And it hits me, Oh my gosh, this is at triangle. You
know, there's explanation for everything that occurred in the randallsham pars and consid it
doesn't involve aliens at all. It was completely silent. It comes right over
our heads. Classic Vice also really standing into clearing. He turned over to
my father and held his hand, and he looked in his eyes and said,
we're not alone. Welcome to podcast UFO for our live show. We're
live every Wednesday at eight pm Eastern Standard Time on the Dark Matter Radio Network.
Please remember to visit the website podcast ufo dot com for past episodes,
blogs, and forums. During the show, feel free to participate live in
our chat room, and don't forget to like us on our very active Facebook
page. Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm Martin Willishure host.
We have Alejandro Rojas coming up in just a minute, and our guest tonight
is Don Ecker, seasoned UFO researcher, and we're going to be maybe calling
some people out, maybe talking about some hoaxers and some people that hang on
to old beliefs. I don't know what we're going to get into, but
I have a feeling it's going to be something like that. I want to
thank all our support us for supporting the show. If you want to listen
to the full show and you're not listening live, you can listen to the
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Thank you Paul, Jeff and thank you Jeff. And also Justin Brown
it said I could use his whole name. He's from Halifax, Nova Scochi
and I think he just had a sighting. He sent me something. Steve
Oh and Dan and Bill they're at the tendall level. Thank you so much.
And so is Michael d. From Michael Douglas. He said, I
can use his whole name, and he's supporting us from Tasmania. And there's
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Wayne Oh and a Shane. You guys have bellied up to the bar for
twenty five dollars a month. Subscription and thanks a lot, and you're joining
my good friend Phil who's been there from the beginning. And I am very
grateful to you all, and actually grateful to every single listener. And that
is actually enough of my nonsense and it's time to bring on Alejandro Rojas.
How are you doing, Alejandro? I am doing good. You ready for
some of my nonsense? Absolutely? All right? Yeah? Yeah? So
are you're feeling better these days? Yes, much better than I was a
week ago when I was feeling yecky and my temmy was feeling a little gurgli
this time. But yeah you sound you sound chipper today I should good.
Yeah, that's good. Yeah. So I was noticing because I get you
know, UFO Google alerts, and I was noticing there was there was some
things going on this week. Well, this is what's funny. It's the
UK. Really papers have gone Nutso they've gone sronkers. That's right, it
is UK. Yeah, they all of their papers are posting like they're trying
to outdo each other with UFO stories. Most of their stories are really crappy.
Yes, um, you know, I posted one on the Facebook page
because Peggy's under the weather right now, so I've been working on the Facebook
page, and I did get a lot of lashback from one that was it
was I knew it was kind of ridiculous, but it got a lot of
conversations going, yeah, they're usually ridiculous, and I shouldn't say they're all
crappy because a lot of times, luckily that they do seem to monitor our
site and they'll post stories regarding things that we write about. But when we
go through the news today, I'm not even using one of those stories because
even though on our front page we do go through the headlines and you can
see some of the headlines with UFO stories, you'll notice that their stories are
all kind of ridiculous. They're they're really poor videos or hoax videos. Okay,
so that's great. You got some new news. So that's not from
the UK, it's actually news. Yeah, right, so let's have it.
This first one, I just wanted to mention it's kind of an honorable
mention because it's not necessarily UFOs, but it's an Area fifty one and this
video is so much fun. So there was this guy, Glenn Campbell,
and in the nineties he was a big Area fifty one researcher. This guy's
really interesting. He doesn't own a home. He's a homeless person and he's
very proud of that. He always lives out of his car. He used
to live near Area fifty one and get take video and trying to bug the
security guards and stuff like that, and did a lot of stuff on Area
fifty one. Had some really good information and photographs and stuff like that.
But it's been a while since he's done this sort of work. He's still
homeless, he says, but now he's an author and he's doing a lot
of other stuff. Well, he went back to Area fifty one to take
some video just for old times sakes, he says, and that he got
harassed by the security guards, and the video is really funny. So he's
there and he's on he says, you know, non you know, he's
not on the base. So he's on this side of the signs, and
you see this truck and as soon as he puts his camera on the truck,
the truck kind of backs up and hides behind this bush. And it's
really ridiculous. Like I wrote in my story about it, it reminds me
of the cats. You know, how a cat will kind of hide its
head and think that it's hidden and you can see its entire body. It's
that sort of thing. So it's really silly. So then he decided to
trick him and he went and he parked and he walked up this hill so
and they sure enough followed, but then he backtracked on the other side of
the hill, came around behind these guys in their truck and he's filming and
he's kind of giggling as he's sneaking up on him, and he gets like
really close to the truck. He's practically right in front of the truck before
they notice. They're just kind of blabbing away. It looks like holding a
conversation and talking when he comes around, and finally they spot him and one
of them jumps out of the truck and says, hey, you want me
to take that camera and he runs away and he's like, you can't take
my camera, and he said that he kept running and they went their way
and he went his. But the video is just hilarious. It should have
up any Hill soundtrack behind it. But it's really good. I think that
people will have a lot of fun and you can check it out and you
get a close look at those cool trucks that they drive that you see up
on the hill when you go to visit the roads going to the area fifty
one. So that is for the listener. That video will be linked right
in our show notes, which we'll bring you over to Open Minds dot tv
and you can watch that. And I'm multipard to watching that myself. Yeah,
it's a lot of fun. You've got to see it. You love
you'll love it. Yeah. Otherwise, in UFO news, actually we wrote
a lot of stuff about triangles. There's been a lot of triangular UFOs scene
in the news lately, and so this is kind of interesting. So the
first story I wanted to mention is this gentleman with a military background. He
says that he was formerly a Navy rescue and so he knows aircraft warning lights.
But he had seen some strange lights at about eight pm on June eleventh
that he could not explain. He got a little bit of video of them,
and you see these three lights that are in a triangular formation, kind
of blinking strangely, kind of an odd video. It's a pretty short video,
but he was able to get a video of this, and he's just
saying that you know, he thinks it's really weird. He doesn't know what
it was. And this was in North Carolina, and the story that Roger
Marsh had written about this, he noted that he had contacted Sanford Davis,
who is the mof On Carolina North Carolina Investigator, who looked at it and
he had closed it as an unknown he couldn't figure out what it was,
and that there was another sighting soon after, just a few days later in
the same area. Davis suggested that perhaps it was military and some kind of
black project, perhaps a variation of the Astra TR three B, which there
is no evidence exists. But it's kind of a mythology out there. But
still, you know, it's certainly possible and there are I know, for
a fact, we have found inklings of triangular shaped secret aircraft that is out
there. So there's something, whether or not it's an unconventional in nature that
to be foreseen. However, there were another couple of triangular sightings that Roger
had written about it open mindstat TV. One of the more recent ones was
around Kansas City, and this was a very bright light that someone had seen
on August fourteenth. It was coming towards them it was going slowly and it
was or it was moving fast and very close to the ground. So this
person says, at first it was in the direction of the airport, so
they didn't think much of it. Then they parked because it looked like this
was a airplane that was about to crash, so they parked to take a
look at it, and it got closer and closer, and the light actually
zoomed overhead, and that's when this person could see it was actually three lights
in a triangular formation. So that was kind of a weird story. Now
due if that one in particular made any noise, great question. It did
not make any noise. That's why they thought it was a plane crashing because
there were no engine sound, just a swooshing of air, they said,
moving through the air. You know, it's funny. A lot of times
you never hear of anybody even saying that, yeah you're right, Yeah,
yeah, you're right, which is odd a real word. Actually they used
swish swish alike. Ah okay, So I haven't googled that to find if
it's a real word. I don't think it is. But you know what's
funny these days, I don't I don't think there's an age I remember growing
up. It was not like this. When there were there was words added
to the dictionary, it would be a big deal. There'd be a news
story, you know, you'd see all about it. There'd just be a
couple it would be controversial. These days, they're adding you know, words
like crazy, like every word someone makes up so that it's shorter for them
to tweet it, it gets in the dictionary. So I'm sure if we
start using swish in fact, especially if we started hashtaging it, we can
get it in the dictionary in no time. I think we should. We
should get on this and get it done. One last triangular UFO sighting I
wanted to talk about was seen at on August nineteenth, and this is in
the Austin, Texas area. This one's a little more exciting because it was
six forty four am, so it was during daylight hours. And this was
a guy who says he was outside and looking at a squirrel on an apartment
rooftop, which kind of reminds that that's like me in the morning. My
brain takes forever to warm up, so I'm like a zombie. And that's
like about as much input as I can kind of comprehend. In the morning,
I can see myself sitting there in the morning watching a squirrel, you
know, like a dog, just watching it going back and forth. But
anyway, I think that's what I'm guessing that's what this guy was doing,
trying to wake up in the morning. He's watching the squirrel run around,
and then beyond the squirrel, he noticed a triangular shaped object that he said
was coming towards him at a high rate of speed. He said. What
was interesting is that the body of the object appeared transparent, like it was
changing colors. It actually flew over him. He said it was cloudy,
and he estimated the clouds were around thirteen thousand feet, so he thinks this
was a bit lower than that because he could see it. But yeah,
the strange object, he felt was kind of stealthy, even had some kind
of color changing properties that zoomed right over his head. Wow, Well is
that it for this week? That's it for this week? Triangles on parade,
I know. And it seemed like there are a couple of stories we
had the week before, more and more and more. Yeah, a lot
of triangular sightings, so really interesting stuff. And I have heard from David
Marler and I should get back to him. Um he of course, it's
a guy who wrote a book on triangles that I would recommend. You've had
him on your show's I guess he's got some new stuff out there too,
so yeah, yeah stuff. All right, Well, thanks very much and
we'll be talking to you next week. All right, talk to you soon,
buddy. All right, quick music break right here, we'll be right
back with Dawn Ecker. That music is by a fan in Ireland, carry
Lloyd Whitehouse. Thanks for that, Carrie. And before we bring Don and
just quickly, I'm going to be at the Experiencers Speak in Portland, Maine
this coming Friday night and Saturday, and hope to see you there'd be if
you're listening to the show, please come find me. I'll be around up.
I think Saturday it might have a podcast UFO T shirt on. I'm
not sure, but anyway, hope to hang out with you. And also
we have a phone number here six three nine six seven four zero three zero
for calling. Make a note of that if you would, or if you
want to skype ind It's Marty Willis m A rt Y W I L L
I s Don Ecker, How are you fine? How about you? Martin?
Great? And you are what I call a seasoned person. You've been
at this a long time, and you have an interesting background. For the
person that may not know you, I'm sure a lot or most do.
But can you fill us in with your background and what your interest was,
how you started having an interest in UFOs and alike. Well, my interest
in UFOs actually went goes back to when I was, excuse me, a
teenager. I had a rather exciting sighting in December of nineteen sixty six.
I'm originally from the East Coast from Pennsylvania. I live in California now,
but in December, especially during that period of time, I was in high
school and I was on a deer hunting trip with four friends. When we
were coming back late in the afternoon, we were overflown by four brilliant arc
light type lights and one of my friends saw them first and yelled and we
all jumped turned around. And these lights where and they were not low.
They were probably I'm going to guess, somewhere between twelve fifteen thousand feet perhaps,
but they were striking, I mean just absolutely striking, and as they
overflew us, the one light in the rear. They originally were in a
diamond formation, suddenly shot straight up in the sky. So that's when I
knew that there was As far as I was concerned, you bet there was
something to the phenomenon. So I guess it was in nineteen eighty two,
although I was not then consciously aware of it, but I was a criminal
investigator, a policeman, and I had been called out to This was in
the state of Idaho. I had been called out on an agricultural crime.
I had been sent out because a farmer had reported a dead cow, one
of his cattle, that was only maybe thirty five yards or so from the
rear of his house. In other words, it had happened literally on top
of his house, and it was a classic mutilation. And the guy had
several kids, he was married, he had a couple full of dogs.
Nothing had alerted any of the dogs or himself or his family when this happened,
apparently sometime during the night. So that case was never solved, and
it wasn't until a number of years later. I was wounded in line of
duty, ended up medically retiring in nineteen eighty six, and the following year
while I was going through physical rehab. To keep myself busy, I bought
my first computer system. Well that's early nineteen eighty six seven, Yeah,
that's pretty early. And then I compounded that error Martin by buying a modem,
and I discovered compu served to the two six dollars forty cents an hour
at three hundred boad. Okay, now, if you don't know what three
hundred bought is, you're lucky. That was like chiseling, you know,
chiseling words into a chunk of granite watching them scroll across your screen. But
at any rate, I came across a forum on CompuServe called the Issues form,
and there were a number of files in there on various things like UFOs
cases that at that time were current, and some cattle mutilation files. And
suddenly the light went on in my head and I said, oh my god,
that's apparently what I had been involved in. So that that's basically how
I got my start. Well, you know, there's a there really is
a weird subject, a weird Another weird thing to look into is the whole
cattle mutilations. You know, that's come up a couple of times on shows
in the past, and and you know, there's some people that have done
some great research and I thought Linda moul Molton Howe way back when, did
a really good, you know, a documentary on that, and a few
other people haven't investigated it, and some people it comes back to a lot
of people are still saying, you know, this is a people that are
doing this. This is um. You know, it all comes back to
um. It's kind of unexplainable. If you ask me, the incisions,
the precision of all the things that are done on these animals. Now you
actually saw this with your own eye. So what was that like? Well,
I didn't know what it was at the time. It was obvious that
it was that it was intentionally done by someone or something. Now, you
know, you bring up a very interesting point because this is something that I
have I have rest time and time again. If this were a human agency
that was conducting these mutilations. Okay, you're talking about a national or even
international consortium that would have to be doing this. Why do I say that,
Well, it's not located to one just one small geographic area. This
has been nationwide. It has stretched literally from the states of Washington and Oregon
and Idaho and Nevada and Montana and Utah and Oklahoma and Texas, I mean
all across the United States. And in all the years that those cases have
been reported, and we're going back fifty sixty or more years. Here's the
one thing to keep in mind. No one has ever been arrested or successfully
prosecuted. Now, I was a law enforcement agent out here in the West,
and let me tell you, when you're talking about ranchers and farmers that
have cattle, you're talking about huge financial investments and very protective too. And
these guys and women will not brook any interference with their with their animals,
and that includes going out with lethal weapons, with rifles, shotguns to defend
and protect their animals. And you know, this is just something that I
could never fathom would be able to be carried on as long as it could.
And if this were a human agencies, someone not get shot or arrested
or prosecuted. And it just hasn't happened. I think I've heard the theory
from someone that it is a government of the government is checking to see what
nuclear I mean, radiation affects are having on you know, biological entities like
you know animals in areas and that's why they're doing it. But that I'm
sure you've heard that one too. It makes it doesn't make any sense to
me. Well, that's not to say that it may have never happened.
That is certainly it's not something I would throw out, but it is not
the only answer. It can't be right. And you know, what are
your thoughts on it? I mean, you know a lot of people think
it's tied to the UFO, you know, to extraterrestrial of I mean,
it's to me, I think it's just one of those unexplainables. I don't
know. And in your research that you have done where there are a number
of cases where there was a UFO sighting at the same time or ahead of
time. Sure, sure, now, I you know, back when I
was active and for the first I'm going to say four or five years that
I was involved with UFO magazine, that is what my research was known for
was mutilations, not only animal mutilations, but also human mutilations. And I
wrote a number of papers that can still be found on the web about that.
This is when I was when I was daily, I was really dwelve
delving into this into this subject. Now, the various theories that I have
heard over all those years are Legion, for example, one of the people
that that I knew very well and I had a lot of chats with him.
As a matter of fact, I interviewed him on my first in the
pages of UFO Magazine when my wife and I were publishing that, and also
when I began my broadcast career back in nineteen ninety one. Okay, I
had him on the radio with me. Was noted author and fourteen researcher John
Keel now Keel back in the sixties and seventies, was a prolific author.
I'm sure you're aware of him, right, Yes, had written a book
that when I first read about it in the mid nineteen seventies, I immediately
went out to my local bookstore ordered to copy. It was titled The Mothman
Prophecies because as the case that he was talking about took place not very far
from where I grew up at in central western Pennsylvania. The case took place
in Point Pleasant, West Virginia and the Ohio Valley, which, as the
crow flies, was pretty close to me. And I can recall at the
time that this was ongoing hearing about it in the news because people were seeing
a cryptozoological apparently a cryptozoological creature that they called the mothman down in that area.
And this creature was involved in scores of cases of missing dogs. I
mean, and some of this stuff is going to sound pretty crazy, but
I got this directly from Keel and he was still at that time when I
was talking to him, was still flummixed by what he had encountered during that
period of time. Talk about strange occurrences. And I think about it today,
and I'll be honest, it still can give me a chill when I
think about it. But this creature and the events that were happening during that
period of time included, among other things, not only missing animals, live
stock and what have you, domesticated pets, but also mutilations. And we're
talking about animal, you know, cows, We're talking about stuff like that.
Now, Keil had a very interesting theory and he bounced it off me.
I didn't know what to think about it, and as a matter of
fact, he had written about it in his book Man. But he although
originally considered UFOs to be potentially extraterrestrial, finally came to the conclusion that they
were not extraterrestrial, he coined the term ultra terrestrial. Now, what does
that in affect mean? He thought they were interdimensional? Now to me,
okay, alien is alien is alien, all right, whether it comes from
another star system or another dimension or another universe. I mean, I don't
see, you know what the semantics matter, you know, if you're talking
about something that is coming here from somewhere else. But Kiel came up with
the theory that these ultra terrestrials, with all this missing biological material, animals,
blood, various other items that you know were missing and involved in these
cases, that perhaps these entities were using them to construct biological entities to be
able to operate in our domain here in our universe, in our on our
planet. Now. One of the things that he used to support his theory
were tales of the infamous Men in Black, the MIBs. Now, at
that period of time, the mi ibs were not you know, Will Smith
and Tommy Tommy Lee Jones. They were actually terrifying entities that often showed up
in the event the aftermath of UFO cases, and in one famous case that
Keel talked about in his book, where some people down in West Virginia that
had had a UFO sighting, and a day or two later, this monstrosity
of a looking man showed up at their door, a huge guy. He
told me he knocked on the door and they opened it up, and he
said he was there. If I remember correctly, and it's been a while
since I've read Keel's book, but he was there to find out if they
might have been heirs to somebody that had recently died. That was his excuse
for getting in the house. But his suit was ill fitting. The guy
was bald, extra pale. I mean, he could maybe passed for a
vampire. And he came in, sat down, the pants that he was
wearing rode up his leg, and I believe it was the wife noticed what
appeared to be a green wire or cable that was inserted into his leg.
Now, you know, when you hear stories like that, I mean,
sure, at first, blush, you go, oh bullshit, you know,
But the fact that the matter was that this was not the only case
where something like that happened. And you know, when the individual finally left
their house and he walked outside, he almost immediately disappeared. Gone, I
mean gone, okay, just like he vanished in the thin air. So
there was something with a high degree of strangeness that was going on down there
that Keel had chronicled, and of course he wrote, oh my lord.
He wrote a number of books where he talked about cases like this, and
that's basically where he was coming from and his explanation for why they might have
been mutilating these animals and taking other items like blood. Now, I heard
another theory back then about the missing blood, and this was one of the
staples in mutilation cases, especially with cattle. If it was a genuine mutilation,
almost invariably, the blood would seemingly disappear. It was exanguinated from the
carcass. And there were stories that were floating around and even made it into
the pages of numerous newspapers that there was a process where bulvine blood, cattle
blood okay, could be used the plasma at any rate in the event of
a national emergency, all right, this could be used as a blood substitute.
So there were a lot of people with a lot of theories on what
this all may have been, But those were just a couple of them that
I came across in the years well Now let's talk about your background as in
law enforcement, because I'm sure that really helped you with all the type of
the research you did in the following years. Yeah, sure it did.
And is that how you conduct Did you conduct these cases that you were researching
basically the same way as you would and your profession absolutely absolutely over the years,
you know, I mean that that's one knack if I if I can,
you know, be so specific that I always thought was of great benefit
to me over the years. I've interviewed and investigated hundreds and I'm not just
talking about UFOs. I'm talking about when I was involved in criminal investigations cases,
uh where you know, we we would go out, we would be
looking for a perpetrator to a crime and they the crimes ranged from narcotics to
uh thefts, robberies, homicides, rapes. Uh. You know, it's
it's just the whole spectrum of the types of things that you know, the
cops come across every day. And I'm not going to say I was a
hundred percent always on the money, but I could generally tell if somebody were
trying to spin a story on me. And when it came to the UFO
field, that was generally a great benefit. I'll never forget back when Vicky,
my wife Vicky, who was the founder of UFO magazine, and I
were publishing. We were our offices were in Sunland, California, and I
had a very good friend. As a matter of fact, I knew many
of the people in media, television, and the film industry. Over the
years, we knew a lot of them. And a friend of mine who
was a television producer who at that time was working on a documentary on the
UFO topic and I had been una, you know, I had been contributing
to his process, called me up and said, don He said, You're
not going to believe this, He said, but I just came across a
guy who was out in the California desert close to the Nevada border. And
there's a very famous area out there, Martin called Zizis Road, Okay,
and it's a very spooky spot. And a number of years ago, excuse
me, my very close friend and Friday night co host on my radio show
Rich Saturday and I had gone over to Nevada to Las Vegas on a thing
that we were doing some investigation on, and on the way back we had
a rather amazing sighting. We had pulled off on this Zizis road for a
comfort stop, okay, and we had an amazing UFO sighting out there.
This was in the middle of the night, and you know, in the
desert it was. It was rather extraordinary. But at any rate, my
producer friend told me about this guy that lived out in that area. So
I said, well, Russ, I said, what was the story.
What did the guy tell you? He said, well, he didn't just
tell me. He said, he gave me a photograph. And I said,
of what he said, Well, this is what the guy claimed.
He said, he was sitting in his living room and he was watching TV,
and he had his polaroid camera. There was a polaroid photograph by the
way, you know, the instematic thing shot and it would slip out in
a minute or so later you'd have a photo. And he said, while
he was sitting there, he thought he could feel eyes upon him. And
he said he turned around and looked out the window and he said, what
he told me, Don was that there was a gray alien out there staring
at him through the window. And he grabbed the camera and he took a
picture of it. Well, I gotta tell you. My BS indicator started
clanging, but I said, okay, I mean, you never want to
go into any any situation Martin, if you're an honest, legitimate researcher,
investigator and allow your preconceived notions, okay, to control what you do.
I mean, that's not what an investigator does. Now, you may have
suspicions, and believe me, when I heard that story, I did,
but you follow it through to conclusion. So my buddy said, I'll bring
the photo over to you, and I said, okay, so sure enough
a Dare's. So later he showed up at our offices, came in and
he handed me this photograph and I looked at it and it was kind of
a blurry image, and yeah, it sure looked like a gray but that
wasn't all on the picture. It looked like somebody had vomited on this photograph
and then wiped it off. I kid you not. So I looked at
Russ and I said, Russ, I said, what is that stuff?
He said, Well, he said when he was eating a bowl of cereal.
This is what he told me. He was eating a bowl of cereal
and when he first looked at the photograph, he said, he was so
shocked that he went and he blew cereal on it. So we took that
photograph and Russ had some equipment. I had some equipment. We started examining
this and I said, well, I want to talk to this guy,
and he said, well, he said he didn't want to talk to you.
He said, I told him that I was going to bring it over
to you, but he doesn't want to talk to you. And I said
why not, Well, he doesn't want the notoriety. Oh okay. So
we examined this photograph and there was a magazine that somebody had sent us at
the ufoofses. And this magazine was a professional oil industry magazine, okay,
for the oil industry. Now, the reason they sent us the magazine was
because inside this issue, okay, they had a full page ad. Now
remember this, we're talking about ninety two ninety three. UFOs were still fresh,
exciting. Every week on television you could find three to five six programs
with the UFO theme. I mean, it was really the the wrench that
was driving the media scene back then. Shows like Oprah Winfrey, Larry King
Live, you know, inside edition, sightings, encounters, a hard copy,
all these programs continuously for almost a decade ran UFO topics every week,
So a lot of people were excited about it, and a lot of you
know, a lot of chatter was was out there in TV land. Well,
this oil industry magazin Scene had this full page ad which used the UFO
et theme in this ad, and I mean they had on the photograph a
large representation of a typical gray alien. And I looked at that picture I'm
talking about in the magazine, and I looked at this photograph that Russ had
brought to me, and they were identical. This guy was trying to float
a hoax where he apparently had a copy of that cut the alien out of
it. Okay, then through some screens or something, shot this polaroid photograph
and I mean, you know, those are the kind of things that you
run into all the time. But we were able to bust it at the
source. And then I had my answer why this guy didn't even want to
talk to me on the telephone, much less meet me. So wow,
that's the kind of stuff that we would do, and uh, you know,
we would bust Yeah, Well, that that is an amazing one.
And let's talk about when you had the magazine. What that was like,
I mean that that is grueling with deadlines and everything, isn't it. Oh
yeah, yeah, sure was. But I'll tell you it was one of
the jobs, the few jobs in my life that I actually I looked forward
to bouncing out of bed in the morning and going to work because it was
fascinating. Not only did I get a chance to meet literally people from all
over the globe, all around the world, okay, but some of the
most fascinating cases and some of the most fascinating hoaxes you could ever hope to
encounter. H wow. And so this is going back, um, you
know, kind of like during the birth of the internet about that same time,
isn't it. So? Oh yeah yeah, And you know I'd like
to talk, Um, I don't know if it's going to be this hour
next hour about you know, all the UFO hoaxes on YouTube. It's almost,
um, it's almost I've talked to actually other old, longtime researchers about
this and forming a group that would basically call out hoaxes, and that would
be that would be very difficult to do, especially these days as we've all
been watching technology grow and grow and CGI and um. And then in today's
world, it's harder and harder, is what I'm I'm getting. Here's the
bottom line on a lot of that. Yes, you are correct, the
CGI today is in some cases almost distinguishable from reality. But here's something else,
and I've heard very few people mentioned this. Okay. I was involved
in a case back in the very late nineteen eighties, very very early nineteen
nineties that in that was involved and ended up being the F one seventeen stealth
Fighter case. All right. Now, one of the people that I knew
then and was an invaluable source of technology was a guy that worked for Aerojet,
an aerospace company out here in southern California. And this guy had a
bee up his bonnet about the UFO thing, and he was continuously snowing the
DoD and the Air Force and other government agencies including the CIA and the NSA
with FOYA requests. I mean a literal snowstorm that went on for years.
And this was a case that I broke in the pages of UFO Magazine and
on my original radio show UFOs Tonight, which was on the CRN network.
Okay, And what they did, they, being the government, set this
guy up with an Air Force general in Communicato, and an FBI agent came
to his place of business, deliberately exposed him to classified information that he did
not have a need to know, and then tried to get him fired.
Okay, Now it involved the F one seventeen, just before the F one
seventeen went public, So I guess they felt safe in doing that. Now,
this is the kind of stuff, the red meat that I sunk my
teeth in. Now, when I was in the military, okay, I
was a Vietnam veteran. I was in the military. I was involved in
military intelligence. I had a top secret clearance with a crypto access. Now,
all that meant was in the course of my duties, if I had
a need to know certain classified in information, I could be given that classified
information because it was involved in whatever it was I was doing. However,
if I did not have a need to know, then that TSC. Clarence
meant no more to me than it would do you. Okay. In other
words, if I didn't have a need to know, I wouldn't be shown
the information. Zach cut and dried. Now, the F one seventeen was
actually an aircraft that had its development all the way back in the nineteen seventies.
Now, my point is that aircraft technology, what we see flying around
in the skies any day of the week. Okay, if you think that
that is the cutting edge that aerospace is working on, then I'm going to
let you go back to your correspondence with the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus,
because anything that we see flying the cutting edge, and you can take this
to the bank, is at least thirty years or more in advance of what
you're seeing. My god, the SR seventy one, the Blackbird, Okay,
the aircraft that I used to watch flying out of Okinawa, Okay to
go to North Vietnam, China, Korea, Okay, was an aircraft that's
still today. Officially it's speed record or its height that it could fly at
has never been broken, although I'm sure it has. But officially this aircraft
is still faster, higher than anything else flying that was developed in the nineteen
fifties. Now do you honestly believe that that was the cutting edge? I
mean, and that was all the way back then what we have today.
For all I know, they're working on an interstellar drive. You see what
I'm saying. So what we see in the sky today, it's really hard
to make that distinction between what we could be flying and what somebody else is
flying. Now, I heard what your co host there at the beginning of
the program was talking about triangles craft flying around, lots of them. There
have been triangle craft that has been flying around for thirty plus years in the
skies above the United States and other places around the world. And these craft
and I was still fifteen years ago on good authority that these were extremely advanced
military flying machines that the US Armed Forces were flying. Now, is that
the bottom line? No, of course not. Perhaps they saw something in
the sky at one point and they tried to emulate it. I mean that's
always possible. Also, but anything that you see flying that you think might
be alien, well, you know, these days, it's really hard to
say, right. The one thing that is very puzzling. Of course,
you can hear people talk about they've already discovered an anti gravity vehicle. That's
why that's not making any noise. But that is the curious thing is a
lot of people that talk about these triangles that see them fairly close. I'll,
as far as I know, mostly say that they hear no noise at
all. Yeah, well, I mean that I'm not surprised by that.
I mean the technology. Look look at our defense budget yearly, and I'm
talking about I'm talking about what is publicly discussed. I'm not talking about the
black budget. Okay, that is explained away with five thousand dollars toilet seats
and thirty five hundred dollars hammers, you know, and a thousand dollars screwdriver.
You know what I'm saying. Right, So you know what the black
budget? I mean. I go, I go all the way back to
nineteen eighty eight, when George Knapp broke the first story on Area fifty one
publicly okay, and the Bob Lazar saga. Okay, what Lazarre claim was
out there in those mountains in underground hangars. Is something like that possible?
Well, as far as I'm concerned, you bet it's possible, all right.
And I was involved with that story almost since the very beginning of it.
And I couldn't tell you how many times I've talked to Nap and also
Lazarre about that particular story. But the bottom line to take away from that,
whether you believe it or not, is the fact that if the government
had their hands on something. Believe me, that's how they would do it
very well. Could be, you know, up on the message board,
it's going to be changing gears a little and then we're almost at the top
of the hour. We got about six or seven minutes or something like that.
But someone wanted to find out what your relationship is or was with the
Burns. They number of people were asking on the chat room, what do
you mean? That's I don't know exactly what they're talking about. I guess
I had to do with the UFO magazine. How did you change? You
sold that basically or got out of it and they took it over. No,
No, okay, I got that wrong. I'm sorry. Go ahead.
Nineteen nineteen ninety seven. My wife and I okay, after eleven years
of publishing the magazine, we ran into financial problems. Now, the publishing
game is a very hard game, okay, And you've got to have a
lot of income because the money that you're making is not the money from the
last issue published. Okay, You get a magazine out, all right,
It goes out to the distributors, then it goes out to wherever the subscribers.
It goes out to the places where it's distributed, and you don't see
any money of that for at least the next two to three issues, So
you're always running on fumes. You see what I'm saying. Oh yeah,
the bottom line. The bottom line was by ninety seven we were financially at
the breaking point. Now we knew Bill Burns. Bill was very interested in
not seeing UFO magazine. Wonder. He introduced us to some media people in
the Hollywood arena. Okay, so we took some meetings with them, went
down and they took over the publication all right, and kept Vicky on as
the editor. I was on as the director of research. Bill was listed
as a publisher, although at that time he did not have any financial considerations
in it. Well, they kept it up for five years. And incidentally,
these people, even though Vicky, my wife and I had been heading
this for ten to eleven years all right, never wanted any input from us,
not any input. I couldn't tell you how many times we would go
in there with some ideas to do this, that or something else and we
get shot down. So I said, fine, you know that's I mean,
they're they're footing the bills okay, let them do it. Well,
after five years, they basically said, well, we've lost too much money.
We're going to shut the magazine down. However, if you and Vicky
and Bill and his wife want to take it over, will allow you to
keep publishing. Well, we did up until about two thousand and six.
However, up to that point it was becoming increasingly harder and harder to work
with Bill and his wife Nancy, and quite frankly, Nancy and I had
clashed on a couple of occasions over inconsequential things. I'm not going to go
into that. But finally I just had my fill of it. My wife,
after twenty years, had her fill of it, and we bailed out.
Okay in two thousand and six, the very beginning of two thousand and
seven, and the Burns took it on. They were going to be the
sole publishers. Well, they kept missing deadlines and the copy of the magazine
for the next few issues. They didn't have any proofreaders, or if they
did, they were missing stuff all the time. In the proofing of the
magazine. There were a lot of egregious errors that popped up. And here
was the other thing. As you can tell I was pretty factually oriented,
and I gave short shrift to a lot of these well, let me let
me think of a very polite way to say it, these pie in the
sky unicorn searching so called UFO researchers, and they began running a lot of
copy in the magazine that I found particularly offensive. And when I say offensive,
I'm talking about cases that had been disproven years before that suddenly started popping
up. Now. I attributed that to the fact that Bill was an academic.
Okay, Nancy, who really fancied herself as an ACE publisher, just
quite simply didn't know the field like Vicky and I had, and they would
have things in there routinely, like the Dulce Bass shootout. Now, that's
a story that goes back basically to Paul Benowitz, which could be a whole
show or series of shows in itself where this poor guy was disinformed to the
point where he ended up in a mental hospital by government disinformation agents. And
I don't say that in a throwaway manner. I'm talking about actual information agents,
all right, one of them named Rick Dody, who was with a
FOSI at the time. Now, these cases were proven hoaxes, but they
were now making it in the pages of UFO magazine. And I got to
be honest too, I was not quiet about it, all right. When
something like that would happen, I probably should have kept my mouth shut,
but I couldn't, okay, because I saw what had been our baby going
to hell. And then Nancy decided to take a year off and not publish
the magazine, even though they were still taking subscriptions, okay from people that
were expecting a magazine. She took a year off to write a novel,
and not long after that the whole thing folded. So there it is,
Well a nutshell. Thank you for that, don And we're right at the
top of the hour. We're going to take a break here in a second.
In the second hour, I'd like to talk to you more about how
a lot of times the myths become seeming realities and why people get fed up
in this field. I want to talk about that in the second hour.
So that's it for the first hour. If you're listening to the podcast,
you can support the show and listen to the whole show and arcs of past
full shows for only a dollar a month or more. That information is right
on our website PODCASTUFO dot Com. We appreciate every listener regardless. If you
just like listening to the first hour, that's fine too, and we'll be
back next week with Ray Hernandez. I want to thank some people today,
Don Ecker for being the guest, Keith Roland for helping us out with the
live show, Peggy Shunning for managing the Facebook page and if you want to
join twenty three thousand or so like minded people like us on Facebook. And
also we have the latest UFO news going up there all the time and related
stories. Again. I'll be at the Experiencers Speak this coming weekend in Portland,
Maine. I hope a listener or two will join me there. That
would be a lot of fun. And I want to thank Carrie Lloyd Whitehouse
for the music Almost Forgot. And that's it for the show and we'll be
back next week same time. Thanks and keep your eyes to the sky.