You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas.
I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now
trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other
victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway
murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together
with Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a
researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social
media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner
in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly
and I'm Bill Thomas. It is a perfectly stormy, human in disgusting afternoon
here in Southeast Virginia. What's it doing for you up there in Connecticut?
Mister h oh, it's beautiful, It's summary. It's like eighty six three
blue sky, buffy white clouds, quite lovely. You're getting better weather than
we have had here recently. It has been a nasty scorching, sweltering mess.
And here I am thinking I want to get back down to Virginia as
soon as possible. Maybe I'll wait a few weeks. Yeah, you may
need to wait a couple of weeks. People, it should get nicer.
It's Virginia weather. Wait five minutes, it'll change. That's what they say
in New England. We want to thank everybody for your excellent feedback on our
two episodes with Kate Miles about the breaks in the Shenandoah case. Everybody has
been very interested and enthusiastic. We do have some additional questions that people who
scent to Kate, which we will get to her as soon as possible,
and if we can get Kate to join us one more time, we certainly
will shoot for that. Bill, how do you feel about everything that has
happened here with the Shenandoah case, having Kate on and having some answers in
this case, it's whenever we get big news like this it always knocks us
for a loop. Having Kate Miles back on mind of a murder was really
a lot of fun. And even though we're discussing something that's very serious.
I think giving Kate, who is probably the greatest expert on the Shenandoah murders
case outside of law enforcement. Back on the podcast was really a great experience,
and I can tell because questions continue to come in that our listeners have
a lot more questions for Kate, if anything. Having Kate on twice makes
me want to have her on for a third question and answer session because it's
such an interesting case. Obviously, we're thrilled that we're starting to see some
resolution, if you will, of the Shenandoah murders. Twenty eight years is
a long time to wait for answers, so for Julie Williams and Lolly Winan's
family, we hope that there's some degree of answers or relief. It's a
case I think that warrant's further discussion, and I know there's something we want
to get into in today's episode about what we'd like to see for next steps.
We also, of course want to spend a little bit of time talking
about the fact that we have seen now in the last six seven months of
the year, two press conferences from the FBI announcing breaks in significantly cold cases,
shall we say, or I suppose they wouldn't want us say in cold
cases. I guess they would want us to say old cases, because they
say that they've been working on these. But we definitely noticed some similarities between
the two press conferences ours on January eighth and the one announcing the Shenandoah case
just a couple of weeks ago, and so we want to spend a little
bit of time exploring them. I do want to take a minute and kind
of detour down the old case versus cold case route. How do you think
the FBI would want to categorize these? Would they want to admit to these
being cold cases or would they refer to them as something else. I think
I've told you before that years ago when I first got more directly involved in
the Colonial Parkway murders after the FBI lost control of seventy eight HOHIGI graphic crime
scene photos, a story that then broke in Virginia media thanks to our friend
Mike Mather from WTKR News in Norfolk, Virginia. The assistant Special Agent in
charge of the FBI Norfolk office at that time was a guy named Brian Hanlon
So who would have been the number two guy in that office, and he'd
actually taken over as the special agent in charge, the number one guy for
a time as well. Handland said to me, your sister's case is at
the bottom of a very dusty pile, which was an honest answer, although
a hard one to hear. I know that law enforcement always resists the idea
of cold cases, but we've had that cold case excuse thrown back in our
faces so many times that I'm not willing to accept anyone saying there is no
such thing as a cold case. Because behind closed doors, when we're not
on the air here at Mindover Murder, various agents who've worked this case have
told me your sister's case is a cold case, and so when you hear
it over and over again privately, it's real. Sometimes law enforcement and the
FBI is probably in this category, will insist there is no such thing as
a cold case. I'm not buying it. They've said it too many times
to me privately and other family members. We've come to understand that there is
such a thing as a cold case. I could make a very convincing argument,
I think, as to why cases go cold, but that's a whole
nother discussion. I'm pleased with the developments in the Julie Williams Lollywinen's case.
It's very frustrating for media people like Kate Miles and other reporters who are now
circling back with the FBI with additional questions, and they are getting nowhere.
They are getting complete straight arm. The FBI is refusing to answer questions.
I know one of our journalist friends then shifted gears and reached out to the
United States attorney for the Shenandoah murders case, and he refused to answer questions,
referring them back to the FBI. And of course the FBI is absolutely
refusing to answer any other questions. And I think this is completely unacceptable because
it is not unreasonable for journalists and even podcasters like ourselves to be asking tell
us more about how you solve this case. There's nothing wrong with that.
As a matter of fact, I feel strongly, as we talked about recently,
that the public has are right to know these things. We've been waiting
for answers in the Shenandoah case for twenty eight years. Suddenly they make an
announcement, and I do mean suddenly, and they want to talk for twenty
minutes in a press conference and then sign off and not answer a single edition
question. I think this is completely insane and the lack of transparency here is
really frustrating. Now, I know, Bill, in your previous life,
in your professional life, prior to mind Over Murder and all of this,
you'd mentioned before that you do you have put together press conferences in the past.
How would you have done this differently? If it was up to you
to put together a press conference with regard to these cases, what would you
allow that maybe the FBI didn't allow. What would you have been doing differently
in both examples in the Colonial Parkway murders press conference on January eighth, twenty
twenty four, and then the Shenandoah murders press conference just a couple of weeks
ago. First of all, both of these press conferences were announced on extremely
short notice. Remember, these cases have been around for three decades. We're
closing in on four decades in the Colonial Parkway murders. So it isn't like
these developments and the good news, in other words, solves are good news
if you've been waiting for answers for thirty to thirty seven years. These press
conferences are being announced on essentially a crash basis. They make a lot of
very odd decisions about what they will say to the press before the conference actually
takes place. Remember back in January, when we've got the advanced copy of
what had been sent out, which is basically a media advisory, and I've
done these before. You want to try if you're serious about coverage, and
that's a big if in this example, you want to try to let your
reporters know what is going to be discussed. You might not tell them everything,
but you want to grab their attention. You want them to attend the
press conference, either virtually or in person, or participate in some way.
And actually the FBI seems to have gone out of their way to limit participation.
Even reporter friends said to us at the time of the News and the
Colonial Parkway murders, when they announced that Robin Edwards, David Nobling, and
Teresa Howell's murders were connected to Allen Wade Wilmer Senior, they never called the
case the Colonial Parkway murders. Reporters came back to us and said, if
they had said Colonial Parkway murders, there would have been a lot more coverage
of this case, and there would have been a lot more national coverage because
obviously the Colonial Parkway murders had been around for thirty seven years and have become
a well known case, partly through our efforts and the efforts of Virginia media
and media across the country. So to quietly put out this kind of last
minute I think it was a Monday morning if I'm not mistaken press announcement saying
there's going to be an update on these cases in Isle of Wight, without
ever mentioning who they were talking about, who the victims were, the fact
that this is part of the Colonial park By murders, one begins to think,
Gee, there seems to be a real effort here to limit the amount
of press coverage and even interest from reporters. Yeah, I think that is
very much a fair assessment for anybody who hasn't worked in the same line of
work that you have. When a news advisory goes out and then when a
press kit follows up, for anybody who's not familiar, can you explain what
a news advisory is and what does a press kit look like? An advisory
I'm usually called a media advisory is usually a one pager that goes out electronically
to as many media people as possible. You want typically maximum coverage of your
story. I think that in both of these examples, significant effort went into
not achieving maximum coverage because they actually wanted to just quietly put these stories out
media advisory, which is usually embargoed, and that's a very specific term of
art that says this is going to happen at such and such a time.
Usually you try to give people a couple of days notice. And that did
not happen in either one of these press conferences, and I believe that is
also deliberate on the part of the FBI and the Virginia State Police. They
were meeting with the families several days before they could have sent out a media
advisory with an embargo, that is, you can't write about it or discuss
it until such and such a time. Media people try to be respectful of
these embargoes. So if they say hold for Tuesday morning at ten am,
I'm just making this up. So you might send that out Monday morning so
you can make arrangements to get as many media people participating in covering writing about
Remember, in some cases, if they want to have a television crew there
or a radio team there. They've got to get there and get set up.
You actually want to give them some notice. There is this understanding that
they're not going to write about it, or talk about it, or publicize
it in any way until after the embargo date. When you see things like
this happening where the press conferences are set up on extremely short notice, this
is breaking news. You could make that argument, but remember they've been working
on these cases literally for decades. They could have easily built in a few
extra days so that they sent out the media advisory and said, please be
here at this time and place if you want to have a camera crew here
or a live radio team covering the story. If anything, they were doing
exactly the opposite at the same time. We talked to Kate Miles the other
day. In my opinion, Kate Miles is probably the greatest expert on the
Shenandoah case of anyone outside of law enforcement. She wasn't invited to the press
conference, She wasn't even sent an invitation to dial in to the press conference
or watch it online. You begin to realize they're not very serious about getting
the word out. Now, what's weird from my perspective, is I actually
think this is good news, as I said a minute ago, the fact
that the FBI and the Virginia State Police are working back through cold cases,
finding funding through the SAKE program, the Sexual Assault Kit Initiative program, testing
and retesting evidence and finding answers. This is great news. They should be
proud of it. And yet what would my mom say about hiding your light
under a bushel? It seems like they don't want to talk about what I
regard as good news. One further point of clarification there when you say dialed
into a press conference, I know that means something very specific. Can you
explain what that means? To get a number to dial into the conference?
So what they do is they typically will have an Internet address and you have
to sign in identify yourself. So you say, I'm Bill Thomas, I'm
from such and such a radio station, TV station, whatever. They would
be checking your credentials. It's almost like the equivalent of being physically at the
press conference, and they would have a clipboard and they would have here are
all the names of all the people that are expected to be there. Oh
okay, When they say dial in, they mean literally dial in on a
phone Obviously things are much more Internet focused now. A lot of times there'll
be a live stream which would involve then people signing in and using their credentials.
They might need your email address or your phone number or both, as
well as your name and title, what media organization you're representing. But if
you're really looking for maximum coverage, you're trying to reach as many reporters and
media outlets as possible, and you want to encourage people to participate. In
other words, do you think this is important enough news to have a news
conference, then I think you would want to have as much coverage as possible.
In both of these examples, these were run by two separate offices.
It was FBI Norfolk Field Office in the Colonial Parkway murders matter, and it
was FBI Richmond in the Shenandoah murderers coverage. But the approach, the whole
hiding your light under a bushel thing, I think my mom would laugh at
me from heaven for using these expressions. It starts to feel like they actually
don't want coverage, or they certainly don't want maximum coverage. I was preparing
for today's discussion and looking at the two press conferences which are available online,
and we'll link them in the show notes, so you can actually go back
and on YouTube you can watch the entire press conference. They're remarkably short.
They're both only about twenty to twenty three minutes long, which is very short
for a press conference. Again starts to feel like, gee, you guys
aren't really very serious about answering questions here and getting the word out. One
of the things we criticized in the Colonial Parkway murders press conference was there was
something very odd about this set up in the room. There weren't sufficient mics
in the room. It was very difficult to hear what the reporters were asking.
And I got to criticize again here, I've done this. You set
up microphones in the room so that people can step up or pass the wireless
mic around and they can say I'm Andy Fox from WABY and then ask their
question. If you have the room set up and these are professionals, if
you have the room set up in a way that people around the country and
even around the world that are watching this thing live on their computers for the
most part, if they can't hear the questions, it's not a very meaningful
dialogue. And this this is another failure on their part. If you have
a situation like that where it's hard to hear the questions being asked, the
protocol and I'm really going to emphasize this because I've done this. If Kristin
Dilley is a reporter and she's asking me a question and I'm not sure the
audience, which is often well outside the room, cannot hear her original question,
the protocol is to repeat the question. So Kristin will say, how
did you find out about this new information or whatever the question is. The
spokesperson would typically repeat the question so that everybody around the world could hear what
the question was. If you're not doing that, you're not being serious,
and that was very noticeable. We keep calling it the Colonial Parkway murders press
conference. They were doing everything they could not to call that case the Colonial
Parkway murders. They kept referring to it as the Isle of White murders,
And as we discussed here previously, no one has ever called this case the
Isle of White murders. We're just making stuff up now, and we're making
stuff up because we don't want to refer to this case as the Colonial Parkway
murders, and I'm sorry I didn't make up the name either, but that
is the name that the media and the public know that case. As so,
there seems to be a real effort made not to take questions seriously and
not respond to them in a serious way. I think this goes back to
what Kate was referring to, and I love that she used this. I'm
going to start using this term as well. I love the fact that she
said she would love for the FBI and all law enforcement agencies involved to show
their work. Yes, which is an admonition that we hear in math classrooms
at high schools, for example, where I teach. But I think there
is a really excellent point there. I would love to know. We all
would like to know how did Walter Leo Jackson make his way on to your
radar? The guy was in jail n Ohio multiple times, and not nearly
long enough each time, but we'll get into that a couple of minutes.
How did this guy come on to your radar? There is something very unsatisfying
but also very hegy about saying here's a suspect. We have found this person.
He's been linked via DNA, but we're looking for more information about him.
But that's it. They didn't give any other bits of information. And
Kate had a whole list of things that she said she had basically written to
the FBI in answer to this. She, among other things, wanted to
know what evidence was retested, what DNA was ultimately retested, Why did you
use private labs instead of the Quantico labs? Which private lab did you go
to before you went to the one that you went with. Were the results
a loaded into codis? Will they be compared to other crimes in the area.
And that's just some of the ones that Kate had asked about. She'd
asked for many more. Why isn't the FBI willing to answer those questions?
Why aren't they willing to show their work? I think it's a great,
worthy, natural question to ask. One of our listeners actually said earlier today
that she wants us to design assureds FBI, please show your work. The
thing is what's crazy, and it makes me completely insane. Is I really
do mean this? This is outstanding work in both of these cases. They're
going back retesting evidence and solving cold cases that are decades old, and we
have raised them for that work. It almost feels like they're not proud of
their work, which I don't really believe to be the case. Yeah,
this is bananas. You're talking two of the biggest cases in Virginia, two
of the most well known cases in Virginia, and you guys are starting to
crack them. Please be proud of this trumpet, this this is important.
You're right. I don't understand why the being cagey about it. I'd be
seeing it from the rooftops if it were made. And what's strange too,
is that when questions were asked and we talked about this before, Andy Fox
and other reporters asking when did Alan Wade Wilmer Senior first move on to your
radar and the Colonial Parkway murders, The question was asked twice and the spokeswoman
refused to answer the question twice. I'm sorry, that's ludicrous. It's not
an unfair question, it's not a gotcha question. But of course they didn't
want to talk about the fact that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior was suspect number one
in the disappearance of Keith Colin. Cassandra Haley, as we talked about last
week on mind Over Murder, now this is getting more coverage in the press
because we're calling them out on this. They even told the families privately nine
percent certain. And I understand that not every family member who was there participated
in that discussion. Was said. It was quoted to me directly. I
certainly didn't make it up. Law enforcement seems to want to avoid discussing anything
that might hint at a shortcoming in terms of their investigation. And my attitude
is, oh, come on. First of all, these cases are twenty
eight to thirty seven years old. Of course things went wrong, which is
how we get to a case being twenty eight to thirty seven years old.
And at the same time, and we've talked about this with experts here on
Mind Over Murder, the science, the forensics, DNA testing have gotten so
much better. There's a reason why these advances are taking place. But in
failing to even highlight a bit of the backstory about how they got to where
they got to, I think the FBI and the Virginia State Police are really
failing the public because explain how this happened. It's also ludicrous that these cases,
which go back decades, they're blowing through these press conferences in twenty three
minute. It's because they don't want to answer questions. That kind of sucks.
It's not good public policy, it doesn't help law enforcement's reputation. And
I know our friends in law enforcement complain all the time that the public doesn't
seem to trust them. This is the kind of crap that makes people not
trust the FBI, the Virginia State Police, and law enforcement in general because
they feel like they're not being straightforward with us because they're not. You're listening
to mind over Murder. Will be right back after this word from our sponsors.
We're back here at mindover Murder. Before we get back to the podcast,
just wanted to remind you that we have a go fund and the effort
going on right now. This campaign is designed to help us raise funds to
help promote Mind over Murder and specifically to push the Colonial Parkway murders investigation forward.
We love it if you could support us in any way that you can.
Any donation from five dollars to whatever you can afford is very much appreciated
and will be incredibly helpful. The link is in the show notes and in
our social media pages, and as always, thanks for your support. Now
back to mind over murder. He made an excellent comparison to the Golden State
killer case and how meticulous the investigators were when they talked about here's how we
solved the case. Here's how we picked up the DNA, here's how it
was tested, here's the genetic genealogy. They can't give you chapter and verse,
of course, but in a case like this, and you had mentioned
this last time with Kate as well, both of these offenders are dead.
Walter Leo Jackson and Alan Waid Wilmer Senior are dead. There is not going
to be a trial. You are hurting zero things by letting us just get
the baarrest. Hint of how you went about making these answers come about for
these families, and you are I think, actually doing a disservice if you're
not willing to spend a little more time and explain. Look, here's how
we did it. Science is better. This is the process that we went
through. Any questions we can answer about that, It does feel very much
like the public is being done a disservice too. Both of those press conferences,
if they were properly run, should have run at least two hours.
They should have taken questions until the reporters had no more questions to ask.
They also should have given sufficient notice to the press in DC and in Virginia
so that they could be there. When you announce a pre conference with a
couple of hours notice, that means that a lot of reporters who've already gotten
their assignments for that day, they have editors or news directors that tell them,
please go out and work this story. So in a lot of those
examples, those reporters that have already been committed to something else, so they're
out with their crews doing research, shooting video, recording audio, whatever it
is. And when you announce a press conference, you're basically springing it on
the public and on the media outlets. So when you're announcing a press conference
two, three, four hours in advance, that's not sufficient notice. And
after a while that starts to feel deliberate, like you aren't proud of the
work that you've done. And my heart of heart says that's not true.
That the teams that have worked these cases are proud of the work that they've
done. But whoever's in tron charge of media relations has decided, oh,
we want to keep this on a down low. We don't really want to
talk about the case because someone might ask us a question that highlights one of
the areas where we screwed up. Come on, we need to be grown
up about this. As I've said before, I screw up plenty in my
life and what I try to do. I'm not claiming to be perfect here.
My partner, Pamela, and my family can tell you long stories.
But when I do screw up, I try to calm down and let people
know that I'm sorry for what happened and that I will try to learn from
that and try to make sure that mistake doesn't happen again. The FBI seems
completely incapable of ever approaching anything like that level of grace where they just admit,
Hey, we had Alan Waide Wilmer Senior in custody. We questioned him
his premises, we gave them two polygraphic examinations. But based on the evidence
that we had and the science available to us in nineteen eighty eight, we
did not have enough to charge this man, so we had to let him
go. I don't think that's an unreasonable explanation and probably not far from the
truth of what happened, but for them to refuse to acknowledge how and when
Alan Wade Wilmer Senior first moved on to their radar. This is absurd and
insulting. I agree, and I also want to take a moment here to
speak out on behalf of what was unsaid at the press conference about the Shenandoah,
which is that the FBI did not acknowledge in any way or apologize.
An apology would be far too much to ask, but they did not even
acknowledge the fact that Darryl David Rice, who was suspect number one in this
case from the very beginning. They did not offer any apology, to accountability,
for explanation for why they continued for years and years to make Daryl David
Rice seem to be the person who was responsible for this when it has been
proven unequivocally by DNA he was not responsible. That feels worse to me than
failing to acknowledge that Wilmer was suspect number one. They actively ruined Darryl David
Rice's life, and they didn't offer anything in the way of are bad so
sorry things happen? I think the first thing that I asked you because that
this all happened when I was on vacation with my family. I think the
first thing that I asked you was did they say anything about Daryl David Rice?
And the answer, of course was like, well, no, of
course they didn't. But that was really disappointing to me. Again, acknowledgment
of past mistakes, it does show a level of grace and maturity frankly,
that the Bureau kind of doesn't seem to have right at the moment, and
come on, you ruin the guy's life offers something even without an apology,
which would never cross the lips of the effort, would I think them making
it clear that Darryl David Rice is not a suspect in the murder of Julie
Williams and Lolly Winans. I was about to say, nor has he been
for a number of years, but again, I can't ever seem to see
them doing that. It's really unfortunate. I don't know where this institutional arrogance
and rigidity come from. They really have to do better than this. They
are not even acknowledging past mistakes. I did find it interesting that at the
press conference regarding the Shenandoah that they specifically mentioned that there was no connection to
the murders of Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski. Yeah, I was about to
go there. I found that interesting. I don't object. I actually appreciate
more. I actually want more information. So oh right, it was upsetting
to hear their names mentioned in that context. I appreciated it. Nonetheless,
were you given the option to dial into this press conference because of that possible
connection with Kathy and Becky Ornow? I was not given that option. I
was given the number by the friends of ours and the media. I thought
about it, but given the friction between the FBI and myself over the past
year, things are better now. But as I've mentioned before, a year
ago, things were very heated and it got really ugly and even threatening behind
closed doors, which I was not happy about. So even though I had
the number and the code to dial into the call, I decided not to
call into the Shenandoah press conference. As we've talked about before, the FBA
I deliberately tied me up on the phone for two and a half hours during
the Colonial Parkway murders press conference, and again no disrespect to the agent who
provided me within in depth briefing, but coincidentally set for one thirty pm on
the day of the press conference, so that I couldn't listen to or watch
the press conference until many hours later. These things happen over and over again.
They're not a coincidence. They are deliberate, and these reindeer games get
really old. In answer to your question in the Shenandoah press conference, I
had the information but made the decision not to call in. Actually we did
have one of the many questions that came in for Kate, there was also
one that came in for you, and it was a listener who wanted to
know. Okay, Bill, during that two hours when you were tied up
with the case agent, can you say what was discussed? And I don't
think you've ever even told me what was discussed. It was an in depth
briefing from our case agent. That's all I'm going to say. Continuing with
Walter Leo Jackson, we are very lucky that we have a number of excellent
people who are willing to provide us some additional help and legwork on a research
basis, because while we love being able to do the podcast, we are
not always able to devote the amount of time that we would like to doing
every single bit of research that it requires, and so we do reach out
to ask listeners from time to time for help, and we were lucky enough
to have a well intentioned research assistant reach out to us and give us some
information on Walter LEO. Jackson, who has been identified as the culprit behind
the murders of Julie Williams and Lolly Winans. They found a very interesting and
quite disturbing article from the Cleveland, Ohio Plane Dealer from August twenty fourth,
twenty eleven, detailing the last of the crimes that resulted in him being imprisoned
from twenty twelve to the end of his life at twenty eighteen. We wanted
to share that information with all of you, although we would warn you,
of course, that this is quite disturbing. So this is from the Cleveland,
Ohio Plane Dealer, August twenty fourth, twenty Eleven's is from the Law
and Order section. It's quite a short article. The headline reads man accused
of abducting raping team. Walter L. Jackson, sixty three, of North
Olmsted pleaded not guilty Tuesday to two counts of kidnapping four counts of rape and
two counts of felonious assault in Cuyahoga County Common please Court for crimes against an
eight eighteen year old Cleveland girl on August tenth. Prosecutors said Jackson approached the
girl at two pm at West fifty eighth Street and Madison Avenue and asked if
she needed a ride. The girl got in Jackson's van and they went to
the parking lot at Don's Lighthouse. Jackson reportedly bound her legs, put handcuffs
on her, gagged her mouth, and struck her in the head with a
blunt object, and engaged insects, said Ryan Maday, spokesperson for the Cuyahoga
County Prosecutor's Office. Jackson drove to West forty sixth Street in Train Avenue,
where the girl escaped, Still bound, gagged and naked. Jackson tried to
get her but was spotted by several witnesses. Miday said Jackson returned to the
van and drove away, but a witness followed him in a car and used
his on star system to contact police. He followed him to Rocky River,
where police arrested Jackson on Worcester Road. Jackson was being held in jail on
two hundred and fifty thousand dollars bail. Medeisai. Jackson has a conviction for
felonious assault in two thousand. A pre trial date has not yet been scheduled.
It sounds so much like the Julie Williams Lolly Winan's murder with the use
of the handcuffs and duct tape restraining her sexual assault. And this guy,
as we understand it, we're learning more about him, but he sounds like
a repeat offender who has been involved in rapes and kidnappings for years. I
know. One of the things that Kate had mentioned to us recently is she
doubts that the escalation to murder which we saw in the Julie Williams Lolly Winans
case is the only time that Jackson would have crossed that line from kidnapping rape
into murder. Also reminds me of Joseph D'Angelo, the Golden State Killer,
and a number of other people like Samuel Little and many other people we've talked
about on this podcast who start at one place and then continue escalating, ultimately
crossing over the line from rape into murder. It's very chilling, even just
this short article from the Plain Dealer. This is a very bold thing to
do at two o'clock in the afternoon in August. That takes real boldness to
be willing to try to abduct someone in broad daylight, right in the middle
of the day. I feel absolutely horrible for this poor young woman who had
to undergo what was undoubtedly an absolutely terrifying ordeal. We are definitely interested in
knowing more about Walter Leo Jackson and the crimes for which he was imprisoned for
anybody who may have missed it in our last episodes with Kate. I want
to just go ahead and lay out a couple of his dates rate here.
He was imprison in several different time frames, some of which do exclude him
from the Colonial Parkway murders. So I'll go ahead and go down the dates
in which he was imprison and this was released by the FBI. So Walter
Leo Jackson was in prison from January nineteen eighty four to February nineteen eighty nine.
That does exclude him from incidents one, two, and three in the
Colonial Parkway murders, but that does have him out in August of nineteen eighty
nine, which is when the incident number four Anna, Maria Phelps and Daniel
Lower took place. Jackson was also in prison from May nineteen ninety four to
September nineteen ninety four, so he's excluded from any crimes that occurred during that
timeframe. We also know he was imprisoned from August two thousand to May two
thousand and seven and then May twenty twelve to March twenty eighteen, and the
prison sentence for that was as a direct result of the crime we just read
to you about. It should be noted that he was out and free walking
around from June nineteen ninety five until August of two thousand and I think that's
very interesting. And three of the cases of missing and murdered women in Virginia
that took place during that time period. In addition to Julie Williams and Lollywinins,
we're the murder of Ashley Showalter, Reynolds, Thelmas Groggins, and Anne
Carolyn and McDaniel, three that have been commonly tied together under their Route twenty
nine Stoker Moniker, and we want to spend some time in the coming weeks
exploring the Route twenty nine Stalker case. Again, listen for that in upcoming
episodes, because it's certainly a possibility that Jackson could be involved in the Route
twenty nine stalker case. It's very disturbing that someone who is a clear serial
offender is in and out of jail in the way that Jackson was. Just
have a hard time believing that a multiple offender could be in jail, serve
a few years out again, reoffend, be convicted, sent back to jail.
At some point you just have to lock this guy up and throw away
the key. He's just not someone who is able to turn his life around,
and he just continues to offend. And as we all know, there
are far more sexual assaults that occur than are reported, so it's quite possible
that Jackson is involved in a number of other sexual assaults and potential murders as
well. I know law enforcement is looking at Jackson again. I would remind
everybody it's not just about putting offenders away. Jackson's been dead now for several
years. It's also providing answers to families that have been awaiting answers in some
cases for decades, and that comfort that is provided to those families is very
meaningful if someone was sexually assaulted or murdered by Jackson, they have a right
to know that Jackson has died and that he did reoffend a number of times.
But we have answers for you in terms of what happened in your own
case. To Bill. One of the things that I was very interested in
this press conference was the fact that the FBI did release as part of their
seeking information on Walter Leo Jackson poster. They mentioned the fact that he had
at least two vehicles associated with him, the nineteen eighty four Chestnut Brown AMC
Eagle and the nineteen seventy nine Acuna Line two fifty van. I can't help
call in that the serial killer van. They also mentioned that he had a
history of using temporary tags, of altering license plates, and frequently changing vehicles.
In your opinion, was the FBI sort of subtly trying to position him
as a candidate for the Route twenty nine stalker. I'm not sure that's the
case in this example. I also think they may be cognizant of the fact
that plates were recorded by cameras going in and out of the Shenandoah National Park,
but at least one of the cameras was out the weekend that Julie Williams
and Lolly Winings were murdered. So I think they're trying to give themselves some
wiggle room in that they may not actually have video or still photographs that show
via the cameras these vehicles going in and out of the park. As Kate
mentioned to us when we spoke to her recently, she did say that in
the Daryl David Rice example, they made a big deal about the thing that
they had spotted Rice's vehicle going in and out of the park. In mentioning
the switching around to plates and using temporary tags, it almost felt like they
might have been trying to cover up the possibility that they might not have good
still photos or video of Jackson's vehicles going in and out of the park.
I think that's a pretty good assessment. I am interested, though, if
they are going to start looking at him as a potential handidate for the Route
twenty nine stalker. I know that we have a subset of people out on
the Internet who are very interested in exploring the possibility that maybe Rexhireman, the
Long Island serial killing suspect, may be responsible for the Route twenty nine stockings.
I feel like that's maybe a little bit of a stretch, but I
think it would be interesting to see. Is there anything in those cases that
the FBI can run down and try to figure out can we definitively rule in
or out? Agreed? And I think I'd love to return to further discussion
on the Rex Huerman gilg Beach four Long Island serial killer case as well.
Lots of interesting developments in that case recently discussion for another time. Absolutely,
we do have a whole lot to discuss, and so look for another episode
of Mind over Murder dropping soon wherever you get your podcasts. In the meantime,
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some more information coming soon about future events that we've got going on here in
the great State of Virginia. That's going to do it for this episode of
Mind Never Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next
time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions.
Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is
by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder
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at Bill Thomas. Five six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.