1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,719 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,719 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,079 Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,799 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,840 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:48,520 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley and 10 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:52,880 I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined again by doctor Katherine Ramslin, author, 11 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:58,119 professor and a forensic psychologist. Doctor Ramslin, welcome back to the podcast. 12 00:00:58,759 --> 00:01:02,920 I'm glad to be here. There is a great stimulating conversation. Well, 13 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:07,640 for we are so thrilled that you decided to join us. So when we 14 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:12,480 left off, we were talking about these fascinating weekends you do something called Haunted 15 00:01:12,799 --> 00:01:19,239 crime Scene Weekends. So what is that all about? The Haunted crime Scene 16 00:01:19,239 --> 00:01:23,680 Weekend came out of us a couple of books that I wrote with Mark Nesbitt, 17 00:01:23,799 --> 00:01:27,079 who runs the Gettysburg Ghost Tours, used to be a park ranger at 18 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:33,519 Gettysburg. He's written many ghosts of Gettysburg books from stories of people tell them 19 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:37,280 as they come off the fields. And Mark used to be a skeptic. 20 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:42,439 You hear enough stories and see enough things changes you. But we thought, 21 00:01:42,519 --> 00:01:47,359 because there's this really interesting case very close to Gettysburg, this is how it 22 00:01:47,359 --> 00:01:51,239 all began. It was these three children who were killed and laid in the 23 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:53,640 woods, and then nobody knew who they were. There was no way to 24 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,079 find out who they were. This is back in the nineteen thirties, and 25 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,719 close by and al Tuna there was a murder suicide. Again, who are 26 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:07,120 these people? Were they related? Some clothing turned up in a suitcase, 27 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:09,479 etcetera, etcetera. So we thought we'll also would be a great kind of 28 00:02:09,599 --> 00:02:14,840 case to bring people in. We can take them to those sites where the 29 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:19,439 children were, where their graves are, how they were related to the Altuna 30 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,039 couple, et cetera. Because we had the story from the police Museum. 31 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:24,800 We had a lot of stuff from that. That's how it started. We 32 00:02:24,879 --> 00:02:29,319 thought, oh, we're going to do this, this same scene o burned 33 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:34,280 over again, but it turned out the same people kept coming back to the 34 00:02:34,599 --> 00:02:38,280 weekend, so we had to mix it up a little bit, and so 35 00:02:38,439 --> 00:02:43,759 then we began to actually build crime scenes they could they could look at it. 36 00:02:43,879 --> 00:02:46,240 We did the one that's known as the Minister and the Choir Singer out 37 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:51,360 of New Jersey where this minister in Chuiir Singer were found laid out in a 38 00:02:51,439 --> 00:02:55,680 lover's lane and her talking cut out. I remember about and as currently an 39 00:02:55,800 --> 00:03:02,520 unsolved case, multiple suspects from approximately what era was this in tens Ish? 40 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:13,120 Yeah, I mean there was a family that was tried but acquitted wife well 41 00:03:13,159 --> 00:03:19,199 to do wife of the minister, husband of the choir singer. So we 42 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:23,240 had and we had multiple suspects because there was a stalker on her as well. 43 00:03:23,759 --> 00:03:27,879 There's a lot of really cool evidence for that. So then we thought, 44 00:03:27,879 --> 00:03:30,120 okay, let's have them. Since it's unsolved, let's have everybody come 45 00:03:30,159 --> 00:03:34,439 in and do what they need to do. So my part is the forensic 46 00:03:34,479 --> 00:03:37,960 part. I do a forensic presentation. One time I brought the coroner with 47 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:42,319 me talk about autopsy reports and whatnot. That's my job is doing. Here's 48 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:46,400 the forensic part. Mark and Carol his wife, and Patty the medium come 49 00:03:46,439 --> 00:03:51,639 in and teach people how to look at the scene from a different angle because 50 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,240 at this point we're at a dead end with traditional methods. Can we bring 51 00:03:55,439 --> 00:04:01,199 paranormal methods into this and so that's what the weekend is comprised of, and 52 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:06,840 we've done so. Then we did the Colonial Parkway case past April. We 53 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:13,879 took that on because again multiple strands to it. We had, I think 54 00:04:13,879 --> 00:04:17,720 we had enough people to each It was assigned one of the couples and that 55 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:21,240 they had to work on that case and then we would bring them together and 56 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:26,519 then put them back apart, and so it certainly was a long process. 57 00:04:26,959 --> 00:04:30,199 My job again is too. We did maps, we did here's the evidence 58 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:34,279 that we have. Here are some of the We didn't give them suspect information 59 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:39,240 because we want them to come to it clean. But we also knew that 60 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,199 if they did sheet and look it up on the internet during the night or 61 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,800 something, they weren't going to get they weren't going to solve it. Because 62 00:04:45,879 --> 00:04:49,839 it's not solved. So that's the idea of the weekend is we're coming together. 63 00:04:50,519 --> 00:04:55,680 You're going to learn everything we know forensically about this case. You're going 64 00:04:55,759 --> 00:05:01,160 to and I do also present cognitive errors, processing observation. I present the 65 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:05,560 forensic psychology of these cases as well, and we just we keep getting people 66 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:11,959 coming back. Were the same people, which is fine. We always have 67 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,839 to think of a new case. You need new content then, because you 68 00:05:14,879 --> 00:05:18,120 have a lot of the same attendees, they love this obviously. So what 69 00:05:18,199 --> 00:05:23,800 were some of the conclusions that your group of participants true about our case? 70 00:05:23,879 --> 00:05:27,639 I'm really interested. One of the things that I did is I looked at 71 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,560 data from body Farms and the forgive Me. I don't know the names of 72 00:05:31,639 --> 00:05:36,439 everybody aside from your sister, but the couple that was found with the blanket 73 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:46,040 over them Marian Daniel at body Farm information on body farms where they lay out 74 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:51,639 the dead and various dispositions to study time since death, decomposition, raised bug 75 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:57,399 activity, etc. And there was a case where they had laid out bodies 76 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:02,279 in a variety of dispositions and it was in the right climate and about the 77 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:08,759 right period of time to compare to that finding, And it was very clear 78 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:15,360 to me that the covering over the body on the body Farm yielded enough information 79 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,319 to know things about wounds and whatnot. And so what we have with the 80 00:06:20,199 --> 00:06:26,160 was it the fourth couple were the fourth with the fourth couple is police saying 81 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:30,000 we got nothing off the Like, how did you get nothing off of that? 82 00:06:30,319 --> 00:06:33,399 You would there would have been blood residue, There would have been human 83 00:06:33,439 --> 00:06:38,639 remains on that covering. There would have been something that would have given you 84 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:42,600 information like if you're if you want to say, because there was a nick 85 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,800 on a hand that indicated maybe a knife was involved there, if someone had 86 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:51,879 been stabbed in the ribs or the heart, that blanket over them would have 87 00:06:53,079 --> 00:06:57,160 had something on it to indicate that there was blood in that area. Because 88 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:03,319 the evidence from the experiment at the body Farm says bodies covered for this period 89 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:08,879 of time and this kind of a climate will leave residue on the covering. 90 00:07:09,399 --> 00:07:13,160 And so I had that experiment that I brought to a case. I thought, 91 00:07:13,199 --> 00:07:16,439 how can they say there's nothing that there's something there? Where is that 92 00:07:16,519 --> 00:07:20,839 covering? There's probably still something you can get off well. So the investigators 93 00:07:20,839 --> 00:07:25,519 current investigators in the case have said to me they'd love to get ahold of 94 00:07:25,519 --> 00:07:28,680 the blanket again. As we understand it. By the way, that's an 95 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:33,079 electric blanket from Daniel's car, and the two bodies were laid out side by 96 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:38,040 side in the woods for a period of six weeks. We know definitely when 97 00:07:38,079 --> 00:07:42,000 they disappeared, and we know when they were found, and it's six weeks, 98 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,720 very hot, very wet that fall. We also understand that there was 99 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:51,240 animal activity, so the blanket may have been pulled off the bodies at some 100 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:56,839 point by animal predators, but they weren't off when the bodies are found, 101 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:01,160 was partially covered. One of them was partially covered, and whenever blood would 102 00:08:01,199 --> 00:08:05,639 have come from wounds would have still been on it even pulled off. And 103 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,759 there's also clothing as well. And we've seen the crime scene photos. Most 104 00:08:09,759 --> 00:08:11,920 people have not, but the crime scene photos were leaked by the FBI, 105 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,639 and we've certainly seen them. It's pretty evident there are articles of clothing. 106 00:08:16,759 --> 00:08:22,000 The bodies clearly are badly decomposed, and you can see a skull or two 107 00:08:22,319 --> 00:08:24,480 in the photographs. It's been a while since I've looked at them. I 108 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:28,879 tried not to look at them. There are articles of clothing, and there 109 00:08:28,079 --> 00:08:33,159 is the blanket. And one of the experts had said to me fairly recently, 110 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:37,080 I'd love to get a hold of that blanket and go back over it 111 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:41,960 using m VAC technology, for example. And we know the folks at m 112 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:45,399 BACK and they would love to help in any way that they could. There 113 00:08:45,399 --> 00:08:48,080 would be something. I believe there would be something, but it's very difficult 114 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:52,399 to get a straight answer out of in this case, the Virginia State Police 115 00:08:52,919 --> 00:08:58,399 and the FBI about what the status is of advanced forensic testing. I think 116 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:03,080 sometimes when they say we don't have anything, I think they're reflecting we don't 117 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:07,039 have anything by the standards of nineteen eighty nine. But I don't think that 118 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:13,279 phrase we don't have anything is operative in twenty twenty two, correct. So 119 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,639 that was one of the things that at least I brought to it. There 120 00:09:16,799 --> 00:09:24,320 was some psychic impressions that the missing couple were buried in a specific location, 121 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:30,559 not close to the parkway, but again that's a psychic saying it. You'd 122 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,399 have to go to the site and do some DIC and take it a cadaver 123 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:39,480 dog. That's if I believed that information was good for any particular reason, 124 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:43,960 then I would take a human remains specialist dog in the scene to see if 125 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:48,240 there was anything to be found. Even though you're usually the skeptic when it 126 00:09:48,279 --> 00:09:52,559 comes to the psychic, I'm an open skeptic. I'm not a closed sketter. 127 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:56,039 I want there to be ghosts out there telling us, Stubb, are 128 00:09:56,039 --> 00:10:01,240 you kidding? The world would be an amazing place if that were too You 129 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:07,000 never know. I actually just Hollywood. I once they brought me into pitch 130 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:15,000 a show about this kind of idea of using paranormal techniques alongside forensic techniques, 131 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,759 and they were so excited, this is going to be a great show because 132 00:10:18,799 --> 00:10:22,559 the ghosts solved it right at the end. Maybe the ghosts could guide the 133 00:10:22,639 --> 00:10:33,159 forensic psychologists experts is a medium, this is real life. So in five 134 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:37,279 minutes my pitch meeting was over. Wow, did they want the ghost to 135 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:43,759 The idea is that if you separate people out in different rooms, you give 136 00:10:43,799 --> 00:10:52,360 them different types of paranormal methods, and they come up with similar stuff although 137 00:10:52,399 --> 00:10:56,240 they're not talking to one another. Did they come up that's interesting? Yeah, 138 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:01,879 it isn't necessarily mean anything, but it's interesting. If you're working with 139 00:11:01,919 --> 00:11:07,759 the medium who has in fact had some success working with police. That's somebody 140 00:11:07,799 --> 00:11:13,639 you could listen to. However, sometimes they overstate what they actually were able 141 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:16,960 to do. But I've talked to cops who say they have worked with mediums 142 00:11:18,039 --> 00:11:20,559 and it has been helpful. I have talked to cops. You've said that, 143 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:26,399 so I'm open. I want something like that to happen, definitely, 144 00:11:26,039 --> 00:11:31,399 And we have had people in recent years approach us, not the least of 145 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,200 which is our odd ball to which we were referring earlier, but we have 146 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:37,200 had people approach us and say, hey, I think you should have a 147 00:11:37,279 --> 00:11:41,799 psychic command or I have talked to a psychic. I know that originally Dorothy 148 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:46,279 Allison, who was used by quite a number of police agencies, was actually 149 00:11:46,279 --> 00:11:50,440 brought in to do some consulting work. And I would say that Bill and 150 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,240 I definitely belong in the hard skeptic category as well when it comes to psychics. 151 00:11:54,279 --> 00:11:58,919 And we address this actually recently in our episodes about tips. When we 152 00:12:00,279 --> 00:12:03,440 send a tip to the FBI, we told our listeners it can't start or 153 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:09,000 end with psychics because you can't prove it. There is no way to prove 154 00:12:09,039 --> 00:12:13,679 it. One way or the other. But you can corroborate they say buried 155 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:20,440 here, you dig and find a body or whatever. But that's my problem 156 00:12:20,639 --> 00:12:26,159 with the psychics that I've worked with, is you're right up to he's telling 157 00:12:26,159 --> 00:12:31,240 me, Oh he's alway's gone. Now, yeah, okay, I got 158 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:35,279 that's the problem. Then why do you waste all the time telling you all 159 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:37,600 that? Why didn't you just give me the location? If you only have 160 00:12:37,799 --> 00:12:45,000 so much energy to say something, why did he say the main thing instead 161 00:12:45,039 --> 00:12:50,799 of wasting our time to the main thing and then disappearing. And that's there's 162 00:12:50,879 --> 00:12:54,720 Annie's voice right there. That's as she's saying, I hate this thing because 163 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:00,799 they get me going and then they're out. Oh inconveniently, they just happen 164 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,480 to run out of steam. So I see that a lot, and I 165 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:09,000 definitely see psychics getting involved in cases, contradicting one another, using up resources 166 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:16,240 that may lead nowhere, but here and there, little tiny things happen that 167 00:13:16,399 --> 00:13:20,960 make me think, okay, I'm at least going to stay open now. 168 00:13:20,159 --> 00:13:26,200 I call myself a ghost repellent because they're never there when I'm there. They 169 00:13:26,279 --> 00:13:31,159 sense your skepticism, Doctor Ramplin. Yeah, I was just in a car 170 00:13:31,279 --> 00:13:35,559 ferry that I had my own little cabin that was going across Lake Michigan four 171 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:39,759 hours and the haunted cabins right next door. How high is it for the 172 00:13:39,799 --> 00:13:46,639 ghost to walk through the wall and say hello, honestly and to say, 173 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:56,360 I understand your skeptic. So I'm willing to listen because there have been some 174 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:00,000 weird things, and I'll tell you what an example, and I'd probably say 175 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:05,399 one in Savannah there was a case where a woman was murdered, raped, 176 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,919 and murder and stuffed in a closet in this building. The guy who was 177 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:13,159 a janitor who ran the janitorial staff in the building, was in there one 178 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:18,960 day when he was shining a black top table and he saw an image in 179 00:14:20,039 --> 00:14:22,720 the table and he looked up and this ghost was pointing to the table, 180 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,879 and he remembered that one of his staff at the time was a guy who 181 00:14:26,919 --> 00:14:31,879 always wore a black shirt. And so he told polices. It turns out 182 00:14:31,039 --> 00:14:35,080 that's the guy who raped and killed her, and that got into court. 183 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:41,840 That got into court. Wow, So was the perpetrator the offender found guilty? 184 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:46,120 Yeah, yes, he was based on additional information that they were able 185 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:52,399 to obtain an additional information, but the start of it was supposedly a ghost 186 00:14:52,799 --> 00:14:56,399 telling the guy and he was allowed to say it in court. Canada. 187 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:03,200 Interesting, wo Canada. Anything goes up there, and there have been some 188 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:07,000 in the States. There have been dreams, there have been I love remote 189 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,519 viewing. I don't think of that as paranormal, but I think remote viewing 190 00:15:09,759 --> 00:15:15,440 that the US Army used for decades is very interesting. Can you explain, 191 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,720 I don't know what that means. Remote viewing is the idea of being able 192 00:15:18,759 --> 00:15:24,720 to somehow connect with I don't know, some psychic plane where you can see. 193 00:15:26,039 --> 00:15:28,480 You send out a person and what's called an outbounder. That person goes 194 00:15:28,559 --> 00:15:33,519 to a site where they can look at a building, or they look at 195 00:15:33,639 --> 00:15:39,399 something that's distinct, and the remote viewer can draw it and then you can 196 00:15:39,399 --> 00:15:43,399 corroborate is this what you saw? Oh wow? Some of the art is 197 00:15:43,519 --> 00:15:48,399 unbelievably specific. And they have found fugitives that way, they have found murder 198 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:52,639 victims that way. There are stories that that's what keeps me in the game. 199 00:15:52,840 --> 00:16:00,919 Folks has worked remote viewing. Remote viewing. The US Army used it 200 00:16:00,159 --> 00:16:04,080 from I can't remember the exact years. But if you're interested. It was 201 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:11,679 a book called I Think Phenomena that documents the entire program where they used these 202 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:18,279 people to find things like drug imports. Once a guy was taken hostage in 203 00:16:18,279 --> 00:16:22,559 another country. He was a high ranking officer. They found him. So 204 00:16:22,679 --> 00:16:26,159 that there are a lot of interesting applications, but it is filled with hotball 205 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:32,919 characters too, There's no doubt about that. How to work? How is 206 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:37,440 this supposed to work? These two the person at the remote location and the 207 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:41,919 person here, do they are we saying they have a connection of a psychic 208 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,360 if you will connection? They do? Do these people know each other? 209 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,600 Are they? They might, but they don't have to. But the person 210 00:16:48,639 --> 00:16:53,799 who in the experiments, the outbounder, would not say where he or she 211 00:16:55,039 --> 00:17:00,399 was going. They would just be at the site. The reviewers would draw 212 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:07,240 what they what was the impressions coming to them, and some were very accurate. 213 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:12,799 And is this happening in real time? Yes, So the outbounder is 214 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,160 at a remote location, and let's say it's four o'clock in the afternoon, 215 00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:25,519 so it's also at the same time in a different distant location. Another person 216 00:17:25,559 --> 00:17:32,920 who's receiving this information is able to accurately convey what the other person in another 217 00:17:33,039 --> 00:17:40,839 state or country or whatever is seeing. Yes, almost like they're connected telepathically. 218 00:17:41,039 --> 00:17:47,759 That's what it seems like. I don't think, but wow, you 219 00:17:47,799 --> 00:17:52,000 should read the army experiments. They're amazing. And then they had to shut 220 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:56,880 it down because taxpayers didn't want them putting money into psychics. They were called 221 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:02,119 psychic spies. Some journalists am in and dismissed the whole thing, and then 222 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:03,799 they had to shut it down, or maybe they didn't, who knows, 223 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:07,799 but they had. They ran it for several decades, and they had some 224 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:11,880 very talented remote viewers, but there have been some people who just go. 225 00:18:11,079 --> 00:18:18,359 First timers can do it. They don't need training remote viewing and this is 226 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:26,480 a cross space but not time. Yes, thank yeah, that's what it 227 00:18:26,599 --> 00:18:30,359 is. Yeah, wow, could it be done? Do you know? 228 00:18:30,079 --> 00:18:33,039 Notice how I'm drilling down here. I'm really curious about this. Could it 229 00:18:33,039 --> 00:18:38,599 be done at a later time as well? Do we know there was a 230 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:45,640 time where they actually one of them and a couple of them were psychically talented 231 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:51,640 and one of them saw into the future something that there was one story and 232 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:55,839 I tell this in my novel because Annie does like remote viewing. Okay, 233 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,960 yeah, it was one story and it's a true story where they were looking 234 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,720 were a fugitive and they thought this guy was in somewhere down south somewhere, 235 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,920 and he was, in fact, I think in Montana. And she was 236 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:11,160 able to say, he's by an Indian burial ground and if you don't get 237 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,480 him, he is about to leave, and she was able to describe the 238 00:19:15,559 --> 00:19:19,599 camp ground that was nearby, and that turned out to be exactly right. 239 00:19:19,759 --> 00:19:23,440 He was just about to leave when they napped him and they found the things 240 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:29,079 that she had described. Very cool, it's cool. I get very cool 241 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:33,240 when I get frustrated with the Colonial Parkway murderers. Psychics is it's always stuff 242 00:19:33,319 --> 00:19:40,480 like I see woods, I see water, and you're like, it's Virginia, 243 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,440 nothing but woods and water. That's like in Gettysburg with the ghost centers 244 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:48,319 that were there in twenty degrees and they feel cold spots like me too, 245 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:56,200 A lot a lot of them. Some of them are my toes. Yeah. 246 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:00,079 I don't know if you're as much of a crime fiction aficionado as I 247 00:20:00,079 --> 00:20:03,319 am in terms of TV series, But what you were saying about view it 248 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:07,599 reminds me of Fringe. Did you ever watch that loved Fringe. I love 249 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:11,680 Fringe. That was great. That was a fabulous series. I love that 250 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:15,119 one. It reminds me a lot because you think he used some of this 251 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:21,720 infringe in Fringe. It's not fiction. Look up. Miss Annie Jacobson was 252 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:23,759 the author. Phenomenon is a book. Is a very thick book. But 253 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:30,079 it's astonishing how this program developed. And there are people out there that when 254 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:33,759 they finally dissolved it, some of the people who were part of the man 255 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:38,920 named Joseph mcmonagle would run sessions teaching people how to do it. He's still 256 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:44,119 around. He's written several books about it, with illustrations showing these are the 257 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,359 things we got. I guess maybe I shouldn't be more skeptical about it. 258 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:52,160 But they did a lot of controlled and corroborated experiments with it. And that's 259 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:56,720 what I mean. You can corroborate if a psychic says to you. I 260 00:20:56,839 --> 00:21:00,200 had one tell me this particular ghost had been there some things in water, 261 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,559 and he wanted me to buy some hip boots to go get it. And 262 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,799 I said, when you give me the location, I'll buy the boots. 263 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:15,519 Why do we need this elaborate framework, Why don't you just tell me where 264 00:21:15,519 --> 00:21:18,519 it is and then already get it easy easy. They saw woods and they 265 00:21:18,519 --> 00:21:26,079 saw water. Always woods of water, always woods and water. Yeah, 266 00:21:26,319 --> 00:21:30,279 you're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after this word from 267 00:21:30,279 --> 00:21:42,640 our sponsors. We're back here at Mind over Murder. You'd said that you 268 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:47,039 like friends. You're alluded to medium earlier, and I know that you've written 269 00:21:47,039 --> 00:21:52,079 books about CSI and criminal minds and the use of forensic psychology there. When 270 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:56,119 you watch TV series like this, are you able to turn off your training 271 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,960 and watch it for enjoyment or are you constantly scrutinizing are they getting it right? 272 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,799 Are they getting it right? When I wrote The Forensic Psychology of Criminal 273 00:22:03,839 --> 00:22:07,400 Minds that that was a contracted book and they weren't getting it right. And 274 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:12,160 I wrote the book saying, here's the real story of the FBI's behavioral science, 275 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,039 Jana, here's the real stuff, because I've worked with some of the 276 00:22:15,279 --> 00:22:19,160 early guys. I worked with wrestler in Douglas and some of the first generation 277 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:23,960 and second generation profilers. So the book was really about here's a case. 278 00:22:25,319 --> 00:22:27,839 It's based on this true case. Here's where they twist it. But you 279 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:33,039 know what They don't have a private plane taking half a dozen profilers here and 280 00:22:33,079 --> 00:22:36,920 there, Jim takeover cases. They don't. There's any number of things they 281 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,240 don't actually do. And I'll say that in the book. But still, 282 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:45,359 if the whole first year was based on actual cases, and I knew what 283 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,200 the cases were, so I would then say, here's how the case really 284 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,240 worked out. It's TV, and recognize that. But sometimes I can't keep 285 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:56,880 watching, and I can't keep watching that show. Particularly, do you find 286 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:02,279 yourself growing socks and other things at the television. No, I get on 287 00:23:02,319 --> 00:23:06,559 the computer and write my own stuff. I just don't do it. I 288 00:23:06,599 --> 00:23:11,599 think there was another one about a jury consultant bully. One episode. I 289 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:18,160 was out, this is bull fill in the blank here. Yeah, Nope. 290 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:25,359 The media is the media is glutted both with crime fiction but also true 291 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:30,279 crime. Do you feel like the media plays a role or how much of 292 00:23:30,279 --> 00:23:36,000 a role do you think the media plays in perpetuating like misguided theories or untruths 293 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:41,920 about cases. Anytime a production company is making a choice about how to present 294 00:23:41,079 --> 00:23:48,359 a story, they are affecting viewers. One of the things that bother me 295 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:53,160 about all the serial killer stuff out there is they're doing the same dozen over 296 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:57,480 and over. Leads to the idea that first of all, the serial killer 297 00:23:57,599 --> 00:24:00,839 is a type of offender when it isn't. It's just a description of the 298 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:07,319 behavior, and that these represent the sum total of serial killers. There's that 299 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:11,759 with SIATI again, what is all there is? And so then people come 300 00:24:11,759 --> 00:24:15,319 to me with these questions thinking, oh, to serial killers, do this? 301 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,200 To serial killers? To that, Like, we have over five thousand 302 00:24:18,279 --> 00:24:23,640 documented around the world. I can't give you a general response to that because 303 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:29,720 there are so many. There's so much diversity in these cases and their developmental 304 00:24:29,759 --> 00:24:33,799 trajectory and their motivations and their methods. Do they all have a victim type? 305 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:40,480 No? You know, there's so many myths perpetuated from the media emphasizing 306 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,880 certain types, and they're emphasizing the ones that they know are going to get 307 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,799 viewers. That's what they do. They're not going to pick a serial killer 308 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,880 to do a documentary on who's boring, right, They're going to do the 309 00:24:52,920 --> 00:25:02,039 flashy ones. But they convey the impression that this is total serial killers. 310 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:07,519 And I get that when I start teaching my class. Here's twenty things you 311 00:25:07,559 --> 00:25:11,640 think you know about serial killers that you don't. But that's mostly and it's 312 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:18,000 not just fictional media or documentaries, as news reporters and fiction writers novelists will 313 00:25:18,079 --> 00:25:22,599 perpetuate those things from one thing to another. Criminal justice textbooks do as well. 314 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,039 There was one time, and I know the profiler who made up the 315 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,799 statistic that they're thirty five to fifty serial killers operating in America at any given 316 00:25:30,839 --> 00:25:37,039 time. He made that up to get money from Congress for programs that yes 317 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,680 he did, yes, yeah he told me. Did that shows up in 318 00:25:40,839 --> 00:25:45,359 criminology texts And I still hear people saying that, like that was a total 319 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:52,559 fabrication. Wow, okay, but it crosses over into being a reference point. 320 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:59,960 Yes, So yeah. Media definitely influences us into thinking that things are 321 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,279 a certain way, and we forget it's an entertainment. Then they are making 322 00:26:04,279 --> 00:26:11,240 their decisions based on wanting audience share, and they're going to clip stories and 323 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:18,160 simplify stories because they want viewers to have satisfaction at the end. That becomes 324 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:23,519 a problem when viewers don't go look for more information because they tend not to. 325 00:26:23,839 --> 00:26:27,200 Because there ever been a documentary or a show that you've been a part 326 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,160 of that once you got involved, you were like, I really don't like 327 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:34,119 the way they're portraying this, or I don't like they don't care what I 328 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:40,079 say. I've been a consultant on several shows. I was fired off one 329 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,880 for telling them they couldn't do a thing with a dead body that they wanted 330 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:47,119 to do. And I said that that's not the way soil works, that's 331 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:51,440 not the way decomposition works. But I can give you an alternate scenario to 332 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:56,079 help with your plot that would work. No, this is flash here and 333 00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:00,359 so thanks very much, we don't want you anymore. Wow. And did 334 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,440 you really get fired I did? Yeah? Wow. Were there others where 335 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:10,200 you wasn't used on the rest of the show? Yeah, same thing, 336 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,400 isn't it? But I gave them a way to do what they wanted to 337 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:18,039 do that would have been scientifically correct, but they decided who can actually, 338 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:22,960 even though a body has been submerged in water, washed by corners, you 339 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:27,839 can still get a fingerprint off of them, Like no, not after burial 340 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:32,480 for twenty years now. But at the same time, you were offering them 341 00:27:32,799 --> 00:27:37,240 a scientific way to move their story forward and they just weren't having it. 342 00:27:37,279 --> 00:27:41,440 But even the writer of the show wanted to do that. The producers did 343 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,559 not. I suppish you would to throw anybody under the bus by telling us 344 00:27:45,599 --> 00:27:51,559 what you think. So but still still work for people. And I want 345 00:27:51,599 --> 00:27:55,519 to be sure. I noticed you were very circumspect a moment ago too when 346 00:27:55,519 --> 00:28:00,240 you said this person that created this fictional thirty five to fifty serial killers operating 347 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:06,039 in the United States. Yeah, at anything being said. Let me just 348 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,400 I do want to give kudos to the team that worked with me in the 349 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:15,440 BTK because, yeah, they listened constantly. They didn't always. There are 350 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,039 a couple of things I said, please don't use this, and they did 351 00:28:18,759 --> 00:28:22,440 out of four hours. That's not bad. And they were constantly asking me 352 00:28:22,599 --> 00:28:29,440 about different people that we could use being introduced to them, how to frame 353 00:28:29,519 --> 00:28:33,039 this. So there are teams that really are trying to get it right. 354 00:28:33,079 --> 00:28:37,000 It's just that when you take the totality of true crime programming, and there've 355 00:28:37,039 --> 00:28:41,200 been some great ones, by the way, I think the one that don't 356 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:48,599 f with cats. There's another amateur team, but they brought in skills that 357 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,119 helped them do things the cops not only couldn't do, but wouldn't do, 358 00:28:52,319 --> 00:28:59,000 and they were able to assist in a way that you don't ordinarily see. 359 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:03,599 So that's a little different from the Whizioti thing I've talked about with true crime 360 00:29:03,839 --> 00:29:08,480 amateurs because they were amateurs, but they contributed because they had a skill set 361 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:14,519 that was needed in that particular case. And that was a great documentary. 362 00:29:14,799 --> 00:29:18,440 Yeah, it's hard to watch, but it was well put together. And 363 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:23,440 so they're out there. But you take the totality of documentaries and true crime 364 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:30,799 and also fictional crime scripted shows, and there's certainly impressions being made that do 365 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,720 give the wrong idea that things are simple, that we can solve these easily, 366 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:41,480 that all we need is genetic DNA genealogy will be able to solve everything. 367 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,799 I've heard people say Sharia killers are a thing of the past because I 368 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:51,079 have solved everything. They're completely wrong about that. And yet I've heard it 369 00:29:51,119 --> 00:29:56,680 said by professionals in this field, and they're completely wrong about that. You've 370 00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,279 also had got two hundred and fifty thousand cold case homicides to work backwards through, 371 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,599 exactly, so we have a lot of work before us, a lot 372 00:30:03,599 --> 00:30:08,079 of work. By the way, you just mentioned Whizziotti is all there is 373 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,279 just for the benefit of someone who's listening to this episode, who didn't listen 374 00:30:12,279 --> 00:30:18,400 to the last episode? Explain what is all there is again? Okay. 375 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:25,359 Whizziotti is a term coined by the foremost cognitive psychologist Daniel Kneman in his book 376 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:30,519 On Our Thinking Processes, and it is a cognitive error that is the amateurst 377 00:30:30,559 --> 00:30:34,319 loose and police officers, any investigators, could be prone to in virtue of 378 00:30:34,359 --> 00:30:38,400 the way the human brain operates. But the idea is that you've collected a 379 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:45,200 series of facts about a case and the feeling is that's all they're ever going 380 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,440 to be, and so now you have the truth about the case, but 381 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:53,839 you're not open to future discoveries that might shift the narrative, change the narrative. 382 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:59,400 And we need to be open. We need to drop the Whizziotti idea 383 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:04,160 and keep even though we think we're building case as well, always be aware 384 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,839 that there might be something we don't know that is going to change it dramatically. 385 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,160 And we've had cases like that, a lot of them, actually, 386 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,799 and we all do a lot of that right now with documentaries that are going 387 00:31:18,799 --> 00:31:22,799 back to change the narrative and people, and what we're finding is people who 388 00:31:22,799 --> 00:31:29,319 are still stuck on the old narratives. Refuse to entertain that this could be 389 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,559 changed at all. That's whizziety. That's a problem, and we all do 390 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:40,119 it in our lives from time to time, because permanence is security, it's 391 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:44,920 predictability, it's a sense of control. If I know exactly what happened in 392 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,359 a case, no one can change that. I can predict everything about it. 393 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:53,000 I control it. That's our tendency because it makes us feel like we're 394 00:31:53,039 --> 00:32:00,799 not thrown into chaos. There's some degree of comfort and control and understanding of 395 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:05,319 these deep, dark, terrible things that happened. And for those who have 396 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:10,720 a high need preclosure, which there as a personality trait like cops like cops, 397 00:32:10,839 --> 00:32:15,440 not all cops because don't but they, but people with high need proclosure 398 00:32:15,519 --> 00:32:21,200 tend to be attracted to law enforcement types of professions where it's all feels pretty 399 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,559 black and white. They are prone to this, and that becomes a problem 400 00:32:24,599 --> 00:32:30,359 because they may chase down leads they're absolutely certain about and they're wrong. Gut 401 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:35,279 instinct, by the way, this idea that your gut neveralized is totally off, 402 00:32:35,799 --> 00:32:40,039 totally off, and that is a watchword that cops live by. Gut 403 00:32:40,039 --> 00:32:46,160 instinct is just you. You've come into a familiar scenario. You recognize it 404 00:32:46,319 --> 00:32:51,119 modily and it feels right. So it is right, but you could that 405 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,160 can be to your detriment. It could even lead you to your death if 406 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,880 you really trust your gut all the time and think it's never wrong, because 407 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,480 it can be wrong. What is all there is? And it's one of 408 00:33:00,519 --> 00:33:05,640 the pitfalls that we see in investigations. Yeah, I wish he would have 409 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:10,200 come up with a better name than like confirmation bias. It says what it 410 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:15,160 is. It's very easy to remember. People get it, but WHIZIATI not 411 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,640 so much. I wish he would have, but it's so perfect and I've 412 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:22,039 searched for it for a long time. Like I talked with cops and they 413 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,359 think they have all the facts and then something comes along and it just throws 414 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:29,359 everything up. I mean, there was a great case I think it was 415 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:35,000 might have been Indiana where cops got called into this double homicide scene of a 416 00:33:35,039 --> 00:33:39,200 man and intruder into a house who had murdered the guy's wife with a hammer 417 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:43,160 that he had picked up off of the kitchen table. He'd murder the hammer. 418 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,880 So it's the mark Winger case. So Mark Winger comes in and shoots 419 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:51,400 him and calls the cops and turns out there was a setup. It was 420 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:55,039 a setup by Mark Winger because he knew he could get the guy to the 421 00:33:55,079 --> 00:33:59,680 house. It's a complagated case, but you get the guy to the house 422 00:34:00,119 --> 00:34:04,680 and then tell that start and the most experienced cops bought it. He got 423 00:34:04,799 --> 00:34:10,239 victim fund money. The rookie questioned it said, this doesn't make sense that 424 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:14,920 his guard dog was in the garage. It doesn't make sense that he's asking 425 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:16,639 for the pista back. It doesn't make sense. Let's just look at their 426 00:34:16,639 --> 00:34:22,079 phone records. And he was ordered not to do any investigations. Wow. 427 00:34:23,119 --> 00:34:27,960 His partner, the experienced one, said all right, I'm just gonna sit 428 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,679 and listen to you. I think you're totally wrong, you're overthinking, but 429 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:32,920 I'm just gonna listen to you. And as the rookie made his case, 430 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:39,519 they started going, oh, you know, the kids doubt that Mark Winger 431 00:34:39,679 --> 00:34:44,840 wasn't back the murderer of both people. Wow, and he was having an 432 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:49,679 affair. So you throw that new fact into things at change the case entirely. 433 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,920 What are the big motivators again in murder it's money, sex, and 434 00:34:53,519 --> 00:34:59,920 power. I think of the three bah power definitely control power. Yeah, 435 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:05,039 this has at least two of those, yeah, maybe three, probably three. 436 00:35:05,079 --> 00:35:08,880 Actually he got victims yet, got victims spun. Yeah, and at 437 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:15,440 life insurance he was. If someone amateur or professional sets out to investigate a 438 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:20,239 case, what are some of the things that you would caution them about to 439 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:24,280 avoid falling into that trap, the confirmation bias trap, the WISIATI trap. 440 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,559 What would you tell people, here's what you need to do so that you 441 00:35:28,679 --> 00:35:32,760 don't fall into that. There are trainings for specifically for this, for police 442 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:39,679 officers that were devised buy police officers who've already been down that road. I 443 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:44,880 think any department ought to put those trainings into effect, even though they will 444 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,760 get resistance. When I've done police trainings, I get resistance to some of 445 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:52,960 these ideas, but they'll also get some who will listen. And that's what 446 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:57,400 we need. People who will listen and then become mindful of their tendencies. 447 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,519 If my tendency is to want to close a case fast, get the answers, 448 00:36:01,639 --> 00:36:06,119 be done, not be second guests. I need somebody to remind me 449 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:10,039 that I'm doing that. Yes, it's got strengths. That approach. It 450 00:36:10,119 --> 00:36:16,119 can close cases fast, but it's got weaknesses too, and that person needs 451 00:36:16,119 --> 00:36:21,480 to be reminded of the weaknesses. One of the things that they can do 452 00:36:21,679 --> 00:36:25,119 is when the approach a case, they'll have a hypothesis going. They should 453 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:30,599 work an alternate hypothesis too, to see how any given fact might be interpreted 454 00:36:30,639 --> 00:36:37,239 in a different scenario. So they should always stay open to those possibilities until 455 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:42,519 such time as they get such an abundance of evidence that they know which way 456 00:36:42,519 --> 00:36:45,199 they want to go. But even you still need to stay open because a 457 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:52,679 future thing. Somebody who broke up with her boyfriend now has new information never 458 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,280 got out there before. Now she's mad and she's going to tell the tale 459 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:59,639 of what she knows. And whoa is that ever going to make all the 460 00:36:59,639 --> 00:37:04,000 difference. We have to always stay open to something new that could happen. 461 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,559 I was gonna say, if you are someone like us who have been living 462 00:37:07,599 --> 00:37:10,920 with this case for so long that we know every single facet in detail of 463 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:16,400 it, is there a way that we can readjust our thinking to look at 464 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:21,119 all aspects of the case and new. Is there a way to retrain your 465 00:37:21,159 --> 00:37:27,880 brain to look at the facts again, I'm I'm curious you've already been talking 466 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,679 about that, because I know Bill was saying, here's how he had always 467 00:37:31,679 --> 00:37:36,440 been talking about on the past year. He's relooked at some of that. 468 00:37:36,559 --> 00:37:38,880 I think it's always good. But what I did when I approached it was 469 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:45,280 looked at several different people's ideas about it. I watched the Oxygen thing, 470 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:49,000 I read several of the books that have been put out there and thought, 471 00:37:49,199 --> 00:37:52,639 which of these things makes sense and which of these things have flaws, Like 472 00:37:52,679 --> 00:37:58,639 I know, one book really hung their case on an FBI profiler who was 473 00:37:58,679 --> 00:38:02,440 operating out of nineteen nineties thinking correct, which is really old fashioned. And 474 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,320 I thought, right off the bat, okay, yeah, you're kind of 475 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,480 would buy your profile or friend. But you know what, that's stuff that 476 00:38:09,039 --> 00:38:15,400 we've moved past. Yes, and even our investigators have said a lot of 477 00:38:15,639 --> 00:38:22,559 assumptions that were made about types of victims and narrowly defining how what I said 478 00:38:22,679 --> 00:38:27,199 was serial killer is not a type of offender. People think that they share 479 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:30,440 all the same traits and background and they all had head injuries and abuse, 480 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:35,719 and and that is far from the truth. We can't even begin to figure 481 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:37,960 out five thousand people. What they all have in common one thing, they've 482 00:38:38,039 --> 00:38:43,719 killed at least two people on two different occasions. That's a behavioral description. 483 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:49,239 But you can have someone who's sexually compelled, so they're addicted to murdering, 484 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:54,079 and that is more the typical serial killer that we see versus someone like who 485 00:38:54,199 --> 00:38:59,639 kills two people on two separate nights through a robbery. They're not necessarily going 486 00:38:59,679 --> 00:39:02,920 to kill again. They just those are the circumstances. They're not addicted to 487 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:08,199 it. There's no real link except that this person killed once and then killed 488 00:39:08,199 --> 00:39:14,000 again to get money. A spree killer is a different kind of individual than 489 00:39:14,039 --> 00:39:17,280 a serial killer. For example, if they murder family and then they take 490 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,920 off on the road and they kill somebody to get a car and then they 491 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:27,599 kill somebody. So that's very different from a sexually compelled serial killer who's targeting 492 00:39:27,679 --> 00:39:32,159 victims and stalking them and looking for some kind of sexual gratification. So there's 493 00:39:32,159 --> 00:39:37,199 a lot of different types out there. A repeat offender who I would say 494 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:43,800 does not have the propensity to become a serial killer would be like that idea 495 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:47,000 of Gary Gilmour is a good example. If you remember back to those days 496 00:39:47,559 --> 00:39:52,199 that's what he did. He wanted money to buy his girlfriend something. He 497 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:53,559 wanted a big shinny chuck. He was not going to be able to get 498 00:39:53,599 --> 00:39:57,280 that. He just decided to kill somebody to get money, and then he 499 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:01,000 killed somebody else the next night. That's not really serial killer territory. Even 500 00:40:01,039 --> 00:40:06,880 though he qualifies. Or for example, an accomplice to the serial killer who 501 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:13,840 does commit several murders under the leveraging of the serial killer, he qualifies, 502 00:40:14,199 --> 00:40:17,480 but he doesn't have any of the motivational spectrum of the serial killer. So 503 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:22,760 he's a different he or she is a different type of person. Fascinating although 504 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:27,920 you're saying he or she, Although it is true that the vast majority of 505 00:40:28,039 --> 00:40:31,239 people that are repeat offenders of this type are male, as that fair. 506 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:35,840 Yeah, And less they're in teams, then you have more female participation, 507 00:40:36,159 --> 00:40:37,920 and sometimes it female is the leader of the team, and sometimes it's all 508 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:44,800 female teams. There's more females than people realize, because again that myth out 509 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,559 there that there are very few, if any, female serial killers. In 510 00:40:47,599 --> 00:40:52,920 fact, there are not only are there, there are sexual serial killers who 511 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:59,360 are female. I've heard sexologists say that's not possible, but those are male 512 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:06,920 sexology just so women know better. Wow. Yeah, they're out there, 513 00:41:07,159 --> 00:41:12,199 but you have to be in a position to study the cases and see. 514 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:17,119 If you're only watching documentaries and TV or reading a few true crime books, 515 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:24,440 you won't see the variation across this landscape called serial murder. Somehow, I'm 516 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:31,039 still stuck on Thelma and Louise and it's just not working for me. But 517 00:41:31,199 --> 00:41:35,920 it obviously does happen, It has happened, and it will happen again. 518 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,599 Yes, if I was too, For example, I was an incoming student 519 00:41:39,639 --> 00:41:43,960 to one of your classes, what are the books that you would recommend I, 520 00:41:44,079 --> 00:41:46,800 as an incoming student read other than yours. It depends on which class 521 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:51,800 you're going to take forensic psychology. And let's say, for example, I'm 522 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,960 this year in my graduate class, I'm going to have them read the Caitlin 523 00:41:57,079 --> 00:42:01,239 Rother's book on Rebecca Zahow. Oh, okays, what a bizarre case that 524 00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:05,599 is. It's a lot more bizarre than it's been shown that the death on 525 00:42:05,679 --> 00:42:10,960 Ocean Avenue with death and gathered a lot more facts than you typically see. 526 00:42:12,039 --> 00:42:15,039 So I'm just going to put it out there for the students to work on 527 00:42:15,119 --> 00:42:19,679 and see. What they make of the case as a psychological autopsy very cooling. 528 00:42:20,159 --> 00:42:22,480 That's an expression, by the way, you've used twice now which I 529 00:42:22,519 --> 00:42:29,239 found fascinating. What's a psychological autopsy mean? In the cases where a death 530 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:34,079 is ambiguous, Now we're manner of death is a natural accident, suicide, 531 00:42:34,119 --> 00:42:37,719 homicide, or undetermined And the undetermined category it simply could be that you just 532 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:42,519 don't have enough information or that it's ambiguous and it can go more than one 533 00:42:42,599 --> 00:42:45,440 way and you don't really know what to do with it. Psychological factors can 534 00:42:45,599 --> 00:42:51,480 sometimes tip the balance toward one or the other. So like a suicide that 535 00:42:51,519 --> 00:42:54,400 you think as a suicide could actually be a staged It could be a homicide 536 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:59,960 stage as a suicide. So you have to be pretty proficient at reading behavior 537 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:06,400 at the scene that's psychological. A psychological autopsy would often look a lot more 538 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:12,559 deeply into victimology than police officers will do, and using what experts know clinically 539 00:43:12,639 --> 00:43:17,320 about people in terms of the questioning of relatives and friends and associates of this 540 00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:22,760 person their mental state. We're looking at trying to figure out what could have 541 00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:27,159 happened here, what's more likely to have happened here so that the coroner or 542 00:43:27,199 --> 00:43:31,119 a medical examiner can make the determination. That's really fascinating. So you're going 543 00:43:31,159 --> 00:43:35,599 to have your students read that one Jeff on Ocean Avenue also having to read 544 00:43:35,599 --> 00:43:39,400 The Psychopath Whisperer by Kent Keel, who's one of the world's leading experts on 545 00:43:39,559 --> 00:43:46,719 psychopaths and the neuroscience behard. He takes his traveling MRI machine into prisons to 546 00:43:47,039 --> 00:43:52,400 show us and has shown us that the psychopaths brain is different. So his 547 00:43:52,559 --> 00:43:57,039 book goes into how did that develop, what is a psychopath? How do 548 00:43:57,079 --> 00:44:00,639 you work with psychopaths, etc. Having them read that, or I might 549 00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:06,960 have them read something from Robert Hare, also another psychopath expert. I think 550 00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:13,000 the one on Ted Bundy I have used often. Al Carlyle's the report that 551 00:44:13,079 --> 00:44:17,480 he did when he was the Utah prison psychologist and he was tasked with deciding 552 00:44:17,639 --> 00:44:22,920 if Bundy and this is before they knew who Bundy was. They had grabbed 553 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:28,360 him for burglary and attempted abduction, and Carlyle was tasked with deciding whether he 554 00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:32,480 might be a future danger. So he went around talking to people and compiling 555 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:37,480 a report for the court and said Yeah, I think this guy's a liar, 556 00:44:37,559 --> 00:44:40,559 quite the manipulator. Even though I really liked him, He's quite the 557 00:44:40,599 --> 00:44:45,000 manipulator. And I think so. He published part of his report and I 558 00:44:45,079 --> 00:44:50,360 often will use that in my classes for students to see an assessment on someone 559 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,960 that they recognize before anyone knew he was a serial killer. That's a great 560 00:44:54,159 --> 00:44:58,280 that's a great book. I like that one. Wow. Oh, and 561 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:02,239 that's al Carlyle. We're gonna just put together a little Doctor Ramslin recommends reading 562 00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:06,400 list here. We're gonna put it up on our Facebook page. This is 563 00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,199 awesome. To wrap up, go ahead and just remind us the name of 564 00:45:09,199 --> 00:45:13,920 your upcoming book about your new series. Tell us a little bit about that, 565 00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:15,920 and then what is your most recent book that people can get from, 566 00:45:16,039 --> 00:45:21,159 say Barnes and Noble or Amazon. The most recent book is How to Catch 567 00:45:21,159 --> 00:45:24,079 a Killer, which came out in twenty twenty, and that's thirty cases of 568 00:45:24,119 --> 00:45:30,159 the capture of serial killers and how it was done. And then the series 569 00:45:30,679 --> 00:45:34,760 is the Nutcrackers series because they take on hard nuts to crack. That's my 570 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,960 Auntie Hunters series. The first one will be out in August. I scream 571 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:46,039 Man, I scream Man. That is about human trafficking and a juvenile detention 572 00:45:46,079 --> 00:45:54,239 facility by sadistic corrupt politicians. And this is you transitioning over to fictional works 573 00:45:54,239 --> 00:46:00,920 based, although I always use actual cases and I put my fictional twist to 574 00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,920 it. But yeah, Annie Hunter is I guess my altar personality. I 575 00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:15,039 would say psychologist who runs an investigation agency out of the outer banks. Yeah, 576 00:46:15,079 --> 00:46:19,639 that's fantastic. Thank you so much for joining us. This has been 577 00:46:19,639 --> 00:46:22,480 a thrill for both of us. We really enjoyed talking to you today. 578 00:46:22,039 --> 00:46:24,920 Me too. I can't wait to see you guys. Mister Bannah, Yes, 579 00:46:25,199 --> 00:46:28,920 we are very much looking forward to it. We'll look forward to it. 580 00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,320 Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. 581 00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:35,719 That's going to do it for this episode of Mind Over Murder. We'll 582 00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:49,639 see you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 583 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:54,599 Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dewey. Our 584 00:46:54,679 --> 00:47:00,559 logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McCloud. 585 00:47:00,119 --> 00:47:06,480 Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. You can follow 586 00:47:06,559 --> 00:47:09,639 us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page 587 00:47:09,639 --> 00:47:15,000 on the Colonial Parkway murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill 588 00:47:15,079 --> 00:47:20,199 Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas. Five six. Thank you for listening to 589 00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:21,519 Mind Over Murder.