What is krack lack In Hardwin Knocks listeners, I am damned valley coming at
you without my fit tabulous co host Adam frommel I told you all we were
going to be going seven days a week until the start of the season.
And if you are listening to this podcast the day it's coming out, which
is a Saturday, September twenty fifth, that's probably proof that I'm not lying.
Since we very rarely published podcasts on the weekend. We have Caitlyn Cooper
from Indie corn Rows on today to help school us on everything Pacers leading into
the twenty one twenty two NBA season. Follow her on Twitter at C two
Underscore. Cooper shows us a piece up right now on five thirty eight on
Eric Gordon, the value of spacing, how defenses react to where guys are
standing, and how spacing is more than just about raw shooting percentages. It's
a fantastic piece. Like everything You're right, so so go check that out
before we dive head first, or maybe I belly flopped into this Pacers discussion,
who really knows. Just gonna unload some feels here very quickly, because
this is a milestone podcasts for Hardwin Knox is our five hundredth full length episode.
We have some trailers I think like three or four of them sprinkled throughout
our feed. This is the five hundred full length episode. We've been around
more than half a decade. We weren't always a multi episode podcast per week.
It was sometimes one a week when we really started this thing at the
beginning, five or six or seven years ago. I don't even know if
we're publishing once a week, so that number is significant to me. Just
how long this podcast has been around. I have been pretty open, Adam
has been pretty open. This is not the biggest league wide podcast around,
not even close. But we do have an audience and we appreciate every single
one of you, and it's a loyal audience. We might not have the
most Twitter engagements. You're fantastic with the mailbags, by the way, in
my dms in the mentions when I send out the solicitation sweets. That's not
a complaint. I think it's just the reality is sometimes it can be hard
to one. We're probably not the most active on social media begin with,
but it can be harder to engage a community where you're not covering one specific
market or team and have that built in goodwill there. We still do have
a community here, and you guys not only did you show up through the
pandemic or at the peak of the pandemic, I don't even know how to
phrase, but when things were shut down, when the league was shut down,
downloads across the board for pretty much every podcast like they were hurting,
including hours, but it was not down by that much relative to where we
were at the time. And so you guys have always showed up. You
show up for these single team look aheads where we're gonna go if we're talking
an hour about the Indiana Pacers, or if I go in ninety minutes on
the Charlotte Hornets spoiler alert, maybe for the next podcast that comes out.
The downloads are there, You guys are listening, you're engaging. I am
forever super appreciative of it. We did have something special, I say,
planned for you for the fifth hundred episode, but it was really more of
a vanity project at that point because it was something that I would have always
wanted to do Adam and I never last minute scheduling conflicted. Basically, we're
supposed to have it ready and just didn't. I won't tease it any more
than this because we might still go to it in the future. And I
did tease it at one point on Twitter a couple of weeks ago, so
you might have even seen it. So that's as much as I'll give away
about it. Doing this podcast with Kaitlyn no and I'd not tell her she
was going to be on the five hundredth episode, and this is not supposed
to be some sort of a big event, but she was one of the
first when we actively decided that we need to bring on guests. She was
one of our original guests that came on, was kind enough to give us
so much of her time, and she has over the years, and she's
always been great, but she's really blown up over the past few years.
And if you're not following her on Twitter again at C two Underscore Cooper,
I don't know what the hell you're doing with your life. But she has
blown up, and yet she's still nice enough to come on this podcast,
this rinky Dink independent you know, sub mediocre NBA podcast and talk basketball with
us two three times a year. We've only had one other guest on more
often than her at this point. She actually just broke a tie with Tara
Bow and Biggs, who covers the Blazers, host of the what podcast.
We have a take podcast. Excuse me, that's great, check that out.
She'll be coming on soon too. But Kaitlin, they're like every time
they come on, they sort of tie each other. But Katla's now moved
to head of her. That's not really titled to be proud of. I
guess to come on this podcast so often. But my point being, and
it's not just and I again, I didn't tell Cayton listen to the five
hundred episode that she was coming on for. I actually told her that I
was moving up when I was publishing this episode. It's not supposed to be
special, but I'm just thankful for her and every single other guest that gives
us so much of their time and keeps coming back. I say, if
I ask you once, if I ask you twice, like that's fair,
I'm maybe have hoodwink you into coming on. If you're coming back three plus
four plus five plus times. At that point, it's a decision. And
I appreciate all of our guests. I appreciate all of our listeners. We
will continue to try and grow that's a good segue to say, hey,
subscribe to us wherever you get your podcast down on every episode ron YouTube as
well. Once we get to one case subscribers, we will start doing YouTube
live sessions, more YouTube exclusives than we've done, and we have done some
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hard Knox will come up. Follow us on Twitter at Hardwood Knox. But
just wanted to take a moment to to thank everyone, from guests to listeners
who have rocked with us through the years who will continue rocking with us.
This is a lot of fun and like I said, we may not be
the biggest league wide podcast, but we do enjoy doing this. We do
enjoy interacting with you guys. And hey, if this is your first time
listening to us, because you saw that Kaitlyn Cooper, the famous Kaitlyn Cooper,
was on this podcast, consider giving us a permanent subscription. Downloading our
episode, it's checking us out just beyond this episode, rating, reviewing us
forever you're getting your podcast. That helps a ton. Here's two five hundred
more episodes. I guess I don't really even know if I want to be
around that long. I don't know if you guys want us to be around
that long, but that's enough me waxing poetic about these last seven years or
whatever it's been. It has, indeed, though been a beast, blast
continues to be a blast. But let's go into a deep dive on the
twenty one twenty two Indiana Pacers with none other than Indy korn Roses Kaitlyn Cooper.
Kitlyn, thank you so much for coming back on Hardwood Knocks. I
don't know do we call you like mainstream Kaitlin Cooper now that you've been published
at five to thirty eight in addition to Indie Cornrows, whatever we're supposed to
call you. You're fantastic and we appreciate you coming back to talk as always
about the Indiana Pacers, who rumor has it, will not be making a
head coaching firing or change. While we were recording this podcast, which should
be great. First and foremost, though, how are you doing? I'm
doing well, like I appreciate like I'm assuming that you contacted Kevin Pritchard before
we did this and just said, hey, we got a podcast going on
and we'd really appreciate it if you didn't make any major changes during this one
hour session. You know I did, but he was he was too busy
retweeting crypto propaganda onto my timeline to give me an answer. Apparently, So
let's cross our fingers that nothing wild happens on this podcast. I guess I
just sort of want to start here. Is I know you the biggest offseason
addition or move that they made was just hiring Rick Carlisle. And we kind
of got into this during the live. It was a I don't know what
the pockets was called, but Ricarlo wasn't higher while we were recording, but
nape Yorkan was fired, and we talked loosely about maybe the Pacers would go
after Rick Carlisle. I know you've now written elements about what it'll bring to
the Pacers offense, but what is Is there anything specific that you think we
can expect to see from this team, whether it's just a particular way that
their offense is going to be run, or maybe a particular player that will
be used differently. Yeah, I mean several things. I think if you
look back, like just over the last two years, Nate McMillan, the
Pacers were kind of good at being vanilla like. The actions were very you
know, one and done. It was somewhat hitchy, and they needed to
get more movements. So Nabe Yorkin did that to his credit. I mean,
they were close to the top of the league in motion. They had
people moving on the weak side, but it became pretty mechanical and predictable and
somewhat of what they were doing, Like, I think there was other options
they could have hit, but it very much felt like a micromanaged offense.
So I think now with Rick Carlisle, maybe you get a little bit of
both blended in and you get an upgrade in that way, and that he
has some very nuance in good play calls that I think will fit various of
their players. But at the same time, I think that's what people assume
of him. But he also did a good job I mean in some of
its Luca like having the benefit of everything that Luca brings, but using very
simple actions at the beginning of a play to really empower playmakers and to create
small edges. I mean, I wrote a piece that people can go and
look at about structure. While Malcolm Brogden kind of hit on this the like
teams that have too much structure or robotic and teams that don't have enough are
two up and down. And the Pacers were kind of both sides of that
coin last year, So I think, like, you know, just in
their Spain actions, they would always go and that the ball handler would be
coming off the left side. And when you watch the Mavericks, they a
lot of times those screens are flat, so like a ball handler is going
to have more options to go off either way, and then the backscreener can
leak out either way. So that just creates a little bit more randomness.
But I think from an individual player standpoint, I would like to see and
I wrote about this with Miles Turner a year ago, that just you know,
the fake it till you make it thing from three, like he shot
more threes last year. But if you're making yourself a legitimate threat, even
if you're not hitting those at a super high clip, I think that that
would draw a little bit more attention to him. And I actually use Perzingis
as an example because the Mavericks were using him as a trailer in transition,
and I think there's a psychology to that. So I think that Miles is
kind of one of the last starters that kind of has probably maybe some untapped
potential there that hasn't really been delved out if he can, you know,
and I do think some of this is just on him, Like at a
certain point time, you just have to make shots, Like only twenty seven
percent of his threes were contested last year, so at a certain point in
time, you just have to hit those. But I think you'll still see
Sabonus being empowered as a playmaker. I think you'll see team ball from the
guard positions with both Brogden and LeVert being able to play off of each other
in downhill. So that's kind of a glossy overlook, I guess we should
say there's And part of this is obviously because the Mavericks had Luca and he's
such a heliocentric player, But the MAVs were Indiana. First of all.
It was fourth and average possession time after Cassilvert made his debut last year that
was per impredictable the Maverick during that same span where twenty fifth. Do you
expect that Carlisle is going to slow things down with this team or maybe take
away from their transition volume? Does that question not even matter because it's not
like the Pacers were this world beating offense anyway, So making those types of
I don't want, maybe not whole style shifts, but shifts aren't that big
of a deal, right, And this is going to sound contrary to the
entire Nate McMillan tenure because there was a lot of pressure of like, this
team needs to play faster, and in part they did because of what their
shot profile was. When you're leaning on mid range shots, that's pretty boom
or bust, and they just needed to get more possessions in order to stay
ahead, Like they didn't have a very nuanced offense. Now nave Yorker did
that, like you just mentioned, they really dialed it up, But I
don't think that that was completely to their advantage. In part, I think
he dialed up the pace because they had to outrun their own defense, but
in so doing it impacted and made their defense worse. Like when you're taking
very quick shots, that's your first line of transition defense. Honestly, if
you're taking a quick kamakaze layup, that doesn't really have much of a chance
and you're just attacking for the sake of playing fast that can lead to fast
break scores at the other end, and then it just was creating like am
vicious cycle between where they were getting advantages from. So I don't think it's
going to be a bad thing if the overall offense is functioning at a better
level if they're not playing, you know, as slap dash is what it
was over the last two months of the Borkan era. There's so damc dermott
left and I'm just curious as to and I guess this question is more loaded
until we know for sure when t J. Warren is going to come back.
But how big of a loss do you think he ends up being for
this team? Right? I think I touched on this one. This was
like maybe one of my only good moments from the last time I was on
here that just how well he and Sabonis fit together. I mean, that
was the number one assist combo on the Pacers, and some of that was
due to availability, but they also, like McDermott, loves to move from
left to right as a shooter. That's where most of his percentage of his
shots off screens are coming from. And Sabonis loves to work his left hand
and dribble handoffs. So and just like you can say, and I believe
this, like Sabonis can develop chemistry with anyone. He's a good enough playmaker,
but not everyone is going to do what Doug McDermott does. Not everyone's
going to be willing to make those reads and make those cuts and be able
to set up his man on his screen to cut back door worktop locking in
various coverages. So I can't say that Sabona's had the same chemistry with Justin
Holiday that he had with Doug McDermott, And they're both movement shooters, so
it is somewhat of a loaded question, Like I'll have to see what this
Chris Duarte bring in this kind of similar role. I mean, he's going
to be kind of their main movement shooter that they have left along with Justin
So if he can offer some of that, maybe it mitigates it. But
like as you say, like if it was a question just between which I
mean it wasn't because McDermott got offered more money, But like money aside,
if you're just looking at TJ and Doug, like I think TJ is going
to give you more in the regular season and keep the offense moving, and
he certainly has value. I mean, there's games you can point to from
last year that they probably would not have won without TJ McConnell. But in
terms of what both of them will offer you and the postseason and what that
established role already was in two man game with Sabona, I do think mcdermot's
going to be an underrated loss unless Chris Duarte immediately pops. Yeah, and
like the contracts are so different that it maybe it wasn't in either our choice,
but I would personally preferred McDermott on this team. Does that? So
do you think, then, since you mentioned him, that buzzer beater Summer
League buzzer beater came, Chris Duarte is going to get a chance to play
during his rookie year at this team. Yeah, it's interesting. Rick Carlisle
has really talked up both rookies already. I mean, he's said a lot
about Chris Duarte and Isaiah Jackson, and they both were impressive in Summer League.
I don't know that I'm ready to make that leap after four Summer League
games, but I think I would be somewhat disappointed if Chris Duarte isn't in
the rotation somewhere. I mean, they took him number thirteen, and I
think he fits for this offense for the reasons I just said, Like in
Rick Carlisle scheme, like the people are rarely just standing. They're gonna be
using a lot of flare screens in different ways. There's gonna be guard to
guard screens, There's gonna be a lot of spain where you're gonna need that
backscreen or who can actually put tension flaring out. He's the best fit for
that in my opinion on this roster. So I think that he needs to
at least have a bench role when the season starts. That's my opinion.
But we need to infer anything about their faith or lack thereof and Goga after
they have after they got Isaiah Jackson in the draft. Man, it just
feels like Goga stock is at an all time low, like because I mean
they also mentioned at the end of or when Rick Carlisle was introduced, like
the possibility of staggering Miles and Sabonis more. If you're staggering them more,
there's already going to be fewer minutes at center, and you're not going to
play Goga at the four, Laz, I don't think so. They've talked
about using Isaiah Jackson at the four potentially, which I'm interested to see how
that pans out. But yeah, I don't. I don't really know exactly
how Goga is going to fit in other than the role he's already had,
which is, you know, if one of the big gets Biggs get hurt,
maybe he gets to play, or maybe he gets five minutes over the
end of the first quarter in the second quarter, and if the game's going
well, he might get that same stint in the third. But I think
it's going to be pretty hard for him to carve out a role unless they
suddenly surprised us during this podcast and trade Miles Turner de Montes Sabonis and then
you know, if you notice there was no direct Sabonis Turner question in the
outline I sent you, I'm giving us a respite. This is like the
third or fourth year we're doing this, and it feels like it would be
the third or fourth year of just asking that same question. No, I
appreciate that, you get me. Yeah, so the other kind of I
guess the most notable other thing they did was adding Tory Craig, who feels
like a no brainer fit just defensively and kind of his run with the Suns
was very interesting. But you wrote about this, his offensive fit is going
to probably be dependent on him doing different things or at least, as you
put I think was getting out of the way at points. So what do
you what do you think they need to see from him on offense? What
type of role do you expect him to play with this team? Right?
And I think that like the best way I could describe it. And the
first time I noticed this, I really wasn't thinking about Tory Craig in relation
with the Pacers. It was when the Nuggets played the Lakers in the Western
Conference Finals in the bubble and they were posted yokis against switches, and it
just felt like his rhythm was somewhat other from the rest of the Nuggets in
terms of when he was supposed to cut and when he wasn't, and when
he should have been pulling over to create space. So I liked him somewhat
to what Thaddius Young was for the Pacers a few years ago, and that
like everyone always talked about that as this valuable defender and having the have to
defend the post, but also the mobility on the perimeter, and that was
true, but he was also good at filling the gaps in terms of manufacturing
angles as like a secondary option along the baseline, Like he was really good
at finding passing lanes out of the dunker spot and Tory Craig and the Milwaukee
offense was being used because you know, Bud was using the dunker spot a
little bit more and it didn't really feel like Tory quite worked that out.
Like I talked to a few people that cover the Bucks and was like,
you know, why wasn't he really getting minutes there? Like why didn't he
take off? And the overall response that I got a few people told me
he was somewhat MOPy and that like Bud wanted to play him more. But
then like Fanasis's all out effort was just like superseding his. So that's somewhat
concerning. I mean, obviously he played a pretty good role in the Western
Conference Finals for the Suns against Paul George, had some really nice possessions,
but I do think offensively, and this is part of the thing with it's
having Tory Craig. And they've mentioned now that like Tory Craig was signed in
part because they had doubts that TJ. Warren was going to be available,
but that they're better equipped to weather that injury. But at the same time,
a lot of these guys, while they do provide elements of what TJ.
Warren brings, they don't provide everything that TJ. Warren brings all at
once. So, yeah, you're gaining Tory Craig's defense and the potential that
he could like help at all switch lineup, but he's not going to provide
the same scoring punch. I mean, it was kind of funny when you
watch that the finals, how much Milwaukee just didn't care about him as a
shooter. It's like, oh, yeah, we know that you played for
us, and we're not gonna we're not going to be too concerned about that.
Yeah, and he was hitting three right time and Phoenix and just teams
even though they just didn't care, like they just weren't weren't on him.
Maybe he'll be happier. And indeed, because I'm assuming free agency last year
didn't plan out pan out as he expected. He ended up on a minimum
deal and the Nuggets din't even want him back, so perhaps now that he's
on like a you know, two year, ten million dollar deal, he
can I'd be pretty happy about that. But t J. Warren, his
name has coming up like half a dozen times already. Everything with him seems
very undefined about that return from other than the fact that he's not ready after
suffering the stress fractured his left foot, any sense of when they should hope
for him to be ready, and then just how looking at the long term
outlook at least through this season for the Pacers, how important is he to
optimizing the best version that this team can actually be? Right? I mean,
I think it is. I think that the injury update being released three
weeks before training camp even starts as somewhat ominously on itself that they were willing
to get that far out in front of it. And I know that they've
had a few quotes where they're like, you know, he's doing rehab.
We don't know what that means in the short term. It sounds like they're
confident that he's going to be back and that he's going to be okay,
but they don't have any idea when that's going to be. I personally will
be surprised, like if he's ready when the season starts, because if he
isn't even going to be producing and training camps. So and what I just
mentioned that they said that they signed Tory Craig in anticipation that TJ might be
out. That leads me to think that they're expecting that he's going to be
missing regular season games. But I don't know that for fact. But yeah,
I mean they have Tory Craig. They can guard wings, which was
not an option that they had last year. They were like all combo guards
and centers, and then they were giving up season highs to Ogeanaobi and Bridges
and Harrison Barnes and a whole string of other wings, not to mention just
like you know, having no one that can even try to catch the first
step of somebody like Janis and try to handle that type of a matchup.
They also have Justin who can play some four and play the three. They
have Kelan Morton if I if they feel good about Isaiah Jackson, he can
play some four, and they can downsize a little bit there. So like
they have all these different guys they can throw out there, but each thing
that you get with one of them, you're losing one of t J.
Warren's s. So for me, like the fact that he's the full package
deal and can be you know, a play finisher obviously as a bucket geter
you know insert smoke coming out of nose emoji, and then it can also
be a two way player. That was I mean justin Holiday mentioned this an
exit interviews, and I agree with him, Like TJ. Warren is probably
their best on ball defender the prior season under McMillan that he just didn't have
him, So I think he's pretty critical for their potential playoff success if they're
going to get back in there and potentially be, you know, competing in
the first round. The way he defended, or at least the types of
assignments he was covering in the prior year, in the bubble year, whatever
you want to call it, you could probably make the case, based on
how this team is built now that he might just be more important than them
functioning on defense than he is on right because just the covers that he like,
the individual assignments he has were just essentially the other team's best player on
the wings or best player period. Well, yeah, because I mean you
look at it. I mean even in the bubble, and throughout last season
there was times where he was guarding Devin Booker or Jamal Murray and then he's
in the bubble and he's guarding Anthony Davis. So exactly what you're saying,
who slides into what would be the TJ. Warren spot in the starting lineup?
Is it Craig, is it Holiday? Is it someone out like McDermott's
not there as an option anymore obviously. Yeah. My thought is because of
the way that they use so many guard to guard screens and the flare screens.
Like I mentioned before, it feels like it's going to have to be
justin or if Chris Duarte is just really impressing you in training camp, it
feels like it's going to have to be one of the two of them.
I kind of think Tory fits more ideally is like a small ball four when
he comes in with one of the centers and a bench lineup. But I
almost am not completely opposed to like a flex lineup that if you play a
team like the Clippers and you really need a wing defender, maybe you start
Tory Craig and maybe the rest of the time you're looking at a movement shooter
to pair with Sabonis and the starters and make use of some of those other
things on offense. That seems like that are going to be important. Well,
what's interesting about this team? Compared to Carlyle's path three iterations of the
Mavericks, they just had a very clear pecking order with Lukadacich and it was
just all Luca. But on this team right now, healthy, You've Karas
Savery, You've Nlcom Broggden, You've Sabonis. Who do you think is or
who will be? Because I'm sure you know this be like the primary offensive
vessel through which most of the offense is run on this team, right So,
I mean one of the buzzwords that I think I've heard like a million
times this summer is unselfish basketball. So I think it's gonna be somewhat more
egalitarian than it was a year ago. But if you look at the numbers
when Carris and Brogden and Sabonis were on the floor, which that is a
pretty small sample size, it's like four hundred minutes, but Karris's usage was
the highest of the three, then Broggden, then Sabonis. I think there's
somewhat of a misconception that because Sabonus has so many touches that he's like been
their number one option or has been like the quote unquote that guy. And
it's like, yeah, they're funneling touches through him because they needed to.
I mean, for one, he's very good at running dribble handoffs. I
don't really understand why any coach want it to advantage of what he offers in
that way. And I think that the Rick Carlisle will continue to do that
because the Mavericks ran a lot of delay up top as well. But also
when only Carris or Brogden was available, they you had to provide some way
for other guys to get downhill. So they're running like Chicago, which you
know pinned down into a dribble handoff from Miami handoff into a ball screen because
you had to have an extra layer to help people be able to penetrate the
defense. So they ran handoffs about more than about anybody last year in the
league. They ran a ton of handoffs, and that's in part why so,
yeah, he's having a lot of touches or like it's a flip set
and you might get like three touches on each play they run that like eight
times a game through various variations like his touches are going to wrack up.
But generally speaking, I still think a lot of stuff will be run Sabonus
and through Sabonus in the way I just said. But I also think you'll
see Carris and Brogden, you know, opposite each other at the top two
slots and like running flip sets between the two of them, but also like
buddying up where you might see like a ball screen between Sabonis and Carrass on
one side of the floor and then you throw a quick pass fire to the
other side to Brogged in off a step up screen from Turner who that can
then pop. Because those are things that feature pretty heavily for the Mavericks last
year. You'd see that between Luca and Jalen Brunson, with the ball typically
getting fired to Luca. So I think that there's a way for all three
of them to be doing that. I mean in general, just as like
a side podcast rant, like I see stuff all the time, I mean,
and this parlays into it for some of the reasons I just said,
because you know, I even saw this morning, like well, Sabonis can't
be that guy for the Pacers. Well, my response to that is,
why does he need to be? Like why, Like I don't really understand
why that's even a conversation, Like, yeah, he's a two time All
Star, but he's only making eighteen million dollars, Like I'm not really concerned
with somebody who's a playmate, mover and connector who can elevate and keep offenses
moving making eighteen million dollars a year and then having an argument about why,
like while he can't be a number one or scoring option or franchise guy.
Plus he continues to get better every year, so I don't I don't know.
Some of the narratives was sa Bonus in the Pacers I find incredibly weird,
But that's just my perspective. Yeah, it does seem like a lot
of the national perception of him is he's like that, he plays a lot
slower like that, everyone just views him as a throwback player, and I
don't know that I've ever viewed him in that regard, And it just feels
like if you watched the Pacers, especially over the last two years, I
don't know why you look at Sabonus and think he's just super throwback. Is
it because he's a big who is such like an important cog in the offensive
mission? I don't. I don't necessarily understand that perception a ton anyway,
Well, yeah, because I mean I think some of it comes, and
I do think that this would benefit to be altered somewhat, and I think
that it will be. I mean, his post up percentage was much higher
last year because for some of the reasons I said, there's only one downhill
option on the floor. For much of the year, teams were ducking under
pretty heavily against Brogden and Carriss when only one of them was on the floor,
So that took some of what he can do in the short roll away.
So then it's like, Okay, we're going to dump it down to
him in the post and hope he can score, which if he has a
more physical matchup and teams aren't switching, he needed to be running some split
cuts of some sort, and they only had like three various plays that they
ran, and they ran him the same way every time. So I think
that you'll see more randomness with the split action between Carris and Broaden up above
and moving Sabonus into the high post in the elbow area even more. But
yeah, I mean he runs the lay up top. They run five out
with him. Like he's a great off ball screener. He can be setting
flare screens. Flare screen ball screen is very hard for teams to defend,
not only because it's it's two actions, but if you sag off of him
as a non shooter, then you're giving up a pull up three on the
ball screen. So I think there's potential for stuff that they can do there.
But I think just because you know he's not necessarily shooting threes, people
just exactly what you said. They think he's like anti modern or something.
And they were playing at a fast paced with him at the end of the
year two. So I don't even really see that argument, but some of
it is very weird. Charris LeVert, I think this got lost a lot
in Brooklyn because of his own injuries, because of just the turnover with the
rosters, because he was never necessarily the primary guy. There was the shift
to Delo in part because the Causselvert injury, and then you have all those
stars coming through. But he gives you a lot from the point of attack
on offense, more than even just as a score. I've always thought his
passing as underrated. That being said, each of the past three years he
has shot a higher percentage on his off the dribble threes than catch and shoot
threes. And that's not the only barometer for can he work better off the
ball? But I'm just I've looked at that, and I look at how
he plays. I'm just, do you see a path or anything you saw
from him last season hinted at his ability to maybe play better offensively off others
who have the ball on their hands, right, I mean, that's the
real interesting point about him, because I think for his career he's like thirty
three percent on catch and shoot threes. Like it's very weird that somebody would
be shooting better on the harder attempts. But it seems like he's not always
shot ready when he's off the ball. Like that's something that stuck out a
lot when Duarte, in particular, was in Summer League. Guy is always
ready to be shooting, And it doesn't seem like Carris always is with his
feet. But do I can't prognosticate that I think he's suddenly going to start
shooting the ball better in that way. I mean, I don't know.
Maybe Rick Carlile and his coaching staff have like shot doctors working with him in
that regard. It's possible, But I think what you say there is interesting
and that like, do I think he's suddenly going to be great off ball
as a spot up shooter. No, as the backscreener in Spain? Probably
not, But do I think he can be off ball ready to attack and
like the boomerang action I explained earlier, Yeah, or like if you're running
delay and he's in the corner with Sabonis running the handoff into the pin down
for him to attack in that way. Yes, Like we saw that that
worked in ways last year. And I do think that Brogden will probably continue
to be somewhat of the primary. I mean, he's talked before, he
thinks his best position his point guard, and in some ways in what you
said to makes sense because I do think carris Is passing is somewhat underrated.
He typically hits kind of the same spots on the floor, but that's out
to me and his ability to read off ball screens to get him into position,
like he's not gonna fly off of two ivers like the iverson cut or
fly off of a stagger and suddenly hit a three like he's Doug McDermott.
But he does make reads of where guys are when they're trailing him to whether
that's the cutback door or to get himself open and to get to the ball
screen action in ways that I didn't really expect to see. So I think
that there's more that they can explore with that where it won't just be reliant
completely on how well he's shooting a spot up three, though you would like
to see improvement. I do want to see him setting back screens now in
this bad pick and roll, now that you mentioned it, if he's done
it already a bunch, I've guess I've missed it. No, I've never
seen it. One of the things that I always found funny in Dallas with
Carlos, He just regardless it seemed like who was on the second unit,
what the bench was, the matters are always able to cobble together these second
unit heavy lineups that were good. How do you sort of see that rotation
shaking out after the starting five where for Indie, whether it's how they're going
to stagger, Turner's the bonus and who they're surrounding those guys with. Is
there a player maybe even that people aren't talking about that's gonna play a bigger
role under Kyle and could could present wind up playing a big roll or Jeremy
Lamb kind of seems like a Rick Carlisle type player a little bit, even
though he's not necessarily an afterthought for this team. So I'm just curious how
you see that element outside the starting five shaking out The entire Jeremy Lamb perception
is going to be kind of interesting, especially in the wake of TJ Warren's
and definite absence and Edmund Sumner rupturing as Achilles tendon Because heading into the season,
there was rumblings that the Pacers had been looking to find a new home
for Jeremy, which made sense because if everyone was healthy, he might be,
you know, taking minutes from duar to hit kind of that backup two
spot, and Jeremy's going to be in a contract year, so would he
necessarily be happy in that type of situation. But now that they're down by
two wings and he's healthy, like, there's still stuff that Jeremy can offer.
He shot the three well last year. He can mozee into the lane
and get to his spots, like and I agree with you, Like the
perception might have been that he'd be out of the rotation, but now if
they need guys to kind of make up that scoring and makes sense that he
could be in the ten man depending upon how it shakes out. It's kind
of difficult for me to parse right now until I know completely who they're going
to start in place of TJ. But the one lineup that worked really well
for them two years ago with TJ and Aaron Holiday and Justin and Doug and
Sabonis, I'd like to find some sort of facts simile. I'd like to
see them find some sort of fact simile for that, because I do think
it would be so to both Miles and Sabonis's benefit to go back to the
arrangement where Sabonus would play like the first six minutes of the first quarter and
then come out with Miles playing almost the entire first quarter with the starters,
and then bring Sabonis back in to play with the bench, because I think
Sabonus, with everything that he gets asked to do with as physical as he
gets asked to play, with having to defend fours at the other end and
carrying the load in terms of playmaking and his amount of touches they get funneled
through him. I think it's better for him to play in shorter bursts.
I thought there was times at the end, especially the first and the third
quarters last year, because he and Miles kind of flip flopped roles under the
orchard where Miles would play more with the bench that Sabosters didn't look like he
had the same energy stores, like even on the glass. It was like
it'd be at the end of the quarter and somebody might, you know,
get two second chances that you wouldn't otherwise see with him out there. So
then it becomes, you know, guaranteed t J McConnell's going to be the
backup point. I thought Oshe Brissette might be able to sneak in there at
the backup four spot, but now it's like, you know, is that
Tory seems like that could be either way depending on how they view Jeremy Lamb.
So it's hard for me to come up with a definitive five. I
probably could have given you a better one if if this roster would be healthy,
but it seems like that's never going to happen. So do we expect
Turner to be just full go to start the season after that right toe injury
last year? Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm so happy for him getting
to see him on videos like I typically don't like watching all of the off
season workout clips, like I've kind of had enough of that. But given
that what he hype table, Oh, now that one, I love that
one. I love that one could stay. But I'm given what he revealed
about you know that he really struggled with that injury, both physically and mentally.
It looked like from what he shared that he's been back being able to
play up and down some and at least been able to put in work in
his shot, which is another element of this, because you know, under
Nate McMillan, he had kind of indicated on a podcast with c Jim McCollum
that they weren't necessarily on the same page about what his role was going to
be, and then last offseason there just wasn't a lot of time in between
the bubble and the start for him to really have worked, you know,
on being a stretch for so to speak. And now it feels like this
this summer, he should have had a pretty good indicator of what his role
is going to be. I know Rick Carlisle met with him a couple of
times or went and visited him, and that he's had time. He's shown
lots of videos of working on his shot, so maybe there will be some
development there in addition to working out with Julius Randall, who we do know
did improve his shot. So you know, you never know he shot the
ball okay outside of that first round matchup with the Evant Hawks. Yes,
aside from that, we'll ignore that. But this is going to be your
favorite question obviously, but it is part of the cookie cutter questions I asked
on every look ahead we have to go through the season. I think you
can understand more of this. But as of right now, if you had
to pick who's the player that's most likely to get traded before the deadline,
well, I mean, it wouldn't necessarily surprise me if the roster gets healthy,
and since Jeremy Lamb isn't an expiring year, if they wanted to eventually
clear minutes, like maybe Jeremy plays can show a contender. Hey, I'm
healthy, I can still contribute in a bench role for you if he got
moved. But the entire TJ situation is somewhat interesting too because he's an expiring
contract. I doubt he reaches an agreement on an extension because he's not going
to make as much in an extension as you will likely make in free agency,
depending upon what his foot situation is, and then when does he return
and what, Like how confident are the Pacers that they're going to be able
to resign him. I think that's kind of an underrated thing to watch with
the Pacers, is how they view that long term relationship because I don't think
he's going to come up with an extension. But the double big thing is
always going to loom, like if they don't get off to a great start,
and it just doesn't seem like this team's ever going to be, you
know, better than what they were at full strength, you got to look
at moving one or the other of them, like at a certain point time,
especially this is what I said before, like if you're if you're already
thinking about how much you're going to have to stagger them. And then there
was even some rumblings in the Indie Start was reported that a league source had
said they might bring Miles off the bench. Like, to me, if
you're even considering bringing one of them off the bench, and you're gonna have
to stagger them a bunch, and if they aren't closing games together, it's
time to pull the plug. Like your bus players need to be able to
play together. So that's where I land with it. Me, would just
be bizarre to make that decision then in the middle of the season, if
they're thinking about it throughout the entire off season. If you mentioned I didn't
even see the bench stuff with Turner, so if you were thinking along those
lines or and I know it's a different coach, but like if you're trying
to like help to figure out how you're going to stagger them and what that
does to your closing rotations, I just don't know why there wouldn't be more
due diligence, Like why isn't that to me, that seems like a move
because of how important theoretically both those players are that you should be making over
the off season rather than the middle of the year, where I guess maybe
it's easier to adjust. But then you're also just bringing in guys who didn't
have a training camp with you like, aren't totally familiar with the team,
and so that would be especially if they did it early on, that would
kind of blow my mind a little bit at this point, right, And
I don't know, I don't know that that was necessarily coming from the Pacers
because they didn't say a pace or source or a team source. It set
a league source. So that might have been there's another team suggesting how the
Pacers might make that pairing work. I don't know, from Charlotte or something
exactly. It made it they'll bring Turner off the bench because we would like
Miles Turner to start for us. But yeah, I mean, that's that's
the thing. I think I talked about that when I was here the last
time, that if you were going to make a move for either one of
them, especially with Sabonus, that you would want to know that in the
summer because you would be structuring the defense entirely differently than what you would be
doing with Miles, Like, you're not going to be funneling a bunch of
stuff to Miles if that's going to be Sabonus at solo five and you know,
vice versa. So it feels like it would be pretty hard to restructure
some of that mid season unless they're already planning, like, hey, we're
not just going to be expecting both of these guys to play the exact same
system, and when one of them is at solo five, we're going to
be more proactive than what nape Yorkan was and we're not going to be so
on autopilot with what our defensive system is in general that they can make the
adjustment, but they aren't. They don't typically make. I mean, with
the aside from Victor and what became necessary because they needed him to come back
and kind of recoup his value, it seems for the most part that their
preference is to make those types of trades in the off season. I think
in this case, because they have another new coach, they're kind of willing
to see and especially since this group of five has never played a minute of
basketball together, are willing to see what, you know, who fits with
who, and how does this how does this new system sit on everybody before
they make a big change, which I mean makes sense in a certain regard,
but yeah, and imagine making had a decision before even seeing TJ.
Warren with like all this, and I think I would probably default to Jeremy
Lamb just because I don't know, like would they bring him back? And
TJ. Warren's injury just makes it so iffy. But I even think with
that, you're probably still want to see where the TJ. Warren stuff would
lead over Lamb And if he's gonna shoot like forty percent from three again,
maybe you keep him. But maybe that also makes him easier to move.
So I do not know. But what do you so when you look at
this roster, whether it's a specific player, archetype position, or just a
functional void, what is Indiana's biggest weakness on paper? Yeah? I mean
not that we need another defense ramp, but they really got to find a
scheme that fits for them defensively. That's not what they were doing last year.
Like I'm not an anti zone. I'm opposed to zone. When you're
like seven different defenses and it looks pretty clear that guys don't know their roles
and responsibilities and you're just running it against every opponent without a lot of thought
about why exactly you're doing it other than to create chaos that ends up being
confusion for yourselves. Some of the autopilot ball pressure, like it just some
systematically that's where I land. But I think from like a personnel standpoint,
and I don't want to sound like I'm Slam magazine or whatever, but like
having a guy in the playoffs that's like a legitimate one on one score who
you know, when your plays are scouted for when there's exaggerated coverage, can
still score and get points for you. And maybe Karis Lavert comes to grow
into that role. I mean he wasn't. He had good moments in that
playoff series in the bubble against the Raptors. Maybe he continues to grow into
that the more he has the ball in his hands, but his numbers.
It's interesting because aesthetically his game and one on one situations is more appealing to
watch, I think than Brogden's. But Brogden, for their careers, has
been more efficient and isol then Carris has been. And that's in part because
he shoots threes and is better at shooting threes. But points still stands.
When Carris came over at the back end of the season, he struggled a
little bit against attacking switches and his shot profile kind of makes it difficult consistently
for him to be a number one option, though he kind of needs to
be a number one option for some of the reasons we laid out before.
So for him, I think he needs to make a bit of a jump
that can show like, hey, I can consistently be this kind of like
what he was in May, which I mean some of those numbers were juiced
because the place the Pacers were just playing so ridiculously fast, but he did
show growth in the two man game with he and Sabonis. So I do
think that they need somebody that's like, hey, this is a wing scorer
that we have that can go get points when stuff breaks. And you know
that's somewhat t J. Warren, but not completely because you're not going to
run a ton of stuff with him as an initiator or on ball, and
then when he does get exaggerated coverage is he's not really a playmaker in the
same way that Carris is. So if anybody's gonna step into that role,
that kind of who it needs to be. This question, it's probably for
the Pacers more than a lot of teams, is going to be matchup dependent.
But what should be their go to closing lineup and crunch time? Right?
So for what the reasons I said before, it would be kind of
annoying if Turner and Sabonis aren't both in that lineup, because I just think
your best players need to be able to close games for you. But a
lot of times over the last two years it's involved Justin. I looked up
and you sent me these questions. I was like, I wonder exactly how
many clutch minutes Justin has played. And they played one hundred and sixty eight
clutch minutes last year, and Justin played one hundred and forty one of them.
So like as a bench player, and he was starting games last year
when TJ was out as well, but like, he's played three hundred and
two out of the three and twenty clutch minutes over the last two seasons.
So they they're obviously confident. Both coaches, both Nates, were confident in
his ability not only to provide value as a defender, but also be able
to shoot the ball. So you want guys out there with two way ability.
So if you are going to downsize and you're gonna pick either Turner or
Sabonis in those situations, I think you look at if TJ's healthy, TJ
and then two from the Justin Duarte Craig grouping with you know, hopefully you're
hoping Duarte and Justin can can handle that, because what I said, like,
they're going to offer you scoring as well as defense is there. And
I was going through this because it's my favorite question to ask and think about.
But the team's not really set up to be weird. But if there
was, if you were that, if you're at Rick Carlile, is there
a quirky, unconventional lineup that you're just just trying rolling out to see what
happens. I want you to take this answer extremely seriously. I think that
they needed to roll out O Shaber set, Isaiah Jackson, Goga Turner,
and Sabonis. They drafted all these these centers inside them all time to play.
They all center lineup. No, Like, I think that the Pacers
for the last several years have never really had a lineup where they can say
like this is a switch everything lineup, Like they've never really had that option,
so I don't. I think it kind of sounds like they expect Isaiah
Jackson to be playing with the madd ance more, but he can definitely challenge
shots on the perimeter, so kind of selfishly, I'd like to see what
happens if you play like Brogden, Justin, Tory Craig, O'Shea Brissett as
like that sideline to sideline weach side rim protector guy with Isaiah Jackson at the
five and his ability to kind of switch out. So I'd like to see
a very switchy lineup, just in very small minutes to see if they can
do it, because that's not something as a blogger I've really ever had the
chance to cover. As you know, I'm a sucker for small ball lineups,
and they will never try this lineup because, as you mentioned, they
have roughly eighty centers on their eighty bigs on their roster. Give me TJ.
Warren, Tory, Craig, Justin, Holiday Carath Lbert and Malcolm Brogden.
I just want to see it for a few possessions, just to see
what happens. I don't Warren's probably your day facto five in that situation that
probably ends terribly, but who knows. I also just want to see it.
Well, they did some of that with ocea de facto five when all
the centers were injured like Karrison Brogden. I mean obviously TJ wasn't playing,
but Karrison Brogden and Justin and Doug would be out there with O shape or
set at times or the back end the last season. So I'm just I'm
rooting for them too. For I'm not rooting for injuries. I'm just going
to root for them to trade some big so that they can open TJ.
Warren to get healthy, so that they can play my mic working lineup that
I think would probably give Rick Carlyle heart palpitations just looking at it on paper.
So there as we're recording this, they're over under a set at forty
two point five. Would you take the over the under on that? And
where in the larger scheme of the Eastern Conference do you see them finishing?
And we talk about loaded questions that is so difficult to ask without even having
a timetable for t J Warren, Right, I mean, I think that
even with all their injuries last year, that they were on pace to win
thirty eight games and an eighty two schedule. And there's games like they were
so bad in the fourth quarter at times, like they just ran out of
gas and had inexplucable errors. Like if you look at their plus minus in
the clutch at those lunchtime minutes, like most of those guys were like minus
sixty and the and the clutch minutes they played, so like if some of
that falls better in their favor, I think I don't feel bad about taking
the over even with you know, TJ being out early. I think that's
possible, even though the East seems like it's improved for me, like when
I thought TJ was going to be available, I don't think it's ridiculous to
think this team could be a sixth seed like now. I do think that
their range could be back at the bottom of the play and tournament. Like
if you told me they were six, then you told me they were tenth.
I would think both of those outcomes were completely reasonable. But I think
that they can be back and be a playoff team. I think that there's
going to be a significant upgrade, not only just from some of the schemes
be or Turner's running, but from some of the stuff that was happening behind
the scenes, like just an addition by subtraction there. Like I'm not somebody
that thinks coaching is be all and end all in the NBA. I think
talent matters more. But I think that last year was a very bizarre season
for the Pacers, and I know that can apply to a lot of teams,
but I think they're better than what the product they were putting out was.
And this season, you look at the roster now, even without TJ.
Warren healthy or having end been something like, they still just have a
bunch of good players and not everything's a perfect fit. If we're still trying
to talk about the Sabonis turner, what's going to happen with that? But
if they're healthier, how do you not? This feels like a very easy
over for me. I am, however, looking at all the other podcasts,
these look aheads that I've done, I'm apparently very optimistic about a lot
of teams. That year. I smashed so many overs. I'm gonna need
to start going under. I only have under for the Warriors in the Thunder
so far. But I'm just looking at this and it's like, unless they
get hit with injury catastrophe again, I'm even baking in Like, if TJ.
Warre doesn't return till Christmas, probably still take the over here. And
you think you mentioned about the East, I somehow feel like it's not getting
talked enough. Is everyone's trying to figure out who's that third best team behind
Milwaukee In Brooklyn, those are very clearly the top two. There's I think
you could throw in Lanta Miami into that discussion if you want to say they're
a cut above everybody else. But there's a chance that like three through line
or ten could be depending on how you feel about the Bowls, the Raptors,
they could be like super interchangeable in the Eastports, like the Pacers might
not be a bad team but could still finish eleven or something. But I
could also see them finishing like four. Yeah. Like, it definitely feels
like there's a marsh pit there of like Eastern Conference teams competing for the sixth
spot. Is there anything or anyone I didn't ask you about that you think
needs to be covered about this team? Did you need to dig deeper into
the all center lineup that you want to see Rick Carlisle throw out? No,
never forget that. Malcolm brog didn't even played a few minutes at center
last year. That's how hard up the Pacers were. I don't know that
I could forget that because I'm not sure that I knew that. Yeah,
I try to think which Yeah, it actually happened. I'm trying to think
which game that was, because I took a screenshot of it and said,
never forget. Oh, it was against the Spurs because more and more people
were even getting hurt during that game and they were already out of centers to
play. So it was in the fourth quarter you played a couple of minutes
at center. I'm gonna need to go back and watch that because that's make
it happen. I want to see it again and then for an extended run.
Kaitlyn, this was fantastic. As always, thank you for giving me
so much of your time. As per usual, you're able to tell our
listeners where they can find you on social media and your work. Yeah.
So my handles at C two Underscore Cooper, and then my regular home is
at Indy corn Rows, where I have about one or two pieces per week
generally during the regular season, though I really haven't had something this week because
I had a freelance piece over at five thirty eight. So yes, throw
the confetti. That was a great piece. It was about Eric Gordon and
the importance of just spacing and man, who are we talking about in reference
on this podcast, was it Turner. Oh yeah, look it's a it's
Eric Gordon effect. He just needs to hoist them and be an actual threat
and we don't have to care as much about the percentages. You got a
lot into what that can do just by taking by virtue of taking those shots.
At least. I don't know if he's going to spot up from Eric
Gordon range would be pretty interesting, but that was a great piece on five
thirty eight, so check it out. Kaitlyn. Thank you as always.
You know by now because I think it might be a double digit appearance for
you on Harmon Knox. I'll be pasturing you again in the future, so
thanks much more. Thanks for having me h