What is krak Alakin fellow thermonuclear a efforts. I am Dan's Valley coming at
you with my certified fantabulous cohost, mister Grant Hughes. It is our first
emergency podcast in many, many moons. Damian Lillard traded to the Milwaukee Bucks.
DeAndre Ayton a member of the Blazers, Yusef Nurkics a member of the
Suns. As the thumbnail on this says, holy fuck, Grant, before
we dive into everything, how are you doing? Where's your head at right
now? Is what is going on? Well, first of all, I'm
really confused because when you said we got to do an emergency pod, I
thought it was about the Warriors signing Rudy Gay to a one year deal,
So I mostly came prepared to talk about that, and I just you know,
everybody needs a big forward. I don't care that it's his eighteenth year.
He could really, you know, he could give you seven to ten.
No, this is nuts, right, Like, this is unexpected one
because they're you know, for whatever stock you put in them. The rumblings
leading into this week, we're really more like, oh, Toronto might be
Toronto for Dame. And then oh, but this probably Then there's the counter
rumblings, which are even less founded than the original one, saying like that's
probably just leverage so that Miami ups it's offer, Like who put that out
there? The Toronto thing doesn't really make sense because that would be the Raptors
choosing a direction and they don't do that. But yeah, we're not here
to talk about the Raptors. We're here to talk about Damian Lillard being a
member of the Milwaukee Bucks and like a not insignificant number of like starting caliber,
you know, occasional all star players also moving around. So yeah,
this is wild. I don't think we uh, I don't think we can
overstate the significance of Jannis being very public about you gotta show me that you're
serious, uh in your aspirations to win titles, Bucks brass or I'm gonna
be gone. I mean, I'm paraphrasing, but like that was the implication
or maybe it was explicit. I guess implication is probably the wrong word because
it was not implied and boom Milwaukee, Like that's why, so I guess
my my great hot take. Yeah, thank you, I Glasgow. I'm
also here for the Rudy Gay emergency pod. Yeah, I don't know what
to make of it. We can, we can kind of like split it
up into the Buck side the Portland side. Where do you want to go?
What are your initial thoughts other than this is a surprising thing that happened.
I'm trying to wrap my head, So let's get to the details.
Yeah, so the Bucks get Damian Lillard and you didn't gather that. The
Blazers get Drew Holliday, DeAndre Aten, Jumani Kamara, who, by the
way, the Timeline guys were extremely high on when we did this song's look
ahead, so they can be happy he's part of this trade they will get.
The Blazers will also get a twenty twenty nine first round pick from the
Bucks, and they have swaps with the Bucks now in twenty twenty eight and
two thousand and thirty, so as of right now, they have one physical
first round pick from the Damian Lillard trade. The Suns will receive use of
Nurkige This here, little Keyan Johnson and Grayson Allen. Just for the Cap
sickos out there, this is basically net neutral for the Bucks. Unless there's
any details that I'm missing. They're they're actually saving like four hundred thousand dollars
in salary, So kudos to all you people who care about how much luxury
tax your your favorite teams owners are paying. The Blazers save about one point
three million so far, so they I have them now close to seven million
dollars in wiggle room outside the tacks. That'll be important, I think is
they make other moves and the Suns what's interesting. Unless I missed a detail
here, maybe I calculated wrong, but I did it three times, they're
actually taken on almost two million dollars in salary, so that tax bill is
going to be inching closer to h And yes, as Karen pre Tap says,
yeah, they're unprotected swaps. But again there's a chance the Bucks are
just better than the Blazers in those years. So that's why I said one
physical first round pick, but the Sun's taking on money as part of this.
We'll also want to take use of Nurkic's feels very not great, but
I think we have to start with the Bucks because like, this is just
this is groundbreaking in so many ways because it sets up the Bucks. I
think, like, who which team are you picking to beat? Like the
Bucks in the East right now, I feel like this makes them as long
as Damian Lillard's there, prohibitive favorites to come out of the East. But
what I will ask you is is there any concerned on your end about Damian
Lillard now turning around and trying to get out of Milwaukee, Because if he
really wants to win, I'll say this whole thing is a bad look for
him and his team. I think did a good job of submarining his trade
value. It just didn't end up sending him to Miami. But if he
actually wants to win, you're now with the second best player in the league,
and I think you're probably better set up to win a title in the
next two years with Milwaukee than if you had gone to Miami. Is just
my gut, my gut feeling. Yeah, The will Dame report angle of
this or will he be happy? Was a question I had until he tweeted
a few minutes ago that excited for my next chapter, among other things,
excited for my next chapter at Bucks. So I think, like, I
think we're good there, and it's like, you know, every player has
a preferred destination, you know, I guess, but that's just when it
when the alternative or like the fallback is you play with Jannis now who's already
won a title, like it would be really it would be an impossible look
for him to say, no, no, no, I still want to
be in Miami. Get me there, reroute me somehow. I just think
so my concerns if insofar as there are any from the Buck side is you
know, they do lose a little depth. Then as I'm trying to concoct,
like what's their first unit? Look like, what's their eight man rotation?
Look like it's pretty thin because you're now asking like as I pull it
up here to you know, tell me if I'm missing someone? You know,
really obvious, But it's like, is Pat Conison gonna start? Is
Beasily gonna start? Are you gonna go Middleton? Two? Jay Crowd or
three? Is marsha on bow Champ Bochamp gonna get? I mean, he's
gonna play more like I just those But how is he still on this team?
I don't know, but I'm just saying, like does that am I
I guess how big of a concern can that really be? Like? Are
we worrying? Are we counting pennies? You know when this is a multi
multimillion dollars you know deal situation, Like who really cares? The Bucks will
figure it out, maybe they'll get on the buyout market, maybe they'll sign
someone to a minimum. Although Rudy Gay off the board, sorry Bucks him,
But yeah, no, I that's my only concern. And then obviously,
like the down the road cost of Dame's contract, I think that's not
unique to the Buck. Whoever had him on the roster would have to worry
about that. I don't care at all that they're the Bucks draft is just
like you're not gonna be drafting until Jannie is like forty years old. That's
I don't care that. Like you're all in anyway, so whatever, the
picks don't really matter to me, and like maybe they won't be that good
anyway, so who cares if you're losing them? Do you have any other
Bucks concerns? Like and or is the depth thing overblown? Should should we
be concerned about that? I don't. I go back and forth in the
depth thing. There's a chance not defensively, because Grace and Allen was clearly
better defensively now, but like you have really Beasley on here, so we
could replace some of what you're losing in Grace and Allen. You're getting one
of the best off the dribble three point shooters of all time. Going back
to twenty nineteen, twenty and twenty, there's only been one season in which
Dame shot less than thirty seven percent on off the dribble threes. That is
massive for this team. Drew how they had some of that in his game.
It almost always deteriorated in the playoffs. And by almost always, I
mean absolutely always deteriorate in the playoffs. So you make this trade. I
want there was some I think there's been some reaction when you not even just
mentioned it, like, oh, this is a response to Jannas saying whatever.
If Jannis had not said whatever, and this trade is on the table,
you make that trade. Yeah, yeah, absolutely make that trade.
So this is not a panic move for them. They're definitely less athletic defensively
now, and so you're putting a lot on the shoulders of Joe and especially
after Like now, this makes me wish and obviously the Bucks, I mean
they should have kept them anyway, but like, imagine if they still had
Javonne Carter, how much better you might have felt with this team. I
think it's gonna put a lot on the shoulders of Pat Conaton, is gonna
put a lot on the shoulders of Janis and Brook Lopez, I think specifically,
but like Middleton, Conaton and I would even say, you know,
you mentioned Jake Crowder. I think it's a big one because he might just
have to play in some sort of ultra big lineups where he's I'm gonna call
the day facto too. But like, buddy, you're gonna be garden wings
now probably, so I think that's okay, And like I don't want to
say it this way, but like you haven't play like Marjohn Bochamp is still
on this team, so one you could try him if there's a rebuilding team
that's intrigued by him, and you can pick up like a lower level like
rotation wing who can play for you as your eighth guy in the playoffs or
something, you still have some salary parts to move around. I think the
depth concern is fair and specifically, like what does this do to their defense?
And I also think what was actually overblown some of the half court concerns
with them when Chris Middleton came back last year, they were great in the
half court. Even in the playoffs short lived, they didn't have the worst
half court offense. I think that the real issue here is there was a
genuine deterioration in that offensive pecking order, though once you got to the postseason,
Damian Lillard innoculates you against that is it's also maybe a little bit of
a reaction to we don't know what Chris Middleton is gonna look like with his
knee. He's getting older, Brook Lopez is getting older. So it's a
gamble in some sense. But I think it appreciably and I'll even say one
step further, I would say exponentially improves their championship stock because you have to
measure them against team and teams in the West like Denver and Phoenix specifically.
Yeah, I think as I Glasgow in the chat points out that the rookie
head coach should at least be mentioned as a Bucks concern, I think like
that's true mainly to a regular season extent. I think because Buddenholz are definitely,
like really excelled for all his faults at installing a system on both ends
that just worked over eighty two games, And I think there's gonna be some
fundamental changes here. I don't know. You know, again, we're just
spitballing. I'm sure we'll get more information on this, but like, so,
does this mean that Lillard maybe plays off the ball a little more?
Does this mean Yannis it becomes a much higher volume roll guy, like as
an rolll like a rollman and pick and roll, which is something he's never
done. I just had some time before we talk to do this. Like
over the last one, two, three, four, five years, his
usage as a pick and roll rollman has been like five or six percent,
which is really really low. I think Lebronze had a higher pick and roll
roll man usage rate. So it's like just not something that he's done.
And when you have Damian Lillard, who, like this side of Steph Curry
is the best pick and roll ball handling guard and sometimes it's just been better
than Curry in that in that area, you gotta play a lot of high
pick and roll And that's awesome in some respects because now Brook Lopez is going
to draw a center out because he has to be guarded as a spot up
guy, and maybe you put Jannis in the dunker spot. Maybe you I
don't know, have him crashing from the corner. But like I'm just I'm
I'm just kind of trying to talk through, at least offensively, what will
have to change for Lillard and or Yannis to kind of make this work.
Because Jannis as an off ball guy, is you know, to be stoked
if you're an opposing defense, and Jannie is like outside the three point line
without the ball, right, So like, I just you know, there's
gonna be plenty of workarounds. But that was my first instinct is like Lillard
is a very specific type of offensive player and Yannis is just a very unusual
type of offensive player. So getting those two to work together, I think
the ceiling's obviously like stupidly high, but it's not necessarily going to be the
smoothest fit. I don't think that's interesting because I guess, like what is
the how does it change going from Drew to Dame, Like Dame is going
to be the better off ball shooter anyway, And so it just comes down
to, like there needs to be more time where Yannis doesn't have the ball,
and how do the Bucks sort of go about that is basically your overarching
concerns. Well, it's just I don't know if it's a concern or a
question or what it is, but I do think, like, don't you
think it's realistic that maybe Dame is off the ball more than he's ever been
before, because you're still gonna want Yannis to try to cook a little bit.
But maybe Yannis just gets it all in transition and you know, on
Ducans and that kind of thing, and it's not an issue. But anytime
you're putting two two players of this high usage in this just general high caliber
together, you gotta kind of tinker and mess around and figure it out a
little bit. I think, yeah, they'll be I think Dame will be
the one that probably has to make more adaptations. And to the first year
coach thing that Glasgow was saying, or Glasgow, I get it. It's
kind of similar to what happened with Nick Nurse in Toronto, where it's like,
oh, he takes over and like all sudden, Kauai is just there
and he's entering free agency. Dame is different because he has four years left
on his deal, so that I think makes it easier. But this is
also the guy that Jannis wanted, so he knows that he's Adrian Griffin knows
that he's Joanna's guy. I think that'll probably help the whole Dame being back
with Terry Stotts. I never got the feeling that him and Stotts never meshed.
That was not that was just that team had reached its peak and geled
to its extent. I really just think this comes down to I think we
could wrap up the Bucks thing after this one. I think if you did
mention the money, you have to give him kudos for like, hey,
we're taking on this Damian Lillard contract, who it's four years and two hundred
plus because Drew was up and like he's not making a ton less. His
player option was forty million for next season, so that's comparable to Dame.
But like he might have resigned at lower rate over years. They did what
they needed to do. They swung. I'm just do you think that there's
any chance this becomes zak Loo likes to call it away station for Dame,
Like, I really don't envision him coming in and immediately asking for out,
like could this be sort of a one year thing when we're back and it's
the same type of request next summer, even if the Bucks make the Conference
finals, or something. I just how invested was he because he's always talked
about winning, and that's how always cares about. Like, he seemed really
invested in getting to Miami. And so, by the way, Jimmy was
invested. I don't know if you saw he went on Twitter or went on
IG Live or something and called for the NBA to investigate the Bucks for tampering.
That feels like a troll, right, That feels like a Jimmy Butler
troll, just like him trolling about complaining about gas prices for his Bugatti the
other day. Yeah, something. No, the Dame like way station idea
is interesting. I would I would, well, you can't rule anything out,
but I would say that like as long as Yannis is there, Yeah,
Like, are you really gonna like walk away from that unless things go
horrible and it's a terrible fit or whatever. But that doesn't seem very likely
to me. I didn't finish as as Glasgow again is asking about the picking
roll stuff. Jannis not in addition to being like a pretty low usage rollman,
like generally not that good at it. You know, we're talking like
the forty fifth percentile last year, eighty fifth before that, fifty nine sixty
six. There's a ninety second years ago. But these are tiny samples and
they're very like volatile. I guess some of that, as you know,
their garbs have been different. But yeah, I don't know that. We
don't need to harp on that because that's kind of a tangential point to the
fact that like Damian Lillard and Jannis are on the same team now, so
that's a big deal. I think that's it for me on the Bucks,
unless you've got another angle to hit there. No, I'd liked the angle
I'd like to hit before we get into because I'm I'm actually fascinated from this.
I think most from the Suns and the Blazer's perspectives, like it's the
Bucks, it's yeah, you have a chance to pay Jannis and Dame,
you do it. But Miami and Toronto there's some there's fallout here, and
so I'll start with Miami. I find it objectively hysterical, and I tweeted
this that the Blazers found a way to take both Dame and Yannis off Miami's
trade board, because is whatever you think about well technique Dame could want out
again. I would say that you've kind of ensured that Jannie Will unless Dame
is like something catastrophic happens this season. You probably bought yourself another just two
years, like the honest Will Sign extension. You bought yourself another two years.
And it's like that's tough stuff for Miami because despite the reporting that's coming
out, they very much acted like a team this summer that knew they were
going to get Damian Lillard. Yeah, because how do you let both gave
Vincent and Max Drew's just walk. I mean, like if you're going winners
and losers for this, the Heat are I mean, they may have well,
maybe they get Drew Holiday, and we're talking about this on the assumption
that Holiday will not play for the Blazers. I mean, I think that's
a fair guess, right, Like I don't. I mean, like,
are the Blazers really I guess if the Heat are offering enough, but are
the Blazers really gonna now do business with the Heat? That would be kind
of a boss move to just trade Drew for the Lillard package that you wouldn't
accept, but just to get on the Heat, like you're you're dead right,
Like you lost two rotation guys that mattered in a finals run, and
it would have been cool, or it would have been okay if you'd gotten
the guy you thought you were gonna get in Lillard, and now you just
don't have that guy. So like, I don't know, do we add
Jimmy Butler to the list of like our watch list of guys who are going
to ask for a trade eventually? Here? Like do we? Because like
the Heat are just so much worse and like, so for example, in
our off season grades, I think we gave them in completes, but they
had like f's or d's or something from us. If if this were it
right, and maybe this isn't it, maybe they end up with holiday or
something else. But like they're so much worse. And this wasn't even that
good of a regular season team. They just caught a heater in the playoffs.
And so, I mean, the Heat are among the major losers here.
That's assuming they don't do anything else, which now it's like they certainly
won't do anything else as consequential as getting Dame would have been. So they
talked themselves into Harden, I mean, and you could be on til who
knows, like they could really go anywhere. So I would like to ask
you, and this might lead us into a discussion about the Blazers, and
I have we eventually have to talk about the Raptors here. But if you
were the like, forget the whole and this is a we're gonna get into
this Karen protest or Koran Pratip apologies for butchering the pronunciation there. I want
to know what the Blazers that I'm getting for Drew, because my question to
Grant right now is knowing what Miami's best offer could have been. And let's
assume it was somewhere in the middle. So if it was Tyler hero two
first and two swaps as sort of the baseline there, would you still have
preferred what the Bucks gave you. Where it's kind of shorting like, well,
we're just betting that this whole Damian Lillard Joanna's thing is gonna implode.
And because where I'm coming from, the Heat threw their best offer on the
table, which is, let's renegotiate our pit commitment to Okay, see,
we will promise you three first rounders. If that wasn't any way on the
table, it does feel a little bit and by the way, I would
be all for this it does you like this could be a little Games Mini
where it's no fuck you guys, We're done with this like whole thing.
We're gonna send them to an offer we deem comparable. And it does all
come down to what they get for Drew. But right now you have one,
you have one guarantee first round pick, and if you're deciding we'd rather
have that two swaps and one physical first round pick from the Bucks versus let's
say two picks and two swaps from the Heat, I guess I kind of
get it. But like the Heat, I think had the ability to just
if they had included Heimie Hawkes and Tyler Hero and then done everything to their
picks, I think that's an offer that probably beats this run. Again,
it comes down to what they're gonna get for Drew, because he's he is
the best player out of all the deals. We heard that they were physically
going to a quite he's better than o Gianna Nobi. I don't want to
hear it like he's better than o Giannaoby and the Raptors weren't trading Siakamer Barnes.
So just where do you land on? I mean, it's it's tb
D. But like initially, just where do you sort of land on that,
like the heat versus is this box offer? Well, to be honest,
like both of them feel kind of underwhelming if you compare like the Bradley
Bill return. I mean, these are apples and orange because ownership is different
and whatever, but like I'd rather just get the Bradley Bill return if if
I'm you know, if I'm the Blazers, because like, you know,
his contract is just as onerous as Dames, and Dame is just better and
and you know, it plays a more important role on a team that like
needs I don't know, it does feel a little bit like the Blazers kind
of just like you're saying decided, like decided, like nah, you're like
we're not sorry, You're you're gonna have to be like you know, quarters
of Magnitude. Sorry better Yeah, sorry, not sorry. He You're gonna
have to be the offer will have to be absurd, and you're just like
not equipped to make an absurd offer for Dame. So maybe there's some of
that, but like, yeah, the Drew thing, you know, if
you're thinking from the perspective of, well, the Blazers didn't want hero so
he was gonna have to go to a third team and you know, maybe
they get some other sets that way, Like you're gonna get more for holiday,
I would, I would assume, or at least like you can trade
a lot of different under on a combination of one point five first round picks
and swaps. Day, are you taking the over the under on that he
is entering the final year of his deal? He is, yeah, and
you're gonna have to pay him. But like, well, I don't know,
that's a good you know, frame that way, that's that's a good
point. I don't know, that's a great number. I guess I'd say
probably over, but you maybe have protections or something, and maybe one of
those first would be fake, you know, something like that. I think
I'd be with you there the so to to keep us moving the Raptors,
well, hold on before we get there, we gotta do. We didn't
talk about the Suns because DeAndre Ayton is in this trade. Oh no.
I wanted to just get the Raptors and Heat out of the way. So
we having the Blazers and the Suns. The Raptors, everything that was reported
made it seem like they were a real threat everything that I've heard from people
actually know stuff made it seem like they were very real threat. If that
is in fact the case, they had the ability to beat this offer,
do you think that they fucked up here? Only if I'm trying to think,
because well, I guess i'd maybe answer your question with a question,
if the Raptors beat this offer and get Damian Lillard, are they championship contender
or anything close to it? If you were keeping Sakham and Damian Lillard together,
which you were, they weren't going to trade Siakam as part of that
deal. They are not as lethal as the Bucks are right now, I
want to make that clear. You're probably trading og. I think it does.
I'm wondering if this says more about their lack of confidence that Dame wouldn't
have just come in played the role of I want to be here given a
fair shake, whereas the Bucks have Yannis and that's just different than having Siakam
and Scotty Barnes. But if it came down to like pick protections, Yeah,
like I get why you wouldn't trade Scotty Barnes. I personally I love
Scottie Barnes, But if you were really into the window Og, Damian Lillard
and Siakam and Peartle that that makes you a capslock contender, Whereas if you
go the opposite route, where it's Scotty Barnes, Peartle, Siakam and Lillard,
you're very much betting on well, Scotty Barnes's leap is coming, and
it's it's not coming fast, it's coming now, it's here. I understand
why you might not give up as much as the Bucks, but like if
it was, like what are the rest? I just don't understand what the
Raptors are doing. Like they have these three guys that are headed for free
agency as of right now, maybe one of them Trents, probably not Og.
Maybe like maybe they would sign an extension, like you haven't really picked
the you lost redband fleet just like this would have I understand not overpaying,
but like this is this is an offer that they could have beaten while still
keeping at least one two I would say two of Og, Barnes and Siakam,
and we know it was probably gonna be Barnes and Siakam. So I
get being lower on the Raptors with Dame after the trade, But like the
like, at least the Bucks were a contender already, the Raptors are not
that as currently constructed, And now it's like, well, what are you
waiting for? Or because even if Scotty Barnes makes the leap, what is
your pathway to title contention with this core? It's oh, hey, we're
probably gonna need to make a consolidation trade, which by the way, gets
a lot fucking harder if you're gonna risk losing any of these guys in free
agency. I my first thought is that this suggests that the Raptors, if
they do pick a direction, are gonna like do a little bit of a
teardown or maybe go for more of a youth movement and kind of re orient
the timeline a little younger, not on Siakham's timeline. That makes that makes
sense that you would pay Yakham peartle then this summer, well, look again,
I'm good up trying to understand Toronto, but yeah, yeah, I
don't know. I'm trying to decide if well, that's the thing is now
that we have had so many instances of all O Gianna and Obi is going
to command a four first round pick return and oh well, the Raptors are
in on dame like anyone mentioned hard another Raptors. Yeah, why not the
team that does stuff that never makes sense? That that would be the least
sensible thing ever. Yeah, I just yeah, right as that a problem.
By the way, this is a great comment from Karan pre App.
But like if Raptors News seemed to be a smoke screen, I would disagree
with that. But massis On decide on what he wants to do, I'd
agree with that, and that's a that's a problem. Yeah, yeah,
no, I mean I'm trying to decide if if I think I could get
more as the Blazers for it O g N and Obi uh, well though
you probably wouldn't flip him, you'd probably keep him, but like then you
would you just paying a comment you already gave Jeremy Grant, Like, hey,
let's just pay both these guys. And I'm no, I don't know
that that's I'm tired of the Raptors, aren't you, Like I just really
turned on the Raptors who used to be in a bag for that team,
and now it's just we were as early as or as recent as last offseason.
So I just I think them they in Miami are clear losers here.
I would probably argue that Miami is a bigger loser because it does feel like
Toronto was very much consigned themselves on purpose to this existential crisis. Miami just
kind of operated like Dame was already on their team. To me, yeah,
Miami had Miami thought thought they had it and then they didn't. Another
loser. So I'm gonna try to pivot us here. I've seen arguments in
both directions on this. My first thought was like, the Suns did not
do well here and and there is the depth argument, and that was like,
oh, they got these you know four Now it's three guys making thirty
million plus and a bunch of minimums, Like how's that going to work?
You know? And I guess, like, just to go over it.
I know you mentioned it up front, but I so the Suns end up
with Yusef Nurkics, Nozz Little Keyan Johnson, and Grayson Allen and like,
yes, those are NBA players that you have added, but how much better
are those guys than Like how much better is Nurkics than you Banks? For
example? Like, and how much better is defensively? He's not? And
I think that's you've got to really believe these guys are a lot better than
the minimum players that Phoenix signed to sort of and look there there are non
bat like I think it's pretty fair to say. And someone may have even
mentioned this, like the Sun's just the best players don't believe in DeAndre Hayden.
That connection is broken and so maybe that's a factor, But like this
is a piddling return for DeAndre and a guy that got his MAX a year
ago. So I feel like the Sun's if they feel like a loser to
me because they gave up you know, a guy that is in Aten that
at least like we still think is a higher end starting center. Maybe that's
not right, but they just didn't get anyone that I feel like for sure
moves the needle for them. What do you think about that? I would
agree with you. I just don't. Something must have been so missed behind
the scenes with Deandret because he won. There was big regression on defense last
year. I talked about this with the Timeline guys, where I felt sometimes
people were too cruel because I felt like a lot was on his shoulders at
points because of how much we kind of saw CP three regress defensively and like
what that did to sort of like there, you know, from the outside
in like sturdiness. That being said, DeAndre had three years and a one
hundred and two million dollars left is a pretty decided lead net negative asset right
now, and breaking it up into more digestible contracts. I'm not crazy about
playing. I'm not thrilled about paying use of nurk. It's three years and
fifty four million. He's gonna be more crafty on offense, where I think
at this point in his career he's probably more abrought into like I'll just screen
make plays out of the short role. By the way, he has real
three point volume two, so you can play five out in a way that
you couldn't with DeAndre Ayton. I just feel like this compromises their defense a
lot. Brian Kay says, to see a little is a terrible defender.
I disagree. When he's healthy, I think that he's shown that he has
some tools to do stuff on defense on the glass, kind of bully his
way. On offense, it wouldn't surprise me if he played some reps at
center. I do agree with you, though, that this doesn't feel like
a great return. It's more to me, it's more indicative of they were
so out and it's like, well, what happened there? They were all
into Frank Vogel kind of salvaging this relationship, maybe reinventing or just reaching DeAndre
Ayton on a more profound level than it seems like he had tuned out.
Monny Williams, what really happened there? Because they're I think they're I don't
know if they're a worse basketball team. They're probably a much worse basketball team
on defense now though, because as much as DeAndre and regressed, like at
least you understood what the peak concept of him looked like on defense. We
just saw it. And so yeah, Thomas Scott says, teams didn't one
to eight, and I totally recognize that, But this could have been one
of those situations where it's, I'm this guy's clearly the better player. Let's
use Julius Randalls an analog to the Knicks. He's clearly more valuable to the
Knicks than any other team. Even though Phoenix couldn't necessarily afford to be this
top heavy moving forward, looking at their defensive structure, it really feels like
DeAndre was more important to them than any other team, and so Portland,
I guess when you look at what they're sending Phoenix, like it kind of
works out like that DeAndre Eton trade. It's just because it's looped into the
Damian Lillard trade that it looks so unimpressive. I get the flyer that they're
taking on him. I just I'm not in love with it for the Sun's
either, you really, because like what is Keyan Johnson? Is he even
going to play for this team? Grayson Allen? He will be better defensively
than Landry Shammitt, maybe a more consistent shooter at this point, But like
you, I just I understand the nader that DeAndre Aton's value both inside and
outside the organization must have reached for them to get to this point. I
still just wonder, like, was Devin Booker on the verge of putting him
in a chokehold during practice? Right? Like? What was the need to
If this was the return is what I'm getting at, what would have could
it actually been hurt by waiting? Right? That's the thing, Like maybe
you get into the season and like the Suns go twelve and zero or something,
and if they're just kicking everybody's ass and like suddenly everybody's a little bit
happier and maybe then, you know, maybe then you don't trade eight and
at all. But it seems like that's unrealistic because this suggests, this trade
suggests the relationship was broken. But maybe you wait till the deadline because I
think like normally in this situation, we would look the players that the Sun's
got and say, well, look good, they've got these middle class contracts.
Now are like Nurkics is on the higher end of that, Alan's on
the kind of lower mid end of that, and that's just easier to trade
those guys. This is a move to a move, but it's like teams
that flip, you know, mid price contracts tend to have sweeteners, and
the Sun's just like, I don't really have any. They got some seconds
now that they sort of creatively you know, conjured, but like they don't
have first to attach. They don't have like young up and coming guys to
attach. They got minimums and they got these mid tier guys. Now,
it's not that easy to turn Nurkics into someone that's going to help you,
you know, in a meaningful way in the playoffs. So I just want
to I guess I just want to flag that, like to anyone that's saying
the Suns have depth, Now, I think we both kind of liked their
depth already, weirdly because they did so well on the minimum market. But
I I just it just leaves me a little cold. The return here and
again just circle all the way back. I think you're right. I think
it indicates that like they're just isn't a way forward with eighten anymore, which
is wild because like they also got rid of Monty Williams, so it's like
we just got rid of both sides of the conflict. Yeah, they actually
got rid of all three thoughts of the cough football apparently not because because if
I mean, maybe Booker and Katie and I don't know, did did Bradley
Beale meet eight and once at the practice facility? It's like, get this
kind of fun out of here. I don't understand, Like how Yeah,
I don't know. So the Sun side I'm not in love with, but
I guess I could be proved wrong if if you know, Alan shoots forty
five percent on nothing but wide open looks, which is totally plausible. There
are ways for it to work, but I'm not in love with it.
You have. I should have looked at what their roster count. I'll bring
up now end up at at the moment, but they probably have some fascinating
decisions to make because I'm counting six seven, eight, nine, ten,
eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen guys that
they're gonna have, so you're gonna have to cut that down. And I'm
just wondering, like, is Keyon Johnson really that long for Phoenix? Are
they gonna get rid of I've been getting rid of? I guess maybe do
you trust anyone here? I was gonna say you could get rid of Jordan
Goodwin, would you trust anyone else? Is that like fourth ball handler?
I don't really know what you want any other guy on the roster that can
dribble like Grayson Allen. I don't think you want doing that. So they
have some interesting roster decisions to make now, too, because I don't think
when push comes to shove one, I think a lot of time has been
spent on who's going to be their fifth guy, fifth most important player.
That obviously changes now like I do, but I don't know because the question
is who's their fourth most important player, and maybe by default it's just Nurkics.
Can he hold up on defense? But like I would argue right now
that you traded someone who probably would have been in a lot of your closing
lineups for nobody who's guaranteed a spot, And you're right, I wouldn't be
surprised if we saw a Volvo just go to like KD at the five.
Is that maybe he was always gonna do that, So maybe Eighton wasn't locked
in that regard. But it's just it's a very fascinating decision where it feels
more about the non basketball side of the business than out the actual basketball.
Yeah, I think I agree. We haven't really talked much about Portland's side
of it, partly because it seems unsettled because holidays seems very likely to be
rerouted. But as you're just kind of going through it, just you know,
as as it stands, you got Scooted, you got Holiday, you
got Aunt Simon's, you got Shaden Sharpe, you got Jeremy Grant, you
got DeAndre Ayden. Is it wrong that I'm like weirdly intrigued by that group,
Like there's too many guards for one, but like all, it's not
that bad. No, I think it's just I think what's clear, and
I'm sure to some extent, even if Damian Lillard wanted to play for everybody
that his contract would have been prohibitive for some teams to where maybe they still
acquire him, but they wouldn't be willing to give up as much this return
on the best player in franchise history who's still in his prime. It's pretty
unimpressive at the moment, and I think again, very TBD Frondy Blazers fans
that are listening, I do not know what they're gonna get for Drew Holiday.
We should probably talk out some teams that would make a lot of sensement
my Appey's probably one of them at this point. But I'm just like,
there's there's value in ripping off the band aid. So like now date,
you don't have to worry about Damien Lordy coming to training camp starting off Scoot
and Shaden's era on the wrong foot together, you have that flyer on eighton,
So I guess I think they treated eight and like, hey, he
might be an actual asset to us down the line, almost as part of
this, which maybe that's a little incomplete. I just wouldn't bet in favor
of it. I don't love this for them, but it also makes me
wonder, well, if they viewed this as better or comparable to my Amy's
offer, how bad was Miami's offer? Well, so, as I know,
I've already said, like this underwhelms me because of you know, what
what the Wizards got for Beal or you know even what you could say what
the Nets got for Durant. But like, let's just frame it this way,
so like, yeah, Eton, maybe Aton just you know, has
a better second chapter with the Blazers. He's the number one overall pick.
At least one team was willing to maximate an other one matched it, so
like he's not totally dead money. But like you get holiday. Let's say
you get two first for Holiday, and you also have control of the Bucks
draft in twenty eight, twenty nine, and thirty, Like that's a really
good Like those three picks there could be very good. Like that's that is
you know, we talk about lottery tickets all the time, but like if
you get two first for Drew and some more palatable salary, maybe you get
a young player and one first or something. I'm kind of starting to come
around on the Portland return a little bit. It's not it's underwhelming, but
like, did you hear your point? Yeah, that heat offer never seemed
all that great, and this is proof that it never was right unless unless
it is just totally a vindictive Blazers move of like we're not trading, which
you know what, I'll take that into the reaction and say that they did
a fantastic job here that I will. You did bring up an interesting point
just because like we we have to value that. We have to now analyze
this is like okay, well Dame's trade value just clearly like there weren't all
these teams coming out of Woodwork willing to trade for him while giving up anything
close to a premium, knowing he wanted in Miami, and so that has
to be a part of the evaluation as well. And so maybe the offers
were just in a perfect world where it's like let's say he was he wanted
to go to Toronto, maybe Toronto still wasn't willing to give up that much
for him. And I think you could look at it this way too,
Who is gonna get you more in a subsequent trade, is it Drew Holiday
with a player option, Tyler Hero with his extension kicking in, or ogi
aa Nobi just Don with his player options a flat out expiring contract because you
know you're going to decline it. I think it's reasonable to assume that of
those three players, if you always approached this by saying they were going to
reroute some of the meat and potatoes of this deal, to make the bet
that Drew Holiday is going to get you more as an individual trade asset than
those other two guys is probably a fair, if not accurate, one to
make. And I wanted to say this really quick. I threw it up
on the screen before from Thomas Scott. That's probably why Miami Toronto we're out.
They didn't want eight in a three team trade. It just whole Phoenix
like business that could have been done if they traded with torontof they trade with
Miami. Aton was never going to one of those teams. Yeah, I
want to get back to your Holiday point because I think it is interesting because
at least like and now I recognize I'm saying this in the wake of a
contending team trading Drew Holiday away, but he's the only guy of those three,
I think that a legit top tier contender would say, oh my god,
we'll give up, like you know, a young guy in some matching
salary and a first to get him, because he might be the piece that
we need. I'm trying, I'm struggling to think of who that is.
Maybe that's I don't know, we could talk. Maybe we just pivot into
holiday destinations because like he's the value that is unlike og and unlike Hero.
I think the money makes it tricky, because even with Hero's extension, that
holiday's big dollar figure this year and looming free agency complicates it. But like
the Clippers, you know, maybe heat, maybe that's a destination, the
Sixers, the Raptors, the heat. The heat strike me as the most
obvious, and that's assuming Portland will pick up the phone at all, which
maybe maybe it won't. Do you still run into it, are usual,
assuming Kyle Lowry, isn't that the order, Like, don't you still need
to pick up the phone then still find like the subsequent Tyler Hero trade,
Yeah, probably probably. I think if Miami, if Miami does get in
on holiday, maybe some other dominoes need to fall because why it does Portland
I mean, because Portland can't take Lowry back and assume it can flip him.
That's just like that's a buyout or you know, the pick package coming
back has to be so good and Miami just can't quite get there. New
Orleans from Thomas Scott would be doesn't really check the shooting box, but they
could use a floor dryer role. But yeah, going back to Portland in
that trade, I doubt you're trading like Jonis and and stuff. Well that's
the thing is like holiday again, That's what I'm kind of I guess I'm
in a roundabout way trying to say, is like there aren't unless you're a
full rebuilder. There aren't a lot of teams that would say we don't need
a Drew Holiday or like he can't help us right, Like the finances make
it complicated and like trims off a fair number of teams that just are not
gonna want to be on the hook for having to flip him or pay him
along an extension or try to keep him in free agency. But like he
definitely like I'll put it this way, if he is playing against the Bucks
in like a high leverage playoff series, it won't surprise me because those are
the types of teams I think that should be targeting him, and maybe Portland
can really capitalize on that. I don't know. Yeah, I mean,
let's even talk about something you mentioned the Clippers. That would be one disastrous
for James Harden if where's he going now, that's like expirings and if you
can get a pick and a swap in Terrence Man or even just maybe it's
a pick in Terrence Man because they can trade up to two first. I
don't think they're trading two first for Drew Holiday though. I mean you can
make him fake you can, yeah, right, I think. I mean,
but like if you can get some combination they have two first, they
can include a swap, and there's Terrence Man. Even if kJ Martin might
be interesting on this team, if there's if you're getting like two or three
of those assets plus the expirings that they can offer, that gets interesting.
I thought about if they weren't on the Dame sweepstakes, just because he still
makes so much money, I don't think they'd be in on Drew, but
Boston would make a lot of sense. They just need another playmaker. Maybe
he's not. I would prefer them to have been in on Dame rather than
going after Drew. I've seen some people mentioned like there should be something involved
with like Philly should be interesting and Drew as part of some sort of complex
hard and trade. Maybe he's going to the Clippers if you're getting Drew and
like the Clippers pick as part of that or something. Because then Drew's expiring,
he fits through your cap space motif for next season, assuming he declines
his player option. I kind of understand them, and like, what is
who is sending what that Portland is doing that deal, which makes it difficult.
Do any other teams stand out to you? I thought momentarily about he
would be Chicago popped up for me a little bit. I don't know if
they would be a team like that we have in the I threw it up
there, Thomas Scotts at New Orleans, we went through that. Someone in
the chat ram said Spurs need a vet. I just can't. They're not
gonna keep up assets to get That's the type of team that I think,
like again it yeah, he would. It would be great to have him
there as as like the adult, but the money is just like he can't,
you can't in good conscience do that if you're the Spurs, are you
ready to anger a fan base? I feel like I have would like Orlando
think about it. Listen, you're talking like you'll never convince me that Orlando's
guards are good. So yes, Orlando okay, and should definitely be in
on Alliday. This might be our longest standing disagreement. No, my list,
I think just knee jerk. Was Miami, the Clippers, Philly,
Boston who you mentioned? That would be fascinating? I don't know, how
do you how do you get there with Boston? Brogden's in it because he's
upset, I guess apparently healthy though, which makes me like, so were
the Clippers just like faking well? I don't know. And in Toronto,
so it's all the usual suspects and ironically, I mean maybe or surprisingly,
four of the five that I like as logical holiday destinations are still in the
East. So this is gonna contribute to my prognostication that Holiday will see the
Bucks in a playoff series. Boston's tough because now one, the Blazers probably
don't have interest in r W three just because they have eight, and I
don't think you trade r W three for Drew I get it if you were
going brogged in and him for Dame. So it's tough to get there for
Boston, do you know what would be the out there team? And like
they have a ton of guards already, but they don't have a guard who
can do this stuff. If Utah was just like, hey, we've got
all these like you want to like kind of just flimsy first rounders and we're
gonna like figure out the salary stuff, he'd be really good there. They
again, they have guards, but like Drew Holiday would probably immediately become their
best passer anyway. Yeah, yeah, no, I think yeah. I
mean that's the doesta is Utah interest though in like are we going for it?
It doesn't it feels like Utah would be content with like another Well I
don't know. Jazz fans will probably disagree, but like, I don't think
Utah is like in position to make some kind of leap this year. I
think their win total is going to be in the thirties and with Holiday it's
maybe in the forties. And you're a first round out or something like,
and then you lose him or you have to overpay him, like that's that's
that's tough. It's got to be an East contender. I don't know why
I keep circling back to that, or Tonso might become, you know,
a bigger threat with him, Thomas Scott's Memphis or Minnesota could work. Memphis
with John Marcus Smart, I don't really think that's a good fit. And
they're like, I guess would Smart be part of that deal once he could
be aggregated again? So I don't love them. Minnesota's interesting. He would
definitely be a defensive upgrade from Mike Conley, but you would be worth all
probably shooting and who's going back to Portland and that well, I mean like
it's another like Mike Conley's probably involved in that trade and you're figuring out stuff
from there. So I don't love that either. I'm probably with you that
In needs to be in East contender. It's way too as we just went
through complicated for Boston to get there, or a team that just fits like
like I mean, India does not need guards. I just what is the
I'm just like, what is the look for Miami? Like, what is
that trade? I guess getting to the salaries fairly easy, but if it's
basically right, what are the optics of Hey, this package couldn't get us
David Millar, but we're gonna go out and just get one of the players
that he was traded for. So is there really good I'm just trying to
think of, like, what's a team that would I would love him in
Orlando. This will be very unpopular and Sam Presti already came out and said
fuck you to everybody who was calling for the Thundery trade or something. But
you could. I would love to see Drew in Okay, see with Chet
Sga and Jalen Williams. I like Josh Giddy too, and I think you
could. This is Drew as someone you could get without giving up any of
your prime time assets. Yeah, but you have Davis Berton's and some of
the salary questions there that's in the West. I don't spot. I know.
I just I know you've called like Toronto and Miami kind of obvious.
I just don't know. I guess they are obvious, but I don't know
if they're obvious because it just I don't know what the packages all of a
sudden look like for them. Would you give up Og for Drew? You
probably wouldn't. If you're Toronto, right, oh man, that yeah,
I don't think so, because I don't. I mean, he does feel
a pretty significant need there with Van Vleet gone, and like our Dennis Schroeder
is gonna be the starting point guard presumably right. I guess maybe Scotty Barnes
is going to do a lot of your ball handling. But just looking down
the list, like, are the Knicks someone we should talk about? Is
there anything there? I mean, so this will be wildly unpopular among the
Knicks fans as well. I actually would love Drew Holiday because like he can
check wings. Look, you've already leaned into the Hey, everybody's undersized model,
like all our wings are under size. It's hepar j Barrett. I
just if it's just I'm laughing Cleveland to back up Mitchell from Thomas Scott.
I mean, they got Garland and Mitchell. Let's I mean, what are
they trading Jared Allen and stuff? I don't even know if they get to
the salary without including Mobli or than one of you got. And again,
Portland has eighten now, so you're hard pressed to believe they're gonna trade for
another young center. But I don't know, Man, the Knicks. Like
I'm gonna tell you right now, I'm still semi hopeful for RJ. Barrett.
But if it's like Fourier and Barrett and that's just gonna get you Drew
Holiday and maybe you have to give up like one of the picks that were
maybe it's super heavily protected, I would probably do it. You are very
small then, and like you have Josh Hart, dont Devencenzo, Drew Holiday,
Jalen Brunson on the same team. I would look at it. I
would like it's it's kind of you get out of the RJ. Barrett deal.
Maybe you're not feeling super confident again. I think RJ. Barrett could
be good. He's just not worth catering your team around. And I think
he very much needs to be in a situation that might be more prepared to
do that. And the next time, I just want to allow that if
there was a trade where you could like Julius Randalls involved in there, and
it's Julius Randall on picks, maybe that makes some sense. I mean,
Julius Rando was better than Drew last year. Definitely offensively he was better than
Drew, So there's that to factor in They're not an obvious team. But
if I'm the Knicks, just because of what it probably would have cost it
to get Dame Drew Holiday, probably would intrigue me more than a Damian Lillard
trade would. Again, just because the opportunity costs. That's a that's a
good I just I'm coming back to, like, if you would to pick
one team where like you want them to go out and make a play for
Drew Holiday, who is it? It's realistic, It's Miami. It's got
to be a Rando for me. I just don't. I guess I'm not
in love. I guess it would be really good in Miami. But it's
more than like Miami has like no recourse. Now, I'm like, mam,
he just has to has to come out of this offseason with something to
show for it. So yeah, Brian, chance you think the Bucks tampered.
I think everybody tampers. Like that's if the Bucks hadn't tampered. Oh,
by the way, did you see this video that everybody's dredging up?
Now? The All Star Draft, when you're honest, makes Lillard the first
pick, and it makes him his first pick and Lebron like kind of gives
him some side. I like, I see what you're doing because he picked
him over holiday. So that's fun. I mean it's nothing, Dan,
honestly, but it's fun. I will say, yeah, every team tampers.
And here's the big question. Do you think Milwaukee tampered more than Miami
did? Absolutely not, No, no chance. Uh, okay, one
more, just because I want to see what she'll say. What about the
Kings. There's a team that needs someone that can guard someone. Can you
get there with like you probably gotta have Keegan Murray in the deal, and
that might be just a just we're done talking for a lot of kids fans,
But you could get there with you know, with you pick the salary,
Hurder Monk Barnes. I don't know if you can trade Barnes. You
can't trade Barnes right now and get into the salary, so it would be
Hurder and Davion Mitchell get you too. That's like twenty one million. That's
just not I don't think they have the because they're not trading Domas, who
was just negotiate an extending a Fox. Correct, you can't trade Barnes.
I don't think they're getting there. Hey, Hey, Hey, don't don't
laugh, don't hate on it. Warriors have that CP three contract flow,
they could maybe look at that. Would you come off the bench or he
would actually make I would I would start him if he wanted to start,
just because that lineup would still make more sense than CP three. You're starting
five, I think could maybe if you're the Warriors, you make the call.
I think it's that it's that interesting because if you could do it,
well, I don't know what you're throwing in right, Like maybe do you
have to include the Warriors are pretty encumbered pick wise, really not too badly
you could do well, why does but then would you holiday, uh oh
yeah, probably who? But then Portland's just flipping Paul though. Think if
it from the Blazer side, it's like, okay, so cool, we
got another aging point guard that we have to find a home for. If
if it came me tack to a pick in cominga, I don't think the
Warriors would do it quite frankly, they maybe they should. Well, you
gotta get to how do you get the money, how do you how are
we getting there? Well, it just takes me just like that might be
Paul cominga and a pick is probably too much. Paul is at thirty point
eight, So Paul and cominga just immediately get you to Drew Holidays salary.
Maybe it's moody and Paul and a poor and a pick. I don't know.
I don't know. I mean definitely, like I don't know that it
totally would eliminate all of the well, who's going to start questions for the
Warriors, because like, clearly Paul should come off the bench. It's like
everyone's saying all the right things. All the coaching staff and the front office
is saying, we're gonna check it out. We're gonna spend all of camp
looking and seeing what the best lineups are where everyone like if you hook them
up to a polygraph would say like, yeah, of course Chris Paul should
run the second unit. That's like a no brainer. You can't take Looney
out of the first unit. You're not going to take Clay out of it.
Everybody else is just like non negotiable. But Holiday doesn't. I mean,
Holiday kind of creates the same issues, like who are you benching if
Holiday is there instead of Paul? Is the calculus any different? M I
don't think it is. No except for the fact that because of what Holiday
does defensively, it's probably just easier to say we don't like if he needs
to start, he'll start, that's fine, Yeah, yeah right, he
and he would be more likely to close than Paul. I think too,
if you do take Looney off the floor or like, I don't know,
it's it's the Warrior starting five is so set that like it'd be hard to
come up with someone that you definitely like, yeah, sorry, Clay where
even though Thompson like definitely is someone that you could bring off the bench based
on his like his I wonder if Holliday is like ego list enough to where
I think you could maybe sell him on like is he coup or is he
just like is he starting? And then you're just going to staggered units very
quickly because I don't think you're paying cavad money bench guy money. Yeah,
but he's more than bench guy important, especially since they're just not going to
sign another Could you play matchups? Like could you sell Holiday on that?
Yeah? I think I think where it's like the Warriors kind of saved CP
three from Basketball Siberia at this point, but if he's like really wants to
start, they don't want to be like, well, we're gonna send you
another rebuilding team, then you go and figure it out. Well, that's
the thing is, like Paul would be on like five teams this offseason if
this happens, because the Blazers would not keep him, they would have to
trade him someplace else. I just I don't know. Yeah, we're clearly
running out of teams. If we're I have I have a team actually that
we haven't spoke about, and I'm wondering if we should. What about the
Nets? Yeah, really are short on ball handlers. Yeah, and they
might be willing to pay him too. I don't know. I mean,
that's I don't know why that doesn't jump out as like a real, like
no brainer fit, because maybe if you don't buy like I do, that
they're kind of like, but it's more justifiable. They're in the middle of
it's not an existential crisis, but it's like an existential search. But I
just because they don't I don't think they know what they are. They don't
really know how good they're going to be with this. Mcal Bridges, Nick
Klaxton, Core, I mean, Drew Holiday comes in and they look,
you know, they have Cam Johnson. If I'm assuming you would have to
keep him as part of that deal, maybe getting to the money is tough.
I've not looked at I mean, if they're I don't know the Blazers
will take back Ben Simmons just because his contract only has two years left.
But you do have Spencer Dinwoody that you could step out of your way there
and Royce O'Neill. I just if you're trying to be competitive, and I
don't want to say in the middle, but like if you're trying to follow
that route, holiday feels like, yeah, Dame is too much because of
how many years he has left and probably what the Blazers wanted, but it
is holidaying in between because he's basically functionally an expiring contract. Yeah. No,
that's that's an interesting one. I don't have a lot else do you
want? Can I can you just give me a holiday of the Celtics Brian
Chance? Yeah, it's trickery. It would you trade if you're the Celtics
and let's just say, because honestly r W three had a better season than
Beyond Rayton last year. If you're let's just say, there's other teams involved.
But if you are the Celtics. Would you even consider Brogden in RW
three four Drew Holiday progdon at RW three for Holiday, I mean, I
think I would consider it for sure. I'm trying to decide if, like
that's a definite go for the Celtics, because it does. I don't think
it's definite. No, I don't think so either. I think it's somewhere
between. I'd consider it and fall short of a definite go. But like,
well you you we started this out, Well you you in your opinion,
and don't correct me if I'm wrong. The Lillard acquisition makes the books
prohibitive favorites in the East. Do you think who I mean the team?
The other team? The Celtics. First of all, Cleveland's the other team,
bossing and kiss my ass. That's a hot take. You gotta say
that. I don't mean Boston's gonna be really good. That was like super
over aggressive Bill Simmons Podcast of Me. I apologize, but they took just
a monumental risk this offseason. They aren't a playmaking deficit compared to last season.
They are not as defensively versatile. They are more injury prone, just
because look at your front line Horford's getting older, he's your most reliable guy
between RW three and Chris Stops. Where is the okay you could play Peyton,
Pritchard Moore. Maybe Malcolm Brodden's healthy. That's great, Like Malcolm brod
didn't didn't give you enough playmaking to begin with. I'm open to the idea
that Marcus Smart was on the decline and it made sense to move him.
I just don't know if this direction that they just aside they have to play
two bigs at all times now, and what if my honestly, I'm wondering
Al Horford in r W three might still be their most effective high ceiling two
big lineup. I don't mean to disparage what Chris Stops did last year,
but it was last year. He was never that healthy since like his one
of his early seasons in New York, he was hitting these like turnarounds and
fall aways and making these passes that we've really never seen before. I'm open
again to the idea that he's gotten better. That Washington Wizards team was also
ass like, so he's gonna have to play a more streamlined role regardless.
I just and it's still I want to make clear, still wouldn't be a
no brainer to say, hey, this package, let's go get Drew because
now you're even you're thinner than you're consolidating and then it's okay, well we
have Horford and Christops porzingis how much like are we too thin now on the
front line with collective availability? And I'm just assuming all Horford won't be able
to play as many minutes because he's getting older. So but I think the
team right now, this is sorry to detour us all the way here is
I would have Milwaukee is the clear one and the team that I'd be most
threatened by is Cleveland right now. Yeah, I mean that's that's totally different.
I just think I think the Celtics I co sign all of the like
the Celtics look a massive risk. I do think their ceiling is higher than
it was last year, but the floor so I'm honestly why, you know,
I think I think a couple of reasons. One, I think Smart
was in pretty clear decline, and I think he is sort of less important
on a team with a bunch of bigs that can defend the rim, you
know, which is what this version of the Celtics is. I think the
Celtics got hurt when teams would switch and Porzingis can just punish small guys in
the post. It gives them, It gives us more opens to go to
on offense, which like we've belabored this, you know, we've beaten this
into the ground. When the Celtics struggle their offense, like just the you
know, the works get gummed up and things just don't happen. Porzingis is
like a guy that can well he's gonna be able to shoot over somebody,
or he's gonna pull a big out of the middle. They're just like he
just opens the offense up. And since I viewed that as their biggest problem
in you know, their stalled playoff runs, I can see the vision of
like, this is how we maybe and the risks are immense and you've listened
to them, and I agree, this is maybe how we hit that highest
possible level of our team. But yeah, no, I just think I
think anyone who says the Celtics are like, oh, they're definitely the best
team they had they won the offseason, like that's that's too much for me,
But yeah, we're way off the track. If this clearly ends with
James Harden going to the Clippers, Drew Holiday going to the Sixers, the
heat just like packing it in and deciding they're not going to be an NBA
franchise anymore, and the Blazers getting who knows what like fourteen megatrade is the
only way this gets resolved. We're gonna pivot to the well, like basically
the TikTok YouTube segment that is now unnamed because Grant pointed out that Garbage Time
was a Katie Nolan show and we don't want to go out that title.
We gotta but its good name. Ideas for that send them our way,
Discord, YouTube comments, whatever, Twitter, you know, the socials.
I guess my final question here would be is there a chance? And we're
gonna get into big picture questions That's what that segment is gonna be. I'm
excited to bend Grant's brain with what I have in my notes. Is there
like a chance if you're the Blazers that you sit on Drew Holiday for because
I know the reporting was oh immediately, but like there could just be a
team that comes out of the woodwork and is either better than they expected or
an injury crops up that they know that they need. Like, what if,
just as an example, because someone mentioned the Spurs in the chat,
what if it's just Wenby's too good, Devin Vassell's too good. The Spurs
are like, you know, like play and worthy and it's like January.
So if you're the Blazers, do you think there's a chance Because we mentioned
teams, but like, I don't know, you mentioned Miami's an obvious fit.
I don't. I don't see the team out there that I'm like,
you know what, They're gonna give up two first round picks for the equipment
for Drew Holiday right now? We could probably guess. And so I'm just
wondering, do you think there's a chance that this sort of drags on?
Well, yeah, I was gonna ask you that, but on a different
kind of track, which is like Holiday is roundly regarded, as you know,
among the most professional guys in the league. Like he's just a great
teammate, he models all the right payers, Like is that the worst thing
to have on the Blazers through the trade dead like up to the trade deadline?
You know, from from that perspective, like, I think you're right
that the package just may not be there. Now and it may be there
later. But I think there's also real value potentially, and like I mean
again, there's a log jam in the backcourt. The Blazers have a bunch
of young guys they want to play a ton you can't keep like a forty
million dollar guy on the roster as like a chaperone. But I think Holiday
would have real value for guys like Sharp, even guys like Simons who've been
around a little bit. Certainly for guys like Scoot just to be like,
here's what it means to be a professional who's gonna have a really great career
and last for fifteen years. Like that, there's value there. So I
think worst case isn't so bad if if if worst case is in fact that
like the Blazers can't find no a no brainer return for Holiday like right now.
Also the other thing too is maybe the Portland Thorns they could sell Lauren
Holiday I'm playing for them, and that might make Drew more open to staying
in Portland a little bit longer. That's probably what this was about all along.
I think this is just a long as recruiting base to get Lauren Holiday
out of retirement, playing a long game in Portland. Are you ready to
pivot into the DVD segment for you know what? Also, if any of
you didn't say this, but if anybody knows Katie Nolan, just ask her
if she would be cool with us calling this SEP segment garbage time since that
show hasn't been on the air for like five years. Yeah, So if
you know Katie Nolan, yeah, definitely, and then let us know.
Okay, So my first one is, would you rather have Jannis Dame and
Chris Middleton next season? Or Devin Booker, Kevin Durant and Bradley Beal.
That's such a good question, Dan, I think I'd I think I'd rather
have Jannis Dame and Chris Middleton. But that is so stupidly close that I
hate my answer. I would agree with you for what it's worth, but
it feels unbelievably close. What would have been the better? Which Big Three?
Would you have rather have had Jannis, Chris Middleton and Damian Lillard or
BAM Jimmy Butler and Damian Lillard. I kind of still think it's Janis.
I think it's the Bucks Big Three just because of Jannis. I think he's
just better than all those guys, and Dame is like a perfectly complimentary superstar
for him. You have to pick one of these teams to win a championship
next season? Are you taking the Bucks with Damian Lillard, the Denver Nuggets,
the Phoenix Suns, the Boston Celtics, and that's is that five?
That's Denver Nuggets. You have to pick one of these teams to win the
title next season, the Bucks with Damian Lillard, the Boston Celtics, the
Phoenix Suns, the Denver Nuggets, or let's throw another or the Cleveland Cavaliers.
You didn't say the Golden State Warriors, which would be Yeah, they
don't belong on this They don't belong on this list. This is gonna have
to be a talk me down segment. I'll go with the Bucks just to
get on the getting you know what. I'm gonna go Denver. Denver's the
champs until somebody beats them. Yeah, I'm still picking Denver by the way
I think well as of right now to win. I just feel like the
Bucks are the prohibitive favorite in the East. If you are Milwaukee right now
following this trade, who is the biggest who do you view as the biggest
threat to you? Which team are you most concerned about matching up with in
the Easter or in the entire league in the East. In the East,
I think I'm still most concerned about Boston because you just don't have enough guys
to guard Tatum and Brown with this roster in Milwaukee. And this is kind
of my final question is so open ended. Is there a better better duo
on paper in a league right now then Yannis Attact the Coupo and Damian Lillard.
I don't think so because it's the only one, as I'm just thinking
off the top of my head that has two top ten guys or you definitely
say are in the two times? Who am I missing? If that's not
the case, I guess that would be would you rather have Katie and Booker
or Jannis and Dame. I think I'd rather have Yiannis and Dame to be
honest. The availability stuff is big here, but like Jannis has dealt with
some injuries at this point, yeah, during just like Duran talps out at
like fifty something games now, though you know, I mean maybe in if
you're talking about a playoff series, that's maybe different. But I just you
know, I think Jannis is just Jannis is better than all those guys,
even this is maybe not the best time to say that, because he was
like a little bit worse last year. I just wonder, when you're looking
at the duo specifically, I know you expanded to trios and we already did,
there's more two way upside collectively, and well, yannest is so dominant
himself, like Devin Booker and KD are much better on defense than Damian Lillard
is, and so there might be there's more two way balance, I guess
in that duo. But I'm just like I would honestly say, I still
might want to pick Yannis and Dame. I don't know if this is more
about the East, but Dame and Devin Booker are more guaranteed to be top
ten players, both top ten players next year. That are excuse me,
Booker and KD are more guaranteed to be top ten players than both Jannis and
Dame because Jannie, yes, he's two. I think Yokich is unquestionably the
best player in the league, but he could be one that's reasonable. And
then as Dame is sort of like he's entering that phase of his career where
will he still be up there? What's he look like on a new team?
And so for you to feel better, I just it's tough. I
think it's close. The thing I think and I got, I'm expanding beyond
the parameters of your question. But like I love the Dame is not a
good defender. I do think point of attack, point guard defense isn't super
important. But Dame as like, your offense is good if you have Damian
Lillard basically like without any other qualifiers and having him backed now on the other
end by Brook, Lopez and Jannie is like, that's some pretty good balance.
That's a level of balance. Who cares. I don't know how much
balance matters that the Suns certainly don't have. The Suns are like just incredibly
duplicative in their best three players, the Bucks of the Bucks. Like,
that's a sensible roster construction, you know, at least I'm talking about like
three guys because the rest of the roster I'm not in love with. But
you can get away with Dame's defense if you have Lopez and Jannis behind him,
And I guess, so what would be a more compelling matchup? Let's
just fast forward to the finals. Would it be Bucks and Denver right now?
Or Bucks and Phoenix is not the only commodating or is there or do
you prefer you know, Bucks versus Warriors and that like what would be the
most fascinating finals matchup? Look, you're asking here again. I told you
you're gonna have to do the talk me down segment on the Warrior's title shot
this year because it's my factory in a Drew trade already. But I'm factoring
in Chris Paul's sixth Man of the Year campaign. I think i'd want to
see Janis against Yokich. I think I don't know, I'm simple that way.
I think that's what i'd want to see the Suns. The Suns are
gonna be awesome, but they don't like, they don't move me. I'm
not I'm not as interested in seeing the Suns as like this Bucks team now
and the Nuggets are just always awesome, and I think they'll be there.
I have another one that just came to me. Okay, who is more
likely to be traded again by this time or sorry, who was more likely
to be traded by this time next year? Damian Lillard from the Bucks or
Joel embiide from the Sixers, ebid. I think that there's still so much
chick going on with the Sixers that like, I'm I'm shocked honestly that we
haven't heard more rumblings and that we've in fact heard like no, he's good,
he's happy to be there, and Beat is yeah. I think em
Beat is my no brainer picked there or do you disagree? I mean,
they're not gonna I agree, But there was zero as normally while you think
I was like, oh, they're just like yeah, beat idiot. When
he finally gave me one, I had a strong opinion on So you know,
Uh, the last wrap up here at Roy to Trapp, he says,
why are you guys so focused on the Bucks offense? Their defense got
worse and it's gonna show. I mean we talked about their defense in the
beginning of the pod. I just questioned, you have Jannie, you have
Brook Lopez that I think you can cobble together enough. Look, I think
the problem here is is you have to assume that you're gonna get good help
from Chris Middleton, and if you don't, you're better equipped to win win
with Dame than you were with through Holiday and I have two guys that could
win Defensive Player of the Year, So I'm not I'm not worried about their
defense. That's I mean, that's yeah. I just I think that's just
a fair way to look at it. And there's just maybe Pat Connaughton has
a bounce back year. They have enough stuff to like their perimeter defensive core
right now is not anywhere near like no, the bottom of the leekue well,
and it's not good either, But like when you have a really good
defensive center who can stretch the floor and a point guard that also stretches the
floor, like maybe more than anyone ever, you can put a couple of
guys that aren't going to shoot it out there like you, that are just
there to guard. You can go get your like the modern equivalent of like
the Andre Robertson or what you know, go get your Tony Allen like you
can. You can handle those guys when you have a one and a five
that can bomb it. I wish I had another just trade scenario with Dame
from a walk and they can make it harder for you. I don't.
I don't have one. That was just I'm so I thought you were need
to think about that more. I would agree with you for what it's worth.
But oh, who's more likely to be traded by this time next year,
Damian Lillard or Jimmy Butler. Oh so I got to admit, like
my first reaction, or among my first reactions, was, oh, Jimmy
might like I said it, Jimmy, Jimmy might be the guy that's like,
Okay, well we didn't get the guy you said we would, so
now I'm out like that that would be a Jimmy Butler thing to do.
So I'll say, Jimmy, I just he's campaign him pretty hard for the
heat by accusing Milwaukee of Tampa. He feels like he might be pretty invested
in in Miami. Do you have anything else on this before we skid out
out it? We did? Oh, we did over an hour. This
was, of course we did because we talked about christ Apps Porzingis for fifteen
minutes. He wasn't fifteen maybe twelve at the absolute most. But otherwise,
do you want to take us out of here? Yeah? No, I'm
trying. I mean, what a fascinating trade. This is way more fun
than if you'd just gone to Miami because of the rare trade by the way,
where it feels like if you had to pick, there's one winner and
then kind of like two, it feels like two losers or what. There's
there's every level. There's a queer winner with Milwaukee, a TVD with Portland
unless you kind of skewed towards And the other thing we Probab didn't mention enough
is Dame in his camp really did nuke his trade value and so to get
this under those circumstances is probably a win. So I think back everything I
said, I think the most. The biggest question coming out of this is
sort of just I don't want to say WTF because I understand it, but
what is going on in Phoenix? Right? Windhors fingers, Oh, man,
we well we'll find out. I can't. Well, I'm very interested
for the DeAndre Aten leaks to start coming, Like, what really happened last
Someone right to tell all? Right now the information you've been sitting on you
want to publish if you're gonna be around the team. Someone dropped the tell
all immediately get the timely well yeah, gets get the timeline pod guys back
on and say, okay, for real what happens? Like of course we
freaking We did talk about it, like eight and nurkis swap on that thing,
so it worked out. But we were It's funny because we were talking
about in the terms of the rumor stoting around where well, what if they
got og and all three of us agree, like it's just not happening,
like not for eighten and you have nothing else to give. They talked about,
well if it's like a four team or a three teamer and Caleb Martin's
coming over from the heat. Even by those standards, this was kind of
like, oh, like they were done with Adrey the inexperience expired in twenty
twenty three. Yeah, no, that's all I got. So I will
say thank you to everybody that jumped into comment. Thanks everyone that We'll watch
or listen to this later. As Dan mentioned at the top, if you
want to help us grow the podcast and this YouTube channel and everything else,
please rate, review, subscribe wherever you consume this, join our discord,
buy our merch The links for that are in our YouTube page, at Hardwood
Knox on Twitter, at Hardwood Knox on TikTok, at Harwood Underscore Knox on
Instagram. I think that covers it. Thanks again to everybody that jumped in
here. Sorry we didn't talk as much as I had hoped about Rudy Gay,
but I think we did pretty well all things considered, So as always,
we closed with an apology. What do we always close with? Shout
out Jesus Christ? Said Frank Milatina handed out an apology, carried out h