WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:05.200 Today, we continue our conversation with doctor Craig Keener on the Bible Backgrounds Podcast, 2 00:00:05.480 --> 00:00:10.720 looking at the Mind of the Spirit, Paul's approach to transformed thinking. 3 00:00:16.440 --> 00:00:20.519 Greetings in the Lord. This is the Bible Backgrounds Podcast with doctor Craig Keener. 4 00:00:20.879 --> 00:00:25.920 Doctor Keener is the FM and Ada Thompson Professor of Biblical Studies at Asbury 5 00:00:25.960 --> 00:00:30.800 Theological Seminary here in Wilmore, Kentucky. Doctor Keener, good to see you 6 00:00:30.839 --> 00:00:35.359 again. And you notice I have my Asbury shirt on. So we're advertising 7 00:00:35.560 --> 00:00:41.479 for Asbury with my shirt because they're letting us use their studio. Yes, 8 00:00:41.600 --> 00:00:45.520 graciously. Well, I think they like you around here. How many years 9 00:00:45.520 --> 00:00:49.560 have you been working at Asbury now? Yeah, Yeah, they really like 10 00:00:49.640 --> 00:00:55.240 having you and of course enjoy all the breath of research and the speaking ministry 11 00:00:55.280 --> 00:00:58.600 that you have to the churches around the globe. I think that's part of 12 00:00:58.640 --> 00:01:03.159 their mission and your mission. And so there's kindred spirits there and Asbray is 13 00:01:03.159 --> 00:01:04.560 a great school to come and study. If people want to come and study 14 00:01:04.599 --> 00:01:11.719 under you, it's a good seminary to come to. Now. Perhaps you 15 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:17.680 know doctor Keener from the Bible Backgrounds Commentary that he's written or other commentaries. 16 00:01:18.159 --> 00:01:19.200 How many do you have out there? Now? You've got Acts, You've 17 00:01:19.200 --> 00:01:25.959 got Matthew, You've got a bunch. Yeah. Yeah, there's thirty four 18 00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:32.120 books, I think, not including the ones in process. But Matthew a 19 00:01:32.120 --> 00:01:38.079 big version and a small version, John a big version of small version, 20 00:01:38.120 --> 00:01:42.719 the two volume Win sixteen hundred pages, and that shorter Win, and then 21 00:01:45.480 --> 00:01:49.680 Acts the four volume version of which this is the first volume, and then 22 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:57.480 the one volume version with Cambridge, and big and small one with Galatians, 23 00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:01.719 a small one with it is going to be working on the Romans, a 24 00:02:01.719 --> 00:02:05.359 big one right now, but I'm doing a big one on Mark instead at 25 00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:13.759 the moment, small one in First and Second Corinthians Revelation. First Peter having 26 00:02:13.919 --> 00:02:16.879 time to get to the other seat. I don't blame you, given the 27 00:02:17.240 --> 00:02:22.319 size and scope of your research and how how deep you go. It really 28 00:02:22.400 --> 00:02:28.960 is impressive. You're writing and even impresses non Christian New Testament scholars, so 29 00:02:29.000 --> 00:02:34.000 they you have earned their respect, which there's there's something about in the Bible 30 00:02:34.039 --> 00:02:37.719 about earning the respective outsiders. So I think you've done a great job. 31 00:02:37.960 --> 00:02:42.039 First Thessalonians, Paul talks about winning the respect to Outsiders. I would love 32 00:02:42.080 --> 00:02:47.319 to write a comment you for Sesslonian. Yes, Now, in this season 33 00:02:47.599 --> 00:02:52.439 of the Bible Backgrounds podcast, we're looking at this book right here, the 34 00:02:52.439 --> 00:02:55.479 Mind of the Spirit, and we're going to begin jumping in. Now. 35 00:02:55.919 --> 00:03:00.960 It was last week we sort of were introducing the subject, but now we're 36 00:03:00.960 --> 00:03:06.319 going to jump right on in. And for systematic theologians like myself, you 37 00:03:06.319 --> 00:03:09.800 know, we're interested in the study of salvation or to salute us the order 38 00:03:09.800 --> 00:03:15.680 of Salvation, and you sort of have structured your work along similar outlines, 39 00:03:15.879 --> 00:03:23.240 and your first chapter is on the Corrupted Mind. So let me ask you 40 00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:30.000 why is why is it that this is a good starting point for your study 41 00:03:30.159 --> 00:03:36.719 on Paul's view of the mind. Certainly where Paul starts in Romans, but 42 00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:40.159 it's also nicer. I learned this from Luke X. It's nicer to and 43 00:03:40.280 --> 00:03:47.199 in a happier note. So Chris Mark Mark likes to emphasize the suffering. 44 00:03:47.240 --> 00:03:53.439 I mean, it depends on what you're trying to emphasize. We need to 45 00:03:53.479 --> 00:03:58.159 see what the problem is before looking at the solution. At least that's the 46 00:03:58.199 --> 00:04:02.960 way Paul argues it out in Romans. And so that's that's where I started 47 00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:08.759 the book. Yep. So in Romans one, we're looking at Paul's view 48 00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:15.039 of the total depravity of the general population. I know that there are some 49 00:04:15.080 --> 00:04:18.600 different takes on how to interpret that. What would you say is a good 50 00:04:18.600 --> 00:04:25.839 summary of Paul's view of the corrupted mind. Paul shows that it wasn't the 51 00:04:25.879 --> 00:04:28.720 way God meant us to be. It's not the way God created us to 52 00:04:28.759 --> 00:04:35.040 be, but it's the way we humans made ourselves. So in you know, 53 00:04:35.279 --> 00:04:42.439 he talks about the way of faith or faithfulness, depending how you translated. 54 00:04:42.519 --> 00:04:47.279 But in Romans one sixteen and seventeen kind of a fesis statement for either 55 00:04:47.439 --> 00:04:51.519 Paul's letter to the Romans or this part of the letter. Scholars debate that 56 00:04:51.560 --> 00:04:58.519 I think it's probably for the whole letter. But after he speaks of God's 57 00:04:58.639 --> 00:05:02.879 righteousness being revealed in the Gospel, he goes on in one eighteen to speak 58 00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:09.319 of God's wrath being revealed from Heaven against all on godliness and the righteousness of 59 00:05:09.399 --> 00:05:15.319 humanity who suppressed the truth by unrighteousness. And then he elaborates on how they 60 00:05:15.360 --> 00:05:21.839 suppressed the truth, especially in verse twenty three, where he says that we 61 00:05:21.879 --> 00:05:30.560 reduce the image in the glory of God to the image of humans and Greeks 62 00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:35.319 did, and animals like Egyptians were condemned by Greeks and Romans for doing. 63 00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:42.519 And then in one five he is also going to talk about how they suppressed 64 00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:46.040 the truth. We corrupted our thinking by rejecting the truth. And of course 65 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:53.759 in a post truth age where anything goes. I mean, you've got that 66 00:05:54.600 --> 00:06:02.000 in politics being used by both major political parties, Chris in academia, that's 67 00:06:02.040 --> 00:06:06.720 an important thing to think about about. I mean, obviously there are different 68 00:06:06.759 --> 00:06:12.879 perspectives, and we want to take into account the different perspectives, but there's 69 00:06:12.959 --> 00:06:20.040 also a meta narrative. Contrary to what has often argued, we don't have 70 00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:25.480 access to the complete meta narrative as humans. But in the Gospel, he 71 00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:31.000 gives us what we need to know of that meta narrative of God's saving plan 72 00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:44.160 and history. So he says in verses nineteen and twenty of Romans Chapter one, 73 00:06:44.439 --> 00:06:47.360 Okay, how do we suppress the truth by unrighteousness? He says, 74 00:06:47.399 --> 00:06:56.480 the truth about God was made known in what he created, So and this 75 00:06:56.600 --> 00:07:01.399 was something that would have appealed to ancient thinkers would have understood it Cicero understood 76 00:07:01.399 --> 00:07:08.600 it. Keepetitis, who was a stoic, elaborates on this. Ancient philosophers, 77 00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:15.199 mostly accepting the Epicureans, recognized divine design and nature. They said, 78 00:07:15.240 --> 00:07:18.399 you know, this can't be an accident that things work out this way, 79 00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:29.519 and especially they noticed it in what's innate in humans. So Paul reasons from 80 00:07:29.560 --> 00:07:33.959 this in verses nineteen and twenty both with what we see in the broader creation, 81 00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:38.439 what we see in ourselves. The truth of God should have been known 82 00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:43.600 to us. But in verse twenty one he says that instead of being grateful 83 00:07:44.040 --> 00:07:53.199 expressing gratitude to God for his glory that suffused creation, we chose not to 84 00:07:53.240 --> 00:08:00.000 be grateful, chose not to acknowledge him, and ended up worshiping the creature. 85 00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:05.439 Sure, rather than the creator and verse twenty two professing themselves to be 86 00:08:05.560 --> 00:08:13.920 wise, they became fools. And if you look at I mean you can. 87 00:08:15.240 --> 00:08:20.240 History illustrates this really well, that different things made sense to people in 88 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:26.000 different times based on their starting assumptions. Well, the Bible is pretty clear 89 00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:31.519 that reverence for the Lord, the fear of the Lord, is the beginning 90 00:08:31.560 --> 00:08:37.759 of wisdom and knowledge. Proverbs one eleven and so on. If we start 91 00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:41.840 with the wrong assumptions, we come to the wrong conclusions. When I was 92 00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:48.440 an atheist, I thought I could explain everything without recourse to the hypothesis, 93 00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:52.679 hypothesis of a God. I mean, that's the way I talked about it. 94 00:08:52.440 --> 00:08:56.000 Obviously, other kids wouldn't play with me. Christians get picked on, 95 00:08:56.039 --> 00:08:58.960 but atheists get picked on too, you know, I know that from experience. 96 00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:03.279 Although I didn't get beat up for being an atheist, I've gotten beaten 97 00:09:03.360 --> 00:09:11.960 up for goodness for Christ before, physically and verbally. But yeah, and 98 00:09:13.000 --> 00:09:24.120 so the mind was corrupted, humanity's way of thinking was corrupted. And then 99 00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:28.639 Paul goes on to talk about that in other ways. I don't know if 100 00:09:28.240 --> 00:09:33.759 I can keep going on this in Romans one or Yeah. You know, 101 00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:37.159 I was gonna say, I find it fascinating. You know, when we 102 00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:43.440 read Paul in Romans one, there, especially as an apologist, this exchange 103 00:09:43.480 --> 00:09:46.080 of truth, right, he talks about exchanging the truth of God for a 104 00:09:46.080 --> 00:09:52.600 lie, and so it's it's sort of innate for people. They're designed to 105 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:58.000 believe that God exists, and yet they've swapped it out and this impacts the 106 00:09:58.039 --> 00:10:03.600 way they live. Uh, And you see it in how they act and 107 00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:07.200 behave. So you just see how that that works out, which you know 108 00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:11.840 gets us as we're talking about to the importance of a of a rightly ordered 109 00:10:11.840 --> 00:10:16.559 mind. Right, and so even I sort of have this argument I call 110 00:10:16.600 --> 00:10:20.320 an argument from utility that if you want to live a good life, you 111 00:10:20.360 --> 00:10:22.639 want to do the greatest amount of good for the greatest amount of people, 112 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:24.720 Well, become a Christian, right, because it leads that way. But 113 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:31.679 getting back to to the life of the mind here of the corrupted mind? 114 00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:37.440 Do you find have you found that in your study and research Paul's language in 115 00:10:37.559 --> 00:10:45.480 Romans one receives inspiration or support from other ancient sources. Uh. And and 116 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:52.679 if so, how it's interesting One of the sources is is Scripture. So 117 00:10:54.360 --> 00:11:01.799 you know, obviously God designing things, you know, the talks about God's 118 00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:07.919 word in the Torah and in creation like that heaven is the glory of God. 119 00:11:09.159 --> 00:11:16.000 Yeah, and it's in one nineteen too, so you have a lot 120 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:22.720 of that idea of divine design in nature already in the Old Testament. Paul 121 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:28.679 uses language of fusis or nature, which was used by Stoics and pretty much 122 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:33.039 everybody else. So the Storics were the ones who emphasized that the most. 123 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:41.879 But also when Paul speaks of what you talked about about the people exchanging things 124 00:11:43.159 --> 00:11:50.080 three times, Paul says, and God gave them over. They made this 125 00:11:50.279 --> 00:11:54.120 choice, so God gave them over. And that language also goes back to 126 00:11:54.159 --> 00:12:00.600 the Old Testament. But in the Old Testament, the context is God giving 127 00:12:00.679 --> 00:12:05.240 Israel over to you know, they chose, they chose the way of evil, 128 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:11.879 so God gave them over to just reap the consequences of their choices, 129 00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:20.679 so they would choose those things even more well, philosophers made a consistent contrast 130 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:28.639 between reason and the passions. That's pretty much across the board in ancient philosophy, 131 00:12:28.679 --> 00:12:33.679 so you've got it. Among Platonists, Stoics were really big on Epicureans 132 00:12:33.080 --> 00:12:43.080 even talked about this in terms of Jewish thinkers and the diaspora, to which 133 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:48.919 Paul is writing outside the Holy Land and the diaspora, you have fourth Maccabees, 134 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:56.200 you have Philo of Alexandria, Jewish philosopher actually writing before Paul. Filo 135 00:12:56.440 --> 00:13:01.759 was they speak in terms of reason versus the passions. Well, the only 136 00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:05.799 way you're going to overcome the passions, they said, is through true reason. 137 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:11.759 And for them, true reason was found in the law, the Namas, 138 00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:22.559 the Torah of God. For say Judean rabbis, you have them speaking. 139 00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:26.440 And actually the Deadsi scrolls are already speak of the evil impulse. They 140 00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:33.720 speak of the Yatzehiah, the evil impulse, versus the ya the good impulse. 141 00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:39.799 And through studying the Torah, you could acquire more of this good impulse, 142 00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:45.159 so you could overcome the evil impulse. So it was across the board. 143 00:13:45.480 --> 00:13:52.519 There was widespread thinking among intellectuals of how the overcome the passions, and 144 00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:56.519 a truly reasoned person would have to overcome the passions. Why don't I kill 145 00:13:56.559 --> 00:13:58.879 my neighbor, I don't want to go to jail, Well that's reason. 146 00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:03.759 Why don't I sleep around with everybody? I don't want to get body likes? 147 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:09.440 You know, that's reason. So they would talk about things like that. 148 00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:18.720 Paul says that once they corrupted God's image. First of all, they 149 00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:28.039 swapped the truth of God's image for idols images like people are like animals. 150 00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:35.399 Next, they corrupted God's image and themselves. So in the beginning, God 151 00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:41.840 made us is the climax of his creation Genesis one twenty seven. In his 152 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:48.840 image, we were to be the image of God. Of Christopher Philo. 153 00:14:48.279 --> 00:14:52.440 You know, he broadens it some to the rest of creation, but especially 154 00:14:52.600 --> 00:14:58.000 humans are created in the image of God, and God created this male and 155 00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:07.240 female. But Paul talks about how we switch that. And also you know, 156 00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:13.679 in Genesis it's you know, male and female. And then in Genesis 157 00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:18.399 too the female is taken out of a male. But then the husband and 158 00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:22.759 the wife become one flesh, so they become one again. So that marriage 159 00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:28.360 is meant to speak of that of that original design, which is not to 160 00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:35.879 say I mean I was I was forty when I married my wife Medine, 161 00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:39.480 so I know how it is to be single. Also in fact I was 162 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:45.000 born single. But anyway, but just in a generic way, you know, 163 00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:50.240 marriage is meant to reflect the Ephesians talks about about that. But in 164 00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:58.080 Romans one he says verses twenty four to twenty seven, we corrupt through sexual 165 00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:07.080 messing up the image of God with idols. Then we went to messing things 166 00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:12.799 up with the image of God and ourselves using our sexuality and wrong ways. 167 00:16:14.440 --> 00:16:18.399 And then he speaks of same sex marriage. Well not marriage. They didn't 168 00:16:18.759 --> 00:16:23.919 actually have that back then, with a couple exceptions, but it was not 169 00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:30.440 the way we were physically designed to relate to each other. And so in 170 00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:36.879 all of this, you know, you look at some of the Jewish polemic, 171 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:40.919 Well, they didn't actually usually say it to gentiles, but they would 172 00:16:40.919 --> 00:16:45.759 say it to each other about how messed up their gods were. And some 173 00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:49.480 gentiles even made fun of this, or they would reinterpret it like Zeus wasn't 174 00:16:49.480 --> 00:16:56.639 really raping a girl. He was just Zeus represents justice and he's meeting with 175 00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:03.839 wisdom or something. But you look at the myths of the way the gods 176 00:17:03.880 --> 00:17:11.920 acted, and basically they were the way passionate humans would want to act if 177 00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:19.519 they could get away with it. And so you have God's raping girls and 178 00:17:19.559 --> 00:17:26.680 sometimes boys you have and sometimes grown women, and having affairs outside of marriage. 179 00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:37.680 And Hephaistus catches his wife Ephrodite and an affair with airs, and all 180 00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:41.519 the gods come and laugh at them because they caught him in this net. 181 00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:45.720 Zeus is doing this all the time. Heir is jealous and always killing or 182 00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:52.079 punishing the poor mortals that were ensnared. Sometimes they it was voluntary, but 183 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:56.400 and and and Zeus rapes a boy, Aganimity takes him to and you also 184 00:17:56.400 --> 00:18:04.039 have Apollo, you know, with both genders love interests. So you have 185 00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:14.599 Paul addressing this and saying, you corrupt the image of God and all these 186 00:18:14.599 --> 00:18:18.640 false gods, and then you end up corrupting God's image in yourselves. So 187 00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:23.519 he speaks of the sexual things, and then he goes on with other things 188 00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:30.319 God gave them over so they couldn't think about what was right ethically to a 189 00:18:30.359 --> 00:18:41.119 corrupted mind. And the two things that he highlights though, are the idolatry 190 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:45.279 and the sexual immorality. Because when Jewish people would condemn gentiles, the two 191 00:18:45.319 --> 00:18:56.480 things that they would highlight were these These were exclusively gentile sins, so worshiping 192 00:18:56.519 --> 00:19:03.039 idols that was exclusively gentile in their period, the you know Second Temple, 193 00:19:04.839 --> 00:19:15.000 early Jewish pre seventy but post exile majority of excellent. Danger of having too 194 00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:19.400 much information in here is that I have to qualify everything and anyway. So 195 00:19:22.200 --> 00:19:26.279 the other thing that they would condemn gentiles for was their sexual immorality. So 196 00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:33.880 they said, you know, a gentile girl who's over the age of I 197 00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:37.960 forget it was one or two or three. You can assume she's been molested. 198 00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:47.559 They just had this view of this was common behavior among gentiles, sexual 199 00:19:47.559 --> 00:19:53.319 immorality, especially male sexual immorality towards towards women to a great extent. I 200 00:19:53.359 --> 00:19:59.519 mean, that's an exaggeration about you know, them all being molested that young. 201 00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:08.279 But the idea of gentiles, gentile men exercising their sexual passions in a 202 00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:15.240 way the Jewish people didn't allow that was based on truth. But they acknowledged 203 00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:19.759 that there were Jewish people who did sexual immorality too, but especially same sex. 204 00:20:19.799 --> 00:20:26.559 And of course they said that's a purely gentile sin, and they regarded 205 00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:30.200 that as against nature. They weren't thinking in terms of modern genetics, but 206 00:20:30.279 --> 00:20:37.440 where male and female general organs fit each other, to put it somewhat crudely, 207 00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:44.119 and that argument from nature. Some of the Stoics, Roman Storics especially 208 00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:51.319 used that in this case. But I mean Paul's language is also something that 209 00:20:52.759 --> 00:20:56.240 pretty much all Jewish people, the diaspora, Judea and Galilee. I mean, 210 00:20:56.279 --> 00:21:03.440 they all held these they are articulated these kind of views. But it's 211 00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:10.920 also a setup because Paul's audience is gonna they're gonna be sympathetic, you know, 212 00:21:11.839 --> 00:21:17.640 Wisdom of Solomon makes an argument like this, so does Amos Prophet Amos 213 00:21:17.720 --> 00:21:22.599 chapters one and two. Judgment on Ammon, judgment on judgment on the Philistines, 214 00:21:22.599 --> 00:21:25.759 and everybody saying amen, Amen. Then he says, and judgment on 215 00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:29.799 you, because you alone have I chosen on all the families of the earth 216 00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:33.079 almost three two. Therefore I will judge you for your iniquities. Well, 217 00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:40.240 Paul gets this. Everybody's saying amen. Judgment on those idolatries, judgment on 218 00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:45.359 those people committing sexual immorality, even in ways that Jewish people would never think 219 00:21:45.400 --> 00:21:48.839 of. And then he then he comes to this vice list at the end, 220 00:21:49.079 --> 00:22:00.279 and God gave them over so envy, slander, gossip, disobedient to 221 00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:06.480 parents, arrogance, by the boasting. By the time he's done with this 222 00:22:06.680 --> 00:22:12.279 vice list, all of humanity is undersind And so it's a way of saying, 223 00:22:14.680 --> 00:22:18.839 hey, none of us can justify ourselves. We all need the gospel 224 00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:22.839 that I talked about back in verses sixteen and seventy. They didn't have versus 225 00:22:22.839 --> 00:22:26.160 back then. Yeah, yeah, he says, as you mentioned, he 226 00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:30.119 gives this vice list, and he basically says, and you do the same 227 00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:34.799 things exactly. Yeah, And now granted maybe the Christians do it to a 228 00:22:34.880 --> 00:22:40.160 lesser degree, but within the scope where we do the same sort of things 229 00:22:40.519 --> 00:22:45.880 of the people that we right, No, but yeah, it's true, 230 00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:52.480 yea, And especially when you get to those those general I mean things like 231 00:22:52.240 --> 00:23:00.599 jealousy and arrogance, and yeah, the corrupted mind is still there. It 232 00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:04.279 even lingers for the Christian and we'll get into that as we talk in future 233 00:23:04.279 --> 00:23:10.079 weeks about more about the passions and the flesh, the mind of the flesh, 234 00:23:10.279 --> 00:23:12.839 why we need the renewed mind that's right on. Yeah, let me 235 00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:18.440 ask you here since Romans one is a popular verse to use in apologetics conversations, 236 00:23:19.319 --> 00:23:26.319 so this is sort of my question to you when thinking about apologetic methodology, 237 00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:30.119 and as you likely know, there are different camps and philosophies on how 238 00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:37.960 to do apologetics. Would you say that the non Judeo Christian person is able 239 00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:44.240 to reason their way into Christian belief and what might be that relationship then with 240 00:23:44.920 --> 00:23:48.839 divine grace? So you know, some people think we can just reason our 241 00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:53.640 way to Christianity and that leaves a place, allegedly for divine grace not to 242 00:23:53.680 --> 00:24:03.559 get involved. Paul's very clear that God revealed his righteousness, his way of 243 00:24:03.559 --> 00:24:11.119 making righteous, or his covenant faithfulness. There's a debate abit but he revealed 244 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:15.319 that in the Gospel, So the Gospel gives us access by revelation. He's 245 00:24:15.319 --> 00:24:22.680 also revealed himself in creation. So even without the Gospel, we have access 246 00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:29.400 to enough to know right from wrong and to know that at least sometimes we've 247 00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:37.440 done things that are wrong. But He's also clear that our minds are corrupted, 248 00:24:38.359 --> 00:24:45.839 and that means that we are it's going to be limited. We're not 249 00:24:45.880 --> 00:24:51.240 going to recognize things the way in our pristine form, ideally the way we 250 00:24:51.240 --> 00:24:56.880 were meant to be, we would recognize God's grace. And some settings are 251 00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:03.400 more alienated from others, or more alienated than others, with overlays of multiple 252 00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:10.640 ways of getting around the truth of God, and so it's harder for some. 253 00:25:11.319 --> 00:25:15.799 I was for my age. I was one of the harder cases, 254 00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:19.839 I think, and the best I could come to, and this was God 255 00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:25.799 working on me as well. But the best I could come to was okay. 256 00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:32.759 And actually this was starting from Platonism because I was I was very inconsistent 257 00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:41.359 philosophically. I started out I was a purely naturalistic, by which I mean 258 00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:49.440 anti supernaturalistic metaphysically just materialist in the one hand, But on the other reading 259 00:25:49.480 --> 00:25:56.240 Plato, I became an idealist, and those don't actually mesh too well. 260 00:25:56.240 --> 00:26:02.359 But but what I got from Plato was he was concerned about the immortality of 261 00:26:02.359 --> 00:26:07.640 the soul. But his argument from innate knowledge I didn't think worked too well, 262 00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:18.759 and I ended up asking the question, what value is life if it's 263 00:26:18.759 --> 00:26:26.960 so transitory? And yet I'm cognizant of my own being in a direct way, 264 00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:33.480 I'm not cognizant of anybody else's, So my experience tells me that there's 265 00:26:33.480 --> 00:26:40.160 something there. But I had a beginning. I'm finite, I'm mortal, 266 00:26:41.799 --> 00:26:49.720 and there's no way my life can have ultimate meaning or purpose unless that's invested 267 00:26:49.720 --> 00:26:56.319 by something infinite, And there's no you know, if there's nobody infinite, 268 00:26:56.440 --> 00:27:00.359 you know, the best of all possible worlds would be if there was an 269 00:27:00.519 --> 00:27:06.279 infinite person. I had to be personal, so it could care enough about 270 00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:12.519 me to give me that, or I could plug into that somehow and loving, 271 00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:18.680 But even that wouldn't help me because I wasn't loving, So why would 272 00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:26.000 a loving infinite being care about me. That's as far as my platonic philosophy 273 00:27:26.039 --> 00:27:30.799 could take me. One sixteen and seventeen, God revealed the truth in the 274 00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:37.720 Gospel. The day that I first heard the Gospel, I blew it off. 275 00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:45.880 It wasn't presented to me in the most intellectual fashion. But I walked 276 00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:52.160 home so convicted by the Holy Spirit that I was converted from atheism to Christianity 277 00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:57.319 within the span of a couple hours in my bedroom. By the presence of 278 00:27:57.359 --> 00:28:04.279 the Holy Spirit present in the Gospel converted me. And I know that's not 279 00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:11.839 everybody's experience, but just my experience does line up. I think with Romans 280 00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:21.359 one. There there are shadows of truth that we can still access, but 281 00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:30.279 we need the Gospel actually to meet God in Christ, the fullest revelation of 282 00:28:30.359 --> 00:28:34.359 Himself in Christ, the saving revelation of his Self in Christ. And it 283 00:28:34.440 --> 00:28:41.279 led you to a transformed way of thinking. Yeah, although the transforming has 284 00:28:41.480 --> 00:28:45.519 been taking some time. Amen, Christ, Yes, that's right. Yes, 285 00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:51.960 thanks for chatting with me about your view on Paul's take of the corrupted 286 00:28:52.039 --> 00:28:55.599 mind. And that's sort of as you mentioned, we need to diagnose the 287 00:28:55.640 --> 00:29:00.680 problem first before we can sort of get the good news the prescription and the 288 00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:03.759 good news that's to come thereafter. If you want to learn more about doctor 289 00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:08.000 Keener's journey, you can look at his treasure trove of resources. Head on 290 00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:12.640 over to Craig Keener dot com. There you can subscribe to his website and 291 00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:18.079 find articles, blog posts, videos, and even his cartoons. At his 292 00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:22.319 site, you can subscribe to receive email updates. You can also follow doctor 293 00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:26.319 Keener on Facebook, Twitter, and his YouTube channel. But if you want 294 00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:30.759 to see the latest videos of the Bible Backgrounds Podcast before everybody else does, 295 00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:34.640 go to Apologetics three fifteen dot com. At that site you can see doctor 296 00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:40.279 Keener's video channel, and if you subscribe to his AP three fifteen video channel, 297 00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:45.680 you can be entered to win the IVP Bible Backgrounds Commentary New Testament signed 298 00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:48.720 by doctor Keener. After this season is completed, we'll select a winner. 299 00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:53.559 So go to Apologetics three fifteen dot com, click on videos and subscribe to 300 00:29:53.599 --> 00:30:12.200 doctor Keener's channel. But it