This is a studio both and production. Join me in some of the researchers
tonight Thursday, March twenty first after the show at nine pm Eastern on YouTube.
For live stream discussion about the episode, go to the show notes for
a link to the live stream. The only thing we want to know.
We're worried about her, okay, and we're sorry we're beating you up all
right, but you're our best pulp right now of getting to the bottom of
this. And like we said, we've been doing this for six weeks.
Great, well, thank you for coming in today. We really appreciate you
being here. And I know that you've been through a lot and there's a
lot going on that you probably have questions about, and we'll try to help
where we can. And he just wants to give you the information your read
and be in and out as soon as we understand that. We uh,
just so you know, you're at the US Attorney's office and this is uh,
we're we're conducting a federal investigation as well. I know you've spoken with
the Anguish Police Department and we've heard some of that, but not all of
it. So forgive us if some of the things we ask are the same.
It's just because we're trying to use things together ourselves. Do you have
any questions for us before we kind of just well, I've been just trying
to make sure we're not talking about her being a target in any way or
suspect on it anyway. Oh, you're you're not currently a target of this
investigation, which means that we don't think you've committed a crime related to what
mister keys Uh is charged with now, which is access device fraud. You
should also know that he's being investigated and we have evidence showing that he's involved
in the abduction of Uh Samantha Coneing, which I'm sure you've heard on the
news they you know, Yeah, Okay, So I mean doesn't make it
super clear. Sure she sh She's obviously can because they've been right known each
other for a long time and I've been under the depression. He didn't have
anything to do with it. Because of her personal knowledge, She's plenty willing
to give any information that might help. Okay, But it's not a situation
where she's going to be you know, she's gonna be confronted us though she
had done something wrong on or that she's she hasn't measured up. We're not
We're not treating you that way. We're not looking at you that way.
And let me just explained that the whole reason you got served with the grand
jury's poenis, you know, we weren't sure. We really, you know,
wanted to make sure that you wanted to you know, we had an
opportunity to ask you questions, but you know, we didn't know what your
frame of mind mold is. A lot of this wasn't explained to us.
We hadn't listened to the interviews. We've listened to the interviews. Now,
you know, as long as you're cooperat about you know, at least at
this point, we don't see the need to drag you in front of the
grand jury. I mean that that's not the way we operate. We simply
just want to get the information out there. This is true crime bullshit.
I'm your host, Josh Hollmark, and this is a serialized story of Israel
Keys. In the very first episode of this podcast, over five years ago,
I asked what seemed at the time to be a fair and simple question,
should we have empathy for serial killers? That single question became incredibly polarizing
and garnered a significant amount of hate toward me, and all these years later,
it's a question I still don't have an answer for, although at times
I have found myself empathizing with Israel Keys, an act that doesn't negate what
a terrible person I think he was. It doesn't excuse his actions, his
duplicity, his heartlessness. Characterizing someone as evil or as a monster gives them
a lot of power. It also takes away a lot of your own power.
If you can't see someone as human, then how can you really see
them at all. It's his humanity that makes him fallible, prone to pattern,
identifiable, understandable, and the more we understand a person, the more
we can predict their behavior. It's very easy to see the bird's eye view
of this case and make judgments based on that very singular view. Anything in
writing is often wildly different than it is is in actuality. The facts of
this case five years ago were that Kimberly didn't cooperate with the investigation. It
was said in interview, it was written in the files, and so it
became fact. One thing I'm incredibly proud of is how this podcast has broken
down the mythology surrounding Israel Keys, the mythology based on written materials that made
him some sort of super predator. People glommed on to the most interesting aspects
of Keys and his crimes, overlooked the mundanity of his humanity, and turned
him into the most methodical serial killer ever, a biohacking killing machine, the
only serial killer with impulse control, and so on and so on. But
we know now that none of that is true. It's the truth, slowly
editorialized over and over again over time into mythology. But in order to actually
connect Keys to his crimes and actually see the story for what it is,
we have to see it in its entirety, not the cherry picked pieces people
want to sell us, not the exaggeration of a person, not the person
as a monster, but the person as he actually was. Between March thirteenth
and April twenty ninth of twenty twelve, Kimberly was interviewed by APD and or
the FBI at least four different times. However, there are indications that there
were at least two additional interviews. With the files that we were able to
obtain, we can confirm that she spent a minimum of six hours answering questions
about Keys, her relationship, her sex life, their travels, his family,
his work, their finances, and so on. Following Keys's arrest,
Kim lost access to her home and car, both of which were considered crime
scenes. Her phone and her wallet were also confiscated, so she had nowhere
to go, no way to reach anyone, and no cash or credit cards
to get a hotel or even a taxi. And yet she continued to meet
with the FBI and answer questions. She even went as far as to hand
over her phone a second time without asking for a warrant. And yet Monique
Dahl treated her like a dog, and still Kim kept going back, and
she kept cooperating after she lawyered up. The Kimberly interviews have become incredibly important,
not just to the FBI's investigation into Keys, but also for our investigation
into Keys and his potential victims. They've given us a very clear look at
keys life in Alaska, his relationships, his free time, places he frequented,
how he and Kim spent time together, how he and Sarah spent time
together, drugs and medications he was using, prescribed and otherwise lies he told
when exactly Sarah was there, and when exactly she wasn't, when exactly Kimberly
was there, and when exactly she wasn't, and so on and so on.
For starters, both Monique dol and the FBI had a very strong interest
in Keyes's drug use. I know as real as a drug problem. Mkay.
Uh, I'm not gonna tell you that. I think we both already
know. Kay. You're you're you're a medical professional. You're just as observant
as I am. You you know what's going on. Okay, this isn't
a drug case. I'm not interested in making a drug case. I haven't
been working for twenty hours a day, six weeks to make a drug case.
That's not what I do, Okay. I come out for the big
stuff. I come out to find the missing girl. My one and only
mission right now is to either get this girl back home safe to her dad,
or to recover her remains for her father. Okay. And I can
tell you that that is absolutely my number one priority. Okay. I'm again,
I'm not here to make a drug case. With that being said,
if I need to make drug cases in order to recover this girl one way
or the other, I'll do so, Okay. So I've been the one
to look her father in the eye every day for the past six weeks and
tell her that or tell him that we don't know where his daughter is.
And I'm not going to do that for much longer. All Right, I'm
going to give you another opportunity. He's never taken mess, never had any
IV meths, and while kimberly insisted that she didn't know Keys to do any
drugs other than recreational marijuana, Monique Dahl was persistent in her claims that she
knew for a fact that Keys used meth. It's a claim we've never been
able to verify in the files, but one I don't necessarily doubt because there
are at least three anchorage sightings involving Keys either buying or selling drugs, one
such sighting occurring in the parking lot across the street from common Grounds just weeks
before Samantha's abduction. All three sightings specify his exact truck, and two of
the three were in locations Keys was known to go. The FBI later asks
kim about medications found in their Spur Lane house, specifically, four medications either
prescribed two Keys or found within his personal possessions. The first was an anti
viral medication that Kim couldn't identify, and she made a point to say that
it was strange that she'd never seen it before, mostly because she didn't know
Keys to go to a doctor in Alaska and she never received pharmaceutical samples in
her current job. The second was an antibiotic that Kim prescribed Keys after she
noticed to deep cut in his hand and became worried about an infection in his
tendon sheath. When she asked him how he got the cut, he said
that he cut it on baling wire. Samantha Koenig's remains were tied and attached
to anchors with baling wire, but this cut showed up years before Samantha was
murdered. The final two medications were antidepressants that Kim had prescribed to Keys over
the winters of twenty ten and twenty eleven. Kim described Keys as someone who
suffered from severe seasonal depression, and that during his last two winters he stopped
working, stopped socializing, and drank heavily. It got so bad that at
one point she pulled a drink out of his hand and poured it on the
ground, and that's when she told the FBI that in the January before his
arrest, he threatened suicide. Here's what she said. He told me he
wanted to kill himself. I got really upset, and because I'm a medical
person, I knew if I called nine one one, all they would do
is have the police come and take him to the er. They'd hold him
overnight. He'd have a big bill and they wouldn't do anything about it.
Because I've had patience, I've had to call on, so I didn't know
what to do. I just didn't know what to do. He'd been depressed.
I think a lot of his depression was that, you know, I
think he knew it was over, like there was no reconciliation. I think
he'd had a hope before that, and I think he'd, you know,
put so much money and time into his business and just didn't want to keep
living here because of the winters and stuff, and it's expensive and all that.
I think he just didn't know where to go. I think he was
a little disillusioned because he worked for a lot of people up on the hillside
that had half million dollar houses and they would complain about how broke they were
and things like that. He just said, I can't believe they say that
when there are starving people in the world. He told me he didn't have
any social support, or you know, I was kind of his only social
support. He's really shy, and he had a couple good friends down in
the Bay, but not so much here. It's hard, he's shy.
It takes them a while to get to know people. So his friends were
just my friends. We're talking to some people who are a little concerned for
him as well, reference his depression, and they've spoken of unexplained crying and
outbursts from him, and that brings us quite eerily into February of twenty twelve,
because Kim said that when she arrived in New Orleans to me Keys and
Sarah for the cruise, his demeanor had started to change. He was more
upbeat, more himself. But then in the following days while visiting his family
in Texas, they reported that he was prone to having these unexplained emotional outbursts.
But then again when he arrived back in Alaska, according to Kim,
he was happy and motivated and started booking jobs and planning for the future.
It was like a switch had been flipped. His behavior was night and day.
And there are a handful of explanations that may be tied to these extreme
and rapid behavior changes. First off, I asked doctor Cunkle what he made
of this, and here's what he said. Many serial offenders are at least
partially or in some cases mainly, fantasy driven. They spend a lot of
time not offending in practice, but during that time the fantasies endure and changed
depending on what stimuli they are engaging. In addition to the fantasy is the
criminal skill building and preparation that must occur to sustain their offending. This is
why many are so good at avoiding detection, because they are so invested in
not just remaining free, but also preserving the fantasy. When an offender activates
the fantasy into action, they are left with uncontrollable circumstances that may not necessarily
fit into the template they have constructed. In Keyes's case, he said that
killing would amp him up, adding another layer to his pattern and needs.
For example, I get the sense from his interviews that the Koenik case left
him wanting more. It seemed to fit many ideals for him. But he
also was working under time pressure as he went further with things and initially planned.
In this case, he underestimated her acquiescence and ended up deeper than he'd
planned. I'd be willing to bet that over the next several weeks while he
was traveling that he was steeped in anxiety and fantasy waiting to get back to
her. This would have noticeable effects on his behavior. It's very conceivable that
this happened with other kills, as each one brought its own novel experience and
fed into the fantasy and preservation cycle. Keys impresses me as the type of
offender who could mask his fantasy world pretty well, but in instances like the
above, it would leak in. This is also state dependent on his satisfaction
stamina related to keeping up the double life facade. Looking at the pictures of
the Alaska house offers a great window into his separation of selves. The pristine
craftsmanship of the main living space as compared to the haphazard basement space provides a
first hand view of his psychology, and these behavior changes also come up from
Keys in his own FBI interviews. I was kind of out of control a
little bit since the stuff happened in Alaska was kind of not the way I
reacted to. The whole thing that happened in Alaska was a lot different than
normally. I just well, like after the Okay, after the Courier thing
in Vermont, it kind of calms me out for a while, and I
just went back to Alaska and just work, you know, like for six
months some everything business as usual. But after the stuff in Alaska, I
couldn't couldn't concentrate anymore on anything but about that sort of thing. And this
is clearly present in the days he spent trolling Texas looking for someone to kill,
and his subsequent arson and bank robbery there, but those were after both
the cruise and the outbursts with his family. Between Samantha and his upbeat personality
on the cruise was Lafayette, Louisiana. And that brings us to one of
the many lies we learned that Keys told Kim and his family True crime bullshit
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com slash tcp keyes told the FBI several times that the great thing about dating
Kimberly was that she was, in his words, self contained. She didn't
ask a lot of questions or get too involved with his personal life, and
even she admitted that she'd only met his mother once and couldn't even name most
of his siblings. She told the FBI that it wasn't until she stopped working
as a traveling nurse and began spending more than just weekends with Keys that she
realized they weren't compatible. They'd lived very separate lives until shortly before their breakup,
so Keyes knew that he could lie to her, which he did.
He told Kim that he wanted to fly out to Texas a week before the
crew so that he could spend time with his family. But he told his
family that he landed in Texas and then drove directly to New Orleans. And
we know that neither story is true because he spent those three days in Lafayette,
Louisiana, and it turns out not a single person knew he was even
there, except for his ten year old daughter, And in those exact three
days, Christina believes that she was chased by him in a cemetery Invider,
Texas and Mark Julian Oldberry later disappeared from a campground several miles away Invidor,
Texas. Here's keyes discussing that very trip, specifically the Glen Rose, Texas
cemetery map that they found on his phone. So there was no significance to
a cemetery like there was to a church like you had talked about before.
Not really, I mean I like cemeteries. I don't know beyond that,
it's not really The churches obviously had to do with the whole religious piece,
but that cemeteries, there was none of that for you. It was just
convenience, remoteness. You like them, You're that kind of thing. Yeah,
like them? Why you liked cemeteries? Do you think? I don't
know. I just always have morbid fascination cemeteries. It's a lot easier to
explain your presence there too, if someone happens to show up, so you'd
find a stone of someone to pretend like you were there to visit. Yeah,
I mean easier to explain than something. So you're always thinking of that,
You're always thinking of your what you would say if you were ask about
your presence. Yeah, it doesn't always work, so obviously you have to
have a backup plan. But at least you know like s like I say
cemetery, it's cemetery, campground, something like that. Public places. It's
easier to explain than private property. Doctor Cuncle sent a follow up text regarding
these behavioral patterns. It says separation and then reunion with his newly acquired love
normal psychological principles applied in an extremely abnormal manner. So one could theorize that
after several weeks of stalking Samantha, Koenig Keys abducted her, but because of
time and physical limitations, this subduction, rape, and murder fail to live
up to his fantasy, and, according to Keyes himself, his urges aren't
satiated, so hypothetically he kills again to sustain a temporary high. He sees
kimberly for the first time since before abducting Samantha, and he feels good.
He's happy the urge is gone, but then after several days, his depression
returns. He's triggered by being around his family, by a general lack of
control. He has regrets about how the Samantha situation played out. Kim is
gone again, and the facade he's created is once again crumbling, so he
kills again and then returns to Alaska and Samantha Koenig. Keys's return to Alaska
and Samantha brings up another lie that Keys told Kimberly, one that was new
to us. In a long conversation about what kind of technology Keys had access
to, including the household desktop and several of Kim's cameras, the FBI asked
about Kimberly's work laptop. They asked her if it was okay for Keys to
use the laptop, and she said that he never did, but if he
asked, she would have given him permission. They asked if it was password
protected, and she says yes, not as far as she knew, Keys
didn't have the password. Did you ever see this this flare? Have you
ever seen that picture before? Would it surprised you if I told you that
we took that off of your laptop? Okay? Have you ever downloaded this
photo? It's taken this photo? After they show her the photo, which
we believe, based on context clues, is a photo of Samantha Konig,
she says no, never, no, Then they ask if it would surprise
her if they told her that the photo was taken from her work laptop,
she sounds absolutely shocked. In fact, for a woman who up until this
point seemed certain that Keys was not remotely capable of hurting Samantha Konig, it
seems that this might be the exact moment or she starts to change her mind.
She says, yes, it surprises me a lot. And then they
tell her that there are more more photos of other women taken from her work
laptop. All of the computers aren't then being processed at the department, but
there are twelve, thirteen, fourteen other photos that are coming. They're not
available right now. Can we get together again. I'd like to show you
these photos and see if you recognize them, if you took the photos,
if you recognize them, or if you've never seen them before. About fifteen
or sixteen, they're going to be photos of females. There are going to
be similar to this. The more the FBI and Kim spoke, the more
it became clear that Keyes was using Kim and lying to Kim in ways that
could have implicated her in his crimes. Another example of this is phishing.
Keyes added Kimberly's name to multiple phishing licenses that he acquired between two thousand and
six and his arrest phishing licenses from all over the place Utah, Wyoming,
Washington, Juno, the keen Eye Peninsula. But when the FBI asked cam
about going fishing with keys, she said a few things. One that other
than dip netting, she hadn't been fishing with keys in years. Two that
she went ice fishing with him just once, interestingly at a location he really
liked near Fairbanks, where they once rented a cabin for a long weekend many
years ago. And three that she can't recall standard fishing with him since they
were living in Washington state, and that even then it was very rare.
And this is supported by multiple interviews with Kim's close friends, all of them
stating and sometimes joking that Kimberly was not even remotely an outdoorsy girl. We
know that Keyes went dip netting on the Keenai Peninsula, so those would likely
be the only legitimate fishing licenses that Kimberly appears on, which brings into question
all of them, but most specifically the July two thousand and eight fishing licenses.
As you may recall, Keyes and Kimberly had two separate fishing licenses issued
for the same two days into very different states. They had illegal licenses issued
for the Keeni Peninsula over the weekend of July fourth, but they also had
a Wyoming fishing license issued that very same weekend. We know that Kimberly was
working in Rock Springs, Wyoming at the time, and travel records indicate that
Keyes did fly in to visit her a week after she arrived, that he
stayed July third through the seventh. So if Kimberly hadn't been fishing with Keyes
since the very latest two thousand and six, what was Keyes doing alone in
the Wyoming woods and why would he need to lie and say that Kimberly was
with him. The idea of Keyes using Kimberly as an unknowing alibi or using
her to cover his tracks it propelled us to start digging further into Kimberly's travel
records, and I stumbled across another oddity that lined up with Keys possibly using
her as a cover. On January eleventh of twenty ten, Kimberly flew to
Conquered, California for a six week work trip in Martinez Unfortunately, we don't
have any flight records for this trip, but we do have notations in her
calendar and the rental car receipts. This is probably because the flight most likely
would have been private, considering the tiny airport that she appears to have flown
into. Upon her arrival there, she rented two cars from the same location
on the same date, both under her name. One was a Toyota Corolla,
which was returned on February twenty fifth, the day that Kim's work trip
ended, with just two hundred ninety one miles on it, an average of
seven miles per day, which would have been more than adequate to get her
to and from her hotel and the hospital she was training at. The second
car was a Ford Focus, which was returned that same day to an unknown
location with four hundred one miles on it. So we started digging into where
someone could get from Conquered California and either four hundred one miles total or two
hundred miles round trip in a single day, and whether it was even possible
that Keys could be the driver of that second car. We started with what
we knew and now know. Keys got severe seasonal depression in the winter and
generally stopped working, so it would stand to reason that he'd want to get
out of town. This was also the week of Keyes's birthday, so again
it stands to reason that he'd want to get out of Alaska, and we
can't place Keys anywhere at the time. On Christmas Day of two thousand nine,
he flew from Orlando to Anchorage and then nothing pops up again until February
nineteenth, when he does a construction job back in Anchorage. As we continued
digging, Kim Kay found something even more interesting. One of Israel's brothers was
in California that same week while he was on a road trip visiting family.
The brother left Maine on December twenty third and drove out to visit Heidi in
Harlan, Indiana for Christmas. From there, he headed toward Oregon to visit
his sister and a girl friend. It appears he got there in mid January,
but on January eighth, before he arrived in Oregon, he said that
he was visiting his aunt in California. Now, the Keys boys had two
different aunts in California, one in Forest Hill, which is outside of Sacramento
in northern California, and one in Orange County in southern California, and it's
unclear which aunt Keys's brother was visiting, but several things stand out. First
off, he seems closer to his aunt in northern California, but heavy emphasis
on seams. Second, throughout his road trip, he discusses it in singular
first person, I am going here, I am doing this, But after
he leaves his aunt's house to head north to Oregon, he starts discussing the
trip in plural first person. We might have time to stop by, duffer.
We want to come see you in Callville. So it seems likely that
he picked up someone while at his aunts, and perhaps most telling, the
Enterprise car rental in Conquered California is exactly four hundred miles from the Enterprise car
rental closest to his aunt's house in southern California, so it seems more likely
than not that the second car was for Keys. Kim had a work trip
and flight to California at a time when Keys wasn't working, was suffering from
seasonal depression, and his brother was going to be in California. Plus it's
his birthday and Sarah is still living with Tammy at the time. So there's
a few options here. Keys drives to southern California, then road trips with
his brother to Oregon, and from there goes god knows where. Or he
drives to Forest Hill, then puts an additional three hundred miles on his rental
car before disappearing. Or he drives to Forest Hill, spends at max an
hour and a half with his family, puts an additional two hundred miles on
his rental car, then returns to Martinez where Kim is, all in a
single day. Or he drives to any number of airports within four hundred miles
of conquered California, of which there are many, But it's the first option
that seems the most likely. And from Oregon, Keys could have rented a
car or hopped on a flight and been almost anywhere for a month before he
started working again and kimberly returned to Anchorage. And you may recall we have
a sighting placing Keys in Minneapolis alone at a Vikings game on January seventeenth,
and two days later Eric Michael Peterson disappeared, a case will be circling back
to later this season. The mysterious disappearance of Maura Murray is a story that's
been told hundreds of times by strangers. But absent in the story you've heard
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and reveal who Maara really was with exclusive interviews Freddi, your first podcast,
first ever. There's a reason that you're one of the only people I responded
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And explore the impact on those left behind. I shouldn't be afraid,
but at this point I am subscribe to media pressure wherever you listen to podcasts.
Like I said earlier on the phone, I had a detective go out
and talk to him. He provided us a couple of names and people that
that no Keys and basically I want to ask you about him Coaster Keys Israel.
How do you know it? I've probably known Izzy for about five years,
five six years peripheral. He's uh was girlfriend a boyfriend, and we
kind of run in the same circles, so quite off, we'd see them
at Thanksgiving or you know, parties in the summer, or if they had
did a road recently. He comes every year for that. Okay, he
has done some work for us at our house also, And when you guys
are doing stuff prior to all this was is he doing some of the stuff
or was he completely separate or he's a pretty reserved guy. Yeah, that's
why it's kind of like, I mean, I've known him for a long
time, but even there, it's a separation when it's your friend's boyfriend for
starters, Yeah, and for a second when he's kind of just a reserved
guy. But yeah, I mean he he came to stuff. You know,
we I have a Halloween party here every year, and I was pretty
sure it came by it became one a woman. No, he didn't come
to the other one, but sure when he come to barbecues, you know,
whatever, friend's wedding, and so now I'm pretty sure. Now we've
got that. You called him on the nineteenth or the eighteenth, or nineteenth.
On the nineteenth, at one twenty one in the afternoon, February nineteenth.
Okay, I attempted to call him last year several times to do another
project for winter, project in my Callins Way, to do some ramp in
the garage on where Collins Oh Collin's Way. Is that a rental of yours
or something? Yeah, that's another prop What did you have? And then,
uh, is anybody living there right now? Yeah? Okay, but
when he did this work, it's vacant. Nothing. At that time it
was vac but now it's not not. Yeah, somebody's occupying it right now.
So I attempted to call him to do, uh, another project for
winter, and then he's not returning my phone call. So when do you
think you tried to call him last last year? I think around around the
November and December. He did, you know, the windows over there.
He did some other work over there, like a year something ago. He
did the floors on this house. This done. Wanted to have a const
thing. Disagress, Great, it's awesome. Well that's what we hear from
everybody. What's your impression of him after you saw this in the place?
What I mean, what was your first instinct when you saw this in the
news he was arrested in relation to this person. Get that what dona come?
And since since that time has there been anything that's kind of popped out
at odd Kirk or or weird Kirk were like, I think she just felt
bad. They didn't know anybody, didn't know where to go. I mean,
they just split up as far as I know, and like November December,
even though I'm not really sure. Yeah, and I know that broke
up. And I think he was probably low on cash is what I heard
too, and just had nowhere else to go, so she like wouldn't down
in the basement. In addition to the Kimberly interviews, the APD files came
with dozens of audio interviews, including many interviews with Keysa's clients and acquaintances friends
of Kim, and even those interviews have been of great value to us.
We've been able to fill in the timeline more, placing Keys at specific job
sites on specific days, placing Keys at various friend gatherings, Christmas parties,
Thanksgiving dinners, anchorage events, and art walks, and we've been able to
get a better view of his social and private life, views not afforded by
documentation or Keys's questionable answers to the FBI's often myopic questions. One great example
of this is an interview with one of Keys's clients. The one interaction that
I had more than then, I'd like to have had now. Because we
were trying to sell the property and doing all this stuff. There was a
couple of things I wanted just done right away. So on one occasion,
I think I went to pick him up and took him to Lowe's and took
him back to his turn again place and then be there and we paid him
a check there. That's the only interaction I had with him outside of the
sh You know where he lived, so I knew where that house was.
We we were both uh talking to him. Actually, I talked to my
watch about this recently, That's why it was fresh in my mind. And
she goes, yeah, wasn't he engaged? So he had told us during
that time he was engaged in that cause I remember he was constructing the whole
front of the house remo house, Okay, And he goes, I'm remodeling
it for my fiance. Kay. At that time, it was kind of
a new place, so I scoped the outside. I never went in.
It was in an upstairs the front was being completely remodeled. Yeah, and
when I came in, he came from like the back front he had.
I wanna see three vehicles there? The one we were used to was a
van? Or used to a van? Kay? Uh? Or that we
had seen? What kind of avan? Do you remember a panel? When
white van? No hand noles beat up? Older? Was it windows?
It was kind of like a construction Yeah, so it was older, older
eighties model. Probably sorry to tell on vans where when they were from.
But he had, uh a truck? Okay? Was it this truck?
You may have seen it in the news. Mm. No, I don't
think it was this new of a truck. In fact, he sold it.
And I say that because now that I see this, I remember talking
about, uh the truck and and he goes, yeah, I gotta get
rid of it. According to this guy, Keys had and frequently used.
In fact, it it's the only car he ever saw Keys work out of,
a white cargo van. We've seen hide nor hair of this in the
files, but this guy says he saw Keys in it multiple times. Based
on the timeline and other interviews, it seems likely that Keys used this mystery
van between his old Ford breaking down and his purchase of the Chevy. But
the important takeaway here is that there are critical details that documentation just can't present
us. But the interview that shocked me the most was not one with one
of Key's clients or Kimberly's friends. It was an interview with an inmate at
an Anchorage jail. This also important. He see one three two were at
Anchorage jail. It's what March twenty ninth, twenty twelve, and it's eleven
twenty one by my phone, Lser Soda is present and we've got prisoner.
You're not a suspect in anything, Like I told you before. You know
what your rights are. I mean, I'm not reading them because I'm not
gonna writch. I'm not gonna do anything. I've just got some questions for
you. Tell me. You know that person right there? I see him
wrong? Why does he have your phone? In his phone? Is a
contact? He's got your name and it says help good YEP. I don't
know. He's got a construction company called Keys Construction Company. You've been working
with him? Israel Keys? Is he is what he goes by. I
think I worked for him for I don't know where what. Well, I'm
just trying to find out when what you did for him. You don't know
when you work for him, but you think you may have. That's kind
of vague. What do you know about it? Not much? When did
you work for him? Uh? I can't remember what did you do for
him? Uh? I don't know if it was him. I got a
painting for him or something, or I don't know when or where did you
paint for man? I'm not really sure whatever it was, what can you
remember? You know who he is? We look at him again? No,
I don't know. A dam is Israel Keys. Yeah, he's the
owner of Keys Construction and that's his truck and he's had that for a long
time. Okay, you must have murder him. Well, he's a suspect
and he's under arrest related to Samantha Kone. You know who that is?
The missing person, the missing coffee briest or kidnapped. Yeah, oh so
it's real serious. You see while we're talking to you. Yeah, your
phone number was in his contact list. I don't know why it would be.
He's got you listed. Ask and it says help. Wow, I
don't know. So you see what I'm talking to you because I was going
to work for him. That could be. That's why I'm here talking to
you. So he's the one that took that woman. Un you know anything
about that? No, I don't heard any rumors about it. So when
do you think you worked for is he? Uh? While back? How
long is it? While? I don't know, I've been, I just
got I've been, I'm doing time. I guess this you did to do
m I know it was him on ripport or I don't know. Where were
you during the months of February March before you got arrested. Did you work
for him anytime in there? Were in March? Yep? This year we're
in March right now. You got arrested March sixteenth. Also in shelter verbwork
February you're in a shelter, brother, Francis you ever came back picked you
have to do work there? Nope. We have long suspected, through countless
sightings and tips, that Keys was frequenting homeless shelters and soup kitchens. People
reported sightings to the FBI placing him at shelters in Washington, New York,
California, Arizona, Massachusetts, and so on. Most notably in Johnstown,
New York, where multiple people saw him multiple times over a five month period,
right around the time that Kelly Sue Acroneck disappeared from that same town.
And while we can't be certain how Keyes met this man because infuriatingly throughout the
eight minute interview no one ever asks him, it is extremely interesting that he
was living in a homeless shelter when he believes he met Keys. In addition
to that, the interview brings up a few other questions We've long had.
One at what level was Keys working with other people? We know through client
interviews that he on occasion hired workers to help him with bigger jobs. But
we've also recently come across at least two people who claim Israel Keys hired them
to perform work for him entirely alone, which means that while Key's construction was
working in Anchorage, Alaska, Israel Keys could be somewhere else entirely. And
two, is it possible that Keys would give his credit cards to helpers or
subcontractors to charge for job materials, Because if so, financial records cannot exclusively
be used to place Keys in Alaska or to rule him out of crimes that
occurred in the lower forty eight. It's very easy to get caught up in
the investigation, in the files, in the facts, in the need for
answers, and just as easy to forget the reality, the humanity, the
nuance, the people and their stories, and the stakes we all have or
lack in all of this. When it comes to crime and murder and horrendous
acts from people. It's easy to deny empathy or humanity. It's easy to
live in the black and white and use it to propel our voices and judgments
and actions and empathy. But when we do that, we give keys more
power, and we strip power from ourselves and from people like Kimberly and Sarah
and Tammy and his family, from the lives they actually lived, from the
traumas they actually experienced, from all the realities that can't be documented in FBI
files, and from our own ethics and morals. The Kimberly interviews have so
much value, but they are also some of the worst moments of her life.
It's very easy to get caught up in the value of the documentation and
overlook or underestimate the value of her experience, her life, her privacy,
her right to heal from this, the views have to expand the greater goals,
or else the greater goals will be entirely lost. Because the stakes in
all of this are incredibly high, but they don't belong to us. Most
that don't have the luxury of giving. If you're talking giving up, well
that's another thing. It's the sun it's gonna set. This isn't a quantunsh
I don't even need to and just want the view. That's it. Found
a place sat on the plane with some stays to fall apart, with a
lot fad out and your lass a guest you can do your lass guest out
about to give you told me, let's see the stitch, such says.
This episode was written, researched, edited, and produced by me Josh Hallmark,
with additional research by Shana Lensky, Michelle Tooker, Jordan Taylor, and
Kim Kay. This episode was made possible by the following Patreon producers Amelia Hancock,
Amy Basel and el Ash Fish, Benjamin Choppathon Casey Jensen, Richardson,
Drew Vipond, Hallie Reed, Jessica Ally, Hodsick, Jillian Natale, Kathleen
Studter, Kendall c kimberly Ka, Lanna, Laura and f Lindsay Curtis,
Lindsay Lucifer, Lindley, Tuscoffman, Nolas Bullacus, Nicol and Dennis Henry,
Sarah King, s C. Shelley Brewer, Sherry De, Tuesday Woodworth,
Vickey, Russell, zach Ignottowitz, Warren, Beth McNally, John Comrie,
Jordan Taylor, Carly McNutt, Sarah C, SHAWNA Harden, and Lydia Fiedler.
Thank you to Studio Both, Anne's newest Patreon supporter, Tom G,
Marie, Christina G, Meg H William E. S Junior, Megan R,
Christina W, Bonnie C, Jennifer I, Meghan M, Sam,
Ali b aster K, Colin A, Teresa and Chris S. To support
the investigation, go to Patreon dot com slash Studio both And. This episode
included music by William Hellfire, Radical Face, Sarage, Chimisanov, Sarah Esther,
Abramy Hive, Kyle Preston, and part Helium, with featured music by
the New Pornographers, Suss Scouts, Scouts Skins