What is krak a Lakin Fellow Thermonuclear A evers. I am a thoroughly unwell
Dan Valley coming at you live for the first time I think in like six
months or something. I don't know what. The last live podcast we did
was with my certified fantabulous and Thermo Nuclear AF co host mister Grant Hughes,
who has apparently sired the next Dion Sanders of multi sport athletes before they I
don't know which pro level Mac is going to eventually reach, but I expect
him to be in baseball, football, basketball, or maybe pro CrossFit.
At this point, we're here to talk Pascal Siakam. He was traded to
the Indiana Pacers. We'll get into everything, the trade details, the fallout
for the Pacers, the Raptors, the Pelicans were involved a little bit on
all that stuff, maybe some other teams that are impacted. But first,
Grant, how are you doing. I'm very well. I'm glad that you're
upright, you know, in a non laid down, laid out horizontal position.
You know what I should have said, I should have said better than
you are, that that would have been the correct COVID still sucks for anyone
that's just like, man, the amount of weight I lost over the course
of basically thirty six hours. As someone who anyone who listen to this podcast
knows that I was already unhealthily skinny because of going through a bodybuilding prep.
It was honestly impressive that I had that much weight to still lose. But
I took a picture. It wasn't pretty like it was like kind of like
Christian Bale and whatever that movie was where it looked like he was eating.
Yeah, you're the machine. We really let's really try hard to get your
new nickname to be the machinist. Oh please, No, So I'm a
little bit more moonfaced now after eating some actual food, but it still lingers.
So COVID sucks was the moral of the story. But trades do not.
It is trade season. I did want to ask you really quickly as
we let some listeners straggle in here, do you remember the last time we
had before like basically three weeks before the deadline, and we've already had three
blockbusters on the year. There's the annual James Harden blockbuster that happens at the
beginning, and then we've had Ogiannoobi the Knicks now Pascal Siakam to the Raptors.
I know it's very intimately one team was dictating a lot of this,
But I'm trying to think of just where there was this much activity, so
like, this much important activity so far in advance of the deadline. Yeah
no, I mean, you know, and listeners probably do that. My
brain doesn't work without like a prompt. So unless you said, unless you
gave me like a trigger to be like, oh, yeah, this trade
happened, you know, way before the deadline. I don't think I nothing
comes to mind because usually just thinking back about like you know, it feels
like a thousand years ago. But you know, in the off season when
Kevin Kevin Durant wants out and these are the teams he's willing to go to,
and then Nope, didn't trade him in the off season, and then
nope, didn't trade him until the death. Like it just this doesn't happen.
So every time we get past the December fifteenth deadline, where guys that
signed are eligibly be traded, you know, there's this in there's this I
don't know what the you know, an influx maybe or like a rising tide
of like trade content that everybody has to do, and then invariably we're all
reminded of some of you know the fact that like there's only been one or
there's two trades in the last like fourteen years that happened between December fifteenth and
the trade deadline. So it's like it never happens except now that this,
now this does happen. So it's nice because at least we don't have to
just continue to wait and wait and wait until you know, the first week
of February to really start talking about stuff. So we got yeah, you
said it three, right, We've had three significant you know, not Anionobe's
not an all star, but you know he's really substantial out in New York.
Yeah, maybe he will be. But yeah, we've got three big
trades to talk about. So and the biggest is Pascal Siakam is an Indiana
Pacer. So yeah, let's get to trade details on this, and I'll
throw it to you for your initial thoughts and also so that you can speak
to the kids while why promo this on the Twitter machine? The Pacers get
Pascal Siakam and the New Orleans Pelicans were involved in this. They initially sent
and this is I'll get to my note on this in a second before I
throw to you. But the New Orleans Pelicans sent a second round pick and
Kyle Lewis Junior to the Pacers, who had cap space. This gets New
Orleans out of the tacks. That was just a trade, not this exact
move, but that felt fate, a complete New New Orleans was gonna do
it. The Pacers then turned around and traded Bruce Brown, Jordan Warra three
first round picks their own this year. And then it's basically it's the lesser
of four teams Utah, Houston, Los Angeles Clippers, and Oklahoma City Thunder.
It's the Thunder or the Clippers that matter most. It's gonna be a
bottom five first round pick probably in this year's draft, on top of their
own. And then a twenty twenty six first round pick. So Bruce Brown,
Jordan Warra a three first round picks and Kyle Lewis Junior headed to Toronto.
And that first round pick in twenty twenty six is top four protected,
I believe. So I think that was good to get some protections on that.
If you're Indie who's a pretty risk averse franchise. The thing I wanted
to say before I threw it to you, because this is more about the
off season. Kevin Pritchard, Immediately, I know this trade is gonna have
a lot to do with It needs to be in the running for Executive of
the Year because of just looking at the steps that got them here. As
you use your touch space facilitated all of this. So what you're able to
do is you turned Bruce Brown into a human trade exception essentially because of that
huge contract with the team option, and so you're able to send him out
in this deal. What you were also able to do with your remaining cap
space was take on Kyra Lewis Junior, and so there are two benefits to
doing that is that you can then reaggregate him because you weren't over the cap
after trade. I saw some confusion on this on Twitter, but they were
under the cap, so they were able to reaggregate him with these other guys.
Here's what that did under the new trade rules. It got them to
the Pascal Siakam number without including an Obi Toppin or Andrew Nemhard or Jalen Smith
or somebody else. If you look at this salary, going out now under
these current trade rules where they can take back one hundred and twenty five percent
plus two hundred and fifty k of the salary, it would not have worked
under the old trade rules. And so that's just a really good process by
the front office. Regardless of what you think of Siakam's fit, what the
other value they gave up to get him, you have to kind of pat
the PACER's runt office on the back for this one, to where not only
were they able to structure it where they didn't give up either of their two
blue chip prospects and Ben mcmather and Jarris Walker, but they were actively able
to keep guys who you know, Jalen Smith and Andrew Demhart specifically are important
to them. I don't know how they feel about Obi Top and he's been
hit in his threes lately, so there's that to think about. But so
I wanted to shout out the Pacers's front office for that. I thought that
was a really good process of events for them that led them here. Yeah,
I mean, just going back to the Brown, the Bruce Brown piece
of it, I don't I don't think you could really find anybody that thought
that was a bad signing at the outset, and it was because you know,
well, one, he's going to come in and he started all thirty
three games he played for the Pacers and was a helpful player, you know,
a good you know, good two way guy. And then he's valuable
in that sense. He's valuable as a as like a potential expiring piece to
trade. He's valuable. I mean, like I would say, you know,
from Toronto's perspective, you would look at Bruce Brown as like we could
either It's kind of the same thing as Indiana thought about him, like he
could just be a piece that we keep. We don't have to, we
have the team option, but as a trade chip. Now, like that's
a twenty two million dollar guy you can send out to a team that wants
to cut that much off of the next year's cap, and like, so
you know, you might get another first if you're Toronto for him potentially if
there's a team that really wants to to to just you know, play the
cap savings game. So yeah, really well done by the Pacers. I
think zooming out a little bit like this, So the package that it took
to get you know, just putting aside, how shrewdly done. It was
by the pacers. It's it's difficult to really analyze like how well did Indiana
do here and how well did Toronto do just because the one variable we don't
one hundred percent know And maybe there's been maybe you've seen more, you know,
concrete reporting on this, we don't know for sure, like was Toronto
gonna just lose Siakam? Like was there a chance that they were gonna re
sign him in free agency? How much of an assurance did Indie get that
Siakam will stay? Like because it was just a flat and no for everybody
for a minute there, and then reporting came out subsequently that suggested like,
oh, he's pretty happy about it. He might, you know, he'll
resign. What's that gonna cost? We just don't know those variables, so
it's hard for me to really form Like if you're asking me to grade the
trade, I would have a hard time doing that just not knowing what those
what that variable is. I take it you weren't tasked with grading the trade
in the AFTERMA I was not. I would not asked with that. I
probably would have come up with something, but I think I would have like
hedged and couched as much as possible just to you know, breaking news.
As part of this trade, the Raptors just waived Christian Cloco. This is
why we waited until ten forty in Eastern Times. We needed to know who
was getting way for the Raptors as part of this. So yeah, Christian
Quioco out. So I guess, like, let me ask you, do
you have a stronger feeling on like you know, if you were grading it,
how you would look at it for Indiana? I mean, I think
it's like, Lookkam was Indiana was my Siakam team just because I thought of
the possible places he could go, he made the most sense from an on
court fit perspective, from can they resign him? Do they have the resources
to do it? Like the Pacers were the team I thought he should go
to. And I think the package that he gave up, like at least
two of those picks are gonna be in the twenties and who know, you
know, so like they're not giving up these premium assets. You didn't have
to give up a core piece. So like, I think it's just an
objectively above average I don't know how much above average is it to be?
Is it an a mins for the Pacers, and then I think it's also
good for Toronto. But that all depends on the assumption that you weren't gonna
be able to keep him. You did this instead of losing him for nothing
or paying him more than you wanted to do. You have a stronger reaction
that doesn't have like all the caveats that I do just relate as to not
knowing what's gonna happen with Siacam's next deal. Yeah, so I think one
I think we kind of know what's gonna happen with Siakam's next deal is that
he's going to stay in Indiana and it's going to be for all over close
to the four year max, and his four year max is one hundred and
ninety point eight million dollars. I think now that whole conversation I think impacts
how you feel about this for the Raptors, because did you think that they
didn't want to resign him, did they not even offer the extension? Did
he not want to be there? I think it was clear that he just
wanted the most money possible. Per the reporting, just for the telegraphing of
it, I'm tend to be more comfortable with paying Siakam the max for the
next four seasons than a lot of other people. Runs through he's twenty nine.
Now, I think he turns thirty soon. But this is age twenty
nine season, right, So I'll pay him through his age thirty three season,
no problem. Now, if he wants a fifth year, you're definitely
gonna want him to take a discount off the top of it. Yeah,
so this is age twenty nine season because paying him through age third before certainly
a risk. And so you did give up three first round picks for the
right to pay Pascal Siakam, but like you weren't gonna get him anyway.
And so a lot of people saying, well, Indy could have just signed
him in free agency, and the answers, no, they couldn't have,
because you know what would have happened. He either won, would have went
somewhere else because Indy doesn't bag these types of free agents. I'm sorry,
it just it doesn't happen. Or two, he would have been traded elsewhere
and they would have resigned him. Because everything that we have heard is that
Pascal Siakam wanted to get his most money possible, and this whole all NBA
making that qualifying for the Supermax, knowing the Raptors were never gonna give it
to him. It was just kind of like, well, what are you
doing. I don't think he was married to staying in Toronto. I think
people took that narrative swung it way out of control. I don't really know
when on behind the scenes between him and MASSI I will say that he owed
nothing to the franchise. He had a game winning shot for the title.
He's made all NBA teams plural, and it wasn't his job to help you
find a move that brought back immediate players, which it seems like the Raptors
were more interested in. And then maybe they have the opportunity to use Bruce
Brown's quote unquote expiring salary go out and now get someone else if they want
to, or you know, kind of change alter the course of the franchise
even more so. I love this for the Pacers from the two perspectives of
you didn't give up any Bruce Brown was helping you now, But that is
just like you can go out now you still have the assets and the salary
matching without giving up Buddy heel to say go get a Royce O'Neal, and
did we just approximate seventy percent of what Bruce Brown was doing for us?
So I love that you didn't give up any long term tangible equity. Where
if you really are high on Jaris Walker, I don't particularly love Bennetcmathern or
Jarres Walker, to be honest, they might be really good. The Pacers
know way more about them than I do. So if you're really married to
those guys and think they can help soon and bennetc. Mathn of course is
already helping. To not give either of them up is a massive win,
and he is just I think Siakam's a perfect fit. And I'm colored a
little bit now. I listened to Samson Folk and Kitlin Cooper rap about this,
so I could they were so smart. Go check out that podcast on
the Raptors Republic that they did. But even just if you zoom out of
the particulars of what happens when teams try to blitz Tyre's halibert now and pass
boll, Siakram's there the minutes without Tyres Haliburt and get more palatable at both
ends of the floor. Miles Turner's job on defense get a lot easier.
Everyone just says, oh, he's been worse this year. Okay, fine,
look at what he's like. He's trying to put out like five alarm
infernos every five seconds. That's why he's probably been been worse. Him and
Siakam complement each other nicely, their insurance against one another. To Turner is
going to be in the final year of his deal next season, and so
if he leaves or you decide that this is financially untenable, that's okay,
Like Siakam can slide up my concern for the Pacers since I think it's probably
best to stick with them for now. You and I both said they need
to skew more three to four than four or five. And I do still
view Siakam, even though he's defended smaller or prefers to defense malls, as
more of the four or five than three to four end of the spectrum.
However, because he's done a good job against some of those they're not wing
matchups, but they're like they're like combo forward matchups. Yeah, it makes
me feel better. And then also you have Aaron N. Smith and you
got to keep Andrew Nemhart as well, that makes it even more palatable to
me, and just to see him and Tyrese Haliburton both play together, and
then what Siakam can do independently away from Haliburton and quietly by the way,
this like if Siakam continues to shoot even league average from three, he's been
on fire for like over a month now from deep, the Pacers just have
this access again to all these wild five out lineups where you have think of
the lineup of Nie Smith, Haliburton, Turner, Siakam and Buddy Healed.
How do you defend that lineup? Yeah, no, I think I guess,
like I just I'm trying to think of, well, like how high
is the upside now, because you know defense is the issue for this team.
I guess you say you would say that, you know, like one
of the big benefits. I think you mentioned it. I'm sure Caitlin and
Samson talked about it. But like you can put Tyree's Haliburton off the ball
once in a while now, which was just like that's not really something that
happens a whole lot with the less teams are denying it to him, and
then you're just kind of like shit out of luck. On that one,
right, so like you do is definitely over burdened as a primary creator,
but as like a change up with you know, he's not he's not gonna
have to score all on his own all the time, and the way that
that might unleash another side. I mean, I don't know how much you
really want to take the ball out of Tyre's Haliburn's hands. It might be
kind of like just almost literally anything else you do is worse than that.
But just as another off gave him and I'm sorry interject, but like,
does it make him less of a sieve on defense if his offensive usage is
streamlined to the point of not exhaustion? Maybe yeah, I mean, I
mean it's one of like it sounds like a dick thing to say, like
can't be a lot worse, So like it might, it might get better.
But defensively, like Nie Smith, Siakam Miles Turner as you're three four
five, like that's a that's a stout defensive. You know, that's sixty
percent of your you know, first unit that can guard. And if the
Pacers, you know, they're gonna score. If we start talking about a
defense that climbs up towards I don't know, like twelfth eleventh like something.
I mean, that might be really over selling it, but like then we're
really now, it's now they're more than just this is a fun team that
is exciting, but nobody's gonna really be all that concerned about playing against them
in a playoff series for example, that takes them to that turns them into
something quite a bit different. I think, so given that, I guess
like I'm just kind of trying to like talk myself and circles into a conclusion
on it. I think like given that the Siaka move makes that the potential
upside, then it's like an I think it's a good trade almost no matter
what. But like with that as the as the possible ceiling, like that's
very exciting for Indiana. Do you want to pivot? Do you have more
thoughts on the Pacers because the Toronto side of this, I think we should
discuss a little bit too. Right, for sure, they might be just
the more fascinating because the Pacers were the team for Siaka. It was it
almost feels like the Raptors were waiting to see if Ina would get more desperate
as the season went on, and it kind of went the other way where
they pivoted out of the sweep stakes. But the only question I would have
left for Indiana you already mentioned it would be what is their ceiling with this
duo and this exact roster? Now do you kind of pencil them in?
Is? And it's twofold because I have an additional add on to it is
do you just pencil them in a is? Like? Okay, well,
now the top six in the East, once Cleveland gets their guys back,
it's just kind of set. We know what it is now because of this
this trade too, though, what else do you think? Like? What
are they short? And is it you know? We have someone in the
chat asking if you want your comment posted, I'll be happy to post it.
You can throw in a super chat or something, but we will answer
questions if I see them pop up on my screen. We have a question,
how do you feel about jarss Walker eventually sliding to the three? I'll
be interested if this impacts you know, as of right now, the makeup
of this team was suggestible. He's gonna get even less minutes with the real
club this season. But what do you think this team is still missing?
Is it that because you already mentioned Nie Smith. So is it just well,
now it's do you need to replace Bruce Brown? Or is it we
have Buddy Heald and Benne mcmather and Andrew Nemhard. What is the like the
top like this top seven of dis rotation right now is just incredibly incredibly cantilizing.
And so where are you on on that stuff? That's a yeah,
I don't know. I guess my gut, my knee jerk reaction is because
you look at what the starting five is gonna be now, it's probably Buddy
Healed is gonna start. I mean he's started nineteen of the forty games he's
played so far. Matherin had a crack at it to start the year.
I'm not in love with either of those two because they they're very much one
way guys. So I guess, you know, other than like Nemhard,
I guess could guard some twos, but he's a one to two defender.
I think I would disagree. I feel like he can defend like some threes
in fours. Well do you think so? So what I was gonna say
is like it feels to me like it's a like a a wing you could
put on the on the floor to close the game, Like if you could
have an Aaron Smith clone, awesome, we'll take one of those. But
someone that's not like Buddy Heeld's gonna get hunted, Matherin's gonna get hunted.
I guess Nemhard would not. But do you want to play them hard in
closing lineups over or Matherin? Like so I get that's my first reaction.
Is someone like a little you know, just Nie Smith sized, I guess,
or even a little bigger that you could have like a two way threat.
But like we do this all the time, like every team needs one
more or four more of those guys, right like when we talk about Boston,
you know, Boston really needs another big wing that could you know,
like that kind of thing. But that's that's that's the one that jumps out
to me. The other thing I guess you could say is like like real
like a real like bulk type of center, like someone with some real heft,
just in case you need to figure out what to do against the you
know, you getting beat up on the board, able, I get,
sign them up. I should have thrown him in the trade, But I
mean, I don't know what else it would be other than that like,
I, you know, I like McConnell as a backup one. I like
Jalen Smith as like an eighth or ninth guy that might just hit four threes
in a game. For now, we're thinking, I'm thinking about them in
a playoff context now, which is what I think you to be doing with
the Pacers. So like, I'm just trying to imagine who's getting played off
the floor, and the first guys that come to mind are Healed and Matherin,
so like someone that would not be subject to that treatment in a playoff
series at that position. And what's interesting though, is what this trade does
is it goes from oh, they should really be in on like an og
aerobee level type wing to like if it was Dorian Finney Smith. Yeah,
like that makes all the world of difference. This is it segues a little
bit away from the Pacers. It's not yet into the Raptors. It's related
to kind of both of them. What what do you see as impact kind
of having on either or both the larger trade market now and also just the
Eastern conference landscape in general, to where there are two things that stand out
that I really want to ask you about to give you some more direction.
Is one could who's Philly putting on getting with all his cap space? Now
Siaka's found his new team, OG's found his new team. QUI extended,
I feel like Paul George is going to extend. They're not going to go
after James Harden. It feels like it makes it even more likely they they
complete a trade now, But it also makes it more likely other teams in
the East completely because you're just now you're just sort of fighting. We know
Boston Milwaukee one too, but now it's just like, oh, all these
hoops we need like the Knicks, Okay, we cemented ourselves as a top
six team, he eats by getting Oga. No, we know we need
to go out and make one more trade to separate ourselves even further from the
pack. So do you think one that this could have a trickle down effect
on teams like maybe even Miami being in that that level Cleveland while they try
and do something on the margins. But then two, who is he?
Like? What is the name? Now? Is it just de Jonte Murray
is the biggest prize available? Because it does seem what's what's the word?
Modes likes to use the Zach Lee market is barren. It's a desolate,
healscape of nothingness. Prefer something like that. No, that that's been my
kind of take all along on this deadline, And actually it relates to the
Sixers too. It's like Levigne now is the top guy. I mean,
it's pro We talked about Murray a little bit last week as like, you
know, if you're not in love with paying Levine, what it's gonna cost
Murray is a great you know fallback, I guess, different player, but
like and then you know, then we go into like, well, how
much worse really is Terry Rosier than Zach Levine if you're considering like dollar for
a production like so sick I'm just saying. I mean, like that's all
this is an illustration of like there just aren't those names. So I guess
if the question is what is Siakam going to Indiana do to other would be
you know buyers, I don't know that it changes that much because it doesn't
like put another name on the market that if you're Miami or if you're you
know, you name the team that needs it's like, oh now we gotta
now we got to make a move to like keep up or just or whatever,
like Siakam moving doesn't change the list of trade candidates, like until that
happens that I don't really know how much the other teams need to operate in
a reactionary you know what I mean, Like I just I want more names,
like I want more more legit candidates to be moved of consequence before I,
you know, start thinking about like, oh, what's this mean for
the Knicks or clear or what it is? Just those guys just aren't there,
you know. And I will say, I think what this might do
more than anything is increase the price paid for maybe some of the middle tier
guys where it's if Kelly Olinik or Jordan Clarson get traded out of Utah,
de Jontay Murray's of course the obvious one, or a bo Dot Bogdanovic in
Atlanta or a boy on Bogdanovich and in Detroit. I think it's you know,
we're not talking multiple first round picks for most of these guys other than
Murray, but I think you could see the price increase. There would be
just my guess on those guys, or does it increase likely that this surprise
name now becomes available because so much of the known trade market has just been
bankrupted, well not bankrupted, but it's already been completed with Og off the
board, Pascal off the board, Harden off the board, and the desolate
healthscape of nothingness that is the zach wilbean trade market being being what it is.
Yeah, I mean I will let's say, there's no way to know,
but like would you, I think the assumption should be there, someone
will get traded. That's a at least, you know, maybe not quite
as big a name as Siakam or Levine, but somewhere in that neighborhood that
hasn't really been discussed yet, just like because otherwise cal Bridge has come on
down. I mean there's one. Yeah, speaking of to blate this back
to the Pacers, they can after or TECHT I mean they could do it
now, but after this season, like you're still gonna have And just because
we didn't really answer this, No, I don't think Jarvis Walker he's PDPTE
mentions Jarison Ogi are literally identical weight and size. They play such different style
of basketball. I don't see Jaris being sustainable at the three unless he develops
he has the cutting and the movement he can make some passes on the move
too, But unless he develops like a very consistent jumper, I just don't
see them being able to get by with They'll have the spacing, but I
don't see them being able to get by with him as their de facto three.
His jumper is gonna be big. But for the Pacers, you've now
you can still trade two more first round picks, some swats and you have
better Mather and jars Walker. And so if you really wanted to go all
in, which is you know, we didn't really I guess discuss this is
that this very much show that they're in on this season and the Tyres Haliburton
window, and there's still other stuff they can do. And I really respect
that. I like the idea that this is not a flagship franchise or a
big market franchise, and that they went in they have this superstar in Tyres
Haliburt, and they decided, yeah, it's the beginning of his window,
but we're gonna fucking maximize it as soon as soon as we can. And
so I really I love seeing that. I wish more franchises acted in that
vein. And you know what they did too, is there wasn't some you
know, they did kind of this pass offseason effectively toe the line in between.
There was none of sort of this skirting or billowing in the wind.
We saw it a lot with the Pelicans, like basically the two different iterations
of the Pelicans before it took them to get to this point or some other
teams. I liked that they didn't one weight and two didn't decide to just
you know, dip into knee deep waters. That they really threw themselves neck
deep, forehead deep and said let's do this. I respect it and I
love that hell out of it personally. And I think it's logical too,
because I think the inclination a lot of times, and Memphis kind of comes
to mind as a team that we've we've criticized now but not taken their shot,
although like they were, you know, they were winning fifty games with
with their kind of young core. So like it's a little different than the
Pacers, but I think there's an inclination sometimes in smaller market with smaller market
teams to say, like put it this way, there's very much a world
where the Pacers get Tyre's Haliburton and they take a let's be deliberate, let's
hoard these picks, let's build around him. He's gonna be here for twelve
years, Like this is our guy. Let's be really careful and let's do
this gradually. And like I don't I think I think the right move is
like we have an all NBA guy today, now, who's great, Like
let's do let's go like there's nothing promised, you know, I get it,
he's you know, Haliburton signed to this, to the max deal,
Like yeah, so you have a half decade essentially, maybe less than that
in some cases, but like I just don't think. I don't think a
small market team, or really any team should assume that we've got our guy.
So let's like okay, let's really be you know, let's let's take
our time with this, cause like sometimes when you got the guy, you
just got to make a move to go get the other guy. Like and
that's that's an oversimplification. But like you, I don't think anybody would have
given the Pacers a hard time for not making this move for Siakham, because
there were plenty of justifications to not do it. But I think, like
to your point, just go for it, because logically, like you know
this idea of like, let's plan for five years down the road, Like
you can't really think more than two or three years ahead. In the NBA,
I don't think like no matter who you are, so especially if you're
a small market team that kind of lucked into a franchise cornerstone, because you
can't convince me that they knew Haliburton was going to be this good, because
if everybody knew that, it would have cost more than demonis sa bonus to
get him, like coming with Buddy Healed by the way, So like you
hit the lottery from requesting a trade to no, we wanted to keep him
as part of this deal, which makes sense, But you hit the lottery,
so double down, like let's let's go. That's a mixed metaphor,
but it's we're just agreeing that. Like the smart move in this case,
I think increasingly is to just just pre assume you're gonna be really good in
a shorter window and not just wait for you know, the perfect Siakama is
not a perfect fit. He's a good fit, I think, and maybe
the Pacers fit him better than any other legitimate suitor. But I applaud the
Pacers for going after the very good fit as opposed to waiting for something that's
just like, oh, we can never materially pass this up. Yeah,
it may never happen almost and it likely would not have happened like and and
you're the pace out bit if it if it was a better fit. I
mean, they were in apparently on og An Andobe, and I know Seekam
is a better player in a vacuum. But I don't know what their best
offer for ogi An Andobi exactly was. Uh, but they the Nicks beat
it, or they were able to give the Raptors more of what they wanted,
which might be a good segue onto the Raptors and how you think they
did in this trade. My only additional note on them, aside from what
they actually got, is they can now if they want, depending on what
happens with Bruce team option. They have Dowrian trend and you're being a free
agent, they could be like mid thirties of cap space this year with that
quickly with while holding Quickly's restricted free agency cap hold. What did you make
of the return on this for them? I think the three firsts like sound
good. But we already talked a little bit about how like for sure that
the worst of whatever Okac and the Clippers in Houston, whatever else like this
is, this pick is not going to be better than twenty fifth or whatever
the Pacers' own pick probably certainly not in the lottery. But I mean Haliburton's
out now that could still be in the teams, which isn't nothing if that's
the headliner though, A picks in a draft everybody hates, Like that's a
great point. I don't know enough myself. I see people just when I
see a lot of NBA guys say it. I'm not saying you're one of
them. I'm like, you guys are just I can't speak to it,
but it does seem that draft people hate this draft. It's been a long
time. I don't remember the last draft that that there was this kind of
consensus on of like, this is just not a good one. So I
get, yeah, of course I don't have the insight to say that,
like from my own perspective, but enough people who whose business it is to
know how good this draft is who said this is not a good draft.
So yeah, so that twenty six pick, I don't know if things go
how they're supposed to with this core in Indiana that's probably in the twenties too,
right, or that that would be the expectation. Certainly not a lot,
or it might mean some upside there is I think that is that the
best asset they got back at it, right, probably only because it's the
twenty four picks will not be good. So there's because there's a chance the
twenty six pick might be pretty good. I guess it qualifies as the best
of the three, but that's just because we're uncertain about it. I guess.
I don't want to say I'm super underwhelmed though, even just dumping on
all those picks, because this is something and Toronto risks getting nothing right,
like that was on the table for Siakam, Like Siakam can go away and
you get zero for him. So I guess, like, and this is
a little unfair, but it should be mentioned like the move, the move
to criticize, was not trading him sooner and like this is very much a
through line for our analysis of the Raptors. The real move to criticize was
trading for Yaka Pertle. Well, yeah, to circle back to that,
because that was insane, that's that's an awful trade. Well, none of
the picks that they're getting from this trade will be as valuable as the one
they gave up to get Yaka Pearl. That that I think we can say
pretty and have a better chance of keeping it this year. Now it's top
six protected, but it's gonna go to San Antonio. Oh yeah, you're
absolutely right, I guess. Like, I think this feels to me like
a worse return than they got for Anonobe and and and I think maybe that's
shouldn't be surprising because Anonobe was such a plug and play fits everywhere. Probably
isn't gonna cost as much as it almost definitely won't cost as much as Siakam
is going to to retain. I hesitate to call it like, oh,
they did poorly here. I think given the circumstances, it's a fine return
package. It's just disappointing that, like, again, what was the reason
for not doing this a year ago? You know where you would have gotten
much more? And that that's my issue is you said it under the circumstances,
I think they did well. And if you are, there are some
people who are just low on Pascal Siakam to where even if he would have
stayed of the Raptors on a three year match tim They didn't want to give
it to him, and I think, I think those people, with all
due respect, are out of their fucking minds. Pascal Siakam is a two
time All NBA player, probably won't make All NBA this season, but he's
been balling lately. He has not been in the steadiest, most consistent of
ecosystems basically ever. Yeah nice really like positionally or with the surrounding talent,
right and so, and I still think him and Scottie Bares could have worked
together under a different roster construct. You hit it on the head, though.
You let it get to this point to where Siakam was worth less than
his salary demands are gonna be higher. He's older and he's less plug and
play than an og Ananobi. You should have made this call last season,
and instead, not only did you not make this call, but you did
exacerbate the issue by dealing for Yaka pertle and treating yourself as just like this
still win now faction that wasn't ready to win now. And they do deserve
to be applauded for not letting it happen again, and despite they could have
easily looked at, Oh, we owe this top six protected pick this year,
we got a double triple down. We're gonna keep og in Pascal Scout
and we're gonna be the teams that are buying and we're gonna give up stuff
to get whoever. And they didn't, and so they deserve credit for that,
but it does put them in a little bit of flux because you got
players back in RJ. Emmanuel Quickly in Scotty Barnes. Maybe between those three
and Dennis Shuder, you just have enough creators on the roster. I'm very
fascinating to see where they go from here. This feels like a more than
a soft reset, but it's not a hard and fast rebuild, and so
I don't I'm very cursey like, how do they approach the rest of the
trade deadline? It's do they try and flip Brown for something else? Are
they going to prioritize cap space this summer? Are they going to pick up
Bruce Brown's team option and use him as that sort of human trade exception,
what goes on with Gary Trent Junior. I'm I'm super just interested to see
where they go from here, and I think nothing they've done clarifies their overarching
direction other than Okay, they knew that this era of basketball was over.
Scottie Barnes is the future and we knew that already. And yet it's well,
we're still kind of are they rebuilding or this this like a rule?
Are they recalibrating? What's what's going on here? And the way that it
took, not that it took so long because they did this before the deadline,
but just the way that negotiations unfolded publicly and that leak from Chams before
this deal went down, which I expected it almost not to go down,
because it was it clearly came from just like the Pacer side to apply pressure,
which if it came from the Pacer side or Pascal Pascal Siakam side,
good on them, Like, I don't have a problem with them doing that,
But it just wasn't It didn't follow the blueprint of what the Raptor's got
for og not in terms of raw value in a vacuum. We kind of
always Knewka might fetch less. I would have given up more for him personally,
That's how high I'm on him. But it just I don't know that
this d op few skates the Raptor's future anyway. If anything, it just
you kind of thought, oh, maybe they'll just Resignaka and like the pathway
forward is we'll see what we have an IQ and r JA and Scotti and
Siakam and maybe they move Pearle. So they moving Perle, I don't know
who wants that. I don't think it's the worst contract in the league by
any stretch, and he's still a useful player. I still think that needs
to be a goal. Though they're super thin up front at this point.
And that's the other thing too, is they just released a big and traded
a big and they're alway sudden light on these bigger forwards, and so I'm
very curious to see do they try and address that this season. Is this
all just experimentation now? And what if you know, you could say,
well, they'll just bought them out from here and then maybe they get to
keep their pick and then they'll move forward that there's just no Scotti, Barnes
and the manual quickly might just be too good for that to happen if you're
gonna play them throughout the rest of the season, I honestly, I don't
know. You have a better feel or what you would even do in there.
And that's that's what's rare before I throw it back to you, is
it's not even me asking you what you think they're doing. I'm I can't
even verbalize what I think they should do at this point because they're in such
a weird space. Yeah, I think I think they're just gonna be there
for at least, you know, another little while. And like I think
the reason that it's hard to get a grip on, Okay, what's Toronto
doing because when you view okay, they got like young players for Og and
then they took the pick haul and basically like a contract designed to be traded
for Siakam, those two things are very different, Like so, what what
do they want? Like what are their priorities? I think the reason so
and that is what is making it hard to figure out, like what the
direction is. I think the reason it looks that way is because like that's
just what was available, Like that's that was the best offer they got for
Og And if there had been a three good first or whatever for him,
they probably would have taken that. And like for Sakham, there wasn't you
know, the quickly out the quickly type or the and the Barrett contract out
there for him. It was just the Pacers are offering the picks, like
nobody else is beating that with whatever else there is, So like, that's
what we're gonna do. That's interesting, So I think to roll that forward.
This doesn't offer any clarity, but like I think they should treat Bruce
Brown similarly, which is to say, if there's a if if we think
we can't do better than what we'll get for him trading him now, I
think you trade him now. But if that's not the case, like and
I don't know what this market like, there's there's an argument to be made
that, like now, Bruce Brown is like a very valuable trade chip because
every team that wants Dorian Finney Smith that looks at Royce O'Neill, at whatever,
like Brown's not the same type of guy, but like he's similar.
You know, we love him so much because he kind of fits everywhere.
So now, if you're the Raptors, you you say, like, well,
what do we get for him now? And if we don't like that,
well we'll just pick up his option and he's an expiring contract next year.
He's like basically the same type of trade chip. So like, I
think they're just kinda and this again, and this makes it really easy to
criticize from a pick a direction standpoint. I think they can and probably should
just be like opportunistic, like just whatever the best package is if when whenever
it presents itself, move then Now granted they didn't do that, the Raptors
did not do that with Van Vleet and with like they probably should have moved
Gary Trent. If we're gonna really get all down into the weeds last year,
uh so, like I think they'll all they're gonna be hard to figure
out for a while because they're only options now are just kind of like,
well, let's wait around and see what the best play is for this asset
because we don't have We're not like I don't know, the Thunder two years
ago or the Jazz like you know, we're not like let's get all the
picks. They're not in that position. They're not in the let's so it's
gonna be confusing. I think there's there's not a solve for that yet,
just because I wonder if our new salary floor rules impacted this at all.
Where I think Traditionally, I would have looked at it and said, okay,
well you have Yaka purl twenty million a year, r J twenty seven
or whatever it is, IQ might be thirty, and then Scotty Barnes is
right around the corner with a Max. It's like, well, you already
have like four real contracts on your books by this time. Well, not
next season, because Gotti Barnes will be an extension, but because you have
to hit the floor anyway, and it's just the contracts or I guess so
short by that point it's well, you know, two or three years or
Yaka Purls is ticked off, so I can't even read that and say whatever.
I would be curious to see what they could get to I guess kind
of put a bow on the immediate discussion the Rappers what they could get for
Bruce Brown. A team like Philly has other expiring contracts and I think could
really use a Bruce Brown, Like are you looking. You're not getting a
first round pick for Bruce Brown unless you're taking back bad money. And then
it's okay, well, what team wants Bruce Brown and maybe has like bad
money that he would be interesting in Sacramento. But he's also smaller to where
it's well, if you have to give up Kevin Herder, Harrison Barnes,
is that doing enough there? I was just gonna ask, like, if
you could get you're not getting an unprotected first obviously for Bruce Brown, Like,
can you if you could get like a lottery protected first today? I
would bounce you trade him for that. As Raptors specifically, yeah, I
think any team, I mean, even if Indy might have been offered a
lot of reprotective first I might have jumped at it. Yeah, I just
I don't know. I think I probably would too. I don't know that
that offer is gonna be out there necessarily, but yeah, I just imagine
if it was, Like this is just a random thought because OKC is a
team that is smart enough to try and continue to roll salary slots forward,
and so because Brown has the team option, like if they did Davis Britton's
and just one of the first round picks that they had for Bruce Brown and
add that to their rotation, and it's they're just so crowded. I don't
know if that makes sense, but you do keep your optionality open, get
some extra playmaking and ball handling in advance of the playoffs. Maybe that's a
sneaky team to look at. I honestly, I don't see the He fits
in so many spots, But I don't know what the team is that I
would love him in Philly, Like I said, what's the team that's giving
you value for him? Or what is it that Toronto would want to move
him? Yeah, I don't know. He's a weird player because he does
have he has value as a as you know, basically money that goes away,
and he has value as a guy who like could be a starter on
a team that's trying to win. I don't know, so I guess I
guess maybe that just means he's got a really broad market and that could drive
up offers if you're being optimistic for Toronto. I don't know. Ye excited
to see the I q R J. Scotty dynamic from Huron though, when
everybody's healthy and playing that just and even now that like Yaka Pearl's out and
definitely like it makes me even more excited. And look, you look at
their current setup, it's just like, I don't really know what they're They're
primary big by the way we have to mention him because we're contractually obligated,
and why wouldn't we. Chris Bouche the only member of the title winning Toronto
Raptors left on this roster, right, I think, well, yeah,
who else would? Yeah, I'm trying. I'll look at their roster right
now. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure I'm correct there. So shout
out Chris Bouche for surviving, because that's what great basketball players do, is
they they survive. That's it. He's the only one from that from that
title team because Yaka Pearle was on the team that year but was traded.
So now you have to keep him because who else is going to impart the
lessons of the greatest season in Toronto Raptors history to the next generation. He's
he's like a he's like a sage figure. Now he has to stay and
he your Coloco's gone. You have Johntay Porter on a two way, So
I imagine they don't convert him just because they're limited in what they could offer
him. They could give him more this offseason. Someone's in class though,
just the time for the Christmas shave and glad glad Ron brand. But he's
just he's like their center pretty much. Yeah, any other anything else?
Did you want to take us out of here? Yeah? Sure, well
yeah we probably should. I was going to start talking about the Sixers and
like, but we hit it out. It's just like, what is this,
what's this cap space going to do for them? I went on this
rant. I think to you last time, I don't want to blame or
too much play. I don't want to hear about your cap space. And
it's not just now because all this has happened unless you have had massai u
Jerry's or lead basketball executively, like the odds of an All star just leaving
for nothing and free agency have been nil. And we've already mentioned that could
change in the future, it's just not changing this offseason. And what I
will say is you could still use that flexibility as part of trades, but
like, so you're punting on a year of Joelle Embiid's prime to just be
able to do that when you can probably at least thread the needle to where
if you got like an eighteen to twenty two million dollars player or whatever it
is, you could still get to one max slot or near max slot.
And so you need. I think they need to approach this trade deadline with
even more urgency than they were. And I'm not sure how urgent they were
approaching it to begin with, but this is the They're the team that's like
inadvertently impacted by this the most of these three. I mean, should we
pour one out for the Pelicans ducking the tax congratulations of ownership over there Averages
ducking at tax. You know how we much we love teams and owners ducking
the tags. The single most inevitable move of the pre deadline trade slate was
Kyra Lewis being traded to duck the tax. Like that was that if you
had to bet your life on a trade, that was the one you you
would bet it on all. The other thing that's interesting too, is like
Detroit is in the similar boat to where it's like Tobias Harris's agent's got to
be like licking his lips right now. It's like, oh, Detroit's got
cap space and they're not gonna get out of nob or Siakam. And if
you're Indy, in the back of your mind, I do wonder, like,
are you prepared to have to talk about a fifth year because you didn't
want to give Siakam the four year mass, but Detroit's just ready to do
it. Oh, I did you trade make this deal? If you're Indy
fully prepared to go the four year full boat, that is my impression.
I think you better have been like otherwise, Yeah, no, I think
you don't have You don't do this unless you've basically had the conversation with Siakam
and his eight already. Like there's just I can't imagine that the Pacers would
do this if if this wasn't done like the fifth year. I don't know,
but like four year, Max might as well sign it now, like
it I think I assume now I know. I started this off saying like,
well, we don't know, but like, the more you talk about
it's like you'd be you'd be a pretty irrational actor as Indiana to do this
without as close to a dead on assurance that you're gonna be able to keep
him. And if he does take less, it's by choice because you know,
Detroit is just ready to They don't they're ready to pay whoever. Detroit's
ready to get nuts like that, We're off. Uh, this podcast is
about to be off. Thank you everybody for watching for submitting questions comments for
listening. Uh. If you do not know how to keep up with us,
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Let them? But the people that are still here, the dozens of
people that are now watching, Yeah, thanks everybody. We close as always
with a shout out to the one and only Frank Milli keenan and an apology
made season debut and Frank, let's go h