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thinking. This is the Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews. Hey,
beautiful people, So glad you're here. I just had something on my mind,
and I thought maybe i'd wrap a show around it. Hopefully I'm not
guilty of the very thing that I am concerned about, the thing that I'm
going to be exploring on the show. I don't think so. I don't
think so. But you know, when something happens in your personal life,
you, I don't know, you want to express it and talk about it,
and I don't have a lot of people here I can really talk about
it with, so I'm talking to you. Terrible tragedy a friend of mine
on my tennis team his daughter. Fifteen year old daughter was just in a
terrible car accident that she was killed, and the funeral was at a church.
There were Christian family heavily wired in, and so I joined so many
other people to attend the funeral. And I had some people ask me,
well, why would you do that, Why would you go to a church?
How do you even enter a church? This is a religious exercise,
And I replied, well, it's not really about me, right, I'm
going to express love and support. I'm here for you. What can we
do. I want you to see my face and know that I care.
So it's not really about me walking in and so boxing about the fact that
I don't believe that there was a God in control, etc. It's more
about being a humanist, being a human being, demonstrating compassion, saying I'm
bigger than our theological disagreements. I mean, it sounds noble when I say
it that way, but I just that's how I phrase it, Okay.
And I was there and it was tremendously sad. It's just it's a horrible
thing, the loss of a child. I just can't even imagine how you
deal, how you cope and I'm sure there were people in the audience who
have stories of their own journeys through and I'm sure that journey continues every single
day. But I was sitting there and it was an hour and forty five
minutes. The service started with thirty minutes of praise and worship music, and
it was that typical sort of integrity music, hillsong stuff, you know,
that homogenized you alone are worthy. Yes, we love you Jesus even though
we are in sex. You're my God. It was all that kind of
thing. But apparently these were her favorite songs or some of them. Okay,
fine. The funerals about her first pastor comes out, to his credit,
he talks some about Jesus and her faith, but he talked a lot
about who she was, and I think that's critical. It's often missing.
We've all seen those funerals, and I want to hear your stories where you
know, somebody comes out at a funeral and they don't talk about the deceased.
They're busy selling their gods. My father's funeral and he was a devout,
devout, devout Christian, but I was so frustrated because while I expect
and I guess it's appropriate because this was who he was that they say,
he's a man who loved Jesus. He loved Jesus, he loved the Lord,
he loved the Lord. He was he just do you know? Blah
blah blah. But there was so much of it that nobody was talking about
him. Who was he, what was his personality like, what were his
interests? Where did he travel, what experiences did he have? Give me
an anecdote some of his jokes that he used to tell over dinner, What
were his favorite foods at dinner? The things that you carry with you in
memory, those were missing. In fact, it was me, and I
can't believe they actually gave me a few minutes behind the microphone, given our
history, but they did. It was me going up there and saying,
this is what he was like, and I remember this when we had did
this and he did that, and now remember what he wore, and now
remember this quirk that he had. And it was very personal. But it
took the atheist to go up there and describe the man. To their credit,
at this funeral, they described and honored this young girl. There was
a slideshow with images and then there was a second preacher and he came up,
and he was much more overt. Now, the cynic says, they
are preying on people at a time of intense vulnerability, and those things do
happen, but often the skeptic misses the reality that in Christian churches and Christian
cultures, these things are said and done with absolute sincerity and a desire to
be good. He came forward, and he genuinely believed that she would have
wanted something good to come out of her death, and he began to talk
about her love for Jesus and how she would not want anyone to miss heaven.
And did I start to sit forward in my chair a little bit that
I start to vibrate a little bit, Yeah, okay, But I also
saw this almost like you would see. It's in a laboratory where I was
in the faith years ago, when I would be there, you know,
thinking about reuniting with her in heaven and we'll all be at this happy place
where there is no pain, there are no car accidents, there's only going
to be joy. It's going to be amazing. And I would have been
thinking about that. It would have been a balm to my grief in that
way. But now I really became interested in how human beings have long created
the mechanisms for their coping right we are faced with the unthinkable. How natural
is it that so often we grabbed the first pencil we see, or the
one that has been put in our hand, and we draw the happy ending.
We create the mechanism for dealing with this. I understand the appeal.
All things work together for good to those who love God and are called according
to his purpose. The Lord works in mysterious ways. The pastor said,
she was given to us for a time, and in his timing he drew
her home. But one day we will be together, and we should be
thankful for the gift of her life the time we did have. What a
blessing, What a blessing. The rationalist in me is just kicking God's master
plan, even if you only wanted her on earth for fifteen years, which
is sadism. By the way, you give the gift of a baby girl
to a mother and father and they raise her to her teen years, there
is a familial love and bond that cannot be described in language. And then,
just because what God needed another angel in heaven, he pulls the plug.
He strips this daughter away from a parent. Nobody at the church service.
I don't know. Maybe somebody was thinking about that, like why what
father would do that? And what was his method? Did he show up
and the family's all in the house, and Jesus says, all right,
you won't understand my reasons, but I want to draw this young lady back
into heaven and she will be waiting for you. And then peacefully he reaches
over and he lays a finger on her face or grabs her hand, and
she quietly, peacefully, without pain, goes to sleep. No. No,
God's method is to have her body literally beaten to death inside a car,
a smashed, crushed car. But I understood why they were building this
scenario where something good will come out of the pointless. There is a reason
for something that seems reason less. And then the music. I get that
We've all really begun to understand brain chemistry. Communal music is therapy. Communal
music produces brain chemistry. It fires off those endorphins which are balming and calming
elements and bonding elements. They pull people together. It's the same phenomenon you
can get from music in another context, but when you see it in church,
grieving people all singing, raising hands. We understand this is therapy.
These are people trying to deal with pain, and I think that has to
be approached with compassion. But then the pastor led a salvation prayer, and
this is where I start to really get pissed again. He's totally sincere.
But sometimes the worst ideas are done with the best of intentions. I think
the family may have felt better knowing that maybe their daughter's death produced eternal life
in people within the auditorium who said the salvation prayer. But we've all heard
this. There may be some people in this auditorium who came here today who
don't know. They haven't experienced the love of Jesus. They don't know what
it's like to know that when they die one day, they will not die,
but they will enter eternity at the hand of God. If you're one
of those people, I want you to pray with me. Everybody, please
bow your heads, nobody looking around, nobody looking around, and you don't
have to say this prayer out loud, but I just want to pray with
you today. If you don't know the Lord Jesus today, pray this prayer
with me. Dear Lord, I am a sinner. I'm unworthy. I
was born without you, and I need to open up and let you in.
It was that kind of thing, and there was that kind of unworthiness.
Jesus came and died because we're just so shitty. They didn't say it
that way, but that's really the under It was a subtext. Lord.
I asked that you come in, and instead of it being all about me,
it's you, not I. But Christ lives in me, and I
accept you. Please save me. I dedicate my life to you in Jesus'
name. Amen, Now with nobody looking around, If you just said that
prayer, I want you to raise your hand, raise it high so I
can see it. They're oh, look at those hands. I see those
hands. Yes, so many hands. Thank you. You can put your
hands down. Now. If you said that prayer and you don't have a
church home, I want you to find somebody here, somebody on staff at
this church. Tell them what just happened, and let us lead you through
those first steps. And if you have a church, I want you to
find somebody there. When I was a devout Christian, this would have been
a beautiful thing. We knew a guy I remember when I was in high
school. There was a guy and he was in a car accident. I
think I was seventeen, and so was he. He was horribly killed.
People were devastated. The whole school was devastated. We attended the funeral,
but we heard a story there was somebody else in the car and they were
traumatized by what had happened, and through it they came to a point where
they were just devastated, looking for healing, They accepted Jesus and became a
Christian, and so that became the story. You know, the Lord took
him. But did you hear about Bobby over here or whatever his name was.
You know, he got saved. You know, maybe there's a master
plan. Maybe maybe God used our light and momentary affliction to yates an eternal
glory that far out weighs them all his ways, not my ways. The
Lord is good. One hour and forty five minutes, I was a long
ass thing. So glad I went for the people I care about, But
it was hard to listen to. Now we can talk about whether or not
it's healthy or unhealthy to tell ourselves these stories in order to cope with the
unthinkable. And I do think that people need to be approached with compassion when
they tell the stories of heaven and reuniting with those they've lost. Certainly when
it comes to the loss of a child, these people deserve our compassion,
but our desire to see them not in pain and their desire to navigate through
somehow doesn't mean that any of this is true, doesn't mean that any of
it is healthy. I had some people on my page and they're like,
well, I wouldn't put up with any of that. I'd have got up
and walked out. Understand it. I get you. I understand what you're
saying. I wouldn't have even walked into that church. After all, it
is a church. Well, if you've been scarred by the church, I
get that, totally valid. Other people said they would have just they would
have just told the family, you know, I'm sorry for what happened to
you. But there's just you know, there's no evidence for anything that you're
saying. Whoa whoa WHOA time and place, right time and place that was
the time for love and empathy and compassion and going up to someone in the
moment of unspeakable grief and saying your theology is bullshit is not empathy and love
and compassion. And while those conversations should be had at some point, I
just don't think they should be had in those days and in those moments.
I just don't buy it. What message do I send as an atheist by
attending and sitting in the auditorium and just being respectful. I don't have to
pray when they pray. If I bow my head, I don't close my
eyes. Maybe I don't even bow my head. I don't sing the songs.
But I'm there. I'm there in somebody else's context because I care about
them as people. But it's frustrating. It's frustrating, and I find the
Salvation prayer especially frustrating. Now. The church, often for the best of
intentions, will find people that they're most raw, and they'll say, you
know what, We've got the medicine for you. You lost somebody, you're
going through depression. You went through a terrible breakup or a divorce or whatever.
You know, you lost a relationship that you cared about. You were
fired from your job, You have of addiction recovery issues. You're navigating coming
out of an addiction to a substance of some kind. You have been living
by yourself and you have no one, and here the doors open, and
people say always welcome, our doors are open, will be your family.
Whatever they find you at that moment. And because they see it as part
of their work as good people, they will say, hey, we're here,
we have a ministry for you, we have people for you. But
it's also and we have to be honest about it. It's also preying on
those who are most susceptible in a time of real vulnerability. They're just they're
an open wound. They are in that moment, going to respond more quickly
to whatever you are selling. They are they are more apt to buy it.
And then what they enter that cycle of heel is worthy. I am
not worthy, not me, but Christ lives in me. Jesus came to
forgive me because I have a sin nature. All of this communicating what the
problem is me, it's victim blaming. So if I'm going through a breakup,
or I've had addiction problems, or if I'm depressed or going through some
other life crisis, well it's because it's a fallen world. It's just sad.
It's you know, it's just the way human beings are. Fortunately,
Jesus came and he died on the cross. To fix it, all we
have to do is be essentially slaves to him for the rest of our lives.
We've seen ritual, the power of ritual, and that was at play
at the funeral as well. I mean we see structure helps us to frame
the human experience. That's why there are funeral rituals in cultures, religions,
traditions worldwide, all kinds of death rituals that helped you mark the passing of
someone to remember and then what they go off to some other place. Maybe
they become an ancestor that you will one day live with in some other plane.
Maybe they become a spirit. Maybe they visit you in the form of
I don't know, signs, an animal or something. Maybe they come to
you in your dreams. They blend into the energy of the universe. How
many religious traditions, how many faith traditions have an after life scenario that is
framed in ritual where they say it ain't over totally understandable, it's the medicine
we make for ourselves. But does that mean that what we're saying is true?
Should we say, you know, there's no evidence that we'll see them
again, and I have to deal with that, but I had them,
they were here. Life is random and unfair and occasionally shitty. Karma is
total crap. Terrible things happen to wonderful people, and terrible people get away
with it. Every single day. I live a fragile, finite existence on
this rock in a universe that doesn't care. And I understand that there is
no evidence for and after life. I accept that, but you know,
I'm glad we were together. I'm glad I had the privilege of knowing this
person and they and memory will live on in me and in the minds of
everyone whose life they touched. Isn't that a healthier way to deal with grief
and loss? No victim blaming, no original sin, no statements that we
are not worthy, no allegiances to someone that we will essentially have to be
a slave to for the rest of our life, and an urgency to live
now because there's no evidence of a heaven. We're not living for dying.
We're living. An hour and forty five minutes, I'll tell you I came
out. I actually recorded a rant about it, and then I walked away
and came back and deleted the whole thing because it was a little bit too
hot, it was a little bit too much. I was kind of worked
up. But even now I feel like it's a conversation worth having because so
many people could relate to it. Can you relate to it? I'm sure
many people have a story. I would like to talk to you, and
I will start with area code nine zero one. Are you there, well,
Seth? What's your name? Colin? Colin? Thanks for calling?
What are your thoughts on the subject today? When I was a kid,
my childhood neighbor was pretty much a surrogate grandmother to us. She would watch
us when my parents had to work because my mom worked at a nursing home
overnight. My dad was a firefighter so for twenty four hour shifts, so
she'd take care of us. She'd take us out to eat. She was
just always there for us. Our Christmas tradition, we'd wake up open presents
and then go over to her house open presence there because we'd always get her
presence and she would always wrap a bag of peanut Eminem's and about fifteen layers
of boxes and tissue paper to all of that. She was an absolute,
sweet, wonderful lady. She was a teacher her entire life, and her
whole expression was teachers don't have kids, they raised them, so she never
had any kids. And when she ended up dying, she didn't have any
family at her funeral, and she wasn't really religious, but they hired a
preacher because of her distant niece arranged the whole thing, and the preacher just
read the back of the funeral pamphlet that was basically just saying miss Wilma was
a good lady. She loved her dogs, and she loved her pond.
And she died and that was pretty much it. And this lady built an
entire backyard of a handdug six foot deep pond when she was in her sixties.
She was fucking incredible. But the only mention of her at her funeral
was the back of that pamphlet, summed up in under two minutes, and
then there was forty five minutes of gospel preaching. She wasn't even fucking religious,
but that was her final sendoff. And I wish I had said something,
but I didn't want to because I just didn't want to rock the boat.
But fuck, it's it's fucking frustrating to see somebody that I loved my
entire life. I'm thirty one. She died about two three years ago,
and just to see her final sind off not even be about her, Like,
what do you fucking do about that? It's hard when somebody hijacks somebody
else's life in that way? Did she ever attend church? When I was
a kid, I used to be super religious, and every Sunday I would
ask her if she went, And eventually she started saying she did. I
don't know if she ever did. She may have just said that to appease
me. I'm assuming she didn't go, but her niece arranged the whole funeral
thing. The only thing that I think she did right was it instead of
burying her in a dress, they buried her in one of her little sweatshirts
with a Boston Terrier on it. What would you have said had you been
given the microphone at that moment? I would have talked about how much she
loved her garden and how much she loved her pets, and she just liked
people, and she was always there for anybody that needed her. But she
was that one of those happy, go lucky Yeah, I'm right here,
I'm going to help you. It was a yeah, fine, I got
you. You know, she wouldn't want to, but she still would because
she loved you, and that's the kind of human we should all be.
And they never mentioned that. Well, you've given her a better eulogy here.
I'm sorry to hear the story, Cullen, but I appreciate you sharing
it. Unfortunately, many can relate, but I think we also sort of
can support each other in our frustrations and maybe we'll find some solutions if it
happens again. Okay, okay, which is I wish we could take religion
at a funeral, stop making it about where they're going, and talk about
where they've been. I appreciate it, man, thanks for calling. Thank
you, sir. I have a great day. It sounds weird when I
say that if somebody was religious and wanted a religious send off, that's their
prerogative. If somebody wants a religion funeral and they express that, then great,
right their last wishes. I know that the memorials are for those left
behind, but I'll tell you this, when my time comes, I am
going to determine the temperature of how I am memorialized, meaning I'm going to
tell those who are running the show if I know it's coming, Actually,
they already know how I feel. Don't you dare let this happen in a
church. I do not want a pastor. I do not want religious prayers.
I do not want a theme about God. I certainly don't want religious
relatives coming up and grabbing a microphone and doing an editorial about the black sheep,
the lost soul, the prodigal son. We wish she was in heaven.
Don't be like Seth. I mean, I don't know if that would
ever have. I'll set some parameters, and I do think that the memorial
service should represent those who passed on therefore those who are left. But it
better reflect me, my life, my values, my attitude, my personality,
you know, or I will find a way to come back and haunt
your ass. Relating to what he had said about this woman who was not
religious, but she ended up having a church service for a funeral against her
wishes, I'm sure. I used to be in corporate radio FM radio with
a guy and he was not religious. I'm telling you he never talked about
God. I know he didn't go to church. He was kind of this
hard living dude. But he was a real nice guy. Died of a
heart attack too young, he was in his fifties. And I went to
the funeral. It was held in a church. I know it wasn't his
church. Maybe his name was scribbled on a roster because he visited, but
he didn't go to church. And you know what the pastor talked about,
Well, you know, he loved the Lord, and you know, you
always you didn't always see it out there when he was talking to you.
You know, we didn't bring it up very often, but we know he
was a good Christian. He loved him some Jesus. And I was sitting
in the pew when it was a few going that's a bunch of crap.
This is fiction. This is not what that guy. He wasn't like that
at all. And yet they tend to take this person's life and they air
brush it into something that looks more like the Lord. And I think that's
offensive. I mean, sure, yeah, the guy didn't go to church,
never mentioned out loud he was a Christian, didn't pray before meals,
didn't have a Bible, no, the Bible, didn't act in any way
religious in any aspect of his life. But he's with the Lord now,
because what when he was six he knelt down and said a prayer that his
parents wanted him to pray, and then he lived a totally non Christian life,
and then they spend all this I think that pastor had I think he
did a salvation prayer too, you know, I think he said, we
hold to a Christian faith here and we'd hate to see anybody miss out on
the heaven that he is now enjoying him is the same stuff, same stuff.
Anyway, I've got to take a break. We have so many people
cueued up wanting to talk about this topic. We will continue next. My
patrons help me to do what I do, and if you are not a
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real difference. You get the show early and commercial freepatreon dot com slash Seth
Andrews, Bethany, thanks for waiting. Are you there, Hi, Seth?
How's it going? I'm well, what's on your mind? Bethany?
What's your perspective? So I had this similar type of experience this past July,
well twenty twenty two. I had traveled to Madison, Wisconsin for my
grandfather because it took a while for us to even get the funeral schedule.
Thought it was going to be pretty basic eulogy. He had this life.
He was a machinist kind of more of a celebration of life type of ceremony,
and my uncle, with my mom's brother, the oldest son of the
family, decided he was going to be doing the eulogy, and unbeknownst to
me, it turned into a massive sermon, diatribe, altar, call Jesus,
Romans Corinthians. It was horrific and I had that was probably my second
funeral that was like full blown Christian type of preachy things since I've converted as
an atheist. And I was so mad. I didn't realize. I didn't
even realize this was happening to me in the moment until I was picking at
the grass because it was outside. I was I was pulling at the grass
so hard because I was so furious, like I could not function, and
I was just sitting there just like, Okay, this is just who they
are, but like, what is happening right now? And it was It
was bananas. And I asked my mom about it later, I said,
did you know he was gonna do that well, he wasn't supposed to go
into all that at the funeral. It was a little heavy and like you
think, because two of us were atheists in that crowd. So they just
ambushed everybody and excused it because this is what the Lord would have wanted.
You know. Probably my mom denies, like, oh, yeah, this
is a chance to like, let's just preach out, because your family probably
too when you growing up. Oh isn't this a great chance? Everybody heard
the word and the plan of salvation, So now everyone doesn't have any excuse
when they stand before God one day. Excuse me? What? Yeah,
that's not even passive aggressive, that's just aggressive. That's a threat. Now
you're on the hook except or reject. The choice is yours. Yep.
And I was like, you know, I don't care for your version of
substitutionary atonement. I don't. I don't care. Go wash off the grass.
Stanes Tega deep breath, Thanks for sharing this and hang in there.
Okay, absolutely, thank you so much. You later six zero five?
Is it Rachel? Yes, it is hi, Rachel. What's your experience?
You want to talk about her? I've just immediately I saw your live
I'm like, oh, I have to call a couple of years back.
I grew up in a very like an evangelical Word of Faith church, and
there were several families that we were all very close to, and our whole
life was the church, right Like, we spent a lot of time there.
Our parents were all either in like music ministry or children's church. So
the pastors and everyone, we all knew each other very well. Well.
Sadly, one of the friends, like in this group, she was closer
to my brother's age, passed away do it to a drunk driving accident.
She was like twenty two, very vibrant, beautiful, intelligent, just social
person, and so you can imagine it was a surprise to everyone. We'll
get to this funeral and the place is packed and it's very emotional. And
I thought, you know, thinking, like these pastors grew up with her,
like we all know each other really well, I'm expecting to hear some
heartfelt stories about her and her life and her as a child growing up here.
And I think the only anecdote they added outside of just reading the back
of her pamphlet was how close she was, you know, reigniting her relationship
with God. It was so insulting and so hurtful, especially since you know
they should have known something. But the whole service was about Jesus and coming
to Christ and at one point, you know, making I believe the point
of this was to say that, like, this earthly life doesn't matter,
which is messy all in itself. But it was starting to talk about the
story of Lazarus, and I think there was just a cold chill that ran
through the room, like are you going to try to resurrect her Lazarus?
Yeah? I was just like dumbfounded. Wow, did you fantasize about going
up there and giving a better eulogy? Because I've done that when I've heard
somebody who has been going on and on waving the Bible, I have fantasized
about shutting their microphone off and marching up to the front and saying, all
right, everybody, we're going to talk about Karen or whoever. I mean,
do you fantasize about doing that? I think it was more of an
angry fantasy of being like, go sit down, sir, you should know
better. The one who's dedicated so much of their life to this poor preachers
suddenly mute. You know, he can't speak it's like that scene in the
Matrix squere Neo's mouth disappeared. It's oh, it's too bad for you.
I guess we'll have to do it differently. Rachel, thank you for sharing
your story and thank you for calling. I appreciate you. Thank you.
I'm going to read for you when we're almost done. Here a beautiful piece
that was brought to my attention. This has been a few years. It's
called you want a Physicist to Speak at your Funeral? And I thought it
was really good someone to read it for you here in just a little bit.
I told Natalie Wants that if I knew it was coming, like I
had just I've recently been reading about the tragic story of Bruce Willis, the
movie star, and he has a horrible disease, a kind of dementia that
is just robbing him of who he is. And he had been starring in
these really, really bad sort of indie movies. They paid him a million
bucks. He stood on screen for about four minutes, he did some non
acting, and people were like, what the hell is going on? Bruce
Willis is starring in all these crap movies? Is he just cashing in?
He's taken a check. The Raspberry Awards, which is the antithesis of the
Academy Awards, gave him a Razzie for the Worst Actor, and we were
all thinking, God, he's just he just fill in his pockets. He's
lazy, right, I remember. There were a lot of conversations along those
lines, and then we heard about the fact that Snow he had a disease
and he was taking work that would allow him to pretty much stand in one
place and say a few lines which likely had to be recited for him,
and he would repeat them back. And he was doing what he could because
he had a terrible fatal disease. And the Raspberry Awards people found out and
they withdrew it immediately with an apology. My context, we began to understand
what was really going on, and I just read that he is now nonverbal.
Bruce Willis is nonverbal. He may be understanding what you're saying, but
he cannot articulate anything with language verbally. And it just breaks the heart.
And I thought, well, you know, if my death whenever that is,
and I don't really fear death, but the process of dying does give
me pause. The process of suffering gives us all pause. Nobody wants to
suffer the idea of not being me, of having some kind of condition where
I no longer exhibit the characteristics, the traits, the personality. I don't
have the memories to draw upon. I am not seth anymore. I've become
a shell or even someone else. That is scary. That's scary. What
I was telling Natalie was like, let's say I was diagnosed with something and
this is it. Who would give the eulogy at my memorial? I think
I would want a memorial? What would I do? And I just I
do not know. I wouldn't saddle Natalie with that. I wouldn't burden her.
No, I need you to go on stage and speak about me after
losing your husband. I mean, she would do it, certainly, because
she is the most beautiful person I know, and I know her heart,
and she may speak. But I just wouldn't do that. So would I
do it myself? I thought, you know what, if I was still
lucid and still able to use all my faculties what I knowing it was coming
even a year or year and a half later, would I pre record my
own eulogy and say, hey, everybody, I didn't want to burden anybody
or I didn't trust a preacher to give this eulogy. So here I am
thanks for coming, and then for twenty minutes via recorded video, I would
just communicate with the attendees and say all the things that I wish would be
said at a memorial in my name. I would tell my wife that she
has been my whole heart, and I would thank her and her children.
I would talk about the journey of my life, which has been a roller
coaster and ultimately a wonderful one. I'd talk about the privilege of having you
in my life and doing what I care about, and being able to do
full time activism that speaks to my values to try to build a better world,
and you know, my tennis community. I talk about some of the
stuff that we had done together. I'd tell jokes, i would share anecdotes.
I would I just take people on the ride, and then I would
say it's time for you to leave, go and get on with your lives,
because life. Life is short and precious. That's tempting. I don't
know or who would you have give my eulogy? Who would you have give
you r eulogy? If you had to have that conversation. Do you hear
about that one woman who they handed out brochures at her funeral and they all
had the imprint of a Ouiji board with the words keep in touch. I
would be tempted to do that. Can you imagine the evangelicals at my funeral
and they get that, Oh, it's a Oiji board, keep in touch,
talk to you soon. There was somebody who said that there was a
joke where an auto text went out to everybody right after the funeral service was
over from the number of the deceased, from their personal number, and it
said thanks for coming. Humor I think is an important part of life celebrations.
We grieve, and I think we often grieve naturally and in healthy ways,
using ritual, using each other, connecting, crying, sharing, maybe
being silent, taking time. I don't know everybody grieves in a different way,
but I think if you're going to celebrate somebody's life, there needs to
be some joy and humor and affection. You know, there needs to be
a little bit of levity in there. Have you heard of the process of
extreme embalming. There are apparently funeral homes who will do like embalming two point
zero extra embalming so that the deceased can be handed over to you and then
you can pose them. You have a party at your house. I am
not making this up. They have a party away, a celebration, memorial,
whatever they want to call it. And they put you in a chair
or something in the corner. He dress you in your favorite T shirt and
tennis shoes, put a hat on you, sunglasses some people did sunglasses,
and they put you in the corner and then everybody comes over and they have
a little party for you. I saw one guy. He was embalmed.
I guess he was a football player. They put him in a football jersey
and a helmet dead. He was dead, and they had him in the
room, and that for them was a satisfying send off. Hey, we're
not going to have a party without you. Can you imagine? I looked
this up quickly. There's someone who is embalmed and posed in front of his
Xbox and they put an Xbox controller in his embalmed hands, sunglasses on his
face, and he looks like he fell asleep playing video games. Another guy
was a Green Lantern fan. They posed him in a Green Lantern superhero costume.
They will place you at a dinner table and have a meal. I
am not kidding. I would never tell someone not to do it. I
mean, if it works for you, you know. But I don't think
I could. I don't think I could eat a meal with an embalmed body
sitting next to me. I don't know. Could you do it? Sorry?
Bizarre digression? My fault? Is it? Norma? At four seven
nine, I said, this is Norma. I wanted to tell you a
humorous story about my sister and I when we were very small. I was
seven, she was eight, and my grandmother's sister, Aunt Lucy, was
a drunk. We all knew she was a drunk, and she was one
of those kind of drunks that were just nasty and mean. And so one
fine day she on her car and then into an embankment and killed herself.
And my mother made us go to this funeral, and we were sitting there
in our little dresses and our patent shoes. This is the late sixties,
and the preacher was going on and on about what a wonderful lady Aunt Lucy
was and what a good Christian she was, and how everybody loved Aunt Lucy
and my sister and I were looking at each other, and finally my sister
leaned across me and poked my mom and said, why is he saying all
that stuff about Aunt Lucy? And my mother shushed her and you know,
don't, don't say anything, Ambique. And so we just kind of rolled
our eyes and kind of went with it and rocked the clock forward a few
months, we're on a fishing trip and we're coming back down a dirt road
getting close to our house, and this idiot in this little bitty cards comes
tearing by us like a lunatic, throwing gravel all over the place, almost
ran my dad off the road. Mother said, look at that idiot.
We're going to find him up this road a little while up in a ditch,
upside down, dead, And my sister never missed a beat. Yeah,
and the preachers stand up there and talk about what a good boy he
was. Already she was on to him, Oh yeah, out of the
mouths of babes. Absolutely well. We don't have any filters, so we
didn't call it like we saw it. You know. My mother almost choked
the death laughing so hard, but I'm like, you know, we saw
this, and we were just kids and everybody else just wit with it.
So I think we can all learn a lesson from her. Yeah, heavy
conversation today, but I thought you might use a little liberty. I appreciate
that so much. Norma, thanks for calling. Hang in there, Sure
you too. Thanks. I'll tell you something that needs to go away.
When somebody says, why are you speaking ill of the dead? I remember
when Jerry Folwell died, right, Jerry Folwell of the Moral Majority. He
was an antique bigot, He was a conspiracy theorist, he was a Christian
nationalist, and he was just not a good person and he died. Christopher
Hitchins went on Fox News and he was roasted. I think he was on
Shawn and was it Hannity and Colmes back when Sean Hannity and Alan Combs had
that sort of a crossfire format, and hitch was there, and I think
he said forgive me them, drawing it from memory, I know he said
it at some point where Jerry Folwell was so full of shit that had you
given him an enema, you could have buried the rest of him in a
matchbox, which is really true. But you know he went after Fallwell and
mother Teresa after her death and others, and one of the protests on that
show and elsewhere was he's gone, his family's grieving. Why would you say
such things about him? Why isn't this a moment of reverence? And why
can't you at least sit on your hands and be quiet, respectful as other
people go through their pain? What's wrong with you? I've mentioned people that
we have known who were terrible people, you know, terrible people, abusive
or lazy, or they were cruel or whatever, terrible people and something happened
and they passed away, and I would say, boy, they were a
terrible, lousy human being, right, they were just taken up air?
Like what was the net positive having them in our lives? And the response
is, oh, you know, they're gone. I mean, don't mind
me just talking to me. Just let it go. Don't speak ill of
the dead. And I don't understand that. Why does not existing mean that
we whitewash your deeds when you were alive? Do you get some sort of
a reputation rehab? Is that a default? Isn't that lying to ourselves?
Why not be honest? They were a shitty human being when they were alive,
which I guess is the only way you could be like, you wouldn't
be a shitty human being a few dead. I'm sorry. I had a
conversation about my phrasing and an apology from me for it. We will speak
more of the dead and remembering the Dead coming up in just a second.
Of course, this show is my first love, this community is my primary
focus. But I sure have enjoyed my second podcast, True Stories with Seth
Andrews. We just broke two hundred shows a couple of weeks ago, and
the response has been good and I would hope you would enjoy it. You
can subscribe on all major podcast apps, just search for it. True Stories
with Seth Andrews Noah at nine to five Are you there? Hi? Yeah?
Talking about funerals and memorials and those who hijack them. What's your perspective.
I had one of my closest friends die like about a year close to
two years ago, and I just I just remember being at the service and
something that really caught me off guard when the pastor passed. I can't remember
exactly what the term was, but he said something like young men being taken
from us earlier, like this isn't a part of God's plan, and I
it just really struck me because I'm like, that's not how this works,
right, Like that's not how your God works, and I it's it's just
something that really bothered me along with the normal like taking things out of our
own hands, like our accomplishments or the good things that happened, and like
the pausemative impact that this person has made on the world, and just kind
of like, oh, look what God let him do. And then out
of what he took him away for no reason or apparently didn't. I don't
know if I'm not exactly tracking. Is he saying that God didn't want him
to die? It was out of God's will? But God could not intervene.
That's what I am taking from it is that it's not a part of
his plan. But how is anything not a part of God's plan? Because
doesn't he control everything? Maybe it was playing into that hole. It's a
fallen world. You know, God would like to intervene, but we have
restrained him because we are so wicked. Did you see the brand new nightmare
of a speaker of the house Mike Johnson after this most recent shooting mass shooting,
and what did he do? Well? First of his thoughts and prayers,
and then somebody went back through the archives and he was talking about how
it's it's because of the teaching of evolution and feminism, and there was something
else. Remember when Jerry Folwell and Pat Robertson were blaming LGBT people for nine
eleven omnipotent, all powerful God who can do everything, won't or can't do
anything because we're disobedient children. So he's going to sit in the corner while
his children get the shit kicked out of him, because that's how we're going
to learn a little lesson anyway, Sorry for my tangent there, noah,
No, no, of course that. Yeah, I just kind of did
forget about that aspect of how they just push it off onto us, as
if he didn't create us broken or you know, apparently create us broken to
follow rules he knew we wouldn't be able to live up to, etc.
Yeah, it used to say we are created sick and commanded to be well.
Makes no sense. Yeah, noah, thanks for calling. I appreciate
you. Yeah, thank you. Take care as I must soon draw to
a close. Let me fulfill my promise here and read why you want a
physicist to speak at your funeral. It's just a few paragraphs, but let
me read it for you. It comes from a transcript of a speech given
by writer and performer Aaron Freeman on NPR news is All Things Considered. It
says this, You want a physicist to speak at your funeral. You want
the physicist to talk to your grieving family about the conservation of energy, so
they will understand that your energy has not died. You want the physicist to
remind your sobbing mother about the first law of thermodynamics, that no energy is
created in the universe and none is destroyed. You want your mother to know
that all your energy, every vibration, every btu of heat, every wave
of every particle that was her beloved child, remains with her in this world.
You want the physicist to tell your weeping father that, amid the energies
of the cosmos, you gave as good as you got, and at one
point you'd hope that the physicist would step down from the pulpit and walk to
your broken hearted spouse there in the pew and tell him that all of the
photons that ever bounced off your face, all the particles whose paths were interrupted
by your smile, by the touch of your hair. Hundreds of trillions of
particles have raced off you like children, their ways forever changed by you.
And as your widow rocks in the arms of a loving family, May the
physicist let her know that all the photons that bounced from you were gathered in
the particle detectors that are her eyes, that those photons created within her constellations
of electro magnetically charged neurons, whose energy will go on forever. And the
physicist will remind the congregation of how much all our energy is given off as
heat. There may be a few fanning themselves with their programs as he says
it, and he will tell them that the warmth that flowed through you in
life is still here, still part of all that we are, even as
we who morn continue in the heat of our own lives. And you'll want
the physicists to explain to those who loved you that they need not have faith,
indeed they should not have faith. Let them know that they can measure
that scientists have measured precisely the conservation of energy and found it accurate, verifiable,
and consistent across space and time. You can hope your family will examine
the evidence and satisfy themselves that the science is sound, and that they'll be
comforted to know your energy is still around. According to the law of the
conservation of energy, not a bit of you is gone. You're just less
orderly, Amen, and that is what I will leave you with today.
Thank you so much for calling, and for listening and being a part of
this interesting, sometimes heavy, sometimes humorous conversation as we talk about life and
death together. Take care, and I'll see you back here next time.
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