I'm fallen down this path. And so I think that
also is what causes that schism with them is I think for Sam it must
be really hard to be so attached to Froto and then if someone come up
that has something in common with him that Sam will never have in common with
him. Yeah, And I think that's what can be hard when I work
with people who are building community is because they maybe have come from like rejected
families of origin. Is that they can be so pressures an overprotective and also
scared in regards to their chosen family or their friendships. And that can be
part of like you were bringing up, we were bringing up the beginning like
that, repeated patterns of behaviors and so sin as my job as a therapist
is sort of to like talk them out ish of engaging, you know,
acting out that anxiety and that fear and whatever. And so I wonder with
Samon froto To how difficult it is for Sam to be for Frodo to have
gone to a place that Sam can't follow him emotionally, mentally, and that
Smiegel's already there, and that Smiegel doesn't feel safe. And so I get
why Sam is over protective of Froto, But unfortunately he is so demonizing of
Sniegel that I think, how can how can Frodo not be defensive of that?
And I think that it could be why Frodo go so hard in Smingle's
defense is as a reaction, ironically, in a reaction to Sam being so
anti it's me goal because I think what Sam would need to realize post movie,
let's say, if Froto hadn't like taken that ship into the sunset,
is that Froto is a different person now. And in these relationships, regardless,
you have to adapt to the people around You have to let them be
different people. They can't just be in stasis, and you can't just hold
regard for them when they're what you need them to be or what you remember
them to be, or what you're nostalgic for and so I think there would
have to be like work there of Froto's different now and you have to let
him be different, and you have to let him integrate this experience into who
he is now and that he might never be the Froto from before. So
I think Sam seems to be doing a better job moving and kind of going.
I don't know, you don't see a lot from the post journey,
post quest, but that would be an interesting dynamic, their ability to let
each other change and evolve without feeling threatened by that change, just moving forward.
I mean they can't as the whole parton point at the end the camp,
I think that's that's that's the whole point of the scene is Fertile can't
he can't fit in. He tells he's sitting there at the bar in the
Green Dragon telling people that he still feels like he's in a dream. And
when he is writing the final chapters of the book, it's where he describes
that quote that was so heartbreaking and powerful and I'm just gonna read it because
it stuck out to me so hard that this was this is the way people
feel, and that's why there's so many divorces in returning veterans and military and
other military but first responded relationships, so that people go through and see things
that they bond with people who understand and they perceived can understand them that the
other people who love them in their life can sometimes fall guilty of trying to
hold them to the version they used to that feels so painfully inaccessible to them
that they can't be with that person anymore. And Photo has said at the
end of how do you pick up the threads of an old life? How
do you go on? When in your heart you begin to understand there is
no going back. There are some things that time cannot mend, some hurts
that go too deep that have taken hold. Well, Matt, no,
I should we take a break? Sure? Right? Is there anything else
about Chosen family or relationships that we see in this movie that we want to
make sure to point out before we move on? I think the only thing
that I would want to say, because so much movie, so complicated and
song we could talk for literally years about it. The thing that I want
to point out is the way that Arwin and l Round go through navigating Arwin
is about to leave any father is going to be very happy. His daughter
is making a sensible choice in keeping herself safe. When Arwin has that vision
or foresight of her son with Eric Barn, she turns back from going on
ship to the Undying Lands and returns and forces Elron to reforge the sword.
And seeing that kind of thing happen in Chosen Families does happen quite a bit
where a parent who wants a child to make a safer choice in their partner
or a more logical choice, a smarter match, to not do something stupid,
not do the big move, not move across the country for this person,
not go to college with someone, and watching el Ron, who had
been fighting against it, even recruiting Aragorn to fight against what Arwin wanted and
chose with her free will and agree acquiesc and even essentially bless the relationship even
though his daughter was choosing a life of death. I think is an important
lesson for people to learn in the way you have to create space for children
to find their own chosen family, because they're going to with or without you.
But it will be a much healthier experience for everyone if you guide them
without forbidding them from making their own choices. With their own free will as
they become little grown ups and even big grown ups who are thousands of years
old in the case of Arwin, and then those children might choose you to
be part of their chosen family. Right, because we can choose our family
of origin to be part of our chosen family. Many of us choose not
to do that. But I mean, my favorite example of this is from
The Golden Girls, right, I know, which I fandom jumped, but
it is my favorite example of that because we see these four women living together,
and we have a mother and daughter, and they have chosen each other
as chosen family, even though they are also family of origin. So you
know, you let your kids make choices they might choose to keep you around
and letting them operate their life in the way that they see fit, even
if you disagree, it's the best way you can influence that chance that your
child makes you part of their chosen family. Because I think something I don't
remember it was Brittany your hand is one of you said it that. I
think it's Brittany watching what's happening with the millennial generation and the Zoomers after us.
Is the blood is thicker than water. Mentality that we were taught.
We are saying a very firm nab bro too as a generation, and the
Zoomers are taking after we don't have to keep you in our chosen family just
because we're blood. Yeah, it has to be earned. That's so funny
because I'm gen X, I didn't have But I also think that was just
my family more tip well, I mean like when they're living the full quote,
which is blood is thicker than the blood of the whatever is thicker than
the water of the loan. So the actual full quote means that your chosen
family is stronger than your family of origin because you are actively choosing and you
go through things together versus you just happen to be related to each other.
Wait, but are you Are you saying people misquote and misuse scripture? Yeah?
Is it even scripture? Impeare, Yeah, it's from Shakespeare. I
think it is from the same scripture. I think it's from the same concept
as like band of brothers. I have no idea. The only thing that
I was thinking in terms of relationships kind of in general, was how seeing
the stress of the situations that they're all in really made me think about how
no matter what your relationship is like with someone when a lot of stress,
I mean like unbelievable amounts of stress, right, Like we're not talking about,
oh, you just had a shitty day, right, We're talking about
the world is gonna end. Things are pretty fucking awful. Um that what.
It just made me think of couples, and it made me think about
how how important it is to have tools that you can use together in order
to get through times that are harder than others, because, as we know,
life happens. And it just really made me think about all the different
kinds of couple work that could be done here in this setting, with all
of these different couples, all these different groups of people. Because your relationship
can feel very good and very healthy and very supportive, and then all of
a sudden one of you lose us a parent, or your child is ill
or whatever, or lose a pet. There are so many different things that
can happen that create different kinds of stress and relationship. And it just made
me think about how kind of like we see here, Even with Mary and
Pippin, who seemed to kind of go along with each other for most of
the time, in most different ways, even they have us a place where
Mary is like, you've got to stop, man, You've got to stop
being curious about shit and then saying sorry afterwards, because it's getting fucking old,
and it's and at this point where we are, it's causing true problem,
not just oh like now we had to run away from the garden faster
than usual, but now Saron thinks that you are proto and that's the whole
other problem that you created. So that's just something else that I thought about
with relationships in the film, and just wanting to kind of point out to
people that part of going to couples therapy, part of getting help in general,
is getting tools that will help you navigate all different kinds of stressful situations,
and that anybody can come to couples therapy in orders to get those tools.
Doesn't have to be something where you're waiting till a certain time. And
I know I talk about this all the time about how coming sooner is better
than coming at the end, but also just that I hear when I talk
to people about going to couples therapy, I hear a lot about how well,
is it that bad? Is it that bad that we have to go?
Is it that bad, that this is something that's like, here's the
thing. It shouldn't be something that you do once your relationship is so bad
that you can't stand each other anymore. You should be going and getting these
tools soon. So that was just something that the movie maybe think of that
I want to make sure that I talked about. I mean, it's a
great point because I think that is a common theme in this movie of relationships
that are historically solid getting very fraid, specifically the Hobbits, You're right,
like Mary and Pippin and Salmon Frodo really struggling. And I see the same
thing where people would have been fine if this really tragic thing didn't happen.
Are these really stressful outcomes weren't happening? Because I work a lot doing family
therapy when one of the specifically the kids and the work that I've done,
have been in like severe crisis sometimes even like attempting where it's thrown the parents
for a loop and trying to help them through. We have to be different
people now, and like, how are we taking it out on each other?
Are stress out on each other? And I would imagine a good deal
of the Mary Pippin stuff is them taking the stress out on each other.
And also the way we used to navigate around the world has to adapt,
and I think Mary seems to be adapting a little bit better than Pippin.
And I see that in real life with couples and families I work with,
for one is kind of getting the gidda up quicker than the other one,
and that can cause a real schism between them, because, like you were
seeing Hannah, even the situations I've done, it's not just little things,
Like we're talking about something that has massive implications that could really endanger us or
our loved one. So you have to get your shit together and we have
to be on the same team. And the stuff that used to fly cannot
fly anymore. And I know we're changing the rules mid game, and we
have to change the rules mid game, and I wonder with Pippin that would
be really hard to hear you know that that was something that had to happen.
You can just take a break here, moving on to our next topic
here, purpose and heroism. I think this is one of the resounding themes
of this movie, watching people who must stand and overcome impossible odds. I
kind of want to make hand sing the impossible dream hair given her love for
classic musical theater, but she's going to stab me with her eyes if I
do that. I ran crew for Manelamancha one summer. I was a theater
kid. But you got you gotta pay me, you gotta pay me to
sing right. I was like, it was one of the songs I learned
an invoice lessons, so I could do it. But I'm not going to
because no one's paying me either. So, but recognizing the relevance of that
song and these kinds of situations that make these stories interesting is what do people
do against impossible odds? How do they still fight when they know they will
die? And we see that make stories interesting sense forever because those stories are
also real. Human beings have to overcome impossible odds to continue to survive.
And how do we find the strength in ourselves to stand up against impossible evil
knowing we may not come home again, but if we don't stand up,
there won't be a home to come back to in the first place. And
that's certainly the theme of the book with this and the movie is that something's
threatening everything and we must all come together, band together, set aside our
petty differences and stand up against this evil or it will consume us. And
watching the way that people have to do that is fascinating because you have to
put aside the inherent prime directive you are hardwired with, which is to stay
alive. Some things can become greater than our own prime directive that can enable
us to throw ourselves into situations we might not come out of. And finding
our connection to purpose is how humans do that. And the narrative process of
watching characters go through that, I think draws connection to the moments where we
have envisioned ourselves doing the same thing and kind of give us a basis for
how you do that. Watching Thadin go through motivating his troops after black speech,
right, yeah, that's a good speech, so good all of his,
and he gives several I think the most powerful one and the most important
one did not come on the eve of the battle. It did not come
as they were preparing to charge into a massive horde of Orcs. It came
when Ergorn, Ghimli, and Legolis left. That was the most important and
most kingly moment we saw of all. Besides Ergorn saying no you kneel to
no one yeah, sure, watching Theodin tell them there's six thousand less than
half of what I hope for. But then him going through and motivating his
troops did, no matter what, we have to go. This is upon
us, whether we like it or not. We must go, and we
have to fight, and if it is to be our end, let it
be such an end, which was where he started in Helm's Deep, really,
but then carrying that message forward over and over again to motivate these people
knowing they don't have enough, knowing they're going to ride into their doom,
but that they have to. And I think for me that's what makes stories
like this and Return of the Jedi and the actual good. Closing chapters of
trilogies where you watch people go having to go up against impossible situations requires us
to put aside the parts of ourselves that I have any interest in keeping us
alive, and have full trust that whatever happens, we're doing the right thing
and some things are worth dying for. This is making me think I'm currently
reading Young's biography. I'm actually listening to Young's biography. I'm reading In with
my ears. But because I'm doing that, I am feeling very immersed and
young and the collective unconscious. And I feel like moments like this, when
we are handed the opportunity to go towards the light or to embrace our shadow,
we tap into that collective unconscious. We tap into something primal. And
what lives in there is mythology and stories. And it's not so much what
lives in there is our fears of living and dying, but rather the ancient
stories that we're all connected to. And so when I think about Theatin,
for example, we were talking about his belief system of what happens when you
die in battle, and he you know, he's tapping into that story in
the collective unconscious of the Rohrem and going, yeah, we're gonna go We're
going to meet him in battle and then we're gonna go to Horse of all
Allah. And it's really powerful, and I think it comes from I think
it comes from their their mythology, their belief system of like, yes,
I agree, it's what they believe is right, but also that there will
be a glorious death. Yeah. When both of you were talking and Justine,
what was coming to mind and you kind of articulated at Justine, is
it reminds Its just like belief systems of there is something after me. So
it's getting away from the individual and getting more into like you were saying,
the collective, back to the idea of community we're talking about earlier, and
it doesn't have to be religious in the sense of going to heaven or Valhalla
or the Elysian Field or whatever, because we see this now, I think
in the millennial and gen Z generation, which is this idea of I want
to leave the earth. I'm thinking of an after me in terms of climate
change. And we talked about ecological grief in the last and the two tous
episode. We sure did, and I talked about the thinking of the Titanic
and you still have me back. Yeah, But I think because it was
awesome well, and why I wanted to bring that up is I do think
we're getting away from a lot of people aren't getting away from religion. And
I think if we if we put this all under the antle of you have
to believe when there's like life after death, some people push on that understandably
so, and I think it's more of this greater belief that there is something
after me and then not necessarily me getting rewarded after death, but more that
what can be rewarding and feel purposeful and heroic perhaps is the life and the
lands and the community and the world that I'm leaving that will last longer than
me. And I think that's what they're all fighting for. Even the moment
when Frodo is kind of down for the count amongst the lava and Sam is
holding him very romantic and he's like, remember the shy or the strawberries.
And I think in that moment it is serving I wrote down that he's grounding
Frodo. I think in that moment's also serving the purpose of trying to ground
him with like sensory stuff. And also I think it's him reminding him that
there's like this greater purpose, that there is something we're protecting that even if
we don't get to enjoy it, because at that time Sam is kind of
thinking we're not gonna make it out of here, that there's still something beautiful
that our people will continue to enjoy after us. And I think that's where
I think we're seeing a lot of purpose in all the people fighting for climate
change and just systemic change. Is it's not for necessarily us to enjoy,
but for generations after us to enjoy and that can feel good even if you'll
never experience it yourself. And I think that's tapping into these people that go
into battle like the Odin where they're clearly outnumbered. Is it's not necessarily about
if I get to enjoy it. It's that the people after me that last
longer than me, they have something that is meaningful and beautiful. Yeah,
you're talking about legacy. Yeah, and that I think when we think of
legacy, we can think of it in a very ego driven way of like,
I wan't a statue that says my name on it, and I like
young, I want people to about me like like that's what it's about that.
Oh, I want that lady in her forties listening to my biography in
the shower. But it's not necessarily that I could give a shit if my
name is swept to the wind after I die, truly, But the things
I'm fighting for as an individual still have meaning that I hope there's a legacy
of the things that I think are important that live on whether I live on
personally in anyone's mind. And so I think it's a great point just see
that legacy isn't just this super self involved bullshit can be this more beautiful something
is leaving behind me, even if I am not, and it can be
a connection again to the meaning of my suffering. If there is something greater
than myself. However I define that, however that's define, whether it's through
the cultural definition of this is how we are seen as worthy to ride in
the halls of our fathers and be seen with the ancestors looking down on us,
or for other people to enjoy the shire like we have, or the
conversation Gandolf has with Pippin when even he is believing that the battle is lost,
where he's comforting Pippin that death isn't so bad. It's not something you
need to fear. Now we can look upon it and smile. He was
very, very Marcus Aurelius philosophy. There. All we can do is smile
back, that death isn't so bad, it's not something to fear, and
we can be brave and fight our fight. Now. Let's not crumple here
and make this our end, but let's embrace it. And watching the different
ways that this movie alone showed the importance what you're saying, Britty, Yes,
people are abandoning religion. Religion has been used to hurt people in a
great many ways. To quote the greatest philosophers ever lived, George Carlin,
more people have been killed in the name of God than any other reason.
But that doesn't mean we should abandon spear, virtuality and a connection to things
that are bigger than us. However that is defined. Whether that can be
through the lens of one religion or another is irrelevant to the land of the
therapist, who needs to sit with the client and help them find and understand
their reasons to keep on when they're in immense pain, and how to make
meaning of their suffering, to provide purpose to their life, and how people
define that. Even as we see the different cultures across this movie, Grapple
with Doom is completely subjective, and it's okay to operate within the realm of
the speaker and let that be in our world, let it be within the
realm of the client without needing to correct or modify or reframe anything other than
helping them connect to how do you define yourr own meaning and reasons for keeping
on within this, whether that's through the metaphorical charge of a thousand orcs in
Roquai and just in case we thought we were doing giant elephants with spike tusks
and holy fant please, they're clearly a different species. Yes, is evidenced
by four tusks and ginormousness. Can I share a sad story? Yes,
what a beautiful story about a client who I will not name, obviously,
but a client who was dying and who did not have a faith tradition of
their own. So some of the work that we did was I said to
them, you know, they're like, I'm dealing with this pretty well,
but I don't know what happens after And I said, well, if if
you don't believe in anything specific, then anything is possible. And so what
are the stories that help you make meaning of your life? And Lord of
the Rings was one of them. And so we fan fixed the afterlife for
that client to be that the curtain can roll back and there will be white
shores. And so did that person really believe that was what was going to
happen? I don't. I don't know. Was it just a pretty metaphor
maybe? But it helped ease their transition from this world to the next.
So stories matter, they do they do in connection to some kind of reason
why you're going through something and what you're trading for, and sometimes that can
be the pain of knowing that you're terminal. But I think that's a beautiful
way to let something that provided meaning to them or reasons they did not yet
understand now bridge into something immediately relevant. Probably helps that person a great deal.
Realized that even if I don't have a predetermined narrative that I've been preached
to believe, I can find one that's been relevant to me and choose to
believe it's going to go that way and find peace in that. And I
think that's exactly what Gandalf did for Mary. Yeah, and watching that happen
was beautiful as I'm sure that interaction was with your client, and while you're
remembering it, I'm sure it helped that person tremendously face but they knew they
were facing hopefully it was. It was impactful to me too, you know,
I was the Gandolf in this situation, um, and it was very
impactful for me to see someone facing the hardest thing we all face and saying
I think this would help me, Like, Okay, that's amazing. Yeah,
we pulled a modern mythology out that's helping you ease your transition to what
comes next, which is that ass right you don't just you know, think
you get to make a new bumper sticker that can co opt an old one
one of the Internet's favorite phrases, if you if you can be anybody,
be Batman. But now you can say, if you can be anybody,
be Gandolf. I would much rather be Gandolf than Batman. Hear that girl
from an easy choice, honestly wizard or rich guy in a rubber suit.
Yeah, you know, self actualized person or you know, messy, messy
adolescent boy with too many resources and not enough people telling him, Hey girl,
what's this about. But to get to be Gandolf and help someone deal
with their own invading army of forks is pretty cool. And to be able
to do that within the framework of the book you wrote, which came from
your treatment the artical orientations actualize into something meaningful you is even cooler. You
can read more about that story in The Grieving Therapist. Caring for yourself and
your clients When it feels like the end of the wor feel very am radio
of you in like a very fun way, before. Have you very gross
call me? Yes, I think it's such as a powerful thing in the
story of watching just watching people, and what draws us to these is what
would I do if it's what makes zombie story so interesting? What would I
do if this happened. Hopefully die quickly in a zombie apocalypse, oh god,
not be eaten slowly by a horde. Yes, I've thought about this.
This is literally why I train at the gym. My trainer has every
every time he redoes my training plan, it has something to do with the
zombie apocalypse because he's because I'm like, that's the only way I'm showing up
and working out. If I'm running, I better be chased. Well,
in this metaphor, you are certainly being chased by something that wants to eat
you. Just for the record, but I think something you're bringing up,
Ben, in this idea of going quote unquote towards your death is that resolution.
You know. We see that with sam even though they make it through,
and I mean a lot of them make it through, not everybody,
but and it reminds me of when I practice radical acceptance with clients of how
do we find meaning and what is actually possible? And practice like radical acceptance
around what is no longer in our control or no longer the direction we are
heading into. We have to move forward instead of hitting our head against a
wall that's never going to become a door. And so I think bringing this
back into the work I do is I think that's a big part of it
is practicing radical acceptance. Not necessarily about like marching towards your death when I
talk to my clients, but I think it helps. It can help us
find meaning and what's actually happening, versus getting stuck on what's no longer available
and then feeling just getting stuck in that antagonistic space within ourselves of trying to
make something movable or control something that is no longer controllable. Because though they
do make it out Salmon Frodo, I think in that scene where he's like
when we make an out of here, is he is practicing radical acceptance and
trying to find peace with the situation they're in instead of being miserable in the
last moments potentially of his life. And that is, Yeah, that's an
actual practice that I bring into the work I do, And it helps you
to be present and to be mindful kind of what you were saying, like
going into battle for these characters is that you have to be actively present,
actively mindful, and radical sepings can also help with that too, a big
radical acceptance curly yep, it helps. It helps in these situations tremendously to
be able to radically accept a great many things very quickly, which is that
you may be about to die, but if you're gonna die, how are
you going to go out? That appeals to some people like you see Gandolf
I get again that. You see these people their morales starting to break,
and somebody draws them back to their values m which is what j Scene has
been hitting really hard. That draws them back to their values, that brings
them out of their individuality and back into the collectivism of these collective unconscious right
like they're tapping back into this we are doing this together. And the group
think is an example of that. But group think is usually used in bad
terms, but group think can also result in amazing things happening, And you
see Gandolf redirect or attention to it. No matter what comes through those gates,
you will stand your ground. You are soldiers of Gondor. He is
redirecting them back to their oath, to their meaning, to how they define
themselves in the world, their social roles, all of these things that have
provided purpose for them against the worst odds, and it helps them temporarily suspend
their connection to the parts of them that have any desire to keep themselves alive
and focus only on what needs to be done. That's really important to understand
about how heroism develops, because people must suspend their connection to that or they
won't be able to do what needs to be done, including sacrificing their own
life. There's story after story of people, including one Medal of Honor winner
who threw himself on a grenade to save his entire patrol. He had half
a second to decide whether he was gonna take that blaster everyone was, and
he decided in that moment, I will take this so that they can go
home. And how you make such an impossible decision must require you to suspend
the idea that your life is more important than everyone else's. Your belief is
in reality, and watching that happen over and over again in this movie and
every myth is fascinating to me. Battle has a way of breaking people out
of the egocentrism that they go into it with that I'm going to come home.
I know that I am here as a highly trained, highly skilled individual,
carrying these weapons and wearing armor to end the lives of my enemies.
But because of egocentrism, people they don't understand and can't fathom that. You
know, the guy on the other side, he's doing the same thing you
are and wants the same thing you are, which is to go home,
and he will kill you to do that. I think it's fascinating to watch
and understand that there's moments in battles where even that gets destroyed and you realize
that the idea that it can't happen to me not true, and you have
to deal with that and still keep going. And I think that's where these
stories I'll get interesting. We can see it with that, or Commander stand
your ground to a giant piece of wall gets trepashated him and even he realizes
that no matter how tough and badass and goofy looking you are, and how
many grizzled battles you've seen in a Viteran you are, and how do you
deal with that and still keep going and not turn and run the other way.
I have to find something within yourself to suspend a lot of parts.
All right, anything else about purpose and heroism before we switch over to treatment?
All right, we will take another break here, all right? Who
wants to go first with treatment? I'll go. Professor Justine steps up to
the plate, him taking after young Uh the book I'm currently listening to.
Okay, So I have I have chosen to do family therapy with denne Thor
and Pharamer. I am imagining a world in which we get to them before
Dennithor loses his marbles and tries to burn them both alive. Sure, so
you know what, I come intervene before denne Thor sends Pharomere back to protect
the already lost area, and I come in, and I would be curious
with them. Have we grieved for Boromere? And the answer is no,
because we just found out Boomer is dead? You know, in one of
my favorite scenes with Gandolph and Pippin, and Gandolf's like, it's better you
don't mention anything about Boomer dying. Also, don't say anything about Frod or
the ring any better if you don't say anything at all. Absolutely, we
all have that friend. Oh, yes, for sure. But you know,
we get in there and we find out, oh, you just found
out that your son is dead. And then Gandolf, in one of his
less classy moments, he's like, you can grieve for born here later we
need some stuff. I was like like, I like, that's a big
yikes right there. We don't even have a we're sorry for your loss,
you know. So I'd like to take a moment to sit down with them
and say, hey, you know, Denne Thor, I'm guessing Pharamir is
also sad that his brother has died. Has that occurred to you? And
he would say no, because I don't think Denni Thor has thought outside of
himself maybe ever. Yeah, And I'm going to speculate that's because of trauma
in his earlier life. I can't prove that, but but I'm gonna okay,
because I don't know is Denna Thoran that's summarillion. I don't know.
He might be in the appendices somewhere. Someone will write and tell us someone
so yeah, someone will be like, um, so here's Denni Thor's early
childhood trauma? Or is Daniel Hand He'll know Okay, great, so someone
will write us. But I'm guessing that he had his own childhood trauma which
led him to feel like he needed to really become something great, and so
he becomes the steward of Gondor and it becomes his entire identity. Right,
So I'd be curious to know from Danna Thor what what was it like for
you to be a kid Jeff siblings? What were your parents like? Can
you tell that to Farremere? Has Farremre ever heard about your family of origin?
To which Farremre would be like, this dude has never spoken to me
other than to tell me I'm a piece of shit. I'd be like,
okay, yeah, Danna Or do you hear the do you hear your son's
experience of you? How's that feel? So? I just want to I
want them to be able to share their stories, the stories of their lives,
and see each other as people and start to be able to find maybe
not a swath of compassion, but some compassion points for one another, and
from those compassion points, hopefully we could keep ourselves from having a break with
reality and trying to burn ourselves alive. And uh yeah, that's that's where
I'd start my work with them. That sounds like some really good, deep
work, And I think you would be able to get some really cool movement
or some really powerful individual sessions out of Faremere later if that went poorly,
Yeah, I mean, I think it's probably very likely that Dena Thor would
fire me. But careful with your words there, Justine, bring me some
sticks in oil. Oh I was not thinking that. Yeah, dennith Or
would send for the guards and I would be I would be burned. That
would be upsetting. No, I think he would just cast me out and
tell me to die in whatever way I saw fit. Another favorite scene.
Yeah, but I think this would help Farremere. Even if Denneth Thor couldn't
make a lot of a lot of movement, we'd at least be able to
help Farremere. And in that way, maybe he and a Owen could start
their relationship in a nice spot. Probably would recommend some couples for them.
Just you know, he's going to be joining a new family, They've got
some new cultural stuff. She just got out of being head over heels for
the King of Man. So you know, there's some works don't feel a
little by that, don't feel that doesn't bring up any threatening feelings. Right,
It's not like he's the king of all men. Oh, he is
just like just unreasonably handsome. He is Vego Mortenson is one of those crimes
up good yes actors saying right, I didn't like his clean look at the
end. I was like, Greece, no, give me a grimes up
good like you know, and dirty and he's sure to be open, you
know. I mean, you just rolled down a hill. Okay, I
guess sexy raccoon. Yes, I got some garbage for him, you trash
panda. Um. I think it's powerful. I just I think. I
think just anything that's powerful, I think it's good. I think the only
thing I wanted to add to that is just those those sessions where you have
the family, sessions where it can go bad sometimes are really important because they
can help people get unstuck, yeah, from the reality of like well what
if my dad just find it gets it together and like yeah, no ya
talk about radical acceptance, Yeah right, let's have it thrust in our face.
That that reality gets shattered sometimes is the thing that people need. And
I think those are powerful, even if it's devastating. Sometimes sometimes we need
to be devastated, and we protect ourselves from the devastation thinking we can't survive
it, and it's false. You came with everything you need to survive anything.
But those moments sometimes are really painful to watch, but also create movement.
Yeah, shake up the system of One of my favorite marriage and family
therapists is Carl Whitaker. He was an experiential family therapist and his whole thing
was all about shaking up systems. He would he would throw frisbees at people.
He would get out the bataka sticks and have people like hit each other,
you know, not actually hurt each other, but you know, just
like, hey, let's just show up and let's just be in this ship
and let's throw something at it and see what happens. I threw a frisbee
at you. Now what you know for it? Let's just do something totally
different than what you usually do and see what happens. It's either guy the
Simpsons writers got their hands on in the first season or they were like shocking
each other and beating each other with foam bats and like figuring out how to
take the foam off the bat. Maybe it was probably Whittaker inspired. Yeah,
I call him the honey Badger of Merriton Family Therapy. I'm here for
it, man, would you like to go next? Sure? So I
think for me the person I would want to do therapy with would be Sam
after Frodo leaves to get on the ship. Because the way Frodo did that,
Me and my buddy were discussing it as we were watching. He's like,
I don't know, man, that's like, that's a clean break.
I mean what he did that that way to let people not nag him and
trying to talk him out of what he wanted to do the whole time.
And I was like, well, that in a metaphor for some things that
we talk about therapy, and but anyway, rather than avoid trigger warnings,
looking at how important that is to understand, Sam just had no warning.
Grief dropped on him. And you don't get any opportunity to pre grief like
you do when you know someone is dying. You go through a lot of
steps of pre grief or just flat grief materia. You want to look at
it, I look at it is like you get opportunity to start grieving early
when you realize someone is terminally ill, and you get the opportunity to start
moving through that process. As you watch them succumb to the illness, you
watch them look thin, you see them not talking anymore, not eating anymore.
They start to not look like themselves, and it gets easier to accept
that you're going to lose them for many cases but not all. But Frodo
kind of robbed them of that. He just was like, Yeah, I'm
going to see hugs all around it and buy I love you, guys,
but I gotta go. I think Sam, despite having all the resources set
up in the world, by actualizing and going right up to that girl and
doing exactly the thing he said, I'm gonna go right to Rosie and tell
her I love her and ask her to marry me. And he did.
He did, and she said yes. And despite him having children and a
home and a whole life to look on and Frodo giving him those words,
things are not so simple as the person leaving told me, it's okay to
have a life if that's his love. We were debating kind of off Mike
here in a little break that as we're doing research that the blood is thicker
than water quote some people some scholars, although a note it was uncited said
that that quote was actually referring to the bonds you form when you bleed with
people and go through war, and that that is thicker than any other relationship.
And in the terms of the context of this film, that's taken as
a truth, Sam wouldn't need a lot of help reframing his new meaning and
finding acceptance in it while letting go and grieving the loss of Froto, because
he is going to be losing the connection to the person who understands him the
best. That person can unfortunately, never be Rosie, as we already established,
no matter what past Sam she knew or present Sam, she knows,
there is no one else there who knows Sam like Frodo, and there's no
one there that Sam loves like Frodo. And he's going to be losing that
part of himself, that understanding, and as he reckons with the brokenness,
though by the narrative armor he's protected by, he's less affective than Froto was.
I don't think Sam is part of the wounds that have settled in,
but in reality he would have them. He would have them, and this
would be a very difficult thing. So I think a lot of existential work
would be the direction I would want to go of. How are you redefining
your meaning now? How are you finding meaning in what you've done while not
having to let go of what you did and the person you became to save
the world that your children are never going to know or care about. That
you don't lose that because you're assuming this new identity and let you find meaning
that you did all that to have this and how we work through those I
think would be where I'd want to go. It wouldn't necessarily need to be
what I would usually say would be trauma trauma, trauma trauma, let's do
some deep trauma work, I think more. Or this would be how are
we going to find meaning and acceptance that what all that I did was for
something? But I don't have to let it all go or the post traumatic
growth go. I can incorporate all of that into a new identity that uses
everything I've been to be the version of me I want to be, a
need to be for this reality, and that's who I would pick. Okay,
I can go next. I think I would work with Frodo, just
because he was really reminding me of I've worked with multiple people at this point
that have had cancer and now they're in remission or in recovery or whatever however
we want to think of it. And a common theme that comes up is
I thought I would feel different. I thought I would feel grateful or alive
or full of joy, and I don't. And so now I feel how
I feel, and then an added layer of what's wrong with me that I
don't feel better? Different relief ticks I did, full of life whatever,
And I think protos the little excerpt of photo after more Door pre Ship reminding
me of that in this idea, that we will feel miraculously different. Either
we'll snap back to who were before something hard happened to us, or we
will feel so grateful that the thing is over that will almost be like an
uber, joyful, alive lived in person and then being really hard on ourselves
when we're not, and also not allowing ourselves to integrate who we are now
and all the things that happened to us up to this point. And so
with him, I think I would just want to do that kind of work
that I do. It's a lot of processing, kind of telling the story,
so it can be sort of narrative in nature and my job in those
situations, I think is a therapist is a lot of reframing and giving permission
to not feel a type of way because you think you should. And so
a lot times in that space, it's just me helping people form who they
actually feel like they are now and get rid of the shoulds and do a
lot of thought challenging and that kind of stuff. And yeah, I said,
like give themselves permission to even grieve who they were before and make space
for who they are now. And that's not a bad thing to not be
who you were before. And actually we're maybe causing a lot of undue suffering
trying to be that person and feeling fake, and I think that can be
what can push people to isolate themselves like maybe Frodo was doing, because they're
not feeling home anymore. So a part of it is grieving what home used
to feel like, then changing what it is to feel at home again and
that that can be a brand new feeling while also acknowledging the grief that comes
from the nostalgic feeling of home and just reclaiming that that can be, like
I said, very narrative in nature and exploratory. That's kind of more like
the talk therapy route. For it's very it can just be spitballing back and
forth like what could who are we now? I try to remind people that
I don't have any preconceived notions and no one's going to hear anything they're saying
in my office. So you can really be free if you feel comfortable in
whatever you want to express, and if that is feeling ungrateful and how hard
that feels, and all the kind of messy quote unquote ugly feelings that fly
in the face of the cute scene narrative. We see a lot in media
that toxic positivity, in my opinion, a very anti toxic positivity, and
orange well also, But here's the thing, it's not even thought of like
that. So I think sometimes my job is to label things as toxically positive
and give that permission to people that I work with. That is another version
of rigidity, and people who live by those I don't know, Instagram kind
of lifestyles whatever. I'm always a little you know, suspect of how they
really are feeling or this idea that one size fits all. So it's just
a lot of challenge rigidity and that kind of thing. So that's the work
I would do with froto, just very open ended, very talking it through,
and also because I think it would be hard for him. And why
it is good to go to therapy when people say like, why don't you
just talk to your friends is like I said, my role is I'm a
totally uninvolved party, so they don't have to have any weird feelings of like
guilt or ungratitude or all the feelings that can hold you back from being really
honest with friends. Sometimes especially friends that were along with you. I would
imagine it would feel really hard to be honest with Sam, especially since Sam
sacrificed so much almost his life to get him through that. So then to
be honest with Sam that I'm not really feeling it, like being alive isn't
doing it for me like it used to would be so hard to say to
that person. So what's nice about therapy is that you have a space with
someone who's not personally invested where you can be really honest and I'm not gonna
and there's not going to be any cloudiness around my relationship to it. I
don't have any attachment to whether you feel grateful about being alive right now,
or if you feel grateful that you live through whatever, And so I think
that's so I would be interested if he could do that work, if or
he could have done that work, if he needed to sail off at the
end like he did, maybe he would have you know, you never know,
he might have always had to do that at that time, or maybe
he wouldn't have had for a while, right, But it could have been
interesting to see if he would have been able to shake that up for him,
because I think that's really hard. People want to go back to home
whatever that meant to them, and are really hard on themselves if they can't
be the person they used to be to their detriment. It's just it can
be really sad, and it doesn't have to be that way. So that's
what I would do with Frodo. I think you're right on, and you
know the quotes that we shared earlier, right is you can't be the same
person you were after something happens to you. You're the new version that had
that happened to you. Yeah, but you're not broken or or a ruined
or damage or you can't have a good life. I think people get stuck
on those really rigid concepts if they can't be who they used to be,
and it's like, well, you can just be a different version of yourself,
and that can also be very rad if you let it be rad right,
you know. But that's where I'm at, Hannah. Do you want
to take us home a treatment? Yeah? So I thought about working with
Pharremere with the idea that his dad died. Oh and so a part of
the reason why I wanted to work with him is because he has now experienced
the loss of his brother and the loss of his dad after this huge battle
that just happened, and so in how intense that would be for him,
and how hard it would be for him to maybe even to even attempt to
grieve for them, just because it could feel so scary to have that part
of your those two biggest parts of your life, and then to be in
a different position as well in the kingdom. I'm not saying that he wouldn't
still be the captain of the armed force people or whatever, but I would
imagine that he would be I'm sure he would still have some role of some
kinds. Yeah, he'd still be someone like, he'd be someone important,
but maybe he doesn't want to be anymore. You know, it would be
really interesting to see where he is and how he's feeling about again. You
know, the thing we've been talking about the entire episode really is being able
to find meaning, and would he be able to find meaning? And so
I think some of the things that I would want to do with him is
just really make sure that I'm allowing him to have the space that he needs
to grieve in whatever way he needs to. And sometimes part of grieving is
reparenting yourself in some ways, and we might have to do some work of
reparenting from the things that he didn't get from Dinosaur and from things he never
got from him, and helping him identify those things so that maybe he doesn't
fall into a pattern where he's seeking out another relationship or where he doesn't know
how to act. Because we also don't know what he will be like with
Rigorn, he might have the same response that Boromir had and so which would
make a lot of sense because they both come from the same family. So
I think it would really a lot of our work would be around me making
sure that he has the space to grieve for the things he needs to grieve
for and to help him find meaning and to help him find to figure out
what he's going to be focused on now and really what he wants his life
to look like, because these two huge parts of his life are now gone
and he's in a new world in so many different ways, as many as
you know most everybody is. But I think that Baromir is in a position
where he could either try to shut everything down and try to just move forward.
So knowing sometimes the culture of the military in our system that we currently
have is that mental health isn't important and you need to keep it to your
fucking self because we don't want to hear about it, and if we hear
about it, you might also get in trouble. There's a whole other set
of problems that comes with that. So I think really wanting to allow him
to have that space, I think would be really important and really encouraging him
to be connected to that part of himself and that it's okay, and that
he needs to have time to grieve, and he needs to have time to
figure out who he is and what he wants to do with the rest of
his life. Sorry to interrupting, hid, I was just thinking, especially
now, if he's going to get married and probably have kids of his own,
Like he's going to have to figure out that family stuff or when he
becomes a father. Well, and especially with someone who just actualized and in
set up herself to be the most powerful version of herself that has existed,
the most liberated, the most free, the most powerful, free from the
roles that she had to ascribe and fear of mers coming from a very different
place where he was broken, he did the exact opposite. So those two
as a pair, O good luck. Yeah, I'm sure they would need
couples, Like Justine, I think, are you telling me they're not just
going to fall in love and then everything will be fixed? Well, and
there'd be some power stuff because you know, Aowen ascended to the throne of
Rohan, so and what does that power structure look like with the king of
men? And you know what, and then he's gonna have to go and
right he's inverse gentlemen. Yeah, yeah, Like, and then he's gonna
have to go away from everything that he knows, from the place that he
grew up at, also losing the two people that have had the most impact
on him most likely. I mean there's all different kinds of things that we
could be talking about. He doesn't, he doesn't have a very good self
care plan already. What's going to do outside of his element? Right?
Yeah, exactly, And I mean that might allow him to create space to
create a new version of himself, but I think it would be it's a
trope, right, and that us therapists all know that just because you go
someplace else does not mean all your problems stay where you left them behind slash,
They come with you when you go to this new place. I just
need to get some more different and everything will be different. That's false.
Wherever you go there you are. Yeah. It makes me think about too,
about soldiers who are deployed and are in these really high stress situations and
then whatever happens happens, and then they go back to where their base is,
back home for lack of a better way to say it, and that
then you have to just pretend like nothing happened in some ways and or just
try to find how you go on from your life at this point. And
so it would be it's very similar to that as well, where you're just
put back in a position where are were you allowed to grieve. Were you
allowed to have time to transition. I know the military pretends like they do
a good job of transitioning, but I have two brothers in the military,
and I have yet to see it go well. But it's not good enough.
It's not enough. It's definitely not good enough. So yeah, so
that's what I would That's what I would do for treatment. Okay, we'll
take a final break here and then come back for final thoughts. All right,
I'll go first because I am the least emotionally invested in this fandom,
so I feel like I should just party poop first and then you guys can
pump it up by the end of the Rings killed Joy, I mean I
never want to be killed Joy. I said this many times. I said
this during Rampire Strikes Back episode. I would love to love everything. Why
wouldn't I want to love everything? That would be dope. Sometimes things just
don't hit me, and for whatever reason, Lord of the Rings has not
hit me. I know. It's a bit that I've had for a while
where I pretend like I don't know what Lord of the Rings is, like
totally as if I it's been taken from my brain. And I was telling
Hannah earlier. Today, I feel like I have manifested that bit because I
could not tell you a single thing that happened in the previous movie. And
I was like reading the Wikipedia plot of the second movie out loud to Hannah
and she was having to constantly giving me context to what these words meant.
And I was like, it is amazing how little I retain from this movie
trilogy. And I'm somewhat I read all the Game of Thrones books. I
can get knee deep in a fandom, read fan fake and be a real
nerdosaurus about it. Something about this movie and the names and the things I
was laughing during it at times that I know we're not funny, and I
feel like I was mildly hurting Hannah's those feelings because we were watching it together.
I wasn't meaning too. So here's what I'll say. I appreciate,
I always appreciate and respect when something is very meaningful to a lot of people.
That being said, will I ever watched these movies again? Probably not
unless Hannah makes me. But I don't want to yunk anyone's um, so
keep on keeping on and that it's just not for me. So that's that
on that just saying what don't you go next? If you don't mind or
so. Lord of the Rings has a very special place in my heart and
for a particular reason, which I will share. So when trigger morning death,
when my dad passed away in two thousand and nine, which was before
I became a therapist, I just kept thinking, I want to go home
because I was in Pennsylvania, that's where my parents lived, and I live
in Minneapolis, so I was in Pennsylvania and all I could think was I
want to go home to Minneapolis, and I want to watch Lord of the
Rings. And it felt really small and insignificant. It felt like I should
be having bigger feelings in that moment, or different feelings in that moment or
something. I don't know more meaningful air quotes, but it's just all I
wanted. And now as a therapist, and specifically a therapist that specializes in
the intersection between pop culture and psychology, I can say what I wanted was
the comfort of Middle Earth and also the archetypal significance of who I saw as
my dad, which my dad i'd had big Gandolph energy and big Bilbo energy.
He was kind of a sage kind of a goofball, and what I
wanted was to go to Middle Earth and hang out with him and be with
my fellowship to support me during this time of grieving. And so it can
be hard for me to watch because it's like I'm going into it's time to
grieve my dad again. But it's also really a beautiful experience for me to
go into that space. And when my client who was dying told me that
Lord of the Rings was so meaningful to them, I was right there with
them, right. Lord of the Rings was very important to me too.
It's a way to imagine that my dad is always alive in that movie.
And also it's a way of me conceptualizing what his afterlife might be because he
was someone who didn't have a faith tradition either, so I often imagine him
in places like going to the Undying Lands, and I think he'd be having
a dope time there playing chess. So this movie is important to me personally
and professionally, and I think it will go back to young one more time.
You know, this movie came right out of the collective unconscious, right
the week all the archetypes are here, and obviously this was from Tolkien's lived
experience, but also from the experience of all of us on our ancestors back
to the beginning of time. And I think that's why it speaks so much
to so many of us. And that's all I have to say about that.
Thank you so much for sharing, Justine. I'll go next. I
love Lord of the Rings. I've tried to read the books many many times.
I can't do it. I can't get through the descripting of everything.
That's where I lost me as well. But I love these films. I
watched them at least once a year usually, and the next time I watched
them on to watch all the extended versions, which I have not done somehow.
I don't know how. I just come over with me. I have
him on four K. Yeah, I just haven't. I just haven't done
it. I'm not going to make Brittany watch any of them again, but
I do. I really love them. I love the speeches. I love
sam I love the relationships. I love the idea of friendship being that beautiful
and that constant. I love how everyone looks ethereal and different at different times
for different reasons. I think where this lighting just shifts just a little Bit
and they look luminous, and I think that that's really that really makes the
film feel magical. And so I love these films and I'll it makes me
want to watch all of the Hobbit films, which I have actually not really
rewatched oddly enough, but yeah, so I love these films. I'll always
watch them. And yeah, that's it. I guess it leaves me and
Hannah see, you can come to my house. I have him on four
K. I just called my buddy over. It was like, hey,
I'm gonna watch Return of the King. Now you wantall where He's like,
yes, no, no hesitation, no context, you know, okay,
awesome. I actually know the dialogue to this film. I know the dialogue
to all the films basically, so that so many times I've seen them.
Well, good, we'll watch the four and a half hour version together and
we will justine you come to Chicago and hang out with us two if you
want. Um. Well, you know, my best friend lives in Chicago
and we wrote a book together that's coming out in July called The Great.
It might be coming to Chicago sometimes great good news. I'm buying a house
in like two weeks. It's big enough for everybody to hang out in and
it'll be a Lord of Rings partying britty you can come to It'll just you
know, we'll give you a corner you can sit in it. So and
you just give me one of those pipes and like give me eleven zis or
second Breakfast or wherever the fuck they call it, and I'll just I'll do
my own private reading in the corner. I'll be watching like hungry games on
like a little iPad in the corner by myself. Well, we still love
you, so you can come. As far as my final thoughts on this,
I absolutely adhered to the idea that this is one of the greatest films
ever. I think when everything everywhere, all at once dethroned it as the
most awarded movie. Before I'd seen it, I had a little bit of
like a little feelings, but then I saw everything everywhere when I'm like,
okay, I accept that. I accept that this is important and good and
amazing for so many reasons. So you know, it can dethrone the return
of the king for holding the throne for twenty years. It's time for something
else to take it that's more modern and relevant. I can accept that but
this movie still holds this very special place in my heart. I think I
remember being in the theater in my hometown. I cannot remember, been trying
to rack my brain what movie was I wanted it was there to see.
When the trailer for the Fellowship of the Ring dropped, it was a surprise
drops who didn't tell anybody who was commons just bam, here it is.
They didn't know any promotion anything because they didn't have to. Oh my god,
just the anticipation right seeing him going, is it secret? Is it
safe? Ire? Like you got really excited because I used to watch They
used to come in on the Disney Channel and that was the only premium channel
we had in my house. We had cable, so that was we were
doing good for you know, the nineties. The Professor as a father and
we watched the cartoon Hobbit so many times that I remember my dad read us
The Hobbit the book, and I just might know I talked about that anytime
we do this. I profoundly loved The Hobbit. I love the Hobbit more
than I love any of these not the movies, but the story. But
this story is so powerful, It's so universal. It covers so many dimensions
of human experience from every considerable aspect, including the times when you actually forge
those friendships when you go away on a journey, which are why I think
toll Can spends so much time on the food and the walking, because that's
what soldiers do. It's a whole lot of nothing and boredom and forging these
friendships, these found family things, and then having to protect them as you
lose. This veneer of war is going to be glorious and awesome, and
you realize it's terrible and awful and people's lives are ending in front of you,
and you have to keep going and seeing how much this story is resonated
for a hundred years and how it continues to throw people and people look forward
to sharing it with their kids. I am excited to continue the love and
phantom of this story because of how universal it is and it's impact on realizing
we can, somewhere inside of us, put all our stupid, petty shit
and divisions aside and stand together against the greatest evil and prevail. I think
is an important thing to have faith in, regardless of whatever faith beliefs you
have, that humans can point get their ship together and stop squabbling over whose
skin color, whose music, whose religion, and realize that there's something bigger
than all of us that we must all fight together against, no matter the
cost. And I think this series ties all of that together in really well
while simultaneously acknowledging that you won't be the same after and that's okay, And
I think that's why it's so important for me. You don't have to be
the same to come home, that there's a place for you somewhere. All
right. While on that beautiful note, we will sign off here. Thank
you just seeing again for joining us. Are there any social media handles you'd
like to share where can people find you? Yes, people can find me
on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Mind Body Fandom because I take a
holistic approach to healing mind body and fandom. And you can find my books,
which I have already name dropped numerous times wherever books are sold. And
you can catch my podcasts Starship Therapies and Dark Side of the Mat wherever you
enjoy listening upon casts. Oh all right, and you can find us as
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everybody, The Journeys over Babes