WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:03.799 Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Today, myself and 2 00:00:03.879 --> 00:00:07.120 Paul Hoppy are kind of giving you a triple header. We're gonna be doing 3 00:00:07.120 --> 00:00:11.119 a listener feedback episode, by which I mean that we got a great question 4 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:15.080 about Guardians of the Galaxy, which we're mostly gonna be talking about, and 5 00:00:15.119 --> 00:00:19.039 the questions about Guardians of the Galaxy and animal rights, which is something's very 6 00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:21.719 dear to Paul Hoppy's heart, something that is very dear to my heart in 7 00:00:21.800 --> 00:00:25.199 large part because of my friendship with Paul. And so we're kind of doing 8 00:00:25.239 --> 00:00:27.679 both of those things. We're doing Guardians, We're doing animal rights, We're 9 00:00:27.679 --> 00:00:30.800 doing listener feedback. We will have another piece of listener feedback to talk about 10 00:00:30.800 --> 00:00:33.719 as well. All that more after commercial break, we have no controller. 11 00:00:43.840 --> 00:00:46.359 Welcome Macam Matthew. I'm your host. As I said, I'm joined by 12 00:00:46.880 --> 00:00:51.960 former host, former regular guests, now semiregular guest, Paul Hoppy. Paul, 13 00:00:51.960 --> 00:00:55.799 how we doing tonight? Doing pretty well? Yeah, it's you know, 14 00:00:55.840 --> 00:01:00.679 it's getting up in the nineties every day in Vegas now, so it's 15 00:01:00.679 --> 00:01:04.560 not my favorite time a year, but yeah, yeah, we're a bomby 16 00:01:04.680 --> 00:01:07.480 sixty here in Minnesota, so I'm not quite love on the weather here, 17 00:01:07.519 --> 00:01:11.760 but we'll have ninety for two weeks. Well you're right, yeah, yeah, 18 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:17.079 that sounds unbearable, exactly exactly. Well, this is not going to 19 00:01:17.120 --> 00:01:22.519 be kind of an interesting episode, and I think the best way to start 20 00:01:22.519 --> 00:01:26.120 it is we have a piece of listener feedback we got because I will admit 21 00:01:26.439 --> 00:01:30.519 I had not been planning to watch the new Guardians of the Galaxy movie. 22 00:01:30.599 --> 00:01:34.719 I They've never been my favorite part of the MCU. I really didn't like 23 00:01:34.719 --> 00:01:40.079 the second movie, and I'm a little bit on MCU burnout. And I 24 00:01:40.120 --> 00:01:42.760 don't mean that in any way to be critical of people who still love everything 25 00:01:42.879 --> 00:01:45.159 MCU too does. I still like a lot of things, but like, 26 00:01:45.200 --> 00:01:47.599 for example, I haven't seen the New Antman movie yet. I just didn't 27 00:01:47.599 --> 00:01:51.120 really feel a need to. I've also just been feeling like I enjoyed movies 28 00:01:51.159 --> 00:01:53.400 a lot more when I can sit at home and not going to the theaters. 29 00:01:53.079 --> 00:01:57.319 But then I was finding a discussion about the movie online really interesting, 30 00:01:57.640 --> 00:02:00.439 and then we got this listener email from Sophia and Sophia rights. Hi, 31 00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:06.760 Matthew, I love I love your Superhero Ethics podcast, and I'm writing to 32 00:02:06.799 --> 00:02:08.560 ask you if you planned to do an episode talking about Guardians of the Galaxy 33 00:02:08.639 --> 00:02:15.840 Volume three. I love hearing you and Paul Happy talk about the I think 34 00:02:15.879 --> 00:02:17.680 hearing you and Paul Hoppy talk about this movie would be a great discussion, 35 00:02:17.800 --> 00:02:22.199 especially because Paul is such a big proponent of animal rights and this movie has 36 00:02:22.199 --> 00:02:24.759 a lot of animal cruelty in it. I know you don't often cover movies 37 00:02:24.840 --> 00:02:28.400 right when they're released in theaters, but I hope that sometime in the future 38 00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:30.479 you'll consider an episode on it. Have a great day, Sophia lim Shide, 39 00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:35.120 which, by the way, also awesome, including your pronouns as someone 40 00:02:35.159 --> 00:02:38.439 who uses pronouns that were not what people would expect to me they them. 41 00:02:38.520 --> 00:02:42.159 I always really appreciate when people just kind of normalize, like, let's everyone 42 00:02:42.400 --> 00:02:45.159 just use pronouns, you know, tells what your pronouns are. So putting 43 00:02:45.159 --> 00:02:50.960 that aside, though, so I decided to go watch the movie and big 44 00:02:50.960 --> 00:02:53.280 spoilers for that. Well, we're not going to spoil too much of the 45 00:02:53.479 --> 00:02:59.800 significant plot details, but I think we're gonna spoil some of the general themes 46 00:02:59.840 --> 00:03:02.639 and which are that the movie includes. As Ifia said, quite a lot 47 00:03:02.639 --> 00:03:07.360 of animal cruelty, but it is not presented from an exploitative standpoint. It's 48 00:03:07.400 --> 00:03:12.560 really presented from a standpoint of, hey, people watching this like the way 49 00:03:12.680 --> 00:03:15.159 humans treat animals in our own world, that alone in this world is wrong 50 00:03:15.240 --> 00:03:19.599 and bad. And I think that's where it really we're going to talk about 51 00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:23.159 it from. But we're going to do something interesting because we're gonna be talking 52 00:03:23.199 --> 00:03:28.639 about this movie and mostly talking about the issues that it raises. And one 53 00:03:28.639 --> 00:03:30.800 of the two of us, Paul, hasn't seen the movie yet, and 54 00:03:31.120 --> 00:03:36.759 I think that that alone is a really interesting question that helps to get into 55 00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:38.800 why we're talking about this today and the kind of discussion we're going to have. 56 00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:42.599 And so Paul, let me kind of just start by asking you this, 57 00:03:42.719 --> 00:03:45.840 Like you're someone who is on record, as you know, talking a 58 00:03:45.879 --> 00:03:50.120 lot about you get really upset sometimes when animals are treated poorly in the fiction 59 00:03:50.159 --> 00:03:53.280 that we watch, and you really want them to be treated better. Here's 60 00:03:53.280 --> 00:03:58.840 a movie that is about animals being treated poorly. But that's kind of the 61 00:03:58.879 --> 00:04:01.360 whole point, because it's about drawing attention to something that you and I think 62 00:04:01.400 --> 00:04:04.479 a lot of other folks myself included, really care about. In terms of 63 00:04:04.520 --> 00:04:09.960 the the entitlement that humans have towards animals and animal lives and animal suffering and 64 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:13.280 all the light. So why haven't you seen this movie? Yeah? So 65 00:04:13.319 --> 00:04:15.120 I think the fact that you know you're not going to go you don't go 66 00:04:15.199 --> 00:04:17.199 to theaters in general, but like, sure, sure, so I planning 67 00:04:17.199 --> 00:04:19.399 to not see this movie even when it comes out on digital. Yeah, 68 00:04:19.480 --> 00:04:24.720 so like you, I've got my share of MCU burnout where I'm just like 69 00:04:24.759 --> 00:04:28.240 I'm I'm just gonna put it down for a moment. Maybe I'll watch like 70 00:04:28.319 --> 00:04:31.240 all the movies in a row in a year or something like it took me 71 00:04:31.319 --> 00:04:34.040 forever to watch Wakonda forever, and I finally watched and I was like, 72 00:04:34.040 --> 00:04:38.680 Okay, that's supposedly the end of a phase or something, so maybe that's 73 00:04:38.680 --> 00:04:40.639 a good point to kind of just be like, I'll take a break. 74 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:45.240 But also, you know, I haven't been I haven't seen a movie in 75 00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:47.800 the theater since Birds of Prey, so yeah, you know, it's been 76 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:51.160 a minute. And I thought about, like, would I go to see 77 00:04:51.199 --> 00:04:57.959 this movie specifically so that I could talk about it, And then you brought 78 00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:00.839 up the idea of like you could watch it and then we could talk about 79 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:03.639 kind of some things that happened and how it handles things, and I think 80 00:05:03.639 --> 00:05:08.279 that can often, Like I think sometimes that leads to a really good discussion, 81 00:05:08.360 --> 00:05:10.959 right, Like we've done that with some Star Wars novels where I'm just 82 00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:14.920 the kind of like illiterate, like I didn't read the book, like you 83 00:05:14.959 --> 00:05:17.720 all tell me about the book and I'll ask some questions and I can't actually 84 00:05:17.720 --> 00:05:25.079 read them. But so here though, there's there's like a there's another level 85 00:05:25.399 --> 00:05:28.199 of aside from you know, not really wanted to go see a movie in 86 00:05:28.199 --> 00:05:31.120 a theater, aside from not being super amped to see another MCU movie right 87 00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:36.879 now. Also, you know, if there's a lot of depictions of animal 88 00:05:36.879 --> 00:05:43.120 cruelty in it, Like, given my understanding about the way the movie handles 89 00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:46.439 that, I think it's great that it exists, and I think hopefully it 90 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:51.000 will have an effect on people. But I'm like, I don't feel like 91 00:05:51.160 --> 00:05:56.199 i'm that audience of you know, I don't think I'm the person who needs 92 00:05:56.279 --> 00:06:00.839 something to have that effect on me, and it to me, it would 93 00:06:00.920 --> 00:06:05.319 likely just be an unpleasant experience for most of it. And you know, 94 00:06:05.360 --> 00:06:09.800 I mean, it's it's sort of like seeing images of violence in our in 95 00:06:09.959 --> 00:06:15.680 our own world right where it's important to know that these things happen, and 96 00:06:15.839 --> 00:06:23.360 sometimes seeing something for the first time can have a profound effect. And however, 97 00:06:23.399 --> 00:06:26.680 I think at a certain point it's like, all right, that's enough. 98 00:06:27.079 --> 00:06:30.240 I understand that this exists. I feel it on a visceral level, 99 00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:34.680 and I don't need a constant visual reminder of it, you know, to 100 00:06:34.759 --> 00:06:38.800 keep in my mind that like, yeah, that's a thing and it's awful 101 00:06:38.920 --> 00:06:43.920 and I want to do something about it. Yeah, I think I remember 102 00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:45.879 it first being a little surprised, but the more I thought about it, 103 00:06:45.879 --> 00:06:46.759 that makes to all sense to me, because I know, like, in 104 00:06:46.759 --> 00:06:53.600 a similar way, when I met my partner Mary, you know, she 105 00:06:53.800 --> 00:06:56.040 like I is queer, and we were talking a lot about queer themes and 106 00:06:56.040 --> 00:06:58.839 stuff, and she was saying like, yeah, she didn't want to see 107 00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:03.879 any fiction where characters died ebates, you know, or died of gay bashing, 108 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:08.560 you know. And the point being like that that she'd been exposed to 109 00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:12.519 lots and lots of that and had really, you know, been immersed in 110 00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:15.360 that world and was a part of the world herself, and as a person 111 00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:19.240 an activist and a person to believe in all these things. And I was 112 00:07:19.240 --> 00:07:23.360 like, I don't. Maybe it's great if other people are seeing this and 113 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:25.360 but but I don't need to. I don't need to see it again. 114 00:07:25.399 --> 00:07:28.240 Who reminded of why this is terrible? Yeah? And I know I've heard 115 00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:30.720 similar things from like you know, black creator black creators on here who say 116 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:32.879 things like, look like I don't I don't need to watch another video of 117 00:07:32.920 --> 00:07:35.680 someone like me being shot by the police or something like that. Um, 118 00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:40.839 and and I'll say I feel the same way, like I don't need to 119 00:07:40.839 --> 00:07:45.360 see another shot of someone being shot by the police. Like, yeah, 120 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:49.600 because it's horrible, let's do something about it. Yeah, Like I think 121 00:07:49.600 --> 00:07:54.040 that's the thing is because I think like, and here's a thing of like 122 00:07:54.040 --> 00:07:56.800 I don't want to judge this for anybody else or say like this group should 123 00:07:56.800 --> 00:08:00.480 always do it, this group should never do it whatever, But like to 124 00:08:00.600 --> 00:08:03.680 me, I mean, watching this movie, I definitely had a visceral reaction 125 00:08:03.839 --> 00:08:11.879 of like being reminded of just how horrible our world is to animals and everything 126 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:13.839 from like the you know, you know, the meat industry and then the 127 00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:18.040 the you know, the way animals treated there but especially like what this movie 128 00:08:18.079 --> 00:08:22.439 really kind of about animal at experimentation and things like that. Um, and 129 00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:28.199 in horrible timing, for example, that Britain just changed their regulations to start 130 00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:33.399 allowing businesses to do experiments on animals again um, which I guess none of 131 00:08:33.399 --> 00:08:39.039 them had seen the movie. Um, but like and and yeah to me, 132 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:41.080 like I was still at a point where like, yeah, the movie 133 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:43.320 it was hard to watch at times. I think, not as hard as 134 00:08:43.320 --> 00:08:46.320 it might have been for others because I have seen a lot worse with animals 135 00:08:46.360 --> 00:08:50.000 in my own research of these things. But yeah, but I but I 136 00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:52.519 had that viscal reaction like Okay, this is a reminder to me that I 137 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:56.159 need to be even doing more on this subject. And I think that there's 138 00:08:56.159 --> 00:08:58.480 something to be said for like here, here's what I would say, and 139 00:08:58.519 --> 00:09:03.480 I'm wanting you would feel the same way to me. That means I don't 140 00:09:03.519 --> 00:09:05.159 think the movie went too far, Like I think it is a good thing 141 00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:09.320 that the movie is doing that in the same way that like, you know, 142 00:09:09.440 --> 00:09:13.519 like I don't want to stop having movies about you know, people dying 143 00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:16.320 of aids, especially gay man in the eighties and nineties, because it happened 144 00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:20.320 all the time, and it's important for people to see that and to know 145 00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:24.960 that and to not hide from that. It's like it's important to see you 146 00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:28.279 know, racism existing and sexily existing and stuff like that. But kind of 147 00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:33.039 what what is your feeling of it? Of Like, if you hear that 148 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:37.519 there's a movie that is about animal rights and it's about sort of pushing people 149 00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:41.519 to do animal more animal compassion and it involves a lot of scenes of animal 150 00:09:41.519 --> 00:09:45.399 cruelty, does that strike to you It's like, Okay, that's even if 151 00:09:45.399 --> 00:09:46.399 it's not what you want to see, that's probably a good thing to help 152 00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:50.039 move people. Is it something like you'd rather not have that in the movie? 153 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:54.360 What what's kind of feeling there? Yeah? I mean if so. 154 00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:58.120 First of all, there's a whole thing about like movies that are centered around 155 00:09:58.120 --> 00:10:01.559 trying to make a point that I think just fundamentally challenging and like how to 156 00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:07.039 go about making a movie. And I tend to not very often enjoy those 157 00:10:07.080 --> 00:10:11.639 movies that have some point that's like front and center. You know. I 158 00:10:11.080 --> 00:10:16.679 like there to be themes and I really want movies to make people think about 159 00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:20.480 things right, and then kind of people can can end up where they end 160 00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:22.960 up. But again, I haven't seen this movie, so I won't I 161 00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:26.399 won't speak to how it handles that, but in terms of let me say 162 00:10:26.440 --> 00:10:28.879 something something about that, and I think that's something I should be very clear 163 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:33.919 for this movie for the audience. Due to that, I think what we're 164 00:10:33.960 --> 00:10:37.399 gonna try and do here is use Guardians as a jumping off point to talk 165 00:10:37.399 --> 00:10:41.080 about these topics in general. Yeah, because I think, yeah, my 166 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:43.399 saying to you, well, here's my interpretation of what happens. So do 167 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:46.840 you think this movie did a good job like that? That's stilly, right, 168 00:10:46.879 --> 00:10:50.120 like, because it's all gonna be through my own experience and my own 169 00:10:50.200 --> 00:10:54.519 view of it. So but yeah, so this is not like like in 170 00:10:54.519 --> 00:10:56.440 a question like this, I'm not saying, like, so do you think 171 00:10:56.519 --> 00:11:00.159 James gunn use cruelty to animals? Right? Well or not? Well, 172 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:01.440 because you don't know, you haven't seen it exactly, but just okay, 173 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:05.039 so this movie did that. Let's get to the general question then. Yeah, 174 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:09.679 So, like I think war movies should have blood in them, right, 175 00:11:09.799 --> 00:11:13.399 Yeah, Like, I think, especially anti war movies. I mean, 176 00:11:13.399 --> 00:11:16.399 I guess pro warr movies you probably don't want to show the blood you 177 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:20.080 know, you just want to see the enemies getting blown up and then you're 178 00:11:20.120 --> 00:11:24.120 like yay, but you know, I mean, having recently watched the top 179 00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:26.480 gun movies, I'm like, oh, there's there's no blood there, you 180 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:33.039 know. But as opposed to say Private Ryan, or I tried to watch 181 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:35.320 All Quiet on the Western Front and I started it and I was just like, 182 00:11:35.679 --> 00:11:39.639 not today, you know. I was like, I'm sure this might 183 00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:41.600 be a great movie, and it's in German and I love that and I'd 184 00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:46.399 really enjoy watching it some day, but like that wasn't the day, you 185 00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:50.559 know, And I remember there's a tangent, but theok back to it, 186 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:56.399 ignoring the last five minutes. To me, one of the things that made 187 00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:03.799 of Steving Private Ryan such a good movie was that until that point movies that 188 00:12:03.000 --> 00:12:07.320 the only war movies that were really very bloody and gory were Vietnam movies, 189 00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:11.399 right, And there's just kind of this idea of like, Vietnam is a 190 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:16.120 morally questionable war, so war looks ugly and terrible. World War two was 191 00:12:16.159 --> 00:12:20.440 the noble good war, so the warfare looks like noble and good, and 192 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:24.440 when the people die, they you know, say a quirky line to their 193 00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:28.679 buddy as they you know, die, or they just sit and smoke a 194 00:12:28.679 --> 00:12:31.000 cigarette that a pretty nurse gives them in the hospital or whatever it is and 195 00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:33.080 sort of see like, yeah, this is World War two, We're fighting 196 00:12:33.080 --> 00:12:39.080 the literal Nazis and it's still bloody and horrible and terrible. It was kind 197 00:12:39.080 --> 00:12:43.000 of groundbreaking in a way anyway, that very much in a tangent, But 198 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:45.279 you want to underline that, Yeah, yeah, I mean, like all 199 00:12:45.320 --> 00:12:48.240 war as hell, and just because you're fighting the bad guys doesn't make you 200 00:12:48.279 --> 00:12:52.120 always on equivocally the good guys, right, like impossible, like like you 201 00:12:52.159 --> 00:12:56.320 can't do horrible things as well, which I think World War Two actually demonstrates 202 00:12:56.399 --> 00:13:00.919 quite well. But yeah, so I think I think if you try to 203 00:13:00.960 --> 00:13:05.159 make a movie like this and you kind of just like talked about the horrible 204 00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:11.399 things like that would make it maybe easier for me to watch, right, 205 00:13:11.480 --> 00:13:13.399 And I think there's a place for that, But I think there's also a 206 00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:16.519 place for being very explicit, you know what I mean. I think this 207 00:13:16.600 --> 00:13:22.639 is something that comes up also with like movies that cover like sexual assault, 208 00:13:22.879 --> 00:13:28.360 right where I think a lot of people feel like a lot of times those 209 00:13:28.360 --> 00:13:31.600 sorts of scenes are very exploitative, and also just a lot of people are 210 00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:33.679 like, I don't I don't want to watch that, right, Yeah, 211 00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:37.279 And I think that's fair. But I also think that there's a place for 212 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:41.279 showing the horrors of anything that you're trying to show the horrors of, you 213 00:13:41.320 --> 00:13:48.919 know. And in terms of the horrors of animal cruelty in blockbuster movies, 214 00:13:50.279 --> 00:13:54.120 like it hasn't really been done a whole lot. You know, often there's 215 00:13:54.200 --> 00:13:58.879 an amount of animal cruelty that just goes like laughed at even, right, 216 00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:03.799 And and so I think that that's you know, it's it's pretty bold to 217 00:14:03.799 --> 00:14:07.559 say, like, yeah, this is you know, this is an MCU 218 00:14:07.600 --> 00:14:09.279 film. This is a Disney film, you know, I mean in terms 219 00:14:09.320 --> 00:14:13.679 of the parent company, like and I mean Disney has always had these like 220 00:14:13.720 --> 00:14:16.799 anthropomorphic animals that are like their main characters, you know, so it actually 221 00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:20.759 kind of feels like maybe that's the right company to like be like, no, 222 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:26.000 we're going to do something that's for mass audiences, right, and we're 223 00:14:26.039 --> 00:14:30.039 going to show the reality of and of course it's not actually the reality because 224 00:14:30.080 --> 00:14:33.919 it's it's in space and you know, talking raccoons and all this right, 225 00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:39.039 but but showing I mean, I know I read a few articles about it, 226 00:14:39.039 --> 00:14:41.879 and I know, like Peter gave James Gunn like an award for like, 227 00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:46.720 you know, making a movie like this and and having getting details right, 228 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:50.399 like you know, the the animals having numbers tattooed on them and being 229 00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:54.759 referred to by numbers right, not by names, and um, that literally 230 00:14:54.799 --> 00:14:58.519 happens in a lot of places where animals are experimenting on or or feed animals 231 00:14:58.519 --> 00:15:03.960 and things like yeah, exactly, And so I do think there's value to 232 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:05.799 like hitting people with the full force of it. You know, I think 233 00:15:05.799 --> 00:15:09.200 there's value there. I think it's a sort of thing where it's like I 234 00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:16.559 don't want everything about animal rights or that's against animal cruelty to vividly show that, 235 00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:22.000 because I think there's also value in having things that some other people might 236 00:15:22.039 --> 00:15:24.720 want to watch and be like, oh that's too much. I don't want 237 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:28.360 to watch that one. But like then maybe there's another entry point for them. 238 00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:30.799 Yeah, you know what I mean, And I do think And again 239 00:15:30.840 --> 00:15:33.360 here I'm going to talk about Guardians not to ask you to evaluate it, 240 00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:37.559 but to give some context and lead into a large conversation like what you're saying 241 00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:41.679 about the movies that make a point. I tend to be a little bit 242 00:15:41.720 --> 00:15:43.480 fonder of those than a lot of other people. But even I would agree 243 00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:48.600 like it feels too much like you're making the point instead of making a movie. 244 00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:54.799 It's a problem in this It feels very earned because it is primarily what 245 00:15:54.799 --> 00:15:58.960 we're seeing is rockets backstory, right, and Rockets a character who we've now 246 00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:04.039 had for three Guardians movies as well as significant parts of other movies, particularly 247 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:11.080 Avengers movies, and we've always gotten some hints that he had terrible things happen 248 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:14.480 to him in the past and that that is part of why he is who 249 00:16:14.519 --> 00:16:18.639 he is, and so getting now to have that really explored and then they 250 00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:25.320 won't spoil it, but they do some like character things where basically like they 251 00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:27.600 have to learn more about his history in order to help him in the present. 252 00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:32.840 It wouldn't make it feel very earned and very relatively real to the story. 253 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:37.799 Yeah, and I think that's super important. Whenever you're trying to make 254 00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:44.000 a point, it's like, is this point kind of something that you wanted 255 00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:47.320 to make, and then you came up with a story to try and make 256 00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:49.399 that point, and then often I think you're going to get something that feels 257 00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:56.799 very artificial or did you have a story to tell and there's a point in 258 00:16:56.840 --> 00:17:00.039 the story, Like there's a point to the story, right, and so 259 00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:06.519 it's organic storytelling that involves making a larger point. I think that's always gonna 260 00:17:07.400 --> 00:17:08.440 it's first of all, it's just going to be a better story. And 261 00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:11.000 I think when you have a better story, it's going to hit better, 262 00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:15.960 like your point is going to land better, Like when it's not like you're 263 00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:18.880 just like writing an essay, right, yeah, and then like having some 264 00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:22.079 characters read the essay, it's like, no, this is a story and 265 00:17:22.519 --> 00:17:26.799 it shows you right as opposed to just tells you about something. And I 266 00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:33.519 think it's important knowledge that that question there is one that is incredibly subjective. 267 00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:40.079 And then I think depending on I think a lot of factors will decide how 268 00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:45.160 much you, an individual person, thinks that the story has earned the points 269 00:17:45.160 --> 00:17:47.920 that it's making. And I think a lot of that has to do with 270 00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:49.559 storytelling itself. I also do think a lot of that has to do with 271 00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:53.480 how comfortable you are with the point that's being made. And yeah, I 272 00:17:53.559 --> 00:18:00.039 certainly think that it is one of the easiest ways to dismiss a movie it 273 00:18:00.200 --> 00:18:02.079 has something like that, it's like, oh, it's just pandering, like 274 00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:04.960 they're just writing female characters or black characters whatever, pander instead of like, 275 00:18:06.119 --> 00:18:10.160 yeah, and I obviously have a bias in that particular question and leaning pretty 276 00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:12.680 hard to one side, but but I think I'm not trying to say I 277 00:18:12.680 --> 00:18:15.240 don't I can't draw where the objective line is. But I think that it's 278 00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:18.119 important to say, like, that is a really important question to ask, 279 00:18:19.119 --> 00:18:22.160 as well as to say that, like, like a lot of questions, 280 00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:25.680 it can is also a lot of disingenuousness that can sometimes go into that question 281 00:18:25.720 --> 00:18:29.960 being brought up. Yeah, for sure, but like it's I think it's 282 00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:33.240 a legitimate question, and yeah, like a lot of nuance, it gets 283 00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:38.160 weaponized these days, right, Like, but yeah, there's there's definitely movies 284 00:18:38.200 --> 00:18:41.720 that make points that I totally agree with, and I'm like, I think 285 00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:47.720 you're doing disservice to this point, you know, or just are hard to 286 00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:51.240 watch as a tangent, but I think it's helpful. I'd love to hear 287 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:53.279 from you, what is an example of one where you think the point was 288 00:18:53.319 --> 00:18:56.680 really well integrated into the story and one where you were like, I agree 289 00:18:56.720 --> 00:19:00.119 with you, but can you just tell me a story instead of beating over 290 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:03.160 the head of this right, Well, so like the first Avatar movie, 291 00:19:03.559 --> 00:19:07.359 not the Airbender, but like the Avatar movie, Like, you know, 292 00:19:07.880 --> 00:19:11.400 I mean, yes, it's a savior story also, but it's also anti 293 00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:18.400 colonialist, right, it's anti exploiting a planet for its resources and not caring 294 00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:22.400 what you're doing to the population there. And like I agree with that point, 295 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:26.720 Like, yeah, don't do that, but like, yeah I did. 296 00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:30.880 It felt heavy handed and I just didn't really enjoy the story very much, 297 00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:34.559 you know, I mean, it looked pretty, but in terms of 298 00:19:34.599 --> 00:19:40.920 one that really does a good job of making those points, I mean, 299 00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:45.240 I'm gonna I have two examples, neither of which are I think primarily trying 300 00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:48.880 to make those points. One of them is going to be and Or where 301 00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:52.839 I don't think Andor is like this is the point I want to make. 302 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:56.480 I don't think. Tony Gilroy was like I want to make these points. 303 00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:00.720 I think Tony Gilroy is a person who's read a lot of stuff and thought 304 00:20:00.759 --> 00:20:07.480 about a lot of things and had a story to tell and is telling that 305 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:11.839 story and integrating a lot of those points into that story, right, And 306 00:20:14.039 --> 00:20:18.880 so I think those things also, like the story is literally about like fighting 307 00:20:18.920 --> 00:20:25.000 against authoritarianism, so when you're you know, and and this this colonial power, 308 00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:29.519 right the empire, and so it's like it's not too on the nose 309 00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:32.720 to call it what it is, right, It's like you can literally just 310 00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:37.039 show it because that is actually what the story was always about, right from 311 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:45.000 the first Stars Star Wars movie and then another movie that I actually I'm going 312 00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:47.640 to see whether I can get you to finally try watching this one again. 313 00:20:48.319 --> 00:20:52.839 But I would say gross point blank, Like gross point blank is about a 314 00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:59.119 hit man who goes to his ten year high school reunion, and like sure, 315 00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:02.319 you know, yeah, but and it's a comedy, you know, 316 00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:08.559 but it's got a lot of like you know, leftist like anti authoritarian, 317 00:21:08.599 --> 00:21:14.599 anti war type messaging in it that's just kind of like worked in there. 318 00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:18.319 I feel like, not super heavy handed, partially because it's a comedy, 319 00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:23.079 you know, but um, I think a lot of times, I mean, 320 00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:26.480 you can have something like and Or where it's like it is about fighting 321 00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:30.319 against an empire quite literally. But I think also sometimes you can just have 322 00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:36.039 characters who have certain viewpoints and they can express those viewpoints in ways that at 323 00:21:36.119 --> 00:21:41.559 least are going to make the audience think and and when you do, I 324 00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:48.079 think that's that's sometimes I think that's potentially more effective because it's just like you're 325 00:21:48.119 --> 00:21:53.279 you're telling a compelling story and then you're weaving some some things into it, 326 00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:56.759 you know, And I guess if you want to go with the MCU, 327 00:21:56.880 --> 00:21:59.880 like, I feel like The Winter Soldier does a pretty decent job of that. 328 00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:03.160 Yeah, you know, thank it's fair. Yeah, Like I say, 329 00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:08.599 I think MCU has been for the most part pretty good about about about 330 00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:11.960 these things. Not always by any means, but to me, the one 331 00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:17.240 of the ones that I would go to most often is Miss Marvel because I'm 332 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:18.960 sorry, well, Miss Marvel, I definitely would Captain Marvel, that's what 333 00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:22.480 you're gonna say, No, no, yeah, I got I do mean 334 00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:26.039 Miss Marvel, although Captain Marvel I think also does it. But because to 335 00:22:26.119 --> 00:22:29.440 me, in Miss Marvel, like it's it's about a teenage girl who was 336 00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:33.559 also a Pakistani American who was also a Muslim, and I don't think you 337 00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:37.200 could tell her story without Islamophobia coming in in some way. I don't think 338 00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:45.559 you can tell her story without the particular issues of immigration and her family and 339 00:22:45.559 --> 00:22:49.359 and yeah, and that partition plays a role in her family's story. I 340 00:22:49.480 --> 00:22:55.319 felt like I learned a lot more about those worlds by watching that show. 341 00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:57.839 I felt like I had a lot more empathy and a lot more like, 342 00:22:57.880 --> 00:23:02.359 oh, okay, I can see this gives me a better understanding of a 343 00:23:02.359 --> 00:23:04.319 lot of other you know, Pakistani American artists or things like that. But 344 00:23:04.359 --> 00:23:07.119 I never felt like the show was hitting me over the head with it. 345 00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:08.680 Because if you felt like, it's the story of this teenage girl who gets 346 00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:11.839 these powers, and here's the cool things that happened, yeah, I'll co 347 00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:15.480 sign that. I felt like the marketing was like a little on the nose, 348 00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:21.880 and then like the actual show itself was just good. Aside from the 349 00:23:21.880 --> 00:23:26.640 antagonists I thought were by far the work is fun, but Team Protagonist was 350 00:23:26.680 --> 00:23:30.440 fantastic. Yeah. Well, so, pointing it back to Guardians, Yeah, 351 00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:33.039 one of the things that I thought was interesting was as the movie went 352 00:23:33.079 --> 00:23:37.759 on, I kept up there were a couple times where I had this moment 353 00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:41.559 of Okay, well, actually, I'm going to back up here a second 354 00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:45.440 and use the example that you just talked about before the first movie avatar. 355 00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:49.640 I agree with you. I thought I appreciated that the movie was trying to 356 00:23:49.640 --> 00:23:55.920 tell a kind of anti colonial, anti imperialist story, but by doing it 357 00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:59.359 through what felt to me this white savior narrative. Also by the way of 358 00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:02.960 very able this narrative, but it's a whole other story, it really kind 359 00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:07.160 of undercut that message. There were a lot of things in this Guardians movie 360 00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:10.599 that I would watch and I would feel like, God, damn it, 361 00:24:10.680 --> 00:24:14.079 Paul. If I hadn't talked with Paul so much, I would just be 362 00:24:14.119 --> 00:24:17.960 like, Wow, this is awesome animal right stuff. But the conversations you 363 00:24:17.960 --> 00:24:21.599 and I have had have started to get me to see these other things that 364 00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:26.519 undercut the message some and then the movie would directly address that thing and change 365 00:24:26.519 --> 00:24:27.720 it. And so I want to kind of go through a couple of these 366 00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:32.440 and just use them to talk about like if I'm kind of right and said, 367 00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:33.799 how you would think about a trope like this, and and and get 368 00:24:33.799 --> 00:24:37.039 into those general thoughts about that not am I right thing, but just sure 369 00:24:37.079 --> 00:24:41.799 for that conversation, Like I'll give you the first example. We start with 370 00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:48.240 basically Rocket as a as a young raccoon with kind of a much younger voice 371 00:24:49.079 --> 00:24:53.519 is with a couple of other animals who have all been through something similar that 372 00:24:53.559 --> 00:25:00.039 they are now. I don't know if sentient is the right word, but 373 00:25:00.519 --> 00:25:03.000 the word it's like verbal, right, yeah, I mean the now English, 374 00:25:03.640 --> 00:25:07.079 they're now verbal, and the invocation of the movie is certainly that they 375 00:25:07.119 --> 00:25:12.240 are now capable of a level of intellectual understanding that they weren't before. Yes, 376 00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:19.000 sapience is the word. That's actually more although that's they have a more 377 00:25:19.240 --> 00:25:22.720 human like level of intelligence is pretty much. I think that's good way to 378 00:25:22.759 --> 00:25:25.960 look for it. And that's exactly kind of the point is, and so 379 00:25:26.599 --> 00:25:30.039 and a lot of things that were done to them which were like there's a 380 00:25:30.039 --> 00:25:33.680 lot of body horror elements that are in it, which again where I felt 381 00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:36.200 really good because they don't some of them are hard to look at. They 382 00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:38.960 don't look cute. It looks like a very cute animal. The horrible things 383 00:25:38.960 --> 00:25:41.640 have been done too, right, So on the one hand, they're not 384 00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:47.720 just saying, hey, look, the cute animal deserves sympathy, but they 385 00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:52.480 were showing that the you know, the scent, the sapient animals deserve the 386 00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:59.400 deserve sympathy. And then later they specifically make a point of like some people 387 00:25:59.480 --> 00:26:03.599 only want to rescue those animals, and Rocket I was like, no, 388 00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:04.920 no, no, no, all these animals that haven't been experimented on yet, 389 00:26:04.920 --> 00:26:08.160 like we need to rescue them as well. Yeah, and as well 390 00:26:08.200 --> 00:26:14.359 as also introducing a couple of other animal characters who are not who have not 391 00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:18.759 been experimented on like that, they're not verbal, they're not they're not interacting 392 00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:22.880 with people on that kind of a level, but they still become full characters 393 00:26:22.920 --> 00:26:26.559 in the show, in the movie who I think are just deserving of sympathy 394 00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:30.480 and empathy. Yeah, And to me, that's that's critical, right, 395 00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:38.119 because if you only take the animals that have you know, enhanced intelligence or 396 00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:44.319 whatever, like you know, for all the animal rights and whatever that I'm 397 00:26:44.359 --> 00:26:47.599 going to talk about, Like humans, as far as we know, are 398 00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:53.799 more intelligent than most animals, right, Like maybe dolphins are actually similar, 399 00:26:55.119 --> 00:26:57.519 right, And I mean this is something that's maybe hard to measure and hard 400 00:26:57.559 --> 00:27:03.240 to really know, but um, you know, dogs, adult dogs tend 401 00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:07.319 to have intelligence similar to like human two year olds, right, And and 402 00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:11.720 I mean humans aren't born with with the intelligence that that humans end up with 403 00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:15.559 that adult human stuff, right. Um, the brain develops over time. 404 00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:22.039 And I think if you basically are just like, well, these animals deserve 405 00:27:22.519 --> 00:27:26.119 you know, rights or just for me, the word rights isn't even like 406 00:27:26.200 --> 00:27:30.400 the word I want to use, just like to deserve decent treatment, respect, 407 00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:33.839 right, to deserve to be treated like they have feelings. Um. 408 00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:38.319 Then it's like if somebody needs to be able to tell you that they have 409 00:27:38.440 --> 00:27:44.400 feelings for you to respect their feelings, like that's you're you're not going very 410 00:27:44.440 --> 00:27:49.359 far to you know, try and try and understand anyone, right, um. 411 00:27:51.599 --> 00:27:57.519 And so bringing in you know, the other animals who have not achieved 412 00:27:57.599 --> 00:28:03.000 like human like adult human like intelligence. And that's not to say that five 413 00:28:03.079 --> 00:28:07.359 year old or ten year old humans don't also have a you know, increased 414 00:28:07.400 --> 00:28:12.839 level of intelligence, but like that, that's not the thing that is why 415 00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:22.160 they deserve respect and decency, right, It's it's because they are feeling like 416 00:28:22.279 --> 00:28:26.559 Sentience is the word that often is used to mean human like intelligence, but 417 00:28:26.599 --> 00:28:33.519 sentience literally means the ability to feel and you know, basically regardless of intelligence 418 00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:40.559 level, like animals feel, right, I mean it's it's and and feel 419 00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:45.440 specifically feel suffering, but also joy and other emotions. Right, And just 420 00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:49.640 because they don't have words, Like they can't tell you with words, but 421 00:28:49.720 --> 00:28:53.279 that doesn't mean that they can't express it. I mean a cat purring, 422 00:28:53.400 --> 00:28:56.799 Like, what does that mean? You know what that means? Right? 423 00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:02.640 Spend any time with a dog that has had you know, a really you 424 00:29:02.680 --> 00:29:07.359 know, not great owner in its past, and the colloquial term I would 425 00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:11.000 want to use is that the dog has something akin to PTSD. I don't. 426 00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:15.759 I don't want to trivialize that actually very real condition which I do have. 427 00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:18.079 But and so I don't. I don't have any idea if like the 428 00:29:18.200 --> 00:29:22.960 brain chemistry is similar, but certainly in terms of like the way early trauma 429 00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:27.160 can severely affect a human for the rest of its life, early trauma can 430 00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:30.440 definitely affect a dog and the rest of its life. And I imagine many 431 00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:33.480 other animals, but dogs are the ones that I think we were the most 432 00:29:33.480 --> 00:29:37.359 aware of in that way. Yeah, because it's because dogs are like the 433 00:29:37.400 --> 00:29:41.359 most human facing animals, right at least skin in certain cultures. Right, 434 00:29:41.480 --> 00:29:48.680 And and yeah, I think say saying it that's PTSD is to me, 435 00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:52.720 that's not trivializing you know, human PTSD. It's like, yeah, okay, 436 00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:56.680 maybe you don't want to offer a clinical diagnosis, right, right, 437 00:29:56.720 --> 00:30:00.680 but it's like, well, that is literally post traumatic and there's there's something 438 00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:06.720 going on right a part of it exactly exactly, And and you could call 439 00:30:06.759 --> 00:30:11.319 it a disorder because there's there's challenges that you know, the dog is facing 440 00:30:11.400 --> 00:30:15.599 that then anybody trying to interact with the dog is gonna have have a hard 441 00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:19.279 time, right and um, and you know, and there's there's a lot 442 00:30:19.319 --> 00:30:25.720 of wonderful people who who work with with dogs and other animals who've been through 443 00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:33.119 things like this, right and um. Actually there's there's a Batman story right 444 00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:38.160 about that's where that's where Ace comes from basically, um in in Batman beyond 445 00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:44.279 and um, you know, but obviously in our world this is something that 446 00:30:44.279 --> 00:30:47.839 that happens a lot. And and there's people who who you know, try 447 00:30:47.839 --> 00:30:52.319 and try and deal with this and and help animals heal like emotionally, right 448 00:30:52.359 --> 00:30:56.000 And and if I mean, if you can see that an animal can be 449 00:30:56.119 --> 00:31:00.079 emotionally scarred by cruelty and mistreatment, then like obviously you know that they're suffering 450 00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:07.000 going on, right. And I think the practice of like referring to animals 451 00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:12.079 who are experimented on by numbers is specifically so that the experimenters don't have to 452 00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:17.640 feel the same level of attachment that them might if they you know, called 453 00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:22.039 them Mike or like, you know, yeah, Betsy or something. It's 454 00:31:22.119 --> 00:31:27.039 yeah, it's it's a way of shutting off the natural empathy or passion that 455 00:31:27.079 --> 00:31:30.440 a person would feel. And that's I think we've talked before about how that's 456 00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:36.160 something that happens, Like that's a way that we justify cruelty towards other humans, 457 00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:40.200 you know, and everything from like racism and sexism and like you know, 458 00:31:40.359 --> 00:31:42.440 myth telling of like oh all these people and that's everything from like the 459 00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:45.920 way people talk about trans people today to like, you know, the way 460 00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:48.599 the US Army was taught about Japanese people as these like hortable brutes, and 461 00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:52.680 it happens in all cultures and stuff like. Yeah. There's two two things 462 00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:57.480 actually that I kind of want to throw in here. One is that I 463 00:31:57.519 --> 00:32:02.480 think this is another reason that people have such an easier time being awful to 464 00:32:02.480 --> 00:32:08.880 people who don't speak their language and being anti immigration and anti immigrant and um 465 00:32:09.640 --> 00:32:14.279 and anti people who live in the United States but maybe don't speak English as 466 00:32:14.400 --> 00:32:17.400 much right, and I would that I'm also very able ift towards people who 467 00:32:17.400 --> 00:32:24.240 don't communicate well absolute exactly, like the idea like, oh well, if 468 00:32:24.279 --> 00:32:29.279 you can't explain to me you know everything about how you're feeling, I can 469 00:32:29.319 --> 00:32:31.400 just ignore your feelings, you know, which is which is terrible? Like 470 00:32:31.640 --> 00:32:36.640 And it's not like somebody needs to be able to use words in a language 471 00:32:36.640 --> 00:32:40.599 you understand to explain certain things, to communicate certain fundamental things. Right, 472 00:32:40.799 --> 00:32:45.359 Obviously there's not going to be as much nuance if you don't share share a 473 00:32:45.440 --> 00:32:50.799 language. But um. And then the second one is that when when we 474 00:32:50.839 --> 00:32:54.839 talk about things like like slavery, when we talk about things like the Holocaust, 475 00:32:55.559 --> 00:33:01.039 a common or just any kind of oppression of other humans, one of 476 00:33:01.160 --> 00:33:07.240 the very common phrases people use is that you know, such and such group 477 00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:12.359 or an individual person was treated like an animal, or we're treated like animals. 478 00:33:12.359 --> 00:33:15.480 And to me, that tells you everything you need to know about how 479 00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:21.920 humans feel. It's okay to treat animals. Yeah, could could the more 480 00:33:21.920 --> 00:33:23.559 subtle version of that, but I think it's very true. It's very true 481 00:33:23.559 --> 00:33:27.839 as well, there's dehumanized, yeah, because exactly, but if they're not 482 00:33:27.920 --> 00:33:30.200 human then what are they? Right, It's exactly. And it's like, 483 00:33:32.480 --> 00:33:39.400 I feel like the phrase dehumanized is a useful one and the Black Sabbath album 484 00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:45.000 Dehumanizer is actually a very underrated album. But um, but it also it 485 00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:51.400 carries a little bit of species ism, and you know, there is a 486 00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:55.160 thing where it's like, Okay, people get very angry. A lot of 487 00:33:55.160 --> 00:34:04.079 people get very angry, like when you compare um horrors done to other humans 488 00:34:04.599 --> 00:34:08.000 with horrors done to non human animals, right, and like I understand that, 489 00:34:08.360 --> 00:34:12.559 but like, whenever I do that, it's not because I think that 490 00:34:12.599 --> 00:34:16.079 the horrors done to humans were less horrible than someone else thinks they are. 491 00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:21.679 It's just that I think that the horrors done to animals also rise to that 492 00:34:21.800 --> 00:34:25.039 level. Yeah, you know, and it's like it it's like people being 493 00:34:25.079 --> 00:34:28.360 like, oh, what was worse like slavery of the Holocaust? Like, 494 00:34:28.400 --> 00:34:34.079 no, that's that's not a thing right there, They're both maximum awfulness and 495 00:34:34.199 --> 00:34:37.320 there's no need to like compare. Yeah, And I think that's important because 496 00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:43.840 I think there's sometimes the perception that, you know, as a professional fundraiser. 497 00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:46.239 To me, one of the hardest things is that every time I write 498 00:34:46.239 --> 00:34:50.519 a grant or I'm asking people from money. I always should have feel like 499 00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:52.960 I'm saying, like, don't give money to that cause, give money to 500 00:34:53.000 --> 00:35:00.519 my cause instead, right, And I think that the nonprofit capitalist industrial complex 501 00:35:00.679 --> 00:35:04.360 like pushes that narrative. But I think it's important understand that most of us 502 00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:06.840 are not engaging in that, and that includes Vegan that you know, I've 503 00:35:07.239 --> 00:35:13.000 I've are there extreme The extremists from Peter I think often get bad attention, 504 00:35:13.119 --> 00:35:16.239 But every nonprofit cause I know has extremists, and I think for the most 505 00:35:16.280 --> 00:35:21.360 part, I very rarely hear a Vegan and being like, wait, don't 506 00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:23.679 give money to Black Lives Matter, give money to help stop this you know, 507 00:35:24.119 --> 00:35:27.840 animal experiment, Like they're all like, yeah, all this oppression is 508 00:35:27.880 --> 00:35:31.159 wrong, you know, yeah, exactly. And you know the thing that 509 00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:36.519 I would throw on top of that is like, you know, as someone 510 00:35:36.599 --> 00:35:42.880 advocating on behalf of animals, like I understand, animals can't really advocate on 511 00:35:42.920 --> 00:35:46.639 behalf of themselves in within human society. Like, yes, there's the cow 512 00:35:46.800 --> 00:35:52.400 I think her name was Bessie that just escaped like like she was a hero. 513 00:35:52.639 --> 00:35:54.920 You know, there's there's a picture of her at the Candle Cafe, 514 00:35:55.039 --> 00:35:59.320 like my favorite vegan restaurant back in the day. They just reopened a new 515 00:35:59.320 --> 00:36:01.840 one. But like you know, on the whole, like you don't You're 516 00:36:01.840 --> 00:36:05.559 not going to see a bunch of cows like marching down to Congress or anything, 517 00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:09.119 right, Whereas with human causes, it's like there's always going to be 518 00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:13.079 someone who's trying to stick up for themselves and I'm going to be like, 519 00:36:13.239 --> 00:36:15.159 yes, I have your back, you know, yeah, and I'm going 520 00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:20.800 to try and talk about it and help more people understand what the person is 521 00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:25.440 saying in self advocacy. Right. But but like with animals, it's just 522 00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:29.199 it has to be a little different the same way, like if you're advocating 523 00:36:29.199 --> 00:36:31.920 for like two year olds, right, yeah you would, It's just a 524 00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:36.800 little different. Yeah, no, I hear that. So the other thing 525 00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:38.400 that the movie did that really kind of struck me, and this one, 526 00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:40.440 I know we've talked about before, but I want to use this as a 527 00:36:40.519 --> 00:36:45.599 chance to get back into it is again with this idea of like, okay, 528 00:36:45.639 --> 00:36:49.760 but like the cuddly cute animals, those are the ones who care about, 529 00:36:49.960 --> 00:36:52.800 right, And there were two ways the movie addressed this. The first 530 00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:59.480 is that there's a scene towards the end of the movie some spoilers here where 531 00:37:00.559 --> 00:37:06.800 they get attacked by these just like huge they look very monstrous and scary to 532 00:37:06.920 --> 00:37:09.639 human eyes. They look a lot like kind of the rolling balls of teeth 533 00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:15.280 from The Force Awakens, if you remember that movie. They've got tentacles and 534 00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:20.079 teeth and they're roaring and chopping and they're getting ready to attack, and our 535 00:37:20.119 --> 00:37:22.159 heroes are getting ready to attack. And then Mantis, who's kind of the 536 00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:24.199 EmPATH one of them, sho steps up. It's like wait, wait, 537 00:37:24.199 --> 00:37:28.679 wait a minute, wait a minute, and she kind of like figures out 538 00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:34.239 these animals are just afraid and they're they're they're they're trying to be scary because 539 00:37:34.280 --> 00:37:40.400 they're afraid, and that's what is their instinctual reaction to do. And on 540 00:37:40.400 --> 00:37:44.840 the surface level, there's a like, you know, don't always be scared 541 00:37:44.840 --> 00:37:47.920 of the scary looking animal, but it actually goes a lot deeper to wait 542 00:37:47.960 --> 00:37:52.119 a minute. A lot of the times that like an animal is attacking us, 543 00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:58.039 like there's a difference between like you're in a wolf's territory and the wolf's 544 00:37:58.039 --> 00:38:01.280 trying to attack you because you're in its territory versus like you know, the 545 00:38:01.320 --> 00:38:07.000 Imperial Guard is trying to shoot you because you know you're you're trying to fight 546 00:38:07.039 --> 00:38:10.280 the empire. Like, both of them may pose a lethal threat and you 547 00:38:10.280 --> 00:38:15.400 may need to act accordingly. But in one of those cases, it's a 548 00:38:15.559 --> 00:38:19.559 like that human should be choosing Otherwise in other case, it's like, no, 549 00:38:19.639 --> 00:38:22.519 this isn't just an animal doing what it's doing, and maybe you're the 550 00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:25.400 idiot for like putting yourself in that position, or maybe you can like recognize 551 00:38:25.400 --> 00:38:30.039 its fear and back away, which is exactly what winds up happening. And 552 00:38:30.079 --> 00:38:31.480 she kind of is able to connect with the animals and be like, no, 553 00:38:31.480 --> 00:38:34.800 they're just afraid, and we can show them we're not a threat. 554 00:38:35.079 --> 00:38:37.239 They're not going to be scary to us. Yeah, And I mean that 555 00:38:37.840 --> 00:38:43.920 that often is very effective in you know, in real life, like especially 556 00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:49.400 with like like if you see a dog who's like growling at you, you 557 00:38:49.440 --> 00:38:53.320 know, like you don't like if you're aggressive towards them, they're going to 558 00:38:53.440 --> 00:39:00.079 continue to be aggressive, right, But often there are ways of diffusing thing. 559 00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:09.440 But yeah, I mean, you know, one of one of the 560 00:39:10.280 --> 00:39:15.880 most effective ways to to get attacked by animals is to you know, basically 561 00:39:16.280 --> 00:39:22.599 tread on their you know, home area. You know, animals have castle 562 00:39:22.639 --> 00:39:25.840 defense, right, yeah, exactly, Like you know, I mean there's 563 00:39:25.880 --> 00:39:31.199 the sort of you know, I don't I don't know if it's a trope 564 00:39:31.280 --> 00:39:36.199 or whatever, but of like the you know, the the mother animal like 565 00:39:36.320 --> 00:39:40.360 defending it's young or whatever or her young um. Which to circle back to 566 00:39:40.400 --> 00:39:46.800 pronouns like I do it as like an unconscious thing, but like calling animals 567 00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:54.440 like it and it's is like a very interesting dehumanizing or you know, depersonizing 568 00:39:54.760 --> 00:40:00.800 um to the point where I've actually contemplating using it it's pronounced myself to just 569 00:40:00.840 --> 00:40:04.440 be like deal with it. You know. Also because like at some point 570 00:40:04.599 --> 00:40:07.920 robots are going to get called it and it's and like we'll probably be sentiented 571 00:40:08.480 --> 00:40:13.039 and it's like, well, dude, you know, I will say, 572 00:40:13.079 --> 00:40:15.679 like, you know, in the neo pronoun world, like, yeah, 573 00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:19.320 a lot of non binary folks I know use they them, but I definitely 574 00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:22.039 have met folks who use it. It's and the two working the most eas 575 00:40:22.119 --> 00:40:24.679 they think of both were vegans and both that was one of the points they 576 00:40:24.679 --> 00:40:29.400 made as to when they did it. Interesting Yeah, yeah, yeah, 577 00:40:29.440 --> 00:40:34.599 so I And it's funny actually because forgive me for calling back to a part 578 00:40:34.639 --> 00:40:37.920 of something you generally enjoyed but that we both really did not like. In 579 00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:43.159 to me, this is something that Star Wars has gotten this exact same question 580 00:40:43.199 --> 00:40:46.000 both very right and very wrong, which is so striking to me. And 581 00:40:46.079 --> 00:40:51.719 that in Mandalorian season two there's this whole episode basically where they go to a 582 00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:55.719 planet where ice spiders happen to live, and yeah, the movie is portrayed 583 00:40:55.840 --> 00:41:00.400 at like the show shows them as like these big scary monsters that are going 584 00:41:00.440 --> 00:41:04.000 to kill our poor, helpless characters. And there was a kind of cheer 585 00:41:04.119 --> 00:41:08.280 as the ice spiders are just slaughtered on mass whereas like, yeah, they're 586 00:41:08.280 --> 00:41:12.639 just defending their home that these people have come and invaded. Yeah, and 587 00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:16.079 I didn't like it at the time. You especially helped point out what was 588 00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:22.159 problematic about it. And there I rewatched Rebels and there's a whole sort of 589 00:41:22.159 --> 00:41:28.000 plotline in Rebels about how big giant spiders that look terrifying, Yeah, are 590 00:41:28.039 --> 00:41:31.360 not actually scary if you're not scared of them. And I would just say 591 00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:35.760 you kind of maybe like laugh, like Okay, Feloni, You're really good 592 00:41:35.800 --> 00:41:38.119 for the most part, like referencing your own stuff. But here's an issue 593 00:41:38.119 --> 00:41:44.079 that you previously got right and now you're getting wrong right because well, did 594 00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:52.320 Feloni write that episode of um? Well so in Rebels, actually they kind 595 00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:57.440 of have both sides of it, because there is the whole. Like earlier 596 00:41:57.480 --> 00:42:01.719 on, there's an episode that really bothered me with in season one where you 597 00:42:01.760 --> 00:42:06.559 know, basically, Hara and Sabine I think, go to meet up with 598 00:42:06.599 --> 00:42:08.920 Fulcrum and I won't get too into the details, but like basically it's a 599 00:42:08.920 --> 00:42:13.719 bunch of scary looking animals and they kill a bunch of them, you know, 600 00:42:13.760 --> 00:42:16.679 and then later, like you know, they communicate with them. But 601 00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:20.360 it's a different thing, right, I mean, it's like it's Ezra and 602 00:42:20.719 --> 00:42:25.199 Canan. But like so I feel like Felony kind of and I think this 603 00:42:25.199 --> 00:42:32.039 this maybe gets to another point where I feel like some writers and certainly a 604 00:42:32.039 --> 00:42:39.840 lot of people I think kind of selectively you know, can like can can 605 00:42:39.920 --> 00:42:45.400 take that and use it as a story, but then not have like fully 606 00:42:45.480 --> 00:42:50.960 internalized like the idea, you know, because like I feel like it seems 607 00:42:51.039 --> 00:42:55.239 like a good story to Feloni, you know, But I mean I don't 608 00:42:55.239 --> 00:43:00.280 know that much about about Dave, but um, just just not I'm kind 609 00:43:00.280 --> 00:43:04.480 of acting though he has final script approval over everything that's ever been done in 610 00:43:04.480 --> 00:43:06.960 the last twenty years of Star Wars. Yeah, yeah, which is not 611 00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:09.119 the case, but just to kind of no, yeah, but I get 612 00:43:09.119 --> 00:43:14.639 it. And to me, it's like, there's so here in Guardians of 613 00:43:14.679 --> 00:43:19.800 the Galaxy three, Right, You've got a bunch of stuff about experimenting on 614 00:43:19.840 --> 00:43:22.960 animals, right, which is I don't know whether it's for science or whether 615 00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:27.559 it's for personal gain or what. And you can address that or not. 616 00:43:27.719 --> 00:43:32.239 But like, to me, it's like I think it's gonna I wonder whether 617 00:43:32.280 --> 00:43:36.280 it will be easy for someone to see this movie and think, oh, 618 00:43:36.320 --> 00:43:40.079 well, experimenting on animals is horrible. We've we've got to stop that much. 619 00:43:40.280 --> 00:43:45.480 Yes, well we'll do something about that. But like, you know, 620 00:43:45.199 --> 00:43:50.119 eating them is fine, you know, or keeping them in cages for 621 00:43:50.119 --> 00:43:55.599 for you know, for dairy and whatever. And I mean that's the sort 622 00:43:55.599 --> 00:43:59.599 of thing where like if if I were writing the movie and like this, 623 00:43:59.599 --> 00:44:01.679 this might be the sort of thing where it would be a challenge to kind 624 00:44:01.719 --> 00:44:07.000 of bring it back around. But like I would probably have like star Lord 625 00:44:07.079 --> 00:44:08.760 going to Earth and like trying to order a burger and be like, oh, 626 00:44:08.840 --> 00:44:12.800 I just can't do it, you know, Yeah, And I will 627 00:44:12.840 --> 00:44:16.800 say that is one Like there's a kind of larger issue here also in terms 628 00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:21.280 of like movies that like, you know, we're kind of we're at like 629 00:44:21.400 --> 00:44:24.559 level five. It sounds a little patronized, but like, let's do it. 630 00:44:24.639 --> 00:44:29.719 Let's patronize. Yeah, Like we're like, there's a particular issue that 631 00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:32.880 you have done like numerous levels of analysis on and gotten into numerous levels of 632 00:44:32.960 --> 00:44:37.400 nuance, and there's a movie or a TV show that's introducing the basic concepts 633 00:44:37.400 --> 00:44:39.960 to people, yeah, and where you're like, okay, well I could 634 00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:43.280 get really critical about how they're still not getting it right, but at least 635 00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:46.280 they're starting the conversation. There is a running thing in the movie that I 636 00:44:46.320 --> 00:44:52.199 really didn't like that felt very clearly like the movie is saying we want you 637 00:44:52.239 --> 00:44:53.960 to feel bad about the way animals are treated, but we're not saying you 638 00:44:53.960 --> 00:44:58.760 have to be a vegetarian, which is that people are walking around eating. 639 00:44:58.960 --> 00:45:02.840 Like first of all, I rewatched the first Guardians movie and forgot that it 640 00:45:02.840 --> 00:45:07.440 opens up with star Lord just like kicking these little rats all over oh yeah, 641 00:45:07.519 --> 00:45:10.400 yeah, yeah, and like picking them up and singing into them. 642 00:45:10.719 --> 00:45:15.239 Basically like the delicacy on the planet that they're now on most of the time 643 00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:20.119 is like those rats on a stick that someone has roasted, right, And 644 00:45:20.159 --> 00:45:23.360 like numerous characters are shown eating them, I think including Rocket at one point, 645 00:45:23.480 --> 00:45:27.760 right, And that is never questioned in the slightest and that felt to 646 00:45:27.800 --> 00:45:31.599 me like a either a it was a glaring oversight, being more likely it 647 00:45:31.639 --> 00:45:36.960 was an intentional way of the movie being like, yeah, we're we're gonna 648 00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:38.360 push the animal rights thing, but don't worry. You should still go have 649 00:45:38.360 --> 00:45:43.400 a hamburger after this does not feel bad? Yeah, And that you know 650 00:45:43.480 --> 00:45:45.599 that to me, I'm sure would bother me a lot, you know, 651 00:45:45.719 --> 00:45:49.840 yeah, I mean it me and I to eat me. Yeah. And 652 00:45:49.880 --> 00:45:54.239 there's there's stuff in in Live Action Star Wars where they're similarly um those there's 653 00:45:54.239 --> 00:45:59.719 something with like those you know that that annoying little loud dude who's like hanging 654 00:45:59.719 --> 00:46:01.599 out with Java. There's like them on a stick or something, and like 655 00:46:01.639 --> 00:46:05.400 I don't like that, you know, I think I don't know if it's 656 00:46:05.400 --> 00:46:08.559 on tatterwheen or what but like, I yeah, that to me, that's 657 00:46:08.599 --> 00:46:14.440 like an opportunity you know where it did. It wouldn't even have to be 658 00:46:14.480 --> 00:46:16.679 like a big thing, right, That's like that could be like a fifteen 659 00:46:16.800 --> 00:46:22.039 second beat where it's like after going and doing all of all of what they've 660 00:46:22.039 --> 00:46:27.079 done, like coming back and being like oh yeah, huh, you know, 661 00:46:27.159 --> 00:46:30.119 and it's like you don't even have to have them be like oh I 662 00:46:30.159 --> 00:46:35.119 am now never gonna eat, just like posing the question even you know, 663 00:46:35.159 --> 00:46:39.000 and like drawing the connection to me, and I do I do believe in 664 00:46:39.079 --> 00:46:44.800 like better than nothing, you know, Like I think, yeah, getting 665 00:46:44.800 --> 00:46:49.679 people to start to question things is better than not doing that. Right. 666 00:46:49.960 --> 00:46:52.880 You don't always have to connect all the dots for everybody, but like you 667 00:46:52.920 --> 00:46:58.320 know, I do think it would be nice to like put put a little 668 00:46:58.320 --> 00:47:00.440 bit a little bit more like than then when it sounds like it sounds like 669 00:47:00.480 --> 00:47:07.880 that issue definitely went completely on address And yeah, there's two funny things I'll 670 00:47:07.920 --> 00:47:12.719 say about One is that maybe not funny, but sad. I think you're 671 00:47:12.800 --> 00:47:15.519 right. I would have liked it if they had done just a little thing 672 00:47:15.559 --> 00:47:21.039 on that. I think if they had the number of people who felt like 673 00:47:21.519 --> 00:47:24.920 or who would claim that this was now an example of a movie that was 674 00:47:24.960 --> 00:47:30.639 just making a point at the expense of good storytelling would go up significantly because 675 00:47:31.639 --> 00:47:35.559 and I'm not saying that's a reason not to do it, Like I think 676 00:47:35.559 --> 00:47:38.719 it's a hard calculus to do, but I'm guessing that that that level of 677 00:47:38.840 --> 00:47:44.199 challenging people would have and maybe to me, that's a good reason to do 678 00:47:44.239 --> 00:47:46.039 it. But like, I do think that would be the thing that would 679 00:47:46.039 --> 00:47:50.760 push a lot of people to be like, oh, like, I'm I'm 680 00:47:50.800 --> 00:47:55.159 comfortable feeling like this guy who tortures animals is fine, is bad, but 681 00:47:55.159 --> 00:47:58.280 but no, like, you know, just let me eat my burger in 682 00:47:58.320 --> 00:48:01.800 peace, right, Yeah. So so I mean, obviously we don't know 683 00:48:01.880 --> 00:48:07.920 and won't know, but I feel like, to me, it's like, 684 00:48:08.159 --> 00:48:12.519 so, first of all, obviously there's already a fair number of people who 685 00:48:12.599 --> 00:48:16.800 are saying that, and you know, the outrage machine is still working right 686 00:48:16.840 --> 00:48:21.119 well, and do the flip side on that. One of the biggest not 687 00:48:21.119 --> 00:48:22.440 one of the biggest, but one of the forms of outrage that I've seen 688 00:48:23.400 --> 00:48:27.320 is that apparently a lot of kids are going to this movie and then being 689 00:48:27.360 --> 00:48:30.159 like mommy, Daddy, I don't want to eat animals anymore. That's fantaists 690 00:48:30.159 --> 00:48:32.039 are annoyed that their kids are vegetarians. So like, even if I had 691 00:48:32.119 --> 00:48:35.960 that, some kids are getting the right message there. Yeah, perfect, 692 00:48:36.159 --> 00:48:38.199 Yeah, I mean parents, you got to you gotta understand your kids have 693 00:48:38.239 --> 00:48:42.639 agency and there's a reasonable chance they have better as ideas than you do. 694 00:48:42.840 --> 00:48:49.400 But you know, yeah, and that's why I think like a fifteen second 695 00:48:49.679 --> 00:48:52.679 kind of almost throw away, like you could blink and you could miss it, 696 00:48:52.719 --> 00:48:57.800 but it's there would be the way that I would want to try and 697 00:48:57.880 --> 00:49:01.639 address something like that, because I think if you had a big five ten 698 00:49:01.719 --> 00:49:06.920 minute you know, bonus plot, arc or whatever that's really hitting people over 699 00:49:06.960 --> 00:49:09.360 the head with it, I don't see that being as effective, you know. 700 00:49:09.719 --> 00:49:13.639 I mean maybe that's a story that's a different story or whatever, right, 701 00:49:13.679 --> 00:49:21.360 But like I think there are I think often there's room to do subtle 702 00:49:21.440 --> 00:49:25.719 things, you know, that that can sort of satisfy a point that I 703 00:49:25.800 --> 00:49:31.119 want to see without I'll put it this way, I think you could try 704 00:49:31.119 --> 00:49:35.800 and write a scene like that and like potentially ruin the movie, right, 705 00:49:35.880 --> 00:49:39.719 yeah, like and and and and kind of undermine your point by being just 706 00:49:39.840 --> 00:49:45.760 way too on the nose and um, and just it could just not work 707 00:49:45.960 --> 00:49:51.000 right. Yeah, But I also think, like when you told me that 708 00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:54.079 that that's a thing to me that feels like, oh, that's a way 709 00:49:54.119 --> 00:49:59.480 better way of doing it than like having some like star Lord on Earth and 710 00:49:59.559 --> 00:50:02.079 Cheeseman. Now all you need it would be rocket, like a bunch of 711 00:50:02.079 --> 00:50:06.440 them going up to buy more of those like rats on stick rocket being m 712 00:50:06.880 --> 00:50:07.880 yeah, actually I'll pass, or something like yeah, you know, or 713 00:50:07.920 --> 00:50:10.960 like not today. You know, It's like it doesn't even have to be 714 00:50:12.039 --> 00:50:15.119 like a character being like I am now a vegetarian, like yeah, sure, 715 00:50:15.239 --> 00:50:19.400 that's great, Like I'd like to see more vegetarians represented in fiction. 716 00:50:19.480 --> 00:50:22.840 But like even just to like, you know, right now I'm knockingna like 717 00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:27.119 that to me is enough to just like put just a little a little idea, 718 00:50:27.639 --> 00:50:29.480 yeah, you know, just like I think it's good way of putting 719 00:50:29.440 --> 00:50:31.360 it. Um. There's one last thing that the movie did that I get, 720 00:50:31.400 --> 00:50:34.960 and that's kind of on a similar note but a little bit different from 721 00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:38.679 what we're just saying. But it's not that same. Like recognizing that a 722 00:50:38.800 --> 00:50:43.599 creature looking scary to us doesn't mean that it has less moral value, less 723 00:50:43.719 --> 00:50:49.000 all worth Um, and it's where our heroes are all trying to find all 724 00:50:49.039 --> 00:50:54.320 of the animals that are shooting of all kinds and rescue them. And Mantis 725 00:50:54.400 --> 00:50:59.159 is going through and you know, to the different cages, and many of 726 00:50:59.159 --> 00:51:01.480 them are human animal as many of them are clearly not they're animals from other 727 00:51:01.480 --> 00:51:05.920 planets. And she goes into one cage. I have an animal that is 728 00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:09.800 just you know, I think designed to The words that come to mind when 729 00:51:09.800 --> 00:51:13.320 I look at it are ugly and scary. It's got like, you know, 730 00:51:13.320 --> 00:51:15.960 a lot of big teeth, and it looks weird and shapen, and 731 00:51:15.400 --> 00:51:20.840 it just is like ah. And she has that initial reaction, and then 732 00:51:20.920 --> 00:51:24.760 immediately she says to the animal, Oh, no, no, no, 733 00:51:24.920 --> 00:51:29.039 I saw something scary behind you. I don't think you're scary, You're beautiful. 734 00:51:29.119 --> 00:51:34.000 Come let me help you. And it was such a like not only 735 00:51:34.079 --> 00:51:42.239 does she acknowledge that her fear reaction to this animal is not unjustified, but 736 00:51:42.280 --> 00:51:45.920 that it's wrong. You know that there's nothing inherently scary or wrong about this 737 00:51:45.960 --> 00:51:50.960 animal, and then it's just as it's just as deserving of being rescued as 738 00:51:51.000 --> 00:51:54.039 all the others, but that she also like this animal doesn't speak to her. 739 00:51:54.039 --> 00:51:59.039 This animal doesn't, as you were just saying, doesn't express any emotional 740 00:51:59.079 --> 00:52:01.440 reaction to her react action. Yeah, but she still feels a like, 741 00:52:01.519 --> 00:52:05.039 no, no, I need to reassure this animal that I wasn't scared about 742 00:52:05.079 --> 00:52:07.840 it, right, And I would just like that that again is a moment 743 00:52:07.920 --> 00:52:13.960 of yes, you're not going to five oh one, but you're also like 744 00:52:14.079 --> 00:52:15.719 you understand that you're at one oh one. There's some things you're still missing, 745 00:52:15.719 --> 00:52:19.239 and you're going a little further than that. And I appreciate that that 746 00:52:19.360 --> 00:52:23.280 was maybe in terms of like the betrayal of animals, portrayal not betrayal. 747 00:52:23.719 --> 00:52:28.519 Um, maybe my favorite moment of just like the thoughtfulness that went into that 748 00:52:28.559 --> 00:52:32.599 one scene. Yeah, that sounds really nice, um, And I think 749 00:52:32.639 --> 00:52:38.599 like it's like you don't have to feel bad about having like biased thoughts, 750 00:52:39.039 --> 00:52:44.840 right, Yeah, Like you don't have to feel bad about having thoughts and 751 00:52:44.920 --> 00:52:51.360 sometimes desires of doing things that that cause harm. Like you your thoughts are 752 00:52:51.360 --> 00:52:53.960 your thoughts, right, your feelings are your feelings, but like being able 753 00:52:54.000 --> 00:53:02.119 to recognize those thoughts and feelings and then still taken action that is not harmful, 754 00:53:02.239 --> 00:53:07.639 but that tries to undo or ameliorate or whatever whatever harm you may have 755 00:53:07.719 --> 00:53:13.679 done or may potentially do. Like to me, that's like more powerful and 756 00:53:13.760 --> 00:53:15.840 impressive than like, yeah, like for me, being a vegan is like 757 00:53:15.920 --> 00:53:22.119 pretty easy. Like I never really liked meet. I gradually stopped having dairy 758 00:53:22.159 --> 00:53:28.360 and eggs. Like now in the twenty first century, there's like there's too 759 00:53:28.400 --> 00:53:31.199 many vegan restaurants that like, I've managed to gain a lot of weight, 760 00:53:31.480 --> 00:53:35.199 you know, Like when I was younger, I was super thin, and 761 00:53:35.280 --> 00:53:37.519 like that was kind of just my build. But also it was just easy 762 00:53:37.679 --> 00:53:42.559 because like there just wasn't a lot, like there wasn't good vegan ice cream. 763 00:53:42.639 --> 00:53:45.440 I remember how mag you were when good vegan ice cream started hitting. 764 00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:47.239 I think, yeah, I was like, oh no, this is a 765 00:53:47.280 --> 00:53:52.199 disaster, you know. And it was fine when I was like exercising forty 766 00:53:52.199 --> 00:53:55.880 hours a week, you know, but when you stop doing that, you 767 00:53:55.960 --> 00:54:00.719 know, you can't have as many pints of the stuff, and and so 768 00:54:00.039 --> 00:54:06.079 you know, I think I have empathy for people who are like no, 769 00:54:06.159 --> 00:54:08.679 but but I really do like the taste. It's like, Okay, yeah, 770 00:54:08.760 --> 00:54:12.639 I understand, I get that. I don't get that on a personal 771 00:54:12.880 --> 00:54:16.119 I can relate directly, but like, I really like ice you know, 772 00:54:16.199 --> 00:54:19.239 vegan ice cream, and I don't want to eat it, you know, 773 00:54:19.639 --> 00:54:22.480 but I ask so much. But I mean then I can jump in um. 774 00:54:23.519 --> 00:54:27.559 As I said, I do stillate meat. I'm trying to reduce the 775 00:54:27.559 --> 00:54:30.079 amount of meat and I eat constantly and I now try to eat as much 776 00:54:30.119 --> 00:54:34.039 meat as I can. That only comes from ethically sourced where the animals are 777 00:54:34.039 --> 00:54:36.800 treated much better, but they are still getting killed so I can eat them. 778 00:54:36.840 --> 00:54:38.199 And I think that's something that a lot of people are still going to 779 00:54:38.239 --> 00:54:43.159 find ethnically objectionable. And as more time goes on, I may I may 780 00:54:43.239 --> 00:54:45.599 change that entirely. And if I was strugg me with that, that that 781 00:54:45.719 --> 00:54:50.320 is completely fair. But I'll say one kind of meat that I used to 782 00:54:50.320 --> 00:54:53.079 really enjoy because I thought it was the best chicken sandwich that I've ever had 783 00:54:53.119 --> 00:54:58.400 was chick fili And once I came to understand what they were doing with the 784 00:54:58.440 --> 00:55:00.920 money and how harmful it was to people like me, or even if I 785 00:55:00.960 --> 00:55:04.320 wasn't a person like that, but especially that, I was like, no, 786 00:55:04.400 --> 00:55:07.960 I haven't had a chick flay sandwich in like five years, seven years, 787 00:55:07.480 --> 00:55:10.960 and want to hear someone say everyone should give it up, it's not 788 00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:16.199 even any good. My reaction is always like, that's bad propaganda. Yeah, 789 00:55:16.400 --> 00:55:22.480 because what you're saying is what I would hear if I was still eating 790 00:55:22.519 --> 00:55:24.559 them. Is when you say I shouldn't eat them, you don't understand. 791 00:55:24.920 --> 00:55:28.679 You don't understand that I am giving up something, right, you know. 792 00:55:29.000 --> 00:55:30.199 And I so, yeah, this is all kind of a tangent, but 793 00:55:30.199 --> 00:55:34.280 I think that that's an important thing. Like I think it is completely valid 794 00:55:34.320 --> 00:55:37.559 for someone who's just like, yeah, I don't enjoy it anymore and all 795 00:55:37.639 --> 00:55:39.719 right, I'm just enjoying this other stuff and that's great. But also recognize 796 00:55:39.760 --> 00:55:43.199 that's very different than the person who's like, no, no, I you 797 00:55:43.239 --> 00:55:45.679 know, and I for me, I know also, And this sounds like 798 00:55:45.719 --> 00:55:47.000 justification, it's not. It's just more part of the thinking. Like a 799 00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:52.000 lot of it's also tied into like food is myself medication, So I don't 800 00:55:52.039 --> 00:55:54.679 drink or do drugs o man, Like that's a you know, thing I 801 00:55:54.760 --> 00:56:00.639 also work on as well. But it's that we all have such everybody has 802 00:56:00.679 --> 00:56:07.000 such very psychologically, socially economically complicated relationships of food. For myself, at 803 00:56:07.079 --> 00:56:09.719 least when I'm much more interesting is helping understand helping people understand how to make 804 00:56:09.719 --> 00:56:14.880 healthier choices, better choices, more ethical choices, and figure that out along 805 00:56:14.920 --> 00:56:19.159 the way. Yeah, and that was all a very long tangent my pure 806 00:56:20.679 --> 00:56:23.199 Yeah. I have never had Chick fil A, I'll say that, but 807 00:56:24.159 --> 00:56:32.000 that is very easy for me and I you know, I feel like it, 808 00:56:32.840 --> 00:56:37.639 like I would like to see a world where just people didn't eat animals 809 00:56:37.760 --> 00:56:44.440 anymore or animal products. If I live that long, they'll be fantastic. 810 00:56:44.480 --> 00:56:47.239 I'd be super happy about that. You know, someone's going to have to 811 00:56:47.280 --> 00:56:51.480 invent some anti aging stuff because I think it's going to take a long time. 812 00:56:52.480 --> 00:56:58.360 I do think that's a reasonable future, honestly, especially in terms of 813 00:56:58.480 --> 00:57:04.519 sustainability and whatnot. But you know, when it's like maybe one percent of 814 00:57:04.559 --> 00:57:08.199 the population is vegan, maybe I think less than five percent of the United 815 00:57:08.239 --> 00:57:14.400 States is vegetarian, even it was three percent for a long time. You 816 00:57:14.440 --> 00:57:15.880 know, if you ask me, like, would you rather double the percent 817 00:57:15.920 --> 00:57:21.360 of the population that was vegan or have everybody who eats meat cut their meat 818 00:57:21.400 --> 00:57:23.559 intake and half, it's like, of course it's the second one. Yeah, 819 00:57:23.679 --> 00:57:29.239 right, It's like like, yeah, I you know, I'd like 820 00:57:29.320 --> 00:57:32.559 to have more people that I fully agree with, but like, ultimately, 821 00:57:34.159 --> 00:57:36.639 to me, it's about, you know, how much how much harm is 822 00:57:36.639 --> 00:57:38.880 being done, how much suffering there is, and you know if you can 823 00:57:38.880 --> 00:57:43.320 cut that in half, not by you know, through an infinity gauntlet or 824 00:57:43.360 --> 00:57:49.119 something, but but like you know, and and so that's to me, 825 00:57:49.159 --> 00:57:52.480 it's like I'm a very all or nothing person, right, I'm like, 826 00:57:53.159 --> 00:57:57.320 I'm either gonna do a thing and I'm gonna do it a lot, or 827 00:57:57.360 --> 00:58:00.760 I'm not going to do it at all and better and for worse. Right, 828 00:58:00.960 --> 00:58:05.639 Like that's sort of where Zen Madman came from, as like a monicker, 829 00:58:05.800 --> 00:58:09.360 right, Like, but I understand that's not everybody, and that certainly 830 00:58:09.559 --> 00:58:15.559 isn't going to work for anybody or even maybe most people. And so I 831 00:58:15.599 --> 00:58:20.000 think, you know, if you feel like you would, if you feel 832 00:58:20.000 --> 00:58:23.320 conflicted, you know, like I think it's important to understand, you don't 833 00:58:23.360 --> 00:58:29.400 necessarily have to, you know, make whatever change you want to make all 834 00:58:29.440 --> 00:58:31.880 at once. You know, if you do and you can, that's great. 835 00:58:32.440 --> 00:58:37.519 I'm in support of that, you know, But if like if like 836 00:58:37.639 --> 00:58:40.000 meatless Mondays is like the best you can do, like that's better than not 837 00:58:40.119 --> 00:58:45.119 meatless. Mondays, you know what I mean, And I'll say in terms 838 00:58:45.159 --> 00:58:47.920 of like winking about that time where we're just stopping the meat, you know, 839 00:58:49.199 --> 00:58:52.199 to me, put aside all the other factors. Right now, when 840 00:58:52.239 --> 00:58:58.480 I walk into a store, a regular pound of meat might be a certain 841 00:58:58.519 --> 00:59:01.559 price because stuff that I like, where it's ethically and locally raised, it's 842 00:59:01.599 --> 00:59:06.239 more environmentally sustainable and the animals are treated much better, is probably going to 843 00:59:06.280 --> 00:59:09.440 be one one to two dollars more a pound, and the impossible burger stuff, 844 00:59:09.440 --> 00:59:12.719 the lab grown meat is going to be another dollar or two more a 845 00:59:12.719 --> 00:59:15.639 pound. Um, And that's all fine, I think, I you know, 846 00:59:15.840 --> 00:59:19.280 the right now one of those is subsidized and the rest aren't. And 847 00:59:19.400 --> 00:59:22.199 that's right, yeah, the whole set of topics. But yeah, that's 848 00:59:22.239 --> 00:59:27.679 a whole thing. And there is literal lab grown meat, like that's actually 849 00:59:27.719 --> 00:59:30.880 a thing now, which isn't what the impossible is, right, the impossible 850 00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:32.960 something else? But I thought I thought impossible murder was that, But you 851 00:59:34.039 --> 00:59:37.000 might be right. You know what, they didn't make it for me. 852 00:59:37.599 --> 00:59:42.199 I'm like, yes, Scross, yeah, because it is made for the 853 00:59:42.199 --> 00:59:46.480 person who wants to replicate the meat experience right, exactly exactly. I'm like, 854 00:59:46.639 --> 00:59:51.760 could it taste more like tofu? Yeah, that's not generally when I 855 00:59:52.119 --> 00:59:53.719 mean I want tofu to taste like tofu, but like, yeah, the 856 00:59:54.199 --> 00:59:59.159 really meaty taste things. I'm like, that's not I'm not your target audience. 857 00:59:59.239 --> 01:00:02.079 That's fine. I'm lot it exists like this movie, but I'm not 858 01:00:02.119 --> 01:00:07.039 really the target audience, and that's fine, all right, Well, anything 859 01:00:07.039 --> 01:00:08.480 else you want to say in this because there's one other piece of feedback and 860 01:00:08.519 --> 01:00:12.360 it's a bit of a doozy that I wanted to I think there's like two 861 01:00:12.440 --> 01:00:15.119 or three not as long as this, but kind of two or three sub 862 01:00:15.159 --> 01:00:17.519 issues it's going to raise. But any last things you want to say about 863 01:00:17.559 --> 01:00:22.840 this topic, Uh No, I feel like I just gave my you know, 864 01:00:22.880 --> 01:00:25.599 impassioned plea to like, you know, eat eat fewer animals if you 865 01:00:25.639 --> 01:00:30.599 can't eat no animals, And you know that's I'll close on that. Like, 866 01:00:30.760 --> 01:00:37.039 you know, I I'm it sounds like this movie does a good thing, 867 01:00:37.360 --> 01:00:40.039 you know. Um, it sounds like it does at least a reasonable 868 01:00:40.119 --> 01:00:44.440 job of it, you know, like anything, I'm sure it could do 869 01:00:44.480 --> 01:00:47.400 that better. I didn't actually see it, so I'm not commenting on how 870 01:00:47.440 --> 01:00:52.920 it's actually you know, executed. Um, and you know I don't speak 871 01:00:52.159 --> 01:00:55.920 four animals, but I try to speak in defense of them when when I 872 01:00:55.960 --> 01:01:00.039 can. No, I think it's fair and just let this go without making 873 01:01:00.159 --> 01:01:06.000 one one general review comment about the movie. The movie was a lot better 874 01:01:06.000 --> 01:01:09.639 than I expected it to be. I think it was a very good ninety 875 01:01:09.639 --> 01:01:19.239 minute long Rocket biopic, backstory origin movie wrapped in a two hour and thirty 876 01:01:19.239 --> 01:01:22.360 minute Guardians the Galaxy movie. I just thought there was especially because you get 877 01:01:22.360 --> 01:01:25.360 a lot of scenes of the Guardians without Rocket, and like, why would 878 01:01:25.400 --> 01:01:31.039 I watch this because I look interesting character. But they by the end, 879 01:01:31.639 --> 01:01:35.639 if you ever do watch it, just in terms of like a movie trilogy, 880 01:01:36.039 --> 01:01:38.880 they wrap up a lot of the stories in really interesting ways and in 881 01:01:38.880 --> 01:01:44.000 a different context. They do a lot of stuff with the relationships that I 882 01:01:44.039 --> 01:01:52.719 thought is ethically really interesting, particularly the fact that Peter Quill, who's feelings 883 01:01:52.719 --> 01:01:55.800 towards women have I think raised a lot of eyebrows my own very much included, 884 01:01:58.199 --> 01:02:02.119 and they don't have him get back together with with that's a big spoiler 885 01:02:02.159 --> 01:02:08.039 there. Sorry, but um we said spoiler warnings. Um yeah, yeah, 886 01:02:08.079 --> 01:02:09.719 I was thinking if I should cut that out. No, I'm gonna 887 01:02:09.760 --> 01:02:12.480 keep it in. We said, spoiler warnings. But yeah, it's a 888 01:02:13.000 --> 01:02:15.519 that I'll talk about a different topic. Um. But I was very happy 889 01:02:15.519 --> 01:02:17.239 with how they did that. I thought they do a lot of other really 890 01:02:17.280 --> 01:02:21.920 good things. They did very you know, emotionally aware. Um. And 891 01:02:21.960 --> 01:02:25.239 then have a mid credit scene that apparently, if you look closely, doesn't 892 01:02:25.239 --> 01:02:29.559 look like what it looks like, but it looks like the new version of 893 01:02:29.559 --> 01:02:32.880 the Guardians of the Galaxy are like helping all the people who've been rescued be 894 01:02:32.920 --> 01:02:37.639 settlers, and they're just going out to slaughter a bunch of wild animals. 895 01:02:37.599 --> 01:02:40.440 They are attacking the settlers, and I was like this, but apparently like 896 01:02:42.679 --> 01:02:45.360 it's a little too blink and you miss it. But they're all looking supposed 897 01:02:45.360 --> 01:02:50.159 to look like cyberhadically advanced, like their robotic robot thing, Like yeah, 898 01:02:50.199 --> 01:02:52.400 but it was just like, what did you do wat watch the movie? 899 01:02:52.440 --> 01:02:55.880 We just watched. Um. But anyway, a lot of great stuff there, 900 01:02:57.119 --> 01:02:59.719 So thank you so much, Sophia. That was a great piece of 901 01:02:59.719 --> 01:03:02.559 feed back. Thank you. And then there's another piece of feedback we got 902 01:03:02.599 --> 01:03:07.519 and I will admit I have been quite bad about following up on feedback. 903 01:03:07.840 --> 01:03:10.480 I'm going to try and catch up on it. And then this summer in 904 01:03:10.519 --> 01:03:14.400 general has been really rough, but by the end of the summer and my 905 01:03:14.440 --> 01:03:19.719 hope is that we're going to be much better about getting you all the right 906 01:03:19.760 --> 01:03:23.280 feedback at the right times and things like that. This feedback comes from some 907 01:03:23.360 --> 01:03:27.360 time ago, but partially it's because I spent a long time wondering like, 908 01:03:27.400 --> 01:03:30.280 how do I want to talk about this, and whether Paul should be a 909 01:03:30.280 --> 01:03:32.800 part of the conversation or not. And then Paul, of course was not 910 01:03:32.920 --> 01:03:36.920 a regular guest anymore, and so I talked about with Paul, and I 911 01:03:36.960 --> 01:03:39.000 think this is the right time to talk about it. And it's an email 912 01:03:39.039 --> 01:03:44.199 that raises a couple of different related but different topics, since we're gonna got 913 01:03:44.280 --> 01:03:49.039 to go through them one by one and again Paul. Paul read this email 914 01:03:49.079 --> 01:03:52.920 as well and was okay with it being read. It's from Sean McNeil, 915 01:03:52.559 --> 01:03:55.880 and he says, first, I want to say thank you for doing the 916 01:03:55.880 --> 01:04:00.079 Superhero Ethics podcast. Both you and Paul challenge me rightly to think differently than 917 01:04:00.079 --> 01:04:04.199 I normally would as I get older and my boy grows. I find the 918 01:04:04.239 --> 01:04:10.079 idea of sharing thoughts and opinions with others unlike myself more and more important. 919 01:04:10.920 --> 01:04:14.559 I don't like Paul at all, meaning I know we wouldn't get along in 920 01:04:14.599 --> 01:04:17.360 a social setting, just way too different, probably to the point where we 921 01:04:17.360 --> 01:04:21.199 would purposely avoid each other out of respect for not ruining the night arguing about 922 01:04:21.400 --> 01:04:27.000 something dumb. As for you and I am the eye and the eye he's 923 01:04:27.119 --> 01:04:30.920 Matthew. I could go on forever about my thoughts on organized religion. I 924 01:04:30.920 --> 01:04:32.719 had terrible experiences, but your honesty feels real, and I feel like we 925 01:04:32.760 --> 01:04:38.440 could spend hours challenging the way each other's views, challenging the way each other 926 01:04:38.519 --> 01:04:42.719 views and interacts with the world. So the point to the point I would 927 01:04:42.760 --> 01:04:45.840 like to challenge. So the point I would like to challenge the entire idea 928 01:04:45.880 --> 01:04:50.239 of great power comes great responsibility altogether. And this is some time ago we 929 01:04:50.280 --> 01:04:56.159 did an episode about that Uncle Ben's spider Man idea of great power comes great 930 01:04:56.199 --> 01:04:59.400 responsibility And is that actually too much pressure to put on heroes, etc. 931 01:05:00.800 --> 01:05:03.920 And he continues, I found that the majority of discussion focused on the idea 932 01:05:04.000 --> 01:05:06.719 that it was generally a good thing or that if you have power, no 933 01:05:06.719 --> 01:05:10.400 matter how you feel at the start, you will revel in the responsibility at 934 01:05:10.440 --> 01:05:14.159 the end. I think it's all garbage. Who has anyone to put that 935 01:05:14.199 --> 01:05:17.840 responsibility on any being, super or not? Who decided Superman is responsible for 936 01:05:17.880 --> 01:05:21.559 saving the world the people. I'm a person. I have no right to 937 01:05:21.559 --> 01:05:27.000 tell Superman he must save me. The government haha, it'd be pretty narcissistic 938 01:05:27.039 --> 01:05:30.280 for them to give themselves the responsibility right, take it out of superhero world. 939 01:05:30.679 --> 01:05:33.920 I am a fairly privileged white male. I have the power to stop 940 01:05:33.960 --> 01:05:38.320 some sort of injustice just by being a white male. Narcissistic for me to 941 01:05:38.360 --> 01:05:42.280 say in some way every day, is it my respon? Is it my 942 01:05:42.320 --> 01:05:45.039 responsibility to seek it out? Because I have the power. In America, 943 01:05:45.079 --> 01:05:47.599 we have pursuit of happiness. Where as long as I'm not infringing on anyone 944 01:05:47.599 --> 01:05:51.960 else's happiness, I can pursue mine. We as a society put on Superman 945 01:05:53.000 --> 01:05:56.760 to protect us all at all times. Does he get to pursue his happiness? 946 01:05:57.559 --> 01:06:00.199 May make him happy. It may make him happy to save me today. 947 01:06:00.360 --> 01:06:02.559 Maybe come happier to spend time with Lois instead of stop stopping my car 948 01:06:02.599 --> 01:06:06.599 crash. With great power comes great power. No one has the right to 949 01:06:06.639 --> 01:06:10.719 tell me what I must do with it as long as I'm pursuing my happiness, 950 01:06:10.760 --> 01:06:13.800 not getting the way of anyone else's just wearing my mask in the grocery 951 01:06:14.079 --> 01:06:17.079 and walking out as someone who refuses to wear one screams at an employee. 952 01:06:17.599 --> 01:06:20.679 Just because I have the power to step in doesn't mean I have the responsibility 953 01:06:20.679 --> 01:06:27.840 to. Please don't never stop making me think Sean McNeil. So, as 954 01:06:27.880 --> 01:06:30.679 you can tell, there's a couple of things in here, and we are 955 01:06:30.800 --> 01:06:33.679 going to get to the main point. Sean references. But I think, 956 01:06:34.079 --> 01:06:36.599 Paul, the stuff you said about you, I want to let you respond 957 01:06:36.599 --> 01:06:39.239 to it in general, but as you and I were talking about it, 958 01:06:39.280 --> 01:06:43.719 I think it it opens up some larger questions also about parasocial relationships and feedback 959 01:06:43.760 --> 01:06:45.719 and things like that. But let me just start by Paul, letting you 960 01:06:45.800 --> 01:06:50.559 kind of respond to it. Yeah, So, I guess thanks for the 961 01:06:50.639 --> 01:06:59.440 compliment. In terms of I think challenging people to think about things in different 962 01:06:59.440 --> 01:07:02.440 ways is pretty much the main reason that I like being on this podcast, 963 01:07:02.639 --> 01:07:05.159 aside from the fact that I would just want to like hang out and chat 964 01:07:05.199 --> 01:07:11.360 with Matthew anyway, but in terms of like the sort of the good that 965 01:07:11.400 --> 01:07:14.800 we do or that like what I would hope, you know, would be 966 01:07:14.840 --> 01:07:17.840 the benefit it is, you know, for me, it's it's not about 967 01:07:17.840 --> 01:07:23.320 telling someone this is my opinion and like it is right. I mean, 968 01:07:23.320 --> 01:07:27.840 obviously I think it's right, or change my opinion, but it's about saying 969 01:07:27.880 --> 01:07:30.719 this is my opinion, this is my point of view. You know, 970 01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:34.400 thanks for listening to it. And if it sways you, great, If 971 01:07:34.400 --> 01:07:42.559 it doesn't, that's fine, right, And so I think like the like 972 01:07:42.800 --> 01:07:45.320 you know, you don't like me, like you don't know me, you 973 01:07:45.320 --> 01:07:49.880 know, you know me on a podcast, you know, you know how 974 01:07:49.920 --> 01:07:56.199 I talk about certain things. I do not spend most of my time talking 975 01:07:56.239 --> 01:08:00.559 about these things. I mean sometimes I end up spending more more time than 976 01:08:00.599 --> 01:08:03.880 I would like talking about them, you know, outside of podcasting, and 977 01:08:03.960 --> 01:08:10.760 specifically, I've been doing superhero ethics a little less because I do find like 978 01:08:11.920 --> 01:08:15.199 there's kind of only a certain amount of juice kind of I have in terms 979 01:08:15.199 --> 01:08:19.880 of like dealing with all the awful things in the world or the things that 980 01:08:20.000 --> 01:08:24.159 I have issues with, and like, honestly, when I'm hanging out like 981 01:08:24.239 --> 01:08:26.399 I don't. I don't want to talk about all that all the time, 982 01:08:26.640 --> 01:08:30.399 you know, And so in terms of not getting along, I have no 983 01:08:30.439 --> 01:08:33.279 idea whether we would get along or not, except that like I get along 984 01:08:33.319 --> 01:08:39.000 with like just about everybody, and from like days of playing poker, Like 985 01:08:39.920 --> 01:08:43.199 I have right wing friends, I have libertarian friends, I have left wing 986 01:08:43.279 --> 01:08:47.199 friends, liberal friends like you know, neo liberal, neo conservative, Like 987 01:08:47.279 --> 01:08:53.279 I don't care, like I will be friends with anybody within the context of 988 01:08:53.800 --> 01:08:58.279 you know, doing an activity, sitting around playing poker. That's pretty much 989 01:08:58.319 --> 01:09:01.039 the activity I do these days. But like, you know, the exception 990 01:09:01.119 --> 01:09:05.600 would be like, yeah, if you bring something up, I might object, 991 01:09:06.000 --> 01:09:10.000 you know, sometimes I'll just let something go. But if like something 992 01:09:10.039 --> 01:09:15.680 seems like really way out of line. But you know, I'm not like, 993 01:09:15.760 --> 01:09:18.680 oh, we have to argue about everything all the time. Like on 994 01:09:18.720 --> 01:09:23.479 this podcast, we're here to discuss stuff like this, right, So that's 995 01:09:23.520 --> 01:09:29.840 all I'm doing. But outside of this podcast, you know, and I 996 01:09:29.880 --> 01:09:32.880 think more generally, like when you see anybody in any type of media, 997 01:09:33.119 --> 01:09:39.119 I think, you know, it's probably best to avoid making too many assumptions 998 01:09:39.119 --> 01:09:43.640 about what that person's like outside of that context because context has a lot to 999 01:09:43.640 --> 01:09:46.000 do with like what we're going to say and what we're going to talk about. 1000 01:09:47.039 --> 01:09:48.920 You know, I think I think I'm really glad you said that. 1001 01:09:49.359 --> 01:09:51.760 I want to say more about the para socialness, but but I think also 1002 01:09:51.760 --> 01:09:56.279 what you're worth saying, Like there's a lot of assumptions made about you there, 1003 01:09:56.359 --> 01:09:59.239 but also about me, because I am not as good as you are. 1004 01:10:00.079 --> 01:10:04.239 I am. I also have enough experience with some of those folks from 1005 01:10:04.239 --> 01:10:09.960 poker and the like that I can be friendly, but I would not have 1006 01:10:10.000 --> 01:10:13.239 as wide arranged friend I definitely do not have as wide and intellectual range of 1007 01:10:13.239 --> 01:10:15.720 friends as Paul does. And I have family members who I have cut out 1008 01:10:15.720 --> 01:10:19.640 of my life because they believe things that I think are really harmful to me 1009 01:10:19.680 --> 01:10:25.079 and to others like me and to people I care about. And you know, 1010 01:10:25.119 --> 01:10:29.439 if you find me on places like Facebook or or TikTok, I tend 1011 01:10:29.479 --> 01:10:32.880 to be a lot more virulent about some of this stuff. I'm I'm I've 1012 01:10:32.920 --> 01:10:35.439 never silent seeing myself on these on these topics, but I think I am 1013 01:10:35.520 --> 01:10:39.720 very I think also just the roles that you and I play, that I 1014 01:10:39.760 --> 01:10:42.680 am the host, I'm the one that's trying to drive the conversation. You're 1015 01:10:42.680 --> 01:10:45.680 the guest. It puts you in a position often where you're more likely to 1016 01:10:45.720 --> 01:10:51.520 be the one taking a more strident position. But like, if you and 1017 01:10:51.560 --> 01:10:55.560 I are playing at a poker table and someone sits down with a maga hat 1018 01:10:55.600 --> 01:10:58.920 on, I'm probably much more likely to cause an issue than you are. 1019 01:10:59.479 --> 01:11:02.720 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I haven't seen one of those in a long 1020 01:11:02.800 --> 01:11:09.840 time. Yeah. I also just think, and here's the thing about feedback, 1021 01:11:09.840 --> 01:11:13.239 and because I've been thinking a lot about parasocial relationships, and if for 1022 01:11:13.279 --> 01:11:18.399 anyone who doesn't know that, that's the a parasocial relationship is a relationship with 1023 01:11:18.720 --> 01:11:25.439 like right now, because of social media, it's very easy to feel like 1024 01:11:25.560 --> 01:11:32.720 you have a very intense personal, intimate like connection with people where what they're 1025 01:11:32.760 --> 01:11:35.760 sending to you feels like something a friend would send to you, but they're 1026 01:11:35.760 --> 01:11:41.920 sending it to a thousand people or a million people. There's a whole thing 1027 01:11:41.920 --> 01:11:45.720 happening right now in the Taylor Swift fandom about who she's dating. That is 1028 01:11:45.720 --> 01:11:47.279 a very complex, nuanced issue and I'm not trying to get into it, 1029 01:11:47.359 --> 01:11:51.880 but it's raising a lot of questions for people about how do parasocial relationships work 1030 01:11:51.880 --> 01:11:56.119 and what is or is not okay? And again that's a whole complex situation. 1031 01:11:56.119 --> 01:11:58.680 I'm not making a comment on one or the other, but I do 1032 01:11:58.720 --> 01:12:00.439 think it's important to be I I have had to learn to be very careful 1033 01:12:00.520 --> 01:12:04.520 about you know, Like for a while, I definitely had a para social 1034 01:12:04.600 --> 01:12:09.800 relationship with Matt and Jeff, the host of the MCU of the MCU cast, 1035 01:12:10.319 --> 01:12:14.279 I happen to get to know them individually and found they're quite different than 1036 01:12:14.279 --> 01:12:15.720 the people who they are on their podcast in some ways not in others. 1037 01:12:17.039 --> 01:12:20.680 And similarly with other guests of mine and with me. I think it's just 1038 01:12:23.600 --> 01:12:28.119 as I love feedback, I love that interaction, but I just want to 1039 01:12:28.119 --> 01:12:30.000 ask people to be a bit careful, Like Paul, you handled it quite 1040 01:12:30.000 --> 01:12:34.319 well, but I just want to say it kind of like if you don't 1041 01:12:34.319 --> 01:12:38.680 like one of us personally, like that's fine. I don't think there's any 1042 01:12:38.680 --> 01:12:43.239 need to let us know, or if it is just doing it wrapped up 1043 01:12:43.279 --> 01:12:45.680 in an email where you're also asking for legitimate feedback, I'm happy to still 1044 01:12:45.680 --> 01:12:51.720 wind up giving you that feedback, but it felt pretty inappropriate to me. 1045 01:12:51.760 --> 01:12:55.079 I think there's a better way to phrase it, even for what you're trying 1046 01:12:55.079 --> 01:12:57.439 to say is that like one of us you think you could have gotten long 1047 01:12:57.439 --> 01:13:00.319 with better than the other, you know. And again, I don't know 1048 01:13:00.319 --> 01:13:02.640 what the right or the wrong thing is. And I'm not saying other people 1049 01:13:02.640 --> 01:13:05.000 like I don't want people who are thinking about writing it to this podcast people 1050 01:13:05.000 --> 01:13:08.880 like they have to censor themselves. But just I think it's a good reminder 1051 01:13:08.960 --> 01:13:14.319 of like, you know me and you know my other guests through what the 1052 01:13:14.359 --> 01:13:16.640 part of ourselves we put out, and just to remember that. That's that's 1053 01:13:18.319 --> 01:13:20.960 if not that I think anyone is being fake on here, it's I think 1054 01:13:20.960 --> 01:13:25.960 all of us have personas. All of us are the people we are at 1055 01:13:25.960 --> 01:13:28.079 work, and the people we are with our partners, and the people we 1056 01:13:28.119 --> 01:13:30.840 are with our friends, and those are different aspects of ourselves. And a 1057 01:13:30.840 --> 01:13:35.279 lot of psychological health is how integrated or non integrated those are. But if 1058 01:13:35.319 --> 01:13:39.680 you see only one of those, you're only seeing one of those. Yeah, 1059 01:13:39.720 --> 01:13:44.840 And to add to that or kind of expand a little like that doesn't 1060 01:13:44.880 --> 01:13:47.840 mean any of it's an act. It's just you know, what you do 1061 01:13:47.920 --> 01:13:53.239 in one context isn't necessarily the same thing that or what I do in one 1062 01:13:53.279 --> 01:13:57.720 top context. What one does in a given context isn't always going to be 1063 01:13:57.800 --> 01:14:00.880 the same thing that a person's going to do in another context. And there 1064 01:14:00.880 --> 01:14:05.760 are a lot of contexts, and like one podcast or one um you know, 1065 01:14:05.840 --> 01:14:12.359 YouTube channel or whatever isn't going to be isn't going to give a full 1066 01:14:12.680 --> 01:14:15.840 view of you know, someone's life. Basically, Yeah, I think, 1067 01:14:15.920 --> 01:14:20.039 like to me, when you spot outright hypocrisies, you know, like with 1068 01:14:20.039 --> 01:14:25.479 with you know, news coming out about Fox News hosts who you know believe 1069 01:14:25.600 --> 01:14:28.279 very different things they were saying, or like when you see like you know, 1070 01:14:28.760 --> 01:14:34.039 with with I don't know enough about the specific Taylor Swift situation to comment 1071 01:14:34.119 --> 01:14:38.479 on it directly, but I know that there are people who feel like the 1072 01:14:38.560 --> 01:14:45.039 choices she is making in her romantic life do go directly against the ideals that 1073 01:14:45.079 --> 01:14:47.600 she that she talks about when she speaks on stage and she sings on stage 1074 01:14:47.640 --> 01:14:51.159 and things like that, and so they see they see a hypocrisy there. 1075 01:14:53.000 --> 01:14:54.640 Again, I'm not comment on it, but I'm saying, I think, 1076 01:14:54.640 --> 01:14:57.920 okay, that that might be a place where where it's worth commenting on that. 1077 01:14:58.479 --> 01:15:00.800 Um But I think and answer, certainly, I want to open that 1078 01:15:00.840 --> 01:15:02.960 door of if you think that's happening with me, please go ahead and do 1079 01:15:03.000 --> 01:15:05.279 so. I think certainly sometimes I don't live up to my own ideals, 1080 01:15:05.279 --> 01:15:10.159 and I think that's worthwhile discussing. But just you know, I think it's 1081 01:15:10.159 --> 01:15:13.600 easy to forget that there are real people you're talking to and and just kind 1082 01:15:13.600 --> 01:15:18.079 of treat that appropriately. So let's get into the main meat of this idea. 1083 01:15:18.399 --> 01:15:24.000 Um, that's a very poor phrase. Give what else I've been talking 1084 01:15:24.000 --> 01:15:29.079 about today. UM, Let's let's get into the um, the tofu of 1085 01:15:29.119 --> 01:15:32.119 this, the chickpeas of it. Um, what's your how do you feel 1086 01:15:32.119 --> 01:15:36.560 about this? Because I, yeah, I have some thoughts from curious where 1087 01:15:36.560 --> 01:15:41.399 you would start. Right, So the first question I'm just going to answer 1088 01:15:41.439 --> 01:15:45.479 directly, who decided Superman is responsible for saving the world? And there's there's 1089 01:15:45.479 --> 01:15:48.760 a very clear answer to this, and the answer is Superman. Right, 1090 01:15:48.800 --> 01:15:51.760 he decided to be Superman. Now, you could say, okay, Joel 1091 01:15:53.000 --> 01:15:57.960 kind of pushed him in that direction, right, literally sent him in that 1092 01:15:58.039 --> 01:16:01.840 direction in a spaceship when he was an in and you could say that, 1093 01:16:02.119 --> 01:16:08.359 you know, the Kent kind of helped him become who he was and where 1094 01:16:08.359 --> 01:16:12.760 he wanted to do that. But there's agency there. Right, Superman decided 1095 01:16:12.920 --> 01:16:15.079 that he wanted to be Superman, that he didn't want to just be Clark 1096 01:16:15.159 --> 01:16:20.359 Kent. Right, he's both, but he decided, right, and Yeah, 1097 01:16:20.560 --> 01:16:24.840 could the government tell him that he has to do all these things? 1098 01:16:25.239 --> 01:16:28.560 No, I don't think that would be reasonable. You know, I think 1099 01:16:28.640 --> 01:16:32.560 he can make an agreement, Hey, I'm going to defend Earth so and 1100 01:16:32.960 --> 01:16:38.880 make sure that there's no military struggle so you can get rid of all the 1101 01:16:39.000 --> 01:16:44.279 nukes or whatever. Like that's the plot of one beginning in the Justice League, 1102 01:16:44.720 --> 01:16:47.399 an animated series, Right, So I think he can enter into an 1103 01:16:47.399 --> 01:16:51.600 agreement to do such and such. But yeah, if he wants to go 1104 01:16:51.640 --> 01:16:55.000 on a date with Lois Lane, he can go on a date with Lois 1105 01:16:55.079 --> 01:16:57.319 Lane. If he wants to save you from a car wreck, you can 1106 01:16:57.319 --> 01:17:00.279 save you from a car wreck. Now, if you actually had all of 1107 01:17:00.279 --> 01:17:04.520 the abilities of Superman, like that does sound quite overwhelming if you're trying. 1108 01:17:04.600 --> 01:17:10.560 I mean, every time you're not saving someone, someone's probably dying because you're 1109 01:17:10.600 --> 01:17:13.239 not saving them. But also, if you didn't exist, they would have 1110 01:17:13.279 --> 01:17:17.800 been dying anyway, So you know, in terms of what responsibility a person 1111 01:17:17.840 --> 01:17:23.039 has to act, Like, I don't really believe the whole great power comes 1112 01:17:23.079 --> 01:17:28.640 great responsibility, And I think that was kind of the takeaway from the podcast. 1113 01:17:28.680 --> 01:17:31.039 But that doesn't mean I mean sort of, Yeah, with great power 1114 01:17:31.119 --> 01:17:34.640 comes great power, right, I mean that's power is power, and it's 1115 01:17:34.680 --> 01:17:39.439 up to you what you do with it. And there can be coercive forces 1116 01:17:39.800 --> 01:17:44.119 that try and get you to do something, but like to me, it's 1117 01:17:44.159 --> 01:17:46.239 just like, yeah, if you can do something about it, like why 1118 01:17:46.279 --> 01:17:53.079 wouldn't you, right, and yeah, that's your choice. Yeah, I 1119 01:17:53.079 --> 01:17:55.560 think that's a really good way to talk about it, because to me, 1120 01:17:55.600 --> 01:18:00.399 in some ways, the great power great responsibility question is far too bindy for 1121 01:18:00.479 --> 01:18:02.600 me. And I feel like that's where like, on the surface, Sean, 1122 01:18:02.640 --> 01:18:05.680 I'm agreeing with you, but I also fundamentally disagree with a lot of 1123 01:18:05.680 --> 01:18:09.960 what you say. And I think that's it's like, yes, I think 1124 01:18:11.319 --> 01:18:15.159 that idea that you have to do so becomes really problematic, and I mean 1125 01:18:15.239 --> 01:18:18.119 it's a fundamental act of agency and can become little slavery at that point. 1126 01:18:18.560 --> 01:18:24.640 And I can say I'm not superman by any means, but as someone who've 1127 01:18:24.640 --> 01:18:28.600 worked in the nonprofit industry for most of my career. This is a very 1128 01:18:28.600 --> 01:18:31.239 real issue. And when I was getting started in the nineties and early two 1129 01:18:31.279 --> 01:18:38.439 thousands, there was a definite like ethos of Wait, you're going to a 1130 01:18:38.479 --> 01:18:41.600 movie when you could be doing one more social justice action. Wait, you're 1131 01:18:41.640 --> 01:18:45.279 like spending money on this thing for yourself when you could be donating it to 1132 01:18:45.319 --> 01:18:48.319 a cause, Like that's that self you're not being You're not. There was 1133 01:18:48.359 --> 01:18:54.079 almost a kind of machismo of who's the most dedicated to helping others. And 1134 01:18:54.199 --> 01:18:57.560 also no one in the industry who'd been working there for more than five years 1135 01:18:57.960 --> 01:19:01.159 right because we were all burning out, because that's simply not sustainable. And 1136 01:19:03.000 --> 01:19:08.680 so I think, yeah, personal heres how I kind of square the circle? 1137 01:19:10.239 --> 01:19:13.000 For me? It has to be, in the end, a question 1138 01:19:13.039 --> 01:19:18.640 of personal agency. I think people need to decide for themselves, choose their 1139 01:19:18.640 --> 01:19:21.399 battles, what are the causes they're going to donate to, what are the 1140 01:19:21.399 --> 01:19:25.359 things that they're going to spend their time working on, what are the things 1141 01:19:25.399 --> 01:19:32.960 they're going to not And yes, I do think that trying to fix every 1142 01:19:32.960 --> 01:19:36.479 single situation that you could is going to wind it be incredibly deleterious to your 1143 01:19:36.479 --> 01:19:43.119 health, probably, But I also think there's nothing wrong with other people encouraging 1144 01:19:43.119 --> 01:19:46.960 people to help when they can. And here's where it comes down to me, 1145 01:19:47.039 --> 01:19:51.520 And here's kind of it's the flip side of that responsibility. Responsibility implies 1146 01:19:54.439 --> 01:19:58.880 coercion. To me, it's not that I want people to be coerced to 1147 01:19:58.920 --> 01:20:04.159 do good things. It's that I am a person who feels like I should 1148 01:20:04.199 --> 01:20:09.880 do good things, and that affects my personal decision making. And if you're 1149 01:20:09.920 --> 01:20:14.000 not, I'm not going to want someone to force you to. I just 1150 01:20:14.119 --> 01:20:18.159 might think you're kind of a jackass. And and here's where I do think 1151 01:20:18.199 --> 01:20:25.000 that there is that level of responsibility understood in a very different way because and 1152 01:20:25.039 --> 01:20:27.760 here's I think, Sean, where I would most disagree with you, And 1153 01:20:27.800 --> 01:20:30.119 this is something Paul you and I might disagree one as well. But like 1154 01:20:30.560 --> 01:20:34.560 you talk about how kind of you you're a white male and that you have 1155 01:20:34.720 --> 01:20:40.319 that power, but is that your responsibility? And to me, I think 1156 01:20:40.319 --> 01:20:43.239 the thing that you're missing that I think a lot of people miss in these 1157 01:20:43.239 --> 01:20:48.680 conversations is that someone being a white male and thus having the power to help 1158 01:20:49.479 --> 01:20:55.000 and other people not being white male, or whatever the position of power is, 1159 01:20:55.439 --> 01:20:59.880 and thus being in a bad situation that they could use help. Those 1160 01:21:00.159 --> 01:21:08.000 things are not disconnected. They're often very connected. And often the amount of 1161 01:21:08.920 --> 01:21:13.520 power or privilege or the word that I think has gotten very overused and misunderstood. 1162 01:21:13.600 --> 01:21:17.439 But you know, whatever word you want to use is directly related to 1163 01:21:17.439 --> 01:21:20.079 the people who don't have that, who are having problems that you might be 1164 01:21:20.119 --> 01:21:24.960 able to fix. And I'll give a very personal example for me. I 1165 01:21:25.039 --> 01:21:27.479 am white, I'm not male, but I'm mail presenting. I get a 1166 01:21:27.479 --> 01:21:30.439 lot of male privilege. But I'll talk about specifically the fact that I'm Christian, 1167 01:21:31.119 --> 01:21:35.960 and as a Christian, I get an awful lot of good things in 1168 01:21:36.000 --> 01:21:40.119 this world. A lot of people don't get. No One questions when I 1169 01:21:40.159 --> 01:21:43.600 want to take my holiday is off. No one thinks that when I mentioned 1170 01:21:43.600 --> 01:21:46.000 my holiday is or that I'm doing something for them, it's weird. I 1171 01:21:46.119 --> 01:21:50.399 get to participate in the uber culture in the way an awful lot of people 1172 01:21:50.479 --> 01:21:56.079 don't, and I don't spend my time having the uber culture remind me that 1173 01:21:56.119 --> 01:22:00.239 I don't fit in the way someone who isn't Christian. But you know, 1174 01:22:00.319 --> 01:22:03.600 here's Christmas music for one twelfth of a year, if not more, does 1175 01:22:03.680 --> 01:22:10.319 all the time. So and I don't feel bad about being a Christian. 1176 01:22:10.359 --> 01:22:14.359 It's something I choose and it's something I believe in, even though I greatly 1177 01:22:14.399 --> 01:22:17.960 disagree with a lot of people who claim to be Christians and do what I 1178 01:22:17.960 --> 01:22:24.680 see is terrible things. In that name the ethical choice, the ethical causes 1179 01:22:24.720 --> 01:22:30.960 that I tend to focus on most are things like reproductive justice, queer rights, 1180 01:22:30.279 --> 01:22:36.239 trans rights, and that's in large part because it is people like me 1181 01:22:36.960 --> 01:22:41.399 who are often the loudest and doing the most to take away those rights from 1182 01:22:41.439 --> 01:22:45.880 people. It is often people in the name of Christ attacking you know, 1183 01:22:45.960 --> 01:22:50.239 abortion rights, or attacking queer people who are attacking trans people. And so 1184 01:22:50.399 --> 01:22:57.359 for me, I see a direct correlation between if I go into a room 1185 01:22:57.399 --> 01:23:01.199 and say, as a Christian, this is wrong, there's an awful lot 1186 01:23:01.239 --> 01:23:04.279 of people who will listen to me in the way they wouldn't if someone said 1187 01:23:04.319 --> 01:23:06.960 as an atheist or as a Jew, or as a Muslim or whatever. 1188 01:23:08.199 --> 01:23:11.079 Yeah, they just call me a godless heathen, and yeah, exactly, 1189 01:23:11.359 --> 01:23:13.680 Whereas if I can quote the Bible at them, they're going to pay more 1190 01:23:13.720 --> 01:23:17.760 attention. So the nature of my being Christian gives me that power, and 1191 01:23:17.800 --> 01:23:23.720 there are people who are directly hurt by Christians, and so yeah, I 1192 01:23:23.760 --> 01:23:29.239 do feel like those two things are intrinsically linked in the same way that like, 1193 01:23:29.319 --> 01:23:31.520 yeah, I benefit an awful lot by the fact that people like me 1194 01:23:32.079 --> 01:23:36.600 took over this country. And so I do feel there's a native restaurant in 1195 01:23:36.680 --> 01:23:42.359 our town, Owambie, I think I'm pronouncing it right, Owomgee, perhaps 1196 01:23:43.239 --> 01:23:46.640 run. You know, they only serve ingredients that grew here before Columbus came, 1197 01:23:46.760 --> 01:23:50.439 and they employ all Indigenous folks and do an awful lot to support Indigenous 1198 01:23:50.479 --> 01:23:54.239 businesses and things like that. I go out of my way to try to 1199 01:23:54.239 --> 01:23:58.680 support that business because I feel like, yeah, I am the beneficiary of 1200 01:23:58.720 --> 01:24:02.800 all the things that were done to do horrible things to indigenous people. Do 1201 01:24:02.880 --> 01:24:05.880 I think that means every white person has to do that, or that there 1202 01:24:05.880 --> 01:24:10.560 should be a law compelling it. No. I do think we should have 1203 01:24:10.640 --> 01:24:14.800 laws set up to address injustices. But to me, that's not about helping, 1204 01:24:14.840 --> 01:24:17.560 that's about making a society function. I think that's a fairly different question. 1205 01:24:18.319 --> 01:24:21.079 But I promise we'll get to the end of this rant and let let 1206 01:24:21.079 --> 01:24:24.640 Paul jump in. But for me, I think that's where it kind of 1207 01:24:24.640 --> 01:24:30.159 comes down to, is that I don't I think responsibility is the locus of 1208 01:24:30.239 --> 01:24:34.279 responsibility is your own internal discussion about when and where you're going to get involved. 1209 01:24:34.640 --> 01:24:38.560 And I think other people can contribute to that the way they can contribute, 1210 01:24:38.560 --> 01:24:42.560 you know, like every person decides what level of you know, are 1211 01:24:42.560 --> 01:24:44.640 they gonna lie to other people? But other people can be like, hey, 1212 01:24:44.720 --> 01:24:48.760 lying is bad, and you can make your decisions about it. So 1213 01:24:48.800 --> 01:24:53.000 I don't want to live in a world where people are compelled to act upon 1214 01:24:53.039 --> 01:24:55.920 the power they have to do good. But yeah, I'm probably going to 1215 01:24:56.000 --> 01:24:59.520 judge you based on it and with some understanding of like I don't know, 1216 01:24:59.560 --> 01:25:01.800 you're circum dances and all that, but all the once is aside, All 1217 01:25:01.880 --> 01:25:05.840 right, mand over go. Yeah, So I think you make a really 1218 01:25:05.840 --> 01:25:15.399 good point about the difference kind of between I guess relativistic power that comes at 1219 01:25:15.439 --> 01:25:18.319 the expense of others. Right, there's power you can have because other people 1220 01:25:18.399 --> 01:25:23.359 don't have power, and I think that's that's largely that's a social phenomenon, 1221 01:25:23.680 --> 01:25:29.359 right, And then there's like Superman's power doesn't make other people less powerful. 1222 01:25:29.439 --> 01:25:33.479 I mean I guess by comparison, they're less powerful, right, Like the 1223 01:25:33.600 --> 01:25:40.000 military is less powerful because there's Superman, right, just in terms of by 1224 01:25:40.039 --> 01:25:45.399 comparison, but he's not actually taking power or resources away from anybody else. 1225 01:25:45.479 --> 01:25:49.680 And in terms of things like like privilege, which again is a word that 1226 01:25:49.720 --> 01:25:55.159 I've had thoughts about, but I think if if we're just going to kind 1227 01:25:55.159 --> 01:26:00.880 of use it hand wavy, like there are resources there are planet has limited 1228 01:26:00.920 --> 01:26:06.560 resources, right, And social power is a thing, and often one person 1229 01:26:06.600 --> 01:26:11.520 having more of it I means someone else has less of it. It doesn't 1230 01:26:11.560 --> 01:26:15.399 necessarily have to be that way. I think there are other ways that society 1231 01:26:15.479 --> 01:26:19.319 could be constructed, and that people could live with one another and with the 1232 01:26:19.359 --> 01:26:26.720 other inhabitants of the planet. That you know, things don't have to be 1233 01:26:26.800 --> 01:26:30.560 a zero sum game. But in many ways things are a zero sum game, 1234 01:26:30.640 --> 01:26:33.039 right, Like they don't have to be, but that's how some things 1235 01:26:33.079 --> 01:26:39.119 do function. And when they do, then when your power comes at the 1236 01:26:39.199 --> 01:26:42.159 expense of someone else, is not because you've taken it, but because you've 1237 01:26:42.199 --> 01:26:45.680 been given it. I do think there is something to be said for like, 1238 01:26:45.880 --> 01:26:50.520 yeah, maybe maybe you should give some of that back right to make 1239 01:26:50.600 --> 01:26:55.319 things equal as opposed to like, you know, which is completely different from 1240 01:26:55.319 --> 01:27:00.279 like being born with exceptional intellect or strength or whatever, where it's like that 1241 01:27:00.319 --> 01:27:03.399 doesn't come at anyone else's expense. That's just a natural characteristic of you. 1242 01:27:04.079 --> 01:27:09.119 And yeah, do what you will with that. To me, I think 1243 01:27:09.159 --> 01:27:12.439 to kind of summarize what I was saying in the first place, and I 1244 01:27:12.479 --> 01:27:15.920 think a lot of the gist of what you were saying, Matthew. You 1245 01:27:15.920 --> 01:27:17.720 know, at the end of it, it's like it's your choice, but 1246 01:27:17.920 --> 01:27:21.800 you know, I may disagree with your choice. Yeah, Like in many 1247 01:27:21.800 --> 01:27:28.159 ways, to me, it's just about compassion. It's about like like to 1248 01:27:28.199 --> 01:27:30.279 me, that's what the movie was trying to get at more than anything is. 1249 01:27:30.279 --> 01:27:34.359 It's trying to be like, like, I think so much of so 1250 01:27:34.479 --> 01:27:39.239 much of the ways people choose not to act, and by the way I 1251 01:27:39.279 --> 01:27:43.039 do like the Martin mcking in particular, had had a lot of great things 1252 01:27:43.079 --> 01:27:45.119 to say about this. But I do hold to some idea, the idea 1253 01:27:45.159 --> 01:27:50.079 of like choosing to do nothing is a vote in support of the status quo, 1254 01:27:50.239 --> 01:27:55.319 like and that's you know, not that like that I think idea can 1255 01:27:55.399 --> 01:27:57.439 take out extreme but like that, there's something to be said for like, 1256 01:27:57.880 --> 01:28:02.199 when you are in a system of justice, it is not necessarily your your 1257 01:28:02.880 --> 01:28:08.560 duty to rescue everyone from injustice, but you're participating in that system, and 1258 01:28:08.640 --> 01:28:13.720 so to some extent you're you know, you're giving more power to that system 1259 01:28:13.720 --> 01:28:19.640 without challenging it. Um. But to me, what like a movie like 1260 01:28:19.680 --> 01:28:28.720 Guardians of the Galaxy does is to say people do think people participate in systems 1261 01:28:28.760 --> 01:28:33.039 that do terrible things to animals far out of their sight, and we want 1262 01:28:33.079 --> 01:28:35.279 you to have to look at it. We want you to have to look 1263 01:28:35.319 --> 01:28:40.399 at what goes into the shampoo that you buy that was tested on animals. 1264 01:28:40.399 --> 01:28:43.039 We want you to have to look into, you know, all these kinds 1265 01:28:43.039 --> 01:28:47.079 of things. And I think often that's that's that's what a lot of the 1266 01:28:47.199 --> 01:28:50.000 you know, good movies that help to make a point are about. Is 1267 01:28:50.000 --> 01:28:57.640 about helping people to see that who are the people who are suffering? And 1268 01:28:59.039 --> 01:29:00.840 is this something you can have more compassion for than you thought? You know, 1269 01:29:00.960 --> 01:29:03.840 in a like you know, telling us when someone has just like oh 1270 01:29:03.920 --> 01:29:08.359 all immigrants, are this, all gays or this or whatever, telling a 1271 01:29:08.399 --> 01:29:12.840 story about that person in a way that draws empathy and compassion. Should I 1272 01:29:12.880 --> 01:29:16.159 hope, make it harder for someone to participate in a system that does harm 1273 01:29:16.199 --> 01:29:19.800 to those people? Not always, but often. And I do think that's 1274 01:29:19.800 --> 01:29:23.840 a part of how I probably judge a person. And I think that's that's 1275 01:29:23.840 --> 01:29:29.119 also what I would look at this is I would say, if you if 1276 01:29:29.159 --> 01:29:30.800 every time you walk into at you know, Sean, did you give this 1277 01:29:30.840 --> 01:29:32.880 one example? And Sean, again, I'm not calling you out in particular, 1278 01:29:32.920 --> 01:29:36.359 I'm just using the examples you talk to. You know. I have 1279 01:29:36.399 --> 01:29:40.680 been in stores where someone yelled at the person for saying they have to wear 1280 01:29:40.720 --> 01:29:44.439 a mask and I said something. I've been in stores where I didn't and 1281 01:29:45.239 --> 01:29:46.920 sometimes because I didn't feel safe in the situation. Other times it was just 1282 01:29:46.960 --> 01:29:51.000 because I need to get back in my car and go. And sometimes I 1283 01:29:51.039 --> 01:29:54.960 spoke up, sometimes I didn't. Should I have spoken up more? Probably? 1284 01:29:55.079 --> 01:29:57.920 Should I have spoken up every single time? Maybe? I'm not sure. 1285 01:30:00.680 --> 01:30:03.880 But if you're a person who just is comfortable never doing that, there's 1286 01:30:03.880 --> 01:30:06.520 a part of me that's gonna wonder, like, well, what as you 1287 01:30:06.520 --> 01:30:10.199 said, Like you said Paul, like if you can help, why wouldn't 1288 01:30:10.199 --> 01:30:14.359 you? And I on some level, I feel like if you can go 1289 01:30:14.439 --> 01:30:18.960 through the world seeing suffering around you and never feel a desire to Like, 1290 01:30:20.800 --> 01:30:25.520 it doesn't feel good to me to know that I am doing really well while 1291 01:30:25.520 --> 01:30:28.880 other people are doing really badly and I'm not working to change that in any 1292 01:30:28.880 --> 01:30:31.520 way. And I think that's where again there's the internal responsibility again comes into 1293 01:30:31.600 --> 01:30:33.760 me. It's like it's to me, it's not it should be responsibility. 1294 01:30:33.760 --> 01:30:38.560 It should be I would hope people have some sense of compassion and some sense 1295 01:30:38.600 --> 01:30:41.720 of empathy of like, hey, other people are suffering, and maybe I 1296 01:30:41.720 --> 01:30:47.039 can do something to fix that. Yeah, and you know, you can't 1297 01:30:47.159 --> 01:30:51.000 do everything all the time, right, but I think it's worth asking yourself 1298 01:30:51.039 --> 01:30:56.159 like what can you do? You know? And is and by what can 1299 01:30:56.199 --> 01:31:00.279 you do? It's not even just like physically possibly, like what can you 1300 01:31:00.279 --> 01:31:03.720 bring yourself to do? You know? Yeah? Yeah, like the mask 1301 01:31:03.840 --> 01:31:11.600 situation, Like I don't I actually haven't really been in that situation interestingly, 1302 01:31:11.720 --> 01:31:15.640 but like, um, just don't go out anywhere near as much as But 1303 01:31:15.800 --> 01:31:19.600 also like you know, when the whole thing started, I was in California 1304 01:31:19.720 --> 01:31:24.680 and like, yeah, you're not going to get away with that in California, 1305 01:31:24.760 --> 01:31:28.279 you know, what I mean, like, it's it's just the balance 1306 01:31:28.479 --> 01:31:31.279 of things was a little different, and and by the time I moved to 1307 01:31:31.359 --> 01:31:38.520 Vegas, like basically people were just like whatever. Um. But I think 1308 01:31:39.600 --> 01:31:43.039 what I would probably end up doing was I don't know if I would say 1309 01:31:43.079 --> 01:31:47.800 something, you know, but I would probably physically align myself in a way 1310 01:31:47.840 --> 01:31:54.520 that like if they that hopefully communicated to the person who was getting screamed at, 1311 01:31:54.560 --> 01:31:58.800 that like there was someone physically in their corner, and like if things 1312 01:31:58.840 --> 01:32:03.039 looked like they were going to ask a I'm quite certain that I would intervene. 1313 01:32:03.720 --> 01:32:08.159 Yeah, you know, and you're also because yeah, go ahead, 1314 01:32:08.560 --> 01:32:13.600 like you're someone who you know both is you know, you are tall and 1315 01:32:13.640 --> 01:32:15.439 you look able bodied, and you also have quite a lot of martial arts 1316 01:32:15.520 --> 01:32:19.199 training. I would say, for me, how I react probably is going 1317 01:32:19.239 --> 01:32:23.560 to be enlargely dependent on am I standing on two legs remind my wheelchair? 1318 01:32:23.760 --> 01:32:26.920 Sure? Um, but I know certainly that there were times where yeah, 1319 01:32:26.920 --> 01:32:29.640 I didn't feel safe challenging, but at least went up to the person afterwards. 1320 01:32:29.640 --> 01:32:30.359 I was like, Okay, I just want to know I really appreciate 1321 01:32:30.399 --> 01:32:33.279 you, like working to help make the store safer. You know, yeah, 1322 01:32:33.359 --> 01:32:38.760 yeah, And that's that's another way of of trying to support someone basically, 1323 01:32:39.279 --> 01:32:41.720 and I think that's the other key here, And I think this is 1324 01:32:41.720 --> 01:32:45.439 something often the great power great responsibility lacks. And this also goes back to 1325 01:32:45.479 --> 01:32:50.600 the pair of social relationship. On a general level, I am comfortable saying 1326 01:32:53.199 --> 01:32:55.920 the more power you have, the more I want you to be using that 1327 01:32:56.000 --> 01:33:01.800 power. Um and particularly if your power is linked to the injustices like you 1328 01:33:01.840 --> 01:33:08.359 know me, Like, if you're a billionaire, you could give me an 1329 01:33:08.359 --> 01:33:12.079 extreme, extreme corner case. But for the most part, if you are 1330 01:33:12.119 --> 01:33:15.720 a billionaire, there are probably people who you are paying to do work that 1331 01:33:15.760 --> 01:33:19.920 has helped to generate that money that you have. And my first question is 1332 01:33:19.960 --> 01:33:23.640 like, well, could you have paid them more and not be a billionaire? 1333 01:33:23.760 --> 01:33:27.119 I'll give you the corner case. Sure. The corner case is like 1334 01:33:27.199 --> 01:33:31.239 JK Rolling. Like JK. Rowling made a ton of money from writing. 1335 01:33:31.760 --> 01:33:36.439 That's almost the only thing you can do where the fact that you make a 1336 01:33:36.479 --> 01:33:42.800 ton of money isn't basically built upon the fact that other people were underpaid. 1337 01:33:44.000 --> 01:33:46.880 And then what are you doing with that? Well, we know what she's 1338 01:33:46.920 --> 01:33:51.039 doing with it, right right, And like I think said that's like and 1339 01:33:51.159 --> 01:33:54.880 even they're like, I don't know anything about the publishing deals and like the 1340 01:33:54.960 --> 01:33:58.079 editors and all that. But you're right, that's probably the closest you can 1341 01:33:58.079 --> 01:34:00.760 get. I know, people would hold up someone like Oprah or like, 1342 01:34:00.800 --> 01:34:01.600 you know, other personalities, but even there, it's like, Okay, 1343 01:34:01.600 --> 01:34:03.680 well, how much of the people who work under her like getting paid and 1344 01:34:03.720 --> 01:34:08.279 all that kind of stuff. But yeah, point point being, but yeah, 1345 01:34:08.279 --> 01:34:12.640 it still it's about what are you doing with all of that? And 1346 01:34:12.720 --> 01:34:14.760 that was a tangent to the main point I was going to make, which 1347 01:34:14.760 --> 01:34:20.800 I've now completely lost, but what I do it all the time? Oh 1348 01:34:20.880 --> 01:34:26.399 but just like yeah again, I think here's the thing. I think the 1349 01:34:26.399 --> 01:34:30.520 flip side of this, and this is the parasocial relationship, is that reminder 1350 01:34:30.640 --> 01:34:34.359 of I never know what someone else's battle is, you know, and so 1351 01:34:35.199 --> 01:34:40.159 I you know, I might look at someone who looks physically imposing and think 1352 01:34:40.199 --> 01:34:43.720 to myself, oh, yeah, that person should have been involved. I 1353 01:34:43.720 --> 01:34:46.239 don't know if they got you know, violence done to them as a kid 1354 01:34:46.319 --> 01:34:48.720 or something like that, or for some other reason like doing that is just 1355 01:34:48.760 --> 01:34:53.479 not something that they're psychologically or capable of, or maybe they have like actually 1356 01:34:54.560 --> 01:34:57.479 much worse physical situation than I can see it all the glance. Yeah, 1357 01:34:58.119 --> 01:35:01.800 I'm very comfortable talking about in the aggregate. I think it is better for 1358 01:35:01.840 --> 01:35:05.039 people in these kind of situations to help in these kind of ways. But 1359 01:35:05.159 --> 01:35:10.039 I think again, with that parasocial relationship, when it becomes I only see 1360 01:35:10.039 --> 01:35:12.720 a small part of this person's life, but I know they could be doing 1361 01:35:12.720 --> 01:35:15.319 this help and they're not, like I think happens with heroes a lot. 1362 01:35:15.800 --> 01:35:19.039 I do think that's where I can draw the line of being like, I 1363 01:35:19.119 --> 01:35:23.680 want to encourage people to make what I think are better choices, but I 1364 01:35:23.760 --> 01:35:28.359 want to be very careful judging anyone individual's choice when I don't really know the 1365 01:35:28.359 --> 01:35:34.000 whole story. Absolutely absolutely all right, Well, I think I can make 1366 01:35:34.000 --> 01:35:39.199 the individual choice with the power that I have to act responsibly towards our schedules. 1367 01:35:39.239 --> 01:35:43.239 And wrap this conversation up, We're going to have a quick conversation for 1368 01:35:43.319 --> 01:35:46.640 the patreons about a completely different topic, but one that is very dear to 1369 01:35:46.680 --> 01:35:51.840 Paul and I his heart, Michael Keaton and Batman. But inclosing, Paul, 1370 01:35:51.880 --> 01:35:56.479 for those who are not patrons, where can they find you? Yeah, 1371 01:35:56.520 --> 01:36:00.760 I'm Zen Madman in a bunch of places. Basically the only way I 1372 01:36:00.760 --> 01:36:06.439 interact with the world very much these days is tweeting about chess. And you 1373 01:36:06.520 --> 01:36:11.720 know, so I'm I'm send Madman on Twitter and Twitch. I'll stream again 1374 01:36:11.840 --> 01:36:15.239 someday. And you know, I have a bunch of YouTube channels, but 1375 01:36:15.439 --> 01:36:18.079 I haven't made a video in like a year, so that's fair, that's 1376 01:36:18.079 --> 01:36:23.479 fair, And I am Matthew Fox. You can find me under the Ethical 1377 01:36:23.520 --> 01:36:26.439 Panda. I kind of have my uh. If you go to the Ethical 1378 01:36:26.479 --> 01:36:29.960 Panda, you'll find both this and my Star Wars podcast, Star Wars Universe 1379 01:36:30.000 --> 01:36:32.720 podcast. Lots of great content there, and most importantly, all of our 1380 01:36:32.880 --> 01:36:35.520 ways to give us feedback. I promised, Like I said, I'm trying 1381 01:36:35.520 --> 01:36:38.520 to be a lot better. Juno is gonna be a crazy month, but 1382 01:36:38.600 --> 01:36:41.800 starting in July, we're gonna be a lot more regular with feedback. Get 1383 01:36:41.840 --> 01:36:44.479 getting back to on our regular basis. There's a lot that was between coming 1384 01:36:44.479 --> 01:36:46.159 in. Send us email, send us tweets, find me on TikTok, 1385 01:36:46.199 --> 01:36:48.399 find me on Twitter, let me know what you think. We'd love to 1386 01:36:48.439 --> 01:36:55.319 hear it. One quick note, Paul didn't hear it, but there's an 1387 01:36:56.159 --> 01:36:58.960 I am right now kind of in two worlds. This podcast was part of 1388 01:36:59.000 --> 01:37:01.319 Stranded Panda for a while. I'm still very connected to the Stranded Pan of 1389 01:37:01.319 --> 01:37:04.079 folks and still going to appear on a much of the Stranded Pan of podcasts, 1390 01:37:04.479 --> 01:37:09.319 but these podcasts are now officially part of the True Story FM family of 1391 01:37:09.359 --> 01:37:13.000 podcasts, where you'll often find a Marvel Movie minute, among other things. 1392 01:37:13.479 --> 01:37:15.960 A whole bunch of us got together and each made statements about how we're in 1393 01:37:15.960 --> 01:37:19.760 support of the writers strike that's happening right now that imagine will still be happening 1394 01:37:19.800 --> 01:37:23.760 by the time the sayers if it isn't great, but you will probably have 1395 01:37:23.800 --> 01:37:26.760 heard an ad where my voice along with others, talks about why we're supporting 1396 01:37:26.760 --> 01:37:31.680 the writer's strike. So just a reminder that we wouldn't have these interesting things 1397 01:37:31.720 --> 01:37:36.479 to talk about if writers didn't write interesting scenarios for us to talk about. 1398 01:37:36.800 --> 01:37:40.399 And you've got to be good at it, as we said, you know, 1399 01:37:40.439 --> 01:37:43.399 if the writer's just saying like, hey, here's the point, generally 1400 01:37:43.399 --> 01:37:45.159 there's not much to talk about. It's the best writing, I think is 1401 01:37:45.239 --> 01:37:49.600 ones that give some nuance and give some room and either make a point or 1402 01:37:50.000 --> 01:37:55.960 often I think just leave you with a question. The fact that, and 1403 01:37:56.000 --> 01:38:00.560 again this is kind of the basis of this whole podcast was Paul and I 1404 01:38:00.680 --> 01:38:03.880 both watched the movie Civil War, in which there is a fundamental conflict between 1405 01:38:03.920 --> 01:38:10.000 two characters and came out disagreeing on which character is right and that. You 1406 01:38:10.039 --> 01:38:12.960 know, I think most people are more on team cap side, but there's 1407 01:38:13.079 --> 01:38:16.159 good arguments for men on both. That's phenomenal writing to be able to write 1408 01:38:16.199 --> 01:38:18.680 a movie where people can come out of that doing that. So again, 1409 01:38:18.760 --> 01:38:21.600 just support writers. Writers are awesome. A I will never do it. 1410 01:38:21.680 --> 01:38:26.439 The thing that's kind of my you know, I think responsibility we have is 1411 01:38:26.479 --> 01:38:29.479 not cross that pick at line and don't watch AI stuff and all the rest. 1412 01:38:30.000 --> 01:38:32.600 So you heard that. Patrons stick around for a little while longer. 1413 01:38:32.640 --> 01:38:38.600 As for everybody else we have spoken, I'll co sign all that, except 1414 01:38:38.600 --> 01:38:44.159 for the anti robot bigotry. I mean, robot writers need to get paid 1415 01:38:44.560 --> 01:38:48.359 as well once they exist. But right now what we have is a pail 1416 01:38:48.359 --> 01:38:54.800 limitation. Yes, yes, robot writers do. Robot plagiarizers do not. 1417 01:39:00.399 --> 01:39:04.199 In a shim