1 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:17,280 This is a studio both and production. Before we start the show, I 2 00:00:17,359 --> 00:00:21,760 have a few announcements. You may have noticed that the Kelly Cochrane season is 3 00:00:21,839 --> 00:00:28,679 no longer available. Well that's because it's now its own podcast called The Pact, 4 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:33,880 and it will begin re airing in its entirety on Wednesdays starting March fifteenth. 5 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:39,000 You can subscribe to The Pact now wherever you get your podcasts. Additionally, 6 00:00:39,119 --> 00:00:42,920 I've added two new stops to my twenty twenty three tour. I'll be 7 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,960 joining a handful of other true crime shows for a live event in Birmingham, 8 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:51,600 Alabama, at the wild Rose Cafe on May sixth. Tickets will go on 9 00:00:51,679 --> 00:00:56,719 sale soon, so follow Truecrime bs on Instagram for more details. I'll also 10 00:00:56,799 --> 00:01:00,359 be at the True Crime and Paranormal Festival in Austin, Texas, this on 11 00:01:00,399 --> 00:01:03,599 August twenty fifth through the twenty seventh. For tickets and more information, go 12 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:10,239 to Truecrime Podcast Festival dot com. The festival will include live shows, panels, 13 00:01:10,359 --> 00:01:14,239 conversations, and one on one time with some of your favorite podcasts, 14 00:01:14,519 --> 00:01:19,799 including Murder She Told, Crime Lines, The Trail Went Cold, The Peripheral 15 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:23,560 True Crime Cases with Laney, The Defense Diaries, and more. And as 16 00:01:23,599 --> 00:01:29,000 a reminder, I'm heading to the West coast this weekend. You can catch 17 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:33,400 me in Albuquerque on March fifth for the True Crime Live event featuring me, 18 00:01:33,799 --> 00:01:38,920 Crime Lines, True Crime Cases with Laney Already Gone, and True Consequences at 19 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,280 the Rico Bravo Brewing Company. To buy tickets, go to Truecrime Bullshit dot 20 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:47,480 com and click events. Following that, I'll be doing an informal meet up 21 00:01:47,519 --> 00:01:52,480 in Las Vegas on March seventh at six thirty at Atomic Liquors, and another 22 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:57,239 in Los Vila's LA at seven pm on March eighth, and finally a third 23 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:01,760 at Churchill in the Castro District of Francisco from four to six on March twelfth. 24 00:02:01,879 --> 00:02:07,319 And finally, TCB has new merch available for pre order. We have 25 00:02:07,359 --> 00:02:12,159 an updated It's Too Early for This Bullshit coffee cup, a True Crime Bullshit 26 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:16,199 puzzle, and a Smells Like Bullshit to Me candle. To pre order now, 27 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:21,680 go to Truecrime Bullshit dot com and click shop. And now for the 28 00:02:21,719 --> 00:02:29,719 show that trip when you when we into Vermont, you flew into Chicago and 29 00:02:29,719 --> 00:02:31,240 you know these guys are you know, kind of mapping it out. You 30 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:35,680 flew into Chicago, you rented a car, you drove through Burlington, and 31 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,960 eventually you went up to Maine and he came back. What was the total 32 00:02:39,039 --> 00:02:42,199 length of that trip? You don't know. If you get they might know. 33 00:02:42,319 --> 00:02:52,159 But how long were you out of Alaska? U A couple of weeks, 34 00:02:52,199 --> 00:02:59,319 maybe ten days? I don't know for sure. Since it was related, 35 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:01,879 you know, to that trip at the couriers. Should should these guys 36 00:03:01,879 --> 00:03:13,759 be looking for other criminal activity during that time? Um? No, no, 37 00:03:14,159 --> 00:03:22,319 no, you're not just saying that to No. I can't say you're 38 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:23,960 not looking at me. I can't tell you usually look at me, adal 39 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:29,080 or anything else that they should be looking at. Or you can tell me 40 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:30,319 you don't want to tell me, but you aren't looking at me. So 41 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:36,360 I wasn't sure you wanted to answer that or not. No, there's there 42 00:03:36,439 --> 00:03:38,479 I mean, there's not anything else I want to talk about. Okay, 43 00:03:38,479 --> 00:03:43,759 Well that's that's different answer than saying there's nothing to it. Right, Yeah, 44 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:49,560 Well no, I said I would tell back to where the curt couriers 45 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:53,560 happened. You're not gonna blame us for asking, right, No, that's 46 00:03:53,599 --> 00:04:00,400 fine, Okay, this is true crime bullshit. I'm your host Josh Hallmark 47 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:17,639 and this is a serialized story of Israel Keys. In order to fully discuss 48 00:04:17,759 --> 00:04:23,519 Israel Keys and Indiana in two thousand and eleven, we first need to look 49 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:28,920 at Indiana in two thousand and seven, when Heide Keys reportedly first arrived in 50 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:34,519 the Harlan area. Their varying reports on Heidi's time in Indiana, but what 51 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:39,360 we know is that she and at least three of her daughters arrived there in 52 00:04:39,439 --> 00:04:43,920 early two thousand and seven. Haid he joined what is now referred to as 53 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:49,399 a post Amish church created by former Amish members. She worked as a health 54 00:04:49,439 --> 00:04:55,399 home nurse and seems to have lived in three different places and bounced between two 55 00:04:55,480 --> 00:05:00,160 different churches in the New Haven, Harlan, and Gravel areas of Indiana. 56 00:05:00,319 --> 00:05:04,639 We know that Keys visited Heidi at least five different times while she was living 57 00:05:04,639 --> 00:05:10,480 in Northeast Indiana between early two thousand and seven and January of two thousand and 58 00:05:10,519 --> 00:05:15,120 twelve, once in early December of two thousand and seven, the trip we 59 00:05:15,199 --> 00:05:19,399 discussed in the last episode, again around Christmas of two thousand and eight. 60 00:05:20,079 --> 00:05:25,480 We believe this trip actually occurred the first two weeks of January two thousand and 61 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:30,920 nine, immediately prior to and following the courier's abduction and murder in June of 62 00:05:30,959 --> 00:05:38,120 two thousand eleven, and in either late August or early September of that same 63 00:05:38,199 --> 00:05:43,920 year. But there's also reason to believe he was in Indiana at least three 64 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:49,319 other times, in late summer of two thousand and ten, at some point 65 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:54,399 in two thousand and nine, and in April of two thousand and eight. 66 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,199 And we'll get into those two thousand and ten and two thousand nine trips in 67 00:05:59,199 --> 00:06:02,240 a future episode, but for the purpose of this episode, I want to 68 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:06,600 focus on the potential April two thousand and eight trip because it would not only 69 00:06:06,639 --> 00:06:16,680 place Keys in Indiana, but in Bloomington, Indiana. Earlier this year, 70 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:20,720 I talked with a listener named Marina who had an encounter with a man that 71 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:26,920 they believe was israel Keys in April of two thousand and eight, just several 72 00:06:26,959 --> 00:06:35,480 miles north of Bloomington, Indiana, So I know that this happened during Little 73 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:41,439 five. I'm almost certain that it was the Sunday because in Indiana at the 74 00:06:41,439 --> 00:06:45,879 time, you couldn't buy alcohol anywhere but a winery except on Sundays, so 75 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:51,040 I think that plus the horrible nature of living in downtown Bloomington, plus the 76 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:55,639 little five is what made us be like, I have to leave, I 77 00:06:55,759 --> 00:06:59,199 have to go away. And so we went to Oliver Winery, which is 78 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:03,600 like a pretty pop you were wiry. It's it abuts the Monroe State Forest. 79 00:07:03,759 --> 00:07:09,199 It's really pretty and it was April, so it was really nice out 80 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,519 and so we, you know, like, had our wine. We were 81 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,680 sitting outside. I think we bought some to take back with us, which 82 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,360 makes sense because I know I wasn't drinking much because I drove because two of 83 00:07:18,399 --> 00:07:23,600 the people did not have driver's licenses and the other person did not have a 84 00:07:23,639 --> 00:07:28,360 car, so I know that I drove, so I wasn't drinking much. 85 00:07:28,399 --> 00:07:32,600 I was sitting outside knitting, and the three people that I was with decided 86 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:38,000 to go into the woods and smoke pot, which again I was driving. 87 00:07:38,279 --> 00:07:43,079 I'm like the biggest teetoller in the entire world, and I was just like, 88 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,439 Okay, I'm just gonna sit here and knit, and a guy comes 89 00:07:46,519 --> 00:07:49,879 up to me and starts talking to me, which again I'm like a twenty 90 00:07:49,959 --> 00:07:56,439 two year old film presenting person at this point, so I was pretty used 91 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:00,600 to like random guys coming up and being in my space and thinking that that 92 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:05,680 was like acceptable, especially in a college town. And he was like like 93 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,480 very close, like I think I was sitting on so there's like a little 94 00:08:09,519 --> 00:08:11,279 firepait area, but there's no fire pit because it was like warm, warm, 95 00:08:11,319 --> 00:08:16,839 and it wasn't dark. It was like getting darker, so maybe like 96 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:20,959 six or seven, and he was sitting like really close to me on the 97 00:08:20,959 --> 00:08:24,040 bench when there were lots of other places to sit that were not taken up 98 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:28,240 by people. So my first reaction was just like, Okay, one of 99 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:33,279 these guys. Cool. It was weird. It was really weird. He 100 00:08:33,639 --> 00:08:39,759 was asking me like if I was from Bloomington, if I was with anyone 101 00:08:39,759 --> 00:08:43,840 at the winery, would anyone notice if I had just got in a car 102 00:08:45,039 --> 00:08:48,360 and drove right now. And I was like, um, yeah, they 103 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:54,080 would actually because I have like friends who are here. And then he was 104 00:08:54,159 --> 00:08:56,600 like, well, I'm here for out of town and I'm just trying to 105 00:08:56,639 --> 00:09:01,120 get into something tonight. And I was like, oh, hey, joke. 106 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:05,480 Well we're here to like get away from the things going on. So 107 00:09:05,519 --> 00:09:07,960 if you want to find something to do, you should probably go to downtown 108 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:13,080 Bloomington, and he was like, oh, I don't know, kind of 109 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:18,519 just was looking to do something, you know, maybe more personal. And 110 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,279 I'm like, oh god, I can't. I cannot deal with this tonight. 111 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:28,519 I just I just want my my weird too sweet wine and to leave. 112 00:09:28,799 --> 00:09:33,320 And so I like try to steer off of the topic a couple of 113 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:35,399 times, like I ask if he has like friends to go to the college, 114 00:09:35,519 --> 00:09:39,559 and he's very like elusive about it, and then tells me that he's 115 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:43,679 there on a business trip, which is weird because it's Bloomington. And also 116 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:48,360 he's like dressed like a farmer, which again is not weird for Bloomington, 117 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,919 but him being there on a business trip and dressed like that at a winery 118 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:58,600 is very weird. What would you describe as dressed like a farmer? So 119 00:09:58,759 --> 00:10:03,440 there's definitely like there's donute like a farmer Indiana sort of look, which is 120 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:11,960 like Carharts but like the car hurts, but not like the full like monkey 121 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,440 suit type, like the overalls with a shirt over it. And this was 122 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:22,279 a very popular look at the time for a certain demographic that lived in Rome 123 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:26,919 and Row County, UM, So this is not unusual to see guys dressed 124 00:10:26,919 --> 00:10:31,279 like that because Bloomington's like the biggest place in the county that people go to. 125 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:35,519 Um, I believe he had like a flannel shirt over it and like 126 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,519 a wife beater under it, which I didn't think it was like out of 127 00:10:39,519 --> 00:10:43,159 the ordinary. I thought that the combination of things was weird. Yeah, 128 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:50,279 And did he say what kind of business he was on? I don't know. 129 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:54,600 I don't know. He had a bag, like a big bag, 130 00:10:54,120 --> 00:11:01,320 and like a like a big backpack, like a hiking backpack, which I 131 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:05,879 also thought, but like that's also not that weird because people carry giant backpacks 132 00:11:05,879 --> 00:11:09,799 on college towns where there's like really weird public transportation and people live in like 133 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,240 cabins in the woods. Like that's not weird, you know what I mean? 134 00:11:13,799 --> 00:11:18,519 Like, Yeah, So I don't think he told me what kind of 135 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:22,279 business he was in, or I would have tried to elaborate that on that 136 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:28,600 to do anything besides having him hit on me. But like the whole time, 137 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,759 I'm looking over my shoulder and waiting for my friends to get back, 138 00:11:31,759 --> 00:11:39,080 who are smoking apparently the biggest joint that's ever existed, because it's just like 139 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:45,279 fifteen minutes, like and it was weird. And so then after that my 140 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:50,399 friends came back and I sort of heard them coming back, and I saw 141 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,200 him get up and walked towards the door. My friends were like, who 142 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:54,840 is that? And I was like, oh, some guy who's talking to 143 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:56,639 me. They're like, oh, you should have invited him back, and 144 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:01,399 I'm like, I don't think so. I don't think that's what we should 145 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,559 have done. But then we went inside right after that, and he was 146 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:07,360 not in there, so I have no idea where he went because I didn't 147 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:13,440 see him like come back out. I didn't see him like in the parking 148 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:18,679 lot, you know, so he was just like gone. But yeah, 149 00:12:18,759 --> 00:12:22,000 I don't know. And then I tried to tell them how weird this was. 150 00:12:22,039 --> 00:12:26,320 But it was three guys that I was with, I will tell you, 151 00:12:26,399 --> 00:12:28,559 and they seemed to think that it was perfectly fine at the time, 152 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:33,879 and I certainly did not. Like I know you described body was wearing and 153 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,879 this may feel redundant, but like, what did he look like apart from 154 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:41,840 like keys, Well, he looks like this guy went to high school, 155 00:12:41,879 --> 00:12:48,799 but actually like quite a bit, and I thought that was weird. I 156 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:54,600 remember sort of a like a bigger nose, and that his hair was like 157 00:12:54,840 --> 00:13:00,200 kind of greasy, but not not like dirty greasy, like sweaty greasy and 158 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:05,159 sort of pulled back in like a lowish ponytail, bundant kind of thing. 159 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:09,320 I don't remember him having any facial hair. Do you remember about how like 160 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,679 Tally was, what his build? I'm like five to seven and he was 161 00:13:15,039 --> 00:13:18,960 quite a bit taller than me, so at least at least six feet tall. 162 00:13:18,519 --> 00:13:22,399 And you think this was April twentieth of two thousand and eight, Um, 163 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:28,440 no, we we, We kind of tracked that down a little bit. 164 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:33,120 So Little five is usually the third weekend in April, but it was 165 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:35,279 not. It was the second weekend this year, so it actually took place 166 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:41,840 the eleventh through the thirteenth. And we know this because President Obama came that 167 00:13:41,919 --> 00:13:46,960 year, and there's video of him at Little Pride during that time, at 168 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,600 Little Little Five during that time. I love it when stuff like that happens. 169 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:56,000 God boys, I was like, thanks Obama for real. Um, 170 00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:03,559 But but yeah, I'm I'm almost certain it was the Sunday because on Friday, 171 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:05,840 Thursday I had a late class, so it cannot have been Thursday. 172 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:11,720 There's definitely Little five stuff going on on Thursday too. On Friday, I 173 00:14:11,759 --> 00:14:18,120 worked at an alteration shop after school, and then Saturday and Sunday morning I 174 00:14:18,159 --> 00:14:20,200 worked at this coffee and juice bar, and I think I had to get 175 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:24,279 there at like six thirty in the morning, So I highly doubt it would 176 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:28,399 have been Saturday night because I absolutely would have been working because I wanted those 177 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:33,360 those good, good tips, so like, yeah, there would be absolutely 178 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,879 no reason, and I don't think they even would have let me request off. 179 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:39,759 So I'm almost almost certain that it was the Sunday, which extra makes 180 00:14:39,759 --> 00:14:43,000 sense because of the not being able to buy alcohol anywhere else. Yeah, 181 00:14:43,039 --> 00:14:48,960 and then just tell me about at what point you determined that this could have 182 00:14:50,039 --> 00:14:52,480 been keys, Like, I just I guess your line of thinking through all 183 00:14:52,519 --> 00:15:00,279 that. So it's weird. So I listened to I listened to the first 184 00:15:00,279 --> 00:15:07,360 two seasons of the podcast kind of like quickly and sort of like off handedly, 185 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,960 and there was something about his like constant laugh that made me really like 186 00:15:13,279 --> 00:15:18,440 Edgy. And so then it was the Kelly Cochrane season, right, and 187 00:15:18,519 --> 00:15:20,679 so I was listening to that, and she's from Indiana, so I was 188 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,840 like, Okay, this is interesting. And then the new season was coming 189 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:26,360 out, and I was like, all right, I should go back and 190 00:15:26,399 --> 00:15:31,000 re listen to these and also I should look up more information about who this 191 00:15:31,039 --> 00:15:35,360 person is, and because it was like the pandemic and I was bored, 192 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:39,360 and so I just like went on like a deep dive and I'm looking at 193 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:43,039 this picture of him and I was like, God, he looks like Adam. 194 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:48,320 Who's this guy went to high school with? And then I was like, 195 00:15:48,399 --> 00:15:56,120 oh, I remember another guy who looked like Adam in a very weird 196 00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:00,840 situation. So at this point, I don't think it was the Lauren Spear 197 00:16:00,919 --> 00:16:07,279 episode in season two, Yes, I think I don't. I don't think 198 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:11,039 I had actually listened to that episode, because I think I listened to the 199 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:12,120 Kelly Cochrane season. Then I was like, all right, I'm gonna try 200 00:16:12,159 --> 00:16:18,600 these other ones again because I like this podcast. But like, there's something 201 00:16:18,639 --> 00:16:22,039 about the FBI interviews was like very very off putting to me, So, 202 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,159 um, I don't think I listened to that, And I was like, 203 00:16:25,639 --> 00:16:29,519 I wonder if that. I was like, that surely couldn't be. And 204 00:16:29,559 --> 00:16:33,639 then I was looking at just like everything looking at the time when and then 205 00:16:33,679 --> 00:16:40,519 I saw on Reddit that someone had talked about um lawn Spear as a possible 206 00:16:40,519 --> 00:16:45,279 connection, and they said that he would have probably hidden a kill kitten Monroe 207 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:49,120 State Forest, and I was like, oh oh my, oh wow, 208 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,960 that could actually be a thing. So then, of course I listened to 209 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,000 the seasons. I listened to whatever we're calling is it season three? Now 210 00:16:56,120 --> 00:17:02,759 real? Season three? Um? So I listened to that, and then 211 00:17:03,519 --> 00:17:06,680 I asked, like, because I've told people this story before, I've told 212 00:17:06,799 --> 00:17:11,440 many many people the story before this ever happened, and I referred to it 213 00:17:11,519 --> 00:17:18,039 as the time I think I almost got abducted. And so I talked to 214 00:17:18,039 --> 00:17:18,960 people that I talked to you about that, and they're like, I mean, 215 00:17:19,759 --> 00:17:22,720 it seems right. I think you should at least tell them, And 216 00:17:22,799 --> 00:17:26,279 so I sent you a message. It was very It was a very it 217 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:32,519 was very weird. It was a very gradual realization. Okay, this is 218 00:17:32,519 --> 00:17:36,079 super helpful. Is there anything else you feel like I should know? Um? 219 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:40,960 Oh yeah? So the okay, So the phrase that sticks the most 220 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:45,240 into my mind about this is when he told me he wanted to get into 221 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:51,000 something, which is a weird phrase and not something that like people from Indiana 222 00:17:51,079 --> 00:17:55,920 say. And I always thought that that was like really weird because I didn't 223 00:17:55,960 --> 00:18:02,559 know like what the context of that was, and it felt like very unsafe. 224 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:03,839 That in that phrase was actually what made me be like, this is 225 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:08,200 an unsafe situation, this is not this is not okay. Yeah, so 226 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:14,400 that was the exact phrase. Yes, okay, that's interesting. And I 227 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,240 will say that three other people that I was with. One of them remembers 228 00:18:17,279 --> 00:18:19,640 it, but he doesn't have like he only barely saw the guy and didn't 229 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,640 have any interaction with him. And the other two people, one of them 230 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:26,880 I had like a really rough falling out within the other one I I have 231 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:29,519 no idea what happened to him after college. I think he just like quit 232 00:18:29,599 --> 00:18:33,960 social media. So I talked to the one person who I'm still in contact 233 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:37,799 with, and he remembered it happening, but was like, yeah, you're 234 00:18:37,799 --> 00:18:41,480 being really weird, and I was like, I wasn't being weird, So 235 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:45,160 but yeah, that's it I did. I checked a bunch of bunch of 236 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:49,960 stuff. I pulled my transcripts to check my class schedule, and queerly did 237 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:56,079 a bunch of deep diving into that day there. So true crime Bullshit is 238 00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:00,359 sponsored by Better Help Getting to know yourself can be a lifelong process, especially 239 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:06,000 because we're always growing and changing. Through my work with my Better Help therapist, 240 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:10,720 Jane, I've learned that my procrastination and perfectionism go hand in hand, 241 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:15,640 and Jane has given me the tools to overcome the procrastination and better manage the 242 00:19:15,759 --> 00:19:19,960 sometimes paralyzing perfectionism. And that's what therapy is all about, deepening your self 243 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:25,160 awareness and understanding, because sometimes we don't know what we want or why we 244 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:29,000 react or behave the way we do until we talk things through. And that 245 00:19:29,079 --> 00:19:33,319 has been my greatest takeaway from Better Help, understanding the core roots of the 246 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:37,359 behaviors I want to change, because once you understand the why, it's way 247 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:41,720 easier to change the response. If you're thinking of trying therapy or just thinking 248 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:45,119 you need to make some changes, give Better Help a try. It's designed 249 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:49,119 to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. Discover your potential 250 00:19:49,279 --> 00:19:55,279 with Better Help. Visit betterhelp dot com slash TCB today to get ten percent 251 00:19:55,319 --> 00:20:11,599 off your first month. That's Better Help Help Calm slash tcb now. There 252 00:20:11,599 --> 00:20:15,240 are a few components of Marina's encounter that stand out to me. For one, 253 00:20:15,799 --> 00:20:21,359 Keys's appearance, as we all know by now, Keys was six foot 254 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,880 two, often wore car hearts, had shoulder length hair at the time, 255 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:32,279 which was often described and photographed as greasy, and the phrase dressed like a 256 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:37,119 farmer has come up over and over again in the files and impossible encounters and 257 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:42,119 sightings. Granted, dressed as a farmer is quite ambiguous, and most of 258 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:49,359 the Midwest is agricultural. Moving on, there's the they're on business thing. 259 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:53,640 It's something else that's come up time and time again in the most credible Keys 260 00:20:53,680 --> 00:21:00,480 tips a man who looks like Keys, acting sketchy in an air he was 261 00:21:00,559 --> 00:21:06,359 known to be claiming to be in town on business, usually for either insurance, 262 00:21:06,519 --> 00:21:11,400 construction or translation. It comes up in the Contradance siding, the Lake 263 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:15,799 Force Park siding, and several others we haven't discussed yet, but most notably 264 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:19,359 here it comes up in the Montpellier, Ohio siding from around this time, 265 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:25,960 where a woman who lived forty minutes from Heidi Keys claimed that Israel approached her 266 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:30,599 house pretending to be an insurance salesman, and she told the FBI the thing 267 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,759 that made her most uncomfortable about this encounter was that the man she believes to 268 00:21:33,799 --> 00:21:40,599 be Keys, wasn't dressed like an insurance salesman. And then there's the question 269 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:45,920 we get over and over again, would anyone notice if you'd disappeared? That 270 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:51,000 comes up in the Paris Lake Siding, the Saint Albans Bay Siding, and 271 00:21:51,079 --> 00:21:56,559 the Marshall's Encounter, just to name a few. And finally, Keys and 272 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:03,200 Kimberly were avid wine drinkers, went to wineries frequently in Washington, Oregon, 273 00:22:03,279 --> 00:22:07,720 California, much like his love for the Minnesota Vikings. His love for wine 274 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:15,400 and visiting wineries comes up in almost every interview with his adult friends. The 275 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:19,359 second thing of note is the location of the winery itself. The winery Marina's 276 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,720 encounter occurred at is the Oliver Winery, which is about ten miles north of 277 00:22:23,759 --> 00:22:30,240 downtown Bloomington on Interstate sixty nine and Route thirty seven. Route thirty seven takes 278 00:22:30,279 --> 00:22:37,319 you directly through Harlan, Indiana. The winery also backs up to a densely 279 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:45,680 wooded forest on the outskirts of the Morgan Monroe State Forest. The third thing 280 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:52,400 we need to explore is the timing of the encounter. Marina strongly believed it 281 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:56,440 was on the Sunday of the Bloomington Little five hundred in two thousand and eight, 282 00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:02,359 which would make it April thirteenth. Arters Keys can't be placed anywhere for 283 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:06,599 the entire month of April in two thousand and eight. His last known prior 284 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:11,359 whereabouts are in February when he did some construction work on a house in Anchorage, 285 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,319 and even there we don't have exact dates. And then from March twenty 286 00:23:15,319 --> 00:23:19,599 sixth through the twenty ninth, while Kimberly was in Oakland, California, their 287 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,799 dog sitter reported that Keys was out of town, but on paper, Keys 288 00:23:23,839 --> 00:23:29,039 doesn't show up again until May eleventh, when he goes to a client's house 289 00:23:29,039 --> 00:23:33,720 in Anchorage to take photos for his website. So we know that Keys was 290 00:23:33,839 --> 00:23:37,599 most likely out of Anchorage at a minimum from March twenty sixth through the twenty 291 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:45,839 ninth, but possibly completely through April. The other interesting note about this particular 292 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,200 weekend is that, as Marina mentioned, it was the Bloomington Little five hundred 293 00:23:49,279 --> 00:23:55,000 Race, which is a pretty big deal in Bloomington. Its average attendance is 294 00:23:55,039 --> 00:24:00,319 reportedly twenty five thousand. Much of the city is blocked off in detour and 295 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,400 there is an abundance of police supervision, most precincts are diverted to cover the 296 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:11,880 three day event, meaning there's less coverage outside of downtown Bloomington. And this 297 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,720 is something that comes up in the Courier case and in Maureene Callahan's American Predator, 298 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:22,960 which in this instance Grain of Salt. The Couriers were abducted during a 299 00:24:23,039 --> 00:24:29,119 large jazz festival in Burlington, and according to Callahan, Keys told the FBI 300 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:33,160 that he liked to plan his abductions around events that would divert police attention. 301 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:40,839 The other timing factor at play is that April thirteenth is just two weeks after 302 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:45,359 Keys's sister's birthday, a sister who lived in Harlan, Indiana at the time. 303 00:24:48,799 --> 00:24:53,359 So if this was Keys, what does it mean, what's its value? 304 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:59,599 Well, it would place him in Bloomington, Indiana, period, but 305 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:06,000 also so three years prior to Lauren Spier's disappearance at minimum. But as you'll 306 00:25:06,039 --> 00:25:10,559 recall from my original coverage of Lauren's case in season one, episode thirteen, 307 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:15,599 there's the high possibility that he was also in the area during his December two 308 00:25:15,599 --> 00:25:21,440 thousand and seven trip when he brought both Sarah and guns to visit Heidi. 309 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:26,200 This closely mirrors his behavior in the years leading up to the Courier's abduction and 310 00:25:26,279 --> 00:25:30,400 murder. He went to Essex once to stake out the area and bury a 311 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:36,039 kilkit. He returned to check on the kilkit, and then he went a 312 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:40,319 third time to use the kilkit and commit the murders. As we all know, 313 00:25:41,039 --> 00:25:45,039 Keys likes to be familiar with the places he commits crimes. It's also 314 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:52,079 worth noting that starting in April of two thousand and eight, Lake Monroe experienced 315 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,319 historic flooding, so if Keys had buried a kilkit near it, as we 316 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:07,119 suspected in season one, perhaps he was turning to check on it. Since 317 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:12,000 that season one episode, we have new information regarding the flight that Keys took 318 00:26:12,039 --> 00:26:15,880 to Chicago in June of two thousand and eleven. We were able to pull 319 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:22,720 old flight records and confirm that Keys arrived in Chicago at eight eleven on the 320 00:26:22,799 --> 00:26:29,079 morning of June second, close to thirty hours before he arrived in Harlyn at 321 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:36,960 Heide's house on the evening of June third. And then there's those Indiana toll 322 00:26:37,039 --> 00:26:41,839 road tolls that came up in the timeline wherein Keys's financial records placed him on 323 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:48,839 the Indiana Toll Road at some point on June third. Well, we were 324 00:26:48,839 --> 00:26:52,440 able to get in touch with the General Council for the Indiana Toll Road and 325 00:26:52,559 --> 00:27:00,440 asked about those three specific charges. Here's what he said. The key item 326 00:27:00,599 --> 00:27:04,359 is that the three dollars fifty cent toll is most likely the Chicago Skyway, 327 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,920 which connects to the Indiana Toll Road. Therefore, he would have hit the 328 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:15,960 Skyway then our road if headed eastbound. However, it looks like the next 329 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:21,200 two charges are entering and then exiting the toll road headed eastbound, and taking 330 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:26,839 an exit early on that would likely be used to head south. He specified 331 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:32,680 that for someone to have incurred these exact charges, they'd have to exit the 332 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:40,400 toll road at one of the following exits, Gary East Lake Station or Portage 333 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:45,920 Willow Creek. What's notable here is that the Gary East exit feeds into Interstate 334 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:52,799 sixty five, which travels due south to Bloomington, and while you could feasibly 335 00:27:52,839 --> 00:27:56,240 take the Portage Willow Creek exit to get to Harlan, the three fastest routes 336 00:27:56,279 --> 00:28:02,559 would be off of exits further east along the toll road. So this could 337 00:28:02,599 --> 00:28:07,640 mean a few things. One Key spent June second doing something in the Chicago 338 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,680 area. He did tell the FBI that he bought the cigars that he smoked 339 00:28:11,799 --> 00:28:17,599 during the courier's rape and murder while he was in Chicago, and then at 340 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:22,279 some point thereafter on the third, he drove a somewhat irregular route to Harlan 341 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:30,279 two. Key spent June second in the Chicago area, then sometime around midnight, 342 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:34,799 drove directly to Bloomington, taking the Chicago Skyway to the Indiana Toll Road 343 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:42,000 to Interstate sixty five, but this seems unlikely because even if Keys hit that 344 00:28:42,119 --> 00:28:48,440 first toll at exactly midnight, he wouldn't get into Bloomington until five to forty 345 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,119 in the morning, which is more than an hour after Lauren Spear was reportedly 346 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:56,519 last seen leaving Rosenbaum's apartment at four thirty a m. On June third, 347 00:28:57,839 --> 00:29:03,119 three, Keys landed in Chicago and then drove a smaller highway to Bloomington, 348 00:29:03,319 --> 00:29:07,720 where he spent the day staking out the area, as he did in the 349 00:29:07,759 --> 00:29:11,599 two days leading up to his abduction of the couriers. He then abducts and 350 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,319 murders Lauren, then heads back to Chicago, so he can be traced driving 351 00:29:15,359 --> 00:29:21,200 from the city through northern Indiana on June third, he's really, do you 352 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,720 bring your cigars when you do? You buy him there? I usually buy 353 00:29:23,799 --> 00:29:26,759 him wherever I am, And where do you buy your cigars? Vermont? 354 00:29:32,359 --> 00:29:34,680 Well, on that trip I had him with me. Oh, I bought 355 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:41,559 him in Chicago, Chicago or Indiana, I don't know, somewhere down there. 356 00:29:41,559 --> 00:29:45,880 It's that same brand you usually smoke. Yeah, I mean it's not 357 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:52,720 as they're kind of a little more difficult to find certain areas. And while 358 00:29:52,759 --> 00:29:57,880 option three seems the most outlandish, there's something that Keys said in an unreleased 359 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:15,880 interview that lends some significant credence to it. The general rule for reporting on 360 00:30:15,039 --> 00:30:22,519 something is that it requires two independent sources for verification. It's a rule I've 361 00:30:22,559 --> 00:30:26,960 tried to employ throughout the podcast, and when I've wavered, I've tried to 362 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:33,200 be clear on what level of integrity the single source may have. But with 363 00:30:33,279 --> 00:30:37,039 big things, if I've only had one source, I've generally kept them to 364 00:30:37,119 --> 00:30:44,960 myself. Well, since my original reporting on Laurence Spier's disappearance back in twenty 365 00:30:45,039 --> 00:30:52,359 nineteen, a few things have happened. One Maureene Callahan's American Predator was released, 366 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:59,960 and two someone came forward with some information that I had received from an 367 00:31:00,119 --> 00:31:03,839 entirely different person, And we'll get into that in a little bit, but 368 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:10,680 I want to start with Callahan an American Predator. American Predator is a book 369 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:15,880 about Israel Keys that is incredibly well sourced. Callahan talked to and got access 370 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:21,920 to all the right people and files, but how she presented some of that 371 00:31:22,039 --> 00:31:27,359 information, in my opinion, was a bit tenuous. That said, the 372 00:31:27,519 --> 00:31:33,319 facts in the book have thus far been factual. It's merely her opinions and 373 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:41,119 speculation that I often find flawed. And based on her sourcing, the information 374 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:47,960 presented as fact, which she obtained from the FBI is pretty iron clad. 375 00:31:48,759 --> 00:31:53,839 One such tidbit is something I'd received from a reliable source long before her book 376 00:31:53,920 --> 00:32:05,039 came out. So her book and its sourcing makes two. The name is 377 00:32:05,079 --> 00:32:10,960 forty five is a list created off of images found on Kimberly's computer, just 378 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:19,759 images. There's also a list of Google to search terms which has never been 379 00:32:19,759 --> 00:32:24,720 made public, but we know that Deborah Feldmann spelled incorrectly, was on that 380 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:31,359 list, and according to my source, and now Callahan's book, there was 381 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:42,680 another relevant phrase on that list missing persons Indiana, June two thousand eleven. 382 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:51,839 That's right, Keys googled missing persons Indiana June two thousand eleven, and according 383 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:57,039 to Callahan's book, during an unreleased interview, the same interview where my source 384 00:32:57,079 --> 00:33:02,559 reported that Keys got visibly upset when scented with Spears's photo, agent Bell asked, 385 00:33:04,759 --> 00:33:07,720 did you do this? People are going to think you did this? 386 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:15,359 You were in Indiana that night. Keys laughed and then replied, that's how 387 00:33:15,359 --> 00:33:22,839 hard it's going to be for you guys to figure it out. According to 388 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:28,799 those tolls paid in very traceable credit, it looks like Keys was in Chicago 389 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:37,039 on the night of June second. Another interesting thing that we've paid more attention 390 00:33:37,119 --> 00:33:42,039 to is Keys's return to Indiana following the abduction and murder of the couriers, 391 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,079 which is something he also did in Essex. After murdering Lorraine and Bill. 392 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:52,279 He created an immediate distance between himself and the crime scene by driving six hours 393 00:33:52,319 --> 00:33:57,680 to his brother's house in Bangor, but then he returned to Essex days later 394 00:33:58,079 --> 00:34:02,720 to check on the crime scene, drove that car, drove their car up 395 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:07,079 north and only made it about halfway, and then I started just like a 396 00:34:07,119 --> 00:34:15,639 whole, a whole bunch of things. I realized that there was their car 397 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:20,920 had issues, and I think it was also almost out of gas, and 398 00:34:21,079 --> 00:34:27,280 I was still resently and I didn't really addrest myself to roll the bank because 399 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:35,360 I hadn't slept all night and I was kind of shaky, and so I 400 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,480 decided to scratch that. I was thinking I would just park the car. 401 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:43,039 I was going to torch the car. There was an area down back down 402 00:34:43,039 --> 00:34:46,760 where I buried the guns from before in Vermont, and I was going to 403 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:52,440 drive their car down there and torch it after the bank robberies. But but 404 00:34:52,559 --> 00:34:55,559 then for some reason, I was thinking I could still use the car. 405 00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,199 I just you know, I was going to go up to Maine and will 406 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,360 out for a few days and then come back through Vermont. And I was 407 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,000 thinking if the car was still there, then I would take the car and 408 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:12,559 maybe still do some bancoveries with it and then torchhip. But yeah, I 409 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:21,079 wasn't by the time he got by her for please. Then, on his 410 00:35:21,159 --> 00:35:25,880 way back to Chicago following the murder of the couriers, Keys inexplicably stops in 411 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,119 Harlan for two to three days, and unfortunately, we don't know much about 412 00:35:30,119 --> 00:35:34,440 the time he spent there. This is all that came up in the FBI 413 00:35:34,559 --> 00:35:37,960 summary of their interview with Heidi on February twelfth or twenty thirteen, when they 414 00:35:38,039 --> 00:35:45,679 discussed that particular trip regarding the murders of William and Lorraine Courier. Heidi recalled 415 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:50,599 that Keys visited her in Indiana between June third and fifth of twenty eleven. 416 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,760 When Keys left Indiana, he told missus Keys that he was going to the 417 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:59,519 New York property to plant trees. Keys had no camping equipment, so she 418 00:35:59,599 --> 00:36:04,360 purchased for him. When he returned to Indiana, he told Heidi that the 419 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:08,920 New York property was very overgrown, so he only planted six trees. He 420 00:36:09,039 --> 00:36:14,840 also told her that he visited Vermont during that trip. It was after he 421 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,360 returned to Indiana from that trip that he took a long walk in the woods 422 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:23,239 with his sister. She reported that Keys was visibly upset and very broken during 423 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:34,280 their conversation. As I mentioned earlier, since my initial coverage of the Spear 424 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:38,079 case and its many links to Israel, Keys, someone has come forward with 425 00:36:38,159 --> 00:36:47,760 information that had previously been shared with me confidentially. Now this new information was 426 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:53,880 shared on Reddit, which I avoid at all costs because anyone can go on 427 00:36:53,920 --> 00:37:00,000 there anonymously and claim anything, and so I wouldn't even be guessing this had 428 00:37:00,119 --> 00:37:07,159 much of that information shared there not matched what my source shared with me back 429 00:37:07,199 --> 00:37:13,599 in twenty nineteen. And for the sake of transparency, I will say that 430 00:37:13,639 --> 00:37:17,840 we were able to identify the person who wrote the Reddit post, and they 431 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:23,239 have not responded to multiple inquiries, and I've yet to be able to suss 432 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:30,440 out how exactly they would have received this information. So without explicitly sharing what 433 00:37:30,599 --> 00:37:37,119 my source shared with me, I'll simply share the Reddit post and say that 434 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:44,480 much of it was corroborated by my source, and the most damning part was 435 00:37:44,519 --> 00:37:52,920 also corroborated by information found in the Courier files. The first of two posts 436 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:58,840 reads as follows. If there's one thing I'm certain of in the world of 437 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,960 keys, that he killed Spear. I am very close to someone who is 438 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:08,199 extremely involved in this case. All the points here are valid and well thought 439 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:13,079 out. It's an odd case because you can think hard about it and feel 440 00:38:13,119 --> 00:38:16,320 it's likely he wasn't involved, or you can think hard about it and think 441 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:21,760 it's likely he was. That's true of a lot of Keys cases, but 442 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,159 this case is probably the most fifty fifty on the board. I can tell 443 00:38:25,199 --> 00:38:30,639 you there is a reason Josh had such extreme confidence in season two of the 444 00:38:30,679 --> 00:38:35,639 podcast that Keys was responsible, to the point that he proclaimed, I believe 445 00:38:35,639 --> 00:38:40,320 an announcement is forthcoming that Israel Keys raped and murdered Spear. There was an 446 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:45,400 announcement coming. It was all set. At the last minute. They called 447 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:49,800 off the announcement after a call from the FBI, but it didn't dissuade them 448 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,400 from being certain that it was Keys, just from making an announcement. I 449 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:59,239 don't have much special knowledge of any other Keys involved cases. This one I 450 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,920 do, and Keys is responsible. It will eventually come out, and I'm 451 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:07,760 not certain why it hasn't already. There's a ninety eight percent probability of Israel 452 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:13,239 Keys, even despite a lack of physical evidence. With the scope of more 453 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:21,119 info, it'll make perfect sense that it was Israel Keys in hindsight. The 454 00:39:21,199 --> 00:39:25,599 person posted again when pressed for specific details, and the information in this post 455 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:34,880 is the information of more interest to me. Multiple pings from an anchorage number 456 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:40,159 that traces nowhere, a ka burner phone within a very tight radius of where 457 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:45,960 Lauren was last known to be during the exact time she was purportedly there, 458 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:51,519 pings headed toward a very deep lake outside of town in Brown County, a 459 00:39:51,639 --> 00:39:55,920 report of a man fitting keys description in the area that night, toll road 460 00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,880 times lining up the things pointing to Keys. Aren't just trying to make him 461 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:06,679 fit so they can mark the case resolved. There's zero evidence of anyone else, 462 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,880 and more than a few pieces of evidence pointing to a serial killer with 463 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:15,440 a specialty in making people vanish, who they can almost certainly place in the 464 00:40:15,519 --> 00:40:21,239 area during the moments Lauren vanished. There's a few other things I don't feel 465 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:25,760 comfortable posting because it could reveal hold back evidence if it's ever warranted. I 466 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,920 don't know if that's what the police consider it, but I could see it 467 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:34,239 being considered such. It's significant, and it points to Keys as well, 468 00:40:34,639 --> 00:40:37,199 but you never know, so it's best left held back. There isn't and 469 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:43,159 has never been any evidence against these boys or anyone else. The only evidence 470 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,519 at all, besides the boys being the last ones with her, points to 471 00:40:46,639 --> 00:40:52,199 Israel Keys. As far as the first question on why no announcement. I 472 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,400 don't know for sure. I know these two things. It was because of 473 00:40:55,440 --> 00:41:00,800 a call from the FBI. Bloomington police are no less convinced that it was 474 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:05,239 Keys after the call, and the indications are the FBI believes it was likely 475 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,320 him as well. So I don't know. The FBI has been strange about 476 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:19,159 their handling of keys since day one, and what I can say about that 477 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,840 last part is that it lines up with our own experiences trying to obtain the 478 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:29,440 case files and Lauren's disappearance. Here's an email from Jordan, a former police 479 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:36,400 officer who does independent research on keys. Did I tell you about the foyas? 480 00:41:37,039 --> 00:41:39,599 FBI sends a letter on a Friday saying it was going to take longer 481 00:41:39,639 --> 00:41:45,000 than normal. Then the following Monday, I get a response that the records 482 00:41:45,039 --> 00:41:50,719 are all in the vault and they'd have to look elsewhere if I wanted them. 483 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,519 Bloomington said they needed to confer with their legal department, then acknowledge that 484 00:41:54,639 --> 00:42:00,639 records do exist, but refuse to release them for investigatory purposes. When I 485 00:42:00,679 --> 00:42:04,800 asked if I could speak with someone about the connection, they said they would 486 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:09,159 forward my info to the detective, but nothing further has come, which in 487 00:42:09,199 --> 00:42:20,159 my opinion, lines right up with the FBI stepping in. You may recall 488 00:42:20,679 --> 00:42:24,760 that an Anchorage phone number which traced back to a Burner phone pinged off of 489 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:35,599 the same tower in Essex Junction at the same time as the courier's cell phone. 490 00:42:43,639 --> 00:42:52,159 Here's where I'll close. This is all very compelling circumstantial evidence in a 491 00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:59,559 case that is still active, involving both local law enforcement and the FBI, 492 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:07,679 but more importantly involving a family who is still desperate for real and actual answers. 493 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:15,000 So as often as we talk about police tunnel vision, it's important that 494 00:43:15,039 --> 00:43:23,880 we also don't exercise tunnel vision. We don't know that Israel Keys killed Jimmy 495 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:32,679 Tidwell or Susanne Lyle or Cammi and Jean or Lauren Spearer. We have very 496 00:43:32,719 --> 00:44:27,880 compelling circumstantial evidence, but their families deserve way more than that same mag Sadams 497 00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:37,000 Now. This episode was written, researched, edited and produced by Me Your 498 00:44:37,039 --> 00:44:42,320 Host, Josh Hallmark, with research assistants by Ben Lamb, Shana wa Lensky, 499 00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:45,800 Michelle Tooker, and Jordan Taylor. The episode featured Marina Turner. This 500 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:52,079 episode was made possible by the following Patreon producers Amelia Hancock, Amy Basel, 501 00:44:52,159 --> 00:44:55,039 Annette Benjamin Choppa, Thong, Casey Jensen, Richardson, doctor Jill Cooper, 502 00:44:55,159 --> 00:44:59,840 Drew Vipond, Holly Read, Gillian Natale, John O'Leary, Kendall, C, 503 00:45:00,199 --> 00:45:05,280 Kimberly, k Lauren f Lindsay, Curtis Linley, Tuscoffmanolas Bullachus, Megan 504 00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:08,320 cap Seawell, Mike Sherman, Nicole and Dennis Henry, Sarah c sc, 505 00:45:08,559 --> 00:45:15,320 Shannon Foster, Shelley Brewer, Tuesday Woodworth, Zach Ignatowitz Warren and Lydia Fiedler. 506 00:45:15,559 --> 00:45:20,000 Thank you to True Crime Bullshit's newest Patreon supporters Britney H, Tina S 507 00:45:20,079 --> 00:45:24,360 Elegant cow, Gabrielle Kay, Ashley H, Laura Athena, j Sidney Stryder, 508 00:45:24,599 --> 00:45:30,360 H, Tanya H, Robin H and Crystals. To support the investigation, 509 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:35,679 go to patreon dot com slash true crime BS. This episode included music 510 00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:40,119 by William Helfeyer, Radical Face, Sergei chermisanov Ittai, Argamon Oakfield, and 511 00:45:40,239 --> 00:46:01,360 Den Hollander, with featured music by Van Steel Eat. You around to say 512 00:46:01,480 --> 00:48:09,320 good bye. Nothing leaves here Consar Answer give out, Mbomber, Movember slack, 513 00:48:09,559 --> 00:48:16,000 and I don't know