WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.799 It's magnificent. I got the full Wolford Brimley going on. I was going 2 00:00:03.879 --> 00:00:09.759 for tombstone and I got Wilford Brimley. So ask not what your country can 3 00:00:09.800 --> 00:00:15.400 do for you, ask what you can do for your country. Mister Garbutshaw, 4 00:00:16.359 --> 00:00:26.359 tear down this wall. Read my lips. It's the Ricor Shape podcast, 5 00:00:26.440 --> 00:00:29.920 usually with Peter Robinson and Rob Long, but today I'm James Lola's talking 6 00:00:29.960 --> 00:00:32.560 to John Gabriel and Charles A. C. W. Cook. Our guest 7 00:00:32.679 --> 00:00:36.000 Raphael Mangolo is going to talk to us about crime, urban disorder and what 8 00:00:36.159 --> 00:00:39.960 can we do well we can have ourselves a podcast. A robbery charge, 9 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:46.200 a burglary charge, it's that charge receiving stolen proper. Whatever we possibly can 10 00:00:46.240 --> 00:00:50.280 apply to this situation, we're going to apply it. The DA and the 11 00:00:50.399 --> 00:00:54.520 Justice Department of the courts need to make sure these people pay a price for 12 00:00:54.560 --> 00:00:58.880 what they did. Welcome everybody. It's the Rigor Shape Podcast number six hundred 13 00:00:59.000 --> 00:01:03.280 and sixty. James Lyle's here in Minneapolis, Minnesota, overcast, dank fall 14 00:01:03.399 --> 00:01:07.079 day. Rob and Peter are off on various missions. We'll hear about them 15 00:01:07.159 --> 00:01:11.760 later, unless, of course, they're classified and sitting in standing in doing 16 00:01:11.760 --> 00:01:15.959 a woman's job, doing an excellent job are our friend John Gabriel and Charles 17 00:01:17.040 --> 00:01:21.359 C. W. Cook. Gentlemen, welcome, Thank you for having me 18 00:01:21.680 --> 00:01:25.120 slightly preempted. Whether or not I do an excellent job. I may not 19 00:01:25.359 --> 00:01:27.560 do an excellent That's entirely possible. I'm being kind. I have decided to 20 00:01:27.599 --> 00:01:32.359 avoid excellence for the next hour or so. All Right, now that we've 21 00:01:32.359 --> 00:01:38.200 reset our expectations and everybody is adjusted accordingly, we proceed news Diane Feinstein, 22 00:01:41.480 --> 00:01:44.439 and I wonder how many of the obituaries are going to say Feinstein, who 23 00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:48.959 had a Chinese spy embedded in her organization for twenty years, etc. Etc. 24 00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:53.400 Do you guys remember that fount that driver a driver, and the general 25 00:01:53.439 --> 00:01:57.640 reaction to having any member of Chinese espionage embedded in her office and driving her 26 00:01:57.640 --> 00:02:04.879 around listening to her phone calls for one of years was wow? Anyway, 27 00:02:04.959 --> 00:02:07.879 that was it? That was it? That was it? That was it. 28 00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:12.599 We were assured that nothing was passed along because apparently the Chinese plays such 29 00:02:12.639 --> 00:02:16.800 a long game that they say, no, wait two decades before you finally 30 00:02:16.840 --> 00:02:21.840 contact us and give us some information. So your thoughts on the passage. 31 00:02:21.879 --> 00:02:23.719 She voted yesterday, by the way, in the Senate. Apparently they wheeled 32 00:02:23.759 --> 00:02:29.599 her in and had her Rubbert Sampson or something. The term elder abuse is 33 00:02:29.639 --> 00:02:30.719 being floated and round an awful lot. I went two minds on this. 34 00:02:30.800 --> 00:02:34.479 I mean, one, my father was incredibly vital and smart up until the 35 00:02:34.479 --> 00:02:36.599 age of ninety three, so I would have trusted him in the Senate. 36 00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:38.879 But on the other hand, you admire the fact that people are able to 37 00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:43.400 be productive in their golden years. But on the other hand, we're seeing 38 00:02:43.400 --> 00:02:47.800 the effects of a gerontocracy with its ideas embedded in the great society, or 39 00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:53.879 a few years afterwards, still hanging on this this aged withered Ramora on the 40 00:02:53.919 --> 00:02:58.919 body of the American body politic, and you just are kind of glad to 41 00:02:59.120 --> 00:03:04.439 see that it may not seem like the permanent rule of old people that it 42 00:03:04.439 --> 00:03:07.360 does seem now. And I say that as an old person. I suppose 43 00:03:07.879 --> 00:03:09.120 I think it's an issue we're going to have to deal with more and more 44 00:03:09.159 --> 00:03:15.159 in the future, especially as medicine gets better and better people are living longer. 45 00:03:15.319 --> 00:03:19.759 Having many types of cancer is no longer the death sentence it once was, 46 00:03:20.280 --> 00:03:24.759 thank God. However, that exposes you to the other issues of the 47 00:03:24.759 --> 00:03:29.080 mind when people grow older. Like you said, that's why I'm against term 48 00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:32.960 limits or an age limit. Some people are very vital. My grandmother lived 49 00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:38.680 to one hundred and one and she was feisty to the end. On the 50 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:42.280 other hand, my father who had passed away due to Alzheimer's and dementia, 51 00:03:43.000 --> 00:03:46.719 he was otherwise completely healthy. And I think more and more that's something that 52 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:51.639 a lot of people in America aren't quite prepared for. More and more we're 53 00:03:51.639 --> 00:03:54.439 going to have these people who are just hey, this person has a good 54 00:03:54.479 --> 00:03:59.520 brand, they can get reelected, they have a last name that people in 55 00:03:59.560 --> 00:04:04.520 this disc Rick, No, let's run him again. And how I don't 56 00:04:04.520 --> 00:04:10.879 know. As for me, if I make it after a fabled career in 57 00:04:11.199 --> 00:04:15.840 DC Senate, president whatever, and make it to seventy five, I will 58 00:04:15.879 --> 00:04:20.000 be pining for a lake house and time with the grand kids and maybe sitting 59 00:04:20.040 --> 00:04:25.600 on a dock and fishing. And how some of these people in Finstein's case, 60 00:04:26.360 --> 00:04:30.639 sadly, I think she was being abused, much like Biden is today. 61 00:04:30.920 --> 00:04:35.639 But you wonder how alluring power must be that these people will not just 62 00:04:36.680 --> 00:04:40.879 take the lake house option. Because boy, the rest of us, I 63 00:04:40.879 --> 00:04:44.920 think would Charles. One of the more interesting things being floated today on Twitter, 64 00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:46.800 which I'll never call X. If I ever call it X, just 65 00:04:46.920 --> 00:04:51.160 slap me, is that Gavin Newsom is going to appoint Kamala Harris as the 66 00:04:51.240 --> 00:04:56.480 replacement Senator, thereby getting her out of the deep slot and allowing Newsom to 67 00:04:56.639 --> 00:05:01.639 slide into the presidential campaign while he he's not for a couple of reasons, 68 00:05:03.639 --> 00:05:13.240 namely, the twenty fifth Amendment requires a replacement Vice president to be agreed to 69 00:05:13.319 --> 00:05:17.480 by both the House and the Senate. The House is run by Republicans, 70 00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:26.519 the Senate is run by Joe Manchin, and there is no way that that 71 00:05:26.600 --> 00:05:33.319 combination of power players is going to permit the Democrats to maneuver themselves into a 72 00:05:33.399 --> 00:05:42.360 more attractive electoral position by getting rid of the millstone that is Kamala Harrison replacing 73 00:05:42.439 --> 00:05:47.839 him as someone potentially better. And there's a second reason related to that, 74 00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:57.199 which is that the Shenanigans that the Republicans would legitimately pull could actually lead to 75 00:05:57.199 --> 00:06:01.120 Speaker McCarthy because to get to the point at which the House was asked to 76 00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:05.959 acquiesce to Joe Biden's replacement, Kamala Harris would have to resign. She resigned 77 00:06:06.040 --> 00:06:11.040 and then wasn't replaced, and then Biden died, which is not that remote 78 00:06:11.160 --> 00:06:17.839 possibility, either now or in a second term, then the automatic, constitutionally 79 00:06:17.879 --> 00:06:23.199 mandated replacement would be a Republican. So well, it's a funny idea, 80 00:06:23.720 --> 00:06:30.040 but it's not going to happen. On the Dan Finstein question that you asked, 81 00:06:30.199 --> 00:06:35.279 John, I think there's a good and a bad argument in favor of 82 00:06:35.319 --> 00:06:41.759 people staying in politics too long. I've heard people say a variation of what 83 00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:44.800 John did, which is, why wouldn't you just want the Lake House? 84 00:06:44.920 --> 00:06:49.879 Yes, I would. I think with Diane Feinstein a lot of other politicians 85 00:06:49.879 --> 00:06:54.199 though, this is what they like doing, right, so they're never going 86 00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:59.560 to voluntarily do something else because this is their idea of fun. That being 87 00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:04.000 the case, I'm not that sad for her in the sense that she died 88 00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:10.639 doing what she loved. What I find distasteful about it and sad about it 89 00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:15.160 is that she couldn't do it anymore. I mean, the videos of her 90 00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:19.120 that we saw from the Senate were just terrifying. This was not Chuck Grassley, 91 00:07:19.160 --> 00:07:23.720 who's almost that age, he's eighty nine, who sprightly goes to every 92 00:07:23.759 --> 00:07:27.399 Iowa county when he runs for reelection, seems to run around cornfields for fun. 93 00:07:28.120 --> 00:07:32.240 This is a woman who was so attached to the one thing she liked 94 00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:36.600 in life, which was politics, that she was being wheeled in to cast 95 00:07:36.680 --> 00:07:41.959 votes that she couldn't understand. To me, that's the tragedy of this, 96 00:07:42.040 --> 00:07:45.360 and that's where the older abuse comes in. They knew she wanted it, 97 00:07:45.399 --> 00:07:48.000 They wanted to use her, so they did, and the rest of us 98 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:53.560 had to watch it and avert her eyes. Indeed, well, it's preparing 99 00:07:53.600 --> 00:07:59.040 yourself for a weekend of pains to her, to her service and the revest 100 00:07:59.079 --> 00:08:01.000 of it, and will be to see who the replacement is going to be, 101 00:08:01.160 --> 00:08:05.879 which will be interesting. Indeed, onto the debates, Chris Christy called 102 00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:13.360 Donald Trump, Donald Duck, and Steve Martin today on X said that actually, 103 00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:18.199 I'm sorry on Twitter, I said today that no, Donald Duck was 104 00:08:18.279 --> 00:08:22.920 a war veteran. Donald Duck was was faithful today. See Donald Duck took 105 00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:26.439 great care of it, and he enlisted off a bunch of wonderful things about 106 00:08:26.439 --> 00:08:28.079 Donald Duck and then say, and you, sir, are no Donald Duck. 107 00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:31.440 Okay, thanks Steve, that's funny, but it's for the rest of 108 00:08:31.440 --> 00:08:35.519 it. I'm not sure what Mark had left. People were talking about Vivic's 109 00:08:35.559 --> 00:08:39.919 hair, which seemed to grow like a chia pet throughout the whole thing. 110 00:08:39.399 --> 00:08:43.600 But Bergham did well. You know, I'm always rooting for the North Dakota 111 00:08:43.639 --> 00:08:46.960 guys. He's solid man. Got some feistiness, a lot of talking over 112 00:08:48.360 --> 00:08:52.039 everybody else, and mostly people complaining about the questions themselves, like why not 113 00:08:52.399 --> 00:08:56.440 why not just hand this over to mother Jones in the nation, because you're 114 00:08:56.440 --> 00:08:58.960 going to get the same sort of questions. What were your thoughts, winners, 115 00:08:58.080 --> 00:09:03.879 losers? Charles? Am I winner or a loser in that array? 116 00:09:05.080 --> 00:09:11.240 These choose your own adventure Charles, Yeah, I think that. As ever, 117 00:09:13.080 --> 00:09:18.000 all Republican politics, and maybe even all politics takes place against the backdrop 118 00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:22.320 of the one hundred and ninety foot golden Donald Trump that towers over everything, 119 00:09:22.639 --> 00:09:28.799 and this is no different. I wish it were different, but I saw 120 00:09:28.840 --> 00:09:37.080 nothing on that stage that changed the narrative or changed the headlines. And this 121 00:09:37.159 --> 00:09:46.039 is why these late attempts to introduce new characters into the show probably our futile 122 00:09:46.120 --> 00:09:50.360 as well. Oh, well, they've only the governor of Georgia were up 123 00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:52.960 there, or the governor of Virginia were up there, or the governor of 124 00:09:52.960 --> 00:09:56.320 Texas were up there. Well, really, why they're going to punch Donald 125 00:09:56.360 --> 00:10:01.919 Trump in the face. It's not clear what it will take to change it. 126 00:10:01.039 --> 00:10:09.159 Certainly nothing happened at the debate that did. I was equally appalled by 127 00:10:09.559 --> 00:10:18.919 the questions that the lady from Univision asked. This is a bizarre moment in 128 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:26.440 our politics where people start sentences with as somebody who has certain immutable characteristics. 129 00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:31.960 It would be really weird if I did that. If I would be But 130 00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:35.360 if I were asked to moderate a debate and I just said as a tall 131 00:10:35.399 --> 00:10:41.840 American, you know, or as a white person, I must ask as 132 00:10:41.879 --> 00:10:46.559 if, as if, as if that is the way that presidents ought to 133 00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:52.559 think. So, you know, from both the question aside and the answer 134 00:10:52.600 --> 00:10:56.960 as side, I just didn't think it did much to change anything, which 135 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:01.320 is a problem. If you would like to see the Republican Party move on 136 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:05.399 from Donald Trump as a member of the beard having community, I think you 137 00:11:05.399 --> 00:11:11.360 should have said, John, Yeah, I think what was frustrating to about 138 00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:16.759 when they have a reporter asking questions in a Visione or Telemundo a Movise Networks 139 00:11:16.840 --> 00:11:24.799 is when they decide, I'm only asking questions about yes, as Latin X 140 00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:30.960 woman, as let's talk immigration for the fourth time tonight. It reminds me 141 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:35.639 of the typical Panels shows on cable news where they have three white men and 142 00:11:35.879 --> 00:11:41.759 one black woman and they ask the white guys about the economy and healthcare and 143 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:46.360 foreign relations. Then they say, now let's get to race, and every 144 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:48.639 head just turns to this poor black woman, and I'm like, is that 145 00:11:48.679 --> 00:11:52.159 all she's good for? She's probably an expert in all sorts of things, 146 00:11:52.559 --> 00:11:56.879 and that's what it always feels like. Okay, let's serve this constituency here. 147 00:11:56.960 --> 00:12:01.480 It's like I have the sneaking suspicion living in the Southwest, much like 148 00:12:01.600 --> 00:12:05.720 Charles I'm sure in Florida, surrounded by Hispanic neighbors. They tend to be 149 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:09.600 interested in the exact same things I am. Well, not so much like 150 00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:15.679 Byzantine Empire history, but why is my gas costing so much? Why is 151 00:12:15.679 --> 00:12:20.080 my grocery bill so high? They care about things that human beings and Americans 152 00:12:20.279 --> 00:12:26.639 care about, and it's just kind of frustrating to see because it's less pandering 153 00:12:26.679 --> 00:12:30.600 than it is belittling. It seems, especially at this point, totally fair. 154 00:12:30.840 --> 00:12:35.159 Yes, it's the end result of identity politics, or reduced down to 155 00:12:35.240 --> 00:12:37.720 as Charles said, and the mutable characteristic, which is why I was interested 156 00:12:37.759 --> 00:12:41.480 in the day of the debate. Actually I didn't watch the debate because I 157 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:46.600 went to a community forum in my neighborhood to see a debate of sorts TwixT 158 00:12:46.679 --> 00:12:52.279 city councilperson and the one who wants to unseat her. And this was telling 159 00:12:52.720 --> 00:12:56.919 no Republicans, nobody remotely conservative, because what's the point, There's no point 160 00:12:56.960 --> 00:13:01.360 in running anybody in my district had somebody who was sort of kind of moderate 161 00:13:01.399 --> 00:13:05.399 of the Democratic Farmer Labor Party, and then the opposition, the person who 162 00:13:05.399 --> 00:13:13.559 wanted to unseat her was the Democratic Socialist Workers of America actual socialist, and 163 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:16.240 it was one of the more entertaining and embarrassing things I've ever seen. They 164 00:13:16.279 --> 00:13:18.960 would ask the person who currently is on the city council, what you know, 165 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:22.480 what do we do about crime, what do we do about housing, 166 00:13:22.519 --> 00:13:24.279 what do we do, et cetera. And she would come up with a 167 00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:28.679 fairly detailed anadine boilerplate series of ideas that you know, some work, some 168 00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:31.600 don't, and it essentially shows her ability to grasp the issue. They go 169 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:35.799 to the socialist and you get nothing but bullsheet tripe about how well, it's 170 00:13:35.879 --> 00:13:39.039 ridiculous to even answer the question as long as the capitalist system exists right now, 171 00:13:39.080 --> 00:13:43.279 because it exploits the workers, it takes their labor, we need to 172 00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:46.120 replace it with power to the people and then read right. So, in 173 00:13:46.159 --> 00:13:48.840 other words, she wouldn't answer any question because like, what's the point of 174 00:13:48.879 --> 00:13:52.919 addressing this until we completely undo the capitalist system. So when you're hearing somebody 175 00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:58.120 use capitalists and parasite and workers in factory floor and all the rest of it, 176 00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:01.519 it's hilarious and I could not stop laughing in the back of the room. 177 00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:03.360 I'm just I'm like, you can't be serious. And what's more, 178 00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:07.320 she was an idiot. She couldn't finish her sentences. She would trail off. 179 00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:11.039 She would just say the same thing and was absolutely trounced. So there 180 00:14:11.080 --> 00:14:15.919 you have it. It's almost like this parody performance of our politics here in 181 00:14:15.919 --> 00:14:18.879 Minneapolis. It's like, well, you can't really say we're crazy a lefty 182 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:20.960 because here's the crazy lefty and they don't get elected. No, it gets 183 00:14:20.960 --> 00:14:26.279 elected as the person who says this asked about whether or not old people are 184 00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:30.759 worried about getting, oh, I don't know, pushed out of their homes 185 00:14:30.799 --> 00:14:33.039 by taxes. They own their taxes, but their homes outright, But the 186 00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:35.159 taxes go up and up and they can't pay them, and they lose them. 187 00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:39.799 They lose them, the state takes their house that they own. And 188 00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:41.799 so she said, yeah, it is a concern. So one of the 189 00:14:41.799 --> 00:14:45.240 things we're doing is we're starting a commission that's going to look at the programs 190 00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:46.679 that we have in this city and see whether or not they're actually working. 191 00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:50.600 Which is nice to hear, but you'd like to think that there was something 192 00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:56.080 like that in place before, but no, apparently not. Something started, 193 00:14:56.080 --> 00:15:00.559 something's funded, must be must be funded until the last Trump blows. But 194 00:15:00.600 --> 00:15:03.039 we're supposed to believe, of course, that when they find something that isn't 195 00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:05.960 working, they're going to take that money and apply directly to the reduction of 196 00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:09.679 our taxes, which of course they will not. So having assured us that 197 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:13.039 she's concerned about these things, she's promptly pivoted on the issue. We really 198 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:18.120 care about climate change and the necessity of troubling the tax that we are paying 199 00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:24.240 on our utilities in order to restart and barrel right through with our green initiatives 200 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:30.279 that will ensure equity in our underserved communities by converting their gas ranges to electrical 201 00:15:30.279 --> 00:15:31.799 heat. So, in other words, if you're worry about taxes, don't 202 00:15:31.879 --> 00:15:35.679 worry. We're actually looking at what we spend. Oh and by the way, 203 00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:37.080 we're going to tax you three times as much as this so we can 204 00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:43.159 perform this nonsense that Minneapolis will reduce its carbon by point zero zero zero one 205 00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:48.639 percent, which was equal to one day's output of China's latest new factory. 206 00:15:48.200 --> 00:15:50.039 Oh, it's enough to keep you up at nights. But you know what, 207 00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:54.279 I don't keep up at nights worrying about these things. I sleep well. 208 00:15:54.399 --> 00:15:58.279 I sleep very well. One of the reasons I do is because a 209 00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:00.960 little secret I got I'm gonna tell you about. Do you know the poor 210 00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:04.080 sleep can cause weight gain and mood issues and poor mental health and lower productivity 211 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:07.120 and all that other stuff. And sleeping less than six to seven hours per 212 00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:11.080 night is linked to reduced white blood cell count. Not good. White blood 213 00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:15.799 cells protect our body against illnesses and diseases, and they fight viruses and bacterias 214 00:16:15.799 --> 00:16:17.600 and more. You want them, you want lots of them. You want 215 00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:22.000 healthy ones. Right. 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That's shopbeam 239 00:17:56.359 --> 00:18:00.039 dot com slash ricochet and use the code ricochet for up forty percent off. 240 00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:04.200 And we thank Beam re sponsoring this the Ricochet podcast, and trust me, 241 00:18:04.599 --> 00:18:12.599 it's delicious fantastic. Make sure I got the pronunciation correct. Rafael Manguel Mangul 242 00:18:12.680 --> 00:18:17.279 Magul coming out of three two one and now we Welcome to the podcast. 243 00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:21.519 Rafael Manguel a fellow at the Manhattan Institute, contributing editor to The Wonderful City 244 00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:25.079 Journal, and a member of the Council on Criminal Justice. He's the author 245 00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:30.920 of Criminal in Justice. Welcome Raphael, much for having me back. Well, 246 00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:33.599 this week we had these wonderful videos. Everybody got to eat of the 247 00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:38.480 looting and the looting, and the looting and the looting in Philadelphia Apple luuuu 248 00:18:38.759 --> 00:18:42.279 lemon foot locker. It's only eighteen liquor stores in the rest of it. 249 00:18:44.839 --> 00:18:48.000 I remember, No, Well, that's because we aren't there, because of 250 00:18:48.039 --> 00:18:52.720 the deserts. I remember that happening here in Minneapolis in twenty twenty, and 251 00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:56.160 it's terrifying. If it's anywhere close to your neighborhood, it's really terrifying. 252 00:18:56.200 --> 00:19:00.880 If it is your neighborhood, What can you tell us about this Mayhem night 253 00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:07.480 phenomenon? And it's no doubt intrinsic connection to the injustice that the people had 254 00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:11.880 perceived. Yeah, well, you know the Mayhem phenomenons, these looting incidents, 255 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:15.640 these wilding episodes, they're they're not particularly new, but we do seem 256 00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:21.079 to be seeing more of them, and we get a closer glimpse now with 257 00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:22.559 social media, and one of the things that I think the public is finally 258 00:19:22.599 --> 00:19:27.279 starting to understand is that there's an element to these things that's just fun for 259 00:19:27.319 --> 00:19:32.160 the people who engage. The idea that we're all supposed to accept is that 260 00:19:32.200 --> 00:19:36.759 this is a function of you know, deprivation and you know desperation. But 261 00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:38.920 if you watch these videos and you listen to the commentary, and you see 262 00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:42.880 the smiling faces and hear the laughter, it's just a thrill for them, 263 00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:47.640 right The idea that everybody got to eat as you you know, run into 264 00:19:47.640 --> 00:19:48.920 a Nike store and run out with sweatsuits. I mean, I don't know 265 00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:52.839 how you see in something like that, but you know, it's it's clearly 266 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:56.519 not about need, you know, and it is in fact connected, I 267 00:19:56.559 --> 00:20:00.480 think, to the broader direction that our criminal justice system has been taking throughout 268 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:03.039 the country. I mean, over the last you know, ten to twenty 269 00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:07.599 years, we have seen a pretty market shift and how we do criminal justice 270 00:20:07.599 --> 00:20:10.799 in this country and how we do policing, and that shift has been unidirectional. 271 00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:15.960 Every single major policy initiative that's been enacted over the last decade has either 272 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:19.000 lowered the transaction costs of crime, or raise the transaction costs of enforcing the 273 00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:22.480 law, right, I mean, whether you're talking about more federal interventions in 274 00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:27.480 local policing, you know, things like consent decrees, you know, bans 275 00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:33.759 on certain kinds of grappling techniques, you know, a more unfunded paperwork compliance 276 00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:37.559 burdens, you know. And then on the criminal justice side, I mean 277 00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:41.759 you've got the Progressive prosecutor movement, which by the way, Philadelphia has perhaps 278 00:20:41.799 --> 00:20:45.480 ground zero four right where you have these elected officials who just say, well, 279 00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:48.440 we're not going to prosecute these whole categories of crime, or even the 280 00:20:48.559 --> 00:20:51.640 categories of crime where we're still going to prosecute. You know, your chances 281 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:55.119 of a jail sentence or a prison sentence are going to be reduced to near 282 00:20:55.240 --> 00:20:57.960 zero. And you're going to see a huge spike in probation, huge spike 283 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:04.240 in diversions, spike in you know ACDs or germans on contemplation of dismissal, 284 00:21:04.279 --> 00:21:07.039 which is basically like, you know, if you don't get into any trouble 285 00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:11.359 for the next six months in your case will go away. You know, 286 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:15.759 all of this communicates something to people who in fact are paying attention and what 287 00:21:15.799 --> 00:21:18.319 that communicates. It said, Hey, there are no longer any real consequences. 288 00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:21.519 So is it any surprise that we see this? I don't think so, 289 00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:26.119 Hira File. I have a question about why this is happening. So 290 00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:30.359 I often describe myself as a criminal justice squish, But what I mean by 291 00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:33.559 that is not that I want to see this sort of behavior, even that 292 00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:38.400 I want short sentences or lenients. I just like the procedural elements. I 293 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:45.960 like trials, I like the exclusionary rule. I like a broad interpretation of 294 00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:49.839 the Fifth Amendment, sixth Amendment, and so on. I don't understand why 295 00:21:49.880 --> 00:21:56.480 it is that we have gone in this direction, especially given that there was 296 00:21:56.519 --> 00:22:03.079 this enormous crackdown on the crime of the nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties that worked, 297 00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:07.160 that we could see worked, and now we seem to be doing everything 298 00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:12.359 in the other direction. So my question is is this the product of over 299 00:22:12.440 --> 00:22:17.319 confidence? Did we think that we had fixed crime and therefore could afford to 300 00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:21.279 behave like this, or is there something else going on here? Is this 301 00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:26.319 tied in, for example, to our obsession with identity politics and disparate impact. 302 00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:30.119 I think it's much more of the ladder. I think what we're seeing 303 00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:33.839 is a deep sense of discomfort with that successful history with respect to the crime 304 00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:38.880 decline. Yeah, a very few people who are sort of honest brokers, 305 00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:44.200 but you know, certainly on the left of this issue will deny that the 306 00:22:44.359 --> 00:22:49.480 uptake and incarceration and the reinvestments in policing throughout the nineteen eighties and nineties helped 307 00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:52.279 reduce crime. You know, they may argue about the degree to which that 308 00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:57.000 was the case, but I think everyone who knows anything about this understands that 309 00:22:57.079 --> 00:23:00.920 those things really did help in a substantial way. But what we see is, 310 00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:06.480 I think a level of just uneasiness with what that look like. Right. 311 00:23:06.519 --> 00:23:11.039 You see this sort of obsession with disparities in terms of arrests, in 312 00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:14.839 terms of police use of force, in terms of incarceration. Right. We 313 00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:18.559 often hear, for example, that a black man in the United States is 314 00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:22.599 five times more likely than a white man to be in prison. We often 315 00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:25.279 hear that they're more likely to be arrested, that they're even for the same 316 00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:29.200 kinds of offenses, et cetera. You know, and it really just I 317 00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:30.839 think miss is the forest for the trees. I mean, the kind of 318 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:36.319 overall case for the sort of decarceration and de policing that we've been seeing has 319 00:23:36.359 --> 00:23:41.279 three parts, right, They're kind of three fundamental claims that undergird a lot 320 00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:44.039 of the reform efforts that I was just describing early. The one is that 321 00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:47.880 we have this kind of mass incarceration problem. We constantly hear these sort of 322 00:23:47.960 --> 00:23:51.880 unfavorable international comparisons, Right, I think uss five percent of the world's population 323 00:23:51.920 --> 00:23:55.279 twenty five percent of its prisoners. This is patently unjust. We're supposed to 324 00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:59.000 take this as prima facia evidence, you know, that we incarceerate for more 325 00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:02.160 than we should. And a lot of the way that people make that case 326 00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:06.640 is by comparing us to other Western European democracies, not controlling for the fact 327 00:24:06.680 --> 00:24:11.559 that we have in this country, unfortunately many many more pockets of serious crime. 328 00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:15.200 Uh where you know it's crime that it's going to land you in prison 329 00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:17.920 for a long time pretty much anywhere in the world that you commit it. 330 00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:21.279 It's it's not necessarily that we're a more punitive society. And one of the 331 00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:22.799 things I'd like to point out to people, and you should know this, 332 00:24:22.880 --> 00:24:26.720 Charles, is that in the UK, the mandatory minimum sentence for illegal firearm 333 00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:30.759 possession is five years in prison. You have to serve three and a half 334 00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:33.119 years. There's a sort of truth and sentencing component here in the United States. 335 00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:37.160 That's a that's an offense that's regularly met with probation. I mean, 336 00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:41.599 you see people on the street all the time that have you know, bettergular 337 00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:45.200 inprobation or parole for for firearms offenses where you know, we're lucky if they 338 00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:48.319 served sixty days, you know. So it's not that we're more punitive, 339 00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:51.559 and it's not that we over incarce rate. I mean, you know, 340 00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:52.960 one of the questions that I'd like to ask people, I think that the 341 00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:56.880 true test of whether we have an over incarceration problem is to ask can we 342 00:24:56.960 --> 00:25:02.200 safely decarceorate to the leve that we would need to achieve parity with the other 343 00:25:02.680 --> 00:25:04.960 democracies that were unfavorably compared to To do that, we'd have to release about 344 00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:08.799 seventy percent of the people in stay prisons. Well, poo's in stay prison. 345 00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:12.160 I mean, you know, somewhere around two thirds of the prison population 346 00:25:12.200 --> 00:25:15.640 in this country at the state level, which is where about nine out of 347 00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:21.000 every ten prisoners are held are there primarily for a violent or weapons related felony, 348 00:25:21.400 --> 00:25:23.400 and that's just the that can't be. I've been let to believe that 349 00:25:23.480 --> 00:25:26.960 seventy percent of them are all extras from the wire who were spot holding a 350 00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:30.640 small bag of drugs. That's exactly right. I mean, this is the 351 00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:36.160 lie that was sold to the US and so many people bought it hook line 352 00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:38.920 and sinker, and it really is frustrated because it's very easily debunkable. You 353 00:25:38.960 --> 00:25:41.400 can go into the data, you can go into the statistics, and what 354 00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:45.160 they tell you again is that the vast majority of people in prison today are 355 00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:48.640 there primarily for violent or weapons related offenses. Even the ones that are there 356 00:25:48.680 --> 00:25:52.680 primarily for a drug offense or some other kind of non violent property offense, 357 00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:57.160 they all have extensive criminal histories, which often include violence, which explain why 358 00:25:57.160 --> 00:26:00.880 they're in prison for those non violent convictions. If you look at the typical 359 00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:03.799 criminal history of someone in a state prison in the United States today, you're 360 00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:07.839 going to find someone between ten and twelve prior arrests in five and six prior 361 00:26:07.880 --> 00:26:14.079 convictions. That does not comport with the story that we've all been told. 362 00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:17.880 This idea that we systematically deny second chances in the years we have second chance 363 00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:22.480 month in this country, right, that is the story. And so when 364 00:26:22.519 --> 00:26:26.680 I ask peoples go through the prison population and tell me who's been denied a 365 00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:30.640 second chance, most of these people have been given multiple bite at the apple, 366 00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:33.039 and every time we give them a bite at the apple, we're essentially 367 00:26:33.160 --> 00:26:36.640 rolling the dice. And we're rolling the dice with the lives of the people 368 00:26:36.680 --> 00:26:38.519 who live in the places where these individuals are going to spend their time when 369 00:26:38.519 --> 00:26:44.039 they're not incarcerated, and that is in a very small pocket of this country, 370 00:26:44.119 --> 00:26:47.960 right, The vast majority of crime is very, very hyper concentrated, 371 00:26:47.960 --> 00:26:52.240 which kind of takes me to the second plank, or the kind of the 372 00:26:52.279 --> 00:26:53.759 last plank of this three part argument. The second part is that you know, 373 00:26:53.799 --> 00:26:57.440 we have this mass incarceration problem, but also this police violence problem, 374 00:26:57.480 --> 00:27:00.319 which you know, I think is drastically overstated. You know, yes, 375 00:27:00.440 --> 00:27:03.759 do our police imperfect, Yes, do they act maliciously, of course, 376 00:27:03.799 --> 00:27:07.319 But when you contextualize our use of force numbers in the context of the fact 377 00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:11.039 that we have somewhere around six hundred thousand officers making ten million plus arrest a 378 00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:15.720 year, a thousand deaths, the vast majority of which involve armed suspects who 379 00:27:15.720 --> 00:27:22.200 are violently resisting. Is not particularly surprising or egregious, right It doesn't reveal, 380 00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:26.319 you know, some out of control police force of trigger happy monsters. 381 00:27:26.359 --> 00:27:30.480 But the really the third plank is what I think has given this movement the 382 00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:33.480 momentum that it still enjoys today despite the crime spike, and that is that 383 00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:38.680 both the mass incarceration and police violence problems fall disproportionately on the shoulders of low 384 00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:44.119 income minority communities. And that's true to an extent because you do see these 385 00:27:44.119 --> 00:27:48.160 disparities in enforcement. What I try to get people to understand is that those 386 00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:51.920 disparities have to be viewed in their proper context. You can't just look at 387 00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:55.960 the enforcement side of the ledger. There is another side that you know, 388 00:27:56.119 --> 00:27:59.960 Enforcement is not the only output of the criminal justice system, even though that's 389 00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:03.240 what we all pay attention to, right is, as Charles kind of alluded 390 00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:06.960 to earlier, there were crime declines that were attributable to the build up of 391 00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:11.759 policing and incarceration. We now know who benefited from those crime declines, and 392 00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:14.440 we know who will benefit from the crime declines of the future, because we 393 00:28:14.519 --> 00:28:19.359 know how crime concentrates, and it concentrates primarily in precisely the areas that the 394 00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:22.359 reformers say that they want to help. Right, So, in New York 395 00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:26.920 City, every single year, like clockwork, a minimum of ninety five percent 396 00:28:26.920 --> 00:28:29.599 of shooting victims are either black or Hispanic, almost all of them are male. 397 00:28:30.359 --> 00:28:33.519 If that kind of disparity existed in any other aspect of American life, 398 00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:37.640 I mean, there would be marches in the street. I mean, imagine 399 00:28:37.640 --> 00:28:41.480 if ninety five percent of COVID deaths were black and Hispanic males. I mean, 400 00:28:41.559 --> 00:28:45.200 imagine what the policy response to that would have been. And yet there's 401 00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:48.279 essentially silence when it comes to it. And what I want people to understand 402 00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:52.319 is that, you know, there is an incongruity between the argument that we're 403 00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:56.200 all supposed to buy, right, this idea that the criminal justice system is 404 00:28:56.279 --> 00:29:02.559 racist because it disproportionately arrests in prisons and uses for against black and brown men 405 00:29:02.799 --> 00:29:07.799 for the most part, that there's an incongruty between that and the reality that 406 00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:11.000 when the criminal justice system achieves its state and ends, which is keeping crime 407 00:29:11.079 --> 00:29:15.759 under control, it disproportionately benefits those very same communities, and so you're forced 408 00:29:15.799 --> 00:29:21.160 to answer this weird question, which is like, why would this system that 409 00:29:21.240 --> 00:29:25.119 we're supposed to believe is designed and operated, you know, to oppress these 410 00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:29.519 communities so disproportionately benefit those varied communities, right, right? I mean, 411 00:29:29.720 --> 00:29:33.720 the truly racist cop just doesn't care. Right, They throw their hands up 412 00:29:33.720 --> 00:29:37.640 and they say, let them kill each other. The person that's proactive, 413 00:29:37.240 --> 00:29:41.759 right, that chases the arms suspect through the dark galley, they're the ones 414 00:29:41.799 --> 00:29:45.559 that are actually the anti racist actors in this situation. They're the ones subordinating 415 00:29:45.599 --> 00:29:48.880 their safety in order to make an arrest that is not going to benefit the 416 00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:52.720 vast majority of white America. You used a candy term there. We're gonna 417 00:29:52.759 --> 00:29:56.960 have to ring a bell five point to merit there. I have ninety seven 418 00:29:57.039 --> 00:30:00.960 questions and adenda, but John wants to say something, so all for me, 419 00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:04.519 I want to say, Well, John strokes his Wilfred Brimley like beard, 420 00:30:04.759 --> 00:30:07.960 and actually it's more of a captain. It's more of a captain Smith 421 00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:11.640 of the Titanic thing. I think, oh, thank you, thank you. 422 00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:15.079 That bodes well for my near future. This John Gabriel Raphael, and 423 00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:21.160 thanks again for being on. One thing that seems ineffective to fix this, 424 00:30:21.240 --> 00:30:25.240 at least from a political angle, is you see the GOP debate the other 425 00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:30.000 night, and you will hear ProForma we got to back the guys in blue, 426 00:30:30.559 --> 00:30:33.920 but it seems like the message coming from them isn't going to be as 427 00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:41.279 effective as people going on strike in Oakland, voters turning out the district attorney 428 00:30:41.319 --> 00:30:45.720 there because he was so soft on crime. Are we seeing more and more 429 00:30:45.799 --> 00:30:51.599 community activists in these locations that are suffering from this nonsense? Like you say, 430 00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:59.359 people complain about over incarceration and ethnic disparities in those institutions, but those 431 00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:03.960 are the victims to those other disparities exist in victims. It's obviously going to 432 00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:07.319 be an issue of the people who are most vulnerable or the most likely to 433 00:31:07.359 --> 00:31:14.200 be harmed in these situations. What are you seeing in cities with just communities 434 00:31:14.359 --> 00:31:19.960 everyday folks rising up and saying this is insane, I've had enough because Fokland 435 00:31:19.960 --> 00:31:26.759 and San Francisco are hardly hardcore right wing nut job electorates there. Yeah, 436 00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:30.480 no, that's exactly right. I do think would happen with the DA in 437 00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:34.000 San Francisco was somewhat anomalous. And here's why. For the most part, 438 00:31:34.519 --> 00:31:37.720 violence, which is really what a lot of people are particularly worried about when 439 00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:41.319 they talk about the crime spike, is very, very hyper concentrated geographically. 440 00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:45.519 The vast majority of Americans just you know, they can go about their daily 441 00:31:45.559 --> 00:31:49.279 lives without really having to come into contact with criminal violence. I mean, 442 00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:52.200 you know, just by way of illustration, here in New York City, 443 00:31:52.279 --> 00:31:56.319 every single year since at least twenty ten, somewhere around three and a half 444 00:31:56.319 --> 00:32:00.240 percent of our street segments, which would be kind of corner to corner two 445 00:32:00.279 --> 00:32:04.240 sidewalks, see about fifty percent of all the violent crime. One percent of 446 00:32:04.240 --> 00:32:07.279 the street segmentcy about twenty five percent of all the violent crime. So you 447 00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:08.440 know, if you're living on the Upper West Side or you know, Upper 448 00:32:08.440 --> 00:32:13.279 East Side, chances are you can kind of avoid that for the most part. 449 00:32:13.359 --> 00:32:16.960 What happened in San Francisco, though, was the disorder problem was so 450 00:32:17.119 --> 00:32:22.079 widespread that it was at the doorsteps of the politically active and well to do 451 00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:24.759 the people who actually helped drive outcomes. And that's not something that I think 452 00:32:24.759 --> 00:32:30.559 you're going to see replicated in every city across America. Although that's certainly not, 453 00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:35.039 despite the best efforts of a lot of jurisdictions like Philadelphia, DC, 454 00:32:35.359 --> 00:32:37.440 New York, you know, in terms of the policies that they're enacting to 455 00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:42.000 try and get there. So I do think that, you know, what 456 00:32:42.039 --> 00:32:46.279 we saw with Chessi Budine getting ousted is probably not going to happen very much 457 00:32:46.440 --> 00:32:50.559 or very often. And I think part of that is because for the most 458 00:32:50.599 --> 00:32:53.880 part, these DA races are are still pretty low Salien selections often held in 459 00:32:53.960 --> 00:32:59.799 off year contests, and they are still characterized by very low turnout. I 460 00:32:59.839 --> 00:33:04.839 mean, Larry Krasner won reelection despite presiding over a massive violent crime spike and 461 00:33:05.119 --> 00:33:07.519 something like, you know, seventeen to twenty percent of eligible voters turned out 462 00:33:07.519 --> 00:33:12.920 in that Democratic primary. So I do think that we're still a ways away 463 00:33:12.920 --> 00:33:15.519 from kind of seeing the sort of wave that we would need to see to 464 00:33:15.559 --> 00:33:20.079 really get this thing under control. But I do think that, you know, 465 00:33:20.079 --> 00:33:22.079 one of the benefits of social media is that the voices in the community 466 00:33:22.119 --> 00:33:25.799 that have always been there by the way are finally starting to get heard, 467 00:33:27.640 --> 00:33:30.640 and they're becoming more aggressive, and they're they're making use of these tools at 468 00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:34.920 their disposal with more regularity, and I think some of the movement that we're 469 00:33:34.920 --> 00:33:38.240 seeing in places like Oakland is very encouraging. We just need more of it, 470 00:33:38.279 --> 00:33:42.839 and we need I think the broader public to kind of have the courage 471 00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:45.160 to have the tough conversations that are ultimately going to find their way to the 472 00:33:45.160 --> 00:33:49.680 waste question. Yeah, it's very similar effect, I believe, to school 473 00:33:49.799 --> 00:33:54.000 choice where hands were forced. Let's say, whether it's DC Milwaukee here in 474 00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:59.319 my state of Arizona, the most powerful advocates for these things. So the 475 00:33:59.319 --> 00:34:02.440 people were saying, our public schools are really suffering, and I'm glad you 476 00:34:02.519 --> 00:34:07.799 have the nice Tony suburb that you're in and you can contribute to the booster 477 00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:10.519 club and the kids can have, you know, the finest stadium they want 478 00:34:10.559 --> 00:34:15.039 every five years. But yeah, hopefully the people will speak up about this 479 00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:22.719 or you get El Salvador, I mean, do you offil sometimes wonder whether 480 00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:24.320 or not. I mean, I think this is too big a country for 481 00:34:24.519 --> 00:34:29.159 that solution. That a lot of people look to El Salvador, which was 482 00:34:29.719 --> 00:34:35.519 run by criminals, and say, bully for that guy. He comes to 483 00:34:35.559 --> 00:34:38.119 the president and decides to get crack down and does it just hoovers everybody off 484 00:34:38.119 --> 00:34:40.800 the streets and puts them into awful jails. And now that at the point 485 00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:43.920 where people are saying, you know, this is a little bit too far, 486 00:34:43.960 --> 00:34:45.360 because you can drop a dime on anybody and get them taken off the 487 00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:49.119 street, and people are settling scores that way. But on the other hand, 488 00:34:49.679 --> 00:34:52.559 people seem to be relieved that they no longer have to cower in their 489 00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:57.199 houses and that they can actually sleep outdoors in a hammock without having to worry 490 00:34:57.199 --> 00:35:00.079 about the fire gunfire. And like I said, America is too big a 491 00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:04.760 country for this to happen. And I think but on a local level, 492 00:35:04.840 --> 00:35:07.000 you think, well, it's either going to be the state crack the government 493 00:35:07.000 --> 00:35:13.599 cracks down, which seems unlikely because they are intellectually and ideologically predicated on a 494 00:35:13.599 --> 00:35:15.639 whole series of assumptions that say, we can't do that because it's wrong, 495 00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:19.840 or the citizens are going to do something about it, which is what people 496 00:35:19.880 --> 00:35:22.079 are always going to say. Oh, look at this TikTok video, Look 497 00:35:22.119 --> 00:35:24.079 at this YouTube thing here I found where somebody stepped up and stopped the shoplift, 498 00:35:24.159 --> 00:35:27.559 or the tide is turning, But it isn't really it's not enough of 499 00:35:27.559 --> 00:35:30.039 it, and there's not enough people to do that, so we are all 500 00:35:30.119 --> 00:35:34.079 then either on our own and or reliant on government. I mean, which 501 00:35:34.119 --> 00:35:36.480 way do you see eventually that this is going to shake out? Do you 502 00:35:36.559 --> 00:35:38.679 fear that there's going to put it this way? Do you fear let me 503 00:35:38.719 --> 00:35:42.679 actually come up with the questions. You're just rambling my gums with a statement. 504 00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:49.039 Do you fear vigilanteism? You know, Charles Bronson style nineteen seventies, 505 00:35:49.079 --> 00:35:51.920 Bernie gets the rest of it having a resurgence, and if it did, 506 00:35:52.679 --> 00:35:55.119 what do you think the reaction to that would be. It's a fear of 507 00:35:55.159 --> 00:35:59.199 mind, for sure. I don't think it's particularly likely. It's one of 508 00:35:59.199 --> 00:36:02.360 the reasons why I like the idea of having a government that is tasked with 509 00:36:02.599 --> 00:36:07.559 providing for public order, because the alternative is that there will always be policing. 510 00:36:07.639 --> 00:36:08.760 Right the questions who's going to do it and how well are they going 511 00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:12.960 to do it? I don't want to live in the world in which you 512 00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:16.159 know, uh, the kind of situation you saw what Bernie gets becomes an 513 00:36:16.159 --> 00:36:20.199 everyday occurrence. I don't want to live in a world in which you know 514 00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:22.760 every clerk decides to take a baseball back to everyone who gives them a funny 515 00:36:22.760 --> 00:36:27.199 look, uh, you know, in a seven to eleven. Despite how 516 00:36:27.800 --> 00:36:30.760 you know good, some of those videos may have made people feel, you 517 00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:32.800 know, when when they when they feel like thieves are are getting their way, 518 00:36:34.239 --> 00:36:37.400 are getting what they deserve. So I just don't think we're going to 519 00:36:37.480 --> 00:36:39.679 get there, nor do I think we're going to go the El Salvador route, 520 00:36:39.719 --> 00:36:42.960 right in part because we have a constitution in this country, we have 521 00:36:43.079 --> 00:36:47.039 laws, we have u procedural protections which I value, you know, as 522 00:36:47.079 --> 00:36:52.000 just Charles and as I think everyone else you know on this, and you 523 00:36:52.039 --> 00:36:55.880 know that the question becomes is can we learn something from El Salvador? And 524 00:36:55.880 --> 00:36:59.199 I think we can, and that is that, you know, we're relearning 525 00:36:59.199 --> 00:37:02.960 the lesson of incapacitation. Right when you take criminal actors off the street, 526 00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:09.000 they are incapacitated from victimizing society. They cannot do harm outside of those walls. 527 00:37:09.440 --> 00:37:13.400 That was the lesson of the nineteen nineties that we seem to have forgotten, 528 00:37:14.119 --> 00:37:20.840 and that's always going to be the primary benefit of responding to crime incarceration. 529 00:37:21.599 --> 00:37:23.079 The good news for us is that we don't have to do what El 530 00:37:23.159 --> 00:37:28.360 Salvador has done. We don't have to be dragnet and sweeping with how our 531 00:37:28.440 --> 00:37:31.800 response on this. We have the ability in this country to use data to 532 00:37:31.960 --> 00:37:38.960 pinpoint our enforcement resources to identify the relatively tiny share of our population that's responsible 533 00:37:38.960 --> 00:37:43.639 for the most serious crimes and the biggest chunk of those crimes. I mean, 534 00:37:43.679 --> 00:37:45.199 you know, the problem. Analyzes that have been done on things like 535 00:37:45.239 --> 00:37:51.360 homicide and gun violence consistently show that somewhere around zero point one to zero point 536 00:37:51.400 --> 00:37:54.360 five percent of a city's population is responsible for more than half of the gun 537 00:37:54.440 --> 00:37:59.679 violence in those places. Right, it's not as difficult as we might think 538 00:37:59.719 --> 00:38:02.239 it is is to identify who those people are. Right, They tend to 539 00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:07.119 have significant criminal histories, They tend to be involved in gangs. When we 540 00:38:07.239 --> 00:38:13.239 come into contact with these individuals through criminal enforcement, it's really just on us, 541 00:38:13.559 --> 00:38:16.320 through the system to hold them accountable and actually incapacitate them for a meaningful 542 00:38:16.360 --> 00:38:19.920 period of time, which is one of the reasons why. You know, 543 00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:22.400 one thing that I do think is a possibility is you know, a kind 544 00:38:22.440 --> 00:38:27.559 of resurgence of these habitual offender sentencing enhancements, things like you know, modified 545 00:38:27.639 --> 00:38:30.639 versions of three strikes where it's like we're going to draw a line in the 546 00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:34.159 sand with respect to repeated criminal offend and we're going to say beyond this point, 547 00:38:34.199 --> 00:38:37.719 no more. Right, we did it once it contributed, we can 548 00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:39.599 do it again. We can do it in a way that's responsive to the 549 00:38:39.599 --> 00:38:45.360 critiques of those earlier initiatives, right where you can kind of build in incentives 550 00:38:45.400 --> 00:38:49.280 to desist from from crime. So you know, maybe if you go five 551 00:38:49.360 --> 00:38:52.719 years without a new arrest, you know, you lose a point towards your 552 00:38:53.039 --> 00:38:59.119 ultimate strike count or something like that. We can be more intelligent and civil 553 00:38:59.159 --> 00:39:01.199 about how we do this. But the further this problem goes down the road, 554 00:39:01.559 --> 00:39:06.719 the less sophisticated the response I think is going to be, and it's 555 00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:08.039 going to become more of a backlash. That's what I don't want to see. 556 00:39:08.079 --> 00:39:12.119 I think the hope is that every time the pendulum kind of swings past 557 00:39:12.159 --> 00:39:15.400 the point of equilibrium, it doesn't have to go as far as it did 558 00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:19.280 the last time before it starts coming back. And I think we're still at 559 00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:22.239 a point where we can reapply the lessons that we learned early enough that we 560 00:39:22.239 --> 00:39:25.400 don't have to let things deteriorate to the point that they were in the nineteen 561 00:39:25.400 --> 00:39:29.960 eighties and nineties. Nor do we have to be as draconian as we were 562 00:39:29.960 --> 00:39:34.159 in the two thousands. I know what Charles wants to get in here, 563 00:39:34.159 --> 00:39:37.039 but I want to say one thing, and I think that in many senses, 564 00:39:37.079 --> 00:39:38.639 it is worse than it was in the eighties and the nineties. You 565 00:39:38.760 --> 00:39:42.079 had a lot of street level crime in the eighties and nineties. We all 566 00:39:42.079 --> 00:39:45.000 remember what New York was like. We all remember the taxi driver era, 567 00:39:45.320 --> 00:39:49.400 we all remember the bad subway got it Well we have today, however, 568 00:39:49.639 --> 00:39:54.000 thanks to the lenient prosecutors and the legislatures saying that, well, you know, 569 00:39:54.119 --> 00:39:59.400 stealing nine ninety nine bucks from something isn't really shoplifting. Stealing it's not 570 00:39:59.480 --> 00:40:01.119 that important. You steal a thousand dollars, we're gonna come down and you're 571 00:40:01.159 --> 00:40:05.840 like a bag of hammers. Maybe okay, like maybe a bag of Posta 572 00:40:05.920 --> 00:40:08.719 or something. But you can steal up the ninety nine bucks and we're good. 573 00:40:09.239 --> 00:40:15.760 Consequently, you have a combination of organized crime link rings that go into 574 00:40:15.800 --> 00:40:21.519 Walgreens and Cbs and Duane Reads and just put everything in trash bags. And 575 00:40:21.599 --> 00:40:23.760 you also have individuals who say, you know, there's no consequences for me 576 00:40:23.880 --> 00:40:27.119 this, Why would I want to be a fool and pay for it and 577 00:40:27.159 --> 00:40:30.639 just walk in and take stuff and walk out again. This level of complete 578 00:40:30.679 --> 00:40:37.519 and utter breakdown of the compact between the store and the clients is new. 579 00:40:37.760 --> 00:40:46.320 We haven't seen this kind of mass, casual unaddressed theft ever. I don't 580 00:40:46.360 --> 00:40:50.039 think am I wrong? This is this is the new wrinkle, and this 581 00:40:50.079 --> 00:40:52.960 is one of the things that astonishes people about the new form that urban decay 582 00:40:53.000 --> 00:40:55.679 has taken. This is something that we didn't have to deal with in the 583 00:40:55.679 --> 00:41:00.199 eighties and the nineties. I was there. Well, I think a lot 584 00:41:00.199 --> 00:41:01.880 of it has to do with what the expected responses. In the eighties and 585 00:41:01.960 --> 00:41:06.079 nineties. The expectation was that if you were caught even stealing, you were 586 00:41:06.119 --> 00:41:09.199 going to be penalized in the serious way. That has changed, and so 587 00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:13.679 I do think we're starting to really get a clearer picture of just how thin 588 00:41:13.719 --> 00:41:16.239 the line is between order and disorder, and that line has gotten thinner because 589 00:41:16.280 --> 00:41:22.719 the sort of frontline keepers of order, the police, are just absolutely decimated 590 00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:27.320 in terms of numbers. I mean, one of the least appreciated phenomenon that 591 00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:30.599 we're seeing that has characterized the last really ten years almost is the recruitment of 592 00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:36.440 attention crisis that is hitting big city departments across the country, where departments cannot 593 00:41:36.519 --> 00:41:39.119 recruit enough officers. That I mean, where they are budgeted for more slots 594 00:41:39.119 --> 00:41:44.039 than they have filled, right that people are retiring at significantly higher rates. 595 00:41:44.039 --> 00:41:47.320 They're resigning at higher rates. They're leaving big city departments for their suburban counterparts, 596 00:41:47.320 --> 00:41:51.320 where the perception is is that hey, I'll get paid just as well, 597 00:41:51.360 --> 00:41:53.639 if not better, and my chances of being involved in a viral incident 598 00:41:53.719 --> 00:41:58.639 significantly lower because it's a very quaint and quiet place with almost new crime. 599 00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:04.239 Then five years down the road, the only guys got applying are the drugs 600 00:42:04.239 --> 00:42:07.920 from clock were goring exactly, which you know. So over time, which 601 00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:09.960 you end up seeing is that the sort of delta between the meeting and cop 602 00:42:09.960 --> 00:42:13.639 and the meeting and PERP starts to shrink. That's not a world I want 603 00:42:13.679 --> 00:42:15.960 to live in either, But that's the world that we're going to get if 604 00:42:15.960 --> 00:42:21.360 we continue to demonize the profession and disincentivize good people from taking that job. 605 00:42:21.400 --> 00:42:23.679 I mean, it's going to become the kind of the kind of career path 606 00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:28.440 where only people without options take it, and it reverts back to what it 607 00:42:28.480 --> 00:42:30.840 was in the nineteen sixties and seventies, which just just you know, a 608 00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:34.239 blue collar city job to take up your time. It wasn't really the kind 609 00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:37.599 of profession where motivated people were doing it because they really truly cared. And 610 00:42:37.599 --> 00:42:40.880 then we're willing to jump through hoops to do it. Even the departments that 611 00:42:40.920 --> 00:42:44.920 are able to kind of backfill these positions at a rate of one hundred percent, 612 00:42:44.920 --> 00:42:49.320 you gotta remember they're backfilling with officers that have almost no experience. So 613 00:42:49.559 --> 00:42:52.199 there's a brain drain issue, right. You're losing people with connections on the 614 00:42:52.239 --> 00:42:58.079 street, you're losing people with knowledge, with investigatory experience, and you're replacing 615 00:42:58.119 --> 00:43:00.320 them with rookies who still have a lot to learn, and or are people 616 00:43:00.360 --> 00:43:04.880 who benefited from the lowering of standards that were irrelicant the fact that you know, 617 00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:07.400 these departments were having trouble recruiting in the first place, so you know, 618 00:43:08.199 --> 00:43:12.880 ironically, what the reformers are going to get is actually more of the 619 00:43:12.880 --> 00:43:15.679 thing that they don't like, which you know, if I were more cynical 620 00:43:15.679 --> 00:43:19.199 than I am. You know, I might suggest that that's by design, 621 00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:21.880 right, the idea being that you want to sort of starve the system you 622 00:43:21.880 --> 00:43:23.880 don't like of the resources that it needs to be effective, so that you 623 00:43:23.920 --> 00:43:29.480 can point to the ineffectiveness as reason to dismantle it. Further, I have 624 00:43:29.519 --> 00:43:35.599 a final question, what are the time scales here? Two years ago, 625 00:43:35.679 --> 00:43:38.840 in a different arena, economics, I was essentially down on my knees begging 626 00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:46.800 the President and the Congress not to spend more money, because I know from 627 00:43:46.800 --> 00:43:53.199 having read some history that once you start inflation it is really hard to stop. 628 00:43:54.239 --> 00:43:58.079 And the response, of course, was, look, don't worry about 629 00:43:58.119 --> 00:44:00.960 it. We haven't had inflation for a long time, we have cheap money, 630 00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:05.719 interest rates, alow, it's going to be fine. And now we're 631 00:44:05.800 --> 00:44:13.199 not in a fine place. And I think underpinning some of the denial you 632 00:44:13.239 --> 00:44:17.480 see in the press and that the apathy you see in the public is this 633 00:44:17.679 --> 00:44:22.440 sense that well, if it gets bad, we'll just find better prosecutors and 634 00:44:22.440 --> 00:44:24.559 we'll just change the laws and we'll go back to what we're doing and all 635 00:44:24.599 --> 00:44:28.960 this will go away. Is that true? Or does this take a long 636 00:44:29.239 --> 00:44:31.719 time to fix? It's going to take a lot longer to fix than it 637 00:44:31.760 --> 00:44:35.519 takes a destroy. I mean the analogy I like to use here it is 638 00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:37.920 like getting into shape, right. I mean, you know you can work 639 00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:43.000 out every day, eat well, and it maybe you get the body that 640 00:44:43.039 --> 00:44:45.559 you want in a year, and you have to maintain that effort. You 641 00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:50.639 know, if you want to keep that body indefinitely. Two three months into 642 00:44:50.639 --> 00:44:52.960 a pandemic where you donut sitting in the house, the gym's closed, you 643 00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:55.639 know, there goes your six pack, right, I mean you can undo 644 00:44:55.679 --> 00:44:59.920 that progress a lot quicker than you can build it, right. I mean, 645 00:45:00.039 --> 00:45:02.079 you know, the Twin Towers came down in a few hours, it 646 00:45:02.599 --> 00:45:07.440 took years to build. Right. That That I think is a rule that 647 00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:10.119 holds across context, and I don't think the criminal justiceystem is any different. 648 00:45:10.199 --> 00:45:14.960 So yeah, if the idea is that we can continue to experiment and continue 649 00:45:14.960 --> 00:45:17.079 down this road, and if things truly truly get bad, we can always 650 00:45:17.079 --> 00:45:21.760 just reverse course and it'll be fine. No, you know there's going to 651 00:45:21.760 --> 00:45:25.639 be a lag between the policy response and the benefits that it produces. You 652 00:45:25.639 --> 00:45:30.039 know, these things are not immediate, just as there was a lag I 653 00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:34.239 think between the policy shifts that got us to this place and the sort of 654 00:45:34.360 --> 00:45:37.400 you know situation that we have now with crime. I mean lots of people 655 00:45:37.400 --> 00:45:39.559 pointed to New York City for years saying well, look, stops and frists 656 00:45:39.559 --> 00:45:44.239 are down x percent, and arrests are down x percent and incarceration is down 657 00:45:44.320 --> 00:45:45.840 x percent and the sky has fallen. It's like, well, give it 658 00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:49.599 a minute, right, I mean, Momentum is a thing. Inertia is 659 00:45:49.639 --> 00:45:53.480 a thing, and it exists in various ways, and so sometimes it's going 660 00:45:53.519 --> 00:45:59.519 to take time. And that's why I think you need sophisticated people who are 661 00:45:59.559 --> 00:46:04.599 imposition of decision making power that are not going to succumb to the narrative of 662 00:46:04.599 --> 00:46:08.519 the day, because that kind of fast response to you know, you know, 663 00:46:08.599 --> 00:46:12.760 kind of sticking your finger in the wind and seeing which way it's blowing 664 00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:15.599 is that's that's not how you should do policy, because the reality is is 665 00:46:15.639 --> 00:46:21.360 that you know, the decisions you make today may have consequences years down the 666 00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:24.840 road. Wait a minute, you're advocating for politicians to take the long term 667 00:46:24.880 --> 00:46:30.920 approach to force swear short term sugar games and think about what works best for 668 00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:34.559 the society in a structural, long term fashion and work towards that. That's 669 00:46:34.599 --> 00:46:37.480 what you're asked, that's what you're asking about politicians today. Well you can 670 00:46:37.519 --> 00:46:40.960 find more of that pie in the sky, castles in the air, idealism, 671 00:46:40.960 --> 00:46:44.480 a City Journal, and in rafael book as well. He'd right, 672 00:46:44.639 --> 00:46:47.000 He's right, you know, and shucks, we didn't even get to the 673 00:46:47.039 --> 00:46:52.159 myth of non violent crime, which means we'll have to have you on again, 674 00:46:52.239 --> 00:46:53.800 and we hope this time we'll have you on again after there hasn't been 675 00:46:53.840 --> 00:46:57.199 some big crime thing that we need to talk about, but just to talk 676 00:46:57.280 --> 00:47:00.679 discursively and at length about the idea, or you folk listening could just go 677 00:47:00.760 --> 00:47:04.159 find the work yourself and read it and be smarter for it. Rafael, 678 00:47:04.239 --> 00:47:07.039 thanks so much for joining us today. It's been a pleasure. Thank you 679 00:47:07.079 --> 00:47:10.360 all appreciate it. Thanks Rafael. And we have to remember that we're up 680 00:47:10.400 --> 00:47:17.599 against the people who who have the Fox Butterworth approach. You'll remember the Fox 681 00:47:17.679 --> 00:47:21.920 Butterworth approach. Fox Butterworth wrote a famous piece in the New York Times which 682 00:47:21.920 --> 00:47:28.519 I believed had the headlines crime is done, prisons are full, yet crime 683 00:47:28.599 --> 00:47:32.960 is down, or perhaps the other way around, saying you don't how does 684 00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:37.199 this We don't have so much crime anymore, but yet our prisons are absolutely 685 00:47:37.239 --> 00:47:39.760 full. What's What's what strange thing is going on here is if you couldn't 686 00:47:39.800 --> 00:47:44.760 see the connection between the two of them. Yes, indeed, but what 687 00:47:44.800 --> 00:47:46.519 are you going to do? I mean, there are people you hate this. 688 00:47:46.760 --> 00:47:49.880 I'm not one of those who say, you know what, it's all 689 00:47:50.840 --> 00:47:54.679 it's all Cloward Piven, it's all w ef it's all intentional, it's all 690 00:47:54.719 --> 00:47:59.079 a plot to bring things down. Because that presupposes that these people at these 691 00:47:59.159 --> 00:48:04.719 levels of government are smart and I don't particular anything it's smart and capable and 692 00:48:04.800 --> 00:48:06.880 all powerful. And I don't think that's the case at all. I think 693 00:48:06.880 --> 00:48:10.000 they're guided by lazy, unexamined sort of ideology that just lets them wave away 694 00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:15.039 things and feel good about themselves and know that political gains will be will be 695 00:48:15.119 --> 00:48:23.800 had. But you have to wonder though the idea somehow that well, John, 696 00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:28.000 for example, you were going to ask him another question before we left, 697 00:48:28.039 --> 00:48:30.440 while I like my thoughts, and that was going to be what because 698 00:48:30.440 --> 00:48:31.880 I know you had another one, why don't you ask us? And then 699 00:48:31.880 --> 00:48:36.920 we'll pretend that we know what we're talking about. Yeah, I just think 700 00:48:37.960 --> 00:48:42.719 it's it's kind of been touched on a little bit before, but the entire 701 00:48:42.960 --> 00:48:46.599 problem of what I'm concerned about. Yes, we have this crime going on 702 00:48:46.679 --> 00:48:51.719 now, but more and more you're seeing people fight back on their own. 703 00:48:51.920 --> 00:48:53.480 Look, if no one else is going to stop this, I will. 704 00:48:54.719 --> 00:49:00.840 I live in an open carry state, there is no need for any kind 705 00:49:00.880 --> 00:49:06.760 of restrictions on carrying. Thankfully, the vast majority at least of owners here 706 00:49:06.960 --> 00:49:10.360 and those who carry very responsible, very well trained. It's kind of a 707 00:49:10.360 --> 00:49:16.320 cultural thing with Arizona. It's always been very open in arms policy. However, 708 00:49:16.360 --> 00:49:20.480 what I'm concerned about is people are just going to take into their own 709 00:49:20.519 --> 00:49:23.519 hands, and the people trying to stop the crime will be killed or harmed, 710 00:49:24.159 --> 00:49:31.679 or bystanders will be Someone will eventually enforce the basic common sense rules here, 711 00:49:32.039 --> 00:49:36.159 and if police don't do it, someone else will. And frankly, 712 00:49:36.199 --> 00:49:43.519 I'd rather have a highly trained police force intervening in these things than some guy 713 00:49:43.639 --> 00:49:47.199 like me. It's not like somebody's going to run in and shoot. It's 714 00:49:47.239 --> 00:49:51.280 like, oh wait a minute, I was in the Marines. Yes I'm 715 00:49:51.320 --> 00:49:54.920 seventy now, but I'm going to stop this rapscallion right here. A lot 716 00:49:54.960 --> 00:50:00.480 of people are going to get hurt because this cannot continue and people have kind 717 00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:04.599 of had enough. And that's kind of my concern is that, you know, 718 00:50:04.960 --> 00:50:08.239 they're always after a fact, there's always unintended consequences. And we mentioned 719 00:50:08.239 --> 00:50:13.719 the Bernie gets but a lot of it too is just a grouchy old man. 720 00:50:14.280 --> 00:50:19.159 And admittedly I am one jumping in to stop a bad situation and more 721 00:50:19.199 --> 00:50:21.719 people getting hurt. Yeah, Charles, do you think I mean this is 722 00:50:21.719 --> 00:50:25.920 what I think about two. I mean, there's there's just the extraordinary quantity 723 00:50:27.280 --> 00:50:32.119 of FAO f a fo tweets on x or x's on tweets on Twitter, 724 00:50:32.719 --> 00:50:37.920 people who just love to play all the clips of the craw of the crook 725 00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:42.639 getting what's what's due to him. Half of them are Brazilian off duty policeman 726 00:50:42.639 --> 00:50:45.599 who are shooting all over the place, and they always seem to be off 727 00:50:45.679 --> 00:50:50.599 duty Brazilian policeman. But when you look at this and you see, okay, 728 00:50:50.599 --> 00:50:53.840 it's great that somebody defended that guy defended, you know, intervened, 729 00:50:54.400 --> 00:50:59.920 that the guy with the big cowboy had the sunglasses did shoot the Robert's great 730 00:51:00.199 --> 00:51:05.000 that that person did actually use a firearm, correctly, it still is not 731 00:51:05.079 --> 00:51:08.880 a society that is well, it's a society in the in the process of 732 00:51:08.920 --> 00:51:13.119 dissolution. I mean, because a you don't want those people who are going 733 00:51:13.159 --> 00:51:15.639 to be doing those things out there. You want them to be put away. 734 00:51:15.679 --> 00:51:19.800 You want you want to have them dissuaded from doing things because they know 735 00:51:19.880 --> 00:51:24.719 that process that capture and prosecution is nearby certain and incarceration. It's not a 736 00:51:24.719 --> 00:51:27.760 good sign. I mean, occasionally, yeah, you like to see the 737 00:51:27.760 --> 00:51:31.400 good guy with a gun save somebody, but it's not. It's dozens and 738 00:51:31.440 --> 00:51:36.519 dozens and dozens of videos flowing through your little glowing electronic device every day telling 739 00:51:36.559 --> 00:51:40.559 you of the citizens doing things that it does not speak well for a society 740 00:51:42.039 --> 00:51:45.280 and its strengths, and the reason go on, yes and no, yes 741 00:51:45.320 --> 00:51:49.840 and no. Well that's a kind of nuanced, sort of wishy washy approach 742 00:51:49.880 --> 00:51:52.400 that I would It's all right, so yes and no, I mean, 743 00:51:52.440 --> 00:51:57.519 go on, go on. Well, I think that the response that you're 744 00:51:57.599 --> 00:52:06.320 describing, the FAFO response, the sharing of videos, it's actually a sign 745 00:52:06.400 --> 00:52:09.800 of health in much the same way it doesn't bother me. I'm not I'm 746 00:52:09.840 --> 00:52:14.679 not I'm not proude. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. What I'm saying 747 00:52:14.760 --> 00:52:22.199 is that I think that the in a similar vein the rise in vigilante movies 748 00:52:22.280 --> 00:52:30.239 in the nineteen seventies and eighties, putting a dirty harry on a pedestal or 749 00:52:30.360 --> 00:52:39.199 healthy instincts, providing that the means by which that instinct is channeled is cronic 750 00:52:39.360 --> 00:52:51.239 justice reform and not the establishment of vigilante militias. So I I suppose we 751 00:52:51.280 --> 00:52:55.519 all agree on this. I'm not at all bothered by this feeling of righteous 752 00:52:55.559 --> 00:53:01.760 indignation that manifested self in John Wick movies or what you are. I just 753 00:53:01.880 --> 00:53:07.960 don't want people to confuse that for real life. I say this not to 754 00:53:08.039 --> 00:53:13.079 argue with you, James or John, but because I do see some of 755 00:53:13.119 --> 00:53:22.079 the same people who are the architects of this progressive prosecution disaster looking down on 756 00:53:22.199 --> 00:53:24.719 those who write FAFO on Twitter and say, oh, no, you shouldn't 757 00:53:24.760 --> 00:53:28.639 think that. Well, actually, no, you've got to choose one. 758 00:53:29.159 --> 00:53:37.000 You've got to choose one. If you don't want people to lionize Bernie gets, 759 00:53:37.039 --> 00:53:43.039 then put police on subway. You can't not do all of the things 760 00:53:43.039 --> 00:53:46.400 that people expect from the government and then say to them, and also, 761 00:53:46.440 --> 00:53:52.119 you're not allowed to fantasize about doing it yourself. That's just a completely unsustainable 762 00:53:52.280 --> 00:53:55.559 position. I know it's not your position, but that actually is the logical 763 00:53:55.679 --> 00:54:00.599 endpoint of some of the people who say defa the police and end in constoration. 764 00:54:00.800 --> 00:54:05.679 I mean, there are unfortunately they're relatively influential with an elite culture, 765 00:54:05.760 --> 00:54:08.719 if not the country at large. There are people out there who write essays 766 00:54:08.760 --> 00:54:14.320 in the nation saying we should have no prisons, we should have no courts, 767 00:54:14.559 --> 00:54:19.320 we should have no laws in effect, because these are all tools of 768 00:54:19.400 --> 00:54:24.519 imperialism or of capitalists. And that's what I was getting into when I say 769 00:54:24.519 --> 00:54:28.960 that there's no cloud Piven, there's no grand strategy and the rest of it. 770 00:54:29.079 --> 00:54:31.119 They're not that smart, they're not that capable. What they are is 771 00:54:31.159 --> 00:54:35.960 holding to a whole bunch of ideas that is grounded in root causism. That 772 00:54:36.039 --> 00:54:39.320 the idea that well, you can't really punish people for these things because it's 773 00:54:39.320 --> 00:54:44.960 a reflection of certain realities in this country and its country is founding and it's 774 00:54:45.119 --> 00:54:50.880 very narrow, and that until those things are addressed and structurally reformed, and 775 00:54:51.079 --> 00:54:54.960 structurally, root and branch, everything's taken out. You can't do anything you 776 00:54:55.320 --> 00:55:00.639 ought not to do something. You can, but you shouldn't because the real 777 00:55:00.679 --> 00:55:04.880 problem is America without whoever in many case you want to spell it and so, 778 00:55:05.000 --> 00:55:07.400 and I mean, that's an idea they've held unmolested in their heads since 779 00:55:07.440 --> 00:55:10.440 they were seventeen eighteen, you know, hit and taking the first hit out 780 00:55:10.480 --> 00:55:14.920 the bond, and they regarded this as the sign of an intellectual, enlightened 781 00:55:14.920 --> 00:55:19.199 person, you know, a nice, wonderful trans national hand holding kumbaye person 782 00:55:19.199 --> 00:55:22.440 who would guide us all to the to the Davos paradise around the corner. 783 00:55:22.880 --> 00:55:29.119 But unfortunately it's nonsense. It's absolute nonsense. And you're you're right. So 784 00:55:29.239 --> 00:55:32.800 what you mentioned the John Wick movies, which are you know, gratuitous and 785 00:55:34.199 --> 00:55:36.639 blood stirring and all the rest of it. But when you go back to 786 00:55:36.880 --> 00:55:38.320 Clint Eastwood, and you go back to Charles Bronson, and you go back 787 00:55:38.320 --> 00:55:43.679 to all those seventies urban fantasies, they were movies, and they were not 788 00:55:43.840 --> 00:55:45.320 very good movies. I mean, I took a look at Death Wish the 789 00:55:45.320 --> 00:55:50.920 other day. I started watching it. It's just awful. Do you remember 790 00:55:50.920 --> 00:55:53.679 who one of the criminals is who comes in and terrorizes the family of Charles 791 00:55:53.679 --> 00:55:57.880 Brons. Yeah, I know Charles Bronson, who's an architect, by the 792 00:55:57.920 --> 00:56:00.400 way, And only in nineteen seventy one, ever could somebody with those lapels 793 00:56:00.440 --> 00:56:06.079 and that mustache be an architect instead of a Camel's cigarette spokesman or a porn 794 00:56:06.119 --> 00:56:09.400 star. Okay, so John knows this one. We'll see if Charles does 795 00:56:09.480 --> 00:56:15.360 one of the Because these movies always have the punks that you just want to 796 00:56:15.360 --> 00:56:21.000 see get it, because they just they're they're just awful. They used to 797 00:56:21.039 --> 00:56:23.679 be the beat daddio guys in the in the late fifties and sixties, like 798 00:56:23.760 --> 00:56:27.679 hey man, and they'd be taunting and all the rest of it. You 799 00:56:27.719 --> 00:56:32.079 just wanted them dead. And it was the seventies punks, the switchblading, 800 00:56:32.719 --> 00:56:37.440 you know, creepy prvy types who were just there to take you women folk. 801 00:56:38.039 --> 00:56:45.800 Who was the bad rapist in Death Wish? Criminal Jeff Arge, criminal, 802 00:56:45.920 --> 00:56:49.559 Jeff goldbl He was a thug. I'm glad he was not typecast in 803 00:56:49.599 --> 00:56:54.960 that way. He was very hesitant thug, but herbane sophisticated. But yes, 804 00:56:55.079 --> 00:57:00.880 he was speaking of herbane and sophisticated right, speaking of her and sophisticated 805 00:57:00.960 --> 00:57:04.320 less. Before we go, Cherld, how do you feel about the restoration 806 00:57:04.480 --> 00:57:07.800 of the dress code in the Senate that we no longer have to be we 807 00:57:07.880 --> 00:57:10.679 have to have schlump chic. I'm all in favor of a dress code in 808 00:57:10.719 --> 00:57:16.840 the Senate because I think that clothes are a classic time and place issue. 809 00:57:17.239 --> 00:57:22.239 I am not somebody who spends most of my day's dress to the nines. 810 00:57:22.320 --> 00:57:27.719 I live on the beach, and I dress accordingly. But I wouldn't wear 811 00:57:27.719 --> 00:57:32.000 the clothes that I wear to the beach to a funeral. And I wouldn't 812 00:57:32.000 --> 00:57:36.599 wear them if I were in the military, and I don't think I should 813 00:57:36.639 --> 00:57:39.599 wear them in the US Senate either, or if I were President of the 814 00:57:39.719 --> 00:57:44.840 United States. And the other observation I have at this, which is not 815 00:57:44.880 --> 00:57:46.920 mine, is yuvol Evins, but I'm stealing it, is that this is 816 00:57:47.000 --> 00:57:52.559 a classic example of somebody who has gone into an institution that is much bigger 817 00:57:52.559 --> 00:57:55.920 than him, that predates him by hundreds of years. And instead of saying, 818 00:57:57.320 --> 00:58:00.480 well, I wished to become a part of this, therefore I will 819 00:58:00.519 --> 00:58:05.559 be a part of it, has said my wants and needs a superior and 820 00:58:05.760 --> 00:58:10.760 this institution must change for no obvious reason. It's not as if, and 821 00:58:10.880 --> 00:58:14.880 I know this will sound a little bit chellish, but it's not as if 822 00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:21.039 John Fetterman can suddenly process audio properly if he puts on a hoodie. And 823 00:58:21.159 --> 00:58:25.880 there is no good reason for this at all. It's pure want. So 824 00:58:27.199 --> 00:58:29.960 I think it's excellent that the Senate has pushed back. It's given me a 825 00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:34.079 little bit of faith actually in the system to say no. Excellent John, 826 00:58:34.119 --> 00:58:38.920 your last thoughts on the matter. You're wearing a seeing senator grew from He 827 00:58:39.079 --> 00:58:45.480 just reminds you of grew from me. With his legs are holding up a 828 00:58:45.519 --> 00:58:49.320 lot of They are the real heroes here, John Futterman's legs holding up that 829 00:58:49.480 --> 00:58:55.000 frame. But it's not about fashion. It's it's about respect, respect for 830 00:58:55.079 --> 00:59:00.679 the institution, as Charles says, respect for other people. I had the 831 00:59:00.719 --> 00:59:06.960 experience of being at one of these crazy fantasy pools at a resort with my 832 00:59:07.119 --> 00:59:08.719 kids, and I hadn't been to a place like that in quite a while, 833 00:59:08.800 --> 00:59:13.760 and I'm looking around and I remember muttering to my wife, people really 834 00:59:13.800 --> 00:59:17.199 need to wear more clothes. It wasn't like anything they were wearing with scandalous. 835 00:59:17.320 --> 00:59:22.400 It's just like, I don't need that kind of gentlemen of my age 836 00:59:22.840 --> 00:59:29.400 wearing silver speedos. Maybe reel it back in a little bit, show difference 837 00:59:29.440 --> 00:59:34.320 to the organization, show respect to your colleagues and the people you are at 838 00:59:34.400 --> 00:59:37.840 least claiming to serve. I agree, but at a resort, you know, 839 00:59:37.320 --> 00:59:39.679 it is a place where it's hot and there's water. And frankly, 840 00:59:39.840 --> 00:59:43.960 if you can carry it off when you're sixty two, more power to you. 841 00:59:45.039 --> 00:59:46.639 And I say that, and I'm going to quit now before anybody demands 842 00:59:46.719 --> 00:59:50.119 some sort of photographic proof, which I would have to provide. And we 843 00:59:50.199 --> 00:59:52.599 all know how the yellow tank top went. This podcast brought to you by 844 00:59:52.760 --> 00:59:57.320 Beam. If you want to sleep, Beam is where you want to go. 845 00:59:57.480 --> 01:00:00.039 Beam. Oh it's this great stuff. Tell you and like I did, 846 01:00:00.079 --> 01:00:02.320 I tell you about the little electric mixer. It's great anyway, go 847 01:00:02.440 --> 01:00:06.519 there, linked there and support them for supporting us. And if you could 848 01:00:06.559 --> 01:00:08.639 take five minutes to give us a five star review, that's right, one 849 01:00:08.719 --> 01:00:10.840 minute per review. No, you can do it in five seconds, go 850 01:00:12.039 --> 01:00:15.760 click do it. It'll help people find the show, and those people the 851 01:00:15.800 --> 01:00:17.760 show and find Ricochet and join Ricochet, which you should do if you have 852 01:00:17.880 --> 01:00:23.239 not already, and we will continue on into the next decade and belong there, 853 01:00:23.320 --> 01:00:25.639 he said, decade like John F. Kennedy talking about the moon. 854 01:00:25.920 --> 01:00:29.039 That's it. Maybe Peter and Rob will be back next week. If not, 855 01:00:29.119 --> 01:00:30.519 we'll have John and Charlie, which is always fun. And thank you 856 01:00:30.639 --> 01:00:34.719 guys for showing up. It's been a great podcast. Great to talk to 857 01:00:34.760 --> 01:00:37.960 you again and see you again. And we will see everybody in the comments 858 01:00:37.039 --> 01:00:42.239 at Ricochet, not five point oh Charlie, that's coming when Charlie when went 859 01:00:42.360 --> 01:00:50.039 when it is out of beta testing. We have completed the podcast side of 860 01:00:50.079 --> 01:00:53.000 it completely, all posts, comments, set trip and migrated. We're just 861 01:00:53.079 --> 01:00:55.719 working on the interface. When they got the beated data, we'll know, 862 01:00:57.039 --> 01:00:59.880 but for now, we'll see you all in the comments at Ricochet. Four 863 01:01:00.199 --> 01:01:07.119 pointo. Ricochet joined the conversation.