1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:08,839 We understand the thinking atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol, 2 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:13,759 an idea. The population of atheists this country is going through the rule, 3 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:19,839 rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If I tell the truth, 4 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,800 it's because I tell the truth, not because I put my hand on 5 00:00:23,839 --> 00:00:28,839 a book and made a wish and working together for a more rational world. 6 00:00:29,079 --> 00:00:33,200 Take the risk of thinking, feel so much more happiness. Truth Usian wisdom 7 00:00:33,359 --> 00:00:40,320 will come to you that way. Assume nothing, question everything, and start 8 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:56,560 thinking. This is the Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews. Hey, 9 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,439 beautiful people, So glad you're here. I just had something on my mind, 10 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,760 and I thought maybe i'd wrap a show around it. Hopefully I'm not 11 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:10,760 guilty of the very thing that I am concerned about, the thing that I'm 12 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,799 going to be exploring on the show. I don't think so. I don't 13 00:01:14,799 --> 00:01:17,760 think so. But you know, when something happens in your personal life, 14 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:21,200 you, I don't know, you want to express it and talk about it, 15 00:01:21,239 --> 00:01:23,079 and I don't have a lot of people here I can really talk about 16 00:01:23,079 --> 00:01:30,040 it with, so I'm talking to you. Terrible tragedy a friend of mine 17 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:34,400 on my tennis team his daughter. Fifteen year old daughter was just in a 18 00:01:34,519 --> 00:01:41,359 terrible car accident that she was killed, and the funeral was at a church. 19 00:01:41,439 --> 00:01:45,879 There were Christian family heavily wired in, and so I joined so many 20 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,879 other people to attend the funeral. And I had some people ask me, 21 00:01:49,959 --> 00:01:53,079 well, why would you do that, Why would you go to a church? 22 00:01:53,439 --> 00:01:56,560 How do you even enter a church? This is a religious exercise, 23 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,200 And I replied, well, it's not really about me, right, I'm 24 00:02:01,239 --> 00:02:07,359 going to express love and support. I'm here for you. What can we 25 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:08,919 do. I want you to see my face and know that I care. 26 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:15,840 So it's not really about me walking in and so boxing about the fact that 27 00:02:15,159 --> 00:02:21,560 I don't believe that there was a God in control, etc. It's more 28 00:02:21,599 --> 00:02:25,400 about being a humanist, being a human being, demonstrating compassion, saying I'm 29 00:02:25,439 --> 00:02:30,680 bigger than our theological disagreements. I mean, it sounds noble when I say 30 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:32,280 it that way, but I just that's how I phrase it, Okay. 31 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:38,000 And I was there and it was tremendously sad. It's just it's a horrible 32 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:42,800 thing, the loss of a child. I just can't even imagine how you 33 00:02:42,879 --> 00:02:46,159 deal, how you cope and I'm sure there were people in the audience who 34 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:50,919 have stories of their own journeys through and I'm sure that journey continues every single 35 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:55,759 day. But I was sitting there and it was an hour and forty five 36 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:04,000 minutes. The service started with thirty minutes of praise and worship music, and 37 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,240 it was that typical sort of integrity music, hillsong stuff, you know, 38 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:16,199 that homogenized you alone are worthy. Yes, we love you Jesus even though 39 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:21,280 we are in sex. You're my God. It was all that kind of 40 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,680 thing. But apparently these were her favorite songs or some of them. Okay, 41 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:30,080 fine. The funerals about her first pastor comes out, to his credit, 42 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:35,319 he talks some about Jesus and her faith, but he talked a lot 43 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,439 about who she was, and I think that's critical. It's often missing. 44 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:43,919 We've all seen those funerals, and I want to hear your stories where you 45 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,840 know, somebody comes out at a funeral and they don't talk about the deceased. 46 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:52,520 They're busy selling their gods. My father's funeral and he was a devout, 47 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:57,360 devout, devout Christian, but I was so frustrated because while I expect 48 00:03:57,439 --> 00:04:00,319 and I guess it's appropriate because this was who he was that they say, 49 00:04:00,319 --> 00:04:03,560 he's a man who loved Jesus. He loved Jesus, he loved the Lord, 50 00:04:03,599 --> 00:04:06,000 he loved the Lord. He was he just do you know? Blah 51 00:04:06,039 --> 00:04:10,800 blah blah. But there was so much of it that nobody was talking about 52 00:04:10,879 --> 00:04:15,159 him. Who was he, what was his personality like, what were his 53 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:19,399 interests? Where did he travel, what experiences did he have? Give me 54 00:04:19,439 --> 00:04:24,279 an anecdote some of his jokes that he used to tell over dinner, What 55 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:28,439 were his favorite foods at dinner? The things that you carry with you in 56 00:04:28,519 --> 00:04:30,560 memory, those were missing. In fact, it was me, and I 57 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,199 can't believe they actually gave me a few minutes behind the microphone, given our 58 00:04:34,319 --> 00:04:39,920 history, but they did. It was me going up there and saying, 59 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:44,120 this is what he was like, and I remember this when we had did 60 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:46,240 this and he did that, and now remember what he wore, and now 61 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,439 remember this quirk that he had. And it was very personal. But it 62 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:58,240 took the atheist to go up there and describe the man. To their credit, 63 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:03,360 at this funeral, they described and honored this young girl. There was 64 00:05:03,399 --> 00:05:12,160 a slideshow with images and then there was a second preacher and he came up, 65 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:17,079 and he was much more overt. Now, the cynic says, they 66 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:23,680 are preying on people at a time of intense vulnerability, and those things do 67 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:30,600 happen, but often the skeptic misses the reality that in Christian churches and Christian 68 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:35,879 cultures, these things are said and done with absolute sincerity and a desire to 69 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:43,879 be good. He came forward, and he genuinely believed that she would have 70 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,000 wanted something good to come out of her death, and he began to talk 71 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:51,680 about her love for Jesus and how she would not want anyone to miss heaven. 72 00:05:53,519 --> 00:05:58,680 And did I start to sit forward in my chair a little bit that 73 00:05:58,759 --> 00:06:03,399 I start to vibrate a little bit, Yeah, okay, But I also 74 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:08,879 saw this almost like you would see. It's in a laboratory where I was 75 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,000 in the faith years ago, when I would be there, you know, 76 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:16,040 thinking about reuniting with her in heaven and we'll all be at this happy place 77 00:06:16,079 --> 00:06:19,160 where there is no pain, there are no car accidents, there's only going 78 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:23,600 to be joy. It's going to be amazing. And I would have been 79 00:06:23,639 --> 00:06:27,000 thinking about that. It would have been a balm to my grief in that 80 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:34,000 way. But now I really became interested in how human beings have long created 81 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:44,360 the mechanisms for their coping right we are faced with the unthinkable. How natural 82 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:48,800 is it that so often we grabbed the first pencil we see, or the 83 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:54,519 one that has been put in our hand, and we draw the happy ending. 84 00:06:56,399 --> 00:07:03,319 We create the mechanism for dealing with this. I understand the appeal. 85 00:07:03,959 --> 00:07:10,040 All things work together for good to those who love God and are called according 86 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:14,360 to his purpose. The Lord works in mysterious ways. The pastor said, 87 00:07:14,399 --> 00:07:17,279 she was given to us for a time, and in his timing he drew 88 00:07:17,399 --> 00:07:21,839 her home. But one day we will be together, and we should be 89 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:27,720 thankful for the gift of her life the time we did have. What a 90 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:35,279 blessing, What a blessing. The rationalist in me is just kicking God's master 91 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:40,399 plan, even if you only wanted her on earth for fifteen years, which 92 00:07:40,439 --> 00:07:44,879 is sadism. By the way, you give the gift of a baby girl 93 00:07:44,959 --> 00:07:48,639 to a mother and father and they raise her to her teen years, there 94 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:55,160 is a familial love and bond that cannot be described in language. And then, 95 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:59,920 just because what God needed another angel in heaven, he pulls the plug. 96 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:05,720 He strips this daughter away from a parent. Nobody at the church service. 97 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,240 I don't know. Maybe somebody was thinking about that, like why what 98 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:13,439 father would do that? And what was his method? Did he show up 99 00:08:15,199 --> 00:08:18,600 and the family's all in the house, and Jesus says, all right, 100 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:22,040 you won't understand my reasons, but I want to draw this young lady back 101 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:26,680 into heaven and she will be waiting for you. And then peacefully he reaches 102 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:31,000 over and he lays a finger on her face or grabs her hand, and 103 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:35,519 she quietly, peacefully, without pain, goes to sleep. No. No, 104 00:08:35,639 --> 00:08:39,879 God's method is to have her body literally beaten to death inside a car, 105 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:48,759 a smashed, crushed car. But I understood why they were building this 106 00:08:48,919 --> 00:08:54,799 scenario where something good will come out of the pointless. There is a reason 107 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,080 for something that seems reason less. And then the music. I get that 108 00:08:58,279 --> 00:09:07,080 We've all really begun to understand brain chemistry. Communal music is therapy. Communal 109 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:15,960 music produces brain chemistry. It fires off those endorphins which are balming and calming 110 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:24,679 elements and bonding elements. They pull people together. It's the same phenomenon you 111 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:28,279 can get from music in another context, but when you see it in church, 112 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:33,519 grieving people all singing, raising hands. We understand this is therapy. 113 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,799 These are people trying to deal with pain, and I think that has to 114 00:09:37,799 --> 00:09:43,919 be approached with compassion. But then the pastor led a salvation prayer, and 115 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:52,159 this is where I start to really get pissed again. He's totally sincere. 116 00:09:52,159 --> 00:09:58,200 But sometimes the worst ideas are done with the best of intentions. I think 117 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:05,759 the family may have felt better knowing that maybe their daughter's death produced eternal life 118 00:10:05,799 --> 00:10:11,120 in people within the auditorium who said the salvation prayer. But we've all heard 119 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:13,799 this. There may be some people in this auditorium who came here today who 120 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:18,600 don't know. They haven't experienced the love of Jesus. They don't know what 121 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:24,440 it's like to know that when they die one day, they will not die, 122 00:10:24,519 --> 00:10:30,960 but they will enter eternity at the hand of God. If you're one 123 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:33,519 of those people, I want you to pray with me. Everybody, please 124 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:37,519 bow your heads, nobody looking around, nobody looking around, and you don't 125 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:41,279 have to say this prayer out loud, but I just want to pray with 126 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:46,919 you today. If you don't know the Lord Jesus today, pray this prayer 127 00:10:46,919 --> 00:10:54,799 with me. Dear Lord, I am a sinner. I'm unworthy. I 128 00:10:54,960 --> 00:11:00,919 was born without you, and I need to open up and let you in. 129 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:05,840 It was that kind of thing, and there was that kind of unworthiness. 130 00:11:05,879 --> 00:11:09,600 Jesus came and died because we're just so shitty. They didn't say it 131 00:11:09,639 --> 00:11:15,039 that way, but that's really the under It was a subtext. Lord. 132 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,399 I asked that you come in, and instead of it being all about me, 133 00:11:18,519 --> 00:11:24,720 it's you, not I. But Christ lives in me, and I 134 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:28,440 accept you. Please save me. I dedicate my life to you in Jesus' 135 00:11:28,519 --> 00:11:33,879 name. Amen, Now with nobody looking around, If you just said that 136 00:11:33,919 --> 00:11:37,679 prayer, I want you to raise your hand, raise it high so I 137 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:41,480 can see it. They're oh, look at those hands. I see those 138 00:11:41,519 --> 00:11:46,120 hands. Yes, so many hands. Thank you. You can put your 139 00:11:46,159 --> 00:11:54,200 hands down. Now. If you said that prayer and you don't have a 140 00:11:54,279 --> 00:11:58,799 church home, I want you to find somebody here, somebody on staff at 141 00:11:58,799 --> 00:12:03,120 this church. Tell them what just happened, and let us lead you through 142 00:12:03,159 --> 00:12:05,440 those first steps. And if you have a church, I want you to 143 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:09,360 find somebody there. When I was a devout Christian, this would have been 144 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:13,399 a beautiful thing. We knew a guy I remember when I was in high 145 00:12:13,399 --> 00:12:16,639 school. There was a guy and he was in a car accident. I 146 00:12:16,639 --> 00:12:22,279 think I was seventeen, and so was he. He was horribly killed. 147 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:26,879 People were devastated. The whole school was devastated. We attended the funeral, 148 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:31,480 but we heard a story there was somebody else in the car and they were 149 00:12:31,519 --> 00:12:37,600 traumatized by what had happened, and through it they came to a point where 150 00:12:37,639 --> 00:12:41,159 they were just devastated, looking for healing, They accepted Jesus and became a 151 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:46,200 Christian, and so that became the story. You know, the Lord took 152 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:50,399 him. But did you hear about Bobby over here or whatever his name was. 153 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,399 You know, he got saved. You know, maybe there's a master 154 00:12:54,480 --> 00:13:01,320 plan. Maybe maybe God used our light and momentary affliction to yates an eternal 155 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:05,559 glory that far out weighs them all his ways, not my ways. The 156 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:11,960 Lord is good. One hour and forty five minutes, I was a long 157 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:16,840 ass thing. So glad I went for the people I care about, But 158 00:13:16,879 --> 00:13:24,240 it was hard to listen to. Now we can talk about whether or not 159 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:30,679 it's healthy or unhealthy to tell ourselves these stories in order to cope with the 160 00:13:30,799 --> 00:13:35,799 unthinkable. And I do think that people need to be approached with compassion when 161 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:41,960 they tell the stories of heaven and reuniting with those they've lost. Certainly when 162 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,720 it comes to the loss of a child, these people deserve our compassion, 163 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:54,039 but our desire to see them not in pain and their desire to navigate through 164 00:13:54,200 --> 00:14:01,200 somehow doesn't mean that any of this is true, doesn't mean that any of 165 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:07,480 it is healthy. I had some people on my page and they're like, 166 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:09,120 well, I wouldn't put up with any of that. I'd have got up 167 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:13,039 and walked out. Understand it. I get you. I understand what you're 168 00:14:13,039 --> 00:14:16,759 saying. I wouldn't have even walked into that church. After all, it 169 00:14:16,879 --> 00:14:20,320 is a church. Well, if you've been scarred by the church, I 170 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:26,960 get that, totally valid. Other people said they would have just they would 171 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:30,720 have just told the family, you know, I'm sorry for what happened to 172 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,360 you. But there's just you know, there's no evidence for anything that you're 173 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:41,600 saying. Whoa whoa WHOA time and place, right time and place that was 174 00:14:41,679 --> 00:14:46,320 the time for love and empathy and compassion and going up to someone in the 175 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:52,240 moment of unspeakable grief and saying your theology is bullshit is not empathy and love 176 00:14:52,279 --> 00:14:56,799 and compassion. And while those conversations should be had at some point, I 177 00:14:56,879 --> 00:15:01,200 just don't think they should be had in those days and in those moments. 178 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:05,279 I just don't buy it. What message do I send as an atheist by 179 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:09,440 attending and sitting in the auditorium and just being respectful. I don't have to 180 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:13,200 pray when they pray. If I bow my head, I don't close my 181 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,200 eyes. Maybe I don't even bow my head. I don't sing the songs. 182 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:20,759 But I'm there. I'm there in somebody else's context because I care about 183 00:15:20,799 --> 00:15:28,360 them as people. But it's frustrating. It's frustrating, and I find the 184 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:35,039 Salvation prayer especially frustrating. Now. The church, often for the best of 185 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:39,399 intentions, will find people that they're most raw, and they'll say, you 186 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:46,919 know what, We've got the medicine for you. You lost somebody, you're 187 00:15:46,919 --> 00:15:52,039 going through depression. You went through a terrible breakup or a divorce or whatever. 188 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:56,399 You know, you lost a relationship that you cared about. You were 189 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:03,000 fired from your job, You have of addiction recovery issues. You're navigating coming 190 00:16:03,039 --> 00:16:07,679 out of an addiction to a substance of some kind. You have been living 191 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,279 by yourself and you have no one, and here the doors open, and 192 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:15,279 people say always welcome, our doors are open, will be your family. 193 00:16:15,559 --> 00:16:21,360 Whatever they find you at that moment. And because they see it as part 194 00:16:21,399 --> 00:16:25,679 of their work as good people, they will say, hey, we're here, 195 00:16:26,159 --> 00:16:30,759 we have a ministry for you, we have people for you. But 196 00:16:30,799 --> 00:16:33,679 it's also and we have to be honest about it. It's also preying on 197 00:16:33,879 --> 00:16:41,360 those who are most susceptible in a time of real vulnerability. They're just they're 198 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:45,559 an open wound. They are in that moment, going to respond more quickly 199 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:52,200 to whatever you are selling. They are they are more apt to buy it. 200 00:16:55,919 --> 00:17:02,080 And then what they enter that cycle of heel is worthy. I am 201 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:07,839 not worthy, not me, but Christ lives in me. Jesus came to 202 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:12,960 forgive me because I have a sin nature. All of this communicating what the 203 00:17:14,039 --> 00:17:17,559 problem is me, it's victim blaming. So if I'm going through a breakup, 204 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:21,640 or I've had addiction problems, or if I'm depressed or going through some 205 00:17:21,759 --> 00:17:26,119 other life crisis, well it's because it's a fallen world. It's just sad. 206 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,599 It's you know, it's just the way human beings are. Fortunately, 207 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:33,000 Jesus came and he died on the cross. To fix it, all we 208 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:37,319 have to do is be essentially slaves to him for the rest of our lives. 209 00:17:40,759 --> 00:17:45,279 We've seen ritual, the power of ritual, and that was at play 210 00:17:45,319 --> 00:17:49,119 at the funeral as well. I mean we see structure helps us to frame 211 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:56,799 the human experience. That's why there are funeral rituals in cultures, religions, 212 00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:03,720 traditions worldwide, all kinds of death rituals that helped you mark the passing of 213 00:18:03,759 --> 00:18:08,519 someone to remember and then what they go off to some other place. Maybe 214 00:18:08,559 --> 00:18:14,720 they become an ancestor that you will one day live with in some other plane. 215 00:18:14,799 --> 00:18:18,319 Maybe they become a spirit. Maybe they visit you in the form of 216 00:18:18,759 --> 00:18:21,960 I don't know, signs, an animal or something. Maybe they come to 217 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,640 you in your dreams. They blend into the energy of the universe. How 218 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:30,680 many religious traditions, how many faith traditions have an after life scenario that is 219 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:40,119 framed in ritual where they say it ain't over totally understandable, it's the medicine 220 00:18:40,319 --> 00:18:45,200 we make for ourselves. But does that mean that what we're saying is true? 221 00:18:48,079 --> 00:18:52,160 Should we say, you know, there's no evidence that we'll see them 222 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,920 again, and I have to deal with that, but I had them, 223 00:18:57,799 --> 00:19:03,440 they were here. Life is random and unfair and occasionally shitty. Karma is 224 00:19:03,599 --> 00:19:10,640 total crap. Terrible things happen to wonderful people, and terrible people get away 225 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:17,480 with it. Every single day. I live a fragile, finite existence on 226 00:19:17,559 --> 00:19:22,359 this rock in a universe that doesn't care. And I understand that there is 227 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:26,680 no evidence for and after life. I accept that, but you know, 228 00:19:26,759 --> 00:19:30,400 I'm glad we were together. I'm glad I had the privilege of knowing this 229 00:19:30,519 --> 00:19:34,960 person and they and memory will live on in me and in the minds of 230 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:42,079 everyone whose life they touched. Isn't that a healthier way to deal with grief 231 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:49,039 and loss? No victim blaming, no original sin, no statements that we 232 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:55,200 are not worthy, no allegiances to someone that we will essentially have to be 233 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:59,119 a slave to for the rest of our life, and an urgency to live 234 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:04,359 now because there's no evidence of a heaven. We're not living for dying. 235 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:11,119 We're living. An hour and forty five minutes, I'll tell you I came 236 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:18,000 out. I actually recorded a rant about it, and then I walked away 237 00:20:18,039 --> 00:20:22,880 and came back and deleted the whole thing because it was a little bit too 238 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,839 hot, it was a little bit too much. I was kind of worked 239 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:32,920 up. But even now I feel like it's a conversation worth having because so 240 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:38,079 many people could relate to it. Can you relate to it? I'm sure 241 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:41,599 many people have a story. I would like to talk to you, and 242 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:48,119 I will start with area code nine zero one. Are you there, well, 243 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:52,759 Seth? What's your name? Colin? Colin? Thanks for calling? 244 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:59,000 What are your thoughts on the subject today? When I was a kid, 245 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:03,599 my childhood neighbor was pretty much a surrogate grandmother to us. She would watch 246 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,960 us when my parents had to work because my mom worked at a nursing home 247 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:11,240 overnight. My dad was a firefighter so for twenty four hour shifts, so 248 00:21:11,279 --> 00:21:15,079 she'd take care of us. She'd take us out to eat. She was 249 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,559 just always there for us. Our Christmas tradition, we'd wake up open presents 250 00:21:19,079 --> 00:21:23,480 and then go over to her house open presence there because we'd always get her 251 00:21:23,519 --> 00:21:30,359 presence and she would always wrap a bag of peanut Eminem's and about fifteen layers 252 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:34,920 of boxes and tissue paper to all of that. She was an absolute, 253 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:41,240 sweet, wonderful lady. She was a teacher her entire life, and her 254 00:21:41,279 --> 00:21:48,200 whole expression was teachers don't have kids, they raised them, so she never 255 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:52,640 had any kids. And when she ended up dying, she didn't have any 256 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:59,559 family at her funeral, and she wasn't really religious, but they hired a 257 00:21:59,599 --> 00:22:03,640 preacher because of her distant niece arranged the whole thing, and the preacher just 258 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:08,720 read the back of the funeral pamphlet that was basically just saying miss Wilma was 259 00:22:08,759 --> 00:22:12,799 a good lady. She loved her dogs, and she loved her pond. 260 00:22:14,759 --> 00:22:19,440 And she died and that was pretty much it. And this lady built an 261 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:25,880 entire backyard of a handdug six foot deep pond when she was in her sixties. 262 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:30,880 She was fucking incredible. But the only mention of her at her funeral 263 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:36,279 was the back of that pamphlet, summed up in under two minutes, and 264 00:22:36,319 --> 00:22:41,640 then there was forty five minutes of gospel preaching. She wasn't even fucking religious, 265 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:48,359 but that was her final sendoff. And I wish I had said something, 266 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,079 but I didn't want to because I just didn't want to rock the boat. 267 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:56,920 But fuck, it's it's fucking frustrating to see somebody that I loved my 268 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:02,519 entire life. I'm thirty one. She died about two three years ago, 269 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:07,720 and just to see her final sind off not even be about her, Like, 270 00:23:07,839 --> 00:23:14,359 what do you fucking do about that? It's hard when somebody hijacks somebody 271 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,319 else's life in that way? Did she ever attend church? When I was 272 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:23,200 a kid, I used to be super religious, and every Sunday I would 273 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,640 ask her if she went, And eventually she started saying she did. I 274 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,799 don't know if she ever did. She may have just said that to appease 275 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,240 me. I'm assuming she didn't go, but her niece arranged the whole funeral 276 00:23:34,319 --> 00:23:37,839 thing. The only thing that I think she did right was it instead of 277 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,319 burying her in a dress, they buried her in one of her little sweatshirts 278 00:23:41,319 --> 00:23:45,400 with a Boston Terrier on it. What would you have said had you been 279 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:51,400 given the microphone at that moment? I would have talked about how much she 280 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:55,920 loved her garden and how much she loved her pets, and she just liked 281 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,799 people, and she was always there for anybody that needed her. But she 282 00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:03,759 was that one of those happy, go lucky Yeah, I'm right here, 283 00:24:03,799 --> 00:24:07,519 I'm going to help you. It was a yeah, fine, I got 284 00:24:07,559 --> 00:24:10,519 you. You know, she wouldn't want to, but she still would because 285 00:24:10,519 --> 00:24:14,319 she loved you, and that's the kind of human we should all be. 286 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:19,359 And they never mentioned that. Well, you've given her a better eulogy here. 287 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,599 I'm sorry to hear the story, Cullen, but I appreciate you sharing 288 00:24:22,599 --> 00:24:26,960 it. Unfortunately, many can relate, but I think we also sort of 289 00:24:26,599 --> 00:24:32,519 can support each other in our frustrations and maybe we'll find some solutions if it 290 00:24:32,559 --> 00:24:37,079 happens again. Okay, okay, which is I wish we could take religion 291 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,839 at a funeral, stop making it about where they're going, and talk about 292 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,200 where they've been. I appreciate it, man, thanks for calling. Thank 293 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,640 you, sir. I have a great day. It sounds weird when I 294 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:55,920 say that if somebody was religious and wanted a religious send off, that's their 295 00:24:56,079 --> 00:25:03,920 prerogative. If somebody wants a religion funeral and they express that, then great, 296 00:25:03,559 --> 00:25:08,359 right their last wishes. I know that the memorials are for those left 297 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:12,240 behind, but I'll tell you this, when my time comes, I am 298 00:25:12,279 --> 00:25:18,480 going to determine the temperature of how I am memorialized, meaning I'm going to 299 00:25:18,519 --> 00:25:21,759 tell those who are running the show if I know it's coming, Actually, 300 00:25:21,799 --> 00:25:25,200 they already know how I feel. Don't you dare let this happen in a 301 00:25:25,279 --> 00:25:29,160 church. I do not want a pastor. I do not want religious prayers. 302 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,480 I do not want a theme about God. I certainly don't want religious 303 00:25:33,519 --> 00:25:40,799 relatives coming up and grabbing a microphone and doing an editorial about the black sheep, 304 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,480 the lost soul, the prodigal son. We wish she was in heaven. 305 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:45,920 Don't be like Seth. I mean, I don't know if that would 306 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:51,400 ever have. I'll set some parameters, and I do think that the memorial 307 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:56,960 service should represent those who passed on therefore those who are left. But it 308 00:25:56,079 --> 00:26:00,119 better reflect me, my life, my values, my attitude, my personality, 309 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,319 you know, or I will find a way to come back and haunt 310 00:26:03,759 --> 00:26:08,599 your ass. Relating to what he had said about this woman who was not 311 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:14,160 religious, but she ended up having a church service for a funeral against her 312 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:18,680 wishes, I'm sure. I used to be in corporate radio FM radio with 313 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:25,480 a guy and he was not religious. I'm telling you he never talked about 314 00:26:25,559 --> 00:26:27,200 God. I know he didn't go to church. He was kind of this 315 00:26:27,279 --> 00:26:30,240 hard living dude. But he was a real nice guy. Died of a 316 00:26:30,279 --> 00:26:34,279 heart attack too young, he was in his fifties. And I went to 317 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,240 the funeral. It was held in a church. I know it wasn't his 318 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,440 church. Maybe his name was scribbled on a roster because he visited, but 319 00:26:41,839 --> 00:26:45,400 he didn't go to church. And you know what the pastor talked about, 320 00:26:45,799 --> 00:26:48,839 Well, you know, he loved the Lord, and you know, you 321 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,319 always you didn't always see it out there when he was talking to you. 322 00:26:52,319 --> 00:26:55,759 You know, we didn't bring it up very often, but we know he 323 00:26:55,799 --> 00:26:59,200 was a good Christian. He loved him some Jesus. And I was sitting 324 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,599 in the pew when it was a few going that's a bunch of crap. 325 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,480 This is fiction. This is not what that guy. He wasn't like that 326 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,759 at all. And yet they tend to take this person's life and they air 327 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,400 brush it into something that looks more like the Lord. And I think that's 328 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:21,559 offensive. I mean, sure, yeah, the guy didn't go to church, 329 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:26,119 never mentioned out loud he was a Christian, didn't pray before meals, 330 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,839 didn't have a Bible, no, the Bible, didn't act in any way 331 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,440 religious in any aspect of his life. But he's with the Lord now, 332 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:41,559 because what when he was six he knelt down and said a prayer that his 333 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:47,119 parents wanted him to pray, and then he lived a totally non Christian life, 334 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:52,519 and then they spend all this I think that pastor had I think he 335 00:27:52,559 --> 00:27:56,279 did a salvation prayer too, you know, I think he said, we 336 00:27:56,279 --> 00:28:02,640 hold to a Christian faith here and we'd hate to see anybody miss out on 337 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,200 the heaven that he is now enjoying him is the same stuff, same stuff. 338 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,119 Anyway, I've got to take a break. We have so many people 339 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:19,759 cueued up wanting to talk about this topic. We will continue next. My 340 00:28:19,839 --> 00:28:25,480 patrons help me to do what I do, and if you are not a 341 00:28:25,559 --> 00:28:27,720 patron, let me encourage you. Just a few bucks a month makes a 342 00:28:27,839 --> 00:28:34,200 real difference. You get the show early and commercial freepatreon dot com slash Seth 343 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:42,200 Andrews, Bethany, thanks for waiting. Are you there, Hi, Seth? 344 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,319 How's it going? I'm well, what's on your mind? Bethany? 345 00:28:45,359 --> 00:28:52,240 What's your perspective? So I had this similar type of experience this past July, 346 00:28:52,759 --> 00:28:56,079 well twenty twenty two. I had traveled to Madison, Wisconsin for my 347 00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:00,799 grandfather because it took a while for us to even get the funeral schedule. 348 00:29:00,519 --> 00:29:06,519 Thought it was going to be pretty basic eulogy. He had this life. 349 00:29:06,759 --> 00:29:11,119 He was a machinist kind of more of a celebration of life type of ceremony, 350 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:17,240 and my uncle, with my mom's brother, the oldest son of the 351 00:29:17,279 --> 00:29:21,160 family, decided he was going to be doing the eulogy, and unbeknownst to 352 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:27,839 me, it turned into a massive sermon, diatribe, altar, call Jesus, 353 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:37,119 Romans Corinthians. It was horrific and I had that was probably my second 354 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:44,119 funeral that was like full blown Christian type of preachy things since I've converted as 355 00:29:44,119 --> 00:29:48,759 an atheist. And I was so mad. I didn't realize. I didn't 356 00:29:48,759 --> 00:29:52,839 even realize this was happening to me in the moment until I was picking at 357 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,680 the grass because it was outside. I was I was pulling at the grass 358 00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:00,599 so hard because I was so furious, like I could not function, and 359 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,359 I was just sitting there just like, Okay, this is just who they 360 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,720 are, but like, what is happening right now? And it was It 361 00:30:07,759 --> 00:30:10,160 was bananas. And I asked my mom about it later, I said, 362 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:11,920 did you know he was gonna do that well, he wasn't supposed to go 363 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,119 into all that at the funeral. It was a little heavy and like you 364 00:30:15,279 --> 00:30:19,920 think, because two of us were atheists in that crowd. So they just 365 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:26,960 ambushed everybody and excused it because this is what the Lord would have wanted. 366 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,319 You know. Probably my mom denies, like, oh, yeah, this 367 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,640 is a chance to like, let's just preach out, because your family probably 368 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,400 too when you growing up. Oh isn't this a great chance? Everybody heard 369 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,400 the word and the plan of salvation, So now everyone doesn't have any excuse 370 00:30:41,519 --> 00:30:45,920 when they stand before God one day. Excuse me? What? Yeah, 371 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,799 that's not even passive aggressive, that's just aggressive. That's a threat. Now 372 00:30:49,839 --> 00:30:56,079 you're on the hook except or reject. The choice is yours. Yep. 373 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,400 And I was like, you know, I don't care for your version of 374 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,400 substitutionary atonement. I don't. I don't care. Go wash off the grass. 375 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,240 Stanes Tega deep breath, Thanks for sharing this and hang in there. 376 00:31:07,279 --> 00:31:15,440 Okay, absolutely, thank you so much. You later six zero five? 377 00:31:15,279 --> 00:31:19,799 Is it Rachel? Yes, it is hi, Rachel. What's your experience? 378 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:26,640 You want to talk about her? I've just immediately I saw your live 379 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,359 I'm like, oh, I have to call a couple of years back. 380 00:31:30,039 --> 00:31:33,480 I grew up in a very like an evangelical Word of Faith church, and 381 00:31:33,559 --> 00:31:37,240 there were several families that we were all very close to, and our whole 382 00:31:37,319 --> 00:31:41,119 life was the church, right Like, we spent a lot of time there. 383 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:45,079 Our parents were all either in like music ministry or children's church. So 384 00:31:45,759 --> 00:31:49,759 the pastors and everyone, we all knew each other very well. Well. 385 00:31:49,799 --> 00:31:53,839 Sadly, one of the friends, like in this group, she was closer 386 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:59,319 to my brother's age, passed away do it to a drunk driving accident. 387 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:05,160 She was like twenty two, very vibrant, beautiful, intelligent, just social 388 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:09,599 person, and so you can imagine it was a surprise to everyone. We'll 389 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:16,359 get to this funeral and the place is packed and it's very emotional. And 390 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,200 I thought, you know, thinking, like these pastors grew up with her, 391 00:32:20,319 --> 00:32:24,680 like we all know each other really well, I'm expecting to hear some 392 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:30,319 heartfelt stories about her and her life and her as a child growing up here. 393 00:32:30,599 --> 00:32:35,759 And I think the only anecdote they added outside of just reading the back 394 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:42,039 of her pamphlet was how close she was, you know, reigniting her relationship 395 00:32:42,119 --> 00:32:47,640 with God. It was so insulting and so hurtful, especially since you know 396 00:32:49,279 --> 00:32:53,599 they should have known something. But the whole service was about Jesus and coming 397 00:32:53,599 --> 00:32:58,599 to Christ and at one point, you know, making I believe the point 398 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,200 of this was to say that, like, this earthly life doesn't matter, 399 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:07,400 which is messy all in itself. But it was starting to talk about the 400 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,000 story of Lazarus, and I think there was just a cold chill that ran 401 00:33:10,119 --> 00:33:15,079 through the room, like are you going to try to resurrect her Lazarus? 402 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:24,119 Yeah? I was just like dumbfounded. Wow, did you fantasize about going 403 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:28,319 up there and giving a better eulogy? Because I've done that when I've heard 404 00:33:28,319 --> 00:33:31,799 somebody who has been going on and on waving the Bible, I have fantasized 405 00:33:31,839 --> 00:33:37,039 about shutting their microphone off and marching up to the front and saying, all 406 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,519 right, everybody, we're going to talk about Karen or whoever. I mean, 407 00:33:40,559 --> 00:33:45,240 do you fantasize about doing that? I think it was more of an 408 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:51,039 angry fantasy of being like, go sit down, sir, you should know 409 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:55,200 better. The one who's dedicated so much of their life to this poor preachers 410 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:59,640 suddenly mute. You know, he can't speak it's like that scene in the 411 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,680 Matrix squere Neo's mouth disappeared. It's oh, it's too bad for you. 412 00:34:02,759 --> 00:34:07,759 I guess we'll have to do it differently. Rachel, thank you for sharing 413 00:34:07,799 --> 00:34:10,480 your story and thank you for calling. I appreciate you. Thank you. 414 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,320 I'm going to read for you when we're almost done. Here a beautiful piece 415 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:21,760 that was brought to my attention. This has been a few years. It's 416 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:28,679 called you want a Physicist to Speak at your Funeral? And I thought it 417 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:30,480 was really good someone to read it for you here in just a little bit. 418 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:38,280 I told Natalie Wants that if I knew it was coming, like I 419 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:43,800 had just I've recently been reading about the tragic story of Bruce Willis, the 420 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:51,199 movie star, and he has a horrible disease, a kind of dementia that 421 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:58,920 is just robbing him of who he is. And he had been starring in 422 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:04,519 these really, really bad sort of indie movies. They paid him a million 423 00:35:04,559 --> 00:35:07,760 bucks. He stood on screen for about four minutes, he did some non 424 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:13,880 acting, and people were like, what the hell is going on? Bruce 425 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,599 Willis is starring in all these crap movies? Is he just cashing in? 426 00:35:16,639 --> 00:35:22,280 He's taken a check. The Raspberry Awards, which is the antithesis of the 427 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,280 Academy Awards, gave him a Razzie for the Worst Actor, and we were 428 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:29,440 all thinking, God, he's just he just fill in his pockets. He's 429 00:35:29,519 --> 00:35:32,199 lazy, right, I remember. There were a lot of conversations along those 430 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:37,440 lines, and then we heard about the fact that Snow he had a disease 431 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:43,400 and he was taking work that would allow him to pretty much stand in one 432 00:35:43,519 --> 00:35:47,559 place and say a few lines which likely had to be recited for him, 433 00:35:47,559 --> 00:35:52,400 and he would repeat them back. And he was doing what he could because 434 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:59,519 he had a terrible fatal disease. And the Raspberry Awards people found out and 435 00:35:59,559 --> 00:36:04,320 they withdrew it immediately with an apology. My context, we began to understand 436 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,800 what was really going on, and I just read that he is now nonverbal. 437 00:36:08,039 --> 00:36:14,119 Bruce Willis is nonverbal. He may be understanding what you're saying, but 438 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,559 he cannot articulate anything with language verbally. And it just breaks the heart. 439 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,119 And I thought, well, you know, if my death whenever that is, 440 00:36:22,159 --> 00:36:25,960 and I don't really fear death, but the process of dying does give 441 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,159 me pause. The process of suffering gives us all pause. Nobody wants to 442 00:36:30,199 --> 00:36:37,199 suffer the idea of not being me, of having some kind of condition where 443 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:43,840 I no longer exhibit the characteristics, the traits, the personality. I don't 444 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:49,159 have the memories to draw upon. I am not seth anymore. I've become 445 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:54,480 a shell or even someone else. That is scary. That's scary. What 446 00:36:54,519 --> 00:36:59,400 I was telling Natalie was like, let's say I was diagnosed with something and 447 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:05,760 this is it. Who would give the eulogy at my memorial? I think 448 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:10,159 I would want a memorial? What would I do? And I just I 449 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:15,519 do not know. I wouldn't saddle Natalie with that. I wouldn't burden her. 450 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,960 No, I need you to go on stage and speak about me after 451 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,599 losing your husband. I mean, she would do it, certainly, because 452 00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:27,039 she is the most beautiful person I know, and I know her heart, 453 00:37:27,119 --> 00:37:30,599 and she may speak. But I just wouldn't do that. So would I 454 00:37:30,679 --> 00:37:35,719 do it myself? I thought, you know what, if I was still 455 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:40,639 lucid and still able to use all my faculties what I knowing it was coming 456 00:37:40,679 --> 00:37:45,119 even a year or year and a half later, would I pre record my 457 00:37:45,199 --> 00:37:49,280 own eulogy and say, hey, everybody, I didn't want to burden anybody 458 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,559 or I didn't trust a preacher to give this eulogy. So here I am 459 00:37:52,679 --> 00:37:57,920 thanks for coming, and then for twenty minutes via recorded video, I would 460 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:02,199 just communicate with the attendees and say all the things that I wish would be 461 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:08,440 said at a memorial in my name. I would tell my wife that she 462 00:38:08,599 --> 00:38:14,000 has been my whole heart, and I would thank her and her children. 463 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:20,000 I would talk about the journey of my life, which has been a roller 464 00:38:20,039 --> 00:38:24,519 coaster and ultimately a wonderful one. I'd talk about the privilege of having you 465 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:30,440 in my life and doing what I care about, and being able to do 466 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:37,480 full time activism that speaks to my values to try to build a better world, 467 00:38:37,599 --> 00:38:40,400 and you know, my tennis community. I talk about some of the 468 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:46,320 stuff that we had done together. I'd tell jokes, i would share anecdotes. 469 00:38:46,599 --> 00:38:51,760 I would I just take people on the ride, and then I would 470 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:59,320 say it's time for you to leave, go and get on with your lives, 471 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:05,280 because life. Life is short and precious. That's tempting. I don't 472 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,239 know or who would you have give my eulogy? Who would you have give 473 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:12,519 you r eulogy? If you had to have that conversation. Do you hear 474 00:39:12,559 --> 00:39:17,480 about that one woman who they handed out brochures at her funeral and they all 475 00:39:17,559 --> 00:39:25,280 had the imprint of a Ouiji board with the words keep in touch. I 476 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:30,880 would be tempted to do that. Can you imagine the evangelicals at my funeral 477 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:34,719 and they get that, Oh, it's a Oiji board, keep in touch, 478 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,360 talk to you soon. There was somebody who said that there was a 479 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:44,400 joke where an auto text went out to everybody right after the funeral service was 480 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:49,239 over from the number of the deceased, from their personal number, and it 481 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:55,400 said thanks for coming. Humor I think is an important part of life celebrations. 482 00:39:55,760 --> 00:40:00,760 We grieve, and I think we often grieve naturally and in healthy ways, 483 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:07,719 using ritual, using each other, connecting, crying, sharing, maybe 484 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,760 being silent, taking time. I don't know everybody grieves in a different way, 485 00:40:12,159 --> 00:40:14,840 but I think if you're going to celebrate somebody's life, there needs to 486 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,519 be some joy and humor and affection. You know, there needs to be 487 00:40:17,599 --> 00:40:22,960 a little bit of levity in there. Have you heard of the process of 488 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:32,760 extreme embalming. There are apparently funeral homes who will do like embalming two point 489 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:42,239 zero extra embalming so that the deceased can be handed over to you and then 490 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:46,639 you can pose them. You have a party at your house. I am 491 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:52,719 not making this up. They have a party away, a celebration, memorial, 492 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:57,239 whatever they want to call it. And they put you in a chair 493 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:00,599 or something in the corner. He dress you in your favorite T shirt and 494 00:41:00,639 --> 00:41:05,760 tennis shoes, put a hat on you, sunglasses some people did sunglasses, 495 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:07,639 and they put you in the corner and then everybody comes over and they have 496 00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:12,920 a little party for you. I saw one guy. He was embalmed. 497 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,159 I guess he was a football player. They put him in a football jersey 498 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:19,880 and a helmet dead. He was dead, and they had him in the 499 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:24,199 room, and that for them was a satisfying send off. Hey, we're 500 00:41:24,199 --> 00:41:31,440 not going to have a party without you. Can you imagine? I looked 501 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:37,119 this up quickly. There's someone who is embalmed and posed in front of his 502 00:41:37,639 --> 00:41:46,039 Xbox and they put an Xbox controller in his embalmed hands, sunglasses on his 503 00:41:46,159 --> 00:41:54,280 face, and he looks like he fell asleep playing video games. Another guy 504 00:41:54,480 --> 00:42:02,039 was a Green Lantern fan. They posed him in a Green Lantern superhero costume. 505 00:42:02,199 --> 00:42:07,559 They will place you at a dinner table and have a meal. I 506 00:42:07,599 --> 00:42:13,239 am not kidding. I would never tell someone not to do it. I 507 00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:17,039 mean, if it works for you, you know. But I don't think 508 00:42:17,079 --> 00:42:22,920 I could. I don't think I could eat a meal with an embalmed body 509 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:28,480 sitting next to me. I don't know. Could you do it? Sorry? 510 00:42:28,519 --> 00:42:32,960 Bizarre digression? My fault? Is it? Norma? At four seven 511 00:42:34,159 --> 00:42:37,440 nine, I said, this is Norma. I wanted to tell you a 512 00:42:37,519 --> 00:42:43,800 humorous story about my sister and I when we were very small. I was 513 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:49,079 seven, she was eight, and my grandmother's sister, Aunt Lucy, was 514 00:42:49,119 --> 00:42:52,880 a drunk. We all knew she was a drunk, and she was one 515 00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:58,599 of those kind of drunks that were just nasty and mean. And so one 516 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,880 fine day she on her car and then into an embankment and killed herself. 517 00:43:04,199 --> 00:43:07,239 And my mother made us go to this funeral, and we were sitting there 518 00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:09,440 in our little dresses and our patent shoes. This is the late sixties, 519 00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:15,880 and the preacher was going on and on about what a wonderful lady Aunt Lucy 520 00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:22,119 was and what a good Christian she was, and how everybody loved Aunt Lucy 521 00:43:22,159 --> 00:43:25,800 and my sister and I were looking at each other, and finally my sister 522 00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:30,199 leaned across me and poked my mom and said, why is he saying all 523 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:34,519 that stuff about Aunt Lucy? And my mother shushed her and you know, 524 00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:37,679 don't, don't say anything, Ambique. And so we just kind of rolled 525 00:43:37,679 --> 00:43:42,239 our eyes and kind of went with it and rocked the clock forward a few 526 00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:45,880 months, we're on a fishing trip and we're coming back down a dirt road 527 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:52,039 getting close to our house, and this idiot in this little bitty cards comes 528 00:43:52,159 --> 00:43:57,599 tearing by us like a lunatic, throwing gravel all over the place, almost 529 00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:01,360 ran my dad off the road. Mother said, look at that idiot. 530 00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:05,679 We're going to find him up this road a little while up in a ditch, 531 00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:09,320 upside down, dead, And my sister never missed a beat. Yeah, 532 00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:13,199 and the preachers stand up there and talk about what a good boy he 533 00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:16,599 was. Already she was on to him, Oh yeah, out of the 534 00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:22,480 mouths of babes. Absolutely well. We don't have any filters, so we 535 00:44:22,519 --> 00:44:25,920 didn't call it like we saw it. You know. My mother almost choked 536 00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:29,559 the death laughing so hard, but I'm like, you know, we saw 537 00:44:29,599 --> 00:44:31,079 this, and we were just kids and everybody else just wit with it. 538 00:44:31,159 --> 00:44:35,559 So I think we can all learn a lesson from her. Yeah, heavy 539 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,519 conversation today, but I thought you might use a little liberty. I appreciate 540 00:44:38,599 --> 00:44:43,480 that so much. Norma, thanks for calling. Hang in there, Sure 541 00:44:43,559 --> 00:44:46,199 you too. Thanks. I'll tell you something that needs to go away. 542 00:44:46,639 --> 00:44:52,639 When somebody says, why are you speaking ill of the dead? I remember 543 00:44:52,679 --> 00:44:59,159 when Jerry Folwell died, right, Jerry Folwell of the Moral Majority. He 544 00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:04,079 was an antique bigot, He was a conspiracy theorist, he was a Christian 545 00:45:04,199 --> 00:45:08,719 nationalist, and he was just not a good person and he died. Christopher 546 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:14,480 Hitchins went on Fox News and he was roasted. I think he was on 547 00:45:14,599 --> 00:45:19,880 Shawn and was it Hannity and Colmes back when Sean Hannity and Alan Combs had 548 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:25,000 that sort of a crossfire format, and hitch was there, and I think 549 00:45:25,039 --> 00:45:29,880 he said forgive me them, drawing it from memory, I know he said 550 00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:32,880 it at some point where Jerry Folwell was so full of shit that had you 551 00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,000 given him an enema, you could have buried the rest of him in a 552 00:45:37,079 --> 00:45:45,760 matchbox, which is really true. But you know he went after Fallwell and 553 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:50,000 mother Teresa after her death and others, and one of the protests on that 554 00:45:50,079 --> 00:45:53,039 show and elsewhere was he's gone, his family's grieving. Why would you say 555 00:45:53,079 --> 00:45:57,599 such things about him? Why isn't this a moment of reverence? And why 556 00:45:57,639 --> 00:46:00,000 can't you at least sit on your hands and be quiet, respectful as other 557 00:46:00,079 --> 00:46:06,840 people go through their pain? What's wrong with you? I've mentioned people that 558 00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:12,639 we have known who were terrible people, you know, terrible people, abusive 559 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:21,519 or lazy, or they were cruel or whatever, terrible people and something happened 560 00:46:21,519 --> 00:46:24,280 and they passed away, and I would say, boy, they were a 561 00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:28,880 terrible, lousy human being, right, they were just taken up air? 562 00:46:29,079 --> 00:46:32,840 Like what was the net positive having them in our lives? And the response 563 00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,280 is, oh, you know, they're gone. I mean, don't mind 564 00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:38,280 me just talking to me. Just let it go. Don't speak ill of 565 00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:45,239 the dead. And I don't understand that. Why does not existing mean that 566 00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:49,559 we whitewash your deeds when you were alive? Do you get some sort of 567 00:46:49,639 --> 00:46:53,400 a reputation rehab? Is that a default? Isn't that lying to ourselves? 568 00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:58,440 Why not be honest? They were a shitty human being when they were alive, 569 00:47:00,199 --> 00:47:02,760 which I guess is the only way you could be like, you wouldn't 570 00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:07,599 be a shitty human being a few dead. I'm sorry. I had a 571 00:47:07,599 --> 00:47:14,559 conversation about my phrasing and an apology from me for it. We will speak 572 00:47:14,599 --> 00:47:20,159 more of the dead and remembering the Dead coming up in just a second. 573 00:47:25,679 --> 00:47:30,840 Of course, this show is my first love, this community is my primary 574 00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:37,639 focus. But I sure have enjoyed my second podcast, True Stories with Seth 575 00:47:37,679 --> 00:47:40,960 Andrews. We just broke two hundred shows a couple of weeks ago, and 576 00:47:42,079 --> 00:47:45,320 the response has been good and I would hope you would enjoy it. You 577 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:52,360 can subscribe on all major podcast apps, just search for it. True Stories 578 00:47:52,719 --> 00:48:01,880 with Seth Andrews Noah at nine to five Are you there? Hi? Yeah? 579 00:48:02,039 --> 00:48:07,639 Talking about funerals and memorials and those who hijack them. What's your perspective. 580 00:48:08,519 --> 00:48:13,800 I had one of my closest friends die like about a year close to 581 00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:19,280 two years ago, and I just I just remember being at the service and 582 00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:25,639 something that really caught me off guard when the pastor passed. I can't remember 583 00:48:25,639 --> 00:48:32,599 exactly what the term was, but he said something like young men being taken 584 00:48:32,639 --> 00:48:39,679 from us earlier, like this isn't a part of God's plan, and I 585 00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:44,960 it just really struck me because I'm like, that's not how this works, 586 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:49,079 right, Like that's not how your God works, and I it's it's just 587 00:48:49,079 --> 00:48:53,920 something that really bothered me along with the normal like taking things out of our 588 00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:58,960 own hands, like our accomplishments or the good things that happened, and like 589 00:48:59,559 --> 00:49:04,119 the pausemative impact that this person has made on the world, and just kind 590 00:49:04,119 --> 00:49:07,320 of like, oh, look what God let him do. And then out 591 00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:12,199 of what he took him away for no reason or apparently didn't. I don't 592 00:49:12,199 --> 00:49:16,400 know if I'm not exactly tracking. Is he saying that God didn't want him 593 00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:21,119 to die? It was out of God's will? But God could not intervene. 594 00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:25,079 That's what I am taking from it is that it's not a part of 595 00:49:25,159 --> 00:49:31,159 his plan. But how is anything not a part of God's plan? Because 596 00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:37,000 doesn't he control everything? Maybe it was playing into that hole. It's a 597 00:49:37,039 --> 00:49:40,360 fallen world. You know, God would like to intervene, but we have 598 00:49:40,519 --> 00:49:47,199 restrained him because we are so wicked. Did you see the brand new nightmare 599 00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:53,599 of a speaker of the house Mike Johnson after this most recent shooting mass shooting, 600 00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:58,199 and what did he do? Well? First of his thoughts and prayers, 601 00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:01,960 and then somebody went back through the archives and he was talking about how 602 00:50:02,079 --> 00:50:09,559 it's it's because of the teaching of evolution and feminism, and there was something 603 00:50:09,599 --> 00:50:19,920 else. Remember when Jerry Folwell and Pat Robertson were blaming LGBT people for nine 604 00:50:20,039 --> 00:50:27,159 eleven omnipotent, all powerful God who can do everything, won't or can't do 605 00:50:27,519 --> 00:50:32,960 anything because we're disobedient children. So he's going to sit in the corner while 606 00:50:34,039 --> 00:50:37,639 his children get the shit kicked out of him, because that's how we're going 607 00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:44,800 to learn a little lesson anyway, Sorry for my tangent there, noah, 608 00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:46,800 No, no, of course that. Yeah, I just kind of did 609 00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:50,960 forget about that aspect of how they just push it off onto us, as 610 00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:58,199 if he didn't create us broken or you know, apparently create us broken to 611 00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:00,199 follow rules he knew we wouldn't be able to live up to, etc. 612 00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:05,880 Yeah, it used to say we are created sick and commanded to be well. 613 00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,760 Makes no sense. Yeah, noah, thanks for calling. I appreciate 614 00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:15,960 you. Yeah, thank you. Take care as I must soon draw to 615 00:51:15,039 --> 00:51:21,800 a close. Let me fulfill my promise here and read why you want a 616 00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:25,760 physicist to speak at your funeral. It's just a few paragraphs, but let 617 00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:30,440 me read it for you. It comes from a transcript of a speech given 618 00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:38,800 by writer and performer Aaron Freeman on NPR news is All Things Considered. It 619 00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:45,760 says this, You want a physicist to speak at your funeral. You want 620 00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:51,400 the physicist to talk to your grieving family about the conservation of energy, so 621 00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:57,239 they will understand that your energy has not died. You want the physicist to 622 00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:02,480 remind your sobbing mother about the first law of thermodynamics, that no energy is 623 00:52:02,559 --> 00:52:08,159 created in the universe and none is destroyed. You want your mother to know 624 00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:15,880 that all your energy, every vibration, every btu of heat, every wave 625 00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:21,960 of every particle that was her beloved child, remains with her in this world. 626 00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:27,800 You want the physicist to tell your weeping father that, amid the energies 627 00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:31,880 of the cosmos, you gave as good as you got, and at one 628 00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:37,000 point you'd hope that the physicist would step down from the pulpit and walk to 629 00:52:37,119 --> 00:52:42,719 your broken hearted spouse there in the pew and tell him that all of the 630 00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:49,320 photons that ever bounced off your face, all the particles whose paths were interrupted 631 00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:53,920 by your smile, by the touch of your hair. Hundreds of trillions of 632 00:52:54,119 --> 00:53:00,559 particles have raced off you like children, their ways forever changed by you. 633 00:53:02,079 --> 00:53:07,719 And as your widow rocks in the arms of a loving family, May the 634 00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:13,440 physicist let her know that all the photons that bounced from you were gathered in 635 00:53:13,519 --> 00:53:21,320 the particle detectors that are her eyes, that those photons created within her constellations 636 00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:29,079 of electro magnetically charged neurons, whose energy will go on forever. And the 637 00:53:29,119 --> 00:53:35,800 physicist will remind the congregation of how much all our energy is given off as 638 00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:40,920 heat. There may be a few fanning themselves with their programs as he says 639 00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:45,760 it, and he will tell them that the warmth that flowed through you in 640 00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:50,719 life is still here, still part of all that we are, even as 641 00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:55,960 we who morn continue in the heat of our own lives. And you'll want 642 00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:01,480 the physicists to explain to those who loved you that they need not have faith, 643 00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:07,280 indeed they should not have faith. Let them know that they can measure 644 00:54:07,679 --> 00:54:16,159 that scientists have measured precisely the conservation of energy and found it accurate, verifiable, 645 00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:22,519 and consistent across space and time. You can hope your family will examine 646 00:54:22,519 --> 00:54:29,559 the evidence and satisfy themselves that the science is sound, and that they'll be 647 00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:36,320 comforted to know your energy is still around. According to the law of the 648 00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:43,119 conservation of energy, not a bit of you is gone. You're just less 649 00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:52,639 orderly, Amen, and that is what I will leave you with today. 650 00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:55,679 Thank you so much for calling, and for listening and being a part of 651 00:54:55,719 --> 00:55:04,320 this interesting, sometimes heavy, sometimes humorous conversation as we talk about life and 652 00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:07,920 death together. Take care, and I'll see you back here next time. 653 00:55:07,199 --> 00:55:13,599 Follow The Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter for a complete archive of podcasts and 654 00:55:13,679 --> 00:55:17,320 videos, products like mugs and t shirts featuring the Thinking Atheist logo, links 655 00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:22,679 to atheist pages and resources, and details on upcoming free thought events and conventions. 656 00:55:23,039 --> 00:55:30,039 Log onto our website, The Thinkingatheist dot com.