1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,799 It's magnificent. I got the full Wolford Brimley going on. I was going 2 00:00:03,879 --> 00:00:09,759 for tombstone and I got Wilford Brimley. So ask not what your country can 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:15,400 do for you, ask what you can do for your country. Mister Garbutshaw, 4 00:00:16,359 --> 00:00:26,359 tear down this wall. Read my lips. It's the Ricor Shape podcast, 5 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:29,920 usually with Peter Robinson and Rob Long, but today I'm James Lola's talking 6 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:32,560 to John Gabriel and Charles A. C. W. Cook. Our guest 7 00:00:32,679 --> 00:00:36,000 Raphael Mangolo is going to talk to us about crime, urban disorder and what 8 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,960 can we do well we can have ourselves a podcast. A robbery charge, 9 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:46,200 a burglary charge, it's that charge receiving stolen proper. Whatever we possibly can 10 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:50,280 apply to this situation, we're going to apply it. The DA and the 11 00:00:50,399 --> 00:00:54,520 Justice Department of the courts need to make sure these people pay a price for 12 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:58,880 what they did. Welcome everybody. It's the Rigor Shape Podcast number six hundred 13 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:03,280 and sixty. James Lyle's here in Minneapolis, Minnesota, overcast, dank fall 14 00:01:03,399 --> 00:01:07,079 day. Rob and Peter are off on various missions. We'll hear about them 15 00:01:07,159 --> 00:01:11,760 later, unless, of course, they're classified and sitting in standing in doing 16 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,959 a woman's job, doing an excellent job are our friend John Gabriel and Charles 17 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:21,359 C. W. Cook. Gentlemen, welcome, Thank you for having me 18 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:25,120 slightly preempted. Whether or not I do an excellent job. I may not 19 00:01:25,359 --> 00:01:27,560 do an excellent That's entirely possible. I'm being kind. I have decided to 20 00:01:27,599 --> 00:01:32,359 avoid excellence for the next hour or so. All Right, now that we've 21 00:01:32,359 --> 00:01:38,200 reset our expectations and everybody is adjusted accordingly, we proceed news Diane Feinstein, 22 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,439 and I wonder how many of the obituaries are going to say Feinstein, who 23 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:48,959 had a Chinese spy embedded in her organization for twenty years, etc. Etc. 24 00:01:49,519 --> 00:01:53,400 Do you guys remember that fount that driver a driver, and the general 25 00:01:53,439 --> 00:01:57,640 reaction to having any member of Chinese espionage embedded in her office and driving her 26 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:04,879 around listening to her phone calls for one of years was wow? Anyway, 27 00:02:04,959 --> 00:02:07,879 that was it? That was it? That was it? That was it. 28 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:12,599 We were assured that nothing was passed along because apparently the Chinese plays such 29 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:16,800 a long game that they say, no, wait two decades before you finally 30 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:21,840 contact us and give us some information. So your thoughts on the passage. 31 00:02:21,879 --> 00:02:23,719 She voted yesterday, by the way, in the Senate. Apparently they wheeled 32 00:02:23,759 --> 00:02:29,599 her in and had her Rubbert Sampson or something. The term elder abuse is 33 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:30,719 being floated and round an awful lot. I went two minds on this. 34 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,479 I mean, one, my father was incredibly vital and smart up until the 35 00:02:34,479 --> 00:02:36,599 age of ninety three, so I would have trusted him in the Senate. 36 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:38,879 But on the other hand, you admire the fact that people are able to 37 00:02:38,879 --> 00:02:43,400 be productive in their golden years. But on the other hand, we're seeing 38 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:47,800 the effects of a gerontocracy with its ideas embedded in the great society, or 39 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:53,879 a few years afterwards, still hanging on this this aged withered Ramora on the 40 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:58,919 body of the American body politic, and you just are kind of glad to 41 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:04,439 see that it may not seem like the permanent rule of old people that it 42 00:03:04,439 --> 00:03:07,360 does seem now. And I say that as an old person. I suppose 43 00:03:07,879 --> 00:03:09,120 I think it's an issue we're going to have to deal with more and more 44 00:03:09,159 --> 00:03:15,159 in the future, especially as medicine gets better and better people are living longer. 45 00:03:15,319 --> 00:03:19,759 Having many types of cancer is no longer the death sentence it once was, 46 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:24,759 thank God. However, that exposes you to the other issues of the 47 00:03:24,759 --> 00:03:29,080 mind when people grow older. Like you said, that's why I'm against term 48 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:32,960 limits or an age limit. Some people are very vital. My grandmother lived 49 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:38,680 to one hundred and one and she was feisty to the end. On the 50 00:03:38,719 --> 00:03:42,280 other hand, my father who had passed away due to Alzheimer's and dementia, 51 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,719 he was otherwise completely healthy. And I think more and more that's something that 52 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:51,639 a lot of people in America aren't quite prepared for. More and more we're 53 00:03:51,639 --> 00:03:54,439 going to have these people who are just hey, this person has a good 54 00:03:54,479 --> 00:03:59,520 brand, they can get reelected, they have a last name that people in 55 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:04,520 this disc Rick, No, let's run him again. And how I don't 56 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:10,879 know. As for me, if I make it after a fabled career in 57 00:04:11,199 --> 00:04:15,840 DC Senate, president whatever, and make it to seventy five, I will 58 00:04:15,879 --> 00:04:20,000 be pining for a lake house and time with the grand kids and maybe sitting 59 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:25,600 on a dock and fishing. And how some of these people in Finstein's case, 60 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:30,639 sadly, I think she was being abused, much like Biden is today. 61 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:35,639 But you wonder how alluring power must be that these people will not just 62 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,879 take the lake house option. Because boy, the rest of us, I 63 00:04:40,879 --> 00:04:44,920 think would Charles. One of the more interesting things being floated today on Twitter, 64 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:46,800 which I'll never call X. If I ever call it X, just 65 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:51,160 slap me, is that Gavin Newsom is going to appoint Kamala Harris as the 66 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:56,480 replacement Senator, thereby getting her out of the deep slot and allowing Newsom to 67 00:04:56,639 --> 00:05:01,639 slide into the presidential campaign while he he's not for a couple of reasons, 68 00:05:03,639 --> 00:05:13,240 namely, the twenty fifth Amendment requires a replacement Vice president to be agreed to 69 00:05:13,319 --> 00:05:17,480 by both the House and the Senate. The House is run by Republicans, 70 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:26,519 the Senate is run by Joe Manchin, and there is no way that that 71 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:33,319 combination of power players is going to permit the Democrats to maneuver themselves into a 72 00:05:33,399 --> 00:05:42,360 more attractive electoral position by getting rid of the millstone that is Kamala Harrison replacing 73 00:05:42,439 --> 00:05:47,839 him as someone potentially better. And there's a second reason related to that, 74 00:05:48,319 --> 00:05:57,199 which is that the Shenanigans that the Republicans would legitimately pull could actually lead to 75 00:05:57,199 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker McCarthy because to get to the point at which the House was asked to 76 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:05,959 acquiesce to Joe Biden's replacement, Kamala Harris would have to resign. She resigned 77 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:11,040 and then wasn't replaced, and then Biden died, which is not that remote 78 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:17,839 possibility, either now or in a second term, then the automatic, constitutionally 79 00:06:17,879 --> 00:06:23,199 mandated replacement would be a Republican. So well, it's a funny idea, 80 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:30,040 but it's not going to happen. On the Dan Finstein question that you asked, 81 00:06:30,199 --> 00:06:35,279 John, I think there's a good and a bad argument in favor of 82 00:06:35,319 --> 00:06:41,759 people staying in politics too long. I've heard people say a variation of what 83 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:44,800 John did, which is, why wouldn't you just want the Lake House? 84 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:49,879 Yes, I would. I think with Diane Feinstein a lot of other politicians 85 00:06:49,879 --> 00:06:54,199 though, this is what they like doing, right, so they're never going 86 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:59,560 to voluntarily do something else because this is their idea of fun. That being 87 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:04,000 the case, I'm not that sad for her in the sense that she died 88 00:07:04,079 --> 00:07:10,639 doing what she loved. What I find distasteful about it and sad about it 89 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:15,160 is that she couldn't do it anymore. I mean, the videos of her 90 00:07:15,199 --> 00:07:19,120 that we saw from the Senate were just terrifying. This was not Chuck Grassley, 91 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:23,720 who's almost that age, he's eighty nine, who sprightly goes to every 92 00:07:23,759 --> 00:07:27,399 Iowa county when he runs for reelection, seems to run around cornfields for fun. 93 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:32,240 This is a woman who was so attached to the one thing she liked 94 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:36,600 in life, which was politics, that she was being wheeled in to cast 95 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:41,959 votes that she couldn't understand. To me, that's the tragedy of this, 96 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,360 and that's where the older abuse comes in. They knew she wanted it, 97 00:07:45,399 --> 00:07:48,000 They wanted to use her, so they did, and the rest of us 98 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:53,560 had to watch it and avert her eyes. Indeed, well, it's preparing 99 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:59,040 yourself for a weekend of pains to her, to her service and the revest 100 00:07:59,079 --> 00:08:01,000 of it, and will be to see who the replacement is going to be, 101 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:05,879 which will be interesting. Indeed, onto the debates, Chris Christy called 102 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:13,360 Donald Trump, Donald Duck, and Steve Martin today on X said that actually, 103 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:18,199 I'm sorry on Twitter, I said today that no, Donald Duck was 104 00:08:18,279 --> 00:08:22,920 a war veteran. Donald Duck was was faithful today. See Donald Duck took 105 00:08:22,959 --> 00:08:26,439 great care of it, and he enlisted off a bunch of wonderful things about 106 00:08:26,439 --> 00:08:28,079 Donald Duck and then say, and you, sir, are no Donald Duck. 107 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,440 Okay, thanks Steve, that's funny, but it's for the rest of 108 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:35,519 it. I'm not sure what Mark had left. People were talking about Vivic's 109 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:39,919 hair, which seemed to grow like a chia pet throughout the whole thing. 110 00:08:39,399 --> 00:08:43,600 But Bergham did well. You know, I'm always rooting for the North Dakota 111 00:08:43,639 --> 00:08:46,960 guys. He's solid man. Got some feistiness, a lot of talking over 112 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:52,039 everybody else, and mostly people complaining about the questions themselves, like why not 113 00:08:52,399 --> 00:08:56,440 why not just hand this over to mother Jones in the nation, because you're 114 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:58,960 going to get the same sort of questions. What were your thoughts, winners, 115 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:03,879 losers? Charles? Am I winner or a loser in that array? 116 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:11,240 These choose your own adventure Charles, Yeah, I think that. As ever, 117 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:18,000 all Republican politics, and maybe even all politics takes place against the backdrop 118 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:22,320 of the one hundred and ninety foot golden Donald Trump that towers over everything, 119 00:09:22,639 --> 00:09:28,799 and this is no different. I wish it were different, but I saw 120 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:37,080 nothing on that stage that changed the narrative or changed the headlines. And this 121 00:09:37,159 --> 00:09:46,039 is why these late attempts to introduce new characters into the show probably our futile 122 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:50,360 as well. Oh, well, they've only the governor of Georgia were up 123 00:09:50,399 --> 00:09:52,960 there, or the governor of Virginia were up there, or the governor of 124 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:56,320 Texas were up there. Well, really, why they're going to punch Donald 125 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:01,919 Trump in the face. It's not clear what it will take to change it. 126 00:10:01,039 --> 00:10:09,159 Certainly nothing happened at the debate that did. I was equally appalled by 127 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:18,919 the questions that the lady from Univision asked. This is a bizarre moment in 128 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:26,440 our politics where people start sentences with as somebody who has certain immutable characteristics. 129 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:31,960 It would be really weird if I did that. If I would be But 130 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:35,360 if I were asked to moderate a debate and I just said as a tall 131 00:10:35,399 --> 00:10:41,840 American, you know, or as a white person, I must ask as 132 00:10:41,879 --> 00:10:46,559 if, as if, as if that is the way that presidents ought to 133 00:10:46,639 --> 00:10:52,559 think. So, you know, from both the question aside and the answer 134 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,960 as side, I just didn't think it did much to change anything, which 135 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,320 is a problem. If you would like to see the Republican Party move on 136 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,399 from Donald Trump as a member of the beard having community, I think you 137 00:11:05,399 --> 00:11:11,360 should have said, John, Yeah, I think what was frustrating to about 138 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:16,759 when they have a reporter asking questions in a Visione or Telemundo a Movise Networks 139 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:24,799 is when they decide, I'm only asking questions about yes, as Latin X 140 00:11:24,799 --> 00:11:30,960 woman, as let's talk immigration for the fourth time tonight. It reminds me 141 00:11:31,159 --> 00:11:35,639 of the typical Panels shows on cable news where they have three white men and 142 00:11:35,879 --> 00:11:41,759 one black woman and they ask the white guys about the economy and healthcare and 143 00:11:43,039 --> 00:11:46,360 foreign relations. Then they say, now let's get to race, and every 144 00:11:46,399 --> 00:11:48,639 head just turns to this poor black woman, and I'm like, is that 145 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:52,159 all she's good for? She's probably an expert in all sorts of things, 146 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:56,879 and that's what it always feels like. Okay, let's serve this constituency here. 147 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:01,480 It's like I have the sneaking suspicion living in the Southwest, much like 148 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:05,720 Charles I'm sure in Florida, surrounded by Hispanic neighbors. They tend to be 149 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:09,600 interested in the exact same things I am. Well, not so much like 150 00:12:09,919 --> 00:12:15,679 Byzantine Empire history, but why is my gas costing so much? Why is 151 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:20,080 my grocery bill so high? They care about things that human beings and Americans 152 00:12:20,279 --> 00:12:26,639 care about, and it's just kind of frustrating to see because it's less pandering 153 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:30,600 than it is belittling. It seems, especially at this point, totally fair. 154 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:35,159 Yes, it's the end result of identity politics, or reduced down to 155 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:37,720 as Charles said, and the mutable characteristic, which is why I was interested 156 00:12:37,759 --> 00:12:41,480 in the day of the debate. Actually I didn't watch the debate because I 157 00:12:41,159 --> 00:12:46,600 went to a community forum in my neighborhood to see a debate of sorts TwixT 158 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:52,279 city councilperson and the one who wants to unseat her. And this was telling 159 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,919 no Republicans, nobody remotely conservative, because what's the point, There's no point 160 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:01,360 in running anybody in my district had somebody who was sort of kind of moderate 161 00:13:01,399 --> 00:13:05,399 of the Democratic Farmer Labor Party, and then the opposition, the person who 162 00:13:05,399 --> 00:13:13,559 wanted to unseat her was the Democratic Socialist Workers of America actual socialist, and 163 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,240 it was one of the more entertaining and embarrassing things I've ever seen. They 164 00:13:16,279 --> 00:13:18,960 would ask the person who currently is on the city council, what you know, 165 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,480 what do we do about crime, what do we do about housing, 166 00:13:22,519 --> 00:13:24,279 what do we do, et cetera. And she would come up with a 167 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:28,679 fairly detailed anadine boilerplate series of ideas that you know, some work, some 168 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,600 don't, and it essentially shows her ability to grasp the issue. They go 169 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:35,799 to the socialist and you get nothing but bullsheet tripe about how well, it's 170 00:13:35,879 --> 00:13:39,039 ridiculous to even answer the question as long as the capitalist system exists right now, 171 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:43,279 because it exploits the workers, it takes their labor, we need to 172 00:13:43,279 --> 00:13:46,120 replace it with power to the people and then read right. So, in 173 00:13:46,159 --> 00:13:48,840 other words, she wouldn't answer any question because like, what's the point of 174 00:13:48,879 --> 00:13:52,919 addressing this until we completely undo the capitalist system. So when you're hearing somebody 175 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:58,120 use capitalists and parasite and workers in factory floor and all the rest of it, 176 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,519 it's hilarious and I could not stop laughing in the back of the room. 177 00:14:01,519 --> 00:14:03,360 I'm just I'm like, you can't be serious. And what's more, 178 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:07,320 she was an idiot. She couldn't finish her sentences. She would trail off. 179 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:11,039 She would just say the same thing and was absolutely trounced. So there 180 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:15,919 you have it. It's almost like this parody performance of our politics here in 181 00:14:15,919 --> 00:14:18,879 Minneapolis. It's like, well, you can't really say we're crazy a lefty 182 00:14:18,919 --> 00:14:20,960 because here's the crazy lefty and they don't get elected. No, it gets 183 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:26,279 elected as the person who says this asked about whether or not old people are 184 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:30,759 worried about getting, oh, I don't know, pushed out of their homes 185 00:14:30,799 --> 00:14:33,039 by taxes. They own their taxes, but their homes outright, But the 186 00:14:33,039 --> 00:14:35,159 taxes go up and up and they can't pay them, and they lose them. 187 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:39,799 They lose them, the state takes their house that they own. And 188 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:41,799 so she said, yeah, it is a concern. So one of the 189 00:14:41,799 --> 00:14:45,240 things we're doing is we're starting a commission that's going to look at the programs 190 00:14:45,279 --> 00:14:46,679 that we have in this city and see whether or not they're actually working. 191 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:50,600 Which is nice to hear, but you'd like to think that there was something 192 00:14:50,639 --> 00:14:56,080 like that in place before, but no, apparently not. Something started, 193 00:14:56,080 --> 00:15:00,559 something's funded, must be must be funded until the last Trump blows. But 194 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,039 we're supposed to believe, of course, that when they find something that isn't 195 00:15:03,039 --> 00:15:05,960 working, they're going to take that money and apply directly to the reduction of 196 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:09,679 our taxes, which of course they will not. So having assured us that 197 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:13,039 she's concerned about these things, she's promptly pivoted on the issue. We really 198 00:15:13,039 --> 00:15:18,120 care about climate change and the necessity of troubling the tax that we are paying 199 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:24,240 on our utilities in order to restart and barrel right through with our green initiatives 200 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:30,279 that will ensure equity in our underserved communities by converting their gas ranges to electrical 201 00:15:30,279 --> 00:15:31,799 heat. So, in other words, if you're worry about taxes, don't 202 00:15:31,879 --> 00:15:35,679 worry. We're actually looking at what we spend. Oh and by the way, 203 00:15:35,679 --> 00:15:37,080 we're going to tax you three times as much as this so we can 204 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:43,159 perform this nonsense that Minneapolis will reduce its carbon by point zero zero zero one 205 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:48,639 percent, which was equal to one day's output of China's latest new factory. 206 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,039 Oh, it's enough to keep you up at nights. But you know what, 207 00:15:50,159 --> 00:15:54,279 I don't keep up at nights worrying about these things. I sleep well. 208 00:15:54,399 --> 00:15:58,279 I sleep very well. One of the reasons I do is because a 209 00:15:58,279 --> 00:16:00,960 little secret I got I'm gonna tell you about. Do you know the poor 210 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:04,080 sleep can cause weight gain and mood issues and poor mental health and lower productivity 211 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,120 and all that other stuff. And sleeping less than six to seven hours per 212 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:11,080 night is linked to reduced white blood cell count. Not good. White blood 213 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:15,799 cells protect our body against illnesses and diseases, and they fight viruses and bacterias 214 00:16:15,799 --> 00:16:17,600 and more. You want them, you want lots of them. You want 215 00:16:17,639 --> 00:16:22,000 healthy ones. Right. Sleep is the foundation of our mental and physical health 216 00:16:22,039 --> 00:16:26,840 and performance in our days. So having a consistent nighttime routine that's non negotiable. 217 00:16:26,039 --> 00:16:33,159 And that's why we're proud to be introducing Beam Dream Beam. Now, 218 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:37,840 this dream contains an all powerful blend of things. Yet I'm sure revertive magnesium, 219 00:16:37,919 --> 00:16:41,200 melotonin and all the good stuff you might not have like race she and 220 00:16:41,799 --> 00:16:48,279 lthenine along with nanocdb combined. Though you know, if they know what they 221 00:16:48,279 --> 00:16:51,559 are, they'll help you fall asleep, They'll help you stay asleep and wake 222 00:16:51,679 --> 00:16:56,200 up refreshed. 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That's shopbeam 239 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:00,039 dot com slash ricochet and use the code ricochet for up forty percent off. 240 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:04,200 And we thank Beam re sponsoring this the Ricochet podcast, and trust me, 241 00:18:04,599 --> 00:18:12,599 it's delicious fantastic. Make sure I got the pronunciation correct. Rafael Manguel Mangul 242 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:17,279 Magul coming out of three two one and now we Welcome to the podcast. 243 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:21,519 Rafael Manguel a fellow at the Manhattan Institute, contributing editor to The Wonderful City 244 00:18:21,599 --> 00:18:25,079 Journal, and a member of the Council on Criminal Justice. He's the author 245 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:30,920 of Criminal in Justice. Welcome Raphael, much for having me back. Well, 246 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,599 this week we had these wonderful videos. Everybody got to eat of the 247 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:38,480 looting and the looting, and the looting and the looting in Philadelphia Apple luuuu 248 00:18:38,759 --> 00:18:42,279 lemon foot locker. It's only eighteen liquor stores in the rest of it. 249 00:18:44,839 --> 00:18:48,000 I remember, No, Well, that's because we aren't there, because of 250 00:18:48,039 --> 00:18:52,720 the deserts. I remember that happening here in Minneapolis in twenty twenty, and 251 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:56,160 it's terrifying. If it's anywhere close to your neighborhood, it's really terrifying. 252 00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:00,880 If it is your neighborhood, What can you tell us about this Mayhem night 253 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:07,480 phenomenon? And it's no doubt intrinsic connection to the injustice that the people had 254 00:19:07,559 --> 00:19:11,880 perceived. Yeah, well, you know the Mayhem phenomenons, these looting incidents, 255 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:15,640 these wilding episodes, they're they're not particularly new, but we do seem 256 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:21,079 to be seeing more of them, and we get a closer glimpse now with 257 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:22,559 social media, and one of the things that I think the public is finally 258 00:19:22,599 --> 00:19:27,279 starting to understand is that there's an element to these things that's just fun for 259 00:19:27,319 --> 00:19:32,160 the people who engage. The idea that we're all supposed to accept is that 260 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:36,759 this is a function of you know, deprivation and you know desperation. But 261 00:19:36,839 --> 00:19:38,920 if you watch these videos and you listen to the commentary, and you see 262 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,880 the smiling faces and hear the laughter, it's just a thrill for them, 263 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,640 right The idea that everybody got to eat as you you know, run into 264 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:48,920 a Nike store and run out with sweatsuits. I mean, I don't know 265 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,839 how you see in something like that, but you know, it's it's clearly 266 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,519 not about need, you know, and it is in fact connected, I 267 00:19:56,559 --> 00:20:00,480 think, to the broader direction that our criminal justice system has been taking throughout 268 00:20:00,519 --> 00:20:03,039 the country. I mean, over the last you know, ten to twenty 269 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:07,599 years, we have seen a pretty market shift and how we do criminal justice 270 00:20:07,599 --> 00:20:10,799 in this country and how we do policing, and that shift has been unidirectional. 271 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:15,960 Every single major policy initiative that's been enacted over the last decade has either 272 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:19,000 lowered the transaction costs of crime, or raise the transaction costs of enforcing the 273 00:20:19,079 --> 00:20:22,480 law, right, I mean, whether you're talking about more federal interventions in 274 00:20:22,519 --> 00:20:27,480 local policing, you know, things like consent decrees, you know, bans 275 00:20:27,519 --> 00:20:33,759 on certain kinds of grappling techniques, you know, a more unfunded paperwork compliance 276 00:20:33,759 --> 00:20:37,559 burdens, you know. And then on the criminal justice side, I mean 277 00:20:37,559 --> 00:20:41,759 you've got the Progressive prosecutor movement, which by the way, Philadelphia has perhaps 278 00:20:41,799 --> 00:20:45,480 ground zero four right where you have these elected officials who just say, well, 279 00:20:45,519 --> 00:20:48,440 we're not going to prosecute these whole categories of crime, or even the 280 00:20:48,559 --> 00:20:51,640 categories of crime where we're still going to prosecute. You know, your chances 281 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:55,119 of a jail sentence or a prison sentence are going to be reduced to near 282 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,960 zero. And you're going to see a huge spike in probation, huge spike 283 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:04,240 in diversions, spike in you know ACDs or germans on contemplation of dismissal, 284 00:21:04,279 --> 00:21:07,039 which is basically like, you know, if you don't get into any trouble 285 00:21:07,079 --> 00:21:11,359 for the next six months in your case will go away. You know, 286 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:15,759 all of this communicates something to people who in fact are paying attention and what 287 00:21:15,799 --> 00:21:18,319 that communicates. It said, Hey, there are no longer any real consequences. 288 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:21,519 So is it any surprise that we see this? I don't think so, 289 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,119 Hira File. I have a question about why this is happening. So 290 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:30,359 I often describe myself as a criminal justice squish, But what I mean by 291 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,559 that is not that I want to see this sort of behavior, even that 292 00:21:33,599 --> 00:21:38,400 I want short sentences or lenients. I just like the procedural elements. I 293 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:45,960 like trials, I like the exclusionary rule. I like a broad interpretation of 294 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:49,839 the Fifth Amendment, sixth Amendment, and so on. I don't understand why 295 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:56,480 it is that we have gone in this direction, especially given that there was 296 00:21:56,519 --> 00:22:03,079 this enormous crackdown on the crime of the nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties that worked, 297 00:22:03,599 --> 00:22:07,160 that we could see worked, and now we seem to be doing everything 298 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:12,359 in the other direction. So my question is is this the product of over 299 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:17,319 confidence? Did we think that we had fixed crime and therefore could afford to 300 00:22:17,759 --> 00:22:21,279 behave like this, or is there something else going on here? Is this 301 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:26,319 tied in, for example, to our obsession with identity politics and disparate impact. 302 00:22:26,799 --> 00:22:30,119 I think it's much more of the ladder. I think what we're seeing 303 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,839 is a deep sense of discomfort with that successful history with respect to the crime 304 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:38,880 decline. Yeah, a very few people who are sort of honest brokers, 305 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:44,200 but you know, certainly on the left of this issue will deny that the 306 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:49,480 uptake and incarceration and the reinvestments in policing throughout the nineteen eighties and nineties helped 307 00:22:49,519 --> 00:22:52,279 reduce crime. You know, they may argue about the degree to which that 308 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:57,000 was the case, but I think everyone who knows anything about this understands that 309 00:22:57,079 --> 00:23:00,920 those things really did help in a substantial way. But what we see is, 310 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:06,480 I think a level of just uneasiness with what that look like. Right. 311 00:23:06,519 --> 00:23:11,039 You see this sort of obsession with disparities in terms of arrests, in 312 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,839 terms of police use of force, in terms of incarceration. Right. We 313 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,559 often hear, for example, that a black man in the United States is 314 00:23:18,559 --> 00:23:22,599 five times more likely than a white man to be in prison. We often 315 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,279 hear that they're more likely to be arrested, that they're even for the same 316 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:29,200 kinds of offenses, et cetera. You know, and it really just I 317 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:30,839 think miss is the forest for the trees. I mean, the kind of 318 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:36,319 overall case for the sort of decarceration and de policing that we've been seeing has 319 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:41,279 three parts, right, They're kind of three fundamental claims that undergird a lot 320 00:23:41,279 --> 00:23:44,039 of the reform efforts that I was just describing early. The one is that 321 00:23:44,079 --> 00:23:47,880 we have this kind of mass incarceration problem. We constantly hear these sort of 322 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,880 unfavorable international comparisons, Right, I think uss five percent of the world's population 323 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,279 twenty five percent of its prisoners. This is patently unjust. We're supposed to 324 00:23:55,279 --> 00:23:59,000 take this as prima facia evidence, you know, that we incarceerate for more 325 00:23:59,039 --> 00:24:02,160 than we should. And a lot of the way that people make that case 326 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:06,640 is by comparing us to other Western European democracies, not controlling for the fact 327 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:11,559 that we have in this country, unfortunately many many more pockets of serious crime. 328 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,200 Uh where you know it's crime that it's going to land you in prison 329 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,920 for a long time pretty much anywhere in the world that you commit it. 330 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,279 It's it's not necessarily that we're a more punitive society. And one of the 331 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:22,799 things I'd like to point out to people, and you should know this, 332 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,720 Charles, is that in the UK, the mandatory minimum sentence for illegal firearm 333 00:24:26,759 --> 00:24:30,759 possession is five years in prison. You have to serve three and a half 334 00:24:30,839 --> 00:24:33,119 years. There's a sort of truth and sentencing component here in the United States. 335 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:37,160 That's a that's an offense that's regularly met with probation. I mean, 336 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:41,599 you see people on the street all the time that have you know, bettergular 337 00:24:41,599 --> 00:24:45,200 inprobation or parole for for firearms offenses where you know, we're lucky if they 338 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,319 served sixty days, you know. So it's not that we're more punitive, 339 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,559 and it's not that we over incarce rate. I mean, you know, 340 00:24:51,559 --> 00:24:52,960 one of the questions that I'd like to ask people, I think that the 341 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,880 true test of whether we have an over incarceration problem is to ask can we 342 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:02,200 safely decarceorate to the leve that we would need to achieve parity with the other 343 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:04,960 democracies that were unfavorably compared to To do that, we'd have to release about 344 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,799 seventy percent of the people in stay prisons. Well, poo's in stay prison. 345 00:25:08,799 --> 00:25:12,160 I mean, you know, somewhere around two thirds of the prison population 346 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,640 in this country at the state level, which is where about nine out of 347 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:21,000 every ten prisoners are held are there primarily for a violent or weapons related felony, 348 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,400 and that's just the that can't be. I've been let to believe that 349 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,960 seventy percent of them are all extras from the wire who were spot holding a 350 00:25:27,039 --> 00:25:30,640 small bag of drugs. That's exactly right. I mean, this is the 351 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:36,160 lie that was sold to the US and so many people bought it hook line 352 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,920 and sinker, and it really is frustrated because it's very easily debunkable. You 353 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,400 can go into the data, you can go into the statistics, and what 354 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:45,160 they tell you again is that the vast majority of people in prison today are 355 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,640 there primarily for violent or weapons related offenses. Even the ones that are there 356 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,680 primarily for a drug offense or some other kind of non violent property offense, 357 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:57,160 they all have extensive criminal histories, which often include violence, which explain why 358 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,880 they're in prison for those non violent convictions. If you look at the typical 359 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,799 criminal history of someone in a state prison in the United States today, you're 360 00:26:03,839 --> 00:26:07,839 going to find someone between ten and twelve prior arrests in five and six prior 361 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:14,079 convictions. That does not comport with the story that we've all been told. 362 00:26:14,079 --> 00:26:17,880 This idea that we systematically deny second chances in the years we have second chance 363 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:22,480 month in this country, right, that is the story. And so when 364 00:26:22,519 --> 00:26:26,680 I ask peoples go through the prison population and tell me who's been denied a 365 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,640 second chance, most of these people have been given multiple bite at the apple, 366 00:26:30,279 --> 00:26:33,039 and every time we give them a bite at the apple, we're essentially 367 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,640 rolling the dice. And we're rolling the dice with the lives of the people 368 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:38,519 who live in the places where these individuals are going to spend their time when 369 00:26:38,519 --> 00:26:44,039 they're not incarcerated, and that is in a very small pocket of this country, 370 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,960 right, The vast majority of crime is very, very hyper concentrated, 371 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,240 which kind of takes me to the second plank, or the kind of the 372 00:26:52,279 --> 00:26:53,759 last plank of this three part argument. The second part is that you know, 373 00:26:53,799 --> 00:26:57,440 we have this mass incarceration problem, but also this police violence problem, 374 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,319 which you know, I think is drastically overstated. You know, yes, 375 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,759 do our police imperfect, Yes, do they act maliciously, of course, 376 00:27:03,799 --> 00:27:07,319 But when you contextualize our use of force numbers in the context of the fact 377 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,039 that we have somewhere around six hundred thousand officers making ten million plus arrest a 378 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:15,720 year, a thousand deaths, the vast majority of which involve armed suspects who 379 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:22,200 are violently resisting. Is not particularly surprising or egregious, right It doesn't reveal, 380 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,319 you know, some out of control police force of trigger happy monsters. 381 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:30,480 But the really the third plank is what I think has given this movement the 382 00:27:30,559 --> 00:27:33,480 momentum that it still enjoys today despite the crime spike, and that is that 383 00:27:33,519 --> 00:27:38,680 both the mass incarceration and police violence problems fall disproportionately on the shoulders of low 384 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:44,119 income minority communities. And that's true to an extent because you do see these 385 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:48,160 disparities in enforcement. What I try to get people to understand is that those 386 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,920 disparities have to be viewed in their proper context. You can't just look at 387 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,960 the enforcement side of the ledger. There is another side that you know, 388 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,960 Enforcement is not the only output of the criminal justice system, even though that's 389 00:28:00,079 --> 00:28:03,240 what we all pay attention to, right is, as Charles kind of alluded 390 00:28:03,279 --> 00:28:06,960 to earlier, there were crime declines that were attributable to the build up of 391 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:11,759 policing and incarceration. We now know who benefited from those crime declines, and 392 00:28:11,839 --> 00:28:14,440 we know who will benefit from the crime declines of the future, because we 393 00:28:14,519 --> 00:28:19,359 know how crime concentrates, and it concentrates primarily in precisely the areas that the 394 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,359 reformers say that they want to help. Right, So, in New York 395 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,920 City, every single year, like clockwork, a minimum of ninety five percent 396 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,599 of shooting victims are either black or Hispanic, almost all of them are male. 397 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,519 If that kind of disparity existed in any other aspect of American life, 398 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,640 I mean, there would be marches in the street. I mean, imagine 399 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,480 if ninety five percent of COVID deaths were black and Hispanic males. I mean, 400 00:28:41,559 --> 00:28:45,200 imagine what the policy response to that would have been. And yet there's 401 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,279 essentially silence when it comes to it. And what I want people to understand 402 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,319 is that, you know, there is an incongruity between the argument that we're 403 00:28:52,319 --> 00:28:56,200 all supposed to buy, right, this idea that the criminal justice system is 404 00:28:56,279 --> 00:29:02,559 racist because it disproportionately arrests in prisons and uses for against black and brown men 405 00:29:02,799 --> 00:29:07,799 for the most part, that there's an incongruty between that and the reality that 406 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,000 when the criminal justice system achieves its state and ends, which is keeping crime 407 00:29:11,079 --> 00:29:15,759 under control, it disproportionately benefits those very same communities, and so you're forced 408 00:29:15,799 --> 00:29:21,160 to answer this weird question, which is like, why would this system that 409 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,119 we're supposed to believe is designed and operated, you know, to oppress these 410 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:29,519 communities so disproportionately benefit those varied communities, right, right? I mean, 411 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,720 the truly racist cop just doesn't care. Right, They throw their hands up 412 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,640 and they say, let them kill each other. The person that's proactive, 413 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,759 right, that chases the arms suspect through the dark galley, they're the ones 414 00:29:41,799 --> 00:29:45,559 that are actually the anti racist actors in this situation. They're the ones subordinating 415 00:29:45,599 --> 00:29:48,880 their safety in order to make an arrest that is not going to benefit the 416 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,720 vast majority of white America. You used a candy term there. We're gonna 417 00:29:52,759 --> 00:29:56,960 have to ring a bell five point to merit there. I have ninety seven 418 00:29:57,039 --> 00:30:00,960 questions and adenda, but John wants to say something, so all for me, 419 00:30:00,319 --> 00:30:04,519 I want to say, Well, John strokes his Wilfred Brimley like beard, 420 00:30:04,759 --> 00:30:07,960 and actually it's more of a captain. It's more of a captain Smith 421 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,640 of the Titanic thing. I think, oh, thank you, thank you. 422 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,079 That bodes well for my near future. This John Gabriel Raphael, and 423 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:21,160 thanks again for being on. One thing that seems ineffective to fix this, 424 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:25,240 at least from a political angle, is you see the GOP debate the other 425 00:30:25,359 --> 00:30:30,000 night, and you will hear ProForma we got to back the guys in blue, 426 00:30:30,559 --> 00:30:33,920 but it seems like the message coming from them isn't going to be as 427 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:41,279 effective as people going on strike in Oakland, voters turning out the district attorney 428 00:30:41,319 --> 00:30:45,720 there because he was so soft on crime. Are we seeing more and more 429 00:30:45,799 --> 00:30:51,599 community activists in these locations that are suffering from this nonsense? Like you say, 430 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:59,359 people complain about over incarceration and ethnic disparities in those institutions, but those 431 00:30:59,359 --> 00:31:03,960 are the victims to those other disparities exist in victims. It's obviously going to 432 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,319 be an issue of the people who are most vulnerable or the most likely to 433 00:31:07,359 --> 00:31:14,200 be harmed in these situations. What are you seeing in cities with just communities 434 00:31:14,359 --> 00:31:19,960 everyday folks rising up and saying this is insane, I've had enough because Fokland 435 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:26,759 and San Francisco are hardly hardcore right wing nut job electorates there. Yeah, 436 00:31:26,799 --> 00:31:30,480 no, that's exactly right. I do think would happen with the DA in 437 00:31:30,519 --> 00:31:34,000 San Francisco was somewhat anomalous. And here's why. For the most part, 438 00:31:34,519 --> 00:31:37,720 violence, which is really what a lot of people are particularly worried about when 439 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,319 they talk about the crime spike, is very, very hyper concentrated geographically. 440 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,519 The vast majority of Americans just you know, they can go about their daily 441 00:31:45,559 --> 00:31:49,279 lives without really having to come into contact with criminal violence. I mean, 442 00:31:49,359 --> 00:31:52,200 you know, just by way of illustration, here in New York City, 443 00:31:52,279 --> 00:31:56,319 every single year since at least twenty ten, somewhere around three and a half 444 00:31:56,319 --> 00:32:00,240 percent of our street segments, which would be kind of corner to corner two 445 00:32:00,279 --> 00:32:04,240 sidewalks, see about fifty percent of all the violent crime. One percent of 446 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,279 the street segmentcy about twenty five percent of all the violent crime. So you 447 00:32:07,279 --> 00:32:08,440 know, if you're living on the Upper West Side or you know, Upper 448 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:13,279 East Side, chances are you can kind of avoid that for the most part. 449 00:32:13,359 --> 00:32:16,960 What happened in San Francisco, though, was the disorder problem was so 450 00:32:17,119 --> 00:32:22,079 widespread that it was at the doorsteps of the politically active and well to do 451 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,759 the people who actually helped drive outcomes. And that's not something that I think 452 00:32:24,759 --> 00:32:30,559 you're going to see replicated in every city across America. Although that's certainly not, 453 00:32:30,599 --> 00:32:35,039 despite the best efforts of a lot of jurisdictions like Philadelphia, DC, 454 00:32:35,359 --> 00:32:37,440 New York, you know, in terms of the policies that they're enacting to 455 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:42,000 try and get there. So I do think that, you know, what 456 00:32:42,039 --> 00:32:46,279 we saw with Chessi Budine getting ousted is probably not going to happen very much 457 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:50,559 or very often. And I think part of that is because for the most 458 00:32:50,599 --> 00:32:53,880 part, these DA races are are still pretty low Salien selections often held in 459 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:59,799 off year contests, and they are still characterized by very low turnout. I 460 00:32:59,839 --> 00:33:04,839 mean, Larry Krasner won reelection despite presiding over a massive violent crime spike and 461 00:33:05,119 --> 00:33:07,519 something like, you know, seventeen to twenty percent of eligible voters turned out 462 00:33:07,519 --> 00:33:12,920 in that Democratic primary. So I do think that we're still a ways away 463 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,519 from kind of seeing the sort of wave that we would need to see to 464 00:33:15,559 --> 00:33:20,079 really get this thing under control. But I do think that, you know, 465 00:33:20,079 --> 00:33:22,079 one of the benefits of social media is that the voices in the community 466 00:33:22,119 --> 00:33:25,799 that have always been there by the way are finally starting to get heard, 467 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,640 and they're becoming more aggressive, and they're they're making use of these tools at 468 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,920 their disposal with more regularity, and I think some of the movement that we're 469 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:38,240 seeing in places like Oakland is very encouraging. We just need more of it, 470 00:33:38,279 --> 00:33:42,839 and we need I think the broader public to kind of have the courage 471 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,160 to have the tough conversations that are ultimately going to find their way to the 472 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:49,680 waste question. Yeah, it's very similar effect, I believe, to school 473 00:33:49,799 --> 00:33:54,000 choice where hands were forced. Let's say, whether it's DC Milwaukee here in 474 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:59,319 my state of Arizona, the most powerful advocates for these things. So the 475 00:33:59,319 --> 00:34:02,440 people were saying, our public schools are really suffering, and I'm glad you 476 00:34:02,519 --> 00:34:07,799 have the nice Tony suburb that you're in and you can contribute to the booster 477 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,519 club and the kids can have, you know, the finest stadium they want 478 00:34:10,559 --> 00:34:15,039 every five years. But yeah, hopefully the people will speak up about this 479 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:22,719 or you get El Salvador, I mean, do you offil sometimes wonder whether 480 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:24,320 or not. I mean, I think this is too big a country for 481 00:34:24,519 --> 00:34:29,159 that solution. That a lot of people look to El Salvador, which was 482 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:35,519 run by criminals, and say, bully for that guy. He comes to 483 00:34:35,559 --> 00:34:38,119 the president and decides to get crack down and does it just hoovers everybody off 484 00:34:38,119 --> 00:34:40,800 the streets and puts them into awful jails. And now that at the point 485 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,920 where people are saying, you know, this is a little bit too far, 486 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:45,360 because you can drop a dime on anybody and get them taken off the 487 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:49,119 street, and people are settling scores that way. But on the other hand, 488 00:34:49,679 --> 00:34:52,559 people seem to be relieved that they no longer have to cower in their 489 00:34:52,559 --> 00:34:57,199 houses and that they can actually sleep outdoors in a hammock without having to worry 490 00:34:57,199 --> 00:35:00,079 about the fire gunfire. And like I said, America is too big a 491 00:35:00,119 --> 00:35:04,760 country for this to happen. And I think but on a local level, 492 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,000 you think, well, it's either going to be the state crack the government 493 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:13,599 cracks down, which seems unlikely because they are intellectually and ideologically predicated on a 494 00:35:13,599 --> 00:35:15,639 whole series of assumptions that say, we can't do that because it's wrong, 495 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,840 or the citizens are going to do something about it, which is what people 496 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,079 are always going to say. Oh, look at this TikTok video, Look 497 00:35:22,119 --> 00:35:24,079 at this YouTube thing here I found where somebody stepped up and stopped the shoplift, 498 00:35:24,159 --> 00:35:27,559 or the tide is turning, But it isn't really it's not enough of 499 00:35:27,559 --> 00:35:30,039 it, and there's not enough people to do that, so we are all 500 00:35:30,119 --> 00:35:34,079 then either on our own and or reliant on government. I mean, which 501 00:35:34,119 --> 00:35:36,480 way do you see eventually that this is going to shake out? Do you 502 00:35:36,559 --> 00:35:38,679 fear that there's going to put it this way? Do you fear let me 503 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:42,679 actually come up with the questions. You're just rambling my gums with a statement. 504 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:49,039 Do you fear vigilanteism? You know, Charles Bronson style nineteen seventies, 505 00:35:49,079 --> 00:35:51,920 Bernie gets the rest of it having a resurgence, and if it did, 506 00:35:52,679 --> 00:35:55,119 what do you think the reaction to that would be. It's a fear of 507 00:35:55,159 --> 00:35:59,199 mind, for sure. I don't think it's particularly likely. It's one of 508 00:35:59,199 --> 00:36:02,360 the reasons why I like the idea of having a government that is tasked with 509 00:36:02,599 --> 00:36:07,559 providing for public order, because the alternative is that there will always be policing. 510 00:36:07,639 --> 00:36:08,760 Right the questions who's going to do it and how well are they going 511 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,960 to do it? I don't want to live in the world in which you 512 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,159 know, uh, the kind of situation you saw what Bernie gets becomes an 513 00:36:16,159 --> 00:36:20,199 everyday occurrence. I don't want to live in a world in which you know 514 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,760 every clerk decides to take a baseball back to everyone who gives them a funny 515 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:27,199 look, uh, you know, in a seven to eleven. Despite how 516 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,760 you know good, some of those videos may have made people feel, you 517 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:32,800 know, when when they when they feel like thieves are are getting their way, 518 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,400 are getting what they deserve. So I just don't think we're going to 519 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,679 get there, nor do I think we're going to go the El Salvador route, 520 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,960 right in part because we have a constitution in this country, we have 521 00:36:43,079 --> 00:36:47,039 laws, we have u procedural protections which I value, you know, as 522 00:36:47,079 --> 00:36:52,000 just Charles and as I think everyone else you know on this, and you 523 00:36:52,039 --> 00:36:55,880 know that the question becomes is can we learn something from El Salvador? And 524 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,199 I think we can, and that is that, you know, we're relearning 525 00:36:59,199 --> 00:37:02,960 the lesson of incapacitation. Right when you take criminal actors off the street, 526 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:09,000 they are incapacitated from victimizing society. They cannot do harm outside of those walls. 527 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:13,400 That was the lesson of the nineteen nineties that we seem to have forgotten, 528 00:37:14,119 --> 00:37:20,840 and that's always going to be the primary benefit of responding to crime incarceration. 529 00:37:21,599 --> 00:37:23,079 The good news for us is that we don't have to do what El 530 00:37:23,159 --> 00:37:28,360 Salvador has done. We don't have to be dragnet and sweeping with how our 531 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,800 response on this. We have the ability in this country to use data to 532 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:38,960 pinpoint our enforcement resources to identify the relatively tiny share of our population that's responsible 533 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:43,639 for the most serious crimes and the biggest chunk of those crimes. I mean, 534 00:37:43,679 --> 00:37:45,199 you know, the problem. Analyzes that have been done on things like 535 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:51,360 homicide and gun violence consistently show that somewhere around zero point one to zero point 536 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,360 five percent of a city's population is responsible for more than half of the gun 537 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:59,679 violence in those places. Right, it's not as difficult as we might think 538 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,239 it is is to identify who those people are. Right, They tend to 539 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:07,119 have significant criminal histories, They tend to be involved in gangs. When we 540 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:13,239 come into contact with these individuals through criminal enforcement, it's really just on us, 541 00:38:13,559 --> 00:38:16,320 through the system to hold them accountable and actually incapacitate them for a meaningful 542 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,920 period of time, which is one of the reasons why. You know, 543 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,400 one thing that I do think is a possibility is you know, a kind 544 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:27,559 of resurgence of these habitual offender sentencing enhancements, things like you know, modified 545 00:38:27,639 --> 00:38:30,639 versions of three strikes where it's like we're going to draw a line in the 546 00:38:30,639 --> 00:38:34,159 sand with respect to repeated criminal offend and we're going to say beyond this point, 547 00:38:34,199 --> 00:38:37,719 no more. Right, we did it once it contributed, we can 548 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:39,599 do it again. We can do it in a way that's responsive to the 549 00:38:39,599 --> 00:38:45,360 critiques of those earlier initiatives, right where you can kind of build in incentives 550 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,280 to desist from from crime. So you know, maybe if you go five 551 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,719 years without a new arrest, you know, you lose a point towards your 552 00:38:53,039 --> 00:38:59,119 ultimate strike count or something like that. We can be more intelligent and civil 553 00:38:59,159 --> 00:39:01,199 about how we do this. But the further this problem goes down the road, 554 00:39:01,559 --> 00:39:06,719 the less sophisticated the response I think is going to be, and it's 555 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:08,039 going to become more of a backlash. That's what I don't want to see. 556 00:39:08,079 --> 00:39:12,119 I think the hope is that every time the pendulum kind of swings past 557 00:39:12,159 --> 00:39:15,400 the point of equilibrium, it doesn't have to go as far as it did 558 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,280 the last time before it starts coming back. And I think we're still at 559 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,239 a point where we can reapply the lessons that we learned early enough that we 560 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:25,400 don't have to let things deteriorate to the point that they were in the nineteen 561 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,960 eighties and nineties. Nor do we have to be as draconian as we were 562 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:34,159 in the two thousands. I know what Charles wants to get in here, 563 00:39:34,159 --> 00:39:37,039 but I want to say one thing, and I think that in many senses, 564 00:39:37,079 --> 00:39:38,639 it is worse than it was in the eighties and the nineties. You 565 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:42,079 had a lot of street level crime in the eighties and nineties. We all 566 00:39:42,079 --> 00:39:45,000 remember what New York was like. We all remember the taxi driver era, 567 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:49,400 we all remember the bad subway got it Well we have today, however, 568 00:39:49,639 --> 00:39:54,000 thanks to the lenient prosecutors and the legislatures saying that, well, you know, 569 00:39:54,119 --> 00:39:59,400 stealing nine ninety nine bucks from something isn't really shoplifting. Stealing it's not 570 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:01,119 that important. You steal a thousand dollars, we're gonna come down and you're 571 00:40:01,159 --> 00:40:05,840 like a bag of hammers. Maybe okay, like maybe a bag of Posta 572 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,719 or something. But you can steal up the ninety nine bucks and we're good. 573 00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:15,760 Consequently, you have a combination of organized crime link rings that go into 574 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:21,519 Walgreens and Cbs and Duane Reads and just put everything in trash bags. And 575 00:40:21,599 --> 00:40:23,760 you also have individuals who say, you know, there's no consequences for me 576 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,119 this, Why would I want to be a fool and pay for it and 577 00:40:27,159 --> 00:40:30,639 just walk in and take stuff and walk out again. This level of complete 578 00:40:30,679 --> 00:40:37,519 and utter breakdown of the compact between the store and the clients is new. 579 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:46,320 We haven't seen this kind of mass, casual unaddressed theft ever. I don't 580 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:50,039 think am I wrong? This is this is the new wrinkle, and this 581 00:40:50,079 --> 00:40:52,960 is one of the things that astonishes people about the new form that urban decay 582 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,679 has taken. This is something that we didn't have to deal with in the 583 00:40:55,679 --> 00:41:00,199 eighties and the nineties. I was there. Well, I think a lot 584 00:41:00,199 --> 00:41:01,880 of it has to do with what the expected responses. In the eighties and 585 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:06,079 nineties. The expectation was that if you were caught even stealing, you were 586 00:41:06,119 --> 00:41:09,199 going to be penalized in the serious way. That has changed, and so 587 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:13,679 I do think we're starting to really get a clearer picture of just how thin 588 00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:16,239 the line is between order and disorder, and that line has gotten thinner because 589 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:22,719 the sort of frontline keepers of order, the police, are just absolutely decimated 590 00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:27,320 in terms of numbers. I mean, one of the least appreciated phenomenon that 591 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,599 we're seeing that has characterized the last really ten years almost is the recruitment of 592 00:41:30,639 --> 00:41:36,440 attention crisis that is hitting big city departments across the country, where departments cannot 593 00:41:36,519 --> 00:41:39,119 recruit enough officers. That I mean, where they are budgeted for more slots 594 00:41:39,119 --> 00:41:44,039 than they have filled, right that people are retiring at significantly higher rates. 595 00:41:44,039 --> 00:41:47,320 They're resigning at higher rates. They're leaving big city departments for their suburban counterparts, 596 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:51,320 where the perception is is that hey, I'll get paid just as well, 597 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,639 if not better, and my chances of being involved in a viral incident 598 00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:58,639 significantly lower because it's a very quaint and quiet place with almost new crime. 599 00:42:00,159 --> 00:42:04,239 Then five years down the road, the only guys got applying are the drugs 600 00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:07,920 from clock were goring exactly, which you know. So over time, which 601 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:09,960 you end up seeing is that the sort of delta between the meeting and cop 602 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:13,639 and the meeting and PERP starts to shrink. That's not a world I want 603 00:42:13,679 --> 00:42:15,960 to live in either, But that's the world that we're going to get if 604 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:21,360 we continue to demonize the profession and disincentivize good people from taking that job. 605 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:23,679 I mean, it's going to become the kind of the kind of career path 606 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:28,440 where only people without options take it, and it reverts back to what it 607 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:30,840 was in the nineteen sixties and seventies, which just just you know, a 608 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,239 blue collar city job to take up your time. It wasn't really the kind 609 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,599 of profession where motivated people were doing it because they really truly cared. And 610 00:42:37,599 --> 00:42:40,880 then we're willing to jump through hoops to do it. Even the departments that 611 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:44,920 are able to kind of backfill these positions at a rate of one hundred percent, 612 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:49,320 you gotta remember they're backfilling with officers that have almost no experience. So 613 00:42:49,559 --> 00:42:52,199 there's a brain drain issue, right. You're losing people with connections on the 614 00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:58,079 street, you're losing people with knowledge, with investigatory experience, and you're replacing 615 00:42:58,119 --> 00:43:00,320 them with rookies who still have a lot to learn, and or are people 616 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:04,880 who benefited from the lowering of standards that were irrelicant the fact that you know, 617 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,400 these departments were having trouble recruiting in the first place, so you know, 618 00:43:08,199 --> 00:43:12,880 ironically, what the reformers are going to get is actually more of the 619 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,679 thing that they don't like, which you know, if I were more cynical 620 00:43:15,679 --> 00:43:19,199 than I am. You know, I might suggest that that's by design, 621 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,880 right, the idea being that you want to sort of starve the system you 622 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:23,880 don't like of the resources that it needs to be effective, so that you 623 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:29,480 can point to the ineffectiveness as reason to dismantle it. Further, I have 624 00:43:29,519 --> 00:43:35,599 a final question, what are the time scales here? Two years ago, 625 00:43:35,679 --> 00:43:38,840 in a different arena, economics, I was essentially down on my knees begging 626 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:46,800 the President and the Congress not to spend more money, because I know from 627 00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:53,199 having read some history that once you start inflation it is really hard to stop. 628 00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:58,079 And the response, of course, was, look, don't worry about 629 00:43:58,119 --> 00:44:00,960 it. We haven't had inflation for a long time, we have cheap money, 630 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:05,719 interest rates, alow, it's going to be fine. And now we're 631 00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:13,199 not in a fine place. And I think underpinning some of the denial you 632 00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:17,480 see in the press and that the apathy you see in the public is this 633 00:44:17,679 --> 00:44:22,440 sense that well, if it gets bad, we'll just find better prosecutors and 634 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:24,559 we'll just change the laws and we'll go back to what we're doing and all 635 00:44:24,599 --> 00:44:28,960 this will go away. Is that true? Or does this take a long 636 00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:31,719 time to fix? It's going to take a lot longer to fix than it 637 00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:35,519 takes a destroy. I mean the analogy I like to use here it is 638 00:44:35,519 --> 00:44:37,920 like getting into shape, right. I mean, you know you can work 639 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:43,000 out every day, eat well, and it maybe you get the body that 640 00:44:43,039 --> 00:44:45,559 you want in a year, and you have to maintain that effort. You 641 00:44:45,599 --> 00:44:50,639 know, if you want to keep that body indefinitely. Two three months into 642 00:44:50,639 --> 00:44:52,960 a pandemic where you donut sitting in the house, the gym's closed, you 643 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,639 know, there goes your six pack, right, I mean you can undo 644 00:44:55,679 --> 00:44:59,920 that progress a lot quicker than you can build it, right. I mean, 645 00:45:00,039 --> 00:45:02,079 you know, the Twin Towers came down in a few hours, it 646 00:45:02,599 --> 00:45:07,440 took years to build. Right. That That I think is a rule that 647 00:45:07,599 --> 00:45:10,119 holds across context, and I don't think the criminal justiceystem is any different. 648 00:45:10,199 --> 00:45:14,960 So yeah, if the idea is that we can continue to experiment and continue 649 00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:17,079 down this road, and if things truly truly get bad, we can always 650 00:45:17,079 --> 00:45:21,760 just reverse course and it'll be fine. No, you know there's going to 651 00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:25,639 be a lag between the policy response and the benefits that it produces. You 652 00:45:25,639 --> 00:45:30,039 know, these things are not immediate, just as there was a lag I 653 00:45:30,079 --> 00:45:34,239 think between the policy shifts that got us to this place and the sort of 654 00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,400 you know situation that we have now with crime. I mean lots of people 655 00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:39,559 pointed to New York City for years saying well, look, stops and frists 656 00:45:39,559 --> 00:45:44,239 are down x percent, and arrests are down x percent and incarceration is down 657 00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:45,840 x percent and the sky has fallen. It's like, well, give it 658 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:49,599 a minute, right, I mean, Momentum is a thing. Inertia is 659 00:45:49,639 --> 00:45:53,480 a thing, and it exists in various ways, and so sometimes it's going 660 00:45:53,519 --> 00:45:59,519 to take time. And that's why I think you need sophisticated people who are 661 00:45:59,559 --> 00:46:04,599 imposition of decision making power that are not going to succumb to the narrative of 662 00:46:04,599 --> 00:46:08,519 the day, because that kind of fast response to you know, you know, 663 00:46:08,599 --> 00:46:12,760 kind of sticking your finger in the wind and seeing which way it's blowing 664 00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:15,599 is that's that's not how you should do policy, because the reality is is 665 00:46:15,639 --> 00:46:21,360 that you know, the decisions you make today may have consequences years down the 666 00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,840 road. Wait a minute, you're advocating for politicians to take the long term 667 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:30,920 approach to force swear short term sugar games and think about what works best for 668 00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:34,559 the society in a structural, long term fashion and work towards that. That's 669 00:46:34,599 --> 00:46:37,480 what you're asked, that's what you're asking about politicians today. Well you can 670 00:46:37,519 --> 00:46:40,960 find more of that pie in the sky, castles in the air, idealism, 671 00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:44,480 a City Journal, and in rafael book as well. He'd right, 672 00:46:44,639 --> 00:46:47,000 He's right, you know, and shucks, we didn't even get to the 673 00:46:47,039 --> 00:46:52,159 myth of non violent crime, which means we'll have to have you on again, 674 00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:53,800 and we hope this time we'll have you on again after there hasn't been 675 00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:57,199 some big crime thing that we need to talk about, but just to talk 676 00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:00,679 discursively and at length about the idea, or you folk listening could just go 677 00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:04,159 find the work yourself and read it and be smarter for it. Rafael, 678 00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:07,039 thanks so much for joining us today. It's been a pleasure. Thank you 679 00:47:07,079 --> 00:47:10,360 all appreciate it. Thanks Rafael. And we have to remember that we're up 680 00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:17,599 against the people who who have the Fox Butterworth approach. You'll remember the Fox 681 00:47:17,679 --> 00:47:21,920 Butterworth approach. Fox Butterworth wrote a famous piece in the New York Times which 682 00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:28,519 I believed had the headlines crime is done, prisons are full, yet crime 683 00:47:28,599 --> 00:47:32,960 is down, or perhaps the other way around, saying you don't how does 684 00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:37,199 this We don't have so much crime anymore, but yet our prisons are absolutely 685 00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:39,760 full. What's What's what strange thing is going on here is if you couldn't 686 00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:44,760 see the connection between the two of them. Yes, indeed, but what 687 00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:46,519 are you going to do? I mean, there are people you hate this. 688 00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,880 I'm not one of those who say, you know what, it's all 689 00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:54,679 it's all Cloward Piven, it's all w ef it's all intentional, it's all 690 00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:59,079 a plot to bring things down. Because that presupposes that these people at these 691 00:47:59,159 --> 00:48:04,719 levels of government are smart and I don't particular anything it's smart and capable and 692 00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:06,880 all powerful. And I don't think that's the case at all. I think 693 00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:10,000 they're guided by lazy, unexamined sort of ideology that just lets them wave away 694 00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:15,039 things and feel good about themselves and know that political gains will be will be 695 00:48:15,119 --> 00:48:23,800 had. But you have to wonder though the idea somehow that well, John, 696 00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:28,000 for example, you were going to ask him another question before we left, 697 00:48:28,039 --> 00:48:30,440 while I like my thoughts, and that was going to be what because 698 00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:31,880 I know you had another one, why don't you ask us? And then 699 00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:36,920 we'll pretend that we know what we're talking about. Yeah, I just think 700 00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:42,719 it's it's kind of been touched on a little bit before, but the entire 701 00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:46,599 problem of what I'm concerned about. Yes, we have this crime going on 702 00:48:46,679 --> 00:48:51,719 now, but more and more you're seeing people fight back on their own. 703 00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:53,480 Look, if no one else is going to stop this, I will. 704 00:48:54,719 --> 00:49:00,840 I live in an open carry state, there is no need for any kind 705 00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:06,760 of restrictions on carrying. Thankfully, the vast majority at least of owners here 706 00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:10,360 and those who carry very responsible, very well trained. It's kind of a 707 00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:16,320 cultural thing with Arizona. It's always been very open in arms policy. However, 708 00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:20,480 what I'm concerned about is people are just going to take into their own 709 00:49:20,519 --> 00:49:23,519 hands, and the people trying to stop the crime will be killed or harmed, 710 00:49:24,159 --> 00:49:31,679 or bystanders will be Someone will eventually enforce the basic common sense rules here, 711 00:49:32,039 --> 00:49:36,159 and if police don't do it, someone else will. And frankly, 712 00:49:36,199 --> 00:49:43,519 I'd rather have a highly trained police force intervening in these things than some guy 713 00:49:43,639 --> 00:49:47,199 like me. It's not like somebody's going to run in and shoot. It's 714 00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:51,280 like, oh wait a minute, I was in the Marines. Yes I'm 715 00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:54,920 seventy now, but I'm going to stop this rapscallion right here. A lot 716 00:49:54,960 --> 00:50:00,480 of people are going to get hurt because this cannot continue and people have kind 717 00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:04,599 of had enough. And that's kind of my concern is that, you know, 718 00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:08,239 they're always after a fact, there's always unintended consequences. And we mentioned 719 00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:13,719 the Bernie gets but a lot of it too is just a grouchy old man. 720 00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:19,159 And admittedly I am one jumping in to stop a bad situation and more 721 00:50:19,199 --> 00:50:21,719 people getting hurt. Yeah, Charles, do you think I mean this is 722 00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:25,920 what I think about two. I mean, there's there's just the extraordinary quantity 723 00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:32,119 of FAO f a fo tweets on x or x's on tweets on Twitter, 724 00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:37,920 people who just love to play all the clips of the craw of the crook 725 00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:42,639 getting what's what's due to him. Half of them are Brazilian off duty policeman 726 00:50:42,639 --> 00:50:45,599 who are shooting all over the place, and they always seem to be off 727 00:50:45,679 --> 00:50:50,599 duty Brazilian policeman. But when you look at this and you see, okay, 728 00:50:50,599 --> 00:50:53,840 it's great that somebody defended that guy defended, you know, intervened, 729 00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:59,920 that the guy with the big cowboy had the sunglasses did shoot the Robert's great 730 00:51:00,199 --> 00:51:05,000 that that person did actually use a firearm, correctly, it still is not 731 00:51:05,079 --> 00:51:08,880 a society that is well, it's a society in the in the process of 732 00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:13,119 dissolution. I mean, because a you don't want those people who are going 733 00:51:13,159 --> 00:51:15,639 to be doing those things out there. You want them to be put away. 734 00:51:15,679 --> 00:51:19,800 You want you want to have them dissuaded from doing things because they know 735 00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:24,719 that process that capture and prosecution is nearby certain and incarceration. It's not a 736 00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:27,760 good sign. I mean, occasionally, yeah, you like to see the 737 00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:31,400 good guy with a gun save somebody, but it's not. It's dozens and 738 00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:36,519 dozens and dozens of videos flowing through your little glowing electronic device every day telling 739 00:51:36,559 --> 00:51:40,559 you of the citizens doing things that it does not speak well for a society 740 00:51:42,039 --> 00:51:45,280 and its strengths, and the reason go on, yes and no, yes 741 00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:49,840 and no. Well that's a kind of nuanced, sort of wishy washy approach 742 00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:52,400 that I would It's all right, so yes and no, I mean, 743 00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:57,519 go on, go on. Well, I think that the response that you're 744 00:51:57,599 --> 00:52:06,320 describing, the FAFO response, the sharing of videos, it's actually a sign 745 00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:09,800 of health in much the same way it doesn't bother me. I'm not I'm 746 00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:14,679 not I'm not proude. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. What I'm saying 747 00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:22,199 is that I think that the in a similar vein the rise in vigilante movies 748 00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:30,239 in the nineteen seventies and eighties, putting a dirty harry on a pedestal or 749 00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:39,199 healthy instincts, providing that the means by which that instinct is channeled is cronic 750 00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:51,239 justice reform and not the establishment of vigilante militias. So I I suppose we 751 00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:55,519 all agree on this. I'm not at all bothered by this feeling of righteous 752 00:52:55,559 --> 00:53:01,760 indignation that manifested self in John Wick movies or what you are. I just 753 00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:07,960 don't want people to confuse that for real life. I say this not to 754 00:53:08,039 --> 00:53:13,079 argue with you, James or John, but because I do see some of 755 00:53:13,119 --> 00:53:22,079 the same people who are the architects of this progressive prosecution disaster looking down on 756 00:53:22,199 --> 00:53:24,719 those who write FAFO on Twitter and say, oh, no, you shouldn't 757 00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:28,639 think that. Well, actually, no, you've got to choose one. 758 00:53:29,159 --> 00:53:37,000 You've got to choose one. If you don't want people to lionize Bernie gets, 759 00:53:37,039 --> 00:53:43,039 then put police on subway. You can't not do all of the things 760 00:53:43,039 --> 00:53:46,400 that people expect from the government and then say to them, and also, 761 00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:52,119 you're not allowed to fantasize about doing it yourself. That's just a completely unsustainable 762 00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:55,559 position. I know it's not your position, but that actually is the logical 763 00:53:55,679 --> 00:54:00,599 endpoint of some of the people who say defa the police and end in constoration. 764 00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:05,679 I mean, there are unfortunately they're relatively influential with an elite culture, 765 00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:08,719 if not the country at large. There are people out there who write essays 766 00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:14,320 in the nation saying we should have no prisons, we should have no courts, 767 00:54:14,559 --> 00:54:19,320 we should have no laws in effect, because these are all tools of 768 00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:24,519 imperialism or of capitalists. And that's what I was getting into when I say 769 00:54:24,519 --> 00:54:28,960 that there's no cloud Piven, there's no grand strategy and the rest of it. 770 00:54:29,079 --> 00:54:31,119 They're not that smart, they're not that capable. What they are is 771 00:54:31,159 --> 00:54:35,960 holding to a whole bunch of ideas that is grounded in root causism. That 772 00:54:36,039 --> 00:54:39,320 the idea that well, you can't really punish people for these things because it's 773 00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:44,960 a reflection of certain realities in this country and its country is founding and it's 774 00:54:45,119 --> 00:54:50,880 very narrow, and that until those things are addressed and structurally reformed, and 775 00:54:51,079 --> 00:54:54,960 structurally, root and branch, everything's taken out. You can't do anything you 776 00:54:55,320 --> 00:55:00,639 ought not to do something. You can, but you shouldn't because the real 777 00:55:00,679 --> 00:55:04,880 problem is America without whoever in many case you want to spell it and so, 778 00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:07,400 and I mean, that's an idea they've held unmolested in their heads since 779 00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:10,440 they were seventeen eighteen, you know, hit and taking the first hit out 780 00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:14,920 the bond, and they regarded this as the sign of an intellectual, enlightened 781 00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:19,199 person, you know, a nice, wonderful trans national hand holding kumbaye person 782 00:55:19,199 --> 00:55:22,440 who would guide us all to the to the Davos paradise around the corner. 783 00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:29,119 But unfortunately it's nonsense. It's absolute nonsense. And you're you're right. So 784 00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:32,800 what you mentioned the John Wick movies, which are you know, gratuitous and 785 00:55:34,199 --> 00:55:36,639 blood stirring and all the rest of it. But when you go back to 786 00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:38,320 Clint Eastwood, and you go back to Charles Bronson, and you go back 787 00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:43,679 to all those seventies urban fantasies, they were movies, and they were not 788 00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:45,320 very good movies. I mean, I took a look at Death Wish the 789 00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:50,920 other day. I started watching it. It's just awful. Do you remember 790 00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:53,679 who one of the criminals is who comes in and terrorizes the family of Charles 791 00:55:53,679 --> 00:55:57,880 Brons. Yeah, I know Charles Bronson, who's an architect, by the 792 00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:00,400 way, And only in nineteen seventy one, ever could somebody with those lapels 793 00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:06,079 and that mustache be an architect instead of a Camel's cigarette spokesman or a porn 794 00:56:06,119 --> 00:56:09,400 star. Okay, so John knows this one. We'll see if Charles does 795 00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:15,360 one of the Because these movies always have the punks that you just want to 796 00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:21,000 see get it, because they just they're they're just awful. They used to 797 00:56:21,039 --> 00:56:23,679 be the beat daddio guys in the in the late fifties and sixties, like 798 00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:27,679 hey man, and they'd be taunting and all the rest of it. You 799 00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:32,079 just wanted them dead. And it was the seventies punks, the switchblading, 800 00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:37,440 you know, creepy prvy types who were just there to take you women folk. 801 00:56:38,039 --> 00:56:45,800 Who was the bad rapist in Death Wish? Criminal Jeff Arge, criminal, 802 00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:49,559 Jeff goldbl He was a thug. I'm glad he was not typecast in 803 00:56:49,599 --> 00:56:54,960 that way. He was very hesitant thug, but herbane sophisticated. But yes, 804 00:56:55,079 --> 00:57:00,880 he was speaking of herbane and sophisticated right, speaking of her and sophisticated 805 00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:04,320 less. Before we go, Cherld, how do you feel about the restoration 806 00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:07,800 of the dress code in the Senate that we no longer have to be we 807 00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:10,679 have to have schlump chic. I'm all in favor of a dress code in 808 00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:16,840 the Senate because I think that clothes are a classic time and place issue. 809 00:57:17,239 --> 00:57:22,239 I am not somebody who spends most of my day's dress to the nines. 810 00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:27,719 I live on the beach, and I dress accordingly. But I wouldn't wear 811 00:57:27,719 --> 00:57:32,000 the clothes that I wear to the beach to a funeral. And I wouldn't 812 00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:36,599 wear them if I were in the military, and I don't think I should 813 00:57:36,639 --> 00:57:39,599 wear them in the US Senate either, or if I were President of the 814 00:57:39,719 --> 00:57:44,840 United States. And the other observation I have at this, which is not 815 00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:46,920 mine, is yuvol Evins, but I'm stealing it, is that this is 816 00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:52,559 a classic example of somebody who has gone into an institution that is much bigger 817 00:57:52,559 --> 00:57:55,920 than him, that predates him by hundreds of years. And instead of saying, 818 00:57:57,320 --> 00:58:00,480 well, I wished to become a part of this, therefore I will 819 00:58:00,519 --> 00:58:05,559 be a part of it, has said my wants and needs a superior and 820 00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:10,760 this institution must change for no obvious reason. It's not as if, and 821 00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:14,880 I know this will sound a little bit chellish, but it's not as if 822 00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:21,039 John Fetterman can suddenly process audio properly if he puts on a hoodie. And 823 00:58:21,159 --> 00:58:25,880 there is no good reason for this at all. It's pure want. So 824 00:58:27,199 --> 00:58:29,960 I think it's excellent that the Senate has pushed back. It's given me a 825 00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:34,079 little bit of faith actually in the system to say no. Excellent John, 826 00:58:34,119 --> 00:58:38,920 your last thoughts on the matter. You're wearing a seeing senator grew from He 827 00:58:39,079 --> 00:58:45,480 just reminds you of grew from me. With his legs are holding up a 828 00:58:45,519 --> 00:58:49,320 lot of They are the real heroes here, John Futterman's legs holding up that 829 00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:55,000 frame. But it's not about fashion. It's it's about respect, respect for 830 00:58:55,079 --> 00:59:00,679 the institution, as Charles says, respect for other people. I had the 831 00:59:00,719 --> 00:59:06,960 experience of being at one of these crazy fantasy pools at a resort with my 832 00:59:07,119 --> 00:59:08,719 kids, and I hadn't been to a place like that in quite a while, 833 00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:13,760 and I'm looking around and I remember muttering to my wife, people really 834 00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:17,199 need to wear more clothes. It wasn't like anything they were wearing with scandalous. 835 00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:22,400 It's just like, I don't need that kind of gentlemen of my age 836 00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:29,400 wearing silver speedos. Maybe reel it back in a little bit, show difference 837 00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:34,320 to the organization, show respect to your colleagues and the people you are at 838 00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:37,840 least claiming to serve. I agree, but at a resort, you know, 839 00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:39,679 it is a place where it's hot and there's water. And frankly, 840 00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:43,960 if you can carry it off when you're sixty two, more power to you. 841 00:59:45,039 --> 00:59:46,639 And I say that, and I'm going to quit now before anybody demands 842 00:59:46,719 --> 00:59:50,119 some sort of photographic proof, which I would have to provide. And we 843 00:59:50,199 --> 00:59:52,599 all know how the yellow tank top went. This podcast brought to you by 844 00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:57,320 Beam. If you want to sleep, Beam is where you want to go. 845 00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:00,039 Beam. Oh it's this great stuff. Tell you and like I did, 846 01:00:00,079 --> 01:00:02,320 I tell you about the little electric mixer. It's great anyway, go 847 01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:06,519 there, linked there and support them for supporting us. And if you could 848 01:00:06,559 --> 01:00:08,639 take five minutes to give us a five star review, that's right, one 849 01:00:08,719 --> 01:00:10,840 minute per review. No, you can do it in five seconds, go 850 01:00:12,039 --> 01:00:15,760 click do it. It'll help people find the show, and those people the 851 01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:17,760 show and find Ricochet and join Ricochet, which you should do if you have 852 01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:23,239 not already, and we will continue on into the next decade and belong there, 853 01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:25,639 he said, decade like John F. Kennedy talking about the moon. 854 01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:29,039 That's it. Maybe Peter and Rob will be back next week. If not, 855 01:00:29,119 --> 01:00:30,519 we'll have John and Charlie, which is always fun. And thank you 856 01:00:30,639 --> 01:00:34,719 guys for showing up. It's been a great podcast. Great to talk to 857 01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:37,960 you again and see you again. And we will see everybody in the comments 858 01:00:37,039 --> 01:00:42,239 at Ricochet, not five point oh Charlie, that's coming when Charlie when went 859 01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:50,039 when it is out of beta testing. We have completed the podcast side of 860 01:00:50,079 --> 01:00:53,000 it completely, all posts, comments, set trip and migrated. We're just 861 01:00:53,079 --> 01:00:55,719 working on the interface. When they got the beated data, we'll know, 862 01:00:57,039 --> 01:00:59,880 but for now, we'll see you all in the comments at Ricochet. Four 863 01:01:00,199 --> 01:01:07,119 pointo. Ricochet joined the conversation.