1 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:15,320 This week's trip cast is sponsored by Philanthropy Advocates. Texas Philanthropy knows that advancing 2 00:00:15,439 --> 00:00:20,239 education is investing in economic opportunity for students, family, and our state. 3 00:00:20,839 --> 00:00:27,760 Learn more at eedtx dot org. And Methodist Healthcare Ministries is committed to health 4 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:32,520 equity, striving to create more fair and just opportunities for all to thrive. 5 00:00:33,079 --> 00:00:48,759 Learn more at MHM dot org. I don't have to hello and welcome to 6 00:00:48,799 --> 00:00:52,920 the Texas Tribune trip Cast for June sixteenth, twenty twenty three. My name's 7 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:56,880 Matthew Watkins, Managing editor for the Tribune. This week, we're going to 8 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,799 talk about Texas Republicans and why they can't seem to get a lot these days. 9 00:01:00,159 --> 00:01:03,200 In the past month, we've had the Attorney General call for the resignation 10 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:08,159 of the House Speaker, the Republican led House impeaching that attorney General, the 11 00:01:08,239 --> 00:01:12,680 Lieutenant governor calling a property tax plan supported by the governor and the state's leading 12 00:01:12,719 --> 00:01:18,560 conservative think tank a joke and a fantasy, and accusing the House Speaker of 13 00:01:18,599 --> 00:01:23,319 pushing a plan to relate it to property taxes that would boost his own financial 14 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:29,760 interests. This week, Governor Greg Abbott has vetoed eight bills. Seven of 15 00:01:29,799 --> 00:01:34,840 those were authored by Republicans. Most have been vetoed because Abbott explicitly stated he's 16 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:40,359 mad at the Republicans for not passing a property tax bill. The House voted 17 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:46,719 unanimously to expel a Republican member of the legislature this last month in Congress, 18 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:51,040 the US rep Hip Roy has helped lead a mutiny against the Republican House Speaker. 19 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:53,840 Oh and I guess maybe we should also bring out that one of our 20 00:01:53,879 --> 00:01:59,920 panelists for this show reported last year that Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick tried to recruit 21 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:04,359 Rick Perry to run against Abbott ahead of the twenty twenty two elections. That 22 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:08,479 same story talked about associates of Donald Trump telling people close to Ken Paxton, 23 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:14,400 the Attorney General, and Agriculture Commissioner Sid Miller that Patrick had worked to undermine 24 00:02:14,479 --> 00:02:19,879 Trump's support for them. So it's a big pot mess in the Republican Party 25 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:23,319 these days. They're winning elections but fighting with each other. Here to talk 26 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:29,280 about that dynamic today is Mark Davis, a conservative radio host for Dallas's six 27 00:02:29,439 --> 00:02:34,360 sixty am The Answer and a frequent interviewer of the state's top Republican officials. 28 00:02:34,479 --> 00:02:37,560 Hey, Mark, thanks for joining us. Matt you pleasure to be here. 29 00:02:37,599 --> 00:02:42,199 Thank you. And we've also got Patrick's VTech our politics reporter back again. 30 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:46,159 Hey Patrick, Hey, thanks for having me, Thanks for joining us. 31 00:02:46,199 --> 00:02:47,840 All right, so let's talk about impeachment first. On Tuesday, the 32 00:02:47,879 --> 00:02:53,080 sin is expected to vote on its rules for the upcoming impeachment trial. Paxton's 33 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:58,439 attorneys and supporters have waged a public push to get rules favorable to Paxton, 34 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:04,800 and we've seen some geo parties, county level parties calling for essentially throwing the 35 00:03:04,879 --> 00:03:09,080 charges out against Paxton. Mark Tony Busby, Paxiston's lead attorney, appeared on 36 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:14,400 your show yesterday Thursday. Can you tell us a little bit about the case 37 00:03:14,439 --> 00:03:20,159 he made to you on this issue. Sure. It's interesting because anytime you 38 00:03:20,199 --> 00:03:23,120 have an adversarial situation that's about to play out, whether in a courtroom or 39 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:28,759 sometimes in an impeachment, there might be some wiggle rooms, some gray area, 40 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:34,840 some nuance. There is precisely none here. The house managers, through 41 00:03:34,879 --> 00:03:38,400 their celebrity attorneys, mister Harden, mister de Garren, they have said, 42 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,919 when when we lay this out for you, you can look at those articles 43 00:03:42,919 --> 00:03:46,919 of impeachment, it's ten times worse. And up against that, mister Buzby 44 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:51,560 says, not just we're going to go at this case by case or count 45 00:03:51,599 --> 00:03:55,560 by count. He says that every single one of them is intellectually vacant, 46 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:01,240 that Paxton is innocent of absolutely every thing, and that he will and that 47 00:04:01,319 --> 00:04:05,240 he will prove it. So now there's going to be an odd and interesting 48 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:11,039 vacuum because, as you mentioned, next week, Senate will offer up some 49 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:15,079 framework of rules through which this will all happen. But it's a good two 50 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,439 months before any of this plays out, so it'll be interesting to see what 51 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:24,079 kind of lobbying in the court of public opinion will will spring forth. As 52 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,199 for mister Busby, he is not shy. He not only points to the 53 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:33,879 articles of impeachment as vapid and threadbare, he looks at the motivation of this 54 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:41,160 entire thing as a political assassination and seeks to besmirch it at that level before 55 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,839 he even opens his mouth in the Senate. Cham Yeah, no one has 56 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,879 ever accused Tony Buzby of being shy, that is for sure. Patrick. 57 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:54,079 You got your hands on a letter from the House impeachment managers kind of seemed 58 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:58,720 like in response to some of this kind of public posture by Buzzby, they 59 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:00,439 are doing their own sort of p string. Can you kind of sum up 60 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:08,079 the case that they are making to the Senate leadership. Sure, and it 61 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,480 should be said, you know, for maybe folks that have been falling this 62 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:15,480 um. You know, there's a lot of anticipation building for these rules because 63 00:05:15,519 --> 00:05:21,040 the Constitution and state law really are silent on what the rules like, what 64 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:25,160 the parameters of the rules have to be. So that gives a lot of 65 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:30,720 power to the Senate to devise the rules of procedure for this trial. And 66 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,560 so the memo that you just mentioned from the House Impeachment Managers appeared to be 67 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:40,199 a response to what Buzzby has been saying on Mark Show and in other media 68 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:44,319 outlets recently. One of the big things he's been emphasizing is that he would 69 00:05:44,319 --> 00:05:49,600 like a rule from the Senate that basically allows the Senators to uh, you 70 00:05:49,639 --> 00:05:54,959 know, dismiss these articles or maybe some of them, maybe all of them, 71 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,000 but basically before they get to a real trial. You know, he's 72 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:02,560 saying it's similar to what would probably formally known as a summary procedure, which 73 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:08,800 is basically taking all the evidence captured up into this point and just having the 74 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:15,399 Senate vote on that before proceeding with any further investigation or evidence vetting or motions. 75 00:06:15,439 --> 00:06:18,920 So that's the main thing that he seems to be pushing, and he's 76 00:06:18,959 --> 00:06:25,240 warning very vocally that if there isn't a mechanism for that, these senators could 77 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,759 be in for a pretty painstaking process. You know, he's talked about how 78 00:06:28,759 --> 00:06:32,040 they've identified i think sixty six witnesses. You know, he said there's obviously 79 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:35,040 going to be thousands of pages of documents. This could take up to a 80 00:06:35,199 --> 00:06:41,160 year. And so his message to the Senate, I think has been pretty 81 00:06:41,199 --> 00:06:44,879 clear in some of these media appearances, which is, if you don't you 82 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:47,160 know, if we have to move to a real trial, we're confident, 83 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:51,160 but you guys better be ready for what an actual real trial looks like on 84 00:06:51,199 --> 00:06:55,480 twenty articles of impeachment. And so the memo that you mentioned from the House 85 00:06:55,519 --> 00:07:00,600 Impeachment Managers was sent yesterday Thursday to the Senate Rules Committee, and it basically 86 00:07:00,639 --> 00:07:05,040 tried to rebut Buzzby instead that you know, suggested that he's pushing for a 87 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:11,560 quote sham trial, and you know, pointing to the two previous impeachment trials 88 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,639 that we've had, you know, back in nineteen seventeen and I think in 89 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:18,680 the nineteen seventies, the house managers offered up i think seventeen different rules that 90 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:26,279 they basically said they want in this trial. And those rules include everything from 91 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:30,839 um, you know, having cameras there, having frequently published transcripts. They 92 00:07:30,879 --> 00:07:34,439 also, you know, point out that in past impeachment trials there have been 93 00:07:34,519 --> 00:07:39,639 rules related to recusal. Obviously a lot of folks want to know if Ken 94 00:07:39,639 --> 00:07:43,959 Paxson's wife, who's a state Senator, Angela Paxson, would recuse herself in 95 00:07:43,959 --> 00:07:47,040 a trial. So I mean there's a lot of posturing going on as these 96 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:51,000 rules are being devised. Yeah, you know, the threat of having to 97 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:55,079 be in Austin for a year for a trial, I think is one that 98 00:07:55,160 --> 00:08:01,079 might since the yeah, yeah exactly, all right, Mark helped me kind 99 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:05,199 of way the politics of this, I mean, we are definitely seeing, 100 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:13,839 um from you know, the Paxson segment of the gop um a push to 101 00:08:13,399 --> 00:08:18,600 you know, make kind of quickly get past this effort and you know, 102 00:08:18,639 --> 00:08:22,600 an idea of um, you know, really pushing the argument that this is 103 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,000 driven by Democrats that this is, you know, driven by the liberal House 104 00:08:26,079 --> 00:08:31,240 and things like that. How much is that push do you think, Wayne 105 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,360 on the people who will make these rules and the people who will ultimately in 106 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:41,159 the Senate, you know, have the future of Paxson's time and office in 107 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:46,279 their hands. As the senators look at this rules framework that they will craft 108 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:52,519 next week. Patrick's mentioned of the of the summary judgment framework is exactly what 109 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,360 Buzzby wants. As in a court and let us say twelve times, as 110 00:08:56,399 --> 00:09:01,840 you guys have mentioned in prior tribes that I've been glad to work my way 111 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:05,960 through. This is not a court of law. This is a completely political 112 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:09,039 environment. I mean, yes, you still might have witnesses, you still 113 00:09:09,039 --> 00:09:11,960 have evidence, you still have a decision to be made, etc. Someone 114 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:16,120 presides like a judge, that's Stan Patrick. But it is a purely political 115 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:20,440 environment and within that realm, these senators. Maybe the first thing that they'll 116 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,960 have to weigh if they get this is the chance to simply say, you 117 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:28,519 know what, we're throwing this out on its face. But what Buzzby told 118 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:33,039 me was that he would like for a rule to be crafted or the thirty 119 00:09:33,039 --> 00:09:37,840 one senators before we even get to the months or possibly almost a year of 120 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,960 excruciating trial activity in Austin, as a judge would do. Lawyers would perhaps 121 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:50,000 smile for a summary judgment, which for the uninitiated essentially says we're asking for 122 00:09:50,159 --> 00:09:54,039 ruling that says this doesn't even meet the bar for going to trial. It 123 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:58,879 is something that deserves to be tossed for lack of merit. There's no promise 124 00:09:58,919 --> 00:10:01,639 to that would happen in It might not be the smartest optics in the world 125 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:07,200 if it did. Even if there are Republican senators who would say right now 126 00:10:07,919 --> 00:10:11,039 that they probably intend to equit. That's even the tournament, and they do 127 00:10:11,159 --> 00:10:16,200 not intend to eject Paxson from office, they have to think long and hard 128 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,919 about what it will look like to toss this thing out on its ear without 129 00:10:20,919 --> 00:10:24,240 even having the trial. The positive the grassroots would love it. You know 130 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:26,320 this, this got exactly what it wanted. It wasn't worth the paper it 131 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:31,480 was written on. But to the mushy middle, to independence, to whatever 132 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,440 they might say, hmm, what did they fear from a trial? So 133 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:41,320 avoid steps taken to avoid the trial are not without risk, right right, 134 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,840 Patrick? You know we we we started this conversation, or I started this 135 00:10:46,879 --> 00:10:52,679 conversation with a kind of rundown of the very complicated politics of the Republican Party 136 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:56,320 in Texas. Right now, can you kind of set the picture for us 137 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:05,720 of what can Paxson's relationship with the Senate has been and is over these last 138 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:07,120 few years. I mean, I know he used to serve of course his 139 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:11,799 wife is a member of that Senate, But what is that dynamic there and 140 00:11:11,879 --> 00:11:16,919 how might that play into this? Yeah, that's a good question. As 141 00:11:16,919 --> 00:11:20,759 you pointed out, he has some very direct ties to the Senate. Of 142 00:11:20,799 --> 00:11:24,360 course his wife serves there. You know, I think there are probably some 143 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:28,799 other state senators that he's more personally friendly with, so you have to take 144 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:33,679 that into consideration. There were some state senators, a couple state senators who 145 00:11:33,759 --> 00:11:39,840 got involved in his re election campaign last year against him. I believe Senator 146 00:11:39,919 --> 00:11:43,600 Charles Schwartner from Georgetown endorsed George P. Bush, who was running against Ken 147 00:11:43,639 --> 00:11:48,720 Paxton in the primary. Last year. You had another senator who was a 148 00:11:48,759 --> 00:11:52,279 House member at the time, May's Middleton, who was a top donor to 149 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:56,480 Matt Krouse when he ran against Ken Paxton in the primary, and then Louie 150 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:01,080 Gomert when Matt Krouse dropped out and Louie Gobert ran again Paxixton in the primary. 151 00:12:01,279 --> 00:12:05,759 So some of these guys have you know, more unique personal political history 152 00:12:05,799 --> 00:12:09,639 with Paxxton. We shouldn't, of course, we shouldn't just assume because they 153 00:12:09,639 --> 00:12:15,960 opposed him in a political campaign that they are necessarily inclined to um, you 154 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,720 know, oppose him in a Senate trial. We should certainly give them the 155 00:12:18,759 --> 00:12:22,840 benefit of the doubt. But you know, that's of course political history that 156 00:12:22,919 --> 00:12:26,960 is worth noting when it comes to the lieutenant governor, who doesn't have a 157 00:12:26,039 --> 00:12:30,759 vote in the trial, but acts as the judge in the trial. The 158 00:12:30,799 --> 00:12:35,159 lieutenant governor, you know, ultimately did endorse Paxton for reelection in his primary 159 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:37,519 runoff last year. Uh, you know, there was a little bit of 160 00:12:37,919 --> 00:12:45,240 question beforehand how committed Patrick was or how interested Patrick wasn't seeing Ken Paxton make 161 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:48,559 it through that primary. But Patrick, you know, you mentioned are reporting 162 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:52,759 at the time. But Patrick seemed to put that to bed when he formally 163 00:12:52,759 --> 00:12:56,919 got behind Paxton in the runoff. And so, you know, those are 164 00:12:56,919 --> 00:13:01,639 just some of the political relationships that that may come into play here. Mark 165 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:09,200 I wonder if what you think about, if what's going on with President Trump 166 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:16,159 right now affects this in any way. You know, Trump of course spoke 167 00:13:16,159 --> 00:13:20,840 out against the idea of impeachment the morning of impeachment in the House. He 168 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:26,720 is of course now otherwise occupied, you know, dealing with his own legal 169 00:13:26,879 --> 00:13:33,200 issues, and I don't know how closely he'll be paying attention to this trial 170 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:39,440 or this case. And also I don't know how much what's going on in 171 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:43,679 Florida right now sucks up the kind of oxygen around this. Do you think 172 00:13:43,799 --> 00:13:52,000 there is a Trump element to this issue, to this debate over the next 173 00:13:52,039 --> 00:13:58,039 few months. People pay attention to the news, and they notice things happening, 174 00:13:58,039 --> 00:14:01,440 and sometimes there are things that harmonize, there are things that seem to 175 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:07,120 be traveling on parallel tracks. Without regard to the merit of either of these 176 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:11,480 observations, I can say that the largely conservative listenership that I have is of 177 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:16,879 a mind that Trump is being persecuted politically, that even if there are some 178 00:14:16,879 --> 00:14:20,840 things he should have done with those stupid documents, that having this rise to 179 00:14:20,879 --> 00:14:26,200 the level of this indictment is insane and it's a politicized witch hunted down there. 180 00:14:26,279 --> 00:14:28,080 So there's note number one, the note that sings in harmony here. 181 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:33,159 For Texas conservatives, they take a look at what's happening to Paxman, and 182 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:37,720 they view a phenomenon that is similar. They take a look at a Texas 183 00:14:37,799 --> 00:14:43,679 house where sixty I believe it was right, sixty Republicans found a reason to 184 00:14:43,759 --> 00:14:46,799 impeach him. And of these sixty, how many of them have been spending 185 00:14:46,799 --> 00:14:52,440 the previous weeks or months or years decrying the horrible ethics of Ken Paxton. 186 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:56,919 The answer is virtually none of them. And yet all of a sudden day 187 00:14:56,039 --> 00:15:00,960 feeling throws a hissy fit over the three point five million dollars ettlement doesn't want 188 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,159 to pay it, and all of a sudden we get a forty eight hour 189 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:07,399 impeachment rush. You can't not notice that. It doesn't mean you have to 190 00:15:07,399 --> 00:15:13,080 buy into it and presume that it's exactly the same phenomenon one involving Trump, 191 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:18,440 one involving Paxton. But there are certain shared characteristics noticed by many. Yeah, 192 00:15:18,519 --> 00:15:24,360 so let's just fly forward in the hypothetical world. Let's say, in 193 00:15:24,919 --> 00:15:31,000 you know, early September, the Senate votes to remove Ken Paxton from office. 194 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:35,399 On that you know, Tuesday Morning Show or whatever. How angry are 195 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:41,440 your listeners at the Senate for doing this or are they angry? Okay, 196 00:15:41,879 --> 00:15:46,200 the short answer is they likely will be. There's only one thing that will 197 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:52,759 prevent you know, flaming torches in the street metaphorically speaking, and that is 198 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:58,919 it because perfectly phrased question, because let's say it is September. It's kind 199 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:00,279 of funny though, that'll be a brief trial, won't it, Because I 200 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:04,120 have started on August, Judia, Please God let it be September rather than 201 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:08,720 you know, July of twenty four. There's only one thing that will quell 202 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:14,799 the kind of righteous indignation that what you describe would would yield. And that 203 00:16:14,919 --> 00:16:18,480 is if the trial, which we will all hang on with bated breath, 204 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:26,000 if the house managers and the attorneys do such a compelling job of painting a 205 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:33,639 picture of corruption, mouthfeasance, and abuse of office that even the Paxton fan 206 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:38,120 base has a percentage that says, wow, we love Ken, but that 207 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:42,639 was bad. So what's the likelihood of that happening? I don't know. 208 00:16:42,919 --> 00:16:48,159 As you guys in past Tribe casts have observed, there's very little in this 209 00:16:48,279 --> 00:16:52,840 that hasn't been swirling around in the ether for in some cases with the securities 210 00:16:52,879 --> 00:16:56,200 broad stuffs. It's twenty fifteen. This is all. I mean, I 211 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,720 don't want to call all of it old news, but the fact of the 212 00:16:59,759 --> 00:17:02,840 matter is that some of the things in the articles of impeachment have worked their 213 00:17:02,879 --> 00:17:07,119 way through the Texas court system and yielded nothing. The whistleblowers, oh, 214 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:11,720 these whistleblowers who were so up in arms about something, they took their complaints 215 00:17:11,799 --> 00:17:18,839 right to the FBI. FBI investigated it once again yielded nothing. And the 216 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:23,000 voters throughout this entire process have ruled on two occasions that they overwhelmingly want Ken 217 00:17:23,039 --> 00:17:26,319 Paxton to be the attorney General. So it's going to have to be a 218 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:32,799 crazy turn of events in that trial to have the Paxton fan base say grudgingly 219 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:37,720 that his ejection was deserved. So, Patrick, what are you watching for 220 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:42,680 on Tuesday? Well, first of all, I'm just watching to see how 221 00:17:42,799 --> 00:17:47,759 these rules are proposed, if it's going to even be a public proceeding, 222 00:17:48,559 --> 00:17:51,640 Like we reported in our story today, I mean, there's just not a 223 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:56,279 lot of not a lot known about this rule. Committee rules, committees, 224 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:00,279 deliberations, you know, we know the member on the committee. We don't 225 00:18:00,319 --> 00:18:04,839 know if they've met, We don't know, you know, what the contours 226 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:08,519 of their conversations have been like. And so I'll be just watching Tuesday to 227 00:18:08,519 --> 00:18:12,519 see how we learn about what the proposed rules are. And I should note 228 00:18:12,519 --> 00:18:18,160 in the resolution that the Senate pass that creates this rules process, it just 229 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,279 said they have to present the rules on Tuesday to the full Senate. It 230 00:18:21,519 --> 00:18:26,119 didn't say they necessarily have to vote on them. So I'll just be watching 231 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,880 some of the basic things on Tuesday, like, you know, will we 232 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,759 get a public view of the rules, will they be voted on, because 233 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:38,119 you know, once they're voted on, that effectively friggers the decision by Dan 234 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:42,480 Patrick to pick a trial start date sometime between then and August twenty eight. 235 00:18:42,839 --> 00:18:47,039 So I'll just watching the basic things, all right. Let's pause for a 236 00:18:47,079 --> 00:18:52,480 moment here. From our sponsors, Texas BioMed pioneers and shares scientific breakthroughs that 237 00:18:52,599 --> 00:18:56,799 protect our communities. Health starts with science, Health starts at Texas BioMed. 238 00:18:57,279 --> 00:19:04,640 Visit tx BioMed org for more. And Texas twenty thirty six building long term 239 00:19:04,759 --> 00:19:11,079 data driven strategies to secure Texas's prosperity through our bi centennial and beyond. Find 240 00:19:11,079 --> 00:19:15,680 out more at Texas twenty thirty six dot org. Okay, now, let's 241 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:21,400 look at the other thing that's been causing a lot of fighting among the Republicans 242 00:19:21,519 --> 00:19:26,799 this week. Property taxes. It another week has passed without much visible progress 243 00:19:26,839 --> 00:19:30,039 on reaching a compromise between the House and the Senate. You know, the 244 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:34,440 two competing proposals, as listeners of this show will know, is whether the 245 00:19:34,519 --> 00:19:40,039 House or whether the Legislature should spend all of the money that they've set aside 246 00:19:40,039 --> 00:19:47,240 for property tax reduction on essentially compressing lowering property tax rates, or whether some 247 00:19:47,319 --> 00:19:52,920 of that money should be pulled aside to specifically target homeowners and increase their savings 248 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:59,400 from property taxes is a little bit more than other property owners in the state. 249 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:03,799 The A dramatic action we've seen around this this week is Abbot's vetos, 250 00:20:03,839 --> 00:20:07,359 which I mentioned earlier in the show, where he vetoed I think eight bills 251 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:11,599 this week, seven of which by Republicans signing. In his veto note, 252 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:15,920 you know, this bill is not as important as property taxes, and we 253 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:22,599 can reconsider this idea once property taxes are past. Patrick, what's the strategy 254 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:29,119 Here's what's Abbot hoping to accomplish with this well big picture that you know, 255 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:33,240 as we've discussed before as an almost academic matter, the governor, you know, 256 00:20:33,799 --> 00:20:40,240 often finds himself wanting for tools at his disposal to influence the legislative process, 257 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:42,759 right, I mean, you know, it's not a position that has 258 00:20:42,799 --> 00:20:48,039 a lot of ways of influencing the legislative process formally other than just using the 259 00:20:48,079 --> 00:20:49,519 bully pulpit. So he's trying to leverage the one tool, you know, 260 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,279 one of the few tools he has at this point, which is the threat 261 00:20:52,319 --> 00:20:56,200 of a veto. He can buy Sunday, he has to either sign or 262 00:20:56,319 --> 00:21:00,920 veto bills or if he doesn't sign them, they still become law. So 263 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,160 he's trying to leverage one of the few, you know, formal tools at 264 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,480 his disposal would try to influence the legislative process. At this point, he's 265 00:21:07,519 --> 00:21:11,079 trying to wield the threat of a veto and the following through a vetoing some 266 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:17,000 bills to try to coax a compromise out of the House and Senate on property 267 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:22,160 taxes, something that I think is politically you know, going on. At 268 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,440 the same time, here is he he has seemed in recent days to cool 269 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:30,400 on his allegiance to the House in this standoff. We saw the House immediately 270 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,640 pass what he wanted in his special session call. He came out that that 271 00:21:33,799 --> 00:21:37,839 evening and said, the House did what I want it. Senate needs to 272 00:21:37,839 --> 00:21:41,079 get this to my desk and we can all go home, basically. And 273 00:21:41,519 --> 00:21:47,319 in recent days he's been far less firmly on the House's side as it has 274 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:51,359 instead been calling for a House Senate compromise, and is you know, in 275 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,920 my view of it, kind of been leaving the House out to dry after 276 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,160 firmly siding with them early on. And so you know, I think he's 277 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:02,559 he's had some political missteps in this and probably the past week or so here 278 00:22:03,319 --> 00:22:07,160 and now you know, we're obviously at the point where he's trying to threaten 279 00:22:07,319 --> 00:22:11,400 and take drastic measures by be doing bills. All right, Mark, I 280 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,480 did a temperature check with you on impeachment. Now I'm going to do one 281 00:22:14,559 --> 00:22:19,880 on property taxes. What's the what's the feeling of the listeners on homestead exemptions, 282 00:22:21,039 --> 00:22:26,480 compression things like that? Is that something that there's a lot of debate 283 00:22:26,519 --> 00:22:33,039 over? Is there is that something that even the average texting understands the okay, 284 00:22:33,039 --> 00:22:40,319 define average, but define average that that's going to be probably not giving 285 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:45,000 credit, especially to the kind listenership that graces me every day paying attention to 286 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:51,319 the issues up to a certain point. What's the overarching sentiment is how arcane 287 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,440 so much of this is. I know, deep in the weeds, it 288 00:22:53,480 --> 00:23:00,480 really does matter issues of compression of what benefits homeowners versus what benefits This is 289 00:23:00,559 --> 00:23:04,240 the shades of difference between what Patrick and the Senate might want in abbot and 290 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:11,079 the House might want. But above the din of all of that is a 291 00:23:11,279 --> 00:23:14,359 clarion call from just about every listener I have, not all of them. 292 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:19,160 Republican is guys, pull your heads out and do something. Texas for years 293 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:25,079 has gotten away with this reputation as a low tax state, a tax haven, 294 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:26,880 which in some ways we are. We don't have state income tax, 295 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:33,960 but property taxes are brutal here. They're absolutely punitive, and ultimately, I 296 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:40,559 think most listeners and most average Texans are very bottom line oriented. I don't 297 00:23:40,599 --> 00:23:45,920 think that there'll be a lot of people up in arms when one idea prevails 298 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,599 over the other. They just would say, for God's sake, give us 299 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:53,079 some form of relief. Yeah. Yeah, I was gonna say, I 300 00:23:53,079 --> 00:23:57,240 feel like, you know, not that I'm having necessarily having these conversations with 301 00:23:57,319 --> 00:24:00,720 these Texans every single day, but I gotta imagine at this point the average 302 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,759 Texan just frustrated that there's there's no progress. And I feel like to the 303 00:24:04,799 --> 00:24:11,880 average maybe Republican leading voter, they're willing to stomach some intra party sniping on 304 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:17,680 social issues and things where there may not be Republican unanimity across the board. 305 00:24:17,759 --> 00:24:23,119 But I think it seems like a damaging appearance that Texas Republicans can't find compromise 306 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:30,319 on issues where they're generally united even which kind of leads to my big picture 307 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,960 question that I wanted to ask Mark, is just what is going on with 308 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:38,359 They're Republican leaders in Texas right now, why can they not get along on 309 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:47,559 anything? Okay, this will be by its nature simplistic, but it works 310 00:24:47,599 --> 00:24:52,160 as an overall model. Within the Republican Party. You can say there are 311 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:57,599 factions that are what you might call the grassroots, the staunch conservatives, the 312 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:03,519 Trumpian pack stone on in. You know that everybody knows what I'm talking about. 313 00:25:03,799 --> 00:25:08,480 There's also the slice of the Republican pie that is a little more establishment 314 00:25:10,079 --> 00:25:15,319 might have liked McCain and Paul Ryan over Trump, might like Dave Feelan over 315 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:23,640 anyone of Dan Patrick's Senate Republicans as a group, we are used to doing 316 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:27,880 ideological battle with the left, with liberals, with Democrats. That's baked into 317 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:32,160 our daily lives, and there is a certain almost comfort zone to that. 318 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:33,039 It's like, well, we're on the right, they're on the left. 319 00:25:33,319 --> 00:25:37,440 Let's settle up, let's see what we gotta do. But within the Republican 320 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:42,680 Party there is a passion and a sharpness to this that exists for the following 321 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:49,759 reason. The Republican Party since twenty fifteen, when Trump and Melania came down, 322 00:25:49,799 --> 00:25:53,720 that escalator has largely been taken over by a kind of a bold, 323 00:25:53,799 --> 00:26:02,759 unapologetic, grassroots populist conservatism which has proven in enormously popular in the country, 324 00:26:03,559 --> 00:26:10,960 in the Republican America and in Republican Taxas. This has driven establishment moderate Republicans 325 00:26:11,279 --> 00:26:15,839 absolutely insane. They can't believe that there go along to get along three yards 326 00:26:15,839 --> 00:26:19,000 on a cloud of dust, give us ten years will solve this. No 327 00:26:19,079 --> 00:26:23,880 longer finds favor with the public. So to wrap up my really long answer. 328 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:30,000 What we have here as a battle for what direction the party is going 329 00:26:30,039 --> 00:26:34,839 to take, And in the Paxton battle itself is completely emblematic of this. 330 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:41,279 Dade Feeland and Ken Paxton hold each other in abysmally low regard, and it's 331 00:26:41,319 --> 00:26:45,759 mostly because of the dichotomy that I've just mentioned. Ken Paxton represents everything that 332 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker Feeland thinks is extreme and unsavory about those Trumpian Republicans, and Dade Feeland 333 00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:02,720 represents to Ken Paxton everything that is squishy and moderate and weak. And so 334 00:27:02,799 --> 00:27:07,359 as that battle takes place, that somebody's going to win, somebody's gonna lose. 335 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:11,400 Not that not that the Republican Party will unanimously reflect either one or the 336 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,640 other, but lately the victories have been racked up by the more conservative side 337 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:21,359 of Republican taxes, and I don't see that changing in the near future. 338 00:27:22,839 --> 00:27:27,519 Patrick do agree with that. I mean, there is definitely some ideological components 339 00:27:27,519 --> 00:27:32,599 to this, and the House versus Senate fights, you know, date back 340 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:38,119 for years. And I also got to think that there's some personalities here right, 341 00:27:38,279 --> 00:27:41,279 Like, really, what you need is someone to just come in and 342 00:27:41,319 --> 00:27:44,880 try to take the temperature down and say, hey, look, we're all 343 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:49,880 Republicans, we all like tax cuts. This shouldn't be that hard if we 344 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,079 can just be nice to each other for a week. No one seems to 345 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,640 be doing that right now. Patrick, Yeah, I think Mark did a 346 00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,440 good job of explaining how this fits into the broader Republican ecosystem right now. 347 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,640 So maybe I'll address the three big personalities that play here and why it's maybe 348 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,000 different than past sessions, the big three, the governor, the Lieutenant governor, 349 00:28:08,039 --> 00:28:11,960 the House Speaker. You know, it's it's in my belief that the 350 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:22,000 three of them entered this legislative cycle with more individual self adsuredness and the feeling 351 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:26,359 of an individual mandate than previously. And we just came off of a statewide 352 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,960 reelection cycle where the two statewide officials in that group, Dan Patrick and Greg 353 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:34,720 Abbott won by probably better than expected margins, I think at least ten points 354 00:28:34,759 --> 00:28:38,559 each. So, you know, each of those statewide officials came into this 355 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:44,240 legislative cycle, you know, fresh off of the feeling of an overwhelming mandate 356 00:28:44,279 --> 00:28:48,160 by the voters of Texas. And then you have Dave feeling in his second 357 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,960 session as speaker, really starting you know, going into this session starting to 358 00:28:52,039 --> 00:28:56,799 hit his stride, I think, and having a lot more confidence after his 359 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,880 first session. I mean, he was able to get reelected as Speaker by 360 00:29:00,039 --> 00:29:03,079 with only a few, you know, a few dissenting votes. And then, 361 00:29:03,279 --> 00:29:06,640 you know, in addition to that feeling of each of them having such 362 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:12,440 a strong mandate individually, we saw them start charting priorities that below the top 363 00:29:12,519 --> 00:29:17,640 two or three issues were kind of divergent. Um. You know, obviously 364 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,400 they all agreed, all three of us want property tax, really sure, 365 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,680 all three of us want to secure the border. But you saw Abbot and 366 00:29:22,839 --> 00:29:29,240 Patrick and feeling take ownership individually of priorities that weren't always in alignment with one. 367 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:33,279 Another great example this at least going into the session, was Patrick's overwhelming 368 00:29:33,319 --> 00:29:37,359 emphasis on the grid, which for the longest time, even Abbott couldn't, 369 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:38,759 you know, come out and say, we still need to, you know, 370 00:29:38,799 --> 00:29:44,839 reform the grid. You had feeling start prioritizing, uh, you know, 371 00:29:45,039 --> 00:29:48,599 bills that were pretty far off politically from what Abbot and Patrick have been 372 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,440 championing over the years. You know, whether it was you know, some 373 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:57,079 of the healthcare related bills, criminal justice reform related bills, and So that's 374 00:29:57,079 --> 00:30:02,039 just to say it was kind of a two stage process going into this legislative 375 00:30:02,079 --> 00:30:03,880 session, where we saw each three of these guys feel more of a mandate 376 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,680 than ever before for their agenda from the voters of Texas. And then we 377 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:12,319 saw them chart out priorities that beyond those first two or three issues really started 378 00:30:12,359 --> 00:30:15,240 clashing, and so I think that set them up on a bit of a 379 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,400 collision course this session in a way that we haven't seen before. Yeah, 380 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:22,559 market's interesting. You know, when I when I came to the Tribune, 381 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,640 the fights between the House and Senate were over things like the bathroom bill, 382 00:30:26,319 --> 00:30:32,079 and you know, poverty taxes were sailing through. And now we're seeing you 383 00:30:32,079 --> 00:30:37,559 know, the more socially conservative things the you know, related to LGBTQ issues 384 00:30:37,599 --> 00:30:41,480 and things like that getting through fairly easily, but fighting over the property taxes. 385 00:30:41,519 --> 00:30:47,960 It's it's interesting to see how the shifts have have happened here in these 386 00:30:48,039 --> 00:30:51,599 last few years. It is and I think the one thing that can be 387 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:53,559 for somebody that's covered stuff as much as you have and has been on the 388 00:30:53,559 --> 00:30:59,599 beat as long as Patrick has, one thing that can always be reliably counted 389 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:07,400 upon is the power of the public will to nudge the prevailing results in a 390 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:12,599 certain direction. The gender wars SB fourteen and fifteen, gender stuff in women's 391 00:31:12,599 --> 00:31:18,680 sports, and stopping the various procedures for minors. This was something dan Patrick 392 00:31:18,759 --> 00:31:23,799 felt very very strongly about that Dade feeling absolutely did not feel strongly about at 393 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:32,759 all, and Governor Abbott wanted to feel exactly as strongly as would benefit him 394 00:31:32,799 --> 00:31:36,559 politically. He told me, and that sounds unkind I don't mean it to 395 00:31:36,599 --> 00:31:40,559 me. I was having conversation because I'm very energized by such things. And 396 00:31:40,559 --> 00:31:42,160 I'd have him on the show, maybe like a year ago, and he 397 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,160 said, listen, I think and just Indian just drove him crazy. That 398 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,839 every day to Santis would do something and get huge applause for it and everybody 399 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,279 would look at him go well. And he told me one point on one 400 00:31:52,279 --> 00:31:55,440 of those occasions, he said, I'm going to do something, Mark, 401 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,519 I'm gonna do something like it in the coming days. It'll be just the 402 00:31:57,599 --> 00:32:01,880 same as a state that these procedures. And what it was is some stupid 403 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:07,160 letter from the Department of Family the Services Health Family Services that essentially says we 404 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,519 consider this to be child abused. Well, what a lovely conceptual thing to 405 00:32:10,559 --> 00:32:15,039 do, but it was a far cry from actually having a law that says 406 00:32:15,359 --> 00:32:19,759 we don't do this. So the governor took a look at the temperature and 407 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,039 wisely, I believe, said this is a bill that I will sign, 408 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:29,240 and he did. All right. Well, we will see how public opinion 409 00:32:29,519 --> 00:32:36,000 drives the action on impeachment and on property taxes in these in these coming weeks. 410 00:32:36,279 --> 00:32:39,319 Thank you, Mark really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you Pasture joining us, 411 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,640 and thank you to our producer Justin. We'll talk to y'all next week 412 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:53,920 that you just have to join us in Houston June twenty second for the last 413 00:32:53,960 --> 00:33:00,000 event in our continuing series dedicated to recapping the twenty twenty three legislative session. 414 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:05,400 Learn more an RSVP at Texas Tribune dot org. Slash Events