WEBVTT 1 00:00:11.439 --> 00:00:16.160 Welcome to Veterans Chronicles. I'm Greg Corumbus. Our guest in this edition is 2 00:00:16.199 --> 00:00:21.399 retired US Navy Captain and naval aviator Charles Plum. He is also a veteran 3 00:00:21.440 --> 00:00:25.920 of the Vietnam War and spent nearly six years there as a prisoner of war. 4 00:00:26.519 --> 00:00:28.920 And Captain Plum, thank you very much for being with us. Thank 5 00:00:28.920 --> 00:00:31.239 you. Where were you born and raised? Sir? I was born in 6 00:00:31.280 --> 00:00:34.240 Gary, Indiana. During World War Two. My father was about to be 7 00:00:34.320 --> 00:00:37.200 drafted, so he moved with to Kansas. So I grew up in a 8 00:00:37.240 --> 00:00:41.399 tiny town in Kansas. Why did you decide to attend the US Naval Academy 9 00:00:41.399 --> 00:00:45.000 and pursue service in the Navy? Quite honestly, it was an education. 10 00:00:45.719 --> 00:00:49.079 My parents were very poor and they couldn't afford to send me to college. 11 00:00:49.119 --> 00:00:52.840 So I started looking for scholarships. Did the old shotgun approach, you know, 12 00:00:53.000 --> 00:00:55.960 to everybody I could think of, Lo and behold, I got an 13 00:00:56.000 --> 00:00:59.560 appointment to Annapolis. Out of those four years, prepare you for what would 14 00:00:59.560 --> 00:01:03.280 eventually come, you know, it was really good. Of course, there 15 00:01:03.359 --> 00:01:07.159 was a lot of discipline, a lot of military understanding, aerarchy, and 16 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:11.799 a lot of trust with my fellow midshim at the Naval Academy and then my 17 00:01:11.799 --> 00:01:15.359 fellow prisoners of war. It was really important for my survival. And then 18 00:01:15.400 --> 00:01:19.920 after commissioning you went to a flight school, and after that you were assigned 19 00:01:19.959 --> 00:01:25.519 to Miramar and what would eventually be known as Top Gun. Tell me a 20 00:01:25.560 --> 00:01:29.079 little bit about that and what it felt to know that you were really among 21 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:33.400 the best. Well, I threw the first adversary or flights for the Top 22 00:01:33.439 --> 00:01:34.760 Gun School. It wasn't called Top Ben at the time. In fact, 23 00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:42.640 it was just just guys having fun flying airplanes. And then they decided that 24 00:01:42.920 --> 00:01:46.400 we were in the wrong war that we were, that we were trained for 25 00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:51.319 the Cold War and flying high altitude supersunic interceptors, the F four Phantom, 26 00:01:51.400 --> 00:01:56.560 a mock two airplane, and suddenly we were fighting these pesky little MiGs at 27 00:01:56.680 --> 00:02:00.079 low altitudes that could turn inside us. And we didn't have the training or 28 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:06.200 the airplane to fight that war. And so we started to teach the pilots 29 00:02:06.239 --> 00:02:10.840 to dog fight fastle the World War two and Korean War kinds of tactics and 30 00:02:10.840 --> 00:02:15.960 and so that's how the Top Gun School got started. And h it was 31 00:02:16.039 --> 00:02:20.159 great fun, uh and I did feel like, you know, I was 32 00:02:20.199 --> 00:02:23.199 the best of the best, and I was very proud, you know, 33 00:02:23.319 --> 00:02:27.520 to fly those airplanes and uh and to go to war. You were also 34 00:02:27.560 --> 00:02:31.159 telling us just before we started recording about how you were assigned to two very 35 00:02:31.240 --> 00:02:36.960 important special events right here in Washington, the inauguration of President Kennedy and his 36 00:02:37.039 --> 00:02:39.560 funeral. What were those moments like for you? Well, his inauguration was 37 00:02:39.639 --> 00:02:43.199 very cold. It was a very cold day. And never forget that I 38 00:02:43.240 --> 00:02:46.599 was in the drum and bugle chorus a matter of fact, and so it 39 00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:53.199 was so cold that the valve on our bugle froze, and so you either 40 00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:57.520 had the valve in or the valve out. And so the commander of the 41 00:02:57.639 --> 00:03:01.080 brum and bugle Corus said, okay, every other the guy freeze your valve 42 00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:06.400 in the open position, and every other one the closed position. So you 43 00:03:06.639 --> 00:03:09.240 sort of played every other note. Came back three years later, as a 44 00:03:09.240 --> 00:03:15.439 matter of fact, to the tragic death of John Kennedy, and marched in 45 00:03:15.120 --> 00:03:20.680 behind his case on that's, of course, November of nineteen sixty three. 46 00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:24.479 It would be another year or so before a Vietnam would ramp up in a 47 00:03:24.520 --> 00:03:28.919 significant way. You mentioned you were flying the F four. I have yet 48 00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:31.319 to meet a pilot who didn't love the F four. I assume that is 49 00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:35.919 consistent for you as well. The F four phantoms a great airplane. One 50 00:03:35.960 --> 00:03:40.039 of the advantages is as duplicate everything. Two engines, two hydraulic systems, 51 00:03:40.080 --> 00:03:46.240 two noumatic systems. Everything was duplicated in the F four, so that when 52 00:03:46.280 --> 00:03:49.960 you started losing these things, you still had one left to bring you home. 53 00:03:50.039 --> 00:03:53.080 And I was shot up a lot of times. And so when were 54 00:03:53.120 --> 00:03:57.520 you deployed to Vietnam? On my wife's birthday, the fifth and November of 55 00:03:57.599 --> 00:04:01.120 nineteen sixty six, And what of missions were you flying there? We had 56 00:04:01.879 --> 00:04:08.240 two weeks as fighters and two weeks as attack and so we alternated with our 57 00:04:08.280 --> 00:04:12.680 sisters squadron. So for two weeks we would carry just air to air missiles, 58 00:04:12.840 --> 00:04:15.319 you know, fighting the enemy airplanes, and the other two weeks we 59 00:04:15.319 --> 00:04:23.319 would carry bombs in rockets to do air to ground missions. And on all 60 00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:27.079 those missions before the one we'll talk about in just a moment. Did you 61 00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:29.959 come under much fire from the ground, Yes, quite a bit. There 62 00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:33.759 was a first of all, a lot of anti aircraft fire flak, and 63 00:04:33.839 --> 00:04:40.720 then small arms fire, rifles and in anti aircraft artillery, and then probably 64 00:04:40.759 --> 00:04:43.600 the big one and the one that got me was surface to air missiles. 65 00:04:44.120 --> 00:04:46.720 So at the moment, at the time in sixty six and sixty seven, 66 00:04:46.879 --> 00:04:54.000 Hanoi was the most heavily defended city in the world. They had a lot 67 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:58.199 of crape to throw at us. Well, let's talk about May nineteenth, 68 00:04:58.279 --> 00:05:01.639 nineteen sixty seven. How did the day start and walk us through what happened. 69 00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:06.639 Nineteen May nineteen sixty seven started about three in the morning when I got 70 00:05:06.639 --> 00:05:12.759 a phone call in my cabin with the operations officer, and he I was 71 00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:15.959 the schedules officer, so I scheduled the pilots and in the planes and the 72 00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:18.680 air crews to go on these missions. So he said, you know, 73 00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:23.480 we got this last minute call for a big time mission. Come down to 74 00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:28.000 the radio room. We got a planet so od ark thirty. I showed 75 00:05:28.040 --> 00:05:30.879 up at the radio room, started planning this mission. We were briefed for 76 00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:34.680 the targets. I was air to air at that time, I was carrying 77 00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:41.399 just missiles, sparrows and sidewinder missiles, and so we were to protect the 78 00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:46.600 attack fleet. And so we were on both sides of the guys with the 79 00:05:46.639 --> 00:05:53.639 bombs, so launched on the aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk, rendezvoused at twenty five 80 00:05:53.680 --> 00:05:57.360 thousand feet, plugged into an airborne tanker, which is a trick in itself, 81 00:05:57.879 --> 00:06:01.680 and took on five thousand pounds of jet fuel. Pointed the nose that 82 00:06:01.720 --> 00:06:09.920 airplane towards the beach and that became That became like last flight. I remember 83 00:06:10.040 --> 00:06:15.120 though, we had three aircraft carriers and five air force bases on that day, 84 00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:17.720 nineteenth of May. I didn't know it at the time, but it 85 00:06:17.759 --> 00:06:24.240 was the birthday of their president Ho chimen uh and I think that the psychological 86 00:06:24.279 --> 00:06:29.560 warfare guys thought we would catch them in celebration of their president's birthday. They 87 00:06:29.639 --> 00:06:32.920 knew we were coming. They were loaded and ready to go, and so 88 00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:36.279 there was just an awful lot. In fact, there were eight f four 89 00:06:36.360 --> 00:06:40.680 phantom shot down that day. I was one of them. Take me through 90 00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:44.759 that moment. We were just short of the target. Things were looking pretty 91 00:06:44.759 --> 00:06:46.800 good. Saw a lot of flak in the air. I didn't see any 92 00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:51.160 missiles. I had dodged several missiles. If you can see a missile coming 93 00:06:51.399 --> 00:06:56.120 okay at you, and and you can wait for it to get in to 94 00:06:56.360 --> 00:07:00.120 maybe a quarter of a mile, you can out turn the missile. These 95 00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:04.480 missiles were twenty feet long and maybe twelve fourteen inches in diameter, so they're 96 00:07:04.600 --> 00:07:10.560 very gangly missiles and they can't turn very fast. I could turn inside the 97 00:07:10.560 --> 00:07:14.720 missile, but if you start your turn too soon, the missile has a 98 00:07:15.319 --> 00:07:18.839 lead pursuit on it and it will lead you in your turn and knock you 99 00:07:18.920 --> 00:07:21.399 off in the middle of your turn. So you have to wait till the 100 00:07:21.399 --> 00:07:25.720 thing. It's like a bullfight, you know, the red flag, and 101 00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:29.000 when the bull comes close, you know you had That's what we were after. 102 00:07:29.360 --> 00:07:31.319 So a quarter of a mile, make a big jink and that thing 103 00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:35.399 will go buy you. And I had done that six times during my seventy 104 00:07:35.399 --> 00:07:40.480 four missions. So this time I didn't see the missile. It came from 105 00:07:40.480 --> 00:07:43.720 behind. In fact, I didn't even know. I didn't even know what 106 00:07:43.839 --> 00:07:48.720 hit me until later in the war. All I knew was that my instrument 107 00:07:48.759 --> 00:07:55.480 panel lit up like a Christmas tree. I started losing everything. Engines unwound, 108 00:07:56.120 --> 00:08:01.319 hydraulic pressure failed, I couldn't control the airplane anymore. I was upside 109 00:08:01.319 --> 00:08:03.959 down. My radar interceptor officer in the back, you know, is talking 110 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:07.839 to me about what are we going to do. The only manual control on 111 00:08:07.879 --> 00:08:13.079 an F four Phantom is the rudder. It's hydraulic assist, but you have 112 00:08:13.240 --> 00:08:18.319 some power manually. My hydraulics were gone. I hit the rudder as hard 113 00:08:18.360 --> 00:08:22.199 as I could, set a prayer as loud as I could, shuttered upright 114 00:08:22.279 --> 00:08:26.120 where I could eject my backseater could eject. Our pearachutes open, and we 115 00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:30.959 came floating down over intemy territory. What happened when you touched the ground? 116 00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:33.279 Well, first of all, before I touched the ground, they were shooting 117 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:37.320 at me. I thought that was unfair. You know, they just knocked 118 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:41.480 down this multi gazellon dollar airplane. Now they're trying to kill the pilot. 119 00:08:43.879 --> 00:08:46.879 So and I found out that when you're dodging bullets, it's tough to come 120 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:52.879 up with a long range plan. So so I took a deep breath, 121 00:08:54.080 --> 00:08:58.320 let about half of it out, bowed my head, and set a prayer, 122 00:08:58.080 --> 00:09:03.639 asked for a little extra strength that day. From above, I knew 123 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:07.240 there was going to be some pain in my future. I prayed that there 124 00:09:07.320 --> 00:09:11.799 might be some value in the pain. I prayed for my wife because I 125 00:09:11.879 --> 00:09:15.480 knew it would really be tough on her. We were both twenty four years 126 00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:18.679 old. We had been married, let's see by that time two years. 127 00:09:20.639 --> 00:09:24.440 So it was gonna be tough. As I said, I was the flight 128 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:28.960 officer, and so I had all the schedule in in a little book in 129 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:31.639 my pocket. I had a schedule in my book in my pocket. I 130 00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:35.720 pulled it out, ripped the pages of the names of the pilots, and 131 00:09:35.799 --> 00:09:41.440 I ate the pages from this book because I didn't want the enemy to capture 132 00:09:41.559 --> 00:09:46.000 my book with all the pilot's names. This while you're parachuting. Yeah, 133 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:48.840 well, on parachuting death, pulled out my two way radio. I was 134 00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:54.120 a couple of hundred miles inland. I didn't really want the rescue helicopter to 135 00:09:54.159 --> 00:09:58.559 try to come. Plus the fact that I was very close to Hannoi, 136 00:09:58.639 --> 00:10:01.559 the capitol city. There was no way they were going to be able to 137 00:10:01.559 --> 00:10:05.759 get in there. And what I had seen happen in that war is that 138 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:11.879 a guy was captured, they would take his two way radio and call in 139 00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:16.480 for a rescue and then shoot down the helicopter. It was just automatic for 140 00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:20.919 me to know, Hey, that wasn't gonna happen. So I broke the 141 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:24.799 antenna off the radio through the radio one way and the antenna the other way, 142 00:10:26.320 --> 00:10:28.440 and it went into a rice patty. So I was, I was. 143 00:10:28.840 --> 00:10:31.799 I was pretty sure they were not going to be able to use my 144 00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:37.399 two way radio. And about that time I sunk about waist deep in the 145 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:41.159 mud of a rice patty. I was just just centered upon by it seemed 146 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:43.679 like hundreds. It was probably only twenty five or thirty, but it was 147 00:10:43.720 --> 00:10:48.720 a bunch of farmers for the most part, and they had machetes and shovels 148 00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:54.080 and farming implements and started hacking at me with their farming instruments. I had 149 00:10:54.120 --> 00:11:00.240 a thirty eight revolver with me, but they were I had. I had 150 00:11:00.279 --> 00:11:05.759 five shells and flare and the revolver. I decided I'm gonna do much good, 151 00:11:05.879 --> 00:11:11.480 and so I threw the revolver into the rice paddy and gave up, 152 00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:16.000 which really bothered me, you know, for the nearly six years I was 153 00:11:16.039 --> 00:11:20.360 there. Because fighter pilots are not supposed to give up. That's not part 154 00:11:20.600 --> 00:11:24.879 of the top gun playbook. And so so I gave up, and they 155 00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:31.679 tripped me of everything I had totally nude, hauled me around and showed me 156 00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:37.559 off to the village people there as they hit me with sticks and rocks and 157 00:11:37.559 --> 00:11:43.960 that kind of thing. The uh, the the army showed up with two 158 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:48.240 jeeps, put my back seater in one. We were both burned, but 159 00:11:48.279 --> 00:11:52.240 he had more serious burns than I did. And we were in two separate 160 00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:58.519 jeeps, and within thirty minutes we were in downtown Hanoi at the Wallow prison 161 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:05.159 that we rename the Hannoi Hilton. When we return, Captain Plum takes us 162 00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:11.080 inside the infamous Wallow Prison, known better as the Hannoi Hilton. He also 163 00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:15.799 tells us about the brutal treatment and explains how the other prisoners gave him purpose 164 00:12:16.120 --> 00:12:20.639 and eased his guilt. Our guest has retired to US Navy Captain Charlie Plum, 165 00:12:20.679 --> 00:12:24.039 who spent nearly six years as a prisoner of war in Vietnam. I'm 166 00:12:24.039 --> 00:12:31.559 Greg Corumbas and this is Veterans Chronicles. This is Veterans Chronicles. I'm Greg 167 00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:35.559 Corumbus. Our guest in this edition has retired US Navy Captain Charlie Plum. 168 00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:39.919 He served as a naval aviator and is a veteran of the Vietnam War, 169 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:46.200 spending nearly six years as a prisoner of war. We've already heard the details 170 00:12:46.200 --> 00:12:50.440 of him being taken prisoner up. Next, Captain Plum takes us inside the 171 00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:54.159 brutality of the Hanoi Hilton. When it got to the Hilton, I was 172 00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:58.840 tortured for two days for military information and political propaganda. I was a very 173 00:13:00.200 --> 00:13:05.159 junior officer. I was a lieutenant junior grade. I didn't know any of 174 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:09.840 the information they wanted. They wanted future targets. They wanted information on our 175 00:13:09.960 --> 00:13:15.759 psyop o, our psychological warfare, and and UH and our nuclear weapons. 176 00:13:15.960 --> 00:13:20.679 I didn't know any of that stuff. And I started to lie to them, 177 00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:24.279 and they would they would believe my lies. It was. It was 178 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:31.120 really surprising, and I found out, first of all, how ignorant they. 179 00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:33.919 I shouldn't say ignorant, because they had a lot of natural talent, 180 00:13:35.159 --> 00:13:39.120 but they knew nothing about the rest of the world. For instance, they 181 00:13:39.240 --> 00:13:43.600 knew that I was shot down an n F four Phantom, and they said, 182 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:48.960 what base did you fly from? And I told them I flew from 183 00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:52.919 the aircraft carrier kiddiehog Well. One of the reasons I told them. The 184 00:13:52.919 --> 00:13:58.519 truth was it had been written on my parachute. You know CBA six three 185 00:13:58.279 --> 00:14:03.080 USS kiddie. Now the military as the code of conduct. They tell you 186 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:05.759 if your captured, give only name, ranks, show the number a date 187 00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:09.279 of birth, then they'll right your ship on your back. I didn't see 188 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:13.440 much much sense, but but I knew they knew the answer, So I 189 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:16.440 said, I I flew from the aircraft carry Kitty. That's a lie, 190 00:14:16.519 --> 00:14:20.960 they said. They slapped me around and kicked me with their boots and hit 191 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:24.679 me with their rifle. But tell us the truth. What base did you 192 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:28.080 fly from? I have flew from the aircraft and it's an aircraft carry out 193 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:31.320 there in the Gulf of Tonking. We know you could never take taken a 194 00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:35.039 big jed airplane like that off a boat. We know you need to runway 195 00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:39.200 that's at least a mile long. Well, it was time for another little 196 00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:41.519 fib. I said, well, you know, we have a lot of 197 00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:46.039 ships out there in a seventh fleet. We just line them all up, 198 00:14:46.360 --> 00:14:50.759 and they believe that one too. So we found that we could lie to 199 00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:54.679 them. And even after they had found out the truth that we had lied, 200 00:14:56.559 --> 00:15:01.200 they they were embarrassed to face us with the fact that we'd pull the 201 00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:03.440 wool over their eyes. And it was a crazy, crazy thing, but 202 00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:11.080 that's that's how we we answered their questions. So the torture lasted for two 203 00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:15.919 days. It tossed me into a little cell eight feet long and eight feet 204 00:15:15.960 --> 00:15:18.600 wide. I could paced three steps one way and three steps the other. 205 00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:24.399 And we call that the Hanoi shuffle because we were all doing it, and 206 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:31.320 we would, we would walk hundreds of miles. And I felt first of 207 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:37.720 all very lonely, solitary confinement, and then very guilty. I was ashamed 208 00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:43.720 of the fact that I had surrendered, and ashamed of the fact that I 209 00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:48.559 had given them more than name, rank, show number, day to birth. 210 00:15:48.200 --> 00:15:52.759 It sounds crazy, but you know, uh, I'm thinking I am 211 00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:58.639 so ashamed of what I did that maybe maybe if this war ever ends, 212 00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:03.840 I won't go back to the country, to my home. I can't face 213 00:16:04.200 --> 00:16:08.720 my fellow fighter pilots. I can't face my family and admit to them how 214 00:16:08.759 --> 00:16:15.159 weak I was, and uh, and that really troubled me. Maybe I'll 215 00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:18.519 go to some foreign country and change my name and live the rest of my 216 00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:23.360 life and never have to tell anybody about about my history. I got communication 217 00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:29.159 with Bob Shoemaker, POW number two. He was there over eight years. 218 00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:37.960 He pieced a little wire out his cell wall and across a storeroom into my 219 00:16:37.120 --> 00:16:42.120 cell wall with a note in the tap code. On the note to teach 220 00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:48.120 me that we could we could indicate any of the letters the alphabet by two 221 00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:53.840 numbers of tugs, the number of the five by five matrix, a number 222 00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:59.039 of the line than the number of the road, and so we would. 223 00:16:59.080 --> 00:17:04.240 We started commun indicating this very cumbersome, our cake code, but it worked. 224 00:17:04.839 --> 00:17:10.039 It became our became our lifeline in a lot of ways, what we 225 00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:12.480 called the tap code. I found out who he was, He found out 226 00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:19.200 who I was. We exchanged rank and dative rank because it was really important 227 00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:25.640 that we always knew who was senior to whom. The military standard was absolutely 228 00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:30.039 vital in my survival. That somebody had control, somebody was in charge, 229 00:17:30.279 --> 00:17:36.440 somebody gave us direction and a purpose. At first I thought, I, 230 00:17:36.759 --> 00:17:38.960 you know, I don't want to be commanded by somebody else. But by 231 00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:45.960 the way, that discipline brought unity in our survival. So we were on 232 00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:49.559 this tugging on wires and communicating with each other. For I don't know. 233 00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:55.519 A few weeks and I finally decided at a better fess up, and I 234 00:17:55.640 --> 00:18:00.519 said, Shoe as cal Saime was, Shoe, Mine was Plumber, could 235 00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:04.519 have been Maverick, but it was Plumber. So so I said, she 236 00:18:06.519 --> 00:18:10.480 I've got I've got a confession to make to you. And when I tell 237 00:18:10.519 --> 00:18:12.319 you what I did, you might not want to communicate with me anymore, 238 00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:18.920 because if our roles were reversed and you did what I did, I wouldn't 239 00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:21.319 want to talk to you. He said, what'd you do, Plumber? 240 00:18:22.119 --> 00:18:25.799 I said, I broke. I tried to be strong, but I broke. 241 00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:30.559 She Maakers said, hell, everybody broke. There's not a man in 242 00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:33.160 this prison who was as strong as he wanted to be, So pull up 243 00:18:33.160 --> 00:18:37.240 your big boy pants. We got a war to fight. That turned the 244 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:41.640 whole thing around it. It gave me, It gave me permission to be 245 00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:48.200 weak. And it was interesting that I found out that most everybody in that 246 00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:53.279 camp had gone through the same guilt feelings about not being as strong as everybody 247 00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:56.480 else had been. I've heard so many people talk about the value of the 248 00:18:56.519 --> 00:19:03.759 tap code and how the communication like you called it a lifeline mentally strong teamwork. 249 00:19:04.440 --> 00:19:08.480 But a moment like that where it absolves you of the guilty you had 250 00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:12.759 been feeling and really changes your mindset for however long you had left, had 251 00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:18.119 to be just life changing. Another interesting value of the tap code and the 252 00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:23.279 communication system it turned out to be the value was not necessarily the words we 253 00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:30.519 were using, or top secret plans for escape or any of that. The 254 00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:37.200 value of tap coot and communication any system, is the simple validation of another 255 00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:41.480 human being. Because in those prison cells, if you were alone in solitary 256 00:19:41.480 --> 00:19:45.039 confinement and it was dark, especially if it was dark and you were in 257 00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:48.240 solitary, you'd lose track. You wouldn't know what was a real memory, 258 00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:52.440 what was a hallucination. Sometimes you wondered if you were alive or dead. 259 00:19:52.279 --> 00:19:57.920 There was nothing to validate my existence. The tugging on a wire or tapping 260 00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:03.960 on a wall, and they have somebody else tug back or tap back meant 261 00:20:03.960 --> 00:20:08.440 two things. Number one, somebody's responding something I'm doing physically. Thus I 262 00:20:08.519 --> 00:20:14.519 exist, I'm real, I'm alive. Number two, somebody cares. And 263 00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:22.559 so it was that part of the communication that really validated my existence and and 264 00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:26.480 and made me whole. So it was absolutely vital. You had hundreds of 265 00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:32.079 prisoners here at certain points, and so did the captors not catch out or 266 00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:34.119 did they just not do anything about the tap code. It depended on the 267 00:20:34.119 --> 00:20:41.000 camp that you were in. Of course, communication was restricted. In fact, 268 00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:45.519 guys were tortured because they were communicating with each other, and so they 269 00:20:45.559 --> 00:20:51.440 were really serious about us not communicating with each other. But they knew that 270 00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:55.440 knew that we were communicating. One of the things our senior leaders came up 271 00:20:55.480 --> 00:20:57.599 with with what they called the Plums, had nothing to do with Charlie Plumb. 272 00:20:57.640 --> 00:21:00.880 It was just I don't know why the code name was the plums. 273 00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:06.559 And these were levels of resistance and it went from refusing to bow to the 274 00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:11.440 enemy all the way up to a prison riot. And so the senior officers 275 00:21:11.559 --> 00:21:17.079 could command resistance level number three and we would go into that level. Sound 276 00:21:17.160 --> 00:21:21.680 silly, especially the first level refusing to bow. That was one of the 277 00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:23.440 things we had to do. We had to do a very low, ceremonious 278 00:21:23.480 --> 00:21:29.160 bow. Anytime a guard came to our door and opened the flap and peeked 279 00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:32.960 in on us, we'd go bow to the guard, or anytime you know, 280 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:36.960 we would We would see any of the enemy. We had to bow 281 00:21:37.599 --> 00:21:41.720 subservience. Okay, that was the camp commander, you know, our leader, 282 00:21:41.079 --> 00:21:47.000 Jim Stockdale or Jeremiad or John McCain or whoever was in charge, would 283 00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:52.720 call for resistance level number one, and everybody in the heart maybe two hundred 284 00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:59.039 guys stopped bowing at the same moment, and it really scared them to death 285 00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:04.519 to know that we had that kind of communication and that kind of discipline that 286 00:22:04.759 --> 00:22:10.680 all of a sudden nobody would bow. And so the resistant we never got 287 00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:12.640 to the prison riot. Lucky for me, because a lot of guys would 288 00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:17.640 have gotten killed, I'm sure had we start to riot. But we sure 289 00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:22.200 showed them that we had unity and we had purpose, and we had our 290 00:22:22.279 --> 00:22:26.920 discipline through our rank structure. Coming up, retired Navy Captain Charlie Plum offers 291 00:22:26.920 --> 00:22:32.680 more detail about the agony his Vietnamese captors inflicted on him through an effort to 292 00:22:32.680 --> 00:22:37.000 create propaganda on their behalf, and he also tells us what it was like 293 00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:42.039 to be free again after nearly six years of captivity. I'm Greg Corumbas and 294 00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:48.839 this is Veterans Chronicles. This is Veterans Chronicles. I'm Greg Corumbus. Our 295 00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:53.440 guest in this edition has retired US Navy Captain Charlie Plum, who also spent 296 00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:59.039 six years as a prisoner of war in Vietnam. In a moment, we'll 297 00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:03.799 conclude our conversation with Plumb explaining what freedom now means to him. But first 298 00:23:04.039 --> 00:23:10.319 he shares the horrors of more torture at the hand of the Vietnamese as they 299 00:23:10.359 --> 00:23:18.039 demanded Americans create propaganda against their own cause. Is it turned out they felt 300 00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:22.400 that what they could get from the prisoners of war was propaganda, and that 301 00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:29.799 became really a mainstay of Ho Chi Min's dealing with us and are dealing with 302 00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:33.720 them. And that's sort of bad news good news, because guys were tortured 303 00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:37.799 to say that the treatment was good. It was just that crazy. But 304 00:23:38.440 --> 00:23:44.480 the good news was it gave us a purpose, a reason, a way 305 00:23:44.519 --> 00:23:48.480 to not only defend ourselves, but to take action against the enemy. We 306 00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:56.880 could be on the offense by refusing to allow their propaganda and so and so. 307 00:23:56.960 --> 00:24:03.720 You know, obviously it was difficult to refuse because you're gonna be tortured 308 00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:07.160 to do something, and you're you're probably gonna do it. But then we 309 00:24:07.279 --> 00:24:12.759 found out that if you could endure the torture until you thought it was close 310 00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:18.440 to permanent physical damage, and then started to ease up and do little things 311 00:24:18.559 --> 00:24:25.000 and lie a lot, like if we would make a tape or Jeremiah didn't 312 00:24:25.039 --> 00:24:26.799 was the acts an example? Uh? And he's gone. I wish you 313 00:24:26.839 --> 00:24:33.240 could interview him, because he's the guy that was tortured to see a delegation. 314 00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:40.440 And in the delegation he blinked out with his eyes tea. Oh, 315 00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:45.920 our torture as he blinked out, and they didn't catch this, and so 316 00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:51.880 and so the world suddenly knew that we were being tortured. And so these 317 00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:56.920 turned out to be great victories of our POW unit was to be able to 318 00:24:57.440 --> 00:25:02.839 play these things. And uh. And and if you wrote a confession, 319 00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:07.480 you know, little buzzwords you would use that the Vietnamese would not know, 320 00:25:07.079 --> 00:25:15.319 and yet our intelligence here would would understand. So the torture for political reasons 321 00:25:15.400 --> 00:25:19.680 became another fight. You know that we could fight and that we could win, 322 00:25:21.039 --> 00:25:23.160 and we did. They gave and you know, the morale was really 323 00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:27.720 great when we could play something like that and get by with it. What 324 00:25:27.799 --> 00:25:32.759 kind of things did they do to torture you? And do you still suffer 325 00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:36.200 injuries from that today. The main torture was what we call the rope trick. 326 00:25:36.920 --> 00:25:41.319 It was manacles around your wrist behind your back, and then they wrapped 327 00:25:41.319 --> 00:25:45.920 your elbows actually together behind your back. Okay, that hurts a lot, 328 00:25:45.319 --> 00:25:49.799 but you're not not over yet. Shackles on your ankles, and a bar 329 00:25:49.880 --> 00:25:53.559 through the shackles, and then they ran a rope from the shackles. If 330 00:25:53.559 --> 00:25:57.279 your ankles up over your back and down to your wrist, then they tightened 331 00:25:57.359 --> 00:26:00.920 up the rope. The result is your feet are right up in your face. 332 00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:06.880 Your wrists, remember your shoulder, Your elbows are actually tied together, 333 00:26:07.319 --> 00:26:11.759 and your wrists are are are coming back over your head. Your shoulders by 334 00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:15.279 this time are out of joint. You know, they're out of the socket. 335 00:26:15.799 --> 00:26:21.839 And I remember at one point looking up and seeing my wrists backwards above 336 00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:25.920 my head, wrapped up like a human pretzel. And and it hurts a 337 00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:29.680 lot. And if that's not enough, then they'll take that rope and tie 338 00:26:29.720 --> 00:26:34.119 it to another rope and throw it across a hook in the ceiling and and 339 00:26:34.279 --> 00:26:40.720 haul you up off the floor in this position. So I don't have the 340 00:26:40.759 --> 00:26:44.599 after effects that a lot of guys do. Fortunately, I've got a few 341 00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:48.119 little scars here and there, and my and my shoulders. Of course, 342 00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:52.599 we're out of joint and so I've got it's a little bit difficult. He 343 00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:57.119 saw John McCain couldn't comb his own hair. I can comb my own hair, 344 00:26:57.960 --> 00:27:03.200 but my shoulders still a little painful. You mentioned your faith on the 345 00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:08.839 parachute down from being shot down. Your faith played a major role also in 346 00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:12.359 you being able to sustain this imprisonment for so many years, and you were 347 00:27:12.359 --> 00:27:15.960 even serving as a chaplain for a couple of those years. So talk about 348 00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:19.119 the role you're faith played and how you were able to serve as a chaplain 349 00:27:19.160 --> 00:27:26.279 given the restrictions you had. Faith played a major role. I was a 350 00:27:26.279 --> 00:27:30.960 man of faith when I was shot down, but it was always kind of 351 00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:33.799 an efferial, kind of a disastereally work, and I think I proved to 352 00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:41.319 myself in the prison situation that faith does work. My mother was mother Teresa, 353 00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:47.640 absolutely wonderful lady. All the years I knew my mother, I never 354 00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:55.200 I never heard her complain about anybody or she taught me a lot about forgiveness. 355 00:27:55.960 --> 00:27:57.920 In the prison camp, I learned that forgiveness is not just a good 356 00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:03.359 Christian principle, it's a survival technique. Even we passed around Bible versus and 357 00:28:03.400 --> 00:28:07.519 patriotic quotes and poetry and all this stuff. One of the quotes that really 358 00:28:07.559 --> 00:28:12.440 meant a lot to me was this acid does more harm in the vessel it's 359 00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:18.880 stored than on the subject it's poured. What that meant to me was all 360 00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:22.880 this hate and vitriol within me is gonna hurt me more than it's gonna hurt 361 00:28:23.839 --> 00:28:27.839 the person I'm mad at. And I'm better get over this. I better 362 00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:34.400 forgive the guards for torturing me. I better forgive the camp commander for making 363 00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:37.759 this happen. I better forgive the mechanically put my opinion. I better forgive 364 00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:44.000 myself for being so weak, And so forgiveness was a vital part I think 365 00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:48.039 of my survival. At one point, when we got together in bigger rooms 366 00:28:48.039 --> 00:28:52.839 after the Sante raid, they were very afraid to put us all back into 367 00:28:52.839 --> 00:28:56.680 Hanoi. And I found myself in a group of fifty seven guys, and 368 00:28:56.799 --> 00:29:00.079 I was appointed by our senior guy as chapman of that of the unit. 369 00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:06.400 I had had some experience at the Naval Academy with the Officers Christian Union to 370 00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:11.640 serve as lay leaders aboard ships where Chaplains weren't available. So I knew some 371 00:29:11.720 --> 00:29:15.200 of the techniques, and so I started polling all the other guys in that 372 00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:18.519 cell. The Catholic boys were really good because they knew a lot of Bible 373 00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:26.920 verses through their Catechism that the Protestants didn't know. And so I collected Bible 374 00:29:26.039 --> 00:29:30.759 verses and patriotic quotes, and at one point we actually went on a hunger 375 00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:36.319 strike to get a Bible. And that was a very interesting experience because the 376 00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:41.559 senior guy was a very devout Christian, the second guy was a Jew. 377 00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:48.000 The third guy in command considered himself an atheist. And so we stopped eating, 378 00:29:48.759 --> 00:29:52.160 said give us a Bible and west start eating. Well, they withdrew 379 00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:56.519 our drinking water. Uh, now you can, you can. You can 380 00:29:56.519 --> 00:30:02.599 live a long time without rice and and sewer soup. But when they cut 381 00:30:02.599 --> 00:30:07.440 off your water, you start to get real thirsty. Unbelievably, we found 382 00:30:07.480 --> 00:30:10.880 that the guys in the next cell, they weren't on a hunger strike. 383 00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:15.000 We passed a tar paper tube through a hole and they poured half of their 384 00:30:15.119 --> 00:30:18.079 ration of water into that tube. And we caught the drops on the other 385 00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:22.880 side. We're gonna survive. But while this was happening, they pulled out 386 00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:26.720 our senior guy and put him in the stockade. That you guy said, 387 00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:30.920 continue the hunger strike. We're gonna get ourselves a Bible. They pulled him 388 00:30:30.920 --> 00:30:33.519 out of there, the atheist guy, continue the hunger strike. You know. 389 00:30:33.880 --> 00:30:38.319 It was that kind of military discipline we had that you know, it 390 00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:42.319 was beyond politics, beyond religion and anything else. You know, we were 391 00:30:42.359 --> 00:30:45.400 gonna we you know, we were gonna do what was the right thing to 392 00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:49.000 do. They finally brought us a Bible. They gave us a Bible for 393 00:30:49.039 --> 00:30:53.240 a day and a half. It was a tattered, old I don't where 394 00:30:53.279 --> 00:30:59.079 they even got it. King James version. And we copied from two sides 395 00:30:59.119 --> 00:31:03.559 of a page on pieces of toilet paper with ink made from ashes. We 396 00:31:03.640 --> 00:31:07.839 copied down that the Nativity scene that you know, the Matthew Mark, Luke 397 00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:15.400 John. We we copied down the Book of Job. We felt like that 398 00:31:15.559 --> 00:31:18.680 we we didn't have as bad as Job did, but gave us confidence, 399 00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:22.640 you know, to know that somebody had made it through this. Uh. 400 00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:26.559 And of course the Easter and so we copied those things down. They took 401 00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:30.039 the Bible away then, and we tried to hide our copies. They eventually 402 00:31:30.039 --> 00:31:33.160 found the copies and tore those up. So but it was it was a 403 00:31:33.160 --> 00:31:37.920 great morale boost just to have the Bible in that prison camp for a day. 404 00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:41.000 Well, I got a couple of minutes left, sir, But tell 405 00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:44.759 me about how you learned you would be free and what it was like to 406 00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:48.559 be free. Wondered for years how we would find out, how would we 407 00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:52.039 react. They came in and put a piece of toilet paper on the floor 408 00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:56.039 and said, put your foot on this. They traced around our foot. 409 00:31:56.279 --> 00:32:00.799 We're gonna get some shoes. Hadn't seen a pair of shoes, and nearly 410 00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:02.640 six years, get some shoes, sharing if they had brought us shoes, 411 00:32:04.680 --> 00:32:07.680 announced that the war was over, were trading prisoners. We got on a 412 00:32:07.720 --> 00:32:12.160 bus over the dike. We'd see the runway, the Geelom's run with the 413 00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:16.039 enemy's runway, with the US Air Force one forty one ready to wing us 414 00:32:16.039 --> 00:32:21.480 away to freedom. But there was no response. Were we were kind of 415 00:32:21.519 --> 00:32:24.920 afraid to cry or cheer, hugging and kiss everybody else. And it wasn't 416 00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:30.599 really until we got aboard that airplane lifted off enemy. So it wasn't really 417 00:32:30.680 --> 00:32:35.279 until we were airborne and over the water that we all started hugging and kissing 418 00:32:35.559 --> 00:32:38.119 the Air Force nurses, so we knew we were going home. What was 419 00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:42.880 it like to talk to your fellow prisoners after not being able to actually talk 420 00:32:42.880 --> 00:32:45.160 to them for so long? It was really neat, because, you know, 421 00:32:45.319 --> 00:32:49.119 we with a communication system. I knew an awful lot about an awful 422 00:32:49.240 --> 00:32:51.960 a lot of these guys, but had never seen them. You know, 423 00:32:52.039 --> 00:32:57.200 I knew Bob Shoemakers growing up, and every book he'd ever read, and 424 00:32:57.279 --> 00:33:00.480 every movie he'd ever seen, every girl he had ever dated. I knew 425 00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:05.160 his cat was named Matilda, and and so and so, when I didn't 426 00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:07.480 know who, I didn't know what he looked like. When I finally saw 427 00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:10.559 him and he introduced him, Say, Bob Shimgraham, Charlie bum, how's 428 00:33:10.599 --> 00:33:19.640 Matilda? He said? Kia, Charlie, Kia. Last question. You're 429 00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:22.680 among a select number of Americans who knows what it's like to lose freedom and 430 00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:27.160 then get it back. For those who will probably never know what it's like 431 00:33:27.240 --> 00:33:30.119 to lose it, what do you tell them about how to value the freedom 432 00:33:30.119 --> 00:33:36.359 that we have. There is great value in getting your freedom taken away for 433 00:33:36.400 --> 00:33:38.079 a while. In fact, I have four kids. I've told all four 434 00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:43.680 of these kids, if they ever get in jail, don't expect me to 435 00:33:43.680 --> 00:33:46.240 bail them out. I'm gonna let them at least stay one night in jail 436 00:33:46.519 --> 00:33:53.400 to let them know what freedom is like. It's like being reborn to be 437 00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:59.240 free. It's very simple, simple things like having a door knob on the 438 00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:05.319 inside of your or you know, to be able to just to walk outside 439 00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:07.519 in the air. You know, just to take a hot shower. You 440 00:34:07.559 --> 00:34:13.440 know, all these things still remind me, fifty years later, still remind 441 00:34:13.480 --> 00:34:16.840 me how valuable freedom really is. And I wish I could give a person 442 00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:22.599 a pill, you know, to experience something that I have experienced and then 443 00:34:22.119 --> 00:34:25.559 come back to life after having been We used to we used to ask a 444 00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:29.760 guy, hey, when did you die? That meant when we were shot 445 00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:32.960 down, because we kind of felt that the nineteenth of May nineteen sixty seven, 446 00:34:34.119 --> 00:34:36.639 the world kept turning. But I got off. You know, I 447 00:34:36.760 --> 00:34:40.039 was, I was dead, you know I was I was just not part 448 00:34:40.239 --> 00:34:45.599 of the culture for nearly six years. And if you could give a person 449 00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:50.599 a pill to have that feeling and and realize how wonderful it is to be 450 00:34:50.679 --> 00:34:55.400 free. And and and we're free primarily because of all the men and women 451 00:34:55.440 --> 00:35:00.559 who have fought for this. Freedom didn't come easy. And so yep, 452 00:35:00.440 --> 00:35:05.239 freedom is. It's a wonderful thing. And I enjoyed every day. Sir. 453 00:35:05.239 --> 00:35:07.920 It's an incredible story. I thank you for your time today, and 454 00:35:07.960 --> 00:35:10.840 I especially thank you for your incredible service and sacrifice for our nation. Thanks 455 00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:15.400 for helping us tell our story. Thank you, sir. Let's retired US 456 00:35:15.519 --> 00:35:19.840 Navy captain and Naval aviator Charlie Plum. He's a veteran of the Vietnam More 457 00:35:19.960 --> 00:35:23.199 spent nearly six years as a prisoner of war. I'm Greg Corumbus. This 458 00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:37.000 is Veteran's Chronicles. Hi, this is Greg Corumbus, and thanks for listening 459 00:35:37.079 --> 00:35:42.679 to Veterans Chronicles, a presentation of the American Veterans Center. For more information, 460 00:35:42.800 --> 00:35:46.440 please visit American Veterans Center dot org. You can also follow the American 461 00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:52.119 Veterans Center on Facebook and on Twitter. We're at AVC update. Subscribe to 462 00:35:52.119 --> 00:35:57.559 the American Veterans Center YouTube channel for full oral histories and special features, and 463 00:35:57.639 --> 00:36:01.800 of course please subscribe to the Veterans Chronicle podcast wherever you get your podcasts. 464 00:36:01.800 --> 00:36:07.000 Thanks again for listening, and please join us next time for Veterans Chronicles