Hello, everyone, Welcome to the latest episode of Hardwootns. This is outam
from We'll here with my always fantastic co host Dan for Valley. We are
recording a who You Got episode here. We're gonna be posing some questions about
whether you'd have player X or player Why. In some cases team X or
Team Why for variable amount of time. They might be for the rest of
this season, they might be for the rest of their careers, maybe just
a few years in the future. Dan has come up with a couple of
these. I've come up with a couple of these. Our listeners have also
come up with some via Twitter via our Discord channel. We are recording this
about a week before it is publishing to account for Dan taking a well deserved,
very rarely seen vacation. So some of the numbers, if we if
we do lean on any of those for these comparisons, might be a little
bit out of date, so just keep that in mind. But the general
sentiments won't be because these comparisons really shouldn't change over the course of a week,
and if they do, then that's that's bad analysis by us. So
this should still feel both that it can shift on a whim like that that's
fair. It shouldn't. Still, I'm with you. We try, we
both we both try not to be like too reactive, fair enough, But
some of these guys, most of these scenarios are just of such young players
and teams that maybe you are kind of straddling like very fine lines here because
the samples absolutely absolutely, But yeah, that's how are you doing before we
kick this sauce. I'm hanging in there. Sick toddlers are always rough,
especially when they have to stay home while you're working and wake up a bunch
during the night. So I'm a little fatigued at the moment moment, But
we're gonna put all that aside and bring a high energy episode as always.
How about you. I'm gonna bring a high energy episode as always. I'm
under caffeinated at the moment relative to how much caffeine I normally have at this
point in the day, though, so we'll see, we'll see how what
happened to the ninth cup of coffee? Man, I don't drink coffee.
It's basically just like pre workouts and then these amino energy things. But I
have sub five hundred milligrams of caffeine in me, right now, which is
just very uncharacteristic for it's eleven thirty am Eastern time. There's normally more If
I work out early in the morning, there's more caffeine in my body than
that you work out. No, rarely, that's why they're subcaffeine in my
body. I just don't work out. That's fair. That's fair. Let's
start with the listener ones. You thought about this one a lot. It
was from demos cool. Actually who you got Shay Gil, just Alexander or
Tyrese Halibert. And if there are no specifications in the scenarios that were post
to us, I'm just assuming you mean for their career arcs in general.
That's what I assumed. I have another one. I thought I had a
more apt one for Haliburton, but you thought about this one a lot.
So I thought about this one a lot because I, like I wanted to
convince myself that Haliburton could be the answer. And I don't think I ever
got there because Shay, even though this is his fourth season in the league,
he's still only twenty three, and he's demonstrated that he can capably serve
as that number one option. So that's that's the thing that it keeps coming
down to for me, where even with the expansions of Haliburton's game, which
was already so remarkably well rounded in his second season, we're seeing him create
more off the bounce, serve more as a primary initiator for offense, whether
in Sacramento or Indiana. The passing skills look even better. But like the
track record that that SGA has already shown, admittedly for a tanking thunder team
like that, the three point shot hasn't been there yet, but the self
creation skill has the ability to improve those around him, and to do that
while he's the subject of an inordinate amount of defensive attention on a nightly basis,
because who else needs to be featured on that scouting report for the last
few years. So at the time that we're recording this, you know,
he's still averaging twenty four point four points, five point zero rebounds, five
point nine assistant. Granted, like the efficiency isn't quite there, but only
as a shooter. He doesn't turn the ball over, He plays decent defense,
He fills up I said decent. He fills a super high volume offensive
role. I think he's kind of what Haliburton hopes to turn into down the
road, and we've seen that go south so many times. I'm not saying
it will for Halliburton, but when you have a player who's the aspiration is
for him to turn into the other player, go with the other player,
especially when they're still only twenty three, I would agree that it's Shay here,
but as you were talking, thinking about it more, it's probably a
closer line than I. It's close Haliburton. I think the swing difference here
would be. Look, Shay's efficiencies down from the perimeter this year, but
he is just entirely responsible for all of his own books basically still, and
I'm curious to see maybe that's the role he always has an Okay, see
fine, but like give him better spacing to work with at least then and
I think those percentages go up. The swing thing might just be though Haliburton
has has been better as a one on one score than I thought that he
would. Like. There's just as it's not as what Shay does is very
in your face because you know he can do it now, there's still like
a disarming subtlety to Haliburton's on ball game. And if he starts hitting off
the dribble triples or serving as more of like and we've seen it from what
I've watched anyway of the Pacers with him like he's had some of that agency,
So it's really not out of the question. I do think there's a
chance he ends up being the better defender, but Shay should be the better
defender. He should be, I don't know if he will be. Maybe
it's he's just been like saddled with this monstrous offensive role. Even with Josh
Giddy there, I would still take Shay. It's just he's more established at
this point and the level of difficulty on his role, whether you're talking about
Sacramento Thyris Aliberton or Indiana Tyrres Alibert, it's been just so much greater.
And to have the numbers and efficiency that he does, and to be as
important Okasey's offense as as he is, I think it has to be him
at the home, but man, Haliberton is so good, so he's and
my other one was unless you have anything to add on this one specifically,
kind of do but go for your other one first. I had Maxi or
Haliburton, and maybe I'm just drawn to them because they were coming out of
the same draft class. I think the question gets harder to answer now that
Maxy's the third option in Philly when they're at first strength, But looking at
what Maxi did before Harden got there and then the Sixers have been kind of
all over the place. If you actually believe in tires Maxie, it feels
like a real conversation because I think his defense is almost underrated, like the
energy with which he plays there and how in your face he can be where
Haliburton is really solid and he'll make plays away from like Maxie feels like the
guy eventually he's not big enough to do this, but like, go defend
whatever guard and it could be the toughest matchup and it's he'll be able to
handle it. And that's there's real value in that. I don't think Haliburton
or Shakilch's Axander profiles that type of player at their peak. I don't know
that I'm there yet with Maxie to the point that i'd compare him to Haliburton,
still high on his upside, but just exponentially higher with Haliburton. I
think my last point here, and this will also apply to basically all of
these comparisons. This is the time of the year where I spend way too
much of my free time looking at fantasy baseball projections and trying to prepare for
drafts. And I think there's a common misconception with projection systems that people are
trying to pinpoint the exact number that a player is going to have, whether
it's home runs or stolen bases or batting average. Now it's actually like they're
trying to project project the most likely outcome. And there are certain projection systems
like ATC that are sophisticated enough that they can look at ranges of outcomes,
assign likelihoods to them, and then boil it down to a specific number.
So that's relevant here because I'm operating under the most likely outcome, so to
me, seventy percent of the outcomes are going to be SGA has a better
career than Haliburton. But if you look at how the tails work, I
would say that Haliburton's potential peak like that five percent outcome is probably higher.
So the most likely outcome is not necessarily the same as the best case scenario.
And I think that's that's a big one here, because I would bank
on SGA as the most likely better career because of the level to which he's
already ascended. If you asked me who has a chance to have the best
career if everything goes right, I'm probably on Haliburton's side there versus SGA.
I think, so wow, I still think I've met SGA. I'd pretty
easily still go Halibert and over Maxim. That's an easier one. That would
have been a better question, and it was my own, by the way,
it wasn't that one wasn't listeners. It would have been better like pre
James harden trade, just based off like the role that MAXI was in.
This one comes from Jay Dobbs ninety four. Franz Wagner or Scotty Barnes.
Who who you got? Who is the highest ceiling? I don't I have
one for Franz Wagner. I'm not putting him. The Raptors are running their
crunch time offense through Scottie Barnes right now. That is a thing that is
actually happening, and he's probably still better on defense than offense. I don't
know. I don't know. Man, the passing, he's shown his ability
to get through guys and the touch in it's getting closer. I think I'd
still take the defensive versatility that he has, and that's to say that I
think this is still an easy answer. Vagger has had a tremendous rookie season,
one that would land him in the Rookie of the Year conversation almost any
season. And it's not his fault that he happens to be a first year
player at the same time as these three other generational feeling players. So he
is the most consistent scorer of this rookie class. He stayed healthy. He's
also operated with a lot less pressure in an Orlando system that isn't as heavily
reliant on him, that isn't getting the best that an opponent has to offer
every night. He's flying a little below the radar. He deserves a ton
of credit. You should be super excited about his potential. He's going to
be an all star conversations down the road. But Scotty Barnes, like we've
talked about it on previous episodes, it feels like the ceiling is unfathomable because
of the two way ability. And that's not to say that Wagner is just
a horrific defender, but Barnes is an all defensive caliber defender down the road.
So it's it's like, it doesn't feel premature to me, at least
to say that Barnes could factor into the best player in the world conversation one
day. And I just I don't see that with with with Wagner, even
if he's obviously very good. So let's break this up and we'll start with
Wagner. I had this one. I don't. I think people might feel
like it's an egregious insult on behalf of Wagner, and I actually don't.
But who you got for their careers their outcomes? Friends, Wagner or Denny
avia pretty easily Wagner at this point. Oh wow. I might take av
the defensive versatility that we've seen from a walk, and I just don't think
they've tapped into his offensive potential yet. And that's the thing I wonder if
it's as high as we think that's that's that might be the discrepancy here,
because Washington has had no excuse to not try to tease more of it out,
and it just hasn't happened fair I guess, just for someone who's a
sophomore and has come along so much defensively, it feels like some of the
other stuff. I mean, there's like a real physicality and touch to his
game when he can get inside the arc and is moving downhill, and my
friends, Vogner is shown more on the ball. That's I think. I
think there's a realistic scenario in which Advia never has an offensive season as good
as the one Wagner's having right now. Oh wow, I'll blame that on
the Wizards if that ends up happening, am And And that's that's not even
an insult to Advia necessarily, Like Vagner has been that good offensively as a
rookie. Yeah, I don't know. I guess I respect any obvious defense
a little bit too much here and think that he's being underutilized on offense still,
But the point of his still sort of being underutilized post Spencer Dinwitty,
post Bradley Beale's injury, that's certainly a concern there, But I guess I'm
looking at the growth as a defender. Feel like that was a harder jump
to make than Franz Wagner coming in and playing like perfect number two or number
three style basketball, where the pressure is just not on like you said the
press, like you have Wendell Carter Junior. There you have Jail and Songs.
Those two are at least higher in the pecking order than he is.
Immediately Obvia is of course not at top of mind in Washington's pecking order,
but his. It's well point out. I would have friends Wagner probably third
or fourth in my Rookie of the Year voting right now. So I'm not
anti Franz Wagner in that discussion, but I think it's closer than your immediate
answer would imply. That's fair. The other breaking up this would be Scottie
Barnes versus Kay Cunningham versus Emmon Mobley, who you got. I feel like
I spend ed lee least five minutes a day thinking about this right now.
I don't even know. Like there I wrote about this recently where it's like,
I feel like Rookie of the Year is almost irrelevant this season because we
should just be so universally excited about their futures in different ways, and it's
so exceedingly rare to have three first year players who you legitimately feel could enter
that best player in the world conversation you know, mobili because he can do
everything on defense, and I would argue that he's been the defensive lynchpin of
the Cleveland Cavaliers unit. Even if Jared Allen tends to get a little bit
more recognition, he also has that I don't know if you want to call
it LaMarcus Aldridge style offense. Sometimes like sometimes it even looks like a little
Kevin durantish as Lawtia comparison as that can be. It feels more Kevin Garnett
meets Kevin Durrayant than anything LaMarcus Aldridge ever did. To be honest with you,
there's like there, I get that they could probably because I don't see
really LaMarcus Aldrigs and him at all. Yeah, it's more like the shot
selection than the esthetics. I think. Okay, but that yeah, I
mean, Barnes, we already talked about where it's this ridiculous two way ceiling
as well the defensive versatility from a wing player. He's showing more as a
passer and then Kid Cunningham like talk about already being an offensive fulcrum, which
is the hardest role to fill. So I think because of that, even
though he will not be as good on defense as the other two. I
think Cunningham has done enough in the second half of the season as the unquestioned
engine of a suddenly competitive Pistons team that he'd be my number one, and
then Mobley is my number two. And I hate that I have to put
Barnes at number three, but someone has to fill that role. Yeah,
so I would have Kade at number one as well. There's like, I
know they're games aren't similar, but the control he has and even his defensive
potential. But I don't think Chris Paul has all defense selections. I don't
think kay Conaham's gonna get there. I sometimes wonder this watching him is like
what if Chris Paul was six nine. That's the type of the feeling I've
had too. I was I was scared to say that out loud, So
I'm glad you did instead of me, and now I can just agree with
you. It's not rooted in the functionality of his game per se. It's
just he has the these entire defenses on the string. It feels like he
forges instant chemistry with like Marvin Bagley comes in there and then Kaid's already connecting
on him with lobs like right off the bed, like just feature all star
Marvin Bagley's I don't have who he got from Marvin Bagleyhams because he'd be better
than everyone, So I have him number one. Just the fact that that
springing to mind is just like it, and he looked. He starts off
the season injured. He's on the worst team easily of the three, and
I know people have like kind of harped on his efficiency, but even that
is perked up like ever since he returned to the lineup. Most likely we're
just hitting over fifty percent of his two's still sub thirty percent on his threes.
He's not taken easy as threes. And there's also he does feel though
what I will say that if you were to place another star around him,
that he is more easily integrated alongside someone else who's more ball dominant than Mobley
or I think Scottie Barnes will end up being the toughest to do that.
And there are things you can do with them since they're like quasi big.
Well Mobile is a big and Barnes can be used as a big two,
and we've shown that Barnes, but he's not the primary option can be effective,
But like if you gave Kade, like literally, I just feel like
Kde is the guy not on the Steph level where he elevates everyone around him
can play with anyone, but he can play with almost anyone, and I
don't know that on offense. I don't know if you could say the same
about Mobili or Barnes long term. So I have Kade, this is Evan
Mobley is my rookie, and this is really to me, is like a
it's a fair question against all three, but it feels like Mobile versus Barnes
is the actual discussion. I have Barnes ahead of Mobile because of what Toronto
is like. It's been baptism by fire on offensive late and I kind of
love it. But there is there's a lot more of Mobile to plumb on
the office, like he can the way he can move with the ball in
his hands on offense. Still, it wouldn't shock me if this ends up
being a terrible take. And the fact that he's already sort of a defensive
anchor or no worse than the second most important defensive player. I still think
he's the most important when you look at them, not just the number of
shots he's contesting, but just like the spectrum of assignments that he has,
it's wild I would go Barnes. I think the offensive ceiling is higher there
for him. That being said is this, I don't want to be reductive
here, but for them it could come down to a matter of and Barnes
might have to be a little bit better at this given how good mobile will
be on defense, it kind of comes down to like who has the better
like perimeter game. It doesn't have to be a floor perimeter game necessarily,
but who's going to We've seen stretches where Scotty Barnes can hit jumpers and hit
threes, but I think ever sustainable Mobiley is going to have that range.
It might like the margins here, might be that fin where it comes down
to something like that. Even if you don't think that I'm right in what
it comes down to, that's how fine the line feels between these two.
Yeah, it's I still think the most likely outcome is Mobiley just because of
the role that he can fill on both ends. But it's it's just razor
thin. I do think again, going back to that if everything goes right
scenario, I think Mobiley pulls well ahead there. If we're talking about like
that ninety nine percentile outcome where I can see a future in which he has
a scoring title and a Defensive Player of the Year, I don't know that
I can see that for Barnes. I can't for Barnes, but I can't.
I can't see that. I can see Barnes getting a scoring title.
I can't see mobiles. Oh see, I'm actually the opposite way where I
can see Barn's getting Defensive Player of the Year, but I struggle more to
see him winning a scoring title. Wow, I mean, I mean,
And that says a lot around with That says a lot right there, that
like we're both we're airing on the on like winning different major awards like that.
That says more than maybe anything else we've said to this point about how
fucking good these guys are. Let's get to his team one from JT Alexander.
If this Clippers team and their stars can stay healthy, who are you
choosing to win more championships over the next three seasons? The Clippers or the
field? Who you got? It's always the field. It is always the
field. It's always the field. If you let's say they're all healthy and
they stay together, the Clippers versus the Nets for the next three years.
Right, you got that's what you were thinking. No, I think you
could do that with a number of different teams, and that's why you take
the field. No, I'm asking you Clippers versus Nets. That is the
actual one. I know, I know, I know. But to the
actual question, I mean, I'm still taking the Nets like that if if
we're also assuming health there, and we're assuming that Kyrie Irving is allowed to
play basketball, that is a big ass assumption. But yeah, go ahead.
I mean, the vaccine mandates are not going to be in place forever.
Right. I would pick the Clippers, though, And there's that team
feels more dynamic where you're looking at the construction of this roster. I don't
think Ben Simmons is going to be as clean of a fit on offense as
people think. And I'm throwing injuries out of the equation. Here. You
have wings galore on this Clippers team where they can still play big. They
have Zubots, they have Hartenstegn. But you can put like between Nick Batoum
and a mere coffee. They just have all these dudes that are between six
six and sixty nine. It can play whatever. But are we are we
comparing a forty year old Nick Batoum and a mere coffee to Ben Simmons.
Okay, but they also have Marcus Morris, there's that team of Reggie Jackson,
they have Terrence Man plus a healthy Paul Georgian. Right, there's I
mean, there's there's more depth for sure, but like still what they haven't
read awesome? Kyrie Irving and Ben Simmons they do fit together, okay on
both ends. They don't on offense. The Simmons versus with Durant and Kyrie,
like we have to get away from just assuming it's gonna work. Ben
Simmons, fine, we've seen him hanging out with the Dunkers, have not
lost the game together yet, But is he gonna be okay in that role
full time? Or if people talk about using him as the screener? News
flash, it rarely happened in Philly, and when it did, the results
weren't great. I'm inclined not to necessarily read or take away anything from it
because of how small sample it was, but I'm not willing to just say
that it's a given he's an offensive fit there, and then you move on
to the rest of the roster. There's just no wings. Oh the rest
of the roster is not comfortable. But like we're also I would assume that
those rosters are going to change over the next few years as well. Are
we just assuming they have the same exact roster? Because when I when I
hear these questions, I'm thinking, like, oh, they have draft picks
space. Here's a better question. Clippers front office or Brooklyn Nets front office?
Who you got? YEA? Definitely, definitely the Clippers. Definitely the
Clippers front office. Absolutely, the Nets front office has just laid down and
completely lost control of that team. It feels like, which I would acquiesced
to whatever Kevin Durant wanted, that he is one of the ten greatest basketball
players all time, I get it, but they have not been particularly creative,
and look, Camp, we need we need to do that discussion at
some point because it feels like there are enough top ten candidates playing right now
that we need to like reevaluate that tier because just throwing out top ten and
I'm not criticizing you here, like just throwing out top ten when like,
now we have to factor in Katie and Steph Curry and Lebron that's like and
Lebron, but I mean Lebron been in it for a while, Like that's
just that's obviously obviously. But like I mean, Janis is on pace to
be in that club, like he's not there yet. That'd be a good
offseason pod A. Yeah, I have a follow up to this. Who
you got though, healthy Clippers, healthy Nuggets the next three years? Who
you got? Oh, definitely the Nuggets there. I don't think that one's
even close. I don't. I mean, Yokich is the best player of
the bunch by a significant margin. So you think then, I am fully
of the belief that Michael Porter Junior's early season struggles were due to the injury
that has since kept him out. I do think that the player we saw
last season is much more akin to what we're going to see moving forward.
Jamal Murray was on an all star trajectory. There's a ton of depth there.
There's there's just a lot to like about that Nuggets team. Let me
phrase it this way. Then everything kicked in injury risk and everything Nuggets versus
Clippers. Does that change it at all? It does change it. I'm
not I'm not worried about Jamal Murray long term, just because we've seen players
tear that they matter. Let's make that clear, but they're not. They
matter, but they're not career enders or anything like that at this point.
They're not indicative of future injury woes or anything. MPJ. That conversation is
different. But I don't trust either Kauai or Paul George to stay healthy.
So I think given Yokaja status as this iron Man now where he only sits
out because the team asked him to, and he's been better about accepting some
more limitations this year, we've seen no injury concerns whatsoever. His game should
continue to get better. There's no part of his game that should decline with
age. I don't see any reason to pick against him right now. Yeah,
okay, that's I think. I take nuggets in both ways too.
But if you remove the Porter Jr. I thought, this is the extent
to which I consider it. I don't think it's a fair one. But
all the factors involved that thought about doing an RJ. Barrett or Michael Porter
Jr. Who you got and that's because of mpj's health, and I think
I would I view as RJ seiling as a playmaker and defender versus mpj's I
think it's an actual discussion, but it feels a little unfair because Michael Porter
junior peak has still been way higher than RJ. Barrett's best ten game straight
you could use the ten game rolling rating. Maybe I'm just seeing you know
lies here, but I would argue, like Michael Porter Junior's ten game peak
on offense is way higher than RJ. Barrett's like best ten game peak.
So let's I thought, if you want a vampire, I can. I
can figure that out. The shout out to Luke J thirty seven, by
the way, he had Evan Mobile or Scotty Barnes long term, I did
not see that when we said it, so we had, uh the question
that we pose. I think you throw Kaid in there too, but the
Mobile, Barnes, and maybe some people might just think all three of those
guys had best player in the league potential, I think is what they've flashed.
I would say I'm picking Barnes even thinking or even knowing that Evan Mobley
is sort of has the higher end outcome, Like you said, the ninetieth
percentile outcome for Evan Mobley feels like it'd be better than Barnes. But for
everything Barnes does on offense, it feels like he's more he would be more
likely to reach his peak and sustain it. I could just be way off
there. That's going to be a fascinating discussion until the end of time,
though, is going to be. So to answer your question, why is
this happening, I'm struggling to find Barretts right now for some reason. But
Michael Porter Junior peaked with a ten game rolling player rating of twenty point seven
one three, which is the three hundred and seventy seventh highest peak in NBA
history. That's not in substantial when you consider how many good place is absolutely
not insubstantial. And I'm trying to figure out our j Barrett because I have
like some weird formula thing happening here and my computer is being slow. So
I will get back to you on that one in a second. So we
have another one from listeners. Sid disc asks some love to DeAndre Ayton,
question mark and how why teams can't plan against him or play him off the
floor Alla Rudy Gobert or some other traditional bigs. So this essentially seems like
a who you got in the playoffs, DeAndre Ayton or Rudy Gobert. I
mean, I'm still going with Gobert, so am I and I do think
defensively, if you want to play DeAndre Eton up higher, you can.
I think that's also a luxury. It is a testament to what DeAndre can
do. I want to make that clear. It's also a luxury of having
both Jay Crowder and Michael Bridges and even Chris Paul like he's not going to
be helping out in the back line, but you give Rudy Gobert. I
mean, he already had Jay Crowder for a minute, but you give him
both Jay Crowder and Michael Bridges on the team, or even just Michael Bridges
because they already have Royce O'Neill. I think the context of Utah's defense and
Rudy Gobert's resume, which is unfairly harshly judged relative to what's happened in the
postseason, I'm still taking Rudy Gobert. Now, if you want to have
conversations with Eton about like, you know, some of the I think he's
used. You know this one of the questions I have was DeAndre ayten or
depends on the question, was who you got Jaren Jackson Junior or DeAndre Eten.
I think that's a better one. I'm still going with Aiden here.
I forget who says it on Twitter, but like maybe multiple people have at
this point, I don't know that anyone is better at just using their size
in the NBA. Like, if you throw a small lineup at DeAndre Ayden,
he is going to take advantage of that. If you don't, he's
more capable of just filling a smaller role alongside the sun Stars. But the
defensive growth that he's shown, the understanding of his role in his own limitations,
is really impressive. I think that Jackson for all the three point shooting,
prowess, for all the shop blocking, and he has a legitimate case
to be in the conversation for defensive Player of the Year. There are some
games where he calls his own number a bit too frequently and can kind of
hinder his own team rather than help it. I don't see that from Aiden,
so especially in a playoffs scenario where schematic adjustments within the course of a
series are so important, I think that I would count on eighton a little
bit more. I didn't go like that wasn't one. The actual one I
have is who you got, Jaron Jackson Junior or John Collins. I'm going
with Jaron Jackson Jr. At this point, I'm I don't trust Collins's health.
Oh, because Jaron Jackson Junior has been a beacon of good health before
this season. You didn't let me finish, which means that I am now
evaluating just purely on upside and Collins, for all that he does on offense,
just as this tremendous pick and roll, pick and pop option, it's
not there on defense. I think I'm with you, but I do feel
like John healthy. John Collins, who by the way is out definitely as
we record this that's a bummer, is so underrated on offense, and he's
been a little bit better on evens than people expect. I think Jaren Jackson
Junior's offense is comparable, and he probably does has the freedom to do a
little bit more on the ball. I would call Collins the better offensive player,
but Jaron Jackson Junior is probably gonna make an All the Defense team this
year, come close to it. Yes to circle back roll fast the RJ
Barrett thing because I do have the number now, so again, Porter peaked
at twenty point seven one three. RJ. Barrett's peak and rolling Player rating
has been seventeen point five seven seven. The fun thing about that, though,
is that the peak is right now. It's a look if you I'm
just gonna pose it to you with everything on the table, Michael Porter Junior,
RJ. Barrett, who you got? I think you have to go
with Barrett because the injuries from Porter are just so immensely concerning. You know,
we're not talking about a you know, a leg buckling. We're talking
about consistent back issues, back issues that drove his stock down, that caused
him to miss an entire season that are now rearing up once again. Those
are immensely concerning. If he does get healthy, the sky is the limit.
But it's a big if because we don't know how long he's gonna stay
healthy, So you have to have that in the back of your mind at
every part of the analysis. I'm glad I'm not too homery here because I
had RJ. Barrett as well, which is why didn't want to pose the
question, because I thought it would be too much a coward to say it,
but I don't know, and maybe it's because Porter Junior's ever put in
the situation, but I think we even saw it in the playoffs last year.
RJ. Barrett is ready to play a role on the ball where he's
not as efficient, but I think is going to be a much better playmaker
there at some point. We've already seen his ability to get to the rim
over this past you know, twenty thirty games, stretch, whatever it's been
for him since he started attacking consistently, and he's already just been worlds better
on defense. I think he's probably not been as good this year as he
was last year, but there's been a lot of things wrong with the Knicks
this year, and I do still feel like he's someone that you can say,
go guard the second best player on the team if he's going to be
the two, three and maybe even the four, and just his awareness off
the ball, and a lot of this is coming from last season. I'll
say that I don't know that Michael for June is actually basing this off nothing
from this season that we saw from him. His off ball defense has gotten
a lot better, to the extent that he will play make on defense.
It's probably not consistent. It's not a constant, but there's that. I
also wonder, though, how does this back stuff affect him on mat and
like there is a there's an outcome where maybe this always crops up a little
bit, but he's still an offensive superstar because the way that he can shoot,
and maybe it's not off the dribble, but the way that he can
kind of move away from the ball and just get looks off over anybody.
How does this impact him defensively long term if the backstuff continues to crop up,
Probably not well. The other thing I will say is we need to
get a scan on the amount of cartilage that RJ. Barrett has left in
him, just because he has played almost two full seasons for tips. That's
something we do And that was my next question, was you got Tibbs or
anyone else as the New York Knicks head coach. We're moving on. I
don't think he's fully to blame for everything that's happening there, but to say
that his job should be secure is blasphemous and I think if anything, it
just implies that you're not good still. You're continuing to not place enough stock
in the youth in the Rocks, and that's totally fair because ninety eight percent
to blame is not the same as fully to blame. I still love and
I mentioned this. I think I've mentioned this on like consecutive podcast now.
I love that he came out and said the Knicks play young guys more than
anyone else, even over the last few weeks. That's still categorically untrue,
absolute inanity for him to say that. I don't know if you can open
discord because we have a one from Darkwing Duck and it feels like the question
was made for you to read because I'm having trouble processing it. But I
have another one to stick with Grizzlies and Hawks here, Trey Young or John
Moran? Who you got? Why are you doing this to me? That's
my answer? Pass with so much reluctance, I think I have to go
with Jahn Moran because as flammable as Trey Young, as as on offensive,
one of the few players who can justifiably be called an offensive system unto himself,
and I've I've been a strong supporter of the idea that his defense or
complete lack thereof it, does not mean that he is not a current fringe
MVP candidate, like we're talking way back of the ballot or a future one,
because what he does on offense is so ridiculously vital, and a healthy
Hawks team was at least theoretically supposed to be built to cover up for some
of those flaws, play into them in a way that he can at least
gamble for steals and whatnot, and that just hasn't happened. But those defensive
concerns and the need to plan around them do still exist in a way that
they don't for John Moran. So we're seeing this season what a Morant led
team could do. And granted that supporting cast in Memphis is utterly ridiculous.
Just the amount of depth, the amount of talent, the amount of upside,
it is unfathomable and should make every other team envious, almost every other
team, I suppose. But he's also feeling that lead offensive role with a
plot. I mean, he is a dominant, aggressive scorer, he's a
really good passer is he is good at those things as Trey Young is probably
not. But he's also not nearly as bad a defender, and that probably
does matter when we're splitting hairs in a conversation about two people who should be
mainstays in the end in the MVP conversation for the better part of the next
decade. So it's one of those where it's it's so tough because Tray can
win any game by himself. We've seen him be able to win playoff series
by himself. Moran hasn't done that yet. He'll get a chance to do
this postseason. But if you're looking to build a team around one of these
two guys are, even in their current situations, I think that the positives
outweigh the negatives more strongly. With John Moran, I struggled on how when
I was thinking about this one, I struggled on how to sort of factor
in leadership and selflessness because I don't I'm not saying Trey Young is a bad
leader, but there's like a very infectious demeanor about the way John Morant plays
and acts away from the court that joy can of course manifest just because you're
winning. It's much tougher to maintain that. But he feels like a dude
that players are gonna want to play with all the time. I'm not sure
if Trey Young is that person because he's so ball dominant that being said,
my actual pick is Trey Young because I haven't seen John Morant be able to
and his team is deeper, maybe not as much or clearly not as much
offensive talent, but like the Grizzlies half court offense, if they're not in
transition or cleaning up their own missus, like they have real questions, that's
not on John Morant. But Trey Young can take the crimpiest of lineups and
uplift them into this incredible half court offense. I think that becomes way more
valuable in the postseason. And that's why I would pick Trey Young. Well,
it's close for me, but that is the primary reason why. And
I'm not saying John Morant can't get to that level, but there is just
a dynamic to Trey Young's game when you're looking at the havoc he even creates
inside the arc, but also off the dribble threes and I what I also
think is a part of his game we haven't seen. I don't know if
it's a coaching or a personnel thing to this point, probably a combination of
both. There is a reality where you can get Trey Young moving away off
the ball. It's like you can. Yes, if you put him off
the ball, it does give you someone to stash on him. But like
if you just get him moving, find a way to put him in off
ball actions. No, you don't want Trey Young being your screener, but
can you set screens for Trey Young to come off of when he doesn't have
the ball. I don't know that John Morant is ever gonna profile. Maybe
he's a cutter, but like as a distant shooter or to put pressure on
the defense from that way, I respect, not respect, because I respect
the hell to John Morant. I think I value Trey Young's offense more than
I value what he's giving you giving back on defense to where it's easier.
If Rand's gotten better with that defensively this season, especially when he came back
after his ankle injured or news bring whatever it was. So it's close and
John Morant I wouldn't have put him in this conversation before the season. Definitely
not about this. They should at least consider the fact John Rand has worked
in way, or the fact that right now you have to pick John Ran
over Zion Williamson. That wasn't even know who you got at this point for
us because it's just like it has to be a job. So the other
thing here is that this is a long term conversation, and I think that
they're at fairly comparable levels at the moment, and that means that I'm thinking
about how much more rumorous for growth, how much better is Trey Young going
to get? I think what the Hawks are hoping for is you see more
of the scene, Like he's probably not going to suddenly become an even better
three point shooter. He's already one of the best pastors in the league.
He does not have the physical skill set to be even a decent defender,
So maybe he gets a little smarter on that end. Down the road,
he learns how to use some veteran tricks and become somewhat better on the defensive
end. With John Morant, I feel like there's a path to so much
more than we're already seeing, because he does have the tools to become an
impact defender, and we so often see that that lags behind the offensive growth
because that first season of being the unquestioned centerpiece of everything that happens on offense
requires such an extreme energy expenditure that you can't also grow on defense as you
become more accustomed to filling that role. You see the subsequent gains on the
preventing end. He's shooting thirty four percent from three, but he's a good
free throw shooter. The form is there. It seems reasonable to assume that
he might not become that off the dribble three point shooter Trey Young, Steph
Curry, Damian Lillard are, but that he could be a thirty eight percent
three point shooter taking four to five attempts per game. So I see more
room for growth beyond this current level from John Morant than I do Trey Young.
So that's interesting. It's funny that I'm higher on Trey Young in this
situation than you are. That's hysterical. I think it's close. It's a
fair question to have. It is a fair question. So I'll get to
the dark wing Duck one. Since I'll be honest, I don't I don't
get the question either, all right, dark wing Duck. We need clarification.
Yeah, if you hear this, you need clarification on it. I
did look up to make sure that I could pronounce one of the names correctly
though that he said, because I knew I would suck it. Up,
but I do know how to pronounce it correctly now. I just the question
was tough for me to synthesize. Here's one that I don't know if it
like if people would even care. But who you got, Herb Jones or
Matiste Tybel. I'll take herb Jones just because he can do more. There's
there's the elements he can do more on offense and the other thing I think,
and I don't know if I'm right here, but like Herb Jones is
you go cover that guy and erase him from the planet or make his life
hell. That's not really what Matiste Tybel does. Matist Table, for his
defensive reputation, is somewhat overrated as an on ball defender. He is just
a planet destroying menace off the ball, but on the ball not quite that
same caliber Herb Jones is. I see like a higher scalable ceiling on defense
for Herb Jones plus the offensive game that he's already displaying as a rookie.
It's it's inconsistent, but you can see the pieces there. So I do
think that if the we we talked about this on a recent episode, where
like I think there's more of or actually no, it wasn't with you.
I talked about this with was it with you? Like else behind my but
I did. I did the guest appearance with Tony east On locked on pacers.
But there was a conversation and this is how like just mentally frieda I
am about whether there's going to be more prominence to like the the dunker's role
big time defensive stopping. That was with you, right, Gary Payden and
you know guys who yeah, yeah. So I think like if the NBA
does trend more in that direction, there should be an opportunity for Tyble to
play bigger minutes because there's so much floor spacing everywhere, there's so much offensive
creation anywhere, everywhere and anywhere that you can easily station a guy in that
dunker spot on offense in a way that allows you to not hinder your team's
performance there and get thirty minutes of defensive excellence out of him. We're not
seeing that yet. So without that specialization route, I just don't know what
the argument is for Tyble here. I think there's an argument just because he
is doing things away from the ball or and passingly that we've just never like
he's fucking suffocating, He's a blink, He's an eclipse in those situations.
This one, we're obligated to do. LaMelo Ball or Anthony Edwards. Who
you got? I think I'm on Anthony Edwards decide at this point. Just
wow, yeah, yeah, just the scoring ability is just supreme. It
feels like he continues to understand how to read defense is better. He's showing
more and more defensive ability as his second year has progressed, and I feel
like we've seen a little bit of stagnation from LaMelo Ball. He has the
really flashy plays, but he still makes a lot of bad decisions. He
still tries to do too much on a regular basis, and that'll be worked
out of his game as he continues to mature at the NBA level. And
he's obviously just ridiculously talented and so impactful on the offensive end and increasingly so
on the defensive end. But it's hard. You can't teach the athleticism that
Edwards has, and he is learning how to harness it more and more for
a team that I would say is better by a significant amount. Like granted,
Lamello doesn't have the ability to play with Karl Anthony Towns as Edwards does.
But Edwards is feeling a pretty huge role for a pretty good, very
feisty Timberwolves team. I get the concerns there with Lamello especially, and they've
tried to change his role a little bit in Charlotte, and as one of
our listeners point out, I think Jake g and that made me look into
it like they've tried to move him off the ball more to simplify his role.
He's just he's so much more central in a vacuum to what Charlotte does
because he has to be in a way that Anthony Edwards doesn't have to be
because you also have Delo, you have Karl Anthony Towns. And yeah,
I know that Charlotte has Goren Award, but at the end of the day
sometimes, yeah, That's what I was gonna say, is he's been out
for roughly forever at this point, and there's Miles Bridges, Miles Bridges in
Karl Anthony Towns, there's Terry Rozier. Terry Rozier probably isn't Delo when it
comes to offense. The year's just better off with a streamlined role for Terry
Rozier, better shooter, He's been really good lately. That's fair enough.
Would you take Delo or Rosier? That's not who you got that. I
think I'd take Rosier. Wow, Okay, he's easier to fit, Yeah,
but I don't when it clicks, it clicks like Deal is surprisingly steady
for as tumultuous as his first few seasons in the NBA were. But I
don't know how much more there is to glean from that profile. I'd take
dealough there's like no justification there. I still think it's Lamello. He's a
transcendent playmaker, and this is someone who if he gets a little bit better,
and I think the thing I mentioned, if he's playing off the ball
more, maybe that opens things up to where they can get him moving downhill
without the ball in his hands, and it improves his finishing and pet around
the Raymond path ways to the basket. Like there's already a real like in
between game from him. He is also the fact that you can move him
off the ball. That's not an option that you have with like try Young
just they don't move him off the ball in Atlanta. He's been a better
shooter than I expected. I like his size, and I think Anthony Edwards.
The off ball defensive improvement for him has been real. I think Lamello
is gonna end up being like one of the better backcourt defenders by the time
that his career is all not of all times, such good hands, such
good anticipation, I can see it. I don't know if the personnels optimized
him. I also want to see him play with a big that sort of
makes sense at both ends to play alongside him. It's not plumbly, it's
not tres. They make different levels of sense in certain situations, like if
you gave him Myles turn and that's not a huge ask when Anthy Edward car
up, when Anthony Edwards has like Karl Anthony Towns. So should we push
for Rudy Gobert here again, Rio Bart Charlotte would be there's your there it
is if you give the Mellow with Rudy Gobert or Anthony Edwards with Karl Anthony
Towns. Oh, I don't know there, that's a fun one. I'd
probably go Edwards with Towns because I am so high on Karl Anthony right,
Yeah, I think I'm still there. But that fit with Ball and Gobert
on both ends would just be immaculate. The how is that for who you
got? The I have a team one for you, these three teams for
the next five years, Boston, Dallas, and Memphis. Who you got
I would still go with Memphis first man. That's a that's just an incredibly
tricky one, you know. I think Luca is the most exciting player on
any of the three. No disrespect to John Moran, Obviously, lucas the
most exciting us not from a highlight perspective, but like in terms of this
conversation and what they could do. Right. So, Okay, I'll clarify
and say Luca is the best player in this situation. But I just don't
trust the Mavericks organization. I don't know that I count on them making good
free agent decisions. I don't know that I trust Jason Kidd at head coach,
even though he is unquestionably having a good first season there as we speak.
I don't know that I trust the supporting cast right now. I mean,
who's who are the second and third best players in Dallas long term?
Like, we don't even really have definitive answers to that question. In Boston,
you have a much better infrastructure. I'm super high in what Imaudoka has
done as a head coach. I mean just even looking just at the role
that he's carved out for Robert Williams the third, you have Jason Tatum and
Jalen Brown. But then we get to Memphis and John Morant is at least
in the best player conversation alongside Tatum and Don Chich And there is just so
much depth across the board. A great complimentary player in Jaren Jackson Jr.
Another great complimentary player with all star upside in Desmond Bane. I think I
think I'm still Memphis one, Boston two, Dallas three. I have Dallas
third. I'd have Boston one. Just your two building boxes Jalen Brown and
Jayson Tatum and being able to fill out from there and even just like the
movies, the moves that they could still make because of the players they have.
Where Marcus Smart, Robert Williams the third, Derek White, all those
guys are assets by themselves both for you. But Boston probably has of this
bunch, the best, third, fourth, and fifth best player of the
three teams. That's important. What is Jalen Brown? Though? Because I
still don't know, No, I genuinely still don't know. I mean he
is, he is an All Star when he's healthy. But we've also seen
some pretty prolonged shooting slumps. We've seen juniors never had those, never ever,
not a single one. He's never missed a shot. I just know
I'm not I'm not comparing him to anyone else. I mean he is,
he is the best second option of the bunch, But I don't know,
like the extent to which that's a selling point right now, because if if
I made you pick right now, how many more times does Jalen Brown represent
the Eastern Conference in an All Star game? You want an exact number,
you're gonna give me? No, just yeah? Over under his zero point
five? Oh, I take the over, you would see, I don't.
I don't know that I'm there right now, Like I think that he
I could see him being that like Gordon Hayward level where he's always in the
conversation. But maybe doesn't make it all right, that's fair enough. I
have another team one for you were First of all, we're not that far
off. You had Memphis, we both have Dallas. The third. I
don't know why you would like I had to think about it. I don't
know why you would trust the organization in Dallas at the moment, Like Luca
is clearly the best player, but just of all the stuff like the dis
dispute now with Donnie Nelson and the organization where every single side comes off looking
like just smelling like shit in this and it's not the first time, no,
and it's not, and it's you know, why people were inclined to
believe the initial report or the lawsuit from Donnie Nelson because the Maveris organization has
a history of like sexual harassment problems within there, like of misogyny and just
toxic workplace. So I get why people weren't going to give him benefit of
the doubt. I would never like actually comment into this because both sides.
First all, Donnie Nelson was there for everything, and so I can't look
at him as like a voice for the victims. I'm like, the only
people that I'm worried about are the potential victims in this, and that's but
again I don't want to get into that. My point is, I don't
know why you would trust d Alice to do the right thing. The Persinias
train seems to be working out, but they've had like these big aspirations many
times over, and if with they were able to put a championship team around
Dirk. But we have to wait for a year fifteen of Luca for that
to happen. I don't actually know what year it wasn't, but I just
said that I have another team one for you. Last couple of ones here.
I think you're are you right? He was? He was drafted in
ninety seven, right, I'll look at one in twenty eleven, so I
guess that would be year fourteen. This is important stuff. It was year
thirteen, so I wasn't that far off. Well, years he drafted.
He his first year in the NBA was ninety nine. He was like,
oh, I was off one year, okay, So I was just thinking,
so we have another, Like we have another nine years ago before Luca
wins his first title. This one's interesting to me, and I feel like
no one's gonna appreciate it, except for maybe you who you got as they
entered these new eras Portland or San Antonio. Mm hmm, san Antonio.
You just think. I think that Portland has the obvious top centerpiece in Damian
Lillard for now. And that's the biggest thing is that with san Antonio,
like it has Dejante Murray, it has other potential building blocks. It has
a front office that has con instantly unearthed quality pieces. And with Portland it
set itself up really nicely with a bunch of draft picks with a lot of
cap space. What if Lillard wants out, Like, yeah, it's it's
nice to say that you're entering this restructure around him, and you know,
if it works, awesome, But what if it doesn't? And I don't
I don't think san Antonio has that blow it up and have to start totally
from scratch again scenario here. So this might be another one where yeah,
I mean, if everything goes right, you're taking the Blazers. But the
chances of everything going right are pretty darn small. And I think that's why
the Spurs are the answer, because they have more variety at their disposal right
now when looking at their direction. Even if you keep Dame the flexibility that
you've prioritized, let's see what it becomes. First, Portland's not traditionally been
a team that players flock towards, and so I thought it was an interesting
one though, because you still have Dame and a ton of flexibility Anthony Simon's
the fact that he was playing so well before he was shut down on a
team that was bad, and like playing alongside Trend and Watford, who's not
He's been actually kind of fun the way he moved away from the ball.
But that's besides my point that his performance translated that Yusef Nurkis was playing better
before he got injured. There's actual like Josh Hart went off for like a
zillion points the other night. Josh Hart is legitimately good. There is that's
like the least spicy thing that you've ever had on this But I thought it
was a conversation. And if you keep Dame, I think it actually makes
the Blazer's case, would you say stronger or weaker to go over the Spurs?
Stronger for sure, just because he guarantees a higher floor. I think
I'm with you. But there's also value in the unknown and right it's like,
okay, you have Dame, what are you turning a flexibility into?
We have to wait and say I'm inclined to go San Antonio as well.
This one was going around on Twitter a week or two ago and I can't
remember who put it out there. Jordan Pool or Tyler Hero. Who you
Got? I am so this might be the one I'm most on the fence
about because we talked in a recent episode about how Tyler Hero deserves to be
a Max Extension candidate. But I also just maybe I'm biased here because Jordan
Pool. I'll I will spoil this now, Jordan Pool is going to be
on my all Hardwoodknox team. I just I love watching how he operates and
the aesthetics of his game, just the pull up shooting, the finishing ability
around the basket, some of the feistiness that you occasionally see on defense,
the growing playmaking ability. So he might be my pick here, but I'm
I'm just like, I'm not sure can you sell me on either one?
Like, do you have a definitive answer? Because this, to me might
be this single best who you got? Because I just I don't know.
I have Tyler Hero because I think I just appreciate the level of difficulty on
the shots he can hit at the clip that he hits them, and Jordan
Pool has a little bit of that in him. Any is the better finisher
around the rim. I think Tyler Hero is the higher ceiling. If you're
going to ask someone to run in offense, though, and when you get
into a playoff setting, and I don't on the teams they're on now,
neither of these guys that they're fully health They're going to ask to be even
the second best player on their teams, right Tyler, Hero's game to me
feels like on offense specifically, feels like it will be way more valuable,
or maybe not way more, but we'll end up being more valuable in the
playoffs. See. The reason I would push back a little bit there is
because while Hero's ability to convert these difficult shots is a testament to his skill
as an offensive player, I have yet to see him be able to create
on a consistent basis non difficult shots. And he is ultimately operating in a
role in which he's often going against backups. Sometimes he's playing alongside the heat's
true stars in a way that he should be able to create easier looks.
I have seen Pool do that. I get it. It's great to be
able to hit difficult shots. It's better to not have to take difficult shots.
And I think Pool is better at earning those easier looks at this stage
than Hero is. Hero could get there. Pool is the more efficient player,
and I do think he's a better passer than people realize that. A
lot of it has to do with I think who he's passing to at certain
points. Right it's close, I would still lean Hero here because his feels
like it can be higher if his role has ever expanded, whereas we might
be witnessing this is the best version of Jordan Pool and because of what Tyler
Hero does, if you need Jordan Pool to be better than you're let's say
fourth best player, to me, there are more limitations on your team,
and if you needed Tyler Hero, it'll be better than your fourth best I
think I'm I think I'm going with Pool here, but I'm more like dipping
my toe in than jumping all the way in. They're just like when you
look at their numbers this season two, which is not something I did before.
You're having this as if we record is just so incredibly close. Twenty
three point three points per thirty six minutes for Tyler Hero, twenty one point
two for Jordan Pool, four point five assists for thirty six for Jordan Pool,
four point two for Tyler Hero, Jordan Pool sixty point one true shooting
that matters and then you have Tyler Hero fifty six point one. That's also
you're probably taking Pool on defense, right, Yeah, you're probably taking Pool.
Just ability for Pool to get to the free throw line I think is
incumbent of his shot selection. He's going to get there more frequently, and
he shoots over ninety percent the foul line. But Tyler, you're shooting eighty
seven point one percent. That's just not that's that's splitting already. Thrice split
hairs there. That's an that might be the most interesting one. I think
it's the best one. Did you have any others that you wanted to get
to? I thought about giving you Austin Reeves or talent Horton Tucker. Who
you got. I'm just watching a game that should be on national TV and
isn't because the Lakers are Austin Reeves is pumping drive game Man. Just something
to watch that feels like the best place to end, though, is with
the Pool versus Hero one. That's I think so too. If you have
ones that you want us to do, or you want a different episode where
we do even more crowd solicitation. We didn't take any from Twitter this time.
That's something will definitely certainly consider doing down the road. This was fun
and it's a very instructive thought exercise, both in the moment as you're prepping
for it. If you've made it this far, please, please, pretty
please remember to rate, review, and subscribe to us wherever you get your
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appreciate those recommendations until next time that we use a shout out to the One,
the only, the King of who we got and would win every single
scenario that he was thrust into, but we didn't feel it was fair to
foist him into any of these discussions since it would just mean unjust outcome to
the people who was going up against frankill Game