1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,319 And it hits me, Oh my gosh, this is at triangle. You 2 00:00:03,359 --> 00:00:07,080 know, there's explanation for everything that occurred in the randallsham pars and consid it 3 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:12,080 doesn't involve aliens at all. It was completely silent. It comes right over 4 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:17,960 our heads. Classic Vice also really standing into clearing. He turned over to 5 00:00:18,039 --> 00:00:20,559 my father and held his hand, and he looked in his eyes and said, 6 00:00:20,559 --> 00:00:29,000 we're not alone. Welcome to podcast UFO for our live show. We're 7 00:00:29,039 --> 00:00:34,240 live every Wednesday at eight pm Eastern Standard Time on the Dark Matter Radio Network. 8 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:40,079 Please remember to visit the website podcast ufo dot com for past episodes, 9 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:44,479 blogs, and forums. During the show, feel free to participate live in 10 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,920 our chat room, and don't forget to like us on our very active Facebook 11 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:52,640 page. Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm Martin Willishure host. 12 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:58,039 We have Alejandro Rojas coming up in just a minute, and our guest tonight 13 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:04,879 is Don Ecker, seasoned UFO researcher, and we're going to be maybe calling 14 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:11,480 some people out, maybe talking about some hoaxers and some people that hang on 15 00:01:11,519 --> 00:01:15,319 to old beliefs. I don't know what we're going to get into, but 16 00:01:15,439 --> 00:01:18,359 I have a feeling it's going to be something like that. I want to 17 00:01:18,359 --> 00:01:21,159 thank all our support us for supporting the show. If you want to listen 18 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,200 to the full show and you're not listening live, you can listen to the 19 00:01:23,239 --> 00:01:27,159 podcast for one hour for free, and you can support us for only a 20 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:32,680 dollar or more per month and all that informations on podcast UFO. I'm going 21 00:01:32,719 --> 00:01:37,280 to say a couple of shoutouts to some new people that are five dollars a 22 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:42,560 month or more. And there is a Paul he has no last name registered. 23 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:49,840 Thank you Paul, Jeff and thank you Jeff. And also Justin Brown 24 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,000 it said I could use his whole name. He's from Halifax, Nova Scochi 25 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,400 and I think he just had a sighting. He sent me something. Steve 26 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:05,079 Oh and Dan and Bill they're at the tendall level. Thank you so much. 27 00:02:05,159 --> 00:02:07,800 And so is Michael d. From Michael Douglas. He said, I 28 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:14,319 can use his whole name, and he's supporting us from Tasmania. And there's 29 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:20,000 a Justin B and a Unified Field Radio, Thank you both, and a 30 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:24,479 Wayne Oh and a Shane. You guys have bellied up to the bar for 31 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:29,159 twenty five dollars a month. Subscription and thanks a lot, and you're joining 32 00:02:29,159 --> 00:02:32,159 my good friend Phil who's been there from the beginning. And I am very 33 00:02:32,159 --> 00:02:37,360 grateful to you all, and actually grateful to every single listener. And that 34 00:02:37,599 --> 00:02:42,280 is actually enough of my nonsense and it's time to bring on Alejandro Rojas. 35 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,319 How are you doing, Alejandro? I am doing good. You ready for 36 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:51,360 some of my nonsense? Absolutely? All right? Yeah? Yeah? So 37 00:02:51,479 --> 00:02:54,039 are you're feeling better these days? Yes, much better than I was a 38 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:59,800 week ago when I was feeling yecky and my temmy was feeling a little gurgli 39 00:03:00,159 --> 00:03:05,840 this time. But yeah you sound you sound chipper today I should good. 40 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:10,159 Yeah, that's good. Yeah. So I was noticing because I get you 41 00:03:10,199 --> 00:03:15,000 know, UFO Google alerts, and I was noticing there was there was some 42 00:03:15,039 --> 00:03:19,919 things going on this week. Well, this is what's funny. It's the 43 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:24,400 UK. Really papers have gone Nutso they've gone sronkers. That's right, it 44 00:03:24,479 --> 00:03:29,599 is UK. Yeah, they all of their papers are posting like they're trying 45 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,560 to outdo each other with UFO stories. Most of their stories are really crappy. 46 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,159 Yes, um, you know, I posted one on the Facebook page 47 00:03:38,199 --> 00:03:42,439 because Peggy's under the weather right now, so I've been working on the Facebook 48 00:03:42,439 --> 00:03:46,159 page, and I did get a lot of lashback from one that was it 49 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:50,879 was I knew it was kind of ridiculous, but it got a lot of 50 00:03:50,879 --> 00:03:54,400 conversations going, yeah, they're usually ridiculous, and I shouldn't say they're all 51 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:59,080 crappy because a lot of times, luckily that they do seem to monitor our 52 00:03:59,159 --> 00:04:03,199 site and they'll post stories regarding things that we write about. But when we 53 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:08,039 go through the news today, I'm not even using one of those stories because 54 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,199 even though on our front page we do go through the headlines and you can 55 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:15,240 see some of the headlines with UFO stories, you'll notice that their stories are 56 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:21,759 all kind of ridiculous. They're they're really poor videos or hoax videos. Okay, 57 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:26,519 so that's great. You got some new news. So that's not from 58 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:30,439 the UK, it's actually news. Yeah, right, so let's have it. 59 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,839 This first one, I just wanted to mention it's kind of an honorable 60 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:39,879 mention because it's not necessarily UFOs, but it's an Area fifty one and this 61 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,959 video is so much fun. So there was this guy, Glenn Campbell, 62 00:04:44,199 --> 00:04:46,839 and in the nineties he was a big Area fifty one researcher. This guy's 63 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:53,680 really interesting. He doesn't own a home. He's a homeless person and he's 64 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:56,680 very proud of that. He always lives out of his car. He used 65 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:01,000 to live near Area fifty one and get take video and trying to bug the 66 00:05:01,199 --> 00:05:05,680 security guards and stuff like that, and did a lot of stuff on Area 67 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:10,560 fifty one. Had some really good information and photographs and stuff like that. 68 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,680 But it's been a while since he's done this sort of work. He's still 69 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:15,959 homeless, he says, but now he's an author and he's doing a lot 70 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,079 of other stuff. Well, he went back to Area fifty one to take 71 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:25,319 some video just for old times sakes, he says, and that he got 72 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:30,720 harassed by the security guards, and the video is really funny. So he's 73 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:35,360 there and he's on he says, you know, non you know, he's 74 00:05:35,439 --> 00:05:40,120 not on the base. So he's on this side of the signs, and 75 00:05:40,519 --> 00:05:44,560 you see this truck and as soon as he puts his camera on the truck, 76 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,160 the truck kind of backs up and hides behind this bush. And it's 77 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:51,800 really ridiculous. Like I wrote in my story about it, it reminds me 78 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:55,480 of the cats. You know, how a cat will kind of hide its 79 00:05:55,560 --> 00:06:00,199 head and think that it's hidden and you can see its entire body. It's 80 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:02,920 that sort of thing. So it's really silly. So then he decided to 81 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:08,079 trick him and he went and he parked and he walked up this hill so 82 00:06:08,199 --> 00:06:12,120 and they sure enough followed, but then he backtracked on the other side of 83 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,120 the hill, came around behind these guys in their truck and he's filming and 84 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:18,839 he's kind of giggling as he's sneaking up on him, and he gets like 85 00:06:19,079 --> 00:06:23,959 really close to the truck. He's practically right in front of the truck before 86 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,040 they notice. They're just kind of blabbing away. It looks like holding a 87 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,920 conversation and talking when he comes around, and finally they spot him and one 88 00:06:30,959 --> 00:06:33,160 of them jumps out of the truck and says, hey, you want me 89 00:06:33,199 --> 00:06:36,240 to take that camera and he runs away and he's like, you can't take 90 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:41,759 my camera, and he said that he kept running and they went their way 91 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:45,399 and he went his. But the video is just hilarious. It should have 92 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,879 up any Hill soundtrack behind it. But it's really good. I think that 93 00:06:48,959 --> 00:06:51,879 people will have a lot of fun and you can check it out and you 94 00:06:51,959 --> 00:06:57,800 get a close look at those cool trucks that they drive that you see up 95 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,879 on the hill when you go to visit the roads going to the area fifty 96 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,120 one. So that is for the listener. That video will be linked right 97 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:08,800 in our show notes, which we'll bring you over to Open Minds dot tv 98 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:13,240 and you can watch that. And I'm multipard to watching that myself. Yeah, 99 00:07:13,319 --> 00:07:15,279 it's a lot of fun. You've got to see it. You love 100 00:07:15,439 --> 00:07:20,639 you'll love it. Yeah. Otherwise, in UFO news, actually we wrote 101 00:07:20,759 --> 00:07:26,639 a lot of stuff about triangles. There's been a lot of triangular UFOs scene 102 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:30,360 in the news lately, and so this is kind of interesting. So the 103 00:07:30,439 --> 00:07:34,360 first story I wanted to mention is this gentleman with a military background. He 104 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:41,519 says that he was formerly a Navy rescue and so he knows aircraft warning lights. 105 00:07:41,839 --> 00:07:46,079 But he had seen some strange lights at about eight pm on June eleventh 106 00:07:46,439 --> 00:07:49,079 that he could not explain. He got a little bit of video of them, 107 00:07:49,079 --> 00:07:54,120 and you see these three lights that are in a triangular formation, kind 108 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:59,959 of blinking strangely, kind of an odd video. It's a pretty short video, 109 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:05,120 but he was able to get a video of this, and he's just 110 00:08:05,199 --> 00:08:07,680 saying that you know, he thinks it's really weird. He doesn't know what 111 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:13,439 it was. And this was in North Carolina, and the story that Roger 112 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:20,000 Marsh had written about this, he noted that he had contacted Sanford Davis, 113 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:24,720 who is the mof On Carolina North Carolina Investigator, who looked at it and 114 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:26,839 he had closed it as an unknown he couldn't figure out what it was, 115 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:33,240 and that there was another sighting soon after, just a few days later in 116 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:39,799 the same area. Davis suggested that perhaps it was military and some kind of 117 00:08:39,879 --> 00:08:45,519 black project, perhaps a variation of the Astra TR three B, which there 118 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,480 is no evidence exists. But it's kind of a mythology out there. But 119 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:54,159 still, you know, it's certainly possible and there are I know, for 120 00:08:54,200 --> 00:09:00,240 a fact, we have found inklings of triangular shaped secret aircraft that is out 121 00:09:00,279 --> 00:09:03,960 there. So there's something, whether or not it's an unconventional in nature that 122 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:11,799 to be foreseen. However, there were another couple of triangular sightings that Roger 123 00:09:11,879 --> 00:09:16,399 had written about it open mindstat TV. One of the more recent ones was 124 00:09:16,759 --> 00:09:22,279 around Kansas City, and this was a very bright light that someone had seen 125 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:30,080 on August fourteenth. It was coming towards them it was going slowly and it 126 00:09:30,279 --> 00:09:33,879 was or it was moving fast and very close to the ground. So this 127 00:09:33,919 --> 00:09:37,759 person says, at first it was in the direction of the airport, so 128 00:09:37,799 --> 00:09:41,600 they didn't think much of it. Then they parked because it looked like this 129 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:46,240 was a airplane that was about to crash, so they parked to take a 130 00:09:46,279 --> 00:09:48,639 look at it, and it got closer and closer, and the light actually 131 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:54,519 zoomed overhead, and that's when this person could see it was actually three lights 132 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:58,559 in a triangular formation. So that was kind of a weird story. Now 133 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:03,679 due if that one in particular made any noise, great question. It did 134 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,159 not make any noise. That's why they thought it was a plane crashing because 135 00:10:07,159 --> 00:10:11,840 there were no engine sound, just a swooshing of air, they said, 136 00:10:11,759 --> 00:10:15,360 moving through the air. You know, it's funny. A lot of times 137 00:10:15,399 --> 00:10:20,159 you never hear of anybody even saying that, yeah you're right, Yeah, 138 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:26,480 yeah, you're right, which is odd a real word. Actually they used 139 00:10:26,759 --> 00:10:35,840 swish swish alike. Ah okay, So I haven't googled that to find if 140 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:39,639 it's a real word. I don't think it is. But you know what's 141 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:43,440 funny these days, I don't I don't think there's an age I remember growing 142 00:10:43,519 --> 00:10:48,159 up. It was not like this. When there were there was words added 143 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,720 to the dictionary, it would be a big deal. There'd be a news 144 00:10:50,759 --> 00:10:52,080 story, you know, you'd see all about it. There'd just be a 145 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:58,919 couple it would be controversial. These days, they're adding you know, words 146 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:03,799 like crazy, like every word someone makes up so that it's shorter for them 147 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:07,399 to tweet it, it gets in the dictionary. So I'm sure if we 148 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:13,840 start using swish in fact, especially if we started hashtaging it, we can 149 00:11:13,879 --> 00:11:16,840 get it in the dictionary in no time. I think we should. We 150 00:11:16,879 --> 00:11:22,000 should get on this and get it done. One last triangular UFO sighting I 151 00:11:22,039 --> 00:11:26,399 wanted to talk about was seen at on August nineteenth, and this is in 152 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:31,480 the Austin, Texas area. This one's a little more exciting because it was 153 00:11:31,519 --> 00:11:35,080 six forty four am, so it was during daylight hours. And this was 154 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:41,879 a guy who says he was outside and looking at a squirrel on an apartment 155 00:11:41,039 --> 00:11:45,759 rooftop, which kind of reminds that that's like me in the morning. My 156 00:11:45,879 --> 00:11:50,120 brain takes forever to warm up, so I'm like a zombie. And that's 157 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:54,519 like about as much input as I can kind of comprehend. In the morning, 158 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:58,480 I can see myself sitting there in the morning watching a squirrel, you 159 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,159 know, like a dog, just watching it going back and forth. But 160 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,679 anyway, I think that's what I'm guessing that's what this guy was doing, 161 00:12:05,759 --> 00:12:09,960 trying to wake up in the morning. He's watching the squirrel run around, 162 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:16,200 and then beyond the squirrel, he noticed a triangular shaped object that he said 163 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:20,919 was coming towards him at a high rate of speed. He said. What 164 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:26,679 was interesting is that the body of the object appeared transparent, like it was 165 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:31,919 changing colors. It actually flew over him. He said it was cloudy, 166 00:12:31,279 --> 00:12:35,960 and he estimated the clouds were around thirteen thousand feet, so he thinks this 167 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:39,240 was a bit lower than that because he could see it. But yeah, 168 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:45,200 the strange object, he felt was kind of stealthy, even had some kind 169 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:50,480 of color changing properties that zoomed right over his head. Wow, Well is 170 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:54,440 that it for this week? That's it for this week? Triangles on parade, 171 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,200 I know. And it seemed like there are a couple of stories we 172 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,960 had the week before, more and more and more. Yeah, a lot 173 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:05,399 of triangular sightings, so really interesting stuff. And I have heard from David 174 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,600 Marler and I should get back to him. Um he of course, it's 175 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,600 a guy who wrote a book on triangles that I would recommend. You've had 176 00:13:13,639 --> 00:13:16,759 him on your show's I guess he's got some new stuff out there too, 177 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:22,559 so yeah, yeah stuff. All right, Well, thanks very much and 178 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:26,080 we'll be talking to you next week. All right, talk to you soon, 179 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,840 buddy. All right, quick music break right here, we'll be right 180 00:13:28,840 --> 00:14:28,879 back with Dawn Ecker. That music is by a fan in Ireland, carry 181 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:33,720 Lloyd Whitehouse. Thanks for that, Carrie. And before we bring Don and 182 00:14:33,799 --> 00:14:35,960 just quickly, I'm going to be at the Experiencers Speak in Portland, Maine 183 00:14:37,519 --> 00:14:41,279 this coming Friday night and Saturday, and hope to see you there'd be if 184 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:45,960 you're listening to the show, please come find me. I'll be around up. 185 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,440 I think Saturday it might have a podcast UFO T shirt on. I'm 186 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:54,720 not sure, but anyway, hope to hang out with you. And also 187 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:58,360 we have a phone number here six three nine six seven four zero three zero 188 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,960 for calling. Make a note of that if you would, or if you 189 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:05,799 want to skype ind It's Marty Willis m A rt Y W I L L 190 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:11,399 I s Don Ecker, How are you fine? How about you? Martin? 191 00:15:11,879 --> 00:15:16,759 Great? And you are what I call a seasoned person. You've been 192 00:15:16,799 --> 00:15:20,360 at this a long time, and you have an interesting background. For the 193 00:15:20,399 --> 00:15:22,799 person that may not know you, I'm sure a lot or most do. 194 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:28,960 But can you fill us in with your background and what your interest was, 195 00:15:30,039 --> 00:15:35,840 how you started having an interest in UFOs and alike. Well, my interest 196 00:15:35,919 --> 00:15:43,480 in UFOs actually went goes back to when I was, excuse me, a 197 00:15:43,519 --> 00:15:48,960 teenager. I had a rather exciting sighting in December of nineteen sixty six. 198 00:15:50,279 --> 00:15:56,200 I'm originally from the East Coast from Pennsylvania. I live in California now, 199 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:02,840 but in December, especially during that period of time, I was in high 200 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:10,480 school and I was on a deer hunting trip with four friends. When we 201 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:18,639 were coming back late in the afternoon, we were overflown by four brilliant arc 202 00:16:18,759 --> 00:16:26,720 light type lights and one of my friends saw them first and yelled and we 203 00:16:26,799 --> 00:16:30,159 all jumped turned around. And these lights where and they were not low. 204 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:38,480 They were probably I'm going to guess, somewhere between twelve fifteen thousand feet perhaps, 205 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:45,600 but they were striking, I mean just absolutely striking, and as they 206 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,360 overflew us, the one light in the rear. They originally were in a 207 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:55,159 diamond formation, suddenly shot straight up in the sky. So that's when I 208 00:16:55,279 --> 00:16:59,440 knew that there was As far as I was concerned, you bet there was 209 00:16:59,519 --> 00:17:08,119 something to the phenomenon. So I guess it was in nineteen eighty two, 210 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:15,480 although I was not then consciously aware of it, but I was a criminal 211 00:17:15,519 --> 00:17:22,039 investigator, a policeman, and I had been called out to This was in 212 00:17:22,079 --> 00:17:27,240 the state of Idaho. I had been called out on an agricultural crime. 213 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:36,680 I had been sent out because a farmer had reported a dead cow, one 214 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:41,799 of his cattle, that was only maybe thirty five yards or so from the 215 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:49,440 rear of his house. In other words, it had happened literally on top 216 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:56,119 of his house, and it was a classic mutilation. And the guy had 217 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:00,880 several kids, he was married, he had a couple full of dogs. 218 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:08,559 Nothing had alerted any of the dogs or himself or his family when this happened, 219 00:18:10,519 --> 00:18:18,319 apparently sometime during the night. So that case was never solved, and 220 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:23,200 it wasn't until a number of years later. I was wounded in line of 221 00:18:23,279 --> 00:18:30,160 duty, ended up medically retiring in nineteen eighty six, and the following year 222 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:37,200 while I was going through physical rehab. To keep myself busy, I bought 223 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:42,480 my first computer system. Well that's early nineteen eighty six seven, Yeah, 224 00:18:42,559 --> 00:18:52,440 that's pretty early. And then I compounded that error Martin by buying a modem, 225 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,640 and I discovered compu served to the two six dollars forty cents an hour 226 00:18:57,519 --> 00:19:00,480 at three hundred boad. Okay, now, if you don't know what three 227 00:19:00,559 --> 00:19:07,799 hundred bought is, you're lucky. That was like chiseling, you know, 228 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:12,200 chiseling words into a chunk of granite watching them scroll across your screen. But 229 00:19:12,519 --> 00:19:19,519 at any rate, I came across a forum on CompuServe called the Issues form, 230 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:26,000 and there were a number of files in there on various things like UFOs 231 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:33,480 cases that at that time were current, and some cattle mutilation files. And 232 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,039 suddenly the light went on in my head and I said, oh my god, 233 00:19:37,839 --> 00:19:42,039 that's apparently what I had been involved in. So that that's basically how 234 00:19:42,079 --> 00:19:48,559 I got my start. Well, you know, there's a there really is 235 00:19:48,599 --> 00:19:53,680 a weird subject, a weird Another weird thing to look into is the whole 236 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:57,920 cattle mutilations. You know, that's come up a couple of times on shows 237 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:02,000 in the past, and and you know, there's some people that have done 238 00:20:02,039 --> 00:20:07,720 some great research and I thought Linda moul Molton Howe way back when, did 239 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:11,920 a really good, you know, a documentary on that, and a few 240 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,480 other people haven't investigated it, and some people it comes back to a lot 241 00:20:15,519 --> 00:20:18,640 of people are still saying, you know, this is a people that are 242 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,319 doing this. This is um. You know, it all comes back to 243 00:20:22,799 --> 00:20:27,200 um. It's kind of unexplainable. If you ask me, the incisions, 244 00:20:29,799 --> 00:20:34,039 the precision of all the things that are done on these animals. Now you 245 00:20:34,079 --> 00:20:41,039 actually saw this with your own eye. So what was that like? Well, 246 00:20:41,079 --> 00:20:44,359 I didn't know what it was at the time. It was obvious that 247 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:51,799 it was that it was intentionally done by someone or something. Now, you 248 00:20:51,839 --> 00:20:56,240 know, you bring up a very interesting point because this is something that I 249 00:20:56,319 --> 00:21:04,400 have I have rest time and time again. If this were a human agency 250 00:21:04,799 --> 00:21:15,559 that was conducting these mutilations. Okay, you're talking about a national or even 251 00:21:15,599 --> 00:21:21,880 international consortium that would have to be doing this. Why do I say that, 252 00:21:22,839 --> 00:21:29,759 Well, it's not located to one just one small geographic area. This 253 00:21:29,839 --> 00:21:37,000 has been nationwide. It has stretched literally from the states of Washington and Oregon 254 00:21:37,599 --> 00:21:45,720 and Idaho and Nevada and Montana and Utah and Oklahoma and Texas, I mean 255 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:53,079 all across the United States. And in all the years that those cases have 256 00:21:53,240 --> 00:22:00,079 been reported, and we're going back fifty sixty or more years. Here's the 257 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:07,640 one thing to keep in mind. No one has ever been arrested or successfully 258 00:22:07,759 --> 00:22:14,279 prosecuted. Now, I was a law enforcement agent out here in the West, 259 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:21,200 and let me tell you, when you're talking about ranchers and farmers that 260 00:22:21,279 --> 00:22:27,720 have cattle, you're talking about huge financial investments and very protective too. And 261 00:22:27,839 --> 00:22:36,079 these guys and women will not brook any interference with their with their animals, 262 00:22:36,519 --> 00:22:44,720 and that includes going out with lethal weapons, with rifles, shotguns to defend 263 00:22:44,759 --> 00:22:49,440 and protect their animals. And you know, this is just something that I 264 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:53,920 could never fathom would be able to be carried on as long as it could. 265 00:22:55,039 --> 00:23:00,000 And if this were a human agencies, someone not get shot or arrested 266 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:06,119 or prosecuted. And it just hasn't happened. I think I've heard the theory 267 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:12,160 from someone that it is a government of the government is checking to see what 268 00:23:12,319 --> 00:23:18,480 nuclear I mean, radiation affects are having on you know, biological entities like 269 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:23,480 you know animals in areas and that's why they're doing it. But that I'm 270 00:23:23,519 --> 00:23:26,559 sure you've heard that one too. It makes it doesn't make any sense to 271 00:23:26,599 --> 00:23:30,640 me. Well, that's not to say that it may have never happened. 272 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:37,759 That is certainly it's not something I would throw out, but it is not 273 00:23:37,839 --> 00:23:44,720 the only answer. It can't be right. And you know, what are 274 00:23:44,759 --> 00:23:48,519 your thoughts on it? I mean, you know a lot of people think 275 00:23:48,599 --> 00:23:53,599 it's tied to the UFO, you know, to extraterrestrial of I mean, 276 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,119 it's to me, I think it's just one of those unexplainables. I don't 277 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:03,119 know. And in your research that you have done where there are a number 278 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:07,599 of cases where there was a UFO sighting at the same time or ahead of 279 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,079 time. Sure, sure, now, I you know, back when I 280 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:15,000 was active and for the first I'm going to say four or five years that 281 00:24:15,079 --> 00:24:22,440 I was involved with UFO magazine, that is what my research was known for 282 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:33,119 was mutilations, not only animal mutilations, but also human mutilations. And I 283 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,920 wrote a number of papers that can still be found on the web about that. 284 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:42,480 This is when I was when I was daily, I was really dwelve 285 00:24:42,759 --> 00:24:51,640 delving into this into this subject. Now, the various theories that I have 286 00:24:51,759 --> 00:24:59,160 heard over all those years are Legion, for example, one of the people 287 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:06,160 that that I knew very well and I had a lot of chats with him. 288 00:25:06,279 --> 00:25:11,200 As a matter of fact, I interviewed him on my first in the 289 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:18,839 pages of UFO Magazine when my wife and I were publishing that, and also 290 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:23,640 when I began my broadcast career back in nineteen ninety one. Okay, I 291 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:30,839 had him on the radio with me. Was noted author and fourteen researcher John 292 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:38,839 Keel now Keel back in the sixties and seventies, was a prolific author. 293 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:45,000 I'm sure you're aware of him, right, Yes, had written a book 294 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:52,640 that when I first read about it in the mid nineteen seventies, I immediately 295 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,400 went out to my local bookstore ordered to copy. It was titled The Mothman 296 00:25:56,599 --> 00:26:03,720 Prophecies because as the case that he was talking about took place not very far 297 00:26:03,799 --> 00:26:10,559 from where I grew up at in central western Pennsylvania. The case took place 298 00:26:10,599 --> 00:26:15,880 in Point Pleasant, West Virginia and the Ohio Valley, which, as the 299 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:21,519 crow flies, was pretty close to me. And I can recall at the 300 00:26:21,759 --> 00:26:30,559 time that this was ongoing hearing about it in the news because people were seeing 301 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:38,279 a cryptozoological apparently a cryptozoological creature that they called the mothman down in that area. 302 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:51,079 And this creature was involved in scores of cases of missing dogs. I 303 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:56,559 mean, and some of this stuff is going to sound pretty crazy, but 304 00:26:56,759 --> 00:27:00,480 I got this directly from Keel and he was still at that time when I 305 00:27:00,559 --> 00:27:07,960 was talking to him, was still flummixed by what he had encountered during that 306 00:27:08,039 --> 00:27:14,759 period of time. Talk about strange occurrences. And I think about it today, 307 00:27:14,799 --> 00:27:18,440 and I'll be honest, it still can give me a chill when I 308 00:27:18,519 --> 00:27:25,799 think about it. But this creature and the events that were happening during that 309 00:27:25,839 --> 00:27:32,559 period of time included, among other things, not only missing animals, live 310 00:27:32,759 --> 00:27:38,559 stock and what have you, domesticated pets, but also mutilations. And we're 311 00:27:38,599 --> 00:27:42,079 talking about animal, you know, cows, We're talking about stuff like that. 312 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:52,480 Now, Keil had a very interesting theory and he bounced it off me. 313 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,119 I didn't know what to think about it, and as a matter of 314 00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:03,039 fact, he had written about it in his book Man. But he although 315 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:12,680 originally considered UFOs to be potentially extraterrestrial, finally came to the conclusion that they 316 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:22,119 were not extraterrestrial, he coined the term ultra terrestrial. Now, what does 317 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:30,720 that in affect mean? He thought they were interdimensional? Now to me, 318 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:36,680 okay, alien is alien is alien, all right, whether it comes from 319 00:28:36,839 --> 00:28:42,920 another star system or another dimension or another universe. I mean, I don't 320 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:48,880 see, you know what the semantics matter, you know, if you're talking 321 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:57,279 about something that is coming here from somewhere else. But Kiel came up with 322 00:28:57,319 --> 00:29:07,400 the theory that these ultra terrestrials, with all this missing biological material, animals, 323 00:29:07,839 --> 00:29:15,480 blood, various other items that you know were missing and involved in these 324 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:26,440 cases, that perhaps these entities were using them to construct biological entities to be 325 00:29:26,519 --> 00:29:32,599 able to operate in our domain here in our universe, in our on our 326 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:37,519 planet. Now. One of the things that he used to support his theory 327 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:45,559 were tales of the infamous Men in Black, the MIBs. Now, at 328 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:52,240 that period of time, the mi ibs were not you know, Will Smith 329 00:29:52,279 --> 00:30:00,079 and Tommy Tommy Lee Jones. They were actually terrifying entities that often showed up 330 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:07,720 in the event the aftermath of UFO cases, and in one famous case that 331 00:30:08,079 --> 00:30:14,640 Keel talked about in his book, where some people down in West Virginia that 332 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:22,799 had had a UFO sighting, and a day or two later, this monstrosity 333 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:30,359 of a looking man showed up at their door, a huge guy. He 334 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,920 told me he knocked on the door and they opened it up, and he 335 00:30:33,079 --> 00:30:38,119 said he was there. If I remember correctly, and it's been a while 336 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,839 since I've read Keel's book, but he was there to find out if they 337 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:48,799 might have been heirs to somebody that had recently died. That was his excuse 338 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:55,440 for getting in the house. But his suit was ill fitting. The guy 339 00:30:55,759 --> 00:31:00,200 was bald, extra pale. I mean, he could maybe passed for a 340 00:31:00,319 --> 00:31:06,400 vampire. And he came in, sat down, the pants that he was 341 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:11,759 wearing rode up his leg, and I believe it was the wife noticed what 342 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:18,440 appeared to be a green wire or cable that was inserted into his leg. 343 00:31:21,319 --> 00:31:25,400 Now, you know, when you hear stories like that, I mean, 344 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,519 sure, at first, blush, you go, oh bullshit, you know, 345 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:34,640 But the fact that the matter was that this was not the only case 346 00:31:34,839 --> 00:31:42,920 where something like that happened. And you know, when the individual finally left 347 00:31:44,039 --> 00:31:51,279 their house and he walked outside, he almost immediately disappeared. Gone, I 348 00:31:51,359 --> 00:31:56,960 mean gone, okay, just like he vanished in the thin air. So 349 00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:00,440 there was something with a high degree of strangeness that was going on down there 350 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:07,599 that Keel had chronicled, and of course he wrote, oh my lord. 351 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:14,240 He wrote a number of books where he talked about cases like this, and 352 00:32:14,359 --> 00:32:21,400 that's basically where he was coming from and his explanation for why they might have 353 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:27,519 been mutilating these animals and taking other items like blood. Now, I heard 354 00:32:27,559 --> 00:32:31,599 another theory back then about the missing blood, and this was one of the 355 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:42,000 staples in mutilation cases, especially with cattle. If it was a genuine mutilation, 356 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:47,640 almost invariably, the blood would seemingly disappear. It was exanguinated from the 357 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:54,039 carcass. And there were stories that were floating around and even made it into 358 00:32:54,319 --> 00:33:05,960 the pages of numerous newspapers that there was a process where bulvine blood, cattle 359 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:13,640 blood okay, could be used the plasma at any rate in the event of 360 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:20,599 a national emergency, all right, this could be used as a blood substitute. 361 00:33:21,559 --> 00:33:23,759 So there were a lot of people with a lot of theories on what 362 00:33:23,799 --> 00:33:28,839 this all may have been, But those were just a couple of them that 363 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:35,799 I came across in the years well Now let's talk about your background as in 364 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:40,200 law enforcement, because I'm sure that really helped you with all the type of 365 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:45,720 the research you did in the following years. Yeah, sure it did. 366 00:33:46,119 --> 00:33:51,519 And is that how you conduct Did you conduct these cases that you were researching 367 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:59,880 basically the same way as you would and your profession absolutely absolutely over the years, 368 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:04,880 you know, I mean that that's one knack if I if I can, 369 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:09,000 you know, be so specific that I always thought was of great benefit 370 00:34:09,079 --> 00:34:16,599 to me over the years. I've interviewed and investigated hundreds and I'm not just 371 00:34:16,639 --> 00:34:23,119 talking about UFOs. I'm talking about when I was involved in criminal investigations cases, 372 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:29,079 uh where you know, we we would go out, we would be 373 00:34:29,119 --> 00:34:37,440 looking for a perpetrator to a crime and they the crimes ranged from narcotics to 374 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:44,559 uh thefts, robberies, homicides, rapes. Uh. You know, it's 375 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:50,599 it's just the whole spectrum of the types of things that you know, the 376 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:57,480 cops come across every day. And I'm not going to say I was a 377 00:34:57,639 --> 00:35:05,280 hundred percent always on the money, but I could generally tell if somebody were 378 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:10,639 trying to spin a story on me. And when it came to the UFO 379 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:16,960 field, that was generally a great benefit. I'll never forget back when Vicky, 380 00:35:17,199 --> 00:35:22,920 my wife Vicky, who was the founder of UFO magazine, and I 381 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:30,639 were publishing. We were our offices were in Sunland, California, and I 382 00:35:30,679 --> 00:35:35,039 had a very good friend. As a matter of fact, I knew many 383 00:35:35,119 --> 00:35:42,119 of the people in media, television, and the film industry. Over the 384 00:35:42,199 --> 00:35:46,880 years, we knew a lot of them. And a friend of mine who 385 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:54,159 was a television producer who at that time was working on a documentary on the 386 00:35:54,280 --> 00:36:00,480 UFO topic and I had been una, you know, I had been contributing 387 00:36:00,119 --> 00:36:06,079 to his process, called me up and said, don He said, You're 388 00:36:06,119 --> 00:36:08,360 not going to believe this, He said, but I just came across a 389 00:36:08,559 --> 00:36:17,320 guy who was out in the California desert close to the Nevada border. And 390 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:25,079 there's a very famous area out there, Martin called Zizis Road, Okay, 391 00:36:27,199 --> 00:36:31,320 and it's a very spooky spot. And a number of years ago, excuse 392 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:37,199 me, my very close friend and Friday night co host on my radio show 393 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:43,840 Rich Saturday and I had gone over to Nevada to Las Vegas on a thing 394 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:49,719 that we were doing some investigation on, and on the way back we had 395 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:55,280 a rather amazing sighting. We had pulled off on this Zizis road for a 396 00:36:55,320 --> 00:37:02,280 comfort stop, okay, and we had an amazing UFO sighting out there. 397 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:07,599 This was in the middle of the night, and you know, in the 398 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,800 desert it was. It was rather extraordinary. But at any rate, my 399 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:17,039 producer friend told me about this guy that lived out in that area. So 400 00:37:17,079 --> 00:37:20,920 I said, well, Russ, I said, what was the story. 401 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:22,760 What did the guy tell you? He said, well, he didn't just 402 00:37:23,039 --> 00:37:27,480 tell me. He said, he gave me a photograph. And I said, 403 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:31,159 of what he said, Well, this is what the guy claimed. 404 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:35,559 He said, he was sitting in his living room and he was watching TV, 405 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,920 and he had his polaroid camera. There was a polaroid photograph by the 406 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:45,119 way, you know, the instematic thing shot and it would slip out in 407 00:37:45,199 --> 00:37:52,199 a minute or so later you'd have a photo. And he said, while 408 00:37:52,199 --> 00:37:58,280 he was sitting there, he thought he could feel eyes upon him. And 409 00:37:58,679 --> 00:38:04,000 he said he turned around and looked out the window and he said, what 410 00:38:04,119 --> 00:38:08,440 he told me, Don was that there was a gray alien out there staring 411 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:14,280 at him through the window. And he grabbed the camera and he took a 412 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:22,119 picture of it. Well, I gotta tell you. My BS indicator started 413 00:38:22,199 --> 00:38:25,039 clanging, but I said, okay, I mean, you never want to 414 00:38:25,079 --> 00:38:31,400 go into any any situation Martin, if you're an honest, legitimate researcher, 415 00:38:31,599 --> 00:38:39,199 investigator and allow your preconceived notions, okay, to control what you do. 416 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:44,079 I mean, that's not what an investigator does. Now, you may have 417 00:38:44,199 --> 00:38:47,760 suspicions, and believe me, when I heard that story, I did, 418 00:38:49,559 --> 00:38:53,239 but you follow it through to conclusion. So my buddy said, I'll bring 419 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:59,480 the photo over to you, and I said, okay, so sure enough 420 00:38:59,519 --> 00:39:04,480 a Dare's. So later he showed up at our offices, came in and 421 00:39:04,519 --> 00:39:08,639 he handed me this photograph and I looked at it and it was kind of 422 00:39:08,679 --> 00:39:14,320 a blurry image, and yeah, it sure looked like a gray but that 423 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:24,760 wasn't all on the picture. It looked like somebody had vomited on this photograph 424 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:30,000 and then wiped it off. I kid you not. So I looked at 425 00:39:30,079 --> 00:39:32,639 Russ and I said, Russ, I said, what is that stuff? 426 00:39:34,119 --> 00:39:37,280 He said, Well, he said when he was eating a bowl of cereal. 427 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:39,639 This is what he told me. He was eating a bowl of cereal 428 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:45,440 and when he first looked at the photograph, he said, he was so 429 00:39:45,559 --> 00:39:53,119 shocked that he went and he blew cereal on it. So we took that 430 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:59,679 photograph and Russ had some equipment. I had some equipment. We started examining 431 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,159 this and I said, well, I want to talk to this guy, 432 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:06,239 and he said, well, he said he didn't want to talk to you. 433 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:07,239 He said, I told him that I was going to bring it over 434 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,400 to you, but he doesn't want to talk to you. And I said 435 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:16,239 why not, Well, he doesn't want the notoriety. Oh okay. So 436 00:40:16,519 --> 00:40:25,480 we examined this photograph and there was a magazine that somebody had sent us at 437 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:37,679 the ufoofses. And this magazine was a professional oil industry magazine, okay, 438 00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:43,920 for the oil industry. Now, the reason they sent us the magazine was 439 00:40:44,039 --> 00:40:51,679 because inside this issue, okay, they had a full page ad. Now 440 00:40:51,840 --> 00:41:00,280 remember this, we're talking about ninety two ninety three. UFOs were still fresh, 441 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:07,880 exciting. Every week on television you could find three to five six programs 442 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:15,519 with the UFO theme. I mean, it was really the the wrench that 443 00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:25,000 was driving the media scene back then. Shows like Oprah Winfrey, Larry King 444 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:35,519 Live, you know, inside edition, sightings, encounters, a hard copy, 445 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:44,920 all these programs continuously for almost a decade ran UFO topics every week, 446 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,079 So a lot of people were excited about it, and a lot of you 447 00:41:49,119 --> 00:41:55,360 know, a lot of chatter was was out there in TV land. Well, 448 00:41:55,920 --> 00:42:05,800 this oil industry magazin Scene had this full page ad which used the UFO 449 00:42:06,159 --> 00:42:14,159 et theme in this ad, and I mean they had on the photograph a 450 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:22,840 large representation of a typical gray alien. And I looked at that picture I'm 451 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:30,159 talking about in the magazine, and I looked at this photograph that Russ had 452 00:42:30,199 --> 00:42:36,519 brought to me, and they were identical. This guy was trying to float 453 00:42:36,639 --> 00:42:42,800 a hoax where he apparently had a copy of that cut the alien out of 454 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:50,400 it. Okay, then through some screens or something, shot this polaroid photograph 455 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,039 and I mean, you know, those are the kind of things that you 456 00:42:53,159 --> 00:42:59,480 run into all the time. But we were able to bust it at the 457 00:42:59,519 --> 00:43:02,320 source. And then I had my answer why this guy didn't even want to 458 00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:07,119 talk to me on the telephone, much less meet me. So wow, 459 00:43:07,679 --> 00:43:12,079 that's the kind of stuff that we would do, and uh, you know, 460 00:43:12,119 --> 00:43:15,280 we would bust Yeah, Well, that that is an amazing one. 461 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:21,400 And let's talk about when you had the magazine. What that was like, 462 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,719 I mean that that is grueling with deadlines and everything, isn't it. Oh 463 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:30,119 yeah, yeah, sure was. But I'll tell you it was one of 464 00:43:30,159 --> 00:43:36,480 the jobs, the few jobs in my life that I actually I looked forward 465 00:43:36,559 --> 00:43:40,559 to bouncing out of bed in the morning and going to work because it was 466 00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:49,320 fascinating. Not only did I get a chance to meet literally people from all 467 00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:53,760 over the globe, all around the world, okay, but some of the 468 00:43:53,880 --> 00:44:01,599 most fascinating cases and some of the most fascinating hoaxes you could ever hope to 469 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:07,400 encounter. H wow. And so this is going back, um, you 470 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:13,639 know, kind of like during the birth of the internet about that same time, 471 00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:17,679 isn't it. So? Oh yeah yeah, And you know I'd like 472 00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:21,119 to talk, Um, I don't know if it's going to be this hour 473 00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:27,679 next hour about you know, all the UFO hoaxes on YouTube. It's almost, 474 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:34,360 um, it's almost I've talked to actually other old, longtime researchers about 475 00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:39,320 this and forming a group that would basically call out hoaxes, and that would 476 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:46,800 be that would be very difficult to do, especially these days as we've all 477 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:54,079 been watching technology grow and grow and CGI and um. And then in today's 478 00:44:54,079 --> 00:44:58,960 world, it's harder and harder, is what I'm I'm getting. Here's the 479 00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,039 bottom line on a lot of that. Yes, you are correct, the 480 00:45:02,079 --> 00:45:12,440 CGI today is in some cases almost distinguishable from reality. But here's something else, 481 00:45:12,559 --> 00:45:20,480 and I've heard very few people mentioned this. Okay. I was involved 482 00:45:20,559 --> 00:45:29,320 in a case back in the very late nineteen eighties, very very early nineteen 483 00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:36,519 nineties that in that was involved and ended up being the F one seventeen stealth 484 00:45:36,559 --> 00:45:44,039 Fighter case. All right. Now, one of the people that I knew 485 00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:54,119 then and was an invaluable source of technology was a guy that worked for Aerojet, 486 00:45:54,440 --> 00:46:01,480 an aerospace company out here in southern California. And this guy had a 487 00:46:02,199 --> 00:46:12,000 bee up his bonnet about the UFO thing, and he was continuously snowing the 488 00:46:12,119 --> 00:46:22,239 DoD and the Air Force and other government agencies including the CIA and the NSA 489 00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:30,159 with FOYA requests. I mean a literal snowstorm that went on for years. 490 00:46:30,679 --> 00:46:37,679 And this was a case that I broke in the pages of UFO Magazine and 491 00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:45,159 on my original radio show UFOs Tonight, which was on the CRN network. 492 00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:53,239 Okay, And what they did, they, being the government, set this 493 00:46:53,519 --> 00:47:01,639 guy up with an Air Force general in Communicato, and an FBI agent came 494 00:47:01,679 --> 00:47:10,000 to his place of business, deliberately exposed him to classified information that he did 495 00:47:10,079 --> 00:47:14,800 not have a need to know, and then tried to get him fired. 496 00:47:15,559 --> 00:47:22,239 Okay, Now it involved the F one seventeen, just before the F one 497 00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:29,360 seventeen went public, So I guess they felt safe in doing that. Now, 498 00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:35,840 this is the kind of stuff, the red meat that I sunk my 499 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:39,119 teeth in. Now, when I was in the military, okay, I 500 00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:43,960 was a Vietnam veteran. I was in the military. I was involved in 501 00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:50,000 military intelligence. I had a top secret clearance with a crypto access. Now, 502 00:47:50,039 --> 00:47:54,960 all that meant was in the course of my duties, if I had 503 00:47:55,199 --> 00:48:02,880 a need to know certain classified in information, I could be given that classified 504 00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:10,440 information because it was involved in whatever it was I was doing. However, 505 00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:15,760 if I did not have a need to know, then that TSC. Clarence 506 00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:21,880 meant no more to me than it would do you. Okay. In other 507 00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:24,199 words, if I didn't have a need to know, I wouldn't be shown 508 00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:31,280 the information. Zach cut and dried. Now, the F one seventeen was 509 00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:37,119 actually an aircraft that had its development all the way back in the nineteen seventies. 510 00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:49,400 Now, my point is that aircraft technology, what we see flying around 511 00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:55,719 in the skies any day of the week. Okay, if you think that 512 00:48:55,719 --> 00:49:02,599 that is the cutting edge that aerospace is working on, then I'm going to 513 00:49:02,679 --> 00:49:07,000 let you go back to your correspondence with the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus, 514 00:49:07,679 --> 00:49:15,199 because anything that we see flying the cutting edge, and you can take this 515 00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:22,519 to the bank, is at least thirty years or more in advance of what 516 00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:28,679 you're seeing. My god, the SR seventy one, the Blackbird, Okay, 517 00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:35,440 the aircraft that I used to watch flying out of Okinawa, Okay to 518 00:49:35,599 --> 00:49:44,880 go to North Vietnam, China, Korea, Okay, was an aircraft that's 519 00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:50,559 still today. Officially it's speed record or its height that it could fly at 520 00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:57,119 has never been broken, although I'm sure it has. But officially this aircraft 521 00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:01,920 is still faster, higher than anything else flying that was developed in the nineteen 522 00:50:02,039 --> 00:50:08,679 fifties. Now do you honestly believe that that was the cutting edge? I 523 00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:13,760 mean, and that was all the way back then what we have today. 524 00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:17,639 For all I know, they're working on an interstellar drive. You see what 525 00:50:17,679 --> 00:50:23,280 I'm saying. So what we see in the sky today, it's really hard 526 00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:31,360 to make that distinction between what we could be flying and what somebody else is 527 00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:36,639 flying. Now, I heard what your co host there at the beginning of 528 00:50:36,679 --> 00:50:44,400 the program was talking about triangles craft flying around, lots of them. There 529 00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:52,159 have been triangle craft that has been flying around for thirty plus years in the 530 00:50:52,159 --> 00:50:59,280 skies above the United States and other places around the world. And these craft 531 00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:07,599 and I was still fifteen years ago on good authority that these were extremely advanced 532 00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:16,159 military flying machines that the US Armed Forces were flying. Now, is that 533 00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:22,719 the bottom line? No, of course not. Perhaps they saw something in 534 00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:25,880 the sky at one point and they tried to emulate it. I mean that's 535 00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:32,760 always possible. Also, but anything that you see flying that you think might 536 00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:37,320 be alien, well, you know, these days, it's really hard to 537 00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:43,840 say, right. The one thing that is very puzzling. Of course, 538 00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:51,559 you can hear people talk about they've already discovered an anti gravity vehicle. That's 539 00:51:51,559 --> 00:51:54,159 why that's not making any noise. But that is the curious thing is a 540 00:51:54,159 --> 00:52:00,960 lot of people that talk about these triangles that see them fairly close. I'll, 541 00:52:00,079 --> 00:52:04,880 as far as I know, mostly say that they hear no noise at 542 00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:08,119 all. Yeah, well, I mean that I'm not surprised by that. 543 00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:19,159 I mean the technology. Look look at our defense budget yearly, and I'm 544 00:52:19,199 --> 00:52:24,440 talking about I'm talking about what is publicly discussed. I'm not talking about the 545 00:52:24,519 --> 00:52:31,559 black budget. Okay, that is explained away with five thousand dollars toilet seats 546 00:52:32,119 --> 00:52:37,199 and thirty five hundred dollars hammers, you know, and a thousand dollars screwdriver. 547 00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:42,679 You know what I'm saying. Right, So you know what the black 548 00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:45,360 budget? I mean. I go, I go all the way back to 549 00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:52,880 nineteen eighty eight, when George Knapp broke the first story on Area fifty one 550 00:52:53,079 --> 00:53:00,159 publicly okay, and the Bob Lazar saga. Okay, what Lazarre claim was 551 00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:07,960 out there in those mountains in underground hangars. Is something like that possible? 552 00:53:08,559 --> 00:53:13,440 Well, as far as I'm concerned, you bet it's possible, all right. 553 00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:20,079 And I was involved with that story almost since the very beginning of it. 554 00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:24,360 And I couldn't tell you how many times I've talked to Nap and also 555 00:53:25,079 --> 00:53:31,880 Lazarre about that particular story. But the bottom line to take away from that, 556 00:53:32,039 --> 00:53:37,280 whether you believe it or not, is the fact that if the government 557 00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:42,800 had their hands on something. Believe me, that's how they would do it 558 00:53:45,679 --> 00:53:47,400 very well. Could be, you know, up on the message board, 559 00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:51,760 it's going to be changing gears a little and then we're almost at the top 560 00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:54,559 of the hour. We got about six or seven minutes or something like that. 561 00:53:55,000 --> 00:54:01,599 But someone wanted to find out what your relationship is or was with the 562 00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:06,840 Burns. They number of people were asking on the chat room, what do 563 00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:08,679 you mean? That's I don't know exactly what they're talking about. I guess 564 00:54:08,679 --> 00:54:14,320 I had to do with the UFO magazine. How did you change? You 565 00:54:14,519 --> 00:54:19,639 sold that basically or got out of it and they took it over. No, 566 00:54:19,639 --> 00:54:22,480 No, okay, I got that wrong. I'm sorry. Go ahead. 567 00:54:22,559 --> 00:54:30,280 Nineteen nineteen ninety seven. My wife and I okay, after eleven years 568 00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:35,400 of publishing the magazine, we ran into financial problems. Now, the publishing 569 00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:40,159 game is a very hard game, okay, And you've got to have a 570 00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:47,039 lot of income because the money that you're making is not the money from the 571 00:54:47,159 --> 00:54:54,199 last issue published. Okay, You get a magazine out, all right, 572 00:54:54,280 --> 00:55:00,920 It goes out to the distributors, then it goes out to wherever the subscribers. 573 00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:06,320 It goes out to the places where it's distributed, and you don't see 574 00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:10,840 any money of that for at least the next two to three issues, So 575 00:55:12,039 --> 00:55:15,440 you're always running on fumes. You see what I'm saying. Oh yeah, 576 00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:21,440 the bottom line. The bottom line was by ninety seven we were financially at 577 00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:30,000 the breaking point. Now we knew Bill Burns. Bill was very interested in 578 00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:37,519 not seeing UFO magazine. Wonder. He introduced us to some media people in 579 00:55:37,639 --> 00:55:43,920 the Hollywood arena. Okay, so we took some meetings with them, went 580 00:55:44,039 --> 00:55:51,519 down and they took over the publication all right, and kept Vicky on as 581 00:55:51,519 --> 00:55:55,480 the editor. I was on as the director of research. Bill was listed 582 00:55:55,559 --> 00:56:02,559 as a publisher, although at that time he did not have any financial considerations 583 00:56:02,639 --> 00:56:09,320 in it. Well, they kept it up for five years. And incidentally, 584 00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:15,960 these people, even though Vicky, my wife and I had been heading 585 00:56:15,039 --> 00:56:22,480 this for ten to eleven years all right, never wanted any input from us, 586 00:56:23,039 --> 00:56:28,840 not any input. I couldn't tell you how many times we would go 587 00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:32,079 in there with some ideas to do this, that or something else and we 588 00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:36,559 get shot down. So I said, fine, you know that's I mean, 589 00:56:36,559 --> 00:56:39,000 they're they're footing the bills okay, let them do it. Well, 590 00:56:39,039 --> 00:56:45,840 after five years, they basically said, well, we've lost too much money. 591 00:56:46,039 --> 00:56:53,440 We're going to shut the magazine down. However, if you and Vicky 592 00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:59,719 and Bill and his wife want to take it over, will allow you to 593 00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:05,559 keep publishing. Well, we did up until about two thousand and six. 594 00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:13,760 However, up to that point it was becoming increasingly harder and harder to work 595 00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:21,639 with Bill and his wife Nancy, and quite frankly, Nancy and I had 596 00:57:21,639 --> 00:57:27,719 clashed on a couple of occasions over inconsequential things. I'm not going to go 597 00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:32,679 into that. But finally I just had my fill of it. My wife, 598 00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:39,320 after twenty years, had her fill of it, and we bailed out. 599 00:57:39,679 --> 00:57:44,280 Okay in two thousand and six, the very beginning of two thousand and 600 00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:47,280 seven, and the Burns took it on. They were going to be the 601 00:57:47,320 --> 00:58:00,599 sole publishers. Well, they kept missing deadlines and the copy of the magazine 602 00:58:00,719 --> 00:58:06,320 for the next few issues. They didn't have any proofreaders, or if they 603 00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:12,039 did, they were missing stuff all the time. In the proofing of the 604 00:58:12,079 --> 00:58:15,280 magazine. There were a lot of egregious errors that popped up. And here 605 00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:22,480 was the other thing. As you can tell I was pretty factually oriented, 606 00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:30,360 and I gave short shrift to a lot of these well, let me let 607 00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:35,480 me think of a very polite way to say it, these pie in the 608 00:58:35,599 --> 00:58:43,039 sky unicorn searching so called UFO researchers, and they began running a lot of 609 00:58:44,719 --> 00:58:52,280 copy in the magazine that I found particularly offensive. And when I say offensive, 610 00:58:52,360 --> 00:59:00,840 I'm talking about cases that had been disproven years before that suddenly started popping 611 00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:07,000 up. Now. I attributed that to the fact that Bill was an academic. 612 00:59:07,159 --> 00:59:15,320 Okay, Nancy, who really fancied herself as an ACE publisher, just 613 00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:22,519 quite simply didn't know the field like Vicky and I had, and they would 614 00:59:22,559 --> 00:59:30,119 have things in there routinely, like the Dulce Bass shootout. Now, that's 615 00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:37,039 a story that goes back basically to Paul Benowitz, which could be a whole 616 00:59:37,239 --> 00:59:45,559 show or series of shows in itself where this poor guy was disinformed to the 617 00:59:45,719 --> 00:59:52,920 point where he ended up in a mental hospital by government disinformation agents. And 618 00:59:52,960 --> 01:00:00,719 I don't say that in a throwaway manner. I'm talking about actual information agents, 619 01:00:01,199 --> 01:00:05,719 all right, one of them named Rick Dody, who was with a 620 01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:13,039 FOSI at the time. Now, these cases were proven hoaxes, but they 621 01:00:13,079 --> 01:00:16,239 were now making it in the pages of UFO magazine. And I got to 622 01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:21,519 be honest too, I was not quiet about it, all right. When 623 01:00:21,599 --> 01:00:23,920 something like that would happen, I probably should have kept my mouth shut, 624 01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:30,280 but I couldn't, okay, because I saw what had been our baby going 625 01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:37,480 to hell. And then Nancy decided to take a year off and not publish 626 01:00:37,559 --> 01:00:45,119 the magazine, even though they were still taking subscriptions, okay from people that 627 01:00:45,159 --> 01:00:49,000 were expecting a magazine. She took a year off to write a novel, 628 01:00:50,039 --> 01:00:52,840 and not long after that the whole thing folded. So there it is, 629 01:00:53,239 --> 01:00:58,800 Well a nutshell. Thank you for that, don And we're right at the 630 01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:00,880 top of the hour. We're going to take a break here in a second. 631 01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:05,119 In the second hour, I'd like to talk to you more about how 632 01:01:05,639 --> 01:01:13,320 a lot of times the myths become seeming realities and why people get fed up 633 01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:15,480 in this field. I want to talk about that in the second hour. 634 01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:20,719 So that's it for the first hour. If you're listening to the podcast, 635 01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:24,239 you can support the show and listen to the whole show and arcs of past 636 01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:30,599 full shows for only a dollar a month or more. That information is right 637 01:01:30,639 --> 01:01:35,719 on our website PODCASTUFO dot Com. We appreciate every listener regardless. If you 638 01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:38,559 just like listening to the first hour, that's fine too, and we'll be 639 01:01:38,599 --> 01:01:44,320 back next week with Ray Hernandez. I want to thank some people today, 640 01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:49,159 Don Ecker for being the guest, Keith Roland for helping us out with the 641 01:01:49,199 --> 01:01:53,360 live show, Peggy Shunning for managing the Facebook page and if you want to 642 01:01:53,440 --> 01:02:00,320 join twenty three thousand or so like minded people like us on Facebook. And 643 01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:05,440 also we have the latest UFO news going up there all the time and related 644 01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:12,239 stories. Again. I'll be at the Experiencers Speak this coming weekend in Portland, 645 01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:15,760 Maine. I hope a listener or two will join me there. That 646 01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:20,039 would be a lot of fun. And I want to thank Carrie Lloyd Whitehouse 647 01:02:20,039 --> 01:02:23,480 for the music Almost Forgot. And that's it for the show and we'll be 648 01:02:23,519 --> 01:02:50,119 back next week same time. Thanks and keep your eyes to the sky.