WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.960 --> 00:00:08.000 All right, welcome back, and joining us now is Jay Warner Wallace. 2 00:00:08.039 --> 00:00:11.640 He's been a guest once before. We've talked about his background. He was 3 00:00:11.720 --> 00:00:17.839 a cold case detective. This is somebody who goes back and investigates murder cases, 4 00:00:18.039 --> 00:00:21.760 things that don't have a statute limitations, murder cases where perhaps all the 5 00:00:21.839 --> 00:00:26.239 witnesses have died and he's just going back looking at the physical evidence of it. 6 00:00:26.359 --> 00:00:29.239 He's now written a book called The Truth and True Crime, and I 7 00:00:29.280 --> 00:00:35.280 love the tagline here, when investigating death teaches us about the meaning of life. 8 00:00:36.119 --> 00:00:38.640 It looks like a fantastic book, and so I wanted to get him 9 00:00:38.679 --> 00:00:40.600 on to talk about that one as well. Thank you for joining us, 10 00:00:40.600 --> 00:00:43.479 sir, Well, thanks for having me. I really appreciate. This is 11 00:00:43.520 --> 00:00:46.560 my favorite book I've written so far, so I'm glad to talk about it. 12 00:00:46.679 --> 00:00:48.920 Oh, it looks like a great angle, and you know, and 13 00:00:49.000 --> 00:00:53.119 something that you know really affects all of us, and everybody loves the crime 14 00:00:53.280 --> 00:00:57.159 aspect, and the things that you glean from it too are really interesting. 15 00:00:57.200 --> 00:01:00.640 I think. Yeah, I think there's actually some hidden like I was not 16 00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:03.400 a Christian through all my career, but through the first eight years or So 17 00:01:03.560 --> 00:01:07.640 I was not a believer until I was thirty five. I became a believer 18 00:01:07.719 --> 00:01:12.200 by examining the Gospels kind of from a forensic perspective. How do we know 19 00:01:12.319 --> 00:01:17.239 or why would we trust if we tested these people as eyewitnesses? Why would 20 00:01:17.239 --> 00:01:21.519 we even think number one, that they are written by eyewitnesses or even anybody 21 00:01:21.560 --> 00:01:23.719 who had access to eyewitnesses. And if you did believe that, how would 22 00:01:23.719 --> 00:01:27.400 you test them to see if they could pass the test? Now, once 23 00:01:27.480 --> 00:01:32.439 I was in I started to look at human behavior a little bit differently. 24 00:01:32.560 --> 00:01:37.719 Right, if you work murders, you are seeing people at their rawst point, 25 00:01:37.760 --> 00:01:42.439 the point at which all of the kind of bars are off. I 26 00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:45.239 mean, this is sadly, when you get to the point where you were 27 00:01:45.239 --> 00:01:49.079 willing to do something crazy like this, it's probably because you've been pushed to 28 00:01:49.079 --> 00:01:53.200 a certain limit and your true nature is now going to be revealed, and 29 00:01:53.239 --> 00:01:56.680 it really, I think, exposes all of our true nature. So I 30 00:01:56.680 --> 00:01:59.879 wanted to write a book that has talked about like, what are these attributes 31 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:05.920 fifteen attributes of human flourishing that I discovered in fifteen separate crime stories, and 32 00:02:05.959 --> 00:02:08.000 then talk about, you know, is that something Number one that yeah, 33 00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:12.039 secular people, they do studies on this, and they confirmed that this is 34 00:02:12.080 --> 00:02:15.280 these are fifteen things that if you simply embrace these fifteen principles, you will 35 00:02:15.280 --> 00:02:21.199 have a better life. But it turns out these are fifteen ancient descriptions of 36 00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:25.080 human nature from the Scripture that people for the most part, think they're discovering 37 00:02:25.080 --> 00:02:29.599 them in the last three three decades, when in fact, these have been 38 00:02:29.599 --> 00:02:31.439 on the pages of the New Testament for two thousand years. And so I 39 00:02:31.479 --> 00:02:36.120 really wanted to do a book where I kind of demonstrated that that's amazing. 40 00:02:36.319 --> 00:02:42.039 Yeah, it's And why did you do a forensic investigation of Christianity in the 41 00:02:42.080 --> 00:02:45.360 first place. Well, I was thirty five, so it was probably about 42 00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:47.439 nineteen ninety five or six, right in that range. It took me about 43 00:02:47.439 --> 00:02:52.520 eighteen months, I would say, to complete the stuff that I was so 44 00:02:52.599 --> 00:02:55.800 skeptical and not raised around Christians or anybody really believed in God in a way 45 00:02:55.800 --> 00:03:00.520 they could articulate. So I didn't have like a leg up like somebody who 46 00:03:00.520 --> 00:03:01.919 could say, hey, look at this or look at that. I had 47 00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:05.599 to come out a row and so I bought my first Bible. I was 48 00:03:05.639 --> 00:03:07.879 thirty five, and it took me a while to kind of go through the 49 00:03:07.919 --> 00:03:10.919 Gospels, and I was just tearing them apart from just word usage, you 50 00:03:10.919 --> 00:03:14.840 know, all the attributes. I wrote about this in a book called Cold 51 00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:20.360 Case Christianity, and that book just kind of covers that journey. But that's 52 00:03:20.360 --> 00:03:23.479 something that'll get you to the point where you might believe it's true. Look, 53 00:03:23.560 --> 00:03:27.280 I think that that as a boomer, as somebody who's older, I 54 00:03:27.360 --> 00:03:30.080 have a high value for whether something is true or not. And there are 55 00:03:30.080 --> 00:03:34.360 people in my generation would probably agree. But I don't know that that's the 56 00:03:34.400 --> 00:03:38.000 case for young people gen z and millennials. I think they're not as concerned 57 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:42.919 about whether something's true because they've co opted that word. That war doesn't mean 58 00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:46.520 it's true anymore. It means it's true for me. That's right. It's 59 00:03:46.520 --> 00:03:49.599 true based on my lived experience, or it's true based on how I have 60 00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:52.960 applied it to my life. Doesn't mean it's true for them. Now. 61 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:54.680 When I use the word true, I'm using it in a more objective way. 62 00:03:54.840 --> 00:03:57.840 But it's true for all of us, whether we like it or not. 63 00:03:58.520 --> 00:04:01.080 I think that this generation on I can to now, is more concerned 64 00:04:01.080 --> 00:04:05.599 about whether or not it's good because they believe they've been sold by the culture 65 00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:13.439 that Christianity is the source behind every evil intent, misogyny, racism, homophobia, 66 00:04:13.479 --> 00:04:17.000 whatever it may be. It's really they are going to attribute to it, 67 00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:23.480 to this traditional Western culture worldview that we hold as Christians. So I 68 00:04:23.519 --> 00:04:26.920 wanted to show that, Yeah, but if you didn't believe in Christianity, 69 00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:34.040 you're probably already employing its teaching if you're flourishing, and the more you detach 70 00:04:34.079 --> 00:04:38.879 from its teaching, the more you're going to struggle. So I just look, 71 00:04:38.920 --> 00:04:42.680 this is what we're seeing in culture. And so I wrote a book 72 00:04:42.680 --> 00:04:45.759 this time which really looks at all of the data. So most of my 73 00:04:45.800 --> 00:04:47.879 books I spend a lot of time researching. And although this book has about 74 00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:53.839 fifty pages in the printed edition of footnotes, there are two hundred pages in 75 00:04:53.879 --> 00:04:58.399 the PDF file you provide online. Why because I want you to see that 76 00:04:58.439 --> 00:05:01.000 if I'm making this claim, it's support by the data. But it turns 77 00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:05.199 out that that data simply supports what was claimed in scripture two thousand years ago. 78 00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:11.160 So it's eye opening for me to realize that our human it makes sense 79 00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:15.480 though, think about it, if we are designed by a creator God who 80 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:18.160 knows something about us, and we are in his image. Then it turns 81 00:05:18.160 --> 00:05:23.480 out that that book we have called scripture, called the Bible ought to describe 82 00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:28.000 us the way we really are. And if it does describe us the way 83 00:05:28.040 --> 00:05:30.920 we really are, you could consider that at least. I was listening to 84 00:05:30.959 --> 00:05:36.079 a pundit who usually talks about politics recently who's Jewish, and when asked, 85 00:05:36.839 --> 00:05:41.639 when he defends why he's Jewish, he says, well, because it turns 86 00:05:41.639 --> 00:05:45.360 out that these principles work. I thought, Oh, that's interesting, and 87 00:05:45.399 --> 00:05:49.240 he sees that as an evidence that the worldview is true. Okay, And 88 00:05:49.439 --> 00:05:53.120 by the way, that may or may not be an evidence that your worldview 89 00:05:53.160 --> 00:05:57.279 is true. But it strikes me that if your worldview is true, it 90 00:05:57.279 --> 00:06:00.000 ought to describe you the way you really are. And so in that sense, 91 00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:03.439 it could provide you with some insight into your human nature and how you 92 00:06:03.439 --> 00:06:06.839 could flourish. Yeah, it would be necessary, not necessarily sufficient, but 93 00:06:06.879 --> 00:06:10.079 it would be necessary for that. Yeah, true, right, that's right, 94 00:06:10.120 --> 00:06:14.920 exactly right. Yeah, what's the most surprising thing that you found out 95 00:06:14.920 --> 00:06:18.560 about human nature? And investigating this? Well, so every chapter is a 96 00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:21.160 crime story, right, So in one of these stories I talk about celebrity 97 00:06:21.399 --> 00:06:26.720 and how sometimes when you are a local, especially in the gang cultures, 98 00:06:27.199 --> 00:06:30.000 if you're somebody who's known locally, you can kind of become like a celebrity 99 00:06:30.040 --> 00:06:31.759 in your own neighborhood or at least in your own click or your own gang. 100 00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:36.519 And I've got one of these stories here to show how detrimental our pursuit 101 00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:40.759 of celebrity is. And the reason why I wrote that chapter is because I 102 00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:44.439 don't think it's just it's just not just a few of us who are seeking 103 00:06:44.480 --> 00:06:47.279 celebrity anymore. I mean, there are no gatekeepers. You know this, 104 00:06:47.480 --> 00:06:50.920 even think about it. We are able not to develop our own personal platforms 105 00:06:50.959 --> 00:06:57.120 without a gatekeeper at NBC, ABC or CBS that used to be or Salem 106 00:06:57.199 --> 00:07:00.959 right, whatever the radio station was that used to be the gate keepers that 107 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:03.800 kept people from becoming a celebrity. Those are gone. So now all of 108 00:07:03.839 --> 00:07:08.360 us, if we can develop a following, we can make it from zero 109 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:13.399 to it a million listeners without any support. And that's where I think we 110 00:07:13.480 --> 00:07:18.680 have to be careful. It turns out that one of the most powerful attributes 111 00:07:18.839 --> 00:07:24.240 that we could adopt as humans that would change your life as a matter of 112 00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:29.560 fact, if you simply embraced this virtue, you will have increased flourishing in 113 00:07:29.800 --> 00:07:33.920 every single metric that we use to actually measure human flourishing, longevity, mental 114 00:07:33.959 --> 00:07:38.639 health, physical health, the deepness of your relationships. That improve, will 115 00:07:38.639 --> 00:07:41.560 improve your marriage, I'll make you a better employer, a better employee, 116 00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:44.519 You'll learn at a higher level, you'll get better grades, you'll make more 117 00:07:44.600 --> 00:07:50.120 money. I mean, every way that we measure flourishing improves if you simply 118 00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:56.399 adopt this one thing. And it's really the opposite of celebrity. It is 119 00:07:56.439 --> 00:08:00.560 the attribute we know as humility. Now, they've been studying this for about 120 00:08:00.600 --> 00:08:03.759 three decades and looking at all kinds of studies that are out there that talks 121 00:08:03.800 --> 00:08:09.040 about how humble people succeed at levels that are far higher than the rest of 122 00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:13.000 us, and why that might be true. Okay, fine, but it 123 00:08:13.040 --> 00:08:16.319 turns out that humility is one of those things that I think if I ask 124 00:08:16.439 --> 00:08:18.199 people, hey, what do you think the one attribute you could adopt that 125 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:22.600 would help you in every aspect of your life at a higher level than anything 126 00:08:22.639 --> 00:08:26.399 else, I don't think many people would come up with humility. But it 127 00:08:26.439 --> 00:08:30.920 turns out, yeah, it is actually the thing we need to embrace. 128 00:08:30.959 --> 00:08:35.000 Now, what's interesting about that? Think about every worldview that's out there, 129 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:39.639 None of them leverage humility, like the Christian worldview. What I mean is 130 00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:46.960 if your theistic worldview, your spiritual worldview encourages you to do these certain things 131 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:50.559 to reach the highest level that your spiritual worldview offers. In other words, 132 00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:54.320 if it is about earning something, it's a transaction between you and God, 133 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:58.440 a transaction between you and the universe. There's no way to avoid pride in 134 00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:01.440 that kind of system, because at some point you're going to look across the 135 00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:05.120 room and say, I'm doing better than that did. We measure based on 136 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:09.480 our achievements, right. And I have a friend who's now no longer with 137 00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:11.360 this name, Mike Adams. Mike and I would travel and do a lot 138 00:09:11.360 --> 00:09:16.159 of events together, and he used to always tease writ in this book how 139 00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:20.639 to Become Humble in ten easy steps and how I made it in eight You 140 00:09:20.679 --> 00:09:26.360 know, it's like this, there's no way that you can pursue humility without 141 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:31.960 at some point doing just the opposite and becoming prideful. So it turns out 142 00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:37.159 that humility is something you It's an assessment Spurgeon calls it the proper assessment of 143 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:41.639 who we are before a holy God. Now, Christianity leverages this because it's 144 00:09:41.639 --> 00:09:46.639 the one worldview that says, no, it's not a transaction. There's nothing 145 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:48.279 you can do to earn this. As a matter of fact, if whatever 146 00:09:48.360 --> 00:09:52.600 the highest thing you think you hope to achieve in your worldview is, We're 147 00:09:52.600 --> 00:09:56.240 going to give it to you. It's a free gift over here. Why 148 00:09:56.600 --> 00:10:01.399 so that Paul says, no one can boast. It's a an antidote to 149 00:10:01.559 --> 00:10:05.879 pride and celebrity. It's an antidote to look what I did is look what's 150 00:10:05.879 --> 00:10:09.519 been done for me. This view requires us to begin in humility because to 151 00:10:09.559 --> 00:10:13.080 say that, okay, there is God and it's not me, well, 152 00:10:13.120 --> 00:10:15.679 it's a very humble position. I'm not the God of my own I'm not 153 00:10:15.720 --> 00:10:20.679 the center of my own decision making universe. Well, this begins and ends 154 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:24.480 in our Savior, says this pulses have the attitude that Jesus had, who, 155 00:10:24.639 --> 00:10:26.799 although he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with 156 00:10:26.840 --> 00:10:31.360 God a thing to be grasped, but instead emptied himself taking the form of 157 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:35.720 a bond servant, taking the form. In other words, it's all humility 158 00:10:35.799 --> 00:10:39.320 start to finish, And as difficult as that is for us to achieve, 159 00:10:39.960 --> 00:10:43.440 if we don't recognize its power in our lives, will never even try to 160 00:10:43.519 --> 00:10:48.320 submit, will never even begin to let go of the things that possess us. 161 00:10:48.879 --> 00:10:52.480 So I just want to spend one chapter in these fifteen chapters talking about 162 00:10:52.519 --> 00:10:56.279 the role that celebrity plays. And by the way, almost every crime you're 163 00:10:56.320 --> 00:11:01.000 going to, every crime you're going to commit, is driven by these different 164 00:11:01.039 --> 00:11:07.600 chapter but these three prideful motives. It's the pursuit of money, the pursuit 165 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:09.279 of sex, or the pursuit of power. Now, that pursuit of power, 166 00:11:11.080 --> 00:11:16.000 that's a huge category of misbehavior, and that's where celebrity fits all of 167 00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:20.879 us. Look, you and I both would we like more people to listen 168 00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:24.639 to what we're saying. Of course we would. So although we might protect 169 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:28.360 ourselves from the pursuit of money and the pursuit of sex, knowing that that 170 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:33.639 can derail us, we don't usually protect ourselves from the pursuit of celebrity. 171 00:11:35.399 --> 00:11:37.879 In fact, what we typically do is want to increase that area of our 172 00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:41.559 life so we can We'll argue, oh, because I want to reach more 173 00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:46.159 people with this divine message. Really, so we will increase the celebrity. 174 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:48.639 Now, now here's the danger in it, and this is a different chapter, 175 00:11:48.679 --> 00:11:52.919 but there's a danger in this. I have never known anyone of those 176 00:11:52.960 --> 00:11:56.360 three motives for misbehavior, and there are only three. There's not a fourth 177 00:11:56.399 --> 00:12:01.639 motive. There isn't. Now you can just gover this secularly working as a 178 00:12:01.639 --> 00:12:03.759 homicide detective, or you can discover this on the pages of scripture, because 179 00:12:03.799 --> 00:12:07.639 John writes about it in one of his letters. But my point is, 180 00:12:07.879 --> 00:12:11.360 these are only three motives out there for stupid, and if you don't protect 181 00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:13.200 yourself from those three motives for stupid, you will eventually do one of them. 182 00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:18.360 Here's what I've noticed. If you begin to scratch one of those itches, 183 00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:22.120 you will eventually scratch the other two because the other two become available to 184 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:26.960 you on the basis of what you've achieved in the third. So you see 185 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:31.240 this and even Christian leaders right where they fall for someone. Why, well, 186 00:12:31.360 --> 00:12:33.799 here's why, in my opinion, is because as a congregation, or 187 00:12:33.799 --> 00:12:37.320 as your deacon board or your elder board, they're trying to protect their pastors 188 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:43.480 from the sex and money but everyone wants their pastor to be known more so 189 00:12:43.559 --> 00:12:48.360 they can build a bigger church. And when you increase your celebrity, you 190 00:12:48.440 --> 00:12:54.279 only open the door to the other two. So this is why I've struggled 191 00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:56.519 with this even in writing this book, because as I'm writing this book, 192 00:12:56.559 --> 00:13:00.960 if I'm going to heed my own advice, I have to do less of 193 00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:07.000 this because it turns out all of this talking about a book you've written is 194 00:13:07.159 --> 00:13:11.480 about you trying to amplify your platform, amplify your influence in culture. And 195 00:13:11.480 --> 00:13:16.080 that's I think there's a good by the way. All three of these things 196 00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:20.639 have been designed by God for his glory and for our good. We just 197 00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:24.320 happened to distort them. So sex, money, in power is something that 198 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:26.639 God is giving us in a positive way. This is another chapter in the 199 00:13:26.679 --> 00:13:31.519 book. It's a chapter about a guy who was basically homeless and was killed. 200 00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:35.519 And I'm thinking, what are these three motives? What did this killer 201 00:13:35.639 --> 00:13:39.480 have to gain from this homeless guy who was so sweet They called him Santa 202 00:13:39.519 --> 00:13:43.919 Claus because he looked like Santa Claus and he was as sweet as Santa Claus. 203 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:46.279 And what does he offer in terms of sex, money, or power 204 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:50.559 that would be worthy of killing him. Well, here's what happens is that 205 00:13:50.600 --> 00:13:54.440 when we focus on those things that are given to us by God instead of 206 00:13:54.519 --> 00:13:56.679 on the God who gave him to us, we're stopping one level short of 207 00:13:56.720 --> 00:14:01.799 our worship. And we all worship. Everyone worships, whether you're a believer 208 00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:05.480 or not. There is something that you think as of utmost importance that you 209 00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:09.480 dare not take that from me, because that's the thing that I covet, 210 00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:16.960 And this idolatry is what causes us. So in this particular case, this 211 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:20.960 poor guy had slipped over. They were he was recycling stuff. Every day, 212 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:22.159 he would go out and spend the first half of his day picking up 213 00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:26.919 trash cans, going to trash cans and picking up recyclables. Then he would 214 00:14:26.919 --> 00:14:28.960 take them to the recycling center and get just enough money to go and he 215 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:33.840 would buy alcohol and food in the afternoon. And that was his day every 216 00:14:33.919 --> 00:14:37.960 day, very very workmanlike. And he had slipped into an area of our 217 00:14:39.039 --> 00:14:43.159 city that another guy who was doing the same thing felt was his alley. 218 00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:46.799 Don't be picking trash out of those two cans. And although the amount of 219 00:14:46.840 --> 00:14:52.159 money that Santa Claus probably got from that was what pennies dollars? Maybe it 220 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:56.600 was enough. So he confronted this guy. He confronted Santa Claus and said, 221 00:14:56.840 --> 00:15:00.720 don't be doing that anymore at a recycling center. Santa Claus kind of 222 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:03.240 just blew them off. Well, it turned out in that one moment he 223 00:15:03.279 --> 00:15:07.519 had triggered the two of the three things. Number One, he had disrespected 224 00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:09.320 him. So the idea of power, authority, respect, that's in the 225 00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:13.639 third category. Now I'm upset because you disrespected me in front of my peers. 226 00:15:13.879 --> 00:15:18.159 Two you're taking pennies or dollars. But because I've turned both of these 227 00:15:18.200 --> 00:15:22.000 things, I covet them at a high level. I've now turned them into 228 00:15:22.039 --> 00:15:28.919 idols. You dare not try to destroy my idols. And that night he 229 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:35.200 stabbed him to death over virtually nothing. This is the power of idolatry. 230 00:15:35.480 --> 00:15:39.080 And by the way, it's not just people you work and working homicides. 231 00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:41.279 It's all of us. And so on that chapter. What I try to 232 00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:45.879 do in every chapter is show you, hey, if this is your struggle, 233 00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:48.960 whatever these things are, here's a way for you to address it. 234 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:52.399 And in this chapter, I just to ask fifteen questions, like what you 235 00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:54.480 want to know what your idols are, because we all have them. Well, 236 00:15:54.519 --> 00:15:58.600 ask these fifteen questions and you'll probably identify them. And then once you've 237 00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:00.320 identified him, you can start to actually think, Okay, look, it's 238 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:04.399 something that God has created it rather than the God who created it. We 239 00:16:04.519 --> 00:16:08.559 simply have to transfer our worship up one levels, just from the level where 240 00:16:08.559 --> 00:16:15.080 we're stopped in God's creation and back to the creator. And so it's something 241 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:18.159 that if you do it, you will flourish. Will you will not Number 242 00:16:18.200 --> 00:16:22.000 one, you'll protect yourself from stupid and number two, you'll actually start to 243 00:16:22.039 --> 00:16:26.759 pursue the things that contribute to a meaningful life. And I think that you 244 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:30.960 do that with thankfulness because when you say thank God for what that is, 245 00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:34.360 and sincerely think about what it is that God is giving you, you look 246 00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:38.320 at it as not something that you've achieved, then that does move it to 247 00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:44.080 the higher level. And yeah, with that right now, I'm I'm skipping 248 00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:45.480 across a number of different chapters here, but yeah, I think you're right. 249 00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:48.480 I think the part of it is is that what I've discovered and is 250 00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:52.720 true of all of us, is the least thankful people are the people who 251 00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:56.679 think they have nothing to be thankful for or the least forgiving people are the 252 00:16:56.720 --> 00:17:00.240 people who think they have nothing to be forgiven for. So it does turn 253 00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:04.119 out that a proper assessment of who you are, because it's really easy for 254 00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:07.759 me to think, well, everything I've got in my life I achieved that. 255 00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:11.759 Yes, I am the reason for all my success, the reason for 256 00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:15.839 everything I've ever possessed. Okay, if that's your view, well, that 257 00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:19.400 kind of pride is it doesn't lead any more positive. That's right, because 258 00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:23.240 anytime anyone challenges that that might not be the case, you're now offended. 259 00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:30.000 And so it turns out that whatever it is we've worshiped that becomes the master, 260 00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:36.920 the master that you dare not question, the Master that I'm now willing 261 00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:41.240 to give up tons of time for resources for. I can say that, 262 00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:45.640 you know, I had that early on when I was young. I had 263 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:48.640 a lot of success with a lot of stuff very easily, and I did 264 00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:52.000 think it was what I had done. And I got to say, it 265 00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:56.039 was such an amazing blessing for God to take that away from me and humble 266 00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:59.160 me, you know, And that's exactly what it was, and I thank 267 00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:03.160 God for that taking that away from me. Well, the biggest blessings of 268 00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:06.000 my life. And you're absolutely and I think you and I as guys, 269 00:18:06.039 --> 00:18:08.680 we are even more prone to this because and this is a different this chapter 270 00:18:08.680 --> 00:18:11.880 two of the book. It's an identity issue for us. I mean a 271 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:15.599 lot of it is is that I don't have my as a Christian. I 272 00:18:15.640 --> 00:18:18.960 ought to have my identity in Christ. But the way we form identity, 273 00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:21.880 and I covered this in the book, we don't typically form it that way. 274 00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:26.039 What we typically do instead is we form it as men in our achievements, 275 00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:29.640 in what it is we've achieved. So if I asked, you know, 276 00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:32.319 who are you David, Well, You're going to say, I'm the 277 00:18:32.359 --> 00:18:36.079 host of this show. If you said, who are you, Jim Well, 278 00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:37.920 I'm a cold case detective. Okay, is that who I am? 279 00:18:38.440 --> 00:18:42.000 Look, I haven't been in a dayline episode in three years? Okay, 280 00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:45.480 I need at some point you need to say, Okay, who are you 281 00:18:45.559 --> 00:18:49.920 really, Jim? And this struggle of identity is so key to how we 282 00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:53.559 function in the world because identity is really exposed as our forms of worship. 283 00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:59.359 Because I guarantee, as men, we typically form our worship based on what 284 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:03.799 we do. You know, identity when you study it in the surveys and 285 00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:08.359 the research on this, it's inseparable from value and purpose, and unfortunately, 286 00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:14.079 a lot of us form our identity based and reverse. In other words, 287 00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:17.319 we asked the question, where am I valuable? What am I good at? 288 00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:19.960 What do I have purpose in? That's who I am? Rather than 289 00:19:21.319 --> 00:19:23.720 say, well, no, who am I? I want to form my 290 00:19:23.799 --> 00:19:27.759 value and purpose based on my identity first, not my identity based on my 291 00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:33.119 value and purpose, because that's the problem, because there's nothing but pride that 292 00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:36.839 comes out of forming your identity based on what you're good at, because it's 293 00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:40.839 about what you're good at. Yes, so this is and it's the biggest, 294 00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:47.599 one single move that leads to contentment is to reform your identity not based 295 00:19:47.599 --> 00:19:51.039 on what you can achieve, but based on what you receive from a holy 296 00:19:51.079 --> 00:19:53.240 God. That is amazing. When you're talking about that, you say, 297 00:19:53.240 --> 00:19:56.920 you know, how do you define yourself? Is it the show that you 298 00:19:56.920 --> 00:19:57.880 have, is it the book that you've written, or is the career that 299 00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:02.920 you have? Makes me think back to the Austrian Empire. When they would 300 00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:06.519 have their emperors died, they had these big elaborate funerals and they would take 301 00:20:06.519 --> 00:20:10.559 them to this amazing crypt. Actually, I've been there with my family to 302 00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:14.160 see this thing, and it truly is amazing. And they would have as 303 00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:17.720 they bring the body into the crypt, they would knock and the person inside 304 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:19.519 would say who goes there? And they would give all of the big political 305 00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:22.839 titles, you know, he's the empire, the empire of this, and 306 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:25.000 the king of that and all the rest of this stuff. I don't know 307 00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:26.920 him. And then they would knock again and they say who is it, 308 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:32.119 and he would give family relationships right that he has. I don't know him. 309 00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:36.240 And then he'd knock a third time and it would say, and it's 310 00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:40.559 a humble sinner, Ronz Joseph, I know him, enter, you know. 311 00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:42.640 And that's a kind of an interesting thing. Awesome. Yeah, that's 312 00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:47.559 an awesome just a word picture of what we're talking about here. Yeah, 313 00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:51.319 Now, this is something that is and I don't know how much time we 314 00:20:51.319 --> 00:20:52.960 have on this. Let me to say, I've got a friend named Joe 315 00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:57.000 Martin who's a doctor who as a philosopher and a dielogian. We got plenty 316 00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:02.480 of time. By the way, he says that men are all about the 317 00:21:02.599 --> 00:21:07.319 Asians when we have conversations. It's all about the Asians, and I think 318 00:21:07.359 --> 00:21:11.079 it does expose how we form identity. So for example, he would say, 319 00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:12.480 when we meet another guy, we shake hands and we say what do 320 00:21:12.519 --> 00:21:18.759 you do? First ation is occupation. Okay, that's the first ation, 321 00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:22.640 and when we're not really asking what do you do? We are because of 322 00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:26.440 how we form identity as men, we're asking who are you now? As 323 00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:32.720 we ask that, all identity, remember, is comparative. It's not about 324 00:21:32.759 --> 00:21:36.480 well, how wealthy are you? It's how wealthy are you compared to this 325 00:21:36.519 --> 00:21:40.839 guy or everybody else. That's how you know if you're wealthy, how smart 326 00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:45.799 are you compared to others? But sadly, identity is for by comparing, 327 00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:48.400 and that's why it's so prideful, right, because we have a tendency to 328 00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:52.680 say, well I'm better over here, I'm better over there. So occupations 329 00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:55.519 the first ation, and then what we're measuring. We're saying, okay, 330 00:21:55.519 --> 00:22:00.960 well I know what that job requires in terms of education. Second aation, 331 00:22:00.680 --> 00:22:04.000 we're now we're saying, well he's better educated or I'm better educated. We're 332 00:22:04.039 --> 00:22:08.960 measuring here we are in that first conversation with another guy, and by asking 333 00:22:10.039 --> 00:22:14.759 what is your occupation. We're starting to measure the other asians, second one 334 00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:18.559 as education. Third, well, we're asking, well, I know what 335 00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:22.440 that makes. If you're a surgeon, I know you're making some or if 336 00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:26.440 you're an accountant, whatever it is, you're measuring compensation. That's the next 337 00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:30.000 station. So at some point then you're asking, too, well, how 338 00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:33.359 good are you at this? You could be a doctor, but just be 339 00:22:33.400 --> 00:22:37.359 a terrible doctor. Reputation is the next ation. What are we doing here? 340 00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:44.559 Well, we're measuring based on we're assigning value based on the answers here. 341 00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:48.119 And if you're a guy, if you're a cop, especially, you 342 00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:52.400 could be somebody who's that's got nothing more than a high school education and you're 343 00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:55.359 working as a patrol officer and I've been making that much money. You've never 344 00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:59.079 tried to do anything other. But if you're six foot eight and cut like 345 00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:03.720 a Greek god, you're still the biggest dog in their room. Because now 346 00:23:03.720 --> 00:23:08.039 it's about intimidation at the last station. So I think he's got a point. 347 00:23:08.759 --> 00:23:11.799 It's very unlike now. I'm sure that for all of us. If 348 00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:15.200 you're not a guy, you're a woman, and you're listening to this, 349 00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:18.400 then there's probably some other level of but be honest, we do this all 350 00:23:18.440 --> 00:23:23.559 the time. And because identity is comparative, it really takes it rears its 351 00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:30.799 head, most notably in group gatherings where you're introducing yourself because now you're getting 352 00:23:30.799 --> 00:23:37.880 the opportunity to compare. Well, there's the danger in it, and identity 353 00:23:37.960 --> 00:23:45.880 becomes the thing that sadly is behind so much of our trauma and struggle. 354 00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:48.119 This is a separate chapter of this book. I'll give you an example of 355 00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:53.000 this. We would do a lot of work now with officers to Billy Graham 356 00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:56.799 Association in the summer. So we're getting ready to leave in two weeks here 357 00:23:56.359 --> 00:24:00.960 to do the first of six weeks of counseling or marriage resiliency for officers who 358 00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:04.079 have been involved in critical incidents and now they're struggling in their marriage. And 359 00:24:04.119 --> 00:24:07.400 sometimes they only even get there before they get a divorce. They get a 360 00:24:07.400 --> 00:24:10.359 divorce, they say, we're not coming. I always say, just hold 361 00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:12.279 on, just try to get through this trip first before you make a decision 362 00:24:12.359 --> 00:24:18.559 that big. But this is the dire straits therein Okay. I discovered only 363 00:24:18.599 --> 00:24:22.000 three or four years ago that the thing that is the biggest struggle for officers 364 00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:26.759 is, especially if you're injured, is identity. It turns out that if 365 00:24:26.839 --> 00:24:30.640 you were to look at all of the trauma in your life, whatever it 366 00:24:30.759 --> 00:24:33.720 was, if it was an injury, you suffered, a divorce, a 367 00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:37.440 loss of a job, a child being loved, whatever you lost, whatever 368 00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:41.160 it was you suffered in a trauma, you'll see that at that same point 369 00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:44.400 you were suffering the trauma, you had had a relatively dramatic shift in your 370 00:24:44.440 --> 00:24:48.119 identity. You thought of yourself as married. Now you're divorced, you see 371 00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:52.799 yourself differently. Identity is simply how you continuously see yourself. The self is 372 00:24:52.839 --> 00:24:56.400 at the issue, and every time you suffer a trauma, you suffer an 373 00:24:56.400 --> 00:25:03.759 identity shift. So it's interesting that trauma typically causes an identity shift, but 374 00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:08.359 the opposite is also true. An identity shift often causes trauma. So if 375 00:25:08.440 --> 00:25:12.559 you wanted to protect yourself from trauma or minimize the kind of trauma you'll experience, 376 00:25:12.960 --> 00:25:17.680 you need to put your identity in something that can't be shifted, stolen 377 00:25:17.720 --> 00:25:21.480 from you, taken from you, bruised in some way, damaged in some 378 00:25:21.519 --> 00:25:25.960 way. And of the three ways that we form identity inside out outside in 379 00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:30.359 or top side down. Only one of these three ways is stable enough to 380 00:25:30.440 --> 00:25:34.160 protect you from shifting. If you're forming your identity outside in where you say 381 00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:37.400 it like, this is how the ancients did it. You know, this 382 00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:41.079 thing outside of me existed before I was ever born, and I'm just going 383 00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:45.240 to reach out and grab that and form my identity. So it's a tribe. 384 00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:48.839 That's the tribe I was raised in. It's the name of my family 385 00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:55.440 name, it's the profession of my family. We're all cops, so that's 386 00:25:55.480 --> 00:25:57.960 like who I am. Okay, that's outside in identity, and I all 387 00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:02.680 of us do some of that inside out based on my desires, my preferences, 388 00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:06.400 even my sexual preferences. I'm going to ask you outside of me to 389 00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:11.400 identify me based on my innate heart's desires. Okay, that's inside out identity. 390 00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:15.079 Both of those are unstable because at some point your job ends, you're 391 00:26:15.119 --> 00:26:18.680 going to retire, than who are you then? Or you're going to get 392 00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:22.279 injured and or your desires are going to change because your heart is fickle, 393 00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:26.319 it's just the nature of it. Well, then get ready to suffer some 394 00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:29.039 trauma on the course you're like, now, if you've formed your identity top 395 00:26:29.079 --> 00:26:34.559 side down, where you put it in something that's transcendent and unchanging. Then 396 00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:37.240 you're going to have lows in your life, of course, but they're going 397 00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:42.079 to be not quite as deep, because that the day before you suffer the 398 00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:45.119 injury, you were a child of You were in Christ that day. The 399 00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:48.960 day after you suffer the injury, you're still in Christ. You're still the 400 00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:52.000 same God sees you the same way. Now, are you going to struggle 401 00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:56.079 because you're an injury? Of course? But who you are hasn't changed. 402 00:26:56.079 --> 00:27:00.599 And it turns out that's the thing that we struggle with them Almost even in 403 00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:03.839 an injury, it's not so much just the pain of the injury, it's 404 00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:07.880 who am I now? And that's why we have to kind of really be 405 00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:11.400 serious about our identity formation or we're going to find ourselves. It's about human 406 00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:15.079 flourishing. It really is. Yeah, And of course you know, it's 407 00:27:15.079 --> 00:27:18.240 about integrity. And we often think about integrity is how other people perceive us 408 00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:21.839 or something, but it really is how you perceive yourself. Do you have 409 00:27:21.880 --> 00:27:25.319 that integrity? And you have that integrity if you're thinking about that from top 410 00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:29.839 down? This is so wise. I'm really enjoying listening to you talk about 411 00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:33.720 this, and I think about how unique things are right now. As you 412 00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:37.079 begin talking about that, you said, you know, this lure of being 413 00:27:37.160 --> 00:27:41.440 famous or a lot of people following you, that all comes as a social 414 00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:45.599 media stuff. It truly is amazing to me to see that and how that 415 00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:49.640 has transformed younger people. And it is such a transformational thing to think that 416 00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:53.440 there is some value in having a bunch of people that you don't know, 417 00:27:53.880 --> 00:27:57.960 you know, following you and everything I focusing on that, it's amazing. 418 00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:02.039 Yeah, that is something that we take for granted, David. We take 419 00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:04.079 it for granted because yes, we are now in an age the information age 420 00:28:04.119 --> 00:28:08.960 has become the identity age. Why because so how do we start? If 421 00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:11.599 you go on our social media platforms, what's the very first thing? We 422 00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:15.920 have a moniker, like, what is the public name? I'm going to 423 00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:19.720 adopt that I want you to see me as second, we're going to put 424 00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:25.200 a bio. Now we're going to list a series of priorities, identity priorities 425 00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:29.359 in the bio. So all of this, then we're going to spend the 426 00:28:29.400 --> 00:28:36.279 next how many years on social media posting only in a way that amplifies the 427 00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:38.240 way I already want you to see me. That's right. So I'm not 428 00:28:38.279 --> 00:28:45.200 going to reveal something of myself that violates the identity I've already established. And 429 00:28:45.240 --> 00:28:48.000 even if I'm not even thinking about it, my posts always expose who I 430 00:28:48.039 --> 00:28:55.599 am. And there were times in generations prior where you didn't know who people 431 00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:59.640 were, and the way you know who they are now, having access to 432 00:28:59.720 --> 00:29:04.119 every thing we think gives us gives people complete access to who we really are. 433 00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:07.559 And I think we know that if a republic figure, and so we're 434 00:29:07.559 --> 00:29:12.319 careful. You know, I never post anything about my family on social media. 435 00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:17.640 I stay pretty focused in that area of what it is I'm trying to 436 00:29:17.640 --> 00:29:22.039 communicate related to the Gospel, and I just stay focused on that. Now, 437 00:29:22.519 --> 00:29:26.200 that doesn't that gives people a view of me that's not actually true. 438 00:29:26.279 --> 00:29:30.599 It's the view that I'm crafting for them, and we have to be aware 439 00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:33.920 of that. But everyone does that. I mean, I see people I 440 00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:40.480 follow who you think all they do is eat because but it's really that it's 441 00:29:40.519 --> 00:29:45.319 not just that we are in some way forming and sharing our identity. It's 442 00:29:45.359 --> 00:29:51.400 that we are also revealing our idols. We're revealing our priorities. We're revealing 443 00:29:51.400 --> 00:29:55.359 the stuff that we think is so consequential, so important that we are willing 444 00:29:56.519 --> 00:30:00.599 to proclaim it. That's one of the ways you can you can see what 445 00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:03.880 your idols are. Ask yourself, like, look at your social media streams, 446 00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:07.000 Well, I want to know what your idols are. I can kind 447 00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:08.960 of figure it out if you've got a social media platform, right, that's 448 00:30:10.039 --> 00:30:12.160 right. Yeah, we got a full lifelog that is up there. Yeah. 449 00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:15.079 You know, it's such a shallow things we're huming about with social media. 450 00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:18.759 It's there so that you know, you can glorify yourself. Isn't it 451 00:30:18.839 --> 00:30:25.200 interesting that in the last days people become such lovers of self that that that 452 00:30:25.240 --> 00:30:29.440 we've never had those tools, that we've never had the tools to magnify it 453 00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:32.920 exactly. Yeah, And I think at some point we are going to have 454 00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:37.880 we're going to see that this is not beneficial to our well being and we're 455 00:30:37.880 --> 00:30:41.240 going to volunteerly pull back a little bit, or we're going to reach a 456 00:30:41.240 --> 00:30:44.480 point in our lives where we're going to burn out on it and we're going 457 00:30:44.519 --> 00:30:47.920 to put so you might be more active on social media at some point in 458 00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:51.720 your life than you are later. But I'm also trying to be very careful 459 00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:53.000 not to be the old guy who's just shaking his fist at the moon, 460 00:30:53.160 --> 00:30:57.079 right, because yeah, I use social media as much as anybody else, 461 00:30:57.440 --> 00:31:00.480 but I do want us to be very very practical about it. Like, 462 00:31:00.519 --> 00:31:06.319 Look, if we're trying to protect ourselves from what causes us to do bad 463 00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:10.079 things, we have to have a very honest assessment of who we are. 464 00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:12.279 Are we by an instant different chapter in the book, But are we by 465 00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:18.000 nature innocent, born innocent, born virtuous? And we are corrupted by our 466 00:31:18.039 --> 00:31:22.599 families, by our environments, by the systems that are in place, from 467 00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:26.720 government systems. Is that who we are? Or is the flip true that 468 00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:30.279 we are by nature fallen and depraved enough, but no matter what system you 469 00:31:30.359 --> 00:31:34.279 put us in, we'll find a way to corrupt it, even religious systems. 470 00:31:34.599 --> 00:31:37.599 Which of those two things is true? We need to figure that out 471 00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:41.240 because if the second is true, which has always been the claim of the 472 00:31:41.319 --> 00:31:45.960 Christian worldview, that we are by nature fallen, well, now we can 473 00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:49.519 explain certain aspects of what happens in culture, and we can put our resources 474 00:31:49.880 --> 00:31:52.799 in the right direction. Look, Luther put it this way. We are 475 00:31:52.839 --> 00:32:00.160 so inwardly focused that we can take even things that are good and corrupt them 476 00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:05.119 and do them for selfish You can even behave uber Moraley, but you're doing 477 00:32:05.160 --> 00:32:09.839 it for selfish reasons. Even our efforts to do something godly are entirely depraved 478 00:32:09.880 --> 00:32:14.200 and selfish, is what his claim is. This is what you find also 479 00:32:14.240 --> 00:32:17.359 in the modern studies about altruism, like people are trying to figure out, 480 00:32:17.400 --> 00:32:22.319 like, how could it be that someone who could be a Pulitzer Prize winner 481 00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:28.039 can also kill his spouse or her spouse? How could that be? How 482 00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:30.559 could it be that there's somebody who, for the last thirty years has been 483 00:32:30.559 --> 00:32:34.839 an exemplar in our community, the deacon at the church, the doctor who 484 00:32:34.839 --> 00:32:38.200 delivered my babies, Yet thirty years ago he killed his wife. How could 485 00:32:38.200 --> 00:32:42.279 that be? There's no way he could be that duplicit? Is there? 486 00:32:42.799 --> 00:32:45.480 This enigma of man has to be sorted out. Now. What I see 487 00:32:45.480 --> 00:32:50.240 in the studies is that, yes, we do have good examples of the 488 00:32:50.359 --> 00:32:57.319 altruism of humans. Humans are capable of great altruism. They are until it 489 00:32:57.359 --> 00:33:04.920 doesn't serve them personally. I'm usually the studies show that humans are usually pretty 490 00:33:04.920 --> 00:33:08.319 generous until resources get tight. Then we start holding toilet paper. Well why 491 00:33:08.319 --> 00:33:14.279 are we doing that? Because we are, at our base nature self serving, 492 00:33:14.440 --> 00:33:17.799 and even when we are doing good for others, it serves us in 493 00:33:17.839 --> 00:33:21.960 some way. That's why we're doing it. We want to be seen a 494 00:33:21.960 --> 00:33:24.799 certain way. Very seldom do you see people who you know do good things 495 00:33:24.799 --> 00:33:29.640 who aren't proclaiming to you that they do good things. That's how you know 496 00:33:29.680 --> 00:33:32.599 they're doing good things. Well, that's because that proclamation is what they're really 497 00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:36.640 after. Yeah, okay, that's the truth. If that's the case, 498 00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:39.000 then now we can make a proper assessment of our own condition. Number One, 499 00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:44.039 it causes me to know that I am not trustworthy, that I am 500 00:33:44.079 --> 00:33:46.200 no different. Number One, It's leveled the field for me. So I 501 00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:50.680 never went into an interview once I had this realization. I never went into 502 00:33:50.680 --> 00:33:52.759 an interview and thought I was somehow better than the guy I was interviewing. 503 00:33:53.799 --> 00:33:58.000 No, I knew that we're all the same person. But for the grace 504 00:33:58.039 --> 00:34:00.680 of God, my buttons haven't been pushed the way that this poor guy's buttons 505 00:34:00.680 --> 00:34:05.519 have been pushed. Now, look, this is not to try to elevate 506 00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:08.880 people who do bad behavior. I'm a justice guy, so we're going to 507 00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:14.280 take care of this, but I recognize that I am just like him. 508 00:34:14.840 --> 00:34:19.960 We are all just like him. When you watch an episode of Dateline, 509 00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:22.880 I'm hoping you're not sitting there and going, yeah, what an idiot. 510 00:34:22.480 --> 00:34:25.440 I hope you watch it with a certain amount of introspection and you're thinking, 511 00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:30.320 Oh, that could easily have been me, because that is where humility begins. 512 00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:35.320 It begins when you realize the proper role. By the way, if 513 00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:37.599 you know the fallen nature of humans, if you know that's really true, 514 00:34:38.079 --> 00:34:44.119 well that also changes the way you establish systems. This is why our country 515 00:34:44.239 --> 00:34:46.639 was built in a way that had the kinds of checks and balances between the 516 00:34:46.679 --> 00:34:52.199 three arms of the federal government. Why is that there because the people who 517 00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:54.639 formed it new you can't trust people, you can't trust humans. We are 518 00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:59.559 by nature fallen if we don't have a way to check and balance each other, 519 00:35:00.199 --> 00:35:02.000 if we don't have a community. Basically, this is why the Christian 520 00:35:02.079 --> 00:35:07.039 worldview has not lived in isolation, because this is why marriages saw. This 521 00:35:07.079 --> 00:35:09.119 is another chapter of the book why marriage is so important. Because I have 522 00:35:09.400 --> 00:35:15.480 I've close enough to another human that I have given her permission to tell me 523 00:35:15.519 --> 00:35:19.880 where I'm wrong. I've given her permission to help shape me toward what it 524 00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:23.320 is God wants from me. And if you're not in a relationship with somebody 525 00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:30.039 who you know well enough to have given them permission to tell you what an 526 00:35:30.039 --> 00:35:34.360 idiot you are right now, and you don't have true friends, and you 527 00:35:34.360 --> 00:35:37.400 don't have the kind of relationship that'll urge you towards something better. So it 528 00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:42.679 turns out that those are other things that sociologists have discovered. There was a 529 00:35:42.760 --> 00:35:45.639 chapter and here about true friendship. Well, why because I've worked so many 530 00:35:45.719 --> 00:35:50.280 cases where people were killed by somebody they thought was their true friend. M 531 00:35:51.079 --> 00:35:54.199 Well, so what is the nature of quality relationships? So we need to 532 00:35:54.280 --> 00:35:58.840 kind of dig into that because it turns out that there are some relationships that 533 00:35:59.079 --> 00:36:02.599 if you're listening, that you're holding right now, that are hurting you, 534 00:36:02.800 --> 00:36:07.440 that are detrimental to your well being, and that it might at some point, 535 00:36:07.480 --> 00:36:09.400 by the way, likely if I'm the first ting I'm going to do 536 00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:12.840 if I'm working your homicide, is I'm going to look back at all your 537 00:36:12.880 --> 00:36:17.639 relationships because the chances are that is somebody you knew really well who kills you. 538 00:36:19.119 --> 00:36:22.039 Yeah, and in the end we have to ask the question, what 539 00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:25.000 am I doing wrong that I'm hanging out with somebody who I have not in 540 00:36:25.079 --> 00:36:30.320 some way vetted better? You know. So I think a lot of this 541 00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:32.800 is important for us as Christians to say. By the way, the Scripture 542 00:36:32.800 --> 00:36:37.119 has an antidote for that. This Christian's got great guidance for that. We 543 00:36:37.239 --> 00:36:39.239 just haven't been paying attention in this generation, it seems. Yeah, you 544 00:36:39.559 --> 00:36:44.159 have a statement. Many crime stories are centered around poor relationships, you know, 545 00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:46.800 not having a relationship or having a relationship that's going to I guess goed 546 00:36:46.840 --> 00:36:50.159 you into that right some way. Yeah, I mean this is why. 547 00:36:50.440 --> 00:36:52.159 So if you're looking at what causes and we've got enough time, I think 548 00:36:52.159 --> 00:36:58.519 you're to cover this that if you look at what is causing, what really 549 00:36:58.599 --> 00:37:04.440 describes relationships that will cause you to flourish. It turns out that studies show 550 00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:08.559 this one of the longest studies ever done on human happiness, look like sixty 551 00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:14.599 year study that was done, and it really revealed that is your relationships. 552 00:37:14.599 --> 00:37:17.559 They're at the key the core of what causes you to feel content, to 553 00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:22.159 be happy, to have satisfied life, satisfying life. But it's not just 554 00:37:22.199 --> 00:37:25.440 any kind of relationship. It turns out it's the kind of deep relationships that 555 00:37:25.480 --> 00:37:30.960 you cannot have with hundreds of people on social media. So there's three things. 556 00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:35.880 Three things that lead to the quality of flourishing in your relationships. Here 557 00:37:35.920 --> 00:37:39.800 they are. First, you need deep committed relationships with people you've given permission 558 00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:44.000 to be like a brother to say, hey, you know what did your 559 00:37:44.039 --> 00:37:47.000 off the rails here? And that has to be with a small number of 560 00:37:47.039 --> 00:37:52.400 people. You can't have those kinds of deep committed relationships because they require a 561 00:37:52.440 --> 00:37:55.360 certain amount of vulnerability and a certain amount of time. So if you're somebody 562 00:37:55.360 --> 00:37:57.920 who says, oh, I know lots of people, I got lots of 563 00:37:57.960 --> 00:38:00.320 friends, well they're probably not. Then these kinds of friends you need to 564 00:38:00.320 --> 00:38:07.280 have a small number of deeply committed relationships with the third piece virtuous people. 565 00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:13.840 Now here's the reason why. I've met lots of folks who are deeply connected 566 00:38:14.320 --> 00:38:17.679 to others who are not virtuous, and they're basically they're part of their crime 567 00:38:17.719 --> 00:38:22.800 family. And so you can have deep connected relationships that lead you astray because 568 00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:27.960 there's no virtue. Now here's the tricky question is what do we call virtuous? 569 00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:31.760 Who gets to decide? So there's a code of ethics amongst gangsters, 570 00:38:32.039 --> 00:38:35.639 is that what is virtuous? What they say is because they would say, 571 00:38:35.679 --> 00:38:37.760 hey, if you offend us, we're going to come over there and kill 572 00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:38.800 you. That's just the code. You knew better before you did that. 573 00:38:38.840 --> 00:38:42.920 You should have known that was coming, because you know that's what you're going 574 00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:46.840 to get. And so who just gets to decide what is righteous right or 575 00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:51.000 wrong? Virtuous? Who gets to decide that? Is it a group of 576 00:38:51.039 --> 00:38:55.880 people or is it a single individual or is there something that transcends all of 577 00:38:55.960 --> 00:39:02.280 us that it overarches all communities. So it turns out that virtue is something 578 00:39:02.320 --> 00:39:09.679 that does require a transcendent, unchanging, overarching virtue giver the authority that we 579 00:39:09.719 --> 00:39:15.039 would actually say virtue is grounded in because if we say it's grounded in groups, 580 00:39:15.480 --> 00:39:17.559 then get ready for all kinds of stupid. And we're already seeing this 581 00:39:17.599 --> 00:39:22.440 because what's virtuous to even politically, what's virtuous to one side or the other 582 00:39:22.559 --> 00:39:27.519 is very different. Then we're arguing as if there's no transcendent, overarching virtue. 583 00:39:28.440 --> 00:39:34.519 So this is one of those areas your relationships that does benefit from a 584 00:39:34.639 --> 00:39:38.719 worldview in which you can ground virtue objectively. There's a couple of places where 585 00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:43.079 that happens in this book, but this is one that's very important because we 586 00:39:43.119 --> 00:39:45.440 can say you tell your kids all the time, but don't be handles with 587 00:39:45.519 --> 00:39:49.559 there's a bad people who gets to decide they're bad. This is now suddenly 588 00:39:49.599 --> 00:39:52.559 Caught is going to have to cause us to think about how we ground good 589 00:39:52.599 --> 00:39:54.800 and bad. How do we ground a righteousness? And if you're going to 590 00:39:54.840 --> 00:39:59.599 ground it in just the opinion of people, well that's every case. I 591 00:39:59.639 --> 00:40:04.360 work at some point we have to be wiser than that. And that's why 592 00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:07.719 I think it's important for us to adopt the one worldview, graded and humility 593 00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:14.119 that provides you with an objective, transcendent source for virtue that is such great 594 00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:16.360 wisdom. I'm really looking forward to reading this book, and of course it's 595 00:40:16.400 --> 00:40:20.360 just come out, but it is available now, right, Yes, it's 596 00:40:20.360 --> 00:40:23.039 available now, and I appreciate you can learn more at the Truthantruecrime dot com 597 00:40:23.079 --> 00:40:28.719 the truthantruecrime dot com. And because I'm so sensitive to the idea that this 598 00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:31.119 should not be about us just building a platform and trying to sell something. 599 00:40:31.480 --> 00:40:34.840 What we do. At that website, you'll see there's a ton of free 600 00:40:34.840 --> 00:40:37.280 stuff that comes with a purchase. We simply wanted to try to level that 601 00:40:37.360 --> 00:40:42.039 a little bit right so that you don't feel like this is about spending money 602 00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:45.239 on a book. I really want to advance the causes that are in the 603 00:40:45.280 --> 00:40:47.320 book, and that's the challenge, of course. Excellent, excellent book. 604 00:40:47.320 --> 00:40:52.639 Again, it is the Truth in True Crime. That's I in nott nd 605 00:40:52.239 --> 00:40:57.079 the Truth in Truecrime dot com. And just before you go, I know 606 00:40:57.119 --> 00:41:00.639 you got to go. This message is from guard go Ol Smith and Rock 607 00:41:00.679 --> 00:41:04.239 Finney says thank you both. Cold Case Christianity is excellent, and in the 608 00:41:04.239 --> 00:41:07.719 conversation today, I'm reminded that the trap that even catches people who try to 609 00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:13.480 spread freedom messages or biblical messages, it seems that one must beware of commoditizing 610 00:41:13.519 --> 00:41:19.280 oneself. Difficult to promote one's work, even freedom or biblical work without that 611 00:41:19.320 --> 00:41:23.800 promotion becoming self promoting rather than praising God. That's absolutely so good, so 612 00:41:23.880 --> 00:41:28.719 good. Yeah, that's great observation. He's written me before he loved Cold 613 00:41:28.719 --> 00:41:30.760 Case Christianity, which he got the first time I interviewed you. But I'm 614 00:41:30.800 --> 00:41:36.159 really looking forward to the Truth and True Crime. And again there's a website, 615 00:41:36.199 --> 00:41:38.840 the Truth and Truecrime dot com. Thank you much, Thank you so 616 00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:44.360 much for joining us, Sarah. Excellent stuff and such wisdom. It truly 617 00:41:44.440 --> 00:41:46.760 is amazing. Looking forward to reading it myself. Thank you. Well, 618 00:41:46.960 --> 00:41:50.400 I'm indebted to you. Thanks so much for having me I well, thank 619 00:41:50.400 --> 00:42:07.039 you. The David Night Show is a critical thinking super spreader. If you've 620 00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:15.079 been exposed to logic by listening to The David Night Show, please do your 621 00:42:15.199 --> 00:42:22.920 part and try not to spread it. Financial support or simply telling others about 622 00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:31.480 the show causes this dangerous information to spread. Father. People have to trust 623 00:42:31.719 --> 00:42:38.280 me, I mean, trust the science. Wear you mask, take your 624 00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:51.199 vaccine, don't ask questions using free speech to free minds. It's The David 625 00:42:51.360 --> 00:42:55.559 Night Show.