1 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,120 We're back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Trishinsky, 2 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,199 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:24,199 --> 00:00:28,239 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on x at FDR LST, 4 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:32,119 make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts, and of course to 5 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:36,520 the premium version of the Federalist dot com as well. Today we are joined 6 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:40,600 by a professor at the Catholic University of America, Catherine Pacolic. She's the 7 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:44,479 author of a new book. It is out now. It is called Hannah's 8 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:49,439 Children, The Women Quietly Defying the Birth Dearth. Catherine, thank you so 9 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:53,560 much for joining us. You're welcome, all right, So tell us a 10 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,280 little bit about I think this is your first time on Federalist Radio Hour. 11 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,439 If you could just tell us a little bit about your little background in your 12 00:00:59,479 --> 00:01:03,920 career and how you got to where you are writing this book on the women 13 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,760 who are quietly defying the Birth Dearth with that great rhyme in it. Yeah. 14 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:11,719 Sorry, it's a bit of a mouthful, right, this title east 15 00:01:11,719 --> 00:01:15,120 great. Later we can talk about how the book got this strange long mouthful 16 00:01:15,159 --> 00:01:19,159 of the title. There's actually a story there, which isn't a bad story, 17 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:23,159 but I'm not unhappy with it. Yeah. So I teach at the 18 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:27,280 Catholic University of America, So I'm kind of like a lot of people. 19 00:01:27,719 --> 00:01:30,400 Maybe I practice what I preach, or at least I practiced what I write 20 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:34,120 about, which is sort of I call this like my second career I had. 21 00:01:34,799 --> 00:01:38,120 I you know, went to grad school and right after well, let's 22 00:01:38,239 --> 00:01:42,200 right before I got married. After college, this was like the year nineteen 23 00:01:42,239 --> 00:01:46,319 ninety eight ninety nine, hoped we would be blessed with children. We were 24 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:49,359 blessed with children. So I really took my time goving through graduate school. 25 00:01:49,719 --> 00:01:52,519 And that has its ups and its downs. You know that you go through 26 00:01:52,519 --> 00:01:53,920 graduate school and you're kind of you know, are you doing the mom thing 27 00:01:55,000 --> 00:02:00,319 right? So you're worried about getting relegated to second class citizenship and all those 28 00:02:00,359 --> 00:02:01,400 things. And I was at Harvard, which is a you know, a 29 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:05,519 place where you have a lot of people, well people don't have kids when 30 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:07,120 they're when they're doing their PhD. People look at you like, oh, 31 00:02:07,159 --> 00:02:10,439 so you're like not gonna have a You're not going to do anything anymore. 32 00:02:10,479 --> 00:02:14,719 You're just gonna drop out and you're like, well, I wasn't planning to 33 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:16,520 drop out, but you know, maybe I'm on a slightly slowered track. 34 00:02:16,759 --> 00:02:20,680 No, So that was me for a lot of time, for a lot 35 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,759 of years. It was like twelve years, and we were blessed with lots 36 00:02:23,759 --> 00:02:25,879 of kids, more kids than we expected to be blessed with. So I 37 00:02:25,879 --> 00:02:30,599 had six kids in graduate school and then got out of grad school and thought, 38 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:31,240 you know, I finished. You know, that was like a miracle. 39 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,360 I thought, well, this is really great. I finished, and 40 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,680 now just kind of write books, right, And but then I had an 41 00:02:37,719 --> 00:02:40,960 opportunity to start teaching at Auvy Marie University in Florida. My husband also is 42 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,800 a professor, and so we went there together and we kind of gave it 43 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,840 a shot. Could we do this joint teaching thing? And I super loved 44 00:02:47,879 --> 00:02:51,719 it, and you know, we lived across the street from university, made 45 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:55,680 a lot of great friends, and basically, you know, continue to raise 46 00:02:55,680 --> 00:03:00,319 my children. And then about eight years ago we came up here to Ethic 47 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:02,840 University, and my kids were older, and so I was able to kind 48 00:03:02,879 --> 00:03:07,680 of consider a tenure track position, which requires more research. And so that's 49 00:03:07,719 --> 00:03:10,000 been the last few years. Was kind of working on some old research from 50 00:03:10,039 --> 00:03:14,120 grad school and kind of chewing on something bigger, like what was the bigger 51 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,639 thing I thought I could contribute, And so that has its own kind of 52 00:03:16,719 --> 00:03:20,840 genesis. But yeah, that's kind of how I got here, was about 53 00:03:20,879 --> 00:03:23,960 five six years ago, thinking I think this is something I could contribute and 54 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,080 would be useful on a lot of levels, and so I dove in and 55 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:30,199 it's been a long process. Yeah, about six years. Let's just pause 56 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:34,599 though for a second. Do you have six children while doing grad school? 57 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:40,120 I did? I did. That's amazing. Yeah, it was well, 58 00:03:40,199 --> 00:03:43,560 yeah, I mean you don't think of yourself as amazing, but I know 59 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,800 that it surprises people. But I will say that there's a there's a photo 60 00:03:46,919 --> 00:03:51,080 which I could I could share with with you later, but that was kind 61 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,840 of an iconic photo that was part of this tweet storm about six years ago 62 00:03:54,159 --> 00:03:59,759 when I started this research. Around that same time I was contemplating this project, 63 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,039 the President of France had this, like, you know, pompous thing 64 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:04,360 that he said about how if we could just get all the women in school, 65 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:08,400 they would stop having babies. And of course he's referring to brown people 66 00:04:08,439 --> 00:04:11,560 in Africa and not you know, not anybody else, because it would be 67 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:15,360 good if they stopped having babies, right, So it's really obnoxious and I 68 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:16,680 thought, well, this is ridiculous. So I kind of tweeted a photo 69 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,279 of myself with my six kids in my graduation gown and I was like, 70 00:04:20,319 --> 00:04:24,240 well, yeah, so not everybody's going to get a degree and then stop 71 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,399 having kids. And anyway, I woke up in the morning, it was 72 00:04:27,439 --> 00:04:30,399 like, oh, two hundred thousand people looked at that, and so it 73 00:04:30,439 --> 00:04:34,000 went around. It was really super fun. But yeah, so I mean 74 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:38,319 I just didn't want to gloss over like so spectacular and it's so relevant to 75 00:04:38,399 --> 00:04:42,959 what you wrote. Yeah, and you know, just being around young conservative 76 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,120 women as I'm sure you are and you've been a teacher. Yeah. But 77 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,000 from my perspective, that's one of the questions you get all the time is 78 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:53,560 they're sort of caught between this rock and hard place. They don't know if 79 00:04:53,600 --> 00:05:00,360 they're being told to go into the world as sort of working professionals and their 80 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:06,800 lives into these these career oriented missions, or if they're being called, you 81 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:12,720 know, into the domestic space specifically and to because we can get into the 82 00:05:12,759 --> 00:05:16,040 whole like trad conversation everything too. Yeah, for young women, not just 83 00:05:16,079 --> 00:05:20,319 conservative women, but also just young women of faith. I'm sure you're asked 84 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,199 all the time how you did it, how you can both, how it 85 00:05:24,199 --> 00:05:26,879 feels like you had it all. What do you say when people ask you 86 00:05:26,879 --> 00:05:30,480 that? Yeah, so I like to say that you can do a lot 87 00:05:30,519 --> 00:05:34,199 of things, but you have to be okay to like, I don't know 88 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:36,879 how to put it, like, you're not going to have everything at the 89 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:42,560 same time, right, and then actually you don't have to make certain decisions 90 00:05:42,759 --> 00:05:44,800 before you have to make them. So a lot of times I hear young 91 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:46,439 women say, well, you know, I know I want to have a 92 00:05:46,439 --> 00:05:47,439 family, so I kind of think maybe I shouldn't go to grad school. 93 00:05:47,439 --> 00:05:49,319 And I'm looking at them like, well, you're not dating it. I 94 00:05:49,319 --> 00:05:53,120 mean, well why not go to grad school? Like it's actually works in 95 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:55,600 their way, like, you know, seize the moment you've got that in 96 00:05:55,639 --> 00:05:58,279 front of you. In fact, I often tell young women like get the 97 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:00,120 you know, get the things done now that you can't do later. Don't 98 00:06:00,199 --> 00:06:02,720 don't work, and then go back to grad school. Get the grad school 99 00:06:02,759 --> 00:06:08,000 done now. So what I always say is sort of the thing that's key 100 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:13,800 is to prioritize family, because family is this like it's a clock that ticks, 101 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:15,360 right. I mean, you can't You can't as easily start a family 102 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:18,720 in your thirties as you can younger. Not everybody meets the right spouse when 103 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:21,079 they're young. But if you do meet the right spouse, like, don't 104 00:06:21,079 --> 00:06:24,879 have any qualms about it, you can prioritize that. And actually it's never 105 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:28,920 been easier to sort of fit the passions and the interests that you have into 106 00:06:28,959 --> 00:06:31,399 the interstitial spaces around having children. But you just have to give it its 107 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,480 due, right, it has its time. And so you know, while 108 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:39,800 it sounds amazing, and you're really gracious to say that it's amazing that I 109 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:43,000 had six children in grad school, I just want to make it really clear 110 00:06:43,319 --> 00:06:46,480 that on the inside it felt like being a failure, right, But that's 111 00:06:46,519 --> 00:06:48,959 okay, Like you can live with feeling like a failure for a while. 112 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:56,360 Why because on the inside nobody finished is there, Like like my peers in 113 00:06:56,399 --> 00:07:00,600 grad school had tenure before I finished my PhD. That feels like I'm not 114 00:07:00,639 --> 00:07:03,639 going to go anywhere with this or I can't make a contribution, you know, 115 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:08,639 But you know, persevering, you just kind of stick with you. 116 00:07:08,639 --> 00:07:09,959 You go, Okay, my, you know what. Look, I have 117 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,600 all this richness, I have the things that I cared most about. I 118 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,439 put those things first, and you know, God, I do think God, 119 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,800 you know open stores that we don't always see at the beginning. So 120 00:07:19,079 --> 00:07:21,800 I know that's was that clear without a good answer, and this is like, 121 00:07:23,199 --> 00:07:26,279 you know what I'm getting at here, that's an incredible answer. No, 122 00:07:26,399 --> 00:07:29,399 I think that, yeah, makes a lot of sense. And it's 123 00:07:29,399 --> 00:07:32,800 one that I've heard from other women in similar situations. Not that there are 124 00:07:32,839 --> 00:07:38,079 a lot of you who have managed to have all of this, but when 125 00:07:38,079 --> 00:07:42,879 people do, I hear similar things from them, And you know that's I 126 00:07:42,879 --> 00:07:46,600 think it's just sorting out your priorities right, and just putting first things first 127 00:07:46,839 --> 00:07:48,639 and having a great partner too. I would imagine that's, you know, 128 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:53,879 maybe the biggest piece of the puzzle. Yeah, it is a huge piece 129 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,759 of the puzzle. Yeah. Absolutely. And yeah, and I want to 130 00:07:57,839 --> 00:08:00,959 agree that your your point of about the TRAADWAF conver that's happening right now. 131 00:08:00,959 --> 00:08:01,800 I mean, these things are kind of fraud and they're kind of like, 132 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:05,120 from my perspective, a tiny bit silly because when you've kind of gone through 133 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,160 it for thirty years, you're like, okay, ladies, like, calm 134 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:09,439 down, it's going to be fine. It's going to be all right. 135 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:13,399 You don't have to pick between like little house and the prairie and like, 136 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,480 you know, girl boss, it is actually, you know, probably a 137 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:18,759 good life. Like a lot of things. It's you know, it's going 138 00:08:18,839 --> 00:08:22,759 to reflect like to the different colors in you. And you don't have to 139 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:24,480 see the future. You know, you don't have to like map it out, 140 00:08:24,519 --> 00:08:28,920 and you don't even have to decide you can you can. Now, 141 00:08:28,959 --> 00:08:31,360 I don't want to sound like I'm selling a bill of goods. It's just 142 00:08:31,399 --> 00:08:33,720 that the longer term perspective. Yes, you have to say notice and things. 143 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:37,279 The great partner. Yeah, I don't want to minimize that. My 144 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:41,559 husband's a professor. We share this life. It's kind of the family business. 145 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,720 I thank him well, after God, he's the first person thinked in 146 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:48,919 my book and I say that a great spouse is the silent co author on 147 00:08:50,039 --> 00:08:54,080 anything that you produce or your work. So yeah, we're both very conscious 148 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:58,399 to that and super grateful. Yeah. Yeah, no, that makes a 149 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,559 lot of sense. Yeah, Yeah, it's just it's wonderful. I think 150 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:05,159 a very helpful a reminder as well. For I just young women are so 151 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,879 confused and we can talk about them a little bit and we can't. Yeah, 152 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:11,679 can you tell us you hinted that there's something interesting, an interesting story 153 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:15,600 behind the title. Can you tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, 154 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,519 maybe it would be just given the conversation we just had, this is 155 00:09:18,519 --> 00:09:22,399 a really good moment to transition to that. So one of the problems if 156 00:09:22,399 --> 00:09:24,919 you're going to write about people who have like, let's say, above average 157 00:09:24,919 --> 00:09:30,440 family sizes, one of the problems you have is the concern that you're kind 158 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:35,080 of aiming to normalize a number of children in particular, or kind of create 159 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:39,320 some kind of you know, positive So it's actually I didn't want to do 160 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:43,200 that, and I didn't. It wasn't something that I heard about from lots 161 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:45,559 of So with the women I met who had five, six, seven, 162 00:09:45,759 --> 00:09:48,720 you know, ten, twelve children, none of them set out to have 163 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:52,879 ten children, Like I didn't set out to heavy eight, right, I 164 00:09:52,919 --> 00:09:56,600 didn't. And so the whole question is like this civilizational question, like how 165 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:00,840 do people say they want to have three kids but end up with one? 166 00:10:01,039 --> 00:10:03,639 Like how does that exactly happen, right, this is what's happening around the 167 00:10:03,759 --> 00:10:07,440 around. So we've got this whole quirky question of what people desire, what 168 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:11,559 they want. We talk about fertility desires, we talk about their intentions for 169 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,799 marriage and all these sorts of things. And one of the things that I 170 00:10:15,919 --> 00:10:20,159 discovered and talking to people, talking to women I talk to for this book, 171 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:22,080 is that I think life is more complicated, right, like, like 172 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:26,360 we often desire things that are in conflict. Like just we were just talking 173 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:30,200 about we want to do this, we want to do that, and so 174 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:37,840 that we can't actually read patterns of success or like we can't read recipes for 175 00:10:37,879 --> 00:10:39,919 success by just kind of like saying, well, I desire this, therefore 176 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:41,720 will happen. I Mean, we think about like, oh, we all 177 00:10:41,759 --> 00:10:46,080 want to lose weight, but we want to It's not like we don't want 178 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:50,399 to, right, but we don't succeed a lot of the time, or 179 00:10:50,399 --> 00:10:52,519 maybe most of the time, and we could keep going, right, Like 180 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:54,840 I'd like to get more exercise and I don't more of the time. So 181 00:10:54,879 --> 00:10:58,559 one of the things I'm really working on in this book is kind of like 182 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:03,399 what does it mean to desire things? And what does it mean to desire 183 00:11:03,399 --> 00:11:05,279 things maybe that are in conflict, And I think that's a big piece to 184 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:11,279 the story of following birth rates in this country. And so, okay, 185 00:11:11,279 --> 00:11:15,399 back to the title. Okay, so one hundred percent this book was not 186 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:20,360 going to be called big families or women with lots of children because that just 187 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:26,679 wasn't part of the story. And so sorry, something there we go. 188 00:11:26,799 --> 00:11:30,240 So that was the part of the story. So what did I want to 189 00:11:30,279 --> 00:11:33,480 do? Well? The story was sort of more that women I spoke to 190 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:39,159 were conscious of having desires that changed over time, and their desires were shaped 191 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:43,480 by things over time, and so searching for some model for what that is 192 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:48,240 I finally discovered at some point, like actually, the biblical Hannah was a 193 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:52,080 great example. She's somebody whose priorities we were sort of straight in the sense 194 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:56,480 she knew she wanted a child, and she prayed to have a child, 195 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:01,080 but she understood that the blessing of a child was dependent on God's God's blessing, 196 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,480 right, And what does it mean to be dependent on God's blessing? 197 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:07,519 Is that you you kind of accept or you let go of a certain kind 198 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:13,200 of overly planned way of life, and that became this common theme I heard 199 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,200 over and over and over, and so how does that make sense in a 200 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:20,440 larger We could talk about that larger picture, but it was a case where 201 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,200 I wanted to try to describe a kind of attitude about children, and we 202 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:28,120 can you can maybe see where I'm going, right, It's it's definitely not 203 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,159 the attitude of planned parenthood. Right, so as an institution, right, 204 00:12:31,159 --> 00:12:35,799 a planned parenthood is an institution, but this general cultural sense that kind of 205 00:12:35,799 --> 00:12:39,559 the way the way you size up the goodness of having children is like by 206 00:12:39,919 --> 00:12:45,720 subjecting children to a set of standards that is increasingly becoming higher and higher and 207 00:12:45,759 --> 00:12:48,000 higher, right, Like what are the things you have to have in order 208 00:12:48,039 --> 00:12:50,320 before you can have a child? And that that was the common theme was 209 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:54,440 a kind of dependence on God's providence and a trust that God would provide for 210 00:12:54,559 --> 00:13:00,159 children, a very clear sense that got to children who are a blessing and 211 00:13:00,279 --> 00:13:03,840 a wealth that you could you could pursue on their own terms. So yeah, 212 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:09,639 I had to grab an archetype and that archetype is the biblical Hannah and 213 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:13,200 not a sort of an intended family size, because that was exactly the thing 214 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,919 that women were rejecting it's like, I have an intended family size. Does 215 00:13:16,919 --> 00:13:22,919 that make sense? Absolutely? And I was curious to ask you also about 216 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:28,799 the sort of conditioning and how that's affected this, because you know, there's 217 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:33,879 the age old question of culture and economics. Some people see them as two 218 00:13:33,919 --> 00:13:37,080 separate categories, although nobody would argue they're entirely separate from each other. Right, 219 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:41,440 how do you see that, Catherine, Because there's some really interesting kind 220 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:45,320 of material explanations that my friends on the left will attribute this to, you 221 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,320 know, student loan at housing costs, all of that versus the kind of 222 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:52,600 conditioning that you were getting at just now about what you have to do before 223 00:13:52,639 --> 00:13:58,279 you have a child, right right, right? Yeah, So in economics 224 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:05,960 we tend to see the origin of most things as a demand story. And 225 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:09,840 now that's so so part of what I was after, and I'm going to 226 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:11,679 answer your question specifically. Part of what I was after was kind of is 227 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:15,559 this a demand story or a supply story? And so what do I mean? 228 00:14:15,639 --> 00:14:18,360 A demand story would be this is just people who don't want children as 229 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:20,000 much as in the past, right, That would be a demand story. 230 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:24,639 A supply story would be these are people who want the same number of children 231 00:14:24,679 --> 00:14:28,559 as in the past, but they're constrained somehow, right, Like it's housing 232 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:33,519 costs, it's right, So the cost of having children has become you know, 233 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,200 just oppressive, and we can't we can't have children anymore. Right. 234 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:43,960 So that's maybe another way of putting it when we talk about the economics in 235 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:46,720 that sense, you know, is this a demand story or a supply story. 236 00:14:48,679 --> 00:14:50,279 Whenever we get to the demand story, we really are talking about the 237 00:14:50,279 --> 00:14:54,240 cultural side. So that's that's what you mean by the cultural side. So 238 00:14:54,759 --> 00:14:58,399 it's it's rendered, it's it's a story or an explanation or a theory. 239 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:03,480 That's that's it's served up to us in economic terms, But it's a story 240 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:09,600 about kind of cultural dominance, right, It's a cultural story first. But 241 00:15:09,639 --> 00:15:11,799 then what happens like in markets, right, Like, if you want bad 242 00:15:11,879 --> 00:15:18,679 things, markets always can provide you with bad things cheaply and quickly. Right, 243 00:15:18,759 --> 00:15:20,559 So we know that, right, That's one of the best critiques of 244 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,399 the market is that it's too good at getting us what we want, and 245 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:26,679 what we want is bad. It gets us those things too. What that 246 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:31,120 basically means is that when we want fewer children, or when we don't prioritize 247 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:35,559 children against other goods, because there's lots of other goods you could want to 248 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:39,600 have. And I don't have a problem with that, But what we end 249 00:15:39,679 --> 00:15:43,480 up choosing in a sense, ends up telling us like the prices of everything 250 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:48,559 else, right, Like, for instance, we commonly hear today it ought 251 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:50,559 to be possible to raise a child in one income. Right. We're hearing 252 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:52,799 that, I mean obviously from the left, and we're hearing it from a 253 00:15:52,799 --> 00:15:56,600 lot of our friends on the right, like what can we do to fix 254 00:15:56,679 --> 00:15:58,360 things? You know? But I just think, as an economist, will 255 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:03,519 look if it's going to be the case that most families are going to choose 256 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,639 to send two workers into the workforce because that's what they want to do. 257 00:16:07,879 --> 00:16:12,039 It's like you're asking for magic to say that prices will not adjust to a 258 00:16:12,159 --> 00:16:15,480 situations where all the prices are now reflecting the fact that most people want to 259 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:22,080 have two earners out there. So a sense, it's like the the economics 260 00:16:22,159 --> 00:16:23,879 is really downstream from what it is that people want, and the market is 261 00:16:23,879 --> 00:16:27,360 really good at kind of adjusting, right. And and that's so, as 262 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:33,960 you said, it's not there. They're intertwined completely, But usually we see 263 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,879 that kind of the market effects are downstream from the culture, things like which 264 00:16:37,919 --> 00:16:40,879 is just another way? What is it that we want and why do we 265 00:16:40,919 --> 00:16:47,120 want it? Debt? It keeps you tossing and turning at night. You 266 00:16:47,159 --> 00:16:49,240 can't get away from it. But the truth is the system is designed to 267 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:53,840 trap you in debt insanely. I entest credit cards and loans make it nearly 268 00:16:53,879 --> 00:16:57,320 impossible to actually pay off your debt. 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Visit zapmydebt dot com. That's zapmydebt dot com. Zapmdebt dot 278 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:51,279 com. Right, No, that makes sense. Yeah, And Limeanstone has 279 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:55,559 done some great work on how women are having fewer children, Yes, and 280 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,599 they want to ultimately, h can you talk to us a little bit. 281 00:17:59,599 --> 00:18:02,960 I know you're about this in the book How We Ended Up? There is 282 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:07,480 a story of women getting married later with fewer resources. Is a you know, 283 00:18:07,559 --> 00:18:11,559 women starting families too late for different reasons. Maybe it's you know, 284 00:18:11,599 --> 00:18:17,039 really as specific as birth control, uh, hurting fertility. Can you talk 285 00:18:17,039 --> 00:18:19,319 to us a little bit about those factors. Yeah, Yeah, And I 286 00:18:19,599 --> 00:18:22,759 would just want to say, like I love Linemen's work, and I've followed 287 00:18:22,759 --> 00:18:27,920 his work for a decade at least I cite him in the book. But 288 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:33,559 I do always offer this piece of caution about the use of like these simplistic 289 00:18:33,599 --> 00:18:37,200 measures of what women want, just because I think we all want things that 290 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:38,720 are in conflict. Like I do want to eat lots of brownies and I 291 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,119 do want to lose weight. And those two things are things. They're both 292 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,680 things that I want, right, Like, they're both things that I want. 293 00:18:45,279 --> 00:18:48,440 And so when we see that women say that they want to have more 294 00:18:48,519 --> 00:18:52,680 children than they're having, but they're having fewer. We should be cautious to 295 00:18:52,759 --> 00:18:57,240 assume that the result we see is because women are somehow prevented from doing the 296 00:18:57,279 --> 00:19:00,480 thing that they want. Right, right, I'm not being prevented from losing 297 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,200 weight, And it's not that I don't want it, but I probably want 298 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:07,359 to eat brownies more so. I mean, so, you know, ultimately 299 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:11,279 we are, as human beings like bundles of contradictions of our desires. So 300 00:19:11,279 --> 00:19:14,160 that's just a little bit of well noted of caution. That's not to say 301 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:15,559 that I don't think people would be happier if they did have more children. 302 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,960 It's what they say that they want, and you know, so that's so 303 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:22,160 that's just a note of caution about that, the use of like these desires 304 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,720 over time. But how do you also, I like the thought of Linemen 305 00:19:27,039 --> 00:19:32,200 putting himself in the position of mel Gibson and what women want. Yeah, 306 00:19:32,799 --> 00:19:37,920 that's that we shouldn't be that any Yeah, I no, no, it's 307 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,000 true. I just think like, as a woman, you're kind of like, 308 00:19:41,079 --> 00:19:42,599 yeah, I know, women want more children than they're having, But 309 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,440 it doesn't mean that there's a bogey man out there that we could point to 310 00:19:45,559 --> 00:19:48,039 that's kind of like preventing us all from having babies, and like, look 311 00:19:48,039 --> 00:19:51,920 at us, we all want to like wear the size too, and we 312 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,000 all want to eat sticky ons. I mean really like, I don't know 313 00:19:55,039 --> 00:19:56,720 how else to put it than that. I just feel like that's that's okay. 314 00:19:56,759 --> 00:19:59,599 Maybe it maybe takes a woman to say, like, yeah, we're 315 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,640 we're bun contradictions, but that's the contradiction. Actually, is what I want 316 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:06,759 to talk about. When you said how do we get here? So you 317 00:20:06,839 --> 00:20:08,240 know, what you'd have to basically say is like, when we look at 318 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,279 the twentieth century, there's this moment in time and that's really the arrival of 319 00:20:11,319 --> 00:20:15,599 the birth control pill. When and here I would point to the work of 320 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:19,839 Claudia Golden and Larry Kat's famous paper called The Power of the Pill. And 321 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:25,039 what we basically see is that the major inflection point in the twentieth century of 322 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:29,960 women going into the workforce so to speak, married women with children going into 323 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,400 the workforce is really after the arrival of the pill. I mean, nobody 324 00:20:33,519 --> 00:20:37,599 forced women to get on the pill, nobody forced them to go to work. 325 00:20:37,759 --> 00:20:41,880 This was a kind of like slow, organic uptake of something that made 326 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:45,240 it easier to accomplish something that they probably wanted to do. So I think 327 00:20:45,279 --> 00:20:48,200 there's like not a get out of jail free card in this In this sense, 328 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:52,720 I mean speaking again women to women here, and you know, setting 329 00:20:52,799 --> 00:20:59,920 the men interpreters of what women want aside. Basically the minute we could land 330 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,640 are the timing of our births with greater accuracy. We all signed up to 331 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:10,119 do that. The diffusion of the pill in American society is so fast as 332 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,960 to be breathtaking. It wasn't like we needed to incentivize people to use the 333 00:21:14,039 --> 00:21:15,720 bill. It was out there and people were getting it. People women were 334 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,720 getting it for their daughters, right. I mean, they still do, 335 00:21:18,839 --> 00:21:22,279 but this was certainly true in the sixties when Why did women have to get 336 00:21:22,319 --> 00:21:26,119 it for their daughters because it was not supposed to be prescribed for teenagers and 337 00:21:26,279 --> 00:21:30,839 young adults and unmarried people. It was just supposed to be for married people. 338 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,279 So I mean, I just think you have to contend with that fact. 339 00:21:33,319 --> 00:21:36,559 That's what happens is this thing is available that makes it possible to do 340 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:40,400 what to like get the next degree and postpone your child bearing and kind of 341 00:21:40,559 --> 00:21:42,880 really plan your children into that period, you know, a targeted period of 342 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:47,240 time, and that's when this big you know, I call it the new 343 00:21:47,279 --> 00:21:49,519 calculus in the book, I say this is the new calculus. This this 344 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:55,000 basically this technology arrives that allows us to kind of like have our cake, 345 00:21:55,039 --> 00:21:56,119 you eat it too, Like we can have our two kids and we could 346 00:21:56,160 --> 00:22:00,359 do that and we don't have to like be abstinate forever. We still be 347 00:22:00,519 --> 00:22:03,079 coupled up and not be abstinate, and then we can also, you know, 348 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:07,720 whatever pursue our career interests. I'm not trying to describe this as bad. 349 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:12,400 It's just what happened. And I think it's actually super normal to want 350 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,759 to have that kind of control over things. So in a sense, I 351 00:22:15,839 --> 00:22:22,720 am questioning, like how basic the desire to have children is and how easy 352 00:22:22,759 --> 00:22:26,440 it is for us to trade that off against other objectively good goods, Like 353 00:22:26,519 --> 00:22:29,880 it's objectively good to do the things I do. I think what you're doing 354 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,599 is objectively good. And so I think that basically the story of the twentieth 355 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,359 century from the perspective of women is being kind of in a bind, like 356 00:22:37,519 --> 00:22:41,440 looking at a bunch of things we want and wanting them both, and the 357 00:22:41,519 --> 00:22:45,680 solution for both people, for most people, when you have two things you'd 358 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:47,759 like to have, is to have a little bit of both, right, 359 00:22:48,319 --> 00:22:51,680 and your budget constrained. Right, you don't have an unlimited amount of amount 360 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,440 of money. Well, what does it mean to be budget constrained in your 361 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,720 lifetime? That's just being time constrained, right, So you can't have an 362 00:22:57,759 --> 00:23:02,519 infinite number of children and have an infinite number of hours to be in the 363 00:23:02,559 --> 00:23:06,759 workplace. So that's really the story. That's how we got here. And 364 00:23:06,839 --> 00:23:11,400 so that of course, downstream from women going to get more degrees because the 365 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:15,279 pill is available to them means later marriage, right, So Lynman talks about 366 00:23:15,319 --> 00:23:18,599 later marriage, and that's really important. So later our marriage is a big 367 00:23:18,599 --> 00:23:19,640 piece of this. And of course you just wait ten years out and then 368 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,759 there's this whole norm like now you look like a weirdo if you get married 369 00:23:22,759 --> 00:23:26,519 when you're twenty one, right, Like everybody else is getting a master's degree, 370 00:23:26,519 --> 00:23:27,519 and you're like, oh, I want to get married. Unless you're 371 00:23:27,519 --> 00:23:33,000 in the trad community, you're too late. It's too late to twenty one, 372 00:23:33,079 --> 00:23:37,000 right, No, it's so true. So yeah, like you wait 373 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,640 and then all of a sudden, all these other norms move and then you 374 00:23:40,759 --> 00:23:42,960 have this like overt and window problem. So you have this reinforcement of a 375 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,079 thing that at the beginning was like an experiment and well, now all of 376 00:23:47,079 --> 00:23:51,839 a sudden, it becomes norms. So definitely, later marriage, Definitely pursuing 377 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,519 careers prior to having children instead of like kind of what I did, like 378 00:23:55,599 --> 00:23:59,319 have your kids first and then try to have a second career later, which 379 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,680 a lot of people are now recognizing that it's a better approach and recommending it 380 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:03,640 to their kids. But there was a lot of just like, whoh, 381 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,799 this is going to be great. We're all going to be like Wall Street 382 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,759 people and wear those big suits with the shoulder pads in nineteen eighties, you 383 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:12,880 know, I mean that was a and we are seeing, like for college 384 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:17,839 educated women a little bit of an uptick in birth rates kind of a rebound 385 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:22,640 after that nineteen eighties ridiculousness. So yeah, is that everything you asked? 386 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,480 I mean, like, how did we get here? Yeah, it's a 387 00:24:25,519 --> 00:24:27,359 piece of all those things. But the real inflection point, just to be 388 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:32,000 clear, it's not the industrial Revolution. You're going to hear that from a 389 00:24:32,079 --> 00:24:36,400 lot of people. They are problems at the Industrial revolution and capitalism certainly, 390 00:24:36,519 --> 00:24:40,319 but really like if you look at the labor market data, the inflection point 391 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:48,359 is nineteen sixty, you've probably noticed volatility in the market lately. The stock 392 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,960 market has seen unprecedented fluctuations over the last three years, and silver has historically 393 00:24:53,039 --> 00:24:59,400 been considered a safe haven asset during times like this of market volatility. When 394 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,680 that uncertain derises, investors will often turn to precious metals like silver to preserve 395 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:08,680 wealth and to hedge against economic instability. One of the reasons is because silver 396 00:25:08,839 --> 00:25:14,319 is a tangible asset. 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And you write a lot 419 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:11,519 about this, and you mentioned earlier the kind of civilizational Uh, I say, 420 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,640 kind of civilizational. But it's a huge it is a big question, 421 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,240 and I want to ask you that in the context of the sort of transhumanist 422 00:27:18,599 --> 00:27:26,359 IVF, a huge conversation that's been gripping, you know, these news cycles 423 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,519 over the last month or so. Just can you talk to us a little 424 00:27:29,519 --> 00:27:33,160 bit about how transhumanism and I don't I don't see that in a specific sense 425 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,519 of you know, transgenderism or anything. I mean in the sort of sense 426 00:27:37,559 --> 00:27:41,240 of man and machine, you know, melding in ways that they have been 427 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:45,680 since time of Memoriam, but in a way that's accelerated. Right now, 428 00:27:45,599 --> 00:27:48,640 How is all of that you talked to us about the civilizational question, talk 429 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,720 to us about uh, technology and all of that, and how it's sort 430 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:59,480 of snowballing right now. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I mean like 431 00:27:59,519 --> 00:28:02,000 I'm almost overwhelmed, Like yeah, like I just want to say, yeah, 432 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,359 what you said, that's exactly right. It's all stumbling. I mean, 433 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,200 maybe help, Yeah, you already read. I mean, what I'm 434 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:12,240 sort of adding to the conversation is like a reminder that something is simple, 435 00:28:12,319 --> 00:28:15,880 so to speak, Like we don't even think about birth control as being, 436 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,720 you know, in any sense like transhumanist or you know, part of the 437 00:28:18,839 --> 00:28:22,440 machine. But in a sense, maybe I'm kind of pushing us to reconsider 438 00:28:22,519 --> 00:28:26,279 if it's part of the machine. Now. I ended up saying that I 439 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,799 think, like all of these technologies, they end the technologies themselves, are 440 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:36,359 their their capacities to do certain things right, to embrace the different lifestyle. 441 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,599 But what we what we I guess a message something like I learned from my 442 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,839 own book, if that's fair to say, is kind of like in the 443 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:47,440 face of these sorts of things, it's not sufficient to say, well, 444 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:49,160 I don't think that's a good path, like I don't think you know, 445 00:28:49,319 --> 00:28:52,240 maybe this kind of sergacy is good, or any sergacy at all, or 446 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:57,559 we're rejecting IVF. It's not sufficient to outline like, well, you know, 447 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:03,599 maybe somebody thinks birth could role is intrinsically wrong. It doesn't get at 448 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,160 the at the heart of the problem because it's it's right. It's like to 449 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,039 say, like live a good human life would mean like not to murder anybody, 450 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,200 not to like, you know, thief, thief anybody. Like, 451 00:29:12,559 --> 00:29:17,119 Well, it's not just to not commit wrong things, right, A good 452 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:21,079 human life is to kind of understand the meaning of human life and to pattern 453 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:27,079 your life after like we use to use the word civilizational health, like patterns 454 00:29:27,079 --> 00:29:33,559 of civilizational goodness. We could some true well being. Sometimes people say authentic 455 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,319 flourishing, right, So describing that and getting a grip on that, for 456 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,960 me, that was the kind of the gold nugget in this project was that 457 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,200 it's not sufficient to say, well, look like, obviously, if South 458 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,839 Korea is having zero point six children at this point, I mean, like 459 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,319 per woman, Like, that's obviously there's going to be no more Koreans at 460 00:29:52,359 --> 00:29:53,920 some point soon. And we don't want to be like that. But what 461 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:56,680 does it look like to not do that? Like what do you have to 462 00:29:56,759 --> 00:30:00,240 believe and think about? And well would it take to teach those things to 463 00:30:00,279 --> 00:30:03,400 other people? I mean, so I think like, in the face of 464 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,440 this entire calamity that you just described, I feel like that what it really 465 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:11,920 does. I think as conservatives we look a little flat footed. Sometimes we're 466 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:12,920 like, oh, okay, I think I'm against that. I'm against that 467 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,920 too, So you know, it's like it's not sufficient to be you know, 468 00:30:18,559 --> 00:30:21,039 against abortion. I mean, we have to be against abortion, but 469 00:30:21,079 --> 00:30:26,559 we also have to somehow describe the goods that are available to us as persons 470 00:30:26,039 --> 00:30:29,680 when we go ahead and like take the hit, like you take the hit 471 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,720 and you welcome a life when it wasn't like timed right or you right? 472 00:30:33,839 --> 00:30:36,839 So what does that look like? And of course that means we have to 473 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:41,480 sort of be comfortable describing things like sacrifice and suffering and meaning and purpose. 474 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:45,759 So I don't know if that's all too much, but it's somehow to say 475 00:30:45,799 --> 00:30:48,319 that. I think there's like a second job to be done, and describing, 476 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:55,559 not rejecting transhumanism on its own right or solely, but also kind of 477 00:30:55,640 --> 00:31:00,440 describing what it looks like to live this like messy, like hard scrabble kind 478 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:06,599 of complete human life with all of its you know, complication or its conflicting 479 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:11,599 desires and just trying to work it out and rank things properly. That's a 480 00:31:11,799 --> 00:31:15,559 that's a job some of us can devote ourselves to. Yeah, that's so 481 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,880 wonderfully said. I love the way that you put the I could keep going 482 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:25,440 all day. Catherine Pacollock is a professor at the Catholic University of America the 483 00:31:25,519 --> 00:31:27,519 author of the new book. It is out now. It is called Hannah's 484 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:34,319 Children, The Women Quietly Defying the Birth Dearth. It is another exceptional addition 485 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,160 to this conversation in this space. So, Catherine, thank you so much 486 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,880 for joining us. So welcome. Emily. Oh yeah, we'll have to 487 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:48,319 do it again soon. It is so interesting conversation. Yeah, just appreciate 488 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:52,400 it. You're welcome. Oh, sorry, you're welcome. Thank you, 489 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:56,440 Katherine. I'm a Ladyship Ski culture editor here at The Federalist. We'll be 490 00:31:56,519 --> 00:31:59,799 back soon with more. Until then, be lovers of freedom and anxious for 491 00:32:00,119 --> 00:32:00,440 the fray.