1 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:17,480 This is a studio both and production. Join me in some of the researchers 2 00:00:17,519 --> 00:00:22,800 tonight Thursday, March twenty first after the show at nine pm Eastern on YouTube. 3 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:27,039 For live stream discussion about the episode, go to the show notes for 4 00:00:27,079 --> 00:00:30,199 a link to the live stream. The only thing we want to know. 5 00:00:30,879 --> 00:00:33,799 We're worried about her, okay, and we're sorry we're beating you up all 6 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:38,520 right, but you're our best pulp right now of getting to the bottom of 7 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:42,039 this. And like we said, we've been doing this for six weeks. 8 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,119 Great, well, thank you for coming in today. We really appreciate you 9 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,079 being here. And I know that you've been through a lot and there's a 10 00:00:49,079 --> 00:00:53,799 lot going on that you probably have questions about, and we'll try to help 11 00:00:53,799 --> 00:00:56,920 where we can. And he just wants to give you the information your read 12 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:03,399 and be in and out as soon as we understand that. We uh, 13 00:01:03,439 --> 00:01:06,079 just so you know, you're at the US Attorney's office and this is uh, 14 00:01:06,159 --> 00:01:08,719 we're we're conducting a federal investigation as well. I know you've spoken with 15 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:12,680 the Anguish Police Department and we've heard some of that, but not all of 16 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:15,120 it. So forgive us if some of the things we ask are the same. 17 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:22,359 It's just because we're trying to use things together ourselves. Do you have 18 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:26,439 any questions for us before we kind of just well, I've been just trying 19 00:01:26,439 --> 00:01:30,519 to make sure we're not talking about her being a target in any way or 20 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,560 suspect on it anyway. Oh, you're you're not currently a target of this 21 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:38,680 investigation, which means that we don't think you've committed a crime related to what 22 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,480 mister keys Uh is charged with now, which is access device fraud. You 23 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:48,200 should also know that he's being investigated and we have evidence showing that he's involved 24 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,879 in the abduction of Uh Samantha Coneing, which I'm sure you've heard on the 25 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:56,480 news they you know, Yeah, Okay, So I mean doesn't make it 26 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:01,719 super clear. Sure she sh She's obviously can because they've been right known each 27 00:02:01,719 --> 00:02:07,639 other for a long time and I've been under the depression. He didn't have 28 00:02:07,719 --> 00:02:12,479 anything to do with it. Because of her personal knowledge, She's plenty willing 29 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:17,879 to give any information that might help. Okay, But it's not a situation 30 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:23,439 where she's going to be you know, she's gonna be confronted us though she 31 00:02:23,479 --> 00:02:28,759 had done something wrong on or that she's she hasn't measured up. We're not 32 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:30,560 We're not treating you that way. We're not looking at you that way. 33 00:02:30,759 --> 00:02:34,479 And let me just explained that the whole reason you got served with the grand 34 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:36,800 jury's poenis, you know, we weren't sure. We really, you know, 35 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:38,919 wanted to make sure that you wanted to you know, we had an 36 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:42,919 opportunity to ask you questions, but you know, we didn't know what your 37 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,240 frame of mind mold is. A lot of this wasn't explained to us. 38 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:47,080 We hadn't listened to the interviews. We've listened to the interviews. Now, 39 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:51,879 you know, as long as you're cooperat about you know, at least at 40 00:02:51,879 --> 00:02:53,879 this point, we don't see the need to drag you in front of the 41 00:02:53,879 --> 00:02:57,360 grand jury. I mean that that's not the way we operate. We simply 42 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:02,919 just want to get the information out there. This is true crime bullshit. 43 00:03:04,599 --> 00:03:09,039 I'm your host, Josh Hollmark, and this is a serialized story of Israel 44 00:03:09,199 --> 00:03:23,000 Keys. In the very first episode of this podcast, over five years ago, 45 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:28,439 I asked what seemed at the time to be a fair and simple question, 46 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:38,479 should we have empathy for serial killers? That single question became incredibly polarizing 47 00:03:38,879 --> 00:03:46,719 and garnered a significant amount of hate toward me, and all these years later, 48 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:53,319 it's a question I still don't have an answer for, although at times 49 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:59,479 I have found myself empathizing with Israel Keys, an act that doesn't negate what 50 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:03,800 a terrible person I think he was. It doesn't excuse his actions, his 51 00:04:03,919 --> 00:04:15,479 duplicity, his heartlessness. Characterizing someone as evil or as a monster gives them 52 00:04:15,639 --> 00:04:20,279 a lot of power. It also takes away a lot of your own power. 53 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:26,680 If you can't see someone as human, then how can you really see 54 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:32,279 them at all. It's his humanity that makes him fallible, prone to pattern, 55 00:04:32,759 --> 00:04:40,040 identifiable, understandable, and the more we understand a person, the more 56 00:04:40,079 --> 00:04:49,079 we can predict their behavior. It's very easy to see the bird's eye view 57 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:56,879 of this case and make judgments based on that very singular view. Anything in 58 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:05,319 writing is often wildly different than it is is in actuality. The facts of 59 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:13,079 this case five years ago were that Kimberly didn't cooperate with the investigation. It 60 00:05:13,199 --> 00:05:16,680 was said in interview, it was written in the files, and so it 61 00:05:16,759 --> 00:05:23,240 became fact. One thing I'm incredibly proud of is how this podcast has broken 62 00:05:23,319 --> 00:05:31,319 down the mythology surrounding Israel Keys, the mythology based on written materials that made 63 00:05:31,399 --> 00:05:39,120 him some sort of super predator. People glommed on to the most interesting aspects 64 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:45,399 of Keys and his crimes, overlooked the mundanity of his humanity, and turned 65 00:05:45,439 --> 00:05:51,439 him into the most methodical serial killer ever, a biohacking killing machine, the 66 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:59,399 only serial killer with impulse control, and so on and so on. But 67 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:04,600 we know now that none of that is true. It's the truth, slowly 68 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:15,040 editorialized over and over again over time into mythology. But in order to actually 69 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:19,399 connect Keys to his crimes and actually see the story for what it is, 70 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:26,519 we have to see it in its entirety, not the cherry picked pieces people 71 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:30,759 want to sell us, not the exaggeration of a person, not the person 72 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:41,800 as a monster, but the person as he actually was. Between March thirteenth 73 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:47,240 and April twenty ninth of twenty twelve, Kimberly was interviewed by APD and or 74 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:54,600 the FBI at least four different times. However, there are indications that there 75 00:06:54,639 --> 00:06:59,360 were at least two additional interviews. With the files that we were able to 76 00:06:59,439 --> 00:07:04,600 obtain, we can confirm that she spent a minimum of six hours answering questions 77 00:07:04,639 --> 00:07:12,920 about Keys, her relationship, her sex life, their travels, his family, 78 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:17,480 his work, their finances, and so on. Following Keys's arrest, 79 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:23,720 Kim lost access to her home and car, both of which were considered crime 80 00:07:23,759 --> 00:07:30,000 scenes. Her phone and her wallet were also confiscated, so she had nowhere 81 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,360 to go, no way to reach anyone, and no cash or credit cards 82 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:39,319 to get a hotel or even a taxi. And yet she continued to meet 83 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:44,279 with the FBI and answer questions. She even went as far as to hand 84 00:07:44,319 --> 00:07:50,000 over her phone a second time without asking for a warrant. And yet Monique 85 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:57,319 Dahl treated her like a dog, and still Kim kept going back, and 86 00:07:57,399 --> 00:08:05,680 she kept cooperating after she lawyered up. The Kimberly interviews have become incredibly important, 87 00:08:07,759 --> 00:08:13,360 not just to the FBI's investigation into Keys, but also for our investigation 88 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:18,879 into Keys and his potential victims. They've given us a very clear look at 89 00:08:18,959 --> 00:08:24,800 keys life in Alaska, his relationships, his free time, places he frequented, 90 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:28,839 how he and Kim spent time together, how he and Sarah spent time 91 00:08:28,879 --> 00:08:35,080 together, drugs and medications he was using, prescribed and otherwise lies he told 92 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:43,159 when exactly Sarah was there, and when exactly she wasn't, when exactly Kimberly 93 00:08:43,279 --> 00:08:48,519 was there, and when exactly she wasn't, and so on and so on. 94 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:54,200 For starters, both Monique dol and the FBI had a very strong interest 95 00:08:54,279 --> 00:09:03,000 in Keyes's drug use. I know as real as a drug problem. Mkay. 96 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:05,799 Uh, I'm not gonna tell you that. I think we both already 97 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:11,240 know. Kay. You're you're you're a medical professional. You're just as observant 98 00:09:11,279 --> 00:09:16,000 as I am. You you know what's going on. Okay, this isn't 99 00:09:16,039 --> 00:09:18,360 a drug case. I'm not interested in making a drug case. I haven't 100 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:22,120 been working for twenty hours a day, six weeks to make a drug case. 101 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:26,519 That's not what I do, Okay. I come out for the big 102 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:31,200 stuff. I come out to find the missing girl. My one and only 103 00:09:31,039 --> 00:09:35,759 mission right now is to either get this girl back home safe to her dad, 104 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:43,679 or to recover her remains for her father. Okay. And I can 105 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:50,399 tell you that that is absolutely my number one priority. Okay. I'm again, 106 00:09:50,639 --> 00:09:56,320 I'm not here to make a drug case. With that being said, 107 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:01,200 if I need to make drug cases in order to recover this girl one way 108 00:10:01,279 --> 00:10:09,840 or the other, I'll do so, Okay. So I've been the one 109 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:13,120 to look her father in the eye every day for the past six weeks and 110 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:18,919 tell her that or tell him that we don't know where his daughter is. 111 00:10:20,399 --> 00:10:24,320 And I'm not going to do that for much longer. All Right, I'm 112 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,840 going to give you another opportunity. He's never taken mess, never had any 113 00:10:28,879 --> 00:10:39,000 IV meths, and while kimberly insisted that she didn't know Keys to do any 114 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:45,120 drugs other than recreational marijuana, Monique Dahl was persistent in her claims that she 115 00:10:45,279 --> 00:10:50,279 knew for a fact that Keys used meth. It's a claim we've never been 116 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:56,399 able to verify in the files, but one I don't necessarily doubt because there 117 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:03,039 are at least three anchorage sightings involving Keys either buying or selling drugs, one 118 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:09,399 such sighting occurring in the parking lot across the street from common Grounds just weeks 119 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:16,000 before Samantha's abduction. All three sightings specify his exact truck, and two of 120 00:11:16,039 --> 00:11:24,360 the three were in locations Keys was known to go. The FBI later asks 121 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:31,039 kim about medications found in their Spur Lane house, specifically, four medications either 122 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:35,840 prescribed two Keys or found within his personal possessions. The first was an anti 123 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:41,399 viral medication that Kim couldn't identify, and she made a point to say that 124 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:46,440 it was strange that she'd never seen it before, mostly because she didn't know 125 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:52,919 Keys to go to a doctor in Alaska and she never received pharmaceutical samples in 126 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:58,519 her current job. The second was an antibiotic that Kim prescribed Keys after she 127 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:03,679 noticed to deep cut in his hand and became worried about an infection in his 128 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,960 tendon sheath. When she asked him how he got the cut, he said 129 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:13,080 that he cut it on baling wire. Samantha Koenig's remains were tied and attached 130 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:22,159 to anchors with baling wire, but this cut showed up years before Samantha was 131 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:28,320 murdered. The final two medications were antidepressants that Kim had prescribed to Keys over 132 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:33,559 the winters of twenty ten and twenty eleven. Kim described Keys as someone who 133 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:39,960 suffered from severe seasonal depression, and that during his last two winters he stopped 134 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:45,480 working, stopped socializing, and drank heavily. It got so bad that at 135 00:12:45,519 --> 00:12:48,480 one point she pulled a drink out of his hand and poured it on the 136 00:12:48,519 --> 00:12:52,399 ground, and that's when she told the FBI that in the January before his 137 00:12:52,519 --> 00:13:01,039 arrest, he threatened suicide. Here's what she said. He told me he 138 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:05,559 wanted to kill himself. I got really upset, and because I'm a medical 139 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,279 person, I knew if I called nine one one, all they would do 140 00:13:09,399 --> 00:13:13,120 is have the police come and take him to the er. They'd hold him 141 00:13:13,159 --> 00:13:18,159 overnight. He'd have a big bill and they wouldn't do anything about it. 142 00:13:18,519 --> 00:13:20,799 Because I've had patience, I've had to call on, so I didn't know 143 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:26,480 what to do. I just didn't know what to do. He'd been depressed. 144 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:30,200 I think a lot of his depression was that, you know, I 145 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:33,919 think he knew it was over, like there was no reconciliation. I think 146 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,639 he'd had a hope before that, and I think he'd, you know, 147 00:13:37,879 --> 00:13:43,200 put so much money and time into his business and just didn't want to keep 148 00:13:43,279 --> 00:13:46,039 living here because of the winters and stuff, and it's expensive and all that. 149 00:13:46,759 --> 00:13:50,600 I think he just didn't know where to go. I think he was 150 00:13:50,639 --> 00:13:54,679 a little disillusioned because he worked for a lot of people up on the hillside 151 00:13:54,759 --> 00:13:58,200 that had half million dollar houses and they would complain about how broke they were 152 00:13:58,519 --> 00:14:03,879 and things like that. He just said, I can't believe they say that 153 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:07,679 when there are starving people in the world. He told me he didn't have 154 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,600 any social support, or you know, I was kind of his only social 155 00:14:11,639 --> 00:14:16,759 support. He's really shy, and he had a couple good friends down in 156 00:14:16,799 --> 00:14:22,399 the Bay, but not so much here. It's hard, he's shy. 157 00:14:22,159 --> 00:14:26,399 It takes them a while to get to know people. So his friends were 158 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:37,440 just my friends. We're talking to some people who are a little concerned for 159 00:14:37,559 --> 00:14:43,279 him as well, reference his depression, and they've spoken of unexplained crying and 160 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:56,000 outbursts from him, and that brings us quite eerily into February of twenty twelve, 161 00:14:56,759 --> 00:15:00,600 because Kim said that when she arrived in New Orleans to me Keys and 162 00:15:00,639 --> 00:15:05,960 Sarah for the cruise, his demeanor had started to change. He was more 163 00:15:05,039 --> 00:15:11,879 upbeat, more himself. But then in the following days while visiting his family 164 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:16,840 in Texas, they reported that he was prone to having these unexplained emotional outbursts. 165 00:15:18,519 --> 00:15:24,080 But then again when he arrived back in Alaska, according to Kim, 166 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:28,840 he was happy and motivated and started booking jobs and planning for the future. 167 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:33,039 It was like a switch had been flipped. His behavior was night and day. 168 00:15:35,679 --> 00:15:39,799 And there are a handful of explanations that may be tied to these extreme 169 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:46,360 and rapid behavior changes. First off, I asked doctor Cunkle what he made 170 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:52,240 of this, and here's what he said. Many serial offenders are at least 171 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:58,440 partially or in some cases mainly, fantasy driven. They spend a lot of 172 00:15:58,519 --> 00:16:04,080 time not offending in practice, but during that time the fantasies endure and changed 173 00:16:04,159 --> 00:16:10,159 depending on what stimuli they are engaging. In addition to the fantasy is the 174 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:15,480 criminal skill building and preparation that must occur to sustain their offending. This is 175 00:16:15,559 --> 00:16:19,559 why many are so good at avoiding detection, because they are so invested in 176 00:16:19,639 --> 00:16:26,080 not just remaining free, but also preserving the fantasy. When an offender activates 177 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:33,320 the fantasy into action, they are left with uncontrollable circumstances that may not necessarily 178 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,320 fit into the template they have constructed. In Keyes's case, he said that 179 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:42,039 killing would amp him up, adding another layer to his pattern and needs. 180 00:16:42,559 --> 00:16:48,399 For example, I get the sense from his interviews that the Koenik case left 181 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:52,200 him wanting more. It seemed to fit many ideals for him. But he 182 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:57,519 also was working under time pressure as he went further with things and initially planned. 183 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:03,920 In this case, he underestimated her acquiescence and ended up deeper than he'd 184 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:08,440 planned. I'd be willing to bet that over the next several weeks while he 185 00:17:08,519 --> 00:17:14,759 was traveling that he was steeped in anxiety and fantasy waiting to get back to 186 00:17:14,799 --> 00:17:21,400 her. This would have noticeable effects on his behavior. It's very conceivable that 187 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:26,279 this happened with other kills, as each one brought its own novel experience and 188 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:33,079 fed into the fantasy and preservation cycle. Keys impresses me as the type of 189 00:17:33,079 --> 00:17:37,200 offender who could mask his fantasy world pretty well, but in instances like the 190 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:44,240 above, it would leak in. This is also state dependent on his satisfaction 191 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:48,799 stamina related to keeping up the double life facade. Looking at the pictures of 192 00:17:48,799 --> 00:17:55,680 the Alaska house offers a great window into his separation of selves. The pristine 193 00:17:55,799 --> 00:18:00,960 craftsmanship of the main living space as compared to the haphazard basement space provides a 194 00:18:02,039 --> 00:18:10,359 first hand view of his psychology, and these behavior changes also come up from 195 00:18:10,519 --> 00:18:15,160 Keys in his own FBI interviews. I was kind of out of control a 196 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:26,079 little bit since the stuff happened in Alaska was kind of not the way I 197 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,680 reacted to. The whole thing that happened in Alaska was a lot different than 198 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:40,319 normally. I just well, like after the Okay, after the Courier thing 199 00:18:40,559 --> 00:18:56,759 in Vermont, it kind of calms me out for a while, and I 200 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,759 just went back to Alaska and just work, you know, like for six 201 00:18:59,799 --> 00:19:06,559 months some everything business as usual. But after the stuff in Alaska, I 202 00:19:06,599 --> 00:19:18,119 couldn't couldn't concentrate anymore on anything but about that sort of thing. And this 203 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:23,640 is clearly present in the days he spent trolling Texas looking for someone to kill, 204 00:19:25,039 --> 00:19:30,920 and his subsequent arson and bank robbery there, but those were after both 205 00:19:30,039 --> 00:19:37,839 the cruise and the outbursts with his family. Between Samantha and his upbeat personality 206 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:42,119 on the cruise was Lafayette, Louisiana. And that brings us to one of 207 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:56,480 the many lies we learned that Keys told Kim and his family True crime bullshit 208 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,480 is sponsored by Betterhelp. What is the the first thing you would do if 209 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:04,200 you had an extra hour in your day. A lot of us spend our 210 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:08,240 lives wishing we had more time. See I'm not the only one, but 211 00:20:08,319 --> 00:20:11,880 the question is time for what? If time was unlimited, how would you 212 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:17,839 use it? Probably sleeping and then feeling bad about not using that time to 213 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:22,000 work. The best way to squeeze that special thing into your schedule is to 214 00:20:22,039 --> 00:20:26,400 know what's important to you and make it a priority. And therapy can help 215 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:30,039 you find what matters so you can do more of it. All jokes aside. 216 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:34,799 My therapist Jane has totally helped me prioritize my time. More than that, 217 00:20:36,079 --> 00:20:40,359 she made me realize I truly wasn't taking enough time for myself. Time 218 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:45,240 that didn't revolve around work or TV or even friends, just me time. 219 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:49,960 Because recovering and relaxing are not the same thing. If you're thinking about starting 220 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:55,920 therapy, I suggest giving Better Help a try. It's entirely online, it's 221 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,400 designed to be convenient, flexible, and it's suited to your schedule. And 222 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:03,400 much like finding the right therapist, takes time, so Better Help allows you 223 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:07,359 to change your therapist at any time. Learn to make time for what makes 224 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:12,839 you happy with Better Help. Is it betterhelp dot com slash tcb today to 225 00:21:12,839 --> 00:21:18,200 get ten percent off your first month. That's Better Help h e LP dot 226 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:30,119 com slash tcp keyes told the FBI several times that the great thing about dating 227 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:37,200 Kimberly was that she was, in his words, self contained. She didn't 228 00:21:37,279 --> 00:21:41,960 ask a lot of questions or get too involved with his personal life, and 229 00:21:41,039 --> 00:21:45,400 even she admitted that she'd only met his mother once and couldn't even name most 230 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:49,880 of his siblings. She told the FBI that it wasn't until she stopped working 231 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:55,599 as a traveling nurse and began spending more than just weekends with Keys that she 232 00:21:55,720 --> 00:22:00,839 realized they weren't compatible. They'd lived very separate lives until shortly before their breakup, 233 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,039 so Keyes knew that he could lie to her, which he did. 234 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,920 He told Kim that he wanted to fly out to Texas a week before the 235 00:22:11,039 --> 00:22:15,160 crew so that he could spend time with his family. But he told his 236 00:22:15,279 --> 00:22:22,319 family that he landed in Texas and then drove directly to New Orleans. And 237 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:29,720 we know that neither story is true because he spent those three days in Lafayette, 238 00:22:29,799 --> 00:22:34,640 Louisiana, and it turns out not a single person knew he was even 239 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:41,799 there, except for his ten year old daughter, And in those exact three 240 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:48,039 days, Christina believes that she was chased by him in a cemetery Invider, 241 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:56,119 Texas and Mark Julian Oldberry later disappeared from a campground several miles away Invidor, 242 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:03,599 Texas. Here's keyes discussing that very trip, specifically the Glen Rose, Texas 243 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:10,400 cemetery map that they found on his phone. So there was no significance to 244 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,200 a cemetery like there was to a church like you had talked about before. 245 00:23:14,519 --> 00:23:19,799 Not really, I mean I like cemeteries. I don't know beyond that, 246 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:26,079 it's not really The churches obviously had to do with the whole religious piece, 247 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,319 but that cemeteries, there was none of that for you. It was just 248 00:23:30,759 --> 00:23:36,559 convenience, remoteness. You like them, You're that kind of thing. Yeah, 249 00:23:37,839 --> 00:23:44,119 like them? Why you liked cemeteries? Do you think? I don't 250 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:57,839 know. I just always have morbid fascination cemeteries. It's a lot easier to 251 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:03,960 explain your presence there too, if someone happens to show up, so you'd 252 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:08,279 find a stone of someone to pretend like you were there to visit. Yeah, 253 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:21,079 I mean easier to explain than something. So you're always thinking of that, 254 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:26,799 You're always thinking of your what you would say if you were ask about 255 00:24:26,799 --> 00:24:37,319 your presence. Yeah, it doesn't always work, so obviously you have to 256 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,119 have a backup plan. But at least you know like s like I say 257 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:48,200 cemetery, it's cemetery, campground, something like that. Public places. It's 258 00:24:49,519 --> 00:25:00,119 easier to explain than private property. Doctor Cuncle sent a follow up text regarding 259 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:07,160 these behavioral patterns. It says separation and then reunion with his newly acquired love 260 00:25:07,759 --> 00:25:17,079 normal psychological principles applied in an extremely abnormal manner. So one could theorize that 261 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:22,240 after several weeks of stalking Samantha, Koenig Keys abducted her, but because of 262 00:25:22,319 --> 00:25:26,920 time and physical limitations, this subduction, rape, and murder fail to live 263 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,519 up to his fantasy, and, according to Keyes himself, his urges aren't 264 00:25:30,759 --> 00:25:38,359 satiated, so hypothetically he kills again to sustain a temporary high. He sees 265 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:44,079 kimberly for the first time since before abducting Samantha, and he feels good. 266 00:25:44,799 --> 00:25:49,240 He's happy the urge is gone, but then after several days, his depression 267 00:25:49,319 --> 00:25:55,279 returns. He's triggered by being around his family, by a general lack of 268 00:25:55,319 --> 00:26:00,160 control. He has regrets about how the Samantha situation played out. Kim is 269 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:07,119 gone again, and the facade he's created is once again crumbling, so he 270 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:18,079 kills again and then returns to Alaska and Samantha Koenig. Keys's return to Alaska 271 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:25,480 and Samantha brings up another lie that Keys told Kimberly, one that was new 272 00:26:25,559 --> 00:26:30,559 to us. In a long conversation about what kind of technology Keys had access 273 00:26:30,599 --> 00:26:37,319 to, including the household desktop and several of Kim's cameras, the FBI asked 274 00:26:37,319 --> 00:26:42,319 about Kimberly's work laptop. They asked her if it was okay for Keys to 275 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:47,359 use the laptop, and she said that he never did, but if he 276 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:51,720 asked, she would have given him permission. They asked if it was password 277 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:56,480 protected, and she says yes, not as far as she knew, Keys 278 00:26:56,519 --> 00:27:03,720 didn't have the password. Did you ever see this this flare? Have you 279 00:27:03,759 --> 00:27:07,039 ever seen that picture before? Would it surprised you if I told you that 280 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:11,359 we took that off of your laptop? Okay? Have you ever downloaded this 281 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:18,079 photo? It's taken this photo? After they show her the photo, which 282 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:22,039 we believe, based on context clues, is a photo of Samantha Konig, 283 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:27,480 she says no, never, no, Then they ask if it would surprise 284 00:27:27,599 --> 00:27:32,400 her if they told her that the photo was taken from her work laptop, 285 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:37,079 she sounds absolutely shocked. In fact, for a woman who up until this 286 00:27:37,279 --> 00:27:45,160 point seemed certain that Keys was not remotely capable of hurting Samantha Konig, it 287 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:49,000 seems that this might be the exact moment or she starts to change her mind. 288 00:27:49,799 --> 00:27:56,240 She says, yes, it surprises me a lot. And then they 289 00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:03,440 tell her that there are more more photos of other women taken from her work 290 00:28:03,519 --> 00:28:10,039 laptop. All of the computers aren't then being processed at the department, but 291 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:15,880 there are twelve, thirteen, fourteen other photos that are coming. They're not 292 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,359 available right now. Can we get together again. I'd like to show you 293 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,559 these photos and see if you recognize them, if you took the photos, 294 00:28:22,599 --> 00:28:26,880 if you recognize them, or if you've never seen them before. About fifteen 295 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,079 or sixteen, they're going to be photos of females. There are going to 296 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:37,319 be similar to this. The more the FBI and Kim spoke, the more 297 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:41,960 it became clear that Keyes was using Kim and lying to Kim in ways that 298 00:28:42,039 --> 00:28:48,920 could have implicated her in his crimes. Another example of this is phishing. 299 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:56,799 Keyes added Kimberly's name to multiple phishing licenses that he acquired between two thousand and 300 00:28:56,839 --> 00:29:03,400 six and his arrest phishing licenses from all over the place Utah, Wyoming, 301 00:29:03,599 --> 00:29:07,440 Washington, Juno, the keen Eye Peninsula. But when the FBI asked cam 302 00:29:07,519 --> 00:29:15,000 about going fishing with keys, she said a few things. One that other 303 00:29:15,039 --> 00:29:22,160 than dip netting, she hadn't been fishing with keys in years. Two that 304 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:27,079 she went ice fishing with him just once, interestingly at a location he really 305 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:33,119 liked near Fairbanks, where they once rented a cabin for a long weekend many 306 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:38,799 years ago. And three that she can't recall standard fishing with him since they 307 00:29:38,799 --> 00:29:44,880 were living in Washington state, and that even then it was very rare. 308 00:29:45,839 --> 00:29:51,599 And this is supported by multiple interviews with Kim's close friends, all of them 309 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:59,759 stating and sometimes joking that Kimberly was not even remotely an outdoorsy girl. We 310 00:29:59,839 --> 00:30:03,559 know that Keyes went dip netting on the Keenai Peninsula, so those would likely 311 00:30:03,599 --> 00:30:10,759 be the only legitimate fishing licenses that Kimberly appears on, which brings into question 312 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:17,200 all of them, but most specifically the July two thousand and eight fishing licenses. 313 00:30:18,559 --> 00:30:22,720 As you may recall, Keyes and Kimberly had two separate fishing licenses issued 314 00:30:22,759 --> 00:30:30,119 for the same two days into very different states. They had illegal licenses issued 315 00:30:30,119 --> 00:30:34,720 for the Keeni Peninsula over the weekend of July fourth, but they also had 316 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:41,960 a Wyoming fishing license issued that very same weekend. We know that Kimberly was 317 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:45,799 working in Rock Springs, Wyoming at the time, and travel records indicate that 318 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,920 Keyes did fly in to visit her a week after she arrived, that he 319 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:56,160 stayed July third through the seventh. So if Kimberly hadn't been fishing with Keyes 320 00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:02,559 since the very latest two thousand and six, what was Keyes doing alone in 321 00:31:02,599 --> 00:31:07,359 the Wyoming woods and why would he need to lie and say that Kimberly was 322 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:18,400 with him. The idea of Keyes using Kimberly as an unknowing alibi or using 323 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:23,039 her to cover his tracks it propelled us to start digging further into Kimberly's travel 324 00:31:23,079 --> 00:31:30,759 records, and I stumbled across another oddity that lined up with Keys possibly using 325 00:31:30,799 --> 00:31:36,559 her as a cover. On January eleventh of twenty ten, Kimberly flew to 326 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:41,319 Conquered, California for a six week work trip in Martinez Unfortunately, we don't 327 00:31:41,319 --> 00:31:45,960 have any flight records for this trip, but we do have notations in her 328 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:51,839 calendar and the rental car receipts. This is probably because the flight most likely 329 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:56,440 would have been private, considering the tiny airport that she appears to have flown 330 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:02,519 into. Upon her arrival there, she rented two cars from the same location 331 00:32:04,039 --> 00:32:08,079 on the same date, both under her name. One was a Toyota Corolla, 332 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:13,480 which was returned on February twenty fifth, the day that Kim's work trip 333 00:32:13,599 --> 00:32:17,039 ended, with just two hundred ninety one miles on it, an average of 334 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:22,319 seven miles per day, which would have been more than adequate to get her 335 00:32:22,359 --> 00:32:27,559 to and from her hotel and the hospital she was training at. The second 336 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:32,039 car was a Ford Focus, which was returned that same day to an unknown 337 00:32:32,079 --> 00:32:39,599 location with four hundred one miles on it. So we started digging into where 338 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:45,079 someone could get from Conquered California and either four hundred one miles total or two 339 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:52,559 hundred miles round trip in a single day, and whether it was even possible 340 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:58,200 that Keys could be the driver of that second car. We started with what 341 00:32:58,319 --> 00:33:02,400 we knew and now know. Keys got severe seasonal depression in the winter and 342 00:33:02,599 --> 00:33:07,640 generally stopped working, so it would stand to reason that he'd want to get 343 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:12,559 out of town. This was also the week of Keyes's birthday, so again 344 00:33:12,839 --> 00:33:16,839 it stands to reason that he'd want to get out of Alaska, and we 345 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:22,880 can't place Keys anywhere at the time. On Christmas Day of two thousand nine, 346 00:33:22,559 --> 00:33:29,519 he flew from Orlando to Anchorage and then nothing pops up again until February 347 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:35,759 nineteenth, when he does a construction job back in Anchorage. As we continued 348 00:33:35,799 --> 00:33:40,359 digging, Kim Kay found something even more interesting. One of Israel's brothers was 349 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:45,200 in California that same week while he was on a road trip visiting family. 350 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:51,519 The brother left Maine on December twenty third and drove out to visit Heidi in 351 00:33:51,599 --> 00:33:55,400 Harlan, Indiana for Christmas. From there, he headed toward Oregon to visit 352 00:33:55,440 --> 00:34:00,440 his sister and a girl friend. It appears he got there in mid January, 353 00:34:01,799 --> 00:34:06,920 but on January eighth, before he arrived in Oregon, he said that 354 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:12,920 he was visiting his aunt in California. Now, the Keys boys had two 355 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,800 different aunts in California, one in Forest Hill, which is outside of Sacramento 356 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:24,239 in northern California, and one in Orange County in southern California, and it's 357 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:30,920 unclear which aunt Keys's brother was visiting, but several things stand out. First 358 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:37,079 off, he seems closer to his aunt in northern California, but heavy emphasis 359 00:34:37,119 --> 00:34:44,079 on seams. Second, throughout his road trip, he discusses it in singular 360 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:50,280 first person, I am going here, I am doing this, But after 361 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,960 he leaves his aunt's house to head north to Oregon, he starts discussing the 362 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:59,800 trip in plural first person. We might have time to stop by, duffer. 363 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:04,400 We want to come see you in Callville. So it seems likely that 364 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:09,079 he picked up someone while at his aunts, and perhaps most telling, the 365 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:17,239 Enterprise car rental in Conquered California is exactly four hundred miles from the Enterprise car 366 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:24,239 rental closest to his aunt's house in southern California, so it seems more likely 367 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:30,280 than not that the second car was for Keys. Kim had a work trip 368 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:34,480 and flight to California at a time when Keys wasn't working, was suffering from 369 00:35:34,559 --> 00:35:38,840 seasonal depression, and his brother was going to be in California. Plus it's 370 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:44,199 his birthday and Sarah is still living with Tammy at the time. So there's 371 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:49,480 a few options here. Keys drives to southern California, then road trips with 372 00:35:49,519 --> 00:35:53,920 his brother to Oregon, and from there goes god knows where. Or he 373 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:59,480 drives to Forest Hill, then puts an additional three hundred miles on his rental 374 00:35:59,519 --> 00:36:05,440 car before disappearing. Or he drives to Forest Hill, spends at max an 375 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,280 hour and a half with his family, puts an additional two hundred miles on 376 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:13,800 his rental car, then returns to Martinez where Kim is, all in a 377 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:19,599 single day. Or he drives to any number of airports within four hundred miles 378 00:36:19,599 --> 00:36:25,760 of conquered California, of which there are many, But it's the first option 379 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:31,639 that seems the most likely. And from Oregon, Keys could have rented a 380 00:36:31,639 --> 00:36:37,320 car or hopped on a flight and been almost anywhere for a month before he 381 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:44,159 started working again and kimberly returned to Anchorage. And you may recall we have 382 00:36:44,199 --> 00:36:51,760 a sighting placing Keys in Minneapolis alone at a Vikings game on January seventeenth, 383 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:58,480 and two days later Eric Michael Peterson disappeared, a case will be circling back 384 00:36:58,519 --> 00:37:14,559 to later this season. The mysterious disappearance of Maura Murray is a story that's 385 00:37:14,599 --> 00:37:19,400 been told hundreds of times by strangers. But absent in the story you've heard 386 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:23,599 are the voices of those who knew Maura. Those closest to the investigation not 387 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:29,079 anymore. I'm her sister, Julie, and from media pressure. This is 388 00:37:29,119 --> 00:37:32,920 the untold story of Maura Murray. Join me as I cut out the noise 389 00:37:34,079 --> 00:37:38,480 and reveal who Maara really was with exclusive interviews Freddi, your first podcast, 390 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:43,679 first ever. There's a reason that you're one of the only people I responded 391 00:37:43,679 --> 00:37:47,360 to peek into the investigation efforts. The target was gone, would the target 392 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:52,159 go? I couldn't believe that this is an investigation? Are you kidding me? 393 00:37:52,639 --> 00:37:55,880 And explore the impact on those left behind. I shouldn't be afraid, 394 00:37:57,159 --> 00:38:01,719 but at this point I am subscribe to media pressure wherever you listen to podcasts. 395 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:13,320 Like I said earlier on the phone, I had a detective go out 396 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:15,920 and talk to him. He provided us a couple of names and people that 397 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:23,119 that no Keys and basically I want to ask you about him Coaster Keys Israel. 398 00:38:24,039 --> 00:38:28,760 How do you know it? I've probably known Izzy for about five years, 399 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:36,719 five six years peripheral. He's uh was girlfriend a boyfriend, and we 400 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:38,679 kind of run in the same circles, so quite off, we'd see them 401 00:38:38,679 --> 00:38:43,639 at Thanksgiving or you know, parties in the summer, or if they had 402 00:38:43,639 --> 00:38:46,480 did a road recently. He comes every year for that. Okay, he 403 00:38:46,519 --> 00:38:52,840 has done some work for us at our house also, And when you guys 404 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:54,960 are doing stuff prior to all this was is he doing some of the stuff 405 00:38:55,039 --> 00:39:00,440 or was he completely separate or he's a pretty reserved guy. Yeah, that's 406 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:01,000 why it's kind of like, I mean, I've known him for a long 407 00:39:01,039 --> 00:39:04,679 time, but even there, it's a separation when it's your friend's boyfriend for 408 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,000 starters, Yeah, and for a second when he's kind of just a reserved 409 00:39:07,079 --> 00:39:12,519 guy. But yeah, I mean he he came to stuff. You know, 410 00:39:12,599 --> 00:39:16,119 we I have a Halloween party here every year, and I was pretty 411 00:39:16,119 --> 00:39:19,639 sure it came by it became one a woman. No, he didn't come 412 00:39:19,639 --> 00:39:22,920 to the other one, but sure when he come to barbecues, you know, 413 00:39:23,039 --> 00:39:30,679 whatever, friend's wedding, and so now I'm pretty sure. Now we've 414 00:39:30,679 --> 00:39:36,559 got that. You called him on the nineteenth or the eighteenth, or nineteenth. 415 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:42,519 On the nineteenth, at one twenty one in the afternoon, February nineteenth. 416 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:46,719 Okay, I attempted to call him last year several times to do another 417 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:52,480 project for winter, project in my Callins Way, to do some ramp in 418 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:57,679 the garage on where Collins Oh Collin's Way. Is that a rental of yours 419 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:01,159 or something? Yeah, that's another prop What did you have? And then, 420 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:07,159 uh, is anybody living there right now? Yeah? Okay, but 421 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,320 when he did this work, it's vacant. Nothing. At that time it 422 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:15,480 was vac but now it's not not. Yeah, somebody's occupying it right now. 423 00:40:15,519 --> 00:40:19,840 So I attempted to call him to do, uh, another project for 424 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:24,559 winter, and then he's not returning my phone call. So when do you 425 00:40:24,599 --> 00:40:30,000 think you tried to call him last last year? I think around around the 426 00:40:30,119 --> 00:40:34,079 November and December. He did, you know, the windows over there. 427 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,159 He did some other work over there, like a year something ago. He 428 00:40:37,199 --> 00:40:40,199 did the floors on this house. This done. Wanted to have a const 429 00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:50,239 thing. Disagress, Great, it's awesome. Well that's what we hear from 430 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:52,360 everybody. What's your impression of him after you saw this in the place? 431 00:40:52,599 --> 00:40:55,599 What I mean, what was your first instinct when you saw this in the 432 00:40:55,679 --> 00:41:04,320 news he was arrested in relation to this person. Get that what dona come? 433 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:14,599 And since since that time has there been anything that's kind of popped out 434 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:22,159 at odd Kirk or or weird Kirk were like, I think she just felt 435 00:41:22,199 --> 00:41:25,760 bad. They didn't know anybody, didn't know where to go. I mean, 436 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,199 they just split up as far as I know, and like November December, 437 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:35,800 even though I'm not really sure. Yeah, and I know that broke 438 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,000 up. And I think he was probably low on cash is what I heard 439 00:41:39,039 --> 00:41:43,559 too, and just had nowhere else to go, so she like wouldn't down 440 00:41:43,559 --> 00:41:52,719 in the basement. In addition to the Kimberly interviews, the APD files came 441 00:41:52,840 --> 00:42:00,840 with dozens of audio interviews, including many interviews with Keysa's clients and acquaintances friends 442 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:05,400 of Kim, and even those interviews have been of great value to us. 443 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,159 We've been able to fill in the timeline more, placing Keys at specific job 444 00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:15,119 sites on specific days, placing Keys at various friend gatherings, Christmas parties, 445 00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:20,679 Thanksgiving dinners, anchorage events, and art walks, and we've been able to 446 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:24,119 get a better view of his social and private life, views not afforded by 447 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:32,360 documentation or Keys's questionable answers to the FBI's often myopic questions. One great example 448 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:37,159 of this is an interview with one of Keys's clients. The one interaction that 449 00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:45,639 I had more than then, I'd like to have had now. Because we 450 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:50,480 were trying to sell the property and doing all this stuff. There was a 451 00:42:50,519 --> 00:42:52,639 couple of things I wanted just done right away. So on one occasion, 452 00:42:52,679 --> 00:42:58,000 I think I went to pick him up and took him to Lowe's and took 453 00:42:58,079 --> 00:43:00,760 him back to his turn again place and then be there and we paid him 454 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:05,679 a check there. That's the only interaction I had with him outside of the 455 00:43:06,559 --> 00:43:09,440 sh You know where he lived, so I knew where that house was. 456 00:43:10,199 --> 00:43:14,480 We we were both uh talking to him. Actually, I talked to my 457 00:43:14,599 --> 00:43:16,880 watch about this recently, That's why it was fresh in my mind. And 458 00:43:17,039 --> 00:43:20,719 she goes, yeah, wasn't he engaged? So he had told us during 459 00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,400 that time he was engaged in that cause I remember he was constructing the whole 460 00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:28,239 front of the house remo house, Okay, And he goes, I'm remodeling 461 00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:32,960 it for my fiance. Kay. At that time, it was kind of 462 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,800 a new place, so I scoped the outside. I never went in. 463 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:42,679 It was in an upstairs the front was being completely remodeled. Yeah, and 464 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,519 when I came in, he came from like the back front he had. 465 00:43:46,599 --> 00:43:52,039 I wanna see three vehicles there? The one we were used to was a 466 00:43:52,119 --> 00:43:54,440 van? Or used to a van? Kay? Uh? Or that we 467 00:43:54,519 --> 00:43:58,800 had seen? What kind of avan? Do you remember a panel? When 468 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:07,519 white van? No hand noles beat up? Older? Was it windows? 469 00:44:08,559 --> 00:44:15,840 It was kind of like a construction Yeah, so it was older, older 470 00:44:15,559 --> 00:44:22,840 eighties model. Probably sorry to tell on vans where when they were from. 471 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:27,000 But he had, uh a truck? Okay? Was it this truck? 472 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:38,239 You may have seen it in the news. Mm. No, I don't 473 00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:42,320 think it was this new of a truck. In fact, he sold it. 474 00:44:45,079 --> 00:44:47,199 And I say that because now that I see this, I remember talking 475 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:52,159 about, uh the truck and and he goes, yeah, I gotta get 476 00:44:52,199 --> 00:44:58,599 rid of it. According to this guy, Keys had and frequently used. 477 00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:01,079 In fact, it it's the only car he ever saw Keys work out of, 478 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:07,400 a white cargo van. We've seen hide nor hair of this in the 479 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:13,599 files, but this guy says he saw Keys in it multiple times. Based 480 00:45:13,679 --> 00:45:17,760 on the timeline and other interviews, it seems likely that Keys used this mystery 481 00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:22,239 van between his old Ford breaking down and his purchase of the Chevy. But 482 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:29,599 the important takeaway here is that there are critical details that documentation just can't present 483 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:38,079 us. But the interview that shocked me the most was not one with one 484 00:45:38,119 --> 00:45:44,559 of Key's clients or Kimberly's friends. It was an interview with an inmate at 485 00:45:44,599 --> 00:45:52,119 an Anchorage jail. This also important. He see one three two were at 486 00:45:52,119 --> 00:45:59,119 Anchorage jail. It's what March twenty ninth, twenty twelve, and it's eleven 487 00:45:59,199 --> 00:46:04,679 twenty one by my phone, Lser Soda is present and we've got prisoner. 488 00:46:05,639 --> 00:46:08,400 You're not a suspect in anything, Like I told you before. You know 489 00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:10,639 what your rights are. I mean, I'm not reading them because I'm not 490 00:46:10,679 --> 00:46:14,079 gonna writch. I'm not gonna do anything. I've just got some questions for 491 00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:19,440 you. Tell me. You know that person right there? I see him 492 00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:22,639 wrong? Why does he have your phone? In his phone? Is a 493 00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:29,920 contact? He's got your name and it says help good YEP. I don't 494 00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:34,840 know. He's got a construction company called Keys Construction Company. You've been working 495 00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:39,599 with him? Israel Keys? Is he is what he goes by. I 496 00:46:39,679 --> 00:46:44,199 think I worked for him for I don't know where what. Well, I'm 497 00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,239 just trying to find out when what you did for him. You don't know 498 00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:52,280 when you work for him, but you think you may have. That's kind 499 00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:58,639 of vague. What do you know about it? Not much? When did 500 00:46:58,679 --> 00:47:04,119 you work for him? Uh? I can't remember what did you do for 501 00:47:04,199 --> 00:47:08,519 him? Uh? I don't know if it was him. I got a 502 00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:15,519 painting for him or something, or I don't know when or where did you 503 00:47:15,599 --> 00:47:23,679 paint for man? I'm not really sure whatever it was, what can you 504 00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:30,400 remember? You know who he is? We look at him again? No, 505 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:37,119 I don't know. A dam is Israel Keys. Yeah, he's the 506 00:47:37,159 --> 00:47:39,400 owner of Keys Construction and that's his truck and he's had that for a long 507 00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:45,760 time. Okay, you must have murder him. Well, he's a suspect 508 00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:49,320 and he's under arrest related to Samantha Kone. You know who that is? 509 00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:55,400 The missing person, the missing coffee briest or kidnapped. Yeah, oh so 510 00:47:55,480 --> 00:48:00,159 it's real serious. You see while we're talking to you. Yeah, your 511 00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:04,320 phone number was in his contact list. I don't know why it would be. 512 00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:12,599 He's got you listed. Ask and it says help. Wow, I 513 00:48:12,639 --> 00:48:15,199 don't know. So you see what I'm talking to you because I was going 514 00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:19,360 to work for him. That could be. That's why I'm here talking to 515 00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:27,400 you. So he's the one that took that woman. Un you know anything 516 00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:32,000 about that? No, I don't heard any rumors about it. So when 517 00:48:32,039 --> 00:48:38,079 do you think you worked for is he? Uh? While back? How 518 00:48:38,199 --> 00:48:42,679 long is it? While? I don't know, I've been, I just 519 00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:45,920 got I've been, I'm doing time. I guess this you did to do 520 00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:58,559 m I know it was him on ripport or I don't know. Where were 521 00:48:58,639 --> 00:49:02,199 you during the months of February March before you got arrested. Did you work 522 00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:07,199 for him anytime in there? Were in March? Yep? This year we're 523 00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:14,360 in March right now. You got arrested March sixteenth. Also in shelter verbwork 524 00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:22,320 February you're in a shelter, brother, Francis you ever came back picked you 525 00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:31,840 have to do work there? Nope. We have long suspected, through countless 526 00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:38,000 sightings and tips, that Keys was frequenting homeless shelters and soup kitchens. People 527 00:49:38,079 --> 00:49:43,639 reported sightings to the FBI placing him at shelters in Washington, New York, 528 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:49,559 California, Arizona, Massachusetts, and so on. Most notably in Johnstown, 529 00:49:49,639 --> 00:49:53,880 New York, where multiple people saw him multiple times over a five month period, 530 00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:59,559 right around the time that Kelly Sue Acroneck disappeared from that same town. 531 00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:07,039 And while we can't be certain how Keyes met this man because infuriatingly throughout the 532 00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:12,480 eight minute interview no one ever asks him, it is extremely interesting that he 533 00:50:12,639 --> 00:50:17,760 was living in a homeless shelter when he believes he met Keys. In addition 534 00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:22,440 to that, the interview brings up a few other questions We've long had. 535 00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:30,119 One at what level was Keys working with other people? We know through client 536 00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:35,199 interviews that he on occasion hired workers to help him with bigger jobs. But 537 00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:39,960 we've also recently come across at least two people who claim Israel Keys hired them 538 00:50:40,039 --> 00:50:47,719 to perform work for him entirely alone, which means that while Key's construction was 539 00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:54,760 working in Anchorage, Alaska, Israel Keys could be somewhere else entirely. And 540 00:50:55,239 --> 00:51:00,320 two, is it possible that Keys would give his credit cards to helpers or 541 00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:10,519 subcontractors to charge for job materials, Because if so, financial records cannot exclusively 542 00:51:10,639 --> 00:51:17,800 be used to place Keys in Alaska or to rule him out of crimes that 543 00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:29,800 occurred in the lower forty eight. It's very easy to get caught up in 544 00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:32,920 the investigation, in the files, in the facts, in the need for 545 00:51:34,119 --> 00:51:39,159 answers, and just as easy to forget the reality, the humanity, the 546 00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:44,920 nuance, the people and their stories, and the stakes we all have or 547 00:51:45,079 --> 00:51:50,199 lack in all of this. When it comes to crime and murder and horrendous 548 00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:54,480 acts from people. It's easy to deny empathy or humanity. It's easy to 549 00:51:54,599 --> 00:52:00,480 live in the black and white and use it to propel our voices and judgments 550 00:52:00,639 --> 00:52:07,360 and actions and empathy. But when we do that, we give keys more 551 00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:14,119 power, and we strip power from ourselves and from people like Kimberly and Sarah 552 00:52:14,679 --> 00:52:21,880 and Tammy and his family, from the lives they actually lived, from the 553 00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:29,119 traumas they actually experienced, from all the realities that can't be documented in FBI 554 00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:37,480 files, and from our own ethics and morals. The Kimberly interviews have so 555 00:52:37,679 --> 00:52:42,880 much value, but they are also some of the worst moments of her life. 556 00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:47,599 It's very easy to get caught up in the value of the documentation and 557 00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:53,639 overlook or underestimate the value of her experience, her life, her privacy, 558 00:52:54,400 --> 00:53:01,760 her right to heal from this, the views have to expand the greater goals, 559 00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:07,320 or else the greater goals will be entirely lost. Because the stakes in 560 00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:21,239 all of this are incredibly high, but they don't belong to us. Most 561 00:53:21,599 --> 00:53:35,360 that don't have the luxury of giving. If you're talking giving up, well 562 00:53:35,519 --> 00:53:49,079 that's another thing. It's the sun it's gonna set. This isn't a quantunsh 563 00:53:55,079 --> 00:54:10,159 I don't even need to and just want the view. That's it. Found 564 00:54:10,199 --> 00:54:22,760 a place sat on the plane with some stays to fall apart, with a 565 00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:43,840 lot fad out and your lass a guest you can do your lass guest out 566 00:54:44,239 --> 00:55:38,440 about to give you told me, let's see the stitch, such says. 567 00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:53,519 This episode was written, researched, edited, and produced by me Josh Hallmark, 568 00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:58,840 with additional research by Shana Lensky, Michelle Tooker, Jordan Taylor, and 569 00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:04,079 Kim Kay. This episode was made possible by the following Patreon producers Amelia Hancock, 570 00:56:04,119 --> 00:56:07,280 Amy Basel and el Ash Fish, Benjamin Choppathon Casey Jensen, Richardson, 571 00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:10,880 Drew Vipond, Hallie Reed, Jessica Ally, Hodsick, Jillian Natale, Kathleen 572 00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:15,519 Studter, Kendall c kimberly Ka, Lanna, Laura and f Lindsay Curtis, 573 00:56:15,599 --> 00:56:19,440 Lindsay Lucifer, Lindley, Tuscoffman, Nolas Bullacus, Nicol and Dennis Henry, 574 00:56:19,639 --> 00:56:22,920 Sarah King, s C. Shelley Brewer, Sherry De, Tuesday Woodworth, 575 00:56:22,039 --> 00:56:25,400 Vickey, Russell, zach Ignottowitz, Warren, Beth McNally, John Comrie, 576 00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:30,119 Jordan Taylor, Carly McNutt, Sarah C, SHAWNA Harden, and Lydia Fiedler. 577 00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:34,960 Thank you to Studio Both, Anne's newest Patreon supporter, Tom G, 578 00:56:35,199 --> 00:56:38,360 Marie, Christina G, Meg H William E. S Junior, Megan R, 579 00:56:38,519 --> 00:56:42,880 Christina W, Bonnie C, Jennifer I, Meghan M, Sam, 580 00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:46,360 Ali b aster K, Colin A, Teresa and Chris S. To support 581 00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:52,079 the investigation, go to Patreon dot com slash Studio both And. This episode 582 00:56:52,159 --> 00:56:58,199 included music by William Hellfire, Radical Face, Sarage, Chimisanov, Sarah Esther, 583 00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:02,039 Abramy Hive, Kyle Preston, and part Helium, with featured music by 584 00:57:02,079 --> 00:58:13,559 the New Pornographers, Suss Scouts, Scouts Skins