1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,640 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,719 --> 00:00:28,519 with Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,559 --> 00:00:32,479 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:37,799 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:45,320 in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly 10 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:52,439 and I'm Bill Thomas. It is a perfectly stormy, human in disgusting afternoon 11 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,799 here in Southeast Virginia. What's it doing for you up there in Connecticut? 12 00:00:55,799 --> 00:01:00,320 Mister h oh, it's beautiful, It's summary. It's like eighty six three 13 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:06,560 blue sky, buffy white clouds, quite lovely. You're getting better weather than 14 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:11,359 we have had here recently. It has been a nasty scorching, sweltering mess. 15 00:01:11,719 --> 00:01:15,159 And here I am thinking I want to get back down to Virginia as 16 00:01:15,159 --> 00:01:18,040 soon as possible. Maybe I'll wait a few weeks. Yeah, you may 17 00:01:18,079 --> 00:01:22,000 need to wait a couple of weeks. People, it should get nicer. 18 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,719 It's Virginia weather. Wait five minutes, it'll change. That's what they say 19 00:01:25,719 --> 00:01:30,079 in New England. We want to thank everybody for your excellent feedback on our 20 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:34,760 two episodes with Kate Miles about the breaks in the Shenandoah case. Everybody has 21 00:01:34,799 --> 00:01:41,120 been very interested and enthusiastic. We do have some additional questions that people who 22 00:01:41,239 --> 00:01:44,079 scent to Kate, which we will get to her as soon as possible, 23 00:01:44,599 --> 00:01:47,840 and if we can get Kate to join us one more time, we certainly 24 00:01:47,879 --> 00:01:51,959 will shoot for that. Bill, how do you feel about everything that has 25 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:57,959 happened here with the Shenandoah case, having Kate on and having some answers in 26 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,519 this case, it's whenever we get big news like this it always knocks us 27 00:02:00,519 --> 00:02:06,480 for a loop. Having Kate Miles back on mind of a murder was really 28 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:10,080 a lot of fun. And even though we're discussing something that's very serious. 29 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:16,800 I think giving Kate, who is probably the greatest expert on the Shenandoah murders 30 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:23,120 case outside of law enforcement. Back on the podcast was really a great experience, 31 00:02:23,319 --> 00:02:27,479 and I can tell because questions continue to come in that our listeners have 32 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,960 a lot more questions for Kate, if anything. Having Kate on twice makes 33 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:36,039 me want to have her on for a third question and answer session because it's 34 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,919 such an interesting case. Obviously, we're thrilled that we're starting to see some 35 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:46,560 resolution, if you will, of the Shenandoah murders. Twenty eight years is 36 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:50,439 a long time to wait for answers, so for Julie Williams and Lolly Winan's 37 00:02:50,479 --> 00:02:55,000 family, we hope that there's some degree of answers or relief. It's a 38 00:02:55,080 --> 00:03:00,400 case I think that warrant's further discussion, and I know there's something we want 39 00:03:00,439 --> 00:03:05,159 to get into in today's episode about what we'd like to see for next steps. 40 00:03:06,319 --> 00:03:08,120 We also, of course want to spend a little bit of time talking 41 00:03:08,159 --> 00:03:14,360 about the fact that we have seen now in the last six seven months of 42 00:03:14,479 --> 00:03:21,439 the year, two press conferences from the FBI announcing breaks in significantly cold cases, 43 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:23,719 shall we say, or I suppose they wouldn't want us say in cold 44 00:03:23,759 --> 00:03:27,960 cases. I guess they would want us to say old cases, because they 45 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,879 say that they've been working on these. But we definitely noticed some similarities between 46 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:38,759 the two press conferences ours on January eighth and the one announcing the Shenandoah case 47 00:03:38,039 --> 00:03:40,360 just a couple of weeks ago, and so we want to spend a little 48 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:44,919 bit of time exploring them. I do want to take a minute and kind 49 00:03:44,919 --> 00:03:49,319 of detour down the old case versus cold case route. How do you think 50 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:53,919 the FBI would want to categorize these? Would they want to admit to these 51 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:58,360 being cold cases or would they refer to them as something else. I think 52 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:02,919 I've told you before that years ago when I first got more directly involved in 53 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:09,639 the Colonial Parkway murders after the FBI lost control of seventy eight HOHIGI graphic crime 54 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:14,840 scene photos, a story that then broke in Virginia media thanks to our friend 55 00:04:14,879 --> 00:04:20,680 Mike Mather from WTKR News in Norfolk, Virginia. The assistant Special Agent in 56 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:26,800 charge of the FBI Norfolk office at that time was a guy named Brian Hanlon 57 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,720 So who would have been the number two guy in that office, and he'd 58 00:04:29,759 --> 00:04:33,160 actually taken over as the special agent in charge, the number one guy for 59 00:04:33,519 --> 00:04:39,360 a time as well. Handland said to me, your sister's case is at 60 00:04:39,399 --> 00:04:44,600 the bottom of a very dusty pile, which was an honest answer, although 61 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:49,360 a hard one to hear. I know that law enforcement always resists the idea 62 00:04:49,439 --> 00:04:55,639 of cold cases, but we've had that cold case excuse thrown back in our 63 00:04:55,680 --> 00:05:00,600 faces so many times that I'm not willing to accept anyone saying there is no 64 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,079 such thing as a cold case. Because behind closed doors, when we're not 65 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:08,160 on the air here at Mindover Murder, various agents who've worked this case have 66 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:11,480 told me your sister's case is a cold case, and so when you hear 67 00:05:11,519 --> 00:05:15,680 it over and over again privately, it's real. Sometimes law enforcement and the 68 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:19,279 FBI is probably in this category, will insist there is no such thing as 69 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:24,480 a cold case. I'm not buying it. They've said it too many times 70 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:30,399 to me privately and other family members. We've come to understand that there is 71 00:05:30,439 --> 00:05:33,800 such a thing as a cold case. I could make a very convincing argument, 72 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:38,399 I think, as to why cases go cold, but that's a whole 73 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:45,920 nother discussion. I'm pleased with the developments in the Julie Williams Lollywinen's case. 74 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:53,240 It's very frustrating for media people like Kate Miles and other reporters who are now 75 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:58,920 circling back with the FBI with additional questions, and they are getting nowhere. 76 00:05:59,319 --> 00:06:02,560 They are getting complete straight arm. The FBI is refusing to answer questions. 77 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:09,319 I know one of our journalist friends then shifted gears and reached out to the 78 00:06:09,439 --> 00:06:15,199 United States attorney for the Shenandoah murders case, and he refused to answer questions, 79 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:19,199 referring them back to the FBI. And of course the FBI is absolutely 80 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:25,920 refusing to answer any other questions. And I think this is completely unacceptable because 81 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:31,199 it is not unreasonable for journalists and even podcasters like ourselves to be asking tell 82 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:35,920 us more about how you solve this case. There's nothing wrong with that. 83 00:06:36,319 --> 00:06:40,480 As a matter of fact, I feel strongly, as we talked about recently, 84 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,560 that the public has are right to know these things. We've been waiting 85 00:06:43,639 --> 00:06:47,240 for answers in the Shenandoah case for twenty eight years. Suddenly they make an 86 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:53,439 announcement, and I do mean suddenly, and they want to talk for twenty 87 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:59,839 minutes in a press conference and then sign off and not answer a single edition 88 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:05,040 question. I think this is completely insane and the lack of transparency here is 89 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:09,839 really frustrating. Now, I know, Bill, in your previous life, 90 00:07:09,959 --> 00:07:13,560 in your professional life, prior to mind Over Murder and all of this, 91 00:07:14,439 --> 00:07:18,319 you'd mentioned before that you do you have put together press conferences in the past. 92 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:23,839 How would you have done this differently? If it was up to you 93 00:07:24,319 --> 00:07:29,240 to put together a press conference with regard to these cases, what would you 94 00:07:29,519 --> 00:07:33,959 allow that maybe the FBI didn't allow. What would you have been doing differently 95 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:41,399 in both examples in the Colonial Parkway murders press conference on January eighth, twenty 96 00:07:41,519 --> 00:07:46,480 twenty four, and then the Shenandoah murders press conference just a couple of weeks 97 00:07:46,519 --> 00:07:51,160 ago. First of all, both of these press conferences were announced on extremely 98 00:07:51,519 --> 00:07:58,720 short notice. Remember, these cases have been around for three decades. We're 99 00:07:58,759 --> 00:08:01,920 closing in on four decades in the Colonial Parkway murders. So it isn't like 100 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:07,560 these developments and the good news, in other words, solves are good news 101 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:13,199 if you've been waiting for answers for thirty to thirty seven years. These press 102 00:08:13,199 --> 00:08:18,759 conferences are being announced on essentially a crash basis. They make a lot of 103 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:24,839 very odd decisions about what they will say to the press before the conference actually 104 00:08:24,879 --> 00:08:31,039 takes place. Remember back in January, when we've got the advanced copy of 105 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:35,399 what had been sent out, which is basically a media advisory, and I've 106 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:41,879 done these before. You want to try if you're serious about coverage, and 107 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:46,200 that's a big if in this example, you want to try to let your 108 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:50,960 reporters know what is going to be discussed. You might not tell them everything, 109 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:54,679 but you want to grab their attention. You want them to attend the 110 00:08:54,679 --> 00:09:00,840 press conference, either virtually or in person, or participate in some way. 111 00:09:01,159 --> 00:09:05,720 And actually the FBI seems to have gone out of their way to limit participation. 112 00:09:07,399 --> 00:09:11,159 Even reporter friends said to us at the time of the News and the 113 00:09:11,159 --> 00:09:15,440 Colonial Parkway murders, when they announced that Robin Edwards, David Nobling, and 114 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:20,679 Teresa Howell's murders were connected to Allen Wade Wilmer Senior, they never called the 115 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:26,960 case the Colonial Parkway murders. Reporters came back to us and said, if 116 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:31,279 they had said Colonial Parkway murders, there would have been a lot more coverage 117 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:35,200 of this case, and there would have been a lot more national coverage because 118 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:39,360 obviously the Colonial Parkway murders had been around for thirty seven years and have become 119 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:43,200 a well known case, partly through our efforts and the efforts of Virginia media 120 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:48,200 and media across the country. So to quietly put out this kind of last 121 00:09:48,279 --> 00:09:52,720 minute I think it was a Monday morning if I'm not mistaken press announcement saying 122 00:09:52,799 --> 00:09:58,960 there's going to be an update on these cases in Isle of Wight, without 123 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:03,720 ever mentioning who they were talking about, who the victims were, the fact 124 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,039 that this is part of the Colonial park By murders, one begins to think, 125 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:11,879 Gee, there seems to be a real effort here to limit the amount 126 00:10:11,039 --> 00:10:18,080 of press coverage and even interest from reporters. Yeah, I think that is 127 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:22,200 very much a fair assessment for anybody who hasn't worked in the same line of 128 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:26,679 work that you have. When a news advisory goes out and then when a 129 00:10:26,759 --> 00:10:31,480 press kit follows up, for anybody who's not familiar, can you explain what 130 00:10:31,519 --> 00:10:33,759 a news advisory is and what does a press kit look like? An advisory 131 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:39,879 I'm usually called a media advisory is usually a one pager that goes out electronically 132 00:10:39,919 --> 00:10:46,960 to as many media people as possible. You want typically maximum coverage of your 133 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:52,080 story. I think that in both of these examples, significant effort went into 134 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:58,120 not achieving maximum coverage because they actually wanted to just quietly put these stories out 135 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:05,240 media advisory, which is usually embargoed, and that's a very specific term of 136 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:09,440 art that says this is going to happen at such and such a time. 137 00:11:09,519 --> 00:11:13,840 Usually you try to give people a couple of days notice. And that did 138 00:11:13,879 --> 00:11:18,039 not happen in either one of these press conferences, and I believe that is 139 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:22,320 also deliberate on the part of the FBI and the Virginia State Police. They 140 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:28,240 were meeting with the families several days before they could have sent out a media 141 00:11:28,279 --> 00:11:31,399 advisory with an embargo, that is, you can't write about it or discuss 142 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:37,639 it until such and such a time. Media people try to be respectful of 143 00:11:37,639 --> 00:11:41,159 these embargoes. So if they say hold for Tuesday morning at ten am, 144 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:46,799 I'm just making this up. So you might send that out Monday morning so 145 00:11:46,879 --> 00:11:54,360 you can make arrangements to get as many media people participating in covering writing about 146 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:58,879 Remember, in some cases, if they want to have a television crew there 147 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:03,039 or a radio team there. They've got to get there and get set up. 148 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,759 You actually want to give them some notice. There is this understanding that 149 00:12:07,159 --> 00:12:11,159 they're not going to write about it, or talk about it, or publicize 150 00:12:11,159 --> 00:12:16,399 it in any way until after the embargo date. When you see things like 151 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:20,759 this happening where the press conferences are set up on extremely short notice, this 152 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:26,240 is breaking news. You could make that argument, but remember they've been working 153 00:12:26,279 --> 00:12:31,919 on these cases literally for decades. They could have easily built in a few 154 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:35,600 extra days so that they sent out the media advisory and said, please be 155 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:39,159 here at this time and place if you want to have a camera crew here 156 00:12:39,399 --> 00:12:45,840 or a live radio team covering the story. If anything, they were doing 157 00:12:45,879 --> 00:12:50,000 exactly the opposite at the same time. We talked to Kate Miles the other 158 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,960 day. In my opinion, Kate Miles is probably the greatest expert on the 159 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:58,600 Shenandoah case of anyone outside of law enforcement. She wasn't invited to the press 160 00:12:58,639 --> 00:13:05,440 conference, She wasn't even sent an invitation to dial in to the press conference 161 00:13:05,519 --> 00:13:09,879 or watch it online. You begin to realize they're not very serious about getting 162 00:13:09,919 --> 00:13:13,759 the word out. Now, what's weird from my perspective, is I actually 163 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:18,480 think this is good news, as I said a minute ago, the fact 164 00:13:18,519 --> 00:13:22,080 that the FBI and the Virginia State Police are working back through cold cases, 165 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:28,919 finding funding through the SAKE program, the Sexual Assault Kit Initiative program, testing 166 00:13:28,919 --> 00:13:33,039 and retesting evidence and finding answers. This is great news. They should be 167 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:37,919 proud of it. And yet what would my mom say about hiding your light 168 00:13:37,039 --> 00:13:41,320 under a bushel? It seems like they don't want to talk about what I 169 00:13:41,399 --> 00:13:46,559 regard as good news. One further point of clarification there when you say dialed 170 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:50,840 into a press conference, I know that means something very specific. Can you 171 00:13:50,879 --> 00:13:54,919 explain what that means? To get a number to dial into the conference? 172 00:13:54,240 --> 00:14:00,639 So what they do is they typically will have an Internet address and you have 173 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,919 to sign in identify yourself. So you say, I'm Bill Thomas, I'm 174 00:14:03,919 --> 00:14:09,080 from such and such a radio station, TV station, whatever. They would 175 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:13,000 be checking your credentials. It's almost like the equivalent of being physically at the 176 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,879 press conference, and they would have a clipboard and they would have here are 177 00:14:16,879 --> 00:14:18,720 all the names of all the people that are expected to be there. Oh 178 00:14:18,799 --> 00:14:24,320 okay, When they say dial in, they mean literally dial in on a 179 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:30,000 phone Obviously things are much more Internet focused now. A lot of times there'll 180 00:14:30,039 --> 00:14:35,559 be a live stream which would involve then people signing in and using their credentials. 181 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,039 They might need your email address or your phone number or both, as 182 00:14:39,039 --> 00:14:43,840 well as your name and title, what media organization you're representing. But if 183 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:48,039 you're really looking for maximum coverage, you're trying to reach as many reporters and 184 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:52,720 media outlets as possible, and you want to encourage people to participate. In 185 00:14:52,759 --> 00:14:56,600 other words, do you think this is important enough news to have a news 186 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:03,000 conference, then I think you would want to have as much coverage as possible. 187 00:15:03,559 --> 00:15:05,759 In both of these examples, these were run by two separate offices. 188 00:15:05,799 --> 00:15:11,600 It was FBI Norfolk Field Office in the Colonial Parkway murders matter, and it 189 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:18,720 was FBI Richmond in the Shenandoah murderers coverage. But the approach, the whole 190 00:15:20,039 --> 00:15:26,159 hiding your light under a bushel thing, I think my mom would laugh at 191 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:33,440 me from heaven for using these expressions. It starts to feel like they actually 192 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:39,639 don't want coverage, or they certainly don't want maximum coverage. I was preparing 193 00:15:39,679 --> 00:15:43,559 for today's discussion and looking at the two press conferences which are available online, 194 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:48,360 and we'll link them in the show notes, so you can actually go back 195 00:15:48,399 --> 00:15:52,960 and on YouTube you can watch the entire press conference. They're remarkably short. 196 00:15:52,279 --> 00:15:56,600 They're both only about twenty to twenty three minutes long, which is very short 197 00:15:56,639 --> 00:16:02,159 for a press conference. Again starts to feel like, gee, you guys 198 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:07,200 aren't really very serious about answering questions here and getting the word out. One 199 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:11,559 of the things we criticized in the Colonial Parkway murders press conference was there was 200 00:16:11,679 --> 00:16:18,559 something very odd about this set up in the room. There weren't sufficient mics 201 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:22,519 in the room. It was very difficult to hear what the reporters were asking. 202 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:29,240 And I got to criticize again here, I've done this. You set 203 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:33,720 up microphones in the room so that people can step up or pass the wireless 204 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:38,200 mic around and they can say I'm Andy Fox from WABY and then ask their 205 00:16:38,279 --> 00:16:44,879 question. If you have the room set up and these are professionals, if 206 00:16:44,919 --> 00:16:48,000 you have the room set up in a way that people around the country and 207 00:16:48,039 --> 00:16:52,679 even around the world that are watching this thing live on their computers for the 208 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:57,440 most part, if they can't hear the questions, it's not a very meaningful 209 00:16:57,559 --> 00:17:02,840 dialogue. And this this is another failure on their part. If you have 210 00:17:02,919 --> 00:17:08,680 a situation like that where it's hard to hear the questions being asked, the 211 00:17:08,799 --> 00:17:15,119 protocol and I'm really going to emphasize this because I've done this. If Kristin 212 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:18,839 Dilley is a reporter and she's asking me a question and I'm not sure the 213 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:26,119 audience, which is often well outside the room, cannot hear her original question, 214 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,559 the protocol is to repeat the question. So Kristin will say, how 215 00:17:30,559 --> 00:17:34,400 did you find out about this new information or whatever the question is. The 216 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:41,960 spokesperson would typically repeat the question so that everybody around the world could hear what 217 00:17:41,079 --> 00:17:47,240 the question was. If you're not doing that, you're not being serious, 218 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:52,240 and that was very noticeable. We keep calling it the Colonial Parkway murders press 219 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:55,920 conference. They were doing everything they could not to call that case the Colonial 220 00:17:55,960 --> 00:18:00,640 Parkway murders. They kept referring to it as the Isle of White murders, 221 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,440 And as we discussed here previously, no one has ever called this case the 222 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:07,759 Isle of White murders. We're just making stuff up now, and we're making 223 00:18:07,759 --> 00:18:11,400 stuff up because we don't want to refer to this case as the Colonial Parkway 224 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:15,599 murders, and I'm sorry I didn't make up the name either, but that 225 00:18:15,759 --> 00:18:21,119 is the name that the media and the public know that case. As so, 226 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:26,519 there seems to be a real effort made not to take questions seriously and 227 00:18:26,599 --> 00:18:32,200 not respond to them in a serious way. I think this goes back to 228 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:36,839 what Kate was referring to, and I love that she used this. I'm 229 00:18:36,839 --> 00:18:40,079 going to start using this term as well. I love the fact that she 230 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:45,279 said she would love for the FBI and all law enforcement agencies involved to show 231 00:18:45,319 --> 00:18:49,640 their work. Yes, which is an admonition that we hear in math classrooms 232 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:55,599 at high schools, for example, where I teach. But I think there 233 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:59,599 is a really excellent point there. I would love to know. We all 234 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:03,519 would like to know how did Walter Leo Jackson make his way on to your 235 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:10,680 radar? The guy was in jail n Ohio multiple times, and not nearly 236 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,039 long enough each time, but we'll get into that a couple of minutes. 237 00:19:15,079 --> 00:19:19,880 How did this guy come on to your radar? There is something very unsatisfying 238 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:27,319 but also very hegy about saying here's a suspect. We have found this person. 239 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:32,680 He's been linked via DNA, but we're looking for more information about him. 240 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:36,079 But that's it. They didn't give any other bits of information. And 241 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:41,079 Kate had a whole list of things that she said she had basically written to 242 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:47,319 the FBI in answer to this. She, among other things, wanted to 243 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:52,799 know what evidence was retested, what DNA was ultimately retested, Why did you 244 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,160 use private labs instead of the Quantico labs? Which private lab did you go 245 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,960 to before you went to the one that you went with. Were the results 246 00:20:00,079 --> 00:20:03,240 a loaded into codis? Will they be compared to other crimes in the area. 247 00:20:03,279 --> 00:20:06,119 And that's just some of the ones that Kate had asked about. She'd 248 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:11,079 asked for many more. Why isn't the FBI willing to answer those questions? 249 00:20:11,319 --> 00:20:15,240 Why aren't they willing to show their work? I think it's a great, 250 00:20:15,599 --> 00:20:22,599 worthy, natural question to ask. One of our listeners actually said earlier today 251 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:27,599 that she wants us to design assureds FBI, please show your work. The 252 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:33,880 thing is what's crazy, and it makes me completely insane. Is I really 253 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:38,400 do mean this? This is outstanding work in both of these cases. They're 254 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:45,839 going back retesting evidence and solving cold cases that are decades old, and we 255 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:51,480 have raised them for that work. It almost feels like they're not proud of 256 00:20:51,519 --> 00:20:56,000 their work, which I don't really believe to be the case. Yeah, 257 00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:00,400 this is bananas. You're talking two of the biggest cases in Virginia, two 258 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,920 of the most well known cases in Virginia, and you guys are starting to 259 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:08,200 crack them. Please be proud of this trumpet, this this is important. 260 00:21:08,839 --> 00:21:12,119 You're right. I don't understand why the being cagey about it. I'd be 261 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,799 seeing it from the rooftops if it were made. And what's strange too, 262 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:21,400 is that when questions were asked and we talked about this before, Andy Fox 263 00:21:21,519 --> 00:21:26,720 and other reporters asking when did Alan Wade Wilmer Senior first move on to your 264 00:21:26,799 --> 00:21:30,559 radar and the Colonial Parkway murders, The question was asked twice and the spokeswoman 265 00:21:30,759 --> 00:21:37,279 refused to answer the question twice. I'm sorry, that's ludicrous. It's not 266 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:41,400 an unfair question, it's not a gotcha question. But of course they didn't 267 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:45,799 want to talk about the fact that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior was suspect number one 268 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,880 in the disappearance of Keith Colin. Cassandra Haley, as we talked about last 269 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:53,599 week on mind Over Murder, now this is getting more coverage in the press 270 00:21:53,759 --> 00:22:00,319 because we're calling them out on this. They even told the families privately nine 271 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,720 percent certain. And I understand that not every family member who was there participated 272 00:22:04,759 --> 00:22:08,759 in that discussion. Was said. It was quoted to me directly. I 273 00:22:08,799 --> 00:22:15,039 certainly didn't make it up. Law enforcement seems to want to avoid discussing anything 274 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:19,720 that might hint at a shortcoming in terms of their investigation. And my attitude 275 00:22:19,839 --> 00:22:23,079 is, oh, come on. First of all, these cases are twenty 276 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:27,519 eight to thirty seven years old. Of course things went wrong, which is 277 00:22:27,559 --> 00:22:32,359 how we get to a case being twenty eight to thirty seven years old. 278 00:22:32,519 --> 00:22:34,920 And at the same time, and we've talked about this with experts here on 279 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:41,279 Mind Over Murder, the science, the forensics, DNA testing have gotten so 280 00:22:41,559 --> 00:22:48,160 much better. There's a reason why these advances are taking place. But in 281 00:22:48,319 --> 00:22:52,400 failing to even highlight a bit of the backstory about how they got to where 282 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,160 they got to, I think the FBI and the Virginia State Police are really 283 00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:03,359 failing the public because explain how this happened. It's also ludicrous that these cases, 284 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,039 which go back decades, they're blowing through these press conferences in twenty three 285 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:11,920 minute. It's because they don't want to answer questions. That kind of sucks. 286 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:19,039 It's not good public policy, it doesn't help law enforcement's reputation. And 287 00:23:19,079 --> 00:23:22,799 I know our friends in law enforcement complain all the time that the public doesn't 288 00:23:22,839 --> 00:23:27,880 seem to trust them. This is the kind of crap that makes people not 289 00:23:29,319 --> 00:23:33,279 trust the FBI, the Virginia State Police, and law enforcement in general because 290 00:23:33,319 --> 00:23:41,400 they feel like they're not being straightforward with us because they're not. You're listening 291 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:49,319 to mind over Murder. Will be right back after this word from our sponsors. 292 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:56,319 We're back here at mindover Murder. Before we get back to the podcast, 293 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,599 just wanted to remind you that we have a go fund and the effort 294 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,240 going on right now. This campaign is designed to help us raise funds to 295 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:11,640 help promote Mind over Murder and specifically to push the Colonial Parkway murders investigation forward. 296 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,160 We love it if you could support us in any way that you can. 297 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:22,160 Any donation from five dollars to whatever you can afford is very much appreciated 298 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,799 and will be incredibly helpful. The link is in the show notes and in 299 00:24:25,839 --> 00:24:30,200 our social media pages, and as always, thanks for your support. Now 300 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:37,559 back to mind over murder. He made an excellent comparison to the Golden State 301 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:44,880 killer case and how meticulous the investigators were when they talked about here's how we 302 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,559 solved the case. Here's how we picked up the DNA, here's how it 303 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,839 was tested, here's the genetic genealogy. They can't give you chapter and verse, 304 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,480 of course, but in a case like this, and you had mentioned 305 00:24:56,519 --> 00:25:00,920 this last time with Kate as well, both of these offenders are dead. 306 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,400 Walter Leo Jackson and Alan Waid Wilmer Senior are dead. There is not going 307 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:10,680 to be a trial. You are hurting zero things by letting us just get 308 00:25:10,759 --> 00:25:15,559 the baarrest. Hint of how you went about making these answers come about for 309 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,880 these families, and you are I think, actually doing a disservice if you're 310 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,480 not willing to spend a little more time and explain. Look, here's how 311 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:27,799 we did it. Science is better. This is the process that we went 312 00:25:27,839 --> 00:25:33,599 through. Any questions we can answer about that, It does feel very much 313 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,640 like the public is being done a disservice too. Both of those press conferences, 314 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,960 if they were properly run, should have run at least two hours. 315 00:25:42,279 --> 00:25:48,960 They should have taken questions until the reporters had no more questions to ask. 316 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:55,680 They also should have given sufficient notice to the press in DC and in Virginia 317 00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:00,799 so that they could be there. When you announce a pre conference with a 318 00:26:00,839 --> 00:26:04,880 couple of hours notice, that means that a lot of reporters who've already gotten 319 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:11,640 their assignments for that day, they have editors or news directors that tell them, 320 00:26:11,799 --> 00:26:15,559 please go out and work this story. So in a lot of those 321 00:26:15,599 --> 00:26:19,519 examples, those reporters that have already been committed to something else, so they're 322 00:26:19,559 --> 00:26:26,640 out with their crews doing research, shooting video, recording audio, whatever it 323 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:32,960 is. And when you announce a press conference, you're basically springing it on 324 00:26:33,559 --> 00:26:37,759 the public and on the media outlets. So when you're announcing a press conference 325 00:26:38,519 --> 00:26:44,359 two, three, four hours in advance, that's not sufficient notice. And 326 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:49,519 after a while that starts to feel deliberate, like you aren't proud of the 327 00:26:49,559 --> 00:26:53,880 work that you've done. And my heart of heart says that's not true. 328 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,480 That the teams that have worked these cases are proud of the work that they've 329 00:26:57,519 --> 00:27:03,319 done. But whoever's in tron charge of media relations has decided, oh, 330 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:07,480 we want to keep this on a down low. We don't really want to 331 00:27:07,519 --> 00:27:11,359 talk about the case because someone might ask us a question that highlights one of 332 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:18,039 the areas where we screwed up. Come on, we need to be grown 333 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:22,319 up about this. As I've said before, I screw up plenty in my 334 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,480 life and what I try to do. I'm not claiming to be perfect here. 335 00:27:26,519 --> 00:27:29,519 My partner, Pamela, and my family can tell you long stories. 336 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:36,599 But when I do screw up, I try to calm down and let people 337 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:41,440 know that I'm sorry for what happened and that I will try to learn from 338 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:47,000 that and try to make sure that mistake doesn't happen again. The FBI seems 339 00:27:47,039 --> 00:27:52,759 completely incapable of ever approaching anything like that level of grace where they just admit, 340 00:27:53,519 --> 00:27:59,440 Hey, we had Alan Waide Wilmer Senior in custody. We questioned him 341 00:28:00,319 --> 00:28:04,200 his premises, we gave them two polygraphic examinations. But based on the evidence 342 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:10,319 that we had and the science available to us in nineteen eighty eight, we 343 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,160 did not have enough to charge this man, so we had to let him 344 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,440 go. I don't think that's an unreasonable explanation and probably not far from the 345 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:23,920 truth of what happened, but for them to refuse to acknowledge how and when 346 00:28:25,079 --> 00:28:29,960 Alan Wade Wilmer Senior first moved on to their radar. This is absurd and 347 00:28:30,079 --> 00:28:34,200 insulting. I agree, and I also want to take a moment here to 348 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:40,519 speak out on behalf of what was unsaid at the press conference about the Shenandoah, 349 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:47,279 which is that the FBI did not acknowledge in any way or apologize. 350 00:28:47,319 --> 00:28:48,960 An apology would be far too much to ask, but they did not even 351 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:55,119 acknowledge the fact that Darryl David Rice, who was suspect number one in this 352 00:28:55,200 --> 00:29:00,039 case from the very beginning. They did not offer any apology, to accountability, 353 00:29:00,079 --> 00:29:04,839 for explanation for why they continued for years and years to make Daryl David 354 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,359 Rice seem to be the person who was responsible for this when it has been 355 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:15,279 proven unequivocally by DNA he was not responsible. That feels worse to me than 356 00:29:15,839 --> 00:29:22,200 failing to acknowledge that Wilmer was suspect number one. They actively ruined Darryl David 357 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:29,400 Rice's life, and they didn't offer anything in the way of are bad so 358 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,920 sorry things happen? I think the first thing that I asked you because that 359 00:29:34,039 --> 00:29:37,359 this all happened when I was on vacation with my family. I think the 360 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,440 first thing that I asked you was did they say anything about Daryl David Rice? 361 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,480 And the answer, of course was like, well, no, of 362 00:29:44,519 --> 00:29:48,559 course they didn't. But that was really disappointing to me. Again, acknowledgment 363 00:29:48,599 --> 00:29:55,759 of past mistakes, it does show a level of grace and maturity frankly, 364 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,400 that the Bureau kind of doesn't seem to have right at the moment, and 365 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:06,640 come on, you ruin the guy's life offers something even without an apology, 366 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:12,359 which would never cross the lips of the effort, would I think them making 367 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:19,000 it clear that Darryl David Rice is not a suspect in the murder of Julie 368 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:23,759 Williams and Lolly Winans. I was about to say, nor has he been 369 00:30:23,839 --> 00:30:29,240 for a number of years, but again, I can't ever seem to see 370 00:30:29,279 --> 00:30:37,039 them doing that. It's really unfortunate. I don't know where this institutional arrogance 371 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,680 and rigidity come from. They really have to do better than this. They 372 00:30:42,039 --> 00:30:48,240 are not even acknowledging past mistakes. I did find it interesting that at the 373 00:30:48,279 --> 00:30:56,279 press conference regarding the Shenandoah that they specifically mentioned that there was no connection to 374 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,880 the murders of Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski. Yeah, I was about to 375 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:03,960 go there. I found that interesting. I don't object. I actually appreciate 376 00:31:04,359 --> 00:31:10,319 more. I actually want more information. So oh right, it was upsetting 377 00:31:10,359 --> 00:31:15,680 to hear their names mentioned in that context. I appreciated it. Nonetheless, 378 00:31:17,359 --> 00:31:21,359 were you given the option to dial into this press conference because of that possible 379 00:31:21,359 --> 00:31:26,359 connection with Kathy and Becky Ornow? I was not given that option. I 380 00:31:26,519 --> 00:31:30,799 was given the number by the friends of ours and the media. I thought 381 00:31:30,839 --> 00:31:36,400 about it, but given the friction between the FBI and myself over the past 382 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:40,279 year, things are better now. But as I've mentioned before, a year 383 00:31:40,279 --> 00:31:45,480 ago, things were very heated and it got really ugly and even threatening behind 384 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,599 closed doors, which I was not happy about. So even though I had 385 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:55,440 the number and the code to dial into the call, I decided not to 386 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,960 call into the Shenandoah press conference. As we've talked about before, the FBA 387 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:04,720 I deliberately tied me up on the phone for two and a half hours during 388 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:09,880 the Colonial Parkway murders press conference, and again no disrespect to the agent who 389 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:15,799 provided me within in depth briefing, but coincidentally set for one thirty pm on 390 00:32:15,839 --> 00:32:21,880 the day of the press conference, so that I couldn't listen to or watch 391 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,680 the press conference until many hours later. These things happen over and over again. 392 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:31,559 They're not a coincidence. They are deliberate, and these reindeer games get 393 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:37,200 really old. In answer to your question in the Shenandoah press conference, I 394 00:32:37,319 --> 00:32:43,960 had the information but made the decision not to call in. Actually we did 395 00:32:44,039 --> 00:32:46,680 have one of the many questions that came in for Kate, there was also 396 00:32:46,759 --> 00:32:52,200 one that came in for you, and it was a listener who wanted to 397 00:32:52,279 --> 00:32:57,720 know. Okay, Bill, during that two hours when you were tied up 398 00:32:57,839 --> 00:33:01,000 with the case agent, can you say what was discussed? And I don't 399 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:05,799 think you've ever even told me what was discussed. It was an in depth 400 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:10,920 briefing from our case agent. That's all I'm going to say. Continuing with 401 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:15,680 Walter Leo Jackson, we are very lucky that we have a number of excellent 402 00:33:15,759 --> 00:33:22,319 people who are willing to provide us some additional help and legwork on a research 403 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:28,359 basis, because while we love being able to do the podcast, we are 404 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:32,079 not always able to devote the amount of time that we would like to doing 405 00:33:32,279 --> 00:33:37,319 every single bit of research that it requires, and so we do reach out 406 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:43,160 to ask listeners from time to time for help, and we were lucky enough 407 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:50,799 to have a well intentioned research assistant reach out to us and give us some 408 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:57,039 information on Walter LEO. Jackson, who has been identified as the culprit behind 409 00:33:57,039 --> 00:34:02,400 the murders of Julie Williams and Lolly Winans. They found a very interesting and 410 00:34:02,599 --> 00:34:10,159 quite disturbing article from the Cleveland, Ohio Plane Dealer from August twenty fourth, 411 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:17,800 twenty eleven, detailing the last of the crimes that resulted in him being imprisoned 412 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:22,679 from twenty twelve to the end of his life at twenty eighteen. We wanted 413 00:34:22,679 --> 00:34:27,480 to share that information with all of you, although we would warn you, 414 00:34:27,559 --> 00:34:32,599 of course, that this is quite disturbing. So this is from the Cleveland, 415 00:34:32,639 --> 00:34:37,239 Ohio Plane Dealer, August twenty fourth, twenty Eleven's is from the Law 416 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:42,840 and Order section. It's quite a short article. The headline reads man accused 417 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,840 of abducting raping team. Walter L. Jackson, sixty three, of North 418 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:52,960 Olmsted pleaded not guilty Tuesday to two counts of kidnapping four counts of rape and 419 00:34:53,039 --> 00:34:59,719 two counts of felonious assault in Cuyahoga County Common please Court for crimes against an 420 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:05,719 eight eighteen year old Cleveland girl on August tenth. Prosecutors said Jackson approached the 421 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:09,519 girl at two pm at West fifty eighth Street and Madison Avenue and asked if 422 00:35:09,519 --> 00:35:14,599 she needed a ride. The girl got in Jackson's van and they went to 423 00:35:14,639 --> 00:35:21,679 the parking lot at Don's Lighthouse. Jackson reportedly bound her legs, put handcuffs 424 00:35:21,679 --> 00:35:23,880 on her, gagged her mouth, and struck her in the head with a 425 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:30,719 blunt object, and engaged insects, said Ryan Maday, spokesperson for the Cuyahoga 426 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:36,599 County Prosecutor's Office. Jackson drove to West forty sixth Street in Train Avenue, 427 00:35:36,639 --> 00:35:40,920 where the girl escaped, Still bound, gagged and naked. Jackson tried to 428 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:45,719 get her but was spotted by several witnesses. Miday said Jackson returned to the 429 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:50,760 van and drove away, but a witness followed him in a car and used 430 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,599 his on star system to contact police. He followed him to Rocky River, 431 00:35:54,719 --> 00:36:00,440 where police arrested Jackson on Worcester Road. Jackson was being held in jail on 432 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:06,320 two hundred and fifty thousand dollars bail. Medeisai. Jackson has a conviction for 433 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:10,880 felonious assault in two thousand. A pre trial date has not yet been scheduled. 434 00:36:13,039 --> 00:36:19,320 It sounds so much like the Julie Williams Lolly Winan's murder with the use 435 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:25,599 of the handcuffs and duct tape restraining her sexual assault. And this guy, 436 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:30,320 as we understand it, we're learning more about him, but he sounds like 437 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:37,400 a repeat offender who has been involved in rapes and kidnappings for years. I 438 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,800 know. One of the things that Kate had mentioned to us recently is she 439 00:36:40,079 --> 00:36:46,239 doubts that the escalation to murder which we saw in the Julie Williams Lolly Winans 440 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:52,960 case is the only time that Jackson would have crossed that line from kidnapping rape 441 00:36:53,039 --> 00:36:59,920 into murder. Also reminds me of Joseph D'Angelo, the Golden State Killer, 442 00:37:00,119 --> 00:37:05,320 and a number of other people like Samuel Little and many other people we've talked 443 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:10,719 about on this podcast who start at one place and then continue escalating, ultimately 444 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:16,679 crossing over the line from rape into murder. It's very chilling, even just 445 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:22,719 this short article from the Plain Dealer. This is a very bold thing to 446 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:30,280 do at two o'clock in the afternoon in August. That takes real boldness to 447 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:34,559 be willing to try to abduct someone in broad daylight, right in the middle 448 00:37:34,559 --> 00:37:39,000 of the day. I feel absolutely horrible for this poor young woman who had 449 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:45,360 to undergo what was undoubtedly an absolutely terrifying ordeal. We are definitely interested in 450 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:53,440 knowing more about Walter Leo Jackson and the crimes for which he was imprisoned for 451 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:58,800 anybody who may have missed it in our last episodes with Kate. I want 452 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,840 to just go ahead and lay out a couple of his dates rate here. 453 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:09,800 He was imprison in several different time frames, some of which do exclude him 454 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:15,480 from the Colonial Parkway murders. So I'll go ahead and go down the dates 455 00:38:15,519 --> 00:38:20,480 in which he was imprison and this was released by the FBI. So Walter 456 00:38:20,599 --> 00:38:27,719 Leo Jackson was in prison from January nineteen eighty four to February nineteen eighty nine. 457 00:38:28,599 --> 00:38:32,559 That does exclude him from incidents one, two, and three in the 458 00:38:32,599 --> 00:38:37,360 Colonial Parkway murders, but that does have him out in August of nineteen eighty 459 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:43,840 nine, which is when the incident number four Anna, Maria Phelps and Daniel 460 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:49,639 Lower took place. Jackson was also in prison from May nineteen ninety four to 461 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:55,159 September nineteen ninety four, so he's excluded from any crimes that occurred during that 462 00:38:55,239 --> 00:39:00,840 timeframe. We also know he was imprisoned from August two thousand to May two 463 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:07,079 thousand and seven and then May twenty twelve to March twenty eighteen, and the 464 00:39:07,119 --> 00:39:10,159 prison sentence for that was as a direct result of the crime we just read 465 00:39:10,199 --> 00:39:16,239 to you about. It should be noted that he was out and free walking 466 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:22,079 around from June nineteen ninety five until August of two thousand and I think that's 467 00:39:22,199 --> 00:39:29,920 very interesting. And three of the cases of missing and murdered women in Virginia 468 00:39:30,559 --> 00:39:35,519 that took place during that time period. In addition to Julie Williams and Lollywinins, 469 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,880 we're the murder of Ashley Showalter, Reynolds, Thelmas Groggins, and Anne 470 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:45,480 Carolyn and McDaniel, three that have been commonly tied together under their Route twenty 471 00:39:45,559 --> 00:39:50,159 nine Stoker Moniker, and we want to spend some time in the coming weeks 472 00:39:50,199 --> 00:39:54,719 exploring the Route twenty nine Stalker case. Again, listen for that in upcoming 473 00:39:54,760 --> 00:40:00,320 episodes, because it's certainly a possibility that Jackson could be involved in the Route 474 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:07,920 twenty nine stalker case. It's very disturbing that someone who is a clear serial 475 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:13,880 offender is in and out of jail in the way that Jackson was. Just 476 00:40:14,119 --> 00:40:19,079 have a hard time believing that a multiple offender could be in jail, serve 477 00:40:19,119 --> 00:40:23,880 a few years out again, reoffend, be convicted, sent back to jail. 478 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:29,199 At some point you just have to lock this guy up and throw away 479 00:40:29,199 --> 00:40:32,679 the key. He's just not someone who is able to turn his life around, 480 00:40:32,679 --> 00:40:37,320 and he just continues to offend. And as we all know, there 481 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:44,400 are far more sexual assaults that occur than are reported, so it's quite possible 482 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:50,880 that Jackson is involved in a number of other sexual assaults and potential murders as 483 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:57,719 well. I know law enforcement is looking at Jackson again. I would remind 484 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:04,400 everybody it's not just about putting offenders away. Jackson's been dead now for several 485 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:10,440 years. It's also providing answers to families that have been awaiting answers in some 486 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:16,199 cases for decades, and that comfort that is provided to those families is very 487 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:22,920 meaningful if someone was sexually assaulted or murdered by Jackson, they have a right 488 00:41:23,039 --> 00:41:30,960 to know that Jackson has died and that he did reoffend a number of times. 489 00:41:30,159 --> 00:41:35,719 But we have answers for you in terms of what happened in your own 490 00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,000 case. To Bill. One of the things that I was very interested in 491 00:41:39,039 --> 00:41:44,880 this press conference was the fact that the FBI did release as part of their 492 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:51,840 seeking information on Walter Leo Jackson poster. They mentioned the fact that he had 493 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:57,760 at least two vehicles associated with him, the nineteen eighty four Chestnut Brown AMC 494 00:41:58,039 --> 00:42:02,519 Eagle and the nineteen seventy nine Acuna Line two fifty van. I can't help 495 00:42:02,519 --> 00:42:07,079 call in that the serial killer van. They also mentioned that he had a 496 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:13,599 history of using temporary tags, of altering license plates, and frequently changing vehicles. 497 00:42:14,119 --> 00:42:17,119 In your opinion, was the FBI sort of subtly trying to position him 498 00:42:17,159 --> 00:42:22,239 as a candidate for the Route twenty nine stalker. I'm not sure that's the 499 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:27,039 case in this example. I also think they may be cognizant of the fact 500 00:42:27,119 --> 00:42:32,119 that plates were recorded by cameras going in and out of the Shenandoah National Park, 501 00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:37,239 but at least one of the cameras was out the weekend that Julie Williams 502 00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:40,599 and Lolly Winings were murdered. So I think they're trying to give themselves some 503 00:42:40,679 --> 00:42:46,559 wiggle room in that they may not actually have video or still photographs that show 504 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:52,719 via the cameras these vehicles going in and out of the park. As Kate 505 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,760 mentioned to us when we spoke to her recently, she did say that in 506 00:42:55,800 --> 00:43:00,480 the Daryl David Rice example, they made a big deal about the thing that 507 00:43:00,519 --> 00:43:07,280 they had spotted Rice's vehicle going in and out of the park. In mentioning 508 00:43:07,519 --> 00:43:13,119 the switching around to plates and using temporary tags, it almost felt like they 509 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:19,119 might have been trying to cover up the possibility that they might not have good 510 00:43:19,519 --> 00:43:23,800 still photos or video of Jackson's vehicles going in and out of the park. 511 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:29,920 I think that's a pretty good assessment. I am interested, though, if 512 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:34,079 they are going to start looking at him as a potential handidate for the Route 513 00:43:34,079 --> 00:43:37,519 twenty nine stalker. I know that we have a subset of people out on 514 00:43:37,559 --> 00:43:43,639 the Internet who are very interested in exploring the possibility that maybe Rexhireman, the 515 00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,679 Long Island serial killing suspect, may be responsible for the Route twenty nine stockings. 516 00:43:46,679 --> 00:43:50,440 I feel like that's maybe a little bit of a stretch, but I 517 00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,360 think it would be interesting to see. Is there anything in those cases that 518 00:43:54,239 --> 00:44:00,280 the FBI can run down and try to figure out can we definitively rule in 519 00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:05,880 or out? Agreed? And I think I'd love to return to further discussion 520 00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:10,119 on the Rex Huerman gilg Beach four Long Island serial killer case as well. 521 00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:17,079 Lots of interesting developments in that case recently discussion for another time. Absolutely, 522 00:44:17,559 --> 00:44:22,239 we do have a whole lot to discuss, and so look for another episode 523 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:29,679 of Mind over Murder dropping soon wherever you get your podcasts. In the meantime, 524 00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:30,679 if you like what we're doing, please make sure that you leave us 525 00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:35,760 a five star rating or review on your nearest podcast platform. Please make sure 526 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:37,760 that you do buy some of our merch from Tea Public because that does help 527 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:44,719 us keep the lights on literally sometimes as well as figuratively. And look for 528 00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,360 some more information coming soon about future events that we've got going on here in 529 00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:51,519 the great State of Virginia. That's going to do it for this episode of 530 00:44:51,519 --> 00:44:54,440 Mind Never Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next 531 00:44:54,480 --> 00:45:09,320 time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. 532 00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:15,599 Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is 533 00:45:15,639 --> 00:45:21,079 by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder 534 00:45:21,199 --> 00:45:25,519 is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, 535 00:45:25,679 --> 00:45:30,400 Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial 536 00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:35,280 Parkway murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter 537 00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:39,760 at Bill Thomas. Five six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.