WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.800 --> 00:00:15.320 This week's trip cast is sponsored by Philanthropy Advocates. Texas Philanthropy knows that advancing 2 00:00:15.439 --> 00:00:20.239 education is investing in economic opportunity for students, family, and our state. 3 00:00:20.839 --> 00:00:27.760 Learn more at eedtx dot org. And Methodist Healthcare Ministries is committed to health 4 00:00:27.800 --> 00:00:32.520 equity, striving to create more fair and just opportunities for all to thrive. 5 00:00:33.079 --> 00:00:48.759 Learn more at MHM dot org. I don't have to hello and welcome to 6 00:00:48.799 --> 00:00:52.920 the Texas Tribune trip Cast for June sixteenth, twenty twenty three. My name's 7 00:00:52.960 --> 00:00:56.880 Matthew Watkins, Managing editor for the Tribune. This week, we're going to 8 00:00:56.880 --> 00:01:00.799 talk about Texas Republicans and why they can't seem to get a lot these days. 9 00:01:00.159 --> 00:01:03.200 In the past month, we've had the Attorney General call for the resignation 10 00:01:03.200 --> 00:01:08.159 of the House Speaker, the Republican led House impeaching that attorney General, the 11 00:01:08.239 --> 00:01:12.680 Lieutenant governor calling a property tax plan supported by the governor and the state's leading 12 00:01:12.719 --> 00:01:18.560 conservative think tank a joke and a fantasy, and accusing the House Speaker of 13 00:01:18.599 --> 00:01:23.319 pushing a plan to relate it to property taxes that would boost his own financial 14 00:01:23.319 --> 00:01:29.760 interests. This week, Governor Greg Abbott has vetoed eight bills. Seven of 15 00:01:29.799 --> 00:01:34.840 those were authored by Republicans. Most have been vetoed because Abbott explicitly stated he's 16 00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:40.359 mad at the Republicans for not passing a property tax bill. The House voted 17 00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:46.719 unanimously to expel a Republican member of the legislature this last month in Congress, 18 00:01:46.760 --> 00:01:51.040 the US rep Hip Roy has helped lead a mutiny against the Republican House Speaker. 19 00:01:51.760 --> 00:01:53.840 Oh and I guess maybe we should also bring out that one of our 20 00:01:53.879 --> 00:01:59.920 panelists for this show reported last year that Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick tried to recruit 21 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:04.359 Rick Perry to run against Abbott ahead of the twenty twenty two elections. That 22 00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:08.479 same story talked about associates of Donald Trump telling people close to Ken Paxton, 23 00:02:08.520 --> 00:02:14.400 the Attorney General, and Agriculture Commissioner Sid Miller that Patrick had worked to undermine 24 00:02:14.479 --> 00:02:19.879 Trump's support for them. So it's a big pot mess in the Republican Party 25 00:02:19.919 --> 00:02:23.319 these days. They're winning elections but fighting with each other. Here to talk 26 00:02:23.360 --> 00:02:29.280 about that dynamic today is Mark Davis, a conservative radio host for Dallas's six 27 00:02:29.439 --> 00:02:34.360 sixty am The Answer and a frequent interviewer of the state's top Republican officials. 28 00:02:34.479 --> 00:02:37.560 Hey, Mark, thanks for joining us. Matt you pleasure to be here. 29 00:02:37.599 --> 00:02:42.199 Thank you. And we've also got Patrick's VTech our politics reporter back again. 30 00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:46.159 Hey Patrick, Hey, thanks for having me, Thanks for joining us. 31 00:02:46.199 --> 00:02:47.840 All right, so let's talk about impeachment first. On Tuesday, the 32 00:02:47.879 --> 00:02:53.080 sin is expected to vote on its rules for the upcoming impeachment trial. Paxton's 33 00:02:53.120 --> 00:02:58.439 attorneys and supporters have waged a public push to get rules favorable to Paxton, 34 00:02:58.840 --> 00:03:04.800 and we've seen some geo parties, county level parties calling for essentially throwing the 35 00:03:04.879 --> 00:03:09.080 charges out against Paxton. Mark Tony Busby, Paxiston's lead attorney, appeared on 36 00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:14.400 your show yesterday Thursday. Can you tell us a little bit about the case 37 00:03:14.439 --> 00:03:20.159 he made to you on this issue. Sure. It's interesting because anytime you 38 00:03:20.199 --> 00:03:23.120 have an adversarial situation that's about to play out, whether in a courtroom or 39 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:28.759 sometimes in an impeachment, there might be some wiggle rooms, some gray area, 40 00:03:28.840 --> 00:03:34.840 some nuance. There is precisely none here. The house managers, through 41 00:03:34.879 --> 00:03:38.400 their celebrity attorneys, mister Harden, mister de Garren, they have said, 42 00:03:38.680 --> 00:03:42.919 when when we lay this out for you, you can look at those articles 43 00:03:42.919 --> 00:03:46.919 of impeachment, it's ten times worse. And up against that, mister Buzby 44 00:03:47.000 --> 00:03:51.560 says, not just we're going to go at this case by case or count 45 00:03:51.599 --> 00:03:55.560 by count. He says that every single one of them is intellectually vacant, 46 00:03:57.120 --> 00:04:01.240 that Paxton is innocent of absolutely every thing, and that he will and that 47 00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:05.240 he will prove it. So now there's going to be an odd and interesting 48 00:04:05.400 --> 00:04:11.039 vacuum because, as you mentioned, next week, Senate will offer up some 49 00:04:12.080 --> 00:04:15.079 framework of rules through which this will all happen. But it's a good two 50 00:04:15.120 --> 00:04:18.439 months before any of this plays out, so it'll be interesting to see what 51 00:04:18.560 --> 00:04:24.079 kind of lobbying in the court of public opinion will will spring forth. As 52 00:04:24.120 --> 00:04:28.199 for mister Busby, he is not shy. He not only points to the 53 00:04:28.279 --> 00:04:33.879 articles of impeachment as vapid and threadbare, he looks at the motivation of this 54 00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:41.160 entire thing as a political assassination and seeks to besmirch it at that level before 55 00:04:41.240 --> 00:04:44.839 he even opens his mouth in the Senate. Cham Yeah, no one has 56 00:04:44.839 --> 00:04:47.879 ever accused Tony Buzby of being shy, that is for sure. Patrick. 57 00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:54.079 You got your hands on a letter from the House impeachment managers kind of seemed 58 00:04:54.120 --> 00:04:58.720 like in response to some of this kind of public posture by Buzzby, they 59 00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:00.439 are doing their own sort of p string. Can you kind of sum up 60 00:05:00.920 --> 00:05:08.079 the case that they are making to the Senate leadership. Sure, and it 61 00:05:08.120 --> 00:05:10.480 should be said, you know, for maybe folks that have been falling this 62 00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:15.480 um. You know, there's a lot of anticipation building for these rules because 63 00:05:15.519 --> 00:05:21.040 the Constitution and state law really are silent on what the rules like, what 64 00:05:21.120 --> 00:05:25.160 the parameters of the rules have to be. So that gives a lot of 65 00:05:25.160 --> 00:05:30.720 power to the Senate to devise the rules of procedure for this trial. And 66 00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:34.560 so the memo that you just mentioned from the House Impeachment Managers appeared to be 67 00:05:34.600 --> 00:05:40.199 a response to what Buzzby has been saying on Mark Show and in other media 68 00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:44.319 outlets recently. One of the big things he's been emphasizing is that he would 69 00:05:44.319 --> 00:05:49.600 like a rule from the Senate that basically allows the Senators to uh, you 70 00:05:49.639 --> 00:05:54.959 know, dismiss these articles or maybe some of them, maybe all of them, 71 00:05:55.000 --> 00:05:58.000 but basically before they get to a real trial. You know, he's 72 00:05:58.040 --> 00:06:02.560 saying it's similar to what would probably formally known as a summary procedure, which 73 00:06:02.600 --> 00:06:08.800 is basically taking all the evidence captured up into this point and just having the 74 00:06:08.800 --> 00:06:15.399 Senate vote on that before proceeding with any further investigation or evidence vetting or motions. 75 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:18.920 So that's the main thing that he seems to be pushing, and he's 76 00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:25.240 warning very vocally that if there isn't a mechanism for that, these senators could 77 00:06:25.240 --> 00:06:28.759 be in for a pretty painstaking process. You know, he's talked about how 78 00:06:28.759 --> 00:06:32.040 they've identified i think sixty six witnesses. You know, he said there's obviously 79 00:06:32.040 --> 00:06:35.040 going to be thousands of pages of documents. This could take up to a 80 00:06:35.199 --> 00:06:41.160 year. And so his message to the Senate, I think has been pretty 81 00:06:41.199 --> 00:06:44.879 clear in some of these media appearances, which is, if you don't you 82 00:06:44.920 --> 00:06:47.160 know, if we have to move to a real trial, we're confident, 83 00:06:47.240 --> 00:06:51.160 but you guys better be ready for what an actual real trial looks like on 84 00:06:51.199 --> 00:06:55.480 twenty articles of impeachment. And so the memo that you mentioned from the House 85 00:06:55.519 --> 00:07:00.600 Impeachment Managers was sent yesterday Thursday to the Senate Rules Committee, and it basically 86 00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:05.040 tried to rebut Buzzby instead that you know, suggested that he's pushing for a 87 00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:11.560 quote sham trial, and you know, pointing to the two previous impeachment trials 88 00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:14.639 that we've had, you know, back in nineteen seventeen and I think in 89 00:07:14.680 --> 00:07:18.680 the nineteen seventies, the house managers offered up i think seventeen different rules that 90 00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:26.279 they basically said they want in this trial. And those rules include everything from 91 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:30.839 um, you know, having cameras there, having frequently published transcripts. They 92 00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:34.439 also, you know, point out that in past impeachment trials there have been 93 00:07:34.519 --> 00:07:39.639 rules related to recusal. Obviously a lot of folks want to know if Ken 94 00:07:39.639 --> 00:07:43.959 Paxson's wife, who's a state Senator, Angela Paxson, would recuse herself in 95 00:07:43.959 --> 00:07:47.040 a trial. So I mean there's a lot of posturing going on as these 96 00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:51.000 rules are being devised. Yeah, you know, the threat of having to 97 00:07:51.160 --> 00:07:55.079 be in Austin for a year for a trial, I think is one that 98 00:07:55.160 --> 00:08:01.079 might since the yeah, yeah exactly, all right, Mark helped me kind 99 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:05.199 of way the politics of this, I mean, we are definitely seeing, 100 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:13.839 um from you know, the Paxson segment of the gop um a push to 101 00:08:13.399 --> 00:08:18.600 you know, make kind of quickly get past this effort and you know, 102 00:08:18.639 --> 00:08:22.600 an idea of um, you know, really pushing the argument that this is 103 00:08:22.680 --> 00:08:26.000 driven by Democrats that this is, you know, driven by the liberal House 104 00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:31.240 and things like that. How much is that push do you think, Wayne 105 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:35.360 on the people who will make these rules and the people who will ultimately in 106 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:41.159 the Senate, you know, have the future of Paxson's time and office in 107 00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:46.279 their hands. As the senators look at this rules framework that they will craft 108 00:08:46.559 --> 00:08:52.519 next week. Patrick's mentioned of the of the summary judgment framework is exactly what 109 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:56.360 Buzzby wants. As in a court and let us say twelve times, as 110 00:08:56.399 --> 00:09:01.840 you guys have mentioned in prior tribes that I've been glad to work my way 111 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:05.960 through. This is not a court of law. This is a completely political 112 00:09:05.559 --> 00:09:09.039 environment. I mean, yes, you still might have witnesses, you still 113 00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:11.960 have evidence, you still have a decision to be made, etc. Someone 114 00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:16.120 presides like a judge, that's Stan Patrick. But it is a purely political 115 00:09:16.720 --> 00:09:20.440 environment and within that realm, these senators. Maybe the first thing that they'll 116 00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:24.960 have to weigh if they get this is the chance to simply say, you 117 00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:28.519 know what, we're throwing this out on its face. But what Buzzby told 118 00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:33.039 me was that he would like for a rule to be crafted or the thirty 119 00:09:33.039 --> 00:09:37.840 one senators before we even get to the months or possibly almost a year of 120 00:09:39.840 --> 00:09:43.960 excruciating trial activity in Austin, as a judge would do. Lawyers would perhaps 121 00:09:43.960 --> 00:09:50.000 smile for a summary judgment, which for the uninitiated essentially says we're asking for 122 00:09:50.159 --> 00:09:54.039 ruling that says this doesn't even meet the bar for going to trial. It 123 00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:58.879 is something that deserves to be tossed for lack of merit. There's no promise 124 00:09:58.919 --> 00:10:01.639 to that would happen in It might not be the smartest optics in the world 125 00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:07.200 if it did. Even if there are Republican senators who would say right now 126 00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:11.039 that they probably intend to equit. That's even the tournament, and they do 127 00:10:11.159 --> 00:10:16.200 not intend to eject Paxson from office, they have to think long and hard 128 00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:20.919 about what it will look like to toss this thing out on its ear without 129 00:10:20.919 --> 00:10:24.240 even having the trial. The positive the grassroots would love it. You know 130 00:10:24.320 --> 00:10:26.320 this, this got exactly what it wanted. It wasn't worth the paper it 131 00:10:26.360 --> 00:10:31.480 was written on. But to the mushy middle, to independence, to whatever 132 00:10:31.720 --> 00:10:35.440 they might say, hmm, what did they fear from a trial? So 133 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:41.320 avoid steps taken to avoid the trial are not without risk, right right, 134 00:10:43.320 --> 00:10:46.840 Patrick? You know we we we started this conversation, or I started this 135 00:10:46.879 --> 00:10:52.679 conversation with a kind of rundown of the very complicated politics of the Republican Party 136 00:10:52.679 --> 00:10:56.320 in Texas. Right now, can you kind of set the picture for us 137 00:10:56.440 --> 00:11:05.720 of what can Paxson's relationship with the Senate has been and is over these last 138 00:11:05.720 --> 00:11:07.120 few years. I mean, I know he used to serve of course his 139 00:11:07.240 --> 00:11:11.799 wife is a member of that Senate, But what is that dynamic there and 140 00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:16.919 how might that play into this? Yeah, that's a good question. As 141 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:20.759 you pointed out, he has some very direct ties to the Senate. Of 142 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:24.360 course his wife serves there. You know, I think there are probably some 143 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:28.799 other state senators that he's more personally friendly with, so you have to take 144 00:11:28.840 --> 00:11:33.679 that into consideration. There were some state senators, a couple state senators who 145 00:11:33.759 --> 00:11:39.840 got involved in his re election campaign last year against him. I believe Senator 146 00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:43.600 Charles Schwartner from Georgetown endorsed George P. Bush, who was running against Ken 147 00:11:43.639 --> 00:11:48.720 Paxton in the primary. Last year. You had another senator who was a 148 00:11:48.759 --> 00:11:52.279 House member at the time, May's Middleton, who was a top donor to 149 00:11:52.720 --> 00:11:56.480 Matt Krouse when he ran against Ken Paxton in the primary, and then Louie 150 00:11:56.480 --> 00:12:01.080 Gomert when Matt Krouse dropped out and Louie Gobert ran again Paxixton in the primary. 151 00:12:01.279 --> 00:12:05.759 So some of these guys have you know, more unique personal political history 152 00:12:05.799 --> 00:12:09.639 with Paxxton. We shouldn't, of course, we shouldn't just assume because they 153 00:12:09.639 --> 00:12:15.960 opposed him in a political campaign that they are necessarily inclined to um, you 154 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:18.720 know, oppose him in a Senate trial. We should certainly give them the 155 00:12:18.759 --> 00:12:22.840 benefit of the doubt. But you know, that's of course political history that 156 00:12:22.919 --> 00:12:26.960 is worth noting when it comes to the lieutenant governor, who doesn't have a 157 00:12:26.039 --> 00:12:30.759 vote in the trial, but acts as the judge in the trial. The 158 00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:35.159 lieutenant governor, you know, ultimately did endorse Paxton for reelection in his primary 159 00:12:35.240 --> 00:12:37.519 runoff last year. Uh, you know, there was a little bit of 160 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:45.240 question beforehand how committed Patrick was or how interested Patrick wasn't seeing Ken Paxton make 161 00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:48.559 it through that primary. But Patrick, you know, you mentioned are reporting 162 00:12:48.559 --> 00:12:52.759 at the time. But Patrick seemed to put that to bed when he formally 163 00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:56.919 got behind Paxton in the runoff. And so, you know, those are 164 00:12:56.919 --> 00:13:01.639 just some of the political relationships that that may come into play here. Mark 165 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:09.200 I wonder if what you think about, if what's going on with President Trump 166 00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:16.159 right now affects this in any way. You know, Trump of course spoke 167 00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:20.840 out against the idea of impeachment the morning of impeachment in the House. He 168 00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:26.720 is of course now otherwise occupied, you know, dealing with his own legal 169 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:33.200 issues, and I don't know how closely he'll be paying attention to this trial 170 00:13:33.440 --> 00:13:39.440 or this case. And also I don't know how much what's going on in 171 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:43.679 Florida right now sucks up the kind of oxygen around this. Do you think 172 00:13:43.799 --> 00:13:52.000 there is a Trump element to this issue, to this debate over the next 173 00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:58.039 few months. People pay attention to the news, and they notice things happening, 174 00:13:58.039 --> 00:14:01.440 and sometimes there are things that harmonize, there are things that seem to 175 00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:07.120 be traveling on parallel tracks. Without regard to the merit of either of these 176 00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:11.480 observations, I can say that the largely conservative listenership that I have is of 177 00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:16.879 a mind that Trump is being persecuted politically, that even if there are some 178 00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:20.840 things he should have done with those stupid documents, that having this rise to 179 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:26.200 the level of this indictment is insane and it's a politicized witch hunted down there. 180 00:14:26.279 --> 00:14:28.080 So there's note number one, the note that sings in harmony here. 181 00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:33.159 For Texas conservatives, they take a look at what's happening to Paxman, and 182 00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:37.720 they view a phenomenon that is similar. They take a look at a Texas 183 00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:43.679 house where sixty I believe it was right, sixty Republicans found a reason to 184 00:14:43.759 --> 00:14:46.799 impeach him. And of these sixty, how many of them have been spending 185 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:52.440 the previous weeks or months or years decrying the horrible ethics of Ken Paxton. 186 00:14:52.440 --> 00:14:56.919 The answer is virtually none of them. And yet all of a sudden day 187 00:14:56.039 --> 00:15:00.960 feeling throws a hissy fit over the three point five million dollars ettlement doesn't want 188 00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:03.159 to pay it, and all of a sudden we get a forty eight hour 189 00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:07.399 impeachment rush. You can't not notice that. It doesn't mean you have to 190 00:15:07.399 --> 00:15:13.080 buy into it and presume that it's exactly the same phenomenon one involving Trump, 191 00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:18.440 one involving Paxton. But there are certain shared characteristics noticed by many. Yeah, 192 00:15:18.519 --> 00:15:24.360 so let's just fly forward in the hypothetical world. Let's say, in 193 00:15:24.919 --> 00:15:31.000 you know, early September, the Senate votes to remove Ken Paxton from office. 194 00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:35.399 On that you know, Tuesday Morning Show or whatever. How angry are 195 00:15:35.440 --> 00:15:41.440 your listeners at the Senate for doing this or are they angry? Okay, 196 00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:46.200 the short answer is they likely will be. There's only one thing that will 197 00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:52.759 prevent you know, flaming torches in the street metaphorically speaking, and that is 198 00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:58.919 it because perfectly phrased question, because let's say it is September. It's kind 199 00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:00.279 of funny though, that'll be a brief trial, won't it, Because I 200 00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:04.120 have started on August, Judia, Please God let it be September rather than 201 00:16:04.200 --> 00:16:08.720 you know, July of twenty four. There's only one thing that will quell 202 00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:14.799 the kind of righteous indignation that what you describe would would yield. And that 203 00:16:14.919 --> 00:16:18.480 is if the trial, which we will all hang on with bated breath, 204 00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:26.000 if the house managers and the attorneys do such a compelling job of painting a 205 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:33.639 picture of corruption, mouthfeasance, and abuse of office that even the Paxton fan 206 00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:38.120 base has a percentage that says, wow, we love Ken, but that 207 00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:42.639 was bad. So what's the likelihood of that happening? I don't know. 208 00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:48.159 As you guys in past Tribe casts have observed, there's very little in this 209 00:16:48.279 --> 00:16:52.840 that hasn't been swirling around in the ether for in some cases with the securities 210 00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:56.200 broad stuffs. It's twenty fifteen. This is all. I mean, I 211 00:16:56.240 --> 00:16:59.720 don't want to call all of it old news, but the fact of the 212 00:16:59.759 --> 00:17:02.840 matter is that some of the things in the articles of impeachment have worked their 213 00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:07.119 way through the Texas court system and yielded nothing. The whistleblowers, oh, 214 00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:11.720 these whistleblowers who were so up in arms about something, they took their complaints 215 00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:18.839 right to the FBI. FBI investigated it once again yielded nothing. And the 216 00:17:18.920 --> 00:17:23.000 voters throughout this entire process have ruled on two occasions that they overwhelmingly want Ken 217 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:26.319 Paxton to be the attorney General. So it's going to have to be a 218 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:32.799 crazy turn of events in that trial to have the Paxton fan base say grudgingly 219 00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:37.720 that his ejection was deserved. So, Patrick, what are you watching for 220 00:17:37.880 --> 00:17:42.680 on Tuesday? Well, first of all, I'm just watching to see how 221 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:47.759 these rules are proposed, if it's going to even be a public proceeding, 222 00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:51.640 Like we reported in our story today, I mean, there's just not a 223 00:17:51.640 --> 00:17:56.279 lot of not a lot known about this rule. Committee rules, committees, 224 00:17:56.480 --> 00:18:00.279 deliberations, you know, we know the member on the committee. We don't 225 00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:04.839 know if they've met, We don't know, you know, what the contours 226 00:18:04.880 --> 00:18:08.519 of their conversations have been like. And so I'll be just watching Tuesday to 227 00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:12.519 see how we learn about what the proposed rules are. And I should note 228 00:18:12.519 --> 00:18:18.160 in the resolution that the Senate pass that creates this rules process, it just 229 00:18:18.200 --> 00:18:21.279 said they have to present the rules on Tuesday to the full Senate. It 230 00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:26.119 didn't say they necessarily have to vote on them. So I'll just be watching 231 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:29.880 some of the basic things on Tuesday, like, you know, will we 232 00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:33.759 get a public view of the rules, will they be voted on, because 233 00:18:33.880 --> 00:18:38.119 you know, once they're voted on, that effectively friggers the decision by Dan 234 00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:42.480 Patrick to pick a trial start date sometime between then and August twenty eight. 235 00:18:42.839 --> 00:18:47.039 So I'll just watching the basic things, all right. Let's pause for a 236 00:18:47.079 --> 00:18:52.480 moment here. From our sponsors, Texas BioMed pioneers and shares scientific breakthroughs that 237 00:18:52.599 --> 00:18:56.799 protect our communities. Health starts with science, Health starts at Texas BioMed. 238 00:18:57.279 --> 00:19:04.640 Visit tx BioMed org for more. And Texas twenty thirty six building long term 239 00:19:04.759 --> 00:19:11.079 data driven strategies to secure Texas's prosperity through our bi centennial and beyond. Find 240 00:19:11.079 --> 00:19:15.680 out more at Texas twenty thirty six dot org. Okay, now, let's 241 00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:21.400 look at the other thing that's been causing a lot of fighting among the Republicans 242 00:19:21.519 --> 00:19:26.799 this week. Property taxes. It another week has passed without much visible progress 243 00:19:26.839 --> 00:19:30.039 on reaching a compromise between the House and the Senate. You know, the 244 00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:34.440 two competing proposals, as listeners of this show will know, is whether the 245 00:19:34.519 --> 00:19:40.039 House or whether the Legislature should spend all of the money that they've set aside 246 00:19:40.039 --> 00:19:47.240 for property tax reduction on essentially compressing lowering property tax rates, or whether some 247 00:19:47.319 --> 00:19:52.920 of that money should be pulled aside to specifically target homeowners and increase their savings 248 00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:59.400 from property taxes is a little bit more than other property owners in the state. 249 00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:03.799 The A dramatic action we've seen around this this week is Abbot's vetos, 250 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:07.359 which I mentioned earlier in the show, where he vetoed I think eight bills 251 00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:11.599 this week, seven of which by Republicans signing. In his veto note, 252 00:20:11.720 --> 00:20:15.920 you know, this bill is not as important as property taxes, and we 253 00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:22.599 can reconsider this idea once property taxes are past. Patrick, what's the strategy 254 00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:29.119 Here's what's Abbot hoping to accomplish with this well big picture that you know, 255 00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:33.240 as we've discussed before as an almost academic matter, the governor, you know, 256 00:20:33.799 --> 00:20:40.240 often finds himself wanting for tools at his disposal to influence the legislative process, 257 00:20:40.359 --> 00:20:42.759 right, I mean, you know, it's not a position that has 258 00:20:42.799 --> 00:20:48.039 a lot of ways of influencing the legislative process formally other than just using the 259 00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:49.519 bully pulpit. So he's trying to leverage the one tool, you know, 260 00:20:49.640 --> 00:20:52.279 one of the few tools he has at this point, which is the threat 261 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:56.200 of a veto. He can buy Sunday, he has to either sign or 262 00:20:56.319 --> 00:21:00.920 veto bills or if he doesn't sign them, they still become law. So 263 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:04.160 he's trying to leverage one of the few, you know, formal tools at 264 00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:07.480 his disposal would try to influence the legislative process. At this point, he's 265 00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:11.079 trying to wield the threat of a veto and the following through a vetoing some 266 00:21:11.240 --> 00:21:17.000 bills to try to coax a compromise out of the House and Senate on property 267 00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:22.160 taxes, something that I think is politically you know, going on. At 268 00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:25.440 the same time, here is he he has seemed in recent days to cool 269 00:21:25.960 --> 00:21:30.400 on his allegiance to the House in this standoff. We saw the House immediately 270 00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:33.640 pass what he wanted in his special session call. He came out that that 271 00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:37.839 evening and said, the House did what I want it. Senate needs to 272 00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:41.079 get this to my desk and we can all go home, basically. And 273 00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:47.319 in recent days he's been far less firmly on the House's side as it has 274 00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:51.359 instead been calling for a House Senate compromise, and is you know, in 275 00:21:51.400 --> 00:21:53.920 my view of it, kind of been leaving the House out to dry after 276 00:21:55.000 --> 00:21:57.160 firmly siding with them early on. And so you know, I think he's 277 00:21:57.240 --> 00:22:02.559 he's had some political missteps in this and probably the past week or so here 278 00:22:03.319 --> 00:22:07.160 and now you know, we're obviously at the point where he's trying to threaten 279 00:22:07.319 --> 00:22:11.400 and take drastic measures by be doing bills. All right, Mark, I 280 00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:14.480 did a temperature check with you on impeachment. Now I'm going to do one 281 00:22:14.559 --> 00:22:19.880 on property taxes. What's the what's the feeling of the listeners on homestead exemptions, 282 00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:26.480 compression things like that? Is that something that there's a lot of debate 283 00:22:26.519 --> 00:22:33.039 over? Is there is that something that even the average texting understands the okay, 284 00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:40.319 define average, but define average that that's going to be probably not giving 285 00:22:40.359 --> 00:22:45.000 credit, especially to the kind listenership that graces me every day paying attention to 286 00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:51.319 the issues up to a certain point. What's the overarching sentiment is how arcane 287 00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:53.440 so much of this is. I know, deep in the weeds, it 288 00:22:53.480 --> 00:23:00.480 really does matter issues of compression of what benefits homeowners versus what benefits This is 289 00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:04.240 the shades of difference between what Patrick and the Senate might want in abbot and 290 00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:11.079 the House might want. But above the din of all of that is a 291 00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:14.359 clarion call from just about every listener I have, not all of them. 292 00:23:14.440 --> 00:23:19.160 Republican is guys, pull your heads out and do something. Texas for years 293 00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:25.079 has gotten away with this reputation as a low tax state, a tax haven, 294 00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:26.880 which in some ways we are. We don't have state income tax, 295 00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:33.960 but property taxes are brutal here. They're absolutely punitive, and ultimately, I 296 00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:40.559 think most listeners and most average Texans are very bottom line oriented. I don't 297 00:23:40.599 --> 00:23:45.920 think that there'll be a lot of people up in arms when one idea prevails 298 00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:48.599 over the other. They just would say, for God's sake, give us 299 00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:53.079 some form of relief. Yeah. Yeah, I was gonna say, I 300 00:23:53.079 --> 00:23:57.240 feel like, you know, not that I'm having necessarily having these conversations with 301 00:23:57.319 --> 00:24:00.720 these Texans every single day, but I gotta imagine at this point the average 302 00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:04.759 Texan just frustrated that there's there's no progress. And I feel like to the 303 00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:11.880 average maybe Republican leading voter, they're willing to stomach some intra party sniping on 304 00:24:12.359 --> 00:24:17.680 social issues and things where there may not be Republican unanimity across the board. 305 00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:23.119 But I think it seems like a damaging appearance that Texas Republicans can't find compromise 306 00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:30.319 on issues where they're generally united even which kind of leads to my big picture 307 00:24:30.440 --> 00:24:33.960 question that I wanted to ask Mark, is just what is going on with 308 00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:38.359 They're Republican leaders in Texas right now, why can they not get along on 309 00:24:38.440 --> 00:24:47.559 anything? Okay, this will be by its nature simplistic, but it works 310 00:24:47.599 --> 00:24:52.160 as an overall model. Within the Republican Party. You can say there are 311 00:24:52.200 --> 00:24:57.599 factions that are what you might call the grassroots, the staunch conservatives, the 312 00:24:57.680 --> 00:25:03.519 Trumpian pack stone on in. You know that everybody knows what I'm talking about. 313 00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:08.480 There's also the slice of the Republican pie that is a little more establishment 314 00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:15.319 might have liked McCain and Paul Ryan over Trump, might like Dave Feelan over 315 00:25:15.400 --> 00:25:23.640 anyone of Dan Patrick's Senate Republicans as a group, we are used to doing 316 00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:27.880 ideological battle with the left, with liberals, with Democrats. That's baked into 317 00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:32.160 our daily lives, and there is a certain almost comfort zone to that. 318 00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:33.039 It's like, well, we're on the right, they're on the left. 319 00:25:33.319 --> 00:25:37.440 Let's settle up, let's see what we gotta do. But within the Republican 320 00:25:37.480 --> 00:25:42.680 Party there is a passion and a sharpness to this that exists for the following 321 00:25:42.680 --> 00:25:49.759 reason. The Republican Party since twenty fifteen, when Trump and Melania came down, 322 00:25:49.799 --> 00:25:53.720 that escalator has largely been taken over by a kind of a bold, 323 00:25:53.799 --> 00:26:02.759 unapologetic, grassroots populist conservatism which has proven in enormously popular in the country, 324 00:26:03.559 --> 00:26:10.960 in the Republican America and in Republican Taxas. This has driven establishment moderate Republicans 325 00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:15.839 absolutely insane. They can't believe that there go along to get along three yards 326 00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:19.000 on a cloud of dust, give us ten years will solve this. No 327 00:26:19.079 --> 00:26:23.880 longer finds favor with the public. So to wrap up my really long answer. 328 00:26:26.119 --> 00:26:30.000 What we have here as a battle for what direction the party is going 329 00:26:30.039 --> 00:26:34.839 to take, And in the Paxton battle itself is completely emblematic of this. 330 00:26:36.400 --> 00:26:41.279 Dade Feeland and Ken Paxton hold each other in abysmally low regard, and it's 331 00:26:41.319 --> 00:26:45.759 mostly because of the dichotomy that I've just mentioned. Ken Paxton represents everything that 332 00:26:45.880 --> 00:26:56.200 Speaker Feeland thinks is extreme and unsavory about those Trumpian Republicans, and Dade Feeland 333 00:26:56.240 --> 00:27:02.720 represents to Ken Paxton everything that is squishy and moderate and weak. And so 334 00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:07.359 as that battle takes place, that somebody's going to win, somebody's gonna lose. 335 00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:11.400 Not that not that the Republican Party will unanimously reflect either one or the 336 00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:15.640 other, but lately the victories have been racked up by the more conservative side 337 00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:21.359 of Republican taxes, and I don't see that changing in the near future. 338 00:27:22.839 --> 00:27:27.519 Patrick do agree with that. I mean, there is definitely some ideological components 339 00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:32.599 to this, and the House versus Senate fights, you know, date back 340 00:27:33.640 --> 00:27:38.119 for years. And I also got to think that there's some personalities here right, 341 00:27:38.279 --> 00:27:41.279 Like, really, what you need is someone to just come in and 342 00:27:41.319 --> 00:27:44.880 try to take the temperature down and say, hey, look, we're all 343 00:27:44.920 --> 00:27:49.880 Republicans, we all like tax cuts. This shouldn't be that hard if we 344 00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:53.079 can just be nice to each other for a week. No one seems to 345 00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:56.640 be doing that right now. Patrick, Yeah, I think Mark did a 346 00:27:56.640 --> 00:28:00.440 good job of explaining how this fits into the broader Republican ecosystem right now. 347 00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:04.640 So maybe I'll address the three big personalities that play here and why it's maybe 348 00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:08.000 different than past sessions, the big three, the governor, the Lieutenant governor, 349 00:28:08.039 --> 00:28:11.960 the House Speaker. You know, it's it's in my belief that the 350 00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:22.000 three of them entered this legislative cycle with more individual self adsuredness and the feeling 351 00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:26.359 of an individual mandate than previously. And we just came off of a statewide 352 00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:30.960 reelection cycle where the two statewide officials in that group, Dan Patrick and Greg 353 00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:34.720 Abbott won by probably better than expected margins, I think at least ten points 354 00:28:34.759 --> 00:28:38.559 each. So, you know, each of those statewide officials came into this 355 00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:44.240 legislative cycle, you know, fresh off of the feeling of an overwhelming mandate 356 00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:48.160 by the voters of Texas. And then you have Dave feeling in his second 357 00:28:48.200 --> 00:28:52.960 session as speaker, really starting you know, going into this session starting to 358 00:28:52.039 --> 00:28:56.799 hit his stride, I think, and having a lot more confidence after his 359 00:28:56.920 --> 00:28:59.880 first session. I mean, he was able to get reelected as Speaker by 360 00:29:00.039 --> 00:29:03.079 with only a few, you know, a few dissenting votes. And then, 361 00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:06.640 you know, in addition to that feeling of each of them having such 362 00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:12.440 a strong mandate individually, we saw them start charting priorities that below the top 363 00:29:12.519 --> 00:29:17.640 two or three issues were kind of divergent. Um. You know, obviously 364 00:29:17.640 --> 00:29:19.400 they all agreed, all three of us want property tax, really sure, 365 00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:22.680 all three of us want to secure the border. But you saw Abbot and 366 00:29:22.839 --> 00:29:29.240 Patrick and feeling take ownership individually of priorities that weren't always in alignment with one. 367 00:29:29.240 --> 00:29:33.279 Another great example this at least going into the session, was Patrick's overwhelming 368 00:29:33.319 --> 00:29:37.359 emphasis on the grid, which for the longest time, even Abbott couldn't, 369 00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:38.759 you know, come out and say, we still need to, you know, 370 00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:44.839 reform the grid. You had feeling start prioritizing, uh, you know, 371 00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:48.599 bills that were pretty far off politically from what Abbot and Patrick have been 372 00:29:48.680 --> 00:29:52.440 championing over the years. You know, whether it was you know, some 373 00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:57.079 of the healthcare related bills, criminal justice reform related bills, and So that's 374 00:29:57.079 --> 00:30:02.039 just to say it was kind of a two stage process going into this legislative 375 00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:03.880 session, where we saw each three of these guys feel more of a mandate 376 00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:07.680 than ever before for their agenda from the voters of Texas. And then we 377 00:30:07.720 --> 00:30:12.319 saw them chart out priorities that beyond those first two or three issues really started 378 00:30:12.359 --> 00:30:15.240 clashing, and so I think that set them up on a bit of a 379 00:30:15.240 --> 00:30:18.400 collision course this session in a way that we haven't seen before. Yeah, 380 00:30:18.440 --> 00:30:22.559 market's interesting. You know, when I when I came to the Tribune, 381 00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:26.640 the fights between the House and Senate were over things like the bathroom bill, 382 00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:32.079 and you know, poverty taxes were sailing through. And now we're seeing you 383 00:30:32.079 --> 00:30:37.559 know, the more socially conservative things the you know, related to LGBTQ issues 384 00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:41.480 and things like that getting through fairly easily, but fighting over the property taxes. 385 00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:47.960 It's it's interesting to see how the shifts have have happened here in these 386 00:30:48.039 --> 00:30:51.599 last few years. It is and I think the one thing that can be 387 00:30:51.720 --> 00:30:53.559 for somebody that's covered stuff as much as you have and has been on the 388 00:30:53.559 --> 00:30:59.599 beat as long as Patrick has, one thing that can always be reliably counted 389 00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:07.400 upon is the power of the public will to nudge the prevailing results in a 390 00:31:07.400 --> 00:31:12.599 certain direction. The gender wars SB fourteen and fifteen, gender stuff in women's 391 00:31:12.599 --> 00:31:18.680 sports, and stopping the various procedures for minors. This was something dan Patrick 392 00:31:18.759 --> 00:31:23.799 felt very very strongly about that Dade feeling absolutely did not feel strongly about at 393 00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:32.759 all, and Governor Abbott wanted to feel exactly as strongly as would benefit him 394 00:31:32.799 --> 00:31:36.559 politically. He told me, and that sounds unkind I don't mean it to 395 00:31:36.599 --> 00:31:40.559 me. I was having conversation because I'm very energized by such things. And 396 00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:42.160 I'd have him on the show, maybe like a year ago, and he 397 00:31:42.200 --> 00:31:45.160 said, listen, I think and just Indian just drove him crazy. That 398 00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:48.839 every day to Santis would do something and get huge applause for it and everybody 399 00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:52.279 would look at him go well. And he told me one point on one 400 00:31:52.279 --> 00:31:55.440 of those occasions, he said, I'm going to do something, Mark, 401 00:31:55.640 --> 00:31:57.519 I'm gonna do something like it in the coming days. It'll be just the 402 00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:01.880 same as a state that these procedures. And what it was is some stupid 403 00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:07.160 letter from the Department of Family the Services Health Family Services that essentially says we 404 00:32:07.240 --> 00:32:10.519 consider this to be child abused. Well, what a lovely conceptual thing to 405 00:32:10.559 --> 00:32:15.039 do, but it was a far cry from actually having a law that says 406 00:32:15.359 --> 00:32:19.759 we don't do this. So the governor took a look at the temperature and 407 00:32:19.960 --> 00:32:23.039 wisely, I believe, said this is a bill that I will sign, 408 00:32:23.200 --> 00:32:29.240 and he did. All right. Well, we will see how public opinion 409 00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:36.000 drives the action on impeachment and on property taxes in these in these coming weeks. 410 00:32:36.279 --> 00:32:39.319 Thank you, Mark really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you Pasture joining us, 411 00:32:39.640 --> 00:32:43.640 and thank you to our producer Justin. We'll talk to y'all next week 412 00:32:43.720 --> 00:32:53.920 that you just have to join us in Houston June twenty second for the last 413 00:32:53.960 --> 00:33:00.000 event in our continuing series dedicated to recapping the twenty twenty three legislative session. 414 00:33:00.440 --> 00:33:05.400 Learn more an RSVP at Texas Tribune dot org. Slash Events